Blount-Ayala
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: in armata manu
In a message dated 2/21/06 8:48:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
geraldrm@earthlink.net writes:
<< The literal meaning is indeed "with a band of armed men", although
"wearing a gauntlet" is equally acceptable. These meanings were
already noted by the editor, who confessed that they made no practical
sense when applied to someone signing a document. There has to be
something more to it. >>
What about "with a guarded hand" meaning something like he obscured his hand
as he wrote his signature ? But I don't know why "while wearing a gauntlet"
should not be viewed as possible. Or maybe "while wearing a cast" ? As in, for
a broken arm?
Will Johnson
geraldrm@earthlink.net writes:
<< The literal meaning is indeed "with a band of armed men", although
"wearing a gauntlet" is equally acceptable. These meanings were
already noted by the editor, who confessed that they made no practical
sense when applied to someone signing a document. There has to be
something more to it. >>
What about "with a guarded hand" meaning something like he obscured his hand
as he wrote his signature ? But I don't know why "while wearing a gauntlet"
should not be viewed as possible. Or maybe "while wearing a cast" ? As in, for
a broken arm?
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Affrica marriage with Olaf I of Man
In a message dated 2/21/06 1:50:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kuhlmann3875@rogers.com writes:
<< In any event, I gather
the date of his death, in 1161, >>
Why do you gather this?
Alick Morrison, THE CHIEFS OF CLAN MACLEOD, 1986
states that he was killed in 1153 "dispatched by his nephew, with an axe"
Will Johnson
kuhlmann3875@rogers.com writes:
<< In any event, I gather
the date of his death, in 1161, >>
Why do you gather this?
Alick Morrison, THE CHIEFS OF CLAN MACLEOD, 1986
states that he was killed in 1153 "dispatched by his nephew, with an axe"
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Affrica marriage with Olaf I of Man
In a message dated 2/21/06 1:50:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kuhlmann3875@rogers.com writes:
<< In many of the references I have seen, Fergus is estimated to have been
born around 1096. One reference, drawn from M'Herlie, says he was aged
42 in 1138. The postee reminds us that little or no supporting
documentation was provided for that statement. In any event, I gather
the date of his death, in 1161, is relatively well proven. If Affrica
married Olaf 1 in 1102, she must have been 15 or older, (b. before
1087?) one would think? And that would imply that Fergus had to have
been born at least 15 years prior to 1087, or no later than 1072. And
therefore over 89 at the time of his death? (and possibly considerably
older than that!) >>
I should have read this more clearly.
You are stating that Fergus died in 1161. I was thinking Olaf when I read
that...
At any rate, the marriage year, if it happened at all, is not set at 1102, so
your entire argument must fall asunder.
Will Johnson
kuhlmann3875@rogers.com writes:
<< In many of the references I have seen, Fergus is estimated to have been
born around 1096. One reference, drawn from M'Herlie, says he was aged
42 in 1138. The postee reminds us that little or no supporting
documentation was provided for that statement. In any event, I gather
the date of his death, in 1161, is relatively well proven. If Affrica
married Olaf 1 in 1102, she must have been 15 or older, (b. before
1087?) one would think? And that would imply that Fergus had to have
been born at least 15 years prior to 1087, or no later than 1072. And
therefore over 89 at the time of his death? (and possibly considerably
older than that!) >>
I should have read this more clearly.
You are stating that Fergus died in 1161. I was thinking Olaf when I read
that...
At any rate, the marriage year, if it happened at all, is not set at 1102, so
your entire argument must fall asunder.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: batisford/echyngham/peplesham
In a message dated 2/18/06 10:00:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< Interesting article out of the PRO C1/9/308
John Denyssh, esq and Margaret his wife vs Thomas Echyngham, knt, john
Tamworth, john judde and john gbbes, manor of pepplesham(peplesham) enfeoffed
by the said margaret. suissex 1386-1486
John Devinish was married to Margery Hurst the heir of Richard Hurst and
Joan Pepleham. Joan Peplehsam was the sister of margery who married Cralle,
Batisford and here we have Thomas Echyngham involved. so another interesting
suit over the peplesham manor. >>
I'm wondering if perhaps after the death of Alice Batisford, if William
Echyngham and family did not continue to exert control over Peplesham Manor? And
this suit is perhaps to say that they have no right to do that and it should be
in the control of Joan Denyssh and his wife Margaret.
Will Johnson
charcsmith@verizon.net writes:
<< Interesting article out of the PRO C1/9/308
John Denyssh, esq and Margaret his wife vs Thomas Echyngham, knt, john
Tamworth, john judde and john gbbes, manor of pepplesham(peplesham) enfeoffed
by the said margaret. suissex 1386-1486
John Devinish was married to Margery Hurst the heir of Richard Hurst and
Joan Pepleham. Joan Peplehsam was the sister of margery who married Cralle,
Batisford and here we have Thomas Echyngham involved. so another interesting
suit over the peplesham manor. >>
I'm wondering if perhaps after the death of Alice Batisford, if William
Echyngham and family did not continue to exert control over Peplesham Manor? And
this suit is perhaps to say that they have no right to do that and it should be
in the control of Joan Denyssh and his wife Margaret.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Elizabeth, The Wife of William Vavasour of Hazelwood
In a message dated 2/17/06 4:47:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
WatsonJohnM@gmail.com writes:
<< Did William Vavasour marry both Elizabeths, or is this a confusion of
two different William Vavasours? >>
I'd like to point out that the primary document you cited does not state
"William" it merely calls the aunt Elizabeth Vavasour, sister of the said John [de
Cressy]
So another possibility is that she did not marry a William at all.
Will Johnson
WatsonJohnM@gmail.com writes:
<< Did William Vavasour marry both Elizabeths, or is this a confusion of
two different William Vavasours? >>
I'd like to point out that the primary document you cited does not state
"William" it merely calls the aunt Elizabeth Vavasour, sister of the said John [de
Cressy]
So another possibility is that she did not marry a William at all.
Will Johnson
-
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: in armata manu
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: in armata manu
| In a message dated 2/21/06 8:48:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
| geraldrm@earthlink.net writes:
|
| << The literal meaning is indeed "with a band of armed men", although
| "wearing a gauntlet" is equally acceptable. These meanings were
| already noted by the editor, who confessed that they made no practical
| sense when applied to someone signing a document. There has to be
| something more to it. >>
|
| What about "with a guarded hand" meaning something like he obscured his hand
| as he wrote his signature ?
OR - with reservations? I am currently reading Edward Rutherford's _London_. In it he, (a careful and meticulous researcher), reports that many were allowed to have it noted that they swore the oath of supremacy, (that that fat tub of lust and greed, Harry, was the supreme head of the church in [sic] England), with reservations. I am quite sure that such a practice didn't spring up _ex nihilo_ - esp. under the circs. of tftolag.
Ford
| But I don't know why "while wearing a gauntlet"
| should not be viewed as possible. Or maybe "while wearing a cast" ? As in, for
| a broken arm?
|
| Will Johnson
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: in armata manu
| In a message dated 2/21/06 8:48:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
| geraldrm@earthlink.net writes:
|
| << The literal meaning is indeed "with a band of armed men", although
| "wearing a gauntlet" is equally acceptable. These meanings were
| already noted by the editor, who confessed that they made no practical
| sense when applied to someone signing a document. There has to be
| something more to it. >>
|
| What about "with a guarded hand" meaning something like he obscured his hand
| as he wrote his signature ?
OR - with reservations? I am currently reading Edward Rutherford's _London_. In it he, (a careful and meticulous researcher), reports that many were allowed to have it noted that they swore the oath of supremacy, (that that fat tub of lust and greed, Harry, was the supreme head of the church in [sic] England), with reservations. I am quite sure that such a practice didn't spring up _ex nihilo_ - esp. under the circs. of tftolag.
Ford
| But I don't know why "while wearing a gauntlet"
| should not be viewed as possible. Or maybe "while wearing a cast" ? As in, for
| a broken arm?
|
| Will Johnson
-
David Teague
Re: in armata manu
Not sure if this fits any better, but William Whitaker's Latin translation
website,
http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe
seems to allow "in a soldier's hand[writing]" as a possibility (construing
"armatu" as the ablative of "armatus," i.e., "{an} armed man/man at arms."
David Teague
website,
http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe
seems to allow "in a soldier's hand[writing]" as a possibility (construing
"armatu" as the ablative of "armatus," i.e., "{an} armed man/man at arms."
David Teague
From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: in armata manu
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:51:14 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: in armata manu
| In a message dated 2/21/06 8:48:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
| geraldrm@earthlink.net writes:
|
| << The literal meaning is indeed "with a band of armed men", although
| "wearing a gauntlet" is equally acceptable. These meanings were
| already noted by the editor, who confessed that they made no practical
| sense when applied to someone signing a document. There has to be
| something more to it.
|
| What about "with a guarded hand" meaning something like he obscured his
hand
| as he wrote his signature ?
OR - with reservations? I am currently reading Edward Rutherford's
_London_. In it he, (a careful and meticulous researcher), reports that
many were allowed to have it noted that they swore the oath of supremacy,
(that that fat tub of lust and greed, Harry, was the supreme head of the
church in [sic] England), with reservations. I am quite sure that such a
practice didn't spring up _ex nihilo_ - esp. under the circs. of tftolag.
Ford
| But I don't know why "while wearing a gauntlet"
| should not be viewed as possible. Or maybe "while wearing a cast" ? As
in, for
| a broken arm?
|
| Will Johnson
-
Paul K Davis
RE: Spanish Moor marriages to Catholics
I believe previous correspondence here has indicated Zaida was the
daughter-in-law, rather than daughter, of Muhammad. Here parentage is
unknown.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
daughter-in-law, rather than daughter, of Muhammad. Here parentage is
unknown.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
[Original Message]
From: W David Samuelsen <dsam@sampubco.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 2/20/2006 9:23:10 PM
Subject: Spanish Moor marriages to Catholics
Alfonso VI, King of Castilla y Leon
had one of 4 wives - Maria Isabel Ximena Ziada, a converted Moor Moslem,
dau of Muhammad III (Abu-I-Kasim) al-Mutamid, King of Granada (1050,
died 1128
rather than Ximena de Guzman, dau of Nuon Rodriguez de Guzman and Ximena
of Leon per Douglas Richardson and Michael Call
I recalled reading the lengthy article more than 15 years ago about the
attempts by the Catholic Spain to erase any trace of links to the
Moslems around the time of Ferdinand and Isabella era (prior to 1492).
So the question, is this one marriage that was passed off as Ximena de
Guzman rather than Maria Isabel Ximena al-Mutamid?
W. David Samuelsen
-
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
Re: Spanish Moor marriages to Catholics
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul K Davis" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: Spanish Moor marriages to Catholics
| I believe previous correspondence here has indicated Zaida was the
| daughter-in-law, rather than daughter, of Muhammad. Here parentage is
| unknown.
|
| -- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
The last time that we discussed this, Dave Kelley told me tat she was the qadi's niece; cousin of her first husband. As we had other matters to discuss, (& we were chatting over international-rates telephone), I was not able to collect further information from him.
Ford
'We are here to awaken from the illusion of our separateness'
- Thich Nhat Hanh
From: "Paul K Davis" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: Spanish Moor marriages to Catholics
| I believe previous correspondence here has indicated Zaida was the
| daughter-in-law, rather than daughter, of Muhammad. Here parentage is
| unknown.
|
| -- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
The last time that we discussed this, Dave Kelley told me tat she was the qadi's niece; cousin of her first husband. As we had other matters to discuss, (& we were chatting over international-rates telephone), I was not able to collect further information from him.
Ford
'We are here to awaken from the illusion of our separateness'
- Thich Nhat Hanh
-
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Re: Affrica marriage with Olaf I of Man
Quos postmodum ita subjectos compulit ut eorum regulus qui Fergusius
dicebatur, militaribus renuncians, Uchtredum filium suum heredem
obsidem regi dimiserit et apud Sanctam Crucem de Edinburgh habitum
caonicalem susceperit.
(Then he forced them into subjection so completely that their sub-King
who was called Fergus, renouncing military action, sent his son and
heir Uchtred to the king as a hostage and took up the habit of a monk
at Holyrood in Edinburgh.)
So writes Walter Bower (Book VIII, folio 156) under 1160. He doesn't
mention Fergus' death in 1161, and I don't know the source for
that, but I have not seen it questioned before.
dicebatur, militaribus renuncians, Uchtredum filium suum heredem
obsidem regi dimiserit et apud Sanctam Crucem de Edinburgh habitum
caonicalem susceperit.
(Then he forced them into subjection so completely that their sub-King
who was called Fergus, renouncing military action, sent his son and
heir Uchtred to the king as a hostage and took up the habit of a monk
at Holyrood in Edinburgh.)
So writes Walter Bower (Book VIII, folio 156) under 1160. He doesn't
mention Fergus' death in 1161, and I don't know the source for
that, but I have not seen it questioned before.
-
Yvonne Purdy
RE: in armata manu
Hi,
Isn't this the motto for the Armstrong clan/family?
Regards,
Yvonne
-----Original Message-----
From: David Teague [mailto:davteague@hotmail.com]
Sent: 22 February 2006 05:29
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: in armata manu
Not sure if this fits any better, but William Whitaker's Latin translation
website,
http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe
seems to allow "in a soldier's hand[writing]" as a possibility (construing
"armatu" as the ablative of "armatus," i.e., "{an} armed man/man at arms."
David Teague
______________________________
Isn't this the motto for the Armstrong clan/family?
Regards,
Yvonne
-----Original Message-----
From: David Teague [mailto:davteague@hotmail.com]
Sent: 22 February 2006 05:29
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: in armata manu
Not sure if this fits any better, but William Whitaker's Latin translation
website,
http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe
seems to allow "in a soldier's hand[writing]" as a possibility (construing
"armatu" as the ablative of "armatus," i.e., "{an} armed man/man at arms."
David Teague
From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: in armata manu
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:51:14 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: in armata manu
| In a message dated 2/21/06 8:48:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
| geraldrm@earthlink.net writes:
|
| << The literal meaning is indeed "with a band of armed men", although
| "wearing a gauntlet" is equally acceptable. These meanings were
| already noted by the editor, who confessed that they made no practical
| sense when applied to someone signing a document. There has to be
| something more to it.
|
| What about "with a guarded hand" meaning something like he obscured his
hand
| as he wrote his signature ?
OR - with reservations? I am currently reading Edward Rutherford's
_London_. In it he, (a careful and meticulous researcher), reports that
many were allowed to have it noted that they swore the oath of supremacy,
(that that fat tub of lust and greed, Harry, was the supreme head of the
church in [sic] England), with reservations. I am quite sure that such a
practice didn't spring up _ex nihilo_ - esp. under the circs. of tftolag.
Ford
| But I don't know why "while wearing a gauntlet"
| should not be viewed as possible. Or maybe "while wearing a cast" ? As
in, for
| a broken arm?
|
| Will Johnson
______________________________
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
Matt Tompkins wrote:
I have always understood that finding aids for CP 40 are minimal, and my
only success in finding entries has been when I've had a precise reference
to work from.
The one potentially useful reference I've seen is to the 30 volumes of
Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts. The National Archives catalogue says that
"This series can be viewed as a series of informal, selective, manuscript
calendars to: CP 40", and that they also contain material from the coram
rege rolls:
http://tinyurl.com/ze24q
I tried to look at these about 10 years ago, but the staff I asked were
unable to track them down (I think I must have been asking the wrong staff).
At any rate, they are in the online catalogue, so there shouldn't be any
difficulty finding them now.
The other thing I have wondered about is that - if I remember correctly -
the original program of research for the Victoria County History included
systematic extraction from various classes of records in the PRO. I'm not
sure of the details - whether it was done nationally or only for selected
counties, whether the notes still exist or where they might have ended up -
but perhaps it would be worth looking iinto.
Chris Phillips
I too would like to make contact with someone who has worked on
CP40/555-987, the 15th century Court of Common Pleas rolls (or indeed
the same rolls from before or after the 15C). I'm hoping to be able to
work on them, and would like to chat about the rolls as a subject of
research, whether there are any guides or finding aids relating to them,
what literature discussing them exists.
I have always understood that finding aids for CP 40 are minimal, and my
only success in finding entries has been when I've had a precise reference
to work from.
The one potentially useful reference I've seen is to the 30 volumes of
Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts. The National Archives catalogue says that
"This series can be viewed as a series of informal, selective, manuscript
calendars to: CP 40", and that they also contain material from the coram
rege rolls:
http://tinyurl.com/ze24q
I tried to look at these about 10 years ago, but the staff I asked were
unable to track them down (I think I must have been asking the wrong staff).
At any rate, they are in the online catalogue, so there shouldn't be any
difficulty finding them now.
The other thing I have wondered about is that - if I remember correctly -
the original program of research for the Victoria County History included
systematic extraction from various classes of records in the PRO. I'm not
sure of the details - whether it was done nationally or only for selected
counties, whether the notes still exist or where they might have ended up -
but perhaps it would be worth looking iinto.
Chris Phillips
-
Tompkins, M.L.
RE: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
<<If there is anyone trawling through CP40s, KB27s and JUST 1s, I should
be pleased to hear from them.>>
I too would like to make contact with someone who has worked on
CP40/555-987, the 15th century Court of Common Pleas rolls (or indeed
the same rolls from before or after the 15C). I'm hoping to be able to
work on them, and would like to chat about the rolls as a subject of
research, whether there are any guides or finding aids relating to them,
what literature discussing them exists.
Regards,
Matt Tompkins
be pleased to hear from them.>>
I too would like to make contact with someone who has worked on
CP40/555-987, the 15th century Court of Common Pleas rolls (or indeed
the same rolls from before or after the 15C). I'm hoping to be able to
work on them, and would like to chat about the rolls as a subject of
research, whether there are any guides or finding aids relating to them,
what literature discussing them exists.
Regards,
Matt Tompkins
-
Gjest
Re: Sir John Burdet's wife, Arderne or Fitton?
I have a note that the wife of Sir John Burdett was Catherine de Ardern the
daughter of John de Ardern of Alvanley, Cheshire and his wife Ellena de
Westeneys.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
daughter of John de Ardern of Alvanley, Cheshire and his wife Ellena de
Westeneys.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
-
Tompkins, M.L.
RE: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
Thank you for that quick answer, Chris. I didn't know about the
Plantagent-Harrison MSS - that's very useful.
Yes, I've always wondered about the many references to unpublished PRO
records in the VCH parish histories, especially in the manorial history
sections. I once read an interesting (and amusing) article about the
young ladies who wrote the parish histories in the VCH for
Buckinghamshire back in the first decade of the 20th century (it was in
Records of Bucks, I think). They were all young history graduates from
Oxford and for each parish allocated to them they were given bundles of
extracts from the main sources for manorial history, and a few other
sources (the returns to the Board of Agriculture in 1904, for example),
and were expected to produce the parish article a short period later.
They never even had the opportunity to visit the parishes. Though they
did a pretty good job, by the lights of the contemporary obsession with
manorial, landowning and ecclesiastical history.
But I've often thought that the production of those bundles of extracts
must have involved the creation of something very close to a calendar of
many of the major medieval record categories at the PRO and wondered why
nothing was ever made of it (except the VCH, of course).
Regards,
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Phillips [mailto:cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk]
Sent: 22 February 2006 09:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
Matt Tompkins wrote:
I have always understood that finding aids for CP 40 are minimal, and my
only success in finding entries has been when I've had a precise
reference to work from.
The one potentially useful reference I've seen is to the 30 volumes of
Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts. The National Archives catalogue says
that "This series can be viewed as a series of informal, selective,
manuscript calendars to: CP 40", and that they also contain material
from the coram rege rolls:
http://tinyurl.com/ze24q
I tried to look at these about 10 years ago, but the staff I asked were
unable to track them down (I think I must have been asking the wrong
staff).
At any rate, they are in the online catalogue, so there shouldn't be any
difficulty finding them now.
The other thing I have wondered about is that - if I remember correctly
- the original program of research for the Victoria County History
included systematic extraction from various classes of records in the
PRO. I'm not sure of the details - whether it was done nationally or
only for selected counties, whether the notes still exist or where they
might have ended up - but perhaps it would be worth looking iinto.
Chris Phillips
Plantagent-Harrison MSS - that's very useful.
Yes, I've always wondered about the many references to unpublished PRO
records in the VCH parish histories, especially in the manorial history
sections. I once read an interesting (and amusing) article about the
young ladies who wrote the parish histories in the VCH for
Buckinghamshire back in the first decade of the 20th century (it was in
Records of Bucks, I think). They were all young history graduates from
Oxford and for each parish allocated to them they were given bundles of
extracts from the main sources for manorial history, and a few other
sources (the returns to the Board of Agriculture in 1904, for example),
and were expected to produce the parish article a short period later.
They never even had the opportunity to visit the parishes. Though they
did a pretty good job, by the lights of the contemporary obsession with
manorial, landowning and ecclesiastical history.
But I've often thought that the production of those bundles of extracts
must have involved the creation of something very close to a calendar of
many of the major medieval record categories at the PRO and wondered why
nothing was ever made of it (except the VCH, of course).
Regards,
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Phillips [mailto:cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk]
Sent: 22 February 2006 09:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
Matt Tompkins wrote:
I too would like to make contact with someone who has worked on
CP40/555-987, the 15th century Court of Common Pleas rolls (or indeed
the same rolls from before or after the 15C). I'm hoping to be able
to work on them, and would like to chat about the rolls as a subject
of research, whether there are any guides or finding aids relating to
them, what literature discussing them exists.
I have always understood that finding aids for CP 40 are minimal, and my
only success in finding entries has been when I've had a precise
reference to work from.
The one potentially useful reference I've seen is to the 30 volumes of
Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts. The National Archives catalogue says
that "This series can be viewed as a series of informal, selective,
manuscript calendars to: CP 40", and that they also contain material
from the coram rege rolls:
http://tinyurl.com/ze24q
I tried to look at these about 10 years ago, but the staff I asked were
unable to track them down (I think I must have been asking the wrong
staff).
At any rate, they are in the online catalogue, so there shouldn't be any
difficulty finding them now.
The other thing I have wondered about is that - if I remember correctly
- the original program of research for the Victoria County History
included systematic extraction from various classes of records in the
PRO. I'm not sure of the details - whether it was done nationally or
only for selected counties, whether the notes still exist or where they
might have ended up - but perhaps it would be worth looking iinto.
Chris Phillips
-
Carl Boyer
Re: Sir John Burdet's wife, Arderne or Fitton?
