Blount-Ayala

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Ginny Wagner

RE: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 27 jan 2006 06:51:02

Hi Todd,

Thank you for responding to my question and for helping me
figure out how to do the xy line. It is interesting ... I
hadn't thought about trying to follow the Bender name, for
instance although that would take me back into Germany. I
wonder if there was something that happened there in the
late 19c that would encourage a migration to the U.S.

I found your answer about what you have done for your
genealogy very interesting. Do you think it was worth the
time and expense to verify it with primary source documents?
If you had it to do again, would you?

Best,
Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com

steven perkins

Re: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av steven perkins » 27 jan 2006 07:22:41

I'll play :

mtDNA:

Mary Ruth Ball 1927-1960 dau of
Rosa Genetta Swain 1895-1961 dau of
Mary E Kidd 1863-1900
Maliza Stephens 1822-1891
Susan Hayes, 1781 SC-1884, Fentress Co., TN

Y:

Edward Perkins, d circa 1684 New Haven, CT. IF he is the half-brother
of Rev Capt William Perkins of Topsfield, MA (as stated in a now
destroyed 18th century diary quoted in the Connecticut Magazine, vol
IX, pp 666-667) then back to John Perkins of Salford Priors,
Warwickshire, Eng d by 15 March 1541/42 when his will was proved.
Donald Lines Jacobus' mother was from this Perkins family. [1]

XY:
Abigail Pennington, b ~1798 Wilkes Co., NC d before 1855, KY or TN,
wife of Abraham Strunk. Abraham and Abigail settled in KY next to
Wells Pennington who was also from Wilkes/Ashe Cos, NC.

[1] Only 1 line of the 3 sons of Edward Perkins, John, Jonathan and
David, has been tested in the Perkins Y DNA study. Looking for direct
male descendants of Jonathan and David Perkins of New Haven to test.
Two lines from two grandsons of John Perkins have been tested and they
are 37 marker matches to each other. They are 32 marker matches to
the "Somerled" signature of the McDonalds.


--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html

Running with scissors

Re: DNA - Can you enlighten?

Legg inn av Running with scissors » 27 jan 2006 09:22:53

On root@newsarch.rootsweb.com, , Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:14:12 +0000
(UTC), Re: DNA - Can you enlighten?, norenxaq@san.rr.com
(norenxaq) wrote:


Bob Turcott wrote:

time to close this discussion your lies and false statements about your
background are not needed on this forum, I am going to recommend to the
moderator to have you removed.


this group has no moderators. also, Todd is one of the owners

Hahahah!
Bye Bob.
Don't let the door catch you on the butt on the way out.

Running with scissors

Re: DNA - Can you enlighten?

Legg inn av Running with scissors » 27 jan 2006 09:22:54

On root@newsarch.rootsweb.com, , Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:10:03 +0000
(UTC), Re: DNA - Can you enlighten?, bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob
Turcott") wrote:

noren,

ask me if I care. He is crap and he knows it and his web sites lousy

And your mother wears army boots and she dresses you ugly.

Katheryn_Swynford

Re: Knightly class (was Henrietta Maria etc)

Legg inn av Katheryn_Swynford » 27 jan 2006 09:36:15

Matt,

Thank you for the reference list of articles to study vis-a-vis the
topic of the knightly class.

You state that:

"But for all later periods [e.g., post-12th century] knighthood was
only available to ever higher levels of society. Naturally some people
managed to climb to knighthood from more humble origins - but the point
is that they had to rise to the knightly level."

and yet, the one family I've tried to chart seemingly belies both that
and the claims reportedly advanced by Douglas Richardson re: ownership
of 3-5 manors (I am relying upon your post for this information).

The Swynford family of Thomas Swynford -> Hugh m. Katherine Roet
->Thomas Swynford et al. seemingly did NOT rise to the "higher levels
of society" you suggest nor did they belong to the 3-5 manors ownership
club purportedly advanced by Douglas Richardson (indeed, the IPM of the
first Thomas Swynford of my chain above showed only ownership of part
of the manor of Coleby, Lincs., and the manor of Kettlethorpe, also
Lincs., yet the descriptions of each painted the opposite portrait of
that of manorial wealth). And, indeed, neither manor had been in the
family fortunes for long, as the first Thomas Swynford purchased them
during his lifetime (what his own patrilineal fortunes, whatever they
may have been, were, are difficult to identify, perhaps because they
were insignificant).

The last Thomas Swynford was a knight, favored by both Richard II and
Henry IV, and yet shortly before his death was an outlaw for
indebtedness and had but little to pass on to his descendants. His
half-brother, the great Cardinal Henry Beaufort, almost certainly stuck
his neck out to an emerging political noose to pull strings to snare
the marriage of a well-endowed Beauchamp heiress for Thomas' son, and
yet it seemingly got the family nowhere in the long-run.

And, so, I remain confused. Perhaps, on the whole, you and Douglas are
both correct... and still, perhaps, there was a palpable element of
fluidity to the whole issue of what exactly constituted the 'knightly
class' for the medieval period in England.

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com

Gjest

matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 jan 2006 10:48:02

Might as well join in as well!

Y
William Fairthorne, husbandman of Upper Lambourn, Berkshire, d between 1553
and 20 October 1554

X
Ann Harrison, married Jophn Watson a gardener 1819 St Mary Lancaster, said
to come from near Appleby in Westmoreland

XY
John Beanland Robertshaw, a cloth dresser, b ca 1805, died 1879 Bradford
Yorkshire

father's XY
Col John Naper of Loughcrow co Meath died before July 1719

cheers

Simon

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Knightly class (was Henrietta Maria etc)

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 27 jan 2006 12:51:01

Dear Judy,

A couple of preliminary points: first, we're talking here about a broad
social and economic class, not a precisely and legally defined caste -
there are always going to be exceptions and overlaps with other social
groups and individuals who buck the general trend. And at no time was
ownership of a specified number of manors, or indeed any manors, a
pre-condition of knighthood or of membership of the knightly class.
Second, the nature and significance of knighthood changed over time.

The Swynfords you're talking about were living, mostly, in the 14th
century. At this period knighthood was well on the way to becoming just
the upper-most layer of the gentry (a slightly anachronistic term, but a
convenient one) - a social stratum sandwiched between the titled
nobility above and the esquires below. By and large only the wealthier
or better connected esquires were knighted, but of course there were
always exceptions - knighthood still carried some connotations of
military prowess and it was easier for a poorer or less well-connected
but militarily active individual to become a knight.

I don't know a great deal about the Swynfords, but I gather the three
you mentioned were:

1. Thomas Swynford, died early 14C?, held a manor and part of another,
fairly obscure, not a knight, in fact a fairly typical esquire of the
period.

2. His son Hugh (fl 1368) who did become a knight and who married into
the household of one of the most powerful men in England, who seems to
be a good example of someone climbing to knightly status through a
combination of good connections (service to John of Gaunt, Duke of
Lancaster) and military prowess (in the service of John of Gaunt). I
don't know enough about him to be sure, but I suspect his knighthood and
marriage both followed his service to the Duke, not preceeded it.

3. His son Thomas (1368-1432) who was a knight - hardly surprising,
given his connections; he was the Duke of Lancaster's step-son and
half-brother of the earls of Somerset and (in a sense) Derby, brought up
in a comital household. A good example of a man who was a knight
because he was born into the upper echelons of the 'gentry', at its
uppermost edge where it blurred into the title nobility.

On the whole these three individuals seem to provide a good illustration
of the nature of knighthood in 14C England.

By the way, that list of three articles and a book wasn't intended as a
comprehensive reading list - it was just an example of how easily
references to the knightly class can be found by a simple google search.

Regards,

Matt Tompkins


-----Original Message-----
From: Katheryn_Swynford [mailto:katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com]
Sent: 27 January 2006 08:36
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Knightly class (was Henrietta Maria etc)

Matt,

Thank you for the reference list of articles to study vis-a-vis the
topic of the knightly class.

You state that:

"But for all later periods [e.g., post-12th century] knighthood was only
available to ever higher levels of society. Naturally some people
managed to climb to knighthood from more humble origins - but the point
is that they had to rise to the knightly level."

and yet, the one family I've tried to chart seemingly belies both that
and the claims reportedly advanced by Douglas Richardson re: ownership
of 3-5 manors (I am relying upon your post for this information).

The Swynford family of Thomas Swynford -> Hugh m. Katherine Roet
->Thomas Swynford et al. seemingly did NOT rise to the "higher levels
of society" you suggest nor did they belong to the 3-5 manors ownership
club purportedly advanced by Douglas Richardson (indeed, the IPM of the
first Thomas Swynford of my chain above showed only ownership of part of
the manor of Coleby, Lincs., and the manor of Kettlethorpe, also Lincs.,
yet the descriptions of each painted the opposite portrait of that of
manorial wealth). And, indeed, neither manor had been in the family
fortunes for long, as the first Thomas Swynford purchased them during
his lifetime (what his own patrilineal fortunes, whatever they may have
been, were, are difficult to identify, perhaps because they were
insignificant).

The last Thomas Swynford was a knight, favored by both Richard II and
Henry IV, and yet shortly before his death was an outlaw for
indebtedness and had but little to pass on to his descendants. His
half-brother, the great Cardinal Henry Beaufort, almost certainly stuck
his neck out to an emerging political noose to pull strings to snare the
marriage of a well-endowed Beauchamp heiress for Thomas' son, and yet it
seemingly got the family nowhere in the long-run.

And, so, I remain confused. Perhaps, on the whole, you and Douglas are
both correct... and still, perhaps, there was a palpable element of
fluidity to the whole issue of what exactly constituted the 'knightly
class' for the medieval period in England.

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 27 jan 2006 15:29:28

In article <BAY106-F8C3D955A07B8A8408681AD5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: crusaders


snip
possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will
need to do further
study in this area to be certain.

Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter,
from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.

Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome
back Mr cotter!!!
You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott'
would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name
element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain
it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's
_Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on
their formation and typology.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Bob Turcott

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 27 jan 2006 15:51:01

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: crusaders


snip
possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I will
need
to do further
study in this area to be certain.

Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter,
from
'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.

Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome

back Mr cotter!!!
You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/

Bob Turcott

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 27 jan 2006 16:51:02

From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT

In article <BAY106-F8C3D955A07B8A8408681AD5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: crusaders


snip
possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I
will
need to do further
study in this area to be certain.

Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter,
from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.

Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?
Welcome
back Mr cotter!!!
You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott'
would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name
element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain
it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's
_Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on
their formation and typology.

Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire..

To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature for me to buy at this time.
However, I will take a look at this english dictionary, hovever the
consulatation
of a French dictionary may also be in order here.
You must understand that not all cultures elongate and shorten names in the
same manner or sequence..So further study is needed in this area, especially
when we don't have all the sources
specified here for french origins, a decision clearly cannot be made at this
time.
Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm


_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/

Nathaniel Taylor

re: Turcott; was re: crusaders

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 27 jan 2006 17:02:37

In article <BAY106-F2493355C2283121C2D4EE4D5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT

In article <BAY106-F8C3D955A07B8A8408681AD5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: crusaders


snip
possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I
will
need to do further
study in this area to be certain.

Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter,
from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.

Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?
Welcome
back Mr cotter!!!
You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott'
would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name
element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain
it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's
_Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on
their formation and typology.

Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire..
To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature for me to buy at this time.
However, I will take a look at this english dictionary...

You must understand that not all cultures elongate and shorten names in the
same manner or sequence..So further study is needed in this area, especially
when we don't have all the sources
specified here for french origins, a decision clearly cannot be made at this
time.

Well, I stand corrected. Ford, Matt and I were assuming the name was of
middle English origin, which it certainly looked like. And we see so
many queries here in which people have read implausible, bogus French
origins assigned to perfectly ordinary English surnames, that we assumed
that 'Turcott' (which *looks* English with the two 't's and without a
final 'e'), belonged in the same category.

However, googling for a minute shows that Turcotte IS a
French-Quebecois name, and the name's virtual absence in England
supports a French origin. In France, it is true that the diminutive
suffix '-ot' or '-otte' is a standard evolution path for French names.

One on-line French etymological name-dictionary ...

http://jeantosti.com/indexnoms.htm

.... confirms the idea that 'Turcotte' comes from the feminine diminutive
'-otte' , added to the epithet-name 'Turc' (or 'le Turc'). I don't know
which of the various printed works one can find (e.g. the big dictionary
/ CD-ROM by Marie-Odile Mergnac, or Laurent Herz's, _Dictionnaire
etymologique des noms de famille francais d'origine etrangere et
regionale, etc.) has the best reputation for good etymology and data on
early usage, but I would look into those works.

