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Tony Ingham

Re: Hugh de Poyntz - John de Newburgh

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 11 apr 2006 07:14:02

Tim,

This record refers to Margaret :-

1329/1330 Somerset Fines Somerset Record Society p. 239/30. 4 Edward III
At Westminster in the octave of St. Hillary ; between Hugh Poynz of
Corymalet and Margaret his wife, querents ; and Nicholas Poynz parson of
the church of St. Mary de Hoo and Hugh de Meliplash parson of the church
of Corymalet, deforciants ; for (land in Gloucester) and for a messuage,
a carucate of land, twenty-seven acres of meadow, forty acres of wood,
and forty shillings rent in Ile Abbots. Hugh Poynz acknowledged the
right of Nicholas and Hugh as by his gift. For this they granted the
same to Hugh Poynz and Margaret to hold for their lives, and after their
decease to remain to Nicholas son of Hugh Poynz and the heirs of his
body begotten ; and if he die without such heirs then to remain to Hugh
his brother and the heirs of his body ; and if Hugh die without such
heirs then to remain to Walter his brother and the heirs of his body ;
and if Walter die without such heirs then to remain to Henry his brother
; and if Henry die without such heirs then to remain to Thomas his
brother ; and if Thomas die without such heirs then to remain to the
right heirs of the aforesaid Hugh Poynz.

The settlement was made some 11 years after Nicholas Poyntz was born (24
Aug 1318), and does not necessarily reflect that she was the mother of
Nicholas the heir, or Joanna for that matter.

Regards,

Tony Ingham.




Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

In message of 10 Apr, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:



In a message dated 4/9/06 6:35:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jrfortier@centurytel.net writes:



snip



Hugh de Poyntz=Margaret said to be Pavelly


Hugh, 3rd Lord Poyntz b 1295/1308 d bef 2 May 1337. His wife may be
a Paynel



Indeed John Maclean in his "Memoirs of the Family of Poyntz", p. 29,
says that Hugh's wife was Margaret, dau. of Sir Walter Paynel of Brook,
Wilts.

However 59 years later, CP, Vol X, p. 676, merely says she was Margaret
(--). In a footmote on the same page it says:

"see inq.p.m. of Sir John Typfor (Ch. Ing. p.m. 21 Hen VI, no 45) for
her being the da. of William Paveley of Brooke (in Westbury) Wilts.
Westbury and Broke were Paveley manors..."

Finally 51 years after that, CP has an amendment in Vol XIV, p. 536 in
which it says:

"for '(--)' read 'da. of Sir Walter Pavole, co. Wilts."

So she was Margaret Pavole.



Chris Bennett

Re: Grandson can mean grandson-in-law Vickie tells us

Legg inn av Chris Bennett » 11 apr 2006 18:17:57

Speaking of modern practice, there is a death-notice in this morning's San
Diego Union which describes the children of the stepchildren of the deceased
as her "grandchildren". -- Chris


"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:443ae773@news.ColoState.EDU...
Renia wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

The link also says that godparents must have already taken their first
communion, so at what age did you do that?



Also about 7 or 8 or thereabouts.


I am not sure modern practice is the best indicator. Unfortunately, I
don't have any references that would give an idea at that time and place.
(18th century German Lutherans would be confirmed at 13-14 in most cases,
but this would not be any closer to what a 17th century Virginian would
have done.)

taf

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 apr 2006 19:36:02

In a message dated 4/11/06 4:07:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:

<< It should be noted that Dr. Spence is an historian and not a
genealogist. This is apparent when on p. 43 he notes that the mother
of Henry VII was related to the St. Johns by their common Beauchamp
ancestry. >>

Can you clarify your meaning?
I don't find it persuasive that his being a historian is "apparent" based on
his citing kinship through genealogical ties ("ancestry"). This seems rather
to make it persuasive that he was a genealogist.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 apr 2006 20:09:51

In a message dated 4/11/06 10:00:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< A settlement is made at the time of marriage. It is the guarantee to
the bride of what will be hers should she survive her husband. >>

Can you clarify further?
Would a settlement typically be made just *prior* to the marriage?
Or just *after* the marriage?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 apr 2006 20:21:36

In a message dated 4/11/06 4:07:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:

<< Henry VII was related to the St. Johns by their common Beauchamp
ancestry. This is true, but it belies how close the relationship was.
Anne St. John, the wife of the 10th Lord Clifford was the niece of the
half-blood of Margaret, countess of Richmond. >>

To be more explicit, for those without large databases.
Henry VII b 1457 was son of Margaret Beaufort 1441-1509
Margaret was dau of John Beaufort 1404-44, Earl, later Duke, of Somerset by
his wife Margaret Beauchamp 1410-82

This last Margaret had been married previously to Sir Oliver St John
~1400-1437
by this marriage she was mother to, among others, Anne St John ~1456 - ~1508
This Anne St John married Henry the 10th Lord Clifford

Maybe Douglas can find a citation where Henry VII calls Elizabeth Clifford
his cousin or something.
By the time Henry died, Elizabeth was already at least a teenager.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 apr 2006 20:27:55

In a message dated 4/11/06 10:21:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

<< This last Margaret had been married previously to Sir Oliver St John
~1400-1437
by this marriage she was mother to, among others, Anne St John ~1456 - ~1508
This Anne St John married Henry the 10th Lord Clifford >>

Withdraw and Correct as follows
"by this marriage" she was mother to, among others, John St John, K B; of
Penmark ~1426 - aft 1488 who married ~1447 to Alice Bradshaw and by *this*
marriage were parents to Anne St John ~1456 - ~1508 who married Henry the 10th Lord
Clifford.

Mea culpa! Mea culpa!

Will Johnson

Brad Verity

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 11 apr 2006 21:15:57

From: WJhonson@aol.com

Can you clarify further?
Would a settlement typically be made just *prior* to the marriage?
Or just *after* the marriage?

Dear Will,

Typically it would be made just prior to a marriage. In this case, the 10th
Lord Clifford would have his attorneys draft a proposed settlement of lands
on Anne St. John, then she and her guardian (usually her father, but if he
was dead, or even not in this case, perhaps the King and/or the countess of
Richmond since they seem to have been closely involved in the arrangement of
the marriage) and the guardian's attorneys would agree to it, and the
marriage would take place.

It was the point where the interests of the bride were protected, and if it
occurred after the nuptials, there would be little legal recourse for her to
then insist one be made. The deed would be done, as it were. She was then
the wife and completely subordinate to his good graces to provide for her.

In this particular case, Anne had her cousin the king and her aunt his
mother overseeing her interests, so I suppose it's possible the settlement
could have been made after the nuptials, as Lord Clifford would not have
wished to incur royal wrath but not providing for his wife, but some kind of
contract would have to have been agreed upon prior to the ceremony,
stipulating that lands worth such-and-such annually would be provided
(though leaving out which particular lands), and the nuptials could have
taken place to coincide with some feast day (the New Year, or Epiphany, for
example). But I can't see a settlement being delayed for a year-and-a-half
after the ceremony, especially with Anne pregnant with the first child and
heir (as in Martin's scenario).

And as there does not seem to be any evidence for a marriage contract, just
a draft of settlement, the likeliest explanation is that it was the
settlement that was used to reach agreement between Lord Clifford and
whoever was overseeing Anne's interests, and as we luckily have the date of
the settlement (10 January 1487), the marriage ceremony likely took place
shortly before or after that date. And Anne's first appearance as Lady
Clifford in a document occurring in July of that year adds further support
to the marriage taking place in the first half of 1487.

Cheers, -------------Brad

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/

John Brandon

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 apr 2006 21:17:21

Some of those Yorks. Visitations are known to be very flawed, as well
....

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet, Constable

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 apr 2006 22:22:08

In a message dated 4/10/2006 2:51:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Regarding the history of the "extra" Peter de Brus, living 1155, I find
an individual of this name witnessed a charter of King David I of
Scotland issued to Holyrood Abbey [Reference: Lawrie, Early Scottish
Charters: Prior to 1153 (1905): 116-119. The charter is undated, but
it would necessarily be dated in or before 1151, as the charter was
granted with the assent of King David I's son, Henry, who died in that
year.

For a transcript of King David I's charter, see the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... akC&num=10
0&dq=%22Peter+de+Brus%22&lpg=PA119&pg=PA116

The editor, Mr. Lawrie, states on page 386 that Peter de Brus does not
appear in any other record of King David I's reign. He further alleges
that some of the witnesses of the charter are not contemporaries to
each other. However, he evidently was not aware of Peter de Brus'
charter in France dated 1155, which is cited by Gerville.





Dear Doug,

The charter cited above is a problem. In 1128 the Foundation was laid for
Holyrood Abbey [ Lawrie, 383]. If we are to believe that Gillemichel, Earl of
Fife was a witness to this charter then it was written during his lifetime and
he died before July 1136 [CP 5:309]. There is some question about the
witnesses as they are not contemporaries as you pointed out above [Lawrie, 384].

This is unusual for Lawrie not to question the validity of this deed when he
was aware of the problem with the signatories. He may have let this go
because it was one of the Foundation charters of the Abbey.

The other witnesses don't seem help much with this problem. Ailwyn the first
Abbot of Holyrood was a canon at Merton near London before he became David
I's chaplain. Merton was founded in 1117. Ailwyn also witnessed charters of
David I before he became king of Scotland in 1124. Ailwyn was still alive until
1150 and he was succeeded by Osbert the 2nd Abbot on Oct. 25, 1150
[Chronicle of Holyrood, edited by Marjorie Ogilvie Anderson,Scottish History Society
Publication, Third Series, Vol. 30, Edinburgh 1938, pp. 121-122; Liber
Cartarum Sancte Crucis edited by Cosmo Innes, Bannatyne Club, Edinburgh, 1840, pp.
xviii-xix].

William fitzDuncan [Willelmo nepote Meo] died in 1154. Herbert the
Chamberlain [ Herberto Camerario] was the Chamberlain to David I and also Malcolm IV
so he lived past 1153 also.

William de Graham may be an indicator of date also. He was living in 1127
and died circa 1147. He also witnessed another charter of David I and his son
Henry to St. Kentigern in Glasgow. [Registrum Episcopatus Glasguensis
Munimenta Ecclesie Metropolitane Glasguensis, A sede restaurata seculo ineunte XII ad
Reformatam Religionem, Cosmo Innes, Maitland Club, Edinburgh, 1843, pp. 13]
where Ailwyn abbot of Holyrood and Edward the Chancellor were among the
witnesses. In this charter Duncan earl of Fife, son of Gillemichel earl of Fife is
another witness.

The crux of the issue is that Edward the Chancellor was a witness. Edward
succeeded William Cumyn [Chancellor of Scotland 1133-1142] in his position to
David I and from a charter of David I to Cambuskenneth Abbey [Registrum
Monasterii S. Marie de Cambuskenneth A.D. 1147-1535, edited by Sir William Fraser,
Grampian Club, Edinburgh, 1872, pp. 71] which can be dated to have been
written between 29 May 1147 and 24 August 1147, Edward was still Chancellor at
this date. Edward became Bishop of Aberdeen afterward.

There are possibilities which might make the witnesses in this charter make
sense. The first is that possibly the scribe made an error and recorded
Gillemichel, Earl of Fife intending to record Duncan, earl of Fife, son of
Gillemichel. The second could be that Edward son of Siward was intended instead of
Edward the chancellor which would agree with the other original witnesses.
This is only speculation on my part as I don't know the intentions of the
person who scripted this charter.

By any chance is there anything in the Cartulary of Guisborough Priory which
may pertain to Peter de Brus and Adam I de Brus? I don't have the cartulary
here to check except for a few excerpted charters dealing with some of the
Annandale line. The following is out of the A2A catalogue and mentions the
primary Brus' named in this thread:

Reference: SMD0335/3/1/10
Former Reference: MD335/3/1/10
Kirk Leavington and Yarm: grant
Creation dates: c. 1160
Scope and Content
1. A. de Brus 2. The church of St.Mary of Giseburch Grant by A[dam] de Brus,
with the counsel of his men, to the church of St. Mary of Giseburch and the
canons serving God there, of his churches of Leuintuna and Jarum with all
their belongings, for his health and the souls of R. de Brus, his grandfather
and A. his father and all his other predecessors, in perpetual alms, free and
quit from all secular customs, so that the said canons should hold them as
freely as they were holding any church of the grant of his grandfather and
father. Witnesses: Peter de Brus, Humphrey de Hotun, Walter Ingelram, John
Ingelram. Seal. [Former ref: MD 335 Box70A Misc No 18]

Publication Note
YORKSHIRE DEEDS vol VII edited by Charles Travis Clay p143/44, no 419
[YORKSHIRE ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOCIETY Record Series vol LXXXIII, 1932]

I wish I could find more on this.

Best Wishes,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 apr 2006 22:59:57

In a message dated 4/11/06 11:21:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<<
Why is this "old piece of junk" probably flawed? What evidence can you
provide that it is in error? >>

It isn't just one "old piece of junk" that we have to discard though, since
the Visitation of Yorkshire 1563/4 still gives only six children. Right?
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Edward I of England's kinsman, Joh

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 apr 2006 01:44:36

Dear Douglas,
John I, Duke of Brabant was further an uncle of King
Edward I`s 2nd wife Marguerite of France, whose parents were King Philip III of
France and his 2nd wife Marie, daughter of Duke Henry III of Brabant and
Adelaide / Alix of Burgundy.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 12 apr 2006 08:24:27

In message of 11 Apr, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/11/06 11:21:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:


Why is this "old piece of junk" probably flawed? What evidence can you
provide that it is in error?

It isn't just one "old piece of junk" that we have to discard though, since
the Visitation of Yorkshire 1563/4 still gives only six children. Right?

This Visitation has some pedigrees that are more flawed than any I have
seen in any visitation record. The notes on page 62 indicate that
even the editor was not happy with this particular pedigree. Most
revealing though is that the names of two of the spouses of the
children is unknown, leaving one to conclude that the information did
not come from someone who was very familiar with that family.

And if you want real entertainment, have a look at the Neville pedigree
on pages 220 to 227. I was so taken with it that I even put a critique
of it on:

http://www.southfarm.plus.com/visitation/neville.html

As ever a problem with this Harleian publication was that it was not
prepared from the surviving manuscript of the original visitation as it
is only in the last twenty or thirty years that the College of Arms has
allowed this to be done.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Douglas Richardson

Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Edward I of England's kinsman, Joh

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 12 apr 2006 08:29:02

Dear James ~

Thank you for your good post.

Yes, you're quite correct. King Edward I's 2nd wife, Margaret of
France, was neice to John I, Duke of Brabant. However, King Edward I
did not marry Margaret of France until 1299, which is five years after
King Edward I referred to Duke John as his "affinem" (i.e., kinsman by
marriage).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Douglas,
John I, Duke of Brabant was further an uncle of King
Edward I`s 2nd wife Marguerite of France, whose parents were King Philip III of
France and his 2nd wife Marie, daughter of Duke Henry III of Brabant and
Adelaide / Alix of Burgundy.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

John Brandon

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 apr 2006 16:49:13

On what authority?
Will Johnson

Oh, give it a rest, child.

John Brandon

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 apr 2006 17:28:21

As you have made abundantly and boringly clear ...

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 apr 2006 17:46:02

In a message dated 4/12/2006 3:51:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
wilson97@paradise.net[.]nz writes:

The House of Clifford page 85 confirms Anne St. John is the Mother
Elizabeth m 1st Ralph Bowes m 2nd William Tongue


On what authority?
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 apr 2006 18:17:02

In a message dated 4/12/2006 8:51:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

On what authority?
Will Johnson

Oh, give it a rest, child.