A source for this is Ormerod's History of Chester, 2:78. Carl Boyer
Maytree4@aol.com wrote: I have a note that the wife of Sir John Burdett was Catherine de Ardern the
daughter of John de Ardern of Alvanley, Cheshire and his wife Ellena de
Westeneys.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
Maytree4@aol.com wrote: I have a note that the wife of Sir John Burdett was Catherine de Ardern the
daughter of John de Ardern of Alvanley, Cheshire and his wife Ellena de
Westeneys.
Rose
Epsom Downs/UK
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Spanish Moor marriages to Catholics
Ford Mommaerts-Browne wrote:
This proposed affiliation has been broadly circulated, but I have never
seen any documentation cited, and I am left suspecting that it is little
more than speculation.
taf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul K Davis" <pkd-gm@earthlink.net
| I believe previous correspondence here has indicated Zaida was the
| daughter-in-law, rather than daughter, of Muhammad. Here parentage is
| unknown.
|
| -- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]
The last time that we discussed this, Dave Kelley told me tat she was the qadi's niece; cousin of her first husband. As we had other matters to discuss, (& we were chatting over international-rates telephone), I was not able to collect further information from him.
Ford
This proposed affiliation has been broadly circulated, but I have never
seen any documentation cited, and I am left suspecting that it is little
more than speculation.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Update to genealogics : Marie de Crequy and the Duke of
In a message dated 2/22/06 11:38:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
<< That son per this same source was Antoine de Blanchefort, and again per
this
source the son of Antoine was Charles de Crequy de Blanchefort and de
Canaples, Prine of Poix, Governor of Dauphiny, peer and Marshall of France,
who became
Duke of Lesdiguieres by his marriage with Madeleine de Bonne, daughter of
the
Constable of Lesdiguieres. >>
Will thank you for that most useful post. And may I add a small bit of
detail as well?
In "Les Manuscrits de Chretien de Troyes", Keith Busby; Editions Rodopi, 1993
we can add that Charles was born about 1575 and died 1638
His first wife Madeleine de Bonne he married in 1595 although the other
source you cited states 1611
She was the daughter of Francois de Bonne, Duke of Lesdiguieres and his wife
Claudine de Beranger
She *died* before her father who d 1626. However as his second wife Charles
married her half-sister Francoise de Bonne in 1623, daughter of the Duke's
second marriage to Marie Vignon
Upon the death of his father-in-law in 1626, Charles then became also known
as the Duke of Lesdiguieres (de jure uxoris)
Their eldest son Francois de Crequy de Blanchefort was born in 1599 and
became Duke of Lesdiguieres upon the death of his father in 1638. He married Anne
de Ragny and they had at least one son Francois Emmanuel in 1645 who died in
1681 at St Germain en Laye. His only son Jean 1678-1703 died s.p. at Modena.
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... UGYwC&pg=R
A1-PA120&lpg=RA1-PA120&dq=blanchefort&sig=sQaZCaxCpWiVjzQL3mOzoHfuxqA
Will Johnson
WJhonson@aol.com writes:
<< That son per this same source was Antoine de Blanchefort, and again per
this
source the son of Antoine was Charles de Crequy de Blanchefort and de
Canaples, Prine of Poix, Governor of Dauphiny, peer and Marshall of France,
who became
Duke of Lesdiguieres by his marriage with Madeleine de Bonne, daughter of
the
Constable of Lesdiguieres. >>
Will thank you for that most useful post. And may I add a small bit of
detail as well?
In "Les Manuscrits de Chretien de Troyes", Keith Busby; Editions Rodopi, 1993
we can add that Charles was born about 1575 and died 1638
His first wife Madeleine de Bonne he married in 1595 although the other
source you cited states 1611
She was the daughter of Francois de Bonne, Duke of Lesdiguieres and his wife
Claudine de Beranger
She *died* before her father who d 1626. However as his second wife Charles
married her half-sister Francoise de Bonne in 1623, daughter of the Duke's
second marriage to Marie Vignon
Upon the death of his father-in-law in 1626, Charles then became also known
as the Duke of Lesdiguieres (de jure uxoris)
Their eldest son Francois de Crequy de Blanchefort was born in 1599 and
became Duke of Lesdiguieres upon the death of his father in 1638. He married Anne
de Ragny and they had at least one son Francois Emmanuel in 1645 who died in
1681 at St Germain en Laye. His only son Jean 1678-1703 died s.p. at Modena.
http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8& ... UGYwC&pg=R
A1-PA120&lpg=RA1-PA120&dq=blanchefort&sig=sQaZCaxCpWiVjzQL3mOzoHfuxqA
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: in armata manu
Could it be a simple statement that He was an armed man, willing and able
to defend his statement by force of arms if neccessary ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
to defend his statement by force of arms if neccessary ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Affrica marriage with Olaf I of Man
Thank you for this. I came across a suggestion that I should look at
some of the commentary by Todd Farmerie on the subject of Fergus. I got
the dates (1102 for Affrica's mariage and 1161for Fergus' death)
firstly from a series of posts (2000) in Gen-Medieval titled "Fergus of
Galloway - Perhaps the Final Word". I then saw the 1161 date of death
in a variety of other places, including one which provided a complete
date: May 12, 1161, and that he was buried at Holyrood. No sources
cited, though.
Alex Maxwell Findlater wrote:
some of the commentary by Todd Farmerie on the subject of Fergus. I got
the dates (1102 for Affrica's mariage and 1161for Fergus' death)
firstly from a series of posts (2000) in Gen-Medieval titled "Fergus of
Galloway - Perhaps the Final Word". I then saw the 1161 date of death
in a variety of other places, including one which provided a complete
date: May 12, 1161, and that he was buried at Holyrood. No sources
cited, though.
Alex Maxwell Findlater wrote:
Quos postmodum ita subjectos compulit ut eorum regulus qui Fergusius
dicebatur, militaribus renuncians, Uchtredum filium suum heredem
obsidem regi dimiserit et apud Sanctam Crucem de Edinburgh habitum
caonicalem susceperit.
(Then he forced them into subjection so completely that their sub-King
who was called Fergus, renouncing military action, sent his son and
heir Uchtred to the king as a hostage and took up the habit of a monk
at Holyrood in Edinburgh.)
So writes Walter Bower (Book VIII, folio 156) under 1160. He doesn't
mention Fergus' death in 1161, and I don't know the source for
that, but I have not seen it questioned before.
-
Brad Verity
Re: Babthorpe of Osgodby/Sothill of Stockerston
Brad Verity wrote:
The date of 8 April 1540 for the death of Christina Sothill Babthorpe
was taken from an editor's footnote to the Sothill pedigree in the 1563
Visitation of Yorkshire. The editor was incorrect. Per the Yorkshire
IPM of William Babthorpe, taken on 16 November 1504, "The said
Christina made William Bedell, her husband, her executor, to perform
the will of the said William Babthorp, late her husband, and died."
Perhaps the "1540" was a transcription mistake for "1504", as a date of
8 April 1504 for Christina's death would fit well.
Actually, the HOP estimate of 1489/90 for Sir William Babthorpe's birth
is due to a misreading of the 1504 IPM. Per the IPM, William Babthorpe
died "10 February, 16 Henry VII. William Babthorp, aged 11 and more,
is his son and heir."
Though Babthorpe died on 10 February 1501, as HOP has it, his IPM was
not undertaken for almost 4 years. So his heir, the future MP Sir
William Babthorpe, was age 11 and more in November 1504, not 1501, so
born about 1492/93, not 1489/90. The difference is only 3 years, but
very critical considering the tight chronology involved if Christina
was the daughter of Elizabeth Plumpton (born about 1461).
Per the 1504 IPM, on 10 May 1499, William Babthorpe enfeoffed his manor
of Osgodby, Yorkshire, on Christina for life, with remainder to himself
and the heirs male of his body. Two of the feoffees were Robert
Sothill and Henry Sothill. Since these were likely the younger sons of
Henry Sothill and Anne Boyville, it may be that Christina was their
younger sister. But as their elder brother John Sothill had died five
years previous to the enfeoffment, it may just be they stepped forward
in his place to protect the interests of their niece.
This is still the case.
Cheers, ------------Brad
Per the bio of her son Sir William Babthorpe (c.1490-1555) in HOP,
Christina was one generation back - the daughter of John Sothill,
esquire, of Stockerston, and a sister of Henry Sothill. Christina
Sothill married 1st, William Babthorpe, of Osgodby, Yorkshire, younger
brother of Sir Ralph Babthorpe, of Babthorpe. Their eldest son, Sir
William Babthorpe, MP, was born 1489/90 (age 11 at the death of his
father). William Babthorpe, husband of Christina, was named an
executor in the 1493 will of Christina's father, John Sothill. William
died 10 February 1501, and Christina married 2ndly, William Bedell, and
died 8 April 1540.
The date of 8 April 1540 for the death of Christina Sothill Babthorpe
was taken from an editor's footnote to the Sothill pedigree in the 1563
Visitation of Yorkshire. The editor was incorrect. Per the Yorkshire
IPM of William Babthorpe, taken on 16 November 1504, "The said
Christina made William Bedell, her husband, her executor, to perform
the will of the said William Babthorp, late her husband, and died."
Perhaps the "1540" was a transcription mistake for "1504", as a date of
8 April 1504 for Christina's death would fit well.
As for Christina Sothill's mother, chronology seems very tight for her
to have been the daughter of Elizabeth Plumpton (c.1461-1506), as
Christina was a mother herself in 1489/90. If Christina was John and
Elizabeth's first child, born about 1475/6, and was herself married
young to William Babthorpe, with their first child Sir William born
1489/90, it is just possible for her to have been Elizabeth's daughter.
Actually, the HOP estimate of 1489/90 for Sir William Babthorpe's birth
is due to a misreading of the 1504 IPM. Per the IPM, William Babthorpe
died "10 February, 16 Henry VII. William Babthorp, aged 11 and more,
is his son and heir."
Though Babthorpe died on 10 February 1501, as HOP has it, his IPM was
not undertaken for almost 4 years. So his heir, the future MP Sir
William Babthorpe, was age 11 and more in November 1504, not 1501, so
born about 1492/93, not 1489/90. The difference is only 3 years, but
very critical considering the tight chronology involved if Christina
was the daughter of Elizabeth Plumpton (born about 1461).
The final possibility is that Christina was a younger sister, instead
of daughter, of John Sothill. This would make her daughter of Henry
Sothill, esquire, of Stockerston, by his wife Anne Boyville, heiress of
Stockerston. It may explain how she came to be misidentified as a
daughter of Henry Sothill and Joan Empson. We don't have dates for
Henry Sothill and Anne Boyville, other than knowing that Henry Sothill
died before his son John (d. 1494), and Anne died after her son, and
before her grandson Henry (d. 1506). Anne's father, John Boyville of
Stockerston, died in 1467.
Per the 1504 IPM, on 10 May 1499, William Babthorpe enfeoffed his manor
of Osgodby, Yorkshire, on Christina for life, with remainder to himself
and the heirs male of his body. Two of the feoffees were Robert
Sothill and Henry Sothill. Since these were likely the younger sons of
Henry Sothill and Anne Boyville, it may be that Christina was their
younger sister. But as their elder brother John Sothill had died five
years previous to the enfeoffment, it may just be they stepped forward
in his place to protect the interests of their niece.
So more research needs to be done to identify the exact parentage of
Christina Sothill Babthorpe, but it can be ruled out that she was a
daughter of Henry Sothill and Joan Empson.
This is still the case.
Cheers, ------------Brad
-
Gjest
Re: the movie
Have a look at The Movie Mistakes website -
http://www.moviemistakes.com/film207
98 entries for Braveheart - typical are
After Wallace kills the Scottish noble in bed, he jumps out of the castle
window into a river on a horse. As he is falling, you can see that the horse
is a model and when they fall into the water one can see the paper-mache (or
whatever) horse bobbing around.
When Wallace walks up to the man who killed Murron and faces him. Look at
the man behind Wallace and the man. You can actually see a car passing
behind his head in the distance
The film hints that Wallace is the father of Isabella's child (and the
ancestor of all future kings and queens of England) but Isabella's baby (the
future Edward III) was born in 1312, seven years after Wallace's execution
in 1305.
Scots did not wear the kilt until the 17th century. They wore the saffron
shirt prior to that (in Braveheart's time).
In the movie the Scots sack the English city of York. Actually they sacked
the city of Carlisle.
My best Scottish film - Whisky Galore (I think it's called Tight Little
Island in the United States)
cheers
Simon
http://www.moviemistakes.com/film207
98 entries for Braveheart - typical are
After Wallace kills the Scottish noble in bed, he jumps out of the castle
window into a river on a horse. As he is falling, you can see that the horse
is a model and when they fall into the water one can see the paper-mache (or
whatever) horse bobbing around.
When Wallace walks up to the man who killed Murron and faces him. Look at
the man behind Wallace and the man. You can actually see a car passing
behind his head in the distance
The film hints that Wallace is the father of Isabella's child (and the
ancestor of all future kings and queens of England) but Isabella's baby (the
future Edward III) was born in 1312, seven years after Wallace's execution
in 1305.
Scots did not wear the kilt until the 17th century. They wore the saffron
shirt prior to that (in Braveheart's time).
In the movie the Scots sack the English city of York. Actually they sacked
the city of Carlisle.
My best Scottish film - Whisky Galore (I think it's called Tight Little
Island in the United States)
cheers
Simon
-
Gjest
Re: Rose ~ Addition to Mr. Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry
_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Rose ~ Addition to Mr. Richardson's Magna Carta
Ancestry, page 369 (sub Gerard)_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1140122584)
In her book Colonial Virginians and Their Maryland Relatives Norma Tucker
puts forth an identification of Rose (----------) Sheppard-Tucker-Gerrard-Newton
as ROSANNA Sturman, daughter of Thomas Sturman. At first I dismissed her
conclusion because I thought there was not enough evidence to support her
conclusion. After reviewing her book as well as further research on my own part
I think there is enough onomastic and associative evidence to support an
identification of Rose as ROSAMUND Sturman, daughter of Thomas Sturman (b. ca.
1583 Haddenham Parish, Buckinghamshire ~ d. before 22 Jun. 1654 Westmoreland
County, Virginia) by his wife Anne Sparrow (d. testate between 22 Jun. & 21
Aug. 1654 Westmoreland County, Virginia). Thomas Sturman was an early settler
on Kent Island in the Chesapeake, working for the London-based, Puritan
merchant group, Cloberry & Company. I would enjoy discussing the possibility of
Rose being Thomas Sturman's daughter Rosamund with other interested researchers.
Ancestry, page 369 (sub Gerard)_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1140122584)
In her book Colonial Virginians and Their Maryland Relatives Norma Tucker
puts forth an identification of Rose (----------) Sheppard-Tucker-Gerrard-Newton
as ROSANNA Sturman, daughter of Thomas Sturman. At first I dismissed her
conclusion because I thought there was not enough evidence to support her
conclusion. After reviewing her book as well as further research on my own part
I think there is enough onomastic and associative evidence to support an
identification of Rose as ROSAMUND Sturman, daughter of Thomas Sturman (b. ca.
1583 Haddenham Parish, Buckinghamshire ~ d. before 22 Jun. 1654 Westmoreland
County, Virginia) by his wife Anne Sparrow (d. testate between 22 Jun. & 21
Aug. 1654 Westmoreland County, Virginia). Thomas Sturman was an early settler
on Kent Island in the Chesapeake, working for the London-based, Puritan
merchant group, Cloberry & Company. I would enjoy discussing the possibility of
Rose being Thomas Sturman's daughter Rosamund with other interested researchers.
-
kenneth jacob
Re: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
"Tompkins, M.L." wrote:
I have been trawling through various plea rolls for some 30 years,
abstracting much information. They are one of the most important
sources of genealogical information in earlier periods. Plantagenet
Harrison's understood this, and his volumes are useful, but he was only
scratching the surface. I had the same problem getting to see them at
the NA, but it is not that long ago that they acquired half of these
volumes from the late Philip Blake, who owned them in Folkestone, where
I saw them (his 15 odd volumes).
The reason I asked about plea rolls is that I trawl through them, and
trawl you must. The entries on the left hand column give the county,
and presumably one is interested in one county or the other.
I am looking for people who can assist me as far as the names in whom I
am interested are concerned, and whom I can assist, reciprocally,
something incidentally I have done for a number of people over a good
many years.
The bigger issue is does one want to set up a group who will transcribe
or abstract complete rolls. I transcribed an early 14th century roll as
far as Kent entries are concerned. Can't remember which one. The List
and Index Society covered two or more rolls of 1327-1328.
Food for thought.
Kenneth Jacob
Thank you for that quick answer, Chris. I didn't know about the
Plantagent-Harrison MSS - that's very useful.
Yes, I've always wondered about the many references to unpublished PRO
records in the VCH parish histories, especially in the manorial history
sections. I once read an interesting (and amusing) article about the
young ladies who wrote the parish histories in the VCH for
Buckinghamshire back in the first decade of the 20th century (it was in
Records of Bucks, I think). They were all young history graduates from
Oxford and for each parish allocated to them they were given bundles of
extracts from the main sources for manorial history, and a few other
sources (the returns to the Board of Agriculture in 1904, for example),
and were expected to produce the parish article a short period later.
They never even had the opportunity to visit the parishes. Though they
did a pretty good job, by the lights of the contemporary obsession with
manorial, landowning and ecclesiastical history.
But I've often thought that the production of those bundles of extracts
must have involved the creation of something very close to a calendar of
many of the major medieval record categories at the PRO and wondered why
nothing was ever made of it (except the VCH, of course).
Regards,
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Phillips [mailto:cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk]
Sent: 22 February 2006 09:59
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
Matt Tompkins wrote:
I too would like to make contact with someone who has worked on
CP40/555-987, the 15th century Court of Common Pleas rolls (or indeed
the same rolls from before or after the 15C). I'm hoping to be able
to work on them, and would like to chat about the rolls as a subject
of research, whether there are any guides or finding aids relating to
them, what literature discussing them exists.
I have always understood that finding aids for CP 40 are minimal, and my
only success in finding entries has been when I've had a precise
reference to work from.
The one potentially useful reference I've seen is to the 30 volumes of
Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts. The National Archives catalogue says
that "This series can be viewed as a series of informal, selective,
manuscript calendars to: CP 40", and that they also contain material
from the coram rege rolls:
http://tinyurl.com/ze24q
I tried to look at these about 10 years ago, but the staff I asked were
unable to track them down (I think I must have been asking the wrong
staff).
At any rate, they are in the online catalogue, so there shouldn't be any
difficulty finding them now.
The other thing I have wondered about is that - if I remember correctly
- the original program of research for the Victoria County History
included systematic extraction from various classes of records in the
PRO. I'm not sure of the details - whether it was done nationally or
only for selected counties, whether the notes still exist or where they
might have ended up - but perhaps it would be worth looking iinto.
Chris Phillips
I have been trawling through various plea rolls for some 30 years,
abstracting much information. They are one of the most important
sources of genealogical information in earlier periods. Plantagenet
Harrison's understood this, and his volumes are useful, but he was only
scratching the surface. I had the same problem getting to see them at
the NA, but it is not that long ago that they acquired half of these
volumes from the late Philip Blake, who owned them in Folkestone, where
I saw them (his 15 odd volumes).
The reason I asked about plea rolls is that I trawl through them, and
trawl you must. The entries on the left hand column give the county,
and presumably one is interested in one county or the other.
I am looking for people who can assist me as far as the names in whom I
am interested are concerned, and whom I can assist, reciprocally,
something incidentally I have done for a number of people over a good
many years.
The bigger issue is does one want to set up a group who will transcribe
or abstract complete rolls. I transcribed an early 14th century roll as
far as Kent entries are concerned. Can't remember which one. The List
and Index Society covered two or more rolls of 1327-1328.
Food for thought.
Kenneth Jacob
-
Brad Verity
Gateway Broken Again
None of the posts I made yesterday onto SGM through Google have made it
through to the mailing list.
I'll send them on through the mailing list - apologies for any double
posting.
I don't use the Rootsweb site, so I don't know if they are appearing there.
---Brad
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm0 ... direct/01/
through to the mailing list.
I'll send them on through the mailing list - apologies for any double
posting.
I don't use the Rootsweb site, so I don't know if they are appearing there.
---Brad
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm0 ... direct/01/
-
Brad Verity
RE: Babthorpe of Osgodby/Sothill of Stockerston
Brad Verity wrote:
The date of 8 April 1540 for the death of Christina Sothill Babthorpe
was taken from an editor's footnote to the Sothill pedigree in the 1563
Visitation of Yorkshire. The editor was incorrect. Per the Yorkshire
IPM of William Babthorpe, taken on 16 November 1504, "The said
Christina made William Bedell, her husband, her executor, to perform
the will of the said William Babthorp, late her husband, and died."
Perhaps the "1540" was a transcription mistake for "1504", as a date of
8 April 1504 for Christina's death would fit well.
Actually, the HOP estimate of 1489/90 for Sir William Babthorpe's birth
is due to a misreading of the 1504 IPM. Per the IPM, William Babthorpe
died "10 February, 16 Henry VII. William Babthorp, aged 11 and more,
is his son and heir."
Though Babthorpe died on 10 February 1501, as HOP has it, his IPM was
not undertaken for almost 4 years. So his heir, the future MP Sir
William Babthorpe, was age 11 and more in November 1504, not 1501, so
born about 1492/93, not 1489/90. The difference is only 3 years, but
very critical considering the tight chronology involved if Christina
was the daughter of Elizabeth Plumpton (born about 1461).
Per the 1504 IPM, on 10 May 1499, William Babthorpe enfeoffed his manor
of Osgodby, Yorkshire, on Christina for life, with remainder to himself
and the heirs male of his body. Two of the feoffees were Robert
Sothill and Henry Sothill. Since these were likely the younger sons of
Henry Sothill and Anne Boyville, it may be that Christina was their
younger sister. But as their elder brother John Sothill had died five
years previous to the enfeoffment, it may just be they stepped forward
in his place to protect the interests of their niece.
This is still the case.
Cheers, ------------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/
Per the bio of her son Sir William Babthorpe (c.1490-1555) in HOP,
Christina was one generation back - the daughter of John Sothill, esquire,
of Stockerston, and a sister of Henry Sothill. Christina Sothill married
1st, William Babthorpe, of Osgodby, Yorkshire, younger brother of Sir Ralph
Babthorpe, of Babthorpe. Their eldest son, Sir William Babthorpe, MP, was
born 1489/90 (age 11 at the death of his father). William Babthorpe,
husband of Christina, was named an executor in the 1493 will of Christina's
father, John Sothill. William died 10 February 1501, and Christina married
2ndly, William Bedell, and died 8 April 1540.