Now, how much is known of the precise geographic and social origins of
the earliest documented Quebecois settlers bearing the surname? What's
the best source in France that (like Reaney's dictionary for England)
provides referenced examples of medieval or early-modern users of
surnames? From booksellers' descriptions it looks as if Marie-Odile
Mergnac's dictionary focuses on modern (19th-20th c.) distribution.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: crusaders

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 27 jan 2006 17:15:40

<<It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an
'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name element in it,
'-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it. >>


It was I who suggested to Bob that Turcott might have originated as a
pet form of Turc, so I ought defend my suggestion.

Middle English commonly produced pet forms of names by first shortening
them (eg Thomas to Tom; Richard to Rick, Dick, Hick; Robert to Rob, Hob,
Dob etc) and then adding one of a list of suffixes, -kin, -el, et, -in
being the most common (thus producing, for example, Tomkin, Tomsett,
Tomlin - the last is a double suffix, Tom-el-in). This what Bob means
by an elongated version.

Reaney and Wilson said something to the effect that von Feilitzen
explained the Cambridgeshire Domesday references to Turch, Turcus, as
the Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with an A-N loss of the -ell, and
added that it seemed clear to them that Turc was used as a pet form of
the Scandinavian name.

If so, then it is quite possible that the pet form Turc-et also existed,
and gave rise to a patronymic surname. The modern spelling of Turcott
need not limit us to looking for a place-name origin. The difference
between Turcott and Turcett is insignificant enough to allow an origin
as a patronym.

It also occurs to me that if Thorkell could be shortened to Turk by loss
of the -ell, so also could the Anglo-Scandinavian name Thorketil be
shortened to Turket.

That said, I do think an origin as a place-name is the most likely
explanation for Turcott, as I said in my own post earlier. And I am
curious to know why Bob is so sure the name is French. What is the
evidence for this? Is it that he has traced the surname back to
emigrants from France?

Lastly, Ford's suggestion that the first holder of the surname might
have been a cottar is to conflate two distinct stages in the formation
of a toponymic surname. The place-name Turcott would have been formed
because it consisted of cotlands, or cottars lived there. However the
surname could (indeed would probably) have been formed centuries later,
when someone took his name from the place. By then the tenurial nature
of the place would probably have changed, and that person need not have
been a cottar - indeed he could even have been the lord of the place.

Matt Tompkins

Denis Beauregard

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 27 jan 2006 17:16:25

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:48:52 +0000 (UTC), FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford
Mommaerts-Browne") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Dear Bob,
Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic], (or,
possibly, Danish), name, derived from Tor (Thor), which at such a time and
place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.
Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames, which
you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le', became
common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm socially;
much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically)
shorten their names. However, the forenames William and Robert, (which you
cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case for
these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.

Non sense.

Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:


TURCOT name found at Mouilleron-en-Pareds (Vendée) in 1610 and 1617,
but records are missing 1618 to 1700.

There is an Abel TURCAULT in the parish of St-Maurice-le-Girard, same
town.

In French, -OT or -AULT or -AUT or -EAUX etc. are common meaningless
terminations. Root is definitely TURC or TURQUE. Since family names
appeared in the 1300s, you have to think about what it could mean
at that time. It was after the crusades, so it could mean someone
with dark skin or dark hair or very strong (an expression in French
means strong as a Turk), but also many other local words.

See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom ... le/nom.asp
for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendée),
as other variations are less common.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1716 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mes associations de généalogie: http://www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén. can.-fr.)
oo oo http://www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 27 jan 2006 17:55:23

In article <BAY106-F2643EB23A2E5D96525DB1AD5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: Denis Beauregard <no@nospam.com.invalid

Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:

TURCAULT or TURQUAULT are mispellings and I have listed the first 4 settlers
on another post
also the dit name of Tureau is also a gross mispelling, because of
eduacation or understanding
of french names especially in the 16oo's, a lot of people did not know how
to write french names properly, especially the united states, even city
clerks have an imagination...

See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom ... le/nom.asp
for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendee),
as other variations are less common.

Well, this distribution engine (thanks for citing it, Denis) DOES have
'Turquault', at least, as a spelling variant in and around the Vendee in
the late 19th century, so it is not only the Quebecois who butcher the
spelling that way (and of course only a French speaker would consider
using that spelling for a name he hears that sounds like 'Turk-oh'). I
would say 'Turcot' is the 'normative' spelling of this rather than the
only 'proper' spelling.

The big concentration of 'Turcot' in the Vendee in the earliest period
this applet uses (1890s - 1915) suggests that it may well be a surname
with a single male ancestor in France--or that the 'Turc' nickname was
only current in that region when the surname solidified.

Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've
already seen of origins of specific emigres to Quebec) or distribution
of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late
19th century? The IGI has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Bob Turcott

re: Turcott; was re: crusaders

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 27 jan 2006 18:00:02

From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: re: Turcott; was re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:02:37 GMT

In article <BAY106-F2493355C2283121C2D4EE4D5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT

In article <BAY106-F8C3D955A07B8A8408681AD5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: crusaders


snip
possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I
will
need to do further
study in this area to be certain.

Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a
cotter,
from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.

Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?
Welcome
back Mr cotter!!!
You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that
'Turcott'
would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name
element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain
it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's
_Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on
their formation and typology.

Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire..
To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature for me to buy at this
time.
However, I will take a look at this english dictionary...

You must understand that not all cultures elongate and shorten names in
the
same manner or sequence..So further study is needed in this area,
especially
when we don't have all the sources
specified here for french origins, a decision clearly cannot be made at
this
time.

Well, I stand corrected. Ford, Matt and I were assuming the name was of
middle English origin, which it certainly looked like. And we see so
many queries here in which people have read implausible, bogus French
origins assigned to perfectly ordinary English surnames, that we assumed
that 'Turcott' (which *looks* English with the two 't's and without a
final 'e'), belonged in the same category.

However, googling for a minute shows that Turcotte IS a
French-Quebecois name, and the name's virtual absence in England
supports a French origin. In France, it is true that the diminutive
suffix '-ot' or '-otte' is a standard evolution path for French names.

One on-line French etymological name-dictionary ...

http://jeantosti.com/indexnoms.htm

... confirms the idea that 'Turcotte' comes from the feminine diminutive
'-otte' , added to the epithet-name 'Turc' (or 'le Turc'). I don't know
which of the various printed works one can find (e.g. the big dictionary
/ CD-ROM by Marie-Odile Mergnac, or Laurent Herz's, _Dictionnaire
etymologique des noms de famille francais d'origine etrangere et
regionale, etc.) has the best reputation for good etymology and data on
early usage, but I would look into those works.

Now, how much is known of the precise geographic and social origins of
the earliest documented Quebecois settlers bearing the surname? What's
the best source in France that (like Reaney's dictionary for England)
provides referenced examples of medieval or early-modern users of
surnames? From booksellers' descriptions it looks as if Marie-Odile
Mergnac's dictionary focuses on modern (19th-20th c.) distribution.

Matt, knowing the genealogy here are the first 4 settlers named Turcot that

migrated to new france in the mid 1600"s to mid 1700's, the last one is my
ancestor.
TURCOT, Abel (M). INSEE:85154. Pl: Mouilleron-en-Pareds. Zone: Vendée.
Dest: Québec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85065. Pl: Chavagnes-en-Paillers (St-Pierre). Zone:
Vendée. Dest: Québec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85092. Pl: Fontenay-le-Comte. Zone: Vendée. Dest:
Québec.

TURCOT dit TURREAU, François (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doué-la-Fontaine
(St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie

source my website
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... ttevol.htm

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm


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Bob Turcott

RE: crusaders

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 27 jan 2006 18:06:01

From: "Tompkins, M.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:15:33 -0000

It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott' would be an
'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name element in it,
'-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain it.


It was I who suggested to Bob that Turcott might have originated as a
pet form of Turc, so I ought defend my suggestion.

I never suggested it, to be quite frank here, I used this forum to check a

possible bogus paper
written by a company that sell coats of arms and the like...
Middle English commonly produced pet forms of names by first shortening
them (eg Thomas to Tom; Richard to Rick, Dick, Hick; Robert to Rob, Hob,
Dob etc) and then adding one of a list of suffixes, -kin, -el, et, -in
being the most common (thus producing, for example, Tomkin, Tomsett,
Tomlin - the last is a double suffix, Tom-el-in). This what Bob means
by an elongated version.

Middle english forget about it!!! not relevant...

Reaney and Wilson said something to the effect that von Feilitzen
explained the Cambridgeshire Domesday references to Turch, Turcus, as
the Old Norse personal name Thorkell, with an A-N loss of the -ell, and
added that it seemed clear to them that Turc was used as a pet form of
the Scandinavian name.

There are a lot more books on this sunject besides the dooms day book and

using
this as an only source would be a severe injustice and lack of repect for my
ancestors.
If so, then it is quite possible that the pet form Turc-et also existed,
and gave rise to a patronymic surname. The modern spelling of Turcott
need not limit us to looking for a place-name origin. The difference
between Turcott and Turcett is insignificant enough to allow an origin
as a patronym.

Not relevant at this time

It also occurs to me that if Thorkell could be shortened to Turk by loss
of the -ell, so also could the Anglo-Scandinavian name Thorketil be
shortened to Turket.

not relevant

That said, I do think an origin as a place-name is the most likely
explanation for Turcott, as I said in my own post earlier. And I am
curious to know why Bob is so sure the name is French. What is the
evidence for this? Is it that he has traced the surname back to
emigrants from France?

Yes, I have indeed! Infact my ancestor Francois Turcot dit Tureau married

catherine Doiron
mariés le 17 janvier 1740 à St-Pierre de Port Toulouse, Acadie
(St.Peter, Nouvelle Écosse)


Francois Turcott married Jeanne Perodeau. (Francois Turcot's grandparents)

(Francois Turcot's parents)Their son, Francois was born in La Rochelle, St.
Bartholomew's parish. This Francois married Jeanne Bidet, 2 Sep 1709. She
was dau. of Pierre Bidet and Jeanne Renault, The marriage took place at Doue
La Fontaine, Anjou, France.

They had a son, Francois, who came to Acadia, born at Doue, 7 May 1710 .
(this Francois is the husband of Cather DOIRON)

Source: Les Amities Genealogiques Canadiennes Francaises, No. 11, 2000,
pages 33 - 35. Article by Jean-Marie Germe Les Amities Genealogiques
Canadiennes Francaises


Lastly, Ford's suggestion that the first holder of the surname might
have been a cottar is to conflate two distinct stages in the formation
of a toponymic surname. The place-name Turcott would have been formed
because it consisted of cotlands, or cottars lived there. However the
surname could (indeed would probably) have been formed centuries later,
when someone took his name from the place. By then the tenurial nature
of the place would probably have changed, and that person need not have
been a cottar - indeed he could even have been the lord of the place.

Matt Tompkins


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Bob Turcott

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 27 jan 2006 18:25:13

From: Denis Beauregard <no@nospam.com.invalid
Reply-To: denis.b-at-francogene.com.invalid@nospam.com.invalid
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:16:25 -0500

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:48:52 +0000 (UTC), FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford
Mommaerts-Browne") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Dear Bob,
Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic],
(or,
possibly, Danish), name, derived from Tor (Thor), which at such a time
and
place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.
Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames,
which
you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le',
became
common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm
socially;
much the same as American immigrants of a later period would (ironically)
shorten their names. However, the forenames William and Robert, (which
you
cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case
for
these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.

Non sense.

Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:

TURCAULT or TURQUAULT are mispellings and I have listed the first 4 settlers

on another post
also the dit name of Tureau is also a gross mispelling, because of
eduacation or understanding
of french names especially in the 16oo's, a lot of people did not know how
to write french names properly, especially the united states, even city
clerks have an imagination...
TURCOT name found at Mouilleron-en-Pareds (Vendée) in 1610 and 1617,
but records are missing 1618 to 1700.

There is an Abel TURCAULT in the parish of St-Maurice-le-Girard, same
town.

