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Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

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Gjest

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2006 23:28:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 1:36:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< It appears that Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, actually had two wives. He
married first before 6 July 1237, _____, daughter of Llywelyn ap
Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales. >>

I want to remind Douglas of what he said a year ago: "Earl Malcolm was
clearly of age when his uncle died in 1228, and there is no reason to suppose that
he did not marry immediately at that point to Llywelyn's daughter."

Will

Gjest

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2006 23:29:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 10:02:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cboyer3154@yahoo.com writes:

<< Another daughter, Helen, is listed in The Complete Peerage [5:373 and
8:401-403] and Balfour's Scots Peerage [4:8-10 and 5:576-578]; her mother has
not been identified and she is not listed by Bartrum.
Helen married first, Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, who d. 1266, and second,
Donald, Earl of Mar. >>

I would like to remind the list, that the above is in dispute.
An alternate interpretation of the evidence, is that Malcolm the Earl of Fife
had two wives. One possibly called "Susannah" was the daughter of Llewelyn
and Joan and the mother of the his heir Colbron.

The second wife, named Ellen (Helen) who parentage has not been determined,
but who lived until at least Feb 1294/5 is the one who married secondly to
Donald, 6th Earl of Mar (d abt 25/30 Jul 1297).

The archives contain about 100 messages about this alternate reconstruction :)

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 16 mai 2006 23:53:56

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

I would like to remind the list, that the above is in dispute.
An alternate interpretation of the evidence, is that Malcolm the Earl of Fife
had two wives. One possibly called "Susannah" was the daughter of Llewelyn
and Joan and the mother of the his heir Colbron.

Dear Will ~

I don't believe there can be any dispute that Earl Malcolm was survived
by a much younger second wife, Ellen. As I recall, Scots Peerage
indicates that Ellen's 2nd husband, Donald, Earl of Mar, was knighted
about the same time as Earl Malcolm's son and heir, Colban. This is
strong evidence that Ellen was the same approximate age as Colban, and
not likely to have been his mother. Also, Scots Peerage shows that
Ellen was the mother of five children by her second husband, Earl
Donald, in spite of the fact that her first husband, Earl Malcolm
(Colban's father), was advanced in years at his death in 1266.

It is Mr. MacEwen's theory that Earl Malcolm's first wife, who was the
daughter of Prince Llywelyn, may be the same person as Llywelyn's
legitimate daughter, Susanna. He could well be correct. As John
Ravilious can attest, Mr. MacEwen has an excellent track record on such
things.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 00:03:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 2:36:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< Quite agree. And if the argument is "well, royals have medieval
pedigrees" and "early colonial Americans have medieval pedigrees", then
so does everybody, in the end. >>

That's an argumentative position. While everybody has medieval pedigrees,
not everybody has pedigrees which touch upon known medieval lines. There is a
vast difference between discussing persons who have known medieval extensions,
and merely discussing people *in order to try to create* medieval extensions.

Will

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 00:04:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 2:36:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< But I would be interested in discussions on
18th-19th century Polish and Ukrainian ancestry, or Irish (or anywhere
else, come to that!) >>

But there are at least 5 thousand lists at rootsweb.
Why try to change this one, instead of just subscribing to one that is more
relevant?
Will

Douglas Richardson

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 mai 2006 00:04:11

Chris Dickinson wrote:

I've never really understood why some people find 'Early Modern' a confusing
term, but then I taught the subject for 15 years - at least my students
weren't confused (I hope)!

If you would be so kind, could you please post a definition of the
"Early Modern era" for the newsgroup. I suspect some posters are not
familiar with this term.

DR

JTC

Re: Sonne-in-Law and Now-Wife

Legg inn av JTC » 17 mai 2006 00:18:17

Not to bring the dead to life, but I can fill in the blanks in the
above. The deed was recorded 10 October 1655. Fleet's abstract does
not inlcude a note that John Carter was brother to Thomas.

The other time Diana Skipwith used her maiden name was on the deed
MichaelAnne suggested was fraudulent, made 17 November 1655, rec. 1
March 1658; Fleet cites 3 deeds in this series, the deed Carter &
Skipwith witnessed being the middle, and appends a note (in Vol. 1 of
the reprint of Beverley Fleets "Virginia Colonial Abstracts," GPC 1988
p. 128) as follows:

"[Note: The above entries are not altogether clear to me, however the
aristocratic Col. Carter and the still more elegant Skipwith must have
known what they were doing. The signature shown as Bruce is difficult
to read. It well may be another name. B.F.]"

There is no allegation of fraud here, or even a hint of it. Possibly
MichaelAnne was drawing upon memory?

On page 158 of Fleet, there is an abstract of a deed made 25 July 1663,
witnessed by Edward and Diana Dale; Sussanah Merryman, wife of Rich.
Merryman, did not have her relinquishment of dower recorded until 1
June 1666.

JTC

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 17 mai 2006 00:22:56

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/16/06 2:36:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

Quite agree. And if the argument is "well, royals have medieval
pedigrees" and "early colonial Americans have medieval pedigrees", then
so does everybody, in the end.

That's an argumentative position. While everybody has medieval pedigrees,
not everybody has pedigrees which touch upon known medieval lines. There is a
vast difference between discussing persons who have known medieval extensions,
and merely discussing people *in order to try to create* medieval extensions.

Indeed, there is, but isn't the latter mostly the case on this newsgroup?

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 17 mai 2006 00:25:13

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/16/06 2:36:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

But I would be interested in discussions on
18th-19th century Polish and Ukrainian ancestry, or Irish (or anywhere
else, come to that!)

But there are at least 5 thousand lists at rootsweb.
Why try to change this one, instead of just subscribing to one that is more
relevant?
Will


Good point. But my point is that if Americans can discuss their 17th
century British ancestry here, then why can't the British discuss their
17th century ancestry here? (or Polish, Irish, Dutch, Spanish, etc.)

Gjest

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 00:28:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 1:36:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< Spouse: Margaret de Beaumont
Death: 12 Jan 1234[1]
Father: Robert de Beaumont, E of Leicester (-1190)
Mother: Petronilla de Grandmesnil (-1212) >>

Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Campbell", pg 188-193
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962

States her death date as 12 Jan 1235/6

Will Johnson

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 17 mai 2006 00:33:18

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Chris Dickinson wrote:


I've never really understood why some people find 'Early Modern' a confusing
term, but then I taught the subject for 15 years - at least my students
weren't confused (I hope)!


If you would be so kind, could you please post a definition of the
"Early Modern era" for the newsgroup. I suspect some posters are not
familiar with this term.

Broadly, 1450-1720. Some define the period as later than that.

Gjest

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 00:34:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 1:36:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< received conveyance of Earldom of Lincoln from brother, Ranulf, Earl
of Chester, with confirmation by Henry III, 1232

her inheritance (or further conveyance from her brother) included the
castle and manor of Bolingbroke (Sanders, p. 18)

Spouse: Hawise of Chester[1] >>

Might I then call her the Countess of Lincoln ?
And if so over what years?
Thanks
Will

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 17 mai 2006 00:37:54

Renia wrote:

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Chris Dickinson wrote:


I've never really understood why some people find 'Early Modern' a
confusing
term, but then I taught the subject for 15 years - at least my students
weren't confused (I hope)!



If you would be so kind, could you please post a definition of the
"Early Modern era" for the newsgroup. I suspect some posters are not
familiar with this term.


Broadly, 1450-1720. Some define the period as later than that.

I should perhaps add that for genealogical purposes, it might be seen as
after the beginning of the establishment of parish registers in 1538 in
England. Unfortunatly, few survive from that period. Many start from the
early 17th century and some even a century later than that.

Vickie Elam White

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 17 mai 2006 00:43:37

Renia,

I dunno, I didn't write the FAQ.


Vickie Elam White

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:e4dg2p$7a7$1@mouse.otenet.gr...
Vickie Elam White wrote:
Tim,

No, I'm saying that the line is a royal line and thus allowed per the
FAQ.


Why? Unless it's a medieval royal line, I see no relevance.

Vickie Elam White

Re: Sonne-in-Law and Now-Wife

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 17 mai 2006 00:43:37

Jeff,

Thank you. I assume Edward Dale was the clerk who recorded the deed?

In any case, this is one instance that could perhaps be used to show that
Diana wasn't married to Edward Dale yet. True, it does involve the Carters.
So, all the circumstances involving this transaction should be fully
examined. But, it would be great if it could be shown to have not a hint of
fraud about it. :-)


Vickie Elam White

"JTC" <jeffchip9@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147821497.022223.233050@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Not to bring the dead to life, but I can fill in the blanks in the
above. The deed was recorded 10 October 1655. Fleet's abstract does
not inlcude a note that John Carter was brother to Thomas.

The other time Diana Skipwith used her maiden name was on the deed
MichaelAnne suggested was fraudulent, made 17 November 1655, rec. 1
March 1658; Fleet cites 3 deeds in this series, the deed Carter &
Skipwith witnessed being the middle, and appends a note (in Vol. 1 of
the reprint of Beverley Fleets "Virginia Colonial Abstracts," GPC 1988
p. 128) as follows:

"[Note: The above entries are not altogether clear to me, however the
aristocratic Col. Carter and the still more elegant Skipwith must have
known what they were doing. The signature shown as Bruce is difficult
to read. It well may be another name. B.F.]"

There is no allegation of fraud here, or even a hint of it. Possibly
MichaelAnne was drawing upon memory?

On page 158 of Fleet, there is an abstract of a deed made 25 July 1663,
witnessed by Edward and Diana Dale; Sussanah Merryman, wife of Rich.
Merryman, did not have her relinquishment of dower recorded until 1
June 1666.

JTC

Gjest

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 00:44:01

In a message dated 5/16/06 1:36:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< Spouse: Hawise of Chester[1]
Death: aft 22 Nov 1232[7],[8]
Father: Hugh 'Kevelioc', E of Chester (1147-1181)
Mother: Bertrada de Montfort (ca1154-1227) >>

Douglas Richardson, in a post here, on 10/23/05 states that Hawise died in
1243
Will Johnson

Tony Hoskins

Re: Frangipani

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 17 mai 2006 00:46:02

Perhaps this identification might be found in Daniel MacGregor's
_Brooke's Book_. Haven't a copy myself, but know one can be found at
Chicago's Newberry Library.