The date of 8 April 1540 for the death of Christina Sothill Babthorpe
was taken from an editor's footnote to the Sothill pedigree in the 1563
Visitation of Yorkshire. The editor was incorrect. Per the Yorkshire
IPM of William Babthorpe, taken on 16 November 1504, "The said
Christina made William Bedell, her husband, her executor, to perform
the will of the said William Babthorp, late her husband, and died."
Perhaps the "1540" was a transcription mistake for "1504", as a date of
8 April 1504 for Christina's death would fit well.
As for Christina Sothill's mother, chronology seems very tight for her to
have been the daughter of Elizabeth Plumpton (c.1461-1506), as Christina
was a mother herself in 1489/90. If Christina was John and Elizabeth's
first child, born about 1475/6, and was herself married young to William
Babthorpe, with their first child Sir William born 1489/90, it is just
possible for her to have been Elizabeth's daughter.
Actually, the HOP estimate of 1489/90 for Sir William Babthorpe's birth
is due to a misreading of the 1504 IPM. Per the IPM, William Babthorpe
died "10 February, 16 Henry VII. William Babthorp, aged 11 and more,
is his son and heir."
Though Babthorpe died on 10 February 1501, as HOP has it, his IPM was
not undertaken for almost 4 years. So his heir, the future MP Sir
William Babthorpe, was age 11 and more in November 1504, not 1501, so
born about 1492/93, not 1489/90. The difference is only 3 years, but
very critical considering the tight chronology involved if Christina
was the daughter of Elizabeth Plumpton (born about 1461).
The final possibility is that Christina was a younger sister, instead of
daughter, of John Sothill. This would make her daughter of Henry Sothill,
esquire, of Stockerston, by his wife Anne Boyville, heiress of Stockerston.
It may explain how she came to be misidentified as a daughter of Henry
Sothill and Joan Empson. We don't have dates for Henry Sothill and Anne
Boyville, other than knowing that Henry Sothill died before his son John
(d. 1494), and Anne died after her son, and before her grandson Henry (d.
1506). Anne's father, John Boyville of Stockerston, died in 1467.
Per the 1504 IPM, on 10 May 1499, William Babthorpe enfeoffed his manor
of Osgodby, Yorkshire, on Christina for life, with remainder to himself
and the heirs male of his body. Two of the feoffees were Robert
Sothill and Henry Sothill. Since these were likely the younger sons of
Henry Sothill and Anne Boyville, it may be that Christina was their
younger sister. But as their elder brother John Sothill had died five
years previous to the enfeoffment, it may just be they stepped forward
in his place to protect the interests of their niece.
So more research needs to be done to identify the exact parentage of
Christina Sothill Babthorpe, but it can be ruled out that she was a
daughter of Henry Sothill and Joan Empson.
This is still the case.
Cheers, ------------Brad
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Gateway Broken Again
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:22:19 -0800
None of the posts I made yesterday onto SGM through Google have made it
through to the mailing list.
I'll send them on through the mailing list - apologies for any double
posting.
I don't use the Rootsweb site, so I don't know if they are appearing there.
---Brad
_________________________________________________________________
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_________________________________________________________________
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-
Brad Verity
RE: Sir John Ferrers MP
Brad Verity wrote:
It turns out Wedgwood did misread "24" as "34". Per the Warwickshire
IPM of Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth, taken 12 October 1498, "John
Ferrers, knight, aged 24 and more, is his cousin and next heir, viz.
son of John Ferrers, knight, his son."
So John Ferrers II of Tamworth was born about 1473/4, which fits in
much better chronologically with his sisters and their husbands.
Cheers, ----------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
The date of 1463 for the birth of Sir John Ferrers II of Tamworth comes
from Wedgwood's HOP, which derived it because John II was age 34 at the
death of his grandfather Thomas Ferrers II in 1498. But I think the 1474
birthdate for John II that you mention above is correct. Perhaps Wedgwood
misread age '24' in 1498 for age '34' in 1498.
It turns out Wedgwood did misread "24" as "34". Per the Warwickshire
IPM of Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth, taken 12 October 1498, "John
Ferrers, knight, aged 24 and more, is his cousin and next heir, viz.
son of John Ferrers, knight, his son."
So John Ferrers II of Tamworth was born about 1473/4, which fits in
much better chronologically with his sisters and their husbands.
Cheers, ----------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
-
Brad Verity
Ferrers of Fiddington (Was Re: Sir John Ferrers MP)
"John Higgins" wrote:
Last week at the UCLA Library I had time to copy the pages on
Fiddington from VCH Gloucestershire Vol. 8. Here is a transcription
(pp. 177-179):
"Rowland Cole and his son Thomas were both living at Northway in 1623,
but in 1626 Henry Ferrers (created a baronet in 1628) had the freehold
of Cole's Place, which Thomas Ferrers held at his death in 1636.
Thomas's son and heir William was then a minor. The Ferrerses did not
have the whole of the Coles' estate ... Richard Kemble had in 1651
acquired lands in Fiddington from Sir Henry Ferrers, Bt., son of John
Ferrers of Fiddington. John Ferrers's father, Roger, who came from
Corsham (Wilts.), had married Margaret, daughter of Giles Badger of
Fiddington (fl. 1536), and was recorded in 1547 as a copyholder of the
Warwick manor of Fiddington and Natton, along with Christopher Kemble
who had succeeded to the holding of his father, Richard. John
Ferrers's younger brother, William (d. 1625), a citizen of London,
whose monument is in Ashchurch church, endowed charities in Ashchurch
and Tewkesbury."
The above information does match up to the Ferrers of Fiddington line
on the Tudor Place website. Apparently the source for Tudor Place (and
the VCH Gloucestershire entry above) was a pedigree (p. 59) in the 1623
Visitation of Gloucestershire. Another source VCH Glos. used was
Burke's Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies (1838), p. 195.
Unfortunately, the VCH Wiltshire series has not yet covered Chippenham
hundred, which is where Corsham is. Per the info on the Tudor Place
website, Roger Ferrers of Corsham who married Margaret Badger, was the
grandson of John Ferrers (1454-1485) of "Blunsden, Wiltshire," who
married Margaret Hungerford of Down Ampney.
So we're still not yet able to verify the marriage of Margaret
Hungerford to a John Ferrers, or determine, if there was one, how her
John Ferrers fit into the Ferrers of Groby or Chartley lines.
Cheers, ---------------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
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This is another useful piece of information in the Ferrers puzzle, in
helping to deal with the Ferrers/Hungerford marriage. The marriage of John
Ferrers "of Plowden" to Margaret Hungerford is mentioned in Burke's Dormant
and Extinct Peerages (but not his Baronetcies book). FWIW, the Tudorplace
website shows Margaret as marrying John Ferrers of Blunsden, whose
descendants are called Ferrers of Fiddington in Gloucestershire.
Tudorplace gives no parentage for John Ferrers of Blunsden, and of course
no sources. Interestingly, his great-grandson is shown as marrying a
daughter of the family of Ferrers of Baddesley Clinton.
Last week at the UCLA Library I had time to copy the pages on
Fiddington from VCH Gloucestershire Vol. 8. Here is a transcription
(pp. 177-179):
"Rowland Cole and his son Thomas were both living at Northway in 1623,
but in 1626 Henry Ferrers (created a baronet in 1628) had the freehold
of Cole's Place, which Thomas Ferrers held at his death in 1636.
Thomas's son and heir William was then a minor. The Ferrerses did not
have the whole of the Coles' estate ... Richard Kemble had in 1651
acquired lands in Fiddington from Sir Henry Ferrers, Bt., son of John
Ferrers of Fiddington. John Ferrers's father, Roger, who came from
Corsham (Wilts.), had married Margaret, daughter of Giles Badger of
Fiddington (fl. 1536), and was recorded in 1547 as a copyholder of the
Warwick manor of Fiddington and Natton, along with Christopher Kemble
who had succeeded to the holding of his father, Richard. John
Ferrers's younger brother, William (d. 1625), a citizen of London,
whose monument is in Ashchurch church, endowed charities in Ashchurch
and Tewkesbury."
The above information does match up to the Ferrers of Fiddington line
on the Tudor Place website. Apparently the source for Tudor Place (and
the VCH Gloucestershire entry above) was a pedigree (p. 59) in the 1623
Visitation of Gloucestershire. Another source VCH Glos. used was
Burke's Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies (1838), p. 195.
Unfortunately, the VCH Wiltshire series has not yet covered Chippenham
hundred, which is where Corsham is. Per the info on the Tudor Place
website, Roger Ferrers of Corsham who married Margaret Badger, was the
grandson of John Ferrers (1454-1485) of "Blunsden, Wiltshire," who
married Margaret Hungerford of Down Ampney.
So we're still not yet able to verify the marriage of Margaret
Hungerford to a John Ferrers, or determine, if there was one, how her
John Ferrers fit into the Ferrers of Groby or Chartley lines.
Cheers, ---------------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/
-
Don Stone
Re: Gateway Broken Again
Brad Verity wrote:
I have sent information about one of these non-gated posts to the person who
maintains the gateway at RootsWeb. I hope this will help him track down the
problem.
-- Don Stone, GEN-MED co-listowner
None of the posts I made yesterday onto SGM through Google have made it
through to the mailing list.
I'll send them on through the mailing list - apologies for any double
posting.
I have sent information about one of these non-gated posts to the person who
maintains the gateway at RootsWeb. I hope this will help him track down the
problem.
-- Don Stone, GEN-MED co-listowner
-
Brad Verity
RE: Daughters of the 10th Lord Clifford
Brad Verity wrote:
Some more evidence concerning the marriage and children of the 10th Lord
Clifford.
Per the c.1505 Henry VII Relations pedigrees, the children of the 10th Lord
Clifford and Anne St. John were:
1) Jane
2) Mabill
3) Henry, son and heir
4) Anne
5) Thomas
6) Alianor
By the 1563/4 Visitation of Yorkshire, there were still six children, but
they had become:
1) Henry Fyrst Erl of Comberland
2) Anne wyff to Sir Raff Bowes
3) Jone to ..... Ratclyffe
4) Mary to Sir Jervys Clyfton
5) Mabel to Sir William Fytz William, Erl of Southampton
Eleanor had disappeared, replaced by a Mary.
In the 17th century, Lady Anne Clifford wrote an account of her Clifford
ancestors, and enumerated the children of the 10th Lord Clifford and Anne
St. John as [from "Clifford Letters of the Sixteenth Century" edited by A.G.
Dickens, Surtees Society, Vol. 172, 1962, pp. 130-131]:
1) Henry Clifford their eldest son born A.D. 1493
2) Thomas Clifford the 2d son
3) Mabel Clifford their eldest daughter marryed to William FitzWilliams Earl
of Southampton
4) Eleanor Clifford, 2d daughter & 4th child, married to Markenfield
5) Anne Clifford, 3d daughter and 5th child, was married to Robert Metcalf
6) Joan Clifford, 4th daughter & 6th child, was marryed to Sir Ralph Bowes
of Areton
The first names are the same as those from the c.1505 pedigree. There
continues to be two sons and four daughters. Mary has disappeared, Eleanor
is back. Marriages to Clifton and Ratcliffe have also disappeared.
Of the marriages given in the 1563/4 and 17th century pedigrees, Mabel's to
the earl of Southampton and Eleanor's to Markenfield are confirmed by
contemporary records. The Ratcliffe marriage is also confirmed, but the
first name of Lord Clifford's daughter was 'Margaret', not 'Jone'. The
Clifton marriage is confirmed, but the first name was 'Anne' not 'Mary'.
The Bowes marriage is confirmed only through Visitation pedigrees - no
marriage license date, or letters seem to have survived. Per evidence in
Bowes and Tonge (the second husband) pedigrees, the Clifford daughter's
first name was 'Elizabeth', not 'Anne' or 'Joan'. The Metcalf marriage
given by Lady Anne Clifford is an error - there was no Robert Metcalfe who
could have married a daughter of the 10th Lord Clifford in any Metcalfe
pedigrees and records.
What remains consistent in all three pedigrees above is the number of
children of the 10th Lord Clifford and Anne St. John: two sons and four
daughters.
Could two of the daughters have been illegitimate? Lady Anne Clifford has
this to say about the marriage of the 10th Lord and Anne St. John:
"But towards the latter end, her husband was unkind to her, & had 2 or 3
children (base) by another woman, so as by reason of that & of her husbands
taking part with some of the Commons about taxes against the said King Henry
the 7th in the latter end of his reign, he was in some disgrace with the
said King. And by the charter of the Prior of Gisborne it appears this
excellent & virtuous Lady Anne St. John, Lady Clifford, was alive the 12th
of May, in the 21st year of Henry the 7th [1506], but certain it is, she
dyed within a while after."
The marriage troubles of the 10th Lord and Anne St. John are confirmed by
Michael K. Jones & Malcolm G. Underwood, "The King's Mother: Lady Margaret
Beaufort, Countess of Richmond and Derby" (Cambridge, 1992), pp. 163-164:
"The hospitality afforded these ladies also revealed Margaret's strong sense
of family obligation. Anne, Lady Clifford, who was put up with two of her
daughters, was the daughter of Margaret's half-brother John St John. In
1493 [sic?] she had married the eccentric Henry Lord Clifford, the so-called
'shepherd-lord', who had avoided political retribution in the Yorkist period
by adopting the disguise of a peasant-farmer. Restored to his estates by
Henry VII he seldom came to court but led a strange, reclusive existence in
his tower of Bardon, near Bolton, where he devoted his energies to a study
of astronomy. The marriage was evidently not a success. Anne's chaplain
explored the possibility of a separation, travelling to court to discuss the
matter with the king and Lady Margaret. Margaret offered placement within
her household. The chaplain then appealed to Richard Fox, bishop of Durham,
for his assistance in the matter, 'that nowe with your help I trust she
shall come up and attend upon my Lady.' [footnote: SJC, D102.10, p. 138,
142-3; 'CP', III, 294; 'Letters of Richard Fox, 1486-1527', ed. P.S. and
H.M. Allen (Oxford, 1929), 18.]"
The possibility that Dame Elizabeth Bowes and Dame Margaret Ratcliffe were
illegitimate still cannot be ruled out.
Cheers, ----------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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I agree. I do feel though that the identification of Dame Elizabeth
Bowes and Dame Margaret Radcliffe as daughters of Anne St. John is less
solid than those of the other daughters who do appear in the pedigree
of c.1505. Because that information was gathered during the lifetime
of the 10th Lord Clifford, and possibly even during the lifetime of
Anne St. John, it seems unusual that two daughters who were known to
survive infancy and go on to marry, were left off of the pedigree.
Especially when the other children listed match up so well to known
chronology and appear to be, unusually, listed in order of birth.
Some more evidence concerning the marriage and children of the 10th Lord
Clifford.
Per the c.1505 Henry VII Relations pedigrees, the children of the 10th Lord
Clifford and Anne St. John were:
1) Jane
2) Mabill
3) Henry, son and heir
4) Anne
5) Thomas
6) Alianor
By the 1563/4 Visitation of Yorkshire, there were still six children, but
they had become:
1) Henry Fyrst Erl of Comberland
2) Anne wyff to Sir Raff Bowes
3) Jone to ..... Ratclyffe
4) Mary to Sir Jervys Clyfton
5) Mabel to Sir William Fytz William, Erl of Southampton
Eleanor had disappeared, replaced by a Mary.
In the 17th century, Lady Anne Clifford wrote an account of her Clifford
ancestors, and enumerated the children of the 10th Lord Clifford and Anne
St. John as [from "Clifford Letters of the Sixteenth Century" edited by A.G.
Dickens, Surtees Society, Vol. 172, 1962, pp. 130-131]:
1) Henry Clifford their eldest son born A.D. 1493
2) Thomas Clifford the 2d son
3) Mabel Clifford their eldest daughter marryed to William FitzWilliams Earl
of Southampton
4) Eleanor Clifford, 2d daughter & 4th child, married to Markenfield
5) Anne Clifford, 3d daughter and 5th child, was married to Robert Metcalf
6) Joan Clifford, 4th daughter & 6th child, was marryed to Sir Ralph Bowes
of Areton
The first names are the same as those from the c.1505 pedigree. There
continues to be two sons and four daughters. Mary has disappeared, Eleanor
is back. Marriages to Clifton and Ratcliffe have also disappeared.
Of the marriages given in the 1563/4 and 17th century pedigrees, Mabel's to
the earl of Southampton and Eleanor's to Markenfield are confirmed by
contemporary records. The Ratcliffe marriage is also confirmed, but the
first name of Lord Clifford's daughter was 'Margaret', not 'Jone'. The
Clifton marriage is confirmed, but the first name was 'Anne' not 'Mary'.
The Bowes marriage is confirmed only through Visitation pedigrees - no
marriage license date, or letters seem to have survived. Per evidence in
Bowes and Tonge (the second husband) pedigrees, the Clifford daughter's
first name was 'Elizabeth', not 'Anne' or 'Joan'. The Metcalf marriage
given by Lady Anne Clifford is an error - there was no Robert Metcalfe who
could have married a daughter of the 10th Lord Clifford in any Metcalfe
pedigrees and records.
What remains consistent in all three pedigrees above is the number of
children of the 10th Lord Clifford and Anne St. John: two sons and four
daughters.
Could two of the daughters have been illegitimate? Lady Anne Clifford has
this to say about the marriage of the 10th Lord and Anne St. John:
"But towards the latter end, her husband was unkind to her, & had 2 or 3
children (base) by another woman, so as by reason of that & of her husbands
taking part with some of the Commons about taxes against the said King Henry
the 7th in the latter end of his reign, he was in some disgrace with the
said King. And by the charter of the Prior of Gisborne it appears this
excellent & virtuous Lady Anne St. John, Lady Clifford, was alive the 12th
of May, in the 21st year of Henry the 7th [1506], but certain it is, she
dyed within a while after."
The marriage troubles of the 10th Lord and Anne St. John are confirmed by
Michael K. Jones & Malcolm G. Underwood, "The King's Mother: Lady Margaret
Beaufort, Countess of Richmond and Derby" (Cambridge, 1992), pp. 163-164:
"The hospitality afforded these ladies also revealed Margaret's strong sense
of family obligation. Anne, Lady Clifford, who was put up with two of her
daughters, was the daughter of Margaret's half-brother John St John. In
1493 [sic?] she had married the eccentric Henry Lord Clifford, the so-called
'shepherd-lord', who had avoided political retribution in the Yorkist period
by adopting the disguise of a peasant-farmer. Restored to his estates by
Henry VII he seldom came to court but led a strange, reclusive existence in
his tower of Bardon, near Bolton, where he devoted his energies to a study
of astronomy. The marriage was evidently not a success. Anne's chaplain
explored the possibility of a separation, travelling to court to discuss the
matter with the king and Lady Margaret. Margaret offered placement within
her household. The chaplain then appealed to Richard Fox, bishop of Durham,
for his assistance in the matter, 'that nowe with your help I trust she
shall come up and attend upon my Lady.' [footnote: SJC, D102.10, p. 138,
142-3; 'CP', III, 294; 'Letters of Richard Fox, 1486-1527', ed. P.S. and
H.M. Allen (Oxford, 1929), 18.]"
The possibility that Dame Elizabeth Bowes and Dame Margaret Ratcliffe were
illegitimate still cannot be ruled out.
Cheers, ----------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
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-
John Brandon
Re: Daughters of the 10th Lord Clifford
The possibility that Dame Elizabeth Bowes and Dame Margaret Ratcliffe were
illegitimate still cannot be ruled out.
The possibility, while it exists, is faint, especially as Anne Clifford
reported that Lord Clifford's straying occurred near the end of his
first marriage, and, as such, could not have produced the wife of Ralph
Bowes (d. ca. 1515 or 1516).
I think we must simply accept that the available records on this family
are 1) rather poor and 2) contradictory.
-
Paul Mackenzie
Re: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
Chris Phillips wrote:
I have seen the reference to this publication before. Unfortunately, I
believe you need to see these manuscripts in situ. If you do indeed
follow this up, would you please advise us whether these manuscripts
have an index?
Kind Regards
Paul
Matt Tompkins wrote:
I too would like to make contact with someone who has worked on
CP40/555-987, the 15th century Court of Common Pleas rolls (or indeed
the same rolls from before or after the 15C). I'm hoping to be able to
work on them, and would like to chat about the rolls as a subject of
research, whether there are any guides or finding aids relating to them,
what literature discussing them exists.
I have always understood that finding aids for CP 40 are minimal, and my
only success in finding entries has been when I've had a precise reference
to work from.
The one potentially useful reference I've seen is to the 30 volumes of
Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts. The National Archives catalogue says that
"This series can be viewed as a series of informal, selective, manuscript
calendars to: CP 40", and that they also contain material from the coram
rege rolls:
http://tinyurl.com/ze24q
I tried to look at these about 10 years ago, but the staff I asked were
unable to track them down (I think I must have been asking the wrong staff).
At any rate, they are in the online catalogue, so there shouldn't be any
difficulty finding them now.
The other thing I have wondered about is that - if I remember correctly -
the original program of research for the Victoria County History included
systematic extraction from various classes of records in the PRO. I'm not
sure of the details - whether it was done nationally or only for selected
counties, whether the notes still exist or where they might have ended up -
but perhaps it would be worth looking iinto.
Chris Phillips
Hi Matt & Chris:
I have seen the reference to this publication before. Unfortunately, I
believe you need to see these manuscripts in situ. If you do indeed
follow this up, would you please advise us whether these manuscripts
have an index?
Kind Regards
Paul
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
Paul Mackenzie wrote:
I'm not sure whether you mean the Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts or the
VCH notes (whatever form they took).
I have just realised that the link I posted previously for the P-H MSS
brings up an error message. The information on them can be found by going to
the National Archives catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/), and then putting "PRO 66/3"
into the "Go to reference" box, and finally clicking on the "Full details"
tab. This does say that "Each volume is prefaced by a full index."
As for the VCH material, I will try to follow this up with the VCH, and if I
find out anything useful I'll post it here.
Chris Phillips
I have seen the reference to this publication before. Unfortunately, I
believe you need to see these manuscripts in situ. If you do indeed
follow this up, would you please advise us whether these manuscripts
have an index?
I'm not sure whether you mean the Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts or the
VCH notes (whatever form they took).