In French, -OT or -AULT or -AUT or -EAUX etc. are common meaningless
terminations. Root is definitely TURC or TURQUE. Since family names
appeared in the 1300s, you have to think about what it could mean
at that time. It was after the crusades, so it could mean someone
with dark skin or dark hair or very strong (an expression in French
means strong as a Turk), but also many other local words.

See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom ... le/nom.asp
for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendée),
as other variations are less common.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1716 -
http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mes associations de généalogie: http://www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén.
can.-fr.)
oo oo http://www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La
Jemmerais)


_________________________________________________________________
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Bob Turcott

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 27 jan 2006 19:03:00

Denis,

My apologies in this reply, see below.


From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:25:04 +0000




From: Denis Beauregard <no@nospam.com.invalid
Reply-To: denis.b-at-francogene.com.invalid@nospam.com.invalid
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:16:25 -0500

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:48:52 +0000 (UTC), FordMommaerts@Cox.net ("Ford
Mommaerts-Browne") wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Dear Bob,
Re. Ricardus filius Torke: Torke looks, to me, to be an Anglish [sic],
(or,
possibly, Danish), name, derived from Tor (Thor), which at such a time
and
place, (i.e. eleventh-to-thirteenth-century Yorkshire) was not uncommon.
Re. William le Turk: With the introduction of Norman-type surnames,
which
you mentioned, the insertion of a 'de', or, less frequently, a 'le',
became
common practice, in an effort to climb into the dominant paradigm
socially;
much the same as American immigrants of a later period would
(ironically)
shorten their names. However, the forenames William and Robert, (which
you
cite), being French, would seem to indicate that such was not the case
for
these more Southern 'forebarers' of your surname.

Non sense.

Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:

TURCAULT or TURQUAULT are mispellings and I have listed the first 4
settlers on another post
also the dit name of Tureau is also a gross mispelling, because of
eduacation or understanding
of french names especially in the 16oo's, a lot of people did not know how
to write french names properly, especially the united states, even city
clerks have an imagination...

TURCOT name found at Mouilleron-en-Pareds (Vendée) in 1610 and 1617,
but records are missing 1618 to 1700.

There is an Abel TURCAULT in the parish of St-Maurice-le-Girard, same
town.
You are correct one branch is indeed Turcault, it escaped my memory, then

later changed to Turcot however further research in this area is needed,
This may be a differant liniage from mine but further checking is needed..
In French, -OT or -AULT or -AUT or -EAUX etc. are common meaningless
terminations. Root is definitely TURC or TURQUE. Since family names
appeared in the 1300s, you have to think about what it could mean
at that time. It was after the crusades, so it could mean someone
with dark skin or dark hair or very strong (an expression in French
means strong as a Turk), but also many other local words.

seems logical denis thanks, will look into this.
See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom ... le/nom.asp
for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendée),
as other variations are less common.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1716 -
http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mes associations de généalogie: http://www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén.
can.-fr.)
oo oo http://www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La
Jemmerais)


_________________________________________________________________
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Nathaniel Taylor

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 27 jan 2006 19:19:45

In article <BAY106-F5AA57183970C1AF3962A4D5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net

Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've
already seen of origins of specific emigres to Quebec) or distribution
of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late
19th century? The IGI has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.

Nat,
knowing the genealogy here are the first 4 settlers named Turcot that
migrated to new france in the mid 1600"s to mid 1700's, the last one is my
ancestor.
TURCOT, Abel (M). INSEE:85154. Pl: Mouilleron-en-Pareds. Zone: Vendee.
Dest: Quebec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85065. Pl: Chavagnes-en-Paillers (St-Pierre). Zone:
Vendee. Dest: Quebec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85092. Pl: Fontenay-le-Comte. Zone: Vendee. Dest:
Quebec.

TURCOT dit TURREAU, Francois (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doue-la-Fontaine
(St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie

Bob, thanks for this. I saw them on your website too. My question is
whether there's any French data to document surname use in France (not
just 'Turcot' emigrants) in the 1600s or 1700s? For England, the
National Burial Index, searchable for a particular time period, relies
entirely on extractions from parish registers; it is searchable at

http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/

You can get hits by county for free, but actual records (localized by
parishes) cost money.

The English equivalent of the surname mapping site Denis cited is at
University College, London:

http://cetl2.geog.ucl.ac.uk/UCLnames/default.aspx

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Paul K Davis

RE: Porphyrogeneta?

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 27 jan 2006 19:28:27

"Porphyrogenita" is the feminine of "porphyrogenitus". Originally it meant
born in the special bedroom lined with purple marble, or possibly, born to
someone entitled to wear a purple robe. It was later used usually to mean
a child born to the current emperor (i.e. excluding children born before
his accession). The term was brought into prominence with respect to
Constantine VII, who was technically illegitimate, but whose father took
care that he would be born in the purple bedroom. An analogous concept was
raised by Henry I of England, who claimed that he was the only son of
William the Conqueror born after the conquest of England, and therefore the
legitimate heir to England, though his older siblings were legitimate heirs
to Normandy which William held prior to the conquest.

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Donald Newcomb <DRNewcomb@NOT.attglobal.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 1/25/2006 3:48:30 PM
Subject: Porphyrogeneta?

In my limited understanding, I realize that Porphyrogeneta/Porphyrogenita
means "Born to Purple", but can someone explain exactly how the name was
applied? It was not a family name, right? Was this a cognomen only for the
daughters of the Byzantine Emperor or could it be used by other family
members? BTW, it's not in Webster's Unabridged, so I can't "go look it
up."

--
Donald R. Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

Bob Turcott

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 27 jan 2006 19:29:36

From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:55:23 GMT

In article <BAY106-F2643EB23A2E5D96525DB1AD5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: Denis Beauregard <no@nospam.com.invalid

Old records shown the name to be TURCAULT or TURQUAULT. Example:

TURCAULT or TURQUAULT are mispellings and I have listed the first 4
settlers
on another post
also the dit name of Tureau is also a gross mispelling, because of
eduacation or understanding
of french names especially in the 16oo's, a lot of people did not know
how
to write french names properly, especially the united states, even city
clerks have an imagination...

See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom ... le/nom.asp
for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendee),
as other variations are less common.

Well, this distribution engine (thanks for citing it, Denis) DOES have
'Turquault', at least, as a spelling variant in and around the Vendee in
the late 19th century, so it is not only the Quebecois who butcher the
spelling that way (and of course only a French speaker would consider
using that spelling for a name he hears that sounds like 'Turk-oh'). I
would say 'Turcot' is the 'normative' spelling of this rather than the
only 'proper' spelling.

The big concentration of 'Turcot' in the Vendee in the earliest period
this applet uses (1890s - 1915) suggests that it may well be a surname
with a single male ancestor in France--or that the 'Turc' nickname was
only current in that region when the surname solidified.

Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've
already seen of origins of specific emigres to Quebec) or distribution
of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late
19th century? The IGI has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.

Nat,

knowing the genealogy here are the first 4 settlers named Turcot that
migrated to new france in the mid 1600"s to mid 1700's, the last one is my
ancestor.
TURCOT, Abel (M). INSEE:85154. Pl: Mouilleron-en-Pareds. Zone: Vendée.
Dest: Québec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85065. Pl: Chavagnes-en-Paillers (St-Pierre). Zone:
Vendée. Dest: Québec.

TURCOT, Jean (M). INSEE:85092. Pl: Fontenay-le-Comte. Zone: Vendée. Dest:
Québec.

TURCOT dit TURREAU, François (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doué-la-Fontaine
(St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm


_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/o ... direct/01/

Paul K Davis

Re: Porphyrogeneta?

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 27 jan 2006 19:35:48

As with most pre-modern nations, the "hard" rule was to have a bigger army
and the "fast" rule was to be in the capital when the previous ruler died.
(Come to think of it, these rules aren't completely dead even now.)

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: <Mississippienne@gmail.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Date: 1/26/2006 7:15:21 PM
Subject: Re: Porphyrogeneta?

I know Manuel I succeeded in preference to his elder brothers, but
Basilios II wasn't porphyrogenitos, and he succeeded ahead of his
porphyrogenitos brother, Konstantinos VIII. There didn't seem to be any
hard and fast rules.

Denis Beauregard

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 27 jan 2006 19:39:57

Le Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:55:23 GMT, Nathaniel Taylor
<nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:

In article <BAY106-F2643EB23A2E5D96525DB1AD5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:


See http://notrefamille.com/v2/services-nom ... le/nom.asp
for distribution of the names. Try with TURCOT (half are in Vendee),
as other variations are less common.

Is there any way to get a listing (other than the citations we've
already seen of origins of specific emigres to Quebec) or distribution
of holders of this (or any) name in France in a period before the late
19th century? The IGI has hits based mostly on these Quebecois emigres.

There are many French databases with a French interface. Some are
free (limited details) other require to buy tokens or to be member
of a society. In that case, the index is free but usually will not
cover all the French departements. In most cases, data is limited to
existing records and the previous generation (i.e. parents). Not
very relevant for medieval search.


http://www.geneanet.org
index of personal data from many users. of limited help when the name
is very common, in particular when someone migrated to Quebec and has
a lot of descendants (you will have to dig among those descendants
before seeing something new).

http://www.geneabank.org
central database for many genealogical societies. membership required
but you can view data from any other societies.

http://www.bigenet.org and http://www.genealogy.tm.fr (http://www.genealogie.com has the
same database)
2 commercial databases. bigenet is the official database of the
French federation but societies can be member of the federation
and put their data in both databases or even in the database of
the competitor only


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1716 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mes associations de généalogie: http://www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén. can.-fr.)
oo oo http://www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

Douglas Richardson

Re: Knightly class

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 jan 2006 20:48:53

Dear Matt ~

Regarding the pre-1200 time period, I think it's virtually impossible
to arrive any firm conclusions at all about the "knightly class" in
England before 1200, especially since the records often fail to
indicate who was a knight and who wasn't. At best, the surviving
evidence only gives us a glimpse of what was taking place in society at
that time regarding knighthood. This is true for both knighthood and
for land ownership. After 1200, records of land ownership records get
much better, and men are acknowledged with regularity as knights.

As we sail in the 1400's, however, it's increasingly more common for
trustees to hold lands for land owners and for men to lease their
estates to tenants on long term leases. It was also common for people
to undervalue the income of their estates when asked to provide that
information. Likewise, surviving widows and widowers could tie up
family estates for 30 or more years, such as Hubert de Burgh did with
his wife, Beatrice de Warenne's estates. Moreover, knighted men often
derved income from their wives who had dower from a previous marriage,
which marriages were sometimes contracted in childhood. It also became
common for a man to settle a manor on his younger son for the term of
his life, rather than make an outright gift to the son. Also, if a
daughter had a maritagium, and if she had no issue or if her issue
failed, her maritagium usually reverted back to her father's heir. As
such, one must study the land holdings of families over several
generations and over several counties to get the big picture of who
owned what and when.

Not surprisingly, I often find properties going in and out of records
for individual families, with no obvous explanation. A good example is
Upwell and Outwell, Norfolk, which properties are known to have been
part of the Wormegay inheritance of Beatrice de Warenne, who died in
1214. According to VCH Cambridge, these properties don't register in
the records as being held by her Bardolf heirs until 1304.

Suffice to say, we can derive general ideas about knighthood and
associated land tenure in the medieval time period in England, but they
must always be qualified by the clear difficulty in determining who was
and wasn't a knight and also by what estates they owned at any specific
time period. One able historian who has attempted to tackle this
complex question is Roskell, whose biographies of members of Parliament
often touch on the crazy quilt pattern of land ownership that affected
a given individual's life.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Denis Beauregard

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 27 jan 2006 21:25:24

Le Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:19:45 GMT, Nathaniel Taylor
<nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:

TURCOT dit TURREAU, Francois (M). INSEE:49125. Pl: Doue-la-Fontaine
(St-Pierre). Zone: Maine-et-Loire. Dest: Acadie

Bob, thanks for this. I saw them on your website too. My question is

The original data is on my site. This particular database is now
obsolete and I have a new one with migrants by French departement
or country, and town, and also a full alphabetical index for those
married before 1721. My sources are numerous, including first
hand and second hand records. My scope is the French colonies of
the American continent, so it is in immigrant database and not an
emigrant database. Nonetheless, I have in my computer or available
in Montreal some ressources about emigrants like passengers' lists.

