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Douglas Richardson

Re: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 03 feb 2006 02:06:45

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear John, Leo, Douglas and Others,
My Matrilineal line
runs Marjorie May Condon b 1939, Roxie Anna Miller b 1904-d 1985, Effie May
Delano b 1877-d 1933, Calista Anna Park b 1842-d 1905, Dorinda White b 1807-d
1893, Rebecca Howard b 1781-d 1869, Rebecca Aldrich b 1755-d 1814, Sarah Benson
b 1715-d ?, Sarah Thayer

I have seven Thayer lines, Jim. We must be related.

DR

Gjest

Re: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 02:46:02

Dear Douglas,
Most probably. I goofed and sent it early. Ah... those
dratted missteps. Sarah Thayer appears to have been the daughter of Josiah
(Ferdinando, Thomas) Thayer . At One point it seemed a toss up between him and
his brother Ephraim Thayer, each of whom married a Sarah Bass. Josiah Thayer
married Sarah Bass b 1673 whose matrilineal line is Sarah Wood b 1642, Mary Pidge
b abt 1620, Mary (or Martha) Sothy b 1589. I also have a line through
Ferdinando`s daughter Huldah Thayer married Jacob Aldrich and had David Aldrich who
married 1st Hannah Capron, their son David Aldrich Jr married Sarah Benson, the
daughter of Benoni Benson and Sarah Thayer mentioned above.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Medieval Lines to Empiric [sic] Rome

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 03 feb 2006 06:37:02

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Empiric [sic] Rome



In a message dated 2/2/2006 11:07:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

The attempt to answer this question affirmatively is the whole point, (as
I
understand it), of Ch. Settipani's Magnum Opus, (actually most of his works
are gem-packed magni opi), _Continuité_.


If someone has a line that purports to connect a medieval person to someone
was a known person (versus a mythological person), during the time of the
first 12 Emperors, I would like to hear the details of that line.
Unfortunately, merely pointing to a non-online book, and saying *read*
doesn't elicit any further discussion. That is the nature, in general, of
an
online discussion group.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Come now. We all know that there are no proven lines. And, just choosing
one possibility out of the lot of them hardly does anyone any justice.
Further, one must peruse the pages of said tome to determine for oneself the
validity of each hypothesis.
F

pj.evans

Re: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av pj.evans » 03 feb 2006 06:53:01

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
"I wonder if some of the 'regulars' would be willing to comment on
their
own matrilineal/ mitochondrial line."

Matrilineal lineages, though fascinating, can be frustrating. My own
certainly is - back a mere 7 generations to a certain Mary (Evans ?)
Miles (bc 1765), of St Mellons, Gwent, and Llandeyrn, Glamorgan. I envy
my father - his goes back nicely 12 generations to Mary (---) Osborne,
wife (married in 1652) of Jeremiah Osborne, of New Haven, Connecticut.
But my friend Elisabeth Prinzessin zu Ysenburg wins the prize among
people I know. Hers goes back to NN von Aspermont, wife of Rudolf II
Graf von Werdenberg-Sargans (died aft 18 March 1323).

[snip]

Anthony Hoskins

For whatever it may be worth (probably not much, in this group!):
my father's matrilineal line:
Paul Irving Evans (1917-1994)
Edith Lucile Krone (1884-1981)
Mary Isabel White (1857-1951)
Harriet Melissa Vincent (1829-1901)
Olive Spencer (1792-1878)
Rhoda Greene (1756-1845)
Margaret Greenman (1725-1808)
Sarah Clarke (abt 1692-aft 1741)
Elizabeth Sisson (1669-aft 1693)
Sarah Lawton (abt 1647-1718)
Elizabeth Salisbury (abt 1617-aft 1654)

my mother's matrilineal line:
Margaret Jean Taylor (1921-2005)
Agnes May Baty (1896-1943)
Phebe May Pickering (1867-1956)
Mary Stanley (1836-1886)
Deborah Weisner (1807-aft 1848)
Ann Mendenhall (1786-bef 1814)
Elizabeth Sell (1758- ?)
Sarah (said to be Tatum)

P J Evans

Gjest

Re: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 08:02:02

My own y-line only goes back to an Edward Young Johnson b abt 1803/7 d May
1879 Paulding Co, Georgia, US. Whom, by the way I only discovered within the
past few months.

My mt line again is short only going to a Mary Frances Snodgrass b 11 Dec
1839 Franklin Co, Arkansas d 29 Dec 1876 Washington Co, Arkansas

My xy is a little better going, via a DesMarais/Mignault family of Quebec,
back to a Margaret Haldane b 1708/25 Scotland, d aft 1752 of Stirling, Scotland

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir John Griffith IPM 1471

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 08:19:02

In a message dated 2/2/2006 3:15:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jeffchip9@hotmail.com writes:

To bring this to some kind of closure, I have been unsuccessful in
getting this IPM translated even for a fee. Notre Dame informed me
they couldn't handle it, nor could the classics department at Missouri
State.


It seems like the easiest thing would be to simply post up a webpage with a
legible copy.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 08:49:01

In a message dated 2/2/2006 9:36:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

Come now. We all know that there are no proven lines. And, just choosing
one possibility out of the lot of them hardly does anyone any justice.
Further, one must peruse the pages of said tome to determine for oneself the
validity of each hypothesis.


Actually I would think that a better way, would be to consult the underlying
primary sources that he purports to build upon.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 08:50:03

In a message dated 2/2/2006 6:54:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

And I wonder if Rootsweb would start another list, GEN-NOMENCLATURE


That is a wonderful idea!
I want to be the moderator for GEN-NITPICKY, GEN-FUSSBUDGET,
GEN-ANALRETENTIVE and GEN-OKKNOCKITOFFALREADY!

I'm going to put in my dibs right away.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl o

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 13:03:02

Friday, 3 February, 2006


Dear Merilyn (et al.),

Thanks for posting those Clare (aka Rohese Giffard)
descents.

One in particular caught my eye, the second, which
reads in part,

' Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare, Adeliza de Clare,
Agnes de Percy, Maud de Percy, Robert, d'Eiville,..'

Adeliza de Clare is found elsewhere as 'Alice of
Tonbridge'; as "Adelidis de Tunbridge", she is identified as
the mother of Agnes (wife of William de Percy) and Maud (wife
of William, Earl of Warwick), and evidently also of Alan de
Percy who ob.v.p. [Round, Feudal England (1895), p.473; see
the charters of Sallay Abbey, in Monasticon Anglicanum
(V:512-3, Num. I through IX].

Round gives Gilbert de Clare as her father, as you show
above. However, to date I have followed the suggestion in
Complete Peerage (CP X:441 and notes, sub _Percy_) that she
was the daughter of Gilbert's son Richard fitz Gilbert de
Clare (slain 1136) and his wife Adeliza of Chester.

I don't see that the known chronology rules out either
possibility; however, as it appears that Richard de Clare and
his wife Adeliza of Chester were likely born say 1090/1095,
and perhaps (for Adeliza) as late as say 1100, and that Agnes
de Percy was married to Joscelin de Louvain after 1154 (CP)
that the later generation is preferable.

Other suggestions/corrections to the above are certainly
welcome.

Cheers,

John






"Adelidis de Tunbridge", mother of Agnes (wife of William de Percy) and Maud
(wife of William Earl of Warwick) - Round, p.473 citing charters of Salley
Abbey (in Mon. Ang., v. 512-3)
probable parentage suggested in CP (versus Round, who suggested Gilbert de
Clare as father: CP vol. X, Percy - p. 441n)

Doug McDonald

Re: Medieval Lines to Empiric [sic] Rome

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 03 feb 2006 16:21:18

Ford Mommaerts-Browne wrote:

Come now. We all know that there are no proven lines. And, just choosing
one possibility out of the lot of them hardly does anyone any justice.
Further, one must peruse the pages of said tome to determine for oneself the
validity of each hypothesis.

But said tome is in French.

Doug McDonald

Kevin Bradford

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Kevin Bradford » 03 feb 2006 17:48:02

It appears as though I have 4 of her children in my line, for a total of over 170 separate descents in the 10th generation:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... t&id=I3498

KB


-----Original Message-----
From: Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM
Sent: Feb 3, 2006 10:20 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
I come down from three of her children

Myself also, in a large number of lines.

Not too vast to count, but too vast to mention. Remember that
virtually "all of Scotland" descends from her, at least all
of Scottish royalty. She is an ancestor of the Bruce.


Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: SALTONSTALL OF SALTONSTALL

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 18:06:02

In a message dated 2/3/2006 3:34:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
david@hepworth1955.fsnet.co.uk writes:

Does anyone know of any comprehensive genealogical work that is
reliable on the early history of the family up to the time of the
American branch spurring off?


"Comprehensive" and "reliable" are inversely proportional. As one goes up,
the other goes down.
Will Johnson

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 03 feb 2006 21:16:10

In message of 3 Feb, plantagenet60@earthlink.net (Kevin Bradford) wrote:

It appears as though I have 4 of her children in my line, for a total
of over 170 separate descents in the 10th generation:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... lantagenet
&id=I3498

or 1598?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Medieval Lines to Empiric [sic] Rome

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 04 feb 2006 00:16:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Empiric [sic] Rome


But said tome is in French.

Doug McDonald

Yes, it is. But please, let's NOT start THAT thread all over, again!

Brad Verity

Re: Sir John Griffith IPM 1471

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 04 feb 2006 02:11:28

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
It seems like the easiest thing would be to simply post up a webpage with a
legible copy.
Will Johnson

In a message dated 2/2/2006 3:15:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jeffchip9@hotmail.com writes:

To bring this to some kind of closure, I have been unsuccessful in
getting this IPM translated even for a fee. Notre Dame informed me
they couldn't handle it, nor could the classics department at Missouri
State.

Dear Jeff,

Your original post that Will replied to above does not seem to have
made it onto Google. I hope we're not having gateway problems again.
I had made a post that included the full transcription of the 1530 will
of Sir Walter Griffith while the gateway was down last month, and it
also does not seem to have made it onto Google.

I'm sorry you're having such difficulty with the IPM translation. I am
no better than you in deciphering the 15th century handwriting these
documents are composed in, let alone trying to figure out the Latin.
Still, I'll be happy to take a look at it, if you'd like, and see if I
can make anything out. The genealogical information most helpful in
IPMs is the name and age of the heir, which is usually in the final
paragraph of the return from each county. Perhaps I can at least help
with that. You can email it to me directly at
'royaldescent@hotmail.com'.

Below is the will of Sir Walter Griffith (d. 1531), in case you never
saw the original post.

Cheers, ---------Brad

***********************************************
Finally, the Testamenta Eboracensia series has the will of Sir Walter
Griffith (d. 1531). Interestingly enough, a footnote to it states that
the will of his father Sir Walter Griffith (d. 1481) has also been
printed in the series (Test. Ebor. iii. 269). Sadly, I did not have
time to follow up on that one, but given the recent extensive
discussion on the newsgroup concerning the Griffiths of Burton Agnes, I
will do so next time I'm at the library. Meanwhile, here is the
younger Walter's will:

"June 24, 1530. Walter Griffith, late of Annas Burton, in the diocess
of Yorke, Knyght, beyng of hoole mynde and salve memorie. My bodie to
be beried in the new chapell, annexed to the churche of Sancte Martyne
at Annas Burton, where my ladie, my moder, lieth. I will yt all suche
landes .. within the countie of Yorke and Lincoln as I have put in
feoffament .. do stand .. and my broder, Esachie Clifton, one of my
said feoffes, .. shall take .. the rentes .. of Annas Burton
personadge, with Litle Kelke and Swaithorpe, to performe this my last
will. ... To Jane Griffith, my wif, an hundreth markes, & to my yonger
son, John Griffithe, cc li., over and besides his annuitie of xxiij li.
vj s. viij d. To my doughtour Agnes, late wif of John Egerton Esquyer,
fortie markes. To my doughtour Margarite Griffith, for hir mariadge,
fyve hunddreth marces, if she be orderid after hir moder; and, in
reward to my sone and heire, Griffith & Elisabeth his wif, fiftye
poundes, with my tent hool, ye harnes, and as moche of my houshold
goodes as he haith nede of, after the discretion of my wif, in
recompense of fynes and garsomes that I toke of his tenementes at Annas
Burton. .. To my broder, Ezache Clifton, tenne markes. To Sir William
Webber, vicar of Annas Burton, c s. Also to every one of my godsones,
Walter Cawod, Gervasie Cawod, and Walter Nicholson, xl s. Also to my
godsone, Walter Wright, yerely xx s. to he come to the age of xxiiij.
To Thomas Goldsmyth, balif of Alrewas, xl s. I will that every one of
my houshold servauntes .. have in reward over their wadges for a half
yere after my decesse after the valour of ther hoole yere wadges. Also
I will that a prest be wadgyd to pray for the helth of my saull, my
fader's and moders .. in the churche and chapell of Annas Burton, where
my said moder is beried, for the space of fortie yeres after my
decesse, & to have yerely for his wadges eight marces, supposing that
by suche space as thies yeres shal be ended, myne heires, of there
charitable mynd, will devise for the helth of theire saulles and ours
in likewise; and so frome heire to heire for ever, so to be continued,
whiche I pray God grante to them grace for to do, accordding to the
good example of my moder that this did begyn. Also I will that my
chapleyn, Sir Robert Alsope, have yerely xl s., to pray, as by my
executors he shal be appoyntid and assignyd, unto suche tyme as he shal
be promotid to a chauntre or benefice, duryng his lif. Also I will
that if Sir Roberte Barlowe will lerne and studie in aither of the
Universities of Oxford or Cambridge, that my said feoffes and
executours do gif unto hym yerely his honest exhibicion, unto suche
tyme as he be graduate or promotid to some beneficie, as prebende,
parsonadge. .. I will that my broder, Ezachie Clifton, .. make a ..
graunte .. of one annuitie of xx marces, goyng out of my maner of
Oreby, to John Griffith, my yonger son. I will that my said feoffes
and executors over the convenient chardges of my beriall and yere's
mynd, do cause yerely that for xxj yeres foloing too obites to be done
in the churche of Annas Burton, for me, my fader, moder, and suche as
we be boundon to pray fore; the one obite to be alwayes as it shall
fortone my aniversarie to be; and th'oder opon the morowe next after Al
Saules daye; and when Al Saulles daye is differrid to Mondaye, then it
to be opon the morowe next after that, and that naither obite shall
excede the costes of thwentie shelynges; and towardes the same obittes
to have and perceyve the ishues and profittes of my landes purchased in
Scardeburgh, and after the said xxj yeres be past, then myn heires to
have the same landes, and to be charged therefore to bestowe the yerely
valour of the same for the said too obites yerely, to continue for
ever, and to be done in the churche of Annas Burton, in maner and forme
as is aforsaid, for themselffes, me, my wif, my fader, my moder, etc.
Also I will that my feoffes and executors do purchase landes and
tenements, to the yerely valour of xxiiij li., or els as moche landes
as foure hundreth and fiftye marces will purchasse, and the same surely
to intaile to my heires generall for ever, in satisfaccion for suche
landes as I did cell in Wales to Sir Ryse as Thomas knyght. . I will
that fyve marces be disposid and waryd of too latyne candilstickes, to
be set byfore the hie altar in the chauncell at Annas Burton, in
t'honor and wirshipe of God and Sancte Martyne. I will that my feoffes
& executors, within xx dayes after my decesse, do delyver the castell
of Scardeburghe to the kynge's grace, or his heires, for so I am
boundon in a thousand markes for to doo. Also I will that al suche
offerynges as er in a litle redde purce, whiche er inclosid in paupors,
be offeryd to our Ladie of Walsingham, and to al other suche Sanctes as
the intitilyng of every one of the said paupours will appere. Also I
will that their be bestowid opon Whichenour briggs, and the chapell
their, and in the waye at Lopyn chapell, iiij li. .. The residue .. to
Jane Griffith, my wif, Antone Babyngton Esquyer, my broder, Ezache
Clifton, Sir William Webster, vicar at Annas Burton, Roberte Tovie,
balif theire, and Thomas Wright of Whichenour, whome I make my
executours: if non of them this refuse, to have c.s. .. every one of
them as for their reward. [Proven 17 Dec. 1531.]"
***************************************************

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 feb 2006 03:55:13

In article <2d0.2b2d6bb.31146398@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/2/2006 9:36:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

Come now. We all know that there are no proven lines. And, just choosing
one possibility out of the lot of them hardly does anyone any justice.
Further, one must peruse the pages of said tome to determine for oneself the
validity of each hypothesis.


Actually I would think that a better way, would be to consult the underlying
primary sources that he purports to build upon.

If you are still talking about Settipani's _Continuite_, remember, I
said that it does NOT purport to draw lines between Imperial Rome and
medieval or modern Europe. That having been said, the tone of your last
sentence seems overly challenging: Settipani's works are actually quite
conscientious (by American genealogical standards, extremely so) about
presenting the primary sources on which his hypotheses are built. He
really does an excellent job at charting the primary sources and
secondary sources relevant for matters at hand (and his use of secondary
sources is confined, scrupulously, to discussing how others have dealt
with primary evidence--he avoids the failing of taking statements in
secondary sources as postulates or evidentiary bits in building an
argument).

I will say that some of his hyptheses and arguments are more convincing
to me than others, but their shared merit is that Settipani presents
them very responsibly: he gives his readers the tools to judge them by
the evidence. One cannot do fairer than that in this field.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Gjest

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 feb 2006 04:09:02

In a message dated 2/3/06 7:04:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

<< If you are still talking about Settipani's _Continuite_, remember, I
said that it does NOT purport to draw lines between Imperial Rome and
medieval or modern Europe. >>

Then I don't understand this thread so far :)
I asked specifically if there are lines that connect Imperial Rome to
Medieval times and was told to look at Settipani. And now you say that Settipani
doesn't connect the two at all. So I'm glad I didn't bother going on that
wild-goose hunt.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 04 feb 2006 04:19:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome


In article <2d0.2b2d6bb.31146398@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:


In a message dated 2/2/2006 9:36:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

Come now. We all know that there are no proven lines. And, just
choosing
one possibility out of the lot of them hardly does anyone any justice.
Further, one must peruse the pages of said tome to determine for
oneself the
validity of each hypothesis.


Actually I would think that a better way, would be to consult the
underlying
primary sources that he purports to build upon.

If you are still talking about Settipani's _Continuite_, remember, I
said that it does NOT purport to draw lines between Imperial Rome and
medieval or modern Europe. That having been said, the tone of your last
sentence seems overly challenging: Settipani's works are actually quite
conscientious (by American genealogical standards, extremely so) about
presenting the primary sources on which his hypotheses are built. He
really does an excellent job at charting the primary sources and
secondary sources relevant for matters at hand (and his use of secondary
sources is confined, scrupulously, to discussing how others have dealt
with primary evidence--he avoids the failing of taking statements in
secondary sources as postulates or evidentiary bits in building an
argument).

I will say that some of his hyptheses and arguments are more convincing
to me than others, but their shared merit is that Settipani presents
them very responsibly: he gives his readers the tools to judge them by
the evidence. One cannot do fairer than that in this field.

Nat Taylor

That is exactly what I meant by saying that one should read the book.
Because of the presentation which you (rightly) praise, one can do that.
What I meant, in response to the initial request, is that there is not a
proven line which one could, (in good conscience), simply post. One must
dig. Settipani's work is as good a staring point as any, (and better than
most). But one is still left with making up ones own mind.
Please Nat, let us not waste bandwidth quibbling over this. We seem to be
97%, (or more), in agreement. We just have different ways of saying
(essentially) the same thing.
Sincerely,
Ford

'Quarrel not at all. No man resolved to make the most of himself can
spare time for personal contention.'
- Abraham Lincoln

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 feb 2006 04:35:08

In article <a1.6fb1a6f4.311574aa@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/3/06 7:04:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

If you are still talking about Settipani's _Continuite_, remember, I
said that it does NOT purport to draw lines between Imperial Rome and
medieval or modern Europe.

Then I don't understand this thread so far :)
I asked specifically if there are lines that connect Imperial Rome to
Medieval times and was told to look at Settipani. And now you say that
Settipani
doesn't connect the two at all. So I'm glad I didn't bother going on that
wild-goose hunt.

If you are interested in DFAs, there's a lot of discussion on the list
about them. And if you're serious, consulting any of Settipani's
publications would NOT be a wild-goose hunt. _Continuite_ does not go
past the fifth century, but is a methodological model and will serve as
a worthwhile foundation for later DFA work (as Christian has certainly
intended it to be).

For a genuine DFA linking Western Europeans to the Western empire and
its Roman core (as opposed to the post-Hellenistic East), the perennial
favorite discussion item is the possibility of Roman senatorial ancestry
for Ruricius, a gallo-Roman bishop of Limoges in the Merovingian era,
who *may* be in the ancestry of Charlemagne. There has been a whopping
amount of discourse around this by people like Christian S., Dave
Kelley, the late Marshall Kirk, and Ford himself (who is too modest to
note for you that he co-wrote an article with Dave Kelley on this
several years back). A bit of this dialogue has spilled into sgm and
can be found in the archive.

