Blount-Ayala

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 19 mai 2006 14:10:16

Leslie's article on his only royal line is avail. here:
http://www.fasg.org/Levis.pdf


lmahler@att.net wrote:
I do have a gentry line in Sweden, which is supposed to have
a distant royal descent (if Elgenstierna's book is correct).
But having only one descent from Edward III is fine.
(1/4 of my ancestry is southeast Asian).

Leslie

John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 19 mai 2006 14:18:17

Gervase Holles, _Memorials of the Holles family, 1493-1656_ (Camden 3rd
series, vol. 55 [1937]) has a little further proof for this line, as
Gervase Holles--himself a Clifford-Clifton descendant--mentions that he
is aware of the existence (ca. 1625 or '30) of a distant Clifford
cousin, a certain Melford, tanner, of Arnold, Notts.

Chris Dickinson

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 19 mai 2006 14:26:46

Will wrote:

<snip>
In Yorkshire, for example, in my one-name study, I've found several
instances where husbands married and settled in the wife's parish before
either going back to his own parish, or to quite another parish.


Yes, that happened quite a lot.

There are a whole range of possible explanations, from the 'data blip'
variety through 'comfort zone' and 'job skills' to 'inheritance' (my
categories!).

Data Blip

Property inheritance and tenancy was more strongly determined by manorial
boundary that by parish boundary. A manor might extend into two or more
parishes, so the apparent move from one parish to another might be no move
at all.

Yorkshire rural areas were pretty similar to the ones that I'm familiar with
in Cumberland. Very large rural parishes contained chapelries that might not
be geographically united with the mother parish. Quite often the parish
given in records is the mother parish not the chapel-of-ease parish where
the person was actually living.

Small extraparochials that sit at the cusps of other parishes can cause
families to seem to be everywhere or nowhere!

Comfort zone

The wife would often return home for the birth of the first child, or for
others if there were difficulties. So the baptism parish isn't the normal
residence parish.

There has always been a lot of sentimental going back to the home parish for
church events - baptism, marriage and burial.

Maybe wives enjoy living with their mothers-in-law even less than husbands
do!

Job skills

Certain high value skills had few opportunities. So younger sons of millers
and blacksmiths move long distances to get a mill or a forge.

Certain other skills made settlement elsewhere more likely (eg drovers).

Certain other skills (e.g. mariners) meant that the husband wasn't at home
much, so the wife might prefer to live with family.

Inheritance

In rural communities like Yorkshire, the failure to own a customary tenancy
(i.e. be a yeoman) meant that you were excluded from power-sharing or
legal benefits in the manor. For that reason, sons often had a divided
inheritance - with one farming and the other, say, shoe-making, but both
with manorial rights. The husbands of daughters might expect a similar
windfall if they could show they had the skills needed on the farm.

Upper-range yeoman families tended to accumulate properties in more than one
parish. Younger sons might well take over a lesser property in another
parish, or have another tenement bought for them in the same area.


Example

All that said, I was surprised recently to realise that Faith, the daughter
of my ancestor Daniel Dickinson, who married on 6 August 1694, didn't move
away from the family home until January 1697 - despite her husband settling
his property in Whitehaven (eight miles and a few parishes away) on her. Her
eldest daughter was born in that period.

I can think of lots of reasons why that may have happened. One of which may
be that her husband was a mariner (John Hamilton, then sailing on the
'Maryland Merchant', but later Master of the 'Union' sailing to Virginia and
Dublin).


Chris

Gjest

Re: OT Sir Anthony Wagner

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 16:19:02

Sir Anthony was certainly not blind during his service as Garter. I well
remember accompanying him in procession into Inner Temple Hall, when he showed the
keenest interest in the blazonry displayed in the lobby. He bowed to a "field
or" to his left, murmuring ' I never knew that the heir of Charlemagne was a
bencher here', and only smelt a rat when three more fields or followed in
quick succession - the Inner Temple commited the solecism of painting gold the
shields of benchers who were not armigerous.
I rebut the monstrous slur that he was a charlatan: in fact, when he was
still a young pursuivant, on being urged by Sir Michael Sadler to verify his claim
to be descended from the famous 16th century Sir Ralph, he rebutted the claim
with magisterial authority. Sir Michael's family (quorum parvissima pars ego)
has never dared assert it since.
MM

Gjest

Re: Marriage of Sir Simon Leek and Margaret de Vaux

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 16:20:02

Doesn't Roskell give some additional dates for the Leeks? I don't have the
information on hand, but I'll check when I get home tonight and post what I
find.

Jeff

Quoting "" <mjcar@btinternet.com>:

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/12/06 8:51:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jeffery@iquest.net writes:

Payling notes that Margaret Vaux brought the following properties to
Sir
Simon Leek (d. ca. 1382): "Cotham and lands over the Lincs. border at
Westborough, Dry Doddington, Stubton,

Do any of these give any indication of dates for these people?
The only thing firm I see right now is John Vaux died in 1349

We also know that they were married before June 1351, when they
received a papal dispensation to validate their marriage despite being
within the prohibited degress, and the legitimacy of their offspring
being thereby confirmed.

MA-R


James Dempster

Re: OT Sir Anthony Wagner

Legg inn av James Dempster » 19 mai 2006 18:38:04

On Fri, 19 May 2006 14:04:47 +0000 (UTC), Millerfairfield@aol.com
wrote:

Sir Anthony was certainly not blind during his service as Garter.

When I met Sir Anthony in 1988 he was either blind or functionally so.
Of course by this time he had retired as Garter.

James
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Gjest

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 19:14:02

Except very early on, the FitzAlan name was not used as a surname until
recently (18c?); but then used retrospectively by genealogists, although some
refuse to use this convention. (tons more on this subject can be found in the
archives)

The title Earl of Arundel is a strange title in that it goes with the
Arundel estate (castle) rather than as an hereditary title, although in practise
for the most part this amounts to the same thing. The title is now held by the
Howards, Dukes of Norfolk

Adrian

:
Charani wrote:
Could someone tell me when and where the connection is between the
ARUNDELLs of Cornwall and the ARUNDELLs of Sussex, please?


MA-R replied


They are two separate families. In fact, the 'Arundels' of Sussex
properly bore the surname FitzAlan, and 'Arundel" in their case was a
peerage title (Earl of Arundel), although they sometimes used this in
lieu of their surname (eg Archbishop Arundel)

MA-R

Renia

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Renia » 19 mai 2006 19:15:27

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/19/06 8:51:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

n fact, the 'Arundels' of Sussex
properly bore the surname FitzAlan,

It would be interesting to see if A2A or Procat bears out that they used the
surname FitzAlan during the later medieval period.
Will


Procat implies they used FitzAlan temp Hen VI:

C 139/8/91 More informationArundel, Beatrice [of Portugal], Countess
of, wife of Thomas [Fitzalan], late Earl of. Assignment of dower:
Surrey, Sussex 2 Hen VI

C 139/16/25 More informationNorfolk, Elizabeth [Fitzalan], who was the
wife of Thomas [Mowbray], Duke of, and daughter of Richard [Fitzalan],
Earl of Arundel: Cambs, Oxon, Wilts, Glos, Calais, Beds, Bucks, Salop,
Essex, Kent, Heref, Northants, Derb, Yorks, Warw, Leics, Surrey, Sussex,
Lincs 3 Hen VI

C 139/25/40 More informationArundel, Thomas [Fitzalan], late Earl of:
Sussex 4 Hen VI

C 139/71/37 More informationArundel, John [Fitzalan], Earl of: Hunts,
Cambs, Salop, Wilts, Glos, Som, Dors, Norf, Sussex, Kent, London, Heref
and the marches of Wales 13 Hen VI

C 139/76/35 More informationBergavenny, Joan [Fitzalan], who was the
wife of William de Beauchamp, kt, Lord, one of the sisters and heiresses
of the late Thomas [Fitzalan], Earl of Arundel: Heref and the marches of
Wales, Salop and the marches of Wales, Kent, Bucks, Lincs, Notts, Glos
and the marches of Wales, Oxon, Staffs, Worcs, London, Surrey, Warw,
Norf, Suff, Herts, Essex 14 Hen VI

C 139/79/60 More informationArundel, Maud [Lovell], who was the wife of
the late [John Fitzalan] Earl of. Assignment of dower: Salop and the
marches of Wales 15 Hen VI

C 139/81/39 More informationArundel, Maud, late Countess of, wife of
the late John, Earl of Arundel: Wilts, Salop and the marches of Wales,
Sussex, Som, Devon 15 Hen VI

C 139/88/50 More informationArundel, Humfrey [Fitzalan], son and heir
of John, late Earl of, and Maud his wife, daughter of Elizabeth, wife of
Robert Lovell: Glos, Heref and the marches of Wales, Kent, London,
Essex, Dors, Norf, Suff, Wilts, Sussex 16 Hen VI

C 139/89/68 More informationOrmond, Amice [Stafford], wife of James
[Butler alias Ormond], Earl of, and sister and heiress of the late
[Humphrey Fitzalan], Earl of Arundel. Proof of age: Dors 16 Hen VI

C 139/98/27 More informationArundel, John [Fitzalan], Earl of: Salop
and the marches of Wales 18 Hen VI

Gjest

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 19:24:02

In a message dated 5/19/06 9:43:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

<< Except very early on, the FitzAlan name was not used as a surname until
recently (18c?); but then used retrospectively by genealogists, although
some
refuse to use this convention. (tons more on this subject can be found in
the
archives) >>

As to whether FitzAlan was a surname I present this from the archives.
Will Johnson


Subj: Re: The maternity of Joan (Beaufort) Stradling: The evidence (?) of
anagrams
Date: 9/13/05 3:53:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

<snip>
Speaking of the surname employed by the Fitz Alan family, Nicolas, the well
known antiquarian, states: "This family presents a singular instance of
adopting the name of their title as the surname of the family, for after the
marriage of John Fitz-Alan, Lord of Clun, with Isabel, the sister and co-heir of Hugh
D'Albini, Earl of Arundel, all the descendants called themslves Arundel
instead of Fitz-Alan" [Reference: Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 105].

My findings agree with Mr. Nicolas as to the name change from Fitz Alan to
Arundel. Available records indicate that the name change was gradual at first,
but complete about 1313.

Gjest

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 19:27:02

In a message dated 5/19/06 8:51:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

<< Mary Arundell, dau of Sir John Arundell of Lanherne, Cornwall married
Henry FitzAlan, earl of Arundel on the 19th Dec 1545. Ref Complete
Peerage (CP) Vol XII/1, pp. 519-20. >>

Since she was the widow of Robert Radcliffe, the 1st Earl of Sussex and 10th
Lord FitzWalter (d abt 23 Nov 1542) should she be address as the Countess of
Sussex or something of that sort?
Will

Gjest

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 19:29:02

In a message dated 5/19/06 8:51:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< n fact, the 'Arundels' of Sussex
properly bore the surname FitzAlan, >>

It would be interesting to see if A2A or Procat bears out that they used the
surname FitzAlan during the later medieval period.
Will

Gjest

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 19:49:00

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/19/06 11:21:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

Procat implies they used FitzAlan temp Hen VI:

C 139/8/91 More information Arundel, Beatrice [of Portugal], Countess
of, wife of Thomas [Fitzalan], late Earl of. Assignment of dower:
Surrey, Sussex 2 Hen VI

I would suggest Renia, that these [Fitzalan]'s are interpolations by a later
editor, thus the use of brackets to set them off to indicate that they are not
in the underlying originals.

That seems to be the case. Here, however, is a contemporary reference
to the surname Fitzalan being used at a similar time:

Will of Maud Fitzalan or Countess of Arundell of Abbotisbury, Dorset,
proved 25 October 1436 (PCC) Register: Luffenam.

MA-R

Renia

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Renia » 19 mai 2006 19:49:03

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/19/06 11:21:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

Procat implies they used FitzAlan temp Hen VI:

C 139/8/91 More informationArundel, Beatrice [of Portugal], Countess
of, wife of Thomas [Fitzalan], late Earl of. Assignment of dower:
Surrey, Sussex 2 Hen VI

I would suggest Renia, that these [Fitzalan]'s are interpolations by a later
editor, thus the use of brackets to set them off to indicate that they are not
in the underlying originals.

That's why I used the word "implies".

The documents, to which thee refer, are the originals, by the way, not
edited versions in secondary sources, so they wouldn't have an "editor".

Gjest

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 20:30:03

In a message dated 5/19/06 11:21:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< Procat implies they used FitzAlan temp Hen VI:

C 139/8/91 More informationArundel, Beatrice [of Portugal], Countess
of, wife of Thomas [Fitzalan], late Earl of. Assignment of dower:
Surrey, Sussex 2 Hen VI >>

I would suggest Renia, that these [Fitzalan]'s are interpolations by a later
editor, thus the use of brackets to set them off to indicate that they are not
in the underlying originals.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 20:55:04

In a message dated 5/19/06 11:51:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< That's why I used the word "implies".

The documents, to which thee refer, are the originals, by the way, not
edited versions in secondary sources, so they wouldn't have an "editor". >>

You are correct they refer to originals.
You are incorrect that they do not have an "editor", they do have an editor.
The editor is that person who extracted these tiny snippets for display.
The snippets are not the complete items, they are "headlines" to advertise
what the items contain.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Brian Timms' Site (Rolls of Arms)

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 21:06:23

I have managed to get to the arms section of Brian's site using the link in
Chris Phillip's site I have downloaded those files I did not already have, so
I too have all the arms. Its such a pity Brian is closing this site, he has
done a wonderful job.

Adrian


Doug Thompson wrote:

I just looked at Brian's excellent site (http://www.briantimms.com/) and
noticed Brian was about to close it down. I'm sure many other readers of
this newsgroup also look at the site.

Brian suggests you copy anything you want before it goes at the end of May!

I've copied all of it.

Renia replied

How did you manage that? I can't navigate it. Comes up as file:///e etc

Gjest

Re: Thomas Williamson, Bnt in 1642

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 22:04:02

I think that yesterday I may have goofed in stating that Thomas Williamson
survived until at least 1689.

OneWorldTree, not a good source, but mentions that Thomas had a son also
Thomas and also a baronet and it was *he* who I am seeing in the later records
(only stated as Thomas Williamson bnt, not 2nd).

At any rate, OneWorldTree states that the elder Thomas Williamson, bart
married Jane Hussey of Honington, dau of Edward Hussey bart of Honington and his
wife Elizabeth Anton

It then goes on to state that Elizabeth Anton is the dau of George Anton and
his wife Jane Tailor. Then I get confusion.

However I have located a source which does give good reference to the idea,
at least, that the wife of Edward Hussey was heir to "her uncle Thomas Tailor"
who was seized of Doddington at the time of his death in 1653.

Now I'm wondering if, using the fact that he held Doddington, it would be
possible to give Thomas Tailor some parents ?

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 19 mai 2006 22:48:03

Will is correct. The references to the surname, Fitz Alan, after
1312-3 in the National Archives catalogue are all interpolations, as
indicated by the fact that the surname is set in brackets.

DR

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
< In a message dated 5/19/06 11:21:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
< renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
<
< << Procat implies they used FitzAlan temp Hen VI:
<
< C 139/8/91 More informationArundel, Beatrice [of Portugal],
Countess
< of, wife of Thomas [Fitzalan], late Earl of. Assignment of dower:
< Surrey, Sussex 2 Hen VI >>
<
< I would suggest Renia, that these [Fitzalan]'s are interpolations by
a later
< editor, thus the use of brackets to set them off to indicate that
they are not
< in the underlying originals.
<
< Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 19 mai 2006 22:52:29

Dear Michael ~

I'm sure if you check the original will, you will find that Maud,
Countess of Arundel, either employed no surname at all, or else used
Arundel not Fitz Alan. The surname Fitz Alan had not been used for
over a hundred years when Countess Maud died.

DR


mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
< WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
<
< > In a message dated 5/19/06 11:21:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
< > renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
< >
< > << Procat implies they used FitzAlan temp Hen VI:
< >
< > C 139/8/91 More information Arundel, Beatrice [of Portugal],
Countess
< > of, wife of Thomas [Fitzalan], late Earl of. Assignment of dower:
< > Surrey, Sussex 2 Hen VI >>
< >
< > I would suggest Renia, that these [Fitzalan]'s are interpolations
by a later
< > editor, thus the use of brackets to set them off to indicate that
they are not
< > in the underlying originals.
<
< That seems to be the case. Here, however, is a contemporary
reference
< to the surname Fitzalan being used at a similar time:
<
< Will of Maud Fitzalan or Countess of Arundell of Abbotisbury, Dorset,
< proved 25 October 1436 (PCC) Register: Luffenam.
<
< MA-R

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 19 mai 2006 23:37:20

In message of 19 May, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/19/06 8:51:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@powys.org
wrote:

Mary Arundell, dau of Sir John Arundell of Lanherne, Cornwall
married Henry FitzAlan, earl of Arundel on the 19th Dec 1545. Ref
Complete Peerage (CP) Vol XII/1, pp. 519-20.

Since she was the widow of Robert Radcliffe, the 1st Earl of Sussex and 10th
Lord FitzWalter (d abt 23 Nov 1542) should she be address as the Countess of
Sussex or something of that sort?

I reckon it was up to her. So have a look at the records to see if
there is anything she signed.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Genealogics: Thomas Berkeley of Wymondham d 1488

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 23:41:02

Will thank you for your excellent post. As a follow-up I would like to add
that here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 5&tree=LEO

Leo has this Elizabeth Berkeley, dau of Thomas and wife to Sir William Hussey
as you know.

Leo has that she died bef 21 Dec 1504 however the source you already cited,
towit, the History of Doddington etc, says that her will is dated 6 Aug 1503
and proved 6 Dec 1504 "she desired to be buried in the Monastery of Sempringham
under her husband's tomb".

Will

Gjest

Re: Genealogics: Thomas Berkeley of Wymondham d 1488

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 23:47:02

Also Will please note that in her will she leaves bequests to her son "Sir
John Hussey, Knt"... "to her son Robert... to her daughters Lady Gray and Lady
Willoughby... to her brother and sister Marmion, and her brother and sister
Gayton.... and whereas my son William Huse hath aforetime sold to me for 400
marks the ward and marriage of George Huse, son and heir apparent to him and Anne
his wife, daughter and heir to Sir John Silvain, Knt, I will that this
wardship and marriage be sold for the payment of mine and my husband's debts...."

