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Renia

Re: de Brus Questions

Legg inn av Renia » 26 apr 2006 13:23:52

Chris Phillips wrote:
I wrote:

I agree it wasn't prevalent, but I have sometimes seen it used where

there

was a sequence of men with the same name.


Renia replied:

I haven't. I've seen senior and junior, and the elder and the younger.


I see John Ravilious has posted a couple of examples of people being
specified by ordinal numbers.

Yes, I've seen that now.


To add to those, the various Peters de Mauley seem to have been
distinguished in this way. CP refers to a proof of age mentioning Peter "le
quart" (vol. viii, p. 562, note h), and Douglas Richardson has posted here
(19 November 2005) an Access to Archives abstract of a charter mentioning
Peter "de Malo Lacu Sexto".


I wrote:

In the YAS account quoted, the "third" is definitely attached to Peter,

not

to the land. The difference would be clear in the Latin original, so I

think

the assumption has to be that it's Peter III unless the original shows
otherwise.


Renia replied:

I disagree with you. The rest of the passage refers to "the half
ploughland". It's THE third, a particular third, not any old third.
Possibly a third of a moiety, for example.


I meant that the punctuation of the English abstract attaches the "third" to
Peter, not to the land.

I see that, but only if there was a punctuation mark in the original.

Those who think it refers to the land are implying that there is a definite
error in the abstract. Errors can happen, of course, but I don't see that
anyone has produced any evidence that this is an error.

Chris Phillips


Chris Phillips

Re: de Brus Questions

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 26 apr 2006 13:35:41

I wrote:
I meant that the punctuation of the English abstract attaches the
"third" to
Peter, not to the land.

Renia replied:
I see that, but only if there was a punctuation mark in the original.


I wonder if we're talking at cross-purposes.

What I'm saying is that from the word endings in the original Latin text it
should have been clear what the "third" referred to. The English can be
ambiguous (punctuation aside), but the Latin shouldn't be.

The punctuation I mean is the punctuation in the published English abstract,
which makes it clear the author of that abstract understood the "third" to
refer to Peter. If that's not correct, there has been a definite error at
some point in going from the (unambiguous) Latin original to the published
English abstract.

Chris Phillips

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 apr 2006 14:35:04

I rather suspect that one juvenile poster's bestowal upon another of the epithet "awful" is more likely an indication of his own lack of manners.

Well, I've never cared much for Mr. Lybbe-Powys-Lybbe. Too stuffy, too
snobby. Too concerned with ... boring heraldry.

But that's just my opinion!

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 apr 2006 14:41:07

any case, by the 1690s les mots de politesses in England were by and
large more refined and subtly attuned than in America

One could be forgiven for thinking that this is still the case,
although I rather suspect that one juvenile poster's bestowal upon

And, actually, speaking of extreme stuffery and snobbishness ...

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 15:20:13

John Brandon wrote:
any case, by the 1690s les mots de politesses in England were by and
large more refined and subtly attuned than in America

One could be forgiven for thinking that this is still the case,
although I rather suspect that one juvenile poster's bestowal upon

And, actually, speaking of extreme stuffery and snobbishness ...

John, I don't much mind whether you think me stuffy, snobbish or awful,
but it would be nice to see you concentrate on mediaeval genealogy
(which you are good at) instead of insulting other posters and
embarrassing yourself by reminding us that, sometimes, you need to grow
up.

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 apr 2006 15:21:22

Until fairly recently in England, "Mrs" was an indication of rank rather than marital status.

Rank as a servant (cook or nanny to royal children, for instance),
rather than truly "high" rank ...

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 apr 2006 15:24:53

Oh Lord ... you have a strong tendency to moralize, don't you ...?

Matt Tompkins

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Matt Tompkins » 26 apr 2006 15:44:56

John Brandon wrote:
Well, I've never cared much for Mr. Lybbe-Powys-Lybbe. Too stuffy, too
snobby. Too concerned with ... boring heraldry.


Tim is in fact remarkably free from both stuffiness and snobbery - I've
always found him very down to earth, very practical and realistic in
his approach to genealogy (qualities reflected in his website, which
supplies brief details of just about everyone who was anyone among the
late medieval Buckinghamshire gentry with a minimum of searching).

And he's generous with his help.

Matt Tompkins

Renia

Re: de Brus Questions

Legg inn av Renia » 26 apr 2006 16:17:44

Chris Phillips wrote:
I wrote:

I meant that the punctuation of the English abstract attaches the

"third" to

Peter, not to the land.


Renia replied:

I see that, but only if there was a punctuation mark in the original.



I wonder if we're talking at cross-purposes.

What I'm saying is that from the word endings in the original Latin text it
should have been clear what the "third" referred to. The English can be
ambiguous (punctuation aside), but the Latin shouldn't be.

The punctuation I mean is the punctuation in the published English abstract,
which makes it clear the author of that abstract understood the "third" to
refer to Peter. If that's not correct, there has been a definite error at
some point in going from the (unambiguous) Latin original to the published
English abstract.

Ah, now we're in agreement. :-)

Renia

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Renia » 26 apr 2006 16:18:04

John Brandon wrote:

I rather suspect that one juvenile poster's bestowal upon another of the epithet "awful" is more likely an indication of his own lack of manners.


Well, I've never cared much for Mr. Lybbe-Powys-Lybbe. Too stuffy, too
snobby. Too concerned with ... boring heraldry.

But that's just my opinion!

Charming.

Tony Hoskins

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 26 apr 2006 18:25:03

My "two cents".

I do note agree that it is "moralizing" to note someone's unjustified
bad manners. I agree with Matt that Tim is a remarkably knowledgeable,
unstuffy, and generous presence here.



Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 apr 2006 18:52:08

In the Provincial Court Proceedings of 28 Apr. 1658 see Mrs. Jane Elltonhead
Fenwick v. Henry Pope def., in which the plaintiff claimed Pope laid claim
to her cattle mark and also killed one of her steers (see Archives of
Maryland 41, p. 70).

http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/megaf ... 1--70.html

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 19:32:02

_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1145543853)

I found in a 1658 Maryland court case an instance where Jane (Eltonhead)
Moryson-Fenwick used her maiden name and married name, which seemed to me almost
a unique occurrence in Maryland at that time.

In the Provincial Court Proceedings of 28 Apr. 1658 see Mrs. Jane Elltonhead
Fenwick v. Henry Pope def., in which the plaintiff claimed Pope laid claim
to her cattle mark and also killed one of her steers (see Archives of
Maryland 41, p. 70).

John Brandon

Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed proprietor"?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 apr 2006 20:00:19

Well, maybe "somewhat" below the level of "Mrs."

I agree with you about Robert Abell, though-- doubtful.


"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
"'goodwife' had a certain level of respectability as a title, slightly
below 'Mrs.'"

I strongly disagree with the "slightly" part of that statement. Part of
my discomfort with the identification of Robert Abell of Rehoboth, MA
with the Robert, son of George Abell, of the gentry family of Derbyshire
and Leicestershire, is that Robert of Rehoboth's wife Joanna was - if
memory serves - referred to as "Goody/Goodwife" Abell. In many years of
working in 17th century American and English sources, I can't remember
another instance of "Goody/Goodwife" being applied to other than those
in humble circumstances.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

pj.evans

Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed proprietor"?

Legg inn av pj.evans » 26 apr 2006 20:07:21

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
"'goodwife' had a certain level of respectability as a title, slightly
below 'Mrs.'"

I strongly disagree with the "slightly" part of that statement. Part of
my discomfort with the identification of Robert Abell of Rehoboth, MA
with the Robert, son of George Abell, of the gentry family of Derbyshire
and Leicestershire, is that Robert of Rehoboth's wife Joanna was - if
memory serves - referred to as "Goody/Goodwife" Abell. In many years of
working in 17th century American and English sources, I can't remember
another instance of "Goody/Goodwife" being applied to other than those
in humble circumstances.

The wife of Richard Max[s]on, a blacksmith in RI, was referred to as

'Goody' or 'Goodwife'. *Definitely* below 'landed proprietor'!

P J Evans

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: The Irrelevant, Irrévélant &, yes, Irreverent, & misname

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 26 apr 2006 20:21:01

----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

----- Original Message -----
From: "RAY Montgomery" <montereng1@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'
|
| "RAY Montgomery" wrote:

| > excuse me please, Yes I live in utah, and yes I am a member of the church of
| > jesus christ of latter day saints. These things I have never denighed.
|
| You would be more convincing if you were literate.
|
| > And
| > Yes I work with the ute indians.

Ute Indians

| > In investment circles, as friends, at work,
| > and when I was at school. I have been close with many of them. Very close,
| > and lived in thier homes.
| > I have also been involved with the blackfeet, navaho, indian tribes of
| > northern minnisota and wisconson and polyanean people.


Blackfoot, [and] Navaho,[sic] Indian tribes of Norrthern Minnisota and Wisconsin[,] and Polyanna-ish people[s].


| > [New ¶]The Church of jesus


Even if he isn't the _Messiach_, he deserves to be capitalized.


| > Christ of latter day saints


Latter Day Saints

| > is the fasted


Opposite of 'fatted'? Never thought that fasting was the most attractive part of any Church. Still , _chacun à son goût, (ou faute de cela)_.


| > growing Christain religion, why


religion. Why? Because


| > because the peoples I just mentioned have as there


their


| > core beliefs the very
| > legends that we have discussed. Thus said,


Thus,


| > they accept it


them


| > readily. There
| > are more members in south america,


South America,


| > and the islands in the pacific ocean than
| > that


Pacific Ocean than


| > live in other parts of the world.
| > You should read the book, the legends, before you criticize! You have stated
| > things that are completely contrary to the book, having not read the book or
| > the text. What I have told you is factual and true.
| > I have seen the treasure bags of the these tribes, I have talked to their
| > elders, and I am familiar with the legends.
| > Please do the same.
|
|
| Please take this to a group where it would be relevant - this is a
| discussion group for mediaeval genealogy. Thanks.
|
|


Ray, I think that typing errors, _supra_, are not illiteracy. Rather, they seem, to me, to be an indicator that you are letting your passion get in the way of your thinking, your heart is ruling your head. Fine, great, terrific, during services. Not so much when discoursing with scholars and academics, ('bluestockings' or not). Your fervor is getting in the way of your suasion.
I have suggested how David Rohl could at least become appropriate for a sister genealogy list. This thread could at least become genealogical IF there were some relevant lines discussed. But, this list is European, not Oceanic, nor Pre-Columbian, in its orientation, (sorry, bad pun intended). What I have always found to be a very saliant point against the _Book of Mormon_ is that there are no corelations to independantly verifiable happenings. The genealogies contained therein do not even connect to the incomprehensibly vast holdings in the LDS vaults. All the other sacred writings that we have are substantiated, (atleast in part), by history, anthropology and/or archæology.
In short, this thread is little or nothing more than religious witnessing. It belongs in an unrelated group, on an unrelated list. alt.religion.fringe, maybe?
All due respect,
Ford


|
| > Ray
|
|
| >>From: lostcooper@yahoo.com
| >> To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
| >> Subject: Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'
| >> Date: 25 Apr 2006 22:25:10 -0700
| >>
| >> What do you mean "work with"? You mean, like a missionary? How
| >> traditional are the individuals with whom you work? And, of course, you
| >> denied the "Mormon" connection yet look where you are located...(for
| >> the sake of those unfamiliar with the area, the Ute people are located
| >> in northern Colorado, Utah and parts of Nevada..Bronwen
| >
|

Tony Hoskins

Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed proprietor"?

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 26 apr 2006 20:55:03

"'goodwife' had a certain level of respectability as a title, slightly
below 'Mrs.'"

I strongly disagree with the "slightly" part of that statement. Part of
my discomfort with the identification of Robert Abell of Rehoboth, MA
with the Robert, son of George Abell, of the gentry family of Derbyshire
and Leicestershire, is that Robert of Rehoboth's wife Joanna was - if
memory serves - referred to as "Goody/Goodwife" Abell. In many years of
working in 17th century American and English sources, I can't remember
another instance of "Goody/Goodwife" being applied to other than those
in humble circumstances.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Hoskins

Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed prorietor"?

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 26 apr 2006 21:00:03

"Goodman": male equivalent (and necessarily social equal) of
"Goodwife".

Tony

James Dempster

Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed prorietor"?

Legg inn av James Dempster » 26 apr 2006 21:03:21

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:58:59 +0000 (UTC), hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us
("Tony Hoskins") wrote:

"Goodman": male equivalent (and necessarily social equal) of
"Goodwife".

Yes but a "goodman" was not neccessarily of humble status. In Scotland
certainly up to the 17th century a goodman could be of landed status
but not holding directly of the crown.

He would have been considered of lesser status (though not
neccessarily wealth) than a laird holding directly of the crown, but
he would not have been seen as particularly humble by the general
population.

A little outside the OT period for s.g.m but Patrick Gordon of
Auchleuchries (Peter the Great's general) was goodman of Auchleuchries
and the Dukes of Gordon were sometimes disparagingly known as "the
Goodmen of the Bog" because their main seat at Gordon Castle (formerly
Bog of Gight) was originally not held directly of the crown.

James
James Dempster

You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.

Gjest

Re: The Irrelevant, Irrévélant &, y es, Irreverent, & misnam

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 21:07:02

In a message dated 4/26/06 11:19:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

<< | > I have also been involved with the blackfeet, navaho, indian tribes of
| > northern minnisota and wisconson and polyanean people.


