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Gjest

Re: Huddleston and Greene

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 06:58:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 9:49:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Sometimes Machel or Mauchel. But Crackenthorpe wasn't used as a surname
on
anything I've seen, except for an 11th century ancestor, whose name was
Williemus Malus Catulus de Crackenthorpe. >>

Well just go to the A2A, its free to search, and enter Crackenthorpe.
Maybe you'll recognize the people. Maybe not. I just found it amusing to
see so many records for such an odd name.

Gjest

Re: Huddleston and Greene

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 07:00:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 9:49:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< The Machell family papers dating back to 1100 are with the
Dean & Chapter of Carlisle. >>

It's unfortunate that they don't seem to mention this stuff on A2A, I was
hoping to be able to fill in some blanks. There are papers of the Lowther and
they do mention Machell here and there, but nothing early that I could find.
Will

Gjest

Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 07:03:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 9:56:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< I show Elizabeth Noel, the wife of Anthony Faunt, as the dau. of Andrew N.
and his 2nd wife Elizabeth Hopton, based on Nichols' Leics. She is,
however, not mentioned in the 1619 Leics visitation. >>

Thanks John for looking. As a further source, there is a Memorial to Henry
Faunt in the church of Foston (or was) on which he states that his mother was
Elizabeth Noel daughter of Andrew Noel of Dalby, and that his father was
Anthony Faunt.

This Elizabeth per this website which seems relatively well researched
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/weston/section%20one.html
died 11 Apr 1620
while Anthony Faunt died 11 May 1588

Here is the inscription quoted from archives

From: "Bill Tolch" bill@wtproducts.com
Subject: Re: Anthony Faunt & Elizabeth Noel
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:55:47 -0700
I found the following inscription.
<http://www.elektromail.freeserve.co.uk/stbart/fawnt_tomb.htm> The inscription reads: "1665 Here lieth ye body of Henry
Fawnt Esq're 2 sonne of Anthony Fawnt of Foston & Elizabeth his wife, Daughter
of Sir Andrew Noel of Dawlby in Com Leic. K'nt who died ye 3 of May 1665. in
ye 84 yeare of his age. He married 1 Margaret Daughter of William Underne,
Gent, who died without issue. 2 Barbara, Daughter of Thomas Love, Gent, who died
in the 65 yeare of her age 1645 by whom he had 5 sonnes & 6 Daughters Henry,
William, Anthony, & Jane died all young. Ye rest were Married as followes,
Walter to Mabell Daughter of Francis Morgan of Kingsthorpe in Com Nor Esq're
George to Dorothy Daughter of Edward Hansbury of Kelmarsh in Com Nor Esq're
Elizabeth to George 2 sonne of Sir Richard Halford, of Wistow Bar'net Mabell to Henry
3 sonne of Sir William Sutton of Aramm Com Nott, K'nt Margaret to Edward
Woodcocke of Keyham Gent, Mary at whose charge this Monument was erected to Edward
Wigley of Scraptoft, Gent, who had issue by her, Henry & Mary both deceased &
Barbara to Richard Bradgate of Peatling Parva, Esq're by whom she had issue 1
sonne & 1 Daughter Henry & Mary, Mary erected this Monument - Jane died an
infant, Barbara Married Richard Bradgate of Peatling Parva in ye Com Leic.
Esq're"



Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Fraser of Durris

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 07:09:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 10:05:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
talksinsentences@gmail.com writes:

<< Kittybrewster.com
doesn't list a source for Christian's parentage or marriage. >>

You might write the webmaster and ask them about it.
Maybe they will share their sources with you.
Will

Gjest

Re: Huddleston and Greene

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 07:29:42

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/17/06 3:06:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

This Henry is a son of Sir John Huddleston of Millom, who died in 1494,
and a brother of Sir John Huddleston of Gloucestershire (d 1512); his
aunt, Agnes, married William Greene, according to the Visitation of
Hertfordshire, and had a son Thomas; perhaps Robert Greene of London
was another son and thus Henry's cousin.

His aunt Agnes Huddleston ?
Or his aunt Agnes Stapleton ?

Agnes, daughter of Sir Richard Hudleston.

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 18 mai 2006 09:19:49

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/17/06 5:36:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

I'm talking about newsgroups.

Why? If there is a message board at rootsweb/ancestry (which are all free)
that covers your area of Britian, why not use it instead of beating your head
against the idea that there's no newsgroup that covers it?
Will


Britain is larger than it seems and people moved around much more than
we think they did.

In Yorkshire, for example, in my one-name study, I've found several
instances where husbands married and settled in the wife's parish before
either going back to his own parish, or to quite another parish. And
this is before the Industrial Revolution, when vast numbers left the
rural parishes for the developing cities in search of work.

Which message board do you think the descendants of families such as
this should use?

As it happens, people related to my one-name-study use me. I have
hundreds of correspondents who find me through my one-name study and I'm
able to help them with their ancestry because of my huge database.

But what of the rest? Which message board should they use, do you think?

As to myself, my English ancestry is before their emigration to Ireland
in 1660. They are well documented in Burke's (barring inaccuracies). My
father's side is Polish and Eastern European.

Which message board do you suggest I use other than those for Poland and
Ireland?

On the other hand, my great-great grandfather popped up in London in
1818. I have no idea where his father came from, but it was probably the
west country. etc etc

Oh, yes, we can all plant our various names on various (place and
surname) message boards. You have to remember which board you've been to
or that you've been to boards at all. Sometimes, you only remember when
someone responds to you.

A newsgroup is much more convenient. There are ongoing discussions about
all sorts of related matters, such as 17th century Virginian Law or when
Parish Registers began in England, which don't get aired in newsgroups
and which could have a bearing on research. Or someone posting on his
research in a newsgroup you are subscribed to may inadvertently mention
a name which may have relevance to your own research.

The history of Europe is the history of migration other than that to
America. The displaced Huguenots of France went to England and Ireland
in the late 17th century. In the late 18th century, many Irish went to
England to help build the newly-developing canals, and half a century
later, more hungry Irish left their country for England as well as
America. Eastern European Jews left their various homelands for England
in the late 19th century. There was a developing population of black
Africans in England from the 17th century onwards. The list goes on and
on including the constant stream of Europeans emigrating to America,
Canada, Australia, South Africa and elsewhere right up to the present
day. And that is without touching Far-Eastern migration.

It is typical of American insularity that they think only they have
distance problems in locating their ancestors. We all do, but few of us
expect to hook our ancestors on to the gentry and aristocracy, for the
sole purpose of finding as many royal ancestors as possible. Which is
what this newsgroup seems to be about.

Gjest

Re: Huddleston and Greene

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 11:27:52

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/17/06 9:49:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

Sometimes Machel or Mauchel. But Crackenthorpe wasn't used as a surname
on
anything I've seen, except for an 11th century ancestor, whose name was
Williemus Malus Catulus de Crackenthorpe.

Well just go to the A2A, its free to search, and enter Crackenthorpe.
Maybe you'll recognize the people. Maybe not. I just found it amusing to
see so many records for such an odd name.
There was definitely a family called Crackenthorpe; they were of

Newbiggin, although which of the several places of that name in the
area I don't know. No idea whether or not they were the same stock as
the Machells- but they would doubtless be connected anyway through the
local gentry gene pool.
-Matthew

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 12:32:01

Dear Will,

One could certainly do that.

Cheers,

John

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 12:33:02

Dear Will,

The Erskine relationship is shown below, with certain
details missing (re: which, see my post to SGM, <SP Correction:
Sir James de Lindsay and Egidia Stewart> dated 11 June 2003).

Alexander Stewart = Joanna ____
__________________________I_______________
I I
James (the) Stewart NN Stewart
I I
I I
Walter = Marjory Sir Alexander = NN
Stewart I Bruce de Lindsay I
I I
I I
Robert II Sir Robert = Beatrix
K of Scots de Erskine I de Lindsay
I I
I I
ROBERT III SIR THOMAS de ERSKINE


By the same relationship Sir James de Lindsay and his wife
Egidia Stewart were 2nd cousins 1x removed, Robert III and Sir
Thomas de Erskine were 3rd cousins.

The one relationship I can divine at present between Sir
Patrick de Graham and Robert III is based on my theory that
Helen of Strathearn, Patrick's mother, was dau. of Earl Malise
by his 2nd wife, Joanna de Menteith (see SGM threads, <SP
Addition: Helen of Strathearn, wife of Sir David Graham> dated
11 Nov 2005, and <Helen of Strathearn, daughter of Joanna de
Menteith (revisited)> dated 2 Jan 2006).


Walter Stewart = B___ [Beatrice, or Bethoc ?]
_______________________I____________
I I
Alexander = Joanna ____ Walter = Mary of
Stewart I E of Menteith I Menteith
___I I
I I
James (the) Stewart Sir John de Menteith
I of Ruskie
I I_______
I I
Walter = Marjory Malise = 2) Joanna
Stewart I Bruce E of Strathearn I de Menteith
I I
I I
Robert II 2) Sir David = Helen of
K of Scots de Graham I Strathearn
I I
I I
ROBERT III SIR PATRICK de GRAHAM


By the foregoing, they would have been 4th cousins.

Cheers,

John

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 12:48:02

Dear Will,

I have copied the descent you posted below, with changes as
needed. The problem I see, you have grafted the senior
Montrose line onto that of the Graham Earls of Strathearn.
Sir William de Graham was elder half-brother to Earl Patrick,
not his son.


Patrick, Lord Graham born 1398/1403
his father
Alexander Graham "Lord [of] Kincardine" born 1381/6
his father
William, 1st Lord Graham born 1364/9
his father
** Patrick Graham, [NOT *Earl Strathearn*] born 1347/50
his parents
** Patrick Graham, [NOT *Lord Graham* by modern definition] born 1320/33 and
Helen of Strathearn [NOT *Egidia Stewart*]


See pedigree below.

Cheers,

John


1 Sir David de Graham
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 4 Apr 1373[1]
Father: Sir David de Graham (-~1330)
Mother: NN

of Kincardine-in-Menteith and Montrose

fought at Neville's Cross 1346[1]

" 1353.
7 Id. Oct. To David de Grame, knight, and Helen, relict
Avignon. of Reginald Chene, knight, of the dioceses of
(f. 448.) Brechin and St. Andrews.
Dispensation, at the request of John, king
of France, to intermarry, they being related
in the fourth degree of kindred. [Theiner, 305.] "
[ Papal Letters III:514[2]]

Spouse: Helen of Strathearn
Father: Malise of Strathearn (-1328)
Mother: [PROBABLE] Joanna de Menteith (->1367)
Marr: bef 9 Oct 1353[2],[3]

Children: Sir Patrick (->1400)
David


1.1a Sir Patrick Graham*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 6 May 1400[1]

of Kincardine-in-Menteith and Montrose

charter of impignoration by Angus Hawincross of that Ilk of part of the lands
of Boclair in favour of Sir Patrick of Graham, knight, son and heir to David
de Graham, Lord of Dundaff, and Matilda, wife of the said Patrick, dated at
the manor-place of Mugdock on 24 August 1372 [SP VI:214[1], cites Lennox Book,
i. 162]

~ following which, he had a charter from Robert Stewart, Earl of Fife and
Menteith, of the lands of Achincross in the Lennox dated 1377 [SP VI:213[1],
cites RMS fol. vol 146, no. 96]

' 165. Charter by John of Boswell of Balmuto, confirming to his kinsman,
John of Wemsy, for his good counsel, as hislands of Myrcarny,....
Witnesses, Sir Robert Stewart, Earl of Fife and Menteth, Sir Patrick
Graham, and Robert of Danyelston, knights, John of Levingston, Lord of Calendar,
Thomas Sybaulde, and others. Ante 13th June 1386. ' [ Fraser, Wemyss II:266,
no. 165[4]]

' Sir Thomas of Erskine, Sir Patrick of Graham,and Sir Robert of Danielston,
the King's cousins and knights,..' witnesses together with others of
'A Charter under the Great Seal granted by Robert III, King of Scotland to
his
cousin David Fleming of £50 sterling of annual rent due to him by religious
men,...dated at Scone, 14th March 1391.' [Charter Chest of the
Earls of Wigtown, p. 101, no. 847[5] - 'cf. Reg. Mag. Sig. folio vol. p.
200']

'Sir Patrick of Graham', witness to a charter by Thomas of Lask and
John of Fothes to David Fleming, of all and haill the lands of
Auchloun, dated Aberdeen, 20 August 1392 [Charter Chest of the
Earls of Wigtown, p. 101, no. 847[5] ]

' Patrick of Graham, lord of Kyncardyn', witness (together with by Sir Robert
de Danielston of that Ilk, Sir John Maxwell of Pollock, his brother Robert
Boyd of Kilmarnock and Sir Malcolm Fleming's sons David Fleming and Patrick
Fleming) to a charter from Malcolm Fleming of Biggar to 'his dear nephew William
Boyd, lord of Galvane '["carissimo nepoti nostro, Wilelmo de Boyde, Domino de
Galvane"] of the lands of 'Badynhache', confirmed by King Robert III at
Rothesay, 7 Jul 1395 [Fraser, Memorials II:18-19, No. 24[6] See also Eglinton MSS.
p. 8, No. 11[7] - calls William of Boyde "grandson" in error]

he m. 1stly Matilda,
2ndly Egidia Stewart

Spouse: Matilda [1st wife]
Marr: bef 24 Aug 1372[1]

Children: Sir William (-1424)
Matilda

Other Spouses Egidia Stewart [2nd wife, mother of Patrick,
Earl of Strathearn by his wife
Euphemia Stewart]


1.1a.1a Sir William Graham*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1424[1]

of Kincardine-in-Menteith and Montrose

fought at Battle of Homildon 1402[1]

'William the Graham', witness to an indenture between Alexander Stewart,earl
of Mar and David Fleming, dated 24 Aug 1405 [Charter Chest/Wigtown, p. 5, no.
20[5] ]

' William Graham of Kincardine', on embassy [together with David Lindsay,
Earl of Crawford and others] to England to enquire as to the captivity of Prince
James, Dec 1406 [Red Book of Menteith I:193[8], cites Foedera viii, 461]


cf. SP VI:215-7[1]
J. Ravilious, <Graham of Montrose: a Keith/Barclay
Connection>, SGM, 5 Dec 2005[9]

Spouse: [CONJECTURED] NN Barclay
Father: [CONJECTURED] Alexander de Barclay of Mathers
Mother: [CONJECTURED] Katherine de Keith

Children: Alexander (-<1422)
John
Elizabeth

Other Spouses Princess Mary Stewart [2nd wife]


1.1a.1a.1 Alexander Graham
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 8 Jan 1422, d.v.p.[1]

esq., of Kincardine-in-Menteith

heir apparent (d.v.p.)