This source continues by saying that "her brother Sir Maurice Berkeley,
Knt... was [one of] her executors"

Will

Gjest

Re: King's Sergeant, circa 1445

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 mai 2006 00:12:02

Subj: Re: King's Sergeant, circa 1445
Date: 5/15/06 3:51:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: mllt1@le.ac.uk (Matt Tompkins)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

<snipped>
However I notice that the preceding entry in HoP 1439-1509, relating to John
Cheyne of Eastchurch (MP for Kent in 1449), says that he was a King's
Sergeant-at-Arms by April 1445



Is this the same John Cheyne (Cheney) who tudorplace.com.ar shows as being
son to William Cheney and Eleanor Salerne, and wife to Eleanor Shottesbroke, AND
father of John 1st Baron Cheney of Shurland ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Renia

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Renia » 20 mai 2006 01:16:25

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/19/06 11:51:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

That's why I used the word "implies".

The documents, to which thee refer, are the originals, by the way, not
edited versions in secondary sources, so they wouldn't have an "editor".

You are correct they refer to originals.
You are incorrect that they do not have an "editor", they do have an editor.
The editor is that person who extracted these tiny snippets for display.
The snippets are not the complete items, they are "headlines" to advertise
what the items contain.

Would that editor necessarily know the family was sometimes known as
"FitzAlan"? Or would the editor have found that information within the
original document they were summarising. Only way to find out, is to
look at the original document.

Renia

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Renia » 20 mai 2006 01:55:24

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/19/06 5:21:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

Would that editor necessarily know the family was sometimes known as
"FitzAlan"? Or would the editor have found that information within the
original document they were summarising. Only way to find out, is to
look at the original document.

These editors are fairly up on their who-was-who, so I'd say any of them who
didn't know this, shouldn't have been hired for the task in the first place.

The fact that *all* the references you posted have "FitzAlan" in brackets
would be a big red flag to me, reviewing them, that none of them actually say
FitzAlan.

I do agree with you. Just debating.

Gjest

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 mai 2006 02:49:02

In a message dated 5/19/06 5:21:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< Would that editor necessarily know the family was sometimes known as
"FitzAlan"? Or would the editor have found that information within the
original document they were summarising. Only way to find out, is to
look at the original document. >>

These editors are fairly up on their who-was-who, so I'd say any of them who
didn't know this, shouldn't have been hired for the task in the first place.

The fact that *all* the references you posted have "FitzAlan" in brackets
would be a big red flag to me, reviewing them, that none of them actually say
FitzAlan.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: The quarterings of "Nele" Hussey wife of Richard Disney

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 mai 2006 03:52:01

The history of the Manor of Doddington that I've been quoting from, claims to
be at a loss to account for the quarterings taken by Nele. He says a scroll
describes her as Nele Hussey, dau of Sir William Hussey and "over her head is
a shield of her Arms, or rather her father's, with those of Lovell"

The quarterings, as stated in this source go like this [as he states]: "1
Hussey, 2 Plumpton, 3 Nessfield, 4 Hussey, 5 Say, 6 'Arg, a Chevron between 3
Garbs.' [no specification of family name given]"

Can anyone today identify how Nele Hussey could claim Plumpton and Say ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 mai 2006 04:44:02

In the old DNB entry for "Villiers, Edward" it remarks that
Mary [Beaumont], the Countess of Buckingham died 19 Apr 1632 and buried aged
63 in St Edmund's Chapel, Westminster Abbey

Here we have an opposite problem to the last one I posed.
1) d aged 63
2) dau of Anthony Beaumont of Glenfield
3) son of Mary Basset who d 6 Jul 1539
4) dau of William Basset of Fledburgh who d "bef 1442" as Leo has it.

4 implies that Mary Basset was born by 1442.
Yet 1 implies her granddaughter was born 1568/9

That isn't possible in my opinion.

Either we have two Mary Basset's, one the dau of William d bef 1442 and one
much younger, or the wife of William Beaumont of Cole-Orton was not named Mary
Basset

Will Johnson

John Higgins

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av John Higgins » 20 mai 2006 07:20:02

If this is based on what's in Genealogics, it's almost certainly another
Paget error. Mary Basset the mother of Anthony Beaumont of Glenfield is
more likely the daughter of William Basset of Blore [not Fledburgh} (d. 1497
or 1498) and Joan Byron, not William Basset of Fledburgh (d. before 1442)
and Catherine Stanhope, as Paget has it.

Moral: Don't trust Paget without first checking other sources....


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:41 PM
Subject: re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Basset
(Fledburgh)


In the old DNB entry for "Villiers, Edward" it remarks that
Mary [Beaumont], the Countess of Buckingham died 19 Apr 1632 and buried
aged
63 in St Edmund's Chapel, Westminster Abbey

Here we have an opposite problem to the last one I posed.
1) d aged 63
2) dau of Anthony Beaumont of Glenfield
3) son of Mary Basset who d 6 Jul 1539
4) dau of William Basset of Fledburgh who d "bef 1442" as Leo has it.

4 implies that Mary Basset was born by 1442.
Yet 1 implies her granddaughter was born 1568/9

That isn't possible in my opinion.

Either we have two Mary Basset's, one the dau of William d bef 1442 and
one
much younger, or the wife of William Beaumont of Cole-Orton was not named
Mary
Basset

Will Johnson


Louise Staley

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 20 mai 2006 09:51:02

John Higgins wrote:
If this is based on what's in Genealogics, it's almost certainly another
Paget error. Mary Basset the mother of Anthony Beaumont of Glenfield is
more likely the daughter of William Basset of Blore [not Fledburgh} (d. 1497
or 1498) and Joan Byron, not William Basset of Fledburgh (d. before 1442)
and Catherine Stanhope, as Paget has it.

I am very interested in this idea that Mary Basset is actually from the
Blore Bassets rather than the Fledburgh ones and was the daughter of
William of Blore. Could you provide a source for this statement?

Interestingly "The Beaumonts in History" p125 says she was the daughter
of Sir Thomas Basset of Blore and cites Farnham, Leic. Pedigrees for
this gem. While Beaumont is a very variable source, and has completely
confused the Devon and Cornish Beaumonts, it is much better on the
Leicestershire ones. Having not seen Farnham I don't know if this is an
accurate representation of what he says.

Moral: Don't trust Paget without first checking other sources....

Will Johnson wrote:

In the old DNB entry for "Villiers, Edward" it remarks that
Mary [Beaumont], the Countess of Buckingham died 19 Apr 1632 and buried
aged 63 in St Edmund's Chapel, Westminster Abbey

The Beaumont book cites her MI which says she was 62 years, 11 months
and 19 days old at death, so born 30 April 1569

Here we have an opposite problem to the last one I posed.
1) d aged 63
2) dau of Anthony Beaumont of Glenfield
3) son of Mary Basset who d 6 Jul 1539
4) dau of William Basset of Fledburgh who d "bef 1442" as Leo has it.

4 implies that Mary Basset was born by 1442.
Yet 1 implies her granddaughter was born 1568/9

That isn't possible in my opinion.

Either we have two Mary Basset's, one the dau of William d bef 1442
and one much younger, or the wife of William Beaumont of Cole-Orton
was not named Mary Basset

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 20 mai 2006 15:49:30

Dear Renia ~

Sometime ago, I contacted the Public Record Office and asked them to
verify if documents such as the ones you have cited actually used the
surname Fitz Alan. They replied that none of the documents they had
been able to check which date after 1313 used the surname Fitz Alan.
This could be why the surname is now set in brackets in the National
Archives catalogue, because it does not occur in the original records.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Renia wrote:

< Would that editor necessarily know the family was sometimes known as
< "FitzAlan"? Or would the editor have found that information within
the
< original document they were summarising. Only way to find out, is to
< look at the original document.

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 mai 2006 16:58:56

Doug
Thank You for the interesting find. Do you know why the grandmother and
her sister's were sueing the supposed granddaughter?
Douglas Richardson wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/18/06 10:51:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Now, you're disputing if her name was Ellen
Quincy or Ellen de Quincy.

Not more than one week ago, you took me to task for using an "English" proper
name with "de", implying that "de" could only be used with the French or
*Latin* (as you say) versions of the name.

I'm just returning the favor :)

If I corrected you, Will, it was to help you, not to embarass you. If
you thought otherwise, I apologize.

Perhaps you should replay the original post I made in which I allegedly
"took you to task." Then, I might know better what you were talking
about. Also, you need to make clearer the nature of your current
question. I'm still clueless what you really want.

If this helps, the article "de" was used with some English surnames
until about 1400, when it was phased out. Since Ellen de Quincy lived
prior to 1400, her correct surname is "de Quincy."

DR

Gjest

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 mai 2006 18:32:34

(1/4 of my ancestry is southeast Asian).

NOW, THAT MIGHT BE A LITTLE VARIETY. Any traceable pre-1600?


-------The Indonesian lines only go into the 1800s.

Leslie

John Higgins

Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Bass

Legg inn av John Higgins » 20 mai 2006 18:42:06

The assignment of Mary Basset, wife of William Beaumont of Cole Orton, to
the Blore Bassets is based on an extensive pedigree of most of the Basset
branches in Nichols' Leics, vol. 4. Nichols cites as sources an MS of Sir
William Dugdale as well as an MSS collection of Sampson Erdeswicke.
Although the pedigree is quite extensive, it likely is incomplete (for
example, it does not include the Fledburgh branch at all), and I would
consider the identification of Mary's parents to perhaps be tentative at
this point.

The pedigree in Farnham referenced by "The Beaumonts in History" is not a
full pedigree of the family but simply an outline of the descent of the Cole
Orton branch from the Maureward family. My copy of the pedigree in Farnham
doesn't show any sources for the pedigree, in particular the statement that
William Beaumont mar. Mary, dau. of Thomas Basset of Fledburgh, Notts. I
suspect, however, that this may have come from the visitations of Nottingham
(published as Harleian Society vol. 4) where an unnamed daughter of "Thomas
Bassett of Fledborough" and his wife Margaret Meering is said to have mar.
an unnamed Beaumont of Cole Orton. So, we have another example of one set
of information in Nichols and another, conflicting, set in a visitation
pedigree.

If anyone has better sources on the various Basset branches and their
connections to one another, they would be welcome....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Louise Staley" <caramut@bigpond.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: Brok line - Mary Countess of Buckingham --> William Basset
(Fledburgh)


John Higgins wrote:
If this is based on what's in Genealogics, it's almost certainly another
Paget error. Mary Basset the mother of Anthony Beaumont of Glenfield is
more likely the daughter of William Basset of Blore [not Fledburgh} (d.
1497
or 1498) and Joan Byron, not William Basset of Fledburgh (d. before
1442)
and Catherine Stanhope, as Paget has it.

I am very interested in this idea that Mary Basset is actually from the
Blore Bassets rather than the Fledburgh ones and was the daughter of
William of Blore. Could you provide a source for this statement?

Interestingly "The Beaumonts in History" p125 says she was the daughter
of Sir Thomas Basset of Blore and cites Farnham, Leic. Pedigrees for
this gem. While Beaumont is a very variable source, and has completely
confused the Devon and Cornish Beaumonts, it is much better on the
Leicestershire ones. Having not seen Farnham I don't know if this is an
accurate representation of what he says.

Moral: Don't trust Paget without first checking other sources....

Will Johnson wrote:

In the old DNB entry for "Villiers, Edward" it remarks that
Mary [Beaumont], the Countess of Buckingham died 19 Apr 1632 and buried
aged 63 in St Edmund's Chapel, Westminster Abbey

The Beaumont book cites her MI which says she was 62 years, 11 months
and 19 days old at death, so born 30 April 1569

Here we have an opposite problem to the last one I posed.
1) d aged 63
2) dau of Anthony Beaumont of Glenfield
3) son of Mary Basset who d 6 Jul 1539
4) dau of William Basset of Fledburgh who d "bef 1442" as Leo has it.

4 implies that Mary Basset was born by 1442.
Yet 1 implies her granddaughter was born 1568/9

That isn't possible in my opinion.

Either we have two Mary Basset's, one the dau of William d bef 1442
and one much younger, or the wife of William Beaumont of Cole-Orton
was not named Mary Basset

Will Johnson


John Higgins

Taylor [was Re: Thomas Williamson, Bnt in 1642]

Legg inn av John Higgins » 20 mai 2006 19:06:02

There is a bit of information on the Taylors in Maddison's Lincolnshire
Pedigrees (Harleian Society vols. 50-52 and 55), as well as some of the
families to whom they are ancestrally connected.

At 52:950-1 Thomas Taylor of Doddington (d. 1652/3) and his sister Jane the
wife of George Anton (and mother of Elizabeth [Anton] Hussey) are shown as
the children of an elder Thomas Taylor, recorder of the Bishop of Lincoln,
who bought Doddington in 1593 and d. 24 Nov 1607. All the children of the
elder Thomas (these two and others) are by his 2nd wife Jane, dau. of Martin
Hollingworth, draper and Mayor of Lincoln in 1560.

No ancestry is given by Maddison for either the elder Thomas Taylor or
Martin Hollingworth, but there is an extensive pedigree for the family of
Martin's wife Anne [or Amy] Sapcotts.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas Williamson, Bnt in 1642


I think that yesterday I may have goofed in stating that Thomas Williamson
survived until at least 1689.

OneWorldTree, not a good source, but mentions that Thomas had a son also
Thomas and also a baronet and it was *he* who I am seeing in the later
records
(only stated as Thomas Williamson bnt, not 2nd).

At any rate, OneWorldTree states that the elder Thomas Williamson, bart
married Jane Hussey of Honington, dau of Edward Hussey bart of Honington
and his
wife Elizabeth Anton

It then goes on to state that Elizabeth Anton is the dau of George Anton
and
his wife Jane Tailor. Then I get confusion.

However I have located a source which does give good reference to the
idea,
at least, that the wife of Edward Hussey was heir to "her uncle Thomas
Tailor"
who was seized of Doddington at the time of his death in 1653.

Now I'm wondering if, using the fact that he held Doddington, it would be
possible to give Thomas Tailor some parents ?

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson


Gjest

re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 mai 2006 19:49:02

Saturday, 20 May, 2006


Dear Tim (et al.),

Getting back to the issues you raised re: my prior de Camville
posts, and taking some time to review my data vs. your queries, I
see where I was confusing my view of 3 Richards (de Camville) vs.
the 2 (father and son) I believe you were referencing. I agree,
that as to the son Richard, the tenure of Brattleby actually has
no bearing.

I do not have a copy of DD to hand, and know nothing of the
Alice (alleged first wife of Richard 'I' de Camville). Isabel de
Camville was clearly a daughter of Millicent of Rethel (evidently
2nd wife, formerly m. to Robert Marmion, murdered ca. 1144) given
her maritagium in Stanton Harcourt: there is some basis for
assigning Richard as a son of Millicent as well. That being said,
given the chronology of the career of Gerard de Camville and of
his son Richard (who was probably born ca. 1170/1180 based on his
marriage to Eustache Bisset), I don't see any particular reason to
attribute Gerard's birth to a period before 1145.

I do wonder about the DD article, if it assigns only 3 children
to Richard 'I' de Camville: I show six, including 4 sons. Could you
advise of the particulars from this entry, including the children
identified? There seems to be something (and someones) missing.

Following is a pedigree as I currently have it, from Richard 'I'
de Camville's maternal grandfather Aubrey (Alberic) de Ver down to
the children, and some grandchildren, of Richard. I'd be interested
in any additional documentation re: same, or any errors that might
be noted (incl. further particulars on the alleged first wife Alice).

Cheers,

John






1 Aubrey de Ver
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1113[1]
Burial: Colne Priory, Essex[1]

styled Aubrey the chamberlain ('Alberici camerarii') as witness of royal
charter, 1084

received grant from King William of estates of a thegn Wulfwine in
north Essex, south Suffolk and Cambridgeshire; held Kensington in
Middlesex, and other lands of Conan, Count of Brittany
held in chief 14 manors in Essex, with 2 houses and 3 acres in
Colchester, 9 estates in Suffolk, 7 in Cambs. and 2 in Hunts.;
and held Kensington in Middlesex and two properties in Northants.
of the Bishop of Coutances, and lands in Hunts. of the Abbot of
Ramsey, and in Essex of Count Alan of Brittany, at Domesday
Book, 1086[1]

a tenant of the Bishop of Coutances in Normandy, 1086.
Sheriff of Berkshire, as 'Aubrey de Berkshire' after 1106[1]

Spouse: Beatrice[1]

Children: Aubrey de Vere (<1090-1141), chamberlain of England
NN, a daughter
Robert


1.1 NN de Ver
----------------------------------------

re: her son Richard de Camville, KSB Keats-Rohan wrote:
" His mother was a daughter of Alberic de Vere (cf. Rot. de Dom.
84 an note; Comp. Peer. x, App. J., n. j.), as may be inferred from
the descent of his Domesday manor of Hildersham as the marriage
portion of Matilda de Ros, daughter of Richard; Matilda granted
land there to Clerkenwell priory, c. 1190 when her daughter
Beatrice became a nun and the grant was confirmed by
Alberic III de Ver (Cart. Clerkenwell, 24-26).' [DD 378][2]

Spouse: NN de Camville


Children: Richard (-ca1176)

1.1.1 Richard de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1176[3]

of Stanton, Oxon.[1]
2nd husband of Milicent of Rethel, widow of Robert Marmion[4]

'...Ric(ardo) de Canuilla,...' witness to King Stephen's confirmation
and award of lands at Ickleton, Brookhampton and `Willecroft',
ca. 1145-1150[5]

' Richard de Kanvilla ', witness together with his son Gerard of
Charter of Robert son of Ralph de Bileneie [Binley] confirming
the gift of his brother Joillinus to the monks of Cumba, dated
ca. 1161-1182 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/193[6]

founder of Combe Abbey, co. Warwicks. [DD 378-9][2]:
confirmation by Roger de Mowbray:
' Charter of Roger de Molb'io [Mowbray] addressed to Walter [Durdent]
Bishop of Coventry. confirming to the monks of Cumba in free alms
all the land of Smita given to the said monks for the founding of a
Cistercian abbey by Richard de Camvill' who held the land of the
said Roger for the service of one knight. This the said Roger remits
and agrees to render the service of another knight to the Earl of
Leicester for Brinkelawe [Brinklow] so that the monks shall owe the
said Roger no secular service. The said Roger also grants the dead
wood in his wood of Burtleia [Birchly Wood in Brinklow] together
with rights of pasture and pannage.
Witnesses: Roger de Flamvill', Herbert de Morevill', Richard his
son, William de Arches, Robert de Daivill', Bertrand Haget, William
his son, William de Camvill', Ralph de Belveir, Robert his brother,
Ralph de Betlum and many others.
[ Lower part of tag and seal cut away. Endorsed: i) Carta Rogerii
de Molbraio de Smita [contemp]; ii) Tenura de Brink' per ius
feodi --- Burteley pannagium et pastura [AG]. ] -
A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[6]

Spouse: Millicent of Rethel[1],[4]
Birth: ca 1110[4]
Father: Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
Mother: Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
Marr: aft 1143[4]