I have just realised that the link I posted previously for the P-H MSS
brings up an error message. The information on them can be found by going to
the National Archives catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/), and then putting "PRO 66/3"
into the "Go to reference" box, and finally clicking on the "Full details"
tab. This does say that "Each volume is prefaced by a full index."
As for the VCH material, I will try to follow this up with the VCH, and if I
find out anything useful I'll post it here.
Chris Phillips
-
Gjest
Re: Sir John Ferrers MP
In a message dated 2/23/06 9:09:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
<< It turns out Wedgwood did misread "24" as "34". Per the Warwickshire
IPM of Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth, taken 12 October 1498, "John
Ferrers, knight, aged 24 and more, is his cousin and next heir, viz.
son of John Ferrers, knight, his son." >>
Was it customary to refer to your grandson as your "cousin" ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
<< It turns out Wedgwood did misread "24" as "34". Per the Warwickshire
IPM of Sir Thomas Ferrers II of Tamworth, taken 12 October 1498, "John
Ferrers, knight, aged 24 and more, is his cousin and next heir, viz.
son of John Ferrers, knight, his son." >>
Was it customary to refer to your grandson as your "cousin" ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Paul Mackenzie
Re: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
Chris Phillips wrote:
Sorry, I meant the Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts
Thanks very much Chris. It would be interesting to see these indexes.
It would be great if these indexes were online. I had tried tracking
these manuscripts via the LDS but unfortunately they do not have them.
Regards Paul.
Paul Mackenzie wrote:
I have seen the reference to this publication before. Unfortunately, I
believe you need to see these manuscripts in situ. If you do indeed
follow this up, would you please advise us whether these manuscripts
have an index?
I'm not sure whether you mean the Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts or the
VCH notes (whatever form they took).
Sorry, I meant the Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts
I have just realised that the link I posted previously for the P-H MSS
brings up an error message. The information on them can be found by going to
the National Archives catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/), and then putting "PRO 66/3"
into the "Go to reference" box, and finally clicking on the "Full details"
tab. This does say that "Each volume is prefaced by a full index."
Thanks very much Chris. It would be interesting to see these indexes.
It would be great if these indexes were online. I had tried tracking
these manuscripts via the LDS but unfortunately they do not have them.
Regards Paul.
-
Gjest
Re: Rose ~ Addition to Mr. Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry
John~
Thanks. That source and others I've found mentioned I plan on following up
on as soon as I can spend some time at my local library. Right now I believe
it only a likely speculation that Rose (----------)
Sheppard-Tucker-Gerrard-Newton was one and the same with Rosamund Sturman. Rose's daughters Sarah
and Rose both used the name Rosamund in their families. Thomas Sturman
(Rosamund's father) and Thomas Gerrard (Rose's third known husband) both served in
the Maryland Assembly at the same time, were co-defendants in cases arising
from Ingle's Rebellion, and both removed to Westmoreland County, Virginia
because of Calvert's disaffection. These facts reveal a close association between
the families; that coupled with the use of the unusual moniker Rosamund, and
the fact that the Tuckers and Sturmans came from the same background
(Puritan mercantile families centered in the Parish of St. Dunstan in the East,
London) can help build at least a reasonable defense for identifying Rose
(-----------) Sheppard-Tucker-Gerrard-Newton as the same person as Rosamund Sturman.
Todd
Thanks. That source and others I've found mentioned I plan on following up
on as soon as I can spend some time at my local library. Right now I believe
it only a likely speculation that Rose (----------)
Sheppard-Tucker-Gerrard-Newton was one and the same with Rosamund Sturman. Rose's daughters Sarah
and Rose both used the name Rosamund in their families. Thomas Sturman
(Rosamund's father) and Thomas Gerrard (Rose's third known husband) both served in
the Maryland Assembly at the same time, were co-defendants in cases arising
from Ingle's Rebellion, and both removed to Westmoreland County, Virginia
because of Calvert's disaffection. These facts reveal a close association between
the families; that coupled with the use of the unusual moniker Rosamund, and
the fact that the Tuckers and Sturmans came from the same background
(Puritan mercantile families centered in the Parish of St. Dunstan in the East,
London) can help build at least a reasonable defense for identifying Rose
(-----------) Sheppard-Tucker-Gerrard-Newton as the same person as Rosamund Sturman.
Todd
-
kenneth jacob
Re: Plea Rolls in the National Archives - CP40
Paul Mackenzie wrote:
As far as I can remember, each Plantagenet Harrison volume has an
index. One really has to consult them in situ.
Kenneth Jacob
Chris Phillips wrote:
Paul Mackenzie wrote:
I have seen the reference to this publication before. Unfortunately, I
believe you need to see these manuscripts in situ. If you do indeed
follow this up, would you please advise us whether these manuscripts
have an index?
I'm not sure whether you mean the Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts or the
VCH notes (whatever form they took).
Sorry, I meant the Plantagenet-Harrison manuscripts
I have just realised that the link I posted previously for the P-H MSS
brings up an error message. The information on them can be found by going to
the National Archives catalogue
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/), and then putting "PRO 66/3"
into the "Go to reference" box, and finally clicking on the "Full details"
tab. This does say that "Each volume is prefaced by a full index."
Thanks very much Chris. It would be interesting to see these indexes.
It would be great if these indexes were online. I had tried tracking
these manuscripts via the LDS but unfortunately they do not have them.
Regards Paul.
As far as I can remember, each Plantagenet Harrison volume has an
index. One really has to consult them in situ.
Kenneth Jacob
-
Gjest
Re: Gateway Broken Again
In a message dated 2/24/2006 8:52:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
don.stone@verizon.net writes:
I have sent information about one of these non-gated posts to the person who
maintains the gateway at RootsWeb. I hope this will help him track down the
problem.
-- Don Stone, GEN-MED co-listowner
They seem to be coming through just now.
They always seem to come through in reverse order, or rather at least some
of them do, btw.
Will Johnson
don.stone@verizon.net writes:
I have sent information about one of these non-gated posts to the person who
maintains the gateway at RootsWeb. I hope this will help him track down the
problem.
-- Don Stone, GEN-MED co-listowner
They seem to be coming through just now.
They always seem to come through in reverse order, or rather at least some
of them do, btw.
Will Johnson
-
Hal Bradley
RE: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry
I have a notation of CP V: 72 for Richard's death date, though I do not know
what source was used to determine the date. Possibly, an i.p.m.? I do not
have CP at hand.
Hal Bradley
what source was used to determine the date. Possibly, an i.p.m.? I do not
have CP at hand.
Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: mardicar@yahoo.com [mailto:mardicar@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:57 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry
I have looked through all my sources including the article by Round.
Unfortunately, I have only secondary sources at this time. Many
reliable sources give a death date for Richard Engaine
(husband of Sara
de Chesney) of 1208/9. Wallop (not always reliable) goes so far as to
say he d. 23 Apr 1209 (no sources cited). Sanders p 23 says
Richard II
(as he calls him) d. 1216/7. This is the only source to give such a
late death date.
In VCH Cambridge v 10 pp 233-8 under Stow, later Dengaines, it says
that Stow belonged to a cadet branch of the Engaine family, seated at
Waresley (Hunts.) by 1200. Then it says that Robert
d'Engaine's mother
Avice held Stow by 1207. Is it common for a woman to hold property of
her husband's family before he died?
Mardi
Mardi
-
Gjest
Re: De la Haye of Shepreth Ancestry
On the chart within the article in CP, but not in the text, is the
information that Richard, who m. Sara de Chesney, d. 23 Apr 1209. No
reference. Sara was dead by Apr 1222 (also on chart). Richard and
Sara's grandson (son of Viel who d. 1248) was 30, 30 and more, or 35 in
1248, giving him a birthdate before 1218.
I don't see how Robert could possibly be son of this Richard if his
mother Avice was holding Stow in 1207 because Sarah would still be
alive.
Mardi
information that Richard, who m. Sara de Chesney, d. 23 Apr 1209. No
reference. Sara was dead by Apr 1222 (also on chart). Richard and
Sara's grandson (son of Viel who d. 1248) was 30, 30 and more, or 35 in
1248, giving him a birthdate before 1218.
I don't see how Robert could possibly be son of this Richard if his
mother Avice was holding Stow in 1207 because Sarah would still be
alive.
Mardi
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Anne Winthrop m. Henry Hoskins
"I wonder if there are any gentry lines behind this couple?"
Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins, of course, was technically of the gentry;
albeit so far with no traced ancient connections. Depending on Henry
Hoskins' origins. If he were possibly of the Hodgkinson family
originally of Preston, Lancs (several of whom went to Ireland, often
transmogrified into "Hoskins") he would be possibly a species of
mercantile/borough gentry - the Hodgkinsons being on record (linen
drapers, civic leaders, guild records) in Preston as early as about
1452. As to the hows, whys, and whens of the Hodgkinsons of Preston
"armigerous-ness", this remains to be established.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
Anne (Winthrop) Hoskins, of course, was technically of the gentry;
albeit so far with no traced ancient connections. Depending on Henry
Hoskins' origins. If he were possibly of the Hodgkinson family
originally of Preston, Lancs (several of whom went to Ireland, often
transmogrified into "Hoskins") he would be possibly a species of
mercantile/borough gentry - the Hodgkinsons being on record (linen
drapers, civic leaders, guild records) in Preston as early as about
1452. As to the hows, whys, and whens of the Hodgkinsons of Preston
"armigerous-ness", this remains to be established.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Bob Turcott
Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new
To all
Jacques de Meherenc, sgr du Quesnay
m. 1527 Marie Gousseaume is an ancestral unlcle! I have been in contact with
the
lords of Manoir du Quesnay. Perhaps this could be at least one of the
Meherenc
estates, further confirmation is needed, below is an except of my
communication.
I ask everyone in this forum to let me know if they believe my judgement on
this matter
is on the right track..
Hello,
Only proof we have available about the Manoir du Quesnay first owner, at the
XVth century, is that "Le Seigneur du Quesnay" is buried with is lady in a
small chapel next to our place. His stone coffin ("gisant") is sculptured,
then you can see him lying in his armour and it is written in the stone "Le
seigneur du Quesnay" .
I cannot trace "les londes" at Trévières . Far to my knowledge their is no
château or manoir named les londes and still existing.
Hope this will be of any help in your research about your ancestor.
Seen your website, thank you, the manoir de Montmireil looks beautiful.
Kind regards,
Jacques Fourcade
Manoir du Quesnay
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/
Jacques de Meherenc, sgr du Quesnay
m. 1527 Marie Gousseaume is an ancestral unlcle! I have been in contact with
the
lords of Manoir du Quesnay. Perhaps this could be at least one of the
Meherenc
estates, further confirmation is needed, below is an except of my
communication.
I ask everyone in this forum to let me know if they believe my judgement on
this matter
is on the right track..
Hello,
Only proof we have available about the Manoir du Quesnay first owner, at the
XVth century, is that "Le Seigneur du Quesnay" is buried with is lady in a
small chapel next to our place. His stone coffin ("gisant") is sculptured,
then you can see him lying in his armour and it is written in the stone "Le
seigneur du Quesnay" .
I cannot trace "les londes" at Trévières . Far to my knowledge their is no
château or manoir named les londes and still existing.
Hope this will be of any help in your research about your ancestor.
Seen your website, thank you, the manoir de Montmireil looks beautiful.
Kind regards,
Jacques Fourcade
Manoir du Quesnay
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Updates to website
I wrote:
I have now added a little facility that allows place names in the published
VCH volumes to be searched for, to supplement the alphabetical lists of
contents on my website. Wildcards can be used to allow for spelling
variations.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/vch/search.php
Chris Phillips
The contents list and place-name index to the published Victoria County
History volumes have been extended to include the sections on religious
houses, schools and universities, and forests, as well as the
topographical
sections:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/vch/index.shtml
I have now added a little facility that allows place names in the published
VCH volumes to be searched for, to supplement the alphabetical lists of
contents on my website. Wildcards can be used to allow for spelling
variations.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/vch/search.php
Chris Phillips
-
Gjest
Re: Mathilde Turenne or Mathilde Mayenne?
Dear Jean and others,
I can`t say exactly where the lordship of
Mayenne lay but in contemporary times Mayenne is in the same area as Normandy
and Brittany as I just discovered websites about properties for sale there.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
I can`t say exactly where the lordship of
Mayenne lay but in contemporary times Mayenne is in the same area as Normandy
and Brittany as I just discovered websites about properties for sale there.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
charlotte smith
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
6. Richard Cheyne, of Shurland (in Eastchurch), Kent, married Margaret
Cralle.
this Margaret Cralle is the daughter of Margery Peplesham and Robert Cralle and 1/2 sister of alice Batisford who married Wm Echyngham
charlotte c smith
Cralle.
this Margaret Cralle is the daughter of Margery Peplesham and Robert Cralle and 1/2 sister of alice Batisford who married Wm Echyngham
charlotte c smith
-
Gjest
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
In a message dated 2/26/06 2:03:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< 12. Edmund Lee, Esq., of Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, died 1599,
married Dorothy Browne. >>
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Butt", pg 133-6
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
calls this husband Edward instead of Edmund.
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< 12. Edmund Lee, Esq., of Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire, died 1599,
married Dorothy Browne. >>
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Butt", pg 133-6
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
calls this husband Edward instead of Edmund.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
In a message dated 2/26/06 2:48:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< His
brothers-in-law included Francis Browne of Henley Park, George Browne
of Shefford, the younger Francis Englefield and the Count of Feria,
formerly Philip II's representative in England. The martyred Carthusian
monk Sebastian Newdigate, an uncle of Dame Cecily Stonor, was the
Sheriff's great uncle. >>
Gomez Suarez, the Count of Feria was married to Robert's sister Jane
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< His
brothers-in-law included Francis Browne of Henley Park, George Browne
of Shefford, the younger Francis Englefield and the Count of Feria,
formerly Philip II's representative in England. The martyred Carthusian
monk Sebastian Newdigate, an uncle of Dame Cecily Stonor, was the
Sheriff's great uncle. >>
Gomez Suarez, the Count of Feria was married to Robert's sister Jane
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
In a message dated 2/26/06 2:48:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< The Robert Dormer named in this material below was the brother
of Mary (Dormer) Browne, whose daughter, Dorothy Browne, married Edmund
Lee, Esq., son and heir of Avice (Ashfield) Lee. >>
Robert Dormer and Mary (Dormer) Browne are actually related in two ways.
Not only is Mary the sister of Robert as you pointed out, but also :
1) Mary married Anthony Browne son of Anthony Browne and Jane Radcliffe
2) Robert married Elizabeth Browne dau of this same Anthony Browne by his
wife Magdalen Dacre
Thus Anthony Browne , husband of Mary, and Elizabeth Browne, wife of Robert
were half-siblings.
Very cozy.
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< The Robert Dormer named in this material below was the brother
of Mary (Dormer) Browne, whose daughter, Dorothy Browne, married Edmund
Lee, Esq., son and heir of Avice (Ashfield) Lee. >>
Robert Dormer and Mary (Dormer) Browne are actually related in two ways.
Not only is Mary the sister of Robert as you pointed out, but also :
1) Mary married Anthony Browne son of Anthony Browne and Jane Radcliffe
2) Robert married Elizabeth Browne dau of this same Anthony Browne by his
wife Magdalen Dacre
Thus Anthony Browne , husband of Mary, and Elizabeth Browne, wife of Robert
were half-siblings.
Very cozy.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Rose Knyvet, wife of Michael Beresford, Esq.
In a message dated 2/27/06 4:49:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Norfolk Record Office: Knyvett-Wilson Family Collection, Catalogue Ref.
KNY 427 371 x 9-agreement in support of marriage settlement dated
1538 between John son of Edmund and Jane Knyvett and Agnes his wife
daughter of Sir John Harcourt. >>
Leo has specifically that their contract (or similar marriage document) was
dated 14 Feb 1537
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< Norfolk Record Office: Knyvett-Wilson Family Collection, Catalogue Ref.
KNY 427 371 x 9-agreement in support of marriage settlement dated
1538 between John son of Edmund and Jane Knyvett and Agnes his wife
daughter of Sir John Harcourt. >>
Leo has specifically that their contract (or similar marriage document) was
dated 14 Feb 1537
Will Johnson
-
Tompkins, M.L.
RE: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Can anyone identity the localities, East-Hyrst and West-Hyrst, which
are mentioned in John de Courtenay's charter to the Knights Templar
which is cited by Dugdale's Baronage of England?
<<I would make a guess this refers to what is now known as
Hurstpierpoint in Sussex, which has Templar connections.
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/SSX/ ... /index.php
Not much historical info there, but it was (and is) known as Hurst. The
Pierpoint refers to the Norman family who held it. Whether there was
ever an east and west Hurst, I do not know.
http://www.southernlife.org.uk/sussex/h ... rpoint.htm
But there may be other contenders for your locations.>>
The English Place-name Society's volume for Sussex confirms that
Hurstpierpoint was occasionally referred to as West Hurst in the
medieval period (they give an example of Westherst in a 1261 Assize
Roll) - in distinction to Hurstmonceux, which was Esthurst in 1302 and
1340. On the other hand Hurstpierpoint and Hurstmonceux are some 24
miles apart, and Douglas' reference rather suggests to me that the
Courtenays' and the Templars' holdings were in two adjacent places. So
I think the Hursts in question were probably somewhere else (there are
many other places in England called Hurst, in various spellings and
forms, not just parishes but also smaller places).
Matt Tompkins
-
Tompkins, M.L.
RE: Price of sheep in 1625 ?
Anyone know the price of sheep in 1625? An ancestor left an estate,
which included £ 250 for sheep and lambs, this strikes me as being
rather a lot of sheep for a Wiltshire farm.
<<There's an awful lot of hills with chalky soil on them and little or no water nearby which were no use for cultivation in those times. I know a farmer whose flock gets up to 2,000 sheep after lambing on 3 or 400 acres in Wiltshire. The last count I heard of sheep in England was 40 million so I can easily imagine some large flocks in late medieval times.>>
Tim is absolutely right - the chalk downs which run across Dorset, Wilts, Hants and Berks were a classic sheep-corn region. By this date the vast monastic flocks which had covered them in the late medieval period had disappeared, but there were still some very big flocks in the area. The Agrarian History of England and Wales vol IV 1500-1640 gives the example of a 1639 farmer's probate inventory from the region listing 27 cattle, 12 horses, 25 pigs and 843 sheep.
Matt Tompkins
-
Tompkins, M.L.
RE: Price of sheep in 1625 ?
<<The probate inventory of one of my Leicestershire ancestors who died in 1557 values his seven "shyppe yong and olde" at £1 or about 3/- each. The inventory of his great great great grandson who died in 1749 includes forty sheep valued at £12 or 6/- each. So possibly the price per sheep in 1625 was around 4/- or 5/-.>>
Probably quite a bit more than 4s or 5s - there was rampant inflation in England in the mid- and late sixteenth century, which increased the average price of a sheep four- or five-fold between about 1530 and 1630 (per the Statistical Tables in the Agrarian History of England and Wales IV 1500-1640). So all other factors affecting price being equal (which they never were, of course) the price of those Leicestershire sheep could have been substantially higher in 1625.
But there were so many variables affecting the price of an animal, which could fluctuate wildly even within the space of a few months or between regions, that it's not really possible to make deductions from just one or two examples.
Matt Tompkins
Probably quite a bit more than 4s or 5s - there was rampant inflation in England in the mid- and late sixteenth century, which increased the average price of a sheep four- or five-fold between about 1530 and 1630 (per the Statistical Tables in the Agrarian History of England and Wales IV 1500-1640). So all other factors affecting price being equal (which they never were, of course) the price of those Leicestershire sheep could have been substantially higher in 1625.
But there were so many variables affecting the price of an animal, which could fluctuate wildly even within the space of a few months or between regions, that it's not really possible to make deductions from just one or two examples.
Matt Tompkins
-
Tompkins, M.L.
RE: Price of sheep in 1625 ?
<<Anyone know the price of sheep in 1625? An ancestor left an estate, which included £ 250 for sheep and lambs, this strikes me as being rather a lot of sheep for a Wiltshire farm. Mutton appears to have been about 1/- a quarter about then.>>
According to the statistical data at the back of the Agrarian History of England and Wales, IV 1500-1640 (probably a rather blunt instrument) the average price of a sheep in England in 1629 was:
a lamb: 6s 6d
a wether: 14s
unspec. sheep: 10s 6d
(average: 10s 2d)
Which suggests that this Wiltshire ancestor had a flock of several hundred sheep (just under 500 if the £250 valuation is divided by the 10s 2d avearge price - but it wouldn't have been that simple).
Throughout the second half of the 15C these prices had been fluctuating around:
a lamb: 1s 4d
a wether: 1s 8d
unspec. sheep: 1s 9d
(average: 1s 8d)
Which gives an idea of the extent of the 16C inflation.
Having supplied that data I have to say that it doesn't accord with the values given for sheep in the Great Horwood court rolls between 1450 and 1600, or in those few 16C probate inventories I have from Great and Little Horwood, which consistently award much lower values. Though since the court roll valuations were mostly of heriots and strays, in both cases producing amounts payable to the lord of the manor, they may have been deliberate undervalues, and the same may have been true of the inventory valuations (which determined the cost of probate). The Agrarian History data, on the other hand, was based on prices actually paid on the sale or purchase of animals, I believe.
Matt Tompkins
According to the statistical data at the back of the Agrarian History of England and Wales, IV 1500-1640 (probably a rather blunt instrument) the average price of a sheep in England in 1629 was:
a lamb: 6s 6d
a wether: 14s
unspec. sheep: 10s 6d
(average: 10s 2d)
Which suggests that this Wiltshire ancestor had a flock of several hundred sheep (just under 500 if the £250 valuation is divided by the 10s 2d avearge price - but it wouldn't have been that simple).
Throughout the second half of the 15C these prices had been fluctuating around:
a lamb: 1s 4d
a wether: 1s 8d
unspec. sheep: 1s 9d
(average: 1s 8d)
Which gives an idea of the extent of the 16C inflation.
Having supplied that data I have to say that it doesn't accord with the values given for sheep in the Great Horwood court rolls between 1450 and 1600, or in those few 16C probate inventories I have from Great and Little Horwood, which consistently award much lower values. Though since the court roll valuations were mostly of heriots and strays, in both cases producing amounts payable to the lord of the manor, they may have been deliberate undervalues, and the same may have been true of the inventory valuations (which determined the cost of probate). The Agrarian History data, on the other hand, was based on prices actually paid on the sale or purchase of animals, I believe.