Thank you for your suggestion. And the back-handed compliment.
Although I might be older than you, who knows?
But for some reason, on this particular topic, the secondary sources
conflict.
When that occurs, then reference to more secondary sources doesn't ever seem
to really solve the problem.
That's my opinion.

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Parentage of Lucy, wife of William du Hommet, Constable

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 12 apr 2006 20:26:14

Dear MichaelAnne ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

The charter you posted makes it clear that Adam II de Brus was the son
of Adam I de Brus and the grandson of Robert de Brus. If so, then it
seems likely to me that Lucy, wife of Guillaume du Hommet, would be the
daughter of Peter de Brus, living 1155 and c. 1160, and thus the
granddaughter of Adam I de Brus, died 1144. That's assuming (holding
my breath) that the Adam de Brus who issued a charter in France in 1144
is the same individual known as Adam I de Brus who died in 1144.

By Ruth Blakely's reconstruction of this family, however, Agnes of
Aumale is placed as the wife of Adam I de Brus. If we accept that the
Adam de Brus who occurs in France in 1144, is the same person as Adam I
de Brus, died 1144, I personally can not see how Agnes of Aumale can
possibly be the grandmother of Lucy du Hommet.

This raises the question of the identity of Agnes of Aumale's Brus
husband. Ruth Blakely says she married Adam I de Brus. Dalton says
she married Adam II de Brus. If my memory serves me correctly, there
are no contemporary charters which name Agnes of Aumale as a Brus wife.
Ivette de Arches, however, is well accounted in charters as the wife
of Adam II de Brus.

Needless to say, this is a most interesting problem.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

Claudiu...@aol.com wrote:

< By any chance is there anything in the Cartulary of Guisborough
Priory which
< may pertain to Peter de Brus and Adam I de Brus? I don't have the
cartulary
< here to check except for a few excerpted charters dealing with some
of the
< Annandale line. The following is out of the A2A catalogue and
mentions the
< primary Brus' named in this thread:
<
< Reference: SMD0335/3/1/10
< Former Reference: MD335/3/1/10
< Kirk Leavington and Yarm: grant
< Creation dates: c. 1160
< Scope and Content
< 1. A. de Brus 2. The church of St.Mary of Giseburch Grant by A[dam]
de Brus,
< with the counsel of his men, to the church of St. Mary of Giseburch
and the
< canons serving God there, of his churches of Leuintuna and Jarum
with all
< their belongings, for his health and the souls of R. de Brus, his
grandfather
< and A. his father and all his other predecessors, in perpetual alms,
free and
< quit from all secular customs, so that the said canons should hold
them as
< freely as they were holding any church of the grant of his
grandfather and
< father. Witnesses: Peter de Brus, Humphrey de Hotun, Walter Ingelram,
John
< Ingelram. Seal. [Former ref: MD 335 Box70A Misc No 18]
<
< Publication Note
< YORKSHIRE DEEDS vol VII edited by Charles Travis Clay p143/44, no
419
< [YORKSHIRE ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOCIETY Record Series vol LXXXIII, 1932]
<
< I wish I could find more on this.
<
< Best Wishes,
< MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2006 01:52:36

Thanks for your response. Thank you also for recommending the book The
Shepherd Lord of Skipton Castle by Spence. It is seldom you can read
even a short biography on such a minor figure. It does have some clues
to further research avenues.

Not wanting to start a hullabaloo, I have these further observations:

1. Marriage contracts do tend to indicate the period of time in which a
marriage ought to have taken place. Yet, in genealogy, we all know
that for every rule there is an exception. A vexing point of
genealogy is that no one really knows how to apply the exceptions or
rules with any definitive adjective such as always, possibly, probably,
likely, etc. It would be interesting if there other examples of
jointures being made a year or two after a known marriage date.
2. Is there an extant dispensation for the marriage of Elizabeth
Clifford and Sir Ralph Bowes who were third cousins via Henry Fitzhugh,
3rd Lord Fitzhugh or 4th cousins, once removed from the 5th Lord
Clifford? That would narrow down their marriage date.
3. Has anyone researched the Tonge family? Are there monumental
inscriptions for William and Elizabeth (Clifford) (Bowes) Tonge?
4. Is there heraldic evidence where Elizabeth or her husbands use the
St. John arms?
5. If the 10th Lord Clifford does marry in early 1487 [say January] and
has Elizabeth later in that year, does the chronology not work?
Elizabeth born in late 1487, Henry born in 1488/9, Joan in 1489/90,
etc. filling in the names of your posting of March 2006. If (a) the
chronology still works; and (b) her marriage portion was not low; then
we only have the 1505 pedigree of Henry VII's that is in opposition
to the supposition that she was a legitimate daughter.
6. Regarding the 1505 pedigree: Are the Clifford daughters the only
known Henry VII relations omitted? Are there others? If so,
wouldn't that reflect badly on this document as a source?

Finally, I respect your opinion that Elizabeth Clifford's maternity
is uncertain. However, for now, I feel your case falls in the slight
chance category and more research is needed (by either you, me or
another) to shed more light on this matter.

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2006 03:36:02

In a message dated 4/12/06 6:06:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mhollick@mac.com
writes:

<< then
we only have the 1505 pedigree of Henry VII's that is in opposition
to the supposition that she was a legitimate daughter. >>

Are you sure about this? I could one.. two.. three seperate sources that do
not mention Elizabeth. Of course you could stretch and say Joan is Elizabeth
and Ratcliffe is Bowes or Anne is Joan or .....

It's a mess. There's no easy way out.

Will

John Brandon

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av John Brandon » 13 apr 2006 04:26:51

It's a mess. There's no easy way out.

Will

Of course you are exaggerating a bit. Many sources in this time period
are sadly lacking, especially when it comes to listing daughters.

I would say that there is a vague, or slight, chance Brad is correct
(Elizabeth Clifford was illegitimate), but see no real reason she could
not be perfectly legitimate.

Gjest

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2006 11:54:06

Dear Brad,

Thank you and yes I agree House of Clifford has some flaws.

Please tell me has Douglas Richardson "Plantagenet Ancestry" been
accepted or ruled out as well.

Page 217 says
" They had 3 sons, ( Henry and Anne St John)
Henry 11th Lord Clifford,Thomas & Edward.
and six daughters
Jane,Mabel m William Fitzwilliam, Anne m Ralph Melford,Eleanor m
Ninian Markenfield & John Constable,Elizabeth m Ralph Bowes and
Margaret m Cuthbert Ratcliffe."

Kind Regards
Brendan wilson
To Reply: remove [.] from around the dot. Stops Spam

Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.

Brad Verity

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 13 apr 2006 17:40:07

Dear Martin,

Comments (but unfortunately, few answers) interspersed.

mhollick@mac.com wrote:

Thanks for your response. Thank you also for recommending the book The
Shepherd Lord of Skipton Castle by Spence. It is seldom you can read
even a short biography on such a minor figure. It does have some clues
to further research avenues.

I've been trying to find a way to contact Dr. Spence, but so far, no
luck.

Not wanting to start a hullabaloo, I have these further observations:

1. Marriage contracts do tend to indicate the period of time in which a
marriage ought to have taken place. Yet, in genealogy, we all know
that for every rule there is an exception. A vexing point of
genealogy is that no one really knows how to apply the exceptions or
rules with any definitive adjective such as always, possibly, probably,
likely, etc. It would be interesting if there other examples of
jointures being made a year or two after a known marriage date.

I can't think of any offhand, but will let you know if I come across
any.

2. Is there an extant dispensation for the marriage of Elizabeth
Clifford and Sir Ralph Bowes who were third cousins via Henry Fitzhugh,
3rd Lord Fitzhugh or 4th cousins, once removed from the 5th Lord
Clifford? That would narrow down their marriage date.

Presumably, if a dispensation was sought and granted, it would have
been by one of the following, and might appear in the corresponding
register book, if it survives:

Thomas Savage, Archbishop of York 1501-1507
Christopher Bainbridge, Bishop of Durham 1507-1508, Archbishop of York
1508-1514
William Senhouse, Bishop of Durham 1502-1505
Thomas Ruthall, Bishop of Durham 1509-1523
Richard Leyburn, Bishop of Carlisle 1502-1508
John Penny, Bishop of Carlisle 1509-1520

3. Has anyone researched the Tonge family? Are there monumental
inscriptions for William and Elizabeth (Clifford) (Bowes) Tonge?

I haven't looked into the Tonge family. It would be great if M.I.s
survived.

4. Is there heraldic evidence where Elizabeth or her husbands use the
St. John arms?

I don't know, but that would conclude the whole question so I hope so.

5. If the 10th Lord Clifford does marry in early 1487 [say January] and
has Elizabeth later in that year, does the chronology not work?

It does work.

Elizabeth born in late 1487, Henry born in 1488/9, Joan in 1489/90,
etc. filling in the names of your posting of March 2006. If (a) the
chronology still works; and (b) her marriage portion was not low; then
we only have the 1505 pedigree of Henry VII's that is in opposition
to the supposition that she was a legitimate daughter.

Correct.

6. Regarding the 1505 pedigree: Are the Clifford daughters the only
known Henry VII relations omitted? Are there others? If so,
wouldn't that reflect badly on this document as a source?

From comparisons I've made of the c.1505 Henry VII Relations pedigrees
with the 1480-1500 Visitation of the North pedigrees, which are

considered to be quite accurate, they match up very well.

In the c.1505 Relations pedigrees, the Clifford children are not listed
in a Clifford pedigree, but rather in the St. John pedigree. As I'm
not familiar with the St. John family, following is the information as
it appears in the c.1505 pedigree, as taken from the 1834 Coll. Top. et
Gen. article. The phrasing in quotations is exactly as it appears in
the 1834 article (pp. 310-311).

"No. XII.
"Of my Lord Welles daughter, Sir Richard Pole, Mistress Verney, Sir
John St. John, with other.
"f.288, 296, 317, 318.
"Margaret Duchess of Somerset had three husbands." By "John Duke of
Somerset" she had "My Lady the King's Mother." who had "The King." who
had "Prince Arthur."
By "Sir Oliver Saint John, first husband." she had 3 daus & 2 sons:

A. "Edith, wedded to Geoffrey Pole of Buckinghamshire." They had:
A1. "Sir Richard Pole, Knt. wedded to the Lady Margaret, dau. of the
Duke of Clarence." They had: "Harry. Arthur."
A2. "Alianor, wedded to Ralph Verney, Esq." They had: "John Verney.
----- [child, unnamed]. -------[another child, unnamed]."

B. "John Ssint John, esq." He had five children:
B1. "Sir John Saint John, Knight." who had "Five daughters and one
son."
B2. "Anne, wedd. to Harry Lord Clifford." They had "Jane. Mabill.
Henry, son and heir. Anne. Thomas. Alianor."
B3. "Elizabeth, wedded to Thomas Kent, Esq. of Lincolnshire."
B4. "A Nun of Shaftesbury."
B5. "Oliver Saint John."

C. "Dame Mary, wedded to Sir Richard Frognall." They had:
C1. "Edmond Frognall and his brethren and sistren." With issue
indicated, but not named.
C2. "Elizabeth, wedded to Sir William Gascoigne, Knt."

D. "Elizabeth, wedded first to the Lord Zouche; after to the Lord
Scrope of Bolton." Issue:
D1. [by Zouche] "Margaret, wedded to William Catesby." They had:
"Elizabeth. George. John. William."
D2. [by Scrope] "Mary, wedded to William Conyers." With issue
indicated but not named.

E. "Oliver Saint John." Had issue:
E1. "Sibella."
E2. "Alianor Lady Harrington."
E3. "John St. John."
E4. "Elizabeth."
E5. "Isabel."

Margaret Duchess of Somerset, by "Lionel Lord Welles, last husband."
had: "John Viscount Welles, wedded Cecily, dau. of K. Edward IV." and
they had "Elizabeth."

If anyone can find any inaccuracies in the above, please let us know.

Finally, I respect your opinion that Elizabeth Clifford's maternity
is uncertain. However, for now, I feel your case falls in the slight
chance category and more research is needed (by either you, me or
another) to shed more light on this matter.

Full agreement. Thanks for the non-hullabaloo response!

Cheers, ---------Brad

Brad Verity

Re: Children of the 10th Lord Clifford redux

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 13 apr 2006 18:21:10

wilson97@paradise.net[.]nz wrote:

Please tell me has Douglas Richardson "Plantagenet Ancestry" been
accepted or ruled out as well.

Page 217 says
" They had 3 sons, ( Henry and Anne St John)
Henry 11th Lord Clifford,Thomas & Edward.
and six daughters
Jane,Mabel m William Fitzwilliam, Anne m Ralph Melford,Eleanor m
Ninian Markenfield & John Constable,Elizabeth m Ralph Bowes and
Margaret m Cuthbert Ratcliffe."

Dear Brendan,

The earliest source for Edward Clifford, son of the 10th Lord Clifford
and Anne St. John, seems to be Collins' Peerage (1812), which was then
followed by J. W. Clay, "The Clifford Family" in 'Yorkshire
Archaeological Journal', Volume 18 (1905), p. 375. As the c.1505 Henry
VII Relations pedigree, the 1563 Visitation of Yorkshire, and Lady Anne
Clifford's 17th-century account of the Cliffords makes no mention of an
Edward Clifford, son of the 10th Lord and Anne St. John, I feel he can
be eliminated. Perhaps he was one of the two unnamed sons of the 10th
Lord and second wife Florence Pudsey, who died young?

I was incorrect in my previous post: it wasn't 'The House of Clifford'
that was the first secondary source to get Elizabeth Clifford's two
marriages correct. J. W. Clay in his 1905 article, says (p. 375):
"Elizabeth; married (1) Sir Ralph Bowes, of Streatlam, who died 1516.
(2) William Tonge. (Flower's 'Visitation of Yorkshire', p. 325.)"
Curiously, the only other daughters Clay assigns to the 10th Lord and
Anne St. John are Mabel and Eleanor.

Douglas and PA3 are only as reliable as the sources he used, all of
which should be checked. He is correct in giving the 10th Lord
Clifford a total of 7 daughters: Joan, Mabel, Anne, Eleanor, Elizabeth,
Margaret and Dorothy. But whether or not Elizabeth and Margaret were
the daughters of Anne St. John is what is currently being discussed.

One further note on your ancestress Dorothy Clifford Lowther that I had
overlooked until now in A.G. Dickens, "Clifford Letters of the
Sixteenth Century" (Surtees Society, Volume 172, 1962), p. 132 n. 22:

"Dr. Williamson ('Lady Anne Clifford', p. 18) saw at Lowther Castle a
receipt dated 22 Henry VIII [1530/31], in which Sir John Lowther
acknowledged receiving from Richard, abbot of Shap, £50, in full
payment of 300 marks owed to him by the first Earl of Cumberland in
connection with the marriage between his son Hugh Lowther and the
Earl's sister Dorothy Clifford. On their numerous offspring, see
'Pedigrees ... of Cumberland and Westmorland', ed. J. Foster, p. 84."

The above was the source Dr. Spence used in "The Shepherd Lord" p. 33,
for his statement that the 10th Lord provided 300 marks for Dorothy's
marriage portion. Yet the quote above does not make it clear whether
or not the 300 marks was the total marriage portion, or a portion of it
that was still owing.

Which of Dorothy Clifford and Hugh Lowther's "numerous offspring" do
you descend from?