Children: Maud (ca1145-)
Gerard (ca1150-1214)
Isabel
Richard (-1191)
Walter
William


1.1.1.1 Maud de Camville
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1145[2]

'Matilda de Ros', had the manor of Hildersham (or a moiety thereof)
as her maritagium; she granted land there to Clerkenwell priory,
ca. 1190 when her daughter Beatrice became a nun. (confirmed by Aubrey
III de Vere) [DD 378-9, citing Cart. Clerkenwell, 24-26[2]]

Spouse: William de Ros

Children: Beatrice


1.1.1.2 Gerard de Camville[7]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1150
Death: 1214[4]

lord of Camville

Charter of Gerard de Camvilla dated 1176-83, addressed to Richard
bishop of Chester, confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the
monks of the Cistercian order there serving God, the gift which his
father Richard de Camvilla made to the said abbey, namely the whole
land of Smita to found an abbey of the Cistercian order, with
demesne and other appurtenances in wood and plain, in ways and paths,
in land and water, in meadows and pastures, and in free alms quit
from all earthly service and secular exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de
Camvill' his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla. '
[ Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion passant.
Note : For date and seal: see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
p. 8.] - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory
of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[6]

sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1189[8], and again 1199-1205[9]

according to Inq.p.m. (for later tenant), he 'intruded upon the manor'
of Benham, co. Berks. following the death of his brother Richard
[the manor then escheating to the crown, with Hugh Wake being
enfeoffed by King Richard I][3]

a supporter of John, count of Mortain in the absence of Richard:
' Longchamp [William, bp of Ely and regent] in 1191 removed him
from the shrievalty [of Lincolnshire], and attempted to reduce
Lincoln Castle; but it was stoutly defended by Nicholaa,
Camville himself being with John until the fall of Nottingham and
Tickhill compelled Longchamp to raise the siege. Camville was
excommunicated the same year. On Richard's return in 1194
he was deprived of the wardenship of Lincoln Castle and the
shrievalty of the county, and was arraigned by Longchamp
at Nottingham on a charge of harbouring robbers and
treating the king's writ with contempt. His estates were
forfeited, but he recovered them on payment of a fine of
2,000 marks. His wife also paid a fine of 200 marks...
On the accession of John, Camville was reappointed
warden of Lincoln Castle and sheriff of the county, and
purchased from the king for 1,000 marks the lands of
Thomas de Verdun and the wardship of his widow, with
liberty to marry her to his son Richard. ' [DNB p. 856[10]]

recorded as Sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1200-01:
' 302. Lincolnshire:- Gerard de Canville (Hubert fitz Richard for
him) renders his accunt. ' [Bain I:48[11], cites Pipe Roll 2 John,
Rot. 6]

also shown by Anthony Wagner, pedigree of 'English Ancestors of
Edward IV'[7]
first husband of Nichola de la Haye (cf. CP IV:118, sub Deincourt)[1]

had a charter for a market at Stoney Middleton, co. Oxon:
' (Grant: other) gr 1201, by K John to Gerard de Camville (VCH
Oxfordshire, vi, p. 245). '[12]

cf. Painter, p. 84[9]

Spouse: Nicole de la Haye[7]
Death: 1230[4]
Father: Richard de la Haye (->1189)
Mother: Matilda de Vernon (ca1128-)
Marr: bef 1185[4]

Children: Richard (-<1230)


1.1.1.2.1 Richard de Camville[7]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1230, d.v.m.[13]

of Avington, co. Berks., Godington, Stoney Middleton, and Stratton,
co. Oxon.
lord of Camville

his father purchased the marriage of Eustache Basset, widow of
Thomas de Verdun in 1199 (Paul Reed, FASG citing the Pipe
Rolls)[14],[10]


a record from the plea rolls, 1207/8:

' Curia Regis Roll. Mich. 9. John, m. 4.

Oxon. - The Prior of Kenilworth sued Nicholas de Verdun (called
to warranty by Richard de Canvill and Eustachia, his wife) for
the next presentation to the church of Hethe.

Lecelina de Clinton.
I
Bertram de Verdun.
_______I___________________________________________________
I I
Thomas de Verdun, = Eustachia. = Richard de Nicholas de Verdun,
first husband, Canvill, the defendant.
ob. s.p. second husband.

' [Gen XX:165[15]]


Spouse: Eustache Basset[1]
Father: Gilbert Basset (-<1205)
Mother: Egeline de Courtenay
Marr: ca 1199[14],[10]

Children: Idoine (-<1252)


1.1.1.2.1.1 Idoine de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 21 Sep 1252[16]

heiress of her father[1], and her grandmother Nichola de la Haye[13]

evidently also heiress of her mother - the manor of Wretchwick, Oxon.
was part of the maritagium of her daughter Ela (m. James de Audley),
and her husband William Longespee had a charter for a market at
Bicester granted 20 Oct 1239[12]

her inheritance included the manor of Brattleby, Lincs. (CP XI:385)[1]
and a third part of the manor of Shalford, co. Surrey [see suit
brought by Ingram de Preaux, Sept 1226 - Eyton, V:291][17]

Spouse: Sir William Longespee
Death: 7 Feb 1249, battle of Mansura, Egypt (on crusade)[16]
Birth: bef 12 May 1205[18]
Father: William Longespee (ca1175-1225)
Mother: Ela of Salisbury (ca1187-1261)
Marr: aft Apr 1216[1]

Children: Sir William (-1257)
Ela (-<1299)
Ida (->1261)
Richard (-<1261)


1.1.1.3 Isabel de Camville
----------------------------------------

lady of Stanton, co. Oxon[1]
(received Stanton as her maritagium from her mother)[4]

called daughter and eventual heir of Richard de Camville 'the
younger' (her brother) in Loyd (p. 29, No. 42[19]), but the
chronology and her maritagium make her identification as shown
certain.

Spouse: Robert de Harcourt
Death: ca 1206[2]
Father: Ivo de Harcourt (->1166)
Mother: NN

Children: Alice (->1212)
William (-1228)


1.1.1.4 Richard de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: 1191, probably Cyprus (on crusade)[20],[21]

of Benham, co. Berks.

witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated
1176-83, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming
gift of their father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba,
ca. 1176-83 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/194[6]

" Ricardus de Camuill' ", granted a charter to Richard Pipard
restoring land in Stanton Harcourt, co. Oxon. which his
grandfather Sir Leger had held by the gift of Richard de
Camville and Milicent his wife (parents of Richard de Camville),
dated at Stanton (est. 1176-1191, but before 1191 when on crusade)
[Loyd p. 29, No. 42[19]]

companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; with Robert de Sable,
commander of the main flotilla (63 ships) sailing to Marseilles
to embark Richard I for the crusade (July 1190)
governor [Justiciar] of the island of Cyprus with Robert de
Thornham following its conquest, June 1191[20],[21]
died in Palestine according to sources[3]; in Cyprus according to
Runciman[21], given his administration there[20]

Children: John


1.1.1.5 Walter de Camville
----------------------------------------

witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated
1176-83, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift
of their father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca.
1176-83 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/194[6]


1.1.1.6 William de Camville[1]
----------------------------------------

witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated
1176-83, addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift
of their father Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca.
1176-83 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/194[6]

cf. DNB 856-7 (de Camville, Thomas)[10]

Spouse: Aubree Marmion
Death: aft 1232[1]
Father: Geoffrey Marmion

Children: Geoffrey (-1219)
NN
Thomas (-1235)



1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul
2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
3. Cristopher Nash, "de Camville (Results and Thanks)," June 2,
2000, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, commentary on research of
Dexter Kenfield, pub. May 31, 2000, cites Inquisitions Post
Mortem Henry III, 1904, 294,, item 658 - C. Hen. III. File 44. (11).
4. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury,"
Apr 14, 1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, reposted as "Re:
Marmion Question", Aug 28, 1999, Alan B. Wilson
{abwilson@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
5. Nicholas Vincent, "New Charters of King Stephen with Some
Reflections upon the Royal Forests During the Anarchy," The
English Historical Review, Feb. 1999, cites charters of reign
of King Stephen not previously identified, or published:
incl. Confirmation of gifts made by Earl William de Warenne,
PRO, E 159/99 (Memoranda Roll, 18 Edward II), m.149d, recited
before the Exchequer.
6. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
7. "Pedigree and Progress," Sir Anthony Wagner, London: Phillimore
& Co., Ltd., 1975.
8. Cristopher Nash, "Which Richard de Camville married Millicent?,"
May 31, 2000, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, resp. to email, Dexter
Kenfield (dekester@mindspring.com).
9. Sidney Painter, "The Reign of King John," Baltimore: The Johns
Hopkins Press, 1949.
10. "Gerard de Camville [article]," Dictionary of National Biography,
Oxford Univ. Press, p. 856: Gerard de Camville.
11. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
12. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
13. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent,
1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
14. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Clemence Dauntsey," Nov 16, 2001,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, information also posted by Todd A.
Farmerie.
15. Hon. George Wrottesley, "Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls," The
Genealogist (N.S.), Vol. XX, 1904, pp. 28 et seq.
16. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
17. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London: John
Russell Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster)
and 133-142 (Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole Brace
and de Bracy).
18. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation,"
Sept 14, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, re: Idoine de Camville,
cites Farrer (Honors and Knights' Fees 2:222), Farrer citing R.
Lit.Claus 2:110b, 123 [Close Rolls].
19. Lewis C. Loyd and Doris M. Stenton, eds., "Sir Christopher
Hatton's Book of Seals," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1950.
20. "Richard I," John Gillingham, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1999, 129, 152 (de Camville), Yale English Monarchs series.
21. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols),"
Cambridge Univ. Press, 1954.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 mai 2006 22:29:17

In message of 20 May, Therav3@aol.com wrote:

Getting back to the issues you raised re: my prior de Camville
posts, and taking some time to review my data vs. your queries, I
see where I was confusing my view of 3 Richards (de Camville) vs.
the 2 (father and son) I believe you were referencing. I agree,
that as to the son Richard, the tenure of Brattleby actually has
no bearing.

I do not have a copy of DD to hand, and know nothing of the
Alice (alleged first wife of Richard 'I' de Camville). Isabel de
Camville was clearly a daughter of Millicent of Rethel (evidently
2nd wife, formerly m. to Robert Marmion, murdered ca. 1144) given
her maritagium in Stanton Harcourt: there is some basis for
assigning Richard as a son of Millicent as well. That being said,
given the chronology of the career of Gerard de Camville and of
his son Richard (who was probably born ca. 1170/1180 based on his
marriage to Eustache Bisset), I don't see any particular reason to
attribute Gerard's birth to a period before 1145.

I do wonder about the DD article, if it assigns only 3 children
to Richard 'I' de Camville: I show six, including 4 sons. Could you
advise of the particulars from this entry, including the children
identified? There seems to be something (and someones) missing.

DD pp. 378-9 has:

de Camvilla, Ricardus

From Camville-les-Deux-Eglises ... He was twice married, first to
Alice (Bl Add Ch 28324), and secondly to Milisent, widow of Robert
Marmion of Tamworth (d.1143-44), a kinswoman of Queen Adelicia. His
charter for Jumièges granting land at Hautot-l'Auvray mentioned both
wives (Vernier, Chartes de Jumièges ii, 1). ... He had issue his
successor Gerard (d.1214), Richard II (d.1224) and a daughter Matilda
(b.c. 1145), wife of William de Ros (Rot de Dom., 84) ...

This is then followed by half a page of references to source charters,
etc.

As I pointed out earlier, DD does not identify which child was from
which wife.

We are still looking for a reason why the ODBC entry that Gerard (the
successor and therefore eldest surviving son) was the son of Alice (the
first wife above) is false.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John P. Ravilious

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 20 mai 2006 23:04:30

Dear Tim,

Thanks for the details from DD re: Richard 'I' (de Camville).

On the subject of the mother of Gerard de Camville, as I stated
in my last post,
"... given the chronology of the career of Gerard de Camville and of
his son Richard (who was probably born ca. 1170/1180 based on his
marriage to Eustache Bisset), I don't see any particular reason to
attribute Gerard's birth to a period before 1145. "

I cannot at present provide documentation to show the ODNB
attribution of Alice as mother of any child of Richard (including
Gerard or not) is false. Is there any documentation provided by the
article to support the statement that " Gerard (the
successor and therefore eldest surviving son) was the son of Alice" ?
If there is no such documentation in the article, it sounds like a
"said to have been" identification.

Also, I found it interesting that the DD extract re: 'Ricardus de
Camvilla' does not identify any of the other sons, or especially the
daughter Isabel(la), wife of Robert de Harcourt. That she brought
Stanton (later Stanton Harcourt) to the Harcourt family ties her nicely
into this generation, as demonstrated (with errors) by Loyd and later
by Alan Wilson (on SGM). There is an entry for Robert de Harcourt in
DD [ 'Robert filius Ivonis' (DD 917) according to my notes], I wonder
if this also fails to connect the Camville and Harcourt families.

Cheers,

John



Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 20 May, Therav3@aol.com wrote:

Getting back to the issues you raised re: my prior de Camville
posts, and taking some time to review my data vs. your queries, I
see where I was confusing my view of 3 Richards (de Camville) vs.
the 2 (father and son) I believe you were referencing. I agree,
that as to the son Richard, the tenure of Brattleby actually has
no bearing.

I do not have a copy of DD to hand, and know nothing of the
Alice (alleged first wife of Richard 'I' de Camville). Isabel de
Camville was clearly a daughter of Millicent of Rethel (evidently
2nd wife, formerly m. to Robert Marmion, murdered ca. 1144) given
her maritagium in Stanton Harcourt: there is some basis for
assigning Richard as a son of Millicent as well. That being said,
given the chronology of the career of Gerard de Camville and of
his son Richard (who was probably born ca. 1170/1180 based on his
marriage to Eustache Bisset), I don't see any particular reason to
attribute Gerard's birth to a period before 1145.

I do wonder about the DD article, if it assigns only 3 children
to Richard 'I' de Camville: I show six, including 4 sons. Could you
advise of the particulars from this entry, including the children
identified? There seems to be something (and someones) missing.

DD pp. 378-9 has:

de Camvilla, Ricardus

From Camville-les-Deux-Eglises ... He was twice married, first to
Alice (Bl Add Ch 28324), and secondly to Milisent, widow of Robert
Marmion of Tamworth (d.1143-44), a kinswoman of Queen Adelicia. His
charter for Jumièges granting land at Hautot-l'Auvray mentioned both
wives (Vernier, Chartes de Jumièges ii, 1). ... He had issue his
successor Gerard (d.1214), Richard II (d.1224) and a daughter Matilda
(b.c. 1145), wife of William de Ros (Rot de Dom., 84) ...

This is then followed by half a page of references to source charters,
etc.

As I pointed out earlier, DD does not identify which child was from
which wife.

We are still looking for a reason why the ODBC entry that Gerard (the
successor and therefore eldest surviving son) was the son of Alice (the
first wife above) is false.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 mai 2006 23:48:02

In message of 20 May, "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

Thanks for the details from DD re: Richard 'I' (de Camville).

On the subject of the mother of Gerard de Camville, as I stated
in my last post,
"... given the chronology of the career of Gerard de Camville and of
his son Richard (who was probably born ca. 1170/1180 based on his
marriage to Eustache Bisset), I don't see any particular reason to
attribute Gerard's birth to a period before 1145. "

I cannot at present provide documentation to show the ODNB
attribution of Alice as mother of any child of Richard (including
Gerard or not) is false. Is there any documentation provided by the
article to support the statement that " Gerard (the
successor and therefore eldest surviving son) was the son of Alice" ?
If there is no such documentation in the article, it sounds like a
"said to have been" identification.

Currently we do not know which son was the child of which mother. ODNB
thinks it knows and indeed one of the sources might provide some
evidence but they follow the same poor trick of just putting a jumble
of sources at the end of the article and not indicating which piece of
data is sourced by what.

Also, I found it interesting that the DD extract re: 'Ricardus de
Camvilla' does not identify any of the other sons, or especially the
daughter Isabel(la), wife of Robert de Harcourt. That she brought
Stanton (later Stanton Harcourt) to the Harcourt family ties her nicely
into this generation, as demonstrated (with errors) by Loyd and later
by Alan Wilson (on SGM). There is an entry for Robert de Harcourt in
DD [ 'Robert filius Ivonis' (DD 917) according to my notes], I wonder
if this also fails to connect the Camville and Harcourt families.

On p. 917 DD has:

Filius Ivonis, Robert

Son of Ivo de Harcourt. ... He left a son William by his wife Milisent
de Camville at his death c. 1206.

My guess is that Keats-Rohan (or her assistants) did not find enough
evidence to say which Camville family this Milisent belonged to. Do you
have the missing link for this?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Renia

Re: ARUNDELL and ARUNDELL

Legg inn av Renia » 21 mai 2006 00:36:30

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Renia ~

Sometime ago, I contacted the Public Record Office and asked them to
verify if documents such as the ones you have cited actually used the
surname Fitz Alan. They replied that none of the documents they had
been able to check which date after 1313 used the surname Fitz Alan.
This could be why the surname is now set in brackets in the National
Archives catalogue, because it does not occur in the original records.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Renia wrote:

Would that editor necessarily know the family was sometimes known as
"FitzAlan"? Or would the editor have found that information within
the
original document they were summarising. Only way to find out, is to
look at the original document.

OK. Thank you.

Gjest

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 01:53:01

Saturday, 20 May, 2006


Dear Tim,

The line of descent I have followed for the manor of Stanton
Harcourt is as laid out previously, by Alan Wilson and others.
Luckily, the VCH text for Stanton Harcourt is available online, and
I reproduce it here for your review.

The appearance is that Richard 'II' de Camville was the son of
Richard de Camville and Millicent of Rethel, and that
this was the basis for the restoration of Stanton Harcourt by King
Richard ca. 1189/90. The inheritance of Stanton Harcourt by
Isabel (not Millicent) de Camville and her husband Robert de
Harcourt is the basis for the identification I made.

Cheers,

John


P.S. - It appears that KSB K-R has erred, in calling the wife of
Robert (fitz Ivo) de Harcourt "Millicent de Camville" - as shown
in the VCH text, this was Isabel - Millicent was her mother
(Millicent (de Rethel) (de Marmion) de Camville, that is).