The whole thing needs to be read with a fair bit of skepticism, but the
basic premise is sound: Charlemagne (and most of the Frankish high
aristocracy of his time) certainly had prominent gallo-Romans among his
ancestors, and of these, at least some of them may well have had genuine
Roman senatorial ancestors (many appear to have claimed them, and it is
likely that at least some of the claims were true). Tracing them
involves looking at hints and probabilities (or even possibilities),
since there is so little generation-by-generation documentation to be
brought to bear. The basic ingredients are (1) late and sub-Roman
onomastic patterns [which have interpretive problems of their own], and
(2) building chains based on contemporary (or sometimes later)
statements about person X being related to or descended from person Y,
though farther apart than parent-and-child, with the intermediate
generations not necessarily known. One has to weigh onomastic evidence
very carefully (how unique are these names; how certain is it that the
reuse of the names would denote blood descent rather than some other
tie, etc.); and one has to weigh each statement of descent or kinship
carefully too (what is the context of the statement; what reasons would
the informant have had for positing something that was not true or would
not have been ascertainable, etc.). The result is rarely better than a
string of hypotheses, but these hypotheses can vary greatly in their
credibility, and the whole can make for very interesting reading.

Back to Will's original query, it WOULD be nice to see a clear-headed,
concise summary of the various threads that have been bounced around on
this particular Western DFA for Charlemagne. Those who like to write on
this--particularly Dave, Christian, and (the late) Marshall, are not
known for their concision.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 feb 2006 04:39:31

In article <002101c6293a$9e9eff60$c4870d44@om.cox.net>,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford Mommaerts-Browne") wrote:

Please Nat, let us not waste bandwidth quibbling over this. We seem to be
97%, (or more), in agreement. We just have different ways of saying
(essentially) the same thing.
Sincerely,
Ford

Sorry; I was actually just reacting to the dismissal of your suggestion,
to read Settipani's _Continuite_, as a 'goose hunt'. Anyway, I've
already said too much on this in my other post. Cheers.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Chris Bennett

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Chris Bennett » 04 feb 2006 04:46:18

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1.6fb1a6f4.311574aa@aol.com...
In a message dated 2/3/06 7:04:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

If you are still talking about Settipani's _Continuite_, remember, I
said that it does NOT purport to draw lines between Imperial Rome and
medieval or modern Europe.

Then I don't understand this thread so far :)
I asked specifically if there are lines that connect Imperial Rome to
Medieval times and was told to look at Settipani. And now you say that
Settipani
doesn't connect the two at all. So I'm glad I didn't bother going on that
wild-goose hunt.
Thanks
Will Johnson


Isn't it of value to you to know what the possibilities are of even reaching
the Dark Ages from Imperial Rome and why its a difficult problem? There are
any number of lines out there on the Internet, but you did, after all, ask
for lines with "even a hint of authenticity", which rather cuts down the
numbers. If nothing else, "Continuite" will help you to recognise
authenticity if and when you see it.

Chris

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 04 feb 2006 05:57:01

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome


In article <a1.6fb1a6f4.311574aa@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/3/06 7:04:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

If you are still talking about Settipani's _Continuite_, remember, I
said that it does NOT purport to draw lines between Imperial Rome and
medieval or modern Europe.

Then I don't understand this thread so far :)
I asked specifically if there are lines that connect Imperial Rome to
Medieval times and was told to look at Settipani. And now you say that
Settipani
doesn't connect the two at all.

No. What we said was that he doesn't have any proven lines. He presents
hypotheses, (_vide infra_), of descents, and definite links/connections that
do not have complete descents. The Late Adm. Sir Anthony Wagner, GNSN, KCB,
did a piece many years ago, 'Bridges to Antiquity', in his _Pedigree &
Progress_, which also presented a couple of hypotheses, as well as a
discussion of various links, none of which permitted of a continuous line.
His discussion might be a better starting point, especially for a non-native
francophon, than Settipani's. It's in English, and gives a light once-over,
to get the feel for things which Settipani discusses in depth.

So I'm glad I didn't bother going on that
wild-goose hunt.

If you are interested in DFAs, there's a lot of discussion on the list
about them. And if you're serious, consulting any of Settipani's
publications would NOT be a wild-goose hunt. _Continuite_ does not go
past the fifth century, but is a methodological model and will serve as
a worthwhile foundation for later DFA work (as Christian has certainly
intended it to be).

For a genuine DFA linking Western Europeans to the Western empire and
its Roman core (as opposed to the post-Hellenistic East), the perennial
favorite discussion item is the possibility of Roman senatorial ancestry
for Ruricius, a gallo-Roman bishop of Limoges in the Merovingian era,
who *may* be in the ancestry of Charlemagne. There has been a whopping
amount of discourse around this by people like Christian S., Dave
Kelley, the late Marshall Kirk, and Ford himself (who is too modest to
note for you that he co-wrote an article with Dave Kelley on this
several years back). A bit of this dialogue has spilled into sgm and
can be found in the archive.

The whole thing needs to be read with a fair bit of skepticism, but the
basic premise is sound: Charlemagne (and most of the Frankish high
aristocracy of his time) certainly had prominent gallo-Romans among his
ancestors, and of these, at least some of them may well have had genuine
Roman senatorial ancestors (many appear to have claimed them, and it is
likely that at least some of the claims were true). Tracing them
involves looking at hints and probabilities (or even possibilities),
since there is so little generation-by-generation documentation to be
brought to bear. The basic ingredients are (1) late and sub-Roman
onomastic patterns [which have interpretive problems of their own], and
(2) building chains based on contemporary (or sometimes later)
statements about person X being related to or descended from person Y,
though farther apart than parent-and-child, with the intermediate
generations not necessarily known. One has to weigh onomastic evidence
very carefully (how unique are these names; how certain is it that the
reuse of the names would denote blood descent rather than some other
tie, etc.); and one has to weigh each statement of descent or kinship
carefully too (what is the context of the statement; what reasons would
the informant have had for positing something that was not true or would
not have been ascertainable, etc.). The result is rarely better than a
string of hypotheses, but these hypotheses can vary greatly in their
credibility, and the whole can make for very interesting reading.

Back to Will's original query, it WOULD be nice to see a clear-headed,
concise summary of the various threads that have been bounced around on
this particular Western DFA for Charlemagne. Those who like to write on
this--particularly Dave, Christian, and (the late) Marshall, are not
known for their concision.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm


Also, Will, I note that you have submitted the same query to Gen-Ancient. I
responded here because that is where I first saw your request. there has
been some rather learned discussion there, also. Mostly between Marshall &
Grady Loy, who is editing some of Marshall's notes on this matter,
posthumously. Grady has posted on both lists, and some of his thoughts seem
very sound. It is one of my great & deep regrets that I haven't had the
time, (nemesis even of the Pyramids), to study them in more depth.
Lately, I have been performing the _mitzvah_ of studying Torah, which takes
up a fair bit of time, and working for an employer who resents even the
demands of G_d for my time.
If you want further direction, you might check out the _Prosopagraphy of the
Latter Roman Empire_, hereafter known as PLRE, (vols. I, II & III). Morris,
(one of the compiler-editors thereof), also wrote a piece hypothesizing
lines of descent from Octavius' first wife to the fall of the Western
Empire. The complete citation is to be found in Wagner's piece, _op. cit._.
Ford

W David Samuelsen

Re: German question

Legg inn av W David Samuelsen » 04 feb 2006 07:49:02

<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-02/1139005566>

Just what is needed - around 1685-1735, not earlier

W. David Samuelsen

Gjest

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 feb 2006 08:17:01

In a message dated 2/3/2006 7:49:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

_Continuite_ does not go
past the fifth century, but is a methodological model and will serve as
a worthwhile foundation for later DFA work (as Christian has certainly
intended it to be).



Thank you for the information that Settipani does not go beyond the fifth
century. I'm still working my way through understanding the basics of Imperial
Roman genealogy. _www.wikipedia.org_ (http://www.wikipedia.org) is a great
primer, but has numerous errors. As I read through things like the Epitome
Caesaribus, the Augustan History and Dio I'm trying to make corrections and
post "talk" page items as I encounter them. There is also a great site I've
found that I think is called _www.roman-emperors.org_
(http://www.roman-emperors.org) or something like that, that at least gives the skeleton of the
Emperor's families. So far I haven't found any errors of fact on those pages.
At any rate, this is a project I'm just starting to get interested in.
I thought that perhaps my efforts would be better focused by knowing which
lines peter out quickly and which ones show promise. If nothing else, it will
firm up some of the wiki pages on some of these people hopefully. And with
sources.

Will Johnson

jlucsoler

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av jlucsoler » 04 feb 2006 11:33:20

i personnally think that all partners of our group should posses
continuité... just to see how Christian work and how it is allowed to think,
to evaluate those lines

jl
<WJhonson@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
291.5102819.3115ae85@aol.com...
In a message dated 2/3/2006 7:49:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

_Continuite_ does not go
past the fifth century, but is a methodological model and will serve as
a worthwhile foundation for later DFA work (as Christian has certainly
intended it to be).



Thank you for the information that Settipani does not go beyond the fifth
century. I'm still working my way through understanding the basics of
Imperial
Roman genealogy. _www.wikipedia.org_ (http://www.wikipedia.org) is a
great
primer, but has numerous errors. As I read through things like the
Epitome
Caesaribus, the Augustan History and Dio I'm trying to make corrections
and
post "talk" page items as I encounter them. There is also a great site
I've
found that I think is called _www.roman-emperors.org_
(http://www.roman-emperors.org) or something like that, that at least
gives the skeleton of the
Emperor's families. So far I haven't found any errors of fact on those
pages.
At any rate, this is a project I'm just starting to get interested in.
I thought that perhaps my efforts would be better focused by knowing
which
lines peter out quickly and which ones show promise. If nothing else, it
will
firm up some of the wiki pages on some of these people hopefully. And
with
sources.

Will Johnson

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 04 feb 2006 11:51:02

<<For whatever it is worth, there is something called the Pigot Roll.
This was prepared by some herald in 1598 and is a gorgeous artwork.
The original is something like 8 feet long by 3 wide - and survives. A
roughly half size photo of this is to be found in the Bucks record
office (or whatever grandiloquent name this building goes by today) in
Aylesbury, Bucks, England.

Basically it gives the family genealogy back to the claimed Ripon
ancestors. There is also a photo of it, from the same negatives, right here.>>


Thanks very much for that, Tim - an excellently useful tip.

When you say there is a photo of it 'here' - do you mean you have one yourself? If so, I wonder if you could tell me what it has to say about the father and grandfather of Robert Pigott of Little Horwood and Whaddon, esq, living in the late 15th and early 16th century (I'm afraid I'm at home and my files are at work, so I can't supply any more precise dates). I wonder if this roll is the origin of the reference to Alice Fennell.

Thanks again,

Matt

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 04 feb 2006 12:00:02

<<I suggest a peep at Victoria County History: Buckinghamshire. Also,
Sheehan's "History & Topography of Buckinghamshire" gives useful medieval
history of Little Horwood and Whaddon.>>


Thanks very much, John. I shall pop into the library and have a look at Sheehan this afternoon.

I'm still at home at the moment though, and my copies of the Little Horwood and Whaddon chapters of the VCH are at work, but I don't remember either of them having much to say about the Pigotts' origins. Did you have some other part of the VCH for Bucks in mind?

Regards,

Matt

Tim Powys-Lybbe

RE: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 04 feb 2006 12:56:01

In message of 4 Feb, mllt1@leicester.ac.uk ("Tompkins, M.L.") wrote:

<and I had written:>

For whatever it is worth, there is something called the Pigot Roll.
This was prepared by some herald in 1598 and is a gorgeous artwork.
The original is something like 8 feet long by 3 wide - and
survives. A roughly half size photo of this is to be found in the
Bucks record office (or whatever grandiloquent name this building
goes by today) in Aylesbury, Bucks, England.

Basically it gives the family genealogy back to the claimed Ripon
ancestors. There is also a photo of it, from the same negatives,
right here.

When you say there is a photo of it 'here' - do you mean you have one
yourself?

Exactly so. But it is six photos, each a little smaller than A2.

If so, I wonder if you could tell me what it has to say about the
father and grandfather of Robert Pigott of Little Horwood and
Whaddon, esq, living in the late 15th and early 16th century (I'm
afraid I'm at home and my files are at work, so I can't supply any
more precise dates).

Assuming I have the right Robert, who m. Margaret dau. and heire of
John Giffard of Whadden, then Robert's father is recorded as:

"Richard Pigot of Littel Horwood in com. Bucks the younger son (?) of
Geoffrey"

and for his two wives:

"Alice the daughter and heire of Richard fFinnell of Winslowe (?) ...
(illegible)"

"Joan the daughter of Parel (?) Darress of Lissingstone Darrell
Esquire his 2 wife"

Robert's grandfather is recorded as:

"Geaffrey Pigot of Clotheram and Rippon sub. h. 5 et 6. maried"

and on the roundel for his wife:

"Margaret daughter of Raufe Plompton Esquyre: and has issue"

No other dates, of course.

I wonder if this roll is the origin of the reference to Alice Fennell.

It has an Alice Finnell on it, above.

My view is that this roll is the origin of some of what is in
Lipscomb's Bucks as the words in Lipscomb for some people are identical.

If you or anyone is interested, I can scan this small section of
the roll and put it on my site.

There is on the roll a paragraph about Sir Randolph Pigot of Clotheram
but it is somewhat faint and difficult to transcribe. In the Bucks
Record Office there is a transcription of what is on the roll but on my
last visit, some years ago, I failed to take a copy as I thought there
was then a chance of seeing the original roll - but no such luck!
Anyhow if you acquire it, this will give you all the little gems of
text on this roll.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

MLS

RE: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av MLS » 04 feb 2006 14:13:02

Cher Jean Luc....
I Agree!

Salue

Marco Lupis

-----Original Message-----
From: jlucsoler [mailto:jlucsoler@modulonet.fr]
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 11:33 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome


i personnally think that all partners of our group should posses
continuité... just to see how Christian work and how it is allowed to
think,
to evaluate those lines

jl
<WJhonson@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
291.5102819.3115ae85@aol.com...
In a message dated 2/3/2006 7:49:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

_Continuite_ does not go
past the fifth century, but is a methodological model and will serve
as a worthwhile foundation for later DFA work (as Christian has
certainly intended it to be).



Thank you for the information that Settipani does not go beyond the
fifth century. I'm still working my way through understanding the
basics of Imperial Roman genealogy. _www.wikipedia.org_
(http://www.wikipedia.org) is a great
primer, but has numerous errors. As I read through things like the
Epitome
Caesaribus, the Augustan History and Dio I'm trying to make
corrections
and
post "talk" page items as I encounter them. There is also a great
site
I've
found that I think is called _www.roman-emperors.org_
(http://www.roman-emperors.org) or something like that, that at
least
gives the skeleton of the
Emperor's families. So far I haven't found any errors of fact on
those
pages.
At any rate, this is a project I'm just starting to get interested
in.
I thought that perhaps my efforts would be better focused by knowing
which
lines peter out quickly and which ones show promise. If nothing
else, it
will
firm up some of the wiki pages on some of these people hopefully.
And
with
sources.

Will Johnson





--
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Sponsor:
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Doug McDonald

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 04 feb 2006 17:27:24

Ford Mommaerts-Browne wrote:

What I meant, in response to the initial request, is that there is not a
proven line which one could, (in good conscience), simply post.

But Mr. Mommaerts-Browne ... YOU have posted a line, with only a few
dotted lines, from one Fl. Afranius Syagrius, Consul of Rome in 382,
to Doda, wife of Arnulf, Bishop of Metz, and thence to Charlemagne
and everybody else. And the only dotted line that is not just saying
"which wife" is the one to Doda herself. And earlier than you have
a seriously dotted line all the way back to an Emperor.

Doug McDonald

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 04 feb 2006 17:31:02

Thank you very much, Tim - that is very useful.

It rather confirms my suspicion that the Richard in the Pigot Roll is the same man as the peasant Richard. It might just be that by coincidence there were two Richard Pigotts living in Little Horwood in the late 15th century, one a wealthy peasant from a local family and the other a gentleman from Yorkshire, but the fact that the Pigot Roll states that the gentleman was married to an Alice Finnell, daughter of Richard Finnell of Winslow, pretty much confirms that the Yorkshire ancestry is a fabrication. In 1437 the Winslow court rolls (Little Horwood was parcel of that manor) record the death of Richard Fynelle and the inheritance of his lands in Little Horwood by his nearest heir Alice, wife of Richard Pycot.

The ancestry of this peasant Richard Pycot or Pigott can be worked out from the land inheritance entries in the manor court rolls. It was somewhat different from that set out in the Pigot Roll. His parents were John Pigot of Little Horwood, died 1450 (leaving a will recorded in the St Albans probate register, now at Hertfordshire record office), and Joan (maiden name unknown, died 1458), and his grandparents were John Pigott of Little Horwood, who died in 1427 (and left a will, which is copied into the court rolls) and Agnes Candeler. John Finnell's 1437 will has also survived, and it is clear from all these documents, wills and manor court roll entries, that none of these Pigotts and Finnells could lay claim to the rank of gentleman - at best they were what a generation or two later would call yeomen.

Their climb to gentry status seems to have been achieved by Richard. He may have built on his accumulation of landed wealth by moving into office-holding, if I am right to think he was the Richard Pigot who was Escheator of Beds and Bucks in 1453, and certainly by moving into the gentry marriage market. His second marriage, to a Dayrel of Lillingstone Dayrel, was a social step above his first, but what finally set the seal on his family's rise to the gentry must have the marriage of his son Robert to the heiress of the Giffords of Whaddon, which brought with it the manor of Whaddon and the hereditary office of Keeper of Whaddon Chase. Shortly before he died he bought the manor of Beachampton for another son.

And there may have been an element of noble patronage as well. Whaddon Chase, and the overlordship of the manor of Whaddon, were appurtenances of Richard Duke of York's earldom of Ulster. The Duke of York died at the Battle of Wakefield in 1460, of course - and the VCH Bucks iv, p 150 quotes Lipscomb to the effect that Richard Pigott was killed at the same battle. If this is right (and it probably is - the last reference to him in the Great Horwood court rolls is in 1459) then Richard Pigott may have been at Wakefield as a member of the Duke of York's affinity - an association which must have both resulted from and assisted his and his family's social advancement.

Which makes me curious to discover the source of the statement I have seen that Richard's son Robert Pigott was steward to the Duke of York during Henry VI's reign. I wonder if it is actually a reference to the Keepership of Whaddon Chase. I recently came across it in Kevin Bradford's website (as a result of his posting a link to it in connection with Rohese Giffard), which seems to give three sources - maybe Kevin can help on this point?

Anyway, I'm now fairly sure that the Little Horwood Pigotts were not descended from the Clotheram Pigotts, as claimed in the Pigot Roll - which makes me wonder whether the Clotheram Pigotts ever actually existed? Does anyone know anything about them?

Thanks again, Tim. It would be certainly interesting to see the relevant section of the roll, if you could scan it and put it on your website.

Regards,

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe [mailto:tim@powys.org]
Sent: 04 February 2006 11:56
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

<snip>

Assuming I have the right Robert, who m. Margaret dau. and heire of John Giffard of Whadden, then Robert's father is recorded as:

"Richard Pigot of Littel Horwood in com. Bucks the younger son (?) of
Geoffrey"

and for his two wives:

"Alice the daughter and heire of Richard fFinnell of Winslowe (?) ...
(illegible)"

"Joan the daughter of Parel (?) Darress of Lissingstone Darrell
Esquire his 2 wife"

Robert's grandfather is recorded as:

"Geaffrey Pigot of Clotheram and Rippon sub. h. 5 et 6. maried"

and on the roundel for his wife:

"Margaret daughter of Raufe Plompton Esquyre: and has issue"

No other dates, of course.

I wonder if this roll is the origin of the reference to Alice Fennell.

It has an Alice Finnell on it, above.

My view is that this roll is the origin of some of what is in Lipscomb's Bucks as the words in Lipscomb for some people are identical.

If you or anyone is interested, I can scan this small section of the roll and put it on my site.

There is on the roll a paragraph about Sir Randolph Pigot of Clotheram but it is somewhat faint and difficult to transcribe. In the Bucks Record Office there is a transcription of what is on the roll but on my last visit, some years ago, I failed to take a copy as I thought there was then a chance of seeing the original roll - but no such luck!
Anyhow if you acquire it, this will give you all the little gems of text on this roll.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Doug McDonald

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 04 feb 2006 17:40:25

jlucsoler wrote:
i personnally think that all partners of our group should posses
continuité... just to see how Christian work and how it is allowed to think,
to evaluate those lines


Uh ... it's in FRENCH. I no longer pretend to read French,
and would never have pretended to be able to read something that
required precision.

Doug McDonald

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 04 feb 2006 17:52:02

Dear John,

Sheehan didn't have much to say (just that the Beachampton Pigotts'
"ancestors had migrated out of Yorkshire where they had been established
soon after the Conquest" - the kind of claim the Victorians liked to
make and JH Round liked to demolish!), but the VCH did have an
interesting comment in the Beachampton chapter about Richard Pigott
having been killed at Wakefield - as mentioned in my previous posting.
So thanks very much for your suggestions.

Regards

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: John Townsend [mailto:john@johntownsend.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 04 February 2006 10:30
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

I suggest a peep at Victoria County History: Buckinghamshire. Also,
Sheehan's "History & Topography of Buckinghamshire" gives useful
medieval history of Little Horwood and Whaddon.

Regards,

Best wishes,

John Townsend
Genealogist/Antiquarian Bookseller
http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk

John Townsend

Re: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av John Townsend » 04 feb 2006 18:05:51

"Tompkins, M.L." wrote
Dear John,

Sheehan didn't have much to say (just that the Beachampton Pigotts'
"ancestors had migrated out of Yorkshire where they had been established
soon after the Conquest" - the kind of claim the Victorians liked to
make and JH Round liked to demolish!), but the VCH did have an
interesting comment in the Beachampton chapter about Richard Pigott
having been killed at Wakefield - as mentioned in my previous posting.
So thanks very much for your suggestions.

I wasn't thinking of that specifically. The V.C.H. index has what looks
like about 100 references to Pigott - not necessarily in the places which
you mentioned.