Tony Hoskins

"Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@cox.net> 05/16/06 03:45PM

I have been having tremendous difficulty finding anything on

Giovanna di Carlo Frangipani di Grumo, the wife of Ferrante Orsini, D.
Gravina, ob. 1660, and mother of His Holiness, Benedetto XIII,
(1724-1730), and of Domenico Orsini, D. Gravina, ob. 1705, (through whom
she is ancestral to (Christa) Brooke (Camilla) Shields, n. 1965.
I realize that this is post-1600, but it rapidly ascends into the
group's bailiwick, and deals with a gateway ancestor, (Marina Torlonia
1916-1960, [m. 2, New York City, Francis Xavier Shields, ob. 1975 -
ironically, a tennis-pro.]). As an aside, her brother married a
daughter of Alfonso XIII.
Any help would be greatly and much appreciated.
Respectfully,
Ford

Douglas Richardson

Re: Sonne-in-Law and Now-Wife

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 mai 2006 00:50:12

My comments are interspersed. DR

JTC wrote:

< The proof that Diana Skipwith wasn't Katherine's mother is the fact
that Diana used her < maiden name on those two deeds in 1655.
Therefore Dale has an earlier wife.

Ummm .... if you were right, then we wouldn't be having this
discussion, now would we? When examining evidence, it is important
that one look at ALL of the available evidence, not just one set of
documents.

< It doesn't bother you that from 1655 to 1695 Diana Dale never used
her maiden name
< again?

You apparently don't seem to understand why a married woman of gentry
birth would want to use her maiden name, during or after her marriage.

< If you stake your reputation on tripe like this, you're going to find
< that your books are treated like tripe, too.

No need for you to be rude and insulting.

< I expect more from the author of such weighty tomes than a demand
that his readers
< prove him wrong.

You have no evidence that Edward Dale had another wife, I suggest you
leave it at that.

< Since when am I supposed to be proving you wrong? You're supposed to
be
< proving you're right! You don't have a single piece of evidence that
< Diana Dale was the mother of Katherine, do you?

I posted ten different reasons why I thought Diana Skipwith was the
mother of all three Dale children. I suggest you go back and read the
archives. If I had to do it again, I probably would support nine of
the ten reasons.

Enough for now.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Frangipani

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 17 mai 2006 00:56:02

Thanks, Tony. Your reply arrived the minute before my post did. Ain't time grand?

There once was a woman from Dwight,
Who could travel much faster than light.
She started on day,
In a relative way,
And returned on the previous night!

Any way, what I am seeking is Giovanna's ancestry, beyond her father, D. Carlo. Her ma would also be helpful.
Ford

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Frangipani


| Perhaps this identification might be found in Daniel MacGregor's
| _Brooke's Book_. Haven't a copy myself, but know one can be found at
| Chicago's Newberry Library.
|
| Tony Hoskins
|
| >>> "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@cox.net> 05/16/06 03:45PM
| >>>
| I have been having tremendous difficulty finding anything on
| Giovanna di Carlo Frangipani di Grumo, the wife of Ferrante Orsini, D.
| Gravina, ob. 1660, and mother of His Holiness, Benedetto XIII,
| (1724-1730), and of Domenico Orsini, D. Gravina, ob. 1705, (through whom
| she is ancestral to (Christa) Brooke (Camilla) Shields, n. 1965.
| I realize that this is post-1600, but it rapidly ascends into the
| group's bailiwick, and deals with a gateway ancestor, (Marina Torlonia
| 1916-1960, [m. 2, New York City, Francis Xavier Shields, ob. 1975 -
| ironically, a tennis-pro.]). As an aside, her brother married a
| daughter of Alfonso XIII.
| Any help would be greatly and much appreciated.
| Respectfully,
| Ford
|

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 17 mai 2006 01:00:00

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/16/06 4:36:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

Good point. But my point is that if Americans can discuss their 17th
century British ancestry here, then why can't the British discuss their
17th century ancestry here? (or Polish, Irish, Dutch, Spanish, etc.)

I don't see any handcuffs in my drawer that would fit you. So go ahead.
I just doubt many people would jump into the discussion unless it was
relevant to something they were interested in themselves.
Will


Quite. Which is why you don't see so many Europeans discussing US
gateway ancestry.

Chris Dickinson

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 17 mai 2006 01:32:58

Douglas Richardson wrote:


If you would be so kind, could you please post a definition of the
"Early Modern era" for the newsgroup. I suspect some posters are not
familiar with this term.

'Early Modern' is traditionally used to describe a period in European
(including British) history from the second half of the sixteenth
century to the first half of the eighteenth century (or slightly beyond).
The term is also applied to other cultures that display similar
characteristics at different times.

What are the characteristics? Anything that is modern rather than medieval,
so long as not a creation of a modern mass industrialised society.

So, typically, a historian would say that a state is 'Early Modern' when it
has new kingship (Edward IV/Henry VII, Ferdinand & Isabella, Maximilian I,
Louis XI), national or protestant churches, printing press, non-feudal ways
of waging war, middle-class literacy, secular culture, urban expansion,
etc.; but it's gone past Early Modern into Modern when Industrialisation
changes the scale and population blows up, modern classes emerge, transport
whizzes, wars get mechanised.

[and, of course, when the French & American Revolutions change our thinking
fundamentally]

In genealogy, I would think that a corresponding period would be the
beginning of parish registers (say, 1540s in England) up to, but not
including, national censuses and BMD certificates (say, 1830s in England).

Chris

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 01:57:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 4:36:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< > and merely discussing people *in order to try to create* medieval
extensions.

Indeed, there is, but isn't the latter mostly the case on this newsgroup? >>

Not at all. Not to my mind.
I think everyone I've discussed has known, published, medieval lines. I
merely add details here and there as I come across them, and if they seem
interesting to me.
Will

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 02:00:03

In a message dated 5/16/06 4:36:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< Good point. But my point is that if Americans can discuss their 17th
century British ancestry here, then why can't the British discuss their
17th century ancestry here? (or Polish, Irish, Dutch, Spanish, etc.) >>

I don't see any handcuffs in my drawer that would fit you. So go ahead.
I just doubt many people would jump into the discussion unless it was
relevant to something they were interested in themselves.
Will

Gjest

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 02:03:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 4:05:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< I don't believe there can be any dispute that Earl Malcolm was survived
by a much younger second wife, Ellen. >>

And I am not disputing this newer theory. In fact I agree with it. My
database shows the situation as you have stated it.
Will

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 17 mai 2006 02:07:03

----- Original Message -----
From: "Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: What this list is


| Douglas Richardson wrote:
|
| > Chris Dickinson wrote:

| > If you would be so kind, could you please post a definition of the
| > "Early Modern era" for the newsgroup. I suspect some posters are not
| > familiar with this term.
|
| Broadly, 1450-1720. Some define the period as later than that.

When I was in graduate school, I had to take 'Early Modern' as my minor area of study, (the chief being Medieval), because I had taken too many Ancient History courses, as an undergrad., to leave enough to build a minor.
Early Modern dated from 1500 or 1600, (depending on when a particular scholar terminated the Renaissance, which was either part of the Middle Ages, or on its own), until, for convenience' sake, the French Revolution - which, for greater convenience' ske, we could then extend to 1800.
Of course, one could go further. The term. is rather arbitrary. Arguments could be made for years right up to the assassination of HRIH Archduke Fraz Ferdinand. 1900 for convenience' sake.
Ford

Kristie Thompson

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Kristie Thompson » 17 mai 2006 02:14:01

When I was in Kalamazoo last month, there was a discussion on Medieval
history - including the early Tudors (1500s). So, there is still much to
debate.
Kristie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: What this list is


Renia wrote:

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Chris Dickinson wrote:


I've never really understood why some people find 'Early Modern' a
confusing
term, but then I taught the subject for 15 years - at least my students
weren't confused (I hope)!



If you would be so kind, could you please post a definition of the
"Early Modern era" for the newsgroup. I suspect some posters are not
familiar with this term.


Broadly, 1450-1720. Some define the period as later than that.

I should perhaps add that for genealogical purposes, it might be seen as
after the beginning of the establishment of parish registers in 1538 in
England. Unfortunatly, few survive from that period. Many start from the
early 17th century and some even a century later than that.

Brent Miller

Re: Frangipani

Legg inn av Brent Miller » 17 mai 2006 02:22:15

See:
http://www.sardimpex.com/del%20Tufo/DEL ... AVELLO.htm

Towards the end it shows Fulvia, dau. of Francesco († 12 Apr 1644), 3rd
Barone di Vallata, m. Carlo Frangipani della Tolfa, 2nd Duca di Grumo.


""Ford Mommaerts-Browne"" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net> wrote in message
news:032801c6793c$eb498360$5c3afc18@om.cox.net...
Thanks, Tony. Your reply arrived the minute before my post did. Ain't
time grand?

There once was a woman from Dwight,
Who could travel much faster than light.
She started on day,
In a relative way,
And returned on the previous night!