========================================

'Stanton Harcourt: Manors and other estates', A History of the
County of Oxford: Volume 12: Wootton Hundred (South) including
Woodstock (1990), pp. 274-81.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=8119

" Manors and other estates
In 1066 STANTON, including land in South Leigh, was held by
Alnod, and in 1086 by Odo of Bayeux: it was reckoned at 26 hides,
(fn. 7) of which one lay in Hanborough and was given to Oseney abbey
c. 1138. (fn. 8) Another 1 ½ hide in 'Pereio', probably in South
Leigh, and held under Odo by Wadard, was apparently absorbed into
the main Stanton estate before the late 12th century. (fn. 9)
Following Odo's forfeiture the estate was held possibly by Ranulf
Flambard, and in 1101 by Rualon d'Avranches, perhaps in
custody. (fn. 10) Before 1130 Henry I gave it to his second wife
Queen Adela, (fn. 11) who alienated it piecemeal, mostly after 1135.
Before 1141 Adela gave to her kinswoman Millicent, wife of Robert
Marmion, land in Stanton Harcourt and South Leigh worth £40, four
fifths of the value in 1086. When Robert died c. 1144 the estate,
later called STANTON HARCOURT, passed to Millicent's second husband
Richard de Camville, on whose death in 1176 it was seized by Henry
II. (fn. 12) It was held in custody by Richard Rufus until
1190, (fn. 13) when Richard I restored it to Richard de Camville's
son Richard, who died on crusade in 1191; it then passed to Robert
de Harcourt of Bosworth (Leics.), who had married the elder Richard
de Camville's daughter Isabel. (fn. 14) Thereafter, apart from a
brief period in the early 17th century, Stanton Harcourt descended
in the main line of the English Harcourts, who made it their
principal seat until the early 18th century. "

Footnotes:

7 V.C.H. Oxon. i. 404; above, S. Leigh, Intro.; Manors.
8 Oseney Cart. i, p. 3; iv, pp. 16-17, 21, 84, 107.
9 V.C.H. Oxon. i. 405; above, Intro.; below.
10 Hist. Mon. Abingdon (Rolls Ser.), ii. 84-5; Royal Writs Eng. (Selden Soc.
lxxvii), p. 485.
11 Reading Cart. i, no. 536a; Pipe R. 1130 (H.M.S.O. facsimile), 6.
12 Reading Cart. i, pp. 402-3, 405-6; Eynsham Cart. i, pp. 398-9; Reg. Regum
Anglo-Norm. iii, no. 140; Complete Peerage, viii. 506-7; Pipe R. 1191 & 92
(P.R.S. N.S. ii), xxv-xxvi.
13 Pipe R. 1182 (P.R.S. xxxi), 124; 1190 (P.R.S. N.S. i), 11; 1191 & 92
(P.R.S. N.S. ii), 100; cf. Eynsham Cart. i, pp.398-9.
14 Sir C. Hatton's Bk. Seals (Northants. Rec. Soc. xv), no. 42; Pipe R. 1191
& 92 (P.R.S. N.S. ii), 251. "

Gjest

re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 01:59:02

Saturday, 20 May, 2006


Dear Tim,

Based on the passage of Stanton Harcourt, bypassing Gerard
or other Camville brothers after the death of Richard 'II' in
1191, it presently seems most reasonable to attribute the issue
of Richard 'I' de Camville as follows:

1) Alice = Richard de Camville = 2) Millicent
I d. ca. 1176 I of Rethel
________________I_______________ I____________
I I I I I I
Gerard William Walter Maud Isabel Richard 'II'
de Camville = William = Robert d. 1191
de Ros de Harcourt


I'd be interested in your views on the same.

Cheers,

John

Gjest

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 03:45:02

A gateway ancestor is anyone who is a gateway to... something.

You can be an England gateway, a royal gateway, a European gateway, or
whatever.

In my opinion anyway.

I don't know where you got the idea that 1701 is important, I have no idea
why myself.

Will

Gjest

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 04:18:02

Dear Ken,
I don`t really know what makes these Gateway (the Royal /
Magna Charta Surety and other nobly descended especially) considered so much
greater than everyone else, other than tying their descendants to the events good
and bad which those people more than any other group caused to happen, plus
these gateways seem to have retained a lot of influence in the formation of the
American Colonies because they tended to be the best educated, though there
were clergymen and sea captains just as well educated and just as influencial
who may not have been Gateways of that type.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

norenxaq

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av norenxaq » 21 mai 2006 05:41:02

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Ken,
I don`t really know what makes these Gateway (the Royal /
Magna Charta Surety and other nobly descended especially) considered so much
greater than everyone else, other than tying their descendants to the events good
and bad which those people more than any other group caused to happen,

it's bragging rights...

Gjest

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 07:18:01

In a message dated 5/20/2006 10:15:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

I have seen it too often used to boast



I don't think I've ever boasted about who I'm descended from.
I might boast about the 30 years of work it took me to prove it....
But that's sort of an empty boast. Some might consider me insane instead.

Will Johnson

norenxaq

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av norenxaq » 21 mai 2006 07:30:02

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/20/2006 10:15:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

I have seen it too often used to boast



I don't think I've ever boasted about who I'm descended from.
I might boast about the 30 years of work it took me to prove it....
But that's sort of an empty boast. Some might consider me insane instead.

Will Johnson



in general, not necessarily only here

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 21 mai 2006 07:51:01

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Gateway Ancestors


| Dear Ken,
| I don`t really know what makes these Gateway (the Royal /
| Magna Charta Surety and other nobly descended especially) considered so much
| greater than everyone else, other than tying their descendants to


A whole grip of further, traceable ancestors. The point is that they are not dead-ends. IMHO.
Ford



| the events good
| and bad which those people more than any other group caused to happen, plus
| these gateways seem to have retained a lot of influence in the formation of the
| American Colonies because they tended to be the best educated, though there
| were clergymen and sea captains just as well educated and just as influencial
| who may not have been Gateways of that type.
|
| Sincerely,
|
| James W Cummings
|
| Dixmont, Maine USA
|
|

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 21 mai 2006 10:39:18

In message of 21 May, Therav3@aol.com wrote:

The line of descent I have followed for the manor of Stanton
Harcourt is as laid out previously, by Alan Wilson and others.
Luckily, the VCH text for Stanton Harcourt is available online, and
I reproduce it here for your review.

The appearance is that Richard 'II' de Camville was the son of
Richard de Camville and Millicent of Rethel, and that
this was the basis for the restoration of Stanton Harcourt by King
Richard ca. 1189/90. The inheritance of Stanton Harcourt by
Isabel (not Millicent) de Camville and her husband Robert de
Harcourt is the basis for the identification I made.

Cheers,

John


P.S. - It appears that KSB K-R has erred, in calling the wife of
Robert (fitz Ivo) de Harcourt "Millicent de Camville" - as shown
in the VCH text, this was Isabel - Millicent was her mother
(Millicent (de Rethel) (de Marmion) de Camville, that is).

========================================

'Stanton Harcourt: Manors and other estates', A History of the
County of Oxford: Volume 12: Wootton Hundred (South) including
Woodstock (1990), pp. 274-81.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=8119

" Manors and other estates
In 1066 STANTON, including land in South Leigh, was held by
Alnod, and in 1086 by Odo of Bayeux: it was reckoned at 26 hides,
(fn. 7) of which one lay in Hanborough and was given to Oseney abbey
c. 1138. (fn. 8) Another 1 ½ hide in 'Pereio', probably in South
Leigh, and held under Odo by Wadard, was apparently absorbed into
the main Stanton estate before the late 12th century. (fn. 9)
Following Odo's forfeiture the estate was held possibly by Ranulf
Flambard, and in 1101 by Rualon d'Avranches, perhaps in
custody. (fn. 10) Before 1130 Henry I gave it to his second wife
Queen Adela, (fn. 11) who alienated it piecemeal, mostly after 1135.
Before 1141 Adela gave to her kinswoman Millicent, wife of Robert
Marmion, land in Stanton Harcourt and South Leigh worth £40, four
fifths of the value in 1086. When Robert died c. 1144 the estate,
later called STANTON HARCOURT, passed to Millicent's second husband
Richard de Camville, on whose death in 1176 it was seized by Henry
II. (fn. 12) It was held in custody by Richard Rufus until
1190, (fn. 13) when Richard I restored it to Richard de Camville's
son Richard, who died on crusade in 1191; it then passed to Robert
de Harcourt of Bosworth (Leics.), who had married the elder Richard
de Camville's daughter Isabel. (fn. 14) Thereafter, apart from a
brief period in the early 17th century, Stanton Harcourt descended
in the main line of the English Harcourts, who made it their
principal seat until the early 18th century. "

Footnotes:

7 V.C.H. Oxon. i. 404; above, S. Leigh, Intro.; Manors.
8 Oseney Cart. i, p. 3; iv, pp. 16-17, 21, 84, 107.
9 V.C.H. Oxon. i. 405; above, Intro.; below.
10 Hist. Mon. Abingdon (Rolls Ser.), ii. 84-5; Royal Writs Eng. (Selden Soc.
lxxvii), p. 485.
11 Reading Cart. i, no. 536a; Pipe R. 1130 (H.M.S.O. facsimile), 6.
12 Reading Cart. i, pp. 402-3, 405-6; Eynsham Cart. i, pp. 398-9; Reg. Regum
Anglo-Norm. iii, no. 140; Complete Peerage, viii. 506-7; Pipe R. 1191 & 92
(P.R.S. N.S. ii), xxv-xxvi.
13 Pipe R. 1182 (P.R.S. xxxi), 124; 1190 (P.R.S. N.S. i), 11; 1191 & 92
(P.R.S. N.S. ii), 100; cf. Eynsham Cart. i, pp.398-9.
14 Sir C. Hatton's Bk. Seals (Northants. Rec. Soc. xv), no. 42; Pipe R. 1191
& 92 (P.R.S. N.S. ii), 251. "

The fascinating thing is that Keats-Rohan gives what looks like much the
same references in her information on Robert filius Ivonis:

Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 44-1c; Pipe Roll 6 Henry II, 35-wklc; Stenton,
"Documents Illustrative of Danelaw" (1920), nos 457-58.

So it would seem that reference needs to be made to those documents to
see what they might imply. Regrettably I do not have access to them.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

SomersetSue

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av SomersetSue » 21 mai 2006 11:18:50

I think for those of us who are in the UK or other European countries
our equivalent of a Gateway ancestor would be one who links us back to
ancestors beyond parish registers. To do that means having to find a
noble or royal link because obviously most people lived and died
without leaving any sort of written record of their existence.
Until two months ago my many years of searching my family tree had got
me back to the earliest parish records for some branches and a little
beyond that with a will on one. I'd thought that was as far as I'd be
likely to get and I'd be very lucky just to do the same for all my
lines.
Finding an ancestor whose surname Fines led me to the Clinton-Fiennes
suddenly opens up a whole new way of looking at my genealogy. So it may
be a technically wrong use of the expression but for me 2x great granny
Sarah Ann Fines is my "gateway".
It's not boasting to have royal or noble ancestry but has brought a lot
of history suddenly more to life for me. Knowing that people I'd heard
of were ancestors makes it more real and interesting.
I have also found it fascinating tracing various links and complicated
relationships. It has made me even more aware how closely related
everyone probably is without knowing it.

Sue

Tim Powys-Lybbe

re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 21 mai 2006 11:22:15

In message of 21 May, Therav3@aol.com wrote:

Based on the passage of Stanton Harcourt, bypassing Gerard
or other Camville brothers after the death of Richard 'II' in
1191, it presently seems most reasonable to attribute the issue
of Richard 'I' de Camville as follows:

1) Alice = Richard de Camville = 2) Millicent
I d. ca. 1176 I of Rethel
________________I_______________ I____________
I I I I I I
Gerard William Walter Maud Isabel Richard 'II'
de Camville = William = Robert d. 1191
de Ros de Harcourt


I'd be interested in your views on the same.

Obviously I have no real idea which children of Richard de Camville were
of which wife, though in DD 378, Keats-Rohan (or an assistant) does
say, in the note on Milisent, that Milisent was the mother of Richard II
de Camville. And we know that ODNB gave Gerard to Alice and Richard to
Millicent.

The main thing I have got is that CP, XII/2 364, calls Isobel de
Camville the "da. and h." of Richard de Camville without specifying
which Richard this might be. I think we know that Richard (d. c.
1176)'s son Gerard had issue (indeed my system gives me a descent from
him) so this Isabel could not be this Richard's heir if CP is right on
this. There is the possibility that Isabel was the da. and h. of
Richard de Camville, the son of Richard and Milisent and indeed this is
what the latest ODNB says. ODNB says that Richard II de Camville's
wife was Hawise dau. of Walter FitzWilliam and seems to imply that
Isabella was their sole dau. and heir, confirming CP.

Keats-Rohan says, DD 378, that Maud de Camville who m. William de Ros
was born in 1145. She also says, p. 1032, that Robert Marmion,
Milisent's first husband, died c. 1144 and which ODNB makes c. 16 Sept
1144. This would, just, allow Maud to be the daughter of either Alice
or Milisent.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 21 mai 2006 11:30:41

In message of 21 May, "SomersetSue" <SueBurne@aol.com> wrote:

I think for those of us who are in the UK or other European countries
our equivalent of a Gateway ancestor would be one who links us back to
ancestors beyond parish registers.

Agreed. But a gateway can be between any two fields so must also
include those pople who link the 16th century to the 15th, etc.

To do that means having to find a noble or royal link because
obviously most people lived and died without leaving any sort of
written record of their existence.

But if some pre-parish records can be found, this does not mean that the
people were noble, let alone royal. Nobility in England is confined to
the Peers who sit (sat) in the House of Lords, England is not like most
Continental countries which had a separate and clear status of nobility
that extended beyond the dukes, earls, barons etc. The more modern
English term for the landowners was gentry but I don't think that was in
use in the middle ages. Just call them landowners?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 15:06:05

Dear Leo,

I do agree with your version of the events.

For your reference, below is the pedigree is I now have it from
Robert II, King of Scots to Christian (Lindsay) (Douglas) (Wemyss)
Auchinleck, including the details as I currently have them for her
children.

Hope this is useful.

Cheers,

John


1 Robert II of Scotland
----------------------------------------
Birth: 2 Mar 1315, Paisley[1]
Death: 19 Apr 1390, Dundonald Castle, Carrick (co. Ayr)[1]
Burial: 13 Aug 1390, Scone, Athol (co. Perth)[1],[2]
Occ: King of Scots 1371 -1390
Father: Walter Stewart (ca1293-1326)
Mother: Marjory Bruce (-1317)

Lord High Steward of Scotland, 1327 - 1371

fought at Halidon Hill, 19 Jul 1333

created Earl of Athol, 16 Feb 1341/2
created Earl of Strathearn after forfeiture of Malise, earl
of Strathearn, 1343

succeeded uncle (David II) as King of Scots, 22 Feb 1370/1371[1]

he m. 1stly Elizabeth Mure,
2ndly Euphemia of Ross[1]

cf. Scots Peerage (Kings of Scots)[1],
Thompson and Hansen 13(1):92 #1078, 14(2):207 #1152[4]

Spouse: Euphemia of Ross [2nd wife]
Death: 1387
Father: Hugh, Earl of Ross (-1333)
Mother: Margaret de Graham
Marr: aft 2 May 1355[1]

Children: Egidia, m. Sir William Douglas of Nithsdale
Elizabeth
David Stewart, E of Strathearn and Caithness
Walter Stewart, E of Athol and Caithness


1.1 Elizabeth Stewart[1]
----------------------------------------

she had the lands of Strathnairn, co. Inverness as her
maritagium [ Lindsay, p. 98[5] ]

cf. SP III:16, sub _Lindsay, Earl of Crawford_[1]
CP III:509[6]

re: her husband:

David Lindsay, Earl of Crawford
lord of Glenesk and Edzell

' Sir David Lindsay of Glen Esk ', a retainer of King Robert III, and
a recipient of one of the ' earliest grants of heritable pensions as
retaining fees ' [Boardman pp. 194-5[2]]

heir of his cousin Sir James Lindsay in lands of Crawford
(entailed)[1],[2]

created Earl of Crawford, 21 April 1398[2] [no later than 2 May
1398] [SP III:16[1]]

famous champion of tournaments
as champion of Scotland, jousted against Lord Welles on London
Bridge at the Feast of St. George, 1390 (defeated Lord Welles there)

addressed King Henry IV of England as 'vostre simple cousin' in a
letter dated 2 Jan 1405 [Lindsay p. 106[5]]

Confirmation by Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany of a charter of
David de Lyndesay, Earl of Crawfurde, dated at Dundee, 10 Dec 1406;
witnesses: William and Walter de Lyndesay, brothers of the Earl,
Alexander de Lyndesay, his son and heir, et multis aliis.
[Robertson's Index, p. 161, no. 4[7]]

Charter to son David de Lyndesay of the lands of Newdoske,
in Kincardineshire; whom failing, to son Gerard de Lyndesay.
Dated at Dundee, 12 Feb 1406/7. [Robertson's Index, p. 161, no. 8[7]]

cf. Robertson's Index, p. 161[7]
CP III:507-509[6]
SP III:16, sub _Lindsay, Earl of Crawford_[1]
Boardman, pp. 198, 200 et seq.[2]
Moncrieffe, The Highland Clans (1967), p. 243

Spouse: Sir David Lindsay, Earl of Crawford
Death: aft 12 Feb 1406, Finhaven castle, Angus[7],[8],[1],[6]
Father: Sir Alexander de Lindsay (-1381)
Mother: Catherine de Stirling (-<1378)
Marr: ca 22 Feb 1374, date of dispensation[6]

Children: Elizabeth, m. Sir Robert Erskine
Alexander (-<1439)
David Lindsay, of Newdosk
Gerard


1.1.1 Alexander Lindsay
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 8 Sep 1439[4]
Occ: Earl of Crawford

2nd Earl of Crawford

Confirmation by Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany of a charter of
David de Lyndesay, Earl of Crawfurde, dated at Dundee, 10 Dec 1406;
witnesses: William and Walter de Lyndesay, brothers of the Earl,
Alexander de Lyndesay, his son and heir, et multis aliis.
[Robertson's Index, p. 161, no. 4[7]]

' On the 20th Nov. 1407, Henry IV. grants, at the supplication of
the Earl of Douglas, a safe-conduct to his "carissimo consanguineo,"
Alexander Earl of Crawford, to pass through his dominions with twenty
persons in his company to Amyas (Amiens ?) in France, and to return
by the same route. Rot. Scot., tom. ii. p. 185. ' [Lindsay p. 120[5]]

styled 'consanguineus' of King Henry VI of England,
1421 [CP III:509[6], from Lindsay p. 91[5]]

' Alexander earl of Crawford, 1000 marks ', one of the intended
hostages for the release of King James I under the indenture
between King James and the nine English ambassadors at Durham,
28 March 1424 (pledge, no. 952, and oath taken by the hostages
for King James at Durham, no. 953 - Bain IV:193-4[9])

cf. SP III:17[1]
CP III:509[6]
Thompson and Hansen 13(2):253 #1112[4]