If your interest is France, then we should continue this in
soc.genealogy.french.

whether there's any French data to document surname use in France (not
just 'Turcot' emigrants) in the 1600s or 1700s? For England, the
National Burial Index, searchable for a particular time period, relies
entirely on extractions from parish registers; it is searchable at

See my other message in this thread.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1716 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec-genealogy/
/ | Mes associations de généalogie: http://www.SGCF.com/ (soc. gén. can.-fr.)
oo oo http://www.genealogie.org/club/sglj/index2.html (soc. de gén. de La Jemmerais)

Gordon Banks

Re: Knightly class

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 27 jan 2006 22:19:16

At what point did the military aspect stop being a requirement of
knighthood? It must have been some time prior to Sir Isaac Newton, as I
am quite sure he never was required to wield a sword.

On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 11:48 -0800, Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Matt ~

Regarding the pre-1200 time period, I think it's virtually impossible
to arrive any firm conclusions at all about the "knightly class" in
England before 1200, especially since the records often fail to
indicate who was a knight and who wasn't. At best, the surviving
evidence only gives us a glimpse of what was taking place in society at
that time regarding knighthood. This is true for both knighthood and
for land ownership. After 1200, records of land ownership records get
much better, and men are acknowledged with regularity as knights.

As we sail in the 1400's, however, it's increasingly more common for
trustees to hold lands for land owners and for men to lease their
estates to tenants on long term leases. It was also common for people
to undervalue the income of their estates when asked to provide that
information. Likewise, surviving widows and widowers could tie up
family estates for 30 or more years, such as Hubert de Burgh did with
his wife, Beatrice de Warenne's estates. Moreover, knighted men often
derved income from their wives who had dower from a previous marriage,
which marriages were sometimes contracted in childhood. It also became
common for a man to settle a manor on his younger son for the term of
his life, rather than make an outright gift to the son. Also, if a
daughter had a maritagium, and if she had no issue or if her issue
failed, her maritagium usually reverted back to her father's heir. As
such, one must study the land holdings of families over several
generations and over several counties to get the big picture of who
owned what and when.

Not surprisingly, I often find properties going in and out of records
for individual families, with no obvous explanation. A good example is
Upwell and Outwell, Norfolk, which properties are known to have been
part of the Wormegay inheritance of Beatrice de Warenne, who died in
1214. According to VCH Cambridge, these properties don't register in
the records as being held by her Bardolf heirs until 1304.

Suffice to say, we can derive general ideas about knighthood and
associated land tenure in the medieval time period in England, but they
must always be qualified by the clear difficulty in determining who was
and wasn't a knight and also by what estates they owned at any specific
time period. One able historian who has attempted to tackle this
complex question is Roskell, whose biographies of members of Parliament
often touch on the crazy quilt pattern of land ownership that affected
a given individual's life.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 27 jan 2006 22:32:07

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: crusaders


Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found? Welcome
back Mr cotter!!!
You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

Thanks! I have a room-mate who likes to point out that I have a great sense
of humour; I'm just not funny.
F

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 27 jan 2006 22:41:30

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: crusaders


In article <BAY106-F8C3D955A07B8A8408681AD5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: crusaders


snip
possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I
will
need to do further
study in this area to be certain.

Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a cotter,
from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.

Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?


Actually, the Thor for whom the 'cottage' would have been named need not
have been the God Thor. Thor is still a not uncommon name and name particle
in Scandinavia. The intrepid Heyerdahl comes to mind. Also, I attended
university with a Swanson whose brother was named Torger. And there was Tor
Johnson, the 'B' horror-movie actor, whose memorable lines included such
gems as, 'You eat now!', and, 'Time for go to bed!'. Tor was a big man in
the business. So big that he broke Ed Woods toilet just by sitting on it.
Today's installment from Ford's House of Trivia


Welcome
back Mr cotter!!!
You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott'
would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name
element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain
it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's
_Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on
their formation and typology.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 27 jan 2006 22:45:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: crusaders




From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:29:28 GMT

In article <BAY106-F8C3D955A07B8A8408681AD5140@phx.gbl>,
bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:

From: "Ford Mommaerts-Browne" <FordMommaerts@Cox.net
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: crusaders
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:16:30 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Turcott" <bobturcott@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: crusaders


snip
possibilty perhaps Turcott could be elongated version of Turc, I
will
need to do further
study in this area to be certain.

Would suggest that Turcott would indicate an ancestor who was a
cotter,
from 'Thor's cottage', or somesuch similar to that.

Thats funny!!!! Where on this earth would such a cottage be found?
Welcome
back Mr cotter!!!
You have a good sense of humor Ford!!!!

Ford is not joking. It is very unlikely, linguistically, that 'Turcott'
would be an 'elongated' version of Turc. There is a separate name
element in it, '-cott', and Ford has merely stated how experts explain
it. As has already been suggested, you may wish to consult Reaney's
_Dictionary of English Surnames_, and also his more discursive book on
their formation and typology.

Nat, first and foremost, my name is of French origin maine et loire..
To suggest English origin is a bit pre-mature for me to buy at this time.

It's been quite awhile since I've looked a map of France, (been
concentrating on the Niolitic & Mesopotamian); but were not many Normans,
(who would have perpetuated some Norse naming patterns), quite close to
Maine, adjacent even?
Ford

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Isabel Moleyns, wife of Sir Robert Morley

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 28 jan 2006 00:20:23

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/23/06 7:52:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3@aol.com
writes:

' The interest of the Moleyns family in Gresham went back a long way:
it had begun in the mid-fourteenth century as fraudulently as it was to end
in the mid-fifteenth. After Sir Edmund Bacon's death in 1336 or 1337, there
was a good deal of scuffling to lay hands on his estates (as well as on his
widow). William Moleyns, son of John Moleyns, 'the King's yeoman', married
Edmund's daughter, Margery, and made an unsuccessful attempt to deprive John
Burghersh, the grandson of Edmund's other daughter and heir, Margaret, of his
share of the inheritance.

Leo has that Sir Edmund Bacon died in 1349. This date would work better with
the "scuffling" and the attempt to deprive "John Burghersh" who was born 29
Sep 1343 per stirnet and a post here back in June.

Both of John's parents evidently died *in* 1349 per stirnet, and I suppose if
John Burghersh was the heir, then Margaret Bacon must have died v.p. by 1349,
but her husband William Lord Kerdeston was still living. I wonder if the
details of this scuffling are still extant and can be found and posted ? That
would help clear up the chronology here.

Will Johnson



I have the following record which indicate that Edmund died in 1336/7.


1361
Inq. p.m. EDMUND BACON
Oxford. Manors of Ewelm, 'Spenseresfee', etc.
"Edmund died about the feast of the Annunciation, 10 Edward III, exact
date unknown.
He married one Joan de Brewes, by whom he had a daughter Margery, who
was married to William de Kerdeston and had a daughter Maud, who was
married to John Burgwash and had a son John de Burgwash. He also married
Margery Pounynges, by whom he had a daughter Margery, who was married to
William Molyns. This margery and John de Burgwash aforesaid are his
heirs. She is 21 years of age and more, and he is 18 years of age. The
lady de Mohun has the custody of the premises by the the king's grant,
and has received the issues thereof."
CIPM 11:11,12,

Regards

Paul

Douglas Richardson

Re: Scolastica

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 jan 2006 00:25:23

The English form of the Latin name, Benedictus/Benedicta, is Bennet,
both for male and female.

DR

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
St. Benedict of Nursia
Catholic Encyclopedia on CD-ROM

Founder of western monasticism, born at Nursia, c. 480; died at Monte
Cassino, 543. The only authentic life of Benedict of Nursia is that
contained in the second book of St. Gregory's "Dialogues". It is rather
a character sketch than a biography and consists, for the most part, of
a number of miraculous incidents, which, although they illustrate the
life of the saint, give little help towards a chronological account of
his career. St. Gregory's authorities for all that he relates were the
saint's own disciples, viz. Constantinus, who succeeded him as Abbot of
Monte Cassino; and Honoratus, who was Abbot of Subiaco when St. Gregory
wrote his "Dialogues".

Benedict was the son of a Roman noble of Nursia, a small town near
Spoleto, and a tradition, which St. Bede accepts, makes him a twin with
his sister ***Scholastica***.

Tony Hoskins

Re: Scolastica

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 28 jan 2006 01:14:38

St. Benedict of Nursia
Catholic Encyclopedia on CD-ROM

Founder of western monasticism, born at Nursia, c. 480; died at Monte
Cassino, 543. The only authentic life of Benedict of Nursia is that
contained in the second book of St. Gregory's "Dialogues". It is rather
a character sketch than a biography and consists, for the most part, of
a number of miraculous incidents, which, although they illustrate the
life of the saint, give little help towards a chronological account of
his career. St. Gregory's authorities for all that he relates were the
saint's own disciples, viz. Constantinus, who succeeded him as Abbot of
Monte Cassino; and Honoratus, who was Abbot of Subiaco when St. Gregory
wrote his "Dialogues".

Benedict was the son of a Roman noble of Nursia, a small town near
Spoleto, and a tradition, which St. Bede accepts, makes him a twin with
his sister ***Scholastica***.

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Scolastica

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 28 jan 2006 01:54:20

Tony Hoskins wrote:
"Despite the origin of one as a derivative of the other, Benedict and
Bennet have become different names, since both are in current use in
the
English-speaking world, and they would not be considered
interchangeable
in most contexts. If you request eggs Bennet at a restaurant, you
will go hungry."

Perhaps germane: as Benedict is to Bennet, so is Augustine to Austin.


Curious you should use that example - a fried just asked me yesterday if
the Augustine/Austin equivalence reported in Baby Name books is
authentic. What is the earliest occurance of Austin? I recall a late
13th century Adam Austin, progenitor of the Irelands.

taf

Tony Hoskins

Re: Scolastica - actually re: "Henrietta Maria", et var.

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 28 jan 2006 02:00:02

"it could have been Marie Henriette?"

But, Leo, I believe I can find a source wherein she is indeed signed as
Marie Henriette. And, if memory serves, I also believe I've seen her
referred to both as "Marie Henriette" *and* "Henriette Marie" in the
same document. I will try to find this.

I might also mention in that certain German royal and princely families
with which I am familiar I have seen some (to our minds, perhaps)
surprising looseness and variety with reference to the ordering of
multiple Christian names.

Regards,

Tony





Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: Ua Tuathail (O'Toole)

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jan 2006 02:09:02

Dear John Ravilious and other listers,
I was curious as to
how closely Maelcorce ingen Dunlaing , wife of Prince Olaf of Dublin was
related to Gormlaith ingen Murchada, Queen of Dublin and Maelcorcre`s
grandmother-in-law. They may easier be closer in kinship , but I found one at 7th cousin 1x
removed thru a common descent from Murchad mac Bran Muit d 727, Faelan d 738
was brother to Muiredach d 760; Ruaidri / Ruadrach d 785 was 1st cousin to
Bran Archann d 795; Diarmait d 832 was 2nd c to Muiredach d 818; Muircain d 863
was 3rd c to Dunlaing d 869, Mael Morda d 917 was 4th c to Ailill d 871;
Finn d 923 was 5th c to Augaire d 917 ; Murchad d 972 was 6th c to Tuathal d 958;
Queen Gormlaith of Dublin d 1030 twice consort of an Ard Ri was 7th c to
Dunlaing d 1014, King of Laigin whose daughter Maelcorcre married Prince Olaf of
Dublin.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Tony Hoskins

Re: Scolastica

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 28 jan 2006 02:21:01

"Despite the origin of one as a derivative of the other, Benedict and
Bennet have become different names, since both are in current use in
the
English-speaking world, and they would not be considered
interchangeable
in most contexts. If you request eggs Bennet at a restaurant, you
will go hungry."

Perhaps germane: as Benedict is to Bennet, so is Augustine to Austin.

Tony Hoskins
Santa Rosa, California



Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> 01/27/06 04:15PM

In article <1138404323.665267.260840@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:

Benedict was the son of a Roman noble of Nursia...

The English form of the Latin name, Benedictus/Benedicta, is Bennet,
both for male and female.

Despite the origin of one as a derivative of the other, Benedict and
Bennet have become different names, since both are in current use in
the
English-speaking world, and they would not be considered
interchangeable
in most contexts.

If you request eggs Bennet at a restaurant, you will go hungry.

Why caricature your own position, if you hold it sincerely, with this
sort of 'correction'?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Douglas Richardson

Re: Scolastica

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 jan 2006 02:28:40

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:

< If you request eggs Bennet at a restaurant, you will go hungry."

I request my eggs over easy and they usually are quite tasty.