' Alexander Grahame [esquire]', witness [together with James Douglas of
Dalkeith, James his son and others] to a grant by Robert III, king of Scots to
Melrose abbey, dated at Dalkeith 27 March 1404 [papal confirmation at Marseilles,
23 Aug 1404 - CPL 1394-1419, p. 122[10]]

' Alexander de Graym, filius et haeres Domini de Graym', had safe conducts on
31 Jul 1408, and again on 18 May 1412 to go to England as an hostage for
Murdoch of Fife (later the 2nd Duke of Albany) [SP VI:219[1]]

' Alexandro de Grame filio domini de Grame ', witness [together with John
Stewart, earl of Buchan, and others] to a charter of Robert Stewart, Duke of
Albany to William de Hay of Erol, dated at Falkland, 14 May 1415 [Red Book of
Menteith II:285-6[8]]

had seisin of the lands of the lordship of Kincardine in his father's
lifetime:
' Alexander de Grahame, pater quondam Patricii de Grahame', died vested and
seised as of fee in the lordship of Kincardine ("obiit vestitus et saisitus vt
de feodo de dominio de Kincardin") [ precept of sasine by Walter Stewart, Earl
of Athol and Caithness, as tutor of Malise, Earl of Strathearn, for infefting
Patrick Graham, dated at Methven, 10 Nov 1424 [Red Book of Menteith II:292-3,
No. 56[8]]

cf. SP VI:219-220[1]

Spouse: NN

Children: Patrick (<1403->1466)
Alexander
Katherine


1.1a.1a.1.1 Patrick Graham
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 10 Nov 1403[8]
Death: aft 24 Jun 1466[1]
Occ: Lord Graham, 1445-1466[1]

of Kincardine, Strathearn

' Patricii de Grahame', being of full age, and the nearest legitimate heir of
Alexander Graham, had seisin of the lands of the lordship of Kincardine under
precept of sasine by Walter Stewart, Earl of Athol and Caithness, as tutor of
Malise, Earl of Strathearn, dated at Methven, 10 Nov 1424 [Red Book of
Menteith II:292-3, No. 56[8]]

created Lord Graham, 28 June 1445[1]

'our dear cousin...Patrick, Lord Graham ' ["dilectis consanguineis nostris,
Patricio Domino le Grahame"], witness (together with James Kennedy, Bishop of
St. Andrews, William Crichton, Andrew, Lord Gray, John Stewart, Lord Darnley,
Gilbert Kennedy of Dunure and others) to a charter of King James II to
Alexander Montgomery of the lands of Roberston, dated at Perth, 16 Sept 1453 [Fraser,
Memorials II:33-34, No. 42[6]]

cf. SP VI:220-221[1]

Spouse: Christian Erskine
Death: aft 19 Dec 1480[1]
Father: Robert Erskine (-<1452)
Mother: Elizabeth Lindsay

Children: Elizabeth
William (-1472)
David
James
Robert
Janet


1.1a.1b Sir William Graham* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Princess Mary Stewart
Death: aft 1431
Father: Robert III of Scotland (1337-1406)
Mother: Annabela Drummond (-1403)

Children: Sir Robert
Patrick
William
Henry
Walter

Other Spouses NN Barclay, None


1.1b Sir Patrick Graham* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Egidia Stewart [2nd wife]
Father: Sir John Stewart (->1369)
Mother: NN

Children: Sir Patrick (-1412), E of Strathearn
(de jure uxoris)
Sir Robert Graham (-1437), the Assassin of James I
David
Alexander




1. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh: David
Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
2. W. H. Bliss, B.C.L. and C. Johnson, M.A., "Calendar of Entries in the
Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland," Papal Letters, Vol. III
(A.D. 1342-1362), London: for the Public Record Office, 1897, (reprinted 1971,
Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein).
3. John P. Ravilious, "SP Addition: Helen of Strathearn, wife of Sir David
Graham," 9 November 2005, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites papal dispensation,
12 Oct 1344 in Bliss, Vol. III (A.D. 1342 - 1362) p. 514.
4. William Fraser, "Memorials of the family of Wemyss of Wemyss," Edinburgh,
1888, 2 vols.
5. "Charter Chest of the Earldom of Wigtown, 1214-1681," Anonymous,
Edinburgh: Printed for the Society by J. Skinner & Co., 1910, .pdf image files provided
by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
6. William Fraser, "Memorials of the Montgomeries, Earls of Eglinton,"
Edinburgh: published for the author, 1859.
7. Historical Manuscripts Commission, Tenth Report of the Royal Commission on
Historical Manuscripts, "Report on the Manuscripts of The Earl of Eglinton,
Sir J. Stirling Maxwell, Bart., C. S. H. Drummond Moray, Esq.," "C. F. Weston
Underwood, Esq. and G. Wingfield Digby, Esq.," London: Eyre and Spottiswoode,
1885.
8. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880, .pdf image
files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com, history and evidences
concerning the Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
9. John P. Ravilious, "Graham of Montrose: a Keith/Barclay Connection," 5
December 2005, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites McGurk, Calendar of Papal
Letters to Scotland of Benedict XIII of Avignon, 1394-1419, pp. 270-1, and other
sources.
10. Francis McGurk, ed., "Calendar of Papal Letters to Scotland of Benedict
XIII of Avignon, 1394-1419," Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., 1976, Pub.
of the Scottish History Society.

John Brandon

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 12:48:18

Awww, Reny girl, you have it so rough, so tough ...

Renia wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/17/06 5:36:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

I'm talking about newsgroups.

Why? If there is a message board at rootsweb/ancestry (which are all free)
that covers your area of Britian, why not use it instead of beating your head
against the idea that there's no newsgroup that covers it?
Will


Britain is larger than it seems and people moved around much more than
we think they did.

In Yorkshire, for example, in my one-name study, I've found several
instances where husbands married and settled in the wife's parish before
either going back to his own parish, or to quite another parish. And
this is before the Industrial Revolution, when vast numbers left the
rural parishes for the developing cities in search of work.

Which message board do you think the descendants of families such as
this should use?

As it happens, people related to my one-name-study use me. I have
hundreds of correspondents who find me through my one-name study and I'm
able to help them with their ancestry because of my huge database.

But what of the rest? Which message board should they use, do you think?

As to myself, my English ancestry is before their emigration to Ireland
in 1660. They are well documented in Burke's (barring inaccuracies). My
father's side is Polish and Eastern European.

Which message board do you suggest I use other than those for Poland and
Ireland?

On the other hand, my great-great grandfather popped up in London in
1818. I have no idea where his father came from, but it was probably the
west country. etc etc

Oh, yes, we can all plant our various names on various (place and
surname) message boards. You have to remember which board you've been to
or that you've been to boards at all. Sometimes, you only remember when
someone responds to you.

A newsgroup is much more convenient. There are ongoing discussions about
all sorts of related matters, such as 17th century Virginian Law or when
Parish Registers began in England, which don't get aired in newsgroups
and which could have a bearing on research. Or someone posting on his
research in a newsgroup you are subscribed to may inadvertently mention
a name which may have relevance to your own research.

The history of Europe is the history of migration other than that to
America. The displaced Huguenots of France went to England and Ireland
in the late 17th century. In the late 18th century, many Irish went to
England to help build the newly-developing canals, and half a century
later, more hungry Irish left their country for England as well as
America. Eastern European Jews left their various homelands for England
in the late 19th century. There was a developing population of black
Africans in England from the 17th century onwards. The list goes on and
on including the constant stream of Europeans emigrating to America,
Canada, Australia, South Africa and elsewhere right up to the present
day. And that is without touching Far-Eastern migration.

It is typical of American insularity that they think only they have
distance problems in locating their ancestors. We all do, but few of us
expect to hook our ancestors on to the gentry and aristocracy, for the
sole purpose of finding as many royal ancestors as possible. Which is
what this newsgroup seems to be about.

Gjest

Re: SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabeth de Caldcotis (and Liv

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 12:50:03

Dear Will,

They are not the same. The husband of Eufemia Wemyss is of the Drumry
family (will post details later, when time allows). You might also see
details on the "Stirnet" site, which I think are accurate.

Cheers,

John

Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Fraser of Durris

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 18 mai 2006 12:54:08

According to SP, Christian was a dau of Robert Arbuthnot (d before 11th
Jan 1506) and his 2nd wife Mariota Scrymgeour (d 1518).

Christian married Alexander Fraser of Durris, the source for this is
Macfarlane, ii, 322)

Tony Pratt

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Tony Pratt » 18 mai 2006 13:38:38

Agreed

Renia wrote:
John Brandon wrote:

I think it's best that the group continue "as is," with people simply
ignoring the parts that don't interest them. Discussion of gateway
ancestors *is* certainly allowed in this newsgroup as currently
established. I post here because it seems to be read by a large number
of people who publish in the American genealogical mags (hence my ideas
may get a fair amount of exposure).

But American gateway genealogy isn't medieval, either in timescale or in
genealogical methodology.

If Americans can use this newsgroup for their gateway ancestors, then
why cannot Brits use this newsgroup for their gateway ancestors: those
who left the countryside during the industrial revolution, for example,
for the mills and factories in the 19th century? Why cannot Australians
use this newsgroup for their First Fleet ancestors, etc, ad infinitum.

It is the wrong forum for American Gateway ancestors. Simple.

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 18 mai 2006 13:49:02

John Brandon wrote:
Awww, Reny girl, you have it so rough, so tough ...

Yea, s'true. :-) But I'm not alone!

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 18 mai 2006 13:51:44

Thinking about it, you didn't read my whole post, did you?

John Brandon wrote:

Awww, Reny girl, you have it so rough, so tough ...

Renia wrote:

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/17/06 5:36:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

I'm talking about newsgroups.

Why? If there is a message board at rootsweb/ancestry (which are all free)
that covers your area of Britian, why not use it instead of beating your head
against the idea that there's no newsgroup that covers it?
Will


Britain is larger than it seems and people moved around much more than
we think they did.

In Yorkshire, for example, in my one-name study, I've found several
instances where husbands married and settled in the wife's parish before
either going back to his own parish, or to quite another parish. And
this is before the Industrial Revolution, when vast numbers left the
rural parishes for the developing cities in search of work.

Which message board do you think the descendants of families such as
this should use?

As it happens, people related to my one-name-study use me. I have
hundreds of correspondents who find me through my one-name study and I'm
able to help them with their ancestry because of my huge database.

But what of the rest? Which message board should they use, do you think?

As to myself, my English ancestry is before their emigration to Ireland
in 1660. They are well documented in Burke's (barring inaccuracies). My
father's side is Polish and Eastern European.

Which message board do you suggest I use other than those for Poland and
Ireland?

On the other hand, my great-great grandfather popped up in London in
1818. I have no idea where his father came from, but it was probably the
west country. etc etc

Oh, yes, we can all plant our various names on various (place and
surname) message boards. You have to remember which board you've been to
or that you've been to boards at all. Sometimes, you only remember when
someone responds to you.

A newsgroup is much more convenient. There are ongoing discussions about
all sorts of related matters, such as 17th century Virginian Law or when
Parish Registers began in England, which don't get aired in newsgroups
and which could have a bearing on research. Or someone posting on his
research in a newsgroup you are subscribed to may inadvertently mention
a name which may have relevance to your own research.

The history of Europe is the history of migration other than that to
America. The displaced Huguenots of France went to England and Ireland
in the late 17th century. In the late 18th century, many Irish went to
England to help build the newly-developing canals, and half a century
later, more hungry Irish left their country for England as well as
America. Eastern European Jews left their various homelands for England
in the late 19th century. There was a developing population of black
Africans in England from the 17th century onwards. The list goes on and
on including the constant stream of Europeans emigrating to America,
Canada, Australia, South Africa and elsewhere right up to the present
day. And that is without touching Far-Eastern migration.

It is typical of American insularity that they think only they have
distance problems in locating their ancestors. We all do, but few of us
expect to hook our ancestors on to the gentry and aristocracy, for the
sole purpose of finding as many royal ancestors as possible. Which is
what this newsgroup seems to be about.


John Brandon

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 14:31:02

Also, the next Great Migration volume is going to be out later this
year, and it will include your information about James Matthews of Yarmouth,
Mass.

Remember to tell RCA about the Noyes-Brown marriage that showed up in
the extracted IGI --

John Brandon

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 14:31:58

Thinking about it, you didn't read my whole post, did you?

Yep, I'm pretty certain I read the whole thing.

Chris Dickinson

Re: Huddleston and Greene

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 18 mai 2006 15:18:53

Matthew mvernonconnolly wrote:


There was definitely a family called Crackenthorpe; they were of
Newbiggin, although which of the several places of that name in the
area I don't know. No idea whether or not they were the same stock as
the Machells- but they would doubtless be connected anyway through the
local gentry gene pool.


|Cumberland Families and Heraldry| has two Crackenthorpe entries : 34 lines
on |Crackenthorpe formerly of Newbiggin Hall| and 11 lines on |Crackenthorpe
of Howgill, cadet line of the Newbiggin family|.

More information is in its earlier sister volume, |An Armorial for
Westmorland and Lonsdale|, a copy of which I don't have; and in CWAAS 2
xxxiii - which go back to Sir John de Crackenthorpe (died 1436).

Chris

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 18 mai 2006 15:22:17

Dear Will ~

The name Ellen de Quincy is correct. On her own seal cited in two
sources below, she spelled her name "Eleine." "Eleine" is an archaic
form of Ellen.