Matt Tompkins
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Tuckfield family of Raddon Court
This is of particular interest to me. One of my "dead end" (meaning,
haven't yet attempted to research) ancestors is a certain GRACE
TUCKFIELD (born say 1660, parentage unknown) who was married to WILLIAM
HAMLIN / HAMLEY on 24 April 1681 at Moretonhampstead, Devon (about 12-15
miles SE of Thoverton, where is located Raddon Court.)
Perhaps of interest http://www.wissensdrang.com/stabb229.htm
THORVERTON. St. Thomas à Becket. The church [plate 231a] consists of
chancel, nave, north and south aisles, north transept, and west tower
with eight bells; the two treble bells were added to the peal in 1894 in
memory of Arthur Felix Risdon, vicar's warden, who died on January 23rd
1894.
There are some old tombstones in the floor of the chancel: Elizabeth
Richards, daughter of Ralph Richards, October 20th 1643; Elizabeth,
daughter of Roger Tuckfield, and wife of Richard Mallock of Axmouth,
September 17th 1682; Roger Tuckfield, January 20th 1683; Mary, wife of
Roger Tuckfield of Raddon Court, January 22nd 1677; and Walter
Tuckfield, son, February 19th 1668; and Nicholas Thomas, November 26th
1668; in the aisles there are remains of others of about the same date.
The only monument, a mural one on the south side of the chancel, bears
the following inscription:*
In Memoriam
Rogeri Tuckfield De Raddon Court
Armigeri et Marie Uxoris sui Deo
Illa 22 Januarii 1677 ætat 72
Illa 22 Januarii 1683 ætat 78
In meliorem Transmigrarunt
Hic etiam Dormit Johannes Rogeri
Filii Natu Maximi et de Raddon
Court Armigeri Primogenitus Qui
Trimestris Pr*propera Morte Rap
Tus Tutissimas in Tumulo Invenit
Cunas 15 Julii 1681.
I would be most interested in learning more perhaps of relevance to my
so far parentally-undiscovered ancestress Grace (Tuckfield) Hamlin /
Hamley.
Thanks.
Tony Hoskins
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
haven't yet attempted to research) ancestors is a certain GRACE
TUCKFIELD (born say 1660, parentage unknown) who was married to WILLIAM
HAMLIN / HAMLEY on 24 April 1681 at Moretonhampstead, Devon (about 12-15
miles SE of Thoverton, where is located Raddon Court.)
Perhaps of interest http://www.wissensdrang.com/stabb229.htm
THORVERTON. St. Thomas à Becket. The church [plate 231a] consists of
chancel, nave, north and south aisles, north transept, and west tower
with eight bells; the two treble bells were added to the peal in 1894 in
memory of Arthur Felix Risdon, vicar's warden, who died on January 23rd
1894.
There are some old tombstones in the floor of the chancel: Elizabeth
Richards, daughter of Ralph Richards, October 20th 1643; Elizabeth,
daughter of Roger Tuckfield, and wife of Richard Mallock of Axmouth,
September 17th 1682; Roger Tuckfield, January 20th 1683; Mary, wife of
Roger Tuckfield of Raddon Court, January 22nd 1677; and Walter
Tuckfield, son, February 19th 1668; and Nicholas Thomas, November 26th
1668; in the aisles there are remains of others of about the same date.
The only monument, a mural one on the south side of the chancel, bears
the following inscription:*
In Memoriam
Rogeri Tuckfield De Raddon Court
Armigeri et Marie Uxoris sui Deo
Illa 22 Januarii 1677 ætat 72
Illa 22 Januarii 1683 ætat 78
In meliorem Transmigrarunt
Hic etiam Dormit Johannes Rogeri
Filii Natu Maximi et de Raddon
Court Armigeri Primogenitus Qui
Trimestris Pr*propera Morte Rap
Tus Tutissimas in Tumulo Invenit
Cunas 15 Julii 1681.
I would be most interested in learning more perhaps of relevance to my
so far parentally-undiscovered ancestress Grace (Tuckfield) Hamlin /
Hamley.
Thanks.
Tony Hoskins
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Tuckfield family of Raddon Court
Perhaps of interest:
Tuckfield's Bill.
Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for vesting in Roger
Tuckfield Esquire several Lands purchased for him by Sir William Davye
Baronet, deceased."
Upon the First Reading of the Bill, intituled, "An Act for vesting in
Roger Tuckfield Esquire several Lands purchased for him by Sir William
Davye Baronet, deceased."
It is Ordered, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament
assembled, That the Consideration of the said Bill shall be, and is
hereby, referred to Mr. Baron Price and Mr. Justice Dormer; who are
forthwith to summon all Parties that are to be concerned therein; and,
after hearing them, and perusing a Copy of the Bill, attested by the
Clerk of the Parliaments, are to report to the House the State of the
Case, with their Opinion thereupon, under their Hands.
From: 'House of Lords Journal Volume 18: 16 February 1708', Journal of
the House of Lords: volume 18: 1705-1709 (1802), pp. 463-64. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=29629. Date
accessed: 28 February 2006.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
Tuckfield's Bill.
Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for vesting in Roger
Tuckfield Esquire several Lands purchased for him by Sir William Davye
Baronet, deceased."
Upon the First Reading of the Bill, intituled, "An Act for vesting in
Roger Tuckfield Esquire several Lands purchased for him by Sir William
Davye Baronet, deceased."
It is Ordered, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament
assembled, That the Consideration of the said Bill shall be, and is
hereby, referred to Mr. Baron Price and Mr. Justice Dormer; who are
forthwith to summon all Parties that are to be concerned therein; and,
after hearing them, and perusing a Copy of the Bill, attested by the
Clerk of the Parliaments, are to report to the House the State of the
Case, with their Opinion thereupon, under their Hands.
From: 'House of Lords Journal Volume 18: 16 February 1708', Journal of
the House of Lords: volume 18: 1705-1709 (1802), pp. 463-64. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=29629. Date
accessed: 28 February 2006.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
Gjest
Re: Rose Knevitt or Knyvett
In a message dated 2/28/06 1:24:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< I could have placed this information on Genealogics before, and then it
would have shown up on the update of 10 February, but Paul asked me to hold off
for a moment. Mainly because there are still too many details about Rose and
her parents missing. When was Rose born and when did she die? The same applies
to her husband Michael Beresford. Would anyone know? >>
I have your website as a source for a marriage contract (or similar document)
between John Knyvett of Plumstead and his wife or about-to-be wife Agnes
Harcourt dated 14 Feb 1537. Would anyone know if this shouldn't be stated 14 Feb
1536/7 ?
It appears you're now saying that George Beresford, aged 44 in 1608, could
not be a son of Rose Knyvett, but rather must be a son of Michael's from a
previous marriage. Removing this removes the upper limit of Rose (set at 1541) and
allows her to be a child bride at her marriage to Michael between 1560 and
1563
The only other limit I have on her age is that her father died between 1551
and 1556
Who was Michael's first wife?
Thanks
Will Johnson
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< I could have placed this information on Genealogics before, and then it
would have shown up on the update of 10 February, but Paul asked me to hold off
for a moment. Mainly because there are still too many details about Rose and
her parents missing. When was Rose born and when did she die? The same applies
to her husband Michael Beresford. Would anyone know? >>
I have your website as a source for a marriage contract (or similar document)
between John Knyvett of Plumstead and his wife or about-to-be wife Agnes
Harcourt dated 14 Feb 1537. Would anyone know if this shouldn't be stated 14 Feb
1536/7 ?
It appears you're now saying that George Beresford, aged 44 in 1608, could
not be a son of Rose Knyvett, but rather must be a son of Michael's from a
previous marriage. Removing this removes the upper limit of Rose (set at 1541) and
allows her to be a child bride at her marriage to Michael between 1560 and
1563
The only other limit I have on her age is that her father died between 1551
and 1556
Who was Michael's first wife?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Leo van de Pas
Rose Knyvett's origins was Re: Rose Knevitt or Knyvett
Dear Will,
I do not know of a son George, I mentioned only Tristram and Cornelius.
Rose Knyvett's father, John Knyvett, of Plumsted, who predeceased his
father, had a sister named Rose who married Oliver Reymes. This Rose is in
Genealogics.
Rose Knyvett, wife of Michael Beresford, has some very interesting
ancestors. She is a descendant of Sir John Hawkwood and King Edward III. She
has at least 45 lines to Geoffrey of Anjou of Plantagenet fame and at least
111 lines to William the Conqueror.
In her ancestor list we find King Edward I under the numbers 1296, 1452,
1466, 2610, 3246, 6574 and 7598.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: Rose Knevitt or Knyvett
I do not know of a son George, I mentioned only Tristram and Cornelius.
Rose Knyvett's father, John Knyvett, of Plumsted, who predeceased his
father, had a sister named Rose who married Oliver Reymes. This Rose is in
Genealogics.
Rose Knyvett, wife of Michael Beresford, has some very interesting
ancestors. She is a descendant of Sir John Hawkwood and King Edward III. She
has at least 45 lines to Geoffrey of Anjou of Plantagenet fame and at least
111 lines to William the Conqueror.
In her ancestor list we find King Edward I under the numbers 1296, 1452,
1466, 2610, 3246, 6574 and 7598.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: Rose Knevitt or Knyvett
In a message dated 2/28/06 1:24:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
I could have placed this information on Genealogics before, and then it
would have shown up on the update of 10 February, but Paul asked me to
hold off
for a moment. Mainly because there are still too many details about Rose
and
her parents missing. When was Rose born and when did she die? The same
applies
to her husband Michael Beresford. Would anyone know?
I have your website as a source for a marriage contract (or similar
document)
between John Knyvett of Plumstead and his wife or about-to-be wife Agnes
Harcourt dated 14 Feb 1537. Would anyone know if this shouldn't be stated
14 Feb
1536/7 ?
It appears you're now saying that George Beresford, aged 44 in 1608, could
not be a son of Rose Knyvett, but rather must be a son of Michael's from a
previous marriage. Removing this removes the upper limit of Rose (set at
1541) and
allows her to be a child bride at her marriage to Michael between 1560 and
1563
The only other limit I have on her age is that her father died between
1551
and 1556
Who was Michael's first wife?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Rose Knyvett's origins was Re: Rose Knevitt or Knyvett
In a message dated 2/28/06 1:03:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Rose Knyvett's father, John Knyvett, of Plumsted, who predeceased his
father, had a sister named Rose who married Oliver Reymes. This Rose is in
Genealogics. >>
I don't have that.
I have that her father John died 1551/6 and his father was Edmund Knyvett of
Ashwellthorpe who died between 1 Apr 1539 and 1 May 1540 and had married Jane
Bourchier. Is that in error?
Will Johnson
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Rose Knyvett's father, John Knyvett, of Plumsted, who predeceased his
father, had a sister named Rose who married Oliver Reymes. This Rose is in
Genealogics. >>
I don't have that.
I have that her father John died 1551/6 and his father was Edmund Knyvett of
Ashwellthorpe who died between 1 Apr 1539 and 1 May 1540 and had married Jane
Bourchier. Is that in error?
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
In a message dated 2/28/06 2:04:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
<< 1616. Dorothy, daughter of sir John Temple. Oct. 17. >>
And did she then marry her step-brother ?
I have him as "John Temple of the Inner Temple d 16 Aug 1687 age 77 at
Parvenham" (Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Brooks", pg 156-159)
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Gracy", pg 395-7 calls his father
Thomas /Alston/ of Gedding Hall, Polstead, Suffolk
Which does sound an awful lot like the people you've just described.
Will Johnson
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
<< 1616. Dorothy, daughter of sir John Temple. Oct. 17. >>
And did she then marry her step-brother ?
I have him as "John Temple of the Inner Temple d 16 Aug 1687 age 77 at
Parvenham" (Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Brooks", pg 156-159)
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Gracy", pg 395-7 calls his father
Thomas /Alston/ of Gedding Hall, Polstead, Suffolk
Which does sound an awful lot like the people you've just described.
Will Johnson
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
I have him as "John Temple of the Inner Temple d 16 Aug 1687 age 77 at
Parvenham" (Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Brooks", pg
156-159)
John Temple or john Alston?
I think this Dorothy is supposed to have married her step-brother ...
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Yup, ...
The extracted IGI for Odell, Beds., shows:
John Alston to Dorothy Temple, 4 Jan. 1634
The extracted IGI for Odell, Beds., shows:
John Alston to Dorothy Temple, 4 Jan. 1634
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Sir John Temple's second marriage, to widow Frances Alston, occurred 12
May 1626 at Polstead, Suffolk (extracted marriage in the IGI, batch #
M063022, John Temple to 'Francis' Alston).
May 1626 at Polstead, Suffolk (extracted marriage in the IGI, batch #
M063022, John Temple to 'Francis' Alston).
-
Gjest
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
Dear John, Douglas and others,
Why couldn`t John Nelson have
been in America by 1669 ? In this age most young men recieved the bulk of
their educations by being apprenticed to some tradesman or other usually by the
age of thirteen. From your research into John Nelson, He would have been
approximately sixteen years of age. If He had been in fact bound to serve a
tradesman for seven years and his Master had gone to America, it is not unlikely that
He also would have gone.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
Why couldn`t John Nelson have
been in America by 1669 ? In this age most young men recieved the bulk of
their educations by being apprenticed to some tradesman or other usually by the
age of thirteen. From your research into John Nelson, He would have been
approximately sixteen years of age. If He had been in fact bound to serve a
tradesman for seven years and his Master had gone to America, it is not unlikely that
He also would have gone.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
-
Tompkins, M.L.
RE: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
<<Let us not overlook "Hirst". There are several, including Temple
Hirst which is 0.6 miles from Hirst Courtney, West Riding, Yorkshire.
CE Wood>>
I think this must be the answer - the English Place-name Society's
Yorkshire series (vol iv, pp 21, 22) states that Temple Hirst was called
West Hyrst in a 1235 Foot of Fine, in which Hirst Courtney was called
Est Hyrst. It also mentions (as is evident from the place-names) that
the Templars and Courtenays had lands in, respectively, Temple Hirst
from 1155 and Hirst Courtney from at least 1235.
I imagine the 1235 Foot of Fine quoted by the EPNS volume is the 19 H.3
exchange mentioned by Dugdale and quoted by Douglas.
Matt Tompkins
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Hirst which is 0.6 miles from Hirst Courtney, West Riding, Yorkshire.
CE Wood>>
I think this must be the answer - the English Place-name Society's
Yorkshire series (vol iv, pp 21, 22) states that Temple Hirst was called
West Hyrst in a 1235 Foot of Fine, in which Hirst Courtney was called
Est Hyrst. It also mentions (as is evident from the place-names) that
the Templars and Courtenays had lands in, respectively, Temple Hirst
from 1155 and Hirst Courtney from at least 1235.
I imagine the 1235 Foot of Fine quoted by the EPNS volume is the 19 H.3
exchange mentioned by Dugdale and quoted by Douglas.
Matt Tompkins
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Can anyone identity the localities, East-Hyrst and West-Hyrst, which
are mentioned in John de Courtenay's charter to the Knights Templar
which is cited by Dugdale's Baronage of England?
Also, I should note that this charter being dated 1234-1235 makes it
certain now that John de Courtenay was born much earlier than 1224,
which birthdate is alleged in various undocumented sources.
Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, it appears that Sir John de
Courtenay (died 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, had yet another wife,
Emme, as indicated by the information below cited by William
Dugdale.
I assume Emme was Sir John de Courtenay's first wife, followed by
Maud(_____) de Mowbray (died c.1240), and then by Isabel de Vere.
The 1st wife, Emme, is also mentioned in the pedigree of the
Courtenay family found in Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 1
(1847):
471-472.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + +
Source: William Dugdale, Baronage of England 2 (1676): 636-637 (sub
Courtenay).
"Touching his [John de Courtenay's] works of Piety, all that I have
seen, is, That in 19 H. 3 [i.e., 1234-1235] for the health of his
Soul, and the Soul of Emme his wife, and all his Ancestors Souls, he
gave to the Knights-Templar all his lands in East-Hyrst, viz. Lx
acres; and quitted unto them all his Right of Common which he had in
their Woods at West-Hyrst (citing Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 2. 556
b. n. 10 & 557 a. n. 10)." END OF QUOTE.
-
John Brandon
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
approximately sixteen years of age. If He had been in fact bound to serve a
tradesman for seven years and his Master had gone to America, it is not unlikely that
He also would have gone.
I don't know that he would have been the sort to be "bound to serve a
tradesman for seven years" (nephew of Sir Thomas Temple, you know), but
I _suppose_ he could have been in America with his uncle at the time
....
I'm still waiting for the book to be re-shelved.
One short addition to the children of Sir John and Dorothy (Lee)
Temple:
Burke's _Complete Peerage_ shows their daughter Hester married to
Edward Pascal, which may be true, as there was a Pascal Nelson in the
American family ...
http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/do ... OSHOW=1065
-
Gjest
Re: who's the real fater of Eustace I, Comte de Boulogne?
In a message dated 2/28/2006 11:49:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,
volucris@chello.nl writes:
Google SGM-search
What is a "Google SGM" search ?
I've never heard of that before.
Will Johnson
volucris@chello.nl writes:
Google SGM-search
What is a "Google SGM" search ?
I've never heard of that before.
Will Johnson
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: who's the real fater of Eustace I, Comte de Boulogne?
In message of 1 Mar, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval
The newsgroup FAQ at http://users.erols.com/wrei/faqs/medieval.html also
gives the Rootsweb equivalent:
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... N-MEDIEVAL
Happy searching!
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
In a message dated 2/28/2006 11:49:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,
volucris@chello.nl writes:
Google SGM-search
What is a "Google SGM" search ?
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval
The newsgroup FAQ at http://users.erols.com/wrei/faqs/medieval.html also
gives the Rootsweb equivalent:
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... N-MEDIEVAL
Happy searching!
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: C.P. Addition: 1st Wife for John de Courtenay (died 1274
Dear Matt ~
Thank you for your good post. Thanks also to Carolyn, Renia, and Kevan
who posted responses. All much appreciated.
I believe an abstract of the 1235 Yorkshire fine involving Hirst
Courtney and Temple Hirst, Yorkshire cited by EPNS is in print.
Best always. Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Tompkins, M.L." wrote:
Thank you for your good post. Thanks also to Carolyn, Renia, and Kevan
who posted responses. All much appreciated.
I believe an abstract of the 1235 Yorkshire fine involving Hirst
Courtney and Temple Hirst, Yorkshire cited by EPNS is in print.
Best always. Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
"Tompkins, M.L." wrote:
Let us not overlook "Hirst". There are several, including Temple
Hirst which is 0.6 miles from Hirst Courtney, West Riding, Yorkshire.
CE Wood
I think this must be the answer - the English Place-name Society's
Yorkshire series (vol iv, pp 21, 22) states that Temple Hirst was called
West Hyrst in a 1235 Foot of Fine, in which Hirst Courtney was called
Est Hyrst. It also mentions (as is evident from the place-names) that
the Templars and Courtenays had lands in, respectively, Temple Hirst
from 1155 and Hirst Courtney from at least 1235.
I imagine the 1235 Foot of Fine quoted by the EPNS volume is the 19 H.3
exchange mentioned by Dugdale and quoted by Douglas.
Matt Tompkins
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
Can anyone identity the localities, East-Hyrst and West-Hyrst, which
are mentioned in John de Courtenay's charter to the Knights Templar
which is cited by Dugdale's Baronage of England?
Also, I should note that this charter being dated 1234-1235 makes it
certain now that John de Courtenay was born much earlier than 1224,
which birthdate is alleged in various undocumented sources.
Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post, it appears that Sir John de
Courtenay (died 1274), of Okehampton, Devon, had yet another wife,
Emme, as indicated by the information below cited by William
Dugdale.
I assume Emme was Sir John de Courtenay's first wife, followed by
Maud(_____) de Mowbray (died c.1240), and then by Isabel de Vere.
The 1st wife, Emme, is also mentioned in the pedigree of the
Courtenay family found in Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 1
(1847):
471-472.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + +
Source: William Dugdale, Baronage of England 2 (1676): 636-637 (sub
Courtenay).
"Touching his [John de Courtenay's] works of Piety, all that I have
seen, is, That in 19 H. 3 [i.e., 1234-1235] for the health of his
Soul, and the Soul of Emme his wife, and all his Ancestors Souls, he
gave to the Knights-Templar all his lands in East-Hyrst, viz. Lx
acres; and quitted unto them all his Right of Common which he had in
their Woods at West-Hyrst (citing Monasticon Anglicanum, vol. 2. 556
b. n. 10 & 557 a. n. 10)." END OF QUOTE.
-
David Teague
Greetings of the day (1 March 2006)
For those of us who know they have Welsh ancestry,
"Dydd gwyl Dewi hapus!"
Or, if you prefer the English,
"Happy St. David's Day!"
David Teague
"Dydd gwyl Dewi hapus!"
Or, if you prefer the English,
"Happy St. David's Day!"
David Teague
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Greetings of the day (1 March 2006)
"Dydd gwyl Dewi hapus!"
Or, if you prefer the English,
"Happy St. David's Day!"
David Teague
---
Bore da, Dewi! Diolch!
Dymuniadau gorau,
Tony Hoskins
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
Or, if you prefer the English,
"Happy St. David's Day!"
David Teague
---
Bore da, Dewi! Diolch!
Dymuniadau gorau,
Tony Hoskins
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
kelly 6424
Re: Greetings of the day (1 March 2006)
Just bought a bunch of bright yellow daffodils for St. David's, as I do
every year - in memory of my dearest friend gone these twenty years..a
fellow medievalist..J.F.
Kelly
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/
every year - in memory of my dearest friend gone these twenty years..a
fellow medievalist..J.F.
Kelly
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/
-
Gjest
Re: Small RPA / MCA addition: Identity of the father of Robe
In a message dated 3/1/06 1:34:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< By a previous marriage, William Ascue was the father of Sir George
Ascue (or Ayscough), Admiral of England. >>
I have located Sir George Ayscue's biography in the old DNB but they give
very slight genealogical information. Naming his father William as Gentlemen of
the Privy Chamber, without naming the wife. Furthermore they mention no
other relations whatsoever, no wife, no children, no siblings, no step-mother...
They do add that he died probably in 1671 or 72 but "no record of his death
survives". And they also add that he was already a captain of a ship
"Expedition" in 1646.
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< By a previous marriage, William Ascue was the father of Sir George
Ascue (or Ayscough), Admiral of England. >>
I have located Sir George Ayscue's biography in the old DNB but they give
very slight genealogical information. Naming his father William as Gentlemen of
the Privy Chamber, without naming the wife. Furthermore they mention no
other relations whatsoever, no wife, no children, no siblings, no step-mother...