Spouse: Marjory
Death: aft 23 Apr 1429[6]
Marr: bef 1410[6]

Children: David (-1445)
Elizabeth
Christian (->1464)


1.1.1.1 David Lindsay
----------------------------------------
Death: 17 Jan 1445, Finhaven castle, Angus[6]
Occ: Earl of Crawford

3rd Earl of Crawford

cf. CP III:509-510[6]
Lindsay pp. 128-9[5]

Spouse: Marjory Ogilvie
Father: Alexander Ogilvie (->1421)
Marr: ca 1422, dispensation, 4 Kal. Mar 1422/3[6]

Children: Alexander Lindsay, 4th Earl of Crawford
Sir John


1.1.1.2 Elizabeth Lindsay
----------------------------------------

Sir William Douglas of Lochleven (d. 1421) had
dispensation to marry Elizabeth Lindsay, daughter of
Alexander Lindsay, 2nd Earl of Crawford, as appears from
" a dispensation by Henry, Bishop of St. Andrews, for the
marriage of William Douglas of St. Andrews diocese, and
Elizabeth Lindsay of Brechin diocese, they being in the
third and fourth degrees of consanguinity. "
[Correction to SP VI:365[1], sub _Douglas, Earl of Morton_,
which cites Harl. MS., 6438. See J. Ravilious,
<SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay
wife>, SGM, 20 May 2006[10]]


1.1.1.3a Christian (Lindsay)*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1464[1]

' Dame Crystyane of Douglas, the wiffe of qwylom Schir Willyame
of Douglas ', widow of Sir William Douglas, received an Obligation
of David Wemyss as his intended wife 'regarding her terce',
1 February 1423/4 [Wemyss II:47-48, no. 36[11]]

married on or before 4 February 1423/4:
charter of Henry Wardlaw, Bishop of St. Andrews, to David Wemyss
and 'lady Christian de Douglas, his wife' [" dilectis nostris
Dauid de Wemys, filio domini Johannis de Wemys, domini de Reress,
et domine Christiane de Dowglas, sponse sue"], of the lands of
Methil ["Methkil"], dated at St. Andrews, 4 February
1423/4 [Wemyss II:48-49, no. 37[11]]

' 167. Notarial Instrument of Sasine certifying that, in
presence of Robert Broky, notary public, and witnesses,
personally compeared Alexander Malvyne, Thomas Boy, Henry
Boy, Thomas Boy, younger, and David Galychtli, and asserted
upon oath that they were present as witnesses when Sir John
of Vemis, lord of Reres, delivered to Isabella, his spouse,
sasine of the lands of Wester Rath, Glennistoun, and Polgulde,
with the pertinents, in the chief messuage of the same, lying
within the sheriffdom of Fife; and that that said Isabella,
in presence of the notary and witnesses, immediately thereafter
gave heritable sasine of the said lands to David of Vemis, her
son, and his heirs. Upon which Dame Cristian of Douglas,
spouse of the said late David of Vemis, craved instruments.
Done in the town of Diserte, 14th September 1430. '
[ Fraser, Wemyss II:266-7, no. 167[11]]

' dominus Jacobus de Awchinlek de eodem, miles ', party to
instrument relative to contract of marriage between his
stepdaughter Eufemia Wemyss ["Eufemia, filia quondam Dauid
de Wemys, progenita inter eundem Dauid et Cristianam, nunc
sponsam dicti domini Jacobi "] and the son and heir of Sir
Andrew Ogilvy of Inchmartin [witnessed by lord Alexander
Barclay of Garntully, knight, Thomas Wemyss of Rares, John
Wemyss of that ilk, James Douglas of Railston, and Henry
Forrester of Nudere, with many others - " domino Alexandro
Berclay de Garntwly, milite, Thoma Wemys de Reras, Johanne
Wemys de eodem, Jacobo Dowglas de Raylstoun, et Henrico
Forstare de Nwdere, cum multis aliis..."], dated at Perth,
22 Jul 1443 [Fraser, Wemyss II:65-66, no. 50[11]]

circumstantial evidence for her identification as daughter of
Alexander Lindsay, 4th Earl of Crawford given by J. Ravilious [10]


re: her 3rd husband, Sir James Auchinleck of that Ilk:

of Auchinleck, co. Ayr

'Schyr Jamys of Achinlek lorde of that ilk, knychtis', witness
(together with Sir George Campbell of Loudoun and others) to
charter of Robert Colville of Ochiltree to his mother Margaret,
dated 10 Sept 1441 [RMS pp. 69-70, No. 302[13]]

'Dominis Jac. de Achinlek [knight]', witness to charer of William,
earl of Douglas to Patrick Hepburn, dated Douglas Castle, 29 June
1444 [RMS p. 124, No. 557[13]]

'Schyr James of Auchinlek of that ilk, knycht', witness (together
with Sir John Wallace of Craige, Robert Fleming and others) to
charter of Archibald Douglas, earl of Moray, to James Douglas
of Heriotmure, 25 Aug 1447 [RMS pp. 68-69, No. 301[13]]

' Sir James of Auchinleck of that ilk, knight', one of the
arbitrators in an exchange of lands between Sir Andrew Ogilvie
of Inchmartin and John Wemyss of that Ilk (his step-son), indenture
presented ' before William Thyne, bailie of the burgh of Dundee '
by Sir Andrew Ogilvie, 21 April 1449 [Melville, III:xviii-xix,
no. 37[14]]

adherent of William Douglas, Earl of Douglas (d. 22 Feb 1451/2):
' In April 1449, with the earl at the height of his power, James
Auchinleck, one of his closest adherents, was slain by Richard
Colville, a member of the family which held the neighbouring
barony of Ochiltree.' [Brown p. 279[12]]
__________________________

she m. 1stly Sir William Douglas of Lochleven,
2ndly David Wemyss,
3rdly James Auchinleck[11]

cf. SP VIII:483, sub _Wemyss, Earls of Wemyss_[1]

Spouse: Sir William Douglas of Lochleven [1st husband]
Death: 1421
Father: Sir Henry Douglas of Lugton(-<1406)
Mother: Marjory Stewart

Children: Sir Henry (->1469)
Alexander
Sir James
Elizabeth


1.1.1.3a.1 Sir Henry Douglas
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1469

knt., of Lochleven

Spouse: Elizabeth Erskine
Father: Robert Erskine (-<1452)
Mother: NN

Children: Sir Robert (-1513)
David
Helen


1.1.1.3a.2 Alexander Douglas
----------------------------------------


1.1.1.3a.3 Sir James Douglas
----------------------------------------

of Railston

' Jacobo Dowglas de Raylstoun ', witness to instrument relative
to contract of marriage between his stepdaughter Eufemia Wemyss
["Eufemia, filia quondam Dauid de Wemys, progenita inter eundem
Dauid et Cristianam, nunc sponsam dicti domini Jacobi "] and the
son and heir of Sir Andrew Ogilvy of Inchmartin [witnessed by
lord Alexander Barclay of Garntully, knight, Thomas Wemyss of
Rares, John Wemyss of same, James Douglas of Railston,
and Henry Forrester of Niddry, with many others - " domino
Alexandro Berclay de Garntwly, milite, Thoma Wemys de Reras,
Johanne Wemys de eodem, Jacobo Dowglas de Raylstoun, et Henrico
Forstare de Nwdere, cum multis aliis..."], dated at Perth, 22
Jul 1443 [Fraser, Wemyss II:65-66, no. 50[11]]

Children: Henry


1.1.1.3a.4 Elizabeth Douglas
----------------------------------------

The account re: Elizabeth Douglas, sister of Sir James
Douglas of Ralston, discusses her part in defending King James
I during his assassination at Perth in Feb 1436/7. It also states,

' She afterwards married Richard Lovel of Ballumby, with whom,
on 24 August 1438, she had a charter from Alexander Lindsay,
second Earl of Crawford, of the lands of Muirhouse, co. Inverness.
In this charter she is styled neptis of the Earl, which shows that
the commonly accepted marriage of her father to a daughter of Sir
David Lindsay, first Earl of Crawford, is correct. '
[SP VI:366[1], cites Reg. Mag. Sig., 29 October 1463]

Spouse: Richard Lovel
Father: Sir Richard Lovel


1.1.1.3b Christian (Lindsay)* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: David Wemyss [2nd husband]
Death: bef 14 Sep 1430[11],[1]
Father: Sir John Wemyss (-ca1428)
Mother: Isabel Erskine (-<1427)
Marr: aft 1 Feb 1423[11]

Children: John (ca1425-)
Euphemia
Helen


1.1.1.3b.1 John Wemyss
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1425[1]

of Wemyss, Fife

cf. SP VIII:484, sub _Wemyss, Earls of Wemyss_[1]
Fraser, Wemyss II:54-55, no. 37[11]

Spouse: Margaret Livingston
Father: Robert Livingston of Drumry
Marr: aft 19 Nov 1428[11]


1.1.1.3b.2 Euphemia Wemyss
----------------------------------------

' dominus Jacobus de Awchinlek de eodem, miles ', party to
instrument relative to contract of marriage between his
stepdaughter Eufemia Wemyss and the son and heir of Sir
Andrew Ogilvy of Inchmartin, dated at Perth,
22 Jul 1443 [Fraser, Wemyss II:65-66, no. 50[11]]

cf. SP VIII:483, sub _Wemyss, Earls of Wemyss_[1]
Fraser, Wemyss II:54-55, no. 41[11]

Spouse: William Livingston of Drumry
Father: Robert Livingston of Drumry
Marr: aft 19 Nov 1428[11]


1.1.1.3b.3 Helen Wemyss
----------------------------------------


1.1.1.3c Christian (Lindsay)* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Sir James Auchinleck of that Ilk [3rd husband]
Death: bef 17 Oct 1449, Ayrshire (murdered)[15],[12]
Father: Sir John de Auchinleck

Children: Sir John (->1499)
James
Adam


1.1.1.3c.1 Sir John Auchinleck of that Ilk[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1499[16]

knt., of Auchinleck, co. Ayr

" John Auchinleck, son and heir of 'quondam' James Auchinleck of
that Ilk ", had a charter in his favour dated 17 Oct 1449,
confirmed by King James II 26 Oct 1450 [James II, p. 57[15]]

supporter of William, Earl of Douglas, 1452[12]

Member of Parliament for Ayshire, 1461 and 1469 [16]

" lovit cousin and squire, John of Auchinleck of that Ilk ", had
a charter from his kinsman David Lindsay, (5th) Earl of Crawford
confirming a grant in 1466 [Lindsay p. 117[5]]

'Dominum Johannem de Achinlek de eodem' [knight], subscriber
(together with Sir John Chalmers, Robert Crawford of Auchinames,
Quintin Mure, David Wallace, George Stewart, William Auchinleck,
John Hamilton and George Fullarton) to the inquisition which
found Alexander Montgomery to be the legitimate heir of his
father in the Bailiery of Cunyngham, and of age; inquisition
held at Linlithgow, 17 June 1466 in a court before Sir John
Colquhoun and Master David Guthrie, treasurer of the King
[Fraser, Memorials II:36-37, No. 45[17]; I:26 states, ' He
was served heir to his father in the bailiary of Cuninghame
on 17th June 1466. ' ]

' In 1474 an arrangement was entered into between Sir John Achinlek
of that Ilk and David Ogilvy of Inchmartyn by the good offices of
friends, and to complete a contract made between their fathers,
Sir James of Achinlek and Sir Andrew of Ogilvy, as the result of
which David acquired eight merks of the lands of Barres in the
barony thereof and shire of Kincardine. ' [SP IV:30-31[1],
sub _Ogilvy, Earl of Findlater_, cites Reg. Ho. Charters, Nos. 445-450]

represented Ayrshire in Parliament, 1478 and 1487

' On 2 December 1494 Archibald, Earl of Angus, Chancellor of
Scotland, sued David [Ogilvy] for the wrongous detention of
the profits of the lands of Barras for five years, while
David brought an action against John Auchinleck of that Ilk
to warrant him in said rents. ' [SP IV:31[1], cites Acta
Auditorum, 188.]

disponed estate to daughter and William Cunyngham, husband,
in 1499 without the King's consent, acc. to Nisbet [16]

Spouse: [theorized] NN Melville

Children: Marion


1. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh: David
Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
2. Stephen I Boardman, "The Early Stewart Kings: Robert II and Robert
III, 1371-1406," East Linton: Tuckwell Press, 1996, (The Stewart
Dynasty in Scotland Series, Vol. I).
3. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com,
history and evidences concerning the Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
4. Neil D Thompson and Charles M Hansen, ""A Medieval Heritage: The
Ancestry of Charles II, King of England"," The Genealogist
URL: http://fmg.ac/Projects/CharlesII/
5. Alexander Crawford Lindsay, "Lives of the Lindsays, or, A Memoir
of the Houses of Crawford and Balcarres," London: J. Murray, 1849,
.pdf image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
6. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
7. William Robertson, Esq., " An index, drawn up about the year
1629, of many records of charters, granted by the different
sovereigns of Scotland between the years 1309 and 1413,...,"
Edinburgh: Printed by Murray & Cochrane, 1798, full title: An
index, drawn up about the year 1629, of many records of charters,
granted by the different sovereigns of Scotland between the years
1309 and 1413, most of which records have been long missing,
With an introduction, giving a state, founded on authentic
documents still preserved, of the ancient records of Scotland,
which were in that kingdom in the year 1292, To which are
subjoined, indexes of the persons and places mentioned in
those charters, alphabetically arranged.
8. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr &
David Faris).
9. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1888 (Vol. IV),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
10. John P. Ravilious, "SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his
Lindsay wife," 20 May 2006, cites evidence from Scots Peerage
and other sources re: identity of wife of Sir William Douglas
of Lochleven (d. 1421), David Wemyss and James Auchinleck,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
11. William Fraser, "Memorials of the family of Wemyss of Wemyss,"
Edinburgh, 1888, 2 vols.
12. Michael Brown, "The Black Douglases," East Linton: Tuckwell
Press, 1998.
13. "Registrum Magni Sigilli Regum Scotorum," The Register of the
Great Seal of Scotland, ed. James Balfour Paul, Edinburgh: H.
M. General Register House, 1882 [A.D. 1424-1513]].
14. Sir William Fraser, "The Melvilles: Earls of Melville and the
Leslies, Earls of Leven," Edinburgh: published for the author,
1890 (Vol. III).
15. Christine McGladdery, "James II," Edinburgh: John Donald
Publishers, Ltd., 1990.
16. James Paterson, "History of the County of Ayrshire," Ayr:
J. Dick, Vol. I, 1847; Vol. II, 1852, II: 248-249, Cunningham
of Ashinyards, full title: History of the County of Ayr with a
genealogical account of the Families of Ayrshire.
17. William Fraser, "Memorials of the Montgomeries, Earls of
Eglinton," Edinburgh: published for the author, 1859.

Gjest

re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 15:27:03

Sunday, 21 May, 2006


Dear Tim (et al.),

It would be of great interest to see the 'original' texts, given
the divergent placement of Isabel de Camville as alternately dau. of
Richard 'I' or 'II' de Camville.

For some additional evidence, I prepared a pedigree from
Millicent of Rethel and Richard 'I' de Camville to their great-great
granddaughter (2 greats acc. to CP and Keats-Rohan) Isabel Mauduit,
heiress (in her issue) of the Earldom of Warwick. By my reckoning,
for the one group of generations we have a reasonable chance of
placing in an accurate chronological framework, we would have a
two-generation span, with Isabel de Camville [as daughter of
Millicent of Rethel) being born say 1145/1150, and her granddaughter
(my reckoning) Alice de Newburgh being born say 1197/1205, of
between say 60 (1145 to 1205) and 47 (1150 to 1197) years. These
numbers give average generational spans of between say 30 and 23.5
years, which are certainly reasonable.

If we add in an additional generation (with Richard 'II' de
Camville, as per Keats-Rohan and CP, being born say 1145/50 and as
the father of Isabel de Camville), from Richard to his then
great-granddaughter Alice de Newburgh we would have a
three-generation span of between say 60 (1145 to 1205) and 47
(1150 to 1197) years. These numbers give average generational
spans of between say 20 and 15.6 years, which are not unreasonable.

Short of finding some other dates involving these individuals
which would serve to make the additional generation (Richard 'II')
definite, or rule it out completely, I think a read of the original
documentation is needed.

Cheers,

John



1 Richard de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1176[1]
Father: NN de Camville
Mother: NN de Ver

of Stanton, Oxon.[2]
2nd husband of Milicent of Rethel, widow of Robert Marmion[3]

'...Ric(ardo) de Canuilla,...' witness to King Stephen's
confirmation and award of lands at Ickleton, Brookhampton and
`Willecroft', ca. 1145-1150[4]

' Richard de Kanvilla ', witness together with his son Gerard of
Charter of Robert son of Ralph de Bileneie [Binley] confirming
the gift of his brother Joillinus to the monks of Cumba, dated
ca. 1161-1182 - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office:
Gregory of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite:
DR10/193[5]

founder of Combe Abbey, co. Warwicks. [DD 378-9][6]:

Spouse: Millicent of Rethel[2],[3]
Birth: ca 1110[3]
Father: Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
Mother: Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
Marr: aft 1143[3]

Children: Maud (ca1145-)
Gerard (ca1150-1214)
Isabel
Richard (-1191)
Walter
William


1.1 Isabel de Camville
----------------------------------------

~ her placement as a daughter of Richard 'I' de Camville
(vs. as a daughter of Richard 'II' de Camville, as per
CP and KSB Keats-Rohan) is currently under study.

lady of Stanton, co. Oxon[2]
(received Stanton as her maritagium from her mother)[3]

called daughter and eventual heir of Richard de Camville
'the younger' (her brother) in Loyd (p. 29, No. 42[7]), but
the chronology and her maritagium make her identification as
shown certain.

Spouse: Robert de Harcourt, of Bosworth, co. Leicester
Death: ca 1206[6]
Father: Ivo de Harcourt (->1166)
Mother: NN

Children: Alice (->1212)
William (-1228)


1.1.1a Alice de Harcourt*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft Aug 1212[2]

she m. lstly John de Limesey [Limesi], of Cavendish,
2ndly Waleran de Newburgh (his 2nd wife)[2]

Spouse: John de Limesi [1st husband]
Death: 1193, d.s.p.[6]
Father: Gerard de Limesi (-<1185)
Mother: Amicia de Bidun (ca1124-)


1.1.1b Alice de Harcourt* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Waleran de Newburgh, Earl of Warwick [2nd husband]
Death: bef 13 Oct 1204[2]
Father: Roger de Newburgh (-1153)
Mother: Gundreda de Warenne (->1165)
Marr: ca 1196[2]

Children: Alice (-<1263)


1.1.1b.1 Alice de Newburgh
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1263[2]

heiress (in her issue) of the Earldom of Warwick

Spouse: William Mauduit, of Hanslope, co. Bucks., Hartley
Mauduit, co. Hants. and Westminster, Middlesex
Death: bef 14 Feb 1256[2]
Father: Robert Mauduit (-1222)
Mother: Isabel Basset

Children: Isabel (-<1268)
William Mauduit, Earl of Warwick (d.s.p.)