Cheers, -----------Brad

Gjest

Re: Alexander 1st Earl of Stirling

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2006 19:25:05

In a message dated 4/13/2006 8:37:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
alex73madrid@yahoo.co.uk writes:

I was wondering whether anyone has a copy, of:
1. Alexander Alexander father of the 1st Earl of Stirling's family tree
and or
2. William Alexander the 1st Earl of Stirling's family tree



Your first step is to go to _www.genealogics.org_
(http://www.genealogics.org)
Find this person in that system and then click on the tab for Descendents.

Then after you've transcribed the dozens of names that are likely to pop up,
you'll feel very very tired I'm sure.

Will Johnson

Bob Turcott

RE: Surname Profiler - a helpful guide to surname frequency

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 13 apr 2006 19:49:02

Thanks a bunch for this! it lead me to research an aldridge
surname of britian & england & in my family, I would suspect I may find
some very interesting things about this surname found in this search
engine




From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Surname Profiler - a helpful guide to surname frequency
Date: 13 Apr 2006 00:11:23 -0700
Dear Newsgroup ~

Those interested in surname frequency will want to visit the Surname
Profiler Project at the following weblink:

http://www.spatial-literacy.org/UCLnames/default.aspx

This website is based on a recent research project based at University
College London (UCL) which investigated the distribution of surnames in
Great Britain, both current and historic, in order to understand
patterns of regional economic development, population movement and
cultural identity. This website allows users to search the databases
that they have created, and to trace the geography and history of their
family names.

I searched the website for my own surname, Richardson, and it showed
that the heaviest concentrations of this name derive from the north of
England. All in all, this website is a helpful tool for genealogists.


Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net


_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm0 ... direct/01/

Douglas Richardson

Re: Surname Profiler - a helpful guide to surname frequency

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 13 apr 2006 20:47:05

Dear Bob ~

You're quite welcome. The Surname Profiler is definitely a jim dandy
resource for genealogists.

Best always, Douglas Richardson

"Bob Turcott" wrote:
Thanks a bunch for this! it lead me to research an aldridge
surname of britian & england & in my family, I would suspect I may find
some very interesting things about this surname found in this search
engine




From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Surname Profiler - a helpful guide to surname frequency
Date: 13 Apr 2006 00:11:23 -0700
Dear Newsgroup ~

Those interested in surname frequency will want to visit the Surname
Profiler Project at the following weblink:

http://www.spatial-literacy.org/UCLnames/default.aspx

This website is based on a recent research project based at University
College London (UCL) which investigated the distribution of surnames in
Great Britain, both current and historic, in order to understand
patterns of regional economic development, population movement and
cultural identity. This website allows users to search the databases
that they have created, and to trace the geography and history of their
family names.

I searched the website for my own surname, Richardson, and it showed
that the heaviest concentrations of this name derive from the north of
England. All in all, this website is a helpful tool for genealogists.


Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net


_________________________________________________________________
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm0 ... direct/01/

Gjest

Re: Alexander 1st Earl of Stirling

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2006 22:44:02

Dear Alex,
The Stirnet Genealogy website includes a database called
Alexander1 which covers the first 5 Earls of Stirling and descendants, hopefully
It`s correct.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Margery/Margaret d'Oilly, wife of Waleran

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 apr 2006 00:32:02

In a message dated 4/13/06 11:15:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< [Reference: Arthur William Crawley-Boevey, The Cartulary and Historical
Notes of the Cistercian Abbey of Flaxley, otherwise called Dene Abbey
in the County of Gloucester (1887): 70, 144]. I might add that the
given names, Margery and Margaret, were completely interchangeable in
this time period.

Those who wish to examine the published transcript of Roger de Pultun's
charter may do so at the following weblink:


http://books.google.com/books?id=3iqtyL ... -8&jtp=144 >>

The relevant text reads : "... pro anima Comitis Willelmi de Warrewic et pro
anima Comitiffae Margaretae de Oilli et pro falute heredum meorum in
perpetuam..."

Can someone who can read this, tell me whether this indicates that William
and Margaret were husband and wife? I believe http://www.genealogics.org has it that
Margery de Oilly was the wife of Walleran's son
Henry de Newburgh, 5th Earl of Warwick (d bef 17 Oct 1229)

Is Walleran really the same as Willelmi ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Margery/Margaret d'Oilly, wife of Waleran

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 apr 2006 00:39:02

In a message dated 4/13/06 11:15:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< [Reference: Arthur William Crawley-Boevey, The Cartulary and Historical
Notes of the Cistercian Abbey of Flaxley, otherwise called Dene Abbey
in the County of Gloucester (1887): 70, 144]. I might add that the
given names, Margery and Margaret, were completely interchangeable in
this time period. >>

From page 70 of this work the author states that this charter (paraphrased)
says: "Roger, son of Ralph de Pulton, granted to the monks for the soul of Earl
William of Warwick and Countess Margaret de Oilli, and for his own salvation
and that of his wife Margaret, five shillings of annual rent from the land
held by Gilbert de Felda and Godwin de Pultum before him. The grantor states
that these five shillings were specially assigned for the purchase of bed clothes
for poor guests. Roger and his wife Margaret gave themselves living and dead
to the church of Dene, and their bodies for burial whereever they might die."

Is there some knowledge that these Pulton's were connected by marriage to the
Earl of Warwick?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Text of a charter of RUAIDHRI MAC RAGHNAILL.

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 apr 2006 01:01:01

In a message dated 4/13/2006 5:45:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bankss@carnegielibrary.org writes:

The text of a charter of Ruaidhri mac Raghnaill meic Somhairlidh, printed as
an appendix to Duncan and Brown's
Argyll and the Isles in the Earlier Middle Ages, shows Ruaidhri granting
lands to the church of St. John in Kintyre
and is dated, by Duncan and Brown, only as "probably before 1222". The text
identifies Ruaidhri as
Rochericus Reginaldi filius domini de Kyntyre, that is 'Roderick (Ruaidhri)
son of Reginald (Raghnall) lord of Kintyre.'
(Duncan and Brown, p. 219, Appendix III).

W.D.H. Sellar (Sellar p. 201), and more recently, Noel Murray (Murray, p.
291, note 25) have used this to state
that Ruaidhri is styling himself 'Lord of Kintyre', but if the Latin case
endings are indeed correct, wouldn't 'domini' be
describing 'Reginaldi'? Sellar even emends the text in his article from
'domini' to 'dominus'. Duncan and Brown make
no comment on the form of the title, merely stating that "Roderick, however,
twice appears in the charters of the
early 13th century as holding land in Kintyre..." (Duncan and Brown, p. 200)

Shouldn't this be read 'Ruaidhri, the son of Raghnaill lord of Kintyre'
instead of 'Ruaidhri, the son of Raghnaill, lord of Kintyre',
i.e. that at the time of the recording of the charter that it was Raghnall
who was designated 'lord of Kintyre' and not his son Ruaidhri?
If true, I don't think the assumption can be made that Raghnall was alive at
the time of the
recording of the charter, he may or may not have been - there's no reason he
couldn't be described as
'lord' (i.e. previously) even if he were dead. Therefore, couldn't the text
be interpreted to read 'Ruaidhri,
the son of Raghnaill (current, or previous) lord of Kintyre' and have
Ruaidhri granting lands without holding titular authority?

If Raghnall was alive - why is he not the benefactor?

If Raghnall was dead, who had become 'lord of Kintyre' after his death if
not Ruadhri? Was it his brother
Domhnall; contrary to the theory that Domhnall did not hold Kintyre until
after the royal expeditions of the early 1220's?





Dear Steve,

I can only answer part of your question. "Reginaldi filii Sumerled" died in
1207 so he would have been deceased when the above charter was written.

"Rochericus Reginaldi filius domini de Kyntyre" reads "Roderick, son of
Reginald Lord of Kyntyre" and that is what the endings indicate as you stated
above.

The only charters I have concerning these men are from Paisley Abbey and
were written 1190-1195. The following are only excerpts:

Registrum Monasterii de Passelet, Cartas Privilegia Conventiones alique
Munimenta Complectens, 1163-1529, edited by Cosmo Innes, Bannatyne Club,
Edinburgh 1832, Page 125:
Carta Reginaldi filii Sumerled domini Inchegal, de uno denario ex qualibet
domo in terra sua de quibus exit sumus.
Sciant omnes tam presentes quam futuri quod ego Reginaldus filius Sumerled
dominus de Inchegal factus sum frater, et uxor mea Fonie soror, in capitulo
domus de Passelet et in toto ordine Cluniacensi;.....Hiis testibus, Ameleo
filio Gillecolmi, Gillecolmo filio Gilmihel, Mauricio capellano meo, et multis
aliis, ibi tunc presentibus.

This was confirmed by his son Douenaldi filii Reginaldi Sumerled either at
or near the same time as the witnesses to both charters are identical:

Page 126:
Carta Douenaldi filii Reginaldi Sumerled, de uno denario capiendo ex
qualibet domo in terra sua unde sumus exit.
Sciant omnes tam presentes quam futuri quod ego Douenaldus filius Reginaldi
filii Sumerled factus sum frater, et uxor mea soror, in capitulo domus de
Passelet et in toto ordine Cluniacensi; ..... Hiis testibus, Ameleo filio
Gilcolmi, Gilcolmo filio Gilmichel, Mauricio capellano, et multis aliis ex propriis
hominibus meis.

Best regards,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Margery/Margaret d'Oilly, wife of Waleran

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 apr 2006 01:05:03

In a message dated 4/13/2006 6:30:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

The relevant text reads : "... pro anima Comitis Willelmi de Warrewic et pro

anima Comitiffae Margaretae de Oilli et pro falute heredum meorum in
perpetuam..."



Dear Will,

It reads "for the soul of Earl William of Warwick and for the soul of
Countess Margaret of Oilli and for the weal [safety] of my heirs in perpetuity"

MichaelAnne

Paul K Davis

RE: Peter Breouse, donsel, of the diocese of Norfolk.

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 14 apr 2006 04:10:02

I'm pretty sure an "indult" was an indulgence, that it a variation from the
normal religious rules. I don't know about a "donsel".

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Paul Mackenzie <paul.mackenzie@ozemail.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 4/8/2006 12:05:49 AM
Subject: Peter Breouse, donsel, of the diocese of Norfolk.

Hi All

I found the following reference, which is one of many of similar type.

Does anyone have an idea what the word Indult, and donsel mean in this
context??

Also what was the idea behind these "indults".

1345
Indults to the underwritten persons to choose confessors, who shall give
them, being penitent, plenary remission at the hour of death, with the
usual safeguards:---
To Peter Breouse, donsel, of the diocese of Norfolk
2 Non Jan (f.275d) Cal. Pet. I 83
Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and
Ireland.: Papal.
REGESTA, VOL CLXIV p160


Kind Regards

Paul

Bette Noir

Re: More on Richardson's WIRTWL's and Faris' Work

Legg inn av Bette Noir » 14 apr 2006 08:34:58

On , , 16 Mar 2006 17:02:06 -0800, More on Richardson's WIRTWL's
and Faris' Work, "CED" <leesmyth@cox.net> wrote:

To the Newsgroup:

I have been contacted privately by several persons asking about my
problem with Richardson.

You're a sad , sick stalker. Your posts reek of jealousy. You are
destroying what was once a great, informative NewsGroup.


---
"...Duas tantum res anxius optat,
Panem et circenses." --Juvenal

Alex

Re: Alexander 1st Earl of Stirling

Legg inn av Alex » 14 apr 2006 12:28:49

Ok, thanks for that. Hopefully, it is.

Alex

Re: Alexander 1st Earl of Stirling

Legg inn av Alex » 14 apr 2006 13:30:18

Ok, thanks for that. Hopefully, it is.

Gjest

Re: Captain William Whittington of Virginia

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 apr 2006 19:07:02

In a message dated 10/04/2006 Judith Taylor set out the terms of the Will
dated May 1659 of Captain William Whittington of Virginia, in which he refers
to his wife Ursulie, and she also mentioned the record of his *widow* Eliza's
remarriage to William Spencer.There is an apparent inconsistency here. How can
it be resolved?
As to Capatain W.W's origins, there were two contemporary W.Ws descended
from the Whittingtons of Pauntley. Richard Whittington, 2nd son of Alexander
Whittington of Notgrove, Glos, and Holme Lacy, Hds, married Maria Hereford of
Sufton. They had a fourth son named William, who must have been born by 1608,
when his mother died. Also Richard's eldest son John, who married Bridget
Higford of Dickleton, Glos, at Alderton, Glos, on 1st May 1610, had a son named
William.
I know nothing to suggest that either of the W.Ws should be identified with
the Captain, and indeed have no further information about either of them

John Brandon

Re: Possible royal line for Lionel Chute of Ipswich, Mass.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 14 apr 2006 22:38:51

_VCH Warwickshire_, 6:113:

The advowson [of Hillmorton], like the other properties of this
college, was in 1546 granted to Henry, Marquess of Dorset, and Frances
his wife, and was in possession of the latter at her death in 1559. It
then passed to the Marquess of Hertford, husband of her second
daughter, who presented in 1565. Probably owing to the validity of
this marriage being questioned the patronage reverted to the Crown, and
was granted in 1577-8 to Christopher Chute for 21 years, and renewed to
the same in 1589-90. Another grant was made in 1608-9 to Francis
Philip and Richard More, who must have parted with their interest
fairly soon ...

Other than this one mention, I don't find any Chutes at Hillmorton, co.
Warwick. Henry Grey (Marquess of Dorset) and his wife Frances were the
parents of Lady Mary Grey alias Keys, once more underscoring her
connection with Christopher Chute. I don't suppose Lady Mary had
actually remarried to Chute, but perhaps one of Thomas Keys' daughters
became his wife (?).

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... LvdtsM7HjQ



John Brandon wrote:
John Brandon wrote:
The following item, from _N & Q_, which shows an association between
Lady Mary Grey, wife of Martin Keys, and one Christopher Chowte or
Chute, may tend to strengthen the claim that this Chute family has a
line from the Crispes of Birchington. (The HOP biography of Martin
Keys shows he was related to the Crispe family).

That's Thomas Keys, rather than Martin Keys.

Just noticed that Pearman's article on the Chutes (very last page)
notes in passing that Arthur and his second wife, Margaret Playters,
are buried at Ellough, Suffolk, which is very near Brampton (and
Wrentham).

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi? ... 000&addr1=

Pearman's article doesn't show a Christopher among the descendants of
Philip (d. 1566), so the Christopher Chute involved with Mary Grey may
be the one shown on the New England chart (close relative of Lionel).


Gjest

Re: Happy Easter

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 apr 2006 00:58:04

To All,
Be You Western Christian, Jewish or belong to any of the Orthodox
Churches, have a Happy Easter or Happy Passover,
to our Atheist , Islamic, Buddhist, Hindi or any others, I apologize if You
have a religious holiday I know not of and hope this next fortnight like the
remainder of the year shall be good to You.
I know this is way OT, but I believe Amenhotep III not Seti
I / Rameses II is the true Pharoah of the Exodus. Consider his elder son and
co-regent Thutmose V`s sudden inexplicable death followed closely by Amenhotep
III `s and the new co-regent Atenkhuen (formerly Amenhotep IV`s total
rejection of Amen-Ra, Mut, Osirius, Isis, Horus et cetera. I realize that Atenkuen
and Nefertiti are considered some sort of revolutionary geniuses, but all
revolutions as complete as the one They temporarily won were begun because of some
cataclysmic event, which I believe the plagues surely would have been, plus
Atenkhuen while knowing of Yahweh the unseen, would not have had any of the
Judaic symbolism as that all came during and after the Exodus.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Tony Hoskins

Re: Happy Easter

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 15 apr 2006 01:15:02

Happy Easter to you, too, James - and to all others likewise
celebrating.