Best wishes,

John Townsend
Genealogist/Antiquarian Bookseller
http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk

Gjest

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 feb 2006 18:35:02

In a message dated 2/4/2006 8:34:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:

But Mr. Mommaerts-Browne ... YOU have posted a line, with only a few
dotted lines, from one Fl. Afranius Syagrius, Consul of Rome in 382,
to Doda, wife of Arnulf, Bishop of Metz,


And this person is rampant now on the web Results 1 - 10 of about 579 for
afranius syagrius

A sample of one which just happens to have useful sources I give below.
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------

_http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p119.htm_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p119.htm)

Tonantius II Ferreolus, sénateur Narbonne1,2
b. say 450, d. after 517, #7675
_Pedigree_ (javascript:pup('Tonantius II Ferreolus, sénateur Narbonne|b. s
450<BR>d. a 517|p119.htm#i7675|Tonantius I Ferreolus, praefectus praetorio
Galliarum|b. c 420|p119.htm#i7676|Papianille, clarissima femina|b. c
415|p119.htm#i7677|Ferreolus|b. s 390|p355.htm#i21732|clarissima femina (?) Syagria|b. s
390|p161.htm#i10074|||||||');)
Appears on charts:
_Pedigree for Carolus I Magnus, empereur auguste_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/lp3.htm#a23)
Also called Tonance Ferréol.3 Tonantius II Ferreolus, sénateur Narbonne was
connected with the Aviti through his mother, Papianilla.4 He was born say
450. He was the son of _Tonantius I Ferreolus, praefectus praetorio Galliarum_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... .htm#i7676) and _Papianille,
clarissima femina_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... .htm#i7677)
.. He was on the estates of his father when Sidonius Appolinarius visited. As
Sidonius relates, "at Prusianum, as the other [estate] is called, [the
young] Tonantius and his brothers turned out of their beds for us because we could
not be always dragging our gear about: they are surely the elect among the
nobles of our own age."5 He was present in 469 in Rome, Italy. He married
_Industria of Narbonne_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... htm#i10072) , daughter of _Flavius Probus_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... htm#i10489) and _Eulalie (?)_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... htm#i10490) , before 475.6 He was again present in 475 in Rome,
Italy. Senator of Narbonne in Gaul, between 479 and 517.3,6 Vir clarissimus
between 507 and 511.6 He was visited by his cousin St. Apollinaris of Valence in
517.6 He died after 517.
Children of Tonantius II Ferreolus, sénateur Narbonne and _Industria of
Narbonne_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... htm#i10072) :
_Ferreolus, sénateur Rodez_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... .htm#i7674) + b. c 475
1. _[S206]_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s4.htm#206)
With additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. and assisted by David
Faris Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists
Who Came to America before 1700 (Baltimore, Maryland: Genealogical Publishing
Co., Inc., 1992), 180-3. Hereinafter cited as Weis: AR 7th ed..
2. _[S204]_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s10.htm#204)
Roderick W. Stuart, Royalty for Commoners: The Complete Lineage of John of
Gaunt, Son of Edward III, Kings of England, and Queen Philippa (.: ., 3rd Ed.,
1998), 236-50. Hereinafter cited as RfC.
3. _[S175]_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s12.htm#175)
Christian Settipani, Les Ancêtres de Charlemagne (France: Éditions Christian,
1989), #528. Hereinafter cited as AdC.
4. _[S962]_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s19.htm#962)
Sidonius Apollinaris, The Letters of Sidonius (Oxford: Clarendon, 1915), pp.
clx-clxxxiii; List of Correspondents - attribiuted to his father. But his
father being grandson of the Consul Afranius Syagrius could only be through *his*
mother. Hereinafter cited as Letters of Sidonius (orig.).
5. _[S961]_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s19.htm#961)
Medieval Sourcebook: Letters of Sidonius, online
_http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/sidonius1.html_
(http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/sidonius1.html) . Hereinafter cited as Letters of Sidonius.
6. _[S965]_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s14.htm#965)
Don Stone (_e-mail address_
(javascript:hemlinknc('DonStone','plantagenet.com')) ), Re: Gallo-Roman ancestors of Charlemagne in "Re: Gallo-Roman ancestors
of Charlemagne", newsgroup message to soc.genealogy.medieval, 1998/03/11
.. Printout dated 4 June 2001. Hereinafter cited as Re: Gallo-Roman
ancestors.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 feb 2006 19:29:08

"Tompkins, M.L." wrote:

< Anyway, I'm now fairly sure that the Little Horwood Pigotts were not
descended from the Clotheram Pigotts, as claimed in the Pigot Roll -
which makes me wonder whether the Clotheram Pigotts ever actually
existed? Does anyone know anything about them?
<
< Matt

Dear Matt ~

Yes, the Pigot (or Pigott) family of Clotherholme (in Ripon), Yorkshire
did exist and they have living descendants. Below is information
regarding one member of this family taken from Magna Carta Ancestry
(2005).

As you can see, Geoffrey Pigot (died 1467/9) of Clotherholme lived in
the right time period as stated in the Pigot Pedigree Roll, but it was
his mother who was a Plumpton, not his wife. Also, this Geoffrey Pigot
and his wife, Margaret Sywardby, had no son named Richard. You can
investigate this matter further by consulting the sources that I've
listed for this family.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + +
Source: Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pages 451-452:

10. MARGARET SYWARDBY, daughter and heiress. She married before 9
April 1450 (date of her father's will) GEOFFREY PIGOT (or PIGOTT),
Knt., of Clotherholme (in Ripon) and Melmerby, Yorkshire, and, in right
of his wife, of Sewerby, Gristhorpe (in Filey), etc., Yorkshire, son
and heir of Ranulph Pigot, Esq., of Clotherholme (in Ripon) and
Melmerby, Yorkshire, by Margaret, daughter of Robert Plumpton, Knt.
[see PLUMPTON 8.ii for his ancestry]. They had three sons, Ranulf,
Knt., William, and Thomas, and three daughters, Joan (wife of John
Wandesford, Knt.), Anne, and Elizabeth. In 1453 an oratory was granted
to them at Sewerby, Yorkshire, and again in 1454. In 1454 they granted
Peter Sywardby, Esq., a yearly rent of 40s. from their manor of
Sewerby, Yorkshire. In 1455 an oratory was granted to them and to her
mother, Elizabeth Sywardby. He was a legatee and sole executor of his
father's will dated 20 April 1466. SIR GEOFFREY PIGOT was living 9
May 1467, when he proved his father's will. He died in or before
1469, when his widow, Margaret, took a vow of chastity. She left a
will dated 7 Nov. 1485, proved 17 Dec. 1485.

References:

Testamenta Eboracensia 2 (Surtees Soc. 30) (1855): 136-137; 3
(Surtees Soc. 45) (1865): 156-158, 161, 340; 4 (Surtees Soc. 53)
(1869): 6-7 (will of Dame Margaret Pigot names her daughter
Scargill). Glover & St. George, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584-5, 1612
(1875): 302 (Pigot pedigree: "Galfridus Pygott. = [left blank]").
Bertram, Story of the Family of Wandesford (1904): 26-28, chart foll.
32. VCH Yorkshire N.R. 1 (1914): 222. Harvey et al., Vis. of the
North 2 (Surtees Soc. 133) (1921): 30; 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 134
(Pygot pedigree: "Dominus Galfridus Pigot miles = Margareta filia et
heres Iohannis Swardby"). Lancaster Birstall, Gomersal &
Heckmondwike (Thoresby Soc. 26) (1924): 26-29. Yorkshire Deeds 6
(Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 76) (1930): 130, 188-191. VCH Yorkshire
E.R. 2 (1974): 138-139.

Doug McDonald

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 04 feb 2006 19:51:50

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/4/2006 8:34:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:

But Mr. Mommaerts-Browne ... YOU have posted a line, with only a few
dotted lines, from one Fl. Afranius Syagrius, Consul of Rome in 382,
to Doda, wife of Arnulf, Bishop of Metz,



I'm attaching below what I have in my own file for this. It is based
mostly on a .gif chart from Ford M-B. This chart is rather wide.

Doug McDonald

****************************************************************

Possible ancestry of Pippin the Younger, by S. Mommaerts and D. Kelly

This chart is probably the current (2005) best academic take
on the ancestry of St. Arnulf and Pippin the Younger.

The placement of Itta, wife of Pippn "the Elder" is not from the main chart,
but from a note from Stewart in s.g.m., quoting Kelly, and saying "I see
no reason for dotted lines". If this is correct, this is a full DFA for Charlemagne.

Dashed lines indicate uncertainty
Double dashed possibilities (to lower Baldegisel Duke and to Ansbert Senator)
indicate that one or the other of the two lines is known to be correct.
====== is marriage or concubinage

[Flavius Postumius Syagrius]
|
anonyma===Agricola, cos, 421 [Afranius]===[Syagria]
| PPO Galliae |
______________|____ Fl. Afranius Syagrius, cos, 382
| | |
Eparchius Avitus [Eparchia]===Petronius Maximus |
Emp. 455-456 | Emp. 455 [Tonantius Ferreolus]===[Syagria]
Bp. Placentia 456 "the Unknown Proconsul" |
| |
_____________ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ __________________________|
| | | |
Sigibert Leontius Ruricius Papianilla=====Tonantius Ferreolus Clovis I
K. Cologne Bp. Arles Bp, Limoges | Praet. Praef. Galliae K. the Franks
d ca. 507 452-494 d ca. 507 | 453 511-533
_|______________________ | ___________|_____
| | | | |
Balderic Chloderic Tonantius Theoderic Theodechildis
Abbt. Montfaucon K, Cologne | K. Austrasia
(rel. Clovis I) | 533-547
_________| _ _ _ _ _ _ | |
| | | |
anonyma=====Munderic Doda ===========Ferreolus=========Theodechildis
| (rel.Theoderic I) Abbss. St. | vir clarissimus |
___|_________ __________ Peter Reims Narbonne
| | | |_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _|
| | | |
Mummolin Baldegisel Gundulf Bilichilde === Ansbert
Ct. Soissons Duke Bp. Tongres | senator
| (m. Palatina) | |
|_ _ _ _ _ _ | |
| | | |
Baldegisel Arnoald
Duke | | Bp. Metz
(m. Oda) 601-611
| | | |

|_ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ _|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
| | |
Arnulf =============Doda Itta === Pippin "The Elder"
Bp. Metz | nun at |
613-629 | S. Peter of Reims |
| _________________|
| |
Ansegisel================Begga
|
|
Pippin "The Younger" "Major Domus"


************************************************************************

Doug McDonald

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 04 feb 2006 20:03:37

Doug McDonald wrote:

I'm attaching below what I have in my own file for this. It is based
mostly on a .gif chart from Ford M-B. This chart is rather wide.



At least on my computer, this got through OK. The "Stewart" mentioned
in Stewart Baldwin.

Doug McDonald

MLS

RE: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av MLS » 04 feb 2006 20:10:02

Taking the opportunity of the renovated interest on this matter, I'd
like to propone once again my research:

Does someone knows something about the MALE ancestors of
Flavius Eparchius Philagrius // Comes Orientis abt 382 Bishop of
Cyprus; Prefect of Egipt?

His attested wife was Egnatia Avita Severa,
daughter of Quintus Flavius Egnatius Placidus Severus // (48260) (abt

330A.D. - )
and Antonia Marcianilla // (48259) (abt 335A.D. - )
His sons:
1) Eparchius virus nob. of Toul // noble of Toulouse (48262) (abt
370A.D. - )
2) Agricola Consul of /ROMAN EMPIRE/ Prefect of Gaul; Consul 421
(34161)
(abt 370A.D. - aft 421A.D.)
3) Lysticius // (176757) (abt 375A.D. - )

I'm very interested to find the male lineage of this Flavius Eparchius

Philagrius.

I'm not sure about is father, that could be Flavius
Philagrius // Prefect of Egypt between 334 and 340 (176649) (abt
300A.D. - aft 340A.D.), cited on "History Of The Decline And Fall Of
The Roman Empire
- Volume II" by Edward Gibbon, on note 111


Any Help will be welcome!
Thanks
Marco

(the 13th duke of San Donato, the marquis don Marco II Lupis Macedonio

Palermo, prince di Santa Margherita)






-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 6:34 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome



In a message dated 2/4/2006 8:34:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:

But Mr. Mommaerts-Browne ... YOU have posted a line, with only a few
dotted lines, from one Fl. Afranius Syagrius, Consul of Rome in 382, to
Doda, wife of Arnulf, Bishop of Metz,


And this person is rampant now on the web Results 1 - 10 of about 579
for
afranius syagrius

A sample of one which just happens to have useful sources I give below.
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
---------------------------------------

_http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p119.htm_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p119.htm)

Tonantius II Ferreolus, sénateur Narbonne1,2
b. say 450, d. after 517, #7675
_Pedigree_ (javascript:pup('Tonantius II Ferreolus, sénateur Narbonne|b.
s
450<BR>d. a 517|p119.htm#i7675|Tonantius I Ferreolus, praefectus
praetorio
Galliarum|b. c 420|p119.htm#i7676|Papianille, clarissima femina|b. c
415|p119.htm#i7677|Ferreolus|b. s 390|p355.htm#i21732|clarissima femina
415|(?) Syagria|b. s
390|p161.htm#i10074|||||||');)
Appears on charts:
_Pedigree for Carolus I Magnus, empereur auguste_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/lp3.htm#a23)
Also called Tonance Ferréol.3 Tonantius II Ferreolus, sénateur Narbonne
was
connected with the Aviti through his mother, Papianilla.4 He was born
say
450. He was the son of _Tonantius I Ferreolus, praefectus praetorio
Galliarum_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... .htm#i7676) and
_Papianille,
clarissima femina_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... .htm#i7677)
.. He was on the estates of his father when Sidonius Appolinarius
visited. As
Sidonius relates, "at Prusianum, as the other [estate] is called, [the
young] Tonantius and his brothers turned out of their beds for us
because we could
not be always dragging our gear about: they are surely the elect among
the
nobles of our own age."5 He was present in 469 in Rome, Italy. He
married
_Industria of Narbonne_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... htm#i10072) , daughter
of _Flavius Probus_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... htm#i10489) and
_Eulalie (?)_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... htm#i10490) , before
475.6 He was again present in 475 in Rome,
Italy. Senator of Narbonne in Gaul, between 479 and 517.3,6 Vir
clarissimus
between 507 and 511.6 He was visited by his cousin St. Apollinaris of
Valence in
517.6 He died after 517.
Children of Tonantius II Ferreolus, sénateur Narbonne and _Industria of

Narbonne_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... htm#i10072) :

_Ferreolus, sénateur Rodez_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/h ... .htm#i7674) + b. c 475
1. _[S206]_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s4.htm#206)

With additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. and assisted
by David
Faris Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American
Colonists
Who Came to America before 1700 (Baltimore, Maryland: Genealogical
Publishing
Co., Inc., 1992), 180-3. Hereinafter cited as Weis: AR 7th ed..
2. _[S204]_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s10.htm#204)
Roderick W. Stuart, Royalty for Commoners: The Complete Lineage of John
of
Gaunt, Son of Edward III, Kings of England, and Queen Philippa (.: .,
3rd Ed.,
1998), 236-50. Hereinafter cited as RfC.
3. _[S175]_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s12.htm#175)
Christian Settipani, Les Ancêtres de Charlemagne (France: Éditions
Christian,
1989), #528. Hereinafter cited as AdC.
4. _[S962]_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s19.htm#962)
Sidonius Apollinaris, The Letters of Sidonius (Oxford: Clarendon,
1915), pp.
clx-clxxxiii; List of Correspondents - attribiuted to his father. But
his
father being grandson of the Consul Afranius Syagrius could only be
through *his*
mother. Hereinafter cited as Letters of Sidonius (orig.).
5. _[S961]_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s19.htm#961)
Medieval Sourcebook: Letters of Sidonius, online
_http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/sidonius1.html_
(http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/sidonius1.html) . Hereinafter
cited as Letters of Sidonius.
6. _[S965]_
(http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s14.htm#965)
Don Stone (_e-mail address_
(javascript:hemlinknc('DonStone','plantagenet.com')) ), Re: Gallo-Roman
ancestors of Charlemagne in "Re: Gallo-Roman ancestors
of Charlemagne", newsgroup message to soc.genealogy.medieval,
1998/03/11
.. Printout dated 4 June 2001. Hereinafter cited as Re: Gallo-Roman
ancestors.




--
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Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 04 feb 2006 20:46:02

Thank you very much, Douglas - that's very helpful.

Regards

Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Sat 04/02/2006 18:29
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

"Tompkins, M.L." wrote:

< Anyway, I'm now fairly sure that the Little Horwood Pigotts were not
descended from the Clotheram Pigotts, as claimed in the Pigot Roll -
which makes me wonder whether the Clotheram Pigotts ever actually
existed? Does anyone know anything about them?
<
< Matt

Dear Matt ~

Yes, the Pigot (or Pigott) family of Clotherholme (in Ripon), Yorkshire
did exist and they have living descendants. Below is information
regarding one member of this family taken from Magna Carta Ancestry
(2005).

As you can see, Geoffrey Pigot (died 1467/9) of Clotherholme lived in
the right time period as stated in the Pigot Pedigree Roll, but it was
his mother who was a Plumpton, not his wife. Also, this Geoffrey Pigot
and his wife, Margaret Sywardby, had no son named Richard. You can
investigate this matter further by consulting the sources that I've
listed for this family.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + +
Source: Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry (2005), pages 451-452:

10. MARGARET SYWARDBY, daughter and heiress. She married before 9
April 1450 (date of her father's will) GEOFFREY PIGOT (or PIGOTT),
Knt., of Clotherholme (in Ripon) and Melmerby, Yorkshire, and, in right
of his wife, of Sewerby, Gristhorpe (in Filey), etc., Yorkshire, son
and heir of Ranulph Pigot, Esq., of Clotherholme (in Ripon) and
Melmerby, Yorkshire, by Margaret, daughter of Robert Plumpton, Knt.
[see PLUMPTON 8.ii for his ancestry]. They had three sons, Ranulf,
Knt., William, and Thomas, and three daughters, Joan (wife of John
Wandesford, Knt.), Anne, and Elizabeth. In 1453 an oratory was granted
to them at Sewerby, Yorkshire, and again in 1454. In 1454 they granted
Peter Sywardby, Esq., a yearly rent of 40s. from their manor of
Sewerby, Yorkshire. In 1455 an oratory was granted to them and to her
mother, Elizabeth Sywardby. He was a legatee and sole executor of his
father's will dated 20 April 1466. SIR GEOFFREY PIGOT was living 9
May 1467, when he proved his father's will. He died in or before
1469, when his widow, Margaret, took a vow of chastity. She left a
will dated 7 Nov. 1485, proved 17 Dec. 1485.

References:

Testamenta Eboracensia 2 (Surtees Soc. 30) (1855): 136-137; 3
(Surtees Soc. 45) (1865): 156-158, 161, 340; 4 (Surtees Soc. 53)
(1869): 6-7 (will of Dame Margaret Pigot names her daughter
Scargill). Glover & St. George, Vis. of Yorkshire 1584-5, 1612
(1875): 302 (Pigot pedigree: "Galfridus Pygott. = [left blank]").
Bertram, Story of the Family of Wandesford (1904): 26-28, chart foll.
32. VCH Yorkshire N.R. 1 (1914): 222. Harvey et al., Vis. of the
North 2 (Surtees Soc. 133) (1921): 30; 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 134
(Pygot pedigree: "Dominus Galfridus Pigot miles = Margareta filia et
heres Iohannis Swardby"). Lancaster Birstall, Gomersal &
Heckmondwike (Thoresby Soc. 26) (1924): 26-29. Yorkshire Deeds 6
(Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 76) (1930): 130, 188-191. VCH Yorkshire
E.R. 2 (1974): 138-139.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome (de' Lupi)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 04 feb 2006 20:55:49

In article
<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA3f5bNGbf2kaYgr2971HcX8KA
AAAQAAAApBlO7B6iIEiV1zHxrp8V2QEAAAAA@email.it>,
cannalonga@email.it ("MLS") wrote:

Taking the opportunity of the renovated interest on this matter, I'd
like to propone once again my research:

Does someone knows something about the MALE ancestors of

Flavius Eparchius Philagrius // Comes Orientis abt 382 Bishop of
Cyprus; Prefect of Egipt?

His attested wife was Egnatia Avita Severa,
daughter of Quintus Flavius Egnatius Placidus Severus // (48260) (abt
330A.D. - )
and Antonia Marcianilla // (48259) (abt 335A.D. - )
His sons:
1) Eparchius virus nob. of Toul // noble of Toulouse (48262) (abt
370A.D. - )
2) Agricola Consul of /ROMAN EMPIRE/ Prefect of Gaul; Consul 421
(34161)
(abt 370A.D. - aft 421A.D.)
3) Lysticius // (176757) (abt 375A.D. - )

I'm very interested to find the male lineage of this Flavius Eparchius

Philagrius.

I'm not sure about is father, that could be Flavius
Philagrius // Prefect of Egypt between 334 and 340 (176649) (abt
300A.D. - aft 340A.D.), cited on "History Of The Decline And Fall Of
The Roman Empire
- Volume II" by Edward Gibbon, on note 111


Any Help will be welcome!
Thanks
Marco

(the 13th duke of San Donato, the marquis don Marco II Lupis Macedonio

Palermo, prince di Santa Margherita)

If you have already consulted Settipani, and the various published Roman
prosopographies, and if none of the 'DFA' enthusiasts have remarked on
this particular individual, I doubt you will find more about this Fl.
Philagrius here. But I do recall the male-line descent you posted
earlier, from this man, through many generations of de' Lupi, to your
modern family; you gave as your source the work of a 17th-century
genealogist, Calandrini. I have no personal knowledge of Calandrini,
but I will say that there is a general skepticism about the validity of
high-medieval noble lines which are traced back to Antiquity, often by
late Renaissance genealogists whose motivations were political and whose
methods were not as conservative and skeptical as we like to espouse
today. Perhaps rather than seeking to extend the line as you have it
from this late Roman, it would be fruitful (and it would certainly prove
interesting to others) if the medieval generations of your stated line
could be examined in primary sources.