DR

Tony Hoskins

Re: Scolastica - "phonetic erosions"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 28 jan 2006 02:41:02

"What is the earliest occurrence of Austin?"

Now that I think of it, I also have run into numerous medieval
references to the "Austin [Augustinian] Friars".




Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Hoskins

Re: Scolastica - "phonetic erosions"

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 28 jan 2006 02:52:01

What is the earliest occurrence of Austin? "

Your example from the 13th century, Todd, is as early as I can recall
seeing. The given name Augustine being so common in the Washington
family, one often sees it spelled "Austin" in family documents.

Tony Hoskins

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Scolastica - anglice Scolace

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 28 jan 2006 08:00:12

This woman from c.1400 was English, a minor heiress, and wife of at
least two successive men in Dorchester, Dorset. Her husbands were
burgesses of the city. She certainly wasn't a nun. Given that
background, why would her father (a burgess or minor gentry) have given
her the name of St. Benedict's sister?

<<Well, saints' names were just the most common category of origin of all
names in popular use in late medieval Europe (e.g., 'John', the single
most popular man's name from the 13th century on, almost everywhere in
Europe). Scholastica is simply a rare choice from among the
constellation of saints, and I still suspect it was more frequent as a
name chosen by professed nuns than as a lay name. It is very difficult
to test this hypothesis, however--I have not seen good studies which
contrast frequencies of professed monastic names with names drawn from
the same lay populations. For your case there must have been some
personal motive for the choice (as there always is)-- perhaps a relative
also named Scholastica, or a particular tenderness for passages from the
Dialogues of Gregory the Great in which she appears. But you may never
be able to discover it.>>

Nat,

Evidence that the name wasn't uncommon among the lay population of medieval England, in all levels of society, and that the Complete Peerage list Chris quoted wasn't far wrong as to the English vernacular form of Scholastica, can be found in the modern surname Scollas. The following is Reaney and Wilson's entry for that name:

"Scollas:
Scolacia (fem) 1261-2 FFWarws; Scolacia Eustas 1327 SRSx; Eva Scolace 1249 AssWilts; Mabel Scholace 1296, Robert Scolace 1332 SRSx.
Scolace appears to be the vernacular form of Lat. Scholastica, the name of a saint who was the sister of St Benedict and the first nun of the order. It is found as a christian name in England from the late 12th century until the Reformation: Scholastica (fem) 1195 P(Yorks), 1207 Cur (Cambs), 1221 Cur (Wilts), 1316 FA (Warws)."

The three references from the 1327 Sussex Lay Subsidy Rolls are more likely to be peasants than gentles, while Cicely Howell's book on the medieval peasant society of Kibworth Harcourt in Leicestershire, Land, family, and inheritance in transition: Kibworth Harcourt, 1280-1700, contains an account of several generations of a 14th century peasant family surnamed Scolace (or something like that - I'm speaking from memory), starting with its founder, Scolace herself, living some time around 1300, I think.

If memory serves, Dave Postles' Surnames of Leicestershire and Rutland also contains a brief discussion of the name and surname.

Matt Tompkins
in Blaston, Leics - just down the road from Kibworth.

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Hereward de Segrave?

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 28 jan 2006 08:24:43

<<Who ever heard of a name like that - British folklore given name with a
French family name?

Hrewald de Segrave, born about 1115, father of Gilbert de Segrave>>


Surely Segrave is an English name, from Seagrave in Leicestershire, I should think.

Hereward may have been an Englishman who, like many others at this date, was Normanising and giving his children Norman personal names. Other examples of this phenomenon are Adam de Cockfield, tenant by knight service of the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds c1130-40, whose father and grandfather were callled Leofmaer and Wulfric, and Edward de Salisbury, sheriff of Wiltshire in the 1070s and 80s, whose son was called Walter FitzEdward

Matt Tompkins

Derek Howard

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Derek Howard » 28 jan 2006 12:34:50

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 26 Jan, bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
snip
Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military
Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White, symbolizes the moon and
denotes Purity and Obedience.

These symbolisms are not authentic, they were probably invented in post
medieval times to humour people with not much else to do. The core of
heraldry was a need to invent some graphic design that would be easily
recognisable, either on a seal to authorise a document or in a
tournament on the apparel and armour.

Just a little pedantry is perhaps in order here though off the topic of
the thread. The attribution of virtues to colours and association with
planets goes back at least to the herald Sicille in the early 15th
century whose work was recycled throughout the 15th century. Sicille
was an officer of the King of Sicily and marshal of arms of Hainault,
not a theoretician or amateur. His text quotes extensively from
biblical and classic literature and does not read as if he had just
invented them, there was probably at least a generation of such
thinking before him. In the 15th century the grant of arms to Eton
college by Henry VI in person shows that the meanings of colours were
in current and explicit use. Chivalraic thinking around tournaments
certainly included a considerable amount of such symbolism. How far
back we can trace such thinking is another matter. Shortage of data
hampers analysis of the earlier 13-14th centuries.

Derek Howard

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Scolastica - anglice Scolace

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 28 jan 2006 14:40:27

In article
<93EC899E92A38749B4B93AC4319D25B60A1C04E5@Saffron.cfs.le.ac.uk>,
mllt1@leicester.ac.uk ("Tompkins, M.L.") wrote:

This woman from c.1400 was English, a minor heiress, and wife of at
least two successive men in Dorchester, Dorset. Her husbands were
burgesses of the city. She certainly wasn't a nun. Given that
background, why would her father (a burgess or minor gentry) have given
her the name of St. Benedict's sister?

Well, saints' names were just the most common category of origin of all
names in popular use in late medieval Europe (e.g., 'John', the single
most popular man's name from the 13th century on, almost everywhere in
Europe). Scholastica is simply a rare choice from among the
constellation of saints, and I still suspect it was more frequent as a
name chosen by professed nuns than as a lay name. It is very difficult
to test this hypothesis, however--I have not seen good studies which
contrast frequencies of professed monastic names with names drawn from
the same lay populations. For your case there must have been some
personal motive for the choice (as there always is)-- perhaps a relative
also named Scholastica, or a particular tenderness for passages from the
Dialogues of Gregory the Great in which she appears. But you may never
be able to discover it.

Nat,

Evidence that the name wasn't uncommon among the lay population of medieval
England, in all levels of society, and that the Complete Peerage list Chris
quoted wasn't far wrong as to the English vernacular form of Scholastica, can
be found in the modern surname Scollas. The following is Reaney and Wilson's
entry for that name:

"Scollas:
Scolacia (fem) 1261-2 FFWarws; Scolacia Eustas 1327 SRSx; Eva Scolace 1249
AssWilts; Mabel Scholace 1296, Robert Scolace 1332 SRSx.
Scolace appears to be the vernacular form of Lat. Scholastica, the name of a
saint who was the sister of St Benedict and the first nun of the order. It
is found as a christian name in England from the late 12th century until the
Reformation: Scholastica (fem) 1195 P(Yorks), 1207 Cur (Cambs), 1221 Cur
(Wilts), 1316 FA (Warws)."

The three references from the 1327 Sussex Lay Subsidy Rolls are more likely
to be peasants than gentles, while Cicely Howell's book on the medieval
peasant society of Kibworth Harcourt in Leicestershire, Land, family, and
inheritance in transition: Kibworth Harcourt, 1280-1700, contains an account
of several generations of a 14th century peasant family surnamed Scolace (or
something like that - I'm speaking from memory), starting with its founder,
Scolace herself, living some time around 1300, I think.

If memory serves, Dave Postles' Surnames of Leicestershire and Rutland also
contains a brief discussion of the name and surname.

Matt,

Thanks for this. 'Scollas' and 'Scolace' sound better than the CP
list's 'Scolast'. Apparently it's not as rare as I thought, but still
uncommon; I hadn't thought to look it up as a surname. As I said
before, there's no good systematic study of monastic professed names in
any specific place in medieval western Europe, but given this name's
pedigree I would still guess that it was may have been more used within
the cloister than without.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 28 jan 2006 15:22:03

In message of 28 Jan, "Derek Howard" <dhoward@skynet.be> wrote:

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 26 Jan, bobturcott@msn.com ("Bob Turcott") wrote:
snip
Gules or red, symbolizes the planet mars and denotes Military
Fortitude, Valour, joy and Honor.Argent or White, symbolizes the moon and
denotes Purity and Obedience.

These symbolisms are not authentic, they were probably invented in post
medieval times to humour people with not much else to do. The core of
heraldry was a need to invent some graphic design that would be easily
recognisable, either on a seal to authorise a document or in a
tournament on the apparel and armour.

Just a little pedantry is perhaps in order here though off the topic of
the thread. The attribution of virtues to colours and association with
planets goes back at least to the herald Sicille in the early 15th
century whose work was recycled throughout the 15th century. Sicille
was an officer of the King of Sicily and marshal of arms of Hainault,
not a theoretician or amateur. His text quotes extensively from
biblical and classic literature and does not read as if he had just
invented them, there was probably at least a generation of such
thinking before him. In the 15th century the grant of arms to Eton
college by Henry VI in person shows that the meanings of colours were
in current and explicit use. Chivalraic thinking around tournaments
certainly included a considerable amount of such symbolism. How far
back we can trace such thinking is another matter. Shortage of data
hampers analysis of the earlier 13-14th centuries.

Interesting. I was merely summarising a paragraph in the rec.heraldry
FAQ:

"At various times in the history of heraldry -- mostly between the
16th and early 19th centuries, and mostly in England -- various
authors tried to create systems of meaning for every charge and
tincture in arms. Some of them went so far as to claim that their
system had _always_ been in use, and therefore that the symbolism of
ancient arms could be deduced from their charts. It was all bunk.
Some heralds probably did design arms according to one or another of
these systems -- which aren't consistent, by the way -- but we have
no way of know, in general, when this was done."

Personally I agree with the statement that is was all bunk, though I
would prefer 'pretentious rubbish'. Sounds like the FAQ needs updating.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Chris Phillips

Re: Scolastica - anglice Scolace

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 28 jan 2006 15:23:00

Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
Thanks for this. 'Scollas' and 'Scolace' sound better than the CP
list's 'Scolast'.


Judging from the PCC references posted by Leo, both varieties were in use in
the 16th and 17th centuries:

<<
Will of Dame Scolast Esterfelde, Widow of Bristol, Gloucestershire 18
December 1518 PROB 11/19
Will of Schollis or Scollis Leach, Widow of Winton, Hampshire 20 January
1654 PROB 11/240

Chris Phillips

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Scolastica - anglice Scolace

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 28 jan 2006 15:41:01

The three references from the 1327 Sussex Lay Subsidy Rolls are more
likely to be peasants than gentles, while Cicely Howell's book on the
medieval peasant society of Kibworth Harcourt in Leicestershire, Land,

family, and inheritance in transition: Kibworth Harcourt, 1280-1700,
contains an account of several generations of a 14th century peasant
family surnamed Scolace (or something like that - I'm speaking from
memory), starting with its founder, Scolace herself, living some time
around 1300, I think.

If memory serves, Dave Postles' Surnames of Leicestershire and Rutland

also contains a brief discussion of the name and surname.


It turns out my memory got it back to front: Cicely Howell's book
mentions the Scolas family family just once and then only briefly, but
it is Dave Postles' book which has all the details. The widow Scolasse
was a villein living in the late 13C and was variously named in the
records of the manor of Kibworth Harcourt as Scolastica vidua, Scolacia,
Scolasse, Scolac' vidua, Scholace le vidiwe and Scolasse vidua. She
never had a by-name, but her sons were variously surnamed filius
Scolastice, filius Scolace, filius Scolasse and just plain Scolace (no
filius). The family's surname eventually stabilised as Scolace or
Scolas.

Matt

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Knightly class

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 28 jan 2006 16:02:02

Some interesting points there, Douglas - thank you.

It is clear that one cannot expect to discover the precise status and
full landholdings of every and any pre-1200 individual one might wish to
investigate, but that doesn't prevent historians being able to draw
conclusions, even if only tentative ones, about the knightly class as a
whole from those occasional individuals for whom some accident of record
keeping makes fuller evidence available.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson
Sent: 27 January 2006 19:49
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Knightly class

Dear Matt ~

Regarding the pre-1200 time period, I think it's virtually impossible to
arrive any firm conclusions at all about the "knightly class" in England
before 1200, especially since the records often fail to indicate who was
a knight and who wasn't. At best, the surviving evidence only gives us
a glimpse of what was taking place in society at that time regarding
knighthood. This is true for both knighthood and for land ownership.
After 1200, records of land ownership records get much better, and men
are acknowledged with regularity as knights.

