Blount-Ayala
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
The Noel altar tomb
"John Higgins" wrote:
<
< With respect to your other note, I suspect that the altar tomb in the
church
< in Old Dalby is simply in error with respect to the maiden name of
< Elizabeth. Or perhaps the Peryent name was just considered more
notable
< than the Hopton name. I can find no indication that Elizabeth
married a
< third time, to a Peryent or anyone else.
Dear John ~
The altar tomb at Old Dalby is for Andrew Noel, Esquire (died 1562),
and it mentions his two wives, Dorothy (stated to be deceased), and
Dame Elizabeth Peryent (stated to be then living). The word "dame"
means that Elizabeth was the wife of a knight. Since Andrew Noel was
merely an esquire, this means that Elizabeth was previously the wife of
a knight named Peryent. As you yourself have noted, Elizaberth was in
fact previously the wife of a knight named John Peryent. Mystery is
solved.
The word "dame" is the indication of Elizabeth's prior marriage. The
name Peryent was not her maiden name at all, but her previous married
name. In this period, married women could use their maiden name, or
their previous married name in place of their maiden name, if they so
chose. This custom has confused many posters.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
<
< With respect to your other note, I suspect that the altar tomb in the
church
< in Old Dalby is simply in error with respect to the maiden name of
< Elizabeth. Or perhaps the Peryent name was just considered more
notable
< than the Hopton name. I can find no indication that Elizabeth
married a
< third time, to a Peryent or anyone else.
Dear John ~
The altar tomb at Old Dalby is for Andrew Noel, Esquire (died 1562),
and it mentions his two wives, Dorothy (stated to be deceased), and
Dame Elizabeth Peryent (stated to be then living). The word "dame"
means that Elizabeth was the wife of a knight. Since Andrew Noel was
merely an esquire, this means that Elizabeth was previously the wife of
a knight named Peryent. As you yourself have noted, Elizaberth was in
fact previously the wife of a knight named John Peryent. Mystery is
solved.
The word "dame" is the indication of Elizabeth's prior marriage. The
name Peryent was not her maiden name at all, but her previous married
name. In this period, married women could use their maiden name, or
their previous married name in place of their maiden name, if they so
chose. This custom has confused many posters.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
John Brandon
Re: What this list is - on "insularity"
Hmmm. You and Tony seem to be at the extreme of such things. As
Leslie noted today, he only has one gateway. I have three proved lines
(with four other possibilities). Even Gary Boyd Roberts himself only
has two (Ligon and Clarke). I suspect all of us, with the possible
exception of Leslie, have approximately the same amount of colonial
ancestry (the most recent arrival I know of in my own ancestry was from
Germany in the 1790s).
I think it must be somewhat unusual for an American to have more than
four or five gateways.
In order to test my impression that most Americans (even those with
extensive colonial ancestry) usually only have four or five gateways
(at most), I went to Warg's interesting page on ancestry of those he
classifies as "other" (i.e., not royal personages or elected
officials). Most of these are celebrities, athletes, or notorious
criminals. See http://www.wargs.com/other/ .
I only had time to check the entries through "J," but of the most
well-documented/ fullest ahnentafels (those of Halle Berry, Bret Boone,
Mary Chapin Carpenter, Dick Clark, Ted Danson, Mark Felt, Bill Gates,
Paris Hilton, and Florence Foster Jenkins), Bret Boone was the
hands-down winner with 7 royal gateways. The next highest was Ted
Danson with four. Several had no royal gateways.
Therefore I think my statement was accurate for the most part.
__________
Halle Berry:
--NONE
Bret Boone:
--William Sargent
--Mrs. Agnes Harris Spencer Edwards
--Thomas Yale
--Gov. William Leete
--Robert Abell (questionable)
--Griffith Bowen
--Mrs. Margaret Fleming Bowen
Mary Chapin Carpenter:
--NONE
Dick Clark:
--NONE
Ted Danson:
--Mrs. Alice Freeman Thompson Parke
--Mrs. Anne Marbury Hutchinson
--Mrs. Muriel Gurdon Saltonstall
--Richard Saltonstall
Mark Felt:
--Mrs. Alice Freeman Thompson Parke
Bill Gates:
--Samuel Appleton
--Mrs. Judith Everard Appleton
Paris Hilton
--Gerard Fowke
--Griffith Bowen
--Mrs. Margaret Fleming Bowen
Florence Foster Jenkins
--Mrs. Jane Lawrence Giddings
-
Gjest
Re: Medieval records in England
In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:12:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
lbhansen9@yahoo.com writes:
From reading recent posts it sounds like I may be out of luck trying to
determine who Elizabeth's husband may be and how he may connect to the earlier
Piddingtons. Is there a good place for me to look beyond parish registers and
wills?
The A2A site is here, you can search on Piddington or Cuddington or
combinations of things
_http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp_
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
I found two items for Piddington of Cuddington but they weren't terribly
helpful, being after the time period you are searching. But then, you have
information on a lot more people than the few you posted.
Will Johnson
lbhansen9@yahoo.com writes:
From reading recent posts it sounds like I may be out of luck trying to
determine who Elizabeth's husband may be and how he may connect to the earlier
Piddingtons. Is there a good place for me to look beyond parish registers and
wills?
The A2A site is here, you can search on Piddington or Cuddington or
combinations of things
_http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp_
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
I found two items for Piddington of Cuddington but they weren't terribly
helpful, being after the time period you are searching. But then, you have
information on a lot more people than the few you posted.
Will Johnson
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: What this list is - on "insularity"
Thinking it over, John, I tend to agree with you. When I said a few days
ago that there were others out there with many many with numerous
royal/ancient gateways (12-15 or so) I was thinking of the late Walter
Lee Sheppard, FASG. who also had quite along list. But, again
reconsidering, this seems to be most unusual - probably atypical. I
suspect though that the total has is to some large extent correlated to
"degrees- of comprehensiveness" [if you will] of traced ancestry - also,
it must be confessed, some "dumb luck".
Regards,
Tony
In order to test my impression that most Americans (even those with
extensive colonial ancestry) usually only have four or five gateways
(at most), I went to Warg's interesting page on ancestry of those he
classifies as "other" (i.e., not royal personages or elected
officials). Most of these are celebrities, athletes, or notorious
criminals. See http://www.wargs.com/other/ .
I only had time to check the entries through "J," but of the most
well-documented/ fullest ahnentafels (those of Halle Berry, Bret
Boone,
Mary Chapin Carpenter, Dick Clark, Ted Danson, Mark Felt, Bill Gates,
Paris Hilton, and Florence Foster Jenkins), Bret Boone was the
hands-down winner with 7 royal gateways. The next highest was Ted
Danson with four. Several had no royal gateways.
Therefore I think my statement was accurate for the most part.
__________
Halle Berry:
--NONE
Bret Boone:
--William Sargent
--Mrs. Agnes Harris Spencer Edwards
--Thomas Yale
--Gov. William Leete
--Robert Abell (questionable)
--Griffith Bowen
--Mrs. Margaret Fleming Bowen
Mary Chapin Carpenter:
--NONE
Dick Clark:
--NONE
Ted Danson:
--Mrs. Alice Freeman Thompson Parke
--Mrs. Anne Marbury Hutchinson
--Mrs. Muriel Gurdon Saltonstall
--Richard Saltonstall
Mark Felt:
--Mrs. Alice Freeman Thompson Parke
Bill Gates:
--Samuel Appleton
--Mrs. Judith Everard Appleton
Paris Hilton
--Gerard Fowke
--Griffith Bowen
--Mrs. Margaret Fleming Bowen
Florence Foster Jenkins
--Mrs. Jane Lawrence Giddings
ago that there were others out there with many many with numerous
royal/ancient gateways (12-15 or so) I was thinking of the late Walter
Lee Sheppard, FASG. who also had quite along list. But, again
reconsidering, this seems to be most unusual - probably atypical. I
suspect though that the total has is to some large extent correlated to
"degrees- of comprehensiveness" [if you will] of traced ancestry - also,
it must be confessed, some "dumb luck".
Regards,
Tony
"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> 05/23/06 09:57AM
Hmmm. You and Tony seem to be at the extreme of such things. As
Leslie noted today, he only has one gateway. I have three proved
lines
(with four other possibilities). Even Gary Boyd Roberts himself
only
has two (Ligon and Clarke). I suspect all of us, with the possible
exception of Leslie, have approximately the same amount of colonial
ancestry (the most recent arrival I know of in my own ancestry was
from
Germany in the 1790s).
I think it must be somewhat unusual for an American to have more
than
four or five gateways.
In order to test my impression that most Americans (even those with
extensive colonial ancestry) usually only have four or five gateways
(at most), I went to Warg's interesting page on ancestry of those he
classifies as "other" (i.e., not royal personages or elected
officials). Most of these are celebrities, athletes, or notorious
criminals. See http://www.wargs.com/other/ .
I only had time to check the entries through "J," but of the most
well-documented/ fullest ahnentafels (those of Halle Berry, Bret
Boone,
Mary Chapin Carpenter, Dick Clark, Ted Danson, Mark Felt, Bill Gates,
Paris Hilton, and Florence Foster Jenkins), Bret Boone was the
hands-down winner with 7 royal gateways. The next highest was Ted
Danson with four. Several had no royal gateways.
Therefore I think my statement was accurate for the most part.
__________
Halle Berry:
--NONE
Bret Boone:
--William Sargent
--Mrs. Agnes Harris Spencer Edwards
--Thomas Yale
--Gov. William Leete
--Robert Abell (questionable)
--Griffith Bowen
--Mrs. Margaret Fleming Bowen
Mary Chapin Carpenter:
--NONE
Dick Clark:
--NONE
Ted Danson:
--Mrs. Alice Freeman Thompson Parke
--Mrs. Anne Marbury Hutchinson
--Mrs. Muriel Gurdon Saltonstall
--Richard Saltonstall
Mark Felt:
--Mrs. Alice Freeman Thompson Parke
Bill Gates:
--Samuel Appleton
--Mrs. Judith Everard Appleton
Paris Hilton
--Gerard Fowke
--Griffith Bowen
--Mrs. Margaret Fleming Bowen
Florence Foster Jenkins
--Mrs. Jane Lawrence Giddings
-
Tony Hoskins
RE: unsubscribe
Hi Ginny,
No, just going on vacation to Kerrville, TX for a week. Didn't want to
overburden my email!
Talk later.
All best,
Tony
Why are you unsubscribing? Has something happened?
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Hoskins [mailto:hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 2:00 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
No, just going on vacation to Kerrville, TX for a week. Didn't want to
overburden my email!
Talk later.
All best,
Tony
"Ginny Wagner" <ginnywagner@austin.rr.com> 05/23/06 12:12PM
Tony,
Why are you unsubscribing? Has something happened?
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Hoskins [mailto:hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us]
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 2:00 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: unsubscribe
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
The Quincy inheritance included many manors scattered throughout
England and Scotland. Elizabeth (de Quincy) Comyn may also have had a
share of Syston, Leicestershire, but I found no reference to it in
Farnham or in a quick check of Feudal Aids. Also, in one of the suits
reported by Farnham, it was Margaret de Quincy who claimed rights to
the lands held by Robert Fitz Roger and his wife, Margery la Zouche,
with no mention of Elizabeth de Quincy.
I believe there is a full record of the division of the Quincy estates
in England which was published by the Camden Society. If you have
access to this series, let us know what you find. Co-heiresses often
divided estates equally, then later horse traded their shares in order
to unite their respective properties under one ownership. Elizabeth de
Quincy may well have had a share of Syston initially, then traded it
for land held by her sisters in Scotland.
DR
In a message dated 5/23/06 1:07:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
At Earl Roger's
death in 1264, Syston passed by inheritance to his two daughters,
Margaret (or Margery) de Quincy, wife of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl
of Derby, and Ellen de Quincy, wife of Sir Alan la Zouche.
Why not Elizabeth (Quincy) Comyn ?
The Quincy inheritance included many manors scattered throughout
England and Scotland. Elizabeth (de Quincy) Comyn may also have had a
share of Syston, Leicestershire, but I found no reference to it in
Farnham or in a quick check of Feudal Aids. Also, in one of the suits
reported by Farnham, it was Margaret de Quincy who claimed rights to
the lands held by Robert Fitz Roger and his wife, Margery la Zouche,
with no mention of Elizabeth de Quincy.
I believe there is a full record of the division of the Quincy estates
in England which was published by the Camden Society. If you have
access to this series, let us know what you find. Co-heiresses often
divided estates equally, then later horse traded their shares in order
to unite their respective properties under one ownership. Elizabeth de
Quincy may well have had a share of Syston initially, then traded it
for land held by her sisters in Scotland.
DR
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Milicent de Cantelowe, widow of Sir Eudes la Zouche, was claiming dower
in 1280 to the part of Syston, Leicestershire held by Ralph de Neville
and his wife, Euphemia de Clavering. This property was evidently the
same property held earlier at Syston by Euphemia's parents, Robert Fitz
Roger and Margery la Zouche. They in turn surely had this property by
grant of Margery's parents, Sir Alan la Zouche and Ellen de Quincy.
How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at Syston
is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that Sir
Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance.
DR
In a message dated 5/23/06 1:07:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Ellen de Quincy's share of Syston was subsequently split into two parts,
one part descending to her son and heir, Sir Roger la Zouche, and thence to
his descendants, the Holand family. The other part of Ellen's share was
evidently settled in marriage c.1265 on Ellen de Quincy's daughter, Margery la
Zouche, and her husband, Robert Fitz Roger.
The documents below make it clear that Ranulph de Neville and his
wife,Euphemia, were married before Michaelmas term, 1280, when Milicent deCantelowe,
widow of Sir Eudes la Zouche, claimed dower against them atSyston. This record
is an addition to Complete Peerage sub Nevilleregarding the date of marriage
for Ranulph and Euphemia.
How can she claim dower if she never had a piece of it to begin with ?
Or should your first statement be redrawn to say it was split into thirds
instead of halves ?
Will
Milicent de Cantelowe, widow of Sir Eudes la Zouche, was claiming dower
in 1280 to the part of Syston, Leicestershire held by Ralph de Neville
and his wife, Euphemia de Clavering. This property was evidently the
same property held earlier at Syston by Euphemia's parents, Robert Fitz
Roger and Margery la Zouche. They in turn surely had this property by
grant of Margery's parents, Sir Alan la Zouche and Ellen de Quincy.
How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at Syston
is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that Sir
Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance.
DR
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/23/06 1:07:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Ellen de Quincy's share of Syston was subsequently split into two parts,
one part descending to her son and heir, Sir Roger la Zouche, and thence to
his descendants, the Holand family. The other part of Ellen's share was
evidently settled in marriage c.1265 on Ellen de Quincy's daughter, Margery la
Zouche, and her husband, Robert Fitz Roger. >>
<<The documents below make it clear that Ranulph de Neville and his
wife,Euphemia, were married before Michaelmas term, 1280, when Milicent deCantelowe,
widow of Sir Eudes la Zouche, claimed dower against them atSyston. This record
is an addition to Complete Peerage sub Nevilleregarding the date of marriage
for Ranulph and Euphemia.>>
How can she claim dower if she never had a piece of it to begin with ?
Or should your first statement be redrawn to say it was split into thirds
instead of halves ?
Will
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Ellen de Quincy's share of Syston was subsequently split into two parts,
one part descending to her son and heir, Sir Roger la Zouche, and thence to
his descendants, the Holand family. The other part of Ellen's share was
evidently settled in marriage c.1265 on Ellen de Quincy's daughter, Margery la
Zouche, and her husband, Robert Fitz Roger. >>
<<The documents below make it clear that Ranulph de Neville and his
wife,Euphemia, were married before Michaelmas term, 1280, when Milicent deCantelowe,
widow of Sir Eudes la Zouche, claimed dower against them atSyston. This record
is an addition to Complete Peerage sub Nevilleregarding the date of marriage
for Ranulph and Euphemia.>>
How can she claim dower if she never had a piece of it to begin with ?
Or should your first statement be redrawn to say it was split into thirds
instead of halves ?
Will
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/23/06 1:07:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Ellen de
Quincy's share of Syston was subsequently split into two parts, one
part descending to her son and heir, Sir Roger la Zouche, and thence to
his descendants, the Holand family. >>
However Roger d.v.m.
So did it descend? Or was it granted, during her lifetime?
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Ellen de
Quincy's share of Syston was subsequently split into two parts, one
part descending to her son and heir, Sir Roger la Zouche, and thence to
his descendants, the Holand family. >>
However Roger d.v.m.
So did it descend? Or was it granted, during her lifetime?
-
Gjest
Re: Help with a 13th century Anglo-French document.
In a message dated 5/23/06 10:34:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bankss@carnegielibrary.org writes:
<< 'E qe toutz contents, debatz e demaundes de terres e de tenementz,
chateaus,
e de tote mainere de trespas, mutz, ou a movoir entre nous,
e Alisaundre des Isles, fiuz Anegus, fiuz Donenald cesserount, e en
quiete reposerount, entre cy e le parlement, establi a Berewyk par le dyt
nostre
seignour le Roy, a la quinzeme apres la sein Michel, prochein avenyr, e
duraunt le dyt parlement.'
'E qe nous dever le devauntdit Alisaundre des ylles, ne froms, ne procuroms
estre fet mal,
ne damage a luy, ne a soens.' >>
There is a free French-to-English block-of-text translation tool here
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
You are going to have to fix a few words above whose spelling has changed.
"E" is most likely "Et" meaning "And"
Toutz should be touts, and some of the "y"s should now be "i" but you should
be able to muddle through it using babelfish.
Will Johnson
bankss@carnegielibrary.org writes:
<< 'E qe toutz contents, debatz e demaundes de terres e de tenementz,
chateaus,
e de tote mainere de trespas, mutz, ou a movoir entre nous,
e Alisaundre des Isles, fiuz Anegus, fiuz Donenald cesserount, e en
quiete reposerount, entre cy e le parlement, establi a Berewyk par le dyt
nostre
seignour le Roy, a la quinzeme apres la sein Michel, prochein avenyr, e
duraunt le dyt parlement.'
'E qe nous dever le devauntdit Alisaundre des ylles, ne froms, ne procuroms
estre fet mal,
ne damage a luy, ne a soens.' >>
There is a free French-to-English block-of-text translation tool here
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
You are going to have to fix a few words above whose spelling has changed.
"E" is most likely "Et" meaning "And"
Toutz should be touts, and some of the "y"s should now be "i" but you should
be able to muddle through it using babelfish.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Help with a 13th century Anglo-French document.
In a message dated 5/23/06 10:34:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bankss@carnegielibrary.org writes:
<< The document is dated 1292 and records that Alexander (MacDougall) of
Argyll, Lord of Lorne,
swears to keep peace in Scotland and the Isles. >>
By the way, this document says that Alexander is son of Angus, son of Donald.
I currently only show one wife to Angus, which is NN Campbell, dau of Colin
Campbell and Aufrick 'of Carrick'
Is this Alexander another son to NN Campbell? It's chronological difficult
to place him as someone who is ordered to "keep his peace" at a maximum age of
19 ...
Perhaps he is a son by an earlier relationship of Angus ?
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
bankss@carnegielibrary.org writes:
<< The document is dated 1292 and records that Alexander (MacDougall) of
Argyll, Lord of Lorne,
swears to keep peace in Scotland and the Isles. >>
By the way, this document says that Alexander is son of Angus, son of Donald.
I currently only show one wife to Angus, which is NN Campbell, dau of Colin
Campbell and Aufrick 'of Carrick'
Is this Alexander another son to NN Campbell? It's chronological difficult
to place him as someone who is ordered to "keep his peace" at a maximum age of
19 ...
Perhaps he is a son by an earlier relationship of Angus ?
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/23/06 1:07:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< At Earl Roger's
death in 1264, Syston passed by inheritance to his two daughters,
Margaret (or Margery) de Quincy, wife of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl
of Derby, and Ellen de Quincy, wife of Sir Alan la Zouche. >>
Why not Elizabeth (Quincy) Comyn ?
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< At Earl Roger's
death in 1264, Syston passed by inheritance to his two daughters,
Margaret (or Margery) de Quincy, wife of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl
of Derby, and Ellen de Quincy, wife of Sir Alan la Zouche. >>
Why not Elizabeth (Quincy) Comyn ?
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
< In a message dated 5/23/06 2:15:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
< royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<
< << How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at
Syston
< is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that
Sir
< Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
< Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance. >>
<
< And if so, would that not mean that the property was split into more
than two
< pieces?
Not necessarily. Milicent de Cantelowe was claiming dower rights to
the lands held at Syston by Ranulph de Neville and his wife, Euphemia
de Clavering. There may have been two tenancies to the same property
at Syston, one of which was held under the other. It can get confusing
sometimes straightening out who held what from whom. Sometimes, for
example, the established overlordship just disappears from later
records with no explanation as to how or why.