The line as you've given it raises some primary questions: what are the
sources used by Calendrini to reconstruct the continuous 'Lupis' family,
first at the Merovingian court, then in various places in Lombardy,
until it became titled and settled at Soragna in the 12th century? And
furthermore, what proves the first man with a Germanic name, 'Sisulfus'
or 'Gisulfus' is son of the Roman-named Eparchius of Toulouse?

On the face of it, I do not think the Lombard charters and sparse
chronicle sources from before the eleventh century make use of surnames
of the form "de' Lupis": surely only one name appears in contemporary
records referencing these individuals? And if two names do appear, the
second one being a form of 'Lupus'--one would expect this to be a
patronymic rather than a name for a house or lineage?

Since it has been commonly said that no Western European family--royal
or otherwise--can show a defensible pedigree which carries back to
before 476 AD, this line would be a very unusual exception if it could
be supported by modern scholarly analysis. It would be very interesting
to see a generation-by-generation commentary on Calendrini's apparent
sources and whatever can currently be found to document these
individuals.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Doug McDonald

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome (de' Lupi)

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 04 feb 2006 23:45:20

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:

Since it has been commonly said that no Western European family--royal
or otherwise--can show a defensible pedigree which carries back to
before 476 AD,


That's a very interesting statement. It agrees roughly with what I have
in my file, but I'd be very interested in the exact line and person it refers to.
It's clearly earlier than Arnulf.

Doug McDonald

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 05 feb 2006 00:05:02

Just a stab in the dark - is there mention of Pigotts in Limerick, Ireland
in about 1600? Specifically I have Martha Pigott daughter of William who
married William Stamer.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: John Townsend
Date: 02/05/06 03:45:53
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

"Tompkins, M.L." wrote
Dear John,

Sheehan didn't have much to say (just that the Beachampton Pigotts'
"ancestors had migrated out of Yorkshire where they had been established
soon after the Conquest" - the kind of claim the Victorians liked to
make and JH Round liked to demolish!), but the VCH did have an
interesting comment in the Beachampton chapter about Richard Pigott
having been killed at Wakefield - as mentioned in my previous posting.
So thanks very much for your suggestions.

I wasn't thinking of that specifically. The V.C.H. index has what looks
like about 100 references to Pigott - not necessarily in the places which
you mentioned.

Best wishes,

John Townsend
Genealogist/Antiquarian Bookseller
http://www.johntownsend.demon.co.uk

Tim Powys-Lybbe

RE: Pigott of Little Horwood, Bucks c1500

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 05 feb 2006 00:06:50

In message of 4 Feb, mllt1@leicester.ac.uk ("Tompkins, M.L.") wrote:

It would be certainly interesting to see the relevant section of the
roll, if you could scan it and put it on your website.

Done. See http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscripts/pigot.html .

You have to click on the little image to get the full monty and it will
take a while to download being over 900 K bytes. But all the text is
readable, just. You will find it will occupy perhaps two screens wide
by four high and if you don't have that many, you'll have to scroll
round a bit.

It might be sensible to print out the little image first to give you a
plan of where you are going.

Bear in mind that this is only a small portion of the full roll.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Tony Hoskins

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 05 feb 2006 00:13:02

Hello Ian:

If it wouldn't be too much of a chore, I wonder if the number of
descents from Rohese Giffard for some other "American gateways" might be
given?

Speaking selfishly (!), how about the numbers for these ancestors of
mine?:

Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler (CT)
William Asfordby (NY)
Obadiah Bruen (CT/NJ)
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus (MA)
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Parke (CT)
Edmund Kemp (VA)
Roger Mallory (VA)
John West (VA)

Is there a way for the lay-person to enquire for such statistics on
"Genealogics"?

Many thanks.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

MLS

RE: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome (de' Lupi)

Legg inn av MLS » 05 feb 2006 00:47:01

Dear Nathaniel,
Of course, I know that there are no example of use of a Family name
before the eleventh century in Italy. By the way the Calandrini's book
don't' refer exactly to the use of the surname Lupi or Lupis. Just state
a complete genealogy
From the first Sisulfo (Sisulfus) brother of San Lupus of Troyes, to the
first Lupis of Soragna family members in XII century.
In my opinion it is quite reasonable that the use of the given name Lupo
or Lupus by different individuals in different times can means that
those individuals are related whit each others and became form the same
family group.
If you check carefully Settipani' book about the Noblesse of Midi, you
can find that Christian publish TWO genealogy table relating San Lupe
of Tories whit the (many others) Saint named Lupe (like Lupus of
Poisson, Loup of Sense etc.) and also the firsts Lupe's dukes of
Equitant and Gasconade etc. etc.
In a similar way, Calandrini's book state a genealogy relating the
brother of San Lupe of Tories (Sisal) whit many other named Lupus like
Lupus duke of Frilly etc.
Settipani book is quite full of sources citations. I.e. the Matteo
Villani book "Fatti eroici di Lupo de lupi duca del Friuli e de' suoi
descendenti", the Bonaventura's book "Croniche di Parma" and others, and
also "legal" sources like notary sources, i.e. "rogito di Ottavio
Ardenghi, Notaio Parmeggiano il di 13 agosto 1104" or "rogito di
Francesco Balestrieri, Notaro Parmegiano addi 4 agosto 918" and so and
so... (by the way,italian word "rogito" means "act", "document". I try a
translation of the first: "Act from mr. Ottavio Ardenghi, notary in
Parma on august 13th, 1104")
The majority of the ACTS cited by Calandrini cannot be available, lost
or destroyed by fire, revolutions, political troubles, wars etc. In fact
in Italy it is quite impossible to find a preserved notary documents
before the XII century.
because, as you certainly know, Italian archives suffered for many
destructions, most happened during the last World War. i.e. the 99% of
the precious "manoscritti angioni" (XIV cent.) in the Grande Archivio di
Stato of Naples was lost during a big fire on the second world war. For
this reasons , in my modest opinion, we should consider the possibility
that genealogists writing centuries ago can had access to documents that
now are lost.

But my question is: why Calandrini, if we assume he invented all this
big genealogy (a 150 pages book!) why citing documents whit notary
names, dates etc. I can't see any reason to "invent" a genealogy about a
family that is not so important as, for example, some sovereign family,
and where there are no "apologetic", or politic, or territorial
interest. This one could also be the simple reason why this book stay
in our private archives so long time even if must be noted that the
Calandrini's work is not only known to our family, but it was cited in
many books and work about the town of Parma.

Maybe will be better if I'll find the time to copy the WHOLE
Calandrini's book to post the most important sections on this Forum, but
it will be an hard work because there re 150 pages, wrote in an old
Italian language, not so easy to understand even for me that I'm
Italian! I'll work on it

Waiting any thoughts
Thanks
Marco Lupis


-----Original Message-----
From: Nathaniel Taylor [mailto:nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 8:56 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome (de' Lupi)


In article
<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA3f5bNGbf2kaYgr2971HcX8KA
AAAQAAAApBlO7B6iIEiV1zHxrp8V2QEAAAAA@email.it>,
cannalonga@email.it ("MLS") wrote:

Taking the opportunity of the renovated interest on this matter, I'd
like to propone once again my research:

Does someone knows something about the MALE ancestors of

Flavius Eparchius Philagrius // Comes Orientis abt 382 Bishop of
Cyprus; Prefect of Egipt?

His attested wife was Egnatia Avita Severa,
daughter of Quintus Flavius Egnatius Placidus Severus // (48260) (abt
330A.D. - ) and Antonia Marcianilla // (48259) (abt 335A.D. - )
His sons:
1) Eparchius virus nob. of Toul // noble of Toulouse (48262) (abt
370A.D. - )
2) Agricola Consul of /ROMAN EMPIRE/ Prefect of Gaul; Consul 421
(34161)
(abt 370A.D. - aft 421A.D.)
3) Lysticius // (176757) (abt 375A.D. - )

I'm very interested to find the male lineage of this Flavius
Eparchius

Philagrius.

I'm not sure about is father, that could be Flavius
Philagrius // Prefect of Egypt between 334 and 340 (176649) (abt
300A.D. - aft 340A.D.), cited on "History Of The Decline And Fall Of

The Roman Empire
- Volume II" by Edward Gibbon, on note 111


Any Help will be welcome!
Thanks
Marco

(the 13th duke of San Donato, the marquis don Marco II Lupis
Macedonio

Palermo, prince di Santa Margherita)

If you have already consulted Settipani, and the various published Roman

prosopographies, and if none of the 'DFA' enthusiasts have remarked on
this particular individual, I doubt you will find more about this Fl.
Philagrius here. But I do recall the male-line descent you posted
earlier, from this man, through many generations of de' Lupi, to your
modern family; you gave as your source the work of a 17th-century
genealogist, Calandrini. I have no personal knowledge of Calandrini,
but I will say that there is a general skepticism about the validity of
high-medieval noble lines which are traced back to Antiquity, often by
late Renaissance genealogists whose motivations were political and whose

methods were not as conservative and skeptical as we like to espouse
today. Perhaps rather than seeking to extend the line as you have it
from this late Roman, it would be fruitful (and it would certainly prove

interesting to others) if the medieval generations of your stated line
could be examined in primary sources.

The line as you've given it raises some primary questions: what are the
sources used by Calendrini to reconstruct the continuous 'Lupis' family,

first at the Merovingian court, then in various places in Lombardy,
until it became titled and settled at Soragna in the 12th century? And
furthermore, what proves the first man with a Germanic name, 'Sisulfus'
or 'Gisulfus' is son of the Roman-named Eparchius of Toulouse?

On the face of it, I do not think the Lombard charters and sparse
chronicle sources from before the eleventh century make use of surnames
of the form "de' Lupis": surely only one name appears in contemporary
records referencing these individuals? And if two names do appear, the
second one being a form of 'Lupus'--one would expect this to be a
patronymic rather than a name for a house or lineage?

Since it has been commonly said that no Western European family--royal
or otherwise--can show a defensible pedigree which carries back to
before 476 AD, this line would be a very unusual exception if it could
be supported by modern scholarly analysis. It would be very interesting

to see a generation-by-generation commentary on Calendrini's apparent
sources and whatever can currently be found to document these
individuals.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm



--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
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Merilyn Pedrick

Re: C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl o

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 05 feb 2006 00:48:02

Dear John
Thankyou for the correction - I have changed her place in my database.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: Therav3@aol.com
Date: 02/03/06 22:32:50
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl of
Buckingham

Friday, 3 February, 2006


Dear Merilyn (et al.),

Thanks for posting those Clare (aka Rohese Giffard)
descents.

One in particular caught my eye, the second, which
reads in part,

' Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare, Adeliza de Clare,
Agnes de Percy, Maud de Percy, Robert, d'Eiville,..'

Adeliza de Clare is found elsewhere as 'Alice of
Tonbridge'; as "Adelidis de Tunbridge", she is identified as
the mother of Agnes (wife of William de Percy) and Maud (wife
of William, Earl of Warwick), and evidently also of Alan de
Percy who ob.v.p. [Round, Feudal England (1895), p.473; see
the charters of Sallay Abbey, in Monasticon Anglicanum
(V:512-3, Num. I through IX].

Round gives Gilbert de Clare as her father, as you show
above. However, to date I have followed the suggestion in
Complete Peerage (CP X:441 and notes, sub _Percy_) that she
was the daughter of Gilbert's son Richard fitz Gilbert de
Clare (slain 1136) and his wife Adeliza of Chester.

I don't see that the known chronology rules out either
possibility; however, as it appears that Richard de Clare and
his wife Adeliza of Chester were likely born say 1090/1095,
and perhaps (for Adeliza) as late as say 1100, and that Agnes
de Percy was married to Joscelin de Louvain after 1154 (CP)
that the later generation is preferable.

Other suggestions/corrections to the above are certainly
welcome.

Cheers,

John






"Adelidis de Tunbridge", mother of Agnes (wife of William de Percy) and Maud
(wife of William Earl of Warwick) - Round, p.473 citing charters of Salley
Abbey (in Mon. Ang., v. 512-3)
probable parentage suggested in CP (versus Round, who suggested Gilbert de
Clare as father: CP vol. X, Percy - p. 441n)

Tony Hoskins

Re: Folie de Bourbon?

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 05 feb 2006 00:57:02

I note, in re: Queen Jeanne and "Folie de Bourbon":

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/refere ... de_bourbon

"Her father, grandfather, and brother were all somewhat mentally
unstable, and Jeanne seems to have inherited this family ailment. She
suffered a complete nervous breakdown after the birth of her seventh
child. Her eldest surviving son, Charles VI, was famous for his
insanity."

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 05 feb 2006 02:27:32

In article <ds3aq1$grf$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>,
Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:


Since it has been commonly said that no Western European family--royal
or otherwise--can show a defensible pedigree which carries back to
before 476 AD,


That's a very interesting statement. It agrees roughly with what I have
in my file, but I'd be very interested in the exact line and person it refers
to.
It's clearly earlier than Arnulf.

I was merely using a date of convenience--the deposition of the last
recognized Western emperor. I do not think there is a western pedigree
generally recognized to antedate this (leaving aside the disputes over
the limits of historicity of the traditional Irish and Welsh pedigrees),
but I did not have a particular line in mind to arrive at or near
precisely that date.

Alright then: who, and when, is the earliest generally acceptible known
(i.e. better-than-conjectural) ancestor (agnate or otherwise) in the
great shared Western European family tree? I am thinking of Continental
Europe generally--the Franks, the Lombards, the Visigoths, etc. For the
Spanish, there are no non-contentious descent paths back into the
seventh century or earlier. For the Franks, the ancestry of the
Carolingians--in its conservative version--is quite closely sheared. I
am less familiar with claims of continuity between the early Lombards
and their successors after the Millennium. Perhaps we may start with
the acknowledged ancestors of Charlemagne?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 05 feb 2006 03:38:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome


Ford Mommaerts-Browne wrote:

What I meant, in response to the initial request, is that there is not a
proven line which one could, (in good conscience), simply post.

But Mr. Mommaerts-Browne ... YOU have posted a line, with only a few
dotted lines, from one Fl. Afranius Syagrius, Consul of Rome in 382,
to Doda, wife of Arnulf, Bishop of Metz, and thence to Charlemagne
and everybody else. And the only dotted line that is not just saying
"which wife" is the one to Doda herself. And earlier than you have
a seriously dotted line all the way back to an Emperor.

Doug McDonald

And THAT was posted as a file in an e-mail list group, as a starting pooint
for discussion and debate. It was explained that that was its purpose.
More than once.
The initial request was for lines from imperial Rome to the Middle ages. I
suggested that one needed to read the literature, (which included the
chart(s) which you mentioned, and the discussion thereof), and draw ones own
conclusions. I did not suggest these charts because a) they are
preliminary, tentative, and for discussion only, (not factual conclusions);
and b) Settipani, Morris, Kirk, Wagner, Loy, Mathisen and Kelley, (PLEASE
attach NO meaning to the order of this list), do a much better job than I,
(IMHO), of presenting and discussing the corpus of the material.
It occurred to me, after my last post, that I had made a great error in
omitting Prof. Mathisen's work, particularly his doctoral dissertation,
which is available from University Microform Services, U. of Michigan @ Ann
Arbour.
Finally, Settipani's works should not be limited to _Continuité_. Hopefully
he can add the actual titles; but one is the ancestry of Charlemagne, while
another is the prehistory of the Capetians, (which latter has, so far, been
unavailable to me).
Respectfully,
Ford MB

Gjest

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2006 04:21:02

In a message dated 2/4/2006 9:34:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

3. _[S175]_ (http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/s12.htm#175)
Christian Settipani, Les Ancêtres de Charlemagne (France: Éditions
Christian,
1989), #528. Hereinafter cited as AdC.


I posted the full name Ford. Maybe it didn't make it through the gateway?

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 05 feb 2006 04:47:02

I posted the full name Ford. Maybe it didn't make it through the gateway?

It made it trough. After I had posted.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome (de' Lupi)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 05 feb 2006 04:50:02

cannalonga@email.it ("MLS") wrote:

... a complete genealogy from the first Sisulfo (Sisulfus) brother of
San Lupus of Troyes, to the first Lupis of Soragna family members
in XII century...

Dear Marco (if I may),

You raise many important points, and it would be interesting to discuss
many of them in due course. The brief passage from your message, quoted
above, is the heart of your genealogy, as propounded by Calandrini, and
I agree that it would be most important simply to begin with his work as
a source. In this day of the internet it may indeed be possible to make
such a text available--even as facsimiles of his original work if to
retype (let alone to modernise) his prose is too time-consuming.

I do see Settipani's stemmata (in his _Midi_ book) tracing the early
Gascon 'Lupi' from Saint Loup, bishop of Troyes, and various apparently
related Gallo-Romans of 6th-century Champagne. I see also that he
intends this to be more fully treated in the long-awaited second part of
his _Prehistoire des Capetiens_, which will be one of the most important
compendia of discussions of early Frankish and Gallo-Roman genealogy.
It would be fascinating if the jump from Francia to Lombardy could be
supported as plausible in the same way that Settipani has argued for a
connection between the early Loups of Champagne and the later Loups of
Gascony.

As for Calandrini's work, I look forward to seeing it in due course, but
would make only some general observations. It is good that he cites
charters for the individuals in the genealogy; this places him above
many seventeenth-century antiquarians and genealogists. I should say
that I do not automatically "assume he invented" all or even part of
this genealogy, nor even that he was consciously exaggerating the
antiquity of the family for political or prestige reasons (though this
was often done in his day, both for very prominent families and for
lesser ones). Even without such venal sins many antiquaries of his day
were prone, through naivety, to infer a proved genealogical link from
sources which genealogists today would use more cautiously. Both
conscious and unconscious exaggeration were thus common to works on
families great and small, in all parts of Europe (my own comparitive
experience reading such texts extends to France, England, and Iberia,
but not to Italy).

It would help to be able to read the way in which Calandrini marshalls
his evidence before commenting further. Certainly most, of not all, of
the acts he cites may be unavailable today, due to the inevitable losses
you mention, which befell so many French and Italian archival holdings
in the past few centuries. Nevertheless there have been major efforts
to collect and analyze Lombard-era documents, which may even provide
more evidence, inaccessible to Calandrini, either to support or impugn
the genealogy. At any rate, the internal evidence of Calandrini's own
work will be most useful to our critical understanding of how he has
used the documentation available to him. As for Matteo Villani: you
refer to the famous 14th-century chronicler of the plague in Florence?
I do not find a specific title, such as you mention, attributed to him:
so I look forward to further discussion of the sources for this line.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Gjest

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2006 06:42:02

Dear Tony and Others,
Here are a couple of the many descents of
the Deighton sisters from Rohese de Giffard, Lady of Clare
1 Rohese de Giffard married Richard Fitzgilbert, Lord of Clare d
1084
2Gilbert Fitzrichard, Lord of Clare d 1114/17 married Adelize of
Clermont
3 Richard Fitzgilbert de Clare, Lord of Clare d 1136 married
Adelize of Chester
3 Gilbert Fitzgilbert de Clare, 1st Earl of Pembroke d 1148
married Isabel de Beaumont
4 (son of Richard) Roger de Clare d 1173, Earl of Clare and
Hertford married Maud de St Hilary
4 (son of Gilbert) Richard de Clare d 1176, Earl of Pembroke
married Eva of Leinster
5 Avelina de Clare married (2nd wife) Geoffrey Fitzpeter, Earl of
Essex
5 Isabel de Clare d 1220, suo jure Countess of Pembroke married
William Marshal, jure uxoris Earl of Pembroke d 1219
6 Sir John Fitzgeoffrey d 1258 married Isabel le Bigod (see below)
6 Maud Marshal d 1248 m 1st Hugh le Bigod, Magna Carta Surety d
1221, later 3rd Earl of Norfolk
7 Isabel le Bigod married 2nd Sir John Fitzgeoffrey (see above)
8 Maud Fitzjohn d 1301 married 2nd William Beauchamp, 9th Earl
of Warwick
9 Isabel Beauchamp married 2nd Hugh le DeSpencer, Earl of
Winchester executed 1326
10 Hugh le DeSpencer executed 1326 2nd Lord le DeSpencer married
Eleanor de Clare
11 Sir Edward le DeSpencer, Kt. killed 1342 married Anne Ferrers
of Groby
12 Edward le DeSpencer, 4th Lord le DeSpencer married Elizabeth
Burghesh
11 Elizabeth le DeSpencer married Maurice de Berkeley, 4th Lord
Berkeley
13 Margaret le DeSpencer d 1415 married Robert de Ferrers, de
jure 5th Lord Ferrers of Chartley d 1413
12 Sir James de Berkeley, kt. d 1405 married Elizabeth Bluet d
1420
14 Edmund de Ferrers, de jure 6th Lord Ferrers of Chartley d1435
married Ellen de la Roche d 1440
13 James de Berkeley, 6th Lord Berkeley d 1463 married 3rd
Isabel de Mowbray d 1452
15 Margaret de Ferrers of Chartley d after January 1488 married
John Beauchamp, 1st Lord Beauchamp of Powick
14 Maurice Berkeley, de jure 8th Lord Berkeley d1506 married
Isabel Meade d 1514
16 Richard Beauchamp, 2nd Lord Beauchamp of Powick d 1503
married Elizabeth Stafford of Grafton
15 Anne Berkeley married Sir William Dennis, Kt. of Dirham,
Gloucester d 1533
17 Anne Beauchamp d 1534 married Richard Lygon of Madresfield,
Worcester d 1512
16 Isabel Dennis d 1559 married Sir John Berkeley, Kt. of Stoke
Giffard, Gloucester d 1546
18 Sir Richard Ligon, Kt. of Madresfield, Gloucester d1556
married 1st Margery Greville d 1542
17 Elizabeth Berkeley of Stoke Giffard, Gloucester married
Henry Ligon (see next)
19 Henry Ligon of Upton St Leonard`s, Gloucester d 1577 married
Elizabeth Berkeley of Stoke Giffard (above)
18/ 20 Elizabeth Ligon d after 1602 married Edward Basset,
Gentleman of Uley, Gloucester d 1602
19 / 21 Jane Basset d 1631 married John Deighton, Gentleman of
St Nicholas, Gloucester died 1640
20 / 22 Jane Deighton ,wife of John Lugg and Jonathan Negus
20 / 22 Frances Deighton, wife of Richard Williams
20 / 22 Katherine Deighton, wife of Samuel Hackburne /
Hagborne, Governor Thomas Dudley and Reverend John Allin
Sources Generations 1- 5 Carl Boyer 3rd Medieval English Ancestors of
Certain Americans pp 50-54, 5- 12 AR 7 lines 66, 69, 72, 74; generations 9-22
Douglas Richardson Magna Carta Ancestry see subjects Beauchamp,Berkeley, Dennis,
Deighton, DeSpencer,Ferrers, Ligon and Powick
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Ian Fettes

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Ian Fettes » 05 feb 2006 10:12:05

Hi Tony and others interested,

I have done a special extract from Genealogics for those gateway ancestors
in the database nominated below. There is a lot of computation involved, so
this is not a feature that could be provided online.