Any way, what I am seeking is Giovanna's ancestry, beyond her father, D.
Carlo. Her ma would also be helpful.
Ford

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Frangipani


| Perhaps this identification might be found in Daniel MacGregor's
| _Brooke's Book_. Haven't a copy myself, but know one can be found at
| Chicago's Newberry Library.
|
| Tony Hoskins
|
| >>> "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@cox.net> 05/16/06 03:45PM
|
| I have been having tremendous difficulty finding anything on
| Giovanna di Carlo Frangipani di Grumo, the wife of Ferrante Orsini, D.
| Gravina, ob. 1660, and mother of His Holiness, Benedetto XIII,
| (1724-1730), and of Domenico Orsini, D. Gravina, ob. 1705, (through whom
| she is ancestral to (Christa) Brooke (Camilla) Shields, n. 1965.
| I realize that this is post-1600, but it rapidly ascends into the
| group's bailiwick, and deals with a gateway ancestor, (Marina Torlonia
| 1916-1960, [m. 2, New York City, Francis Xavier Shields, ob. 1975 -
| ironically, a tennis-pro.]). As an aside, her brother married a
| daughter of Alfonso XIII.
| Any help would be greatly and much appreciated.
| Respectfully,
| Ford
|

Gjest

Re: Contemporary letters re the murder of Henry of Cornwall,

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 02:47:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 3:06:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< The deceased Henry of Cornwall, however, was
the son of Richard's first marriage; from a quick glance, the closest
relationship between him and Philip was that of 4th cousins, via
Henry's Courtenay descent. >>

Could you explain this descent more explicitely? I'm not seeing Philip the
3rd as a Courteney yet...
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Contemporary letters re the murder of Henry of Cornwall,

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 02:57:01

In a message dated 5/16/06 3:50:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Richard, King of the Romans, Earl of Cornwall, and King Philippe III of
France, were related in the 2nd and 4th degrees of kindred (or if you
prefer first cousins twice removed), by virtue of their common descent
from King Henry II of England, as charted below. >>

They also both descend from Humbert de Savoy
Will

Gjest

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 03:17:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 11:24:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:

<< 1.4.3.1.1. Sir Henry of Westwick occ 1199 and 1220
1.4.3.1.1.1. Sir William of Westwick = Cecilia de Sandford d. 1230
1.4.3.1.1.1.1. Sir William moity of Westwick was in Ireland in 1257, d. 1278
1.4.3.1.1.1.1.1. William d. a minor, 1290
1.4.3.1.1.1.1.2. John = Isabella, sold Gorhambury to Alicia Countess of
Oxford (niece of Cecilia Sandford) for her son, Alphonse de Veer, 1320[a] >>

I have two comments.
1) We have already established that Alice de Basset must have been born
1190/5. If her daughter Cecelia died in 1230 after giving birth, than that puts a
narrow range of birthyears on Cecelia and William de Westwick her son.
Cecelia 1204/17 and William 1217/30. That could prove useful for identifying other
documents related to them.
2) If "1320" is supposed to be the date Gorhambury was puchased by Alicia,
then there's a problem since Alice de Saunford died "abt 7 Sep 1312".

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 03:25:03

In a message dated 5/16/06 12:06:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< > a. Gorhambury escheated to crown 1388, Abbot St. Albans
repurchased revision 1393, granted by Henry VIII to J.
Rowlatt who sold it to Sir Nicholas Bacon 1563, Passed to
Sir Harbottle Grimston 1652.

The Chalmer's Biographical Dictionary entry on Sir Nathaniel Bacon, KB
(painter) gets it wrong that he was the son of the lord keeper, being rather, per
the old DNB, his nephew. But does add that Gorhambury was the lord keeper's
seat.
Will

Gjest

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 03:43:02

Something odd about Gorhambury...

Nicholas Bacon, Keeper of the Great Seal, died 20 Feb 1578/9 at York House,
London. His property at Gorhambury did not pass to any of his eldest three
sons or daughter by his first marriage but rather to the eldest son by his
*second* marriage to Anne Cooke.

Why?

Then when the eldest son of that marriage, Anthony Bacon (who was 20 or 21 at
his fathers death), himself d.s.p. 1601, the property next came to his
brother Francis Bacon, Lord High Chancellor.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 03:59:04

In a message dated 5/16/06 1:14:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gregv.ma@rcn.com
writes:

<< 15. William Faunt "purchased Foston; died there 4 Sept 1559, age 63.
Married (1) Anne Fielding. No
issue. Married (2) Jane, widow of Nicholas Purefoy Esq., but by
birth the daughter of George
Vincent of Peckleton. Jane died 1585, age 74.
[The Pedigrees of Purefoy and Vincent both confirm this] >>

No don't stop there!
This George Vincent of Peckleton to daughter Jane (Vincent) Faunt of Foston

And then maybe their son Anthony Faunt of Foston?
If Anthony is a son of William then William would get a Cecil number of 7
That interests me.
Anyone know?

Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: William Faunt descendents

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 04:49:02

"Anecdotes of the Aristocracy", Bernard Burke continues this line now
connected from William Faunt/Jane Vincent to their son Anthony Faunt which Burke
calls "of Fauston" instead of Foston (perhaps a search of A2A on this variant will
yield something new).

Anthony Faunt had at least two daughters
Barbara married Henry Harpur of Normanton (http://www.stirnet.com)
Mabel married Sir Henry Hastings (Knighted 1603) as per "Anecdotes"

This Henry Hastings son of Sir Edward Hastings and Barbara Devereux, eldest
daughter of William Devereux, Knt of Mirevale Abbey, Warwick.

Will Johnson

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 17 mai 2006 04:51:59

Douglas Richardson wrote:

It is Mr. MacEwen's theory that Earl Malcolm's first wife, who was the
daughter of Prince Llywelyn, may be the same person as Llywelyn's
legitimate daughter, Susanna. He could well be correct.

Is there any basis for this other than that "Susanna afterwards
disappears from the English records"?

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 17 mai 2006 05:07:29

Renia wrote:
Good point. But my point is that if Americans can discuss their 17th
century British ancestry here, then why can't the British discuss their
17th century ancestry here? (or Polish, Irish, Dutch, Spanish, etc.)

I don't recall anyone saying they couldn't - certainly they have at
times. 1600 was intended to be a fuzzy number.

taf

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 06:03:39

John Brandon wrote:
I think it's best that the group continue "as is," with people simply
ignoring the parts that don't interest them. Discussion of gateway
ancestors *is* certainly allowed in this newsgroup as currently
established. I post here because it seems to be read by a large number
of people who publish in the American genealogical mags (hence my ideas
may get a fair amount of exposure).


Its going to continue, despite their complaints.
If people cant ignore postings they dont like, its their own fault.

I should mention that the marriage of Lionel Chute is going to be
published in NEHGR soon (by someone else).
Also, the next Great Migration volume is going to be out later this
year,
and it will include your information about James Matthews of Yarmouth,
Mass.

Leslie

Gjest

Re: The Hoo inheritence of William Boleyn

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 06:15:03

In a message dated 5/13/06 8:16:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
athenae1@bellsouth.net writes:

<< FILE - Release by feofee - ref. SAS/G43/9 - date: 12 Jan 1495 [from Scope
and Content] The manors of South Burstow and Hedgecourt in Surrey, which RL
[Richard Lewknor](with Thomas Hoo, esq, William Hopton, clerk and John
Bysshe, gent, now dead) had by grant of WG [William Gage] >>

I wonder if this "now dead" applies to everyone in the parenthesis?
I would say that this Thomas Hoo, esq must be
Thomas Hoo "the younger" who d.s.p. or d.s.p.m. 8 Oct 1486

The manor of Burstow is supposed to have come to Thomas Sinclair of Aston
Clinton who d 6 May 1434, leaving three minor daughters and a young widow.

Next Burstow was supposed to have gone to Sir John Gage and his wife Alianor
Sinclair, one of these daughters.
So apparently it then descended to their son William Gage by 12 Jan 1495.
This William died between 16 Feb and 24 Oct 1497 leaving a son and heir (?) John
Gage of West Firle who, in 1502 is called "John Gage of Burstow"

Then by 1539/40 I find the "first court of Edward Gage and wife of Burstow"
so evidently it was settled on her ? Or their marriage or however you express
it.

I don't know how Thomas Sinclair got the Manor of Burstow, but perhaps
finding it earlier might tell us something about his ancestry (or his wife's).

Will

Gjest

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 06:17:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 9:06:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< Is there any basis for this other than that "Susanna afterwards
disappears from the English records"? >>

Date: 4/20/05 12:46:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: royalancestry@msn.com (Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

There are two references to Earl Malcolm's first wife, the daughter of
Llywelyn, neither of which mention her given name:
l. Stephenson, Chronica de Mailros [Chronicle of Melrose] (1835): 142 (wife
of Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife, identified as daughter of Llywelyn, Prince of
North Wales).
2. Innes, Carte Monialium de Northberwic (1847): 16-17 (document dated 6 July
1237 mentions "Maurice, servant of the Countess of Fife").

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 mai 2006 07:01:23

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/16/06 11:24:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:

1.4.3.1.1. Sir Henry of Westwick occ 1199 and 1220
1.4.3.1.1.1. Sir William of Westwick = Cecilia de Sandford d. 1230
1.4.3.1.1.1.1. Sir William moity of Westwick was in Ireland in 1257, d. 1278
1.4.3.1.1.1.1.1. William d. a minor, 1290
1.4.3.1.1.1.1.2. John = Isabella, sold Gorhambury to Alicia Countess of
Oxford (niece of Cecilia Sandford) for her son, Alphonse de Veer, 1320[a]

I have two comments.
1) We have already established that Alice de Basset must have been born
1190/5. If her daughter Cecelia died in 1230 after giving birth, than that puts a
narrow range of birthyears on Cecelia and William de Westwick her son.
Cecelia 1204/17 and William 1217/30. That could prove useful for identifying other
documents related to them.
2) If "1320" is supposed to be the date Gorhambury was puchased by Alicia,
then there's a problem since Alice de Saunford died "abt 7 Sep 1312".

Will Johnson

Dear Will and Ginny ~

It is incorrect to refer to "Alice de Basset." She would be plain
"Alice Basset" with no "de." As for your "Isabella," "Alicia," and
"Cecilia," they are.the Latin forms of Isabel, Alice, and Cecily
respectively.

DR

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 17 mai 2006 07:11:14

Chris Dickinson wrote:

In genealogy, I would think that a corresponding period would be the
beginning of parish registers (say, 1540s in England) up to, but not
including, national censuses and BMD certificates (say, 1830s in England).

I agree. It's unfortunate that there isn't a newsgroup (not mailing
list) to cover this period. Soc.genealogy.britain seems to concentrate
on post-census genealogy and works well for genealogical newbies.
(Having said that, I haven't been there for a while.)