DR
< In a message dated 5/23/06 2:15:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
< royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<
< << How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at
Syston
< is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that
Sir
< Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
< Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance. >>
<
< And if so, would that not mean that the property was split into more
than two
< pieces?
Not necessarily. Milicent de Cantelowe was claiming dower rights to
the lands held at Syston by Ranulph de Neville and his wife, Euphemia
de Clavering. There may have been two tenancies to the same property
at Syston, one of which was held under the other. It can get confusing
sometimes straightening out who held what from whom. Sometimes, for
example, the established overlordship just disappears from later
records with no explanation as to how or why.
DR
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/23/06 2:15:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at Syston
is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that Sir
Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance. >>
And if so, would that not mean that the property was split into more than two
pieces?
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at Syston
is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that Sir
Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance. >>
And if so, would that not mean that the property was split into more than two
pieces?
-
Gjest
Re: Thomas Williamson, Bnt in 1642
In a message dated 5/23/06 9:16:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< The Calendar of PCC Willis shows a probate grant of 27 November 1657 in
respect of "Sir Thomas Williamson, of Great Markham, Notts" [PROB
11/270]
MA-R >>
Thanks. Yes I had sent a correction to the list, that I must have merged two
different Thomas Williamson's together, evidently both bart's and evidently
both of Markham, most be father and son, but I'm not completely sure.
The younger one, slips just outside of the scope of my research, since he is
said to have d 1709 (OneWorldTree online at http://www.ancestry.com) [OWT is
notoriously inaccurate btw with dates]
The last record I have from A2A for this younger one is dated 15 Oct 1689
The first record I find for a "Thomas Williamson" who appears to be the
father (later made Bart) is below.
Will Johnson
--------------------------------
East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: HOWARD-VYSE FAMILY OF
LANGTON HALL
HOWARD-VYSE FAMILY OF LANGTON HALL
Catalogue Ref. DDHV
Creator(s): Howard-Vyse family of Langton Hall
East Riding
Hutton Cranswick
FILE - Lease for 21 years for property as described in DDHV/21/19 - ref.
DDHV/21/24 - date: 14 May 1642
[from Scope and Content] Parties: 1) Thomas Williamson of East Markham,
esquire 2) Gilbert Lambert of Hutton Cranswick, yeoman Consideration: rent and
payments as described in DDHV/21/23 Witnesses: Gilbert Dowe, Richard Newlove,
Jeremie Porter and Samuel Rudstone
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< The Calendar of PCC Willis shows a probate grant of 27 November 1657 in
respect of "Sir Thomas Williamson, of Great Markham, Notts" [PROB
11/270]
MA-R >>
Thanks. Yes I had sent a correction to the list, that I must have merged two
different Thomas Williamson's together, evidently both bart's and evidently
both of Markham, most be father and son, but I'm not completely sure.
The younger one, slips just outside of the scope of my research, since he is
said to have d 1709 (OneWorldTree online at http://www.ancestry.com) [OWT is
notoriously inaccurate btw with dates]
The last record I have from A2A for this younger one is dated 15 Oct 1689
The first record I find for a "Thomas Williamson" who appears to be the
father (later made Bart) is below.
Will Johnson
--------------------------------
East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: HOWARD-VYSE FAMILY OF
LANGTON HALL
HOWARD-VYSE FAMILY OF LANGTON HALL
Catalogue Ref. DDHV
Creator(s): Howard-Vyse family of Langton Hall
East Riding
Hutton Cranswick
FILE - Lease for 21 years for property as described in DDHV/21/19 - ref.
DDHV/21/24 - date: 14 May 1642
[from Scope and Content] Parties: 1) Thomas Williamson of East Markham,
esquire 2) Gilbert Lambert of Hutton Cranswick, yeoman Consideration: rent and
payments as described in DDHV/21/23 Witnesses: Gilbert Dowe, Richard Newlove,
Jeremie Porter and Samuel Rudstone
-
Gjest
Re: LOWE Family
Jasper LOWE (late 15th, early 16th century) married Dorothy Sacheverell, dau
of William Sacheverell and his wife Mary LOWE
I can't help but think that Jasper and Mary must be also related in some way.
Below is a document I found today that may shed more light on this family. I
currently have very little solid on them, so if anyone can add details, that
would be appreciated.
Will Johnson
-------------------------------------------------
Sheffield Archives: Arundel Castle Manuscripts [ACM/SD/904 - ACM/65446]
Arundel Castle Manuscripts
Catalogue Ref. ACM
Creator(s): Howard family, Dukes of Norfolk
DEEDS OF TITLE
OTHER DERBYSHIRE ESTATES not directly connected with the Dukes of Norfolk
Ashbourne and Bradley
FILE - Final concord - ref. ACM/DD/28 - date: Easter 1554
[from Scope and Content] William Sacheverell v. Vincent and Jasper Lowe. Two
cottages and land in Bradley.
of William Sacheverell and his wife Mary LOWE
I can't help but think that Jasper and Mary must be also related in some way.
Below is a document I found today that may shed more light on this family. I
currently have very little solid on them, so if anyone can add details, that
would be appreciated.
Will Johnson
-------------------------------------------------
Sheffield Archives: Arundel Castle Manuscripts [ACM/SD/904 - ACM/65446]
Arundel Castle Manuscripts
Catalogue Ref. ACM
Creator(s): Howard family, Dukes of Norfolk
DEEDS OF TITLE
OTHER DERBYSHIRE ESTATES not directly connected with the Dukes of Norfolk
Ashbourne and Bradley
FILE - Final concord - ref. ACM/DD/28 - date: Easter 1554
[from Scope and Content] William Sacheverell v. Vincent and Jasper Lowe. Two
cottages and land in Bradley.
-
Gjest
Re: George Curson of Croxall and Mary Leveson
For some reason the document did not show up. Here is it.
Derbyshire Record Office: Every of Egginton
Every of Egginton
Catalogue Ref. D5236
Creator(s): Every family of Egginton, Derbyshire
Inherited papers
Title deeds, mortgages and leases: Newton Solney and Repton
FILE [no title] - ref. D5236/4/62 - date: 1578
[from Scope and Content] Grant of property and land in Newton Sowlney [Newton
Solney], Thomas Leighe of Egginton, gentleman, with the agreement of George
Curson of Croxall and his son George Curson, to William Kniston of Bradley,
Philip Oker of Oker (Staffordshire), Humfrey Dethicke of Newhall, Ralph
Sacheverell of Stanton, William Milwarde of Eaton, Robert Eire of Edall and John Nedham
of Osmaston
Now utilizing this same document, can we say more about the families?
Sir Ralph Sacheverell of Stanton is known to have had at least one child,
Millicent who m John Curzon and thereby became the parents of John Curzon, 1st
Bnt (1641) who was b 3 Nov 1598.
This John Curzon, the father was the son of Francis Curzon of Kedleston and
his wife Eleanor Vernon and it is known that he had a brother named George. My
tentative proposal is that George Curzon brother of John, is the same as
George Curzon of Croxall.
Comments are appreciated.
Will Johnson
Derbyshire Record Office: Every of Egginton
Every of Egginton
Catalogue Ref. D5236
Creator(s): Every family of Egginton, Derbyshire
Inherited papers
Title deeds, mortgages and leases: Newton Solney and Repton
FILE [no title] - ref. D5236/4/62 - date: 1578
[from Scope and Content] Grant of property and land in Newton Sowlney [Newton
Solney], Thomas Leighe of Egginton, gentleman, with the agreement of George
Curson of Croxall and his son George Curson, to William Kniston of Bradley,
Philip Oker of Oker (Staffordshire), Humfrey Dethicke of Newhall, Ralph
Sacheverell of Stanton, William Milwarde of Eaton, Robert Eire of Edall and John Nedham
of Osmaston
Now utilizing this same document, can we say more about the families?
Sir Ralph Sacheverell of Stanton is known to have had at least one child,
Millicent who m John Curzon and thereby became the parents of John Curzon, 1st
Bnt (1641) who was b 3 Nov 1598.
This John Curzon, the father was the son of Francis Curzon of Kedleston and
his wife Eleanor Vernon and it is known that he had a brother named George. My
tentative proposal is that George Curzon brother of John, is the same as
George Curzon of Croxall.
Comments are appreciated.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/23/06 2:15:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at Syston
is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that Sir
Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance. >>
Leo is already showing this relationship as you have specified.
And I had it in my database, Eudes as a son of Alan and Ellen
And I've found chronologic difficulties so far in the descents of any of the
children implying they should be a generation older.
So it seems likely to me that this is true and explains Millicent's claim of
dower, but should mark a correction to the statement that the property.
However it would imply that the claim that the property descended, in the whole
moiety of Ellen to her "son and heir Roger" should be set-aside in favor of a
statement that it must have been split or perhaps in a joint-arrangement between
at least Eudes AND Roger. Otherwise Milicent would have no claim.
Eudes d.v.m. his mother dying not until 1296 (Living Descendents of Blood
Royal, Vol 2, "Landrum", pg 503-508)
William le Zouche of King's Nympton was granted Lubbesthorpe in 1267/8
perhaps this was part of an arrangement whereby his parents created estate for each
son, within their lifetime, which would then explain, in part the confusion
over the descent of Syston.
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at Syston
is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that Sir
Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance. >>
Leo is already showing this relationship as you have specified.
And I had it in my database, Eudes as a son of Alan and Ellen
And I've found chronologic difficulties so far in the descents of any of the
children implying they should be a generation older.
So it seems likely to me that this is true and explains Millicent's claim of
dower, but should mark a correction to the statement that the property.
However it would imply that the claim that the property descended, in the whole
moiety of Ellen to her "son and heir Roger" should be set-aside in favor of a
statement that it must have been split or perhaps in a joint-arrangement between
at least Eudes AND Roger. Otherwise Milicent would have no claim.
Eudes d.v.m. his mother dying not until 1296 (Living Descendents of Blood
Royal, Vol 2, "Landrum", pg 503-508)
William le Zouche of King's Nympton was granted Lubbesthorpe in 1267/8
perhaps this was part of an arrangement whereby his parents created estate for each
son, within their lifetime, which would then explain, in part the confusion
over the descent of Syston.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/23/06 3:46:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< And I've found chronologic difficulties so far in the descents of any of
the
children implying they should be a generation older. >>
Correct this to say "I have found NO chronologic...."
Quite a bit of difference.
Will
writes:
<< And I've found chronologic difficulties so far in the descents of any of
the
children implying they should be a generation older. >>
Correct this to say "I have found NO chronologic...."
Quite a bit of difference.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC
In a message dated 5/22/06 10:58:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< Both the visitations of Leicester (HSP 2) and of
Shropshire (HSP 28) confirm Elizabeth's two marriages and her father John,
although the Shropshire visitation says John was of that county while the
Leics visitation says he was of either Shropshire or Gloucester. >>
Burke's Commoners states that Elizabeth's father John was son of a William
Hopton of Shropshire. Perhaps this can explain the one reference to her
"father" being William.
Will Johnson
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< Both the visitations of Leicester (HSP 2) and of
Shropshire (HSP 28) confirm Elizabeth's two marriages and her father John,
although the Shropshire visitation says John was of that county while the
Leics visitation says he was of either Shropshire or Gloucester. >>
Burke's Commoners states that Elizabeth's father John was son of a William
Hopton of Shropshire. Perhaps this can explain the one reference to her
"father" being William.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Help with a 13th century Anglo-French document.
Dear Will,
Interesting, Something about Alexander mac Angus Mac Donald
of the Isles establishing a court and Bailiewick.
Apparenty the same Alexander MacDonald, Lord of the Isles who married a
daughter of the first Red Comyn of Badenoch, son of Angus Mor Mac Donald, Lord
of the Isles.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont,Maine USA
Interesting, Something about Alexander mac Angus Mac Donald
of the Isles establishing a court and Bailiewick.
Apparenty the same Alexander MacDonald, Lord of the Isles who married a
daughter of the first Red Comyn of Badenoch, son of Angus Mor Mac Donald, Lord
of the Isles.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont,Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
Dear Douglas and Will,
I apologize for having lost track of the
on- line source for this , but it seems that Roger de Quincy, Earl of
Winchester and Constable of Scotland built Cruggleton Castle in Galloway and that
with the Constableship of Scotland were passed to Elizabeth de Quincy`s husband
Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan as her dower.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
I apologize for having lost track of the
on- line source for this , but it seems that Roger de Quincy, Earl of
Winchester and Constable of Scotland built Cruggleton Castle in Galloway and that
with the Constableship of Scotland were passed to Elizabeth de Quincy`s husband
Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan as her dower.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
John Higgins
Re: LOWE Family
This relationship is covered quite clearly in an article on the Lowe family
in 1963 in The National Genealogical Society Quarterly (vol. 51). Jasper
Lowe and his wife Mary Sacheverell were first cousins. Jasper's father
Vincent was the younger brother of Mary's father Clement. There is some
information in the archives of the group on these folks and both the
Sacheverell and Lowe families.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: LOWE Family
in 1963 in The National Genealogical Society Quarterly (vol. 51). Jasper
Lowe and his wife Mary Sacheverell were first cousins. Jasper's father
Vincent was the younger brother of Mary's father Clement. There is some
information in the archives of the group on these folks and both the
Sacheverell and Lowe families.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: LOWE Family
Jasper LOWE (late 15th, early 16th century) married Dorothy Sacheverell,
dau
of William Sacheverell and his wife Mary LOWE
I can't help but think that Jasper and Mary must be also related in some
way.
Below is a document I found today that may shed more light on this family.
I
currently have very little solid on them, so if anyone can add details,
that
would be appreciated.
Will Johnson
-------------------------------------------------
Sheffield Archives: Arundel Castle Manuscripts [ACM/SD/904 - ACM/65446]
Arundel Castle Manuscripts
Catalogue Ref. ACM
Creator(s): Howard family, Dukes of Norfolk
DEEDS OF TITLE
OTHER DERBYSHIRE ESTATES not directly connected with the Dukes of Norfolk
Ashbourne and Bradley
FILE - Final concord - ref. ACM/DD/28 - date: Easter 1554
[from Scope and Content] William Sacheverell v. Vincent and Jasper Lowe.
Two
cottages and land in Bradley.
-
Gjest
Re: LOWE Family
In a message dated 5/23/06 8:24:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< This relationship is covered quite clearly in an article on the Lowe family
in 1963 in The National Genealogical Society Quarterly (vol. 51). Jasper
Lowe and his wife Mary Sacheverell were first cousins. Jasper's father
Vincent was the younger brother of Mary's father Clement. There is some
information in the archives of the group on these folks and both the
Sacheverell and Lowe families. >>
Can I correct this to read "first cousins once removed"
and then "Jasper's father Vincent was the younger brother of Mary [his
mother-in-laws] father Clement"
Does that work? Otherwise I'm not sure I understand this.
Thanks
Will
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< This relationship is covered quite clearly in an article on the Lowe family
in 1963 in The National Genealogical Society Quarterly (vol. 51). Jasper
Lowe and his wife Mary Sacheverell were first cousins. Jasper's father
Vincent was the younger brother of Mary's father Clement. There is some
information in the archives of the group on these folks and both the
Sacheverell and Lowe families. >>
Can I correct this to read "first cousins once removed"
and then "Jasper's father Vincent was the younger brother of Mary [his
mother-in-laws] father Clement"
Does that work? Otherwise I'm not sure I understand this.
Thanks
Will
-
Juanita Hoffman
RE: Re: OT da Vinci code
Also in the book the correct input for one of the criptex was SOFIA, the name of the granddaughter of the murdered curator of the Louvre. Apparently their family is supposed to be the "Sang Real". The book is much more in depth, as usual.
Juanita
Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a lifetime
http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sw ... ister.aspx
Juanita
From: mhollick@mac.com> Subject: Re: OT da Vinci code> Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:25:21 -0700> To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com> > The criptex was invented by Da Vinci, but the actual criptex was> obviously fashioned after Newton lived to hold the map. It's clearer in> the book where the criptex is a criptex in a criptex, etc. There are> three I remember in the book, but one in the film.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a lifetime
http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sw ... ister.aspx
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Dear Will ~'
'
I'm afraid it's not that simple.
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 937-938 (sub Zouche) show a seamless
history of Eudes la Zouche from 1251 to 1279. It specifically cites a
record dated 1262 in which Eudes la Zouche is called the brother, not
son, of Alan la Zouche. The account seems very well supported. The
chief difficulty is that Complete Peerage assigns Eudes a marriage late
in late and makes no mention of his land ownership at Syston,
Leicestershire, which was a Quincy property.
However, I suspect there may have been two Eudes la Zouche who occur in
rapid succession in the records. The first one occurs from 1251 to at
least 1262. He was granted the marriage of Agatha de Ferrers in 1253,
but did not marry her. The second one occurs from at least 1273 to
1279. He married before 1273 Milicent de Cantelowe. He died in 1279,
and was survived by his wife, Milicent, who died in 1299. He was the
one who presumably owned property at Syston, Leicestershire.
The two Eudes theory would leave unexplained the identity of the Eudes
la Zouche who occurs in the records in the period, 1263-1267.
For what it is worth, I note that Burke assigns Eudes la Zouche,
husband of Milicent de Cantelowe, as the son of Sir Alan la Zouche and
Ellen de Quincy. See the weblink beloiw for particulars.
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... &dq=Zouche
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
In a message dated 5/23/06 2:15:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at Syston
is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that Sir
Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance.
Leo is already showing this relationship as you have specified.
Dear Will ~'
'
I'm afraid it's not that simple.
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 937-938 (sub Zouche) show a seamless
history of Eudes la Zouche from 1251 to 1279. It specifically cites a
record dated 1262 in which Eudes la Zouche is called the brother, not
son, of Alan la Zouche. The account seems very well supported. The
chief difficulty is that Complete Peerage assigns Eudes a marriage late
in late and makes no mention of his land ownership at Syston,
Leicestershire, which was a Quincy property.
However, I suspect there may have been two Eudes la Zouche who occur in
rapid succession in the records. The first one occurs from 1251 to at
least 1262. He was granted the marriage of Agatha de Ferrers in 1253,
but did not marry her. The second one occurs from at least 1273 to
1279. He married before 1273 Milicent de Cantelowe. He died in 1279,
and was survived by his wife, Milicent, who died in 1299. He was the
one who presumably owned property at Syston, Leicestershire.
The two Eudes theory would leave unexplained the identity of the Eudes
la Zouche who occurs in the records in the period, 1263-1267.
For what it is worth, I note that Burke assigns Eudes la Zouche,
husband of Milicent de Cantelowe, as the son of Sir Alan la Zouche and
Ellen de Quincy. See the weblink beloiw for particulars.
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... &dq=Zouche
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
I meant to write:
"The chief difficulty is that Complete Peerage assigns Eudes a marriage
late
in life," not "late in late."
DR
Douglas Richardson wrote:
"The chief difficulty is that Complete Peerage assigns Eudes a marriage
late
in life," not "late in late."
DR
Douglas Richardson wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/23/06 2:15:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
How Milicent de Cantelowe obtained her alleged dower rights at Syston
is not explained by Farnham. However, it seems likely to me that Sir
Eudes la Zouche was a son of Ellen de Quincy, as Syston was part of
Ellen de Quincy's own inheritance.
Leo is already showing this relationship as you have specified.
Dear Will ~'
'
I'm afraid it's not that simple.
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 937-938 (sub Zouche) show a seamless
history of Eudes la Zouche from 1251 to 1279. It specifically cites a
record dated 1262 in which Eudes la Zouche is called the brother, not
son, of Alan la Zouche. The account seems very well supported. The
chief difficulty is that Complete Peerage assigns Eudes a marriage late
in late and makes no mention of his land ownership at Syston,
Leicestershire, which was a Quincy property.
However, I suspect there may have been two Eudes la Zouche who occur in
rapid succession in the records. The first one occurs from 1251 to at
least 1262. He was granted the marriage of Agatha de Ferrers in 1253,
but did not marry her. The second one occurs from at least 1273 to
1279. He married before 1273 Milicent de Cantelowe. He died in 1279,
and was survived by his wife, Milicent, who died in 1299. He was the
one who presumably owned property at Syston, Leicestershire.
The two Eudes theory would leave unexplained the identity of the Eudes
la Zouche who occurs in the records in the period, 1263-1267.
For what it is worth, I note that Burke assigns Eudes la Zouche,
husband of Milicent de Cantelowe, as the son of Sir Alan la Zouche and
Ellen de Quincy. See the weblink beloiw for particulars.
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... &dq=Zouche
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Gjest
Re: What this list is - on "insularity"
Some other examples, from Gary Roberts' online column # 77
concerning actors & actresses:
Judy Garland: Henry Batte of Va.
Tom Hanks: Capt. Roger Mallory of Va.
Gregory Peck: No RD.
Elizabeth Taylor: No RD.