1. Demay, Inventaire des Sceaux de la Normandie (1881): 66 (seal of
Ellen la Zouche dated 1286-Dame debout, en chape vairée et en surcot
armorié de besants, tenant à chaque main un écu: à la droite, un
écu besanté [ZOUCHE]; à la gauche, un écu portent une quintefeuille
[QUINCY/BEAUMONT]). Legend: SIGILE DÑA ELEINE LA ZOCHE.

2. Birch, Cat. of Seals in the British Museum 2 (1892): 404 (seal of
Ellen la Zouche dated c. 1298 [sic]-Pointed oval. Lady in
tightly-fitting dress, fur cloak, flat head-dress, in each hand a
shield of arms. Standing on a carved corbel. Arms: right ten bezants,
four, three, two, and one [ZOUCHE]; left a cinquefoil
[QUINCY/BEAUMONT]). Legend: SIGILE DÑA ELEINE LA ZOCHE.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/12/06 2:15:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Ellen de Quincy

Douglas I thought we were correcting each other on the mix of languages?
"Ellen" ? "de Quincy" ?
Shouldn't it be either "Ellen Quincy" or something like "Alinore de Quincy" ?

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 16:28:43

Do her a favor & tell her about your medieval descent,
through Edmund Hawes!

Leslie

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 16:35:31

You are quite welcome to that.
I have many more articles on the way,
almost all relating to New England colonists.

Leslie

John Brandon

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 16:36:29

Do her a favor & tell her about your medieval descent,
through Edmund Hawes!

Oh, she's probably not interested in that old thing --

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 17:22:02

In a message dated 5/18/2006 1:21:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

In Yorkshire, for example, in my one-name study, I've found several
instances where husbands married and settled in the wife's parish before
either going back to his own parish, or to quite another parish. And
this is before the Industrial Revolution, when vast numbers left the
rural parishes for the developing cities in search of work.

Which message board do you think the descendants of families such as
this should use?



Each one, like the rest of us do.

John Brandon

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 17:22:55

I should mention that the marriage of Lionel Chute is going to be
published in NEHGR soon (by someone else).

Do you happen to know who?

Leslie tells me the Chute item in _NEHGR_ is supposed to be by Bill
Fiske. I wonder if he is a Chute descendant, or if the item is just
incidental to a possible exploration of the identity of Rose, second
wife of Matthew Whipple of Ipswich. Either way, it should be
interesting.

Sorry to Harold (Hal) Bradley. You may eventually want to look into
the Chute line, however--your Stratton article was pretty interesting.
I won't be publishing anything formal on it ...

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 17:24:02

In a message dated 5/18/2006 1:21:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

Oh, yes, we can all plant our various names on various (place and
surname) message boards. You have to remember which board you've been to
or that you've been to boards at all. Sometimes, you only remember when
someone responds to you.

A newsgroup is much more convenient.
You don't have to remember, you get a message *when* someone responds. If
no one responds, then there's no point in going back to that board.

A newsgroup might be more convenient (although I cannot see how), a
newsgroup and a message board are ... identical. That is, there is no difference, in
my mind, whatsoever, in how they work.

What's the difference?
Will

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 17:27:02

In a message dated 5/18/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

Yea, s'true. :-) But I'm not alone!


Renia for someone that talks method a lot I haven't seen a lot of
*substance*. Will there come a time when you post your 17th century people?

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 17:37:02

In a message dated 5/18/2006 7:36:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

The name Ellen de Quincy is correct. On her own seal cited in two
sources below, she spelled her name "Eleine." "Eleine" is an archaic
form of Ellen.


Your two examples do not illustrate whether her name was "Ellen de Quincy"
or "Ellen Quincy" as you corrected me on a similar situation, not a week ago.
Will

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 18:38:02

Semi-OT (but not entirely).

Renia said: "It is typical of American insularity that they think only
they have distance problems in locating their ancestors. We all do, but
few of us expect to hook our ancestors on to the gentry and aristocracy,
for the
sole purpose of finding as many royal ancestors as possible. Which is
what this newsgroup seems to be about."

A little harsh, nonetheless not too far off the mark in too many cases.
But not, by any means, all.

Being myself American would seem to mean (according Renia) that I must
be "insularist"? I beg to differ. We Americans aren't all as
transparent, half-witted (etc., ad nauseam) as those who dislike us
categorically persist in believing. Tolerance!

People are infinitely more complex and boundary-exceeding than our
prejudices dictate.

With apologies for OT digressing,

Tony



Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 18 mai 2006 18:38:58

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

< Your two examples do not illustrate whether her name was "Ellen de
Quincy"
< or "Ellen Quincy" as you corrected me on a similar situation, not a
week ago.
< Will

First you implied you were disputing if her name was Ellen or Eleanor.
I said her name was Ellen. Now, you're disputing if her name was Ellen
Quincy or Ellen de Quincy. Plain English would help, Will. Which is
your question?

DR

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 18:46:51

We shouldnt take Renia too seriously.
I think shes just looking for attention.

As for 'insularity', most Americans usually have ancestors
in several European countries.

I have ancestors from:
Sweden, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg,
France, Switzerland, England, Indonesia & India.

I have some Jewish & Islamic descents, but only a small
percentage of Anglo Saxon ancestry. I do have a line from
King Edward III, through Quaker Pennsylvania.

Leslie

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 18 mai 2006 18:54:29

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/18/2006 5:51:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

Yea, s'true. :-) But I'm not alone!


Renia for someone that talks method a lot I haven't seen a lot of
*substance*. Will there come a time when you post your 17th century people?


You mean my 15th century people? When I'm ready.

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 18 mai 2006 18:54:46

lmahler@att.net wrote:

Do her a favor & tell her about your medieval descent,
through Edmund Hawes!

Who is Edmund Hawes???

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 18 mai 2006 19:00:20

Tony Hoskins wrote:

Semi-OT (but not entirely).

Renia said: "It is typical of American insularity that they think only
they have distance problems in locating their ancestors. We all do, but
few of us expect to hook our ancestors on to the gentry and aristocracy,
for the
sole purpose of finding as many royal ancestors as possible. Which is
what this newsgroup seems to be about."

A little harsh, nonetheless not too far off the mark in too many cases.
But not, by any means, all.

Thank you for your support. I don't mean to sound harsh, and of course
it doesn't apply to everyone.


Being myself American would seem to mean (according Renia) that I must
be "insularist"? I beg to differ. We Americans aren't all as
transparent, half-witted (etc., ad nauseam) as those who dislike us
categorically persist in believing. Tolerance!

Again, I don't mean ALL Americans. But, did you not see that report the
other day which said huge numbers of Americans can't find various places
on the map? There are plans afoot, apparently, to try to educate
American children better, geographically. I'm afraid we tend to come
across such map-blindness quite a lot over this side of the pond! I
always remember the 3 American girls on the ferry from Dover to Boulogne
discussing their intended trip to Scandinavia.

"We'll do Denmark in the morning, Norway in the afternoon and Sweden in
the evening."

They weren't joking.


People are infinitely more complex and boundary-exceeding than our
prejudices dictate.

Indeed.


With apologies for OT digressing,

Tony



Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 18 mai 2006 19:01:38

lmahler@att.net wrote:

We shouldnt take Renia too seriously.
I think shes just looking for attention.

Please. I don't have time to "look for attention".


As for 'insularity', most Americans usually have ancestors
in several European countries.


Of course they do. But many Americans have no idea where those countries
are.

I have ancestors from:
Sweden, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg,
France, Switzerland, England, Indonesia & India.

I have some Jewish & Islamic descents, but only a small
percentage of Anglo Saxon ancestry. I do have a line from
King Edward III, through Quaker Pennsylvania.

Leslie

Tony Hoskins

Re: Frangipani

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 19:02:02

http://www.sardimpex.com is a wonderful - in fact, incomparable - *tool* for
Italian noble genealogy. Caveat: it nonetheless frequently errs, notably
in unquestioning reliance on unsupported statements by Litta. Case in
point, the repetition of the error there as to the supposed "other wide"
of Niccolo Orsini, Conte di Nola. Still, many thanks to Davide Shama for
this fine, and immensely useful, site.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

John Brandon

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 19:02:23

Renia wrote:
lmahler@att.net wrote:

Do her a favor & tell her about your medieval descent,
through Edmund Hawes!

Who is Edmund Hawes???

Oh, one of my ancestors who had a remote royal line (from William the
Lion) through the Brome family of Baddesley Clinton, Warw. (By the
way, he's an ancestor of the three Miller sisters--the Crown Princess
of Greece, the Princess von Furstenburg, and Pia Getty).

I guess Leslie is implying that he is basically really boring and that
I carry on about him too much.

Tony Hoskins

Re: Frangipani

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 19:04:02

[Spellchecked version (!)]

http://www.sardimpex.com is a wonderful - in fact, incomparable - *tool* for
Italian noble genealogy. Caveat: it nonetheless frequently errs, notably
in unquestioning reliance on unsupported statements by Litta. Case in
point, the repetition of the error there as to the supposed "other wife"
of Niccolo Orsini, Conte di Nola. Still, many thanks to Davide Shama for
this fine, and immensely useful, site.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 18 mai 2006 19:16:21

In message of 18 May, Therav3@aol.com wrote:

The Erskine relationship is shown below, with certain
details missing (re: which, see my post to SGM, <SP Correction:
Sir James de Lindsay and Egidia Stewart> dated 11 June 2003).

Alexander Stewart = Joanna ____
__________________________I_______________
I I
James (the) Stewart NN Stewart
I I
I I
Walter = Marjory Sir Alexander = NN
Stewart I Bruce de Lindsay I
I I
I I
Robert II Sir Robert = Beatrix
K of Scots de Erskine I de Lindsay
I I
I I
ROBERT III SIR THOMAS de ERSKINE

SP, Vol 3, p. 9 says of Sir Alexander de Lindsay "There is reason to
believe that this wife was a sister of James, Steward of Scotland" for
which they give a reference of "See dispensation of 1346 below" and
which I can't locate!

Any views on SP's belief?


--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 19:41:34

Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler, CT
William Asfordby, NY
Thomas Brassey, PA
Obadiah Bruen, CT
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus, MA
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Park, CT
Edmund Kempe, VA
Roger Mallory, VA
John Umfreville, CT
John West, VA
John Winslow, MA

Can all of these really be true? I remember you claiming Maria Johanna
Somerset, as well, and implying you had a line from George Percy of VA
....

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 19:58:16

As for 'insularity', most Americans usually have ancestors
in several European countries.


Of course they do. But many Americans have no idea where those countries
are.


Last Month, A world-wide survey was conducted by the UN. The only
question asked was ... :

"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the
food shortage in the rest of the world ?"

The survey was a huge failure because:

In Africa they didn't know what "food" means.

In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" means.

In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" means.

In China they didn't know what "opinion" means.

In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" means.

In South America they didn't know what "please" means.

In the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" means.

Regards
Francisco
(Portugal)

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 18 mai 2006 20:01:48

Renia wrote:
Again, I don't mean ALL Americans. But, did you not see that report the
other day which said huge numbers of Americans can't find various places
on the map?

As if many Americans aren't equally aghast, but I somehow doubt those
failing the tests are genealogists (heck, some of these students can
barely read, let alone read a map - in many cases the problem is
general, not specific to anything that suggests insularity).

There are plans afoot, apparently, to try to educate
American children better, geographically.

There is a lot of wringing of hands over it, and a lot of targets being
established by groups with no direct role in the process. It will all
be repeated the next time a similar survey shows similar results.

I'm afraid we tend to come
across such map-blindness quite a lot over this side of the pond! I
always remember the 3 American girls on the ferry from Dover to Boulogne
discussing their intended trip to Scandinavia.

"We'll do Denmark in the morning, Norway in the afternoon and Sweden in
the evening."

They weren't joking.

I don't doubt it, but I have heard similar comments from Europeans, when
I was traveling over there, suggesting that someone from Ohio might run
over to California for the day, by merit simply of being in the same
country.

Insularity is hardly unique to Americans - we hear talk here of American
genealogy as if it were a unity, but there is probably more difference
between "early-modern" genealogy in neighboring Vermont and
Massachusetts (or eastern and western Massachusetts for that matter)
than between Hampshire and Durham (and before you call this statement
insular, it comes from experience in all four places).

taf

John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 20:10:22

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
What do you mean, are they "true"? True gateways, or lines I am fudging?
I am not in fact descended form Mary Johanna Somerset - yet. It's one of
those lines that is tantalizing, and is at the monent out of range, as
it were. And, if a *theory* I am working on is corrrect, there would be
a descent from George Percy. Not there yet, though.

Tony Hoskins

'Course they're all true gateways, silly (well, actually, I very much
doubt Winslow). What I meant was, are you truly a descendant of them?

I'm always a little suspicious of people who list such a large number.
Mine are:

William Sargent
Edmond Hawes
Mary Gye Maverick

with the following 'possibilies' for:

Anthony Collamore (possibly he was a gateway)
Jane Lawrence Giddings (possibly I'm descended)
Lionel Chute (possibly he was a gateway)

which seems like a much more sensible/ real number.

But then what do I know??

John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 20:28:06

Oh, one other 'possibly' --

Jane Price Cleeves (possibly she was a gateway; AND possibly I'm
descended)

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 20:35:03

"Who is Edmund Hawes???"

One of those danged "gateways".

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 20:39:02

Hello Leslie,

I enjoyed your observation. As to my own "insularity".

100% American. Guilty and "condemned" (in some jaundiced eyes.)

Having said this - my origins: 3/5 of my ancestry is mainly
English-colonial American, arriving 1608-1650. Also colonially-American
are lines of Dutch, Walloon, French, Norwegian (1624-1660), and German
(1718, 1737). 2/5 of my ancestry is "recently arrived" - i.e., Irish,
1830-1855; Scottish, 1845; and (my maternal grandmother) in 1906 from
England.