As we sail in the 1400's, however, it's increasingly more common for
trustees to hold lands for land owners and for men to lease their
estates to tenants on long term leases. It was also common for people
to undervalue the income of their estates when asked to provide that
information. Likewise, surviving widows and widowers could tie up
family estates for 30 or more years, such as Hubert de Burgh did with
his wife, Beatrice de Warenne's estates. Moreover, knighted men often
derved income from their wives who had dower from a previous marriage,
which marriages were sometimes contracted in childhood. It also became
common for a man to settle a manor on his younger son for the term of
his life, rather than make an outright gift to the son. Also, if a
daughter had a maritagium, and if she had no issue or if her issue
failed, her maritagium usually reverted back to her father's heir. As
such, one must study the land holdings of families over several
generations and over several counties to get the big picture of who
owned what and when.

Not surprisingly, I often find properties going in and out of records
for individual families, with no obvous explanation. A good example is
Upwell and Outwell, Norfolk, which properties are known to have been
part of the Wormegay inheritance of Beatrice de Warenne, who died in
1214. According to VCH Cambridge, these properties don't register in
the records as being held by her Bardolf heirs until 1304.

Suffice to say, we can derive general ideas about knighthood and
associated land tenure in the medieval time period in England, but they
must always be qualified by the clear difficulty in determining who was
and wasn't a knight and also by what estates they owned at any specific
time period. One able historian who has attempted to tackle this
complex question is Roskell, whose biographies of members of Parliament
often touch on the crazy quilt pattern of land ownership that affected a
given individual's life.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

kurrild@politik.dk

Re: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av kurrild@politik.dk » 28 jan 2006 20:08:04

I do not know if I quite count as a s.g.m. regular anymore--I stopped
posting regularly some years ago, but still read it weekly or so.
Anyway, here we go, even if they are the less interesting parts of my
ancestry:

Y/patrilinear (9 generations): Jens Christensen i Gaarden; born 1660,
died no earlier than 1718, a farmer at the island of Øland, Northern
Jutland in Denmark. He was most likely the son of a farmer at the same
place Christen Jensen (mentioned 1660-1670).

mt/matrilinear (8 generations): Kirsten Pedersdatter; born ca. 1730,
died no earlier than 1787, from the village of Jordløse on the island
of Funen, Denmark.

My seven months old daughter, however, has a considerably more
interesting ancestry through her lovely mother:

Y/patrilinear (11 generations from my wife): James Collett, mentioned
1653/1656, merchant in London; his ancestry is currently not proven,
but _may_ go back another nine generations to Robert Colet (-1470),
owner of the Hale (Wendover Burrow in Bucks.) and father of Sir Henry
Colet (ca. 1435-1505), Lord Mayor of London, and through him
grandfather of the theologian John Colet (1466-1519), Dean of St.
Pauls.

mt/matrilinear (20 generations from my wife): Catharina Henningsdotter
von Königsmark, born ca. 1380 in Sweden. Her mother's first name is
not known, but she was a daughter of Bengt Karlsson of the Swedish
uradel family named Örnfot, which may be counted as one more
generation ... That would give our daughter 22 generations of strict
matrilinear ancestry, which I guess is somewhat rare.

XY (14 generations from my wife): Michel Funtin/Fontain/van Thien/von
Thien, born ca. 1545, died ca. 1600, merchant and city councillor,
Olso, Norway.

Best wishes,

Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
OK, I guess I'll play too:

Y: John Baldwin, of Howden in the parish of Gisburn, Yorkshire, in
1684, later of Wheatley, in Pendle Forest, Lancashire, d. 1729, m.
Bridget ____ (parents of the Quaker immigrant John Baldwin of
Lancashire and Bucks co., Pennsylvania, d. 1751, m. (2) Ann Scott).

mt: Dorothy Consitt, b. Yorkshire, d. Warren co., Iowa, 1862, m. Henry
Cartwright. As I have a plausible candidate for her mother (Rebecca
Rhodes, daughter of Dorothy Huntriss, daughter of Mary Goodill), this
would be a good place to do some DNA research of my own, if I could
only find a matrilineal descendant of Mary Goodill.

XY: John Baird, d. 1797/8, Abbeville co., SC (son of Adam Baird, whose
wife's name is unknown). My paternal grandfather's XY line (which is
still around in the person of a young great-great-grandson) goes back
(through the Quaker immigrant George Maris of Worcestershire and
Chester co., Pennsylvania) 14 generations to a William Wych living in
the late 1400's.

Stewart Baldwin

Gjest

Re: Ancestry of Eva of Leinster: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 jan 2006 15:12:19

Michael wrote: "[please don't think my ancestry is all on the wrong
side of the blanket though!] "

Thank you for a little light relief! Seriously, I am glad that you and
others explained the XY with illustrations. I was wondering what it
was.

Shinjinee

W David Samuelsen

Re: who's real mother of Aymer"Taillefer", Comte d'Angouleme

Legg inn av W David Samuelsen » 29 jan 2006 19:44:02

<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-01/1138544596>

Thank you for clearing this up.

W. David Samuelsen

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 30 jan 2006 11:12:01

This states my feelings exactly.

Matt Tompkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Brooks [mailto:alan.brooks@iinet.net.au]
Sent: 30 January 2006 06:10
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Leo and Douglas whatever happened to dignity and respect?

I am fairly new to this Newsgroup.
I am impressed by the depth of knowledge, both collective and
individual, that passes everyday.
I also understand that constructive debate and criticism are essential
to the collective learning experience that is at the heart of the
Newsgroup.
But isn't it time that both Leo van der Pas and Douglas Richardson
stopped their squabbling. Global communications only remain workable if
we treat each other with dignity and respect. I see this declining in
the recent debates about knight and knightly classes and the proper
forms of the name of the wife of Charles I.
At the end of the day all that is being adduced in these debates is
evidence, not proof. Evidence will change over time, is subject to
re-evaluation and may be countered by stronger evidence.
None of this seems to warrant Leo and Douglas duelling with e-mails at
10,000 kilometers in front of the rest of us. Please reserve invective
for private communications and leave the rest of us out.
The really sad thing to me is you both have so much to contribute to
constructive discussions and offer really helpful insights into
genealogical information but it is becoming increasingly hard to sort
the insights from the invective.
Alan Brooks

Chris Phillips

Re: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 30 jan 2006 12:45:28

I'd like to echo this. We had quite a reasonable period of truce a while
back. Could we not try to have another?

Chris Phillips

PS In answer to (I presume) Peter Stewart, these attacks on anyone you
perceive as insufficiently hostile to Douglas Richardson really are
unattractive. Please have the courtesy to let us make up our own minds what
we post here. Particularly if you aren't even a subscriber to the
group/list.

Leo van de Pas

Re: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 jan 2006 12:58:01

What or who broke the truce? I used the word _pedantic_ and that sparked
it all off. You used the same word in your previous message.

I tried to help him. Queen Henrietta Maria had addressed Edward Somerset as
cousin,
Richardson spelled out the link between the king and Somerset. I made the
insulting error of saying "I do not know how Richardson counts, but the
Queen has an almost the same degree of relationship" How does Richardson
respond? "I count one, two, three" I should have asked him whether he was
counting fingers, toes or nuts!!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded


I'd like to echo this. We had quite a reasonable period of truce a while
back. Could we not try to have another?

Chris Phillips

PS In answer to (I presume) Peter Stewart, these attacks on anyone you
perceive as insufficiently hostile to Douglas Richardson really are
unattractive. Please have the courtesy to let us make up our own minds
what
we post here. Particularly if you aren't even a subscriber to the
group/list.




Chris Phillips

Re: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 30 jan 2006 13:06:11

Leo van de Pas wrote:
What or who broke the truce? I used the word _pedantic_ and that sparked
it all off. You used the same word in your previous message.


I wasn't trying to allot blame for breaking the truce (though I can already
hear someone saying "You should have been!"), I was just saying it would be
nice if it could be reinstated.

And I wonder if Rootsweb would start another list, GEN-NOMENCLATURE, for
those whose tastes lie in that direction. (To be fair, I think it can be
useful and interesting to discuss the forms of names in different languages
and at different times, but once people start telling others they should or
shouldn't use a particular form, it gets ridiculous.)

Chris Phillips

Ginny Wagner

Rounds French Calendar

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 30 jan 2006 16:59:02

Round makes it abundantly clear that he drew from the work
of the Royal Commission of 1833 and 1834

In French Calendar of Charters, Round states in his Preface:

"Among them, indeed, is an archbishop "Gingolor," whose name
may sound suspicious; but he is no other than "Junkeneus,"
who is found in charters as "archbishop" of Dol so late as
1032, and whose successor does not occur before 1040. [fn
.... Gallia Christiana XIV. 1045]"

From the preface I also would mention that the dating of the
charters was often done by reviewing who and where the
signatories were.

For instance:

"The name of Robert de Curci proves that 1157 is the latest
possible date, while, if R[obert] de Ver were a witness, his
name would be decisive proof that the charter was one of
Henry I. about the close of his reign."

This follows on his statement that he differed as to dates
of some documents not only from the French scholars in
Diplomatique, the skilled officials of Ecole des Chartes,
and the greatest authorities in France, showing both their
dates and the ones he applied using the criteria that the
signatory must have not only been alive, but must have been
present in order to sign.


Example: "The Monasticon charter cannot be earlier than
1121, being witnessed by queen Adeliza, but as it was
granted when the first abbot was blessed by the bishop of
St. Davids, it not improbably belongs to the king's visit to
Wales in that year, [fn ... Sym. Dun. II, 263-4] in which
case we could say that he was in the Pembroke district,
September 11, 1121.

"It has been suggested that the original founder of the
abbey's Welsh house was the father of Robert fitz Martin.
[fn ... Monasticon and Dugdale's Baronage] Of this father
nothing is really known. The editor would suggest that his
name was not "Martin de Tours," as is always states, but
that we may detect him in "Martinus de Walis," the first
witness to the foundation charter of Totness Priory. [fn ...
MS. lat. 5446, fo. 269] This would carry back to a very
early date his settlement in Wales."


Do the brackets indicate editor's notes or additions?

Ginny Wagner

Douglas Richardson

Suggestion to Pas and Richardson

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 30 jan 2006 21:31:40

May I suggest to Pas and Richardson that they get back to the original
subject of the thread: Lady Margaret Kerdeston? We've had enough
foofaraw about Queen Mary I think.

DR

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
What or who broke the truce? I used the word _pedantic_ and that sparked
it all off. You used the same word in your previous message.

I tried to help him. Queen Henrietta Maria had addressed Edward Somerset as
cousin,
Richardson spelled out the link between the king and Somerset. I made the
insulting error of saying "I do not know how Richardson counts, but the
Queen has an almost the same degree of relationship" How does Richardson
respond? "I count one, two, three" I should have asked him whether he was
counting fingers, toes or nuts!!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded


I'd like to echo this. We had quite a reasonable period of truce a while
back. Could we not try to have another?

Chris Phillips

PS In answer to (I presume) Peter Stewart, these attacks on anyone you
perceive as insufficiently hostile to Douglas Richardson really are
unattractive. Please have the courtesy to let us make up our own minds
what
we post here. Particularly if you aren't even a subscriber to the
group/list.




Leo van de Pas

Re: Suggestion to Pas and Richardson

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 30 jan 2006 22:47:04

Even your memory is selective......the foofaraw you started when I gave you
the information that David Williamson had a reference to "Queen Mary" and
when I tried to help you when you seemed to think that the link between this
Queen and Edward Somerset was via the Queen's husband and I told you that
the Queen was just one degree further (according to the modern first cousin
once removed system) than her husband and not knowing which counting system
you used you discarded my addition to your knowledge and zeroed in on the "I
don't know how Richardson counts" and you gave that illuminating reply " I
count, one, two, three...."

The original subject was not Lady Margaret Kerdeston but your "find" that
the Queen had called Edward Somerset and therefor had to be related to the
king..........

Honesty goes a _long_ way, but apparently a long way away from you.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 7:31 AM
Subject: Suggestion to Pas and Richardson


May I suggest to Pas and Richardson that they get back to the original
subject of the thread: Lady Margaret Kerdeston? We've had enough
foofaraw about Queen Mary I think.