Keanu Reeves: No RD.
Henry Fonda: No RD.
William Holden: No RD.
Vincent Price: Agnes (Harris)(Edwards) Spencer.
Christopher Reeve: Thomas Dudley of Mass.
Thomas Bradbury of Mass.
Obadiah Bruen of Ct.
and Thomas and Mary (Jones) Lloyd of Pa.
(one might be cautious about this last
one,
a Welsh line)
concerning actors & actresses:
Judy Garland: Henry Batte of Va.
Tom Hanks: Capt. Roger Mallory of Va.
Gregory Peck: No RD.
Elizabeth Taylor: No RD.
Keanu Reeves: No RD.
Henry Fonda: No RD.
William Holden: No RD.
Vincent Price: Agnes (Harris)(Edwards) Spencer.
Christopher Reeve: Thomas Dudley of Mass.
Thomas Bradbury of Mass.
Obadiah Bruen of Ct.
and Thomas and Mary (Jones) Lloyd of Pa.
(one might be cautious about this last
one,
a Welsh line)
-
R. Battle
Re: What this list is - on "insularity"
On Wed, 24 May 2006, lmahler@att.net wrote:
Not that it makes much difference, but Christopher Reeve also has a line
from Gov. Thomas Dudley (see <http://www.wargs.com/other/reeve.html>).
-Robert Battle
Some other examples, from Gary Roberts' online column # 77
concerning actors & actresses:
snip
Christopher Reeve: Thomas Dudley of Mass.
Thomas Bradbury of Mass.
Obadiah Bruen of Ct.
and Thomas and Mary (Jones) Lloyd of Pa.
(one might be cautious about this last
one,
a Welsh line)
Not that it makes much difference, but Christopher Reeve also has a line
from Gov. Thomas Dudley (see <http://www.wargs.com/other/reeve.html>).
-Robert Battle
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Help with a 13th century Anglo-French document.
Dear Will,
It would seem that Alexander was more likely the son of an
earlier marriage of Angur Mor mac Donald [who is known to have other,
illegitimate issue - Ian 'Sprangach' for one].
Alexander was identified as the legitimate son (evidently the
oldest legitimate son) of his father in 1286, when they were both part
of the 'Turnberry Band' (see below). The 1292 record tallies well with
this evidence, but not so well with the chronology if Alexander were
the great-grandson of Neil, Earl of Carrick.
Cheers,
John
' Alexander filius ejus legittimus ', together with his father [Angus
Mor], entered into a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith
and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of
Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of
Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22 ]
"Captain of the Coast of Argyll and Ross", in service to King Edward I
of England, June 1297 [Campbell, A History of Clan Campbell, p. 60]
complained of attacks by Alexander MacDouglall on his lands in June
1297 [Campbell, p. 59]
slain in battle by Alexander MacDougal [Campbell, p. 61, cites Annals
of the Four Masters]
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
It would seem that Alexander was more likely the son of an
earlier marriage of Angur Mor mac Donald [who is known to have other,
illegitimate issue - Ian 'Sprangach' for one].
Alexander was identified as the legitimate son (evidently the
oldest legitimate son) of his father in 1286, when they were both part
of the 'Turnberry Band' (see below). The 1292 record tallies well with
this evidence, but not so well with the chronology if Alexander were
the great-grandson of Neil, Earl of Carrick.
Cheers,
John
' Alexander filius ejus legittimus ', together with his father [Angus
Mor], entered into a bond with Robert de Brus, Walter, earl of Menteith
and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286 'to adhere to the party of
Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of
Menteith II: 219-220, citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22 ]
"Captain of the Coast of Argyll and Ross", in service to King Edward I
of England, June 1297 [Campbell, A History of Clan Campbell, p. 60]
complained of attacks by Alexander MacDouglall on his lands in June
1297 [Campbell, p. 59]
slain in battle by Alexander MacDougal [Campbell, p. 61, cites Annals
of the Four Masters]
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/23/06 10:34:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bankss@carnegielibrary.org writes:
The document is dated 1292 and records that Alexander (MacDougall) of
Argyll, Lord of Lorne,
swears to keep peace in Scotland and the Isles.
By the way, this document says that Alexander is son of Angus, son of Donald.
I currently only show one wife to Angus, which is NN Campbell, dau of Colin
Campbell and Aufrick 'of Carrick'
Is this Alexander another son to NN Campbell? It's chronological difficult
to place him as someone who is ordered to "keep his peace" at a maximum age of
19 ...
Perhaps he is a son by an earlier relationship of Angus ?
Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson
-
John Brandon
Re: What this list is - on "insularity"
Thinking it over, John, I tend to agree with you. When I said a few days
ago that there were others out there with many many with numerous
royal/ancient gateways (12-15 or so) I was thinking of the late Walter
Lee Sheppard, FASG. who also had quite along list. But, again
reconsidering, this seems to be most unusual - probably atypical. I
suspect though that the total has is to some large extent correlated to
"degrees- of comprehensiveness" [if you will] of traced ancestry - also,
it must be confessed, some "dumb luck".
But since you claimed earlier, "I could have listed some gateways ... I
subsequently disproved: Charles Chauncy, Peter Bulkeley, and Grace
(Chetwode) Bulkeley," I wonder if you haven't in fact left a few other
disproved ones in your list, for the sake of nostalgia, as it were? I
mean, technically you could list disproved ancestors (who's going to be
able to check?), but it wouldn't be very honest of you ... would it?
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
Dear James ~
The hereditary office of Constable of Scotland fell to Earl Roger de
Quincy's eldest daughter, Margaret (or Margery) de Ferrers, Countess of
Derby. She resigned the office in 1270 to Alexander Comyn, Earl of
Buchan, husband of her younger sister, Elizabeth (or Isabel) de Quincy.
The Quincy heirs did not always see eye to eye, however. In 1277, for
instance, Alexander Comyn suspended his suit against his wife's other
sister, Ellen la Zouche, in the Scottish courts at the request of King
Edward I.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
< Dear Douglas and Will,
<
< I apologize for having lost track of the on- line source for this ,
but it seems that
< Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and Constable of Scotland built
Cruggleton
< Castle in Galloway and that with the Constableship of Scotland were
passed to
< Elizabeth de Quincy`s husband Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan as her
dower.
<
< Sincerely,
<
< James W Cummings
<
< Dixmont, Maine USA
The hereditary office of Constable of Scotland fell to Earl Roger de
Quincy's eldest daughter, Margaret (or Margery) de Ferrers, Countess of
Derby. She resigned the office in 1270 to Alexander Comyn, Earl of
Buchan, husband of her younger sister, Elizabeth (or Isabel) de Quincy.
The Quincy heirs did not always see eye to eye, however. In 1277, for
instance, Alexander Comyn suspended his suit against his wife's other
sister, Ellen la Zouche, in the Scottish courts at the request of King
Edward I.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
< Dear Douglas and Will,
<
< I apologize for having lost track of the on- line source for this ,
but it seems that
< Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and Constable of Scotland built
Cruggleton
< Castle in Galloway and that with the Constableship of Scotland were
passed to
< Elizabeth de Quincy`s husband Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan as her
dower.
<
< Sincerely,
<
< James W Cummings
<
< Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: What this list is - on "insularity" [OT? - US-centric]
In article <s472f7f7.013@CENTRAL_SVR2>,
hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us ("Tony Hoskins") wrote:
Or the accidents of geography, or intermarriage. My children have
eleven gateways, five from me and six from my wife. My parents have one
and four gateways respectively; my in-laws have three and three. Two
generations further up, eight out of my children's 16
great-great-grandparents (of whom only nine have any colonial ancestry
in the first place) have gateways--one with four, one with three, one
with two, and five with one each. These folks were all living around
1900. The two with four and three gateways shared them: they were
working-class neighbors & cousins who married each other, so their
children had only the same four. The other great-great-grandparents all
had non-duplicated gateways and came from different populations without
any close intersecting ancestry.
So in my case it is twentieth-century migration and social mobility,
with intermarriages of people with distinct ancestral clusters, that
brought about the larger-than-usual collection of known gateway descents
for my children, even though only just over half of their ancestry
(measured at four generations back) had any colonial US components. But
who's to say such consecutive intermarriages of descendants of gateways
weren't also taking place in earlier generations in various populations
(say 19th-century Boston or New York, or the midwest)?
I suspect that most gateways were pretty much randomly distributed among
the early colonial population in terms of social and geographic identity
(most of them were not baronets' sisters, etc.). Even without some
shared consciousness of having some sort of exalted ancestry (which
surely did not exist for most of them) prompting a higher frequency of
intermarriage, still by random chance there must have been enough early
consecutive intermarriages of descendants of distinct gateways to
produce at least *some* people today with lots & lots (say over 30?) of
these known gateways in their ATs.
I would bet the distribution and intermarriage of their descendants in
the US population would be similar to the pattern generated by
descendants of any randomly selected group of 200 early colonists (or
whatever the current number of known medieval colonial gateways is):
some people would have lots of them in their AT; many people would have
a small number, and some people would have none. Over time, as we know
from Chang's mathematical model, descent from all of them (or all those
whose progeny are not extinct) will be universal in the population.
How many known gateways did Sheppard have, and what was his recent
ancestry?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us ("Tony Hoskins") wrote:
Thinking it over, John, I tend to agree with you. When I said a few days
ago that there were others out there with many many with numerous
royal/ancient gateways (12-15 or so) I was thinking of the late Walter
Lee Sheppard, FASG. who also had quite along list. But, again
reconsidering, this seems to be most unusual - probably atypical. I
suspect though that the total has is to some large extent correlated to
"degrees- of comprehensiveness" [if you will] of traced ancestry - also,
it must be confessed, some "dumb luck".
Or the accidents of geography, or intermarriage. My children have
eleven gateways, five from me and six from my wife. My parents have one
and four gateways respectively; my in-laws have three and three. Two
generations further up, eight out of my children's 16
great-great-grandparents (of whom only nine have any colonial ancestry
in the first place) have gateways--one with four, one with three, one
with two, and five with one each. These folks were all living around
1900. The two with four and three gateways shared them: they were
working-class neighbors & cousins who married each other, so their
children had only the same four. The other great-great-grandparents all
had non-duplicated gateways and came from different populations without
any close intersecting ancestry.
So in my case it is twentieth-century migration and social mobility,
with intermarriages of people with distinct ancestral clusters, that
brought about the larger-than-usual collection of known gateway descents
for my children, even though only just over half of their ancestry
(measured at four generations back) had any colonial US components. But
who's to say such consecutive intermarriages of descendants of gateways
weren't also taking place in earlier generations in various populations
(say 19th-century Boston or New York, or the midwest)?
I suspect that most gateways were pretty much randomly distributed among
the early colonial population in terms of social and geographic identity
(most of them were not baronets' sisters, etc.). Even without some
shared consciousness of having some sort of exalted ancestry (which
surely did not exist for most of them) prompting a higher frequency of
intermarriage, still by random chance there must have been enough early
consecutive intermarriages of descendants of distinct gateways to
produce at least *some* people today with lots & lots (say over 30?) of
these known gateways in their ATs.
I would bet the distribution and intermarriage of their descendants in
the US population would be similar to the pattern generated by
descendants of any randomly selected group of 200 early colonists (or
whatever the current number of known medieval colonial gateways is):
some people would have lots of them in their AT; many people would have
a small number, and some people would have none. Over time, as we know
from Chang's mathematical model, descent from all of them (or all those
whose progeny are not extinct) will be universal in the population.
How many known gateways did Sheppard have, and what was his recent
ancestry?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
-
John Brandon
Re: What this list is - on "insularity" [OT? - US-centric]
consecutive intermarriages of descendants of distinct gateways to
produce at least *some* people today with lots & lots (say over 30?) of
these known gateways in their ATs.
Well, possibly some very recent descendants of Robert E. Lee, the
children of whom Gary mentions as having 16 or 18 gateways ancestors of
royal descent.
But I would think Princess Diana's American ancestry would be a more
likely model for the general population: only one remote RD, from Mrs.
Alice Freeman-Thompson-Parke.
-
Chris Phillips
Re: New search facility on UK National Archives website
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
The dates can be specified (along with other search options) by clicking the
"Advanced search" tab.
One dangerous feature is that the results of an advanced search are
accompanied by a keyword box, so that the keywords can be modified, but the
other advanced options (not now shown) remain effective for subsequent
searches.
Chris Phillips
How to do it? How how how!!!
The dates can be specified (along with other search options) by clicking the
"Advanced search" tab.
One dangerous feature is that the results of an advanced search are
accompanied by a keyword box, so that the keywords can be modified, but the
other advanced options (not now shown) remain effective for subsequent
searches.
Chris Phillips
-
John Higgins
Re: LOWE Family
Sorry for my carelessness. You are of course correct. Jasper's wife was
Dorothy, not Mary, Sacheverell and Dorothy's mother Mary Lowe was Jasper's
first cousin [and mother-in-law]. The NSGQ article, while showing the
correct relationship, does actually refer to Jaspaer and his wife Dorothy as
first cousins without the "once removed" qualification - but it clearly
should be included.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: LOWE Family
Dorothy, not Mary, Sacheverell and Dorothy's mother Mary Lowe was Jasper's
first cousin [and mother-in-law]. The NSGQ article, while showing the
correct relationship, does actually refer to Jaspaer and his wife Dorothy as
first cousins without the "once removed" qualification - but it clearly
should be included.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: LOWE Family
In a message dated 5/23/06 8:24:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
This relationship is covered quite clearly in an article on the Lowe
family
in 1963 in The National Genealogical Society Quarterly (vol. 51). Jasper
Lowe and his wife Mary Sacheverell were first cousins. Jasper's father
Vincent was the younger brother of Mary's father Clement. There is some
information in the archives of the group on these folks and both the
Sacheverell and Lowe families.
Can I correct this to read "first cousins once removed"
and then "Jasper's father Vincent was the younger brother of Mary [his
mother-in-laws] father Clement"
Does that work? Otherwise I'm not sure I understand this.
Thanks
Will
-
Gjest
Re: New search facility on UK National Archives website
In a message dated 5/24/2006 3:22:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
The big advantage is that when a range of dates is specified, it is applied
to individual items in A2A, not to collections as a whole - so the results
really are from the 15th century (for example), rather than being
18th-century items in a collection that starts in 1300. Unless I've been
missing something, this kind of search for A2A material hasn't been possible
previously.
How to do it? How how how!!!
And you are correct, this is one of the extremely annoying things about A2A

Will
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
The big advantage is that when a range of dates is specified, it is applied
to individual items in A2A, not to collections as a whole - so the results
really are from the 15th century (for example), rather than being
18th-century items in a collection that starts in 1300. Unless I've been
missing something, this kind of search for A2A material hasn't been possible
previously.
How to do it? How how how!!!
And you are correct, this is one of the extremely annoying things about A2A
Will
-
Gjest
Re: New search facility on UK National Archives website
In a message dated 5/24/2006 9:36:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
One dangerous feature is that the results of an advanced search are
accompanied by a keyword box, so that the keywords can be modified, but the
other advanced options (not now shown) remain effective for subsequent
searches.
I see so I have to remember that I've indicated 1500-1600 for each search
from then forward until I go back and change that
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
One dangerous feature is that the results of an advanced search are
accompanied by a keyword box, so that the keywords can be modified, but the
other advanced options (not now shown) remain effective for subsequent
searches.
I see so I have to remember that I've indicated 1500-1600 for each search
from then forward until I go back and change that
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
Wednesday, 24 May 2006
Dear Doug, Will, et al.,
If the following charter can be more accurately dated than
as shown by J. H. Round (no mean feat), this might help a bit
in advancing the discussion of (A) 'Two Eudes' or (B) not 'Two
Eudes' (if that is the question).
' (1) [Circ. 1250.] - Gift by Richard de Harucurd to William
his son and heir of the whole manor of Eylistona [Aylestone]
with the advowson and fishery and his wood of Brandistona
[Braunston], saving the estovers therein for his manors
of Kilbeworth [Kibworth Harcourt] and Neutona [Newton
Harcourt], together with an annuity of four pounds of silver.
If the said William should die before him (quod absit,
in fata discesserit) all the foregoing shall remain in
dower to Alice, wife of the said William, and sister of
Alan la Zuche, and he consitutes the boys (pueros) born of
them his heirs. If both William and Alice should die before
him without heir of their bodies, then all the foregoing
shall revert to him and his heirs.
Hiis testibus: Domino Rogero de Quency comite Wincestrie;
Domino Roberto de Quency; Philippo Lovell; Domino Saero de
Sancto Andrea; Domino Willelmo la Zuche; Domino Alvredo
de Soleny; Domino Roberto de Harucurd; Domino Ivone la
Zuche; Domino Henrico de Harucurd; Domino Johanne de
Granford; Domino Petro le Pot[er]; Domino Roberto de
Sancto Andrea. ' [1]
We know the charter was witnessed before April 1264, when
Roger de Quincy, earl of Winchester died. His (younger) brother
Robert allegedly d. in 1257, which would set the end date a
bit earlier if this death date is correct.
I note the following:
A. The apparent chronology here, and with Eudes la Zouche
who m. Millicent de Cantilupo (bef. 13 Dec 1273), makes
one think it was most likely an older Eudes who was
brother to Alan la Zouche (d. 1270), and a younger Eudes,
likely son of the elder, who was the husband of Millicent.
The Eudes ('Ivo') la Zouche, styled 'Dominus', who
witnessed this charter ca. 1250 was likely old enough
to have entered into a marriage, as his supposed elder
brother Alan had done in 1242, and his sister Alice
with William de Harcourt, ca. 1250 or before.
B. It is interesting that we have a William la Zouche
[ ' Domino Willelmo la Zuche ' ], right behind the
Quincys and Sir Saer de St. Andrew, listed in the witness
group 3 positions ahead of Eudes la Zouche [ ' Domino
Ivone la Zuche ' ]. This was undoubedly not William
la Zouche of Black Torrington, younger son of Sir Alan
la Zouche [he was likely born say 1248/1250]. It was
most likely William la Zouche of Norton, co. Northants.,
Hobrugge, Essex & c., evidently younger brother of Sir
Alan, who '...held Hobrugg Manor, Ess., by courtesy of
England, inheritance of his late wife Maud, 3 Feb.
1272,..' [Knights of Edw I, V:225].
The appearance to me is, that William la Zouche of Norton and
Hobrugge was older than Eudes; if significantly older, that might
explain an apparently late marriage for Eudes, but I admit to now
favouring the 'two Eudes' solution.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Historical MSS. Commission, Manuscripts of His Grace the
Duke of Rutland, IV:9 [footnote: " This document, which
is not mentioned by Nichols, is referred to in Rot. Parl.
6 Edw. I. (Vol. I, p. 11). ' ]
Dear Doug, Will, et al.,
If the following charter can be more accurately dated than
as shown by J. H. Round (no mean feat), this might help a bit
in advancing the discussion of (A) 'Two Eudes' or (B) not 'Two
Eudes' (if that is the question).
' (1) [Circ. 1250.] - Gift by Richard de Harucurd to William
his son and heir of the whole manor of Eylistona [Aylestone]
with the advowson and fishery and his wood of Brandistona
[Braunston], saving the estovers therein for his manors
of Kilbeworth [Kibworth Harcourt] and Neutona [Newton
Harcourt], together with an annuity of four pounds of silver.
If the said William should die before him (quod absit,
in fata discesserit) all the foregoing shall remain in
dower to Alice, wife of the said William, and sister of
Alan la Zuche, and he consitutes the boys (pueros) born of
them his heirs. If both William and Alice should die before
him without heir of their bodies, then all the foregoing
shall revert to him and his heirs.
Hiis testibus: Domino Rogero de Quency comite Wincestrie;
Domino Roberto de Quency; Philippo Lovell; Domino Saero de
Sancto Andrea; Domino Willelmo la Zuche; Domino Alvredo
de Soleny; Domino Roberto de Harucurd; Domino Ivone la
Zuche; Domino Henrico de Harucurd; Domino Johanne de
Granford; Domino Petro le Pot[er]; Domino Roberto de
Sancto Andrea. ' [1]
We know the charter was witnessed before April 1264, when
Roger de Quincy, earl of Winchester died. His (younger) brother
Robert allegedly d. in 1257, which would set the end date a
bit earlier if this death date is correct.
I note the following:
A. The apparent chronology here, and with Eudes la Zouche
who m. Millicent de Cantilupo (bef. 13 Dec 1273), makes
one think it was most likely an older Eudes who was
brother to Alan la Zouche (d. 1270), and a younger Eudes,
likely son of the elder, who was the husband of Millicent.
The Eudes ('Ivo') la Zouche, styled 'Dominus', who
witnessed this charter ca. 1250 was likely old enough
to have entered into a marriage, as his supposed elder
brother Alan had done in 1242, and his sister Alice
with William de Harcourt, ca. 1250 or before.