To add to this, there are plenty of Americans (Canadians, Australians,
etc) whose ancestors left Britain far later than the 17th century. They
don't seem to be covered by a newsgroup either.

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 17 mai 2006 07:13:27

lmahler@att.net wrote:

John Brandon wrote:

I think it's best that the group continue "as is," with people simply
ignoring the parts that don't interest them. Discussion of gateway
ancestors *is* certainly allowed in this newsgroup as currently
established. I post here because it seems to be read by a large number
of people who publish in the American genealogical mags (hence my ideas
may get a fair amount of exposure).



Its going to continue, despite their complaints.
If people cant ignore postings they dont like, its their own fault.

It's not a complaint. It's a discussion. And it's nothing to do with
being "our fault". Personally, I've been ignoring such postings for years.

Louise Staley

Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 17 mai 2006 08:40:43

Yes. Anthony Faunt who married Elizabeth Noel was the son of William
Faunt according to VCH Leics, Vol 5. pp 193-213.

cheers
Louise

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/16/06 1:14:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gregv.ma@rcn.com
writes:

15. William Faunt "purchased Foston; died there 4 Sept 1559, age 63.
Married (1) Anne Fielding. No
issue. Married (2) Jane, widow of Nicholas Purefoy Esq., but by
birth the daughter of George
Vincent of Peckleton. Jane died 1585, age 74.
[The Pedigrees of Purefoy and Vincent both confirm this]

No don't stop there!
This George Vincent of Peckleton to daughter Jane (Vincent) Faunt of Foston

And then maybe their son Anthony Faunt of Foston?
If Anthony is a son of William then William would get a Cecil number of 7
That interests me.
Anyone know?

Thanks
Will

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 17 mai 2006 12:55:50

In message of 17 May, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Something odd about Gorhambury...

Nicholas Bacon, Keeper of the Great Seal, died 20 Feb 1578/9 at York
House, London. His property at Gorhambury did not pass to any of
his eldest three sons or daughter by his first marriage but rather
to the eldest son by his *second* marriage to Anne Cooke.

Why?

Probably because the eldest son already had Redgrave (DNB 1st ed). How
did Gorhambury pass to Anthony? Might it have passed before Bacon's
death?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

JTC

Re: Sonne-in-Law and Now-Wife

Legg inn av JTC » 17 mai 2006 14:36:09

Douglas, I do not want to revive this thread. I'm not going to change
your mind. After 17 Nov 1655 Diana Skipwith never used her maiden name
again. Thomas Carter's first wife is not in his prayer book either.
Fleet never alleged fraud in that 17 Nov 1655 deed; he remarked that it
was not "altogether clear" to him what was happening.
You are a big boy and can write what you want.

Chris Dickinson

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 17 mai 2006 16:33:08

Will Johnson wrote:

Something odd about Gorhambury...

Nicholas Bacon, Keeper of the Great Seal, died 20 Feb 1578/9 at York House,
London. His property at Gorhambury did not pass to any of his eldest three
sons or daughter by his first marriage but rather to the eldest son by his
*second* marriage to Anne Cooke.

Why?

Then when the eldest son of that marriage, Anthony Bacon (who was 20 or 21
at
his fathers death), himself d.s.p. 1601, the property next came to his
brother Francis Bacon, Lord High Chancellor.


I would guess that Gorhambury was bought as part of the second marriage
settlement.

Gorhambury would have been given to Ann and any children she might have. In
the event of Ann having no children, she would have it for life, to revert
to Nicholas Bacon's heirs after her death. In the event of her natural heirs
dying without children, it would revert to Nicholas Bacon's heirs.

It might be worth checking where Gorhambury is in relation to Ann's family
properties. It would not be surprising if it had some historic or physical
relationship to their interests rather than to the Bacon ones.

Chris

Douglas Richardson

Re: Sonne-in-Law and Now-Wife

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 mai 2006 16:49:24

JTC wrote:
Douglas, I do not want to revive this thread.

Then why did you?

DR

Douglas Richardson

Re: Helen ferch Llywelyn ab Iorworth

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 mai 2006 16:55:25

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/16/06 4:05:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

I don't believe there can be any dispute that Earl Malcolm was survived
by a much younger second wife, Ellen.

And I am not disputing this newer theory. In fact I agree with it. My
database shows the situation as you have stated it.
Will

Thank you for the clarification.

DR

John Brandon

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av John Brandon » 17 mai 2006 18:34:42

I should mention that the marriage of Lionel Chute is going to be
published in NEHGR soon (by someone else).

Do you happen to know who?

Also, the next Great Migration volume is going to be out later this
year,
and it will include your information about James Matthews of Yarmouth,
Mass.

That's good (what I wanted).

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 19:07:02

In a message dated 5/16/2006 11:15:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

To add to this, there are plenty of Americans (Canadians, Australians,
etc) whose ancestors left Britain far later than the 17th century. They
don't seem to be covered by a newsgroup either.



Sure they are. There is a rootsweb mailing list for each part of Britain
and each part of America.

Gjest

Re: Margaret Buckland married John Wroth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 21:41:40

WJhon...@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/17/06 11:51:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

He was succeeded in 1362 [CIPM file 169, pt. i no. 34] by his
brother Thomas, who died without issue in 1377 seised of Brookley,
which than passed to his daughter Margaret, who had married John Worth
[CIPM 57 Edw III (2nd nos.), no. 17; CCR 2 Ric II, m. 12].

How can Thomas have "died without issue" if Brookley then passed to his
daughter Margaret ?

Ah, that's the whole point: although she was clearly his heir, I
haven't seen any original documentation that says Margaret was Thomas'
daughter, but there is original documentation that he died without
issue, therefore Mardi concluded (and I agree) that HoP and VCH are in
error here.

Michael

John Brandon

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av John Brandon » 17 mai 2006 21:49:02

I should mention that the marriage of Lionel Chute is going to be
published in NEHGR soon (by someone else).

Do you happen to know who?

Oh, I'll bet it's that Harold Bradley person.

Well, I guess that's okay. Maybe he can look into the royal line I
discussed. Robert Battle was kind enough to supply me with a copy of
the entry on the Chute-Wiggetts (? or Wiggett-Chutes) from Burke's
_Commoners_. This account (apparently from the parchment owned by the
Chute of the Vyne family in Hampshire) agrees very closely with the New
England parchment, with some apparent mispellings in the New England
version (i.e., "Mark Bartley" in the parchment, but "Maurice Berkeley"
in Burke's _Commoners_; "Lord Donhare" in the parchment chart, but
"Lord Denham" in _Commoners_).

He should also check out the Gore Roll at Hist-Gen, as representations
of the various Chute quarterings are included. I hypothesize that the
painter of the Gore Roll may have repainted the Chute parchment for the
Chute family, perhaps in payment for being allowed to consult it (at
any rate, the 1850 article in NEHGR describing it implies it may only
be 150 years old). The Gore Roll painter was active in the 1700-1720
range, I believe.

Gjest

Re: Margaret Buckland married John Wroth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 22:03:56

WJhon...@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 5/17/06 11:51:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

Cal IPMs 1-7 Richard II, #38: Thomas de Bokeland, knight: Inquest at
Winchester, Monday before St Peter in Cathedra, 2 Richard II; writs
issued 28 January 2 Richard II; manor of Brokle given to trustees
during his life, with remainder to the heirs of his body, and to John
Wroth and Margaret his wife and the heirs of their bodies; held the
manors of Up (sic) and Nether Wallop to himself and his wife Maud, who
is still living; he died without heir of his body, 19 January last;

Would this date be 19 Jan 1377/8 ?
Or would it be 19 Jan 1378/9 ?
Thanks
Will

The writs should have been issued fairly quickly after the death
(although this is not always the case) - here, they were issued on 28
January 2 Richard II, which equates to 28 January 1378/9 (that King
having succeeded in June 1377). The Inquest was held on 22 February
1378/9 (St Peter in Cathedra); this would produce a death date of 19
January 1378/9.

Gjest

Re: Margaret Buckland married John Wroth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 22:39:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 11:51:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< He was succeeded in 1362 [CIPM file 169, pt. i no. 34] by his
brother Thomas, who died without issue in 1377 seised of Brookley,
which than passed to his daughter Margaret, who had married John Worth
[CIPM 57 Edw III (2nd nos.), no. 17; CCR 2 Ric II, m. 12]. >>

How can Thomas have "died without issue" if Brookley then passed to his
daughter Margaret ?

John Brandon

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av John Brandon » 17 mai 2006 22:52:02

Oh, also ... I suspect the Somersetshire part of the pedigree may be
pure invention.

Gjest

Re: Margaret Buckland married John Wroth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 22:57:01

In a message dated 5/17/06 11:51:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< Cal IPMs 1-7 Richard II, #38: Thomas de Bokeland, knight: Inquest at
Winchester, Monday before St Peter in Cathedra, 2 Richard II; writs
issued 28 January 2 Richard II; manor of Brokle given to trustees
during his life, with remainder to the heirs of his body, and to John
Wroth and Margaret his wife and the heirs of their bodies; held the
manors of Up (sic) and Nether Wallop to himself and his wife Maud, who
is still living; he died without heir of his body, 19 January last; >>

Would this date be 19 Jan 1377/8 ?
Or would it be 19 Jan 1378/9 ?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Margaret Buckland married John Wroth

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 23:03:01

In a message dated 5/17/06 1:51:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< but there is original documentation that he died without
issue, therefore Mardi concluded (and I agree) that HoP and VCH are in
error here. >>

Okay I finally caught up! :) Sorry for the goof, now I'm on track.
Will

Chris Dickinson

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 17 mai 2006 23:16:41

I wrote:


I would guess that Gorhambury was bought as part of the second marriage
settlement.

Gorhambury would have been given to Ann and any children she might have. In
the event of Ann having no children, she would have it for life, to revert
to Nicholas Bacon's heirs after her death. In the event of her natural
heirs
dying without children, it would revert to Nicholas Bacon's heirs.

It might be worth checking where Gorhambury is in relation to Ann's family
properties. It would not be surprising if it had some historic or physical
relationship to their interests rather than to the Bacon ones.