Proportionally:

44% English
25 % Scottish
13% Welsh
13% Irish
4 % German
1% Dutch (with traces of French, Walloon, Norwegian)
[perhaps] .055% Cherokee Indian

Talking of "gateways". I for one certainly appreciate the attention
these receive. Some of my own 1th century "ancient gateways" to America
include:

Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler, CT
William Asfordby, NY
Thomas Brassey, PA
Obadiah Bruen, CT
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus, MA
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Park, CT
Edmund Kempe, VA
Roger Mallory, VA
John Umfreville, CT
John West, VA
John Winslow, MA

When one examines the genealogical "big picture", it is impossible to
be truly "insular". One of the beautiful by-products of genealogy!

Tony







Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 20:41:40

I could have listed some gateways for whom proof has long stood, but I
subsequently disproved: Charles Chauncy, Peter Bulkeley, and Grace
(Chetwode) Bulkeley. I had even joined the Royal Bastards years ago on
Grace Chetwode, but closer examination in the past few years has forced
me to abandon that claim. I will in due course hope to publish a
correction to one of my _TAG_ article in this regard.

Wow, I didn't realize those particular gateways had been disproved.

But doesn't it strike you as foolish and greedy that, with all the
gateways you presently enjoy, you're still trying to squeeze in lines
to Johanna Maria Somerset and George Percy (very grand personages
indeed) ....?

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 20:59:02

What do you mean, are they "true"? True gateways, or lines I am fudging?
I am not in fact descended form Mary Johanna Somerset - yet. It's one of
those lines that is tantalizing, and is at the monent out of range, as
it were. And, if a *theory* I am working on is corrrect, there would be
a descent from George Percy. Not there yet, though.

Tony Hoskins

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> 05/18/06 11:41AM
Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler, CT
William Asfordby, NY
Thomas Brassey, PA
Obadiah Bruen, CT
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus, MA
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Park, CT
Edmund Kempe, VA
Roger Mallory, VA
John Umfreville, CT
John West, VA
John Winslow, MA

Can all of these really be true? I remember you claiming Maria
Johanna
Somerset, as well, and implying you had a line from George Percy of VA
....

John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 21:09:51

And, I'm amused by your thinking me greedy for working on possible/
probable new gateway lines! I just don't think of genealogy as a
"one-uppsmanship" endeavor. Sort of a "Genealogical Sweepstakes"?! Like

Sounds like some fiddling/ fudging _may_ have to be done to work in
Somerset & Percy. Good luck with that ...!

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 21:25:02

In a message dated 5/18/06 11:06:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< You mean my 15th century people? When I'm ready. >>

And in the meantime you will drone on and on about how "Americans" are
ruining this board. Can we just move on?

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 21:37:01

"which seems like a much more sensible/ real number."

Sensible number? Not understanding, that, John. Is there a quota in
this regard? Didn't get the memo!

"What I meant was, are you truly a descendant of them? I'm always a
little suspicious of people who list such a large number."

Yes, I am descended from the people I mentioned as my ancestors, John.


I could have listed some gateways for whom proof has long stood, but I
subsequently disproved: Charles Chauncy, Peter Bulkeley, and Grace
(Chetwode) Bulkeley. I had even joined the Royal Bastards years ago on
Grace Chetwode, but closer examination in the past few years has forced
me to abandon that claim. I will in due course hope to publish a
correction to one of my _TAG_ article in this regard.

Tony





Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> 05/18/06 12:10PM
"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
What do you mean, are they "true"? True gateways, or lines I am
fudging?
I am not in fact descended form Mary Johanna Somerset - yet. It's one
of
those lines that is tantalizing, and is at the monent out of range,
as
it were. And, if a *theory* I am working on is corrrect, there would
be
a descent from George Percy. Not there yet, though.

Tony Hoskins

'Course they're all true gateways, silly (well, actually, I very much
doubt Winslow). What I meant was, are you truly a descendant of them?

I'm always a little suspicious of people who list such a large number.
Mine are:

William Sargent
Edmond Hawes
Mary Gye Maverick

with the following 'possibilies' for:

Anthony Collamore (possibly he was a gateway)
Jane Lawrence Giddings (possibly I'm descended)
Lionel Chute (possibly he was a gateway)


But then what do I know??

Gjest

Re: Curious

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 21:53:02

In a message dated 5/18/06 9:50:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< 1.1a.1.2a Rosala (Susanna) of Ivrea*[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1003[7]

she m. 1stly Baldwin of Flanders,
2ndly Robert of France (later King Robert II)[8] >>

How does Eleanor's divorce from Louis VII (your source 8) factor into whether
Robert married the widowed Susanna?

Btw, I have her first husband as Arnulf not Baldwin.
Will

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 22:02:02

Hello, John. I apologize if I've been unclear. I didn't mean to imply
Chauncy-Chetwode-Bulkeley *as gateways* were disproved. Not at all.
They're rock-solid still. What I meant to say was my own lines back to
them are disproved (by me).

And, I'm amused by your thinking me greedy for working on possible/
probable new gateway lines! I just don't think of genealogy as a
"one-uppsmanship" endeavor. Sort of a "Genealogical Sweepstakes"?! Like
all of us, our research takes us where it will - regardless of our
"druthers". It is what it is!

All best,

Tony




Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: Birthdate of Margaret Butler, wife of W

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 22:07:24

UTZ@aol.com wrote:
Descendants of Margaret Butler

1 Margaret Butler b: Abt. 1465 d: Abt. 20 March 1539/40
.. +William Boleyn d: 1505 Burial: Norwich Cathedral
2 Anne Boleyn
.... +John Shelton, Sir
... 3 Mary Shelton
....... +Anthony Heveningham, Sir
...... 4 Dorothy Heveningham
.......... +Henry Vernon b: in of Hilton, STS, ENG
Dear Dave,

This particular line turns out to be an error- Dorothy Vernon was
indeed a Heveningham, but was mistakenly attributed to the senior
branch a few centuries back without foundation. She was actually
daughter of Christopher Heveningham of Aston, Staffs, and doesn't have
the Boleyn descent. FWIW her parentage has been corrected in the latest
Burke's Peerage. There are plenty of actual descendants of Sir Anthony
Heveningham though; Rose in Surrey, who posts here, is an expert on
that particular family.
-Matthew

Gjest

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 22:31:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 9:48:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< Spouse: Oliver Deincourt
Death: bef 19 Sep 1246[2],[20]
Birth: ca 1196[3]
Father: Oliver Deincourt (~1162-<1222)
Mother: Amabel

Children: Sir John (-<1257) >>

Is it possible that this Oliver Deincourt is the same one, who is the father
of Albreda Deincourt, wife of Peter de Rotherfeld and thereby parents of
Dionysia de Rotherfeld who married William Wentworth ?

Thanks
Will

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

OT: Was: [Re: What this list is]

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 18 mai 2006 22:35:02

----- Original Message -----
From: <francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: What this list is


| >
| > > As for 'insularity', most Americans usually have ancestors
| > > in several European countries.
| >
| >
| > Of course they do. But many Americans have no idea where those countries
| > are.
| >
|
| Last Month, A world-wide survey was conducted by the UN. The only
| question asked was ... :
|
| "Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the
| food shortage in the rest of the world ?"
|
| The survey was a huge failure because:
|
| In Africa they didn't know what "food" means.
|
| In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" means.
|
| In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" means.
|
| In China they didn't know what "opinion" means.
|
| In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" means.
|
| In South America they didn't know what "please" means.
|
| In the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" means.
|
| Regards
| Francisco
| (Portugal)

Heaven: The French are the cooks; the Italians, the lovers; the Germans, the administrators; the English, the police.

Hell: The English are the cooks; Germans, the Lovers; Italians, administrators; the French, the police

Ford
(Not a racist, but who loves a humorously turned stereotype)

PS I fall into 3/4 of these categories.

John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 22:49:19

Hmmm. You and Tony seem to be at the extreme of such things. As
Leslie noted today, he only has one gateway. I have three proved lines
(with four other possibilities). Even Gary Boyd Roberts himself only
has two (Ligon and Clarke). I suspect all of us, with the possible
exception of Leslie, have approximately the same amount of colonial
ancestry (the most recent arrival I know of in my own ancestry was from
Germany in the 1790s).

I think it must be somewhat unusual for an American to have more than
four or five gateways.



"Hal Bradley" wrote:
John,

Why is this number so unbelievable? If one has extensive Colonial ancestry,
the possibilities are there. There are probably very few people who find a
gateway ancestor and then try to find a way to tie into it because it will
lead them to European royalty. One simply does the research. If it leads to
a gateway ancestor, so be it. If it does not, so be it as well.

The number of my gateway ancestors is similar to Tony's:

Peter Bulkeley [Connecticut]
Martha (Eltonhead) Conway [Virginia]
Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards [Connecticut]
William Goddard [Massachusetts]
Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson [Rhode Island]
Alexander Magruder [Virginia]
Katherine (Hamby) Marbury [Massachusetts]
Mary (Gye) Maverick [Massachusetts]
Martha (Bulkeley) Mellowes [Massachusetts]
Elizabeth (Stratton) Thorndike [Massachusetts]
Anne (Derehaugh) Stratton [Massachusetts]
Frances (Deighton) Williams [Massachusetts]
Edward Windham [Virginia]

I also have some probable gateways (meaning, I descend from these
individuals, but their ancestry is lacking evidence from primary sources):

Michael Griswold [Connecticut]
John Hinton [Maryland]
Richard Waters [Massachusetts]


As for American insularity, one could argue that this list is too
Euro-centric. Where is the discussion of medieval African or Native American
ancestry? Where is the discussion of medieval Indian or Chinese ancestry? In
some cases the records do not exist. In other cases the records were so well
kept there is no need for discussion. I have a friend of Japanese ancestry
whose ancestors kept the records for 900 years. What is there to discuss? It
has all been recorded and does not need to be re-discovered. As Todd has
pointed out, this newsgroup is what the participants make of it.


Hal Bradley



-----Original Message-----
From: John Brandon [mailto:starbuck95@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:42 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler, CT
William Asfordby, NY
Thomas Brassey, PA
Obadiah Bruen, CT
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus, MA
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Park, CT
Edmund Kempe, VA
Roger Mallory, VA
John Umfreville, CT
John West, VA
John Winslow, MA

Can all of these really be true? I remember you claiming
Maria Johanna
Somerset, as well, and implying you had a line from George Percy of VA
...

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 22:56:01

Robert Bruce confirmed Malise' gift to Johanna of the lands of Cotarchy, and
based on this CP & SP estimate they married in 1323

Malise the 8th Earl Strathearn however acceded about 1327
This should imply that Malise 7 had a prior wife.
Once you get a prior wife then the idea that Joanna might be Helen's mother
has to be questioned.

Will

John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 mai 2006 23:02:27

have noticed that most people with gateways don't usually have more than 3 or 4. But, I know many folks with more. It's just a genealogical crap-shoot!

I don't know _many_ folks with more than 3 or 4, just you, Hal, and
Brice McAdoo-about-nothing Clagett, the king of all claimants!

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Robert Plumpton / Isabel Neville

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 18 mai 2006 23:06:01

Don't know. I think Agnes Gascoigne's mother was Joan Neville daughter
and heiress of John Neville and Elizabeth Newmarch.

Robert's son Robert married Isabel Babthorpe. Is there documentation
in DNB for Isabel Neville?

Doug Smith

Gjest

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 23:16:02

Dear Fellow Members,
It`s getting harder every day for the most
insular American to remain so. Obviously with so many jobs departing for
India, China, and probably Russia and the Ukraine, there`s more to the world then
the United States. Canada, Cuba and Mexico are also foreign lands which
largely control their own destinies.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 23:20:03

In a message dated 5/18/06 10:51:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Now, you're disputing if her name was Ellen
Quincy or Ellen de Quincy. >>

Not more than one week ago, you took me to task for using an "English" proper
name with "de", implying that "de" could only be used with the French or
*Latin* (as you say) versions of the name.

I'm just returning the favor :)

Hal Bradley

RE: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 18 mai 2006 23:35:02

John,

Why is this number so unbelievable? If one has extensive Colonial ancestry,
the possibilities are there. There are probably very few people who find a
gateway ancestor and then try to find a way to tie into it because it will
lead them to European royalty. One simply does the research. If it leads to
a gateway ancestor, so be it. If it does not, so be it as well.

The number of my gateway ancestors is similar to Tony's:

Peter Bulkeley [Connecticut]
Martha (Eltonhead) Conway [Virginia]
Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards [Connecticut]
William Goddard [Massachusetts]
Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson [Rhode Island]
Alexander Magruder [Virginia]
Katherine (Hamby) Marbury [Massachusetts]
Mary (Gye) Maverick [Massachusetts]
Martha (Bulkeley) Mellowes [Massachusetts]
Elizabeth (Stratton) Thorndike [Massachusetts]
Anne (Derehaugh) Stratton [Massachusetts]
Frances (Deighton) Williams [Massachusetts]
Edward Windham [Virginia]

I also have some probable gateways (meaning, I descend from these
individuals, but their ancestry is lacking evidence from primary sources):

Michael Griswold [Connecticut]
John Hinton [Maryland]
Richard Waters [Massachusetts]


As for American insularity, one could argue that this list is too
Euro-centric. Where is the discussion of medieval African or Native American
ancestry? Where is the discussion of medieval Indian or Chinese ancestry? In
some cases the records do not exist. In other cases the records were so well
kept there is no need for discussion. I have a friend of Japanese ancestry
whose ancestors kept the records for 900 years. What is there to discuss? It
has all been recorded and does not need to be re-discovered. As Todd has
pointed out, this newsgroup is what the participants make of it.


Hal Bradley



-----Original Message-----
From: John Brandon [mailto:starbuck95@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:42 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler, CT
William Asfordby, NY
Thomas Brassey, PA
Obadiah Bruen, CT
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus, MA
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Park, CT
Edmund Kempe, VA
Roger Mallory, VA
John Umfreville, CT
John West, VA
John Winslow, MA

Can all of these really be true? I remember you claiming
Maria Johanna
Somerset, as well, and implying you had a line from George Percy of VA
...

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 23:36:01

"Sounds like some fiddling/ fudging _may_ have to be done to work in
Somerset & Percy. Good luck with that ...!"