B. It is interesting that we have a William la Zouche
[ ' Domino Willelmo la Zuche ' ], right behind the
Quincys and Sir Saer de St. Andrew, listed in the witness
group 3 positions ahead of Eudes la Zouche [ ' Domino
Ivone la Zuche ' ]. This was undoubedly not William
la Zouche of Black Torrington, younger son of Sir Alan
la Zouche [he was likely born say 1248/1250]. It was
most likely William la Zouche of Norton, co. Northants.,
Hobrugge, Essex & c., evidently younger brother of Sir
Alan, who '...held Hobrugg Manor, Ess., by courtesy of
England, inheritance of his late wife Maud, 3 Feb.
1272,..' [Knights of Edw I, V:225].
The appearance to me is, that William la Zouche of Norton and
Hobrugge was older than Eudes; if significantly older, that might
explain an apparently late marriage for Eudes, but I admit to now
favouring the 'two Eudes' solution.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Historical MSS. Commission, Manuscripts of His Grace the
Duke of Rutland, IV:9 [footnote: " This document, which
is not mentioned by Nichols, is referred to in Rot. Parl.
6 Edw. I. (Vol. I, p. 11). ' ]
-
R. Battle
Re: What this list is - on "insularity"
Sorry for the idiocy, Leslie--somehow I missed Dudley's name on the first
line.
-Robert Battle
On Wed, 24 May 2006, R. Battle wrote:
line.
-Robert Battle
On Wed, 24 May 2006, R. Battle wrote:
On Wed, 24 May 2006, lmahler@att.net wrote:
Some other examples, from Gary Roberts' online column # 77
concerning actors & actresses:
snip
Christopher Reeve: Thomas Dudley of Mass.
Thomas Bradbury of Mass.
Obadiah Bruen of Ct.
and Thomas and Mary (Jones) Lloyd of Pa.
(one might be cautious about this last
one,
a Welsh line)
Not that it makes much difference, but Christopher Reeve also has a line from
Gov. Thomas Dudley (see <http://www.wargs.com/other/reeve.html>).
-Robert Battle
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
Dear John ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
Regarding the one Eudes la Zouche scenario, vs. two Eudes la Zouche
scenario, I think the solution to this problem will be found in
studying what became of the inheritance of Ellen de Quincy, wife of Sir
Alan la Zouche. If any of her Quincy inheritance went to the family of
Eudes la Zouche, of Harringworth, who married Milicent de Cantelowe,
then I would think it would be virtually certain that Ellen de Quincy
is the mother of that Eudes. Fortunately, a full listing of Ellen de
Quincy's inheritance has survived and is in print in the Camden Society
series. However, there appears to have been no inquisition post mortem
taken at the death of Eudes la Zouche, of Harringworth. All the same,
we already have an indication that Eudes la Zouche, of Harringworth,
had land interests at Syston, Leicestershire, which presumably came
from Ellen de Quincy.
My previous research indicates that Ellen de Quincy settled at least
part of her inheritance on her younger son, Sir Oliver la Zouche, and
on her daughter, Margery la Zouche, wife of Robert Fitz Roger. If so,
we should expect to have done the same with Eudes la Zouche, of
Harringworth, if he was her son. That's the good news.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
Regarding the one Eudes la Zouche scenario, vs. two Eudes la Zouche
scenario, I think the solution to this problem will be found in
studying what became of the inheritance of Ellen de Quincy, wife of Sir
Alan la Zouche. If any of her Quincy inheritance went to the family of
Eudes la Zouche, of Harringworth, who married Milicent de Cantelowe,
then I would think it would be virtually certain that Ellen de Quincy
is the mother of that Eudes. Fortunately, a full listing of Ellen de
Quincy's inheritance has survived and is in print in the Camden Society
series. However, there appears to have been no inquisition post mortem
taken at the death of Eudes la Zouche, of Harringworth. All the same,
we already have an indication that Eudes la Zouche, of Harringworth,
had land interests at Syston, Leicestershire, which presumably came
from Ellen de Quincy.
My previous research indicates that Ellen de Quincy settled at least
part of her inheritance on her younger son, Sir Oliver la Zouche, and
on her daughter, Margery la Zouche, wife of Robert Fitz Roger. If so,
we should expect to have done the same with Eudes la Zouche, of
Harringworth, if he was her son. That's the good news.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
-
Gjest
Re: Is a "moiety" joint ownership?
In a message dated 5/24/06 11:54:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
sysite@swbell.net writes:
<< A "moiety" is a one-half undivided ownership in any kind of property.
Joint tenants hold moities. >>
Thank you. On the OLD-ENGLISH-L list, a person is saying that in the case of
x dying intestate, that the heirs would never hold property jointly.
Can you get a moiety even in an intestate situation? Or was this only
reserved for a situation with a will present?
Thanks
Will
sysite@swbell.net writes:
<< A "moiety" is a one-half undivided ownership in any kind of property.
Joint tenants hold moities. >>
Thank you. On the OLD-ENGLISH-L list, a person is saying that in the case of
x dying intestate, that the heirs would never hold property jointly.
Can you get a moiety even in an intestate situation? Or was this only
reserved for a situation with a will present?
Thanks
Will
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: What this list is - on "insularity" [OT? - US-centric]
In article <005001c67f6b$793ce520$020010ac@pierce>,
smyth@email.unc.edu ("Richard Smyth at UNC-CH") wrote:
I don't know your Whittinghams, but perhaps it's karmic rather than
something involving a conscious selection. I have four successive male
generations of my 'Lane' line in 18th-19th-c. Gloucester, Massachusetts
marrying women with demonstrable descent from colonial-medieval
gateways. Nothing of the social climber: these were fisherfolk, just
marrying their fellow villagers, among whom these particular ancestral
lines were ubiquitous.
The same issues of definition are found in my Gloucester fishermen's
gateway descents. They descend in various lines from two immigrant
sisters, Jane (Lawrence) Giddings and Marie (Lawrence) Burnham (sisters
of your John). I count them together as one gateway since their
ancestry was the same. If Judith Knapp's medieval descent is through
the same line (is it?) maybe she should count together with them. On
the other hand, two other Essex County colonists Anne (Derehaugh)
Stratton and her daughter Elizabeth (Stratton) Thorndike, who immigrated
together, I was counting as two gateways since the daughter Elizabeth
has a wholly different medieval gateway through her father John Stratton
(who died in Suffolk before his family emigrated); Hal Bradley just
published an article on Stratton's own medieval ancestry (with a line
through Say and Sampson to that Kilroy, William Longespee) in the NEHGR.
So this seems like two gateways, thinking of John Stratton as a separate
one, even though he was not an immigrant. This is just semantics, but I
think of it as lines rather than people, I suppose, and the 'snapshot'
point as around the act of emigration, but fungible a generation back,
for honorary immigrants (like Stratton, who was of the immigrant
generation but didn't make it over). But for an immigrant like Dudley
who (appears to) have distinct medieval ancestry through two
grandparents, I quess I would still only count him once (especially
since Capt. Sir Henry remains a theory) as an 'immigrant' gateway, but
twice (accepting Sapt. Sir Henry for purposes of argument) if one's
calling 'gateways' any distinct entry points of gentry ancestry into the
early-modern hoi polloi. But I suppose it's purely an arbitrary call.
Other ancestral accidents to which people attach bragging rights, such
as being done to death as a witch, or being on a particular ship, or
being in a particular war, or signing a particular king's death-warrant,
or being exiled to a particular penal island-continent, pertain more to
individuals than to lines of ancestry, so there's no ambiguity in
counting.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
smyth@email.unc.edu ("Richard Smyth at UNC-CH") wrote:
I suspect that most gateways were pretty much randomly distributed among
the early colonial population in terms of social and geographic identity
(most of them were not baronets' sisters, etc.).
In connection with Richardson's disclosure of the early marriage of William
Hubbard and Judith Knapp, I noticed an interesting point: It means that
three successive generations of Whittingham married women who had royal
descents. Richard-1 married Elizabeth Bulkeley; John1 married Martha
Hubbard; and William2 married Mary Lawrence. Something seems to have been
tilting the odds in a Whittingham marriage.
I don't know your Whittinghams, but perhaps it's karmic rather than
something involving a conscious selection. I have four successive male
generations of my 'Lane' line in 18th-19th-c. Gloucester, Massachusetts
marrying women with demonstrable descent from colonial-medieval
gateways. Nothing of the social climber: these were fisherfolk, just
marrying their fellow villagers, among whom these particular ancestral
lines were ubiquitous.
I have problems with the term that is being used here to generate questions
about numbers: isn't "gateway ancestor" under-determined in this
discussion, when it comes to counting royal lines? Two of my ancestors,
John Lawrence (father of Mary Lawrence Hubbard) and Jane Lawrence Giddings
were born in England and died in New England. Is that two gateway ancestors
or one? If it is one, can that logic be taken a step further: Are the two
Lawrences and Judith Knapp gateways to the same royal descent? And,
assuming, for purposes of argument that Thomas Dudley's grandfather was Sir
Henry Dudley, do two gateways pass through Thomas Dudley? I believe that
answers to my questions will involve a certain amount of stipulation.
The same issues of definition are found in my Gloucester fishermen's
gateway descents. They descend in various lines from two immigrant
sisters, Jane (Lawrence) Giddings and Marie (Lawrence) Burnham (sisters
of your John). I count them together as one gateway since their
ancestry was the same. If Judith Knapp's medieval descent is through
the same line (is it?) maybe she should count together with them. On
the other hand, two other Essex County colonists Anne (Derehaugh)
Stratton and her daughter Elizabeth (Stratton) Thorndike, who immigrated
together, I was counting as two gateways since the daughter Elizabeth
has a wholly different medieval gateway through her father John Stratton
(who died in Suffolk before his family emigrated); Hal Bradley just
published an article on Stratton's own medieval ancestry (with a line
through Say and Sampson to that Kilroy, William Longespee) in the NEHGR.
So this seems like two gateways, thinking of John Stratton as a separate
one, even though he was not an immigrant. This is just semantics, but I
think of it as lines rather than people, I suppose, and the 'snapshot'
point as around the act of emigration, but fungible a generation back,
for honorary immigrants (like Stratton, who was of the immigrant
generation but didn't make it over). But for an immigrant like Dudley
who (appears to) have distinct medieval ancestry through two
grandparents, I quess I would still only count him once (especially
since Capt. Sir Henry remains a theory) as an 'immigrant' gateway, but
twice (accepting Sapt. Sir Henry for purposes of argument) if one's
calling 'gateways' any distinct entry points of gentry ancestry into the
early-modern hoi polloi. But I suppose it's purely an arbitrary call.
Other ancestral accidents to which people attach bragging rights, such
as being done to death as a witch, or being on a particular ship, or
being in a particular war, or signing a particular king's death-warrant,
or being exiled to a particular penal island-continent, pertain more to
individuals than to lines of ancestry, so there's no ambiguity in
counting.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm
-
Gjest
Re: Is a "moiety" joint ownership?
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
Indeed; many mediaeval manors were divided into moieties as a result of
their having been inherited by coheiresses under the Common Law.
In a message dated 5/24/06 11:54:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
sysite@swbell.net writes:
A "moiety" is a one-half undivided ownership in any kind of property.
Joint tenants hold moities.
Thank you. On the OLD-ENGLISH-L list, a person is saying that in the case of
x dying intestate, that the heirs would never hold property jointly.
Can you get a moiety even in an intestate situation?
Indeed; many mediaeval manors were divided into moieties as a result of
their having been inherited by coheiresses under the Common Law.
-
Richard Smyth at UNC-CH
Re: What this list is - on "insularity" [OT? - US-centric]
I suspect that most gateways were pretty much randomly distributed among
the early colonial population in terms of social and geographic identity
(most of them were not baronets' sisters, etc.).
In connection with Richardson's disclosure of the early marriage of William
Hubbard and Judith Knapp, I noticed an interesting point: It means that
three successive generations of Whittingham married women who had royal
descents. Richard-1 married Elizabeth Bulkeley; John1 married Martha
Hubbard; and William2 married Mary Lawrence. Something seems to have been
tilting the odds in a Whittingham marriage.
I have problems with the term that is being used here to generate questions
about numbers: isn't "gateway ancestor" under-determined in this
discussion, when it comes to counting royal lines? Two of my ancestors,
John Lawrence (father of Mary Lawrence Hubbard) and Jane Lawrence Giddings
were born in England and died in New England. Is that two gateway ancestors
or one? If it is one, can that logic be taken a step further: Are the two
Lawrences and Judith Knapp gateways to the same royal descent? And,
assuming, for purposes of argument that Thomas Dudley's grandfather was Sir
Henry Dudley, do two gateways pass through Thomas Dudley? I believe that
answers to my questions will involve a certain amount of stipulation.
Regards,
Richard Smyth
smyth@nc.rr.com
-
Gjest
Re: OT da Vinci code
Dear Leo ,
It`s really very simple... Leonardo was able to see into
the future. Hey, if Nostrodamus could manage it, I`m sure da Vinci could as well.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
It`s really very simple... Leonardo was able to see into
the future. Hey, if Nostrodamus could manage it, I`m sure da Vinci could as well.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Carew/Hoo/Echyngham
In a message dated 5/24/06 1:06:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
suthen@redshift.com writes:
<< Eleanor Hoo was born circa 1449 (CP VI:565, age 6 in father's IPM) and
married to James Carew about 1468. CP mentions the Echingham marriage and
the only source for this is the item you cite. In any event, it cannot have
been the Thomas you mention as he lived long after 1468. James Carew died in
1492 and Eleanor died in 1499. Must be an as yet unidentified Thomas or the
source is in error about the marriage. >>
Specifically Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Brooks", pg 156-159,
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962 states that this Thomas
Echyngham died in 1482 but gives no line citation for this fact.
Will Johnson
suthen@redshift.com writes:
<< Eleanor Hoo was born circa 1449 (CP VI:565, age 6 in father's IPM) and
married to James Carew about 1468. CP mentions the Echingham marriage and
the only source for this is the item you cite. In any event, it cannot have
been the Thomas you mention as he lived long after 1468. James Carew died in
1492 and Eleanor died in 1499. Must be an as yet unidentified Thomas or the
source is in error about the marriage. >>
Specifically Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Brooks", pg 156-159,
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962 states that this Thomas
Echyngham died in 1482 but gives no line citation for this fact.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
In a message dated 5/24/06 3:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex)
whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the present?
Many people have ancestral lines to Edward I, King of England
Edward himself has an ancestor King Edmund of England 1016
This Edmund has an ancestor King Edmund of England 941-946
This Edmund has an ancestor King Aethulwulf of Wessex 839-55
This Aethulwulf has an ancestor Under-King Ealhmund of Kent d 786
The Ealhmund has an ancestor Prince Ingild of Wessex d 718
This Ingild has an ancestor Ceawlin, King of Wessex
son of Cynric King of Wessex
son of Crioda Prince of Wessex
son of Cerdic King of Wessex d 534
which then goes back to Odin eventually
Will Johnson
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex)
whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the present?
Many people have ancestral lines to Edward I, King of England
Edward himself has an ancestor King Edmund of England 1016
This Edmund has an ancestor King Edmund of England 941-946
This Edmund has an ancestor King Aethulwulf of Wessex 839-55
This Aethulwulf has an ancestor Under-King Ealhmund of Kent d 786
The Ealhmund has an ancestor Prince Ingild of Wessex d 718
This Ingild has an ancestor Ceawlin, King of Wessex
son of Cynric King of Wessex
son of Crioda Prince of Wessex
son of Cerdic King of Wessex d 534
which then goes back to Odin eventually
Will Johnson
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Dear Will,
I asked to ignore the House of Wessex as they are known, and the question is
about descendants not ancestors.
Thanks for responding.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
I asked to ignore the House of Wessex as they are known, and the question is
about descendants not ancestors.
Thanks for responding.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
In a message dated 5/24/06 3:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of
Wessex)
whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the
present?
Many people have ancestral lines to Edward I, King of England
Edward himself has an ancestor King Edmund of England 1016
This Edmund has an ancestor King Edmund of England 941-946
This Edmund has an ancestor King Aethulwulf of Wessex 839-55
This Aethulwulf has an ancestor Under-King Ealhmund of Kent d 786
The Ealhmund has an ancestor Prince Ingild of Wessex d 718
This Ingild has an ancestor Ceawlin, King of Wessex
son of Cynric King of Wessex
son of Crioda Prince of Wessex
son of Cerdic King of Wessex d 534
which then goes back to Odin eventually
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
In a message dated 5/24/06 3:13:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< In a message dated 5/24/06 3:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex)
whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the
present?
Okay!! so my mind glossed over the part where Leo says "except the house of
Wessex..." so anyway...
Okay Leo I have that Edward King of England 901-24 was also a great-grandson
of Coenwulf, King of Mercia.
And Edward was a grandson of Ethelred of Mucel, Ealdorman of the Gainas
(which isn't Wessex either)
And his 2nd great-grandfather was actually the underking of Kent (which isn't
Wessex)
I wonder if Ealdorman Ordgar of Devonshire has any connection back to any of
these royal houses?
Then you have also Morcar of Northumbria, grandfather of Edward "Atheling" d
1057
Will Johnson
writes:
<< In a message dated 5/24/06 3:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< From roughly the years 500/600 there were several kingdoms in England.
Does anyone know whether any of these families (except the house of Wessex)
whether they have descendants that link to later times, preferably to the
present?
Okay!! so my mind glossed over the part where Leo says "except the house of
Wessex..." so anyway...
Okay Leo I have that Edward King of England 901-24 was also a great-grandson
of Coenwulf, King of Mercia.
And Edward was a grandson of Ethelred of Mucel, Ealdorman of the Gainas
(which isn't Wessex either)
And his 2nd great-grandfather was actually the underking of Kent (which isn't
Wessex)
I wonder if Ealdorman Ordgar of Devonshire has any connection back to any of
these royal houses?
Then you have also Morcar of Northumbria, grandfather of Edward "Atheling" d
1057
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Campbell of Lochawe and Stewart of Ardgowan: a conjectur
Wednesday, 24 May, 2006
Hello All,
Jared Olar very kindly responded to my post this afternoon.
At his request, I am forwarding same to the group intact.
Jared, thanks for your detailed reply. I will digest and
reply to same as soon as possible.
Cheers,
John
John, thank you very much for bringing this information and your conjecture
to my attention. As you probably know, I have done a good deal of research on
the Stewarts of Blackhall and Ardgowan because of a descent from that family
that I have on my mother's side. (I have since determined that the descent
goes through the Campbell marriage to Margaret Stewart, daughter of Sir John
Stewart of Blackhall.) I haven't done a lot of looking into this family for a few
years though, and certain questions, such as this matter that you discuss,
have remained unresolved for me.
I'm not currently subscribed to Gen-Medieval, but in the near future I will
have a few other projects wrapped up and will have time once again to
participate in Gen-Medieval. If you would be kind enough to post my reply to
Gen-Medieval for me, I would very much appreciate it.
Regarding the question of the mother of Sir John Stewart, 1st of Blackhall
and Ardgowan, we find the following information in Beginning With Kings -- From
Royal Stewart to Shaw Stewart, 1989, by Janet S. Bolton, p.3:
"Before his marriage to Annabella Drummond and before being crippled, Robert
III had fathered two illegitimate sons, said to be full brothers. Their
mother was reputed to have been a young lady of noble birth, daughter to Sir
Archibald Campbell of Lochowe, Argyllshire."
Bolton does not say where she got that information, which I assumed to have
been based on a family tradition. I did not know of the Notes & Queries entry,
which is very interesting, because it mentions the Campbell of Lochawe
connection but does not specify Sir Archibald Campbell as the father.
Bolton's information is a real puzzler, because it seems to contradict
another bit of information she had on p.4, which says:
"There were other grants of lands to Sir John Stewart, among them an entry of
a Charter to John Stewart of Achingowan of the 'lands of Stron in the Barony
of Cowall with ane taillie'. In another Roll of Robert III, there is a grant
to 'Colin Campbell of Lochow of lands in Neather Cowall which pertained to
John Stewart of Achingowan, son natural to the King.' As these lands were in the
centre of the district belonging to the Argylls (sic), it would seem to led
credence to the belief that Sir John Stewart was connected to the Argylls and
that this connection was through his mother. That Sir John Stewart had also
married a Campbell arises from a reference made to his 'brother-in-law' Sir Colin
Campbell, in a later grant. In 1402, Sir John Stewart made a grant to the
Church of Dunoon, of the fourth part of the lands of Finvachan in Cowall 'for
the safety of his soul and for the souls of his ancestors and successors' giving
further proof that he had connections in Argyllshire. These lands were
afterwards resigned by Sir John into the hands of the King, for the purpose of
granting them to Sir Colin Campbell."