Blackfoot, [and] Navaho,[sic] Indian tribes of Norrthern Minnisota and
Wisconsin[,] and Polyanna-ish people[s]. >>

I believe it's still spelt Minnesota.
Do I win the spelling bee? I have a spot left for one more gold star in my
book.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: The Irrelevant, Irrévélant &, y es, Irreverent, & misnam

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 21:08:03

In a message dated 4/26/06 11:19:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

<< | > growing Christain religion, why >>

Ford! You missed another one "Christian"
Will "Spelling Bee Champion" Johnson

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 21:25:03

In a message dated 4/26/2006 1:52:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

In the Provincial Court Proceedings of 28 Apr. 1658 see Mrs. Jane
Elltonhead
Fenwick v. Henry Pope def., in which the plaintiff claimed Pope laid claim
to her cattle mark and also killed one of her steers (see Archives of
Maryland 41, p. 70).

_http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/megafile/msa/speccol/sc2900/sc2908/000001/0
00041/html/am41--70.html_
(http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/megaf ... 1--70.html)




This is very significant if taken in respect of the Eltonhead family. Jane
Eltonhead was the daughter of Richard Eltonhead [1582-1664] by his wife Ann
Sutton [a practicing Catholic who with her mother Anne Stanley had been brought
up on charges repeatedly]. These are their children:

1. William Eltonhead [1616-March 25, 1655]. He married Jane Gerrard.
2. Agatha Eltonhead married (1) Luke Stubbins (2) Ralph Wormeley (3) Sir
Henry Chicheley of Lancaster Cty, VA.
3. Eleanor Eltonhead married (1) William Brocas, (2) Col. John Carter of
Lancaster Cty., VA
4. Martha Eltonhead married Edwin Conway of Lancaster Cty, VA.
5. Alice Eltonhead married (1) Rowland Burnham, (2)Henry Corbyn of Lancaster
Cty., VA
6. Ann Eltonhead married Edward Wall
7. Katherine Eltonhead married Thomas Meare
8. Elizabeth Eltonhead married Henry Parham
9. Richard Eltonhead died in infancy
10. Jane Eltonhead married (1) Robert Morryson, (2) Cuthbert Fenwick.
11. James Eltonhead
12. Edward Eltonhead died in infancy.
13. Henry Eltonhead
14. John Eltonhead died in infancy.

Jane Eltonhead Fenwick left 1/2 her personal estate in her will of 1660
[Maryland Calendar of Wills, Vol. I, pp-14-27] to the Roman Catholic Church.
This brings into question the religious disposition of her siblings who were
married into some of the most important families in Virginia.

Please note that Sir Henry Chichley, a 1st cousin to Diana Skipwith and also
personally close to her brother Harry Skipwith the 2nd Baronet Prestwold.,
is the third husband of Agatha Eltonhead.

Eleanor Eltonhead married as her second husband Col. John Carter for whom
Diana Skipwith witnessed 2 of the 1655 deeds using her maiden name.

Both Col. John Carter and Edwin Conway were Godparents to two of Capt.
Thomas Carter and Katherine Dale's children. Also Letitica Corbyn [later wife of
Richard Lee] stood as Godmother to Edward Carter, eldest son with Diana
Skipwith Dale, Edward Dale and Edwin Conway.

An Elizabeth Eltonhead married Edward Acton, step-son of Sir Henry Skipwith,
on Oct. 4, 1660 at St. Dunstan's, Stepney in London. We know only that she
was born ca. 1635 [age 25 at the time of marriage] residing in Woolrich, Kent
never before married and both her parents were deceased. Her exact
relationship to the Eltonhead family of Lancashire is unknown.

The above suit occurred on April 25, 1658 which is exactly the same time
period that is involved with the Skipwith deeds and also as shown above the
Skipwiths and Eltonheads were connected. The Eltonheads like the Skipwiths had
no ready money to provide dowries for their daughters. All of the Eltonhead
women who came to North America were married to well to do planters at least 10
years there senior. Both Richard Eltonhead and Sir Henry Skipwith were
royalists and both were fined as such by the Cromwellian Government.

From available records in the Calendar of State Papers and the early deeds
available for Lancaster County and Northumberland County, Virginia it appears
that the Eltonhead sisters were among the numerous passengers of the 13 ships
that left England for Virginia in October 1652. It is in this same group of
ships that Diana and Grey Skipwith are believed to have sailed.

This seems to be the most unusual use of a maiden name so far in the
documents found. This has a bearing on the Skipwith deeds and Diana's signature.

Best regards,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 21:50:02

In a message dated 4/26/06 12:24:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ClaudiusI0@aol.com writes:

<< Please note that Sir Henry Chichley, a 1st cousin to Diana Skipwith and
also
personally close to her brother Harry Skipwith the 2nd Baronet Prestwold.,
is the third husband of Agatha Eltonhead. >>

Could you specify the exact nature in which Diana Skipwith and Henry Chichley
are 1st cousins? I don't appear to have anything on this.
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: de Brus Questions

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 21:55:03

In a message dated 4/22/06 8:07:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
WatsonJohnM@gmail.com writes:

<< When searching for something else entirely on Google Books, I came
across this deed, undated, in a volume of the Yorkshire Archeological
Journal:

Skelton-in-Cleveland:
Quitclaim by Alice and Helena, Agnes and Hauisia sisters, to Peter de
Bruis the third, of all their land of Scelton >>

I found the source mentioned above by John, in google books.
Unfortunately, it is in parts, this part being a "continuation" of an article
started in a previous volume.
I cannot seem to find that previous volume, and the "end" of this article has
no comments.

So it's impossible to see what the nature and scope of these extracts was
supposed to be. Were they found bound in some ancient work, were they found
loose underneath a parish register... or what? The author A E Ellis doesn't add
any sort of information that could help a person track down the originals to
see what the Latin said.

Also at the moment A2A seems to be offline :) I was going to try to search it
in various ways to see if this deed made it into that resource yet or not.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 22:05:02

In a message dated 4/26/06 10:43:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us writes:

<< KATHERINE HUDDESFIELD, married before 22 Oct 1499 to SIR EDMUND CAREW
(d. 1513) of Mohun Ottery, Devon, feudal Baron Carew. >>


Yes Anthony, it was certainly well before 1499. I think I had recently
posted (or at least intended to post) the marriage contract which is dated 26 Dec
1478 and anticipates the marriage will take place 16 Jan 1479. So that puts
Katherine at least a full generation earlier.

But this cannot be why Douglas pushed her back to a first marriage. It must
be that Douglas has the will of Katherine (de Courtenay) Huddesfield perhaps.
Or in some other way has knowledge that Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew is not
her daughter.

At any rate certainly her son William Carew was born by 1487 since his own
son George Carew was b abt 1504 (http://www.tudorplace.com.ar)

Sir William Carew's wife Joan Courtenay was older than himself since Joan's
mother Margaret Bonville had to be born by 1427 when her own mother Margaret
Grey was dead. Since Margaret Bonville was not having children at the age of
60, it must be that Joan Courtenay was born at least 10, and at most 20 years
before her husband Sir William Carew.

But all of that chronology pushes Katherine Huddesfield to being at least 10
years and possibly as much as 30 (!!) years before her sister or half-sister
Elizabeth (Huddesfield) Poyntz.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 22:09:02

Dear Will,

Sir Henry Chichley is the son of Dorothy Kempe and Sir Thomas Chicheley of
Wimpole. Dorothy Kempe is the sister of Amy Kempe , 1st wife of Sir Henry
Skipwith.

The relationship between Sir Henry Chichley and his cousin Harry Skipwith is
shown by the following:

Calendar of State Papers, Domestic Series - Charles I, Addenda 1625-1649
[miscellaneous papers] ed. W. Noel Sainsbury, Esq. London 1857 page 676:

March 21, 1645
Dunkirk
273. J. Barker to Henry Chicheley. When I was a prisoner at Peterhouse in
London, I did several times salute you, but know not if my letters found the
right way to you. I hope Harry Skipwith told you that we remembered you in such
liquor as our jail afforded. The story of your adventures and successes
would be very welcome, and would find me Chez Mons. Hobson, marchant anglois, a
Bruxelles. If your brother Thomas Chicheley be with you, give my service to
him. I have heard of great advantages and honors that have fallen to your lot,
to which I cordially wish a daily increase. If our old comrade Dick Ryding be
there he has my respects. Vale [1 p.]

This was delivered in a series of three letters. The first was addressed to
William Cobbe of Oxford. J. Barker recommends the messenger carrying these
letters as "a loyal subject and good servant to the King, and too honest to
live among rebels." He states that he is in the company of Sir Robert Rookewood,
Sir Edward Sullyard, Sir Francis Mannock and diverse other friends. He
apparently is getting ready to sail from Kent to Brussels where he will stay
with Mr. Hobson, an English merchant in Brussels. He asks William Cobbe to
deliver the second letter to Henry Chicheley if he "be alive."

Henry Chichley was one of the first royalist refugees in Virginia:

Calendar of State Papers, Colonial Series, Vol. 1 1574-1660, Ed. W. Noel
Sainsbury, Esq. London 1860: Reprinted Kraus Reprint Ltd. Vaduz 1964,
Pages 337-338:

April 6, 1650 Order of the Council of State. Sir Henry Chickley [Chicheley],
upon taking the engagement to have a pass for Virginia; or, upon giving
security to do nothing prejudicial to the present government, to be released to
go out of town, and out of the lines of communication [ INTERREGNUM, Entry
Bk., Vol. XCII., p. 177]

April 9, 1650 Licence for Sir Henry Chicheley, Thos. Cox, and Robert Pigge,
to pass to Virginia [Minute. INTERREGNUM, Entry Bk., Vol. CXXXII., p. 8]

MichaelAnne

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed proprietor"?

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 26 apr 2006 22:27:04

pj.evans wrote:
"Tony Hoskins" wrote:

"'goodwife' had a certain level of respectability as a title, slightly
below 'Mrs.'"

I strongly disagree with the "slightly" part of that statement. Part of
my discomfort with the identification of Robert Abell of Rehoboth, MA
with the Robert, son of George Abell, of the gentry family of Derbyshire
and Leicestershire, is that Robert of Rehoboth's wife Joanna was - if
memory serves - referred to as "Goody/Goodwife" Abell. In many years of
working in 17th century American and English sources, I can't remember
another instance of "Goody/Goodwife" being applied to other than those
in humble circumstances.


The wife of Richard Max[s]on, a blacksmith in RI, was referred to as
'Goody' or 'Goodwife'. *Definitely* below 'landed proprietor'!

This implies a distinction between 'the trades' and 'landed proprietor'
that simply did not exist in New England. It would very much surprise
me if Richard Max[s]on, a blacksmith, was not also a landowner.

taf

Tony Hoskins

Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed prorietor"?

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 26 apr 2006 23:46:02

Hello James,

Thanks for your words about the meaning of "goodman" in Scotland. It
meant something quite different in England.

Reminds me of something: "James V was fond of travelling about in
disguise among his people. Dressed very plainly, and calling himself the
Goodman of Ballengiech, he used to wander about quite alone, often
having strange adventures."

One can only wonder!

Regards,

Tony

Gjest

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 apr 2006 23:57:02

In a message dated 4/26/06 2:44:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< But PA3 says Katherine was "born about 1478 (aged 21
and more at father's death)", while RPA amends this slightly to eliminate
the "and more" and says simply "born about 1478 (aged 21 in 1499)". If RPA
and PA3 are correct, this was an extreme case of a child marriage - even an
infant marriage....Something seems wrong here. [Especially since her
daughter Katherine married a man born ca. 1471] >>


I don't have daughter Katherine's husband as born so early.
Rather I have him, Philip Champernoun of Dartington, Devon born abt 1495, and
the son of
John Champernoun of Modbury and Margaret Courtenay.
This Margaret daughter of Phillip Courtenay of Molland (b abt 1432 d 1489)

For some reason I had Philip of "Darlington" but after banging my head
against that one, I believe it's really "DarTINGton"

On a P.S. note, there are rumours and suggestions that the Kat (Champernoun)
Ashley we've spoken of recently was actually the *sister* of this Philip and
not his daughter at all. After searching A2A numerous times under numerous
methods of finding "Kat Ashley", and all manner of variants I have come up with
exactly squat. That's a technical term.

I would have thought that since she was Elizabeth's nurse-maid/governess for
at least 10 years, that she'd appear in some documents, but so far not.

If indeed Kat Ashley is the aunt of Philip then that throws Joan
(Champernoun) Denny also into a boat with her husband Anthony Denny. Was Anthony really
the brother-in-law of Kat Ashley? Or is this an assumption made by certain
editors after placing the two Kat's as sisters? There is no chronologic problem
yet, in my database with allowing Joan Champernoun to marry first Robert
Gamage of Coity and second Anthony Denny. On the other hand, there is no problem
with allowing a Joan to marry Robert Gamage, and her *aunt* to marry Anthony
Denny.

I just simply don't have enough material yet, to make the case one way or the
other.

Will Johnson

Tony Hoskins

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 27 apr 2006 00:09:02

Hello Doug,

Thanks very much for the information.

Also, many thanks to Will Johnson, who said,

"But all of that chronology pushes Katherine Huddesfield to being at
least 10 years and possibly as much as 30 (!!) years before her sister
or half-sister Elizabeth (Huddesfield) Poyntz."

In light of this, and perhaps some more information you might have
gathered or considered since publication, do you still feel confident
that Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew was 1) daughter of Sir William
Huddesfield (d. 1499) and, if so, 2) was his daughter by Jennet Bosum?

Many thanks for your thoughts.