1.1.1b.1.1 Isabel Mauduit
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1268[2]

heiress (in her issue) of the Mauduit lands and the Earldom
of Warwick[2]

Spouse: William de Beauchamp
Death: aft 7 Jan 1268[2],[8]
Father: Walter de Beauchamp (-1236)
Mother: NN

Children: William de Beauchamp, 9th Earl of Warwick
Sarah
Walter (-1303)
Joan
Isabel (-1306)
John


1. Cristopher Nash, "de Camville (Results and Thanks)," June 2, 2000,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, commentary on research of Dexter
Kenfield, pub. May 31, 2000, cites Inquisitions Post Mortem
Henry III, 1904, 294,, item 658 - C. Hen. III. File 44. (11).
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury,"
Apr 14, 1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, reposted as "Re:
Marmion Question", Aug 28, 1999, Alan B. Wilson
{abwilson@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
4. Nicholas Vincent, "New Charters of King Stephen with Some
Reflections upon the Royal Forests During the Anarchy," The
English Historical Review, Feb. 1999, cites charters of reign
of King Stephen not previously identified, or published:
incl. Confirmation of gifts made by Earl William de Warenne,
PRO, E 159/99 (Memoranda Roll, 18 Edward II), m.149d, recited
before the Exchequer.
5. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
6. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul
2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
7. Lewis C. Loyd and Doris M. Stenton, eds., "Sir Christopher
Hatton's Book of Seals," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1950.
8. Alan B. Wilson, "Beauchamps of Salwarpe," January 11, 1999,
paper copy: library of John Ravilious, cites Sanders, English
Baronies pp. 75-6 as to ancestry of Beauchamp, of Salwarpe;
also CP; and Turton,, Plantagenet Ancestry, pp. 97, 117.

Hal Bradley

Re: Ancestry of Elizabeth Pilkington m. William Atherton?

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 21 mai 2006 16:11:03

Roger,

For what it's worth, Pilkington's "History of the Pilkington Family of Lancashire" (Liverpool: J. Pilkington, 1912.), p. 47 identifies Elizabeth as the daughter of John & Margaret (de Verdun) Pilkington.

Hal Bradley

From: "roger.tansey@post.harvard.edu" <roger.tansey@post.harvard.edu
Date: Sun May 21 00:32:53 CDT 2006
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Elizabeth Pilkington m. William Atherton?

Taf,

Thank you for the information and perhaps you're correct that
"Hatherley" should have been "Atherton." Following extensive research
(a quick google search for "elizabeth pilkington" and "william
hatherley" - both with and without the "de"), I found absolutely
nothing. . . .

Best wishes,

Roger

Gjest

Re: The quarterings of "Nele" Hussey wife of Richard Disney

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 18:01:52

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

The history of the Manor of Doddington that I've been quoting from, claims to
be at a loss to account for the quarterings taken by Nele. He says a scroll
describes her as Nele Hussey, dau of Sir William Hussey and "over her head is
a shield of her Arms, or rather her father's, with those of Lovell"

The quarterings, as stated in this source go like this [as he states]: "1
Hussey, 2 Plumpton, 3 Nessfield, 4 Hussey, 5 Say, 6 'Arg, a Chevron between 3
Garbs.' [no specification of family name given]"

Can anyone today identify how Nele Hussey could claim Plumpton and Say ?

The rules normally governing the order in which quarterings should be
marshalled [one of those rules that it frequently broken] is that the
patrilinial coat (in this case Hussey) is followed by the oldest
quartering brought into the paternal line by an heiress, then any
quarterings also brought in by that second coat, then the next oldest
quartering brought in by an heiress, etc; the patrilineal coat may be
repeated in the final quarter if desired.

Here, Hussey comes in first as one would expect, then 2. Plumpton,
which would therefore normally be considered the arms of the earliest
heiress in the Hussey line; then 3. Nessfield, for Nele's great-great
grandmother, Elizabeth Nessfield, then 4. Hussey again, then 5. Say,
and then 6. (unidentified). Either 4, 5 and 6 are brought in by
Nessfield - i..e. are coats quartered by Nessfield due to earlier
marriages in that line to heiresses of the Hussey and Say families, or
Nele's paternal ancestors after her great great grandfather married
such heiresses - and we know this was not the case, as they married a
Berkeley, a Blount and a Lovel respectively. Alternatively, the
quarterings could just be all wrong!

MA-R

Gjest

Re: King Arthur's origins.

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 20:20:03

In a message dated 5/21/2006 11:15:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
roblynley@hotmail.com writes:

'Robin


I think "Robin" is a pet-name by the way. Certainly Queen Elizabeth call
Robert 'Robin' when speaking in a familiar way.

Gjest

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 21:17:03

Dear Tim,
with the holders of manors how about manorial lords or feudal
barons or if one lived on their manor, simply Milord. smaller landowners were
landowners or perhaps goodmen for starters.
Sincerely,
James William Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 mai 2006 23:33:02

Most gateway ancestors to the American Colonies arrived between Jamestown
and about 1707....mostly by the middle 1600 time period I suspect. Their
English families had married UP into Royalty, but in the colonies there was no
royalty for them to marry up into so they had to marry Down among the common
folks. When the word got back to England that we were becoming a classless
society they lost interest in coming and so it is critical to find gateway
ancestors during the 1600 time period. We don't look for gateway ancestors whose
families are linked to royalty because it is a snobbish thing to do we do it out
of necessity because the landed aristocracy and royalty are the only ones
with the written records that are necessary for us to trace our ancestry during
medieval times. Once we have found our way back to Willie and to Charlemagne
our ancestry spreads all over Europe.

Jno

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22 mai 2006 01:08:43

mwelch8442@yahoo.com wrote:
Doug
Thank You for the interesting find. Do you know why the grandmother and
her sister's were sueing the supposed granddaughter?

In answer to your question, no, I have no idea why Eupheme de Clavering
was being sued by her grandmother and her grandmother's two sisters.
If the property intended is Syston, Leicestershire, though, perhaps
Farnham will have some record which explains the lawsuit. Eupheme de
Clavering would have to have had some interest in the property for her
to be included as a defendant with her husband. Syston, Leicestershire
may have been Eupheme's maritagium. If so, it could serve as evidence
to prove conclusively that her mother, Margery la Zouche, was the
daughter of Ellen de Quincy.

DR

Renia

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Renia » 22 mai 2006 01:21:09

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 21 May, "SomersetSue" <SueBurne@aol.com> wrote:


I think for those of us who are in the UK or other European countries
our equivalent of a Gateway ancestor would be one who links us back to
ancestors beyond parish registers.


Agreed. But a gateway can be between any two fields so must also
include those pople who link the 16th century to the 15th, etc.


To do that means having to find a noble or royal link because
obviously most people lived and died without leaving any sort of
written record of their existence.


But if some pre-parish records can be found, this does not mean that the
people were noble, let alone royal. Nobility in England is confined to
the Peers who sit (sat) in the House of Lords, England is not like most
Continental countries which had a separate and clear status of nobility
that extended beyond the dukes, earls, barons etc. The more modern
English term for the landowners was gentry but I don't think that was in
use in the middle ages. Just call them landowners?

In the middle ages he'd probably be a tenant-in-chief.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 22 mai 2006 01:29:17

You can find additional information on Richard I de Camville in the
following source:

Cal. of the Manuscripts of the Dean & Chapter of Wells 1 (Hist. MSS.
Comm., vol. 12B, Pt. 1) (1907): 20-23.

My notes of this source indicate that Richard I de Camville died before
1182.

Douglas Richardson

Gjest

re: MacDonald of The Isles

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 03:46:36

Sunday, 21 May, 2006


Dear Leo,

I have seen the Elizabeth m. Angus MacKay link, but am not aware
of any documentation supporting same.

The daughter Mary (m. to Lachlan MacLean) is well supported.
They were married before 3 Id. May [13 May] 1367, as stated by
mandate of Pope Urban V dated at Marseilles:

' To the bishop of Sodor. Mandate, if the facts are as stated,
to absolve Lochlan (Lacolannus) Johannis, called 'Maguilleon'
(Maclean), donsel, and Mary de Insulis, daughter of John, lord of
the Isles, from the excommunication which they have incurred by
intermarrying without banns, and to grant them a dispensation to
remain in the marriage so contracted, declaring their past and
future offspring legitimate. ' [Bliss and Tremlow, eds. Calendar of
Entries in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and
Ireland, Papal Letters (A.D. 1362-1404), IV:63].

The record of this dispensation for the marriage, as
given by Andrew Stuart:
' Dispen. Lotolamio filio Joannis dicti Magrilleon
Domicello Sodoren. et Mariae de Insulis filiae Joannis,...1366.'
[Andrew Stuart, Genealogical History of the Stuarts, p. 447].

There is the ongoing issue of Agnes 'de Insulis', wife of Sir
John Montgomery (d. ca. 1428). Andrew MacEwen is of a different
opinion, but I have become somewhat re-inclined to attribute this
Agnes as a younger daughter of John, Lord of the Isles by his
2nd wife Margaret Stewart. This is shown in Munro, Acts of the
Lords of the Isles, p. 298 (Appendix D), but there are certainly
flaws in the genealogy of the MacDonalds presented there. I will
present what evidence I see as supporting same, if requested:
however, it remains circumstantial, and I would like to find
something definitive (if such evidence exists) before posting
re: same.

Cheers,

John


you wrote:

John Lord of the Isles "Eoin of Isla" married and divorced Amy, daughter of
Roderick MacRuari, they had at least three sons. Then John marries 14 June 1350
Margaret daughter of Robert II, King of Scots and they have five more sons (I
saw six actually) but what about daughters?

Sir Iain Moncreiffe in his "The Highland Clans" gives John and Margaret a
daughter Mary, married to Lachlan Maclean


In a book produced in the Netherlands by the Mackay family is shown that John
and Margaret also had a daughter Elizabeth who married Angus Du Mackay of
Strathnaver.
Burke's Peerage, 1999, page 2378 calls this Elizabeth "sister of Donald Lord
of The Isles" as is also indicated in this Dutch book.


Can these daughters be confirmed? Were there more?


With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Leo van de Pas

Re: MacDonald of The Isles

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 22 mai 2006 04:14:07

Sunday, 21 May, 2006

Dear Leo,
I have seen the Elizabeth m. Angus MacKay link, but am not aware
of any documentation supporting same.

Dear John,


Sources can be sensitive, especially for me as I have to rely on secondary
ones.

The Dutch book referred to is "Geschiedenis van het geslacht Mackay" by
Daniel, Baron Mackay. (History of the family Mackay). It was published by
"Koninklijk Nederlands Genootschap voor geslacht- en wapenkunde" in 1984.

_If only_ it had also been translated. The sources require eight pages and
starts with an introduction telling that the manuscripts used for this book
mainly can be found in the family's archive "the Reay Papers" which are kept
in "Her Majesty's Register House in Edinburgh".

Amongst the manuscripts (they are given in detail) I will try to translate
the description as well as I can:
A manuscript of Donald Macdonald, Lord of the Isles for Angus of Strathnaver
en his eldest son Neil (son of Donald's sister Elizabeth) in regards a
donation of land near Strathallandale and Ferancostgrayg. Witnesses Lauchlan
Makgillan and Roderick Macleod 'cum diversis aliis'.
Dated : 'Apud insulam Arcage, 8 October 1415
Certified copy from 'Acta Dominorum Concilii (lords of Council) dated 15
February 1506, book 18, volume II, fol.200

I would guess this would be acceptable as a primary source.

Hope someone has access to the original.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

norenxaq

Re: Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av norenxaq » 22 mai 2006 04:28:02

Ken (and Norenxaq), I hope the *quantity* of my (children's) known
17th-century immigrant ancestors was not taken as a boast.


it wasn't. my complaint is to people in general who boast about descent
from a famous ancestor or group of them. not how many from a given timeframe

I was
certainly surprised when I compiled that table last year (and I have
discovered a few more since then). I will say that a plurality of these
are connected through working-class denizens (farmers and fisherfolk) of
Essex County, Massachusetts--which is often spoken of as the
best-documented county in New England or even the United States, for
court and vital records continuously from the 1630s to the present, and
represents fields well tilled by local genealogists since the beginnings
of New England genealogical curiosity in the early 19th century. My
children's large number of known 17th-c. ancestors is therefore an
accident of geography.




as happens sometimes

Bob Turcott

RE: Brian Timms' Site (Rolls of Arms)

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 22 mai 2006 15:24:01

To all:
perhaps Brian can put it up for free at rootsweb, I have done this with
my ancestral research.
There are a number of free pages&nbsp;that rootsweb&nbsp; provides for
free, Just an alternative.

Bob





From: Doug Thompson <doug.thompson@virgin.net>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Brian Timms' Site (Rolls of Arms)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:38:24 GMT
I just looked at Brian's excellent site (http://www.briantimms.com/) and
noticed Brian was about to close it down. I'm sure many other readers of
this newsgroup also look at the site.

Brian suggests you copy anything you want before it goes at the end of May!

I've copied all of it.

Doug Thompson


_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm ... direct/01/

Matt Tompkins

Re: King's Sergeant, circa 1445

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 22 mai 2006 15:36:06

the preceding entry in HoP 1439-1509, relating to John Cheyne of Eastchurch
(MP for Kent in 1449), says that he was a King's Sergeant-at-Arms by April 1445

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Is this the same John Cheyne (Cheney) who tudorplace.com.ar shows as being
son to William Cheney and Eleanor Salerne, and wife to Eleanor Shottesbroke, AND
father of John 1st Baron Cheney of Shurland ?


Yes, it is the same man. Wedgwood's HoP 1439-1509 entry begins:

CHEYNE, Sir John (1410-67); of Eastchurch in Sheppey. Victualler of
Calais 1452-9. M.P. Kent 1449 (1). Lancastrian.

S. and h. of William Cheyne (d. 1441) by Margaret da. and h. of Sir
Robert de Shurland; m., c.1439, Eleanor da. of Sir Robert Shottesbrooke
of Faringdon, Berks., and he left nine sons, of whom the third, Sir
John Cheyne, K.G., was summoned to Parlt. as Lord Cheyne in 1487.

Matt Tompkins

Gjest

Re: Hiwis, Blanchminster, Turet etc

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 18:18:02

Tod Farmerie, Louise Staley and Michael Andrews-Reading have all contributed
to this new thread: thanks to all three.

A few points:-
Blanchminster= Whitchurch in Shropshire, but if anybody is trying to trace
the family, you have to be careful in selecting a search string, especially at
the National Library of Wales website- try "blanc?m*: I have even seen
"Blankmostier" in the PRO catalogue!
Hiwis=Huish, mostly based in Dorset
Toret/Turet, son-in law of Haget, is ancestral not only to the
Blanchminsters de Albo Monasterio but also to the Corbets of Caux and Moreton Corbet in
Shropshire, and to the Lestranges ("Stranerius") of Knockin (and later Norfolk),
Leightons and many other Shropshire families.

There are a number of relevant records held in the National Archives,
including:-
IPM of Emma Colshull, wife of John: C138/3/36 (1 HV, Cornwall)
IPM of John Colshull, knight: C138.34.41 (6HV, Cornwall, Devon). He it was
(I think)
who was slain at Agincourt
Proof of age of John Colshull, son of John Colshull, knight: C139/89/67 (16
HVI,
Cornwall)
IPM of Joan Coleshill, d. of John: she died 14th December 1497, but I have
mislaid
my reference to her IPM: she had remarried a Nanfan of Birt's Morton,
Worcs: the
case of Coleshill v. Nanfan, recorded at C44/27/18 in 27 HVI, concerning
the
Cornish manor of Bodannan, might be worth looking at.

There are many relevant family records held in the Cornwall archives - e.g.
Arundell of Lanhearne, references AR/19/2 and 21/3 - which show Joan Coleshill
as the wife of Sir Renfrey Arundel, d.1434, younger son of Sir John Arundel of
Lanhearne, (IPM 13 HVI), ancestor of the Whittingtons of Pauntley, Notgrove,
Upton Solers etc.

As for "Gandewyn", I have him down as a son of Sir Richard Hiwis, by his
marriage to Alice, daughter of Sir Ranulf Blanchminster (MP for Cornwall 1314, d.
1348); Gandewyn is noted as having died in his father's lifetime: perhaps
C138/3/36 will clarify this.

MM

Gjest

Re: Hiwis, Blanchmister, Turet, etc

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 19:01:01

This site refers to some early Cornish Blanchminsters, living at Binhamy
("Bien Aimee, near Bude, Cornwall):-
http://homepages.tesco.net/~k.wasley/Stratton.htmI
MM

Gjest

Re: Hiwis, Blanchminster, Turet etc

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 19:14:52

Millerfairfield@aol.com schrieb:

A few points:-
Blanchminster= Whitchurch in Shropshire, but if anybody is trying to trace
the family, you have to be careful in selecting a search string, especially at
the National Library of Wales website- try "blanc?m*: I have even seen
"Blankmostier" in the PRO catalogue!
Hiwis=Huish, mostly based in Dorset
Toret/Turet, son-in law of Haget, is ancestral not only to the
Blanchminsters de Albo Monasterio but also to the Corbets of Caux and Moreton Corbet in
Shropshire, and to the Lestranges ("Stranerius") of Knockin (and later Norfolk),
Leightons and many other Shropshire families.

Good to see you posting, Michael; my Blanchminster descent is via the
Stranges. Having checked the archives, I see that most of my
contributions were superfluous in any case.

There are a number of relevant records held in the National Archives,
including:-
IPM of Emma Colshull, wife of John: C138/3/36 (1 HV, Cornwall)
IPM of John Colshull, knight: C138.34.41 (6HV, Cornwall, Devon). He it was
(I think) who was slain at Agincourt

This is frequently averred, yet Roskell says that, while he was on the
campaign of 1415 in France - and was knighted during its course - it
was not certain that he was at Agincourt, and was not killed there;
rather, HoP cites a death date of 5 July 1418 (sic), based on CFR xiv
238 and C138/34/41 [presumably his IPM].

Proof of age of John Colshull, son of John Colshull, knight: C139/89/67 (16
HVI, Cornwall) IPM of Joan Coleshill, d. of John: she died 14th
December 1497, but I have mislaid my reference to her IPM: she had
remarried a Nanfan of Birt's Morton, Worcs: the case of Coleshill v.
Nanfan, recorded at C44/27/18 in 27 HVI, concerning the Cornish manor
of Bodannan, might be worth looking at.