Looking at a website on the house, I see that a lot of money was spent on it
in the 1560s - so my last paragraph certainly wouldn't work. However, a
marriage settlement still would.

A grand house built to impress Elizabeth and house her for a couple of weeks
wasn't necessarily the sort of place you would want to spend money on
maintaining otherwise! Could be a rather poisonous inheritance, unless you
happen to become Lord Chancellor!


Chris

Gjest

Re: Fraser of Durris

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 23:22:01

In a message dated 5/17/06 2:06:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
talksinsentences@gmail.com writes:

<< 3. Alexander? Fraser (d by 1491) = Giles Arbuthnot of Arbuthnot
4. William? Fraser = daughter of Guthrie of Lunan >>

Is Giles supposed to be a female?
Shouldn't the name be Gill ?
Will

Gjest

Re: Fraser of Durris

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 23:28:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 2:06:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
talksinsentences@gmail.com writes:

<< That works perfectly well in terms of the
"Barons" document, however STIRNET assigns Christian Arbuthnot to
Robert Arbuthnot 12th of Arbuthnot whom it says d1506 and his second
wife Mariota Scrymgeour, whom it says he married in 1475. >>

What is Stirnet's source for saying that Christian is the daughter of Robert
12th?

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2006 23:58:02

Dear Leslie,
Thank You for writing the Appleton article in the latest
NEHGR. The Sister`s will mentioning my sister Judith Appleton now in New England
certainly nails down that part of the pedigree so It`s now proven instead of
98% certain that She is the correct Judith Everard, wife of the right Samuel
Appleton.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 00:03:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 5:06:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

<< Probably because the eldest son already had Redgrave (DNB 1st ed). How
did Gorhambury pass to Anthony? Might it have passed before Bacon's
death? >>

Yes, the eldest son did get Redgrave. There is an A2A entry showing he is
calling himself Nicholas Bacon of Redgrave by at least 1599. I cannot find
anything earlier. However, it's interesting that when Queen Elizabeth visited
the father, also called Nicholas Bacon, she remarked at "what a little house you
have", and later he built Gorhambury, I suppose the allegation is, as a
result of her remark.

At any rate, it seems clear (to me) that Gorhambury was much much larger than
Redgrave, which is why it seems odd that the eldest didn't get it.

I suppose that Nicholas Bacon, Lord Keeper d 20 Feb 1578/9 left a will, and
I find a remark about his executors, but so far I haven't found any remarks
about the will itself to know what it said :)

There's a dozen remarks that he left his *son* Francis nothing, but then they
don't go further to remark what he left to anyone else. I was hoping to find
a free copy of it somewhere :)

Will

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Curious

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 18 mai 2006 00:20:47

On 15 May 2006 20:07:47 -0700, "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com>
wrote:

Pierre Riche, in his The Carolingians (trans. Michael I.
Allen), provided some fleshing-out of Berengar II's career.
I can't find my copy at present ("Not on Shelf" as they say at
the LOC), but the 5 generation pedigree below provides what
details I have at present re: Berengar II's paternal ancestry
(to his grandfather Anscar anyway), and his grandchildren.

[snip]

A few minor comments appear below.

1.1a.1.2a.1a Baldwin IV of Flanders*
----------------------------------------
....
Spouse: Ogiva of Luxembourg
Death: 21 Feb 1036[7],[11]
Father: Frederick of Luxembourg (-1019)
Mother: Gerberga of Kinziggau (->0985)
Marr: ca 1012[11],[7]

The is no good evidence regarding the name of Frederick's wife, a
daughter of count Heribert of Kinziggau. It is evidently a guess
based on no more than the fact that she had a grandmother named
Gerberga.

1.1a.1.2a.1b Baldwin IV of Flanders* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Elena of Normandy
Father: Richard II of Normandy (0978-1026)
Mother: Judith of Rennes (-1017)

The same is true for Baldwin IV's second (Norman) wife. Her name is
not given in any of the early sources.

1.1a.1.2b Rosala (Susanna) of Ivrea* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Robert II of France
Birth: 27 Mar 0972
Death: 20 Jul 1031
Father: Hugh 'Capet' of France (ca0941-0996)
Mother: Adela of Aquitaine (ca0950-1004)

The "of Aquitaine" part is not at all clear.

Stewart Baldwin

Ginny Wagner

RE: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 18 mai 2006 01:04:01

From CTG, written by George Cornelius Gorham, Vol V, 1838,
pg. 199:

1. John de Sanford, Lord of Great Hormede, occurs 1199 and
1220; m. ?

1.1. Cecilia de Sanford, Governess of Elenor (sister of
Henry III, relict of William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke),
died 23 July 1251, universally regretted, and was buried
with much honour at St. Albans in front of the altar of St.
Andrew; m. Sir William de Gorham, knight, d. ca. 1230

1.1.1 Sir William de Gorham, knight, had moiety of
Westwick, occurs 1240, died 17 Apr. 1278; m. ?. In 1257,
being in Ireland, he was returned to the Exchequer as liable
to knight's service, for the expedition against Llewelly, as
holding a moiety of a fee from the Abbot of St.Alband. He
was one of the Commissioners for the returns under the
Hundred Roll for Hertfordshire, in 1275.

1.1.1.1. William de Gorham, b. 1 May 1266, d. Sept. 1278, a
minor.
1.1.1.2. John de Gorham, b. 1268, sold manor of Westwick
1307.


1.2. Nicholas de Sanford, held Aston Sanford 1234, d. 23
Jan, 1252.
1.3. Gilbert de Sanford, Lord of Great Hormede, Chamberlain
to Queen Elenor, d. 1250; m. Lora

1.3.1. Alicia de Sanford, bought the reversion of Westwick
1307, died 1312; m. Robert de Veer, 5th Earl of Oxford, Lord
of Gt. Hormede, d. 1296

1.3.1.1. Alphonsus de Veer, Lord of Great Hormede 1297, of
Aston Sanford 1316, and of Westwick-Gorham, ca. 1320.

It looks to me like the 1320 date was when Alphonsus de Veer
ascended to the lordship of Westwick-Gorham.

Ginny Wagner

Gjest

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 01:09:01

In a message dated 5/17/06 3:21:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris@dickinson.uk.net writes:

<< A grand house built to impress Elizabeth and house her for a couple of
weeks
wasn't necessarily the sort of place you would want to spend money on
maintaining otherwise! Could be a rather poisonous inheritance, unless you
happen to become Lord Chancellor! >>

I've found a good reference finally. In the biography of Anthony Bacon (his
son), it states that the Lord Keeper gave the house to his wife (Anne Cooke)
for her life, with REVERSION to Anthony of children of *her* body (Anne's), so
the next heir would be Anthony's brother Francis.

Now Anthony himself *never actually lived there!*, he spent a long time on
the continent, which his mother greatly disapproved. And for those of us with
HOTMAN family descent, it should be noted that he was ingratiating himself with
the house of Navarre (this would be prior to Henry becoming King of France
you see).

At any rate, Anthony finally returned to England around the 1592 time period,
and lived off and on with his brother Francis at Greys Inn and later with
Essex at Essex House, prior to Essex's treason trial that is.

Badly for him I suppose he died in 1601 prior to his mother's death, so he
never actually enjoyed the house himself!

It then would pass from Anne (Cooke) Bacon to her next son Francis.

And as for Redgrave, Sir Nicholas Bacon 1540-1624 DID in fact dispute the
will of his father giving Gorhambury to Anne and her sons. But he lost.

So there you go. Nice, neat, and explains it all.

Will

Chris Dickinson

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 18 mai 2006 01:21:23

Will Johnson wrote:

<snip>
Correction: for "gave the house" read "bequeathed the house". It was
through
his will that it occurred.


You are probably trying to be too precise. There were likely a number of
documents, customs, agreements and understandings on which Anne's occupation
was based - with the will as a final confirmation. It would be surprising if
her future wasn't secured long before she reached the altar or he paradise.

Chris

Renia

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Renia » 18 mai 2006 01:35:11

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/16/2006 11:15:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

To add to this, there are plenty of Americans (Canadians, Australians,
etc) whose ancestors left Britain far later than the 17th century. They
don't seem to be covered by a newsgroup either.



Sure they are. There is a rootsweb mailing list for each part of Britain
and each part of America.

I'm talking about newsgroups.

Ginny Wagner

RE: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 18 mai 2006 02:00:02

If you want a good biography of Anthony and Francis, try
Golden Lads by Daphne du Maurier. Verrrry Interesting. ;-)

Ginny Wagner

Gjest

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:07:04

In a message dated 5/17/06 4:03:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:

<< 1.3.1.1. Alphonsus de Veer, Lord of Great Hormede 1297, of
Aston Sanford 1316, and of Westwick-Gorham, ca. 1320.

It looks to me like the 1320 date was when Alphonsus de Veer
ascended to the lordship of Westwick-Gorham. >>

Possibly. When Alice bought "the reversion", who held the manor ? What
reversion was she buying? I mean based on the death of... who? John de Gorham ?

If so, then perhaps 1320 is when John died and so Alice never actually got
control of the property herself but it passed to her heir Alphonsus that year.

Alphonsus was already in his majority before this date, as his son John was b
"abt 12 Mar 1312"

Will

Chris Dickinson

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 18 mai 2006 02:07:23

Will Jhonson wrote:


You might be right, but the eldest son Nicholas Bacon sued only after his
father had died. That to me suggests it was through the will only that the
issue
was made plain.


Maybe. I expect that this is quite well documented.

The only thing you can be sure about is that the lawyers got their take.