DR

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
What or who broke the truce? I used the word _pedantic_ and that
sparked
it all off. You used the same word in your previous message.

I tried to help him. Queen Henrietta Maria had addressed Edward Somerset
as
cousin,
Richardson spelled out the link between the king and Somerset. I made the
insulting error of saying "I do not know how Richardson counts, but the
Queen has an almost the same degree of relationship" How does Richardson
respond? "I count one, two, three" I should have asked him whether he
was
counting fingers, toes or nuts!!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded


I'd like to echo this. We had quite a reasonable period of truce a
while
back. Could we not try to have another?

Chris Phillips

PS In answer to (I presume) Peter Stewart, these attacks on anyone you
perceive as insufficiently hostile to Douglas Richardson really are
unattractive. Please have the courtesy to let us make up our own minds
what
we post here. Particularly if you aren't even a subscriber to the
group/list.






Kevin Bradford

Re: Fw: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded

Legg inn av Kevin Bradford » 31 jan 2006 00:18:02

-----Original Message-----
From: CED <leesmyth@cox.net
Sent: Jan 30, 2006 5:10 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded


chevrondazur@paris.com wrote:
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
What "people" are called in different countries may be interesting, but
Queen Henrietta Maria of England "is not people"........Nor is Charlemagne,
William the Conqueror, Alfred the Great, and so on.


Names given to famous individuals vary from country to country. The
French call Leonardo da Vinci Léonard de Vinci but the English stick
to his Italian name. The English say to Joan of Arc but Emperor
Wilhelm whereas the French say l'empereur Guillaume. Are there any
reliable rules ?

Dear Chevron:

Oh dear! No more rules! Richardson is surely to make a rule for all
of us to use. (He has one for most situations.)

CED

Indeed so, CED. Pedantic minds focus on such things. Is there a universal spelling for "pedantic"? <G


http://www.bartleby.com/61/43/P0144300.html

Best,

KB

Kevin Bradford

Re: Worst Briton Ever - the nation votes

Legg inn av Kevin Bradford » 31 jan 2006 02:55:03

I find three forebears on that list (King John of course, Richard Rich, and de Spencer the Younger). If murder is the main consideration, as it seems, I can think of several others that should have at least made this list, if not honorable mention. Henry VIII's carnal lust began the Reformation.

KB

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Cairns <news@cairnsfamily.org
Sent: Jan 30, 2006 8:21 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Worst Briton Ever - the nation votes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4663280.stm

Yes, alright. Jack the Ripper is the worst ever, but where did some of the
mediaeval persons get any popular votes?

Ian


Gjest

Re: Browne, Brown or just whitewash?

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 jan 2006 08:44:02

In a message dated 1/30/06 9:33:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

<< Sir Anthony Brown (1500-1548)=Alys Gage
Thomas Brown =
Thomas Brown =
John Brown b. 1584 = Dorothy Beauchamp
James Brown, Mary Brown, John Brown b. 1627 >>

This line is doubtful. Sir Anthony Browne married the daughter of the Earl
of Kildare, and Anthony's daughter Mabel married the son of this same Earl
about 10 years later. (So she was marrying her step-uncle).

Another one of Anthony's children became Viscount Montagu and married first a
dau of the Earl of Susex and second a dau of Lord Dacre and granddaughter of
the Earl of Shrewsbury

Another daughter married the son of the Marquess of Dorset and by him had the
1st Baron Grey of Groby.

There is no reason, to my mind, why there would be an obscure son Thomas who
doesn't even warrant a birthyear :)
Surely a family thrust this far up into the hierarchy doesn't have obscure
members.

Anthony himself was grandson of the Marquess of Montagu

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Browne, Brown or just whitewash?

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 jan 2006 11:25:02

I did NOT write the following, but was quoting a previous message. Once
again, please be more careful how you respond. Furthermore I gave details of a
message in the archives which showed that this filtration was doubtful.

Adrian

In a message dated 1/30/06 9:33:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

<< Sir Anthony Brown (1500-1548)=Alys Gage
Thomas Brown =
Thomas Brown =
John Brown b. 1584 = Dorothy Beauchamp
James Brown, Mary Brown, John Brown b. 1627 >>


Will Johnson wrote
This line is doubtful. Sir Anthony Browne married the daughter of the Earl

of Kildare, and Anthony's daughter Mabel married the son of this same Earl
about 10 years later. (So she was marrying her step-uncle).

Another one of Anthony's children became Viscount Montagu and married first
a
dau of the Earl of Susex and second a dau of Lord Dacre and granddaughter of
the Earl of Shrewsbury

Another daughter married the son of the Marquess of Dorset and by him had
the
1st Baron Grey of Groby.

There is no reason, to my mind, why there would be an obscure son Thomas who
doesn't even warrant a birthyear :)
Surely a family thrust this far up into the hierarchy doesn't have obscure
members.

Anthony himself was grandson of the Marquess of Montagu

Will Johnson
<<<<

Tony Hoskins

RE: Leo and Douglas - dignity and respect? - seconded

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 31 jan 2006 18:05:02

"This states my feelings exactly."

Ditto.



Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

norenxaq

Re: Most recent common ancestors

Legg inn av norenxaq » 31 jan 2006 22:26:01

What is the significance of this mender of old shoes? His mother was a Jane
Stafford and within about 21 generations she has at least 433 lines of
descent from William the Conqueror and I would not like to guess how many to
Charlemagne. This Jane Stafford also is a descendant of Llwylyn the Great
Prince of Wales, the Arpad Kings of Hungary, and descends at least in 29
lines from Isaac II Angelos, Emperor of Byzantium and is also a 15th cousin
once removed of the Moghul Emperor Shah Jahan, the reputed builder of the
Taj Mahal.


reputed?

it is well established that Shah Jehan authorised the construction of the Taj
Mahal as a mausoleum for his wife

Gjest

re: Wentworth ancestry: William de Wynteworth Wodehouses

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 jan 2006 22:28:02

Tuesday, 31 January, 2006



Dear MichaelAnne, Mike, et al.,

I have noted two additional instances where the grant by William,
son of William de Wentworth Wodhouses, was either published or
otherwise referenced or described:

1. The manuscripts of Mrs. Wentworth of Woolley Park were
Published in 1903 by the Historical Manuscripts
Commission [1]. The version printed there, rendered in
then-current English, is shown as being dated 22 November
1313 ["7 Edward II, Thursday after the feast of St.
Edmund the King."]. This is marked as a "Copy", to which
a footnote states,

" These copies and that of the deed of Henry VIII.,
below, appear to have been made by one R. G. for
Michael Wentworth, early in the 17th century."

Immediately prior to this text, the following was also
printed:

" [1303,] 31 Edward I., October 20. - Letters patents
granting permission to William de Wynteworthe
Wodehus to enclose a part of the King's highway,
near to his mansion, provided he replaces it by
a like road, and upon payment of a fine into the
treasury. Copy. "


2. Rev. Hunter referenced both of the above in some detail in his
fine work on South Yorkshire [2], stating (concerning these
and a few others I am presently reviewing) that

" These are the documents which remain concerning those who
must be regarded as the patriarchs of the family of
Wentworth. The descendants of the two Williams I give
upon the authority, principally, of Gascoign and the
heralds, till we arrive at the period when we have the
assistance of the Inquisitions, and the monuments. "


I have not noted anything in Hunter's South Yorkshire (as yet)
that indicates that he had found additional evidence concerning the
alleged Wentworth marriages with the daughter of Sir Peter de
Rotherfield, William de Pollington or others. I will advise if in
fact such evidence is noted (although my time constraints will slow
this process).

I hope this is useful in the pursuit of whence the worthy
Wentworths went (or came from, anyway).

Cheers,

John





NOTES

[1] Historical Manuscripts Commission, Reports on Manuscripts in
Various Collections (London: Printed for His Majesty's
Stationery Office by Mackie & Co. LD., 1903), II:367.

[2] Rev. Joseph Hunter, South Yorkshire: the History and Topography of
the Deanery of Doncaster, in the Diocese and County of York
(London: Printed for the Author, by J. B. Nichols and Son, 1831),
II:82.

Leo van de Pas

Re: Most recent common ancestors

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 31 jan 2006 22:37:02

There are claims on the Iternet that he commandeered the building for his
own purpose.
I have had the fortune to see it and I think it is just breathtaking.
Definitely one of the wonders of the world.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <norenxaq@san.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: Most recent common ancestors


What is the significance of this mender of old shoes? His mother was a
Jane
Stafford and within about 21 generations she has at least 433 lines of
descent from William the Conqueror and I would not like to guess how many
to
Charlemagne. This Jane Stafford also is a descendant of Llwylyn the Great
Prince of Wales, the Arpad Kings of Hungary, and descends at least in 29
lines from Isaac II Angelos, Emperor of Byzantium and is also a 15th
cousin
once removed of the Moghul Emperor Shah Jahan, the reputed builder of the
Taj Mahal.


reputed?

it is well established that Shah Jehan authorised the construction of the
Taj
Mahal as a mausoleum for his wife


norenxaq

Re: Most recent common ancestors

Legg inn av norenxaq » 31 jan 2006 22:55:01

Leo van de Pas wrote:

There are claims on the Iternet that he commandeered the building for his
own purpose.

unless there is documented evidence that can be independently verified
off-line, one should be leery of these claims

I have had the fortune to see it and I think it is just breathtaking.
Definitely one of the wonders of the world.
Leo


indeed

----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq" <norenxaq@san.rr.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: Most recent common ancestors


What is the significance of this mender of old shoes? His mother was a
Jane
Stafford and within about 21 generations she has at least 433 lines of
descent from William the Conqueror and I would not like to guess how many
to
Charlemagne. This Jane Stafford also is a descendant of Llwylyn the Great
Prince of Wales, the Arpad Kings of Hungary, and descends at least in 29
lines from Isaac II Angelos, Emperor of Byzantium and is also a 15th
cousin
once removed of the Moghul Emperor Shah Jahan, the reputed builder of the
Taj Mahal.


reputed?

it is well established that Shah Jehan authorised the construction of the
Taj
Mahal as a mausoleum for his wife


Frank

"ab" and "ap"

Legg inn av Frank » 01 feb 2006 00:10:02

One of my ancestors was Ralph Ap Eynon. How does that fit in with your
theories on vowels and consonants. Maybe we need help from a Welsh speaker,
and I'm not one. Regards, Frank Baynham

R. Battle

Re: "ab" and "ap"

Legg inn av R. Battle » 01 feb 2006 00:37:10

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Frank wrote:

One of my ancestors was Ralph Ap Eynon. How does that fit in with your
theories on vowels and consonants. Maybe we need help from a Welsh speaker,
and I'm not one. Regards, Frank Baynham

The convention for many is to use "ap" exclusively when writing Welsh
names, either through ignorance or just for convenience's sake. I don't
know where you originally saw the name you mention above, but chances are
good that that one of those is the case. To be perfectly correct and to
reflect actual pronunciation you should use "ab" there, but it's not as
if people won't know what you mean either way.

-Robert Battle

Gjest

Re: Difference between ab and ap

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2006 02:56:01

In a message dated 1/31/06 12:49:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, wood_ce@msn.com
writes:

<< Are there any other letters besides "h" which in English is a vowel and
would use "ab" but in Welsh is a consonant and would use "ap"? >>

It's not that it *is* a vowel.
It's that it's *sound* is vowel-like sometimes.
The *h* in "hour" is indistinguishable from "our" that is, it's silent.
However the "h" in "house" is quite distinct.

That is why it is correct to say "AN hour" and correct to say "A house"
But incorrect reversed. That is "A hour" or "AN house" are both incorrect.

When "h" is silent, you use "An", treating it, in this case, like a vowel.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: gateway argh!

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2006 17:12:01

In a message dated 2/1/2006 4:21:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
don.stone@verizon.net writes:

RootsWeb makes a big effort to gate all messages, and generally when there
are problems with the gateway, the ungated messages are queued and
eventually gated. However, sometimes a few messages are not saved or are
not saved long enough and thus are not gated


Yes for example... taking two weeks.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: "ab" and "ap"

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2006 17:51:17

R. Battle wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Frank wrote:

One of my ancestors was Ralph Ap Eynon. How does that fit in with your
theories on vowels and consonants. Maybe we need help from a Welsh speaker,
and I'm not one. Regards, Frank Baynham

The convention for many is to use "ap" exclusively when writing Welsh
names, either through ignorance or just for convenience's sake. I don't
know where you originally saw the name you mention above, but chances are
good that that one of those is the case. To be perfectly correct and to
reflect actual pronunciation you should use "ab" there, but it's not as
if people won't know what you mean either way.