They do add that he died probably in 1671 or 72 but "no record of his death
survives". And they also add that he was already a captain of a ship
"Expedition" in 1646.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Descent of Richard Fenwick (d. 1714) of Maryland from Ed
In a message dated 3/1/06 3:33:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ToddWhitesides@aol.com writes:
<< 12. Richard Eltonhead, Gent., of Eltonhead (in Sutton), Lancashire
b. (chr.) 6 Jan. 1580/1 Church of St. Mary, Prescot, Lancashire
d. intestate between 23 Sep. and 16 Dec. 1664 Eltonhead (in Sutton),
Lancashire
bur. Church of St. Mary, Prescot, Lancashire
m. by 1608 to Anne Sutton, daughter of Edward Sutton, Gent., of Rushton
Spencer, Staffordshire and Knowsley (in Huyton), Lancashire, deputy steward
of
Prescot Manor by his wife Anne Stanley. >>
Would somebody have the parents and grandparents of this Anne Stanley?
Thanks
Will Johnson
ToddWhitesides@aol.com writes:
<< 12. Richard Eltonhead, Gent., of Eltonhead (in Sutton), Lancashire
b. (chr.) 6 Jan. 1580/1 Church of St. Mary, Prescot, Lancashire
d. intestate between 23 Sep. and 16 Dec. 1664 Eltonhead (in Sutton),
Lancashire
bur. Church of St. Mary, Prescot, Lancashire
m. by 1608 to Anne Sutton, daughter of Edward Sutton, Gent., of Rushton
Spencer, Staffordshire and Knowsley (in Huyton), Lancashire, deputy steward
of
Prescot Manor by his wife Anne Stanley. >>
Would somebody have the parents and grandparents of this Anne Stanley?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Descent of Richard Fenwick (d. 1714) of Maryland from Ed
_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Descent of Richard Fenwick (d. 1714) of
Maryland from Edward I_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1141258363)
Will~
In his two recent books Douglas Richardson has satisfactorily shown that
Anne Stanley to be a daughter of Peter Stanley, Esq., of Bickerstaff by his
second of three wives, Cecily Tarleton.
Maryland from Edward I_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1141258363)
Will~
In his two recent books Douglas Richardson has satisfactorily shown that
Anne Stanley to be a daughter of Peter Stanley, Esq., of Bickerstaff by his
second of three wives, Cecily Tarleton.
-
David Teague
Re: Greetings of the day (1 March 2006)
James,
St. George's Day (for England) is 23 April; St. Piran's Day (for Cornwall)
is 5 March; St. Andrew's Day (for Scotland) is 30 November, although there
is also a feast day in honor of a translation (i.e., transfer) of his relics
on 9 May.
David Teague
St. George's Day (for England) is 23 April; St. Piran's Day (for Cornwall)
is 5 March; St. Andrew's Day (for Scotland) is 30 November, although there
is also a feast day in honor of a translation (i.e., transfer) of his relics
on 9 May.
David Teague
From: Jwc1870@aol.com
To: davteague@hotmail.com
CC: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Greetings of the day (1 March 2006)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 21:16:50 EST
Dear Listers,
Happy Saint David`s Day. Almost Everyone knows when
Saint
Patrick`s Day (Ireland) is but when are Saint George`s Day (England) and
Saint Andrew`s Day (Scotland). I`m a bit of an InterIsle Person (Ancestors
in each
of the British Isles` four major areas)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Brad Verity
Re: Sir John Ferrers MP
Dear Will,
Apologies for the delay in responding.
Yes, at that time. I do not know when the words "grandfather, grandmother,
grandson, etc." came into common usage. But "cousin" seems to have been
used then for any relative who was not a parent, child or sibling.
Cheers, --------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm ... direct/01/
Apologies for the delay in responding.
Yes, at that time. I do not know when the words "grandfather, grandmother,
grandson, etc." came into common usage. But "cousin" seems to have been
used then for any relative who was not a parent, child or sibling.
Cheers, --------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm ... direct/01/
-
JohnR
Re: Price of sheep in 1625 ?
Thanks for the anything but wooly answers. These particular sheep on
the Wiltshire Hampshire border probably supplied the wool for Sewell of
Coventry, who was a mercer.
John
the Wiltshire Hampshire border probably supplied the wool for Sewell of
Coventry, who was a mercer.
John
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Maud de Bohun
Elaboration please. Is Joelus de Meyne II considered Judhael of Totness who
held extensive properties in Devon? Was it this Joelus who inherited
property from his uncle, Walter? By whom was Walter granted this property?
Totness descended to the Braose family. I am researching how the de
Veteriponts possessed property in this vicinity.
Thank you very much in advance.
Pat
----------
held extensive properties in Devon? Was it this Joelus who inherited
property from his uncle, Walter? By whom was Walter granted this property?
Totness descended to the Braose family. I am researching how the de
Veteriponts possessed property in this vicinity.
Thank you very much in advance.
Pat
----------
From: PMeazey@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Maud de Bohun
Date: Fri, 3, 2006, 8:43 AM
In the course of working on the lords of Dinan and related families I have
come across a reference to Maud de Bohun as wife of Juhel II de Mayenne. If I
am
reading this right Maud/Mathilde de Bohun was a daughter of Margaret of
Scotland by her second marriage, which would mean she was step-sister to the
Duchess Constance of Brittany.
Juhel II de Mayenne possessed land in England, inherited from his uncle
Walter de Mayenne, 3rd husband of the Countess Cecily. He also had a
substantial
inheritance around Mayenne - local historians speak of 60 parishes.
I have Juhel married to Gervaise de Dinan when her father died abt 1197, and
the lordship of Mayenne was inherited by their eldest daughter on his death in
1220 which would indicate that there were no surviving children of a previous
marriage.
Can anyone confirm this story ?
TIA
Peter Meazey
8 rue de l'Ecole, 22100 DINAN France
-
Bob Turcott
RE: Bayeux Tapestry
Pat,
I don't know how reliable the source is nor have I read the book, however
I have see some referances to tapestry and The family of Guillaume le
Conquérant de NORMANDIE and Mathilde de FLANDRE...I don't remember were I
saw such a referance, however there are
some decent websites as well as books that refer to Bayeaux tapestry..
I recommend visiting some of the websites and consulting those researchers,
I suspect you may
get some very credible responces from some very experienced resaerchers. Do
a google search
and you will find a goldmine of data, but be cautious of some of the
authors, I usually check more than one source to confirm data..
Bob
From: "Patrick Henin" <fa102440@skynet.be>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Bayeux Tapestry
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 18:57:47 +0100
_________________________________________________________________
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I don't know how reliable the source is nor have I read the book, however
I have see some referances to tapestry and The family of Guillaume le
Conquérant de NORMANDIE and Mathilde de FLANDRE...I don't remember were I
saw such a referance, however there are
some decent websites as well as books that refer to Bayeaux tapestry..
I recommend visiting some of the websites and consulting those researchers,
I suspect you may
get some very credible responces from some very experienced resaerchers. Do
a google search
and you will find a goldmine of data, but be cautious of some of the
authors, I usually check more than one source to confirm data..
Bob
From: "Patrick Henin" <fa102440@skynet.be>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Bayeux Tapestry
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 18:57:47 +0100
I've just started reading ( in translation) "1066- the hidden history of
the Bayeux tapestry" by Andrew Bridgeford, C2004.How trustworthy is this?
Has a member of the group read this book?There's an impressive bibliography
at the end of the volume.
Patrick
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-
Ginny Wagner
RE: Bayeux Tapestry
http://www.hastings1066.com/bayeux9.shtml
and for the full tapestry with translation and comments:
http://www.essentialnormanconquest.com/ ... tartpc.dcr
Ginny Wagner
"Fili, sapientia thesaurus est et cor tuum archa"
-- Hugh St. Victor
and for the full tapestry with translation and comments:
http://www.essentialnormanconquest.com/ ... tartpc.dcr
Ginny Wagner
"Fili, sapientia thesaurus est et cor tuum archa"
-- Hugh St. Victor
-
Gjest
Re: Grigory Orlov
Dear Newsgroup,
According to the information given on this family
by Answers.com Ivan, Alexei, Grigori, and Fyodor were the sons of a certain
Grigori Orlov who was Governor of Novgorod and died in 1746. In 1762 the brothers
Alexei and Grigori Orlov at the behest of Czarina Catherine deposed and
murdered her husband Czar Peter III, She taking the throne as Catherine II.
Alexei is rumored to have committed the actual murder and They and their brothers
were ennobled first as Counts and later as Princes.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
According to the information given on this family
by Answers.com Ivan, Alexei, Grigori, and Fyodor were the sons of a certain
Grigori Orlov who was Governor of Novgorod and died in 1746. In 1762 the brothers
Alexei and Grigori Orlov at the behest of Czarina Catherine deposed and
murdered her husband Czar Peter III, She taking the throne as Catherine II.
Alexei is rumored to have committed the actual murder and They and their brothers
were ennobled first as Counts and later as Princes.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Brad Verity
FitzJames of Redlynch/Michell of East Chilton
One of the direct female-to-female line descendants of Edward I was
Elizabeth Bluett, daughter of Walter Bluett of Holcombe Rogus, Devonshire,
and Joan St. Maur. Elizabeth married, as his first wife, John FitzJames, of
Redlynch in Bruton, Somerset, son and heir of John FitzJames of Redlynch (d.
1476) by his wife Alice Newburgh. John FitzJames of Redlynch was an MP, and
died in 1510, leaving a will which was probated on 10 December 1510. The
will is available thru PCC Wills Online, which I will order.
I was wondering if anyone had a list of the issue of John FitzJames and
Elizabeth Bluett? I have compiled (from unsourced websites) the following
children:
1) Sir John FitzJames of Redlynch, chief justice of the King's Bench, born
about 1470; died about 1542; will dated 23 Oct. 1538
2) Elizabeth FitzJames, married John Gilbert, of Compton, Devonshire
3) Margaret FitzJames*, married Thomas Michell (c.1474-1503), of East
Chilton in Durleigh, and Clayhill, Dodesham & Pillock in Cannington,
Somerset, 3rd son & eventual heir of Walter Michell by his wife Agnes
Peryman.
* But the wife of Thomas Michell and mother of his children is also stated
to have been Isabel ----, who married 2ndly, John FitzJames of Redlynch (d.
1510), above, and died his widow in 1527, leaving a will naming "My daughter
Lady Fitzjames--My son Hugh Malet of Corypool a goblet of gilte, bearing
arms of liberds head-- To my godson Thomas Malet a goblet gilte with the
arms of portcullis and the rose and six silver spoongs--My daughter Isabel
Malet a nutte gilte, with cover to the same, and a Mary Mawdelyn box with a
cover, six pair of fine sheets, and six of yeomen sheets-- My son Thomas
Michell, my daughter Jane Michell his wife, etc. Residue to Hugh Malet and
Thomas Michell, executors."
Some sources say this Isabel, second wife of John FitzJames, was a
Courtenay. This may be confusing her with Elizabeth Courtenay (d. 1
September 1493), daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay, of Powderham, who married
1st, Sir James Luttrell, 2nd, Sir Humphrey Audley, and 3rdly (as his 2nd
wife), Thomas Malet, of Enmore, Currypool and Sutton Malet, Somerset (d. 9
July 1501), son of Hugh Malet and Joan Ronyon. By his first wife Joan
Wadham, Thomas Malet was grandfather of Hugh Malet of Enmore (d. 1541) who
married Isabel Michell, daughter of Thomas Michell (d. 1503) of East
Chilton, above. Thomas Malet (d. 1501) also left a widow, his third wife,
named Isabel, to whom he left the manor of Sutton Malet for life, and this
Isabel is said by some sources to have been the daughter of Sir William
Courtenay.
It's all very confusing.
Cheers, -----------Brad
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Elizabeth Bluett, daughter of Walter Bluett of Holcombe Rogus, Devonshire,
and Joan St. Maur. Elizabeth married, as his first wife, John FitzJames, of
Redlynch in Bruton, Somerset, son and heir of John FitzJames of Redlynch (d.
1476) by his wife Alice Newburgh. John FitzJames of Redlynch was an MP, and
died in 1510, leaving a will which was probated on 10 December 1510. The
will is available thru PCC Wills Online, which I will order.
I was wondering if anyone had a list of the issue of John FitzJames and
Elizabeth Bluett? I have compiled (from unsourced websites) the following
children:
1) Sir John FitzJames of Redlynch, chief justice of the King's Bench, born
about 1470; died about 1542; will dated 23 Oct. 1538
2) Elizabeth FitzJames, married John Gilbert, of Compton, Devonshire
3) Margaret FitzJames*, married Thomas Michell (c.1474-1503), of East
Chilton in Durleigh, and Clayhill, Dodesham & Pillock in Cannington,
Somerset, 3rd son & eventual heir of Walter Michell by his wife Agnes
Peryman.
* But the wife of Thomas Michell and mother of his children is also stated
to have been Isabel ----, who married 2ndly, John FitzJames of Redlynch (d.
1510), above, and died his widow in 1527, leaving a will naming "My daughter
Lady Fitzjames--My son Hugh Malet of Corypool a goblet of gilte, bearing
arms of liberds head-- To my godson Thomas Malet a goblet gilte with the
arms of portcullis and the rose and six silver spoongs--My daughter Isabel
Malet a nutte gilte, with cover to the same, and a Mary Mawdelyn box with a
cover, six pair of fine sheets, and six of yeomen sheets-- My son Thomas
Michell, my daughter Jane Michell his wife, etc. Residue to Hugh Malet and
Thomas Michell, executors."
Some sources say this Isabel, second wife of John FitzJames, was a
Courtenay. This may be confusing her with Elizabeth Courtenay (d. 1
September 1493), daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay, of Powderham, who married
1st, Sir James Luttrell, 2nd, Sir Humphrey Audley, and 3rdly (as his 2nd
wife), Thomas Malet, of Enmore, Currypool and Sutton Malet, Somerset (d. 9
July 1501), son of Hugh Malet and Joan Ronyon. By his first wife Joan
Wadham, Thomas Malet was grandfather of Hugh Malet of Enmore (d. 1541) who
married Isabel Michell, daughter of Thomas Michell (d. 1503) of East
Chilton, above. Thomas Malet (d. 1501) also left a widow, his third wife,
named Isabel, to whom he left the manor of Sutton Malet for life, and this
Isabel is said by some sources to have been the daughter of Sir William
Courtenay.
It's all very confusing.
Cheers, -----------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
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John P. Ravilious
Re: FitzJames of Redlynch/Michell of East Chilton
Dear Brad,
What you give below (Bluett - FitzJames - Michell - Malet) is as
I have it at present. Jeffrey Duvall had advised some time ago that
Elizabeth Bluett was identified as a daughter of a William (not Walter)
Bluett or Blewett.
I ceased working on this line following failure to prove their
alleged Prater/Prather descendant, Thomas Prater of West Kingston,
Wilts. was the father of the emigrant Thomas Prater/Prather (of
'Elizabeth Cittie', Virginia, 1622), the alleged ancestor of the
Praters of Maryland. If I should note some added relevant information
on the FitzJames, etc. I will advise.
Cheers,
John
"Brad Verity" wrote:
What you give below (Bluett - FitzJames - Michell - Malet) is as
I have it at present. Jeffrey Duvall had advised some time ago that
Elizabeth Bluett was identified as a daughter of a William (not Walter)
Bluett or Blewett.
I ceased working on this line following failure to prove their
alleged Prater/Prather descendant, Thomas Prater of West Kingston,
Wilts. was the father of the emigrant Thomas Prater/Prather (of
'Elizabeth Cittie', Virginia, 1622), the alleged ancestor of the
Praters of Maryland. If I should note some added relevant information
on the FitzJames, etc. I will advise.
Cheers,
John
"Brad Verity" wrote:
One of the direct female-to-female line descendants of Edward I was
Elizabeth Bluett, daughter of Walter Bluett of Holcombe Rogus, Devonshire,
and Joan St. Maur. Elizabeth married, as his first wife, John FitzJames, of
Redlynch in Bruton, Somerset, son and heir of John FitzJames of Redlynch (d.
1476) by his wife Alice Newburgh. John FitzJames of Redlynch was an MP, and
died in 1510, leaving a will which was probated on 10 December 1510. The
will is available thru PCC Wills Online, which I will order.
I was wondering if anyone had a list of the issue of John FitzJames and
Elizabeth Bluett? I have compiled (from unsourced websites) the following
children:
1) Sir John FitzJames of Redlynch, chief justice of the King's Bench, born
about 1470; died about 1542; will dated 23 Oct. 1538
2) Elizabeth FitzJames, married John Gilbert, of Compton, Devonshire
3) Margaret FitzJames*, married Thomas Michell (c.1474-1503), of East
Chilton in Durleigh, and Clayhill, Dodesham & Pillock in Cannington,
Somerset, 3rd son & eventual heir of Walter Michell by his wife Agnes
Peryman.
* But the wife of Thomas Michell and mother of his children is also stated
to have been Isabel ----, who married 2ndly, John FitzJames of Redlynch (d.
1510), above, and died his widow in 1527, leaving a will naming "My daughter
Lady Fitzjames--My son Hugh Malet of Corypool a goblet of gilte, bearing
arms of liberds head-- To my godson Thomas Malet a goblet gilte with the
arms of portcullis and the rose and six silver spoongs--My daughter Isabel
Malet a nutte gilte, with cover to the same, and a Mary Mawdelyn box with a
cover, six pair of fine sheets, and six of yeomen sheets-- My son Thomas
Michell, my daughter Jane Michell his wife, etc. Residue to Hugh Malet and
Thomas Michell, executors."
Some sources say this Isabel, second wife of John FitzJames, was a
Courtenay. This may be confusing her with Elizabeth Courtenay (d. 1
September 1493), daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay, of Powderham, who married
1st, Sir James Luttrell, 2nd, Sir Humphrey Audley, and 3rdly (as his 2nd
wife), Thomas Malet, of Enmore, Currypool and Sutton Malet, Somerset (d. 9
July 1501), son of Hugh Malet and Joan Ronyon. By his first wife Joan
Wadham, Thomas Malet was grandfather of Hugh Malet of Enmore (d. 1541) who
married Isabel Michell, daughter of Thomas Michell (d. 1503) of East
Chilton, above. Thomas Malet (d. 1501) also left a widow, his third wife,
named Isabel, to whom he left the manor of Sutton Malet for life, and this
Isabel is said by some sources to have been the daughter of Sir William
Courtenay.
It's all very confusing.
Cheers, -----------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
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-
John Higgins
Re: FitzJames of Redlynch/Michell of East Chilton
FWIW [not necessarily very much], F. W. Weaver's edition of the visitations
of Somerset [1885] has a pedigree of Fitzjames which lists the children of
John Fitzjames (d. 1510) and Elizabeth Bluett as the 3 children you list and
3 additional daughters: Alice, Jane and Jone [sic]. Spouses are not given
for the first two but Joan/Jone is said to have mar. "Rich. Fortescue of
Filly, Devon". However, I cannot quickly find this last marriage (or any
Fitzjames connection) in the usual pedigrees of the Fortescue family. So,
caveat lector...
The same pedigree does not specify a given name for Elizabeth Bluett nor
does it give her parents. I gather from the response of John R. that there
is some question about the name of her father. She does not appear in a
pedigree of Blewett in Vivian's edition of the visitations of Devon, but a
sister Joan of John Fitzjames (d. 1510) did mar. Nicholas Bluett [or
Blewett], son of Walter and Joan St. Maur, so it would not be improbable
that Nicholas had a sister who mar. his wife's brother. Is there any other
support for the parentage of Elizabeth Bluett?
Finally, the Somerset visitation pedigree of Fitzjames gives the parents of
John Fitzjames (d. 1510) as James [not John] Fitzjames and Elinor Draycott
of Redlinch. Since John Fitzjames (d. 1510) was an MP, he is likely in one
of the volumes of "History of Parliament", but not unfortunately in the
volumes to which I have access. What other support is there for his
parentage?
Some more items for the next trip to the library....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 12:09 AM
Subject: FitzJames of Redlynch/Michell of East Chilton
of Somerset [1885] has a pedigree of Fitzjames which lists the children of
John Fitzjames (d. 1510) and Elizabeth Bluett as the 3 children you list and
3 additional daughters: Alice, Jane and Jone [sic]. Spouses are not given
for the first two but Joan/Jone is said to have mar. "Rich. Fortescue of
Filly, Devon". However, I cannot quickly find this last marriage (or any
Fitzjames connection) in the usual pedigrees of the Fortescue family. So,
caveat lector...
The same pedigree does not specify a given name for Elizabeth Bluett nor
does it give her parents. I gather from the response of John R. that there
is some question about the name of her father. She does not appear in a
pedigree of Blewett in Vivian's edition of the visitations of Devon, but a
sister Joan of John Fitzjames (d. 1510) did mar. Nicholas Bluett [or
Blewett], son of Walter and Joan St. Maur, so it would not be improbable
that Nicholas had a sister who mar. his wife's brother. Is there any other
support for the parentage of Elizabeth Bluett?
Finally, the Somerset visitation pedigree of Fitzjames gives the parents of
John Fitzjames (d. 1510) as James [not John] Fitzjames and Elinor Draycott
of Redlinch. Since John Fitzjames (d. 1510) was an MP, he is likely in one
of the volumes of "History of Parliament", but not unfortunately in the
volumes to which I have access. What other support is there for his
parentage?
Some more items for the next trip to the library....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 12:09 AM
Subject: FitzJames of Redlynch/Michell of East Chilton
One of the direct female-to-female line descendants of Edward I was
Elizabeth Bluett, daughter of Walter Bluett of Holcombe Rogus, Devonshire,
and Joan St. Maur. Elizabeth married, as his first wife, John FitzJames,
of
Redlynch in Bruton, Somerset, son and heir of John FitzJames of Redlynch
(d.
1476) by his wife Alice Newburgh. John FitzJames of Redlynch was an MP,
and
died in 1510, leaving a will which was probated on 10 December 1510. The
will is available thru PCC Wills Online, which I will order.
I was wondering if anyone had a list of the issue of John FitzJames and
Elizabeth Bluett? I have compiled (from unsourced websites) the following
children:
1) Sir John FitzJames of Redlynch, chief justice of the King's Bench, born
about 1470; died about 1542; will dated 23 Oct. 1538
2) Elizabeth FitzJames, married John Gilbert, of Compton, Devonshire
3) Margaret FitzJames*, married Thomas Michell (c.1474-1503), of East
Chilton in Durleigh, and Clayhill, Dodesham & Pillock in Cannington,
Somerset, 3rd son & eventual heir of Walter Michell by his wife Agnes
Peryman.