There are many relevant family records held in the Cornwall archives - e.g.
Arundell of Lanhearne, references AR/19/2 and 21/3 - which show Joan Coleshill
as the wife of Sir Renfrey Arundel, d.1434, younger son of Sir John Arundel of
Lanhearne, (IPM 13 HVI), ancestor of the Whittingtons of Pauntley, Notgrove,
Upton Solers etc.

As for "Gandewyn", I have him down as a son of Sir Richard Hiwis, by his
marriage to Alice, daughter of Sir Ranulf Blanchminster (MP for Cornwall 1314, d.
1348); Gandewyn is noted as having died in his father's lifetime: perhaps
C138/3/36 will clarify this.

You are quite right - I misread Bowley in assuming that Gandewyn was a
Blanchminster; Bowley merely says he was Ranulph's grandson and heir.

While, unfortunately, I seldom have the opportunity to conduct research
at Cambridge, I may be able to visit Stratton itself in the not too
distant future, and thus access the reference work that A2A says is
kept there.

BTW, I was at Hay-on-Wye last week: am I right in presuming that
Whitney nearby is that connected with the Milbornes?

Regards, Michael

Gjest

Re: Hiwis, Blanchminster, Turet etc

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 21:29:02

In a message dated 5/22/06 9:16:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:

<< IPM of Joan Coleshill, d. of John: she died 14th December 1497, but I
have
mislaid
my reference to her IPM: she had remarried a Nanfan of Birt's Morton,
Worcs: the
case of Coleshill v. Nanfan, recorded at C44/27/18 in 27 HVI, concerning
the
Cornish manor of Bodannan, might be worth looking at. >>

Aha the smoking gun!
I was hoping I'd be able to connect all these new people into my database
somewhere and here it is.

Joan (Jane) Coleshull who d 1497, married 1st Sir Renfrey Arundel of Tremodrat

"AR/17/74-77 John Arundell esquire v. John Nanfan, his wife Joan Nanfan
(formerly the wife of Sir Remfrey Arundell) and her son Remfrey Arundell esquire.
Dispute in 1454-6 over lands in Cornwall."

This line was covered slightly under the thread "Turn again Dick Whittington"
back in January

She secondly, as above, married John Nanfan

John Arundell, Bishop of Coventry in 1499 was the third son of Joan by the
way.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Hiwis, Blanchminster, Turet etc

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 21:31:02

In a message dated 5/22/06 9:16:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:

<< Sir Renfrey Arundel, d.1434, younger son of Sir John Arundel of
Lanhearne, (IPM 13 HVI), ancestor of the Whittingtons of Pauntley,
Notgrove,
Upton Solers etc. >>

What is the proof text for this death date of 1434?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Hiwis, Blanchminster, Turet etc

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 21:37:02

In a message dated 5/22/06 9:16:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:

<< Proof of age of John Colshull, son of John Colshull, knight: C139/89/67
(16
HVI, Cornwall) >>

Would this date 16 Henry VI not be something like 1438/9 ?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: King's Sergeant, circa 1445

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 21:49:02

In a message dated 5/22/06 7:51:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mllt1@le.ac.uk
writes:

<< S. and h. of William Cheyne (d. 1441) by Margaret da. and h. of Sir
Robert de Shurland; m., c.1439, Eleanor da. of Sir Robert Shottesbrooke
of Faringdon, Berks., and he left nine sons, of whom the third, Sir
John Cheyne, K.G., was summoned to Parlt. as Lord Cheyne in 1487. >>


The tudorplace site implies this is, or they are, in error, calling both his
father and grandfather "of Shurland"

Will

Gjest

Re: Tweedie of Drumelzier (was SP Addition: ancestry of Eliz

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 22:05:03

In a message dated 5/22/06 7:32:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< 1.1 James Tweedie
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 8 Feb 1389[2]

" Jacobo de Twedy ", witness [together with Sir William Monypenny,
Sir Nicholas Douglas and others] to will of Sir James Douglas of
Dalkeith, 30 Sept 1390 [Bannatyne Misc. II:105-112[4]] >>

By your own document here, his death date should now read "aft 30 Sep 1390"
Right ?

Will

Louise Staley

Re: Hiwis, Blanchminster, Turet etc

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 22 mai 2006 23:29:23

I have the details of the IPMs mentioned by Michael,

Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:

snip

There are a number of relevant records held in the National Archives,
including:-
IPM of Emma Colshull, wife of John: C138/3/36 (1 HV, Cornwall)

"EMMA WIFE OF JOHN COLSHULL
68. Writ 22 Oct 1413
CORNWALL. Inquisition. Launceston. 20 Nov.
She held the manor and advowson of Manelly and 5 messuages and 100a. in
St. Ewe in her demesne in fee tail of the king in chief as half a
knight's fee by the grant of William Hywyssh her brother to her and the
heirs of her body with remainder to her right heirs, annual values, the
manor £10, messuages and land, £4 5s., the church £20.
She died on 14 Oct. last. John Colshull is her son and heir, aged 22
years and more. The premises have been taken into the king's hands in
virtue of the writ.
C 138/3, no.36
E 149/100, no.6"
[CIPM v.XX, no.68]

IPM of John Colshull, knight: C138.34.41 (6HV, Cornwall, Devon). He it was
(I think)
who was slain at Agincourt
Proof of age of John Colshull, son of John Colshull, knight: C139/89/67 (16
HVI, Cornwall)
COLSHULL, John, chivaler. 6 Henry V. 10 Sep 1418 [In Bad condition]:

Cornwall.
Inquisition taken at Leskyrd, Saturday after the Nativity of the Virgin
6 Hen; V. [Saturday 10 Sept. 1418, before the said esch by the oath of etc.

WHO SAY that John Colshull, chivaler, held the manors of Lvtanely &
Swanecote, the advowson of the church of St. Ewe, * of the borough of
Truru and of a watermill there, of the King in chief as of the crown, by
knight's service, except Truru, which he held of the King in burgage, by
*d. yearly; and 100 acres of wood in Swanecote, held of the King as of
the duchy of Cornwall, of Launceston castle; - the- manor of Manely is
worth by the year, clear, £12; the manors of St. Ewe £2. 13s. 4d.
borough of Truru, l0s.4d; the 100 acres 15s. 24; all held by grant of
William Hywyssh to Emma his sister, wife of John Colshull, deceased, and
her heirs, whose heir is John Colshull named in the writ.

John Colshull, esq., father of the said John Colshull, chivaler, was
seised. of 3 messuages and. a carucate in Treworra, worth, &c. 24., and
granted the same to Richard Glyvyan and Joan his wife, for life, at a
rent of £3: Richard is dead, and Joan married to John Cheynduyt of Bodanan.

John Colshull, chivaler, by charter dated at Treworra, Monday after the
conversion of St. Paull ....., granted the reversion and the said rent
to John Cork, yet living, for life, at a rent of 6s. 8d.. during life of
said Joan, and after her death 10s.

John Colshull, chivaler, was seised of the manor of Swanecote (except
advowsons and woods) and 1 carucate, by gift of his said father, by
charter dated at Tremechert, Monday before St. Katharine .. Henry IV, to
the said John Colshull, chivaler, and Anne his wife, and their heirs,
with rents and services of all tenants of Exe; the manor is worth, &c., £10.

He held no other lands in Cornwall at his death, for that by charter
dated 3 April 6 Hen. V. (1418) at Tremechert, he granted to John Preston
E&c. as above the castle and islands of Sully, and manors of Biename,
Stratton, Seint Marie Wyke, Tremechert, Trenant and Rachwell, with lands
in Leskyrd, Seint Clere, Canelysy and. Clys, with advowsons of Pub
Lansalewe and Seint Marie Wyke, to hold to the said John Preston, &c.,

John, son and heir, aged 2.

IPM of Joan Coleshill, d. of John: she died 14th December 1497, but I have
mislaid my reference to her IPM: she had remarried a Nanfan of Birt's Morton,
Worcs
snip

IPM of Joan Houghton 13 Henry VII
Inquisition taken at Launceston 12 March [1497/8] before Peter
Eggecombe, knt., and Roger Holaund esq., ~feodaries of the duchy of
Cornwall, by the oath of etc; who say that in trinity term 1 Hen.VII
[1486] a fine was levied between Robert Throgmerton and Edward Bartlet,
plaintiffs, and William Houghton kt., and Joan his wife deforciants of
the manors of Byenamye [Binhamy], Stratton, Swancote, St Mary Wke, St.
Cler Colshill, Leskerdcolshill and Wykenurg with lands [details given]
and 20s. rent there and in Tremyeth and the advowson of St. Mary Wyke
which were by that fine settled on the said William and Joan and her
heirs with remainders to Thomas Nevell kinsman and heirs of William
Nevell of Pykell, chr. and. the right heirs of Guy de Blanchminster late
rector of Lansalos.
Joan died. 20 Dec. 13 Hen.VII. [1497]; William is yet living and holds
the lands, the reversion whereof belongs to Edmund Arundel kt, kinsman
of said. Joan, son of Renfrew her son and heir.
The manor of Byenamye is held of the prince of Launceston Castle in the
duchy by knights service, worth by the year, clear, £10.
The manor of Stratton held. in like manner worth &c., £20.
The manor of Swanicotte ditto; worth &c., 40s.
The manor of St. Mary Wyke ditto; worth with the bororough and advowson
by the year clear £10.
The manor of St. Cler Colshill held of Richard Dyrlyng by feailty worth
&c., £6.

Gjest

Re: Hiwis, Blanchmister, Turet, etc.

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mai 2006 23:34:02

In a message dated 5/22/06 2:15:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< Sir Walter Raleigh's paternal g-g-grandfather married a Coplestone, and
they are also found in the tree of Oliver Mainwaring, a colonial Ct
immigrant with several descendants on this list. >>

In addition to these connections, I'm hoping that
Anne Coplestone wife (in 1605) to Edward, 1st Viscount Chicester, and
daughter of John Coplestone of Eggesford and his wife Dorothy Biston; can somehow be
tied into this family also at some point.

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 23 mai 2006 00:29:56

Dear Will,

This may be an instance of the lands passing to a sibling 'of
the whole blood,' hence my post of the other day theorizing that
Isabel and Richard were the issue of Millicent of Rethel, but that the
others (incl. Gerard, as pointed out by Tim) were the issue of the
former wife Alice.

Cheers,

John



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/20/06 4:52:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

It was held in custody by Richard Rufus until
1190, (fn. 13) when Richard I restored it to Richard de Camville's
son Richard, who died on crusade in 1191; it then passed to Robert
de Harcourt of Bosworth (Leics.), who had married the elder Richard
de Camville's daughter Isabel. (fn. 14)

But why would it pass to Isabel (Camville) Harcourt and not to Gerard, Lord
of Camville ? Or to all the siblings in equal shares?
Will

Louise Staley

Re: Hiwis, Blanchminster, Turet etc

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 23 mai 2006 00:36:17

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Millerfairfield@aol.com schrieb:

A few points:-
Blanchminster= Whitchurch in Shropshire, but if anybody is trying to trace
the family, you have to be careful in selecting a search string, especially at
the National Library of Wales website- try "blanc?m*: I have even seen
"Blankmostier" in the PRO catalogue!
Hiwis=Huish, mostly based in Dorset
Toret/Turet, son-in law of Haget, is ancestral not only to the
Blanchminsters de Albo Monasterio but also to the Corbets of Caux and Moreton Corbet in
Shropshire, and to the Lestranges ("Stranerius") of Knockin (and later Norfolk),
Leightons and many other Shropshire families.

I am particularly interested in the Blancminster/Strange relationship
but I have never been able to link the Stratton Blancminsters to the
ancestors of Eleanor Blancminster (d. 1306) who married Robert Strange
(d. 1276) and Sir Bewes Knoville (d. bef. 1307). Could you provide
further information as to the link please?
Good to see you posting, Michael; my Blanchminster descent is via the
Stranges. Having checked the archives, I see that most of my
contributions were superfluous in any case.

There are a number of relevant records held in the National Archives,
including:-
IPM of Emma Colshull, wife of John: C138/3/36 (1 HV, Cornwall)
IPM of John Colshull, knight: C138.34.41 (6HV, Cornwall, Devon). He it was
(I think) who was slain at Agincourt

This is frequently averred, yet Roskell says that, while he was on the
campaign of 1415 in France - and was knighted during its course - it
was not certain that he was at Agincourt, and was not killed there;
rather, HoP cites a death date of 5 July 1418 (sic), based on CFR xiv
238 and C138/34/41 [presumably his IPM].

Having now looked again (and posted the relevant IPM), I have to agree

with you and Roskell that he died later than Agincourt.

Proof of age of John Colshull, son of John Colshull, knight: C139/89/67 (16
HVI, Cornwall) IPM of Joan Coleshill, d. of John: she died 14th
December 1497, but I have mislaid my reference to her IPM: she had
remarried a Nanfan of Birt's Morton, Worcs: the case of Coleshill v.
Nanfan, recorded at C44/27/18 in 27 HVI, concerning the Cornish manor
of Bodannan, might be worth looking at.

There are many relevant family records held in the Cornwall archives - e.g.
Arundell of Lanhearne, references AR/19/2 and 21/3 - which show Joan Coleshill
as the wife of Sir Renfrey Arundel, d.1434, younger son of Sir John Arundel of
Lanhearne, (IPM 13 HVI), ancestor of the Whittingtons of Pauntley, Notgrove,
Upton Solers etc.

As for "Gandewyn", I have him down as a son of Sir Richard Hiwis, by his
marriage to Alice, daughter of Sir Ranulf Blanchminster (MP for Cornwall 1314, d.
1348); Gandewyn is noted as having died in his father's lifetime: perhaps
C138/3/36 will clarify this.

You are quite right - I misread Bowley in assuming that Gandewyn was a
Blanchminster; Bowley merely says he was Ranulph's grandson and heir.

My placement of Gandewyn as the son of Sir Ranulph Blancminster and

Bertha is based on needing to place Sir John Blancminster and his
brother Guy Blancminster as the last Blancminster male heirs in a way
that then makes Alice Blancminster who married Richard Hewis Guy
Blancminster's aunt. However, I have, of course, mislaid the reference
which states Alice was Guy Blancminster, rector of Lansalos's aunt.

"The Story of Stratton Church" by Frederick Bone, 1919 states, without
further evidence, that "Sir Ralph's eldest son, Gandewyn, predeceased
his father" Unfortunately I have not seen the entirety of this work,
only the small part loaded on the internet. If anyone has access to it
and can scan a couple of pages for me could they please contact me
privately.

While, unfortunately, I seldom have the opportunity to conduct research
at Cambridge, I may be able to visit Stratton itself in the not too
distant future, and thus access the reference work that A2A says is
kept there.

If you do get to see it, could I please put in a request for any
information about any property at Stratton, Week st Mary and the Scilly
Isles?

BTW, I was at Hay-on-Wye last week: am I right in presuming that
Whitney nearby is that connected with the Milbornes?

Regards, Michael

cheers

Louise

Gjest

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 00:43:02

In a message dated 5/20/06 10:48:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< Spouse: Millicent of Rethel[1],[4]
Birth: ca 1110[4]
Father: Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
Mother: Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
Marr: aft 1143[4] >>

I'm not ready to believe that Millicent was at least 25 years older than her
husband Richard de Camville. I'm of the opinion that the ca 1110 birth was
only a guess. Now that more evidence has been put out, I would suggest a
younger date say 1120/25

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 23 mai 2006 00:43:58

Dear Will,

Not sure where your date for your date for Richard de Camville ("
ca 1135 ", or 1110 + 25 ?) comes from. The chronology for Millicent of
Rethel, while not set in stone, is tied somewhat to her former marital
history with Robert Marmion, and the careers of their two children.

See the relevant 2-generation pedigree below.

Cheers,

John


1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1095[1]
Death: ca 1144, Coventry (murdered)[2],[1]
Father: Roger Marmion (-ca1130)

seigneur of Fontenay-le-Marmion and lord of Tamworth, co. Warwick[2]

his castle of Fontenay destroyed by the Count of Anjou, 1140[2]

' Robertus Marmiun', gave his manor of 'Buteyate' to the monastery
of St. Oswald of Bardney, together with his wife Melisende and son
Robert ("et Milisent uxor mea, et Robertus filius meus")
[Mon. Angl. I:633, Num. XI[3]]

re: his wife:

shown in CP as Millicent, parentage unknown[2]
received gift of part of Stanton, co. Oxon. from Adeliza of Louvain,
Queen of England, who recognized her as a cousin ["cognata mea"][1]

identification as Millicent of Rethel by Alan B. Wilson[1],[4] :
' Moriarty in TAG xx (Jan, 1944), 255-256, points out that
Alberic, Canon of Huyon-sur-Meuse states that Clarembald de
Rosoy, who m. Elizabeth de Namur after the death of Gervase in
1124, in order to disinherit her, married the only daughter of
Gervase out of the country to a certain noble of Normandy named
Robert Marmion. But Alberic does not give the name of the
daughter or specify which Robert Marmion was her husband. The
daughter of Count Gervase was married about 1132/3, so
chronologically it would more likely be to Robert I than to
Robert II. The mother of Count Gervase of Rethel was Milicent
of Montlhery. Thus Milicent, the wife of Robert I could have
been named for her paternal grandmother.
Queen Adeliza of Louvain, wife of Henry I, gave part of
Stanton, Co. Oxon, to Milicent, wife of Robert Marmion, "cognata
mea." Stanton passed with Isabel, dau. of Milicent and Richard
de Camville to her husband, Robert de Harcourt as her
maritagium, and Stanton Harcourt has subsequently remained in
that family. Queen Adeliza was a second cousin of the daughter
of Gervase, both being descended from Albert III de Namur, d.
1102, & Ida of Saxony.
Moriarty concludes, in view of these arguments, that it was
Robert I who married the daughter of the Count of Rethel, and
that her name was Milicent. This corrects Palmer, "History of
the Baronial Family of Marmion," 1875, Watson (The Genealogist,
n.s., xiv, 70), Clay in "Complete Peerage" (vii, 509), and, of
course, although not then published, ES, iii, 625.'[4]

'Milisent uxor mea', benefactor (together with her husband Robert
Marmion and son Robert) of the monastery of St. Oswald of Bardney
[Mon. Angl. I:633, Num. XI[3]]

she m. 1stly Robert Marmion,
2ndly Richard de Camville[4]

Spouse: Millicent of Rethel[2],[1]
Birth: ca 1110[1]
Father: Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
Mother: Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
Marr: bef 1130[1]

Children: Robert (<1133-<1181)
Mabel (-<1211)