Tony



Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Will of Thomas Chichley

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 00:16:02

In a message dated 4/26/06 2:47:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ClaudiusI0
writes:

<< [Sir Thomas Chichley, of Wimple, or Wimpole, Cambridgeshire, was the
father of Sir Thomas Chichley, Master of the Ordinance, and of Sir Henry Chichley,
who served as an officer in the Royal Army during the Civil War, came to
Virginia in 1649 and as Burgess, Councillor, Deputy-Governor and Governor, was
long prominent in the Colony. He married Agatha (Eltonhead) widow of Ralph
Wormeley, of "Rosegill," VA, and died Feb. 5, 1682. See this Magazine III, 39;
XVII, 144. His mother was Dorothy, daughter of Sir Thomas Kempe, of Olantigh,
Kent, and sister of Mary, wife of Sir Dudley Digges, of Chilham, two
governors of Virginia. Sir Henry Chichley and Edward Digges were first cousins.....]

This is part of a private email that MichaelAnne sent me, and it makes an
awful lot more sense, than where I had had Mary Kempe previously, towit, as a
daughter of Thomas Kempe and Amy Moyle per this message from JohnR below

Subj: Re: Mary Kempe's Mother
Date: 2/1/06 10:15:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: cjrees@gmail.com (JohnR)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

apparently from her tomb: "Mary Kempe, Lady Digges Daughyer and Coheire of
Sr. Thomas Kempe of Olentigh Knight by Sir Thomas Moyle's Daughter and Coheire,
Son of Sir Thomas Kempe Knight, by an heir of Brown and Arundel, Son of Sir
William Kempe Knight, who by Emelyn daughter and coheir of Sir Valentine
Chichley and Phillipa daughter and heire of Sir Robert Chiche, Mayor of London, and
brother to Henry the Archbishop, was son of Sir Thomas Kempe Knight, nephew to
Thomas Kempe, Bishop of London, the nephew of John Kempe Archbishop of York,
then of Canterbury, Cardinal, Lord Chancellor, Lyes here buried to-gether with
Francis her 4th and Richard her eighth son" Hitchin-Kemp, Frederick. A general
history of the Kemp and Kempe families of Great Britain. London, 1902


It may be that whoever copied this inscription or whatever it is, skipped a
line in the original or misread it.
I now have that Mary Kempe is a *grand* daughter of Amy Moyle. Sir Thomas
Kempe Knt b abt 1551 is supposed to be a son to this Amy Moyle and it would
hardly be possible she would also be mother to Mary Kempe, if Mary was really
baptised 14 Mar 1590 at Wye.

Will Johnson

John Higgins

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?

Legg inn av John Higgins » 27 apr 2006 00:47:02

I mis-spoke [or mis-typed] when I said that Katherine Carew, dau. of
Katherine Huddesfield, mar. a man born ca. 1471. Actually Sir Philip
Champernoun is said by both RPA and PA3 to have been b. ca. 1479 (aged 24 at
his father's death in 1503). I show Sir Philip to be of Modbury, while his
younger son Sir Arthur was of Dartington - don't know how accurate that is.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?


In a message dated 4/26/06 2:44:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

But PA3 says Katherine was "born about 1478 (aged 21
and more at father's death)", while RPA amends this slightly to eliminate
the "and more" and says simply "born about 1478 (aged 21 in 1499)". If
RPA
and PA3 are correct, this was an extreme case of a child marriage - even
an
infant marriage....Something seems wrong here. [Especially since her
daughter Katherine married a man born ca. 1471]


I don't have daughter Katherine's husband as born so early.
Rather I have him, Philip Champernoun of Dartington, Devon born abt 1495,
and
the son of
John Champernoun of Modbury and Margaret Courtenay.
This Margaret daughter of Phillip Courtenay of Molland (b abt 1432 d 1489)

For some reason I had Philip of "Darlington" but after banging my head
against that one, I believe it's really "DarTINGton"


[snip]

Will Johnson


Vickie Elam White

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 27 apr 2006 00:48:25

MichaelAnne,

Re: William Eltonhead (1616-1655). My records show that his wife was
Jane Fenwick (1618-1659), sister of Cuthbert Fenwick. She married 1) Capt.
Thomas Smith 2) Capt. Phillip Taylor and 3) William Eltonhead.

In an article titled "Gerard's Daughters" (Md. Historical Mag., v. 68, pp.
443-450, 1973), John Walton pointed out that there is no evidence that she
was a Gerard, and that "it is not likely that a woman who had two husbands
and four children before 1649 was a legitimate daughter of a man who was
born in 1609 and married in 1629." Thomas Gerard's marriage covenant was
dated 21 Sept 1629, making the birth of a child before 1630 most unlikely.
So, if legitimately a daughter of Thomas Gerard, Jane would have been
married and had two children by the time she was no more than 15 years old.

As for William Eltonhead's parentage, I show he was a son of William
Eltonhead and Ann Bowers, but with no documentation. Could you help
straighten me out on this point?

Vickie Elam White

<ClaudiusI0@aol.com> wrote in message news:3ea.77675e.318122e0@aol.com...
In a message dated 4/26/2006 1:52:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

In the Provincial Court Proceedings of 28 Apr. 1658 see Mrs. Jane
Elltonhead
Fenwick v. Henry Pope def., in which the plaintiff claimed Pope laid
claim
to her cattle mark and also killed one of her steers (see Archives of
Maryland 41, p. 70).


_http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/megafile/msa/speccol/sc2900/sc2908/000001

/0

/000041/html/am41--70.html)
This is very significant if taken in respect of the Eltonhead family. Jane
Eltonhead was the daughter of Richard Eltonhead [1582-1664] by his wife
Ann
Sutton [a practicing Catholic who with her mother Anne Stanley had been
brought
up on charges repeatedly]. These are their children:

1. William Eltonhead [1616-March 25, 1655]. He married Jane Gerrard.
2. Agatha Eltonhead married (1) Luke Stubbins (2) Ralph Wormeley (3) Sir
Henry Chicheley of Lancaster Cty, VA.
3. Eleanor Eltonhead married (1) William Brocas, (2) Col. John Carter of
Lancaster Cty., VA
4. Martha Eltonhead married Edwin Conway of Lancaster Cty, VA.
5. Alice Eltonhead married (1) Rowland Burnham, (2)Henry Corbyn of
Lancaster
Cty., VA
6. Ann Eltonhead married Edward Wall
7. Katherine Eltonhead married Thomas Meare
8. Elizabeth Eltonhead married Henry Parham
9. Richard Eltonhead died in infancy
10. Jane Eltonhead married (1) Robert Morryson, (2) Cuthbert Fenwick.
11. James Eltonhead
12. Edward Eltonhead died in infancy.
13. Henry Eltonhead
14. John Eltonhead died in infancy.

Jane Eltonhead Fenwick left 1/2 her personal estate in her will of 1660
[Maryland Calendar of Wills, Vol. I, pp-14-27] to the Roman Catholic
Church.
This brings into question the religious disposition of her siblings who
were
married into some of the most important families in Virginia.

Please note that Sir Henry Chichley, a 1st cousin to Diana Skipwith and
also
personally close to her brother Harry Skipwith the 2nd Baronet Prestwold.,
is the third husband of Agatha Eltonhead.

Eleanor Eltonhead married as her second husband Col. John Carter for whom
Diana Skipwith witnessed 2 of the 1655 deeds using her maiden name.

Both Col. John Carter and Edwin Conway were Godparents to two of Capt.
Thomas Carter and Katherine Dale's children. Also Letitica Corbyn [later
wife of
Richard Lee] stood as Godmother to Edward Carter, eldest son with Diana
Skipwith Dale, Edward Dale and Edwin Conway.

An Elizabeth Eltonhead married Edward Acton, step-son of Sir Henry
Skipwith,
on Oct. 4, 1660 at St. Dunstan's, Stepney in London. We know only that
she
was born ca. 1635 [age 25 at the time of marriage] residing in Woolrich,
Kent
never before married and both her parents were deceased. Her exact
relationship to the Eltonhead family of Lancashire is unknown.

The above suit occurred on April 25, 1658 which is exactly the same time
period that is involved with the Skipwith deeds and also as shown above
the
Skipwiths and Eltonheads were connected. The Eltonheads like the
Skipwiths had
no ready money to provide dowries for their daughters. All of the
Eltonhead
women who came to North America were married to well to do planters at
least 10
years there senior. Both Richard Eltonhead and Sir Henry Skipwith were
royalists and both were fined as such by the Cromwellian Government.

From available records in the Calendar of State Papers and the early deeds
available for Lancaster County and Northumberland County, Virginia it
appears
that the Eltonhead sisters were among the numerous passengers of the 13
ships
that left England for Virginia in October 1652. It is in this same group
of
ships that Diana and Grey Skipwith are believed to have sailed.

This seems to be the most unusual use of a maiden name so far in the
documents found. This has a bearing on the Skipwith deeds and Diana's
signature.

Best regards,
MichaelAnne





Gjest

Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed proprietor"?

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 01:53:01

Dear P J,
I have a few landed proprietors in my ancestry whose social
status is at best questionable. Francis Small in 1657 purchased and had a deed
drawn up a considerable portion of land in Maine and New Hampshire known as
Casipic and sold 1/2 to John Phillips. in 1658 Small reaffirmed his deed
after George Cleeve sued him and lost. In 1669 He made over half of his land in
Ossipee to his good friend Major Shapleigh. Small is called in records
fisherman, Planter and Indian trader. nothing too high socially there, yet He had a
considerable piece of land.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Source : Noyes, Libby and Davis " Genealogical Dictionary of Maine and New
Hampshire" p 640

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 27 apr 2006 02:05:02

God, you're a rude bastard John. Try being a bit more stuffy. It might
make you more polite.
Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: John Brandon
Date: 04/26/06 23:07:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

I rather suspect that one juvenile poster's bestowal upon another of the
epithet "awful" is more likely an indication of his own lack of manners.


Well, I've never cared much for Mr. Lybbe-Powys-Lybbe. Too stuffy, too
snobby. Too concerned with ... boring heraldry.

But that's just my opinion!

Leo van de Pas

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 27 apr 2006 02:10:02

It only goes to show how he belongs in killfile's, he is in mine.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name


God, you're a rude bastard John. Try being a bit more stuffy. It might
make you more polite.
Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: John Brandon
Date: 04/26/06 23:07:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

I rather suspect that one juvenile poster's bestowal upon another of the
epithet "awful" is more likely an indication of his own lack of manners.

Well, I've never cared much for Mr. Lybbe-Powys-Lybbe. Too stuffy, too
snobby. Too concerned with ... boring heraldry.

But that's just my opinion!



Gjest

Re: Genealogics : Cassandra Skipwith, mother of Elizabeth Co

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 02:13:02

In a message dated 4/26/06 4:55:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< It also tells (very little) During the Civil Wars he had emigrated to
Virginia, in America, where he married and died, having succeeded to the
baronetage before 1663. His son the next baronet was William born about
1670. Also I have Grey/George's father's name wrong.
I have it as Thomas but it is Henry, according to the Complete Baronetage .

Leo I would exercise caution on the idea that George and Grey are the same
person. I think MichaelAnne might be able to comment on this, but for now I am
keeping these two seperate until we can confirm that the Colonial Families got
it right.

It could be a confusion at that point.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: More kinsfolk: Marguerite of France 's kinsman, the Bish

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 02:15:02

Dear Douglas,
According to a wikipedia article on Therouanne, the
Bishop in 1361 was Robert, son of Amadeus III, Count of Geneva and He became
Antipope under the name of Clement VII.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
More later, unless Someone else beats me to it.

Gjest

Re: More kinsfolk: Marguerite of France 's kinsman, the Bish

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 05:15:04

Dear Douglas and others,
According to Leo`s Genealogics
database which cites the Detlev Schwennicke edition of Europasche Stammtalfen II:
60, XI: 158


1 John I, the Old, Count of Bourgogne, Chalon and Auxerre married 1st Maud,
daughter of Hugh III, Duke of Burgundy and 2nd wife Beatrix d`Albon
2 Hugh, Count Palatine of Burgundy married Adelheid of Meran
3 Otto V, Count Palatine of Burgundy married Mahaut, heiress of Artois
4 Jeanne de Bourgogne married Philip V, King of France
5 Marguerite de France married Louis I, Count of Flanders

1 John I, the Old, Count of Bourgogne, Chalon and Auxerre married 3rd
Laurette de Commercy, daughter of Simon II, Seigneur de Commercy and Mathilde of
Saarbrucken
2 Agnes of Chalon married Amadee II, Count of Geneve
3 Guillaume III, Count of Geneve married Agnes, daughter of Count Amadeus V
of Savoy
4 Amadee III, Count of Geneve married Mahaut, daughter of Count Robert VII
of Auvergne and Boulogne
5 Robert de Geneve (Antipope under title of Clement VII)
(Marguerite was Robert de Geneve`s 3rd cousin, also of interest to listers
John I of Auxerre was a full brother of Beatrix, wife of Simon , Seigneur de
Joinville and mother of Geoffrey de Geneville, Lord Geneville)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

norenxaq

Re: The Irrelevant, � yes, Irreverent, & mis named, OT 'Je

Legg inn av norenxaq » 27 apr 2006 05:16:01

What I have always found to be a very saliant point against the _Book of Mormon_ is that there are no corelations to independantly verifiable happenings. The genealogies contained therein do not even connect to the incomprehensibly vast holdings in the LDS vaults. All the other sacred writings that we have are substantiated, (atleast in part), by history, anthropology and/or archæology.




are you implying that no mormon has made a genealogy linking his family
to those in the book of mormon?

|

Gjest

Re: The Irrelevant, _ yes, Irreverent, & mis named, OT 'Jesu

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 05:17:01

In a message dated 4/26/06 7:18:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

<< are you implying that no mormon has made a genealogy linking his family
to those in the book of mormon? >>

Are you implying it's possible?
There's a little problem of "no recorded documents" for about say fifteen
hundred years of that time period.