Tony

Jwc1870@aol.com> 04/14/06 03:57PM
To All,

Be You Western Christian, Jewish or belong to any of the
Orthodox
Churches, have a Happy Easter or Happy Passover,
to our Atheist , Islamic, Buddhist, Hindi or any others, I apologize if
You
have a religious holiday I know not of and hope this next fortnight
like the
remainder of the year shall be good to You.
I know this is way OT, but I believe Amenhotep III not
Seti
I / Rameses II is the true Pharoah of the Exodus. Consider his elder
son and
co-regent Thutmose V`s sudden inexplicable death followed closely by
Amenhotep
III `s and the new co-regent Atenkhuen (formerly Amenhotep IV`s total
rejection of Amen-Ra, Mut, Osirius, Isis, Horus et cetera. I realize
that Atenkuen
and Nefertiti are considered some sort of revolutionary geniuses, but
all
revolutions as complete as the one They temporarily won were begun
because of some
cataclysmic event, which I believe the plagues surely would have been,
plus
Atenkhuen while knowing of Yahweh the unseen, would not have had any of
the
Judaic symbolism as that all came during and after the Exodus.
Sincerely,



James W Cummings


Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: early English Whittingtons (was: Captain William Whittin

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 apr 2006 02:51:02

In a message dated 4/14/06 3:19:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
judith.taylor@planet.nl writes:

<< I would be glad to hear from anyone who can
provide me with information or lead me to sources about early English
Whittingtons. >>

It's a very broad request. I've done work on the families and most of my
notes derive from the a2a collection.
Will

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Margery/Margaret d'Oilly, wife of Waleran

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 apr 2006 03:53:03

In a message dated 4/14/06 2:06:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<< It looks to me as though the less common name "Walerani" (probably in an
abbreviated form) has been miscopied into the cartulary as the more common
"Willelmi". Otherwise I'd find this evidence difficult to reconcile with the
revised scheme. >>

William de Newburgh, 3rd Count of Warwick m Margaret de Oilly
and then his nephew
Henry de Newburgh, 5th Count of Warwick m Margery de Oilly

perhaps. Not necessarily the same woman, but maybe an aunt and niece
combination to match the uncle and nephew combination ;)

Will

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Montfichet Arms Intrepretation

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 15 apr 2006 07:41:54

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 6 Apr, "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk
wrote:

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
I recall seeing somewhere (not very helpful, I know) a citation to a
scholarly study of the "Clare family of arms", being an analysis of
a cluster of similar early shields among families with ties,
genealogical or feudal, to the early Clares.

I _think_ this was by J. H. Round - possibly in his book on Geoffrey
de Mandeville?

Indeed yes, he treats of the matter in Appendix U, pp. 388-396. He
discusses the similarities between the Mandeville and de Vere arms and
concludes that the latter adopted (or copied) the former.

Round does not mention in this article the similarities of various arms
to those of Clare.


I finally found the citation I was thinking of.

CP has an appendix written by Geoffrey H. White entitled "The Warenne
Group of Checkered Shields". This article discusses a cluster of
checked shields used by the descendants of Isabel de Vermandois -
specifically the Earls of Leicester, Warwick & Surrey, the Counts of
Meulan, and the Craon family. (While this study was limited to these
groups, it could perhaps have been extended further - Isabel's brother
also appears to have used a checked shield, and the checked motif shows
up among other scions of the Capet, while the azure and or combination
is widespread among the 'Capets'.) This appendix cites two other
studies of extended families of arms:

1) "the Mandeville-Vere group", as Tim has indicated, and the one I was
thinking of,

2) "the Clare group of shields with chevrons", Round, Archaeological
Jrl. vol. li, pp. 43-48.


taf

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Happy Easter

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 15 apr 2006 08:01:01

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: Happy Easter


| I know this is way OT, but I believe Amenhotep III not Seti
| I / Rameses II is the true Pharoah of the Exodus. Consider his elder son and
| co-regent Thutmose V`s sudden inexplicable death followed closely by Amenhotep
| III `s and the new co-regent Atenkhuen (formerly Amenhotep IV`s total
| rejection of Amen-Ra, Mut, Osirius, Isis, Horus et cetera. I realize that Atenkuen
| and Nefertiti are considered some sort of revolutionary geniuses, but all
| revolutions as complete as the one They temporarily won were begun because of some
| cataclysmic event, which I believe the plagues surely would have been, plus
| Atenkhuen while knowing of Yahweh the unseen, would not have had any of the
| Judaic symbolism as that all came during and after the Exodus.
| Sincerely,
|
| James W Cummings

Paul C. Doherty has a book out, (1st of a trilogy, [This is the singular thing which I hold against J. R. R. Tolkien - a torrent of trilogies]), entitled _An Evil Wind out of the West_, which is his rendition of 'the confession of Mahu'. He writes with the premise that the Akhmin gang were Abiru, (which he never explains, nor defines, beyond calling them Semitic), and the source of AkhnAten's monotheïsm - although Akhy went, ultimately, terribly 'wrong'. Good read, unsound history. Normally I would have said, 'bad genealogy'; but he seems to be getting better.

Ford

'[W]hat a dull deity Chance is in comparison to those it has vanquished. Dressed up as cool rationality - how rational it is, after all, to assert that there is no reason for anything - it appeals only to the impoverished of spirit.'
- Iain Pears, _The Dream of Scipio_, (2002)

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Addition: Margery/Margaret d'Oilly, wife of Waleran

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 15 apr 2006 08:33:05

Will Johnson wrote:
William de Newburgh, 3rd Count of Warwick m Margaret de Oilly
and then his nephew
Henry de Newburgh, 5th Count of Warwick m Margery de Oilly

perhaps. Not necessarily the same woman, but maybe an aunt and niece
combination to match the uncle and nephew combination ;)

I think it's clear enough from the evidence presented by Rosie Bevan - and
more that's emerged since then - that the alleged marriage of Earl Henry to
an Oilly is simply an error. Instead, it appeared from that evidence that
Earl Waleran's wife was the first-born daughter of Henry de Oilly (from whom
Earl Henry's children were said to have issued - "exierunt"):
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/ ... shtml#p363

In that context - and given what's known about Earl William - the only way I
can see of making sense of things is if the charter posted by Douglas
Richardson, mentioning an Earl _William_ and a Countess Margaret de Oilly,
apparently man and wife, refers to the same couple - Earl _Waleran_ and the
daughter of Henry de Oilly.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Montfichet Arms Intrepretation

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 apr 2006 09:17:40

Try http://perso.modulonet.fr/~earlyblazo/
and look at 'heraldic groups'

regards

Geoff

Nathaniel Taylor

[OT] Re: Happy Easter

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 15 apr 2006 13:32:10

In article <005101c66053$01a0b820$5c3afc18@om.cox.net>,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford Mommaerts-Browne") wrote:

Paul C. Doherty has a book out, (1st of a trilogy, [This is the singular
thing which I hold against J. R. R. Tolkien - a torrent of trilogies]),

Blame Allen & Unwin: he wrote LOTR as a single book.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Renia

Re: [OT] Re: Happy Easter

Legg inn av Renia » 15 apr 2006 13:39:18

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <005101c66053$01a0b820$5c3afc18@om.cox.net>,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford Mommaerts-Browne") wrote:


Paul C. Doherty has a book out, (1st of a trilogy, [This is the singular
thing which I hold against J. R. R. Tolkien - a torrent of trilogies]),


Blame Allen & Unwin: he wrote LOTR as a single book.

I have it as a single book from about 30 years ago!

Gjest

Re: Happy Easter

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 apr 2006 15:03:02

Renia writes:

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article <005101c66053$01a0b820$5c3afc18@om.cox.net>,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford Mommaerts-Browne") wrote:


Paul C. Doherty has a book out, (1st of a trilogy, [This is the singular
thing which I hold against J. R. R. Tolkien - a torrent of trilogies]),


Blame Allen & Unwin: he wrote LOTR as a single book.

I have it as a single book from about 30 years ago!


It was originally published as 3 books between 1954 and 1955. I remember
reading the first and having to wait for the next to be issued.

The introduction to the first part by JRRT talks about the book (singular)
throughout as if he were thinking of it as a single book carrying on from
The Hobbit (this intro is from the first printing, it may have changed
later)

It was several years later when it became a cult that the three were
combined into a single volume (also with corrections)

cheers

Simon

Gjest

Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 apr 2006 19:35:03

Ian,

Thanks for your message.

It looks as though Alice Broun went on to marry John Brugge, as I have found
the following sent by Douglas Richardson in January 2000:-

"In the period, 1538-1544, Edward Woton, knight, Mary Danett and Anthony
Coke, esquire, son and heir of John Coke, sued John Brugge and Alice his
wife, late the wife of Edward Belknap, knight, in Chancery regarding the
"manor of Weston-under-Weatherley, co. Warwick, late of the said Sir Edward
Belknap, brother of the said Mary and uncle of the said Sir Edward Woton and
John Coke" [Reference: List of Early Chancery Proceedings, 8 (PRO, London,
Lists and Indexes, No. LI): 252]."

I am still working on exactly who these Browns were

regards, and happy Easter,

Adrian

Tony Ingham wrote:

I'd suggest that it is highly likely as Nuneaton is common to both

Edward Belknap and the remainder heir 'John Brown'.


A History of the County of Warwick: Volume 4: Hemlingford Hundred
(1947), pp. 165-73.
The borough of Nuneaton.
The manor of STOCKINGFORD may be identified with the messuages, mill,
and land there granted in 1280 by Hugh de Lilleburne to his son Hugh.
(fn. 75) In 1336 Roger Jabet granted the manor to William Jabet and
Maud, with reversion to their son William and his wife Ellen. (fn. 76)
The latter in 1365 bought the reversion of lands here from John Wale and
Edith his wife after the death of Elia widow of Nicholas de Lilleburne,
whose heir Edith was. (fn. 77) Hugh Jabet, mentioned as of Stockingford
in 1373, (fn. 78) may be identical with Hugh Lilleburne, called son and
heir of William Jabet, (fn. 79) who was lord of Stockingford between
1400 and 1413. (fn. 80) At the latter date the manor was held of him for
the life of Hugh by John son of Thomas Boteler of Exhall, and the
reversion was granted by Hugh Lilleburne to trustees who conveyed it to
the Priory of Arbury. (fn. 81) This was probably in connexion with the
foundation of a chantry in Arbury Priory Church in 1417 by Hugh
Lilleburne for his own soul and those of his parents, William and Ellen.
(fn. 82) In 1424 this John Boteler, and a certain Roger Levyng, made
over their respective rights in the manor to the priory, (fn. 83) and in
1469 Henry son and heir of John Boteler released his claims. (fn. 84) In
1535 Arbury Priory possessed lands and tenements in Stockingford valued
at £13 16s. 1d., and rents worth £1 3s. 4d., together with lands worth
£5 6s. 8d. in Nuneaton; (fn. 85) while the Priory of Nuneaton held lands
here valued at £9 1s. 6d. (fn. 86) After the Dissolution the Arbury
lands were granted to Sir Edward Wootton, John Danett, and Anthony
Cooke. (fn. 87) In 1544 Mary Danett, widow (of Gerard Danett), mortgaged
her purparty to George Medley, (fn. 88) to the use of Sir Edward
Wootton, who was her nephew. (fn. 89) One-third was granted by Thomas
Wootton son of Sir Edward, to Richard Cooke in 1577, (fn. 90) and in
1584 (fn. 91) his son Anthony Cooke granted the whole manor to Edmund
Parker. (fn. 92) The former possessions of Nuneaton Priory meanwhile
followed the descent of Nuneaton Manor (q.v.) and came into the hands of
Sir Henry Willoughby, who had also acquired the Parkers' manorial rights
by 1631. (fn. 93) He seems to have bestowed the manor on his daughter
Anne, (fn. 94) and she and her husband Sir Thomas Aston held it in 1639,
(fn. 95) since which time Stockingford has been united to Nuneaton.
Footnote
87 L. and P. Hen. VIII, xiii (2), 1182 (18 n.). The fee farm rents
from them were assigned to Charles, Duke of Suffolk: ibid. These three
persons were coheirs of Sir Edward Belknap.

Happy Easter

Tony Ingham
<<<<

Gjest

Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 apr 2006 19:43:02

Ian,
~~

opps, sorry, I mean Tony,

Thanks for your message.

It looks as though Alice Broun went on to marry John Brugge, as I have found
the following sent by Douglas Richardson in January 2000:- ...

Douglas Richardson

Re: Breaking the line Baldwin Freville b 1350 --> John 1st L

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 17 apr 2006 21:58:31

Dear Will ~

You appear to have confused two different Baldwin de Freville's. The
Baldwin de Freville who married Elizabeth de Montfort was the son and
heir of Alexander de Freville, died 1328, of Tamworth, Staffordshire,
by his wife, Joan, daughter of Ralph de Cromwell. This Baldwin de
Freville was born about 1292 or 1298, he being aged 30 or 36 at his
father's death in 1328. He died overseas 3 October 1343.

Elizabeth de Montfort's parents were John de Montfort, 1st Lord
Montfort, of Beaudesert, Warwickshire, and his wife, Alice, daughter of
William de la Plaunche, lord of la Plaunche [see Complete Peerage, 9
(1936): 128 (sub Montfort); Genealogist n.s. 14 (1897): 104]. John and
Alice were married shortly before 28 March 1287, when King Edward I, in
an unpublished letter, ordered his lieutenant in England to deal
favorably with John de Montfort who had married a cousin of the Queen
(see Public Record Office, S.C. 1/45/46; citation courtesy of J.C.
Parsons). Alice de la Plaunche, widow of John de Montfort, was living
as late as Easter Term 1309, when William Morin of Kineton,
Warwickshire was attached to answer her "concerning a plea why with
force and arms he entered the castle of the same Alice at Beaudesert
and took and carried away her goods and chattels found there to the
value of one hundred shillings" [see M.S. Arnold Select Cases of
Trespass from the King's Court 1307-1399 1 (Selden Soc. 100) (1985):
126-127]. On the basis of similarity of arms, Mr. Parsons has
speculated that the de la Plaunche family were a cadet branch of the
Fiennes family. This appears to be a reasonable assumption, but I've
been unable to confirm the connection.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants who descend from Sir Baldwin de Freville, died 1343, and his
wife, Elizabeth de Montfort:

Dannett Abney, Nathaniel Browne, Charles Calvert, Grace Chetwode,
Jeremy Clarke, Henry Corbin, Katherine Hamby, Henry, Jane & Nicholas
Lowe, Thomas Owsley, Mary Johanna Somerset, Olive Welby.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Recently while forging new links between various medieval families in my
database I came across an apparent error at stirnet.

http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/briti ... htm#linklo

Here we see John de Montfort of Beaudesert who d bef 11 May 1296
with, among others, a daughter Elizabeth Montfort who married
Sir Baldwin de Freville of Tamworth b c 1318


Since Elizabeth's father died bef 11 May 1296, then Elizabeth had to be born
by 1297 at the latest.
Did Baldwin b c 1318 really marry a woman at least 21 years older than
himself?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Breaking the line Baldwin Freville b 1350 --> John 1st L

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 apr 2006 22:02:02

Recently while forging new links between various medieval families in my
database I came across an apparent error at stirnet.

http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/briti ... htm#linklo

Here we see John de Montfort of Beaudesert who d bef 11 May 1296
with, among others, a daughter Elizabeth Montfort who married
Sir Baldwin de Freville of Tamworth b c 1318


Since Elizabeth's father died bef 11 May 1296, then Elizabeth had to be born
by 1297 at the latest.
Did Baldwin b c 1318 really marry a woman at least 21 years older than
himself?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Breaking the line Baldwin Freville b 1350 --> John 1st L

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 apr 2006 23:41:02

In a message dated 4/17/06 2:07:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< You appear to have confused two different Baldwin de Freville's. The
Baldwin de Freville who married Elizabeth de Montfort was the son and
heir of Alexander de Freville, died 1328, of Tamworth, >>


Thanks for this confirmation. I had actually tentatively pushed her up a
generation to be this wife you mention above.