I show the generation count (including the base person) over which the lines
apply.

Cheers,

Ian


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard


Hello Ian:

If it wouldn't be too much of a chore, I wonder if the number of
descents from Rohese Giffard for some other "American gateways" might be
given?

Speaking selfishly (!), how about the numbers for these ancestors of
mine?:

Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler (CT) === 65 lines over 20 -24 gens.
William Asfordby (NY) =============== 163 lines over 20 - 26 gens.
Obadiah Bruen (CT/NJ)=============== 7 lines over 18 - 22 gens.
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus (MA)====== 58 lines over 19 - 24 gens.
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Parke (CT)=== 1 line in 22 gens.
Edmund Kemp (VA)
Roger Mallory (VA)================== 9 lines in 18 - 22 gens.
John West (VA)==================== 186 lines in 18 - 23 gens.

Is there a way for the lay-person to enquire for such statistics on
"Genealogics"?

Many thanks.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

______________________________

Gjest

Re: Folie de Bourbon?

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2006 10:44:01

The first duke of Bourbon who was the son of King Louis IX had been
knocked to the head during a battle. It was the reason why Bourbon were
mentally unstable.

jlucsoler

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome (de' Lupi)

Legg inn av jlucsoler » 05 feb 2006 11:26:46

Dear Marco

no need to be a proeminent family to have a fraudulent genealogy till
atiquity (but i really hope, and you know that, Calendrini is right).

i have 3 examples:

first ... to stay in Italy, The BORRI patrilineal genealogy. it is wide
spread on internet and go back as far as a Burrus in Vaison la romaine I
century B.C (if i remember this genealogy was made by a genealogist 250
years ago)

Second The CHAPTEUIL, DE FAY agnatic genealogy who go to an Ursus at the
beginnig of our area. it pass by (obviously) Ferreolus senator of Narbonne
(by a Daughter). The worst is that EACH PEOPLE in this fictious line was
REAL... but as for a link between them... no idea (genealogy made in 1930's
by a specialist of the Region where "de FAY" lived"

Third BLanc agnatic genealogy in Marseille... they were Peasants or
Butchers. quite rich but.. not so. We can go back (with proofs) till 1350
and with solid hypothesis 200 years more (not bad for workers or
peasant!!)..... But an historian of marseille (Mr BLANC) made a book... to
show agnatic deszcent back to the tribe of the Albici who fight Julius
Caesar near VALENSOLE (150 KM from Marseille). All the people Were real...
all named or nicnamed Blancus, Bianchi, blanchi..but for the links .....
Mr Blanc was not an "escroc" neither a mythomaniac or a dreamer... but he
was CONVINCED of his genealogy. one day he said to me ... "we are named
"Blanc" because I, My father, My grand-father and surely all before them are
White-haired and Pale Skinned (as most part of old people)... but this name
come more further back in the time... The albici were white Haires and Pale
skinned.. and that's why they were called Albici and that we are Called
BLANC" He took all the "Blancus, Albus, etc.. in charts and constructed a
DFA


BUT I WANT TO INSIST : these 3 examples follow a logic based on
anthroponimic , places, and hypothesis on documents (As Mr SETTIPANI does) .
MOST PART of us (not you of SGM but amator genealogists) Can't evaluate
because the logic and the method are seerious (even if bad used)...

to finish... i personnally still have questions (Doubts????) about the real
Mother of Charles-Constantion de Provence... or the links
Charlemagne===Ruricius===Anicii... WHY??? because i am not able to see what
is correct and what is fantasy (if fantasy is well-constructed)... beause we
can't have certainity (who know... maybe Burrus is the ancestor of the
borri) ... and finally because some wise and recognised authors (ancient or
contamporaneius) made some too audacious and assured charts with
intelligence , well explained, and logic but they were finally wrong (this
is disturbing!!!). I ve just readan artiicle of 1953 bout the early
fgenealogy of DE BEUIL family in provence... all seems right... but all is
rubbish.

for those of SGM who make audacious reconstruction: Ford, Christian etc.. it
is nit the same... because you can't stop repeating you cant be wrong,
that's only hypothesis, that you give datas and WE have to make our own
opinion... so you re not concerned by this post... YES YOU ARE.... you can
help us to determine in these long genealogies which hypothesis could be
retained , which coulb be not. but i know all the work u have to do and
that often, you can't becouse lack of time

SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH

Jl

jlucsoler

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome (de' Lupi)

Legg inn av jlucsoler » 05 feb 2006 11:33:50

UPPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS ERROR FAULT MISTAKE i rewrite

hope nobody because of my bad english will understand something i don 't
think


for those of SGM who make audacious reconstruction: Ford, Christian etc.. it
is not the same... because you can't stop repeating you CAN (i wrote cant
and it is not a lapsus) be wrong, that's only hypothesis, that you give
datas and WE have to make our own
opinion... so you re not concerned by this post...
YES YOU ARE.... you can help us to determine in these long genealogies which
hypothesis could be retained , which coulb be not. but i know all the work
u have to do and
that often, you can't becouse lack of time


jl

MLS

RE: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome (de' Lupi)

Legg inn av MLS » 05 feb 2006 12:26:25

Dear Nat, (of course I'm just Marco... Good!)

You pointed the focus of this matter about the Matteo Villani source
citation from Calandrini: Yes, I assume that the cited Matteo Villani
(Firenze 1285 ca. - 1363)is the medieval historian, son of Giovanni
Villani.
The problem is: the only work we know from Matteo Villani is the
Florentine plague "Cronica"
So here maybe we CAN find the importance of the Calandrini's book, not
only under the genealogical point of view but also historical: he is
referring to a most probably LOST work of one of the most important XIII
(!) century medieval Italian chronicle..! Of course, if we don't assume
that he totally invented this Matteo Villani Work "Fatti eroici di Lupo
de lupi duca del Friuli e de' suoi descendenti" but it will be Totally
NONSENSE! Same if you or me wrote today a genealogy referring to
Cinderella..!
So it is evident that, in the time when Calandrini wrote, this Matteo
Villani's source was still existent...

And, in my modest opinion, the considerations I stated above can be one
first thing that can substantiate in some way the value of the
Calandrini's work...can't it?

About the effort to make his text available on line ... You're right, I
can try to scan it and put on Internet but ...believe me. it is REALLY
"hard" to read cause the use of the XVII century Italian prose...but
I'll do it!

Waiting your thoughts (and from every friends on this forum) whit
impatience
Ciao
Marco





-----Original Message-----
From: Nathaniel Taylor [mailto:nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 4:50 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome (de' Lupi)


cannalonga@email.it ("MLS") wrote:

... a complete genealogy from the first Sisulfo (Sisulfus) brother of
San Lupus of Troyes, to the first Lupis of Soragna family members
in XII century...

Dear Marco (if I may),

You raise many important points, and it would be interesting to discuss
many of them in due course. The brief passage from your message, quoted

above, is the heart of your genealogy, as propounded by Calandrini, and
I agree that it would be most important simply to begin with his work as

a source. In this day of the internet it may indeed be possible to make

such a text available--even as facsimiles of his original work if to
retype (let alone to modernise) his prose is too time-consuming.

I do see Settipani's stemmata (in his _Midi_ book) tracing the early
Gascon 'Lupi' from Saint Loup, bishop of Troyes, and various apparently
related Gallo-Romans of 6th-century Champagne. I see also that he
intends this to be more fully treated in the long-awaited second part of

his _Prehistoire des Capetiens_, which will be one of the most important

compendia of discussions of early Frankish and Gallo-Roman genealogy.
It would be fascinating if the jump from Francia to Lombardy could be
supported as plausible in the same way that Settipani has argued for a
connection between the early Loups of Champagne and the later Loups of
Gascony.

As for Calandrini's work, I look forward to seeing it in due course, but

would make only some general observations. It is good that he cites
charters for the individuals in the genealogy; this places him above
many seventeenth-century antiquarians and genealogists. I should say
that I do not automatically "assume he invented" all or even part of
this genealogy, nor even that he was consciously exaggerating the
antiquity of the family for political or prestige reasons (though this
was often done in his day, both for very prominent families and for
lesser ones). Even without such venal sins many antiquaries of his day
were prone, through naivety, to infer a proved genealogical link from
sources which genealogists today would use more cautiously. Both
conscious and unconscious exaggeration were thus common to works on
families great and small, in all parts of Europe (my own comparitive
experience reading such texts extends to France, England, and Iberia,
but not to Italy).

It would help to be able to read the way in which Calandrini marshalls
his evidence before commenting further. Certainly most, of not all, of
the acts he cites may be unavailable today, due to the inevitable losses

you mention, which befell so many French and Italian archival holdings
in the past few centuries. Nevertheless there have been major efforts
to collect and analyze Lombard-era documents, which may even provide
more evidence, inaccessible to Calandrini, either to support or impugn
the genealogy. At any rate, the internal evidence of Calandrini's own
work will be most useful to our critical understanding of how he has
used the documentation available to him. As for Matteo Villani: you
refer to the famous 14th-century chronicler of the plague in Florence?
I do not find a specific title, such as you mention, attributed to him:
so I look forward to further discussion of the sources for this line.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm



--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Hai trovato casa? Qui puoi trovare chi soddisfa le tue esigenze per il mutuo!
Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=4195&d=5-2

Doug McDonald

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 05 feb 2006 16:19:47

Tony Hoskins wrote:
Hello Ian:

If it wouldn't be too much of a chore, I wonder if the number of
descents from Rohese Giffard for some other "American gateways" might be
given?

Speaking selfishly (!), how about the numbers for these ancestors of
mine?:

Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler (CT)
William Asfordby (NY)
Obadiah Bruen (CT/NJ)
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus (MA)
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Parke (CT)
Edmund Kemp (VA)
Roger Mallory (VA)
John West (VA)

Is there a way for the lay-person to enquire for such statistics on
"Genealogics"?

Many thanks.



Me too .... I'd like to see what you get for William Ironmonger
and the Rev. Robert Rose to Rohese. I have a computer program
that does this, but of course my file is not your file.

I get 177 for Rose and 4 for Ironmonger.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 05 feb 2006 16:34:01

Ford Mommaerts-Browne wrote:

From: "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu

But Mr. Mommaerts-Browne ... YOU have posted a line, with only a few
dotted lines, from one Fl. Afranius Syagrius, Consul of Rome in 382,
to Doda, wife of Arnulf, Bishop of Metz, and thence to Charlemagne
and everybody else. And the only dotted line that is not just saying
"which wife" is the one to Doda herself. And earlier than you have
a seriously dotted line all the way back to an Emperor.

Doug McDonald

And THAT was posted as a file in an e-mail list group, as a starting pooint
for discussion and debate. It was explained that that was its purpose.
More than once.
The initial request was for lines from imperial Rome to the Middle ages. I
suggested that one needed to read the literature, (which included the
chart(s) which you mentioned, and the discussion thereof), and draw ones own
conclusions.

Well, yes. But since the very last line to Doda, and
of course the three to Arnulf himself, are dotted, it is pretty
clear that here we are not talking absolute proof.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 05 feb 2006 17:19:34

Ian Fettes wrote:
Hi Tony and others interested,

I have done a special extract from Genealogics for those gateway ancestors
in the database nominated below. There is a lot of computation involved, so
this is not a feature that could be provided online.



Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler (CT) === 65 lines over 20 -24 gens.
William Asfordby (NY) =============== 163 lines over 20 - 26 gens.
Obadiah Bruen (CT/NJ)=============== 7 lines over 18 - 22 gens.
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus (MA)====== 58 lines over 19 - 24 gens.
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Parke (CT)=== 1 line in 22 gens.
Edmund Kemp (VA)
Roger Mallory (VA)================== 9 lines in 18 - 22 gens.
John West (VA)==================== 186 lines in 18 - 23 gens.




I have a computer program that can do such calculations on your
own Gedcom file. It is slow for large files and can consume gigantic
amounts of memory. It gives a list of every person in the file who
is an ancestor of the "head" you specify, and how many times they
appear. Thus running it once gives you a complete list of ancestor
numbers, so it does not have to be run for each ancestor.
I can give it to people who want it, or in a few
cases I could run it on your Gedcom. (Thus, collectiong gedcoms!)
It's main purpose, however, is to draw genealogical trees where there
are lines connecting each repeat instance of a given person. These
of course are rats nests for a person with many medieval ancestors.
It will also generate a complete Ahnentafel for anybody in your file,
in a simple form.

Tim Powys-Lybbe has, for example, 1517 descents from Rohese Giffard
in his Gedcom. Robert the Bruce has 19 in my file, and Edward III only one
in my file. The person in my file from whom I descend the most is
Gerold I, Graf in Vintzgau with 4505 descents (father-in-law of Charlemagne.)
However, my file lacks a large number of continental Europeans present.
In my largest file I have James VI-I descended 148131 times from Count Gerold
as the most descents. It is likely that most people will have this person
as the one with the most descents.


Doug McDonald

John P. Ravilious

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 05 feb 2006 20:21:18

Dear Doug (McDonald), et al.,

Whilst busy counting Counts in your (or our) ancestry, there are a
few Alemanni to add to your list of individuals to vote for "Most
Likely to Be in my AT". Following is a pedigree giving the ancestry of
Count Gerold's wife, and also the identity of their children. Those of
primary genealogical interest were (A) Hildegarde, wife of Charlemagne,
and (B) Adrian, grandfather of Robert 'the Strong' and ancestor,
thereby, of the Capetians & c.).

Cheers,

John


1 Gottfried ' dux '
----------------------------------------
Death: 0709[1]
Occ: duke of the Alemanni

rebelled against Merovingian rule (under Pepin II of Heristal):
" At that time, the duke of the Alemans, Gottfried, and the other
dukes
refused to obey the Frankish dukes, since they could no longer serve
the Merovingian king as they had been wont to do formerly. They
therefore kept away. " [Riche, p. 31, citing contemporary source[1] ]

Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
" Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi begat
Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]

Children: Loching (-0727)
Odilon
Liutfrid


1.1 Loching 'filius Godfrey''
----------------------------------------
Death: 0727[3]

duke of the Alemanni

Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
" Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi begat
Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]

Genealogics #I00220717[3]

Children: Nebi (-<0775)


1.1.1 Nebi 'filius Loching'
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 0775[4]

duke of the Alemanni

Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
" Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi begat
Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]

cf. Settipani, pp. 9-10[4]

Genealogics # I00220719[3]

Spouse: Hersuinde

Children: Emma
Ruadpert


1.1.1.1 Emma 'filia Nebi'
----------------------------------------

Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
" Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi begat
Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]

cf. Settipani, pp. 9-10[4]

Spouse: Gerold 'comes'

Children: Hildegarde (ca0759-0783)
Gerold 'comes' (-0799)
Megingoz
Odalric
Odon
Adrian


1.1.1.1.1 Hildegarde
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 0759[2]
Death: 30 Apr 0783[2],[5]

2nd wife of Charlemagne

' a woman of high birth, and of Swabian origin ' [Einhard 18, as
cited by Dutton[2];[1]]

Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
"Hildegardem ... de cognatione Gotefrridi ducis Alamannorum.
Gotefridus genuit Huochingum, Huochingus genuit Nebi, Nebe
genuit Imma; Immam vero genuit Hiltigartem ..."
{Trans: " Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi
begat Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "}
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]

Spouse: Charles 'the Great' (Charlemagne)
Birth: 2 Apr 0748[1],[6]
Death: 28 Jan 0813, Aachen[1],[6]
Father: Pepin III 'the Short', King of the Franks (ca0714-0768)
Mother: Bertha of Laon (-0783)
Marr: bef 30 Apr 0771[5]

Children: Charles (ca0773-0811)
Adalhaid (<0774-<0774)
Rotrude (0775-0810)
Pepin (<0777-0810)
Louis 'the Pious' (0778-0840)
Lothar (0778-ca0780)
Bertha (ca0779->0823)
Gisela (<0781->0814)
Hildegard (0782-ca0783)


1.1.1.1.2 Gerold 'comes'
----------------------------------------
Death: 0799, killed in Avar revolt[1]

count in Bavaria
governor [praefectus] of Bavaria after the deposition of Tassilo,
788 [Riche p. 93, 102[1]]

leader of the Danubian flotilla in the campaign against the Avars, 791


1.1.1.1.3 Megingoz
----------------------------------------


1.1.1.1.4 Odalric
----------------------------------------


1.1.1.1.5 Odon
----------------------------------------


1.1.1.1.6 Adrian
----------------------------------------

maternal grandfather of Robert 'the Strong' [Settipani, 'Ancestors
of Charlemagne (Addenda)', p. 8[4]]

Children: NN


1. Pierre Riche (trans. by Michael I. Allen), "The Carolingians,"
Philadelphia: Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, 1993.
2. Paul Edward Dutton, ed., "Carolingian Civilization: A Reader,"
Peterborough, Canada: Broadview Press, 1993 (reprinted 1999).
3. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com
cites Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg.,
Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, [ES], and other sources
4. Christian Settipani, "The Ancestors of Charlemagne (Addenda)," 1990,
paper copy: library of John Ravilious, URL
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/charladdend.htm
5. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
6. Stewart Baldwin, "Re: Oldest male line?," Oct 24, 1996,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites Christian Settipani, La
Prehistoire des Capetiens (1993), (descent of the counts of
Chiny from the counts of Vermandois).




Doug McDonald wrote:
Ian Fettes wrote:
Hi Tony and others interested,

I have done a special extract from Genealogics for those gateway ancestors
in the database nominated below. There is a lot of computation involved, so
this is not a feature that could be provided online.



Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler (CT) === 65 lines over 20 -24 gens.
William Asfordby (NY) =============== 163 lines over 20 - 26 gens.
Obadiah Bruen (CT/NJ)=============== 7 lines over 18 - 22 gens.
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus (MA)====== 58 lines over 19 - 24 gens.
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Parke (CT)=== 1 line in 22 gens.
Edmund Kemp (VA)
Roger Mallory (VA)================== 9 lines in 18 - 22 gens.
John West (VA)==================== 186 lines in 18 - 23 gens.




I have a computer program that can do such calculations on your
own Gedcom file. It is slow for large files and can consume gigantic
amounts of memory. It gives a list of every person in the file who
is an ancestor of the "head" you specify, and how many times they
appear. Thus running it once gives you a complete list of ancestor
numbers, so it does not have to be run for each ancestor.
I can give it to people who want it, or in a few
cases I could run it on your Gedcom. (Thus, collectiong gedcoms!)
It's main purpose, however, is to draw genealogical trees where there
are lines connecting each repeat instance of a given person. These
of course are rats nests for a person with many medieval ancestors.
It will also generate a complete Ahnentafel for anybody in your file,
in a simple form.

Tim Powys-Lybbe has, for example, 1517 descents from Rohese Giffard
in his Gedcom. Robert the Bruce has 19 in my file, and Edward III only one
in my file. The person in my file from whom I descend the most is
Gerold I, Graf in Vintzgau with 4505 descents (father-in-law of Charlemagne.)
However, my file lacks a large number of continental Europeans present.
In my largest file I have James VI-I descended 148131 times from Count Gerold
as the most descents. It is likely that most people will have this person
as the one with the most descents.


Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2006 20:47:02

Dear Douglas, Ian, John, Leo and Others,
I have at least
one line apiece for Samuel Appleton and his wife Judith Everard and one for
James Cudworth

1 Rohese de Giffard married Richard Fitzgilbert, Lord of Clare
2 Gilbert Fitzrichard, Lord of Clare married Adeliz de Clermont
3 Richard FitzGilbert de Clare, Lord of Clare married Adeliz of Chester
4 Roger de Clare, Earl of Clare and Hertford married Maud de St Hilary
5 Avelina de Clare married as 2nd wife Geoffrey Fitzpeter, Earl of Essex
6 Hawise Fitzgeoffrey dead by 1243 married Sir Reynold de Mohun, Kt. , Lord
of Dunster, Somerset d 1258
7 Alice de Mohun d bet 1282-84 married Sir Robert Beauchamp, Kt. , Lord of
Hache, Somerset dead by 1266
8 Sir Humphrey Beauchamp, Kt., Lord of Ryme, Dorset dead 1317 married Sibyl
Oliver divorced 1287- 1290
9 Sir Hugh Beauchamp, Kt. of Lillesden d 1337 married Idonea de Lisle of
Chaffcombe
10 Sir John Beauchamp, kt. alive 1396 of Lillesden married Joan de Bridport
11 Joan Beauchamp died bet 1381-88 married bef 1378 Thomas Biddlesgate of
Knightseton, Devon
12 Joan Biddlesgate alive 1448 married 1403 Richard Wydville ,of the Mote d
1441
13 Joan Wydville married 1429 (2nd wife) William Hawte, Esq of Bishopsbourne,
York
14 Sir William Hawte, Kt. KB of Bishopsbourne, York alive 1473 married Joan
Horne
15 Sir Thomas Hawte, Kt. KB, of Bishopsbourne d1502 married Isabel Frowick
16 Margery Hawte d 1540 married 1st William Isaacke dead by 1518
16 Jane Hawte married Robert Wrothe
17 Edward Isaacke d 1572/3 married 1544 Margery Whetehill
17 Dorothy Wroth married Edward (III) Lewknor
18 Mary Issacke (will) 1612 married about 1568 Thomas Appleton d 1603
18 Mary Lewknor married Matthew Machell
19 Samuel Appleton bp 1586- d 1670, Rowley, MA married 1616 Judith Everard
19 Mary Machell married Ralph Cudworth
20 James Cudworth married Mary Parker

2 Robert Fitzrichard, Lord of Little Dunmow, Essex d 1134 married Maud de St
Liz, half sister of Heny de Scotia, Earl of Huntingdon, King Designate of
Scotland; She married 2nd Saher de Quincy , grandmother of Saher iV de Quincy MCS
and 1st Earl of Winchester
3 Walter Fitzrobert,d 1198 , Lord of Little Dunmow married 1st Maud de Bohun,
2nd Maud de Lucy
4 (by 2) Alice Fitzwalter (sister of Robert, leader of MC barons) married
Gilbert Pecche
5 Hamon Pecche married Eve NN
6 Gilbert Pecche married Joan de Creye
7 Gilbert Pecche, 1st Lord Pecche married Iseult NN
8 Sir Simon Pecche, Kt. married Agnes Holme
9 Margaret Pecche married John Hunt
10 Iodena Hunt married Thomas Cornish
11 John Cornish married NN
12 John Cornish married Agnes Walden
13 Mary Cornish married Thomas Everard
14 Henry Everard married NN
15 Thomas Everard married Margaret Wiseman
16 John Everard married Judith Bourne
17 Judith Everard married Samuel Appleton
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA
Sources 1-5 Carl Boyer 3rd Medieval English Ancestors of Certain Americans
(MEACA)pp 51-54, 2-8 AR 7 246 B (contributed by Douglas Richardson), 7-19
NEHGR 147:Pages 3-10
Appleton article by Charles Hansen, 17-20 James Cudworth ancestry by Paul
Reed see especially GBR RD 600, see also WGD Ancestry of Mary Isaac. For Judith
Everard see Boyer MEACA pp 51-52, RD 500 p 459, also of interest In
Hayden`s Book of Dignities 1894 p 757 indicates that Wm Hawte was made a Knight
Companion of the Order of the Bath at the Coronation on May 26, 1464 of Elizabeth
(Widville), as Queen of Edward IV of England and that p 759 Thomas Hawte was
made a knight Companion of the Bath at the marriage of Arthur Tudor, Prince of
Wales to Katherine of Aragon on November 17, 1501.

Robin Haigh

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Robin Haigh » 05 feb 2006 23:29:02

"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1139167278.851545.44310@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Whilst busy counting Counts in your (or our) ancestry, there are a
few Alemanni to add to your list of individuals to vote for "Most
Likely to Be in my AT". Following is a pedigree giving the ancestry of
Count Gerold's wife, and also the identity of their children. Those of
primary genealogical interest were (A) Hildegarde, wife of Charlemagne,
and (B) Adrian, grandfather of Robert 'the Strong' and ancestor,
thereby, of the Capetians & c.).

[Alemanni snipped]


I've got old printouts from Genealogics which show my descent from Winithar
King of the Ostrogoths and Walia King of the Visigoths.

Looking at the site now, this line is no longer continuous (don't you hate
it when this happens?) The parentage of "Nebi-Huoching", aka Loching, has
been demoted to just a "possibly" in a note.

What gives exactly? Is his father (Gottfried) disputed? Or do we know his
father, but not his mother?

--
RSH

Gjest

Re: Folie de Bourbon?

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2006 23:34:44

olivier.guionneau@wanadoo.fr wrote:
The first duke of Bourbon who was the son of King Louis IX had been
knocked to the head during a battle. It was the reason why Bourbon were
mentally unstable.

So the ideas of the Chevalier de Lamark (1744-1829) live on?

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 06 feb 2006 08:44:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome


[S]ince the very last line to Doda, and
of course the three to Arnulf himself, are dotted, it is pretty
clear that here we are not talking absolute proof.

Doug McDonald


Yes, and, to tie your post & JL's together - that is THE point of the dotted
lines. To separate hypotheses from certitudes. :) that is why I prefer
charts to text formats, which latter do not allow so much for this readily
recognized distinction. Unfortunately, the entire field of DFA's is
(over)populated with dotted and broken lines. I feel certain that the
genealogy which Dave & I presented in 'The Anicii of Gaul and Rome' is
correct. Christian, I know, feels differently. But until proof is
established, (and it seems to be nastily and spitefully to be not
forthcoming), we will continue to accept the unpleasant necessity of
'dashed' lines. Personally, I should like to see a universal acceptance of
a convention of bold (thick/fat) lines for positive relationships, thin
lines for probable relationships, broken lines (dashes) for plausible
relationships, and dots for possible relationships - the varied solidity of
the lines a sort of 'visual onomatopoeia' for the different degrees of
certainty or credibility.
Respectfully,
Ford

Ian Fettes

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Ian Fettes » 06 feb 2006 09:41:04

Hi Doug,

Genealogics shows 252 lines to Robert Rose over 22 - 29 generations, and
currently no links to William ironmonger.

Cheers,

Ian

Me too .... I'd like to see what you get for William Ironmonger
and the Rev. Robert Rose to Rohese. I have a computer program
that does this, but of course my file is not your file.

I get 177 for Rose and 4 for Ironmonger.

Doug McDonald

______________________________

W David Samuelsen

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av W David Samuelsen » 06 feb 2006 11:22:02

<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-02/1139084053>

I have at least 92 descents from her just to Robert Abell, my 9th
greatgrandfather on my mother's side and I haven't even begin to count
if any from Thomas Ligon/Mary Harris my 10th great grandfather on
father's side.

of 7 children, I have 5 of them to be my ggparents.

David Samuelsen

jlucsoler

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av jlucsoler » 06 feb 2006 17:29:18

i totally agree about this convention.....

oh!!!

there was no trouble with you and christian.... i admire your works... (more
thna you imagine).. but i think, and you do it often, that you have to
inform us about the fraudulent genealogies, how to discover them and about
methods of work.... so that we (maybie) can continue your works with sure
methods and primary sources...

i wish to thanks yoyu and Christian for your help (Christian was so kind and
helpful and patient to explain me lots of trick to detect frauds and how to
works during years!!!!)

i work a lot to learn... and all of you taught me a lot.. but a need more
and more

JL



""Ford Mommaerts-Browne"" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net> a écrit dans le message de
news: 002b01c62af1$e8611800$c4870d44@om.cox.net...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome


[S]ince the very last line to Doda, and
of course the three to Arnulf himself, are dotted, it is pretty
clear that here we are not talking absolute proof.

Doug McDonald


Yes, and, to tie your post & JL's together - that is THE point of the
dotted
lines. To separate hypotheses from certitudes. :) that is why I prefer
charts to text formats, which latter do not allow so much for this readily
recognized distinction. Unfortunately, the entire field of DFA's is
(over)populated with dotted and broken lines. I feel certain that the
genealogy which Dave & I presented in 'The Anicii of Gaul and Rome' is
correct. Christian, I know, feels differently. But until proof is
established, (and it seems to be nastily and spitefully to be not
forthcoming), we will continue to accept the unpleasant necessity of
'dashed' lines. Personally, I should like to see a universal acceptance
of
a convention of bold (thick/fat) lines for positive relationships, thin
lines for probable relationships, broken lines (dashes) for plausible
relationships, and dots for possible relationships - the varied solidity
of
the lines a sort of 'visual onomatopoeia' for the different degrees of
certainty or credibility.
Respectfully,
Ford

W David Samuelsen

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av W David Samuelsen » 06 feb 2006 22:38:01

I have at least 92 descents from her just to Robert Abell, my 9th
greatgrandfather on my mother's side and I haven't even begin to count
if any from Thomas Ligon/Mary Harris my 10th great grandfather on
father's side.

of 7 children, I have 5 of them to be my x-ggparents.

W. David Samuelsen

Chris Phillips

Re: The name of Queen Henriette Marie

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 06 feb 2006 23:06:30

I wrote:
But in a previous post when Leo mentioned "William the Conqueror, Henry
the
Fowler, Heinrich das Kind von Hessen, Catherine the Great", you commented
"I
see that you have referred to all these people by the modern vernacular
forms of their names, not the Latin forms. That is the accepted
practice".

In three of these cases at least (setting aside the glaring inconsistency
of
the other one), by "modern vernacular forms", you presumably meant
"modern
English forms".

Will Johnson replied:
Not modern English, since last I checked "das Kind" is not English.


That's why I said "In three of these cases at least (setting aside the
glaring inconsistency of the other one)" (!)

Of course, none of the people mentioned was a native English speaker.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Ferrers, Ensor, Endesore, Endesovere

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 00:12:02

In a message dated 2/6/06 2:19:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
clive.west3@ukonline.co.uk writes:

<< When William le savage (heir of Geoffrey) died in 1259 (see ipm) his heirs
were Philippa and his nephew Thomas Ensor (son of Thomas and Lucy). This
Thomas had sisters Joan and Amice. Joan married Sir Adam de Hertwell. This
couple had a son Sir Richard de Hertwell who together with Amice were the
heirs in 1285 (ipm) of Thomas Ensor junior. >>

I do not doubt that Thomas Ensor was son of Thomas and Lucy and heir to his
uncle who d 1259.
I also do not doubt that the heirs to Thomas Ensor junior with a Joan de
Hertwell and Amice

However what is your proof that they were sisters of Thomas Ensor rather than
perhaps first cousins?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 00:20:02

In a message dated 2/6/06 1:37:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, dsam@sampubco.com
writes:

<< I have at least 92 descents from her just to Robert Abell, my 9th
greatgrandfather on my mother's side and I haven't even begin to count
if any from Thomas Ligon/Mary Harris my 10th great grandfather on
father's side. >>

Since Rohese is ancestral to James Claypool the immigrant and also to the
immigrant Marie Martin, she is going to be ancestral to quite a large number of
US and Canadian people.
Will Johnson

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 07 feb 2006 00:45:02

Dear Douglas,

Indeed, I did inquire of Margaret Zowche of Farleghe, not Biset. Many
apologies for this rather severe error. I was focused on another
Margaret,"Margaret Biseth, handmaid of Christ,""Damiscelle Margaret biset, "
either sister to Henry Biset or the Margaret who married Roger la Zouche. .
And, thank you for a source I might check for the connection of William la
Zouche of Essex concerning his inheritance of Farleghe Wallop.

Roger la Zouche who married Margaret Biset died in 1238 by whom Alan b. c.
1195 [his children b. 1240-50's], Alice, William la Zouche of Essex per DR,
Lora b. c. 1200, Eudo b. bef. 1207.

A copy of a charter of Henry II shows that Burgate and Rockborne, which
belonged to the king at the time of the Domesdey survey (V. C. H. Hants., i,
455b) were granted with other lands to Manser Bisset before 1175. His lands
descended to the husbands of the daughters of John Bisset (d.1241) and in a
copy of an extract from pleas of the crown, 1280, it is stated that Burgate
was held by John de Ripariis and Rockborne by John de Wotton and Ela, his
wife. A faded document without date apparently records an agreement for the
partition of all the Bisset lands between John de Ripariis John de Wotton
and Ela, his wife, and Hugh de Plessictis and Isabella, his wife.If Manasser
Bisets lands were Kidderminster (Worcs.), and Rockburne Hants and heir, John
Biset, son and heir of John Biset Addressees: King and council.Places
mentioned: Clifton Maybank, [Dorset]; Perret (South Perrott), [Dorset];
Rockbourne, Hampshire.

Oliver la Zouche held land in Fordingbridge Hundred that had belonged to
Hugh le Port, then Hugh de Chernet in 1166. In 1293 Iseult de Chernet was
dealing with the manor [Charford] which passed by inheritance or purchase
to Oliver de la Zouche. His Hampshire property encompassed that in
Fordingbridge and to Buckholte Forest and along the Avon. It was close to
Upper and Nether Wallop but Farleghe lies to the east of Basingstoke.
1305 22 May. Kempston. Grant to Olive le Zusche and his heirs of free warren
in all their demesne lands in Suthchardeford and La Hyde, co. Shamt.
Although the land is adjoining the lands of the Bisets, I have yet to find
the direct connection needed to conclude these lands were an inheritance
from his grandmother. Margaret Biset. Neither can I find Farleghe mentioned
in the Biset lands but am anxious to see the charter rolls between ca. 1228
and 1272 relating to Wiliam la Zouche of Essex inheriting property in
Farleghe.

Perhaps it is Matilda the daughter of Sir John la Zouche who married John
Popham before 1394, but the Zouche the Hants. and possibly Oxon. lands
seemed to have been sold to the Pophams, not possessed through inheritance.

Thank you for replying,
Pat








----------
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines
Date: Mon, 6, 2006, 1:56 PM


My comments are below. DR

"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
All,
In an earlier post, I asked about Margaret Biset of Farlegh Hants. I believe
she was a sister to Henry Biset and not the wife of Roger la Zouche.
May I inquire if there is any substantiation to give William la Zouche of
Essex lands at Farlegh.

Part of Oliver la Zouche's [b. c. 1250] known land lay in Hampshire as well
as Scotland and elsewhere and he had descendants other than John. I am
pursuing the sale of the lands in Hampshire by a later Oliver with wife
Isabel to the Pophams.

]> Pat

In your earlier post, you asked about Margaret la Zouche, of Farleigh
Wallop, Hampshire, who was an early benefactor to Wintney Priory,
Hampshire. I identified her as Margaret Biset, wife of Roger la
Zouche, of North Molton, Devon (died 1238). I suspect that Farleigh
Wallop was part of her maritagium. The manor of Farleigh Wallop
subsequently passed to her younger son, Sir William la Zouche, then to
his son, William la Zouche the younger, then to his full sister, Joyce
la Zouche, wife of Robert de Mortimer, then to Joyce' son, William la
Zouche Mortimer, Lord Zouche, then to William's younger son, Robert la
Zouche, and so forth.

For evidence that Sir William la Zouche (son of Margaret Biset) held
Farleigh Wallop, Hampshire, see Calender of Charter Rolls.

As for the Popham family of Popham, Hampshire, the Popham family were
the eventual heirs of the Zouche family headed by Sir Oliver la Zouche,
born circa 1250.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Brad Verity

Re: Thomas Carus and Anne Huddlestone dau of Miles

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 07 feb 2006 00:51:45

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

While looking for documents on the Whittington family, I came across this
interesting document. I cannot identify these people. Can anyone add details
to this family?

FILE [no title] - ref. DDX 255/1 - date: 8 May, 1594
[from Scope and Content] General livery vesting in Thomas Carus and Anne his
wife (the daughter and heir of the late Miles Huddleston, gent., who died
seised of the following property) -- the manor of Whityngton alias Westhall,

Dear Will,

Anne, the wife of Thomas Carus, was descended from Edward III. I'm not
sure how the Huddlestons of Westhall, Lancashire, fit in with the
Huddlestons of Millom Castle, Cumberland. At any rate, Anne's descent
is:

Edward III
John of Gaunt (1340-1399), Duke of Lancaster m. 3) Katherine Roet
Joan Beaufort (1379-1440) m. 2) Ralph Nevill, Earl of Westmorland
Richard Nevill (c.1400-1460), Earl of Salisbury m. Alice Montague,
Countess of Salisbury
George Nevill (1432-1476), Archbishop of York, by an unknown mistress,
had a dau,
Alice Nevill, m. about 1475/6, Thomas Tunstall (died btwn 1493 & 1499),
and had a dau,
Alice Tunstall (living 1513), m. Richard Huddleston of Westhall, and
had a son & heir,
Bryan Huddleston of Westhall, who had a son and heir,
Miles Huddleston of Westhall, who had a dau & heir,
Anne Huddleston of Westhall m. Thomas Carus

The manors of Whittington are covered in VCH Lancashire, Volume 8,
which is on my list of sources to track down.

Cheers, -------Brad

Gjest

Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 01:01:02

In a message dated 2/6/06 11:05:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< William la Zouche the younger, then to his full sister, Joyce
la Zouche, wife of Robert de Mortimer, then to Joyce' son, William la
Zouche Mortimer, Lord Zouche, then to William's younger son, Robert la
Zouche, and so forth. >>

Douglas, can you specify which wife of William was the father of Robert la
Zouche above ? Leo is showing two wifes but no son Robert at this point.
Thank you.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 01:10:02

In a message dated 2/6/06 10:35:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<<
The date of 1463 for the birth of Sir John Ferrers II of Tamworth comes
from Wedgwood's HOP, which derived it because John II was age 34 at the
death of his grandfather Thomas Ferrers II in 1498. But I think the
1474 birthdate for John II that you mention above is correct. Perhaps
Wedgwood misread age '24' in 1498 for age '34' in 1498. >>

I have this John, son of Maud Stanley and John Ferrers. John, then being
son not to Thomas who d 1498 but rather to Thomas who d 1459 his father.

Do you have anything which suggests that Thomas who d 1498 was father of John
who married Maud Stanley ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 07 feb 2006 01:26:01

Dear John,

Thank you. I was not n the list in early January and will go to Archives for
the discussion.

If I am not mistaken, we has adjusted a date for the elder Roger of
Lubbesthorpe's birth to the 1260's? Re; 1286, 28 Ap. Roger la Zouche of
Lubbsesthorpe "going over seas with K. he nominates attorneys. Obviously,
there is some significant part missing in this understanding.

Conjecture

Eudo la Zouche brother to Alan b. c. 1200-07 m. ??

Sir William la Zouche b. ca. 1230 m. kinswoman of Milicent and was a first
cousin to Eudo who m. MIlicent who gave Lubesthorpe to this William.
[Who was the John la Zouche who witnessed Milicent's charter [1289-1296.]?

Roger la Zouche b. c. 1260 m. Juliana [kinswoman of Milicent] by whom
Roger b. c. 1292 or later
Eudo
Alan

bef. 1255 Milicent de Cantilupo m. John de Montaldt
1268 Milicent de Cantilupo de Montaldt grants William la Zouche, Lobesthorp.
"service of third of knight's fee of the gift of Millicent de Montealto
1276 William la Zouche born to Milicent and Eudes la Zouche; becomes lord of
of Haryngsworth through inheritance from his mother.

What families pose a possible connection? de Boscos, Chamberlyns, etc?

Pat


----------
From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines
Date: Mon, 6, 2006, 3:56 PM


Dear Pat,

Indeed, having the HMC volumes (or at least that concerning the
MSS. of the Duke of Rutland) on line is a benefit.

Back in January, I had posted the text from the same work as part
of the SGM thread <Zouche of Lubbesthorpe (revisited)> ( 8 Jan 2006).
I have reposted the relevant extracts below for ready reference.

What the exact connection is between William, father of Sir Roger,
and the first Eudo la Zouche (ancestor of the Harringworth line) has
not been proven, but I am of the opinion that Eudo la Zouche was a
nephew (not brother) of William, father of Sir Roger (and thereby, a
grandson, not son, of Sir Roger la Zouche and Margaret Bisset). I also
am of the opinion that Juliana, wife of Sir Roger la Zouche of
Lubbesthorpe, was closely related to Millicent de Cantelou, but this is
far from established.

I do think, given the names of the Lubbesthorpe line, that the
link to the Harringworth and 'main' Zouche lines of descent is quite
close; further, the heraldry of the Lubbesthorpe family indicates this
as well.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________________

Historical Manuscripts Commission, The Manuscripts of His
Grace the Duke of Rutland, K.G. Preserved at Belvoir Castle
(London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by
Mackie & Co., LD., 1905) IV:10-11. The text in question
follows:


" [3. LUBBESTHORPE CHARTERS.]


(26) 30 Sept. 1302. - Agreement between William la Zousche and
Juliana relict of Roger la Zousche, by which William grants to
Juliana the custody of the land of Roger son and heir of the
above Roger, of which his father died seised, for twenty-eight
pounds thirteen shillings and fourpence payable to him annually
at Haryngworth, till Roger is of age. And William grants that
ten marcs be allowed to Juliana annually, out of the above ferm,
to the use of her sons Eudo and Alan, which sum was assigned to
them by their father Roger, etc. (long detailed provisions
relating to the wardship).
Armorial seal: Zouche, with a canton.