It's true that the documentary evidence indicates some kind of kinship
between Sir John Stewart and the Campbells of Lochawe. However, if Sir John's
mother was a daughter of Sir Archibald, then how could Sir John be "brother-in-law"
of Sir Archibald's son Sir Colin? Surely Sir John couldn't have married his
mother's sister! I'm not aware of any evidence that Sir Colin married a
sister of Sir John. So we seem to be faced with a documentary reference to a
"brother-in-law" relationship between Sir Colin and Sir John which would be
incompatible with the tradition that Bolton mentions that identifies Sir John's
mother as Sir Colin's sister. Did Sir John marry a sister of Sir Colin? Is that
where the tradition came from that Sir John's mother belonged to the family of
the Campbells of Lochawe, from a misremembering of Sir John's marriage to a
daughter of Sir Archibald Campbell? Since both Sir John and his father the king
had the same given name, that might have made it easier for the family
tradition to get a little garbled, so that the wife of Sir John got shifted back a
generation to become the mistress of Robert III.
One thing that would really help resolve these questions is if someone could
look at the documents that Bolton mentions. Unfortunately Bolton did not
follow proper bibliographical citation, and anyway many of the Stewart of Ardgowan
documents she was looking at were then in the private possession of the
family in Inverkip, Renfrewshire, and had never been catalogued. Most of them have
since been given to the library of the University of Glasgow, where they have
been properly catalogued. I'm not in any position to do the research
necessary to try to resolve these questions, but perhaps someone else can. Then we
might be able to figure out how Sir John and Sir Colin were brothers-in-law.
Jared Linn Olar
----------------
O vere beata nox, quae sola meruit scire tempus et horam, in qua Christus ab
inferis resurrexit!
"O truly blessed night, which alone deserved to know the time and hour in
which Christ rose from the realm of the dead!"
Hello All,
Jared Olar very kindly responded to my post this afternoon.
At his request, I am forwarding same to the group intact.
Jared, thanks for your detailed reply. I will digest and
reply to same as soon as possible.
Cheers,
John
John, thank you very much for bringing this information and your conjecture
to my attention. As you probably know, I have done a good deal of research on
the Stewarts of Blackhall and Ardgowan because of a descent from that family
that I have on my mother's side. (I have since determined that the descent
goes through the Campbell marriage to Margaret Stewart, daughter of Sir John
Stewart of Blackhall.) I haven't done a lot of looking into this family for a few
years though, and certain questions, such as this matter that you discuss,
have remained unresolved for me.
I'm not currently subscribed to Gen-Medieval, but in the near future I will
have a few other projects wrapped up and will have time once again to
participate in Gen-Medieval. If you would be kind enough to post my reply to
Gen-Medieval for me, I would very much appreciate it.
Regarding the question of the mother of Sir John Stewart, 1st of Blackhall
and Ardgowan, we find the following information in Beginning With Kings -- From
Royal Stewart to Shaw Stewart, 1989, by Janet S. Bolton, p.3:
"Before his marriage to Annabella Drummond and before being crippled, Robert
III had fathered two illegitimate sons, said to be full brothers. Their
mother was reputed to have been a young lady of noble birth, daughter to Sir
Archibald Campbell of Lochowe, Argyllshire."
Bolton does not say where she got that information, which I assumed to have
been based on a family tradition. I did not know of the Notes & Queries entry,
which is very interesting, because it mentions the Campbell of Lochawe
connection but does not specify Sir Archibald Campbell as the father.
Bolton's information is a real puzzler, because it seems to contradict
another bit of information she had on p.4, which says:
"There were other grants of lands to Sir John Stewart, among them an entry of
a Charter to John Stewart of Achingowan of the 'lands of Stron in the Barony
of Cowall with ane taillie'. In another Roll of Robert III, there is a grant
to 'Colin Campbell of Lochow of lands in Neather Cowall which pertained to
John Stewart of Achingowan, son natural to the King.' As these lands were in the
centre of the district belonging to the Argylls (sic), it would seem to led
credence to the belief that Sir John Stewart was connected to the Argylls and
that this connection was through his mother. That Sir John Stewart had also
married a Campbell arises from a reference made to his 'brother-in-law' Sir Colin
Campbell, in a later grant. In 1402, Sir John Stewart made a grant to the
Church of Dunoon, of the fourth part of the lands of Finvachan in Cowall 'for
the safety of his soul and for the souls of his ancestors and successors' giving
further proof that he had connections in Argyllshire. These lands were
afterwards resigned by Sir John into the hands of the King, for the purpose of
granting them to Sir Colin Campbell."
It's true that the documentary evidence indicates some kind of kinship
between Sir John Stewart and the Campbells of Lochawe. However, if Sir John's
mother was a daughter of Sir Archibald, then how could Sir John be "brother-in-law"
of Sir Archibald's son Sir Colin? Surely Sir John couldn't have married his
mother's sister! I'm not aware of any evidence that Sir Colin married a
sister of Sir John. So we seem to be faced with a documentary reference to a
"brother-in-law" relationship between Sir Colin and Sir John which would be
incompatible with the tradition that Bolton mentions that identifies Sir John's
mother as Sir Colin's sister. Did Sir John marry a sister of Sir Colin? Is that
where the tradition came from that Sir John's mother belonged to the family of
the Campbells of Lochawe, from a misremembering of Sir John's marriage to a
daughter of Sir Archibald Campbell? Since both Sir John and his father the king
had the same given name, that might have made it easier for the family
tradition to get a little garbled, so that the wife of Sir John got shifted back a
generation to become the mistress of Robert III.
One thing that would really help resolve these questions is if someone could
look at the documents that Bolton mentions. Unfortunately Bolton did not
follow proper bibliographical citation, and anyway many of the Stewart of Ardgowan
documents she was looking at were then in the private possession of the
family in Inverkip, Renfrewshire, and had never been catalogued. Most of them have
since been given to the library of the University of Glasgow, where they have
been properly catalogued. I'm not in any position to do the research
necessary to try to resolve these questions, but perhaps someone else can. Then we
might be able to figure out how Sir John and Sir Colin were brothers-in-law.
Jared Linn Olar
----------------
O vere beata nox, quae sola meruit scire tempus et horam, in qua Christus ab
inferis resurrexit!
"O truly blessed night, which alone deserved to know the time and hour in
which Christ rose from the realm of the dead!"
-
Gjest
Re: Napoleon Descendant of King Charles II???
In a message dated 5/24/06 3:54:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Prince Michael of Albany spells out that (same) line
Charles II = Marguerite de Rohan
James (Giacomo) de Rohano-Stuardo >>
I'm sorry did you say Charlatan Michael of Albany ?
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Prince Michael of Albany spells out that (same) line
Charles II = Marguerite de Rohan
James (Giacomo) de Rohano-Stuardo >>
I'm sorry did you say Charlatan Michael of Albany ?
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Napoleon Descendant of King Charles II???
Could have 
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: Napoleon Descendant of King Charles II???
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: Napoleon Descendant of King Charles II???
In a message dated 5/24/06 3:54:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
Prince Michael of Albany spells out that (same) line
Charles II = Marguerite de Rohan
James (Giacomo) de Rohano-Stuardo
I'm sorry did you say Charlatan Michael of Albany ?
-
Gjest
Re: Heraldry: Ralph Sheldon of Beoley / Anne Throckmorton
In a message dated 5/24/2006 8:02:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bales14@tpg.com.au writes:
And just out of interest, I have this Anne Throckmorton on a collateral line
but don't have any details as to her parents and the link back to the main
Throckmorton line which I have as direct ancestors on other branches of my
tree.
Can anyone help with the linkage?
Here you go
_http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=wjroyals&id=I9231&style=TEX
T_
(http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... style=TEXT)
Will
bales14@tpg.com.au writes:
And just out of interest, I have this Anne Throckmorton on a collateral line
but don't have any details as to her parents and the link back to the main
Throckmorton line which I have as direct ancestors on other branches of my
tree.
Can anyone help with the linkage?
Here you go
_http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=wjroyals&id=I9231&style=TEX
T_
(http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... style=TEXT)
Will
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: Boklerplaiers
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Oh yes, I see - now we know that one of the boklerplaiers killed the
other it's obvious boklerplaier wasn't their occupation, it was just
what they were doing at the time.
Here are some relevant definitions from the OED:
"buckler-play, -playing, -player, fencing, a fencer"
"to play at bucklers, at sword and buckler: to fence"
"sword-and-buckler a., armed with or using a sword and buckler;
pertaining to or performed with sword and buckler; fig. bragging,
blustering (obs.)"
Interestingly, it turns out that in the fifteenth century a
buckler-maker was called ... a buckler-maker:
"1415 in York Myst. Introd. 23 *Bukler-makers.
1483 Cath. Angl. 36 A Bock[el]ere maker, peltarius.
c1500 Cocke Lorell's B. (1843) 9 Bokeler makers, dyers, and lether
sellers."
Matt Tompkins
Richard de Bulkele and William de Northamptone
Boklerplaiers. The Rolls recorded that Northamptone
was responsible for Bulkele's death.
He killed him during a sword-fight exercise. They were training.
I wonder if that was considered accidental ?
Oh yes, I see - now we know that one of the boklerplaiers killed the
other it's obvious boklerplaier wasn't their occupation, it was just
what they were doing at the time.
Here are some relevant definitions from the OED:
"buckler-play, -playing, -player, fencing, a fencer"
"to play at bucklers, at sword and buckler: to fence"
"sword-and-buckler a., armed with or using a sword and buckler;
pertaining to or performed with sword and buckler; fig. bragging,
blustering (obs.)"
Interestingly, it turns out that in the fifteenth century a
buckler-maker was called ... a buckler-maker:
"1415 in York Myst. Introd. 23 *Bukler-makers.
1483 Cath. Angl. 36 A Bock[el]ere maker, peltarius.
c1500 Cocke Lorell's B. (1843) 9 Bokeler makers, dyers, and lether
sellers."
Matt Tompkins
-
Gjest
Re: Boklerplaiers
In a message dated 5/24/2006 4:27:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
designeconomic@yahoo.com writes:
Richard de Bulkele and William de Northamptone
Boklerplaiers. The Rolls recorded that Northamptone
was responsible for Bulkele's death.
He killed him during a sword-fight exercise. They were training.
I wonder if that was considered accidental ?
designeconomic@yahoo.com writes:
Richard de Bulkele and William de Northamptone
Boklerplaiers. The Rolls recorded that Northamptone
was responsible for Bulkele's death.
He killed him during a sword-fight exercise. They were training.
I wonder if that was considered accidental ?
-
Matt Tompkins
Re: Boklerplaier = swashbuckler
"buckler-play, -playing, -player, fencing, a fencer"
"to play at bucklers, at sword and buckler: to fence"
"sword-and-buckler a., armed with or using a sword and buckler;
pertaining to or performed with sword and buckler; fig. bragging,
blustering (obs.)"
It's just dawned on me that this must be the origin of the expression
swashbuckler, and the OED confirms it; a swashbuckler is:
"A swaggering bravo or ruffian; a noisy braggadocio.[f. swash v. +
buckler n; hence lit. one who makes a noise by striking his own or his
opponent's shield with his sword.]
The verb 'swash' means: "To dash or cast violently" or "To make a noise
as of swords clashing or of a sword beating on a shield; to fence with
swords; to bluster with or as with weapons; to lash out; hence, to
swagger."
Apologies to everyone who already knew that.
Matt Tompkins
-
Gjest
Re: Alberto Azzo II
In a message dated 5/25/06 10:14:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:
<< Wondering if anyone knows where Alberto Azzo II, Markgraf v.Este died?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Azz ... e_of_Milan
has him dying 1097, at 100 years of age.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 6&tree=LEO
date of death for Azzo II is 15 Dec, 1128 which would make
him 131 years old when he died. >>
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan.
Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
Also agrees that he died in 1097, but they do not specify any birth year
Here they call him Margrave of Este and only report here on two sons (without
saying this is exhaustive), towit
Guelph IV, Duke of Bavaria d 1101 and Fulk I Margrave of Este d 1128
They trace Fulk forward to at least the late 19th century so it's likely he
has modern day descendents by the way.
Guelph they state is ancestral to the House of Hanover and so likely to the
modern Queen of England among others.
Will Johnson
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:
<< Wondering if anyone knows where Alberto Azzo II, Markgraf v.Este died?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Azz ... e_of_Milan
has him dying 1097, at 100 years of age.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 6&tree=LEO
date of death for Azzo II is 15 Dec, 1128 which would make
him 131 years old when he died. >>
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan.
Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
Also agrees that he died in 1097, but they do not specify any birth year
Here they call him Margrave of Este and only report here on two sons (without
saying this is exhaustive), towit
Guelph IV, Duke of Bavaria d 1101 and Fulk I Margrave of Este d 1128
They trace Fulk forward to at least the late 19th century so it's likely he
has modern day descendents by the way.
Guelph they state is ancestral to the House of Hanover and so likely to the
modern Queen of England among others.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Alberto Azzo II
In a message dated 5/25/06 10:14:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:
<< Gersende was a daughter of Herbert I, Count of Maine, whose
father, Hugh I, was the first Count of Le Mans, from which
town the county took its name. Herbert I had also a son,
Hugh II, whose only son, Herbert II, died c.1063, s.p.
Gersende's sisters were Biotte, ctss of Mayenne, and Paule,
who married Lancelin I of Beaugency.
Did not this Paula also marry Jean, Seigneur de La Fleche and thereby have a
child Helias (Elias) Count of Maine who, he, married Matilda and then Agnes of
Aquitaine
Thanks
Will Johnson
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:
<< Gersende was a daughter of Herbert I, Count of Maine, whose
father, Hugh I, was the first Count of Le Mans, from which
town the county took its name. Herbert I had also a son,
Hugh II, whose only son, Herbert II, died c.1063, s.p.
Gersende's sisters were Biotte, ctss of Mayenne, and Paule,
who married Lancelin I of Beaugency.
Did not this Paula also marry Jean, Seigneur de La Fleche and thereby have a
child Helias (Elias) Count of Maine who, he, married Matilda and then Agnes of
Aquitaine
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Alberto Azzo II
In a message dated 5/25/06 10:14:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:
<< She was the second wife of Alberto Azzo II (d. 1097), who
had had one son,Welf IV of Bavaria, by his first wife. (He
later married a third time,childlessly, to a certain
Mathilda, sister of William, Bishop of Pavia.) By Gersende
he was the father of two sons, Fulk (d. 1128), father of
Obizzo I, father of Azzo V ... etc., the house of Este; and
Hugh III, count of Maine, who died in 1097. >>
Theobald Count of Blois died in 1089.
Did he divorce Gersende ? If not then she could only have married Alberto
1089/97 which would give no time for Hugh III to be born, have a child and then
die by 1097
Will Johnson
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:
<< She was the second wife of Alberto Azzo II (d. 1097), who
had had one son,Welf IV of Bavaria, by his first wife. (He
later married a third time,childlessly, to a certain
Mathilda, sister of William, Bishop of Pavia.) By Gersende
he was the father of two sons, Fulk (d. 1128), father of
Obizzo I, father of Azzo V ... etc., the house of Este; and
Hugh III, count of Maine, who died in 1097. >>
Theobald Count of Blois died in 1089.
Did he divorce Gersende ? If not then she could only have married Alberto
1089/97 which would give no time for Hugh III to be born, have a child and then
die by 1097
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/24/06 12:36:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< However, I suspect there may have been two Eudes la Zouche who occur in
rapid succession in the records. The first one occurs from 1251 to at
least 1262. He was granted the marriage of Agatha de Ferrers in 1253,
but did not marry her. The second one occurs from at least 1273 to
1279. He married before 1273 Milicent de Cantelowe. He died in 1279,
and was survived by his wife, Milicent, who died in 1299. He was the
one who presumably owned property at Syston, Leicestershire.
The two Eudes theory would leave unexplained the identity of the Eudes
la Zouche who occurs in the records in the period, 1263-1267. >>
Why? Why not expand the older Eudes to cover the period up to 1267. And
then the younger one starts appearing.
We need to see the actual text of these primary documents to see if this
theory is possible.
Perhaps this older Eudes was the brother of the William le Zouche of King's
Nympton who seems to be equally in confusion.
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< However, I suspect there may have been two Eudes la Zouche who occur in
rapid succession in the records. The first one occurs from 1251 to at
least 1262. He was granted the marriage of Agatha de Ferrers in 1253,
but did not marry her. The second one occurs from at least 1273 to
1279. He married before 1273 Milicent de Cantelowe. He died in 1279,
and was survived by his wife, Milicent, who died in 1299. He was the
one who presumably owned property at Syston, Leicestershire.
The two Eudes theory would leave unexplained the identity of the Eudes
la Zouche who occurs in the records in the period, 1263-1267. >>
Why? Why not expand the older Eudes to cover the period up to 1267. And
then the younger one starts appearing.
We need to see the actual text of these primary documents to see if this
theory is possible.
Perhaps this older Eudes was the brother of the William le Zouche of King's
Nympton who seems to be equally in confusion.
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/24/06 10:51:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:
<< Hiis testibus: Domino Rogero de Quency comite Wincestrie;
Domino Roberto de Quency; Philippo Lovell; Domino Saero de
Sancto Andrea; Domino Willelmo la Zuche; Domino Alvredo
de Soleny; Domino Roberto de Harucurd; Domino Ivone la
Zuche; Domino Henrico de Harucurd; Domino Johanne de
Granford; Domino Petro le Pot[er]; Domino Roberto de
Sancto Andrea. ' [1] >>
Can all these people be identified?
I'm only able to identify maybe five of them. For example who was Philip
Lovell and what is his connected to the Quincy/Zuche's ? I dont have a Saire
Lord of Saint Andrew.
This document, if nothing else, certainly seems to question what generation
Alan le Zouche was in, if his *sister* is marrying the *grandson* of Roger de
Quincy Earl of Winchester.
Will
<< Hiis testibus: Domino Rogero de Quency comite Wincestrie;
Domino Roberto de Quency; Philippo Lovell; Domino Saero de
Sancto Andrea; Domino Willelmo la Zuche; Domino Alvredo
de Soleny; Domino Roberto de Harucurd; Domino Ivone la
Zuche; Domino Henrico de Harucurd; Domino Johanne de
Granford; Domino Petro le Pot[er]; Domino Roberto de
Sancto Andrea. ' [1] >>
Can all these people be identified?
I'm only able to identify maybe five of them. For example who was Philip
Lovell and what is his connected to the Quincy/Zuche's ? I dont have a Saire
Lord of Saint Andrew.
This document, if nothing else, certainly seems to question what generation
Alan le Zouche was in, if his *sister* is marrying the *grandson* of Roger de
Quincy Earl of Winchester.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Campbell of Lochawe and Stewart of Ardgowan: a conjectur
In a message dated 5/24/06 3:22:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:
<< It's true that the documentary evidence indicates some kind of kinship
between Sir John Stewart and the Campbells of Lochawe. However, if Sir
John's
mother was a daughter of Sir Archibald, then how could Sir John be
"brother-in-law"
of Sir Archibald's son Sir Colin? Surely Sir John couldn't have married his
mother's sister! >>
That they each married two woman, who were themselves sisters of each other.
Will
writes:
<< It's true that the documentary evidence indicates some kind of kinship
between Sir John Stewart and the Campbells of Lochawe. However, if Sir
John's
mother was a daughter of Sir Archibald, then how could Sir John be
"brother-in-law"
of Sir Archibald's son Sir Colin? Surely Sir John couldn't have married his
mother's sister! >>
That they each married two woman, who were themselves sisters of each other.
Will
-
Ginny Wagner
RE: Alberto Azzo II
Hi Will,
According to Paul McBride,
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride ... .htm#I4396
Theobald III (1012-1089) and Gersende du Maine had Stephen
III of Blois, Count of Champagne (1046-1101), then Theobald
married Alix de Crepi and then Adele of France, Princess of
France. That would indicate that he'd divorced her or vice
versa early enough to remarry twice after. I don't have any
books or information on Theobald or Gersende, but the site
is pretty well resourced, I think.
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
Theobald Count of Blois died in 1089.
Did he divorce Gersende ?
According to Paul McBride,
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride ... .htm#I4396
Theobald III (1012-1089) and Gersende du Maine had Stephen
III of Blois, Count of Champagne (1046-1101), then Theobald
married Alix de Crepi and then Adele of France, Princess of
France. That would indicate that he'd divorced her or vice
versa early enough to remarry twice after. I don't have any
books or information on Theobald or Gersende, but the site
is pretty well resourced, I think.
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
-
Gjest
Re: Campbell of Lochawe and Stewart of Ardgowan: a conjectur
Thursday, 25 May, 2006
Dear Jared, Will, et al.,
Jared, I've had a chance to review the information you
forwarded yesterday, both re: your own research and that of Janet
Bolton.