Will Johnson

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: The Irrelevant, Irrevelant &, yes, Irreverent, & misname

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 27 apr 2006 05:20:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <norenxaq@san.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: The Irrelevant, � yes, Irreverent, & misnamed, OT 'Jesus Dynasty'



What I have always found to be a very saliant point against the _Book of Mormon_ is that there are no corelations to independantly verifiable happenings. The genealogies contained therein do not even connect to the incomprehensibly vast holdings in the LDS vaults. All the other sacred writings that we have are substantiated, (atleast in part), by history, anthropology and/or archaeology.




are you implying that no mormon has made a genealogy linking his family
to those in the book of mormon?



Not implying. Stating out-right, to the best of my knowledge.

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: The Irrelevant, Irrevelent, &, yes, Irreverent, & misnam

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 27 apr 2006 05:23:02

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: The Irrelevant, _ yes, Irreverent, & mis named, OT 'Jesus Dynasty'


| In a message dated 4/26/06 7:18:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
| norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:
|
| << are you implying that no mormon has made a genealogy linking his family
| to those in the book of mormon? >>
|
| Are you implying it's possible?
| There's a little problem of "no recorded documents" for about say fifteen
| hundred years of that time period.
|
| Will Johnson

To my experience, impossibility has never been a bar to those submitting genealogies to the LDS collections. Or, rather, I should say, that it has never been seen as a reason to exclude such pedigrees, by those who collect them on behalf of the LDS.

Gjest

Re: The Irrelevant, Irrevelant &, yes, Irreverent, & misname

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 05:26:03

In a message dated 4/26/06 8:19:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

<< Not implying. Stating out-right, to the best of my knowledge. >>

It's an impossible task.

There are no known genealogical links, not even legendary ones, between the
Mayan, Aztec and Incan indians lines. The Book of Mormon doesn't supply those.
And there are no stated links that bring any of these lines to the present.

The Book of Mormon is mostly concerned with very ancient happenings in the
New World. No New World person from the book has been connected to any person
identified through archaeology. And even if they were, there are no documented
descendents from any ancient American Indian line.

Will Johnson

Patricia Junkin

Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed proprietor"?

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 27 apr 2006 14:09:02

In colonial America, was the term Goodwife not more closely associated with
the Puritan-Pilgrim colonies than that of Virginia and lower colonies where
I have not found, although it may exist, such a reference?
Pat

----------
From: "pj.evans" <pj.evans.gen@usa.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: "Goodwife", spouse of "landed proprietor"?
Date: Wed, 26, 2006, 3:07 PM



"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
"'goodwife' had a certain level of respectability as a title, slightly
below 'Mrs.'"

I strongly disagree with the "slightly" part of that statement. Part of
my discomfort with the identification of Robert Abell of Rehoboth, MA
with the Robert, son of George Abell, of the gentry family of Derbyshire
and Leicestershire, is that Robert of Rehoboth's wife Joanna was - if
memory serves - referred to as "Goody/Goodwife" Abell. In many years of
working in 17th century American and English sources, I can't remember
another instance of "Goody/Goodwife" being applied to other than those
in humble circumstances.

The wife of Richard Max[s]on, a blacksmith in RI, was referred to as
'Goody' or 'Goodwife'. *Definitely* below 'landed proprietor'!

P J Evans

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 27 apr 2006 14:40:36

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
It only goes to show how he belongs in killfile's, he is in mine.

As you're fond of pointing out, over and over. If I truly were beneath
contempt, you would never mention me ...

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 27 apr 2006 14:43:54

God, you're a rude bastard John. Try being a bit more stuffy. It might
make you more polite.

Merilyn Pedrick

At least I'm not a self-righteous Aussie heiffer ... !

"Love ya lots, miss ya bunches ... biyotch"

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 18:52:24

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

Jwc1870@aol.com writes:

married women could be Goodwife

Shortened to "Goody", leading some newly-minted genealogists to think this
was a proper name instead of a title.

Incidentally, there was a woman's Christian name current in 17th
century England which can cause some confusion in this regard, viz
Goodwith - I understand it was essentially a variant spelling of
Judith.

MA-R

Douglas Richardson

Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 apr 2006 18:58:56

Dear Tony ~

Sir Anthony Wagner covered the fascinating topic of social descent in
one or more of his books. Without checking the specific title(s), I
believe the books in question are English Genealogy (1960) and Pedigree
and Progress (1975), both of which are well worth reading. The "social
descent" of the family of Anne (Baynton) Batt is covered by one of
these books.

Wikipedia has a good biography of Sir Anthony Wagner at the following
weblink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Wagner

As indicated in the above mentioned biography, Sir Anthony always
"stressed the mobility of social life and class in the course of
English history, and in maintaining this view ran contrary to the
opinions of some professional English historians."

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
Social descent. This is an excellent case of social fluidity of a
uniquely English character. Try to imagine a parallel in Germany or
France!

Tony

Gjest

Re: Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 19:09:57

Douglas Richardson schrieb:

Dear Tony ~

Sir Anthony Wagner covered the fascinating topic of social descent in
one or more of his books. Without checking the specific title(s), I
believe the books in question are English Genealogy (1960) and Pedigree
and Progress (1975), both of which are well worth reading. The "social
descent" of the family of Anne (Baynton) Batt is covered by one of
these books.

It is English Genealogy, p 213 and Table II ("King & Innkeeper").
According to Wagner, Ferdinand Baynton was living in 1623; he was the
grandson maternally of Sir William Cavendish (d 1557) and thus
half-nephew of the 1st Earl of Devonshire (d 1626).

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 27 apr 2006 19:17:43

Nothing in the line as given in PA3 indicates any kind of "high-born"
status for Anne Baynton Batt. She was, apparently, the
great-granddaughter of a M.P. of a respectable Wiltshire gentry
family,
though her father, the youngest son of a younger son, worked for a
living in town and apparently held no manors or property outside of
it.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, --------Brad

One of her Weare _alias_ Browne ancestors was also M.P. (see P.W.
Hasler, _History of Parliament: House of Commons, 1558-1603_).

Tony Hoskins

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 27 apr 2006 19:26:02

Social descent. This is an excellent case of social fluidity of a
uniquely English character. Try to imagine a parallel in Germany or
France!

Tony

"Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com> 04/27/06 10:06AM
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:


It is curious that the "high-class" Ferdinand Baynton should have
been
an inn-keeper: not a terribly patrician undertaking in the early
17th
century. Do you happen to know the source for his having followed
such
a profession? I have only seen a PROCAT reference which calls him
"gentleman, of Salisbury" [E 44/140, dated 17 June 17 James I - i.e.
1619]

Dear Michael,

Per PA3 (pp. 69-70), Ferdinando Baynton, "Gent., of New Salisbury,
Wiltshire, innholder" was baptized at Bromham, Wiltshire 28 May 1566,
the third and youngest son of Henry Baynton, Esq., of Temple Rockley
(in Preshute) and Lavington Baynton (in Market Lavington), Wiltshire,
and Chelsea, Middlesex, and his wife Anne Cavendish. Henry Baynton
was, in turn, the fourth of five sons of Sir Edward Baynton, of
Bromham, M.P. (and the elder son by Sir Edward's 2nd wife Isabel
Leigh).

No death dates are provided for Henry Baynton and Anne Cavendish - the
last sentence on their potted bio is "In 1595 he sold the manor of
Temple Rockley (in Preshute) to the tenant, Thomas Hutchins." The
sources cited for Henry Baynton and Anne Cavendish are:

**'Jour. of the Derbyshire Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc.' 29 (1907): 81-102
[My guess is that this source has to do with the Cavendishes, since
the
Bayntons don't appear to have had anything to do with Derbyshire.]
**'Wiltshire Vis. Peds. 1623' (H.S.P. 105-6) (1954): 5-8 (Bainton
pedigree: "Henry Bainton de Co Wilts Ar: 4 filius=... filia Rici
Cavendish de Com Nott militis") [Note: this is in opposition to the
parentage for Anne that Douglas says in the potted bio: "daughter of
William Cavendish, Knt. of Northaw, Hertfordshire, and Chatsworth,
Derbyshire".]
**A.R. Wagner 'English Gen.' (1960): 182-183, Table II at end.
**W.G. Davis 'Anc. of Abel Lunt (1963): 244-246.
**'VCH Wiltshire' 8 (1965): 241-242; 10 (1975): 87-88; 11 (1980): 8;
12
(1983): 174.

I have seen none of the above sources.

PA3 states that Ferdinando Baynton "became an innholder through the
inheritance of his wife from her grandfather, William Weare alias
Browne, innholder of Salisbury." No death dates are provided for
Ferdinando or for his wife "married about 1598 Joan Weare alias
Browne,
widow of John Hinckley, of Salisbury, Wiltshire, and daughter of John
Weare alias Browne, of Calne, Wiltshire." The last sentence in their
potted bio is "Ferdinando Baynton, Gent., was living 4 Nov. 1616."

I don't have a copy of page 70 in PA3, but I handwrote that one of the
sources cited for this couple (I don't know if it was the only source)
is:

**'Genealogist' n.s. 24 (1908): 131.

I have not seen that source either.

None of the above sources are primary - the closest being the 1623
Visitation Baynton pedigree, which has error. Nor were any of the
sources published since 1970, except for the VCH Wiltshire volumes, so
there does not appear to have been any recent research on this line,
and it needs to double-checked.

Nothing in the line as given in PA3 indicates any kind of "high-born"
status for Anne Baynton Batt. She was, apparently, the
great-granddaughter of a M.P. of a respectable Wiltshire gentry
family,
though her father, the youngest son of a younger son, worked for a
living in town and apparently held no manors or property outside of
it.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, --------Brad

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 20:09:30

John Brandon schrieb:

God, you're a rude bastard John. Try being a bit more stuffy. It might
make you more polite.

Merilyn Pedrick

At least I'm not a self-righteous Aussie heiffer ... !

"Love ya lots, miss ya bunches ... biyotch"

Interesting. It's rather pathetic to see an adult exhibit such
attention-seeking behaviour on a specialised research forum.
Unfortunately, the lack of judgment it manifests also calls into
question the validity of your research conclusions as well - so your
potentially valuable genealogical contributions should probably be
subjected to an additional level of critical review before acceptance.
Thanks for warning us.

Gjest

Re: Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 20:15:02

"Tony Hoskins" schrieb:

Illustration of the social fluidity in re: Ann (Baynton) Batt. I have
always been intrigued by the fact that Anne's father, Ferdinando Baynton
(1566-aft. 1615), gent., innkeeper, was not only a half-nephew of
William Cavendish, 1st Earl of Devonshire but also a half great-nephew
of Queen Katherine Howard (1522-1542), Henry VIII's 5th queen. Pretty
dramatic social "slip-sliding"!

Just a thought: if, as Brad has pointed out, Baynton inherited a
public-house through his wife, perhaps he merely owned the property and
derived income from it without carrying out a trade himself - this
would not be inconsistent with the grant connected with wine (e.g. many
contemporary noblemen profited from trade grants, monopolies etc);
additionally, the PROCAT reference cited above does refer to him as a
"gentleman".

MA-R

JDUVALL

RE: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av JDUVALL » 27 apr 2006 20:28:01

I think if may have been less uncommon in France than is generally
believed, at least amongst what, for lack of a better term, one might
call the lesser (provincial) nobility. The following article address
the issue, to some extent: Gayle K. Brunelle's "Dangerous Liaisons:
Mesalliance and Early Modern French Noblewomen," *French Historical
Studies,* vol. 19, no. 1, (Spring 1995): 75-109. For those with access
to academic libraries, it's available in JSTOR. This is certainly the
documented case (albeit the research has not been published in English,
at least not any scholarly fashion) for one of my own Huguenot ancestors
-- both of his grandmothers were members of noble families (one married
a lawyer the other a minister) -- who arrived in Virginia in 1700.

Jeff Duvall
Indy
jeffery@iquest.net
jduvall@iupui.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Hoskins [mailto:hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us]
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:21 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Social descent. This is an excellent case of social fluidity of a
uniquely English character. Try to imagine a parallel in Germany or
France!

Tony

"Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com> 04/27/06 10:06AM
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:


It is curious that the "high-class" Ferdinand Baynton should have
been
an inn-keeper: not a terribly patrician undertaking in the early
17th
century. Do you happen to know the source for his having followed
such
a profession? I have only seen a PROCAT reference which calls him
"gentleman, of Salisbury" [E 44/140, dated 17 June 17 James I - i.e.
1619]

Dear Michael,

Per PA3 (pp. 69-70), Ferdinando Baynton, "Gent., of New Salisbury,
Wiltshire, innholder" was baptized at Bromham, Wiltshire 28 May 1566,
the third and youngest son of Henry Baynton, Esq., of Temple Rockley
(in Preshute) and Lavington Baynton (in Market Lavington), Wiltshire,
and Chelsea, Middlesex, and his wife Anne Cavendish. Henry Baynton
was, in turn, the fourth of five sons of Sir Edward Baynton, of
Bromham, M.P. (and the elder son by Sir Edward's 2nd wife Isabel
Leigh).