(26) 15 Jan. 1328-9. - Notification of William la Zouche of
Haringeworthe that he has inspected and confirmed the charter of
Milicent his mother to Roger son of William la Zouche for (de)
the manor of Lubesthorp, as follows:-
[1289-1296.] - Charter of Milisent de Montealto, in her
widowhood, enfeoffing Richard la Zouche, son of Sir
William la Zouche in her manor of Lubesthorp, rendering
therefor to her and her heirs, on June 29 annually, a
chaplet of roses to be placed on the head of the image
of St. Peter in the church of Lubesthorp in her name.
Witnesses: Roger la Zouche, Alan la Zouche, Robert
Neyville, Alexander de harecourt, Andrew de Estoleye,
Peter son of Roger, John Fitz Peter, Henry de Notyngham,
John de Folevyle, knights; master Henry de Brandeston,
and Sirs (domini) Hugh de Brandeston, and John la Zouche.
Witnesses to Inspeximus: Robert Burdet, William Moton the
younger, Robert Champayn, Nicholas Charneyl, Ralph Malure,
knights (and 3 others).
Lubesthorp, Sunday after St. Hilary, 2 Edw. III.
Armorial seal: Zouche with a canton.


(26) Charter of William la Zousch', lord of Haryngworth,
enfeoffing Roger la Zousch', knight, son of Roger la Zousch',
in his manor of Lubbesthorp for the above service.
Lubbesthorpe, Sunday after St. Peter's Chair, 1 Edw. III.
[29 Feb. 1326-7].
Armorial seal: Zouche with a canton.


(26) 13 March 1362-3. - A feoffment by William la Souche,
chivaler, of 'Sires' Reynald son of William Hayward of Dalby
and John Wryght of Somerdeby is witnessed by William abbot of
Leicester, Ralf Turvyll of Normanton and three others.
Armorial seal of William: Zouche with a label.


(26) 6 Oct. 1377. - Receipt from Juliane relict of John Seint
Andrew 'que dieux assoile' to Robert de Swyllyngton 'luncle'
for
six pounds thirteen shillings and fourpence paid her from the
manor of Lubstorp, for the Christmas and Easter terms last past.
Armorial seal: Seint Andrew (mascally, with a label) impaling
Zouche. Legend: S. IU..... O ANDREA.


(26) Deed of William la Zouche of Lobisthorp granting 100
shillings or rent there to Nicholas Grene of Isham, 25 July
37 Ed. III. [1363].
Armorial seal: Zouche with a label.


(26) April 1364. - Deed of William la Zouche of Lubesthorp,
knight, vesting his manor of Lubesthorp in feoffees. Monday
after St. Gregory, 38 Ed. III.
Armorial seal: Zouche with a label.


(26) 6 Nov. 1425. - Lease of the third part of the manor of
Lubbesthorp' from Robert Cunstable of Holme in Spaldyngmore to
Thomas Assheby of Lowesby the elder for the term of his life
and two hundred years beyond, for a hundred shillings a year,
from which Robert undertakes to pay thirty shillings a year to
Katherine relict of Marmaduke Cunstable his father during her
life. Among the witnesses is Thomas Assheby the younger.
Armorial seal of Robert: Quarterly ( ) and vair, a bend.


Counterpart of preceding. Armorial seal of Thomas 'Asseby':
two bars.


(16) Letter of attorney from Robert Constable, knight,
concerning th third part of the manor of Lubbesthorp 5 Nov.,
4 Henry VI. [1425].
Armorial seal: Quarterly ( ) and vair, a bend.


(26) 1433. - Feoffment by Thomas Assheby of Lobesthorp, the
elder, of Ralf Assheby his son, and Isabel, Ralf's wife, in a
third part of the manor of Lobesthorp; to be held in free
marriage, with reversion to himself in default of their having
issue.
Hiis testibus: Roberto Moton milite; Willelmo Trussell milite;
Thoma Fowlehyrst armigero; Baldewino Bugg' armigero; Ricardo
Danet armigero.
Lobesthorp, 28 Jan. 11 Hen. VI [1432/3].
Armorial seal of Thomas: Two bars.


(26) Quitclaim from Robert Constable knight of his rights in
a third part of Lubsthorp, 8 June, 10 Edw. IV. [1470].
Armorial seal: Impaling Quarterly ( ) and vair, a bend. "





"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
All,

I accidentally happened on The Manuscripts of His Grace The Duke of Rutland
on a Google Book Search. Page 10 gives information on the Lubbesthorpe
Charters.

It appears from one dated 1302 an agreement was reached between Juliana, the
relict of Roger la Zouche, dead, in which Roger, son and heir of her husband
Roger was in minority and William la Zouche[of Haryngsworth] has granted her
custody of lands and other items until Roger is of age. It also mentions
Juliana's two sons ALAN and EUDO!

in 1328 William la Zouche of Haryngsworth confirms his mother, Milicent's
charter, in her widowhood (between 1289-1296) to Roger son of SIR William la
Zouche her manor of Lobesthorpe for rendering a chaplet of roses to be
placed on the head of the image of St. Peter in the church of Lubesthorpe in
her name. Witnesses to Milicent's charter were Roger la Zouche, Alan la
Zouche and John la Zouche

The naming of Juliana's two children suggest that perhaps Roger was the
grandson of a Eudo. We know that there was Eudo, brother to Alan, and Eudo
who married Milicent. Could the elder Eudo b. ca. 1200 have had a son
William who may have married a kinswoman of Milicent's? I know this is
reaching.

In an earlier post, I asked about Margaret Biset of Farlegh Hants. I believe
she was a sister to Henry Biset and not the wife of Roger la Zouche.
May I inquire if there is any substantiation to give William la Zouche of
Essex lands at Farlegh.

Part of Oliver la Zouche's [b. c. 1250] known land lay in Hampshire as well
as Scotland and elsewhere and he had descendants other than John. I am
pursuing the sale of the lands in Hampshire by a later Oliver with wife
Isabel to the Pophams.

Any thoughts appreciated.
Pat

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 07 feb 2006 01:27:02

Dear John,

Thank you. I was not n the list in early January and will go to Archives for
the discussion.

If I am not mistaken, we has adjusted a date for the elder Roger of
Lubbesthorpe's birth to the 1260's? Re; 1286, 28 Ap. Roger la Zouche of
Lubbsesthorpe "going over seas with K. he nominates attorneys. Obviously,
there is some significant part missing in this understanding.

Conjecture

Eudo la Zouche brother to Alan b. c. 1200-07 m. ??

Sir William la Zouche b. ca. 1230 m. kinswoman of Milicent and was a first
cousin to Eudo who m. MIlicent who gave Lubesthorpe to this William.
[Who was the John la Zouche who witnessed Milicent's charter [1289-1296.]?

Roger la Zouche b. c. 1260 m. Juliana [kinswoman of Milicent] by whom
Roger b. c. 1292 or later
Eudo
Alan

bef. 1255 Milicent de Cantilupo m. John de Montaldt
1268 Milicent de Cantilupo de Montaldt grants William la Zouche, Lobesthorp.
"service of third of knight's fee of the gift of Millicent de Montealto
1276 William la Zouche born to Milicent and Eudes la Zouche; becomes lord of
of Haryngsworth through inheritance from his mother.

What families pose a possible connection? de Boscos, Chamberlyns, etc?

Pat


----------
From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines
Date: Mon, 6, 2006, 3:56 PM


Dear Pat,

Indeed, having the HMC volumes (or at least that concerning the
MSS. of the Duke of Rutland) on line is a benefit.

Back in January, I had posted the text from the same work as part
of the SGM thread <Zouche of Lubbesthorpe (revisited)> ( 8 Jan 2006).
I have reposted the relevant extracts below for ready reference.

What the exact connection is between William, father of Sir Roger,
and the first Eudo la Zouche (ancestor of the Harringworth line) has
not been proven, but I am of the opinion that Eudo la Zouche was a
nephew (not brother) of William, father of Sir Roger (and thereby, a
grandson, not son, of Sir Roger la Zouche and Margaret Bisset). I also
am of the opinion that Juliana, wife of Sir Roger la Zouche of
Lubbesthorpe, was closely related to Millicent de Cantelou, but this is
far from established.

I do think, given the names of the Lubbesthorpe line, that the
link to the Harringworth and 'main' Zouche lines of descent is quite
close; further, the heraldry of the Lubbesthorpe family indicates this
as well.

Cheers,

John

_______________________________________________________

Historical Manuscripts Commission, The Manuscripts of His
Grace the Duke of Rutland, K.G. Preserved at Belvoir Castle
(London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by
Mackie & Co., LD., 1905) IV:10-11. The text in question
follows:


" [3. LUBBESTHORPE CHARTERS.]


(26) 30 Sept. 1302. - Agreement between William la Zousche and
Juliana relict of Roger la Zousche, by which William grants to
Juliana the custody of the land of Roger son and heir of the
above Roger, of which his father died seised, for twenty-eight
pounds thirteen shillings and fourpence payable to him annually
at Haryngworth, till Roger is of age. And William grants that
ten marcs be allowed to Juliana annually, out of the above ferm,
to the use of her sons Eudo and Alan, which sum was assigned to
them by their father Roger, etc. (long detailed provisions
relating to the wardship).
Armorial seal: Zouche, with a canton.


(26) 15 Jan. 1328-9. - Notification of William la Zouche of
Haringeworthe that he has inspected and confirmed the charter of
Milicent his mother to Roger son of William la Zouche for (de)
the manor of Lubesthorp, as follows:-
[1289-1296.] - Charter of Milisent de Montealto, in her
widowhood, enfeoffing Richard la Zouche, son of Sir
William la Zouche in her manor of Lubesthorp, rendering
therefor to her and her heirs, on June 29 annually, a
chaplet of roses to be placed on the head of the image
of St. Peter in the church of Lubesthorp in her name.
Witnesses: Roger la Zouche, Alan la Zouche, Robert
Neyville, Alexander de harecourt, Andrew de Estoleye,
Peter son of Roger, John Fitz Peter, Henry de Notyngham,
John de Folevyle, knights; master Henry de Brandeston,
and Sirs (domini) Hugh de Brandeston, and John la Zouche.
Witnesses to Inspeximus: Robert Burdet, William Moton the
younger, Robert Champayn, Nicholas Charneyl, Ralph Malure,
knights (and 3 others).
Lubesthorp, Sunday after St. Hilary, 2 Edw. III.
Armorial seal: Zouche with a canton.


(26) Charter of William la Zousch', lord of Haryngworth,
enfeoffing Roger la Zousch', knight, son of Roger la Zousch',
in his manor of Lubbesthorp for the above service.
Lubbesthorpe, Sunday after St. Peter's Chair, 1 Edw. III.
[29 Feb. 1326-7].
Armorial seal: Zouche with a canton.


(26) 13 March 1362-3. - A feoffment by William la Souche,
chivaler, of 'Sires' Reynald son of William Hayward of Dalby
and John Wryght of Somerdeby is witnessed by William abbot of
Leicester, Ralf Turvyll of Normanton and three others.
Armorial seal of William: Zouche with a label.


(26) 6 Oct. 1377. - Receipt from Juliane relict of John Seint
Andrew 'que dieux assoile' to Robert de Swyllyngton 'luncle'
for
six pounds thirteen shillings and fourpence paid her from the
manor of Lubstorp, for the Christmas and Easter terms last past.
Armorial seal: Seint Andrew (mascally, with a label) impaling
Zouche. Legend: S. IU..... O ANDREA.


(26) Deed of William la Zouche of Lobisthorp granting 100
shillings or rent there to Nicholas Grene of Isham, 25 July
37 Ed. III. [1363].
Armorial seal: Zouche with a label.


(26) April 1364. - Deed of William la Zouche of Lubesthorp,
knight, vesting his manor of Lubesthorp in feoffees. Monday
after St. Gregory, 38 Ed. III.
Armorial seal: Zouche with a label.


(26) 6 Nov. 1425. - Lease of the third part of the manor of
Lubbesthorp' from Robert Cunstable of Holme in Spaldyngmore to
Thomas Assheby of Lowesby the elder for the term of his life
and two hundred years beyond, for a hundred shillings a year,
from which Robert undertakes to pay thirty shillings a year to
Katherine relict of Marmaduke Cunstable his father during her
life. Among the witnesses is Thomas Assheby the younger.
Armorial seal of Robert: Quarterly ( ) and vair, a bend.


Counterpart of preceding. Armorial seal of Thomas 'Asseby':
two bars.


(16) Letter of attorney from Robert Constable, knight,
concerning th third part of the manor of Lubbesthorp 5 Nov.,
4 Henry VI. [1425].
Armorial seal: Quarterly ( ) and vair, a bend.


(26) 1433. - Feoffment by Thomas Assheby of Lobesthorp, the
elder, of Ralf Assheby his son, and Isabel, Ralf's wife, in a
third part of the manor of Lobesthorp; to be held in free
marriage, with reversion to himself in default of their having
issue.
Hiis testibus: Roberto Moton milite; Willelmo Trussell milite;
Thoma Fowlehyrst armigero; Baldewino Bugg' armigero; Ricardo
Danet armigero.
Lobesthorp, 28 Jan. 11 Hen. VI [1432/3].
Armorial seal of Thomas: Two bars.


(26) Quitclaim from Robert Constable knight of his rights in
a third part of Lubsthorp, 8 June, 10 Edw. IV. [1470].
Armorial seal: Impaling Quarterly ( ) and vair, a bend. "





"Patricia Junkin" wrote:
All,

I accidentally happened on The Manuscripts of His Grace The Duke of Rutland
on a Google Book Search. Page 10 gives information on the Lubbesthorpe
Charters.

It appears from one dated 1302 an agreement was reached between Juliana, the
relict of Roger la Zouche, dead, in which Roger, son and heir of her husband
Roger was in minority and William la Zouche[of Haryngsworth] has granted her
custody of lands and other items until Roger is of age. It also mentions
Juliana's two sons ALAN and EUDO!

in 1328 William la Zouche of Haryngsworth confirms his mother, Milicent's
charter, in her widowhood (between 1289-1296) to Roger son of SIR William la
Zouche her manor of Lobesthorpe for rendering a chaplet of roses to be
placed on the head of the image of St. Peter in the church of Lubesthorpe in
her name. Witnesses to Milicent's charter were Roger la Zouche, Alan la
Zouche and John la Zouche

The naming of Juliana's two children suggest that perhaps Roger was the
grandson of a Eudo. We know that there was Eudo, brother to Alan, and Eudo
who married Milicent. Could the elder Eudo b. ca. 1200 have had a son
William who may have married a kinswoman of Milicent's? I know this is
reaching.

In an earlier post, I asked about Margaret Biset of Farlegh Hants. I believe
she was a sister to Henry Biset and not the wife of Roger la Zouche.
May I inquire if there is any substantiation to give William la Zouche of
Essex lands at Farlegh.

Part of Oliver la Zouche's [b. c. 1250] known land lay in Hampshire as well
as Scotland and elsewhere and he had descendants other than John. I am
pursuing the sale of the lands in Hampshire by a later Oliver with wife
Isabel to the Pophams.

Any thoughts appreciated.
Pat

Ginny Wagner

RE: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 07 feb 2006 02:08:01

Just to add a bit:

From, Notes on the Montacute Cartulary, Two Cartularies
Augustinian Priory of Bruton and the Cluniac Priory of
Montacute, County of Somerset, found on Google Books.

M.56 Roger de Mortimer died in 1282. His wife Matilda was
one of the daughters and coheirs of William de Braose. John
de Hastings and William de la Zouche were her great-nephews,
being grandsons of her sister Eva, who married William de
Cantilupe. Their claim to Odcombe was derived through the
above-mentioned William de Braose, whose mother was one of
the daughters and coheirs of William Briwere.

There are several other mentions of Zouche as Zousche,
Soushe, Zuche according to the index.

Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com

Brad Verity

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 07 feb 2006 02:12:43

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

I have this John, son of Maud Stanley and John Ferrers. John, then being
son not to Thomas who d 1498 but rather to Thomas who d 1459 his father.

No, John I is still son of Thomas II:

Thomas I Ferrers of Tamworth (d. 1459), had a son and heir,
Thomas II Ferrers of Tamworth (d. 1498) m. 1448, and had a son,
John I Ferrers (b. c.1449/50, dvp 1484/5) m. Maud Stanley of Elford,
and had a son,
John II Ferrers of Tamworth (b. c.1474), succeeded his grandfather in
1498

Do you have anything which suggests that Thomas who d 1498 was father of John
who married Maud Stanley ?

Yes, the biographies of John Ferrers I & John Ferrers II in Wedgwood's
HOP quote from the 1498 will of Thomas Ferrers II, which makes the
relationships clear.

Cheers, --------Brad

Gjest

Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 02:17:01

Dear John,
As I understand what You have for the la Zouche family at
present, You have Duke Conan IV`s mother Bertha, daughter of Duke Conan III
married after 1146 (death of Count Alan of Brittany, Earl of Richmond) as 2nd
husband Eudes, who assumed the title of Duke and by him was mother of Alan la
Couche who married Alice de Belmeis and had sons William and Roger, who was heir
to William in 1199, Roger la Zouche married Margaret Bisset. ? Was Roger of
Lubbesthorpe the son of the William who died in 1199 (Cp XII (2) pp 931-932
Roger had sons Alan married Elena de Quincy and Eudo who married Millicent de
Cantelou. Roger`s wife Juliana was a possible kinswoman (maybe even a sister) of
Millicent de Cantelou.
See AR 7 lines 38 and 39
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 02:42:02

In a message dated 2/6/06 5:15:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< Thomas I Ferrers of Tamworth (d. 1459), had a son and heir,
Thomas II Ferrers of Tamworth (d. 1498) m. 1448, and had a son,
John I Ferrers (b. c.1449/50, dvp 1484/5) m. Maud Stanley of Elford,
and had a son,
John II Ferrers of Tamworth (b. c.1474), succeeded his grandfather in
1498 >>

Who was the mother of John b c 1449/50 ?
The only wife I show to this Thomas was Anne Hastings mar abt 1468
Thanks
Will johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 07 feb 2006 02:54:36

Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:

< Was Roger of Lubbesthorpe the son of the William who died in 1199 (Cp
XII (2) pp 931-932

< Sincerely,
< James W. Cummings

Dear Jim ~

Yes, this is what John Ravilious said. However, I don't think he was
paying attention to the Zouche family pedigree, or the chronology.
Regardless he probably mislead someone less informed on the newsgroup.

I place Roger la Zouche of Lubbesthorpe as a younger son of Sir William
la Zouche (died 1272), of King's Nympton, Devon, Norton,
Northamptonshire, and Farleigh Wallop, Hampshire, Sheriff of Surrey and
Sussex, Justice of Chester, by a 2nd wife, Joan. Sir William la Zouche
(died 1272) was a brother of Sir Alan la Zouche (died 1270), of Ashby
de la Zouch, Leicestershire, and Sir Eudes la Zouche (died 1279), of
Harringworth, Northamptonshire.

It is commonly thought that Sir William la Zouche (died 1272) was
survived by a sole daughter and heiress, Joyce, who married (1st)
Nicholas de Whelton and (2nd) Robert de Mortimer. However, my research
indicates that Sir William la Zouche was actually survived by a son and
heir, William la Zouche the younger. On William the younger's death,
his lands passed to his full sister, Joyce, to the exclusion of their
half-brother, Roger. The exclusion of the heir of the half-blood was
the custom in England in that time period.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

P.S. Did the man in Harvey get this?

Gjest

Re: Clifford Confusion: Daughters of the 1st Earl of Cumberl

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 03:03:02

In a message dated 2/6/06 2:05:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< The only Sir John Huddleston of Millom Castle, Cumberland appears to be
the son and heir of Sir John Huddleston of Millom and Southam,
Gloucestershire (d. 1 January 1512), and his 2nd wife Joan Stapleton.
He was born about 1488, and died in 1547 >>


Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Volborth", pg 786-789; Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962

says this line goes like this
John /Huddleston/ of Millum and Jane (Joan) /Stapleton/, dau of Miles
/Stapleton/ d 1466
had a son
John /Huddleston/ d abt 1511 married Joan /FitzHugh/

I don't see a chronological problem having another John generation in here.
This last John would then be the father of the John that you're hypothecizing
married Jane Clifford

Will Johnson

Brad Verity

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 07 feb 2006 03:31:20

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Who was the mother of John b c 1449/50 ?
The only wife I show to this Thomas was Anne Hastings mar abt 1468

You have the correct wife and the wrong date. Anne Hastings (sister of
Edward IV's best friend William, Lord Hastings) and Thomas Ferrers II
of Tamworth were married in 1448. Anne was alive in 1485, but died
before her husband.

---Brad

Gjest

Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 03:47:01

Dear Douglas and John,
I`m curious to know why if Roger la
Zouche of Lubbesthorpe were the son of the William La Zouche who died in 1199, why
did William`s lands pass to his younger brother Roger instead of his son
Roger unless the son Roger were William`s illegitimate son ? I am inclined to
believe Douglas` premise that Alan and Eudo`s brother William died 1272 unless
John or anyone else knows why Roger of Lubbesthorpe was apparently
disenfranchised in the majority of the la Zouche lands as He would have represented the
senior la Zouche line.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Robert Harney

Re: Sir John Ferrers MP

Legg inn av Robert Harney » 07 feb 2006 03:53:01

Will,
The original document states clearly that Amicia was SOROR PREDICTI
THOMAE and that Thomas had DUAS SORORES QUARUM UNA JOHANNA

Could there be better proof

Robert

On 7 Feb 2006, at 00:08, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/6/06 10:35:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:


The date of 1463 for the birth of Sir John Ferrers II of Tamworth
comes
from Wedgwood's HOP, which derived it because John II was age 34
at the
death of his grandfather Thomas Ferrers II in 1498. But I think the
1474 birthdate for John II that you mention above is correct.
Perhaps
Wedgwood misread age '24' in 1498 for age '34' in 1498.