1.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1133[1],[5]
Death: bef Nov 1181[2]

of Tamworth, co. Warwick

' Robertus filius meus', party to the grant by his father Robert
Marmion of the manor of Buteyate to the monastery of St. Oswald
of Bardney, 1144 or shortly before [Mon. Angl. I:633, Num. XI[3]]

exchanged manors of Avon and Ditchampton, co. Wilts. and the
honour of Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen with his uncle Geoffrey
for Winteringham and Scrivelsby, co. Lincoln[2]

had a charter from Ranulf II, earl of Chester of the earl's
lands and appurtenances in Coventry, ca. 1145-50 [Coss, p. 11,
no. 1[5]]

Spouse: Maud de Beauchamp[1]
Father: William de Beauchamp (-1170)
Mother: NN

Children: Robert Marmion, of Tamworth & c.(-<1218)


1.2 Mabel Marmion
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1211[2]

had lands in Sussex as her marriage portion
[CP IX:258 - Mortimer, p. 258n][2]

Spouse: Hugh de Say
Death: ca 1197[2],[6]
Father: Hugh de Say (-<1191)
Mother: Lucy de Clifford

Children: Margaret de Say(-<1243), m. 1stly Hugh de Ferrieres,
2ndly Robert de Mortimer,
3rdly William de Stuteville


1. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury,"
Apr 14, 1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, reposted as "Re:
Marmion Question", Aug 28, 1999, Alan B. Wilson
{abwilson@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
2. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
3. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 -
Austin Abbey of Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356
[Fundationis et Fundatorum Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 -
Priory of Bullington, co. Lincs., pp. 951-954, URL

http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
4. Alan B. Wilson, "Re: Beauchamps of Salwarpe," 18 January 1999,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites prior work and evidences
re: Marmion of Tamworth, Alan B. Wilson
{abwilson@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
5. Peter R. Coss, "The Early Records of Medieval Coventry,"
London: published for The British Academy by Oxford University
Press, The British Academy, Records of Social and Economic
History, New Series vol. XI.
6. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/20/06 10:48:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:

Spouse: Millicent of Rethel[1],[4]
Birth: ca 1110[4]
Father: Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
Mother: Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
Marr: aft 1143[4]

I'm not ready to believe that Millicent was at least 25 years older than her
husband Richard de Camville. I'm of the opinion that the ca 1110 birth was
only a guess. Now that more evidence has been put out, I would suggest a
younger date say 1120/25

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 01:15:02

In a message dated 5/20/06 4:52:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< It was held in custody by Richard Rufus until
1190, (fn. 13) when Richard I restored it to Richard de Camville's
son Richard, who died on crusade in 1191; it then passed to Robert
de Harcourt of Bosworth (Leics.), who had married the elder Richard
de Camville's daughter Isabel. (fn. 14) >>

But why would it pass to Isabel (Camville) Harcourt and not to Gerard, Lord
of Camville ? Or to all the siblings in equal shares?
Will

Gjest

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 01:18:02

In a message dated 5/20/06 4:57:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Based on the passage of Stanton Harcourt, bypassing Gerard
or other Camville brothers after the death of Richard 'II' in
1191, it presently seems most reasonable to attribute the issue
of Richard 'I' de Camville as follows: >>

Isabel names her daughter "Alice de Harcourt" after her father's dead first
wife?
Will

Gjest

Re: Tweedie of Drumelzier (was SP Addition: ancestry of Eliz

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 01:27:02

Dear Will,

You are correct. Thanks for the 'update'.....;)

Cheers,

John

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 23 mai 2006 01:49:15

John P. Ravilious wrote:

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/20/06 4:52:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

It was held in custody by Richard Rufus until
1190, (fn. 13) when Richard I restored it to Richard de Camville's
son Richard, who died on crusade in 1191; it then passed to Robert
de Harcourt of Bosworth (Leics.), who had married the elder Richard
de Camville's daughter Isabel. (fn. 14)

But why would it pass to Isabel (Camville) Harcourt and not to Gerard, Lord
of Camville ? Or to all the siblings in equal shares?

This may be an instance of the lands passing to a sibling 'of
the whole blood,' hence my post of the other day theorizing that
Isabel and Richard were the issue of Millicent of Rethel, but that the
others (incl. Gerard, as pointed out by Tim) were the issue of the
former wife Alice.

As much as we think of everything in terms of inheritance, there were
other ways in which land could be passed. Just look at the Hiwis
Blanchminster thread, where the IPMs explicitly state that the land in
question was granted to the sister by her brother William de Hiwis (she
eventually was his heiress, but she clearly held the land by grant,
rather than by inheritance). In this case, the land could have been
transfered to Isabel by fine at the time of her marriage, for example,
and likewise Richard could have received it from Gerard by a fine, so
Richard's holding of the property need not imply he was half-brother of
Gerard (if all of the mother's property went to him, then that is more
suggestive). Certainly inheritance was the most common form of land
transfer, but not the only form.

taf

Gjest

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 01:56:01

I think if anything, we need to make Isabel de Camville, a daughter of Alice,
since she names her daughter Alice.

Maud could still be her whole-blood sister, maybe if Maud had only the one
daughter, who becomes a nun abt 1190, prior to her uncle's death. Maybe Maud
herself dies, leaving only Richard and Isabel, then Richard dies, and Isabel
then inherits a whole portion.

Will

Gjest

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 02:03:02

Dear Will,

I think placing Isabel with Alice as her mother cannot
be justified, at least as of yet:

1. The passage of Stanton speaks against this.

2. If the onomastics involved a name like Millicent
or another somewhat unusual name, this might be
defensible. However, Alice (also Adeliza, Adelicia,
etc.) was common enough at this point, it is not
much more helpful than William de Harcourt's name
in this regard.

We know Robert de Harcourt's father's name was Ivo (or
Yves as you might prefer, French vs. Latin) - but, we do
not know his mother's name, or his maternal grandmother's
name. If there's an Alice in that mix, that might explain
Alice de Harcourt's name.

Cheers,

John

Gjest

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 02:07:02

In a message dated 5/22/06 4:51:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< de Rosoy, who m. Elizabeth de Namur after the death of Gervase in 1124,
in order to disinherit her, married the only daughter of Gervase out of the
country to a certain noble of Normandy named Robert Marmion. But Alberic does
not give the name of the daughter or specify which Robert Marmion was her
husband. The daughter of Count Gervase was married about 1132/3, so chronologically
it would more likely be to Robert I than to Robert II. The mother of Count
Gervase of Rethel was Milicent of Montlhery.
<snip>

Spouse: Millicent of Rethel[2],[1]
Birth: ca 1110[1]
Father: Gervase of Rethel (-1124)
Mother: Elizabeth of Namur (->1141)
Marr: bef 1130[1]

Children: Robert (<1133-<1181)
Mabel (-<1211)

1.1 Robert Marmion
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1133[1],[5]
Death: bef Nov 1181[2]

of Tamworth, co. Warwick

' Robertus filius meus', party to the grant by his father Robert
Marmion of the manor of Buteyate to the monastery of St. Oswald
of Bardney, 1144 or shortly before [Mon. Angl. I:633, Num. XI[3]] >>

I find this chronology tight. To say that
1) She was married abt 1132/3 and then
2) her son Robert was born "bef 1133"

So essentially saying he was born IN 1132. And thus 12 years old when he is
a party to the grant by his father.

It seems like the dates are being deliberately stretched to allow all these
things to be true.
But maybe Robert was not the son of Millicent.

Certainly it looks doubtful that Robert de Marmion only had one wife.
Will

Gjest

Re: Whitney and Milbornes???

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 03:01:02

Michael Andrews-Reading writes:
<I was at Hay-on-Wye last week: am I right in presuming that
<Whitney nearby is that connected with the Milbornes?

erm- is there any connection of the Milbornes with Whitney?
MM

John Higgins

Re: Hiwis, Blanchmister, Turet, etc.

Legg inn av John Higgins » 23 mai 2006 03:17:02

The family of Copleston[e] of Eggford [or Eggesford] is covered in Vivian's
edition of the visitations of Devon (following 9 pages on the Coplestones of
Coplestone, which is the family whose earlier ancestry is discussed in this
thread). The Eggesford family ends with the Anne you mentioned who mar. the
1st Viscount Chichester and begins (in the Coplestone line) 5 generations
earlier with John (d. 31 July 1497) who mar. Johanna, dau. of John Sachville
[sic]. But no connection is indicated between this family and those of
Coplestone in all its branches. Most of the Eggesford pedigree is
apparently based on a Harleian MS of the 1564 visitation of Devon.

So...no connection apparently known....at least to Vivian.

FWIW, the Elizabeth Coplestone who is listed in pedigrees as the wife of the
g-g-grandfather of Sir Walter Raleigh does not appear in the Coplestone
pedigrees in Vivian, and her father is not named in the Raleigh pedigrees.
Is any more information known about her? (Admittedly Vivian is not the best
source for all of this....)

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: Hiwis, Blanchmister, Turet, etc.


In a message dated 5/22/06 2:15:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

Sir Walter Raleigh's paternal g-g-grandfather married a Coplestone, and
they are also found in the tree of Oliver Mainwaring, a colonial Ct
immigrant with several descendants on this list.

In addition to these connections, I'm hoping that
Anne Coplestone wife (in 1605) to Edward, 1st Viscount Chicester, and
daughter of John Coplestone of Eggesford and his wife Dorothy Biston; can
somehow be
tied into this family also at some point.

Will Johnson


Gjest

Re: Whitney and Milbornes???

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 03:26:02

Dear MM,
Sir James Whitney, Knt. married Blanche, daughter of Simon and
Jane Milborne nee Baskerville (see MCA p 571)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 03:33:02

In a message dated 5/19/06 7:04:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gregv.ma@rcn.com
writes:

<< 3. The Pedigree of Noel of Old Dalby (about 4 miles from where I live)
shown Elizabeth Noel (who married Anthony Faunt) as the daughter of
Andrew Noel of Old Dalby and his second wife Elizabeth, the widow of Sir
John Peryent, Knight, but by birth the daughter and heir of William
Hopton of Shropshire. >>

I have a note that says that the DNB article for "Noel, Andrew" and/or
stirnet.com shows this father of Elizabeth Hopton to be "John Hopton of Hopton,
Staffordshire"

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 03:41:02

In a message dated 5/19/06 7:04:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gregv.ma@rcn.com
writes:

<< 3. The Pedigree of Noel of Old Dalby (about 4 miles from where I live)
shown Elizabeth Noel (who married Anthony Faunt) as the daughter of Andrew Noel
of Old Dalby and his second wife Elizabeth, the widow of Sir John Peryent,
Knight, but by birth the daughter and heir of William Hopton of Shropshire.
<snipped>
The altar-tomb in St. John the Baptist Church at Old Dalby reads: "Heir
lieth Andrewe Noell, esquyer, disceased ye xxiii day of Januarie, ano dni 1562;
and Dorythe his wyfe, desceassed ano dni 1548; and dame Elezabethe Peryent,
now lyving, and late wyfe to ye said Andrewe Noell: whose soulles God pardon."

The Pedigree states that Elizabeth was the widow of Sir John Peryent, Knt.
However the altar-tomb says that she is *now* called Elizabeth "Peryent".

Did she marry another Peryent? Or is the Pedigree incorrect?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Renfrey Arundell of Lanhearne and Philip Coplestone

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 03:51:01

Will Johnson writes:
<What is the proof text for this death date of 1434 [for Renfrey]?

My note of his IPM is C140/29/38 (8 Edw IV, so many years later), but I have
yet to read it.
There is another promising entry next to it in the PRO catalogue
(C140/29/38a),
referring to "Coplestone, Philip and Arundell, Renfrid: inquisition of wards
etc Corn", and another Coplestone/Arundell reference at C140/47/66 (13 Edw IV).
MM

Gjest

Re: Taylor [was Re: Thomas Williamson, Bnt in 1642]

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 05:16:03

In a message dated 5/20/06 10:05:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< At 52:950-1 Thomas Taylor of Doddington (d. 1652/3) and his sister Jane the
wife of George Anton (and mother of Elizabeth [Anton] Hussey) are shown as
the children of an elder Thomas Taylor, recorder of the Bishop of Lincoln,
who bought Doddington in 1593 and d. 24 Nov 1607. All the children of the
elder Thomas (these two and others) are by his 2nd wife Jane, dau. of Martin
Hollingworth, draper and Mayor of Lincoln in 1560.

No ancestry is given by Maddison for either the elder Thomas Taylor or
Martin Hollingworth, but there is an extensive pedigree for the family of
Martin's wife Anne [or Amy] Sapcotts. >>

Thank you John for looking this up
Does Anne/Amy Sapcote by any chance connect up to
Sir Guy Sapcote of Huntingdon and his wife Margaret Wolston
or this Guy's parents
Sir William Sapcote and his wife Anne Semark (d 1510)

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Another broken link Thomas Cockayne 1618 ---> Edward I v

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 05:17:01

In a message dated 5/19/06 10:08:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< Way back in 1981 or 1982, in his review of Paget's work (in "The
Genealogist"), Gary Boyd Roberts noted that the parentage Paget specified
for Margaret Tyrwhit was chronologically impossible and not supported by
Tyrwhit pedigrees. He could not find an alternative parentage for Margaret,
and I don't know that anyone else has done so since.... >>

Maybe this document can help? Anyone able to identify these people and why
they are all together here?

Lincolnshire Archives: Thorold [THOR 2 - THOR 13]
THOROLD
Catalogue Ref. Thor
Creator(s): Thorold family of Syston Park, Lincolnshire
FAMILY SETTLEMENTS
Settlements - ref. THOR 2/1
FILE - Indenture, covenant to levy a fine and declaration of its uses. - ref.
THOR 2/1/1 - date: 28th August, 1593
[from Scope and Content] Anthony Thorold of Marston, kt. to Philip Tyrwhitt
of Stainfield, Edmund Thorold of Hough, Richard Pell of Dembleby, and William
Ellys of the Close of Lincoln, esquires.

Gjest

Re: Whitney and Milbornes

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 05:18:02

James W Cummings kindly reminded me of the marriage of Blanche Milborne to
Sir James Whitney. Thank you sir- it's not easy to keep all Simon's daughters
and their marriages at the front of one's aging mind!
MM

John Higgins

Re: Taylor [was Re: Thomas Williamson, Bnt in 1642]

Legg inn av John Higgins » 23 mai 2006 07:22:02

The Lincolnshire Pedigrees do indicate a linkage between the Sapcotts family
of Lincolnshire and the Sapcote [or Sapcotts] family of Huntingdonshire, but
not specifically to the William who mar. Anne Semark or their son Guy.
Maddison shows the (unnamed) Sapcotts grandfather of Anne [or Amy]
Sampcotts, wife of Martin Hollingworth, as a brother of John Sapcotts of
Elton, Hunts. The problem is that Maddison and the Hunts visitation
disagree rather significantly on the generations following John in the Hunts
line. I suspect that Maddison is more accurate based on limited
chronological information, but I can't confirm it.

More important, the position of William as shown in the Huntingdon
visitation (he and his brother Thomas are not shown by Maddison) has been
discussed here in the past two years and has been shown to be
chronologically impossible. Unless someone has found something new, I think
the parentage of William and Thomas must still be considered unknown - and
definitely incorrect as shown in the Hunts visitation.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: Taylor [was Re: Thomas Williamson, Bnt in 1642]


In a message dated 5/20/06 10:05:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

At 52:950-1 Thomas Taylor of Doddington (d. 1652/3) and his sister Jane
the
wife of George Anton (and mother of Elizabeth [Anton] Hussey) are shown
as
the children of an elder Thomas Taylor, recorder of the Bishop of
Lincoln,
who bought Doddington in 1593 and d. 24 Nov 1607. All the children of
the
elder Thomas (these two and others) are by his 2nd wife Jane, dau. of
Martin
Hollingworth, draper and Mayor of Lincoln in 1560.

No ancestry is given by Maddison for either the elder Thomas Taylor or
Martin Hollingworth, but there is an extensive pedigree for the family of
Martin's wife Anne [or Amy] Sapcotts.

Thank you John for looking this up
Does Anne/Amy Sapcote by any chance connect up to
Sir Guy Sapcote of Huntingdon and his wife Margaret Wolston
or this Guy's parents
Sir William Sapcote and his wife Anne Semark (d 1510)

Thanks
Will Johnson


John Higgins

Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC

Legg inn av John Higgins » 23 mai 2006 07:59:02

The "History of Parliament 1509-1558", in the article for Andrew Nowell
[sic] says that his 2nd wife was Elizabeth, widow of Sir John Peryent (who
d. 1551 - must be VERY early in 1551 since Elizabeth's 2nd marriage
settlement is dated by HOP as April 1551), the dau. of John Hopton [not
William] of Gloucester. Both the visitations of Leicester (HSP 2) and of
Shropshire (HSP 28) confirm Elizabeth's two marriages and her father John,
although the Shropshire visitation says John was of that county while the
Leics visitation says he was of either Shropshire or Gloucester.

With respect to your other note, I suspect that the altar tomb in the church
in Old Dalby is simply in error with respect to the maiden name of
Elizabeth. Or perhaps the Peryent name was just considered more notable
than the Hopton name. I can find no indication that Elizabeth married a
third time, to a Peryent or anyone else.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MCA


In a message dated 5/19/06 7:04:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
gregv.ma@rcn.com
writes:

3. The Pedigree of Noel of Old Dalby (about 4 miles from where I live)
shown Elizabeth Noel (who married Anthony Faunt) as the daughter of
Andrew Noel of Old Dalby and his second wife Elizabeth, the widow of Sir
John Peryent, Knight, but by birth the daughter and heir of William
Hopton of Shropshire.

I have a note that says that the DNB article for "Noel, Andrew" and/or
stirnet.com shows this father of Elizabeth Hopton to be "John Hopton of
Hopton,
Staffordshire"

Will Johnson


Gjest

Re: Hiwis, Blanchminster, Turet etc

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mai 2006 10:23:24

Louise Staley wrote:
I am particularly interested in the Blancminster/Strange relationship
but I have never been able to link the Stratton Blancminsters to the
ancestors of Eleanor Blancminster (d. 1306) who married Robert Strange
(d. 1276) and Sir Bewes Knoville (d. bef. 1307). Could you provide
further information as to the link please?

If you do get to [Stratton to] see it, could I please put in a request for any
information about any property at Stratton, Week st Mary and the Scilly
Isles?

Irritatingly, I was at St Mary's on Scilly for a few days last month,
and visited the former site of Ennor Castle, but unfortunately, I did
not visit the local museum where much relevant historical material is
kept - a missed opportunity.

I shall add Stratton to my list of places to pop into, and see what I
can come up with.

Regards, Michael

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»