No death dates are provided for Henry Baynton and Anne Cavendish - the
last sentence on their potted bio is "In 1595 he sold the manor of
Temple Rockley (in Preshute) to the tenant, Thomas Hutchins." The
sources cited for Henry Baynton and Anne Cavendish are:

**'Jour. of the Derbyshire Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc.' 29 (1907): 81-102
[My guess is that this source has to do with the Cavendishes, since
the
Bayntons don't appear to have had anything to do with Derbyshire.]
**'Wiltshire Vis. Peds. 1623' (H.S.P. 105-6) (1954): 5-8 (Bainton
pedigree: "Henry Bainton de Co Wilts Ar: 4 filius=... filia Rici
Cavendish de Com Nott militis") [Note: this is in opposition to the
parentage for Anne that Douglas says in the potted bio: "daughter of
William Cavendish, Knt. of Northaw, Hertfordshire, and Chatsworth,
Derbyshire".]
**A.R. Wagner 'English Gen.' (1960): 182-183, Table II at end.
**W.G. Davis 'Anc. of Abel Lunt (1963): 244-246.
**'VCH Wiltshire' 8 (1965): 241-242; 10 (1975): 87-88; 11 (1980): 8;
12
(1983): 174.

I have seen none of the above sources.

PA3 states that Ferdinando Baynton "became an innholder through the
inheritance of his wife from her grandfather, William Weare alias
Browne, innholder of Salisbury." No death dates are provided for
Ferdinando or for his wife "married about 1598 Joan Weare alias
Browne,
widow of John Hinckley, of Salisbury, Wiltshire, and daughter of John
Weare alias Browne, of Calne, Wiltshire." The last sentence in their
potted bio is "Ferdinando Baynton, Gent., was living 4 Nov. 1616."

I don't have a copy of page 70 in PA3, but I handwrote that one of the
sources cited for this couple (I don't know if it was the only source)
is:

**'Genealogist' n.s. 24 (1908): 131.

I have not seen that source either.

None of the above sources are primary - the closest being the 1623
Visitation Baynton pedigree, which has error. Nor were any of the
sources published since 1970, except for the VCH Wiltshire volumes, so
there does not appear to have been any recent research on this line,
and it needs to double-checked.

Nothing in the line as given in PA3 indicates any kind of "high-born"
status for Anne Baynton Batt. She was, apparently, the
great-granddaughter of a M.P. of a respectable Wiltshire gentry
family,
though her father, the youngest son of a younger son, worked for a
living in town and apparently held no manors or property outside of
it.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, --------Brad

Tony Hoskins

Re: Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 27 apr 2006 20:35:02

Like Diana (Skipwith) Dale, Anne (Baynton) Batt was among the highest
born women to come to colonial America.

The issue of being "well-born" rather than "high-born" among 17th
century immigrants to America is an interesting one. There are numerous
instances of royally and nobly descended immigrants who gave evidence
(like Anne (Baynton) Batt) of social decline in recent generations.

Off the top of my head, the list "highest-born" immigrants to America
in the 17th century would probably be headed by the Hon. John West (to
Virginia in 1618), 4th son of the 2nd Lord DeLaWarr, and the Hon. George
Percy (to Virginia in 1607), a younger son of the 8th Earl of
Northumberland. John West has numerous descendant in America. George
Percy *currently* is thought to have no descendants. There may be
developments in that arena.

Grace (Chetwode) Bulkeley (to MA in 1635) is also surely one who might
be described as "high-born" - daughter of Sir Richard and Lady Chetwode,
of Odell, Beds and Warkworth, Norhants.

All in all, my opinion - contrary to received (and frankly prejudiced)
"common thought" that American founders were scurrilous guttersnipe -
there was probably never such a high proportion of people in the upper
social echelons emigrating anywhere, at any time, than the English to
America from 1607-1680. Sir Anthony Wagner was one of the very few to
see this fact clearly.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Hoskins

Re: Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 27 apr 2006 21:05:42

Illustration of the social fluidity in re: Ann (Baynton) Batt. I have
always been intrigued by the fact that Anne's father, Ferdinando Baynton
(1566-aft. 1615), gent., innkeeper, was not only a half-nephew of
William Cavendish, 1st Earl of Devonshire but also a half great-nephew
of Queen Katherine Howard (1522-1542), Henry VIII's 5th queen. Pretty
dramatic social "slip-sliding"!

Tony


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 27 apr 2006 21:10:13

Interesting. It's rather pathetic to see an adult exhibit such
attention-seeking behaviour on a specialised research forum.
Unfortunately, the lack of judgment it manifests also calls into
question the validity of your research conclusions as well - so your
potentially valuable genealogical contributions should probably be
subjected to an additional level of critical review before acceptance.
Thanks for warning us.

Once again you display your talent [?] for tedious moralizing--

I do not make my postings for your benefit, and would prefer that not
read them at all. Like Leo, why don't you just killfile me and be done
with it?

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 21:30:45

John Brandon schrieb:

I do not make my postings for your benefit, and would prefer that not
read them at all. Like Leo, why don't you just killfile me and be done
with it?

Because, when you are not being a child, many of your posts are
relevant and interesting. I don't understand your peculiar need to be
a clown and embarrass yourself, and am sorry you persist in insulting
other intelligent, constructive posters for no reason, but that
behaviour is too pathetic to be irritating, so I have no interest in
kill-filing you. I just wish you'd display the maturity that the rest
of the regular posters can muster, and stick to the mediaeval genealogy
for which you have a flair.

Regards, Michael

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 21:36:01

The "Weare als Browne" was used for a number of generations, and below are
some I have collected in my _Browne register_, but to-date I have not attempted
to join them up. At a guess the Weare part originated from the town of
Weare in Hertfordshire. Now in the 1st extract below was William the (inn-)
keeper of the "Queen's Seal" or is this referring to a public office rather than
a public house — the later I think.

Adrian

Reference: DD\WHb/667; Recognizance of statute staple bond; Creation dates:
1583; Extent and Form: 1 doc
Scope and Content
From William Button, of Alton for the payment of £2000 to his son William
Button, made before William Weare al. Browne major of New Sarum, [ac:
Salisbury] keeper of the greater piece of the Queens seal and Giles Estcourte, clerk
to the Queen and keeper of the smaller piece of the same seal for
recognizances of debts within the same city.
Dated, 6 Dec. 26 Eliz. [1583].
Fine impression of the above seal with privy seal on reverse, and another
small seal.
PRO; A2A; Somerset Archive and Record Service_ Walker-Heneage and Button
family and estate papers, Coker Court, East Coker [DD_WHb_1 - DD_WHb_1322].

Reference: DD\WHb/823-824; Lease and counterpart for lives; Creation dates:
1577; Extent and Form: 1 doc.
Scope and Content
By William Button, of Alton, esq. to John Weare al. Browne of Calne yeoman,
of a tenement late in the tenure of John Love, in Calne, with 4½ acres of
arable land in Stocke-feild; rent 18sh.
Dated, 11 Jan. 19 Eliz. [1577].
PRO; A2A; Somerset Archive and Record Service_ Walker-Heneage and Button
family and estate papers, Coker Court, East Coker [DD_WHb_1 - DD_WHb_1322].

Reference: 335/92; Creation dates: 1600
Scope and Content
Deed relating to 'three several fields or grounds of arable and pasture as
they are now enclosed...called... Over Fields and The Croft', part of Cancourt
Farm in Lydiard Tregoze.
Parties: Weare alias Browne, Spencer.
[W.A.S. Ms. No.106, printed W.A.M., xxxvi, 215-216].
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Miscellaneous Estate Records
b.

Reference: 9/20/75; Creation dates: 1 June 1604
Scope and Content
Bargain and sale (1) Richard Weare alias Browne of Denford, Berks., gent.,
(2) Robert Mursley of Bristol, yeoman.
Capital messuage called Polton farm and watergrist mill belonging to it in
Mildenhall; lands and tenements belonging to the farm and mill.
Consideration, 40s. Enrolled in Chancery 24 June 1604.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Savernake Estate [9_19_1 -
9_24_478].

Reference: 9/20/76; Creation dates: 24 January 1606
Scope and Content
Quitclaim (1) Thomas Weare alias Browne of Marlborough, gent., (2) Richard
Weare alias Browne of Denford, Berks., gent.
Rights and claims to capital messuage called Great Polton farm and
watergrist mill belonging, in Mildenhall, reserving to (1) the Woade Close (arable)
and a close of meadow on south side of the river near Great Polton.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Savernake Estate [9_19_1 -
9_24_478].

Reference: 9/2/281; Creation dates: 18 June 1610
Scope and Content
(2) Richard Weare alias Browne of Denford, Berks., gent. Closes of meadow
called one of the Bay Meads (7a.) and Bayhed (1½a.)
Fine, £16. Rent, 43a.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Savernake Estate [9_1_1 -
9_5_76].

Reference: PR/Broad Hinton St Peter ad Vincula/829/14; Bargain and sale of a
messuage and lands (described) in Uffcott, formerly belonging to the Dean
and Chapter of Salisbury and by them leased to Richard Weare alias Browne. With
four accompanying descriptive letters, 1866, 1880, 1887.; Creation dates:
1650, 19th cent
Scope and Content
Parties: Trustees for the sale of possessions of deans and chapters; Weare
alias Browne.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ St Peter ad Vincula Parish,
Broad Hinton.

Reference: 212B/3857; Creation dates: 1586 Sept. 9
Scope and Content
(1) Weare, John (alias Browne), yeoman of Cancourtes, par. Liddiard
Treygoose; and Weare, Thomas (alias Browne), son of John
(2) Diston, Anthony, fishmonger, of Marlborough.
Feoffment of 3 parcels of land, called the "Overfields" and the "Crofte".
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Wiltshire Deeds [212B_3715 -
212B_5647].

Reference: D1677/GG/448; Creation dates: (1565);
Scope and Content
6 Nov., 7 Eliz
Certificate by ROBERT WEARE als BROWNE the 6th time Maior of the Borough of
Marleborough, co. Wilts., gent., that the men whose names were underwritten
and their seals set came before him at the Guildhall of Marlborogh witnessing
that Robert Maylybrok late of Marleborough, co. Wilts., wax channdeler decd.,
son of Thos. Mallbrok of Marlebrough, wax chandeler, did give and grant and
by his deed dated 4 Nov., 37 Hen. VIII confirmed to Morys Williams of
Stanton, co. Glouc:, yeoman, all that his 3 acres of land in the parish of Stanton,
one acre thereof lying in the field called the Morewallfelde. .. . the
highway; one acre thereof lying in the feld called the Heymerefeld called
Wilmottesdaysherth and one acre lying in the felde called Shobley felde
And also that he the said Maior knew the said Robert Mallybrok to be the son
of Thomas Mallibrok of the Borough of Marllborough, waxw channdler decd.,
and so dyd manye of the borough of Marlebrough who are yett lyving that do
witness and affirm the same.
Signature, Robert Weare als Browne, Maior, and seal of office. Marks and
seals of :- John Rone, Umpherye Martyn, Richard Knight, Myles Daye, Robt.
Tappinge, John Brooke, John Pinchesse.
SEALS: ON TAGS, BROWN WAX; (1) CIRCULAR, HEAD OF FLOWER OF FIVE PETALS; (2)
OVAL, TWO INITIALS, INDECIPHERABLE; (3) OVAL, INITIALS K H; (4) CIRCULAR,
BADLY IMPRESSED, A FIGURE ROBED AND SEATED, (SEAL OF OFFICE OF MAYOR OF
MARLBOROUGH); (5) CIRCULAR, INITIALS - S; (6) OVAL, INITIALS W R; (7) MISSING; (8)
BADLY IMPRESSED AND UNIDENTIFIABLE.
PRO; A2A; Gloucestershire Record Office_ Deeds, Estate and Family Records of
the Hall and Gage [D1677_GG_1133 - D1677_GMo_90].

Reference: 9/20/74; Creation dates: 25 March 1557
Scope and Content
Feoffment (1) Thomas Bushe of London, gent., son and heir of William Bushe
of 'Beryblonsdon' (Burytown Farm in Blunsdon) gent., (2) Robert Weare alias
Browne of Marlborough, gent.
The manor of Poulton or Great Poulton, in Mildenhall.
(1) appoints William Daniell and Robert Halle his attorneys to deliver
seisin to (2).
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Savernake Estate [9_19_1 -
9_24_478].

Browne, Thomas, of Wilts, gent. MAGDALEN HALL, matric. 21 Jan., 1619-20,
aged 17; student of the Middle Temple 1623, as son and heir of Thomas, of
Marlborough, Wilts, gent. See Foster’s Inns of Court Reg.
Alumni Oxonienses – The Members of the University of Oxford, 1500-1714 by
Joseph Foster, CD Copy; page 197.

[ac: Who is perhaos]
Reference: 211/17/1-5; Creation dates: 1623
Scope and Content
General livery of seisin of site of the Priory of the White Friars in
Marlborough. Thomas Weare alias Browne.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Aldbourne Enclosure Papers.

Reference: 9/19/112; Creation dates: 20 December 1596
Scope and Content
Marriage settlement (1) Thomas Weare alias Browne of Marlborough, gent., (2)
John Godwyn of Grove, Mildenhall, yeoman, and Thomas Maylen of Marlborough,
yeoman.
Mansion house called Fryers with curtilage and garden, on south side of High
Street, St. Peter's, Marlborough; four tenements in the Bailyward on north
side of St. Peter's church, tenement called the Gatehouse on north side of
High Street, a corner tenement in Kingsbury St., tenement near the Highe Crosse
adjoining graveyard of St. Mary's church, three tenements next to west side of
cemetery in the Kingsbury Ward, stable on south side of Silverless St.,
tenement next to stable, tenement on north side of Silverless St., in
Marlborough, two tenements on east side of Kingsbury St., tenement on northern side of
Oxford Street, tenement in Herd Street, tenements and gardens in Blowhorn
Street, St. Mary's, tenements and gardens in Newlands Street (alias St.
Martin's), shop or stall called the Shambles in the Butcher Rowe, High Street, Dymers
Close in St. Peter's, meadow on east side of Kingsbury Street, meadow on east
side of Heard Street, meadow in Elcot, Preshute, meadow near Preshute Bridge.
To (2) for ever, to use of (1) and Anne, his wife, and their male heirs.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Savernake Estate [9_19_1 -
9_24_478].