I'm not a fudger, John. I will however keep fiddling.

Tony

Gjest

Re: Marriage of Sir Simon Leek and Margaret de Vaux

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 23:38:02

In a message dated 5/12/06 8:51:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jeffery@iquest.net writes:

<< Payling notes that Margaret Vaux brought the following properties to Sir
Simon Leek (d. ca. 1382): "Cotham and lands over the Lincs. border at
Westborough, Dry Doddington, Stubton, >>

Do any of these give any indication of dates for these people?
The only thing firm I see right now is John Vaux died in 1349
Thanks
Will

RAY Montgomery

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av RAY Montgomery » 18 mai 2006 23:39:02

And shall we all not forget the insular countries of Texas and alaska!
Sorry just had to throw that in :)
Ray






From: Jwc1870@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:15:10 EDT

Dear Fellow Members,
It`s getting harder every day for the
most
insular American to remain so. Obviously with so many jobs departing for
India, China, and probably Russia and the Ukraine, there`s more to the
world then
the United States. Canada, Cuba and Mexico are also foreign lands which
largely control their own destinies.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 23:40:03

In a message dated 5/18/06 2:33:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hw.bradley@verizon.net writes:

<< Where is the discussion of medieval Indian or Chinese ancestry? In
some cases the records do not exist. In other cases the records were so well
kept there is no need for discussion. >>

You forget my most important criterion.... I can read the source material. I
dare say 95% of the list readers are able to read English, but maybe only 20%
or so can read say French or Italian or Spanish. Probably 2 to 5% can read
Latin. And it probably dwindles much faster after that.
Will

Gjest

Re: Robert Plumpton / Isabel Neville

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 23:45:03

Within the old DNB entry for "Sir William Plumpton 1404-80" is a sub-entry
for his son and heir Sir Robert Plumpton, child of his union with Joan
Winteringham of Winteringham Hall, who, he convinced a jury, he had
"married privately"
in 1451.

This was important, Sir Robert being born in 1453, and thereafter, his heir
designate.

The subentry for Robert states that he married Isabel Neville, "daughter of
Ralph Lord Neville". I cannot find an Isabel Neville in Leo's great site
however, and I don't seem to find this couple in stirnet either.

So is there some documentation that can confirm who Isabel's mother was ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Earlier I had asked if anyone knew who this Isabel Neville was. Please note
this is the SECOND wife of Robert Plumpton. His FIRST wife Agnes Gascoigne
died in 1504, he lived until 1523.

Anyone know who Isabel Neville's parents were?
Thanks
Will

Tony Hoskins

RE: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 23:50:03

Whew! Thanks so much, Hal. John seemed determined I had more than my
share of gateways. Being accused of fudging is something I'm not
accustomed to. I trust the charge will not be now leveled at you, too.

Your Deighton cousin,

Tony

"Hal Bradley" <hw.bradley@verizon.net> 05/18/06 02:33PM
John,


Why is this number so unbelievable? If one has extensive Colonial
ancestry,
the possibilities are there. There are probably very few people who
find a
gateway ancestor and then try to find a way to tie into it because it
will
lead them to European royalty. One simply does the research. If it
leads to
a gateway ancestor, so be it. If it does not, so be it as well.

The number of my gateway ancestors is similar to Tony's:

Peter Bulkeley [Connecticut]
Martha (Eltonhead) Conway [Virginia]
Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards [Connecticut]
William Goddard [Massachusetts]
Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson [Rhode Island]
Alexander Magruder [Virginia]
Katherine (Hamby) Marbury [Massachusetts]
Mary (Gye) Maverick [Massachusetts]
Martha (Bulkeley) Mellowes [Massachusetts]
Elizabeth (Stratton) Thorndike [Massachusetts]
Anne (Derehaugh) Stratton [Massachusetts]
Frances (Deighton) Williams [Massachusetts]
Edward Windham [Virginia]

I also have some probable gateways (meaning, I descend from these
individuals, but their ancestry is lacking evidence from primary
sources):

Michael Griswold [Connecticut]
John Hinton [Maryland]
Richard Waters [Massachusetts]


As for American insularity, one could argue that this list is too
Euro-centric. Where is the discussion of medieval African or Native
American
ancestry? Where is the discussion of medieval Indian or Chinese
ancestry? In
some cases the records do not exist. In other cases the records were so
well
kept there is no need for discussion. I have a friend of Japanese
ancestry
whose ancestors kept the records for 900 years. What is there to
discuss? It
has all been recorded and does not need to be re-discovered. As Todd
has
pointed out, this newsgroup is what the participants make of it.


Hal Bradley



-----Original Message-----
From: John Brandon [mailto:starbuck95@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:42 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler, CT
William Asfordby, NY
Thomas Brassey, PA
Obadiah Bruen, CT
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus, MA
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Park, CT
Edmund Kempe, VA
Roger Mallory, VA
John Umfreville, CT
John West, VA
John Winslow, MA

Can all of these really be true? I remember you claiming
Maria Johanna
Somerset, as well, and implying you had a line from George Percy of
VA
...

John P. Ravilious

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 18 mai 2006 23:53:24

Dear Will,

It is certain that Johanna de Menteith was 2nd wife of Earl
Malise, and that an earlier wife was mother of both his heir Malise
(8th earl as you have him) and his daughter Mary. William A. Lindsay
wrote of Malise (8), " The earl married first, before his succession, a
dau. of the Earl of Menteith. " [ Chart. Inchaffray lxx ], so Johanna
was a rather late marriage in the career of his father.

Helen had three children by Reginald de Cheyne, prior to her
marriage ca. 1353 to Sir David de Graham. The identity of Helen's
mother is not settled: I merely suggest she could have been daughter of
Johanna de Menteith, and that if this was so, it would resolve the
matter of Helen's son Sir Patrick de Graham being described as a
kinsman of King Robert III.

Cheers,

John


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Robert Bruce confirmed Malise' gift to Johanna of the lands of Cotarchy, and
based on this CP & SP estimate they married in 1323

Malise the 8th Earl Strathearn however acceded about 1327
This should imply that Malise 7 had a prior wife.
Once you get a prior wife then the idea that Joanna might be Helen's mother
has to be questioned.

Will

Tony Hoskins

RE: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 23:54:02

"I have a friend of Japanese ancestry whose ancestors kept the records
for 900 years."

This is such an interesting point. Has anyone encountered scientific,
analytical vindication for ancient Oriental genealogies? One hears so
much of their real antiquity, but I've always wondered how it would fare
under the bright light of empirical scrutiny.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 18 mai 2006 23:59:02

"I suspect all of us, with the possible exception of Leslie, have
approximately the same amount of colonial ancestry" .

Actually, John, I don't understand why you would assume this at all.
There is huge latitude for disparity in this regard.

I have noticed that most people with gateways don't usually have more
than 3 or 4. But, I know many folks with more. It's just a genealogical
crap-shoot!

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Leo van de Pas

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 mai 2006 00:03:01

Dear Hal,

Euro-centric? Thou art jesting...........Anglo-centric, yes, but Euro? I
would say not, unless you try to say that England IS Europe? :-)

Every now and then I try to raise interest in some continental ancestor,
because of the intermarriage between England and the continent, continental
medieval people can be ancestors of the very much cherished and appreciated
(by me) Gateway Ancestors.

In my opinion, the more is said about the _ancestors, any ancestor_ of
Gateway Ancestors, the better. As by doing that a knowledge is created,
supplied, shared, of people in the medieval period and if anyone stumbles
across one as an ancestor then more ancestors (all in the medieval period)
can be found.

What I am missing is efforts to find biographical details of medieval
people. It is great to have dates and place names, but we also need to know
what they did and in what kind of society they lived. That is why I
appreciate so much the details Nat Taylor and others supplied.

I think Stewart Baldwins efforts should be much more supported, as he gives
so much more than just names and dates.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hal Bradley" <hw.bradley@verizon.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: RE: What this list is - on "insularity"


John,

Why is this number so unbelievable? If one has extensive Colonial
ancestry,
the possibilities are there. There are probably very few people who find a
gateway ancestor and then try to find a way to tie into it because it will
lead them to European royalty. One simply does the research. If it leads
to
a gateway ancestor, so be it. If it does not, so be it as well.

The number of my gateway ancestors is similar to Tony's:

Peter Bulkeley [Connecticut]
Martha (Eltonhead) Conway [Virginia]
Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards [Connecticut]
William Goddard [Massachusetts]
Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson [Rhode Island]
Alexander Magruder [Virginia]
Katherine (Hamby) Marbury [Massachusetts]
Mary (Gye) Maverick [Massachusetts]
Martha (Bulkeley) Mellowes [Massachusetts]
Elizabeth (Stratton) Thorndike [Massachusetts]
Anne (Derehaugh) Stratton [Massachusetts]
Frances (Deighton) Williams [Massachusetts]
Edward Windham [Virginia]

I also have some probable gateways (meaning, I descend from these
individuals, but their ancestry is lacking evidence from primary sources):

Michael Griswold [Connecticut]
John Hinton [Maryland]
Richard Waters [Massachusetts]


As for American insularity, one could argue that this list is too
Euro-centric. Where is the discussion of medieval African or Native
American
ancestry? Where is the discussion of medieval Indian or Chinese ancestry?
In
some cases the records do not exist. In other cases the records were so
well
kept there is no need for discussion. I have a friend of Japanese ancestry
whose ancestors kept the records for 900 years. What is there to discuss?
It
has all been recorded and does not need to be re-discovered. As Todd has
pointed out, this newsgroup is what the participants make of it.


Hal Bradley



-----Original Message-----
From: John Brandon [mailto:starbuck95@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:42 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler, CT
William Asfordby, NY
Thomas Brassey, PA
Obadiah Bruen, CT
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus, MA
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Park, CT
Edmund Kempe, VA
Roger Mallory, VA
John Umfreville, CT
John West, VA
John Winslow, MA

Can all of these really be true? I remember you claiming
Maria Johanna
Somerset, as well, and implying you had a line from George Percy of VA
...



Leo van de Pas

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 mai 2006 00:09:02

I believe (hope I am wrong) that even the Japanese Imperial family tree is
not too secure as by adoptions the bloodline has been fudged. I for one
would love to know more about Chinese and Japanese lineages. I have a little
bit on the present day Japanese Imperial family on my website---any
additional information greatly appreciated.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: What this list is - on "insularity"


"I have a friend of Japanese ancestry whose ancestors kept the records
for 900 years."

This is such an interesting point. Has anyone encountered scientific,
analytical vindication for ancient Oriental genealogies? One hears so
much of their real antiquity, but I've always wondered how it would fare
under the bright light of empirical scrutiny.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562


Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 19 mai 2006 00:20:03

"Euro-centric? Thou art jesting...........Anglo-centric, yes, but Euro?
I
would say not, unless you try to say that England IS Europe? :-)"

I'm with Leo, here. I'm aching for substantive discussion of Italian,
and even Franco-Greco, medieval families, inter alios.

Tony


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 00:22:02

Thursday, 18 May, 2006


Dear Tim,

You wrote:

The new-ish Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has Alice as the
first wife of Richard de Camville and the mother of Gerard. They say
that Millicent was the second wife and the mother of Richard de Camville
who died in 1191.

Should a correction be sent in to ODNB?


========================


Evidently such a correction is needed. Following is a
pedigree which follows the descent of Brattleby, Lincs. from the
Domesday tenant Colswein, through Nichole de la Haye, to Nichole's
granddaughter Idoine de Camville (wife of Sir William Longespee).
This is based in large part on the work of I. J. Sanders and
K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, as noted.

Cheers,

John




1 Colswein of Lincoln
----------------------------------------

of Brattleby, co. Lincs.

tenant of said manor in Domesday Book, 1086[1]

Children: Picot


1.1 Picot of Lincoln
----------------------------------------

of Brattleby, co. Lincoln[2]

(he d.s.p., succeeded by sister Beatrice acc.
to Sanders[3] - in error)

re: his wife:

'Beatrix uxor Picoti' [DD 1134 , citing Dugdale,
Mon. Anglicanum II:601, no. X[4]]

Spouse: Beatrix

Children: Muriel


1.1.1 Muriel of Lincoln[1]
----------------------------------------

heiress of her father

'Muriel Uxor Robert de Haia' [DD 495[4] ]

previously identified as daughter of Colswein by Anthony
Wagner[1] [see corrective article in Prosopon, p. 109 - Brattleby,
citing BL Add. 35296 fol. 413][2]

re: her husband:
of Brattleby, co. Lincoln (de jure uxoris)[3]

founder of Boxgrove priory[5]

Spouse: Robert de la Haye[1]
Death: bef 1156[3]

Children: Richard (->1189)
Cecily


1.1.1.1 Richard de la Haye[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1189[6]

of Duddington, co. Northants. [7] and Brattleby, co. Lincs.[3]

fl. ca. 1195 :
According to an Inquisition post mortem in 1293,
'in the time of Richard I [1189-1199], Duddington
belonged to Richard de la Haye..'[6]

constable of Lincoln castle[3]

Spouse: Matilda de Vernon
Father: William de Vernon

Children: Nicole (-1230)
Juliana
Isabel


1.1.1.1.1 Nicole de la Haye[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1230[8]

elder daughter and coheiress [her maritagium or inheritance
included Brattleby, co. Lincs.]