This mistake is not mine, I was quoting stirnet who has it exactly as I
stated in my first email message, although with a note that she might be the mother
not wife of the Baldwin they have attached her to.

This also helps me narrow the date ranges for Alexander Freville and Joan
Cromwell

Will

Douglas Richardson

Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 18 apr 2006 02:22:07

Dear Will ~

Henry (or Harry) Belknap, Esq., died 1488, and his wife, Margaret
Knollys, had six children in all:

1. Edward Belknap, Knt.
2. Alice, wife of William Shelley, Knt.
3. Anne, wife of Robert Wotton, Knt.
4. Elizabeth, wife of Philip Cooke (or Coke), Knt.
5. Mary, wife of Gerard Dannett.
6. Griselde, wife of John Caryll.

For evidence of the daughter Griselde, see Baker, Reports of Cases by
John Caryll 1 (Selden Soc. 115) (1999): xi-xv (biog. of John Caryll).

For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants who descend from Henry (or Harry) Belknap, Esq., and his
wife, Margaret Knollys:

Dorothy Beresford, Elizabeth Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Matthew Kempe,
Mary Johanna Somerset

For the connecting links between the individual immigrants and the
Belknap famly, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004), and
Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
< In a message dated 4/16/06 10:34:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
< ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<
< << "In the period, 1538-1544, Edward Woton, knight, Mary Danett and
Anthony
< Coke, esquire, son and heir of John Coke, sued John Brugge and
Alice his
< wife, late the wife of Edward Belknap, knight, in Chancery
regarding the
< "manor of Weston-under-Weatherley, co. Warwick, late of the said
Sir Edward
< Belknap, brother of the said Mary and uncle of the said Sir Edward
Woton
< and
< John Coke" [Reference: List of Early Chancery Proceedings, 8 (PRO,
London,
< Lists and Indexes, No. LI): 252]." >>
<
<
< Regarding this suit, I have this Belknap family now, as follows
< Henry Belknap and Margaret Knollys, both died in 1488
< Their children were
< 1) Elizabeth d 1517 married 1472 Sir Philip Cooke of Gidea Park,
Essex d 7
< Dec 1503
< 2) Mary d 1568 married Gerard Danet, Esq d 1520
< 3) Anne married Robert Wotton of Bocton Malherbe b 1465
< 4) Edward married Alice Brown
< 5) Alice married William Shelley
<
< There may be other children. Comments appreciated.
< Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 apr 2006 03:05:21

In a message dated 4/16/06 10:34:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

<< "In the period, 1538-1544, Edward Woton, knight, Mary Danett and Anthony
Coke, esquire, son and heir of John Coke, sued John Brugge and Alice his
wife, late the wife of Edward Belknap, knight, in Chancery regarding the
"manor of Weston-under-Weatherley, co. Warwick, late of the said Sir Edward
Belknap, brother of the said Mary and uncle of the said Sir Edward Woton
and
John Coke" [Reference: List of Early Chancery Proceedings, 8 (PRO, London,
Lists and Indexes, No. LI): 252]." >>


Regarding this suit, I have this Belknap family now, as follows
Henry Belknap and Margaret Knollys, both died in 1488
Their children were
1) Elizabeth d 1517 married 1472 Sir Philip Cooke of Gidea Park, Essex d 7
Dec 1503
2) Mary d 1568 married Gerard Danet, Esq d 1520
3) Anne married Robert Wotton of Bocton Malherbe b 1465
4) Edward married Alice Brown
5) Alice married William Shelley

There may be other children. Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics - Jane Stanhope / Roger Townshend

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 apr 2006 05:18:01

Here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 1&tree=LEO

we see Jane Stanhope, dau of Michael Stanhope/Anne Rawson
Jane married first to Sir Roger Townshend
Leo's has no birthyear for Jane or Roger and no marriage year

Here now is a primary document that implies they married in or shortly after
1560. And further, explicitly calls her Anne's "youngest daughter"

Will Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Centre for Kentish Studies: Stanhope of Chevening Manuscripts [U1590/F,C]
Stanhope of Chevening Manuscripts
Catalogue Ref. U1590
Creator(s): Stanhope family, Earls Stanhope

CORRESPONDENCE (Letters and Papers)
Anne, Lady Stanhope
FILE - Letter from Duke of Norfolk referring to the proposed marriage of Jane
her youngest dau. to Sir Roger Townshend of Raynham (co. Norf.) - ref.
U1590/C1/1 - date: 1560

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 18 apr 2006 05:24:02

Thankyou for this information Doug. I didn't have his wife's name or their
death dates, or their children other than Alice. I do have a note next to
Henry Belknap's name saying "Doug Richardson has him descending from the
Botelers of Sudeley, Glos." Would it be possible for you to post this
descent please?
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick

-------Original Message-------

From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 04/18/06 11:07:07
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Dear Will ~

Henry (or Harry) Belknap, Esq., died 1488, and his wife, Margaret
Knollys, had six children in all:

1. Edward Belknap, Knt.
2. Alice, wife of William Shelley, Knt.
3. Anne, wife of Robert Wotton, Knt.
4. Elizabeth, wife of Philip Cooke (or Coke), Knt.
5. Mary, wife of Gerard Dannett.
6. Griselde, wife of John Caryll.

For evidence of the daughter Griselde, see Baker, Reports of Cases by
John Caryll 1 (Selden Soc. 115) (1999): xi-xv (biog. of John Caryll).

For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants who descend from Henry (or Harry) Belknap, Esq., and his
wife, Margaret Knollys:

Dorothy Beresford, Elizabeth Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Matthew Kempe,
Mary Johanna Somerset

For the connecting links between the individual immigrants and the
Belknap famly, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004), and
Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
< In a message dated 4/16/06 10:34:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
< ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
<
< << "In the period, 1538-1544, Edward Woton, knight, Mary Danett and
Anthony
< Coke, esquire, son and heir of John Coke, sued John Brugge and
Alice his
< wife, late the wife of Edward Belknap, knight, in Chancery
regarding the
< "manor of Weston-under-Weatherley, co. Warwick, late of the said
Sir Edward
< Belknap, brother of the said Mary and uncle of the said Sir Edward
Woton
< and
< John Coke" [Reference: List of Early Chancery Proceedings, 8 (PRO,
London,
< Lists and Indexes, No. LI): 252]." >>
<
<
< Regarding this suit, I have this Belknap family now, as follows
< Henry Belknap and Margaret Knollys, both died in 1488
< Their children were
< 1) Elizabeth d 1517 married 1472 Sir Philip Cooke of Gidea Park,
Essex d 7
< Dec 1503
< 2) Mary d 1568 married Gerard Danet, Esq d 1520
< 3) Anne married Robert Wotton of Bocton Malherbe b 1465
< 4) Edward married Alice Brown
< 5) Alice married William Shelley
<
< There may be other children. Comments appreciated.
< Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 apr 2006 06:03:02

In a message dated 4/17/06 8:22:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Henry Belknap's name saying "Doug Richardson has him descending from the
Botelers of Sudeley, Glos." >>


Marilyn it's short.
Henry's mother was Joan le Boteler
Joan's father was Thomas le Boteler, 4th Lord Sudeley who d 21 Sep 1398

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 18 apr 2006 15:48:46

Dear Will ~

It appears that Henry (or Harry) Belknap, Esq., died 1488, and his
wife, Margaret Knollys, had a seventh child, Margaret, wife of John
Boteler, Esq., of Woodhall Watton, Hertfordshire, who died 18 August
1513. See the weblink below for more details:

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... 3&pg=PA363

Because Margaret (Belknap) Boteler predeceased her brother, Sir Edward
Belknap, she was not included among his heirs. I also assume Margaret
died without surviving issue. Margaret's death date and parentage
probably comes from a monumental inscription which Mr. Clutterbuck saw.
If so, it should be cited in his history of Hertfordshire.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Will ~

Henry (or Harry) Belknap, Esq., died 1488, and his wife, Margaret
Knollys, had six children in all:

1. Edward Belknap, Knt.
2. Alice, wife of William Shelley, Knt.
3. Anne, wife of Robert Wotton, Knt.
4. Elizabeth, wife of Philip Cooke (or Coke), Knt.
5. Mary, wife of Gerard Dannett.
6. Griselde, wife of John Caryll.

For evidence of the daughter Griselde, see Baker, Reports of Cases by
John Caryll 1 (Selden Soc. 115) (1999): xi-xv (biog. of John Caryll).

For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants who descend from Henry (or Harry) Belknap, Esq., and his
wife, Margaret Knollys:

Dorothy Beresford, Elizabeth Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Matthew Kempe,
Mary Johanna Somerset

For the connecting links between the individual immigrants and the
Belknap famly, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004), and
Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 4/16/06 10:34:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

"In the period, 1538-1544, Edward Woton, knight, Mary Danett and
Anthony
Coke, esquire, son and heir of John Coke, sued John Brugge and
Alice his
wife, late the wife of Edward Belknap, knight, in Chancery
regarding the
"manor of Weston-under-Weatherley, co. Warwick, late of the said
Sir Edward
Belknap, brother of the said Mary and uncle of the said Sir Edward
Woton
and
John Coke" [Reference: List of Early Chancery Proceedings, 8 (PRO,
London,
Lists and Indexes, No. LI): 252]."


Regarding this suit, I have this Belknap family now, as follows
Henry Belknap and Margaret Knollys, both died in 1488
Their children were
1) Elizabeth d 1517 married 1472 Sir Philip Cooke of Gidea Park,
Essex d 7
Dec 1503
2) Mary d 1568 married Gerard Danet, Esq d 1520
3) Anne married Robert Wotton of Bocton Malherbe b 1465
4) Edward married Alice Brown
5) Alice married William Shelley

There may be other children. Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 18 apr 2006 16:10:51

Dear Merilyn ~

As per you request, I've posted the connection from the Boteler family
to the Belknap family. All my sources are cited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), with updated
information.

SUDELEY-BOTELER-BELKNAP FAMILIES

1. JOAN DE SUDELEY, elder daughter. She married about 1354 (as his 2nd
wife) WILLIAM LE BOTELER, Knt., de jure 2nd Lord Boteler of Wem, of
Wem, Whixall, and Hinstock, Shropshire, and Almington and Tyrley,
Staffordshire, Knight of the Shire for Shropshire, son and heir of
William le Boteler, 1st Lord Boteler of Wem [see BLACKMERE 5], by his
1st wife, Beatrice. He was born 8 Sept. 1298. They had one son,
Thomas, Knt. William married (1st) Margaret de Arundel, daughter of
Richard Fitz Alan (or de Arundel), Knt., 8th Earl of Arundel, by Alice
(or Alasia), daughter of Tommaso I, Marquis of Saluzzo. He and
Margaret had one son, William, Knt. [3rd Lord Boteler of Wem]. He was
never summoned to Parliament. He served in Flanders in 1340 in the
retinue of Reginald de Cobham. In 1344 he obtained special immunity
from the king from bearing arms "in respect of his impotency." SIR
WILLIAM LE BOTELER died 22 Dec. 1361. His wife, Joan, died before 11
August 1367.

References:

Manning, Hist. & Antiqs. of Surrey 2 (1809): 626-628. Garbet, Hist.
of Wem (1818): 31-40. Tierney, Hist. & Antiqs. of the Castle & Town
of Arundel 1 (1834): chart following 192, citing Vincent A Discoverie
of Errours (1622): 34. Eyton, Antiqs. of Shropshire 8 (1859): 20-22;
9 (1859): 157-177. Hawley et al., Vis. of Essex 1552, 1558, 1570,
1612 & 1634 2 (H.S.P. 14) (1879): 563-565 (Misc. Essex Peds.) (Cooke
pedigree: "William le Boteler of Wemme. = Margaret Arundell.")
("William Butler Baron of Wemme. = Joane d. & heir of John
Sudley."). Arch. Cambrensis 5th Ser. 1 (1884): 219-221 (Fitzalan
pedigree). Genealogist n.s. 14 (1897): 103-104; n.s. 15 (1898): 27.
Benolte et al., Vis. of Surrey 1530, 1572 & 1613 (H.S.P. 43) (1899):
219-221 (Vincent pedigree: "Willm. Botteler 2 Baron of Wem. =
Margerett d. of Willm. Erle of Arundell"). Surrey Arch. Colls. 19
(1906): 27-32. C.P. 2 (1912): 232 (sub Boteler); 12(1) (1953):
417-418 (sub Sudeley). VCH Worcester 3 (1913): 14, 47. Trans.
Shropshire Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc. 4th Ser. 10 (1925-26): 168-169
(biog. of William le Boteler). VCH Warwick 4 (1947): 175 (Boteler
arms: Gules, a fesse checky argent and sable between six crosses formy
or); 5 (1949): 70. Twemlow, Manor of Tyrley (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 3rd
Ser. 1945-6) (1948): 38-43. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 82:
7-8 (identifies marriage citing Cl. 4 Ric. 2. m 28, correcting C.P.);
514: 3. Genealogists' Mag. 13 (1960): 173-174. Bodine, Anc. of
Dorothea Poyntz (1995): 74.

2. THOMAS LE BOTELER (or BUTLER), Knt., of Sudeley, Gloucestershire,
Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, younger son by his father's
2nd marriage, born at Tyrley, Staffordshire, and baptized at Drayton
(in Hayles), Staffordshire 1 Oct. 1358. He married on or before 18
July 1385 ALICE BEAUCHAMP, daughter of John de Beauchamp, Knt., of
Powick, Worcestershire, by his 1st wife, Joan, daughter of John de
Cherleton, Knt., 2nd Lord Cherleton of Powis [see POWICK 6 for her
ancestry]. They had four sons, John [de jure 5th Lord Sudeley],
William, Knt. [de jure 6th Lord Sudeley], Thomas, and Ralph, K.G. [7th
Lord Sudeley] and two daughters, Elizabeth and Joan. In 1367 he was
co-heir to his uncle, John de Sudeley, Knt., de jure 3rd Lord Sudeley,
by which he inherited Fairfield (in Belbroughton), Worcestershire. In
1370 he was co-heir to his great-grand uncle, Peter de Montfort, Knt.,
3rd Lord Montfort, by which he inherited a moiety of the castle and
manor of Beaudesert, with the town of Henley-in-Arden, Warwickshire,
and the manors of Wellesbourne Mountfort and Whitchurch, Warwickshire.
In 1379 he was heir to his aunt, Margery (de Sudeley) Massey, by which
he inherited the manors of Dassett (in Burton Dassett) and Griff (in
Chivers Coton), Warwickshire. In 1390 he made a pilgrimage to the Holy
Land where he ate, drank, and conversed with the "perfidious
Saracens" contrary to Papal prohibition, being then excommunicated by
Pope Boniface IX in 1391. On the payment of alms he was granted
absolution in March 1392. He was about to go to Ireland on service 8
August 1394, and was still there 13 Feb. 1395. He was exempted from
serving on assizes, etc., on 4 Feb. 1398. SIR THOMAS LE BOTELER, de
jure 4th Lord Sudeley, died 21 Sept. 1398. His widow, Alice, married
(2nd) JOHN DALLINGRIDGE, Knt. (died 1408), of Bodiam Castle, Sussex,
Sheriff of Gloucestershire, Knight of the Shire for Sussex, Keeper of
Braden Forest, Wiltshire, son of Edward Dallingridge, Knt., by his
wife, Elizabeth Wardieu. She died 5 Feb. 1442/3.