Reference: 9/19/747; Creation dates: 20 September 1651
Scope and Content
(1) Robert Weare alias Browne, the elder, of Marlborough, gent., and Robert
Weare alias Browne, the younger, gent., his son, (2) Andrew Clarke of
Marlborough, wheeler.
Tenement, backside, and garden on the south side of the Ballyward (160 ft.
in length, 23 ft. in breadth).
Rent £2.10s.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Savernake Estate [9_19_1 -
9_24_478].

Reference: CC/Chancellorship/9; Former Reference: C.C. 67457; Creation
dates: 1661
Scope and Content
Lease of half of two tenements, a cottage and five yardlands, all in Uffcott.
Parties: Chancellor, Weare alias Browne.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Church Commissioners.

Reference: 473/100; Creation dates: 1574
Scope and Content
Deed relating to property in Calne.
Parties: Blake, Symons, Wear als. Brown.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Goldney Family.

Reference: 473/228; Creation dates: 1545-1560
Scope and Content
Eighteen deeds relating to property in Stanley (including the abbey), to
property in Bremhill, Calne, Chippenham, Chittoe, Lacock, Pewsham (Loxwell Farm)
and Rowde.
With (i) receipt, Thos. Pope, Treasurer of Augmentations, £80, in part
payment of 600 marks, 22 Feb. 1539, (ii) deed (1546), exchange of property, Andrew
Baynton and Thomas Seymour.
Parties: Alleyn, Arrundell, Barrett, Baynton, Buryman, Daniell, Norborne,
Seymour, Snell, Sharrington, Were als. Browne, Wilcocks.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Goldney Family.

Reference: 473/242; Creation dates: 1578-1601
Scope and Content
Twelve deeds relating to property in the manor of Stanley, including the
mansion house of the abbey, and in Chippenham, Lacock, Bremhill and Heddington.
With (i) grant of goods, chattels, etc. of Andrew Baynton to his son Henry
Baynton, by Sir Edward Baynton, 1591, (ii) memorandum relating to the
execution of livery and seisin in property in Stanley, 1596, (iii) letters issued
from the Court of Arches confirming that Philippa Breylewte, from whom Andrew
Baynton sought a separation, had been already married, 1597, (iv)
administrations issued by the court of the Archdeacon of Wilts and the Prerogative Court
of Canterbury, relating to the unadministered goods of Andrew Baynton, 1600,
1601.
Parties: Austie (Anstie or Anstee), Baynton, Browne, Cheevers, Cooke,
Crooke, Hancock, Lambert, Longe, Mylles, Seger als. Parsons, Weare (Were) als.
Browne, Webbe.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Goldney Family.

Reference: 492/143; Creation dates: 1555
Scope and Content
Deed relating to property in the manor of Stanley.
Parties: Baynton, Weare alias Browne.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Miscellaneous Deeds and
Estate Papers.

Reference: 9/20/77; Creation dates: 12 November 1608
Scope and Content
Marriage settlement (1) Richard Weare alias Browne of Denford, Berks.,
gent., (2) Thomas Orpwood of Abingdon, Berks., gent., Roger Garrard of Lambourn,
Berks., gent., and Thomas Sclatter, the elder, of Marlborough, yeoman.
Great Poulton Farm and Poulton Mill in Mildenhall. Moiety settled on (1),
Anne, his wife and heirs, other moiety on (2) to use of (1) etc. Proviso for
defeasance on payment of 12d. to (2). Receipt for such a payment to Roger
Garrard, 29 September 1614, enclosed.
PRO; A2A; Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office_ Savernake Estate [9_19_1 -
9_24_478].



In a message dated 27/04/2006 18:08:58 GMT Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

It is curious that the "high-class" Ferdinand Baynton should have been
an inn-keeper: not a terribly patrician undertaking in the early 17th
century. Do you happen to know the source for his having followed such
a profession? I have only seen a PROCAT reference which calls him
"gentleman, of Salisbury" [E 44/140, dated 17 June 17 James I - i.e.
1619]


Brad replied


Dear Michael,

Per PA3 (pp. 69-70), Ferdinando Baynton, "Gent., of New Salisbury,
Wiltshire, innholder" was baptized at Bromham, Wiltshire 28 May 1566,
the third and youngest son of Henry Baynton, Esq., of Temple Rockley
(in Preshute) and Lavington Baynton (in Market Lavington), Wiltshire,
and Chelsea, Middlesex, and his wife Anne Cavendish. Henry Baynton
was, in turn, the fourth of five sons of Sir Edward Baynton, of
Bromham, M.P. (and the elder son by Sir Edward's 2nd wife Isabel
Leigh).

No death dates are provided for Henry Baynton and Anne Cavendish - the
last sentence on their potted bio is "In 1595 he sold the manor of
Temple Rockley (in Preshute) to the tenant, Thomas Hutchins." The
sources cited for Henry Baynton and Anne Cavendish are:

**'Jour. of the Derbyshire Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc.' 29 (1907): 81-102
[My guess is that this source has to do with the Cavendishes, since the
Bayntons don't appear to have had anything to do with Derbyshire.]
**'Wiltshire Vis. Peds. 1623' (H.S.P. 105-6) (1954): 5-8 (Bainton
pedigree: "Henry Bainton de Co Wilts Ar: 4 filius=... filia Rici
Cavendish de Com Nott militis") [Note: this is in opposition to the
parentage for Anne that Douglas says in the potted bio: "daughter of
William Cavendish, Knt. of Northaw, Hertfordshire, and Chatsworth,
Derbyshire".]
**A.R. Wagner 'English Gen.' (1960): 182-183, Table II at end.
**W.G. Davis 'Anc. of Abel Lunt (1963): 244-246.
**'VCH Wiltshire' 8 (1965): 241-242; 10 (1975): 87-88; 11 (1980): 8; 12
(1983): 174.

I have seen none of the above sources.

PA3 states that Ferdinando Baynton "became an innholder through the
inheritance of his wife from her grandfather, William Weare alias
Browne, innholder of Salisbury." No death dates are provided for
Ferdinando or for his wife "married about 1598 Joan Weare alias Browne,
widow of John Hinckley, of Salisbury, Wiltshire, and daughter of John
Weare alias Browne, of Calne, Wiltshire." The last sentence in their
potted bio is "Ferdinando Baynton, Gent., was living 4 Nov. 1616."

I don't have a copy of page 70 in PA3, but I handwrote that one of the
sources cited for this couple (I don't know if it was the only source)
is:

**'Genealogist' n.s. 24 (1908): 131.

I have not seen that source either.

None of the above sources are primary - the closest being the 1623
Visitation Baynton pedigree, which has error. Nor were any of the
sources published since 1970, except for the VCH Wiltshire volumes, so
there does not appear to have been any recent research on this line,
and it needs to double-checked.

Nothing in the line as given in PA3 indicates any kind of "high-born"
status for Anne Baynton Batt. She was, apparently, the
great-granddaughter of a M.P. of a respectable Wiltshire gentry family,
though her father, the youngest son of a younger son, worked for a
living in town and apparently held no manors or property outside of it.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, --------Brad


<<<<

Gjest

Re: Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 21:48:29

"Tony Hoskins" schrieb:

"perhaps he [Ferdinando Baynton] merely owned the property and
derived income from it without carrying out a trade himself"

An interesting point. Actually, in my experience it is not unheard of
for an innkeeper to be a "gentleman". Ancestors of mine, Gervase
Umfreville (c.1570-bef 1634) and his wife (later widow) Katherine
(Digby) Umfreville (c.1575-aft 1641) were, innkeepers at Ewell, Surrey.
They were a couple clearly, like Ferdinando Baynton, on the cusp of
gentry.

Nice analogy. Another one, a little later than the timeframe in
question: John Bishop (died 1728) succeeded his father as landlord of
the Red Lion inn at Basingstoke, Hants; he owned a long lease on the
property but also appears to have run the place himself. However, his
successor was his youngest son Andrew, who presumably felt he had moved
up on the social ladder thanks to various additions to the family's
real property portfolio. He was consistently styled "gentleman" prior
to his death in 1775, by which time it seems the inn was tenanted. His
heirs were accepted as members of the landed classes - a good example
of British class mobility.

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av John Brandon » 27 apr 2006 21:50:56

Because, when you are not being a child, many of your posts are
relevant and interesting.

Ugh ... distasteful ... more "faint praise" and patronization from
MAR....

Gjest

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 22:15:14

John Brandon schrieb:

Because, when you are not being a child, many of your posts are
relevant and interesting.

Ugh ... distasteful ... more "faint praise" and patronization from
MAR....

Never mind, someone will no doubt fetch your dummy back for you again
if you cry long enough.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 apr 2006 22:15:20

Dear Michael ~

Thanks for providing the reference. Much appreciated.

I have this cited in Plantagenet Ancestry under Ferdinando Baynton's
father, Henry Baynton, Esquire, as:

Wagner, English Genealogy (1960): 182-183, Table II at end.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Douglas Richardson schrieb:

Dear Tony ~

Sir Anthony Wagner covered the fascinating topic of social descent in
one or more of his books. Without checking the specific title(s), I
believe the books in question are English Genealogy (1960) and Pedigree
and Progress (1975), both of which are well worth reading. The "social
descent" of the family of Anne (Baynton) Batt is covered by one of
these books.

It is English Genealogy, p 213 and Table II ("King & Innkeeper").
According to Wagner, Ferdinand Baynton was living in 1623; he was the
grandson maternally of Sir William Cavendish (d 1557) and thus
half-nephew of the 1st Earl of Devonshire (d 1626).

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av John Brandon » 27 apr 2006 22:21:29

There is a 1630s reference to Ferdinando Baynton in _A Calendar of the
Docquets of Lord Keeper Coventry, 1625-1640_ [List and Index Society,
Special Series, vols. 34-37], p. 431. I've glanced at the reference in
the past, but that volume has recently gone missing, and I don't
remember what it's in ref. to.


Gjest

Re: William Eltonhead --Elizabeth Eltonhead Acton

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 22:38:02

The will of Edward Eltonhead, Master of Chancery, dated 16 September 1657
and proved 21 August 1660 answers the question of which Elizabeth Eltonhead
married Edward Acton. In her father's will she is named just as "my daughter
Elizabeth" along with her sister Margaret both of whom are unmarried. He had
three married daughters Frances Wood, Mary Gilbourne and Anne Burgh.

When the will was proved the first signatory is "Elizabeth Acton Alias
Eltonhead wife of Edward Acton".

Edward Acton born ca. March 22, 1628/9 was the son of Blandina Penwin and
John Acton, Goldsmith of London. It was for Edward Acton and his sister
Margaret Acton that his step-father Henry Skipwith secured their inheritance of
£3750 18 s.1 1/2d. by a 99 year lease on his manor of Prestwold in
Leicestershire. This is what eventually cost Henry Skipwith the estate he held there.

Best regards,
MichaelAnne

Tony Hoskins

Re: Social and economic mobility in early modern England

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 27 apr 2006 22:40:02

"perhaps he [Ferdinando Baynton] merely owned the property and
derived income from it without carrying out a trade himself"

An interesting point. Actually, in my experience it is not unheard of
for an innkeeper to be a "gentleman". Ancestors of mine, Gervase
Umfreville (c.1570-bef 1634) and his wife (later widow) Katherine
(Digby) Umfreville (c.1575-aft 1641) were, innkeepers at Ewell, Surrey.
They were a couple clearly, like Ferdinando Baynton, on the cusp of
gentry.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Douglas Richardson

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 apr 2006 23:31:54

Thanks for posting these records, Adrian. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

Gjest

Re: William Eltonhead --Elizabeth Eltonhead Acton

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 apr 2006 23:55:02

In addition to my last posting there are some additions and corrections.

The will was proved 12 July 1660 by William Wood, John Eltonhead and his son
William Eltonhead, executors.

On 21 August 1661 Elizabeth Acton alias Eltonhead and her sister Margaret
Eltonhead and their sisters received their inheritance.

Edward Eltonhead had another brother named Ralph Eltonhead who is also
mentioned, and there were two more daughters of Edward Eltonhead: Susan Lofton and
Ellen Eltonhead.

There were no male heirs.

Regards,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 apr 2006 00:03:01

In a message dated 4/27/06 2:53:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Katherine (Courtenay) Huddesfield today which are found on FHL
Microfilm 917528. One of the IPMs is dated 25 Jan. 1514/5, and states
that Lady Katherine died 12 January 1514/5. Her heir was her son,
George Rogers, aged 30. >>


She had a ROGERS spouse abt 1484/5 ?
Her daughter Katherine Huddesfield was born abt 1481/2 and her spouse William
Huddesfield did not die until 23 Jun 1499. So I'm not seeing how George
could be only 30. He should be at least 35 ish.

Will

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 28 apr 2006 02:09:01

Dear John
I know how heavy they must be, but why don't you removed all those chips
from both your shoulders and get on with doing what you're good at -
medieval genealogy.
With a big friendly moooo.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: John Brandon
Date: 04/28/06 06:25:07
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Because, when you are not being a child, many of your posts are
relevant and interesting.

Ugh ... distasteful ... more "faint praise" and patronization from
MAR....