acting as hereditary constable ('castellan') of Lincoln, she
defended the city against the baronial opponents of King John
under Earl William of Lincoln, 1216 [Warren, p. 253][9]

originally thought to have had manor of Duddington, co. Northants.
as her maritagium on marriage to Oliver Deincourt: this marriage
disproven, as confusion with her niece Nichole [see CP articles,
Vol IV-Deincourt, p. 118 note c as identified by Cris Nash and
resolved by Rosie Bevan][7],[6]

cf. Rot. Dominabus, p. 12[10]

re: her husband:

lord of Camville

Charter of Gerard de Camvilla dated 1176-83, addressed to Richard
bishop of Chester, confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the
monks of the Cistercian order there serving God, the gift which his
father Richard de Camvilla made to the said abbey, namely the whole
land of Smita to found an abbey of the Cistercian order, with
demesne and other appurtenances in wood and plain, in ways and
paths, in land and water, in meadows and pastures, and in free alms
quit from all earthly service and secular exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de
Camvill' his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla. '
[ Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion
passant.
Note : For date and seal: see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
p. 8.] - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory
of Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194[11]

sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1189[12], and again 1199-1205[13]

according to Inq.p.m. (for later tenant), he 'intruded upon the manor'
of Benham, co. Berks. following the death of his brother Richard
[the manor then escheating to the crown, with Hugh Wake being
enfeoffed by King Richard I][14]

a supporter of John, count of Mortain in the absence of Richard:
' Longchamp [William, bp of Ely and regent] in 1191 removed him
from the shrievalty [of Lincolnshire], and attempted to reduce
Lincoln Castle; but it was stoutly defended by Nicholaa,
Camville himself being with John until the fall of Nottingham and
Tickhill compelled Longchamp to raise the siege. Camville was
excommunicated the same year. On Richard's return in 1194
he was deprived of the wardenship of Lincoln Castle and the
shrievalty of the county, and was arraigned by Longchamp
at Nottingham on a charge of harbouring robbers and
treating the king's writ with contempt. His estates were
forfeited, but he recovered them on payment of a fine of
2,000 marks. His wife also paid a fine of 200 marks...
On the accession of John, Camville was reappointed
warden of Lincoln Castle and sheriff of the county, and
purchased from the king for 1,000 marks the lands of
Thomas de Verdun and the wardship of his widow, with
liberty to marry her to his son Richard. ' [DNB p. 856[15]]

recorded as Sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1200-01:
' 302. Lincolnshire:- Gerard de Canville (Hubert fitz Richard
for him) renders his accunt. ' [Bain I:48[16], cites Pipe Roll
2 John, Rot. 6]

also shown by Anthony Wagner, pedigree of 'English Ancestors of
Edward IV'[1]
first husband of Nichola de la Haye (cf. CP IV:118, sub Deincourt)[7]

had a charter for a market at Stoney Middleton, co. Oxon:
' (Grant: other) gr 1201, by K John to Gerard de Camville
(VCH Oxfordshire, vi, p. 245). '[17]

cf. Painter, p. 84[13]

Spouse: Gerard de Camville[1]
Birth: ca 1150
Death: 1214[8]
Father: Richard de Camville (-ca1176)
Mother: Millicent of Rethel (ca1110-)
Marr: bef 1185[8]

Children: Richard (-<1230)


1.1.1.1.1.1 Richard de Camville[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1230, d.v.m.[3]

of Avington, co. Berks., Godington, Stoney Middleton, and Stratton,
co. Oxon.
lord of Camville

his father purchased the marriage of Eustache Basset, widow of
Thomas de Verdun in 1199 (Paul Reed, FASG citing the Pipe
Rolls)[18],[15]

record from the plea rolls, 1207/8:
' Curia Regis Roll. Mich. 9. John, m. 4.

Oxon. - The Prior of Kenilworth sued Nicholas de Verdun (called
to warranty by Richard de Canvill and Eustachia, his wife) for
the next presentation to the church of Hethe.

Lecelina de Clinton.
I
Bertram de Verdun.
_______I___________________________________________________
I I
Thomas de Verdun, = Eustachia. = Richard de Nicholas de Verdun,
first husband, Canvill, the defendant.
ob. s.p. second husband.
' [Gen XX:165[19]]



Spouse: Eustache Basset[7]
Father: Gilbert Basset (-<1205)
Mother: Egeline de Courtenay
Marr: ca 1199[18],[15]

Children: Idoine (-<1252)


1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Idoine de Camville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 21 Sep 1252[20]

heiress of her father[7], and her grandmother Nichola de la Haye[3]

evidently also heiress of her mother - the manor of Wretchwick,
Oxon. was part of the maritagium of her daughter Ela (m. James
de Audley), and her husband William Longespee had a charter for
a market at Bicester granted 20 Oct 1239[17]

her inheritance included the manor of Brattleby, Lincs. (CP XI:385)[7]
and a third part of the manor of Shalford, co. Surrey [see suit
brought by Ingram de Preaux, Sept 1226 - Eyton, vol. V, p. 291][21]

Spouse: Sir William Longespee
Death: 7 Feb 1249, battle of Mansura, Egypt (on crusade)[20]
Birth: bef 12 May 1205[22]
Father: William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (ca1175-1225)
Mother: Ela of Salisbury (ca1187-1261)
Marr: aft Apr 1216[7]

Children: Sir William (-1257)
Ela (-<1299)
Ida (->1261)
Richard (-<1261)


1. "Pedigree and Progress," Sir Anthony Wagner, London: Phillimore & Co.,
Ltd., 1975.
2. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Additions and Corrections to Sanders’s Baronies
Prosopon, Number 11 (July 2000)," www. linacre.ox.ac.uk/research/Prosop, David E.
Thornton, editor, Prosopon 11 (July 2000), The Unit for Prosopographic
Research, Linacre College, Oxford, Little Easton (p. 130), Aveley (p. 2); Brattleby
(p. 109) ; North Cadbury (p. 68), above are emendations to Ian Sander's work,
English Baronies (1960).
3. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent,
1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
4. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund
de Stuteville), full title: Domesday Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons,
Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
5. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's cousin, John de St.
John," Aug 12, 2003, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites Boxgrove Cartulary, p.
181 (an English version of the "History of the Foundation, and Founders'
Genealogy" ).
6. Rosie Bevan, "Deincourt Uncertainties," January 29, 2002,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, discrepancies re: Nichole, and Nichole de la Haye, cited by
Cristopher Nash.
7. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint, 1982 (Alan
Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the United Kingdom.
8. Alan B. Wilson, "Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury," Apr 14,
1997, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, reposted as "Re: Marmion Question", Aug 28,
1999, Alan B. Wilson {abwilson@uclink4.berkeley.edu}.
9. W. L. Warren, "King John," New Haven: Yale University Press, 1997 (orig.
published 1981 in UK, Eyre Methuen Ltd), Yale English Monarchs series.
10. J. H. Round, ed., "Rotuli de Dominabus et Pueris et Puellis de XII
Comitatibus," The Publications of the Pipe Roll Society, N.S., 35, London, 1913.
11. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/, extracted 7 October,
2002, DEEDS OF TITLE AND COGNATE PAPERS, Nottinghamshire, DD/4P/22/250 - re:
Aldeby and minority, William de Morley (1 March 1339/40), Girlington: from
Warwickshire County Record Office: Mordaunt of Walton, Suffolk Record Office,
Ipswich Branch: The Iveagh (Phillipps) Suffolk Manuscripts, ref. HD 1538/172/3 -
date: 6 Aug 1272 (re: Weyland), Suffolk Record Office, Ipswich Branch: The
Iveagh (Phillipps) Suffolk Manuscripts, Thredling and Stow Hundreds, HD 1538/15
Vol.15/fol.17/4 - date: 28 Dec 1394, (ref. to Robert Morley, knt.), Hastings:
from Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of Gressenhall, charters and other
documents re: Hastings of Elsing, from FILE - Charter - Grant - ref. MR 72 241
x 3, also, Norfolk Record Office: Collecton of Manorial Documents relating to
Gressenhall and Hunstanton, (includes COLLECTION of MANORIAL DOCUMENTS
relating to GRESSENHALL and HUNSTANTON).
12. Cristopher Nash, "Which Richard de Camville married Millicent?," May 31,
2000, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, resp. to email, Dexter Kenfield
(dekester@mindspring.com).
13. Sidney Painter, "The Reign of King John," Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins
Press, 1949.
14. Cristopher Nash, "de Camville (Results and Thanks)," June 2, 2000,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, commentary on research of Dexter Kenfield, pub. May 31,
2000, cites Inquisitions Post Mortem Henry III, 1904, 294,, item 658 - C.
Hen. III. File 44. (11).
15. "Gerard de Camville [article]," Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford
Univ. Press, p. 856: Gerard de Camville.
16. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I), full title: Calendar of
Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved in Her Majesty's Public Record
Office, London.
17. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/,
extracted 5 Nov 2001, Wiltshire [Bassett], Yorkshire [Salvain] - North Duffield.
18. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Clemence Dauntsey," Nov 16, 2001,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, information also posted by Todd A. Farmerie.
19. Hon. George Wrottesley, "Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls," The Genealogist
(N.S.), Vol. XX, 1904, pp. 28 et seq.
20. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Baltimore:
Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
21. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London: John Russell
Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster) and 133-142 (Barony
of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole Brace and de Bracy).
22. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: Two Ida Longespee's: Same Generation," Sept 14,
2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, re: Idoine de Camville, cites Farrer
(Honors and Knights' Fees 2:222), Farrer citing R. Lit.Claus 2:110b, 123 [Close
Rolls].

Gjest

Re: Robert Plumpton / Isabel Neville

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 00:23:02

In a message dated 5/18/06 3:15:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
alden@mindspring.com writes:

<< Don't know. I think Agnes Gascoigne's mother was Joan Neville daughter
and heiress of John Neville and Elizabeth Newmarch.

Robert's son Robert married Isabel Babthorpe. Is there documentation
in DNB for Isabel Neville? >>

Yes that's where I found the reference. It simply calls her Isabel Neville
with no further comment.
Will

Leo van de Pas

Gateway 'One-upmanship" was-Re: What this list is - on "insu

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 mai 2006 00:24:01

Dear Tony,

Generalising is such a silly thing, glad you do not subscribe to it. I know
of one person who descends from _ALL_ of the following Gateway Ancestors:

Abigail Ford
William Holton
Samuel Allen
Thomas Woodford
Mary Blott
Henry Woodward
Thomas Bishop
William Cogswell
John Fobes
Edward Walden
James Morgan
Thomas Parke
Dorothy Thompson
Augustine Warner
Col. George Reade
Adam Hawkes
Mrs. Ann Hutchinson
William Gager
John Luff
Robert Parke
Martha Chaplin
Alice Freeman

Can anyone out-do this one? :-)
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


"I suspect all of us, with the possible exception of Leslie, have
approximately the same amount of colonial ancestry" .

Actually, John, I don't understand why you would assume this at all.
There is huge latitude for disparity in this regard.

I have noticed that most people with gateways don't usually have more
than 3 or 4. But, I know many folks with more. It's just a genealogical
crap-shoot!

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562


Kevin Bradford

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Kevin Bradford » 19 mai 2006 00:31:02

Dorothy James Greswolde's [da. of Henry James, Gent. & Plantagenet descendant Bridget Lyttleton of Belbroughton, co. Worcs.] offspring never left England; Michael Griswold of CT is therefore not of this line, though he is often, and erroneously, claimed to be Dorothy's son. I descend from Dorothy's sister, Anne James Rudyard. The Worcester sources cited in the following link will provide more details:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... t&id=I1139

If you haven't already, you might wish to contact the Griswold genealogist for further details concerning Michael of Wethersfield:

http://www.griswoldfamily.org/griswold_people.htm

Best,
Kevin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hal Bradley" <hw.bradley@verizon.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: RE: What this list is - on "insularity"

The number of my gateway ancestors is similar to Tony's:

Peter Bulkeley [Connecticut]
Martha (Eltonhead) Conway [Virginia]
Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards [Connecticut]
William Goddard [Massachusetts]
Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson [Rhode Island]
Alexander Magruder [Virginia]
Katherine (Hamby) Marbury [Massachusetts]
Mary (Gye) Maverick [Massachusetts]
Martha (Bulkeley) Mellowes [Massachusetts]
Elizabeth (Stratton) Thorndike [Massachusetts]
Anne (Derehaugh) Stratton [Massachusetts]
Frances (Deighton) Williams [Massachusetts]
Edward Windham [Virginia]

I also have some probable gateways (meaning, I descend from these
individuals, but their ancestry is lacking evidence from primary sources):

Michael Griswold [Connecticut]
John Hinton [Maryland]
Richard Waters [Massachusetts]


As for American insularity, one could argue that this list is too
Euro-centric. Where is the discussion of medieval African or Native
American
ancestry? Where is the discussion of medieval Indian or Chinese ancestry?
In
some cases the records do not exist. In other cases the records were so
well
kept there is no need for discussion. I have a friend of Japanese ancestry
whose ancestors kept the records for 900 years. What is there to discuss?
It
has all been recorded and does not need to be re-discovered. As Todd has
pointed out, this newsgroup is what the participants make of it.


Hal Bradley



-----Original Message-----
From: John Brandon [mailto:starbuck95@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:42 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler, CT
William Asfordby, NY
Thomas Brassey, PA
Obadiah Bruen, CT
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus, MA
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Park, CT
Edmund Kempe, VA
Roger Mallory, VA
John Umfreville, CT
John West, VA
John Winslow, MA

Can all of these really be true? I remember you claiming
Maria Johanna
Somerset, as well, and implying you had a line from George Percy of VA
...




Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 00:45:03

Thursday, 18 May, 2006


Dear Tim,

You posted earlier today in this thread:

SP, Vol 3, p. 9 says of Sir Alexander de Lindsay "There is reason to
believe that this wife was a sister of James, Steward of Scotland" for
which they give a reference of "See dispensation of 1346 below" and
which I can't locate!

Any views on SP's belief?


=================================


I had expressed my view on the issue in a prior post to SGM (see
below), in June 2003. The consanguinity of Sir James de Lindsay and
Egidia Stewart on their mothers' side is unresolved, but I believe
involved mutual descent from Robert, Earl of Strathearn. On the
fathers' side, the SP account you mentioned suggests the marriage
of Sir Alexander de Lindsay to a dau. of Alexander, the Stewart, but
this does not work with the dispensation of 1346: there is a
generation missing in the SP version (see below).