References:

Nash, Colls. for the Hist. of Worcestershire 1 (1781): 57, 59.
Dallaway & Cartwright, Hist. of the Western Div. of Sussex 2(2) (1830):
76-77. Beltz, Memorials of the Most Noble Order of the Garter
(1841): clx. Hawley et al., Vis. of Essex 1552, 1558, 1570, 1612 &
1634 2 (H.S.P. 14) (1879): 563-565 (Misc. Peds.) (Cooke pedigree:
"Sr Thomas Butler. = Alice d. of John Beauchamp of Powick.").
Trans. Bristol & Gloucs. Arch. Soc. 7 (1883): 304. Harvey et al., Vis.
of Bedfordshire 1566, 1582, 1634 & 1669 (H.S.P. 19) (1884): 162-163
(Bray pedigree: "Thomas Butler Baron of Sudley = Allice d. and heire
of John Beauchampe of Powick."). Genealogist n.s. 14 (1897):
103-104. Benolte et al., Vis. of Surrey 1530, 1572 & 1613 (H.S.P.
43) (1899): 219-221 (Vincent pedigree: "Sir Thom. Botteler Knt. =
Allice d. of Sir John Beauchamp of Powick Knt."). Surrey Arch.
Colls. 19 (1906): 27-32; 20 (1907): 1-89. VCH Surrey 3 (1911):
248. VCH Worcester 3 (1913): 14. Report on the MSS of Lord de
L'isle & Dudley 1 (Hist. MSS Comm. 77) (1925): 149 (seal of Alice,
widow of Sir John Dalyngregge: round, 1 1/4 inch, impaling, Boteler of
Sudley, quarterly two bendlets and a fess chequy between six crosses
patee fitchee, and Beauchamp of Powyk, a fess between six martlets.
Between the shield and border three lizards or crocodiles. SIGILLVM
DNE. ALICIE DE BOTELER DNE. DE SUYDLE). C.P. 9 (1936): 128-130 (sub
Montfort); 12(1) (1953): 417-419 (sub Sudeley). Cal. IPMs 12 (1938):
145-147. Berkshire Arch. Jour. 44 (1940): 123-127. Twemlow, Manor
of Tyrley (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 3rd Ser. 1945-6) (1948): 38-43. VCH
Warwick 4 (1947): 175; 5 (1949): 70, 194, 210. Lamborn, Armorial Glass
of the Oxford Diocese (1949): 96 (arms of Boteler of Wem: Gules a fesse
checky silver and sable between six crosses formy fitchy silver).
Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 82: 7-8, 514: 3. Cal. IPMs 15
(1970): 112-113, 186, 372. Fam. Hist. 10 (1977-79): 9-20.
Roskell et al., House of Commons 1386-1421 2 (1992): 458-459 (biog.
of Sir Thomas Butler), 742-744 (biog. of Sir John Dallingridge).
Baker, Reports of Cases by John Caryll 1 (Selden Soc. 115) (1999):
230-236.

3. JOAN BOTELER, married before 1412 HAMON (or HAMOND) BELKNAP (or
BEALKNAP), Esq., of Knelle (in Beckley), Sussex, Sentlynge (in St. Mary
Cray) and Ringwold (in Walmer), Kent, son and heir of Robert Belknap,
Knt., of Knelle (in Beckley), Sussex, Seyntlynge (in St. Mary Cray),
Kent, etc., Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, by Juliane, daughter of
John Darset, of Essex. He was born about 1390 (aged 24 in 1414). They
had four sons, John, William, Esq., Henry (or Harry), Esq., and Philip,
and two daughters, Elizabeth and Griselde (wife of John Hende, Esq.).
In 1425/6 he obtained a reversal of his father's attainder. HAMON
BELKNAP, Esq., died in 1428-9. His widow, Joan, died before 1473.

References:

Dallaway & Cartwright, Hist. of the Western Div. of Sussex 2(2) (1830):
76-77. Misc. Gen. & Heraldica 1st Ser. 2 (1876): 333-334. Hawley
et al., Vis. of Essex 1552, 1558, 1570, 1612 & 1634 2 (H.S.P. 14)
(1879): 563-565 (Misc. Peds.) (Cooke pedigree: "Sr Hamond Belknap
Knight Lord Treasurer of Normandy. = Jone d. and coheir of Sr Thomas
Butler."). Benolte et al., Vis. of Surrey 1530, 1572 & 1613 (H.S.P.
43) (1899): 219-221 (Vincent pedigree: "Joane [Botteler] d. &
coheire vx. Sir John Belknap Knt. Threaseror of Normandy."). Surrey
Arch. Colls. 19 (1906): 27-32. C.P. 5 (1926): 320-321 (sub
Ferrers); 12(1) (1953): 421, footnote n (sub Sudeley). C.C.R.
1422-1429 (1933): 441. C.C.R. 1429-1435 (1933): 269, 315. C.C.R.
1435-1441 (1937): 86. Chichele, Reg. of Henry Chichele 2 (Canterbury
& York Soc. 42) (1937): 640 (biog. of Juliana Belknap). VCH Sussex 9
(1937): 144-145 (Belknap arms: Azure, three eagles bendwise between
two cotises argent). Berkshire Arch. Jour. 44 (1940): 123-127. VCH
Essex 4 (1956): 243. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 82: 7. Ancient
Deeds-Series DD (List & Index Soc. 200) (1983): 314.

4. HENRY (or HARRY) BELKNAP, Esq., of Crofton, Kent, and Beccles,
Suffolk, 3rd son, born about 1424-34 (aged 50 and more in 1484). He
married before 1471 MARGARET KNOLLYS (or KNOLLES), daughter of Richard
Knollys, Knt., by Margaret, daughter of William d'Oyley, of
Hughenden, Buckinghamshire. They had one son, Edward, Knt., and six
daughters, Alice, wife of William Shelley, Knt., Anne, Elizabeth, Mary
(wife of Gerard Dannett), Griselde (wife of John Caryll), and Margaret
(wife of John Boteler, Esq.). In 1484 he was heir to his brother,
William Belknap, Esq., by which he inherited the manors of Knelle (in
Beckley), Sussex, Sentling (in St. Mary Cray), and Ringwold (in
Walmer), Kent, etc. HENRY BELKNAP, Esq., died 3 July 1488. He left a
will (P.C.C. 17 Milles), requesting burial in the Chapel of our Lady at
Beckley, Sussex. His wife, Margaret, survived him.

References:

Dallaway & Cartwright, Hist. of the Western Div. of Sussex 2(2) (1830):
76-77. Notes & Queries (1853): 363-364. Misc. Gen. & Heraldica
1st Ser. 2 (1876): 333-334. Hawley et al., Vis. of Essex 1552, 1558,
1570, 1612 & 1634 2 (H.S.P. 14) (1879): 563-565 (Misc. Essex Peds.)
(Cooke pedigree: "Henry Belknap. = Margaret d. of Ric...."). Cal.
IPMs Henry VII 1 (1898): 126, 170, 182. Green, Feet of Fines for
Somerset 4 (Somerset Rec. Soc. 22) (1906): 144-145. Berkshire Arch.
Jour. 44 (1940): 123-127. VCH Warwick 5 (1949): 70. VCH Essex 4
(1956): 243. VCH Sussex 9 (1973): 144. Paget, Lineage & Anc. of
Prince Charles 2 (1977): 246, 398-399. Ancient Deeds-Series E
(List & Index Soc. 181) (1981): 15. Ancient Deeds-Series DD (List &
Index Soc. 200) (1983): 251. Baker, Reports of Cases by John Caryll 1
(Selden Soc. 115) (1999): xi-xv (biog. of John Caryll).

"Merilyn Pedrick" wrote:
< Thankyou for this information Doug. I didn't have his wife's name or
their
< death dates, or their children other than Alice. I do have a note
next to
< Henry Belknap's name saying "Doug Richardson has him descending from
the
< Botelers of Sudeley, Glos." Would it be possible for you to post
this
< descent please?
< Best wishes
< Merilyn Pedrick

Allen John Mallory

Re: Breaking the line Baldwin Freville b 1350 --> John 1st L

Legg inn av Allen John Mallory » 18 apr 2006 21:28:25

Mr. Richardson, would you happen to know if Benjamin Harrington (married
to Elizabeth White, daughter of William White) of Providence, RI was
also an immigrant descendant of Baldwin Freville and Elizabeth de Montfort?



Allen J. Mallory
Danbury, Connecticut
amallory7@comcast.net



Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Will ~

You appear to have confused two different Baldwin de Freville's. The
Baldwin de Freville who married Elizabeth de Montfort was the son and
heir of Alexander de Freville, died 1328, of Tamworth, Staffordshire,
by his wife, Joan, daughter of Ralph de Cromwell. This Baldwin de
Freville was born about 1292 or 1298, he being aged 30 or 36 at his
father's death in 1328. He died overseas 3 October 1343.

Elizabeth de Montfort's parents were John de Montfort, 1st Lord
Montfort, of Beaudesert, Warwickshire, and his wife, Alice, daughter of
William de la Plaunche, lord of la Plaunche [see Complete Peerage, 9
(1936): 128 (sub Montfort); Genealogist n.s. 14 (1897): 104]. John and
Alice were married shortly before 28 March 1287, when King Edward I, in
an unpublished letter, ordered his lieutenant in England to deal
favorably with John de Montfort who had married a cousin of the Queen
(see Public Record Office, S.C. 1/45/46; citation courtesy of J.C.
Parsons). Alice de la Plaunche, widow of John de Montfort, was living
as late as Easter Term 1309, when William Morin of Kineton,
Warwickshire was attached to answer her "concerning a plea why with
force and arms he entered the castle of the same Alice at Beaudesert
and took and carried away her goods and chattels found there to the
value of one hundred shillings" [see M.S. Arnold Select Cases of
Trespass from the King's Court 1307-1399 1 (Selden Soc. 100) (1985):
126-127]. On the basis of similarity of arms, Mr. Parsons has
speculated that the de la Plaunche family were a cadet branch of the
Fiennes family. This appears to be a reasonable assumption, but I've
been unable to confirm the connection.

For interest's sake, I've listed below the 17th Century New World
immigrants who descend from Sir Baldwin de Freville, died 1343, and his
wife, Elizabeth de Montfort:

Dannett Abney, Nathaniel Browne, Charles Calvert, Grace Chetwode,
Jeremy Clarke, Henry Corbin, Katherine Hamby, Henry, Jane & Nicholas
Lowe, Thomas Owsley, Mary Johanna Somerset, Olive Welby.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Recently while forging new links between various medieval families in my
database I came across an apparent error at stirnet.

http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/briti ... htm#linklo

Here we see John de Montfort of Beaudesert who d bef 11 May 1296
with, among others, a daughter Elizabeth Montfort who married
Sir Baldwin de Freville of Tamworth b c 1318


Since Elizabeth's father died bef 11 May 1296, then Elizabeth had to be born
by 1297 at the latest.
Did Baldwin b c 1318 really marry a woman at least 21 years older than
himself?

Will Johnson


Gjest

Re: Re. Edward Belknap living in 1498

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 apr 2006 02:18:02

In a message dated 4/18/06 3:59:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< 2. THOMAS LE BOTELER (or BUTLER), Knt., of Sudeley, Gloucestershire,
Knight of the Shire for Gloucestershire, younger son by his father's
2nd marriage, born at Tyrley, Staffordshire, and baptized at Drayton
(in Hayles), Staffordshire 1 Oct. 1358. He married on or before 18
July 1385 ALICE BEAUCHAMP, daughter of John de Beauchamp, Knt., of
Powick, Worcestershire, by his 1st wife, Joan, daughter of John de
Cherleton, Knt., 2nd Lord Cherleton of Powis [see POWICK 6 for her
ancestry]. >>

What is the source that tells you her name was Alice ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Breaking the line Baldwin Freville b 1350 --> John 1st L

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 apr 2006 17:15:38

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Recently while forging new links between various medieval families in my
database I came across an apparent error at stirnet.

http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/briti ... htm#linklo


There's apparently a further error here, in that the Baldwin who heads
the pedigree was married twice, and the Tamworth family were descended
from Alexander, second son of the first marriage, the eldest son,
Baldwin the younger, having died without issue; the marriage to Lucy de
Scalers was the elder Baldwin's second, from which the Little Shelford
family descended via their son Richard.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Alexander, Bishop of Moray

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 apr 2006 20:08:02

On Leo's great website here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 7&tree=LEO

we see Alexander, Bishop of Moray with no dates

Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan;
Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

says that this Alexander died in 1534

As to his birth, Leo shows that his parents were
Alexander, Duke of /Albany/ b abt 1454 killed in 1485
and
Catherine /Sinclair/ no dates on her

Now Leo is also showing by way of narrowing this further, that Alexander,
Duke of Albany dismissed his wife Catherine in 1478. In fact he rapidly made a
contract for marriage with Anne de la Tour dated 16 Jan 1479

Allowing Alexander Duke of Albany to be at least 17 when he became a father,
we get a birthrange for Alexander, Bishop of Moray of 1471/8. Perhaps someone
knows something that can narrow this even more?

For Alexander's seniors wife Catherine Sinclair, Leo is showing that her
mother, Elizabeth Douglas d abt 1451
John Ravilous on 10/14/05 to this list stated that Elizabeth and Alexander
married in 1432 citing
"Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "SEVEN SCOTTISH COUNTESSES: A MISCELLANY, I.
Marjory Sutherland, Countess of Caithness and Orkney," The
Genealogist, Spring 1999 (Volume 13, No. 1), pp. 84-91, part of a
series on 'the Seven Scottish Countesses', identifies Marjory
Sutherland as the daughter of Alexander by his mistress Catherine
Chalmers, per telephone conference 28 October 2004, notes, library
of John P. Ravilious."


This allows us to specify that Catherine Sinclair was born between 1432 and
1451.

Catherine was at least 3 years older than her husband Alexander. I doubt she
was as much as 22 years older, but perhaps someone can identify a more narrow
birthrange for her.

Thanks.
Will Johnson

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Breaking the line Baldwin Freville b 1350 --> John 1st L

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 20 apr 2006 21:44:41

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Recently while forging new links between various medieval families in my
database I came across an apparent error at stirnet.

http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/briti ... htm#linklo


There's apparently a further error here, in that the Baldwin who heads
the pedigree was married twice, and the Tamworth family were descended
from Alexander, second son of the first marriage, the eldest son,
Baldwin the younger, having died without issue; the marriage to Lucy de
Scalers was the elder Baldwin's second, from which the Little Shelford
family descended via their son Richard.

MA-R

What I have, admittedly somewhat dated is:

"The Frevilles of Tamworth Castle, Staffordshire", Genealogists'
Magazine, June 1984: 185 et seq. Patrick Montague-Smith.