The 'later charter' of Sir John Stewart, referencing Colin
Campbell as his 'brother-in-law' seems to be the essential
document needing review and comparison with the other
information in hand. This would appear to fly in the face of
the 1422 dispensation for the marriage of Sir Duncan Campbell
and Margaret Stewart (repeated below):
1. Based on the dispensation, there clearly was a common
relationship between Duncan and Margaret, but involving
a common great-grandparent (or -parents) of one being
identical to the great-great grandparent (or -parents)
of the other.
2. If Sir John Stewart (son of King Robert III) was a
brother in law of either Sir Colin Iongantach (a
contemporary of his father the King) or a later Campbell,
that connection would have nothing to do with Margaret
Stewart's ancestry, and would apparently involve an
additional (1st or 2nd) spouse for Sir John Stewart
(such as Will Johnson suggested today).
I wonder if this charter may actually be one involving Sir
John's son and successor, John Stewart of Ardgowan (d. ca. 1442)?
Sir Duncan Campbell had a younger brother Colin Campbell, of
Ardkinglas: the 'brother-in-law' reference might apply to that
Colin, and the younger John Stewart. Another possibility, John
Stewart 'the younger' may have married a sister of Sir Duncan
(and of Colin Campbell of Ardkinglas), a 'mirror-image' of the
known Campbell-Stewart marriage (again, similar to Will's
suggestion).
Cheers,
John
=============================
The record of dispensation for Sir Duncan Campbell and
his 2nd wife Margaret Stewart [dated St. Peter's Rome, 16
Kal. Feb. [17 Jan] 1422/3] gives the following:
' To the bishop of Argyll. Mandate to dispense Duncan
Cambell, temporal lord of the place of Lochawa, and
Margaret, daughter of Sir John Stewarte of Acchyngowan,
donsel, of his diocese, to marry notwithstanding that
they are related in the second and third degrees of
affinity and the third and fourth degrees of kindred.
Oblate nobis. ' [1]
The affinity relationship can be readily identified. Sir
Duncan Campbell's 1st wife was Marjory Stewart, a daughter
of Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany and thereby grand-
daughter of King Robert II: Margaret Stewart was a
granddaughter of the Duke's elder brother King Robert III,
so they were related in the 2nd [Marjory] and 3rd [Margaret]
degrees of consanguinity.
The third and fourth degree relationship between Sir
Duncan Campbell and Margaret Stewart is not currently
proveable, primarily due to the maternal gaps in the
ancestry of the Stewarts of Ardgowan, but based on this
and the traditional Campbell connection of King Robert III's
mistress I would suggest that Sir John Stewart of Ardgowan's
mother was a daughter of John Campbell, younger son of Sir
Colin Campbell and his wife Helen de Menteith and ancestor
of the Campbells of Succoth. The relationship would then
appear as follows:
[ NOTE: this chart is conjectural. Those connections
not proven are indicated thus: ...........
Illegitimate connections, thus: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]
Sir Colin Campbell = Helen de Menteith
_____________________________I__________
I I
Archibald (Gilleasbeg) John = NN
d. ca. 1390 = Isabella Campbell :
I Lamont :..........
I :
Sir Colin 'Iongantach' King Robert III ~ NN
fl. ca. 1336 - 1412 fl. ca. 1335-1406 I
I _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _I _ _
I I I
I Sir John Stewart James Stewart
I of Ardgowan of Kilbride
I I
I I
1) Marjory = Sir Duncan = 2) Margaret
Stewart Campbell Stewart
NOTES
[1] Tremlow, ed. Cal. Papal Reg. VII:259.
Dear Jared, Will, et al.,
Jared, I've had a chance to review the information you
forwarded yesterday, both re: your own research and that of Janet
Bolton.
The 'later charter' of Sir John Stewart, referencing Colin
Campbell as his 'brother-in-law' seems to be the essential
document needing review and comparison with the other
information in hand. This would appear to fly in the face of
the 1422 dispensation for the marriage of Sir Duncan Campbell
and Margaret Stewart (repeated below):
1. Based on the dispensation, there clearly was a common
relationship between Duncan and Margaret, but involving
a common great-grandparent (or -parents) of one being
identical to the great-great grandparent (or -parents)
of the other.
2. If Sir John Stewart (son of King Robert III) was a
brother in law of either Sir Colin Iongantach (a
contemporary of his father the King) or a later Campbell,
that connection would have nothing to do with Margaret
Stewart's ancestry, and would apparently involve an
additional (1st or 2nd) spouse for Sir John Stewart
(such as Will Johnson suggested today).
I wonder if this charter may actually be one involving Sir
John's son and successor, John Stewart of Ardgowan (d. ca. 1442)?
Sir Duncan Campbell had a younger brother Colin Campbell, of
Ardkinglas: the 'brother-in-law' reference might apply to that
Colin, and the younger John Stewart. Another possibility, John
Stewart 'the younger' may have married a sister of Sir Duncan
(and of Colin Campbell of Ardkinglas), a 'mirror-image' of the
known Campbell-Stewart marriage (again, similar to Will's
suggestion).
Cheers,
John
=============================
The record of dispensation for Sir Duncan Campbell and
his 2nd wife Margaret Stewart [dated St. Peter's Rome, 16
Kal. Feb. [17 Jan] 1422/3] gives the following:
' To the bishop of Argyll. Mandate to dispense Duncan
Cambell, temporal lord of the place of Lochawa, and
Margaret, daughter of Sir John Stewarte of Acchyngowan,
donsel, of his diocese, to marry notwithstanding that
they are related in the second and third degrees of
affinity and the third and fourth degrees of kindred.
Oblate nobis. ' [1]
The affinity relationship can be readily identified. Sir
Duncan Campbell's 1st wife was Marjory Stewart, a daughter
of Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany and thereby grand-
daughter of King Robert II: Margaret Stewart was a
granddaughter of the Duke's elder brother King Robert III,
so they were related in the 2nd [Marjory] and 3rd [Margaret]
degrees of consanguinity.
The third and fourth degree relationship between Sir
Duncan Campbell and Margaret Stewart is not currently
proveable, primarily due to the maternal gaps in the
ancestry of the Stewarts of Ardgowan, but based on this
and the traditional Campbell connection of King Robert III's
mistress I would suggest that Sir John Stewart of Ardgowan's
mother was a daughter of John Campbell, younger son of Sir
Colin Campbell and his wife Helen de Menteith and ancestor
of the Campbells of Succoth. The relationship would then
appear as follows:
[ NOTE: this chart is conjectural. Those connections
not proven are indicated thus: ...........
Illegitimate connections, thus: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ]
Sir Colin Campbell = Helen de Menteith
_____________________________I__________
I I
Archibald (Gilleasbeg) John = NN
d. ca. 1390 = Isabella Campbell :
I Lamont :..........
I :
Sir Colin 'Iongantach' King Robert III ~ NN
fl. ca. 1336 - 1412 fl. ca. 1335-1406 I
I _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _I _ _
I I I
I Sir John Stewart James Stewart
I of Ardgowan of Kilbride
I I
I I
1) Marjory = Sir Duncan = 2) Margaret
Stewart Campbell Stewart
NOTES
[1] Tremlow, ed. Cal. Papal Reg. VII:259.
-
Ginny Wagner
RE: Alberto Azzo II
Did not this Paula also marry Jean, Seigneur de La Fleche
and thereby have a child Helias (Elias) Count of Maine who,
he, married Matilda and then Agnes of Aquitaine
I think this partially answers your question:
http://francebalade.free.fr/maine/ctmaine.htm
Hugues V (+1097)
C'est le fils de Albert Azzo d'Este et de Gersende, la fille
de Herbert Eveille Chien. Son frere Foulques est Marquis
d'Este et reste en Italie. Hugues V epousa une fille de
Robert Guiscard, le celebre Roi de Sicile. Sa fille Paule
epouse Jean de La Fleche (fils de Lancelin de Beaugency et
de Haberge). Ils ont pour fils Helie qui suit.
Helie (1060-1110)
Fils de Jean de la Fleche et petit fils de Hugues V. Il
epouse Mathilde de Chateau du Loir, fille de Gervais
Seigneur de Chateau du Loir et de Eremburge. Leur fille
Ermengarde (1096-1126) epousa Foulques V le Jeune Comte
d'Anjou puis Roi de Jerusalem. Ceci permit le rattachement
definitif du Maine a l'Anjou.
Best,
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
-
Gjest
Re: Alberto Azzo II
In a message dated 5/25/06 1:29:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:
<< Hugues V (+1097)
C'est le fils de Albert Azzo d'Este et de Gersende, la fille
de Herbert Eveille Chien. Son frere Foulques est Marquis
d'Este et reste en Italie. Hugues V epousa une fille de
Robert Guiscard, le celebre Roi de Sicile. Sa fille Paule
epouse Jean de La Fleche (fils de Lancelin de Beaugency et
de Haberge). Ils ont pour fils Helie qui suit. >>
It's still confused until we can find the definitive statement that Gersende
and Theobald got a divorce and when.
Will
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:
<< Hugues V (+1097)
C'est le fils de Albert Azzo d'Este et de Gersende, la fille
de Herbert Eveille Chien. Son frere Foulques est Marquis
d'Este et reste en Italie. Hugues V epousa une fille de
Robert Guiscard, le celebre Roi de Sicile. Sa fille Paule
epouse Jean de La Fleche (fils de Lancelin de Beaugency et
de Haberge). Ils ont pour fils Helie qui suit. >>
It's still confused until we can find the definitive statement that Gersende
and Theobald got a divorce and when.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Alberto Azzo II
Here we go
"Orderici Vitalis Ecclesiasticae Historiae, Libri Tredecim", Ordericus
Vitalis, Benjamin Edme Charles Guérard, Léopold Delisle. Parisiis, E Typis Crapelet.
1845
page 115
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... 115&lpg=PA
115&dq=gersende+maine&as_brr=1
"Nous ne[?] pouvons croire que notre auteur ait[?] voulu parler ici de Berte
de Champagne, d'abord duchesse de Bretagne, puis comtesse du Maine. Voyez
ci-dessus, tome II, p 393. Nous aimons mieux supposer qu'il aura eu en vue
Gersende, fille d'Herbert-Eveille-Chien, comte du Maine, belle-soeur de Berte par
son mariage avec Thibaud, comte de Champagne, puis repudiee par ce seigneur, et
remariee a Azzon, marquis de Ligurie."
My French isn't great but I think this says that Thibaud repudiated her.
Will Johnson
"Orderici Vitalis Ecclesiasticae Historiae, Libri Tredecim", Ordericus
Vitalis, Benjamin Edme Charles Guérard, Léopold Delisle. Parisiis, E Typis Crapelet.
1845
page 115
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... 115&lpg=PA
115&dq=gersende+maine&as_brr=1
"Nous ne[?] pouvons croire que notre auteur ait[?] voulu parler ici de Berte
de Champagne, d'abord duchesse de Bretagne, puis comtesse du Maine. Voyez
ci-dessus, tome II, p 393. Nous aimons mieux supposer qu'il aura eu en vue
Gersende, fille d'Herbert-Eveille-Chien, comte du Maine, belle-soeur de Berte par
son mariage avec Thibaud, comte de Champagne, puis repudiee par ce seigneur, et
remariee a Azzon, marquis de Ligurie."
My French isn't great but I think this says that Thibaud repudiated her.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
On Thu, 25 May 2006 19:04:56 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Copied from " The Knights of Edward I"
Zouche, Sr Eudo la, Kt. (Eoun, Youn, Ivo. Ivonet). Gu. bezanty, a
canton erm. (St. George, Guillim). Grant of 30 m. p.a. till K. provide
more 27 Ap. 1261. Livery to him Chester Berton, and Shotwill Cas. of
P. Edw. to keep and defend, 26 Dec. 1262. Sum to K. at Windsor for
counsel 17 Oct. 1263. Eudo la Z. of Leic. mainperns Wm. de Huntingfeld
28 Jy. 1267, and others, and is mentioned 24 Dec. 1270 (P.R.). Livery
to him and w. Milicent, sis. coh. of Geo. de Cantilupo, manors late of
said George at Eyton, Houtan in Beds., Haringworth, Beruby, Rowell,
and Bolewik, Northants., Bridgewater and Edenworth, Som., Calston,
Bridmerston, Roele, and Calne, Wilts., Corneworthy, Dartmouth, and
Totness, Devon, Moles-Bracy, Salop, Stok St. Edwald, Dors., Hamme,
Bucks., Byngele, Yorks., Baseford, Notts., and Hereford, I Mar. (C.R.
and P.R.), with their share of his lands in Ireland 30 May 1274
(F.R.), and in Craudon Manor and rents at Newbury, Spenhamland, and
Wodespene Manors, Berks., 3 June 1275. He owes 1800 to Urn., E. of
Cornwall, in Northants., June 1276, and other sums later (C.R.). Grant
to him, and Milicent forfeiture in their ports so long as K. receives
custom an wool and hides exported 16 Nov. 1275 (P.R.). In Parl. at
Westminster 19 May 1276, and a Magnate in Council re Llewellyn and
Gilb., E. of Gloucester, 1276. Sumd to serve agst. Welsh, he
acknowledges 11/2 Fee for Milicent, and will serve in person with a
sergeant, I Jy. 1277 (Pill.). Safe conduct for him conveying corn and
victuals by his own sailors of Bridgewater, Totness, and Dartmouth to
Pembroke, Carmarthen, Kedewell and Sweyneseye for those serving agst.
Llewellyn, 7 May 1277. He and Millicent nominate attorneys in Ireland
14 June 1278, and have Protection there 28 Ap. 1279 (P.R.). He is dead
25 June 1279. She is dead 7 Jan. 1299, leavings. h. William la Z.
(F.R).
ZOUCHE, Sir Eudo la, Kt. (Ivo). De gul' besaunte dor i qart dermyne i
label dazur (Boro.). S. of Wm. fil. Eoun la Z. he has pardon re
Gaveston 16 Oct- 1313, and Protection, going to Scotland for K., 5
Aug. 1322 (P.R.). Joan, w. of Ivo la Z., is d. h. of VVm. Inge and w.
Margery, and has livery of lands held by said Wm. in right of said
Margery, dec., 12 Sep. 1322 (F.R.). A Kt. fit for service, he is a
Comr to array men from 16 to 60 in Bucks., 31 Oct. 1322, is sumd as a
Kt. of Herts. to Gt. Council at Westminster 9 May 1324 (P.W.), and is
dead 12 June 1326 holding 1/2 a windmill at Stanstede, Rent,
Tyledehall. Manor at Lachyndon, Ess., Cleyore Manor, Oxon., I of mess.
at Toternho by Dunstaple and mess. at lit. Gravenhurst, Beds., and
moiety of StokeMaundevile Manor by Aylesbury, Bucks., as 1/2 Fee, all
inheritance Of his w. Joan. He was indicted of death of Rog. de
Belers, went over seas sine lie., died in Paris last April, and was
buried in church Of the Augustine Friars there, his lands being taken
to K. for his flight, 15 Jy. 1326 (Inge).
Brendan Wilson
To Reply: remove [.] from around the dot. Stops Spam
Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.
In a message dated 5/24/06 12:36:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
However, I suspect there may have been two Eudes la Zouche who occur in
rapid succession in the records. The first one occurs from 1251 to at
least 1262.
Copied from " The Knights of Edward I"
Zouche, Sr Eudo la, Kt. (Eoun, Youn, Ivo. Ivonet). Gu. bezanty, a
canton erm. (St. George, Guillim). Grant of 30 m. p.a. till K. provide
more 27 Ap. 1261. Livery to him Chester Berton, and Shotwill Cas. of
P. Edw. to keep and defend, 26 Dec. 1262. Sum to K. at Windsor for
counsel 17 Oct. 1263. Eudo la Z. of Leic. mainperns Wm. de Huntingfeld
28 Jy. 1267, and others, and is mentioned 24 Dec. 1270 (P.R.). Livery
to him and w. Milicent, sis. coh. of Geo. de Cantilupo, manors late of
said George at Eyton, Houtan in Beds., Haringworth, Beruby, Rowell,
and Bolewik, Northants., Bridgewater and Edenworth, Som., Calston,
Bridmerston, Roele, and Calne, Wilts., Corneworthy, Dartmouth, and
Totness, Devon, Moles-Bracy, Salop, Stok St. Edwald, Dors., Hamme,
Bucks., Byngele, Yorks., Baseford, Notts., and Hereford, I Mar. (C.R.
and P.R.), with their share of his lands in Ireland 30 May 1274
(F.R.), and in Craudon Manor and rents at Newbury, Spenhamland, and
Wodespene Manors, Berks., 3 June 1275. He owes 1800 to Urn., E. of
Cornwall, in Northants., June 1276, and other sums later (C.R.). Grant
to him, and Milicent forfeiture in their ports so long as K. receives
custom an wool and hides exported 16 Nov. 1275 (P.R.). In Parl. at
Westminster 19 May 1276, and a Magnate in Council re Llewellyn and
Gilb., E. of Gloucester, 1276. Sumd to serve agst. Welsh, he
acknowledges 11/2 Fee for Milicent, and will serve in person with a
sergeant, I Jy. 1277 (Pill.). Safe conduct for him conveying corn and
victuals by his own sailors of Bridgewater, Totness, and Dartmouth to
Pembroke, Carmarthen, Kedewell and Sweyneseye for those serving agst.
Llewellyn, 7 May 1277. He and Millicent nominate attorneys in Ireland
14 June 1278, and have Protection there 28 Ap. 1279 (P.R.). He is dead
25 June 1279. She is dead 7 Jan. 1299, leavings. h. William la Z.
(F.R).
ZOUCHE, Sir Eudo la, Kt. (Ivo). De gul' besaunte dor i qart dermyne i
label dazur (Boro.). S. of Wm. fil. Eoun la Z. he has pardon re
Gaveston 16 Oct- 1313, and Protection, going to Scotland for K., 5
Aug. 1322 (P.R.). Joan, w. of Ivo la Z., is d. h. of VVm. Inge and w.
Margery, and has livery of lands held by said Wm. in right of said
Margery, dec., 12 Sep. 1322 (F.R.). A Kt. fit for service, he is a
Comr to array men from 16 to 60 in Bucks., 31 Oct. 1322, is sumd as a
Kt. of Herts. to Gt. Council at Westminster 9 May 1324 (P.W.), and is
dead 12 June 1326 holding 1/2 a windmill at Stanstede, Rent,
Tyledehall. Manor at Lachyndon, Ess., Cleyore Manor, Oxon., I of mess.
at Toternho by Dunstaple and mess. at lit. Gravenhurst, Beds., and
moiety of StokeMaundevile Manor by Aylesbury, Bucks., as 1/2 Fee, all
inheritance Of his w. Joan. He was indicted of death of Rog. de
Belers, went over seas sine lie., died in Paris last April, and was
buried in church Of the Augustine Friars there, his lands being taken
to K. for his flight, 15 Jy. 1326 (Inge).
Brendan Wilson
To Reply: remove [.] from around the dot. Stops Spam
Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.
-
Ginny Wagner
RE: Alberto Azzo II
Good for you, Will. Here is a really botched translation:
"We can believe only our author has desired to say here,
first Berte, Duchess of Champagne, then Comtesse of the
Maine. See above, volume II, p 393. We prefer to suppose
that it will have had shown Gersende, daughter
d'Herbert-Eveille-Chien, count of the Maine, sister-in-law
of Berte by his marriage with Thibaud, count of Champagne,
then
repudiated by this lord, and remarried to Azzo, Marquis of
Ligurie. "
The question remains, where did Azzo die?
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
"We can believe only our author has desired to say here,
first Berte, Duchess of Champagne, then Comtesse of the
Maine. See above, volume II, p 393. We prefer to suppose
that it will have had shown Gersende, daughter
d'Herbert-Eveille-Chien, count of the Maine, sister-in-law
of Berte by his marriage with Thibaud, count of Champagne,
then
repudiated by this lord, and remarried to Azzo, Marquis of
Ligurie. "
The question remains, where did Azzo die?
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/25/06 4:08:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
wilson97@paradise.net[.]nz writes:
<< Zouche, Sr Eudo la, Kt. (Eoun, Youn, Ivo. Ivonet). Gu. bezanty, a
canton erm. (St. George, Guillim). Grant of 30 m. p.a. till K. provide
more 27 Ap. 1261. >>
The theory that Douglas is putting forth, is that this one is actually two
seperate people. One the brother of Alan, and one the son of Alan
wilson97@paradise.net[.]nz writes:
<< Zouche, Sr Eudo la, Kt. (Eoun, Youn, Ivo. Ivonet). Gu. bezanty, a
canton erm. (St. George, Guillim). Grant of 30 m. p.a. till K. provide
more 27 Ap. 1261. >>
The theory that Douglas is putting forth, is that this one is actually two
seperate people. One the brother of Alan, and one the son of Alan
-
Gjest
Re: Campbell of Lochawe and Stewart of Ardgowan: a conjectur
Thursday, 25 May, 2006
Hello All,
Jared responded to my last post, and asked that I forward his
response to the list (see below).