Cheers,

John


=================================================

SP Correction: Sir James de Lindsay and Egidia Stewart

From: Therav3 - view profile
Date: Wed, Jun 11 2003 5:02 pm
Email: Therav3@aol.com
Groups: soc.genealogy.medieval



Wednesday, 11 June, 2003

Hello All,


With regard to Sir James de Lindsay, Lord of Crawford (d. bef 11
Nov 1358) and his wife Egidia Stewart, daughter of Walter the Stewart
(half-sister to King Robert II), the account in SP states,

' A papal dispensation for this marriage was granted at
Avignon 3 Ides of April 1346, which describes the
spouses as within the third and fourth degree on the
father's side, and in the fourth degree on the mother's.
A strong inference thus arises that Sir James' grandmother,
wife of Sir Alexander, was daughter to the Steward.' [1]

This would seem a reasonable hypothesis, and is taken up in the
databases most noted on the internet [showing the wife of Sir
Alexander Lindsay as a daughter of Alexander le Steward, d. 1283, and
his wife Jean of Bute, also called Jean 'mac Sorley'], but only if
the 'third degree' relationship were that of Sir James, and not of
his wife. In fact, this is in error, and the wife of Sir Alexander
Lindsay could not be the daughter of (this particular) Alexander le
Steward.

The chronology supports this. The usual presumption is of course,
that the shorter range of generations would be that of the husband
(James in this case), but the following disprove the presumption:

(A) Walter the Stewart, father of Egidia, being a younger son
of James le Stewart, and being born at a rather late date
in James' career at that. James, whose parents were born
one in 1214, the other no later than 1211, was likely over
50 years of age at Walter's birth); and

(B) Egidia herself was a daughter of Walter le Stewart's 2nd
marriage, to Isabel Graham, and was born when her
father Walter was say 30 years of age, or possibly more
(she was first married in 1346, some 20 years after her
father's death at age 33 or 34).

(C) Egidia was a granddaughter of James le Steward; if Sir
James de Lindsay was the grandson of a daughter of the
same James le Steward, their relationship would have been
in the 2nd and 3rd degrees.

The following more correctly illustrates their relationship
' within the third and fourth degree on the father's side ':


Alexander le Steward = Jean of Bute
_______________________I________________
I I
James le = Egidia (Giles) NN le Steward
Steward I de Burgh I
_________I I
I I
Walter the = 2) Isabel de NN = Sir Alexander
Stewart I Graham I de Lindsay
I ____________I
I I
I Sir David de = Maria
I Lindsay I Abernethy
I __________I
I I
Egidia Stewart = Sir James de Lindsay


The relationship, 'third and fourth degree on the father's side',
actually means in this case that, on their fathers' side the third
degree relationship is that of Egidia Stewart, and therefore the
fourth degree relationship is that of Sir James Lindsay, as shown
above.

Two possibilities I would suggest would resolve the missing
individuals in Sir James de Lindsay's ancestry:

1. The wife of Sir Alexander de Lindsay was an otherwise
unknown daughter of Sir John le Steward, younger brother of
James le Stewart, who died at Falkirk in 1298 (he had at
least 5 known sons, and one known daughter).

2. The wife of Sir Alexander de Lindsay was an otherwise
unknown daughter of Reginald de Crawford by a daughter of
Alexander le Steward (d. 1283). This would account for

A. The 3rd - 4th degree relationship under discussion;

B. The acquisition by Sir Alexander de Lindsay of lands in
Crawford (these were first acquired by Sir Alexander,
following whom the best known Lindsay holding was
Crawford - hence his descendants, the Earls thereof);

C. The occurrence of Reginald de Lindsay, a son of
Sir Alexander de Lindsay and younger brother of Sir
James (SP Vol III, p. 9).

Any added documentation, comment or criticism is welcome. Also,
if anyone has a solution to the other relationship in this
dispensation (Sir James and Egidia were related in 'the fourth degree
on the mother's [side]'), I would be glad to hear of it.


Good luck, and good hunting.


John *


NOTES


[1] The Scots Peerage, Sir James Balfour Paul, ed. Vol III
(Lindsay, Earl of Crawford), p. 11, citing Papal Letters,
iii. 225.


* John P. Ravilious

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is - UN joke (indeed it is)

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 19 mai 2006 01:05:02

"In the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" means."

Precisely the type and quality of "humor" one would expect from the
likes of the UN. Many of us here heartily encourage their exodus to
anywhere else.

Gjest

Re: Robert Plumpton / Isabel Neville

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 01:14:01

Isabel or Elizabeth, dau of Ralph Lord Nevill, son and heir app of Ralph
Earl of Westemrland; marr before 18 Sep 21 Hen VII 1505. He other marriage was
to Lawrence Kighley of New Hall, near Otley esq.; 2nd husband, 10 May 20 Hen
VIII 1528-9 She dsp.(The Plumpton Correspondence edited by Thomas Stapleton)

Adrian

In a message dated 18/05/2006 22:44:46 GMT Standard Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:

Within the old DNB entry for "Sir William Plumpton 1404-80" is a sub-entry
for his son and heir Sir Robert Plumpton, child of his union with Joan
Winteringham of Winteringham Hall, who, he convinced a jury, he had
"married privately"
in 1451.

This was important, Sir Robert being born in 1453, and thereafter, his heir
designate.

The subentry for Robert states that he married Isabel Neville, "daughter of
Ralph Lord Neville". I cannot find an Isabel Neville in Leo's great site
however, and I don't seem to find this couple in stirnet either.

So is there some documentation that can confirm who Isabel's mother was ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Earlier I had asked if anyone knew who this Isabel Neville was. Please note
this is the SECOND wife of Robert Plumpton. His FIRST wife Agnes Gascoigne
died in 1504, he lived until 1523.

Anyone know who Isabel Neville's parents were?
Thanks
Will

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 19 mai 2006 01:21:26

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/18/06 10:51:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Now, you're disputing if her name was Ellen
Quincy or Ellen de Quincy.

Not more than one week ago, you took me to task for using an "English" proper
name with "de", implying that "de" could only be used with the French or
*Latin* (as you say) versions of the name.

I'm just returning the favor :)

If I corrected you, Will, it was to help you, not to embarass you. If
you thought otherwise, I apologize.

Perhaps you should replay the original post I made in which I allegedly
"took you to task." Then, I might know better what you were talking
about. Also, you need to make clearer the nature of your current
question. I'm still clueless what you really want.

If this helps, the article "de" was used with some English surnames
until about 1400, when it was phased out. Since Ellen de Quincy lived
prior to 1400, her correct surname is "de Quincy."

DR

Hal Bradley

RE: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 19 mai 2006 01:24:01

Dear Kevin,

Thank you. I am aware of this false ancestry. Michael Griswold's ancestry
would be through the Shuckburgh family.

The Griswold family organization have suggested that Michael Griswold of
Connecticut was the son of Edward & Margaret (Blencoe) Griswold. This is the
unproven, though possible, connection. Edward Griswold's mother, Elizabeth
Shuckburgh, has a descent, through the Vaux family, from Edward I, King of
England.

Hal Bradley


-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Bradford [mailto:plantagenet60@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:31 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


Dorothy James Greswolde's [da. of Henry James, Gent. &
Plantagenet descendant Bridget Lyttleton of Belbroughton, co.
Worcs.] offspring never left England; Michael Griswold of CT
is therefore not of this line, though he is often, and
erroneously, claimed to be Dorothy's son. I descend from
Dorothy's sister, Anne James Rudyard. The Worcester sources
cited in the following link will provide more details:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... GET&db=pla
ntagenet&id=I1139

If you haven't already, you might wish to contact the
Griswold genealogist for further details concerning Michael
of Wethersfield:

http://www.griswoldfamily.org/griswold_people.htm

Best,
Kevin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hal Bradley" <hw.bradley@verizon.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: RE: What this list is - on "insularity"

The number of my gateway ancestors is similar to Tony's:

Peter Bulkeley [Connecticut]
Martha (Eltonhead) Conway [Virginia]
Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards [Connecticut]
William Goddard [Massachusetts]
Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson [Rhode Island]
Alexander Magruder [Virginia]
Katherine (Hamby) Marbury [Massachusetts]
Mary (Gye) Maverick [Massachusetts]
Martha (Bulkeley) Mellowes [Massachusetts]
Elizabeth (Stratton) Thorndike [Massachusetts]
Anne (Derehaugh) Stratton [Massachusetts]
Frances (Deighton) Williams [Massachusetts]
Edward Windham [Virginia]

I also have some probable gateways (meaning, I descend from these
individuals, but their ancestry is lacking evidence from
primary sources):

Michael Griswold [Connecticut]
John Hinton [Maryland]
Richard Waters [Massachusetts]


As for American insularity, one could argue that this list is too
Euro-centric. Where is the discussion of medieval African
or Native
American
ancestry? Where is the discussion of medieval Indian or
Chinese ancestry?
In
some cases the records do not exist. In other cases the
records were so
well
kept there is no need for discussion. I have a friend of
Japanese ancestry
whose ancestors kept the records for 900 years. What is
there to discuss?
It
has all been recorded and does not need to be
re-discovered. As Todd has
pointed out, this newsgroup is what the participants make of it.


Hal Bradley



-----Original Message-----
From: John Brandon [mailto:starbuck95@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:42 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler, CT
William Asfordby, NY
Thomas Brassey, PA
Obadiah Bruen, CT
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus, MA
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Park, CT
Edmund Kempe, VA
Roger Mallory, VA
John Umfreville, CT
John West, VA
John Winslow, MA

Can all of these really be true? I remember you claiming
Maria Johanna
Somerset, as well, and implying you had a line from
George Percy of VA
...





Gjest

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 01:35:02

Dear Tony, John, Hal and others:
I descend from Frances
(Deighton) Williams, twice from possible gateway Joan (Price) Cleeves, Joseph
Bolles, Samuel Appleton and his wife possible gateway Judith ( Everard) Appleton,
possibly from Percival Lowell (especially if Joanna (?Lowell) Gerrish from whom
I descend twice is his daughter, (possibly) Philip Nelson (if Jeremiah Colburn
of Gardiner, Maine was in fact his grandson) (probably) James Cudworth
(lineal ancestor of a Roscie Rowe, born Dearborn, Maine who certainly seems to have
married Joseph Spaulding Jr and moved to Dearborn following their marriage),
and (possibly) Olive (Welbie) Farwell if ancestor Simeon Stone was in fact a
son of Jonathan Stone, a 2nd Great grandson of hers. Simeon and Moses, a known
son of Jonathan appear to have shared ownership of a piece of property in
Waterford, Maine not to mention the murky Boyd connection. Yes, It is ridiculous.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 02:19:02

Dear Ray,
Don`t be sorry, my home state of Maine frequently feels like
an insular country, our current governor in the past year extended a protracted
contract of goods to Cuba. Not exactly on the Feds favorite goverment list.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 19 mai 2006 02:31:02

That's just brilliant!
I wonder what Australia would have answered in light of the oil for food
scandal here with the Australian Wheat Board!
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com
Date: 05/19/06 04:36:32
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: What this list is

As for 'insularity', most Americans usually have ancestors
in several European countries.


Of course they do. But many Americans have no idea where those countries
are.


Last Month, A world-wide survey was conducted by the UN. The only
question asked was ... :

"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the
food shortage in the rest of the world ?"

The survey was a huge failure because:

In Africa they didn't know what "food" means.

In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" means.

In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" means.

In China they didn't know what "opinion" means.

In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" means.

In South America they didn't know what "please" means.

In the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" means.

Regards
Francisco
(Portugal)

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 19 mai 2006 04:08:02

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


| In a message dated 5/18/06 2:33:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
| hw.bradley@verizon.net writes:
|
| << Where is the discussion of medieval Indian or Chinese ancestry? In
| some cases the records do not exist. In other cases the records were so well
| kept there is no need for discussion. >>
|
| You forget my most important criterion.... I can read the source material. I
| dare say 95% of the list readers are able to read English, but maybe only 20%
| or so can read say French or Italian or Spanish. Probably 2 to 5% can read
| Latin. And it probably dwindles much faster after that.
| Will

I can read Spanish, French, Potugese, Italian, Catalan, Latin, German and Greek. 'Though the time away from (practising) each affects the speed with which I do so. (With a decent dictionary, I could add Greek.) I am also studying Hebrew. But I doubt that any new discoveries would be of interest to more than one or two on this list. How 'bout some of the Medieval Rabbinical dynasties? The point is, I think, that one is interested because one can relate, (no pun intended), to the individuals being discussed. Dave Kelley has recently written a pair of articles, (only half published, as yet), that might increase some interest in the Exilarchs; but that is about it. (The Khazars I exclude because of the paucity of information.) Would there really be any interest in a line from The Toltecs or Mayans? How about the Rashtrakutas or Guptas? The Sung?
The list is what the members make it. WE are primarily Europeans, in descent, if not geography. And because of the differences in social structure, The British Isles are going to have a greater share of persons who can trace to 'Brits'. I think that we should see the same from the BeNeLux countries, and Scandinavia, were there more records.
Ford

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 19 mai 2006 04:13:01

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:52 PM
Subject: RE: What this list is - on "insularity"


| "I have a friend of Japanese ancestry whose ancestors kept the records
| for 900 years."
|
| This is such an interesting point. Has anyone encountered scientific,
| analytical vindication for ancient Oriental genealogies? One hears so
| much of their real antiquity, but I've always wondered how it would fare
| under the bright light of empirical scrutiny.
|
| Tony


Another problem with non-European genealogy is that it tends to focus, almost exclusively, on the male-line. Tony, or Don, or Todd, or any of the rest, how far could you trace your male-line ancestry? Not nearly so far as by admitting a woman here or there. And I mean, every step of the way, not just an O'Neil claiming Niall of the Nine Hostages.