* But the wife of Thomas Michell and mother of his children is also stated
to have been Isabel ----, who married 2ndly, John FitzJames of Redlynch
(d.
1510), above, and died his widow in 1527, leaving a will naming "My
daughter
Lady Fitzjames--My son Hugh Malet of Corypool a goblet of gilte, bearing
arms of liberds head-- To my godson Thomas Malet a goblet gilte with the
arms of portcullis and the rose and six silver spoongs--My daughter Isabel
Malet a nutte gilte, with cover to the same, and a Mary Mawdelyn box with
a
cover, six pair of fine sheets, and six of yeomen sheets-- My son Thomas
Michell, my daughter Jane Michell his wife, etc. Residue to Hugh Malet and
Thomas Michell, executors."
Some sources say this Isabel, second wife of John FitzJames, was a
Courtenay. This may be confusing her with Elizabeth Courtenay (d. 1
September 1493), daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay, of Powderham, who
married
1st, Sir James Luttrell, 2nd, Sir Humphrey Audley, and 3rdly (as his 2nd
wife), Thomas Malet, of Enmore, Currypool and Sutton Malet, Somerset (d. 9
July 1501), son of Hugh Malet and Joan Ronyon. By his first wife Joan
Wadham, Thomas Malet was grandfather of Hugh Malet of Enmore (d. 1541) who
married Isabel Michell, daughter of Thomas Michell (d. 1503) of East
Chilton, above. Thomas Malet (d. 1501) also left a widow, his third wife,
named Isabel, to whom he left the manor of Sutton Malet for life, and this
Isabel is said by some sources to have been the daughter of Sir William
Courtenay.
It's all very confusing.
Cheers, -----------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm ... direct/01/
-
John Higgins
Re: FitzJames of Redlynch/Michell of East Chilton
Thanks for the VCH references, which in turn lead to some interesting
references to look up in SLC next trip.
As to the daughters of John Fitzjames (d. 1510), Weaver's visitation
pedigree agrees with your sources as to their spouses, Thomas Michell and
John Gilbert (although it calls Thomas Michell's wife Mary rather than
Margaret).
Weaver also carries the Gilbert descent in the Fitzjames pedigree a few
generations further to connect to the wife of Sir William Portman, Lord
Chief Justice (d. 1556/7). His wife Elizabeth Gilbert was dau. of John
Gilbert by Christian, dau. of William Baskett, and John was in turn son of
John Gifford and Elizabeth Fitzjames. I'd be curious to know if or how this
Baskett is related to the Elizabeth Baskett you mention who was mar. to the
son of Sir John Fitzjames the chief Justice.
The Gilbert pedigree is also referenced on a separate page of Weaver, which
I don't currently have a copy of. But a different visitation of Somerset,
the one of 1623 published as vol. 11 of the Harleian Society, includes in
its pedigree of Portman a typically skeletal pedigree of Gilbert which takes
the family back several generations (without dates of course and with only a
few spouses). But this sequence of Gilberts does not match at all to any of
the Gilbert families in Vivian's Devon, so if it's indeed accurate it's
likely a separate family entirely.
A somewhat related question: the Chief Justice Sir William Portman had a
son Sir Henry (d. 1590) who was mar. to Joan, dau. of Thomas Michell of
Cannington. I suspect this last is likely a descendant of the Thomas
Michell who mar. Margaret [or Mary] Fitzjames, but I can't presently make
the connection. Any clues, anyone?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: FitzJames of Redlynch/Michell of East Chilton
references to look up in SLC next trip.
As to the daughters of John Fitzjames (d. 1510), Weaver's visitation
pedigree agrees with your sources as to their spouses, Thomas Michell and
John Gilbert (although it calls Thomas Michell's wife Mary rather than
Margaret).
Weaver also carries the Gilbert descent in the Fitzjames pedigree a few
generations further to connect to the wife of Sir William Portman, Lord
Chief Justice (d. 1556/7). His wife Elizabeth Gilbert was dau. of John
Gilbert by Christian, dau. of William Baskett, and John was in turn son of
John Gifford and Elizabeth Fitzjames. I'd be curious to know if or how this
Baskett is related to the Elizabeth Baskett you mention who was mar. to the
son of Sir John Fitzjames the chief Justice.
The Gilbert pedigree is also referenced on a separate page of Weaver, which
I don't currently have a copy of. But a different visitation of Somerset,
the one of 1623 published as vol. 11 of the Harleian Society, includes in
its pedigree of Portman a typically skeletal pedigree of Gilbert which takes
the family back several generations (without dates of course and with only a
few spouses). But this sequence of Gilberts does not match at all to any of
the Gilbert families in Vivian's Devon, so if it's indeed accurate it's
likely a separate family entirely.
A somewhat related question: the Chief Justice Sir William Portman had a
son Sir Henry (d. 1590) who was mar. to Joan, dau. of Thomas Michell of
Cannington. I suspect this last is likely a descendant of the Thomas
Michell who mar. Margaret [or Mary] Fitzjames, but I can't presently make
the connection. Any clues, anyone?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: FitzJames of Redlynch/Michell of East Chilton
Dear John,
Many thanks for investigating this further. Comments interspersed.
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
FWIW [not necessarily very much], F. W. Weaver's edition of the
visitations
of Somerset [1885] has a pedigree of Fitzjames which lists the children
of
John Fitzjames (d. 1510) and Elizabeth Bluett as the 3 children you list
and
3 additional daughters: Alice, Jane and Jone [sic].
It would seem natural for John FitzJames and Elizabeth Bluett (if daughter
of Joan St. Maur) to have daughters Alice and Joan, named for each of
their
mothers.
Spouses are not given
for the first two but Joan/Jone is said to have mar. "Rich. Fortescue of
Filly, Devon". However, I cannot quickly find this last marriage (or any
Fitzjames connection) in the usual pedigrees of the Fortescue family.
So,
caveat lector...
Does the Visitation pedigree give the spouses of Margaret (Thomas Michell)
and Elizabeth (John Gilbert)?
Vivian's pedigree of Gilbert of Compton, Devonshire, doesn't mention a
John
Gilbert/Elizabeth FitzJames (or any Gilbert/FitzJames) marriage, but
appears
to be missing a generation or two between Otes Gilbert (about age 14 in
1430) and his alleged son and heir John Gilbert (dsp 1539).
The same pedigree does not specify a given name for Elizabeth Bluett nor
does it give her parents. I gather from the response of John R. that
there
is some question about the name of her father. She does not appear in a
pedigree of Blewett in Vivian's edition of the visitations of Devon, but
a
sister Joan of John Fitzjames (d. 1510) did mar. Nicholas Bluett [or
Blewett], son of Walter and Joan St. Maur, so it would not be improbable
that Nicholas had a sister who mar. his wife's brother.
Agreed.
Is there any other
support for the parentage of Elizabeth Bluett?
No direct primary or contemporary evidence. Hopefully the will of John
FitzJames (d. 1510) will shed some light.
Finally, the Somerset visitation pedigree of Fitzjames gives the parents
of
John Fitzjames (d. 1510) as James [not John] Fitzjames and Elinor
Draycott
of Redlinch.
Another Visitation pedigree mistake. James FitzJames (d. about 1391) and
Eleanor Draycott, heiress of Redlynch, were actually the
great-grandparents
of John FitzJames (d. 1510).
Since John Fitzjames (d. 1510) was an MP, he is likely in one
of the volumes of "History of Parliament", but not unfortunately in the
volumes to which I have access.
He's in Wedgwood, which I don't have easy access to either. Anyone have
Wedgwood's HOP readily available?
What other support is there for his
parentage?
VCH Somerset's article on Bruton (including the manor of Redlynch) is a
thorough account. It is online at:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=18733
One error in it: it says that Sir John FitzJames, chief justice of the
King's Bench (d. about 1542), son and heir of John FitzJames (d. 1510) and
Elizabeth Bluett, had a daughter Elizabeth who survived him. Elizabeth
was
actually his daughter-in-law, the wife of his only son John FitzJames,
esquire, who died vp and sp in 1533/4. Chief Justice John's wife's first
name was Elizabeth as well, but I haven't been able yet to determine her
parentage. The Elizabeth who married their only son was Elizabeth Basket
(dsp 1550), heiress of South Brewham, Somerset, only child of John Basket
and Joan Beauchamp of South Brewham (who was a granddaughter of John, 1st
Lord Beauchamp of Powick). See the VCH Somerset article on Brewham, also
online at:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=18729
The male line of Elizabeth Bluett and John FitzJames ended in two
generations - the later FitzJameses of Redlynch were descended from a
nephew
of John (d. 1510).
Some more items for the next trip to the library....
Yes, indeed.
Thanks and Cheers, ---------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
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Merilyn Pedrick
Re: OT Elizabeth Browne
Dear Adrian
What a fascinating snippet. Do you know which Elizabeth Browne she was?
Could she have been the one who married Sir William Meux of Kingston in
1681? Or would she have been too old for such an undertaking in 1715? He
died about 1697.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia
-------Original Message-------
From: ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com
Date: 03/05/06 00:36:48
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: OT Elizabeth Browne
OT Elizabeth Browne,
Some readers my be interested in the following found in the PRO, A2A web
pages
Reference: QS1/55/3; Doncaster; Creation dates: Jan 1715/16
.....
certificate of safe passage re Eliz. Browne to go abroad "in manly apparell
as she is a respectable person and has borne arms in the late wars for 5
years in her husband's stead;
From PRO; A2A: West Yorkshire Archive Service, Wakefield Headquarters: West
Riding Quarter Sessions [QS1].
Adrian
What a fascinating snippet. Do you know which Elizabeth Browne she was?
Could she have been the one who married Sir William Meux of Kingston in
1681? Or would she have been too old for such an undertaking in 1715? He
died about 1697.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia
-------Original Message-------
From: ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com
Date: 03/05/06 00:36:48
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: OT Elizabeth Browne
OT Elizabeth Browne,
Some readers my be interested in the following found in the PRO, A2A web
pages
Reference: QS1/55/3; Doncaster; Creation dates: Jan 1715/16
.....
certificate of safe passage re Eliz. Browne to go abroad "in manly apparell
as she is a respectable person and has borne arms in the late wars for 5
years in her husband's stead;
From PRO; A2A: West Yorkshire Archive Service, Wakefield Headquarters: West
Riding Quarter Sessions [QS1].
Adrian
-
Brad Verity
Re: FitzJames of Redlynch/Michell of East Chilton
Dear John,
Thanks once again for looking through the pedigrees on these families.
Comments interspersed.
Great - please keep us informed. Also, the FHL in SLC has a copy of
Wedgwood's HOP, so you can look up the bio of John Fitzjames (d. 1510), as
well.
The will of Thomas Michell (d. 1503) is available through PCC Online.
Hopefully it will shed further light.
Very good. Portman sounds distinguished enough that there ought to be
enough information to verify which family of Gilberts his wife was from.
It would seem they were related, Elizabeth Basket married to John Fitzjames,
esquire, and Christian Baskett, married to John Gilbert, first cousin of
John Fitzjames, esquire. My guess would be that John Basket, father of
Elizabeth, and William Basket, father of Christian, were brothers. Though
if the pedigree got the name of 'William' wrong, and it should have been
'John', then Elizabeth and Christian could have been sisters. But since
Elizabeth was an heiress, Christian could not be a full sister.
Half-sisters is possible as Elizabeth's manor of South Brewham came to her
through her mother, not her father.
Agreed. Probably with lands in Somerset rather than Devonshire. Only
slightly related question: is it 'Somerset' or 'Somersetshire'?
The Michells are coverered somewhat sketchily by VCH Somerset's article on
Durleigh, which covers the manor Michell manor of East Chilton. It is
online at:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=18515
The Michells did not hold the chief manor of Cannington, but rather three
sub-manors within it: Clayhill, Dodesham & Pillock, which are covered by the
Cannington article in VCH Somerset.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=18556
Thomas Michell (d. 1539), the son and heir of Thomas Michell (d. 1503),
married Joan Warre, daughter of Thomas Warre, of Hestercombe, Somerset, by
his wife Jane Malet. The younger Thomas murdered his wife Joan, and her
sister, then killed himself. Joan Michell, the wife of Sir Henry Portman
(d. 1590), would likely be the daughter of this tragic couple, as their son
and heir was named Richard (d. 1563), not 'Thomas'.
Thanks and Cheers, -----------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/ca ... p?cid=3963
Thanks once again for looking through the pedigrees on these families.
Comments interspersed.
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
Thanks for the VCH references, which in turn lead to some interesting
references to look up in SLC next trip.
Great - please keep us informed. Also, the FHL in SLC has a copy of
Wedgwood's HOP, so you can look up the bio of John Fitzjames (d. 1510), as
well.
As to the daughters of John Fitzjames (d. 1510), Weaver's visitation
pedigree agrees with your sources as to their spouses, Thomas Michell and
John Gilbert (although it calls Thomas Michell's wife Mary rather than
Margaret).
The will of Thomas Michell (d. 1503) is available through PCC Online.
Hopefully it will shed further light.
Weaver also carries the Gilbert descent in the Fitzjames pedigree a few
generations further to connect to the wife of Sir William Portman, Lord
Chief Justice (d. 1556/7).
Very good. Portman sounds distinguished enough that there ought to be
enough information to verify which family of Gilberts his wife was from.
His wife Elizabeth Gilbert was dau. of John
Gilbert by Christian, dau. of William Baskett, and John was in turn son of
John Gifford and Elizabeth Fitzjames. I'd be curious to know if or how
this
Baskett is related to the Elizabeth Baskett you mention who was mar. to the
son of Sir John Fitzjames the chief Justice.
It would seem they were related, Elizabeth Basket married to John Fitzjames,
esquire, and Christian Baskett, married to John Gilbert, first cousin of
John Fitzjames, esquire. My guess would be that John Basket, father of
Elizabeth, and William Basket, father of Christian, were brothers. Though
if the pedigree got the name of 'William' wrong, and it should have been
'John', then Elizabeth and Christian could have been sisters. But since
Elizabeth was an heiress, Christian could not be a full sister.
Half-sisters is possible as Elizabeth's manor of South Brewham came to her
through her mother, not her father.
The Gilbert pedigree is also referenced on a separate page of Weaver, which
I don't currently have a copy of. But a different visitation of Somerset,
the one of 1623 published as vol. 11 of the Harleian Society, includes in
its pedigree of Portman a typically skeletal pedigree of Gilbert which
takes
the family back several generations (without dates of course and with only
a
few spouses). But this sequence of Gilberts does not match at all to any
of
the Gilbert families in Vivian's Devon, so if it's indeed accurate it's
likely a separate family entirely.
Agreed. Probably with lands in Somerset rather than Devonshire. Only
slightly related question: is it 'Somerset' or 'Somersetshire'?
A somewhat related question: the Chief Justice Sir William Portman had a
son Sir Henry (d. 1590) who was mar. to Joan, dau. of Thomas Michell of
Cannington. I suspect this last is likely a descendant of the Thomas
Michell who mar. Margaret [or Mary] Fitzjames, but I can't presently make
the connection. Any clues, anyone?
The Michells are coverered somewhat sketchily by VCH Somerset's article on
Durleigh, which covers the manor Michell manor of East Chilton. It is
online at:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=18515
The Michells did not hold the chief manor of Cannington, but rather three
sub-manors within it: Clayhill, Dodesham & Pillock, which are covered by the
Cannington article in VCH Somerset.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=18556
Thomas Michell (d. 1539), the son and heir of Thomas Michell (d. 1503),
married Joan Warre, daughter of Thomas Warre, of Hestercombe, Somerset, by
his wife Jane Malet. The younger Thomas murdered his wife Joan, and her
sister, then killed himself. Joan Michell, the wife of Sir Henry Portman
(d. 1590), would likely be the daughter of this tragic couple, as their son
and heir was named Richard (d. 1563), not 'Thomas'.
Thanks and Cheers, -----------Brad
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/ca ... p?cid=3963
-
Gjest
Re: OT Elizabeth Browne
No, this Kingston is in the Isle of Wight, at the other end of the country.
Your Elizabeth was the dau of George Browne (1628-1675), Iron master and JP,
of Buckland, Surrey by his 2nd marriage in 1654 to Elizabeth 3rd dau of Sir
Ambrose Browne (sic) of Betchworth Castle Bart (which family is in one of the
editions of Burke's)
George Browne was son of John Browne (born c1590 Horsmonden, died 1651 bur
13 June Horsmonden, Will 15 May 1651); Sir; Iron master; of Brenchley and
Horsmonden m 24 Oct 1616 at Brenchley, Martha (-1644) dau of Richard or Henry
Tylden of Cats Place, Brenchley, Kent. He is sometimes stated as m 2ndly
Elizabeth dau of Lancelot Bathurst alderman of London, but this is a confusion with
another Browne marriage
This John Browne was son of Thomas Browne (-?1615) of Brenchley, Kent; Iron
master; by 1589 he operated Bough Beech furnace, Heaver, Kent which he
subsequently bought; by 1604 expansion included Ashurst and Horesmonden foundries.
He m Ann (surname unknown)
Adrian
In a message dated 04/03/2006 22:55:09 GMT Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:
Dear Adrian
What a fascinating snippet. Do you know which Elizabeth Browne she was?
Could she have been the one who married Sir William Meux of Kingston in
1681? Or would she have been too old for such an undertaking in 1715? He
died about 1697.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia
-------Original Message-------
From: ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com
Date: 03/05/06 00:36:48
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: OT Elizabeth Browne
Your Elizabeth was the dau of George Browne (1628-1675), Iron master and JP,
of Buckland, Surrey by his 2nd marriage in 1654 to Elizabeth 3rd dau of Sir
Ambrose Browne (sic) of Betchworth Castle Bart (which family is in one of the
editions of Burke's)
George Browne was son of John Browne (born c1590 Horsmonden, died 1651 bur
13 June Horsmonden, Will 15 May 1651); Sir; Iron master; of Brenchley and
Horsmonden m 24 Oct 1616 at Brenchley, Martha (-1644) dau of Richard or Henry
Tylden of Cats Place, Brenchley, Kent. He is sometimes stated as m 2ndly
Elizabeth dau of Lancelot Bathurst alderman of London, but this is a confusion with
another Browne marriage
This John Browne was son of Thomas Browne (-?1615) of Brenchley, Kent; Iron
master; by 1589 he operated Bough Beech furnace, Heaver, Kent which he
subsequently bought; by 1604 expansion included Ashurst and Horesmonden foundries.
He m Ann (surname unknown)
Adrian
In a message dated 04/03/2006 22:55:09 GMT Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:
Dear Adrian
What a fascinating snippet. Do you know which Elizabeth Browne she was?
Could she have been the one who married Sir William Meux of Kingston in
1681? Or would she have been too old for such an undertaking in 1715? He
died about 1697.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia
-------Original Message-------
From: ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com
Date: 03/05/06 00:36:48
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: OT Elizabeth Browne
-
Akrogiali
Re: Grigory Orlov
You are a bit wrong because I think you mix up the names.
There are numerous Gregories.
Gregory the Gov of Novgorod married Lukirya Zinoveva and had 4 sons:
Prince Gregory, Admiral Alexey; General Feodor and Vladimir(?).
Prince Gregory had on Illegitimate son Count Alexey Bobriksny who married
Anna, Dorotea von Ungern-Sternberg. and had a son Alexey Bobrinsky etc etc
The Admiral Alexey who was very much involved in the Greek revolution had
allegedly 5 illegitimate children.
General Feodor had one(?) son General Elexey b.1786
Vladimir had a son and a daughter.
There are also a few Lazar Orlov's and a Demitrii but I do not know where
they belong.
As far as the titles is concern they were nobles from Orlov (Russian
Province? or City) and they had titles although Caterina the Great may have
restored some (if lost)
<francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141485513.399561.168010@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
There are numerous Gregories.
Gregory the Gov of Novgorod married Lukirya Zinoveva and had 4 sons:
Prince Gregory, Admiral Alexey; General Feodor and Vladimir(?).
Prince Gregory had on Illegitimate son Count Alexey Bobriksny who married
Anna, Dorotea von Ungern-Sternberg. and had a son Alexey Bobrinsky etc etc
The Admiral Alexey who was very much involved in the Greek revolution had
allegedly 5 illegitimate children.
General Feodor had one(?) son General Elexey b.1786
Vladimir had a son and a daughter.
There are also a few Lazar Orlov's and a Demitrii but I do not know where
they belong.
As far as the titles is concern they were nobles from Orlov (Russian
Province? or City) and they had titles although Caterina the Great may have
restored some (if lost)
<francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141485513.399561.168010@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Answers.com is not very acurate. It seems that all the four brothers
were sometime officers in the imperial guard and all helped Catherine
but only three were made Counts. The eldest refused posts or titles and
led a quiet live administrating the Orlov estates.
None of the Counts had legitimate issue so the titles were not
inherited and even the estates passed to a lateral line (a nephew I
think).
Grigory's son by Catherine lived and took the name of the village of
Bobrinsk and originated the Counts Bobrinsky.
Alexey Fyodorevitch Orlov, one of the five legitimated children of
Fyodor, the general, was made a Count for his action in the 1825's
rebellion commanding the Life Guards. Later a lt.-General in the
Turquish war he made a brilliant diplomatic career and was made a
Prince in 1856 after as one of the plenipotenciaries, signed the peace
of Paris.
He was a lt.-general of cavalry but when he was ambassador at
Constantinople he was at the same time commander-in-chief of the Black
Sea Fleet. So he might have been the second *admiral* that George first
asked for.
Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: Maud de Bohun
Peter,
There appears to be only the Judhael of Totness in the Domesday accounts.
Ralph de Pomeroy held Great Torrington. Does your information perhaps
explain how the de la Zouches came to Black Torrington through the marriage
of Constance and Alan la Zouche? There are some accounts that seem to have
conflated Juhel and Judhael, then.
Thank you,
Pat
----------
From: PMeazey@aol.com
To: pajunkin@cox.net
Subject: Re: Maud de Bohun
Date: Fri, 3, 2006, 10:05 AM
Hi Pat,
No link with Totnes to the best of my current knowledge. I wonder who Juhel
de Totnes was - I've never seen anything serious.