Chris

Gjest

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:08:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 4:08:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:

<< I've found a good reference finally. In the biography of Anthony Bacon
(his
son), it states that the Lord Keeper gave the house to his wife (Anne Cooke)
for her life, with REVERSION to Anthony of children of *her* body (Anne's),
so
the next heir would be Anthony's brother Francis. >>

Correction: for "gave the house" read "bequeathed the house". It was through
his will that it occurred.
Will

Gjest

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:10:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 4:59:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:

<< If you want a good biography of Anthony and Francis, try
Golden Lads by Daphne du Maurier. Verrrry Interesting. ;-) >>

Silly! I only read free books :)
Will

Gjest

Re: Francis Bacon (1561-1626), Lord High Chancellor

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:12:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 4:42:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< But what is the name of her father? the Kellie entry reverses the names
and
indicate he was Ambrose or Humphrey Smith, of Cheapside, London, Silkman. >>

I would think if he was "silkman to Queen Elizabeth" then perhaps the A2A
will have some obscure reference to something like

"I Elizabeth Queen, etc give to my silkman .... Anthony?"

that could clear things up
Will

Gjest

Re: Francis Bacon (1561-1626), Lord High Chancellor

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:14:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 4:42:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< We know now as husbands Benedict Barnham, Sir John Packington and Thomas
Erskine

CP under Kellie gives the missing husband Robert Needham, 1st Viscount
Kilmorey (who died November 1631 and she was his 4th wife)

This entry also gives the order of her husbands 1.Benedict Barnham, 2 Sir
John Packington 3.Robert Needham 4.Thomas Erskine. >>

This woman did not mess around! She just kept marrying higher and higher.
Must have been quite an ambitious little thing.
Will

Gjest

Re: Dorothy Smith, the social climber

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:31:02

Leo, as far as her last husband Robert Needham, 1st Viscount Kilmorey you
have nothing on his parents.

Stirnet says his mother was Frances Aston dau of Edward Aston of Tixhall and
if you flip to stirnet's Aston page it continues on to link him into the
Lyttleton/Burley marriage which probably (although I haven't completely traced it)
would take you back to some royal connection at some point.

Will

Gjest

Re: Dorothy Smith, the social climber

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:43:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 5:30:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:

<< Stirnet says his mother was Frances Aston dau of Edward Aston of Tixhall
and
if you flip to stirnet's Aston page it continues on to link him into the
Lyttleton/Burley marriage which probably (although I haven't completely
traced it)
would take you back to some royal connection at some point. >>

Actually there is no need to look at the Aston for the royal connection.
Robert Needham, 1st Viscount Kilmorey
son of
Robert Needham
son of
Anne Talbot
dau of
Gilbert Talbot
son of
John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury d 10 Jul 1460 battle of Northampton and
his wife Elizabeth Boteler d 8 Sep 1473

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: What this list is

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:45:03

In a message dated 5/17/06 5:36:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

<< I'm talking about newsgroups. >>

Why? If there is a message board at rootsweb/ancestry (which are all free)
that covers your area of Britian, why not use it instead of beating your head
against the idea that there's no newsgroup that covers it?
Will

Gjest

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:47:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 5:36:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
chris@dickinson.uk.net writes:

<< It would be surprising if
her future wasn't secured long before she reached the altar or he paradise.

You might be right, but the eldest son Nicholas Bacon sued only after his
father had died. That to me suggests it was through the will only that the issue
was made plain.
Will

Gjest

Re: Huddleston and Greene

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 02:53:01

In a message dated 5/17/06 3:06:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< This Henry is a son of Sir John Huddleston of Millom, who died in 1494,
and a brother of Sir John Huddleston of Gloucestershire (d 1512); his
aunt, Agnes, married William Greene, according to the Visitation of
Hertfordshire, and had a son Thomas; perhaps Robert Greene of London
was another son and thus Henry's cousin. >>

His aunt Agnes Huddleston ?
Or his aunt Agnes Stapleton ?

Will

John Higgins

Re: Gorham Pedigree

Legg inn av John Higgins » 18 mai 2006 03:16:01

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: Gorham Pedigree


In a message dated 5/17/06 4:59:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com writes:

If you want a good biography of Anthony and Francis, try
Golden Lads by Daphne du Maurier. Verrrry Interesting. ;-)

Silly! I only read free books :)
Will


It's still free if you get it through your local library...like I did some

time ago. :-)

[On-line books aren't necessarily the only way to go....]

Mary Zashin

Re: Pilkington - additions to RPA and MCA

Legg inn av Mary Zashin » 18 mai 2006 04:16:02

Hi, Mr. Higgins, This is very interesting. Would you be able to
connect Sir Arthur to his great-great grandparents, Ralph Reresby and
Margaret FitzWilliam? I have found the ancestries given below for
these two, but I have been unable to locate the generations to Sir
Arthur. Corrections to the material below are welcome. Thanks, Mary
Zashin


On May 14, 2006, at 11:00 PM, GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote:
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
Date: May 14, 2006 1:52:47 PM CDT
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Pilkington - additions to RPA and MCA


Some digging into the sources cited in the recent thread on the
Pilkington family indicates some likely additions to the recently
published "Plantagenet Ancestry" and "Magna Carta Ancestry" giving
descents for this family.

Both RPA and MCA list Katherine Pilkington as the wife of John Lowe
of Denby and thus the mother of Maryland immigrants Col. Nicholas
Lowe and Col. Henry Lowe. Katherine is shown as the daughter of
Sir Arthur Pilkington, [1st] Baronet, of Stanley, Yorkshire, and
his wife Ellen, dau. of Henry Lyon of Roxby, but no further
ancestry beyond the parents is given for Katherine.

However, it appears that Sir Arthur had Plantagenet ancestry and
Magna Carta ancestry through his paternal grandmother Barbara
Reresby. Barbara's great-grandparents (Ralph Reresby and Margaret
Fitzwilliam) and great-great-grandparents (Ralph Reresby and Agnes
Stapleton) are listed in either or both of RPA and MCA, but
descendants of these marriages are not listed.

Sir Arthur may also have similar ancestry through his paternal
grandfather Thomas Pilkington of Nether Bradley, but this is more
problematic as it depends on connections which are somewhat
conjectural (for example, the Fitzwilliam ancestry of the Savile
family).


I have found this ancestry for Margaret Fitzwilliam, Barbara
Reresby's great grandmother:

1 Margaret FITZWILLIAM

2 Sir Richard FITZWILLIAM
3 Elizabeth CLARELL +12 May 1503.

4 Edmund FITZWILLIAM +24 Dec 1465.
5 Katherine CLIFTON +14 Mar 1435/36.
6 Thomas CLARELL. 1402-sh bef 15 Jul 1450
7 Elizabeth SCROPE

8 Edmund FITZWILLIAM abt 1355 - 1358 - 5 Feb 1430/31
9 Maud HOTHAM abt 1380 - 18 May 1433
10 Sir John CLIFTON. +21 Jul 1403
11 Katherine CRESSY abt 1368 - 1378 - bef 1420
12 Sir Thomas CLARELL bef 1368 - 1 May 1442
13 Maud MONTGOMERY bef 1379 - sh bef 17 Mar 1456/57
14 Sir John LE SCROPE abt 1355 - bet 18 - 23 Dec 1405
15 Elizabeth STRATHBOGIE 1 Mar 1362/63 - aft 1416

And for her husband, Ralph Reresby:

1 Ralph RERESBY

2 Ralph RERESBY
3 Agnes STAPLETON

6 Sir John STAPLETON abt 1399 - bet 21 Feb 1454/55 - 3 Jun 1455
7 Margaret NORTON +7 Jan 1465/66

12 Sir Miles STAPLETON +6 Feb 1399/1400
13 Joan UFFLETE +aft 1421
14 Sir Richard NORTON
15 Elizabeth TEMPEST

24 Sir Brian DE STAPLETON abt 1325 - 25 Jul 1394
25 Alice DE SAINT PHILIBERT +bet 1378/79 - 21 Dec 1384
26 Sir Gerard UFFLETE +sh bef Apr 1406
27 Elinor LEGARD
30 Sir John TEMPEST

48 Sir Gilbert DE STAPLETON +bef 23 Jun 1324
49 Agnes FITZALAN 1298 - bef 3 Nov 1348
50 Sir John DE SAINT PHILIBERT abt 1293 - bef 12 Feb 1332/33
51 Ada DE BOTETOURT +sh bef Whitsuntide 1349
52 Sir Gerard UFFLETE
53 Emma FERRIBY
54 Ralph LEGARD
55 Constance CUTTS

96 Sir Miles DE STAPLETON +24 Jun 1314
97 Isabel DE BELEWE
98 Sir Brian FITZALAN +1 Jun 1306
99 Maud +aft 10 Apr 1340
100 Sir Hugh DE SAINT PHILIBERT +31 Dec 1304
101 Alice DE BLAKENHAM
102 John DE BOTETOURT +25 Nov 1324
103 Maud FITZTHOMAS abt 1271 - aft 28 May 1329-
104 Sir John UFFLETE
105 Lora DE FURNIVALLE
110 Sir John CUTTS
111 Elizabeth ROUTH

192 Sir Nicholas DE STAPLETON.
193 Margery BASSET
194 John DE BELEWE
195 Laderane DE BRUS
196 Sir Alan FITZBRIAN +sh bef 17 May 1267
197 Agnes ??
200 Hugh DE SAINT PHILIBERT abt 1225 - aft 1272
202 Bennet DE BLAKENHAM
203 Joan DE HASTINGS
204 Sir Guy DE BOTETOURT+aft 1316
205 Ada ?? +aft 1312
206 Sir Thomas FITZOTES abt 1231 - bef 28 Mar 1274
207 Beatrice DE BEAUCHAMP +abt 1280
210 Sir Gerard DE FURNIVALLE +bet 1290 - 1302
211 Isabel ??
222 Brian ROUTH

Gjest

Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 04:24:01

In a message dated 5/17/06 12:51:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

<< Yes. Anthony Faunt who married Elizabeth Noel was the son of William
Faunt according to VCH Leics, Vol 5. pp 193-213. >>

This Elizabeth Noel is called "daughter of Andrew Noel of Dalby, Leics."
At first I wanted to put her as a daughter to Sir Andrew Noel d 19 Oct 1607
(at Brooke, Rutland) but all his other children were born probably in the
1567-1605 time period and his daughter Elizabeth Noel, Countess of Castlehaven
married the Earl of Castlehaven in 1611 and as late as 1638 was still styled
"Countess of Castlehaven" when the Duchess of Lennox petitioned the council, on
her behalf to have her safeguarded, because Elizabeth has apparently gone insane.