Cheers,
John
Subj: Re: Campbell of Lochawe and Stewart of Ardgowan: a conjecture
Date: 5/25/2006 8:58:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: ardgowan@insightbb.com (ardgowan)
John, you're absolutely correct that the "later charter" that Bolton mentions
is a key document for understanding this question. It had not occurred to me
that it might be Sir John's son and heir John who was "brother-in-law" of a
Colin Campbell who was not Sir Colin Campbell of Lochawe, but you're right that
Bolton may have misinterpreted the "later charter" (which she frustratingly
failed to describe or quote in any identifiable fashion). I have found other
mistakes in Bolton's book (most notably, the confusion of Robert Lyle of Duchal
with Robert Boyd of Kilmarnock, a.k.a. Robert Boyd of Duchal), and I was
aware that Bolton may have been mistaken in some way about this "brother-in-law"
matter. If we can find this "later charter," it may well turn out to be a
charter of John, 2nd of Ardgowan, not John, 1st of Ardgowan, as you said. The
possibilities you mention are very fascinating.
As for Will's pointing out that "brother-in-law" could mean Sir John and Sir
Colin married sisters, although I didn't mention that possibility in my email,
I did discuss it in my article, "The Stewarts of Blackhall, Ardgowan, and
Auchingowan -- Part One" (Journal of Ancient & Medieval Studies XIV 1997,
pp.44-52). However, at that time I had not seen the dispensation for the marriage of
Duncan Campbell and Margaret Stewart. In my JAMS article, I speculated (one
of several speculations that I discussed) that the "brother-in-law" reference
may have actually had to do with the brother-in-law relationship between Sir
Colin and King Robert III (John), for Robert III's wife Annabella apparently
was the sister of Sir Colin's first wife Margaret. But, as I wrote in 1997,
"relying only upon Bolton, without seeing the document under discussion, it is
impossible to draw any final conclusions . . . This matter requires much further
investigation before it can be settled."
Of course, if Bolton's "later charter" really is "later," it would increase
the likelihood that it refers to a different, younger Colin, not Sir Colin
Campbell of Lochawe. But until we find it and see what it says, we won't be able
to resolve these questions.
If you would be so kind as to again post this to the list, I would be very
grateful.
Thanks.
Jared Linn Olar
----------------
O vere beata nox, quae sola meruit scire tempus et horam, in qua Christus ab
inferis resurrexit!
"O truly blessed night, which alone deserved to know the time and hour in
which Christ rose from the realm of the dead!"
Hello All,
Jared responded to my last post, and asked that I forward his
response to the list (see below).
Cheers,
John
Subj: Re: Campbell of Lochawe and Stewart of Ardgowan: a conjecture
Date: 5/25/2006 8:58:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: ardgowan@insightbb.com (ardgowan)
John, you're absolutely correct that the "later charter" that Bolton mentions
is a key document for understanding this question. It had not occurred to me
that it might be Sir John's son and heir John who was "brother-in-law" of a
Colin Campbell who was not Sir Colin Campbell of Lochawe, but you're right that
Bolton may have misinterpreted the "later charter" (which she frustratingly
failed to describe or quote in any identifiable fashion). I have found other
mistakes in Bolton's book (most notably, the confusion of Robert Lyle of Duchal
with Robert Boyd of Kilmarnock, a.k.a. Robert Boyd of Duchal), and I was
aware that Bolton may have been mistaken in some way about this "brother-in-law"
matter. If we can find this "later charter," it may well turn out to be a
charter of John, 2nd of Ardgowan, not John, 1st of Ardgowan, as you said. The
possibilities you mention are very fascinating.
As for Will's pointing out that "brother-in-law" could mean Sir John and Sir
Colin married sisters, although I didn't mention that possibility in my email,
I did discuss it in my article, "The Stewarts of Blackhall, Ardgowan, and
Auchingowan -- Part One" (Journal of Ancient & Medieval Studies XIV 1997,
pp.44-52). However, at that time I had not seen the dispensation for the marriage of
Duncan Campbell and Margaret Stewart. In my JAMS article, I speculated (one
of several speculations that I discussed) that the "brother-in-law" reference
may have actually had to do with the brother-in-law relationship between Sir
Colin and King Robert III (John), for Robert III's wife Annabella apparently
was the sister of Sir Colin's first wife Margaret. But, as I wrote in 1997,
"relying only upon Bolton, without seeing the document under discussion, it is
impossible to draw any final conclusions . . . This matter requires much further
investigation before it can be settled."
Of course, if Bolton's "later charter" really is "later," it would increase
the likelihood that it refers to a different, younger Colin, not Sir Colin
Campbell of Lochawe. But until we find it and see what it says, we won't be able
to resolve these questions.
If you would be so kind as to again post this to the list, I would be very
grateful.
Thanks.
Jared Linn Olar
----------------
O vere beata nox, quae sola meruit scire tempus et horam, in qua Christus ab
inferis resurrexit!
"O truly blessed night, which alone deserved to know the time and hour in
which Christ rose from the realm of the dead!"
-
Gjest
Re: Translation if possible?
In a message dated 5/25/06 8:00:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ttg-inc@comcast.net writes:
<< "Humffredus et Joannes didymi filii Owen Humffrey sepulti sunt ffeb: 26,
1653 Sepulturâ asine sepulti [sine] ministro & debito mortuori ritu." >>
Wow twin sons.
He named one Humphrey Humphrey ?
ttg-inc@comcast.net writes:
<< "Humffredus et Joannes didymi filii Owen Humffrey sepulti sunt ffeb: 26,
1653 Sepulturâ asine sepulti [sine] ministro & debito mortuori ritu." >>
Wow twin sons.
He named one Humphrey Humphrey ?
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
Friday, 26 May, 2006
Dear Doug, et al.,
Whilst doing some initial rooting about re: Syston, Leics. I
noted an additional item which also places the date of the first
document you cited (12 May 2006)[1] as no later than 12 March 1280/1.
That entry was roughly dated "1283-86?", but the record given in CP
concerning Margaret de Quincy, Countess of Derby (or Ferrers) states:
' She d. shortly before 12 Mar. 1280/1. ' [2]
Therefore, it appears that particular document should be dated
prior to the above date.
With regard to the marriage date of Euphemia de Clavering and
Ranulf de Neville, I noted that the marriage can now be placed as
"no later than 25 December 1280" [end of Michaelmas term, 9 Edw I],
and "probably earlier than 16 Nov 1280" [start of the regnal year
9 Edw I, falling during Michaelmas term 1280] based on the entry
you cited from De Banco Roll 36 [3].
One additional item: you had made reference to Margaret de
Quincy's son Sir William of Groby, and a record of settlement of
the advowson of Syston in 10 Edward II (1316-1317) [4]. Please
note that this was Margaret's grandson Sir William: her son Sir
William de Ferrers, of Groby, co. Leics., Newbottle, Northants.,
Woodham Ferrers, Stebbing and Fairsted, Essex, and Bolton-le-Moors,
co. Lancs., had died before 20 Dec 1287 [5].
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] "54. [Date: 1283-86?].
Letter to J[ohn] de Kirkeby, archdeacon, from H. de Walcote, his clerk.
He has received the attorneys of Ranulph Fitz Robert de Nevile and
Eufemia, his wife, namely John Cort and Ranulph Schoulard, in the plea
before the justices of the bench between Margery de Ferrars, countess
of Derby, Elena, widow of Alan la Suche, Alexander, earl of Buchan, and
Elizabet', his wife, plaintiffs, and Ranulph and Eufemia, defendants,
over 11-1/2 virgates in Sydeston. Asks for a writ to the justices
concerning this. [SC 1/8/139]." END OF QUOTE.
[2] CP IV:198, cites " Fine Roll, 9 Edw. I, m. 16; Patent Roll,
m. 25."
[3] De Banco Roll 36. Michaelmas, 9 Edward I. 1280. m. 113d.
Leic.:
Milicent who was the wife of Eudo la Zouche v. Ralph de Nevill
and Eufemia his wife in a plea of a third part of 12 messuages,
4 cottages, 11 virgates of land, etc., in Sytheston [Syston] as
dower.
[4] From: Douglas Richardson
Date: Fri, May 12 2006 8:18 pm
Groups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, another possibility regarding the
identity of Sydeston is that it is Syston, Leicestershire, which
property was held by Margaret de Quincy's son, Sir William de Ferrers,
of Groby, Leicestershire. I find that the manor of Groby and the
advowson of Syston, Leicestershire were settled by William de Ferrers
on himself and his wife, Ellen, and their issue in 10 Edward II
(1316-1317), as indicated below:
C 143/123/11: William de Ferariis to settle the manor of Groby and the
advowson of the church of Syston on himself, Ellen his wife, and the
heirs of their bodies, with remainder to Mordac de Meneteith and his
heirs, retaining the manors of Stebbing, Woodham Ferrars, Fairsted
(Essex), and Newbottle and Farndon (N'hamp).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
[5] My notes re: Sir William de Ferrers, son of Margaret de
Quincy include the following:
Sir William de Ferrers (d. bef 20 Dec 1287)
of Groby, co. Leics., Newbottle, Northants., Woodham Ferrers,
Stebbing and Fairsted, Essex, and Bolton-le-Moors, co. Lancs.
younger son
received manors of Woodham, Stebbing, capital messuage of Chiche
and Fairsted to hold of father and his heirs by the service of
five knights' fees, 12 Dec 1251
had livery of these lands ca 1256, then exchanged them with his
mother for lands in 'Galloway and Scotland', including
Leuchars, co. Fife [see CP Vol V, p. 343n] [received these
English lands back from his mother prior to her death, Feb
1280/81 - had livery of same, 11 May 1281]
fought on the baronial side at Northampton, 5 Apr 1264 and
captured; returned to the King's peace after 5 Jan 1264/65
received grant of Groby, co. Leics. from mother, before 26 May
1280 (SP, Lord of Galloway, p. 142) on which date:
' 175. The K. for a fine of 40 marks, permits William
de Ferrers to hold the manor of Groby in capite, in which Margaret
de Ferrers, his mother, has enfeoffed him. Westminster. '
[Bain I:57, cites Originalia of Edw. I, m. 9]
summoned to attend the King at Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283 by
writ directed 'Willelmo de Ferrariis'
* John P. Ravilious
Dear Doug, et al.,
Whilst doing some initial rooting about re: Syston, Leics. I
noted an additional item which also places the date of the first
document you cited (12 May 2006)[1] as no later than 12 March 1280/1.
That entry was roughly dated "1283-86?", but the record given in CP
concerning Margaret de Quincy, Countess of Derby (or Ferrers) states:
' She d. shortly before 12 Mar. 1280/1. ' [2]
Therefore, it appears that particular document should be dated
prior to the above date.
With regard to the marriage date of Euphemia de Clavering and
Ranulf de Neville, I noted that the marriage can now be placed as
"no later than 25 December 1280" [end of Michaelmas term, 9 Edw I],
and "probably earlier than 16 Nov 1280" [start of the regnal year
9 Edw I, falling during Michaelmas term 1280] based on the entry
you cited from De Banco Roll 36 [3].
One additional item: you had made reference to Margaret de
Quincy's son Sir William of Groby, and a record of settlement of
the advowson of Syston in 10 Edward II (1316-1317) [4]. Please
note that this was Margaret's grandson Sir William: her son Sir
William de Ferrers, of Groby, co. Leics., Newbottle, Northants.,
Woodham Ferrers, Stebbing and Fairsted, Essex, and Bolton-le-Moors,
co. Lancs., had died before 20 Dec 1287 [5].
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] "54. [Date: 1283-86?].
Letter to J[ohn] de Kirkeby, archdeacon, from H. de Walcote, his clerk.
He has received the attorneys of Ranulph Fitz Robert de Nevile and
Eufemia, his wife, namely John Cort and Ranulph Schoulard, in the plea
before the justices of the bench between Margery de Ferrars, countess
of Derby, Elena, widow of Alan la Suche, Alexander, earl of Buchan, and
Elizabet', his wife, plaintiffs, and Ranulph and Eufemia, defendants,
over 11-1/2 virgates in Sydeston. Asks for a writ to the justices
concerning this. [SC 1/8/139]." END OF QUOTE.
[2] CP IV:198, cites " Fine Roll, 9 Edw. I, m. 16; Patent Roll,
m. 25."
[3] De Banco Roll 36. Michaelmas, 9 Edward I. 1280. m. 113d.
Leic.:
Milicent who was the wife of Eudo la Zouche v. Ralph de Nevill
and Eufemia his wife in a plea of a third part of 12 messuages,
4 cottages, 11 virgates of land, etc., in Sytheston [Syston] as
dower.
[4] From: Douglas Richardson
Date: Fri, May 12 2006 8:18 pm
Groups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, another possibility regarding the
identity of Sydeston is that it is Syston, Leicestershire, which
property was held by Margaret de Quincy's son, Sir William de Ferrers,
of Groby, Leicestershire. I find that the manor of Groby and the
advowson of Syston, Leicestershire were settled by William de Ferrers
on himself and his wife, Ellen, and their issue in 10 Edward II
(1316-1317), as indicated below:
C 143/123/11: William de Ferariis to settle the manor of Groby and the
advowson of the church of Syston on himself, Ellen his wife, and the
heirs of their bodies, with remainder to Mordac de Meneteith and his
heirs, retaining the manors of Stebbing, Woodham Ferrars, Fairsted
(Essex), and Newbottle and Farndon (N'hamp).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www. royalancestry. net
[5] My notes re: Sir William de Ferrers, son of Margaret de
Quincy include the following:
Sir William de Ferrers (d. bef 20 Dec 1287)
of Groby, co. Leics., Newbottle, Northants., Woodham Ferrers,
Stebbing and Fairsted, Essex, and Bolton-le-Moors, co. Lancs.
younger son
received manors of Woodham, Stebbing, capital messuage of Chiche
and Fairsted to hold of father and his heirs by the service of
five knights' fees, 12 Dec 1251
had livery of these lands ca 1256, then exchanged them with his
mother for lands in 'Galloway and Scotland', including
Leuchars, co. Fife [see CP Vol V, p. 343n] [received these
English lands back from his mother prior to her death, Feb
1280/81 - had livery of same, 11 May 1281]
fought on the baronial side at Northampton, 5 Apr 1264 and
captured; returned to the King's peace after 5 Jan 1264/65
received grant of Groby, co. Leics. from mother, before 26 May
1280 (SP, Lord of Galloway, p. 142) on which date:
' 175. The K. for a fine of 40 marks, permits William
de Ferrers to hold the manor of Groby in capite, in which Margaret
de Ferrers, his mother, has enfeoffed him. Westminster. '
[Bain I:57, cites Originalia of Edw. I, m. 9]
summoned to attend the King at Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283 by
writ directed 'Willelmo de Ferrariis'
* John P. Ravilious
-
David Teague
Re: Translation if possible?
Humphrey Owen(s), more likely.
David Teague
David Teague
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Translation if possible?
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:20:09 EDT
In a message dated 5/25/06 8:00:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ttg-inc@comcast.net writes:
"Humffredus et Joannes didymi filii Owen Humffrey sepulti sunt ffeb: 26,
1653 Sepulturâ asine sepulti [sine] ministro & debito mortuori ritu."
Wow twin sons.
He named one Humphrey Humphrey ?
-
Peter MEAZEY
Re: Translation
Humphrey Owen(s), more likely.
David Teague
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Translation if possible?
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:20:09 EDT
In a message dated 5/25/06 8:00:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ttg-inc@comcast.net writes:
"Humffredus et Joannes didymi filii Owen Humffrey sepulti sunt
ffeb: 26,
1653 Sepulturâ asine sepulti [sine] ministro & debito mortuori
ritu."
Wow twin sons.
He named one Humphrey Humphrey ?
This all sounds very Welsh to me - and if so David could well be right
and the names should be Owain ap Humphrey, father to Humphrey ab Owain
and Ioan ab Owain. Garglefish (translating with a glass of pure malt in
one hand and the dictionary somewhere behind the aquarium in the garage)
gives "Sepulturâ asine sepulti [sine] ministro etc." as meaning
something about donkeys not getting a decent Christian burial. Can this
be right ?
FWIW,
Peter Meazey
-
Gjest
Re: Identity of Isabella (d. 1364), Mother of Margaret Danye
So the correction would be that Isabella Baggiley is not a Baggiley at all.
She is the same Isabella Molyneux, dau by her mother's second marriage, the
Baggiley marriage having no descendents.
So Isabella is the same person who has an IPM in 1364 and a daughter Margaret
(Danyers) Radcliffe-Savage-Leigh
Will
She is the same Isabella Molyneux, dau by her mother's second marriage, the
Baggiley marriage having no descendents.
So Isabella is the same person who has an IPM in 1364 and a daughter Margaret
(Danyers) Radcliffe-Savage-Leigh
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Ancestry of Thomas Hutton of Dry Drayton (d 1552)
In a message dated 5/26/06 3:06:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< gave the same to Thomas
Hutton, clerk, John Hutton, gentleman, and Richard Lucas, clerk, for
the use of the said Thomas and John Hutton and their heirs; John died 3
November last [1501]; Thomas Hutton the younger, aged seven and more,
is his son and heir.
Huntingdonshire: the manor of Little Paxton, >>
In a case like this where a Manor descends to a minor, would the mother's new
husband normally be considered the "guardian" and appointed explicitely ?
Could the guardian then decide to sell that manor and just hold the money in
trust for the minor ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< gave the same to Thomas
Hutton, clerk, John Hutton, gentleman, and Richard Lucas, clerk, for
the use of the said Thomas and John Hutton and their heirs; John died 3
November last [1501]; Thomas Hutton the younger, aged seven and more,
is his son and heir.
Huntingdonshire: the manor of Little Paxton, >>
In a case like this where a Manor descends to a minor, would the mother's new
husband normally be considered the "guardian" and appointed explicitely ?
Could the guardian then decide to sell that manor and just hold the money in
trust for the minor ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
<< King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
I don't show any descendents of this couple.
One daughter Aethelburh, Queen of /Northumbria/ married
Edwin, King of Deira 593-606, King of /Northumbria/ 616-633
but I don't show any children. If someone has children to them, I'd like to
know
A son of Aethelbert and Bertha
Eadbald, King of /Kent/ 616-640
married Emma, Princess of /Austrasia/
and had at least one child
Earconbert, King of /Kent/ 640-
but again I'm not showing any further descendents.
Will Johnson
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
<< King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
I don't show any descendents of this couple.
One daughter Aethelburh, Queen of /Northumbria/ married
Edwin, King of Deira 593-606, King of /Northumbria/ 616-633
but I don't show any children. If someone has children to them, I'd like to
know
A son of Aethelbert and Bertha
Eadbald, King of /Kent/ 616-640
married Emma, Princess of /Austrasia/
and had at least one child
Earconbert, King of /Kent/ 640-
but again I'm not showing any further descendents.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
<< King Canute ascended the English throne in 1016 and reigned for 19
years. Harthacanute, his son, died 1042. >>
I'm not sure that Canute has any descendents today
I'm showing three children for him, none of which had themselves any
grandchildren.
Gunhild who m Henry III, HR Emperor had a daughter Beatrice, Abbess of
Quedlimburg, but that's it.
If anyone has descendents from Canute I'd like to hear about them.
Thanks
Will Johnson
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
<< King Canute ascended the English throne in 1016 and reigned for 19
years. Harthacanute, his son, died 1042. >>
I'm not sure that Canute has any descendents today
I'm showing three children for him, none of which had themselves any
grandchildren.
Gunhild who m Henry III, HR Emperor had a daughter Beatrice, Abbess of
Quedlimburg, but that's it.
If anyone has descendents from Canute I'd like to hear about them.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/26/06 4:44:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:
<< That entry was roughly dated "1283-86?", but the record given in CP
concerning Margaret de Quincy, Countess of Derby (or Ferrers) states:
' She d. shortly before 12 Mar. 1280/1. ' [2]
Therefore, it appears that particular document should be dated
prior to the above date. >>
Perhaps. But now you have two sources which conflict, both are secondary in a
way. That way being how they arrived at their dates. How did CP arrive at
its date? How did Grant C. Simpson and James D. Galbraith arrive at their
date?
We can't know which one is right until we know that.
Will Johnson
writes:
<< That entry was roughly dated "1283-86?", but the record given in CP
concerning Margaret de Quincy, Countess of Derby (or Ferrers) states:
' She d. shortly before 12 Mar. 1280/1. ' [2]
Therefore, it appears that particular document should be dated
prior to the above date. >>
Perhaps. But now you have two sources which conflict, both are secondary in a
way. That way being how they arrived at their dates. How did CP arrive at
its date? How did Grant C. Simpson and James D. Galbraith arrive at their
date?