I have this John, son of Maud Stanley and John Ferrers. John,
then being
son not to Thomas who d 1498 but rather to Thomas who d 1459 his
father.

Do you have anything which suggests that Thomas who d 1498 was
father of John
who married Maud Stanley ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Robert Harney

Re: Ferrers, Ensor, Endesore, Endesovere

Legg inn av Robert Harney » 07 feb 2006 03:55:02

Will,
The original document states clearly that Amicia was SOROR PREDICTI
THOMAE and that Thomas had DUAS SORORES QUARUM UNA JOHANNA

Could there be better proof

Robert

On 6 Feb 2006, at 23:10, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/6/06 2:19:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
clive.west3@ukonline.co.uk writes:

When William le savage (heir of Geoffrey) died in 1259 (see ipm)
his heirs
were Philippa and his nephew Thomas Ensor (son of Thomas and
Lucy). This
Thomas had sisters Joan and Amice. Joan married Sir Adam de
Hertwell. This
couple had a son Sir Richard de Hertwell who together with Amice
were the
heirs in 1285 (ipm) of Thomas Ensor junior.

I do not doubt that Thomas Ensor was son of Thomas and Lucy and
heir to his
uncle who d 1259.
I also do not doubt that the heirs to Thomas Ensor junior with a
Joan de
Hertwell and Amice

However what is your proof that they were sisters of Thomas Ensor
rather than
perhaps first cousins?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Brad Verity

Re: Clifford Confusion: Daughters of the 1st Earl of Cumberl

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 07 feb 2006 04:28:58

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Volborth", pg 786-789; Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962

says this line goes like this
John /Huddleston/ of Millum and Jane (Joan) /Stapleton/, dau of Miles
/Stapleton/ d 1466
had a son
John /Huddleston/ d abt 1511 married Joan /FitzHugh/

Dear Will,

The source above is incorrect. The Sir John Huddleston of Millom who
married Jane Stapleton was the following:

Sir JOHN HUDDLESTON, born about 1440/45, 2nd son of Sir John Huddleston
(c.1420-1493), of Millom Castle. As a younger son, he forged a path in
Gloucestershire, where he purchased the manor of Southam, and was
constable of Sudeley Castle 1478, sheriff of Gloucestershire 1482 &
1499. At the death of his childless nephew (only son of his elder
brother Sir Richard) in 1503, he inherited Millom Castle, which was
entailed to male heirs, and so could not be inherited by his two
nieces. Sir John married 1st, Joan, daughter of Henry, 5th Lord
Fitzhugh & Alice Neville, and a first cousin to Margaret, wife of his
older brother Sir Richard. Joan d.s.p. He married 2nd, about 148-,
Jane Stapleton (born about 1444), widow of Sir Christopher Harcourt, of
Great Ashby, and younger daughter & co-heir of Sir Miles Stapleton, of
Ingham, Norfolk. Sir John died 1 January 1512, Joan died May 1519.
They are buried at Hailes Abbey, Gloucestershire. They had (from what
I could find so far) a son and a daughter:

B1) Sir JOHN HUDDLESTON, of Millom Castle and Southam, Gloucestershire,
born about 1488.

B2) ELIZABETH HUDDLESTON, married 1st, ---- Leigh, of Isel Hall,
Cumberland; married 2nd, about 1509, Sir Edward Redman (d. 27 September
1510), of Harewood, Yorkshire, and died about 1529.

I don't see a chronological problem having another John generation in here.
This last John would then be the father of the John that you're hypothecizing
married Jane Clifford

The Sir John Huddleston of Millom (c.1488-1547) who was the son and
heir of the elder Sir John and Jane Stapleton, is the husband assigned
to Joan Clifford in several online pedigrees, with Joan as his first
wife. But this is problematical. Joan Clifford, if she existed, could
not have been born before 1518/20, as her parents were married about
1516 and her eldest brother was born about 1517. So she would have
been at least thirty years younger than this Sir John Huddleston.

The woman given in online pedigrees as Sir John's second wife after
Joan Clifford was no doubt his first wife. She is Joan Seymour,
daughter of Sir John Seymour of Wolf Hall, Wiltshire, by his wife
Elizabeth Darrell. She was the aunt of Jane Seymour who married Henry
VIII in 1536, as well as aunt to Lord Protector Somerset. No doubt
this helped the Huddlestons of Millom. Sir John and Joan Seymour had 3
sons & 1 dau. Sir John had another wife after Joan Seymour. She was
Joyce Prickley of Worcestershire, by whom he had 2 sons and 1 dau.

ANTHONY HUDDLESTON, the eldest son of Sir John Huddleston and Joan
Seymour, inherited Millom Castle on his father's death. Anthony was
born 1518, so chronologically a much better fit for a daughter of the
1st Earl of Cumberland. There is record of Anthony's marriage at
Little Haseley, Oxfordshire in 1541 to Mary Barantyne, daughter of Sir
William Barantyne of Little Haseley and his 2nd wife Anne Eton.
[Fittingly, Mary's elder half-sister Margaret Barantyne married Sir
John Harcourt, a descendant of the first marriage of Joan Stapleton,
Anthony's grandmother.] So, as Anthony was age 23 at his marriage to
Mary, there is time for a childhood previous marriage to a Clifford.

One of the sons of Sir John Huddleston by his wife Joyce Prickley was
Andrew Huddleston, who was born about 1532, married the heiress to the
manor of Hutton-John, and founded that line of Huddlestons. Given that
Joan Clifford could not have been born before 1518, and that Sir John
and his wife Joan Seymour had three children after 1518, then she died,
and he had a child by wife Joyce Prickley about 1532, Joan Clifford
could not have married Sir John between these two wives. We don't know
whether or not Joyce Prickley survived her husband.

So, to sum up as I see it so far. If a daughter of the 1st Earl of
Cumberland named Joan existed and married into the Huddlestons of
Millom, it could have been as:

1) The much-younger third and final (not first, as is usually given)
wife of Sir John Huddleston (c.1488-1547).

2) The early childhood first wife of Anthony Huddleston (1518-1598).

Either way, she apparently left no issue.

Cheers, -----Brad

Katheryn_Swynford

Re: OT When did it become legal to marry one's sister-in-law

Legg inn av Katheryn_Swynford » 07 feb 2006 09:01:16

But that's only for Levites, not all of humanity. The intention is the
continuity of the Levitical line IIRC. It is to continue the dead
brother's religious patrimony. The children are to be raised as those
of the dead brother's rather than your own.

But it's an issue made all the more interesting by gossip that John of
Gaunt (d. 1399, son of England's Edward III) had nearly contemporaneous
adulterous sexual relations with the sisters Roet, Katherine Swynford
and Philippa Chaucer. H.A. Kelly did a nice job of explaining what a
disaster that would have been; by the 1500s in Norway a nobleman was
'smoked, roasted or burnt' to death as a result of having done exactly
that (namely, having married his dead wife's sister: I don't recall the
citation exactly but you can find it as I cited it in my FMG article on
Katherine Roet's Swynfords).

And, yes, the law was almost certainly known at the time: Katharine of
Aragon I believe noted in her response to the divorce court that the
Levitical law didn't apply to Christians.

Anybody?

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: John Needham, b. 1575 of Syston, Leicestershire

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 07 feb 2006 12:09:02

<<I am working on the genealogy of the aforementioned John
Needham/Nedham/Nedeha, who attended Lincoln College in 1587. (at least,
according to a surname dictionary). His family line traces through
Syston, and then Queniborough, Leicestershire, until the family becomes
a group of Baptist ministers who run amok all over England. But that's
another story. So far, the only proof I have of John's existence is the
Lincoln College entry and his children's information (which I am still
working on *solid* evidence for). I'm a bit baffled as to where to begin
for Leicestershire near-medieval and medieval level sources to try and
understand who his parents were.>>


George Farnham's six volume Leicestershire Medieval Village Notes
(Leicester, 1928-33) is usually useful, and there is also his briefer
Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees (1925). The former has extracts from
a large number of medieval and early modern sources such Lay Subsidy
Rolls, Fines, de Banco rolls, IPMs, Hearth Tax rolls etc for nearly
every parish in Leicestershire, arranged by parish. A monumental work,
but unfortunately not indexed.

Sadly Syston seems to be one of the parishes not covered by Medieval
Village Notes. I did have a quick glance at the chapter on Illston on
the Hill, since Alumni Oxoniensis tells us there was a contemporary John
Needham from there however, and found that the Needham family only
arrived there in 1588, when Francis Needham bought the manor from St
John Boroughe alias Burgh (which is confirmed by Nichols - see below -
and the Victoria County History). He was succeeded by his son John and
the family was still there in the 1660s.

The other usual source for Leicestershire is Nichols' History and
Antiqities of the County of Leicester, in 4 volumes, each in 2 parts
(Wakefield, 1795-1811, republ. 1971 by Leics CC). This does cover
Syston, and I had a very brief glance through the relavant chapter, but
could see no reference to any Needhams.

The Victoria County History only has one volume of parish histories,
covering Gartree Hundred only - Illston is in Gartree, but Syston is in
East Goscote Hundred, so the VCH is no use there.

Matt Tompkins
(presently just a few miles from both Syston and Illston)

Gjest

Re: OT When did it become legal to marry one's sister-in-law

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 15:06:01

In a message dated 2/7/2006 12:05:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com writes:

But that's only for Levites, not all of humanity. The intention is the
continuity of the Levitical line IIRC. It is to continue the dead
brother's religious patrimony. The children are to be raised as those
of the dead brother's rather than your own.



Since the first person we know of to do this was not a Levite, than I
suggest it wasn't only for Levites.

Gjest

Re: OT When did it become legal to marry one's sister-in-law

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 15:08:01

In a message dated 2/7/2006 12:05:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com writes:

And, yes, the law was almost certainly known at the time: Katharine of
Aragon I believe noted in her response to the divorce court that the
Levitical law didn't apply to Christians.


The other thing Judy is, that if this was so clear, she would not have had
to note it.
Right?
Will Johnson

Patricia Junkin

Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 07 feb 2006 17:22:01

I realize that several sources say Roger succeeded his brother William who
is supposed to have died in 1199. Other than secondary sources, I cannot
confirm this 1199 death date. He went by the name William la Zouche de
Belmeis. Why do we not say that William la Zouche de Belmeis died 1199? He
was not apparently the William who confirmed the gifts of his ancestors to
Swavesey unless there is another charter.
Willielmus la Zouche, filius Rogeri la Zouche, salutem in Domino
sempiternam. Noveritis nos inspexisse omnes chartas et munimenta Rogeri
patris nostri, ac chartaset munimenta Alani Zouche avi nostri quondam
comitis Britanniae facta priori de Swavesey.
Since his brother Roger was born in the 1175 time frame, do we suppose that
William had no heirs? Did all of his inheritance pass to Roger? And what of
the possibility of a son Philip?

Douglas explains that William [CPXII/2 p. 957 ] of Kyngs Nympton was of
Essex. apparently an inheritance from his father Roger who married Margaret
Biset. The manor [Black Torrington] was given with Kings Nympton to Joel de
"Meduana" by Henry I, to Geoffrey de Luscy by King John, then by Henry III
to Roger La Zouche. 1219, Roger la Zuche was granted a Wed market, to be
held at the manor. Mandate to the sheriff of Devon to cause him to have the
market and to proclaim it (RLC, i, p. 391). In 1281, William la Suche called
to warranty Roger la Sushe, who stated that Black Torrington, with its
market, had been held by Joelus del Meyne. It had been taken into the king¹s
hands and subsequently granted to Roger la Susche, his grandfather, to be
held as it had been held by Joelus. Roger, then, partitioned the manor
between his William of Essex and, probably Alan who married Elena de Quincy.
Did Alan's brother, Eudo, have no inheritance? 1251 PLEAS OF THE CROWN 36
HENRY III [1251­2] Richard son of the Parson on London Bridge was attached
by Ivor la Suche and William la Suzche ---here Ivo/Eudo an adult, certainly
born 1230 or before.

Douglas, I will quite understand if you do not wish, but could you share the
date of the Charter Rolls that confirms William of Essex as William of
Fareleghe?

Why does Kings Nympton not descend in the line of William of Essex but
through Mortimer?
1314 Alan la Zouche IPM Devon. Inq. 5 May 7 E II [1314] King¹s Nymet
[Nympton]. The manor held by Geoffrey de Cornwall in chief by knights
service.
Blaketoriton. The manor held by Emery la Zuche by knights service. 1289
Emery (Almaricus) son and heir of William de la Zusche alias la Zouche.

I believe that assigning Roger of Lubbesthorpe as a younger son of William
of Essex, ignores the close connection with Milicent Cantilupe.

I am anxious to understand why William of Essex is also considered the
Sheriff of Sussex?
There is a pre 1190 Grant at an annual rent of 1 lb. of pepper corn by Alan
la Scuche and Alice de Belmeis his wife to William de Alta Ripa [Dawtrey]
for homage and on remission to (Alan) of the right which (William) had in
(Alan's)'s woods (nemoribus) of Forsistnd' Sussex. Was William la Zouche de
Belmeis charged scutage on 3 knight¹s fees in Sussex in 1196? Ameri de la
Souche has Hundred of Westesewryth in 1316. .Zouche properties in Sussexare
in the hands of Alan la Zouche in 1313 who grants Zouche of Richard's castle
these properties.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I believe there are too many
unplaced males to conclude absolutely many of these questions.
Pat
----------
From: Jwc1870@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Lubbesthorpe Redux and other Zouche lines
Date: Mon, 6, 2006, 8:15 PM


Dear John,
As I understand what You have for the la Zouche family at
present, You have Duke Conan IV`s mother Bertha, daughter of Duke Conan III
married after 1146 (death of Count Alan of Brittany, Earl of Richmond) as 2nd
husband Eudes, who assumed the title of Duke and by him was mother of Alan la
Couche who married Alice de Belmeis and had sons William and Roger, who was
heir
to William in 1199, Roger la Zouche married Margaret Bisset. ? Was Roger of
Lubbesthorpe the son of the William who died in 1199 (Cp XII (2) pp 931-932
Roger had sons Alan married Elena de Quincy and Eudo who married Millicent de
Cantelou. Roger`s wife Juliana was a possible kinswoman (maybe even a sister)
of
Millicent de Cantelou.
See AR 7 lines 38 and 39
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Katheryn_Swynford

Re: OT When did it become legal to marry one's sister-in-law

Legg inn av Katheryn_Swynford » 07 feb 2006 18:09:45

In Katherine's own lifetime people were still burned for the offense of
marrying a dead spouse's sibling, so it would seem that it really
wasn't considered universally cricket.

See:

Christopherson, K # (March, 1986). Lady Inger and Her Family: Norway's
exemplar of mixed motives in the reformation. Church History, 55 (1).
The American Society of Church History.

Kelly, H Ansgar (1991). Shades of Incest and Cuckoldry: Pandarus and
John of Gaunt. Studies in the Age of Chaucer, 13. Tennessee:
Publications of the New Chaucer Society, pp. 136-7.

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com

Gjest

Re: Death Date of Sir Ralph Bowes of Streatlam

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 feb 2006 18:21:02

According to "The Bowes of Streatlam" by Christine M Newman, Durham County
Local History Society 1999 - its 1512

Rose
Epsom Downs/UK

John Higgins

Hudleston [was: Clifford Confusion: Daughters of the 1st Ear

Legg inn av John Higgins » 07 feb 2006 18:29:02

FWIW the Hudleston pedigree in Foster's edition of the visitations of
Cumberland and Westmorland appears to confuse the various John Hudlestons
and their wives. It lists the brothers Richard, John and William, but says
that they are sons of Sir John and Jane Stapleton. The younger Sir John
(one of the three brothers) is said to have mar. a FitzHugh daughter, and
his son Sir John is shown as having three wives: (1) a Clifford, (2) a dau.
of Sir John Seymour, (3) Joyce Prickley, who was the mother of his children.

The Sir John (father of the three brothers) who is said here to have mar.
Jane Stapleton is also indicated as having two daughters : Anne, 1st wife of
Thomas Curwen (d. 1522), and Mary (d. 20 May 1525) who mar. 1483 John
Pennington of Muncaster (d. 28 June 1516). This John Hudleston is said to
be son and grandson of two Richard Hudlestons and great-grandson of another
Sir John who mar. a Fenwick. I suspect that these earlier generations, as
well as the various Sir Johns, have been confused in the visitation
pedigree - at least as compared with the Burke's pedigree.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Clifford Confusion: Daughters of the 1st Earl of Cumberland


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Volborth", pg 786-789; Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962

says this line goes like this
John /Huddleston/ of Millum and Jane (Joan) /Stapleton/, dau of Miles
/Stapleton/ d 1466
had a son
John /Huddleston/ d abt 1511 married Joan /FitzHugh/

Dear Will,

The source above is incorrect. The Sir John Huddleston of Millom who
married Jane Stapleton was the following:

Sir JOHN HUDDLESTON, born about 1440/45, 2nd son of Sir John Huddleston
(c.1420-1493), of Millom Castle. As a younger son, he forged a path in
Gloucestershire, where he purchased the manor of Southam, and was
constable of Sudeley Castle 1478, sheriff of Gloucestershire 1482 &
1499. At the death of his childless nephew (only son of his elder
brother Sir Richard) in 1503, he inherited Millom Castle, which was
entailed to male heirs, and so could not be inherited by his two
nieces. Sir John married 1st, Joan, daughter of Henry, 5th Lord
Fitzhugh & Alice Neville, and a first cousin to Margaret, wife of his
older brother Sir Richard. Joan d.s.p. He married 2nd, about 148-,
Jane Stapleton (born about 1444), widow of Sir Christopher Harcourt, of
Great Ashby, and younger daughter & co-heir of Sir Miles Stapleton, of
Ingham, Norfolk. Sir John died 1 January 1512, Joan died May 1519.
They are buried at Hailes Abbey, Gloucestershire. They had (from what
I could find so far) a son and a daughter:

B1) Sir JOHN HUDDLESTON, of Millom Castle and Southam, Gloucestershire,
born about 1488.

B2) ELIZABETH HUDDLESTON, married 1st, ---- Leigh, of Isel Hall,
Cumberland; married 2nd, about 1509, Sir Edward Redman (d. 27 September
1510), of Harewood, Yorkshire, and died about 1529.

I don't see a chronological problem having another John generation in
here.
This last John would then be the father of the John that you're
hypothecizing
married Jane Clifford

The Sir John Huddleston of Millom (c.1488-1547) who was the son and
heir of the elder Sir John and Jane Stapleton, is the husband assigned
to Joan Clifford in several online pedigrees, with Joan as his first
wife. But this is problematical. Joan Clifford, if she existed, could
not have been born before 1518/20, as her parents were married about
1516 and her eldest brother was born about 1517. So she would have
been at least thirty years younger than this Sir John Huddleston.

The woman given in online pedigrees as Sir John's second wife after
Joan Clifford was no doubt his first wife. She is Joan Seymour,
daughter of Sir John Seymour of Wolf Hall, Wiltshire, by his wife
Elizabeth Darrell. She was the aunt of Jane Seymour who married Henry
VIII in 1536, as well as aunt to Lord Protector Somerset. No doubt
this helped the Huddlestons of Millom. Sir John and Joan Seymour had 3
sons & 1 dau. Sir John had another wife after Joan Seymour. She was
Joyce Prickley of Worcestershire, by whom he had 2 sons and 1 dau.

ANTHONY HUDDLESTON, the eldest son of Sir John Huddleston and Joan
Seymour, inherited Millom Castle on his father's death. Anthony was
born 1518, so chronologically a much better fit for a daughter of the
1st Earl of Cumberland. There is record of Anthony's marriage at
Little Haseley, Oxfordshire in 1541 to Mary Barantyne, daughter of Sir
William Barantyne of Little Haseley and his 2nd wife Anne Eton.
[Fittingly, Mary's elder half-sister Margaret Barantyne married Sir
John Harcourt, a descendant of the first marriage of Joan Stapleton,
Anthony's grandmother.] So, as Anthony was age 23 at his marriage to
Mary, there is time for a childhood previous marriage to a Clifford.

One of the sons of Sir John Huddleston by his wife Joyce Prickley was
Andrew Huddleston, who was born about 1532, married the heiress to the
manor of Hutton-John, and founded that line of Huddlestons. Given that
Joan Clifford could not have been born before 1518, and that Sir John
and his wife Joan Seymour had three children after 1518, then she died,
and he had a child by wife Joyce Prickley about 1532, Joan Clifford
could not have married Sir John between these two wives. We don't know
whether or not Joyce Prickley survived her husband.

So, to sum up as I see it so far. If a daughter of the 1st Earl of
Cumberland named Joan existed and married into the Huddlestons of
Millom, it could have been as:

1) The much-younger third and final (not first, as is usually given)
wife of Sir John Huddleston (c.1488-1547).

2) The early childhood first wife of Anthony Huddleston (1518-1598).

Either way, she apparently left no issue.

Cheers, -----Brad

MLS

Triboulet and Ruspini families

Legg inn av MLS » 07 feb 2006 18:31:01

Did someone can help me on researching about the

TRIBOULET family, from Reims, France

And also the RUSPINI family, Italian, but also originated from France?

Thanks in advance
Marco Lupis



-----Original Message-----
From: Maytree4@aol.com [mailto:Maytree4@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 6:19 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Death Date of Sir Ralph Bowes of Streatlam


According to "The Bowes of Streatlam" by Christine M Newman, Durham
County
Local History Society 1999 - its 1512

Rose
Epsom Downs/UK



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