So I believe that this Elizabeth (Noel) Faunt must be a dau of this Sir
Andrew Noel's father, also called Andrew Noel of Dalby, thus making her a dau of
Elizabeth Hopton.

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Pilkington - additions to RPA and MCA

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 04:34:01

In a message dated 5/17/06 7:15:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
zashin@ameritech.net writes:

<< Hi, Mr. Higgins, This is very interesting. Would you be able to
connect Sir Arthur to his great-great grandparents, Ralph Reresby and
Margaret FitzWilliam? I have found the ancestries given below for
these two, but I have been unable to locate the generations to Sir
Arthur. Corrections to the material below are welcome. Thanks, Mary
Zashin >>

Lionel Reresby and Anne Swift are listed at http://www.stirnet.com

John P. Ravilious

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 18 mai 2006 04:35:25

Dear Will,

Excuse my jumping back in here....

The last part of my last part includes the information, derived
from the Red Book of Menteith:

Patrick Graham (1st Lord Graham)
b. (apparently) before 10 Nov 1403
- presumably, of age on 10 Nov 1424

' Patricii de Grahame', being of full age, and the nearest
legitimate heir of Alexander Graham, had seisin of the
lands of the lordship of Kincardine under precept of sasine
by Walter Stewart, Earl of Athol and Caithness, as tutor of
Malise, Earl of Strathearn, dated at Methven, 10 Nov 1424
[Red Book of Menteith II:292-3, No. 56]

The reference to his being 'of full age' implies clearly (unless
of course someone forced the issue, and was not questioned on same)
that Patrick was aged 21, or more, at the time he had seisin.

Cheers,

John



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/12/06 12:35:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com writes:

Those dates seem to fit in the pretty tight chronology of the Grahams,
BUT in 1424 Patrick later Ist Lord Graham was infeft in the lands on
his grandfather's death.

I dispute this. What is the source for this date ?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Clare-ifications

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 04:40:02

In a message dated 5/16/06 11:35:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< BOGES (or BOEGHES, BEGES) DE CLARE, clerk, papal chaplain, king's
clerk, born 21 July 1248. He occurs as Canon of York from 5 Nov. 1265,
Canon of Exeter, 1267, >>

When he was seventeen ?

Gjest

Re: Huddleston and Greene

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 05:18:02

In a message dated 5/17/06 7:50:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< I have a Katherine Huddlestone who married John Machell of Crackenthorpe,
Westmorland. His parents were William Machell who died in 1399 and Margaret
Thornburgh. >>

It's not made any easier by the apparent use of Crackenthorpe as a surname!
I tried to search A2A and most of the references have nothing to do with the
Machell's as far as I can tell.

Also I can't seem to find *any* references to the Machell family prior to
about 1550ish which is odd. I suppose they went under a variant spelling, but I
don't know what.

Will

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 05:20:03

In a message dated 5/12/06 12:35:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com writes:

<< Those dates seem to fit in the pretty tight chronology of the Grahams,
BUT in 1424 Patrick later Ist Lord Graham was infeft in the lands on
his grandfather's death. >>

I dispute this. What is the source for this date ?
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 05:36:02

In a message dated 5/13/06 5:24:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< What I see that sticks out like a sore thumb: Elizabeth m. William
Livingston in 1480, but her siblings William and Janet were married
prior to 1460, and ca 16 June 1455 [dated of bond of relief for her
tocher], respectively. >>

I don't have this information on this "Janet Graham".
Can you tell me what it says?
I do however have an "Isabel Graham" supposed to be a sibling who married
"Walter Buchanan of that Ilk" and thereby had Margaret Buchanan who married
Alexander Graham, 2nd Earl Menteith (d bef 27 Feb 1536/7)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 05:44:03

In a message dated 5/13/06 5:35:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< ' Sir Thomas of Erskine, Sir Patrick of Graham,and Sir Robert of
Danielston, the King's cousins and knights,..' witnesses together with others of
'A Charter under the Great Seal granted by Robert III, King of Scotland to
his
cousin David Fleming of £50 sterling of annual rent due to him by religious
men,...dated at Scone, 14th March 1391.' [Charter Chest of the
Earls of Wigtown, p. 101, no. 847 - 'cf. Reg. Mag. Sig. folio vol. p. 200']


Can someone claify for me how Sir Thomas Erskine and Sir Patrick Graham were
cousins of Robert III ?
Thanks
Will

James Dempster

Re: Fraser of Durris

Legg inn av James Dempster » 18 mai 2006 05:50:52

On Wed, 17 May 2006 21:27:05 +0000 (UTC), WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/17/06 2:06:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
talksinsentences@gmail.com writes:

That works perfectly well in terms of the
"Barons" document, however STIRNET assigns Christian Arbuthnot to
Robert Arbuthnot 12th of Arbuthnot whom it says d1506 and his second
wife Mariota Scrymgeour, whom it says he married in 1475.

What is Stirnet's source for saying that Christian is the daughter of Robert
12th?

The STIRNET page covering Christian does not source each person
individually rather it says

"Main sources: The family name is sometimes spelled 'Arbuthnott'. We
follow the spelling shown on the family's web site mentioned below.
(1) TSP (Arbuthnott).
(2) The very impressive Arbuthnot family web site at
http://www.kittybrewster.com (link given on 'Arbuthnot01')."

I haven't immediate access to the Scots Peerage and Kittybrewster.com
doesn't list a source for Christian's parentage or marriage.

James
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 05:53:02

In a message dated 5/13/06 5:35:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< had seisin of the lands of the lordship of Kincardine in his father's
lifetime:
' Alexander de Grahame, pater quondam Patricii de Grahame', died vested and
seised as of fee in the lordship of Kincardine >>

If he was seized of Kincardine, then why shoudn't we refer to him as "Lord of
Kincardine" ?
Will

Gjest

Re: SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 06:06:02

This new information tightens up some chronology. I have revised my database
as follows, based on this

Patrick, Lord Graham born 1398/1403
his father
Alexander Graham "Lord [of] Kincardine" born 1381/6
his father
William, 1st Lord Graham born 1364/9
his father
Patrick Graham, Earl Strathearn born 1347/50
his parents
Patrick, Lord Graham born 1320/33 and Egidia Stewart born 1333/7
her father
Sir John Stewart of Railston born 1316/20

Sir John now becomes the "critical line" to determining when his parents
married and thus also when Marjorie Bruce died. Sir John would appear to be the
eldest child possibly. Certainly the most tightly bound.

Nothing much else is changed by this, but at least it now all fits.
Will Johnson

Louise Staley

Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 18 mai 2006 06:15:13

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/17/06 12:51:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

Yes. Anthony Faunt who married Elizabeth Noel was the son of William
Faunt according to VCH Leics, Vol 5. pp 193-213.

This Elizabeth Noel is called "daughter of Andrew Noel of Dalby, Leics."
At first I wanted to put her as a daughter to Sir Andrew Noel d 19 Oct 1607
(at Brooke, Rutland) but all his other children were born probably in the
1567-1605 time period and his daughter Elizabeth Noel, Countess of Castlehaven
married the Earl of Castlehaven in 1611 and as late as 1638 was still styled
"Countess of Castlehaven" when the Duchess of Lennox petitioned the council, on
her behalf to have her safeguarded, because Elizabeth has apparently gone insane.

So I believe that this Elizabeth (Noel) Faunt must be a dau of this Sir
Andrew Noel's father, also called Andrew Noel of Dalby, thus making her a dau of
Elizabeth Hopton.

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson


Yes I agree with you that Elizabeth Noel was the daughter of Sir Andrew
Noel and Elizabeth Hopton. I have that she died 11 April 1620 and is
buried at Foston.

Her son Henry was born in 1581 according to his MI
"1665 Here lieth ye body of Henry Fawnt Esq're 2 sonne of Anthony Fawnt
of Foston & Elizabeth his wife, Daughter of Sir Andrew Noel of Dawlby in
Com Leic. K'nt who died ye 3 of May 1665. in ye 84 yeare of his age."

My sources are scanty on this line.

cheers
Louise

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 06:16:02

In a message dated 5/12/06 2:15:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Ellen de Quincy >>

Douglas I thought we were correcting each other on the mix of languages?
"Ellen" ? "de Quincy" ?
Shouldn't it be either "Ellen Quincy" or something like "Alinore de Quincy" ?

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 06:21:01

In a message dated 5/12/06 2:15:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< "54. [Date: 1283-86?].

Letter to J[ohn] de Kirkeby, archdeacon, from H. de Walcote, his clerk.
He has received the attorneys of Ranulph Fitz Robert de Nevile and
Eufemia, his wife, namely John Cort and Ranulph Schoulard, in the plea
before the justices of the bench between Margery de Ferrars, countess
of Derby, Elena, widow of Alan la Suche, Alexander, earl of Buchan, and
Elizabet', his wife, plaintiffs, and Ranulph and Eufemia, defendants,
over 11-1/2 virgates in Sydeston. Asks for a writ to the justices
concerning this. [SC 1/8/139]." END OF QUOTE. >>

I have Margery "d bef 12 Mar 1281" citing genealogics as my source
Will

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Ranulph de Neville and E

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 06:30:03

In a message dated 5/12/06 5:20:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< I find that the manor of Groby and the
advowson of Syston, Leicestershire were settled by William de Ferrers
on himself and his wife, Ellen, and their issue in 10 Edward II
(1316-1317), as indicated below:

C 143/123/11: William de Ferariis to settle the manor of Groby and the
advowson of the church of Syston on himself, Ellen his wife, and the
heirs of their bodies, with remainder to Mordac de Meneteith and his
heirs, retaining the manors of Stebbing, Woodham Ferrars, Fairsted
(Essex), and Newbottle and Farndon (N'hamp). >>


On which date, the particular William Ferrers you are alluding to had been
dead some 20 years or more and his widow remarried for most of that time to
William "Le Hardi" , /Douglas/ , Knt who himself died in the Tower between 12 Oct
1297 and 24 Jan 1299

Unless of course she then married another William de Ferrers of Groby.