We can't know which one is right until we know that.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E
In a message dated 5/26/06 4:44:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:
<< [2] CP IV:198, cites " Fine Roll, 9 Edw. I, m. 16; Patent Roll,
m. 25." >>
Are these online?
I tried http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/patentrolls/
but it doesn't seem to cover Edward I
Thanks
Will Johnson
writes:
<< [2] CP IV:198, cites " Fine Roll, 9 Edw. I, m. 16; Patent Roll,
m. 25." >>
Are these online?
I tried http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/patentrolls/
but it doesn't seem to cover Edward I
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
CE Wood
Re: Alberto Azzo II
From Bill Marshall's site re Theobald III, Comte de Blois et Champagne
(http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I11236):
Marriage 1 Garsend Of Maine
* Married: Before 1049
* Note:
Sources for this Information:
date: divorced 1049 [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p11] first
marriage of Gersende [Ref: ES I.1 #31, ES II #46, ES III #692],
divorced: [Ref: ES I.1 #31] 1048 [Ref: ES II #46] 1049 [Ref: Moriarty
Plantagenet p11], names: [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p117]
CE Wood
"Ginny Wagner" wrote:
Good for you, Will. Here is a really botched translation:
"We can believe only our author has desired to say here,
first Berte, Duchess of Champagne, then Comtesse of the
Maine. See above, volume II, p 393. We prefer to suppose
that it will have had shown Gersende, daughter
d'Herbert-Eveille-Chien, count of the Maine, sister-in-law
of Berte by his marriage with Thibaud, count of Champagne,
then
repudiated by this lord, and remarried to Azzo, Marquis of
Ligurie. "
The question remains, where did Azzo die?
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com
-
Doug McDonald
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of
Northumbria in his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And
that, of course, leads to a vast multitude.
This is "for what it's worth" of course.
Doug McDonald
In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert.
I don't show any descendents of this couple.
Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of
Northumbria in his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And
that, of course, leads to a vast multitude.
This is "for what it's worth" of course.
Doug McDonald
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Dear Will,
To the best of my knowledge, none of Canute (II) King of
Denmark, England and I believe Norway for a time had four children;by Aelgifu
,Sweyn, King of Norway and Harold I " Harefoot", King of England by Emma of
Normandy Gunnild, 1st wife of Emperor Henry III and Canute III aka Hardecanute,
nominated to succeed his father in Denmark and Norway in 1035. He went to
Denmark to secure the crown and his brother Harold I serving as regent in England.
In 1036/37 Harold despite the wishes of his father approached the Saxon Witan
and had himself elected King of England. Hardicanute enraged set out with a
fleet from Denmark to displace his brother who died in 1040 before the army
reached England and the Witan nominated and elected Hardicanute as king.
Hardicanute taxed England heavily and died in 1042. apparently none of the three sons
of Canute had any issue and his sister Astrid, wife of Ulf Thorkilsson, son
of Thorkils Styrbjornson, a Swedish prince who was married to a daughter of
Canute II`s patralineal grandfather Harald Bluetooth had a son Sweyn who
eventually was recognized as Hardicanute`s successor in Denmark.
See William Seymour " Sovereign Legacy" ( Doubleday (1980) pp 32-33 and "
The Encyclopedia of World History (6th Edition by Peter N Stearns, General
Editor in succession to William L Langer (2001) Genealogical table on p 182.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
To the best of my knowledge, none of Canute (II) King of
Denmark, England and I believe Norway for a time had four children;by Aelgifu
,Sweyn, King of Norway and Harold I " Harefoot", King of England by Emma of
Normandy Gunnild, 1st wife of Emperor Henry III and Canute III aka Hardecanute,
nominated to succeed his father in Denmark and Norway in 1035. He went to
Denmark to secure the crown and his brother Harold I serving as regent in England.
In 1036/37 Harold despite the wishes of his father approached the Saxon Witan
and had himself elected King of England. Hardicanute enraged set out with a
fleet from Denmark to displace his brother who died in 1040 before the army
reached England and the Witan nominated and elected Hardicanute as king.
Hardicanute taxed England heavily and died in 1042. apparently none of the three sons
of Canute had any issue and his sister Astrid, wife of Ulf Thorkilsson, son
of Thorkils Styrbjornson, a Swedish prince who was married to a daughter of
Canute II`s patralineal grandfather Harald Bluetooth had a son Sweyn who
eventually was recognized as Hardicanute`s successor in Denmark.
See William Seymour " Sovereign Legacy" ( Doubleday (1980) pp 32-33 and "
The Encyclopedia of World History (6th Edition by Peter N Stearns, General
Editor in succession to William L Langer (2001) Genealogical table on p 182.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
In a message dated 5/26/06 3:06:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:
<< apparently none of the three sons
of Canute had any issue and his sister Astrid, wife of Ulf Thorkilsson, son
of Thorkils Styrbjornson, a Swedish prince who was married to a daughter of
Canute II`s patralineal grandfather Harald Bluetooth had a son Sweyn who
eventually was recognized as Hardicanute`s successor in Denmark. >>
Is this Sweyn identical to
Sweyn II, King of /Denmark/ 1047-
died Abt 1074
Thanks
Will Johnson
writes:
<< apparently none of the three sons
of Canute had any issue and his sister Astrid, wife of Ulf Thorkilsson, son
of Thorkils Styrbjornson, a Swedish prince who was married to a daughter of
Canute II`s patralineal grandfather Harald Bluetooth had a son Sweyn who
eventually was recognized as Hardicanute`s successor in Denmark. >>
Is this Sweyn identical to
Sweyn II, King of /Denmark/ 1047-
died Abt 1074
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Dear Will,
According to David Williamson`s Kings and Queens of Britain
Appendix B Table 2 The Kings of Kent
Earconbert, King of Kent ruled to 664 married Sexburga, daughter
of Anna, King of East Anglica and had Egbert I, King of Kent 664-673,
Hlothere, King of Kent 673-685, Earcongota and Eormengild who married King Wulfhere
of Mercia 657-675 (Table 8 Kings of Mercia gives them 3 children, Coenred ,
King of Mercia 704-709, Berhtwald and St Werburga , Abbess of Ely who d abt
700. Egbert I, King of Kent was father (table 2 again) of Eadric, King of Kent
685-686/7 and Wihtred, King of Kent 690-725 who married 1st Cynegyth, by whom
Ethelbert II, King of Kent 725-762. And Eadbert I, King of Kent jointly with
Ethelbert II 725- 748. Wihtred had apparently no children by 2nd wife
Ethelburga and a son Alric who ruled with his half-brothers by 3rd wife Werburga.
Williamson then conjectures that Ethelbert II was the father of Egbert II, King
of Kent abt 765-abt 780, Eadbert II Praen, King of Kent 796-798 and a daughter
married to Ealhmund of Wessex, Sub King of Kent in 784, parents of Egbert,
King of Wessex who shortly after his ascension in 802 also became King of Kent
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
According to David Williamson`s Kings and Queens of Britain
Appendix B Table 2 The Kings of Kent
Earconbert, King of Kent ruled to 664 married Sexburga, daughter
of Anna, King of East Anglica and had Egbert I, King of Kent 664-673,
Hlothere, King of Kent 673-685, Earcongota and Eormengild who married King Wulfhere
of Mercia 657-675 (Table 8 Kings of Mercia gives them 3 children, Coenred ,
King of Mercia 704-709, Berhtwald and St Werburga , Abbess of Ely who d abt
700. Egbert I, King of Kent was father (table 2 again) of Eadric, King of Kent
685-686/7 and Wihtred, King of Kent 690-725 who married 1st Cynegyth, by whom
Ethelbert II, King of Kent 725-762. And Eadbert I, King of Kent jointly with
Ethelbert II 725- 748. Wihtred had apparently no children by 2nd wife
Ethelburga and a son Alric who ruled with his half-brothers by 3rd wife Werburga.
Williamson then conjectures that Ethelbert II was the father of Egbert II, King
of Kent abt 765-abt 780, Eadbert II Praen, King of Kent 796-798 and a daughter
married to Ealhmund of Wessex, Sub King of Kent in 784, parents of Egbert,
King of Wessex who shortly after his ascension in 802 also became King of Kent
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Dear Will,
Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
Sweyn Ulfson.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
Sweyn Ulfson.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:
<< Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
Sweyn Ulfson. >>
That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
"Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patrynomic (is
that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.
Thanks
Will
writes:
<< Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
Sweyn Ulfson. >>
That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
"Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patrynomic (is
that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.
Thanks
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Dear Will,
Apparently so. Since his most direct claim to the Danish
throne lie through his mother Estrith / Astrid they referred to him as the son of
his danish mother rather than his swedish father Ulf. Sweyn II Estrithson was
the son of Estrith Sweynsdattar, daughter of Sweyn I Forkbeard Haraldson.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Apparently so. Since his most direct claim to the Danish
throne lie through his mother Estrith / Astrid they referred to him as the son of
his danish mother rather than his swedish father Ulf. Sweyn II Estrithson was
the son of Estrith Sweynsdattar, daughter of Sweyn I Forkbeard Haraldson.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
David Teague
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Could anyone give an outline of this lineage?
Thanks in advance,
David Teague
Thanks in advance,
David Teague
From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:53 -0500
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert.
I don't show any descendents of this couple.
Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of Northumbria in
his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And that, of course, leads to a vast
multitude.
This is "for what it's worth" of course.
Doug McDonald
-
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
| renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
|
| << King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
| daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
|
| I don't show any descendents of this couple.
| One daughter Aethelburh, Queen of /Northumbria/ married
| Edwin, King of Deira 593-606, King of /Northumbria/ 616-633
|
| but I don't show any children. If someone has children to them, I'd like to
| know
|
| A son of Aethelbert and Bertha
| Eadbald, King of /Kent/ 616-640
| married Emma, Princess of /Austrasia/
| and had at least one child
| Earconbert, King of /Kent/ 640-
|
| but again I'm not showing any further descendents.
|
| Will Johnson
Suggest checking http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Sax ... ogy/files/. These are primarily what I have been able to piece together. I try to change them if anything new is introduced, or comes to light. But, if no-one shares, nothing gets changed, unless I stumble on it. The group has been kind of quiet, lately; but maybe something will come from this discussion. Personally, I've had other life-issues this past fortnight, and haven't had time to check through all of the posts on this thread.
Any suggestions, changes or updates to the charts are welcome. That's why I drew and posted them.
Ford
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
| renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
|
| << King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
| daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
|
| I don't show any descendents of this couple.
| One daughter Aethelburh, Queen of /Northumbria/ married
| Edwin, King of Deira 593-606, King of /Northumbria/ 616-633
|
| but I don't show any children. If someone has children to them, I'd like to
| know
|
| A son of Aethelbert and Bertha
| Eadbald, King of /Kent/ 616-640
| married Emma, Princess of /Austrasia/
| and had at least one child
| Earconbert, King of /Kent/ 640-
|
| but again I'm not showing any further descendents.
|
| Will Johnson
Suggest checking http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Sax ... ogy/files/. These are primarily what I have been able to piece together. I try to change them if anything new is introduced, or comes to light. But, if no-one shares, nothing gets changed, unless I stumble on it. The group has been kind of quiet, lately; but maybe something will come from this discussion. Personally, I've had other life-issues this past fortnight, and haven't had time to check through all of the posts on this thread.
Any suggestions, changes or updates to the charts are welcome. That's why I drew and posted them.
Ford
-
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
| writes:
|
| << Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
| Sweyn Ulfson. >>
|
| That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
| "Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
| could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patronymic (is
| that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.
|
| Thanks
| Will
I think that _THIS_ would be called a 'matronymic'.
Ford
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
| writes:
|
| << Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same as
| Sweyn Ulfson. >>
|
| That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
| "Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That they
| could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the patronymic (is
| that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.
|
| Thanks
| Will
I think that _THIS_ would be called a 'matronymic'.
Ford
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
We did have Henry FitzEmpress as well.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Dear Will,
Apparently so. Since his most direct claim to the Danish
throne lie through his mother Estrith / Astrid they referred to him as the
son of
his danish mother rather than his swedish father Ulf. Sweyn II Estrithson
was
the son of Estrith Sweynsdattar, daughter of Sweyn I Forkbeard Haraldson.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA
-
David Teague
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
A matronymic, eh? Rather like the surname Dyson (which apparently derives
from one Dionysia of Linthwaite in Yorkshire, who fl. c. 1300-20).
David Teague
from one Dionysia of Linthwaite in Yorkshire, who fl. c. 1300-20).
David Teague
From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 03:26:46 -0300
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| In a message dated 5/26/06 4:26:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Jwc1870@aol.com
| writes:
|
| << Yes , Sweyn II Estrithson, King of Denmark in the same
as
| Sweyn Ulfson.
|
| That's odd. I had had him in my database with a father, hopefully called
| "Estrith" not it turns out that was his mother. Was that common? That
they
| could be known as the "son" of either parent? I just assumed the
patronymic (is
| that what it's called?) was always in reference to the father.
|
| Thanks
| Will
I think that _THIS_ would be called a 'matronymic'.
Ford
-
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Teague" <davteague@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| Could anyone give an outline of this lineage?
|
| Thanks in advance,
|
| David Teague
|
|
| >From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
| >To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
| >Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| >Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:53 -0500
| >
| >WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
| >>In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
| >>renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
| >>
| >><< King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
| >>daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
| >>
| >>I don't show any descendents of this couple.
| >
| >
| >Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of Northumbria in
| >his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And that, of course, leads to a vast
| >multitude.
| >
| >This is "for what it's worth" of course.
| >
| >Doug McDonald
| >
Ecgfrith Ailguin, K. Northumbria 670-685, m. 2ndly, Eormenburga, dt. of Eormenread, K. Kent. They had, (THIN LINE)
Eadwulf I, K. Northumbria 704-705, father of
Earnwine, father of
Eanwulf, father of
Eardwulf I, K. Northumbria 796-806, & 808, father of
Eanread, K. Northumbria 808-840, father of
Æðelread II, K. Northumbria 840-848, father of
Ecgbeorht II, K. Northumbria 876-878/888, father of
Eadwulf II, K. Northumbria 878/888-912/913, father of
Ealdread, Ealdorman of Northumbria, fl. 923-927, father of
Oswulf I, Ealdorman of Northumbria 947-954, father of
Waltheof I, Ealdorman of Northumbria ca. 954-969
The latter generations are from Searle, ASBKN. For the continuity see my article in _Foundations_, mentioned in an earlier post.
Respectfully,
Ford
From: "David Teague" <davteague@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| Could anyone give an outline of this lineage?
|
| Thanks in advance,
|
| David Teague
|
|
| >From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
| >To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
| >Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| >Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:53 -0500
| >
| >WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
| >>In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
| >>renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
| >>
| >><< King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
| >>daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert. >>
| >>
| >>I don't show any descendents of this couple.
| >
| >
| >Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of Northumbria in
| >his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And that, of course, leads to a vast
| >multitude.
| >
| >This is "for what it's worth" of course.
| >
| >Doug McDonald
| >
Ecgfrith Ailguin, K. Northumbria 670-685, m. 2ndly, Eormenburga, dt. of Eormenread, K. Kent. They had, (THIN LINE)
Eadwulf I, K. Northumbria 704-705, father of
Earnwine, father of
Eanwulf, father of
Eardwulf I, K. Northumbria 796-806, & 808, father of
Eanread, K. Northumbria 808-840, father of
Æðelread II, K. Northumbria 840-848, father of
Ecgbeorht II, K. Northumbria 876-878/888, father of
Eadwulf II, K. Northumbria 878/888-912/913, father of
Ealdread, Ealdorman of Northumbria, fl. 923-927, father of
Oswulf I, Ealdorman of Northumbria 947-954, father of
Waltheof I, Ealdorman of Northumbria ca. 954-969
The latter generations are from Searle, ASBKN. For the continuity see my article in _Foundations_, mentioned in an earlier post.
Respectfully,
Ford
-
Gjest
Re: William FitzWilliam of Milton d 8 Sep 1534
Ooooo I got a hit.
There was a Richard Ogle who married Mary FitzWilliam and they had a son
Richard Ogle as well. So this Richard might refer to either of those two, but
apparently this means Mary FitzWilliam is likely to be William's sister.
And this one is a bit long but William FitzWilliam had a daughter Anne who
married Anthony Cooke. Anthony Cooke had a sister Catherine who married Richard
Ogle.
Is Richard Ogle the son of Richard and Mary the same Richard who married
Catherine Cooke?
Or was it the father who became a widower and then married her?
I also have a Richard Ogle who married Beatrice Cooke
And a Beatrice Cooke that married Nicholas Rawson
Confusing!
There was a Richard Ogle who married Mary FitzWilliam and they had a son
Richard Ogle as well. So this Richard might refer to either of those two, but
apparently this means Mary FitzWilliam is likely to be William's sister.
And this one is a bit long but William FitzWilliam had a daughter Anne who
married Anthony Cooke. Anthony Cooke had a sister Catherine who married Richard
Ogle.
Is Richard Ogle the son of Richard and Mary the same Richard who married
Catherine Cooke?
Or was it the father who became a widower and then married her?
I also have a Richard Ogle who married Beatrice Cooke
And a Beatrice Cooke that married Nicholas Rawson
Confusing!
-
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Teague" <davteague@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| A matronymic, eh? Rather like the surname Dyson (which apparently derives
| from one Dionysia of Linthwaite in Yorkshire, who fl. c. 1300-20).
|
| David Teague
Yes, rather!
Ford
From: "David Teague" <davteague@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| A matronymic, eh? Rather like the surname Dyson (which apparently derives
| from one Dionysia of Linthwaite in Yorkshire, who fl. c. 1300-20).
|
| David Teague
Yes, rather!
Ford
-
David Teague
Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Ford,
Thank you very much.
David Teague
Thank you very much.
David Teague
From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 03:49:51 -0300
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Teague" <davteague@hotmail.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| Could anyone give an outline of this lineage?
|
| Thanks in advance,
|
| David Teague
|
|
| >From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu
| >To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
| >Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
| >Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:53:53 -0500
|
| >WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
| >>In a message dated 5/26/06 1:51:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
| >>renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
|
| >><< King Aethelbert of Kent married a Christian princess, Bertha, the
| >>daughter of the Frankish king, Charibert.
|
| >>I don't show any descendents of this couple.
|
|
| >Stanford Mommaerts-Browne shows a descent to Waltheorf of Northumbria in
| >his DFA charts. with not "thin lines". And that, of course, leads to a
vast
| >multitude.
|
| >This is "for what it's worth" of course.
|
| >Doug McDonald
|
Ecgfrith Ailguin, K. Northumbria 670-685, m. 2ndly, Eormenburga, dt. of
Eormenread, K. Kent. They had, (THIN LINE)
Eadwulf I, K. Northumbria 704-705, father of
Earnwine, father of
Eanwulf, father of
Eardwulf I, K. Northumbria 796-806, & 808, father of
Eanread, K. Northumbria 808-840, father of
Æðelread II, K. Northumbria 840-848, father of
Ecgbeorht II, K. Northumbria 876-878/888, father of
Eadwulf II, K. Northumbria 878/888-912/913, father of
Ealdread, Ealdorman of Northumbria, fl. 923-927, father of
Oswulf I, Ealdorman of Northumbria 947-954, father of
Waltheof I, Ealdorman of Northumbria ca. 954-969
The latter generations are from Searle, ASBKN. For the continuity see my
article in _Foundations_, mentioned in an earlier post.
Respectfully,
Ford
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: William FitzWilliam of Milton d 8 Sep 1534
In message of 27 May, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
The Lincolshire pedigrees, pub Harleian Soc in 1903, Vol II, p. 730
show a Beatrix, dau of John Cooke of Gidea Hall, Essex who was an
executrix in 1556 and who married Richard Ogle of Pinchbeck, who d. 25
Nov 1555 and was son of Richard Ogle and Mary FitzWilliam.
See above.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Ooooo I got a hit.
There was a Richard Ogle who married Mary FitzWilliam and they had a
son Richard Ogle as well. So this Richard might refer to either of
those two, but apparently this means Mary FitzWilliam is likely to
be William's sister.
And this one is a bit long but William FitzWilliam had a daughter
Anne who married Anthony Cooke. Anthony Cooke had a sister
Catherine who married Richard Ogle.
The Lincolshire pedigrees, pub Harleian Soc in 1903, Vol II, p. 730
show a Beatrix, dau of John Cooke of Gidea Hall, Essex who was an
executrix in 1556 and who married Richard Ogle of Pinchbeck, who d. 25
Nov 1555 and was son of Richard Ogle and Mary FitzWilliam.
Is Richard Ogle the son of Richard and Mary the same Richard who
married Catherine Cooke? Or was it the father who became a widower
and then married her?
I also have a Richard Ogle who married Beatrice Cooke
See above.
And a Beatrice Cooke that married Nicholas Rawson
Confusing!
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org