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 19 mai 2006 04:23:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


| Dear Hal,
|
| Euro-centric? Thou art jesting...........Anglo-centric, yes, but Euro? I
| would say not, unless you try to say that England IS Europe? :-)
|
| Every now and then I try to raise interest in some continental ancestor,
| because of the intermarriage between England and the continent, continental
| medieval people can be ancestors of the very much cherished and appreciated
| (by me) Gateway Ancestors.
|
| In my opinion, the more is said about the _ancestors, any ancestor_ of
| Gateway Ancestors, the better. As by doing that a knowledge is created,
| supplied, shared, of people in the medieval period and if anyone stumbles
| across one as an ancestor then more ancestors (all in the medieval period)
| can be found.
|
| What I am missing is efforts to find biographical details of medieval
| people. It is great to have dates and place names, but we also need to know
| what they did and in what kind of society they lived. That is why I
| appreciate so much the details Nat Taylor and others supplied.
|
| I think Stewart Baldwins efforts should be much more supported, as he gives
| so much more than just names and dates.
|
| With best wishes
| Leo van de Pas
| Canberra, Australia
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Hal Bradley" <hw.bradley@verizon.net>
| To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
| Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 7:33 AM
| Subject: RE: What this list is - on "insularity"
|
|

Like the CP and SP?
A project that I've planned, but never really followed up, is to compile a list of the Continental wives of the British princes, who would then have brought there ladies with them. Then to follow that with tracing those lines up and down. Some examples, (And I don't have my notes right in front of me, so please excuse any lack of specifics): Sancha de Ayala, the cousin of Anne of Bohemia, the Italian wife of FitzAlan of Arundel.
Ford

Gjest

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 05:34:02

Thursday, 18 May, 2006


Dear JCB,

You wrote:

According to Leportier (Familles Medievals Normandes, 235)Maud was
the daughter of William de Reviers count of Vernon and of Lucy
daughter of William de Tancarville and Maud d'Arques.

J.C.B.Sharp
London


========================

I see the following notes on the FMG website, re:
entries in KSB K-R's "Domesday Descendants" which bear on
the William de Vernon you mentioned. The connection to the
family of William de Tancarville, chamberlain of Normandy
and England, appears solid.

Cheers,

John


URL http://fmg.ac/Projects/Domesday/Desc3.htm

p.659 de Redvers Comes, Ricardus II

"He died without issue in 1193, when his heir was his cousin
William de Vernon."

William de Vernon was Richard's uncle, not his cousin, as
correctly shown on p.768.

Bearman (1994), p.110

Chris Phillips - 11 Feb 2004

______________________________________


p.729 de Tancarville, Willelm

Had issue including "…Lucy, wife of Richard de Vernon". The husband
of Lucy was William de Vernon as correctly reported on p.768. Richard de
Vernon was their son.

Round (1913), p.12

Eldon Olson - 28 Oct 2004

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 19 mai 2006 05:47:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


| I believe (hope I am wrong) that even the Japanese Imperial family tree is
| not too secure as by adoptions the bloodline has been fudged.


The adoptions were of imperial relatives, and recorded as such. Thus they were a 'legal fiction', rather than a 'genealogical fabrication'.



| I for one
| would love to know more about Chinese and Japanese lineages. I have a little
| bit on the present day Japanese Imperial family on my website---any
| additional information greatly appreciated.
| Best wishes
| Leo van de Pas
| Canberra, Australia
|

The questions come in at the 'top' of the pedigree(s). The emperor Ojin, (traditionally, late fourth century BCE), on down, is considered by scholars to be fairly safe ground. Prior to him, not so much. There is a thesis, (http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publicatio ... kch_e.html), that Ojin-tenno was a prince of Paekche, one of the Three Kingdoms of Ancient Korea. The piece was backed up with evidence and augmentation. It is based on archaeology and epigraphy, and is not a Velikovsky-Ruhl-Atlantis type of revisionism.
Also see: http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2352.html; and http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/jp-origine-a.htm, (basically, the same article); and http://www.ease.com/~randyj/rjjingu.htm. A bibliography can be found at: http://www.hawaii.edu/korea/bibliograph ... ations.htm.
I also might recommend:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Oriental_Royalty/, and http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/R ... YALTY.html.
Ford

'Our duty is to be useful, not according to our desires, but according to our powers.'
-Henri Frederic Amiel

'You are not here merely to make a living. You are here to enable the
world to live more amply, with greater vision, and with a finer
spirit of hope and achievement. You are here to enrich the world.
You impoverish yourself if you forget this errand.'
- Woodrow Wilson

'It is common sense to take a method, and to try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.'
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

'Don't judge those who try, and fail. Judge only those who fail to try.'

Tony Hoskins

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 19 mai 2006 06:19:02

"how far could you trace your male-line ancestry?"

Quite true. Long-running continuous male lines are statistically less
numerous. Odds of the game. But, facts are facts, regardless of
cultures. Dearth of zig-zag male female lines being recorded doesn't not
logically lead one to over compensate in acceptance of under-documented
agnate lines.

Tony


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

norenxaq

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av norenxaq » 19 mai 2006 06:34:02

Would there really be any interest in a line from The Toltecs or Mayans? How about the Rashtrakutas or Guptas? The Sung?



or even know who or where some of these were... regardless, I am
interested in all of them




Gjest

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mai 2006 09:47:07

I do have a gentry line in Sweden, which is supposed to have
a distant royal descent (if Elgenstierna's book is correct).
But having only one descent from Edward III is fine.
(1/4 of my ancestry is southeast Asian).

Leslie

CED

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av CED » 19 mai 2006 10:26:33

Douglas Richardson wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/18/06 10:51:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Now, you're disputing if her name was Ellen
Quincy or Ellen de Quincy.

Not more than one week ago, you took me to task for using an "English" proper
name with "de", implying that "de" could only be used with the French or
*Latin* (as you say) versions of the name.

I'm just returning the favor :)

If I corrected you, Will, it was to help you, not to embarass you. If
you thought otherwise, I apologize.

Perhaps you should replay the original post I made in which I allegedly
"took you to task." Then, I might know better what you were talking
about. Also, you need to make clearer the nature of your current
question. I'm still clueless what you really want.

If this helps, the article "de" was used with some English surnames
until about 1400, when it was phased out. Since Ellen de Quincy lived
prior to 1400, her correct surname is "de Quincy."

To the Newsgroup:

I have refrained from participation in the Newsgroup recently in order
not to be irksome; however, since nobody has chosen to correct
Richardson's inartful use of the English language on matters of
language, I must point out that the "de" used in names from languages
of Latin origins is not an "article" as Richardson has stated. It is a
preposition! It seems that he searched for, and did not find, the
right word for the situation. The "de" when used as part of a name is
a "particle" not "article."

CED

DR

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 19 mai 2006 11:22:01

----- Original Message -----
From: <lmahler@att.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: What this list is - on "insularity"


| I do have a gentry line in Sweden, which is supposed to have
| a distant royal descent (if Elgenstierna's book is correct).
| But having only one descent from Edward III is fine.



| (1/4 of my ancestry is southeast Asian).

NOW, THAT MIGHT BE A LITTLE VARIETY. Any traceable pre-1600?

|
| Leslie

Tim Powys-Lybbe

re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 19 mai 2006 11:41:39

In message of 18 May, Therav3@aol.com wrote:


(I had written:)

The new-ish Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has Alice as
the first wife of Richard de Camville and the mother of Gerard.
They say that Millicent was the second wife and the mother of
Richard de Camville who died in 1191.

Should a correction be sent in to ODNB?


========================


Evidently such a correction is needed. Following is a
pedigree which follows the descent of Brattleby, Lincs. from the
Domesday tenant Colswein, through Nichole de la Haye, to Nichole's
granddaughter Idoine de Camville (wife of Sir William Longespee).
This is based in large part on the work of I. J. Sanders and
K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, as noted.

<snip>

1.1.1.1.1 Nicole de la Haye[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1230[8]

<snip>

Spouse: Gerard de Camville[1]
Birth: ca 1150
Death: 1214[8]
Father: Richard de Camville (-ca1176)
Mother: Millicent of Rethel (ca1110-)
Marr: bef 1185[8]

Children: Richard (-<1230)


But DD (Domesday Descendants) says, p. 378, that Millicent the second
wife of Richard de Camville was the mother of Richard II de Camville.
This confirms what is in ODNB.

For Richard I de Camville, pp. 378-9, DD gives his two wives and three
children but does not say which wife was mother to which child, though
it does say that Alice was the first wife and Millicent the second.
Gerard was Richard I's successor so it sounds as if he was the son of
Alice, particularly as Richard II is the only son given above to
Millicent.

I cannot find anything in Sanders' English Baronies to help as the
part-fee of Brattleby did not go through Gerard de Camville's parents.

Can you give a closer fix on the document that would clarify that Gerard
was the son of Millcent?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John P. Ravilious

Re: Maud de Vernon, wife of Richard de la Haye

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 19 mai 2006 12:10:15

Dear Tim,

I have to leave for an extended period, and will post more
extended details later.

But, Gerard had a brother (evidently younger) Richard, re: whom I
have:


of Benham, co. Berks.

witness to charter of his brother 'Gerard de Camvilla' dated 1176-83,
addressed to Richard bishop of Chester confirming gift of their father
Richard to the monks of St. Mary of Cumba, ca. 1176-83 - A2A,
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194

" Ricardus de Camuill' ", granted a charter to Richard Pipard restoring
land in Stanton Harcourt, co. Oxon. which his grandfather Sir Leger had
held by the gift of Richard de Camville and Milicent his wife (parents
of Richard de Camville), dated at Stanton (est. 1176-1191, but before
1191 when on crusade) [Loyd p. 29, No. 42]

companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; with Robert de Sable,
commander of the main flotilla (63 ships) sailing to Marseilles to
embark Richard I for the crusade (July 1190)
governor [Justiciar] of the island of Cyprus with Robert de Thornham
following its conquest, June 1191,
died in Palestine according to sources; in Cyprus according to
Runciman, given his administration there

cf. Runciman, Hist. of the Crusades
J. Gillingham, Richard I (Yale Eng. Monarchs series)

=====================================
Re: Gerard de Camville, see the DNB article there. The details
I show at present:


lord of Camville

Charter of Gerard de Camvilla dated 1176-83, addressed to Richard
bishop of Chester, confirming to God and St. Mary of Cumba and the
monks of the Cistercian order there serving God, the gift which his
father Richard de Camvilla made to the said abbey, namely the whole
land of Smita to found an abbey of the Cistercian order, with demesne
and other appurtenances in wood and plain, in ways and paths, in land
and water, in meadows and pastures, and in free alms quit from all
earthly service and secular exactions.
Witnesses: Walter de Camvilla, William de Camvill', Richard de
Camvill' his brothers, John de Curci, Simon de Blossevilla. '
[ Seal on tag: circular, brown, c. 2¾ ins. diameter. A ?lion
passant.
Note : For date and seal: see Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals,
p. 8.] - A2A, Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of
Stivichall [DR10/1 - DR10/467] , Combe alias Smite: DR10/194

sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1189, and again 1199-1205

according to Inq.p.m. (for later tenant), he 'intruded upon the manor'
of Benham, co. Berks. following the death of his brother Richard [the
manor then escheating to the crown, with Hugh Wake being enfeoffed by
King Richard I]

a supporter of John, count of Mortain in the absence of Richard:
' Longchamp [William, bp of Ely and regent] in 1191 removed him
from the shrievalty [of Lincolnshire], and attempted to reduce
Lincoln Castle; but it was stoutly defended by Nicholaa,
Camville himself being with John until the fall of Nottingham and
Tickhill compelled Longchamp to raise the siege. Camville was
excommunicated the same year. On Richard's return in 1194
he was deprived of the wardenship of Lincoln Castle and the
shrievalty of the county, and was arraigned by Longchamp
at Nottingham on a charge of harbouring robbers and
treating the king's writ with contempt. His estates were
forfeited, but he recovered them on payment of a fine of
2,000 marks. His wife also paid a fine of 200 marks...
On the accession of John, Camville was reappointed
warden of Lincoln Castle and sheriff of the county, and
purchased from the king for 1,000 marks the lands of
Thomas de Verdun and the wardship of his widow, with
liberty to marry her to his son Richard. ' [DNB p. 856]

recorded as Sheriff of Lincolnshire, 1200-01:
' 302. Lincolnshire:- Gerard de Canville (Hubert fitz Richard for
him) renders his accunt. ' [Bain I:48, cites Pipe Roll 2 John, Rot. 6]

also shown by Anthony Wagner, pedigree of 'English Ancestors of Edward
IV'
first husband of Nichola de la Haye (cf. CP IV:118, sub Deincourt)

had a charter for a market at Stoney Middleton, co. Oxon:
' (Grant: other) gr 1201, by K John to Gerard de Camville (VCH
Oxfordshire, vi, p. 245). '

cf. Painter, p. 84

====================================

More to follow; I think the problem is, too many Richards (de
Camville).

Cheers,

John



Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 18 May, Therav3@aol.com wrote:


(I had written:)

The new-ish Oxford Dictionary of National Biography has Alice as
the first wife of Richard de Camville and the mother of Gerard.
They say that Millicent was the second wife and the mother of
Richard de Camville who died in 1191.

Should a correction be sent in to ODNB?


=======================

Evidently such a correction is needed. Following is a
pedigree which follows the descent of Brattleby, Lincs. from the
Domesday tenant Colswein, through Nichole de la Haye, to Nichole's
granddaughter Idoine de Camville (wife of Sir William Longespee).
This is based in large part on the work of I. J. Sanders and
K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, as noted.

snip

1.1.1.1.1 Nicole de la Haye[1]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1230[8]

snip

Spouse: Gerard de Camville[1]
Birth: ca 1150
Death: 1214[8]
Father: Richard de Camville (-ca1176)
Mother: Millicent of Rethel (ca1110-)
Marr: bef 1185[8]

Children: Richard (-<1230)


But DD (Domesday Descendants) says, p. 378, that Millicent the second
wife of Richard de Camville was the mother of Richard II de Camville.
This confirms what is in ODNB.

For Richard I de Camville, pp. 378-9, DD gives his two wives and three
children but does not say which wife was mother to which child, though
it does say that Alice was the first wife and Millicent the second.
Gerard was Richard I's successor so it sounds as if he was the son of
Alice, particularly as Richard II is the only son given above to
Millicent.

I cannot find anything in Sanders' English Baronies to help as the
part-fee of Brattleby did not go through Gerard de Camville's parents.

Can you give a closer fix on the document that would clarify that Gerard
was the son of Millcent?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John Brandon

Re: What this list is - on "insularity"

Legg inn av John Brandon » 19 mai 2006 12:25:19

But having only one descent from Edward III is fine.

I'll say! <g>

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