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: The Irrelevant, Irrevelant & misnamed, OT 'Jesus Dynasty

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 28 apr 2006 03:42:02

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: The Irrelevant, Irrevelant &, yes, Irreverent, & misnamed, OT 'Jesus Dyna...


| In a message dated 4/26/06 8:19:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
| FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:
|
| << Not implying. Stating out-right, to the best of my knowledge. >>
|
| It's an impossible task.
|
| There are no known genealogical links, not even legendary ones, between the
| Mayan, Aztec and Incan indians lines. The Book of Mormon doesn't supply those.
| And there are no stated links that bring any of these lines to the present.
|
| The Book of Mormon is mostly concerned with very ancient happenings in the
| New World. No New World person from the book has been connected to any person
| identified through archaeology. And even if they were, there are no documented
| descendents from any ancient American Indian line.
|
| Will Johnson

So...The best of my knowledge is, indeed, accurate & correct! Man, do I LOVE when THAT happens!
Ford

Peter MEAZEY

Re: Social descent

Legg inn av Peter MEAZEY » 28 apr 2006 10:13:02

On the subject of social descent in France, see Michel Nassiet, Noblesse
et Pauvreté - la petite noblesse en Bretagne XVe-XVIIIe siècle (Société
d'Histoire et d'Archaéologie de Bretagne, 1993) ISBN 9505895-1-0.
Nassiet examines the phenomenon in over 500 pages, going into tremendous
detail on the fortunes of a dozen noble families in the Rennes -
Saint-Malo - Saint-Brieuc region. Very instructive reading.
The best known example concerns the ancestors of François-René de
Chateaubriand. In his own words (from Mémoires d'Outre-Tombe) :
"La troisième branche des Chateaubriand s'appauvrit, effet inévitable de
la loi du pays : les aînés nobles emportaient les deux tiers des biens,
en vertu de la coutume de Bretagne ; les cadets divisaient entre eux
tous un seul tiers de l'héritage paternel. La décomposition du chétif
estoc de ceux-ci s'opérait avec d'autant plus de rapidité qu'ils se
mariaient ; et comme la même distribution des deux tiers au tiers
existait aussi pour leurs enfants, ces cadets de cadets arrivaient
promptement au partage d'une pigeon, d'un lapin, d'une canardière et
d'un chien de chasse."
With two-thirds of the estate going to the eldest son in every
generation, the younger sons of younger sons ended up with a part-share
in a pigeon or a rabbit - where their ancestors had once owned a dovecot
and a warren. There are known examples of descendants of the nobility
running taverns as early as the XVth century.
HTH
Peter Meazey

Renia

Re: Social descent

Legg inn av Renia » 28 apr 2006 11:05:56

Peter MEAZEY wrote:

On the subject of social descent in France, see Michel Nassiet, Noblesse
et Pauvreté - la petite noblesse en Bretagne XVe-XVIIIe siècle (Société
d'Histoire et d'Archaéologie de Bretagne, 1993) ISBN 9505895-1-0.
Nassiet examines the phenomenon in over 500 pages, going into tremendous
detail on the fortunes of a dozen noble families in the Rennes -
Saint-Malo - Saint-Brieuc region. Very instructive reading.
The best known example concerns the ancestors of François-René de
Chateaubriand. In his own words (from Mémoires d'Outre-Tombe) :
"La troisième branche des Chateaubriand s'appauvrit, effet inévitable de
la loi du pays : les aînés nobles emportaient les deux tiers des biens,
en vertu de la coutume de Bretagne ; les cadets divisaient entre eux
tous un seul tiers de l'héritage paternel. La décomposition du chétif
estoc de ceux-ci s'opérait avec d'autant plus de rapidité qu'ils se
mariaient ; et comme la même distribution des deux tiers au tiers
existait aussi pour leurs enfants, ces cadets de cadets arrivaient
promptement au partage d'une pigeon, d'un lapin, d'une canardière et
d'un chien de chasse."
With two-thirds of the estate going to the eldest son in every
generation, the younger sons of younger sons ended up with a part-share
in a pigeon or a rabbit - where their ancestors had once owned a dovecot
and a warren. There are known examples of descendants of the nobility
running taverns as early as the XVth century.
HTH
Peter Meazey


Yup. One of the causes of the French Revolution. Aristocrats with no
land and no money poncing around getting credit and abusing the
riff-raff. Noblesse sans oblige.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 apr 2006 15:30:59

Will ~ I'm sure George Rogers is stated in his mother's IPM taken in
1515 to be 30 "and more." That means anywhere George was anywhere
between 30 and 40 in 1515. George's father, Thomas Rogers, was living
in 1478, and dead before 1479.

In any case, Katherine Courtenay was not the mother of Katherine
(Huddesfield) Carew as you state. She was, however, the mother of
Elizabeth (Huddesfield) Poyntz, besides her son and heir, George
Rogers. Both Elizabeth and George are named in her will. Katherine is
not.

DR

Vickie Elam White

Re: William Eltonhead --Elizabeth Eltonhead Acton

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 28 apr 2006 17:04:46

Is this the Edward Eltonhead bp. 30 May 1598 in St. Mary, Prescott,
Lancashire son of William Eltonhead?

Vickie Elam White

<ClaudiusI0@aol.com> wrote in message news:3e0.bb7a3a.31828537@aol.com...
The will of Edward Eltonhead, Master of Chancery, dated 16 September 1657
and proved 21 August 1660 answers the question of which Elizabeth
Eltonhead
married Edward Acton. In her father's will she is named just as "my
daughter
Elizabeth" along with her sister Margaret both of whom are unmarried. He
had
three married daughters Frances Wood, Mary Gilbourne and Anne Burgh.

When the will was proved the first signatory is "Elizabeth Acton Alias
Eltonhead wife of Edward Acton".

Edward Acton born ca. March 22, 1628/9 was the son of Blandina Penwin
and
John Acton, Goldsmith of London. It was for Edward Acton and his sister
Margaret Acton that his step-father Henry Skipwith secured their
inheritance of
£3750 18 s.1 1/2d. by a 99 year lease on his manor of Prestwold in
Leicestershire. This is what eventually cost Henry Skipwith the estate he
held there.

Best regards,
MichaelAnne




Douglas Richardson

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 apr 2006 18:04:35

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 4/27/2006 2:53:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

An abstract of Sir William Huddesfield's will is on the same microfilm.
It is dated 14 June 1497, proved 6 July 1499. He mentions his current
wife, Lady Katherine; his daughter, Elizabeth (unmarried); his daughter
and son-in-law, Lady Katherine and Sir Edmund Carew, and their
children, John, Charles, Thomas, and William Carew; his former wife,
Elizabeth (deceased);


His former wife... Elizabeth ? Not Jennet?
Who was this former wife?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Dear Will ~

Sir William Huddesfield may have had three wives, but his will only
mentions two, Elizabeth (deceased) and Lady Katherine (his current
wife). The deceased wife, Elizabeth, is named in two places in the
will, so there doesn't appear to be a transcription error with her
name.

DR

Douglas Richardson

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 apr 2006 18:13:15

Dear Will ~

I suspect that there is a transcription error in the list of Katherine
(Huddesfield) Carew's children found in the modern abstract of her
father's will.

I show that Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew had four sons, William, Knt.,
Thomas, George (clerk) [Dean of Bristol and of Exeter, Dean of St.
George's Chapel, Windsor, and chapel royal], and Gawen, Knt., and
four daughters, Katherine (wife of Philip Champernoun), Dorothy (wife
of John Stowell and Hugh Pollard, Knt.), Anne (nun), and Isabel (nun).
The modern abstract of her father's will, however, names Katherine's
children as John, Charles, Thomas, and William Carew.

I recommend you get the original registered copy of Sir William
Huddesfield's will and check it for yourself.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 4/27/2006 2:53:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

An abstract of Sir William Huddesfield's will is on the same microfilm.
It is dated 14 June 1497, proved 6 July 1499. He mentions his current
wife, Lady Katherine; his daughter, Elizabeth (unmarried); his daughter
and son-in-law, Lady Katherine and Sir Edmund Carew, and their
children, John, Charles, Thomas, and William Carew; his former wife,
Elizabeth (deceased);


His former wife... Elizabeth ? Not Jennet?
Who was this former wife?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: William Eltonhead --Elizabeth Eltonhead Acton

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 apr 2006 18:40:02

In a message dated 4/28/2006 12:08:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
VEWhite@nycap.rr.com writes:

Is this the Edward Eltonhead bp. 30 May 1598 in St. Mary, Prescott,
Lancashire son of William Eltonhead?


Yes. He was Master of Chancery and removed from the position in 1649 by the
interregnum government. He was reinstated in the position 3 May 1660 along
with Edwin Rich:

3 May 1660 -- Draft order restoring Edwyn Rich and Edward Eltonhed, Masters
in Chancery, to their precedency. Lords Journals, XI. 12. In extenso.

He and his brother Ralph were executors to Henry Bowers and Alice wife of
John Rogers is related to them as their son _____ Rogers was named as a cousin
[probably a nephew] in Edward Eltonhead's will:

24 May 1641 -- Petition of John Rogers, and Alice, his wife. Petitioners and
others were forced to take proceedings in Chancery in 1634 against Ralph and
Edward Eltonhead, executors of Henry Bowers, of Woolwich, in order to secure
payment of legacies.

There are numerous lawsuits in chancery between the heirs of Edward
Eltonhead. The Acton, Gilbourne, Burgh, Eltonhead and Wood families had a great deal
of discontent over the disposition of Edward's Estate.

Best regards,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew - who was her mother?

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 apr 2006 18:47:02

In a message dated 4/27/2006 2:53:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

An abstract of Sir William Huddesfield's will is on the same microfilm.
It is dated 14 June 1497, proved 6 July 1499. He mentions his current
wife, Lady Katherine; his daughter, Elizabeth (unmarried); his daughter
and son-in-law, Lady Katherine and Sir Edmund Carew, and their
children, John, Charles, Thomas, and William Carew; his former wife,
Elizabeth (deceased);


His former wife... Elizabeth ? Not Jennet?
Who was this former wife?

Thanks
Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: William Eltonhead

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 apr 2006 19:08:36

I think you're onto something, MichaelAnne ...

Tony Hoskins

Re: Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew: but who *was* her mother?

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 28 apr 2006 19:18:02

Dear Doug,

Many thanks for the info. But, I'm curious; from whence came that Bosum
identification?

Best wishes and, again, thanks.

Tony

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> 04/28/06 10:01AM
Dear Tony ~


Sir William Huddesfield's will mentions his current wife, Lady
Katherine, and his deceased wife, Elizabeth, but no wife named Jennet.
In one place, he specifically requests prayers for his deceased wife,
Elizabeth, and for his deceased parents, William and Alice. I get the
impression that Elizabeth was his first wife and that Katherine
Courtenay was his second wife. Unless I saw evidence otherwise, I
would assume that he had no wife named Jennet. Now as to whether or
not Elizabeth was a Bosum, I have no idea.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www. royalancestry. net

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
< Dear Doug and others,
<
< Thanks so much for shedding light on this matter. Question for Doug:
< although it is clear Katherine (Huddesfield) Carew was not the
daughter
< of Sir William Huddesfield's wife Katherine Courtenay, are you still
of
< the opinion (expressed in _PA_, p. 595) that Katherine (Huddesfield)
< Carew was Sir William's daughter by Jennet Bosum?
<
< Thanks.
<
< Tony
<
< Anthony Hoskins
< History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
< History and Genealogy Library
< Sonoma County Library
< 3rd and E Streets
< Santa Rosa, California 95404
<
< 707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: William Eltonhead

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 apr 2006 20:02:02

In a message dated 4/28/2006 12:57:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
VEWhite@nycap.rr.com writes:


"Came afore the Board Thomas Taylor of Patuxt River in Calvert County, &
sheweth how tht his Mother Jane Eltonhead, the Relict of Willm Eltonhead Esqr,
being lately Deceased, & hee thereby left Orphane about the age of sixteene or
seaventeene yeares, Craveth the Priviledge of choosing his Guardian, Wch was
graunted him, And the sd Thomas Taylor made choyce of Mrs Jane Eltonhead.
Ordered tht the sd Jane Eltonhead take out Lres of Admistracon, & give in a
true & perfect Inventory of the Estate of the sd Jane Eltonhead, in behalfe of
the Orphane. And an accompt when ever shee shall bee thereto requyred by the
Judge in Testamentary Causes in this Province"

Source: Proceedings of the [MD] Provincial Court, 1658-1662, Volume 41:345




Dear Vickie and list,

I have been privately discussing this but it needs to be presented to the
list because this document is the first real proof that in this time period in
Maryland and Virginia a woman was known by her maiden name. I have seen
numerous examples produced over the past 5 years all of which are not either
regionally, socially or familially connected. This example is connected on all
those levels.

The Jane Eltonhead who becomes guardian of Thomas Taylor has to be his aunt
Jane Eltonhead Fenwick as she is the last remaining Jane Eltonhead in St.
Mary's county, Maryland who is connected to this family. Jane Eltonhead Fenwick
was Thomas Taylor's aunt as his mother was Cuthbert Fenwick's sister.

The fact that this was Jane Eltonhead Fenwick can be shown by the fact that
a few days ago the following document was posted:

70 Provincial Court Proceedings, 1658. Liber P. C. R.
Ordered tht Judgmt be entred agst the deft, on the behalfe of the plf for
fiueteene pownds of Beaue according to his demand.

Eltonhead v.Pope

Uppon the Petn of Mrs Jane Elltonhead ffenwick plf, agst Henry Pope deft;
shewing tht the deft layeth Claime to the pifs marke, wherewth she useth to
marke her cattle, & allso hath killed a Steere belonging to the plf, as shee
alleageth. Respited till next Court.