1. Sir Baldwin d. 1387.
2. Sir Baldwin, b.1317;d. 1375.
3. Ida Clinton.
4. Sir Baldwin, b. 1297; d. 1343.
5. Elizabeth Montfort.
6. 1st. Lord Clinton.
8. Sir Alexander, d. 1328.
9. Joan Cromwell, d. 1339.
16. Sir Baldwin, d. ca. 1257.
17. Maud Gifford of Boyton, Wilts.
32. Sir Baldwin of Wellingham, Norfolk.

Is there evidence that this is incorrect?

Doug

Gjest

Re: Breaking the line Baldwin Freville b 1350 --> John 1st L

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 apr 2006 22:27:56

alden@mindspring.com schrieb:

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Recently while forging new links between various medieval families in my
database I came across an apparent error at stirnet.

http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/briti ... htm#linklo


There's apparently a further error here, in that the Baldwin who heads
the pedigree was married twice, and the Tamworth family were descended
from Alexander, second son of the first marriage, the eldest son,
Baldwin the younger, having died without issue; the marriage to Lucy de
Scalers was the elder Baldwin's second, from which the Little Shelford
family descended via their son Richard.

MA-R

What I have, admittedly somewhat dated is:

"The Frevilles of Tamworth Castle, Staffordshire", Genealogists'
Magazine, June 1984: 185 et seq. Patrick Montague-Smith.

1. Sir Baldwin d. 1387.
2. Sir Baldwin, b.1317;d. 1375.
3. Ida Clinton.
4. Sir Baldwin, b. 1297; d. 1343.
5. Elizabeth Montfort.
6. 1st. Lord Clinton.
8. Sir Alexander, d. 1328.
9. Joan Cromwell, d. 1339.
16. Sir Baldwin, d. ca. 1257.
17. Maud Gifford of Boyton, Wilts.
32. Sir Baldwin of Wellingham, Norfolk.

Is there evidence that this is incorrect?

Doug,

Others on the group are more expert on this family than I am, but from
a quick glance, that looks right to me.

Regards

MA-R

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Breaking the line Baldwin Freville b 1350 --> John 1st L

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 apr 2006 23:32:18

In message of 20 Apr, "alden@mindspring.com" <alden@mindspring.com> wrote:

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Recently while forging new links between various medieval
families in my database I came across an apparent error at
stirnet.

http://www.stirnet.com/html/genie/briti ... XX.htm#lin
klo


There's apparently a further error here, in that the Baldwin who heads
the pedigree was married twice, and the Tamworth family were descended
from Alexander, second son of the first marriage, the eldest son,
Baldwin the younger, having died without issue; the marriage to
Lucy de Scalers was the elder Baldwin's second, from which the
Little Shelford family descended via their son Richard.

MA-R

What I have, admittedly somewhat dated is:

"The Frevilles of Tamworth Castle, Staffordshire", Genealogists'
Magazine, June 1984: 185 et seq. Patrick Montague-Smith.

1. Sir Baldwin d. 1387.
2. Sir Baldwin, b.1317;d. 1375.
3. Ida Clinton.
4. Sir Baldwin, b. 1297; d. 1343.
5. Elizabeth Montfort.
6. 1st. Lord Clinton.
8. Sir Alexander, d. 1328.
9. Joan Cromwell, d. 1339.
16. Sir Baldwin, d. ca. 1257.
17. Maud Gifford of Boyton, Wilts.
32. Sir Baldwin of Wellingham, Norfolk.

Is there evidence that this is incorrect?

It may be that Montague-Smith provided the evidence that Sanders was
wrong but in "English Baronies" pub 1963, p. 87, Sanders says that Lady
Maud de Ebroicis was followed by her son Baldwin de Frevill who d. 1289
who was followed by his brother and heir Alexander who d. 1328. In the
notes he said that naud had mj. William de Ebroicis who d. 1265. I
have taken this to mean that William de Ebroicis was the father of
Baldwin and Alexander but it may be that William was a second, or first,
husband of Maud and that Baldwin and Alexander had a Freville for
father. Or, of course, it may be that Sanders had got it wrong.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

John Brandon

Re: The "naughty lyf" of Constance (---) (Percy) (Pershay) (

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 apr 2006 01:05:56

Yuck.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: The "naughty lyf" of Constance (---) (Percy) (Pershay) (

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 21 apr 2006 01:22:58

In article <375.2ad234b.31797835@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/20/06 12:52:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

This Constance apparently married: 1) Sir Harry Percy; 2) John
Pershay; 3) Sir Philip FitzWarin; 4) Sir Harry de la Ryver. What was
her family name?


http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... CAC&vq=nau
ghty+lyf&dq=giffard+olney&lpg=RA1-PA277&pg=RA1-PA276


Thank you John for a very disturbing picture. Let me quote page 283 of this
work
"The said eldest John Beaushyn, sone to the said William, toke to wyf Johan,
called John Criklades doughtir, begoten on one [blank], the seid John
Criklade
beyng her gossippe. Also the seid John Criklade had issue a childe by the
seid Johan, his mysse begoten doughtir, longe tyme before she was wedded to
the
seid John Beaushyn."


How pleasant. The old leacher impregnates his god-daughter, and then,
(presumably at least 14 years later,) impregnates the daughter they had
together.

Well, 'gossip' meant, in the 17th century (to paraphrase the first
definition in the OED), one with whom one had contracted affinity
through sponsorship at baptism", which could as well mean "parent of
one's godchild' as 'godparent' or 'godchild'. So Johane was not
necessarily John Criklade's goddaughter.

I wouldn't hit on my goddaughter (she being 7); and I wouldn't hit on my
goddaughter's mother--but they're entirely different ideas.

Mind you, I'm not saying that John Criklade was a stand-up guy.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Gjest

Re: Frances Brandon was Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her ma

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2006 01:54:28

In a message dated 4/20/06 3:22:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< True. For instance, Frances Grey, Dowager Duchess of Suffolk married
her master-of-the-horse, Adrian Stokes, after her husband the Duke
died, yet she always retained her ducal style (e.g. PROCAT C 1/1469/75:
"Adrian Stokes, esquire, and Frances, Duchess of Suffolk, his wife"). >>

Interesting you bring up Frances Brandon.
I just picked up a copy of Alison Weir's "The Children of Henry VIII" today
for seventy-five cents (about 50 pence for you British types) and she is not
very sympathetic to Frances : "Frances Brandon, on the other hand, was forceful,
determine to have her own way, and greedy for power and riches. She ruled
her husband and daughters tyrannically and, in the case of the latter, often
cruelly, and was utterly insensitive to the feelings of others. Physically, she
bore a marked resemblance to Henry VIII, and in later life she few corpulent
as he did."

All-in-all, a picture of an unpleasant person.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Frances Brandon was Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her ma

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2006 01:59:23

In a message dated 4/20/06 3:54:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:

<< Physically, she
bore a marked resemblance to Henry VIII, and in later life she few corpulent
as he did." >>

Strike "few" and replace with "grew"

Will Johnson

Tony Hoskins

Re: Philip Champernoun of Modbury

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 21 apr 2006 02:10:00

I descend from Joan and Katherine's sister Frances (Champeroun)
Budockshed [a name to conjure with!] and, from my scanty notes here in
my office, I have only record of one Joan and Katherine each. Will try
to locate photocopies of relevant pages from Vivian's _Vis. Dev._ in my
home files._

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Hoskins

Re: Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her maiden name

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 21 apr 2006 02:39:20

In that period when a titled widow remarried a mere Mr. I have never
observed a widow use the new husband's surname.

Tony

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> 04/20/06 04:16PM
NEHGR, 47:396-97: DAME KATHERINE BARNARDISTON wife of William Towse

Sergeant at the Law, 25 February 8th of Charles, proved 19 March 1632,
confirmed by sentence 2 March 1633. At time of marriage of the said
Dame Katherine with the said William Towse she had assigned certain
goods &c. unto Richard Deane, now citizen and alderman of London --

Gjest

Re: The "naughty lyf" of Constance (---) (Percy) (Pershay) (

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2006 02:50:25

In a message dated 4/20/06 12:52:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< This Constance apparently married: 1) Sir Harry Percy; 2) John
Pershay; 3) Sir Philip FitzWarin; 4) Sir Harry de la Ryver. What was
her family name?


http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... =RA1-PA276 >>


Thank you John for a very disturbing picture. Let me quote page 283 of this
work
"The said eldest John Beaushyn, sone to the said William, toke to wyf Johan,
called John Criklades doughtir, begoten on one [blank], the seid John Criklade
beyng her gossippe. Also the seid John Criklade had issue a childe by the
seid Johan, his mysse begoten doughtir, longe tyme before she was wedded to the
seid John Beaushyn."


How pleasant. The old leacher impregnates his god-daughter, and then,
(presumably at least 14 years later,) impregnates the daughter they had together.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Philip Champernoun of Modbury

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2006 07:25:08

Thank you for your very useful reply.
Alison Weir in "The Children of Henry VIII" states that the governess of
Elizabeth from the time Elizabeth was 4 until she was about 14 years old was
Katherine Champernowne who had married John Ashley

Most of the time she is simply called Mrs Ashley and she is called this all
the way up to at least 1557, excluding her as being a person who possibly snuck
off a few extra marriages in the mix. Alison again states without adding
specifics that either Catherine or her husband was a cousin of either Anne Boleyn
or of Elizabeth. (The way she puts the sentence it's meaning is ambiguous.)

Alison further states that this Catherine had a sister Joan who was the wife
of Anthony Denny.

Alison Weir is great for colorful historic fiction mixed with facts, but she
is absolutely horrible for a well-footnoted source since she has none. Only a
mass (and I do mean mass) of secondary citations all lumped in the back. So
it's almost impossible to follow up on these things.

Still I think it was a good investment of seventy five cents.

Will

John Brandon

Re: The "naughty lyf" of Constance (---) (Percy) (Pershay) (

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 apr 2006 13:05:32

Mind you, I'm not saying that John Criklade was a stand-up guy.

Yep, it seems clear he committed incest with his own daughter.

Gjest

Re: Frances Brandon was Widow Anne Baynton Batt signs her ma

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2006 19:52:35

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 4/20/06 3:22:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

True. For instance, Frances Grey, Dowager Duchess of Suffolk married
her master-of-the-horse, Adrian Stokes, after her husband the Duke
died, yet she always retained her ducal style (e.g. PROCAT C 1/1469/75:
"Adrian Stokes, esquire, and Frances, Duchess of Suffolk, his wife").

Interesting you bring up Frances Brandon.
I just picked up a copy of Alison Weir's "The Children of Henry VIII" today
for seventy-five cents (about 50 pence for you British types) and she is not
very sympathetic to Frances : "Frances Brandon, on the other hand, was forceful,
determine to have her own way, and greedy for power and riches. She ruled
her husband and daughters tyrannically and, in the case of the latter, often
cruelly, and was utterly insensitive to the feelings of others. Physically, she
bore a marked resemblance to Henry VIII, and in later life she few corpulent
as he did."

All-in-all, a picture of an unpleasant person.

Quite possibly, but - unlike many of those around her - she survived,
her own daughter's fatal tangling with the Crown notwithstanding.

MA-R

Douglas Richardson

Ahnentafel for Sir Baldwin de Freville, of Tamworth, Staffor

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 apr 2006 20:22:42

Dear Newsgroup ~

I've prepared an ahnentafel for Sir Baldwin de Freville, of Tamworth,
Staffordshire, died 1387.

1. Sir Baldwin de Freville, b. c. 1351, died 1387, married Joyce
Botetourt.
2. Sir Baldwin de Freville, born 1317, died 1375.
3. Ida de Clinton, died before 1368.
4. Sir Baldwin de Freville, born about 1292 (or 1298), died 1343.
5. Elizabeth de Montfort.
6. Sir John de Clinton, 2nd Lord Clinton, born in or before 1300, died
1334.
7. Margery Corbet, living 1343.
8. Sir Alexander de Freville, born about 1359, died 1328.
9. Joan de Cromwell, d. 1339.
10. John de Montfort, 1st Lord Montfort.
11. Alice de la Plaunche, living Easter term 1309 (kinswoman of Queen
Eleanor of Castile, wife of King Edward I of England).
12. John de Clinton, 1st Lord Clinton, died 1311.
13. Ida de Oddingseles, died before 1328.
16. Baldwin de Freville, died 1257.
17. Maud Gifford, died 1297. She married (2nd) William d'Evreux.
18. Ralph de Cromwell, of Cromwell, Nottinghamshire, died 1289.
19. Mazera Marmion, died before 1271.
22. William de la Plaunche, seigneur of la Plaunche.
26. Sir William de Oddingseles, Knt., of Solihull, Warwickshire, died
1295.
27. Ela Fitz Walter, living 1302/3 (descendant of King Henry II of
England)
32. Roger de Freville, of Freville's (in Wellingham), Norfolk, living
temp. John.
34. Hugh Giffard, of Boyton, Wiltshire.
35. Sibyl de Cormeilles.
38. Philip Marmion, of Scrivelsby, Lincolnshire, died 1291.
39. Joan de Kilpeck.
76. Robert Marmion, of Tamworth, Staffordshire, died c. 1241-3.
77. Juliane de Vassy.
78. Hugh de Kilpeck, of Pulverbatch, Shropshire.

For details of Sir Baldwin de Freville's descent from King Henry II of
England, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

Gjest

Re: Ahnentafel for Sir Baldwin de Freville, of Tamworth, Sta

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2006 21:14:34

Douglas Richardson schrieb:

Dear Newsgroup ~

I've prepared an ahnentafel for Sir Baldwin de Freville, of Tamworth,
Staffordshire, died 1387.

Thanks, Douglas; that's interesting and useful.
1. Sir Baldwin de Freville, b. c. 1351, died 1387, married Joyce
Botetourt.
2. Sir Baldwin de Freville, born 1317, died 1375.
3. Ida de Clinton, died before 1368.
4. Sir Baldwin de Freville, born about 1292 (or 1298), died 1343.
5. Elizabeth de Montfort.
6. Sir John de Clinton, 2nd Lord Clinton, born in or before 1300, died
1334.
7. Margery Corbet, living 1343.
8. Sir Alexander de Freville, born about 1359, died 1328.
9. Joan de Cromwell, d. 1339.
10. John de Montfort, 1st Lord Montfort.
11. Alice de la Plaunche, living Easter term 1309 (kinswoman of Queen
Eleanor of Castile, wife of King Edward I of England).
12. John de Clinton, 1st Lord Clinton, died 1311.
13. Ida de Oddingseles, died before 1328.
16. Baldwin de Freville, died 1257.
17. Maud Gifford, died 1297. She married (2nd) William d'Evreux.

I can't see in the Archives that this has been dealt with before: how
does Maud Gifford's alleged subsequent marriage and then death in 1297
(I have elsewhere seen it stated as 1289) sit with Baldwin's marriage
to Lucy de Scalers, and their son issue who inherited the Scalers lands
(Little Shelford etc)? Baldwin died circa 1257.

According to the pedigree usually stated, Maud Gifford was his first
wife, and Lucy Scalers his second. By his first marriage, he had
Baldwin (IPM 1289) who was apparently his father's eldest son, as he
inherited the ancient Freville estate of Wellingham, and Alexander, his
brother's heir in 1289 who survived until 1328 (IPM). By his second
marriage, he had Richard, who died in 1299 (VCH Cambs, Little
Shelford).

Michael

Gjest

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2006 21:39:06

In a message dated 4/21/06 11:26:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
montereng1@hotmail.com writes:

<< These legends are very clear that they are dealing with jesus Christ as
he stated that he is such. >>

This is utterly false. I'm sorry Ray but you can't pander these ridiculous
claims to those of us who live day-in-and-out with facts. No where in any
"ancient Indian legend" or anywhere else are the words "Jesus Christ". Any
"anthropology" professor who says so, is simply a liar or insane.
You however are free to quote at-length from this book that allegedly says
that and then the rest of us can enjoy a good laugh.