John Higgins

Re: Pilkington - additions to RPA and MCA

Legg inn av John Higgins » 18 mai 2006 06:32:02

As Will Johnson has separately pointed out, the Reresby ancestry of Sir
Arthur Pilkington can be easily viewed on the Stirnet website. The two
Ralphs mentioned in my note are on the "Reresby1" page while Barbara is on
the "Reresby2" page.

This is certainly not the only source for this ancestry. The usual
reference tools (e.g., Marshall and Whitmore) can be used to trace the
Reresby ancestry, starting (for example) with Clay's edition of Dugdale's
visitation of Yorkshire.

The immediate Pilkington ancestry is as follows: Sir Arthur, the 1st
baronet, was the son of Frederick and his 2nd wife Frances Rodes. Frederick
was the son of Thomas P. and Barbara Reresby. Thomas was the son of Robert
P. of Bradley and Rosamund Walton. Robert was the son of Arthur P. of
Bradley and Alive Savile. The last two wives mentioned MAY also have
Plantagenet ancestry, but the connections are more problematic. The source
for the Pilkingtons is the one cited on leo's Genelogics website (mentioned
in an earlier post on the Pilkingtons).

Hope this helps....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Zashin" <zashin@ameritech.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Pilkington - additions to RPA and MCA


Hi, Mr. Higgins, This is very interesting. Would you be able to
connect Sir Arthur to his great-great grandparents, Ralph Reresby and
Margaret FitzWilliam? I have found the ancestries given below for
these two, but I have been unable to locate the generations to Sir
Arthur. Corrections to the material below are welcome. Thanks, Mary
Zashin


On May 14, 2006, at 11:00 PM, GEN-MEDIEVAL-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote:

From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
Date: May 14, 2006 1:52:47 PM CDT
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Pilkington - additions to RPA and MCA


Some digging into the sources cited in the recent thread on the
Pilkington family indicates some likely additions to the recently
published "Plantagenet Ancestry" and "Magna Carta Ancestry" giving
descents for this family.

Both RPA and MCA list Katherine Pilkington as the wife of John Lowe
of Denby and thus the mother of Maryland immigrants Col. Nicholas
Lowe and Col. Henry Lowe. Katherine is shown as the daughter of
Sir Arthur Pilkington, [1st] Baronet, of Stanley, Yorkshire, and
his wife Ellen, dau. of Henry Lyon of Roxby, but no further
ancestry beyond the parents is given for Katherine.

However, it appears that Sir Arthur had Plantagenet ancestry and
Magna Carta ancestry through his paternal grandmother Barbara
Reresby. Barbara's great-grandparents (Ralph Reresby and Margaret
Fitzwilliam) and great-great-grandparents (Ralph Reresby and Agnes
Stapleton) are listed in either or both of RPA and MCA, but
descendants of these marriages are not listed.

Sir Arthur may also have similar ancestry through his paternal
grandfather Thomas Pilkington of Nether Bradley, but this is more
problematic as it depends on connections which are somewhat
conjectural (for example, the Fitzwilliam ancestry of the Savile
family).


I have found this ancestry for Margaret Fitzwilliam, Barbara
Reresby's great grandmother:

1 Margaret FITZWILLIAM

2 Sir Richard FITZWILLIAM
3 Elizabeth CLARELL +12 May 1503.

4 Edmund FITZWILLIAM +24 Dec 1465.
5 Katherine CLIFTON +14 Mar 1435/36.
6 Thomas CLARELL. 1402-sh bef 15 Jul 1450
7 Elizabeth SCROPE

8 Edmund FITZWILLIAM abt 1355 - 1358 - 5 Feb 1430/31
9 Maud HOTHAM abt 1380 - 18 May 1433
10 Sir John CLIFTON. +21 Jul 1403
11 Katherine CRESSY abt 1368 - 1378 - bef 1420
12 Sir Thomas CLARELL bef 1368 - 1 May 1442
13 Maud MONTGOMERY bef 1379 - sh bef 17 Mar 1456/57
14 Sir John LE SCROPE abt 1355 - bet 18 - 23 Dec 1405
15 Elizabeth STRATHBOGIE 1 Mar 1362/63 - aft 1416

And for her husband, Ralph Reresby:

1 Ralph RERESBY

2 Ralph RERESBY
3 Agnes STAPLETON

6 Sir John STAPLETON abt 1399 - bet 21 Feb 1454/55 - 3 Jun 1455
7 Margaret NORTON +7 Jan 1465/66

12 Sir Miles STAPLETON +6 Feb 1399/1400
13 Joan UFFLETE +aft 1421
14 Sir Richard NORTON
15 Elizabeth TEMPEST

24 Sir Brian DE STAPLETON abt 1325 - 25 Jul 1394
25 Alice DE SAINT PHILIBERT +bet 1378/79 - 21 Dec 1384
26 Sir Gerard UFFLETE +sh bef Apr 1406
27 Elinor LEGARD
30 Sir John TEMPEST

48 Sir Gilbert DE STAPLETON +bef 23 Jun 1324
49 Agnes FITZALAN 1298 - bef 3 Nov 1348
50 Sir John DE SAINT PHILIBERT abt 1293 - bef 12 Feb 1332/33
51 Ada DE BOTETOURT +sh bef Whitsuntide 1349
52 Sir Gerard UFFLETE
53 Emma FERRIBY
54 Ralph LEGARD
55 Constance CUTTS

96 Sir Miles DE STAPLETON +24 Jun 1314
97 Isabel DE BELEWE
98 Sir Brian FITZALAN +1 Jun 1306
99 Maud +aft 10 Apr 1340
100 Sir Hugh DE SAINT PHILIBERT +31 Dec 1304
101 Alice DE BLAKENHAM
102 John DE BOTETOURT +25 Nov 1324
103 Maud FITZTHOMAS abt 1271 - aft 28 May 1329-
104 Sir John UFFLETE
105 Lora DE FURNIVALLE
110 Sir John CUTTS
111 Elizabeth ROUTH

192 Sir Nicholas DE STAPLETON.
193 Margery BASSET
194 John DE BELEWE
195 Laderane DE BRUS
196 Sir Alan FITZBRIAN +sh bef 17 May 1267
197 Agnes ??
200 Hugh DE SAINT PHILIBERT abt 1225 - aft 1272
202 Bennet DE BLAKENHAM
203 Joan DE HASTINGS
204 Sir Guy DE BOTETOURT+aft 1316
205 Ada ?? +aft 1312
206 Sir Thomas FITZOTES abt 1231 - bef 28 Mar 1274
207 Beatrice DE BEAUCHAMP +abt 1280
210 Sir Gerard DE FURNIVALLE +bet 1290 - 1302
211 Isabel ??
222 Brian ROUTH





Gjest

Re: SP Addition: ancestry of Elizabeth de Caldcotis (and Liv

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mai 2006 06:44:03

In a message dated 5/12/06 7:13:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Therav3 writes:

<< You might think the 1421 dispensation for William Livingston and
Elizabeth Caldecote (de Caldcotis) was involving two relative
'nobodies', but note: William was half-brother of Sir Alexander
Livingston of Callendar, the nephew >>

Is William Livingston who married Elizabeth de Caldcotis the same person as
William Livingston who married Eufemia Wemyss ?

And what relation do these William's have to
William Livingston who married Elizabeth Graham (abt 1480) ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Huddleston and Greene

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 18 mai 2006 06:51:01

Sometimes Machel or Mauchel. But Crackenthorpe wasn't used as a surname on
anything I've seen, except for an 11th century ancestor, whose name was
Williemus Malus Catulus de Crackenthorpe. Crackenthorpe or Kreigenthorpe
was originally a Roman camp, and the Machell home, Crackenthorpe Hall near
Appleby, Westmorland was lived in continuously by the Machell family from
about 1100 to about 1780, when it was sold to Lord Lowther. Captain James
Machell bought it back in the mid-1800s. The Machell family descend from
Matus Catalus (456AD) a Roman Centurion at Kirbythore Roman fort near
Crackenthorpe. The Machell family papers dating back to 1100 are with the
Dean & Chapter of Carlisle. Thankyou for looking though Will.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Date: 05/18/06 12:46:58
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Huddleston and Greene

In a message dated 5/17/06 7:50:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< I have a Katherine Huddlestone who married John Machell of Crackenthorpe

Westmorland. His parents were William Machell who died in 1399 and
Margaret
Thornburgh. >>

It's not made any easier by the apparent use of Crackenthorpe as a surname!
I tried to search A2A and most of the references have nothing to do with the
Machell's as far as I can tell.

Also I can't seem to find *any* references to the Machell family prior to
about 1550ish which is odd. I suppose they went under a variant spelling,
but I
don't know what.

Will

John Higgins

Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MC

Legg inn av John Higgins » 18 mai 2006 06:57:01

I show Elizabeth Noel, the wife of Anthony Faunt, as the dau. of Andrew N.
and his 2nd wife Elizabeth Hopton, based on Nichols' Leics. She is,
however, not mentioned in the 1619 Leics visitation.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: William Faunt m. Isabel Sayer (Syor) and Richardson's MCA


In a message dated 5/17/06 12:51:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

Yes. Anthony Faunt who married Elizabeth Noel was the son of William
Faunt according to VCH Leics, Vol 5. pp 193-213.

This Elizabeth Noel is called "daughter of Andrew Noel of Dalby, Leics."
At first I wanted to put her as a daughter to Sir Andrew Noel d 19 Oct
1607
(at Brooke, Rutland) but all his other children were born probably in the
1567-1605 time period and his daughter Elizabeth Noel, Countess of
Castlehaven
married the Earl of Castlehaven in 1611 and as late as 1638 was still
styled
"Countess of Castlehaven" when the Duchess of Lennox petitioned the
council, on
her behalf to have her safeguarded, because Elizabeth has apparently gone
insane.

So I believe that this Elizabeth (Noel) Faunt must be a dau of this Sir
Andrew Noel's father, also called Andrew Noel of Dalby, thus making her a
dau of
Elizabeth Hopton.

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson


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