Jane Eltonhead Fenwick was known by her maiden name as these two documents
together show. This is significant as the time frame is correct, the area is
correct and there is definitely a connection between the Eltonhead and
Skipwith families as well as the other notable families in Lancaster County,
Virginia.

Vickie privately asked whether this could be Jane Eltonhead sister of Edward
Eltonhead baptized at Prescott, Lancashire on March 2, 1590/1. As we have
no other information on this Jane Eltonhead and the fact that she is not
documented anywhere in either the English or colonial records, my personal belief
is that this is highly improbable. In addition Edward Eltonhead had returned
to London by this point as he had entered into indentures with his brother
John Eltonhead and nephew William Eltonhead by 10 August 1657.

The obvious answer is that Jane Eltonhead, guardian of Thomas Taylor, in the
probate above of Feb. 28, 1659/60 was the widow of Cuthbert Fenwick. She
was alive until at least December 1660. Cuthbert Fenwick and William Eltonhead
were deceased and Jane Eltonhead [sister of Cuthbert Fenwick and wife of
William Eltonhead] had just died.

Thank you Vickie for finding this!

Best regards,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: William Eltonhead

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 apr 2006 20:48:02

I would like to thank Yvonne Purdy for sending me the following:


Lancashire – Prescot – Parish Register
Burials

Jane filia Willia(m) Eltonhed sepul: 20 Apr 1591
This is the Jane Eltonhead who was the daughter of William Eltonhead by his
wife Anne Bowers baptized at Prescott, Lancashire March 2, 1590/1:
Lancashire – Prescot – Parish Register
Baptisms
Jane fa. Willm Eltonhed 02 Mar 1589
{Jane fa. Will'm Eltonhed 02 Mar 1590 }
This is the sister of Edward Eltonhead that was proposed in the previous
post.
Regards,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Parents of Elizabeth (Audley) Bostock?

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 02:17:02

In a message dated 4/28/06 2:28:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Roemer222@aol.com writes:

<< William de Bostock, who was a
grandson of Sir Warren Bostock and Hawise le Meschin, daughter of Hugh de
Kevelioc, Earl of Chester. >>

I do not have this connection yet in my database.
You are saying that Hawise after the death of her husband Robert de Quincy in
1217, then married Warren de Bostock?

And that they had a son something de Bostock who himself had a son Warren
about 1240.

Since Hawise was born between 1169 and 1182, this only allows a six year time
period in which something de Bostock could have been born, towit 1217 to 1223.

Does that seem right?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Batisford/Codying/Echyngham

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 02:24:02

In a message dated 4/28/06 2:31:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:

<< This should help prove that Joan was daugher of Joan and Wm Echyngham
and not of Joan Fitzalan. >>

But it doesn't. This is a secondary compilation based on partial evidence.
We've already been over this a dozen times, this quote doesn't help.

This page you quoted, has Joan Batisford, who possibly wasn't even born yet,
married to a man who died "before 1382".

I think at one time, you were going to post the complete details of what you
have, but I haven't seen it yet. For one thing, we need something that pins
down more exactly when William Batisford and Margery Pepelsham were born and
when William died.

That in turn would help pin down when the children could, or could not, have
been born.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Social descent

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 18:01:02

In a message dated 4/29/2006 2:53:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
lmahler@att.net writes:

The names of the fathers are listed in each ancestral marriage,
from the late 1600s, down to the emigrating couple in the 1800s.

Thats something you will probably NEVER see in English records.


Since the Pope is the one who commanded it. And he didn't do this until
after the English church split. That would make sense.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Anne Danvers dau of William and Anne

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 21:49:03

WJhon...@aol.com schrieb:

I see my mistake now. A misreading of the Visitations of Oxford, 1566, 1574
and 1634, online at http://www.ancestry.com

Turner, William Henry. The Publications of the Harleian Society Volume 5: The
Visitation of the County of Oxford Take in the Years 1566 By William Harvey,
Clarencieux; 1574 By Richard Lee, Portcullis; and in 1634 By John Philpott,
Somerset, and William Ryley, Bluemantle Together with The Gatherings of
Oxfordshire, Collected by Richard Lee in 1574. London, England: Taylor & Co., 1871.
online here
http://content.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx= ... Oxfrd-1566
-OXFRD0169&rc=673,1017,809,1049;836,1016,921,1049;785,1781,922,1813;940,1781,1
026,1813&fn=thomas&ln=cave&pid=170

Presumably only visible if one is a paid-up subscriber to Ancestry.com

Gjest

Re: Anne Danvers dau of William and Anne

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 22:27:56

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 4/29/06 1:53:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

Presumably only visible if one is a paid-up subscriber to Ancestry.com

Well I did type out the entire text for you as well. There is no additional
text beyond what I typed.
Will

I saw that too, thanks Will: I wasn't questioning whether the material
you posted was accurate or complete, I was wondering whether it was
available through Ancestry.com to subscribers only (I seem to remember
they have rather expensive annual fees).

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Parents of Maud / Matilda Sutton who married Ralph Josse

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 22:38:30

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 4/29/06 11:30:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bdkmdurken@ameritech.net writes:

In an old post on this message board by Carol Miller I found the
following statements. "Another source, The Journal of American History of 1912, has
an article on the Joscelyn-Joslin family,which takes the family back to ancient
Troy, but my interest is the part about Ralph who married Maud Sutton in
1301, said Maud being the daughter of Sir John Sutton, at which time Ralph became
the owner of Shellon-Bowells in County Essex, one of the most picturesque
family seats in England."

Which part are you ready to discard?
The claim that this couple married in 1301?
Or the claim that she was born about 1306?

The scholarly article that "takes the [Joscelyn] family back to ancient
Troy" may also merit some doubt.

I won't dwell on my my incredulity about a place called Shellon
Bowells...

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Parents of Maud / Matilda Sutton who married Ralph Josse

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 22:40:56

m...@btinternet.com schrieb:

I won't dwell on my my incredulity about a place called Shellon
Bowells...

Sadly true, only it's Shellow Bowells, near Chelmsford.

Gjest

Re: Anne Danvers dau of William and Anne

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 22:42:02

In a message dated 4/29/06 9:38:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< Two different Annes, at least according to F. N. Macnamara, "Memorails of
the Danvers Family" [1895]. The Annne who mar. Reginald Digby was a sister
of Elizabeth who mar. Sir Thomas Cave and thus a granddaughter of the other
Anne, wife of Sir William Danvers. >>


I see my mistake now. A misreading of the Visitations of Oxford, 1566, 1574
and 1634, online at http://www.ancestry.com

The Anne Danvers that was the wife of William Danvers, is actually Anne Purye.
This then would make that two Anne's mother and daughter.
I reproduce the Visitation text below for your purusal and comments.

Will Johnson
-----------------------------------------------------
Turner, William Henry. The Publications of the Harleian Society Volume 5: The
Visitation of the County of Oxford Take in the Years 1566 By William Harvey,
Clarencieux; 1574 By Richard Lee, Portcullis; and in 1634 By John Philpott,
Somerset, and William Ryley, Bluemantle Together with The Gatherings of
Oxfordshire, Collected by Richard Lee in 1574. London, England: Taylor & Co., 1871.
online here
http://content.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx= ... Oxfrd-1566
-OXFRD0169&rc=673,1017,809,1049;836,1016,921,1049;785,1781,922,1813;940,1781,1
026,1813&fn=thomas&ln=cave&pid=170

States : "Richard Cave, of Stanford, Com Northamp. son'e and heire to Thomas
maried to his 2nd wife, Margaret, Daugh to ... Saxtye, and by her had issue Sr
Thomas Cave, Knt. eldest son'e; Ffraunces, 2d son'e; Anthony, 3d son'e; Sr
Ambrose Cave, Kt 4th son'e; Bryand, 5th son'e; by his 2nd wife.
Sr Thom Cave, of Stanford, Kt. eldest son'e by his 2nd wife, maried
Elizab. one of ye Daugh & heirs of John Danvers, of Waterstocke, Com Oxon. Esquir,
son'e of Sr Will. Danvers, Kt & of Anne his wife, Daugh & heire of Sr Will.
Purye, of Chamberhowse, Com. Barks. Kt which Sr Will was ye son'e of John Danvers
of Cothrope, Com. Oxon. Esqr. which Thom. Cave & Elizab. his wife had issue
Rich. Cave, his eldest son'e, who had issue one daugh. maried to Edw. Gates,
son'e & heire to Sr Hen. Gates, of Semar, com. Ebor., Knt.; Roger Cave, 2nd
son'e; Edw. 3rd son'e; Anne, maried to John Hunt, of Lyndon, com. Rutland, Gent;
Mary, maried to Will. Skefington, of Skefington, Com Leicest. Esqr; Margaret,
maried to Sr Will Mering, of Mering, Com Nott Kt; Elizab. maried to Sr Humfrey
Stafford of Bladerwike, Com Northamp Kt; Margery, maried to John Ffarnham of
Quarne, com Leicestr gent; Alice maried to John Skevington of Ffysherwyke, Com
Staff Gent; Susan, maried to John Bawes, of Olford, Com Staff Gent (Wood.)
Edward Cave, of Waterstocke, in the Countye of Oxford, Esqr, third son'e
to Sr Thomas Cave, maryed Elizabeth, Daughtr to Sr John Conwaye, of Arrowe, in
the Countye of Warwick, knight, and had yssue Ffoulk, his sonne and heire
apparaunt.
[transcribed from the image, by Will Johnson 29 apr 2006]

Gjest

Re: Anne Danvers dau of William and Anne

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 23:04:02

In a message dated 4/29/06 1:53:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< Presumably only visible if one is a paid-up subscriber to Ancestry.com >>

Well I did type out the entire text for you as well. There is no additional
text beyond what I typed.
Will

Gjest

Re: Parents of Maud / Matilda Sutton who married Ralph Josse

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 23:05:02

In a message dated 4/29/06 11:30:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bdkmdurken@ameritech.net writes:

<< In an old post on this message board by Carol Miller I found the
following statements. “Another source, The Journal of American History of 1912, has
an article on the Joscelyn-Joslin family,which takes the family back to ancient
Troy, but my interest is the part about Ralph who married Maud Sutton in
1301, said Maud being the daughter of Sir John Sutton, at which time Ralph became
the owner of Shellon-Bowells in County Essex, one of the most picturesque
family seats in England.â€

Gjest

Re: Anne Danvers dau of William and Anne

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 apr 2006 23:57:01

In a message dated 4/29/06 2:38:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< I was wondering whether it was
available through Ancestry.com to subscribers only (I seem to remember
they have rather expensive annual fees). >>

The British subscriptions is somewhere in the $50 to $70 per year range.
I've found it highly worth the price.
The only part that I'm not sure is *yet* worth it, is the newspaper
subscriptions, and that's only because the coverage is spotty.

But it's certainly worth $50 to me to be able to browse the DNB, the
Visitations, the CP (V 1-4) and other things for such a small price. Probate,
Chancery, Parish registers, just tons of stuff.

Will Johnson

norenxaq

Re: Anne Danvers dau of William and Anne

Legg inn av norenxaq » 30 apr 2006 06:41:01

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:



In a message dated 4/29/06 1:53:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

Presumably only visible if one is a paid-up subscriber to Ancestry.com

Well I did type out the entire text for you as well. There is no additional
text beyond what I typed.
Will



I saw that too, thanks Will: I wasn't questioning whether the material
you posted was accurate or complete, I was wondering whether it was
available through Ancestry.com to subscribers only (I seem to remember
they have rather expensive annual fees).

MA-R



you remember correctly

Gjest

Re: Vlad the impaler and the geneology of real vampires

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 apr 2006 17:54:02

Dear Rexy,
Vlad III Dracula Basaraba Tepes was definitely no
Socialist. the blood dipped bread story is quite possibly a renaissance smear campaign
conducted outside Wallachia during his life or by anyone after He died. On
the other hand, He did rule by terror, yet in his time most rulers did.
Wallachia was a small country, part of what would become Rumania, yet He undertook to
refuse to bow to the will of Mehmet II Fatih , Sultan of the Ottoman /
Osmanli Empire who was no slouch in the impalement department either and while He
agreed to be baptized a Roman Catholic before his marriage to Matthias Hunyadi,
King of Hungary`s sister Maria , He also wouldn`t bow to his brother-in-law`s
will either. As for the vampirism / Socialist link I have serious doubts that
everyone who belongs to a socialist party is a vampire. There are rumors of a
rare mental disorder that causes prople to crave blood of any description
(animal serves just as well) to drink, plus history has a few known blood
enthusiasts such as Elizabeth Bathory a Transylanian noblewoman who bathed in the
blood of virgins in an attempt to stay young.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

W David Samuelsen

Re: dodsworth

Legg inn av W David Samuelsen » 01 mai 2006 05:49:01

<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-04/1146450377>

Dodsworth MSS's are available on microfilm through Family History
Library system of the FHCs.

Bodleian records are available likewise.

W. David Samuelsen

Radu Bogdan

Re: Vlad the impaler and the geneology of real vampires

Legg inn av Radu Bogdan » 01 mai 2006 08:39:28

"... the blood dipped bread story is quite possibly a renaissance smear
campaign
conducted outside Wallachia during his life or by anyone after He
died."

Perfectly true ! Do you know by who ? By King Mattias in persona, next
to German traders who felt offended by the high, protectionist taxes he
imposed. Impaling was a punishment to be found in the old Saxon law, it
was not Vlad's obsessive speciality.

Elizabeth (Erzsebet) Bathory was Hungarian, indeed, but she lived in
Upper Hungary (nowadays Slovakia), not in Transylvania.


Radu Bogdan
(Transylvania, Roumania)

Svar

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