Will Johnson

norenxaq

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av norenxaq » 21 apr 2006 21:49:33

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/21/06 11:26:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
montereng1@hotmail.com writes:

These legends are very clear that they are dealing with jesus Christ as
he stated that he is such.

This is utterly false. I'm sorry Ray but you can't pander these ridiculous
claims to those of us who live day-in-and-out with facts. No where in any
"ancient Indian legend" or anywhere else are the words "Jesus Christ". Any
"anthropology" professor who says so, is simply a liar or insane.
You however are free to quote at-length from this book that allegedly says
that and then the rest of us can enjoy a good laugh.

Will Johnson



my suspicion is that these claims are from the Book of Mormon or some

other Mormon inspired work

Gjest

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 apr 2006 21:58:42

In a message dated 4/21/06 11:49:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

<< my suspicion is that these claims are from the Book of Mormon or some
other Mormon inspired work >>


There really was a book that Ray states
see http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml
Where the author says it is "...one non-LDS writer became convinced that
Christ was once in the Americas and compiled these accounts in a book, He Walked
the Americas, Amherst, Wisconsin: Amherst Press, 1963. A few excerpts from the
book are available on the Web at http://www.geocities.com/willow1d/amer.html.
L. Taylor Hansen apparently had Masters Degrees in Archaeology, Anthropology
and Geology from Stanford University and spent significant time with Native
Americans to better understand their traditions and legends."


However, the legends themselves do not claim that the person they are
referring to, or said-to-be referring to was "Jesus Christ". In fact, since many if
not all of these legends were writen down by white men, and sometimes Catholic
missionaries, whatever they say is automatically suspect.

Will Johnson

norenxaq

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av norenxaq » 21 apr 2006 22:35:49

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/21/06 11:49:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

my suspicion is that these claims are from the Book of Mormon or some
other Mormon inspired work


There really was a book that Ray states
see http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml
Where the author says it is "...one non-LDS writer became convinced that
Christ was once in the Americas and compiled these accounts in a book, He Walked
the Americas, Amherst, Wisconsin: Amherst Press, 1963. A few excerpts from the
book are available on the Web at http://www.geocities.com/willow1d/amer.html.
L. Taylor Hansen apparently had Masters Degrees in Archaeology, Anthropology
and Geology from Stanford University and spent significant time with Native
Americans to better understand their traditions and legends."


However, the legends themselves do not claim that the person they are
referring to, or said-to-be referring to was "Jesus Christ".



indeed. I would be EXTREMELY surprised if they did

In fact, since many if
not all of these legends were writen down by white men, and sometimes Catholic
missionaries, whatever they say is automatically suspect.




especially considering their need for universality and viewing the
world through their own bias without really trying to be objective

Will Johnson



Douglas Richardson

Re: Ahnentafel for Sir Baldwin de Freville, of Tamworth, Sta

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 21 apr 2006 23:09:24

Dear Michael ~

You have the order of Baldwin de Freville's marriages reversed. He
married (1st) after 10 May 1231 Lucy de Scalers, daughter and heiress
of Richard de Scalers, by whom he had a son and heir, Richard. Lucy
was living in 1245. He married (2nd) shortly after 10 July 1253 Maud
Giffard, daughter of Hugh Giffard, of Boyton, Wiltshire, by whom he had
sons, Baldwin, Knt., and Alexander, Knt. Baldwin de Freville died
shortly before 8 Feb. 1257. His widow, Maud, married William d'Evreux,
Knt., of Holme Lacy, Herefordshire, by whom she had further issue.
William d'Evreux was slain at the Battle of Evesham 4 August 1265.
Lady Maud d'Evreux acquired a one sixth-interest in the barony of
Tarrington, Herefordshire from her Cormeilles cousin, Thomas de Solers,
who died in 1272. In 1286 Godfrey Giffard, Bishop of Worcester,
granted Maud d'Evreux and Sibyl, her daughter, an acre of land in the
field of Wyston, which after their deaths should go to the prioress and
nuns of Wyston. Maud died 20 August 1297.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry. net

mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
I can't see in the Archives that this has been dealt with before: how
does Maud Gifford's alleged subsequent marriage and then death in 1297
(I have elsewhere seen it stated as 1289) sit with Baldwin's marriage
to Lucy de Scalers, and their son issue who inherited the Scalers lands
(Little Shelford etc)? Baldwin died circa 1257.

According to the pedigree usually stated, Maud Gifford was his first
wife, and Lucy Scalers his second. By his first marriage, he had
Baldwin (IPM 1289) who was apparently his father's eldest son, as he
inherited the ancient Freville estate of Wellingham, and Alexander, his
brother's heir in 1289 who survived until 1328 (IPM). By his second
marriage, he had Richard, who died in 1299 (VCH Cambs, Little
Shelford).

Michael

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Burial of Native American woman in 1620s England?

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 22 apr 2006 00:02:13

In article <28c.906451e.317aba43@aol.com>, Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Given the date , doubtless She accompanied "Princess"
Pocahontas, " King" Powhatan`s daughter to the Court of Saint James (The
Palace, James I being no saint.) would not some such have been demanded
by the etiquette of the time ?

I think you misunderstood me, though I wasn't very clear in my last
post. I think it more likely that the girl in John's reference was an
English colonist, repatriated to London following the Indian risings in
1622, than that she was native American.

Now, there were various handfuls of American natives taken back to
England early on. The first may have gone as curiosities, but never
really as diplomats. [Was Pocahontas received as a dignitary, or an
exhibit?] I expect most of them were more-or-less adopted into
servitude.

I have not personally read up on the scholarly literature about the
dispersal into servitude of some of the original native people of the
Chespeake, but I did read recently on it in Ed Ball's _Slaves in the
Family_ and perhaps one or two similar books I can't now recall.

Ball, I remember, recounts how at various times, dating back to the
earliest settlements, specific Native groups would be deported,
essentially into servitude, most usually to the West Indies. After the
early seventeenth century the English realized this was not profitable
on any large scale (the Native American population was not easily
exploited as slave labor), but nevertheless it was resorted to at times
to remove resistant Native groups (or individuals) from areas of
expanding plantation activity.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: Burial of Native American woman in 1620s England?

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 apr 2006 01:00:03

Dear Nate,
Given the date , doubtless She accompanied "Princess"
Pocahontas, " King" Powhatan`s daughter to the Court of Saint James (The Palace.
James I being no saint.) would not some such have been demanded by the
etiquette of the time ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA

Gjest

Re: Father of John, Stephen, Christopher and Bartholomew Hal

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 apr 2006 01:09:02

In a message dated 4/21/06 2:37:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< There was also a sister, Mildred, who married (licence dated 1547)
Thomas Docwra, MP, of Putteridge, Herts (1518-1602), named in John
Hales's will, and another son, also John - the eldest son, according to
the one source which names him - who died without issue, possibly in
infancy. >>

Is this then the Thomas, son of John Docwra and Ann St George ?
and is Mildren then the mother of Ralph Docwra d 1628 ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

RAY Montgomery

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av RAY Montgomery » 22 apr 2006 02:08:01

To all,
I strongly suggest that each of you read the book he walked the america's.
You will also find in that book that the man whom the indians claimed as the
great white God was known as jesus. I am just stating facts as it is
recorded in the book.
this book has nothing to do with the book of morman to my knowledge.
Ray






From: norenxaq <norenxaq@san.rr.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:35:32 -0700

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/21/06 11:49:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

my suspicion is that these claims are from the Book of Mormon or some
other Mormon inspired work


There really was a book that Ray states
see http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml
Where the author says it is "...one non-LDS writer became convinced that
Christ was once in the Americas and compiled these accounts in a book, He
Walked the Americas, Amherst, Wisconsin: Amherst Press, 1963. A few
excerpts from the book are available on the Web at
http://www.geocities.com/willow1d/amer.html. L. Taylor Hansen apparently
had Masters Degrees in Archaeology, Anthropology and Geology from Stanford
University and spent significant time with Native Americans to better
understand their traditions and legends."


However, the legends themselves do not claim that the person they are
referring to, or said-to-be referring to was "Jesus Christ".



indeed. I would be EXTREMELY surprised if they did

In fact, since many if not all of these legends were writen down by white
men, and sometimes Catholic missionaries, whatever they say is
automatically suspect.




especially considering their need for universality and viewing the world
through their own bias without really trying to be objective

Will Johnson




Gjest

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 apr 2006 02:24:01

In a message dated 4/21/06 5:08:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
montereng1@hotmail.com writes:

<< You will also find in that book that the man whom the indians claimed as
the
great white God was known as jesus. >>

This is utterly false. The great white God was known as Quetzacotle
(spelling?)
Please quote the book exactly Ray, you'd not doing a good job at paraphrasing
it.
Will Johnson

norenxaq

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av norenxaq » 22 apr 2006 03:16:01

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 4/21/06 5:08:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
montereng1@hotmail.com writes:

You will also find in that book that the man whom the indians claimed as
the
great white God was known as jesus.

This is utterly false. The great white God was known as Quetzacotle
(spelling?)


Quetzalcoatl. seeing him refered to here raises a serious problem as he

was mesoamerican. I have yet to see any real indication that his worship
reached the areas mentioned in the online extract



Gjest

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 apr 2006 03:33:02

In a message dated 4/21/06 6:15:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

<< Quetzalcoatl. seeing him refered to here raises a serious problem as he
was mesoamerican. I have yet to see any real indication that his worship
reached the areas mentioned in the online extract >>

The poster stated indians of north and south america and south pacific
islands, or something like that. And Quetzalcoatl was definitely called the "Great
White God" at least by some people.

Gjest

Re: Burial of Native American woman in 1620s England?

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 apr 2006 04:24:02

Dear Nate,
Pocahontas was baptized Rebecca in 1614 prior to marrying
John Rolfe. In 1616 Sir Thomas Dale on a fund raising tour for the Virginia
company in England was accompanied by Rolfe, Pocahontas, their young son Thomas and
several other Algonquin Indians so in all probability the answer to your
question could have gone either way or maybe both, They were both dignitaries and
curiousities.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Burial of Native American woman in 1620s England?

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 apr 2006 05:22:17

Most of the Native people who went to Europe during that time died
there rather quickly (as did Pocahontas) because of their lack of
immunity to Eurasian diseases. It is probable that some individuals
survived. A friend of mine is Jack Forbes, Professor Emeritus of
history from University of California, Davis. One of his projects was
to live in Europe for awhile (in Amsterdam, if I recall correctly) to
study modern accounts of people who claim to be descended from such
individuals. Such people had been in contact with him. I have not seen
him for some years and do not know if the project ever reached
fruition. I also know of an individual who was raised in Panama, whose
grandfather had been a high-ranking politician in Mexico.His
mixed-blood family was in Mexico during the colonial period, returned
to Spain for some generations, then back to Mexico. That is not
England, of course, with its anti-miscegenation policies, but at least
it was Europe. I'll try to find out what happened to Forbes' project.
Best, Bronwen

Gjest

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 apr 2006 05:35:11

I know I'm going to regret jumping into this idiocy, but virtually
every account about a "white god" or about Native people identifying
Europeans, however briefly, as "gods" is always based on the accounts
of the Europeans themselves. Among Native people there are endless
accounts about Europeans (and at least one African with a Spanish
expedition) making that assumption and acting on it. No one can say, of
course, that there was never a single such misidentification on the
part of the Native people, but the European explorers were certainly
only godlike in their own minds. One famous such episode is that of
Columbus himself believing that he was being "crowned" by the Taino
people who were only welcoming him in the traditional way and offering
him refreshments. The example of Moctezuma and Cortez involves
information about the advancement of the Spanish army reaching
Moctezuma quite a bit in advance of the army itself and his concern
that it might be in fulfillment of an omen or a plot against him. I
could go on but I won't. Best, Bronwen

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 22 apr 2006 05:46:05

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'


| In a message dated 4/21/06 5:08:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
| montereng1@hotmail.com writes:
|
| << You will also find in that book that the man whom the indians claimed as
| the
| great white God was known as jesus. >>
|
| This is utterly false. The great white God was known as Quetzacotle
| (spelling?)


Quetzalcoatl


| Please quote the book exactly Ray, you'd not doing a good job at paraphrasing
| it.
| Will Johnson
|
|

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Burial of Native American woman in 1620s England?

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 22 apr 2006 05:46:31

In article <1145679737.922585.32410@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
lostcooper@yahoo.com wrote:

Most of the Native people who went to Europe during that time died
there rather quickly (as did Pocahontas) because of their lack of
immunity to Eurasian diseases. It is probable that some individuals
survived. A friend of mine is Jack Forbes, Professor Emeritus of
history from University of California, Davis. One of his projects was
to live in Europe for awhile (in Amsterdam, if I recall correctly) to
study modern accounts of people who claim to be descended from such
individuals. Such people had been in contact with him. I have not seen
him for some years and do not know if the project ever reached
fruition. I also know of an individual who was raised in Panama, whose
grandfather had been a high-ranking politician in Mexico.His
mixed-blood family was in Mexico during the colonial period, returned
to Spain for some generations, then back to Mexico. That is not
England, of course, with its anti-miscegenation policies, but at least
it was Europe. I'll try to find out what happened to Forbes' project.

This is very interesting--I'd like to know whether Forbes' project came
to something. There are certainly documented American native descents
into Spain: for example, there's a descent from a branch of the Inca
rulers into Spanish nobility covered in a piece in the Festschrift for
Charles Evans. It would be interesting to know of North American
natives who went to England in the 17th century who have documented
descendants there (as opposed to known mixed descents in North America).


Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

RAY Montgomery

Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'

Legg inn av RAY Montgomery » 22 apr 2006 07:04:02

Will, and all,
Yes Quetzacotle is one of the names that one of the tribes called him. He
was also called tacoma, and jusus, and several others names.
The interesting part how ever is that he had nail holes in his hands and
feet where he was killed by others across the ocean. There is one tribe in
south america that has a hill with three trees with crosses on them to
signify the three crosses of jesus's crusifixon. Sorry guys all of this is
in the corpus of the text, and no I am not making it up.
So yes will, you are right, that was one of his names.
But the interesting thing is, he walked on water, raised the dead, taught
peace, and prayed to his father.
What other of the Gods that are worshiped on this earth has done such
things?
Only one that I know of, and that was jesus Christ.
All of this is documented in the text as to source and origin, with
references.
Sincerely,
Ray


From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: The Irrelevant Off Topic 'Jesus Dynasty'
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 20:23:01 EDT

In a message dated 4/21/06 5:08:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
montereng1@hotmail.com writes:

You will also find in that book that the man whom the indians claimed as
the
great white God was known as jesus.

This is utterly false. The great white God was known as Quetzacotle
(spelling?)
Please quote the book exactly Ray, you'd not doing a good job at
paraphrasing
it.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Father of John, Stephen, Christopher and Bartholomew Hal

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 apr 2006 07:59:04

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 4/21/06 2:37:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

There was also a sister, Mildred, who married (licence dated 1547)
Thomas Docwra, MP, of Putteridge, Herts (1518-1602), named in John
Hales's will, and another son, also John - the eldest son, according to
the one source which names him - who died without issue, possibly in
infancy.

Is this then the Thomas, son of John Docwra and Ann St George ?
and is Mildren then the mother of Ralph Docwra d 1628 ?

Will

Your identification is spot on.

Michael

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