The Juhel I'm looking for was born between 1168 and 1170, son of Geoffroy de
Mayenne and Isabelle de Beaumont. Geoffroy died and she remarried, which
gives both dates. Geoffroy's brother Gauthier/Walter married the countess
Cecily of Hereford but there were no children so Juhel inherited.
There were family properties at Black Torrington and South Petherton, not a
million miles from Totnes.
Juhel de Mayenne was already married to Gervaise de Dinan by 1197, when he
was aged 30.
The first marriage, if it's right, would explain his political life - he was
a strong supporter of the Duchess Constance of Brittany in her struggles
against King John. If she was his first wife's sister...
Best regards,
Peter
There appears to be only the Judhael of Totness in the Domesday accounts.
Ralph de Pomeroy held Great Torrington. Does your information perhaps
explain how the de la Zouches came to Black Torrington through the marriage
of Constance and Alan la Zouche? There are some accounts that seem to have
conflated Juhel and Judhael, then.
Thank you,
Pat
----------
From: PMeazey@aol.com
To: pajunkin@cox.net
Subject: Re: Maud de Bohun
Date: Fri, 3, 2006, 10:05 AM
Hi Pat,
No link with Totnes to the best of my current knowledge. I wonder who Juhel
de Totnes was - I've never seen anything serious.
The Juhel I'm looking for was born between 1168 and 1170, son of Geoffroy de
Mayenne and Isabelle de Beaumont. Geoffroy died and she remarried, which
gives both dates. Geoffroy's brother Gauthier/Walter married the countess
Cecily of Hereford but there were no children so Juhel inherited.
There were family properties at Black Torrington and South Petherton, not a
million miles from Totnes.
Juhel de Mayenne was already married to Gervaise de Dinan by 1197, when he
was aged 30.
The first marriage, if it's right, would explain his political life - he was
a strong supporter of the Duchess Constance of Brittany in her struggles
against King John. If she was his first wife's sister...
Best regards,
Peter
-
Gjest
Re: Grigory Orlov
1 - Grigory Ivanovich Orlov (1685-1746) governor of Great Novgorod.
Married to Lukeria Ivanovna Zinoveva, born 1710. Henry Soszynski told
you about him. He had no title. He left some estates.
1.1 - Ivan Grigoryevich Orlov (1733-1791)
1.2 - Grigory Grigoryevich Orlov (1734-1783)
1.3 - Alexey Grigoryevich Orlov (1737-1808)
1.4 - Fyodor Grigoryevich Orlov (1741-1796)
1.1 - Ivan Grigoryevich Orlov
He led a quiet life with no titles nor posts. Being the eldest he
administrated the Orlov estates.
1.2 - Count Grigory Grigoryevich Orlov
He was Catherine's lover and had a son by her, Alexey born 1762 (the
same year of the palace revolution) named after the village of Bobriki
(Stalinogorsk) where he lived; from him comes the line of Counts
Bobrinsky.
Count Grigory Orlov (never a prince) was general-in-chief and later a
diplomat without much success. He later married a niece, Madame
Zynovieva but without issue.
1.3 - Count Alexey Grigoryevich Orlov Chesmensky
This is the one who was put in charge of the Czar and later killed him.
In 1770 was appointed commander-in-chief of the fleet sent against the
turks and won the battle of Chesme against superior naval forces. He
was rewarded with the honorific ephitet of Chesmensky and quartered the
imperial arms in his shield. But was not made prince. He left an
enormous estate with 30 thousand serfs.
1.4 - Count Fyodor Grigoryevich Orlov
He was a Russian General and at the naval battle of Chesme, served
under Admiral Spiridov who was under the command of his brother Alexey.
Later he commanded another naval squirmish against the turks and that
was commemorated by Catherine with a monument; but he was not made
prince.
He never married but had five children, all legitimated and enobled by
Catherine.
In this generation, no Orlov was prince and none let legitimate
children. In 1808, died the last Count Orlov, Alexey Grigoryevich and
only seven years later another Orlov was made Count.
The titles (3) and arms of the Counts Orlov were claimed by the related
family Davydov who only saw their request granted nearly 50 years
later.
1.4.1 - Prince Alexey Fyodorevich Orlov (1787-1862)
I told the significant in my last post. A Count in 1815 and Prince in
1856.
He had only one son.
1.4.2 - Mikhail Fyodorevich Orlov (1788-1842)
Brother of the above he fought in the napoleonic wars and returned with
the rank of major-general.
I did not bother to look for the other 3 children because they do not
show in Britannica nor in Wikipedia.
1.4.1.1 - Prince Nicolay Alexeyevich Orlov (1827-1885)
Wounded at the Crimean war he became a diplomatist and an author.
Btw all this toppic is clearly out of the time frame of this list.
Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
Married to Lukeria Ivanovna Zinoveva, born 1710. Henry Soszynski told
you about him. He had no title. He left some estates.
1.1 - Ivan Grigoryevich Orlov (1733-1791)
1.2 - Grigory Grigoryevich Orlov (1734-1783)
1.3 - Alexey Grigoryevich Orlov (1737-1808)
1.4 - Fyodor Grigoryevich Orlov (1741-1796)
1.1 - Ivan Grigoryevich Orlov
He led a quiet life with no titles nor posts. Being the eldest he
administrated the Orlov estates.
1.2 - Count Grigory Grigoryevich Orlov
He was Catherine's lover and had a son by her, Alexey born 1762 (the
same year of the palace revolution) named after the village of Bobriki
(Stalinogorsk) where he lived; from him comes the line of Counts
Bobrinsky.
Count Grigory Orlov (never a prince) was general-in-chief and later a
diplomat without much success. He later married a niece, Madame
Zynovieva but without issue.
1.3 - Count Alexey Grigoryevich Orlov Chesmensky
This is the one who was put in charge of the Czar and later killed him.
In 1770 was appointed commander-in-chief of the fleet sent against the
turks and won the battle of Chesme against superior naval forces. He
was rewarded with the honorific ephitet of Chesmensky and quartered the
imperial arms in his shield. But was not made prince. He left an
enormous estate with 30 thousand serfs.
1.4 - Count Fyodor Grigoryevich Orlov
He was a Russian General and at the naval battle of Chesme, served
under Admiral Spiridov who was under the command of his brother Alexey.
Later he commanded another naval squirmish against the turks and that
was commemorated by Catherine with a monument; but he was not made
prince.
He never married but had five children, all legitimated and enobled by
Catherine.
In this generation, no Orlov was prince and none let legitimate
children. In 1808, died the last Count Orlov, Alexey Grigoryevich and
only seven years later another Orlov was made Count.
The titles (3) and arms of the Counts Orlov were claimed by the related
family Davydov who only saw their request granted nearly 50 years
later.
1.4.1 - Prince Alexey Fyodorevich Orlov (1787-1862)
I told the significant in my last post. A Count in 1815 and Prince in
1856.
He had only one son.
1.4.2 - Mikhail Fyodorevich Orlov (1788-1842)
Brother of the above he fought in the napoleonic wars and returned with
the rank of major-general.
I did not bother to look for the other 3 children because they do not
show in Britannica nor in Wikipedia.
1.4.1.1 - Prince Nicolay Alexeyevich Orlov (1827-1885)
Wounded at the Crimean war he became a diplomatist and an author.
Btw all this toppic is clearly out of the time frame of this list.
Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
-
Akrogiali
Re: Grigory Orlov
Encyclopaedia Britannica is not exactly always a source of good information.
When it comes to Russian genealogy and History I look for Russian
sources not American.
As far the titles of the Orlov family is concern they must have had some
because those days you did not become a high ranking army officer and a
palace trustee if you were not one of the aristocracy. That's a fact.
<francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141601237.890041.249420@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
When it comes to Russian genealogy and History I look for Russian
sources not American.
As far the titles of the Orlov family is concern they must have had some
because those days you did not become a high ranking army officer and a
palace trustee if you were not one of the aristocracy. That's a fact.
<francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141601237.890041.249420@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
1 - Grigory Ivanovich Orlov (1685-1746) governor of Great Novgorod.
Married to Lukeria Ivanovna Zinoveva, born 1710. Henry Soszynski told
you about him. He had no title. He left some estates.
1.1 - Ivan Grigoryevich Orlov (1733-1791)
1.2 - Grigory Grigoryevich Orlov (1734-1783)
1.3 - Alexey Grigoryevich Orlov (1737-1808)
1.4 - Fyodor Grigoryevich Orlov (1741-1796)
1.1 - Ivan Grigoryevich Orlov
He led a quiet life with no titles nor posts. Being the eldest he
administrated the Orlov estates.
1.2 - Count Grigory Grigoryevich Orlov
He was Catherine's lover and had a son by her, Alexey born 1762 (the
same year of the palace revolution) named after the village of Bobriki
(Stalinogorsk) where he lived; from him comes the line of Counts
Bobrinsky.
Count Grigory Orlov (never a prince) was general-in-chief and later a
diplomat without much success. He later married a niece, Madame
Zynovieva but without issue.
1.3 - Count Alexey Grigoryevich Orlov Chesmensky
This is the one who was put in charge of the Czar and later killed him.
In 1770 was appointed commander-in-chief of the fleet sent against the
turks and won the battle of Chesme against superior naval forces. He
was rewarded with the honorific ephitet of Chesmensky and quartered the
imperial arms in his shield. But was not made prince. He left an
enormous estate with 30 thousand serfs.
1.4 - Count Fyodor Grigoryevich Orlov
He was a Russian General and at the naval battle of Chesme, served
under Admiral Spiridov who was under the command of his brother Alexey.
Later he commanded another naval squirmish against the turks and that
was commemorated by Catherine with a monument; but he was not made
prince.
He never married but had five children, all legitimated and enobled by
Catherine.
In this generation, no Orlov was prince and none let legitimate
children. In 1808, died the last Count Orlov, Alexey Grigoryevich and
only seven years later another Orlov was made Count.
The titles (3) and arms of the Counts Orlov were claimed by the related
family Davydov who only saw their request granted nearly 50 years
later.
1.4.1 - Prince Alexey Fyodorevich Orlov (1787-1862)
I told the significant in my last post. A Count in 1815 and Prince in
1856.
He had only one son.
1.4.2 - Mikhail Fyodorevich Orlov (1788-1842)
Brother of the above he fought in the napoleonic wars and returned with
the rank of major-general.
I did not bother to look for the other 3 children because they do not
show in Britannica nor in Wikipedia.
1.4.1.1 - Prince Nicolay Alexeyevich Orlov (1827-1885)
Wounded at the Crimean war he became a diplomatist and an author.
Btw all this toppic is clearly out of the time frame of this list.
Best regards
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
(Portugal)
-
Bob Turcott
Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new
To all I have seen this line of Meherenc to Guillaume Le Conquérant on
francogene website.
The paynell tesson lines seem logical, the only thing I see in error is i
see Elisabeth de Clinchamp
as assigned the mother of Jean Meherenc, however this is not the case
Elisabeth de Clinchamp died without posterity and in Fact Jeanne Du pont is
the correct mother.
Adrien de Meherenc, sgr de La Conseillere et de
Montmirel
m. (1) 1579 Jeanne du Pont
m. (2) 1590, Elisabeth de Clinchamps, no posterity
Jacques Guérêt dit Dumont et Marie-Anne Tardif mariés le 19 avril 1694 à
Beauport.
René Guérêt et Madeleine Vigoureux mariés le 5 février 1660 à Bayeux,
France.
Jean Guérey et Françoise de Méhérenc de Montmirel mariés 22 juillet 1634 à
Canchy, Calvados, France.
Adrien de Méhérenc et Élisabeth de Clinchamp mariés vers 1590
Guillaume IV de Méhérenc et Marguerite de Sandret mariés vers 1545
Guillaume III de Méhérenc et Françoise de Maugny mariés vers 1520
Denis de Méhérenc mariés vers 1500 Anne de Grosparmy
Guillaume II de Méhérenc et Isabeau de Malherbe mariés vers 1475
Guillaume I de Méhérenc Bouchard et Marguerite de La Haye de Bouillon mariés
vers 1445
Jean VI dit le Gascoing et Catherine de La Luzerne
Jean V et Jeanne de Montenay mariés avant 1398
Jean IV et Françoise Tesson mariés vers 1360
Guillaume Tesson et Marie de Hotot
Guillaume et Martel de Bacqueville mariés vers 1300
Raoul Paynel puis Tesson et Pétronille de Montfort-Bigorre mariés vers 1270
Guy de MONTFORT et Pétronille de Commings
Simon V le Croisé et Alix de Montmorency, comte de Bigorre mariés 1216
Bouchard V et Laurence de Hainault mariés 1173
Mathieu Ier et Alice d'Angleterre, seigneur de Montmorency, mariés 1126 en
France
Baudouin IV le Bâtisseur et Alix de Namur
Bouchard III et Agnès de Beaumont mariés vers 1126
Henri Ier Beauclerc et ? mariés vers 1100
Guillaume de Normandie, (Guillaume le Conquérant) et Mathilde de
Flandre mariés avant 1056 France
Guillaume Le Conquérant
(Source: Site web Francogène:
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/006/765.php
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
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francogene website.
The paynell tesson lines seem logical, the only thing I see in error is i
see Elisabeth de Clinchamp
as assigned the mother of Jean Meherenc, however this is not the case
Elisabeth de Clinchamp died without posterity and in Fact Jeanne Du pont is
the correct mother.
Adrien de Meherenc, sgr de La Conseillere et de
Montmirel
m. (1) 1579 Jeanne du Pont
m. (2) 1590, Elisabeth de Clinchamps, no posterity
Jacques Guérêt dit Dumont et Marie-Anne Tardif mariés le 19 avril 1694 à
Beauport.
René Guérêt et Madeleine Vigoureux mariés le 5 février 1660 à Bayeux,
France.
Jean Guérey et Françoise de Méhérenc de Montmirel mariés 22 juillet 1634 à
Canchy, Calvados, France.
Adrien de Méhérenc et Élisabeth de Clinchamp mariés vers 1590
Guillaume IV de Méhérenc et Marguerite de Sandret mariés vers 1545
Guillaume III de Méhérenc et Françoise de Maugny mariés vers 1520
Denis de Méhérenc mariés vers 1500 Anne de Grosparmy
Guillaume II de Méhérenc et Isabeau de Malherbe mariés vers 1475
Guillaume I de Méhérenc Bouchard et Marguerite de La Haye de Bouillon mariés
vers 1445
Jean VI dit le Gascoing et Catherine de La Luzerne
Jean V et Jeanne de Montenay mariés avant 1398
Jean IV et Françoise Tesson mariés vers 1360
Guillaume Tesson et Marie de Hotot
Guillaume et Martel de Bacqueville mariés vers 1300
Raoul Paynel puis Tesson et Pétronille de Montfort-Bigorre mariés vers 1270
Guy de MONTFORT et Pétronille de Commings
Simon V le Croisé et Alix de Montmorency, comte de Bigorre mariés 1216
Bouchard V et Laurence de Hainault mariés 1173
Mathieu Ier et Alice d'Angleterre, seigneur de Montmorency, mariés 1126 en
France
Baudouin IV le Bâtisseur et Alix de Namur
Bouchard III et Agnès de Beaumont mariés vers 1126
Henri Ier Beauclerc et ? mariés vers 1100
Guillaume de Normandie, (Guillaume le Conquérant) et Mathilde de
Flandre mariés avant 1056 France
Guillaume Le Conquérant
(Source: Site web Francogène:
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/006/765.php
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
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-
Gjest
Re:Juhel de Totnes
Pat,
I have nothing much to add to the thread back in 2003, although a few idle
reflections on the names involved might be of some interest.
Juhel/Judh*el, eventually Joel, are all supposedly forms of Judicael, which
better scholars than I have usually taken to be of Breton origin. Given the
almost total absence of the letter J in Breton toponyms, I would suggest this was
possibly an I pronounced like a modern Y. As in the modern Welsh Ioan, Breton
Yoann, for John.
The name "Alvred" for his father should perhaps be read as Alured (celtic)
rather than Alfred (anglo-saxon).
With names like that I would look for their roots either in Brittany or
possibly around Mayenne/Laval, the frontier region between Anjou and Normandy which
had been under Breton control some time earlier and retained strong ties
with Vitré, Fougères and Dinan.
The Juhel I'm currently after was several generations later than yours :
Juhel de Mayenne, born between 1168 and 1170, married Gervaise de Dinan before
1197, died on crusade in 1220. Apparently a first marriage to Maud/Mathilde de
Bohun, niece of William the Lion, King of Scotland, but I want some proof and
dates. "My" Juhel had his lands in Devon confiscated by King John. I suspect the
Mayenne lands dated back to Henry I, who recruited in the area for his coup
d'état in 1100, in which case they wouldn't be in Domesday. The Dinan family
also had lands in Devon : Hartland, Ilsington, Matford and Nutwell.
Does this help ?
ATB
Peter
I have nothing much to add to the thread back in 2003, although a few idle
reflections on the names involved might be of some interest.
Juhel/Judh*el, eventually Joel, are all supposedly forms of Judicael, which
better scholars than I have usually taken to be of Breton origin. Given the
almost total absence of the letter J in Breton toponyms, I would suggest this was
possibly an I pronounced like a modern Y. As in the modern Welsh Ioan, Breton
Yoann, for John.
The name "Alvred" for his father should perhaps be read as Alured (celtic)
rather than Alfred (anglo-saxon).
With names like that I would look for their roots either in Brittany or
possibly around Mayenne/Laval, the frontier region between Anjou and Normandy which
had been under Breton control some time earlier and retained strong ties
with Vitré, Fougères and Dinan.
The Juhel I'm currently after was several generations later than yours :
Juhel de Mayenne, born between 1168 and 1170, married Gervaise de Dinan before
1197, died on crusade in 1220. Apparently a first marriage to Maud/Mathilde de
Bohun, niece of William the Lion, King of Scotland, but I want some proof and
dates. "My" Juhel had his lands in Devon confiscated by King John. I suspect the
Mayenne lands dated back to Henry I, who recruited in the area for his coup
d'état in 1100, in which case they wouldn't be in Domesday. The Dinan family
also had lands in Devon : Hartland, Ilsington, Matford and Nutwell.
Does this help ?
ATB
Peter
-
Gjest
Re: BURY of Culham, Oxfordshire
In a message dated 3/7/06 3:49:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
<< ........................4 Jane Bury - 1594
...........................+Ambrose Dormer
.................................5 Michael Dormer
.................................5 Winifrede Dormer >>
Are these Dormer's related to Robert, Baron Dormer d 8 Nov 1616 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
<< ........................4 Jane Bury - 1594
...........................+Ambrose Dormer
.................................5 Michael Dormer
.................................5 Winifrede Dormer >>
Are these Dormer's related to Robert, Baron Dormer d 8 Nov 1616 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Isabel, wife of Thomas Haselden
In a message dated 3/7/06 3:04:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Waters adds that after her first husband's death, Isabel remarried
firstly to John Newman, Esquire, and secondly to George Langham,
Esquire, of Pantfield, Essex, who was buried at Little Chesterford,
Essex, in 1462. The Visitation of Essex, 1558, contains (p 42, harl.
Soc. Pub. edition) a pedigree of the Langhams, showing George (son of
William) married Isabella "ff anno 8 Edward IV" >>
I'm misreading this.
1) George Langham was buried in 1462
2) George Langham married Isabel 8 Edward IV
This last date should be 1469/70 shouldn't it?
Thanks
Will Johnson
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
<< Waters adds that after her first husband's death, Isabel remarried
firstly to John Newman, Esquire, and secondly to George Langham,
Esquire, of Pantfield, Essex, who was buried at Little Chesterford,
Essex, in 1462. The Visitation of Essex, 1558, contains (p 42, harl.
Soc. Pub. edition) a pedigree of the Langhams, showing George (son of
William) married Isabella "ff anno 8 Edward IV" >>
I'm misreading this.
1) George Langham was buried in 1462
2) George Langham married Isabel 8 Edward IV
This last date should be 1469/70 shouldn't it?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: BURY of Culham, Oxfordshire
Yes, they are related....see the Stirnet website for a quick look at the
connection. The Dormers you mention are on "Dormer 2" while the 1st Baron
Dormer is on "Dormer 1".
For other, more extensive pedigrees of the Dormers, check out Baker's
History of Northampton or Rev. Frederick George Lee, The History....of the
Predendal Church of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame. Both are available
through the FHL (on microfilm).
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: BURY of Culham, Oxfordshire
connection. The Dormers you mention are on "Dormer 2" while the 1st Baron
Dormer is on "Dormer 1".
For other, more extensive pedigrees of the Dormers, check out Baker's
History of Northampton or Rev. Frederick George Lee, The History....of the
Predendal Church of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame. Both are available
through the FHL (on microfilm).
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: BURY of Culham, Oxfordshire
In a message dated 3/7/06 3:49:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
........................4 Jane Bury - 1594
...........................+Ambrose Dormer
.................................5 Michael Dormer
.................................5 Winifrede Dormer
Are these Dormer's related to Robert, Baron Dormer d 8 Nov 1616 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Isabel, wife of Thomas Haselden
WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:
Correct on both counts: the important element is the "ff" - floruit, or
flourished - i.e. Isabel was living in 8 Edward IV, having survived her
third husband.
MAR
In a message dated 3/7/06 3:04:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
Waters adds that after her first husband's death, Isabel remarried
firstly to John Newman, Esquire, and secondly to George Langham,
Esquire, of Pantfield, Essex, who was buried at Little Chesterford,
Essex, in 1462. The Visitation of Essex, 1558, contains (p 42, harl.
Soc. Pub. edition) a pedigree of the Langhams, showing George (son of
William) married Isabella "ff anno 8 Edward IV"
I'm misreading this.
1) George Langham was buried in 1462
2) George Langham married Isabel 8 Edward IV
This last date should be 1469/70 shouldn't it?
Correct on both counts: the important element is the "ff" - floruit, or
flourished - i.e. Isabel was living in 8 Edward IV, having survived her
third husband.
MAR
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Ghost of Lady Witham-Jopson-Bolles
"the use of the name Penelope in New England?"
Actually, this is a matter of great interest to many concerned with the
web of relationship ranging from New England to Virginia in the 17th
century, amongst the labyrinthine connections of the extended
Pelham-Humphrey-West-Percy genealogical constellation. This is a most
significant genealogical "tag" indeed.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
Actually, this is a matter of great interest to many concerned with the
web of relationship ranging from New England to Virginia in the 17th
century, amongst the labyrinthine connections of the extended
Pelham-Humphrey-West-Percy genealogical constellation. This is a most
significant genealogical "tag" indeed.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562