-Robert Battle

I'd second that. Frank, it's worth pointing out that your name is
Baynham, not Paynham! You are quite right that English pedigrees of the
Baynhams do say 'ap Eynon' (no capital A, BTW), but in Welsh it would
be 'ab Einion'. Welsh is a wonderfully logical language; and these
aren't theories- mine or otherwise. Bear in mind that the family were
outside Wales and may not have been speaking the language themselves
after a while.

Matthew

Gjest

Re: Posting an article or image

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2006 17:55:02

In a message dated 2/1/2006 8:49:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cjrees@gmail.com writes:

I am trying to post a Word article I have been sent about my Brown
family question. I tried it as an email attachment and it bounced. Its
just a bit too long to just cut and paste into the forum. How do I do
it? Google help doesn't help and the only archive I can find is dated
1997.


If it's too large to cut and paste then don't try to attach it either. No
one will read it.
Instead give us a summary in a couple paragraphs. Then interested persons
will ask you questions about it.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Knightly class (was Henrietta Maria etc)

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2006 18:49:01

In a message dated 2/1/2006 9:34:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mllt1@leicester.ac.uk writes:

(ii) it wasn't confined to just
those who were knights, but was the class from which knights came,


This definition is circular. The "class from which knights came" merely
re-interprets each created knight as being a member of this class, which is a
useless definition.

To say that a knight held a manor, ignores those persons who were landless,
created knights and then *given* a manor in order to have a manor.

Knights could come from any economic layer of society. A knight was a
title, they did not come *from* a class. Rather the creating of a knight *put*
him into a class you might say.

They *came* from all classes. But once you were a knight, provided you
weren't royal or a baron or an earl or a viscount or..... then you could say you
were now in the knightly class.

That is, you weren't necessarily in the knightly class beforehand. But,
provided you could not be classified in any OTHER class afterward, you were now
*in* the knightly class by virtue of having been knighted.

Will Johnson

Don Stone

Re: gateway argh!

Legg inn av Don Stone » 01 feb 2006 20:56:45

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/1/2006 4:21:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
don.stone@verizon.net writes:

RootsWeb makes a big effort to gate all messages, and generally when there
are problems with the gateway, the ungated messages are queued and
eventually gated. However, sometimes a few messages are not saved or are
not saved long enough and thus are not gated


Yes for example... taking two weeks.
Will Johnson


The problem of AOL not delivering email from the new RootsWeb list servers
has nothing to do with gating, as you probably know.

On the AOL issue, it now looks hopeful that AOL has corrected things:

Reported yesterday at http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com/: "RootsWeb is still
queuing email bound for AOL users and will forward it after AOL allows mail
through. Currently there looks to be about 100 thousand messages to deliver."

Reported later yesterday: "RootsWeb is seeing [AOL] mail being delivered
without hindrance. This is an excellent sign, and we hope that it will
continue."

-- Don Stone

Frank

RE: "ab" and "ap"

Legg inn av Frank » 02 feb 2006 00:41:02

Many thanks for the advice on ap versus ab. It had occurred to me that
perhaps it was originally ab as this was later transposed to Baynham, not
Paynham.

Yes my family was living in England, but only just. This part of the country
has changed between English and/or Welsh on numerous occasions although it
is still the case that Monmouth is the most English of Welsh towns.

Clearwell, where Ralph Ap Eynon (ab Einion) was born in 1306 is only a
couple of miles from the current Welsh border.

They may not have been speaking Welsh but could equally have been speaking
French as this was also a Norman stronghold.

Regards,

Frank Baynham

-----Original Message-----
From: mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk [mailto:mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 01 February 2006 16:51
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: "ab" and "ap"

R. Battle wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Frank wrote:

One of my ancestors was Ralph Ap Eynon. How does that fit in with your
theories on vowels and consonants. Maybe we need help from a Welsh
speaker,
and I'm not one. Regards, Frank Baynham

The convention for many is to use "ap" exclusively when writing Welsh
names, either through ignorance or just for convenience's sake. I don't
know where you originally saw the name you mention above, but chances are
good that that one of those is the case. To be perfectly correct and to
reflect actual pronunciation you should use "ab" there, but it's not as
if people won't know what you mean either way.

-Robert Battle

I'd second that. Frank, it's worth pointing out that your name is
Baynham, not Paynham! You are quite right that English pedigrees of the
Baynhams do say 'ap Eynon' (no capital A, BTW), but in Welsh it would
be 'ab Einion'. Welsh is a wonderfully logical language; and these
aren't theories- mine or otherwise. Bear in mind that the family were
outside Wales and may not have been speaking the language themselves
after a while.

Matthew

______________________________

Douglas Richardson

Re: William Whittington of VA

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 feb 2006 02:14:53

"RAY Montgomery" wrote:
MM.
Thanks for the letter,
I have been working on the line some, and have filled some of the holes, but
not all by any means.
You asked what my source was for the data I posted. It was an extraction of
the new york geneological and biographical record. I have not been able to
find the actual volumn it is in as the extract did not post the volumn and
page.

Here are some other facts that I have obtained on this line.
I will start with William Whittington.

There is only one William Whittington that shows up in an actual parish
register with a christening date and parents in the LDS records.
That is William Whittington was christened 1 mar 1610 son of John
Whittington in alderton, Glouchestershire England. There are no others for
any other county or dates around the 1620-05 area. (Please note that one of
the wifes of William Whittington was an elizabeth Weston, There are westons
in this area of Glouchester)
This William does not show up in the parish records any further, how ever I
have not checked burial records as they are not available.

There is a marriage record in the same parish for one John Whittington, who
married a Mrs Bridget higford. There is a fly in the ointment though, They
were married 1 may 1610 which is 2 months after William was born. I have
checked what records I have to see if the date is right, and print outs is
correct, But I need to go to the original parish register to see what it
says.

Dear Ray ~

I doubt there is a "fly in the ointment." William Whittington was
probably born 1 March 1610/11, not 1610. If so, he would have been
born ten months after his parents' marriage, not two months before it.
It's a common failing for people not to double date for the first three
months of the English calendar when transcribing parish records.

If John Whittington's wife was from a gentry family, then she would
typically be accorded the title of "Mistress" or "Mrs." in her marriage
record. This would be an indicatation of her social standing, not her
marital status. In other words, Higford could well be her maiden name.

DR

RAY Montgomery

Re: William Whittington of VA

Legg inn av RAY Montgomery » 02 feb 2006 02:23:02

MM.
Thanks for the letter,
I have been working on the line some, and have filled some of the holes, but
not all by any means.
You asked what my source was for the data I posted. It was an extraction of
the new york geneological and biographical record. I have not been able to
find the actual volumn it is in as the extract did not post the volumn and
page.

Here are some other facts that I have obtained on this line.
I will start with William Whittington.

There is only one William Whittington that shows up in an actual parish
register with a christening date and parents in the LDS records.
That is William Whittington was christened 1 mar 1610 son of John
Whittington in alderton, Glouchestershire England. There are no others for
any other county or dates around the 1620-05 area. (Please note that one of
the wifes of William Whittington was an elizabeth Weston, There are westons
in this area of Glouchester)
This William does not show up in the parish records any further, how ever I
have not checked burial records as they are not available.

There is a marriage record in the same parish for one John Whittington, who
married a Mrs Bridget higford. There is a fly in the ointment though, They
were married 1 may 1610 which is 2 months after William was born. I have
checked what records I have to see if the date is right, and print outs is
correct, But I need to go to the original parish register to see what it
says.

Please note that it states Mrs Bridget Higford.

I have looked in the Victorian County history of Glouchester and recieved
some more info but it is scetchy in the later generations. It apears the mrs
Bridget Higford was of the Dixton Higford family as they were the only
higfords in that locaility.

If John Married a Mrs Higford, then he himself was probably a widower. But I
have found no proof of this either. Nor have I found any evidence of who the
first husband of mrs Bridget Higford is. Nor her maiden name.

I have tenitively placed the birth of John Whittington the father of William
at circa 1578 of alderton, glouchester Co. England. I need get the burials
for alderton.

As for the richard the supposed father of John, I have found nothing as of
yet.
If richard did marry a hereford, it was probably Hertfordshire, England and
glouchestershire has no herefords.

I have not checked the visitations of Glouchester to see if this family is
mentioned. Need to get time, But there is some solid dates that keep showing
up in the secondary sources on this family.
For examply Richard Whittington has a death date of 1616, and his wife has a
death date of 1612.
He appears to have been born circa 1541.
The parents of are shown to be Esq. Roger hereford that died 23 july 1561 in
sufton, Herefordshire England. This data needs to be checked. margaret
Sturmye Mary Herefords mother is shown with a death date of 1559 So mary
would have had to have been born before that date.
I have been able to resolve one problem that was found by another poster,
and that is that Thomas the son of JOhn Whittington and his wife Elizabeth
Croft was the only son of that marriage and he died siezed by his 6
daughters. He had not sons.
There is a son alexander by this same john whittington how ever that was by
a second marriage to Elizabeth Melbourne. This alexander was born about 1511
and was of Notgrove, Glouchestershire, england.

So in brief, here is what I have found.

William Whittington, born 1610 Died 28 sep 1659 Netherlands, Holland
John Whittington, born circa 1578, Notgrove, glouchester England Married to?
Possibly Mrs Bridget Higford
Richard Whittington, born about 1541, Notgrove, Glouchester England Died
1616 married to Mary Hereford.

From this point back, this line is verified in the Victorian County history
of Glouchester except the marriage to Anne Dauntley
Alexander Whittington Born 1511, Notgrove, Died 1586 Married to Anne
Dauntley
John Whittington, Born 1458 Pauntley, Died aft 1517 Married to Elizabeth
Melbourne
William Whittington born 1432 Pauntly died 3 nov 1470 Married to Elizabeth
Arundel
Robert Whittington Born about 1405 Pauntley, and died 1436 France. Married
to Elizabeth Rouse.
Guy Whittington Born aft 1385 Pauntley, and died aft 30 apr 1440 married to
Cecily Browning
Robert Whittington Born abt 1355 Pauntley, and died 1423 married to Margary
peresford.
I am sorry I can not say that every thing is right. Help would be greatly
appreicated.
Sincerely,
Ray









From: Millerfairfield@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: William Whittington of VA
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:45:05 EST

Ray W writes:-
snip
SIR ALEXANDER WHITTINGTON was born in Notgrove, Gloucestershire, England.
He married ANNE DAUNTSEY

SIR RICHARD WHITTINGTON married MARY HEREFORD, daughter of WILLIAM
HEREFORD.

JOHN WHITTINGTON was born in Gloucestershire, England. He married
BRIDGET
HIGFORD, daughter of JOHN HIGFORD.

CAPT. WILLIAM WHITTINGTON was born 1616 in Gloucestershire, England, and
died 1659 in Northampton County, Virginia.
snip

May I comment as follows:-
1. There is no evidence known to me which identifies the wife of
Alexander
Whittington as Anne Dauntsey
2. Though AW of Notgrove did have a son Richard, I am not convinced that
Richard was ever knighted, nor that he married Mary Hereford
3. Though Richard W had a son John, I am not convinced that this John
married Bridget Higford
4. I know of no evidence that RW's son John had a son William, or that the
same alleged son William was the Captain W. Whittington of Virginia,
referred
to in Ray Montgomery's interesting post.

It would of course be delightful to learn that the descendants of
Alexander
W include Captain William W and his numerous issue. But what is the
evidence, please?
MM

Gjest

Re: Cudworth /Lewknor/Echingham

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 05:02:41

Dear Merilyn ,
According to Richardson `s MCA sub Lewknor p 508
Thomas Lewknor, Kt. of Horsted Keynes, Sussex born abt 1392 married 1st Philippe
Dalyngridge, widow of Richard Berners, Esq. She died Oct 2, 1421 and He married
2nd Elizabeth Echingham, widow of Thomas Hoo, Kt of Luton - Hoo,
Bedfordshird who died August 23, 1420. Elizabeth was the daughter of William Echingham,
kt. of Buckholt, Sussex by his 2nd wife Alice Batisford. Thomas Lewknor died
in 1452 and two years later in 1454 his widow Elizabeth with her sister Joan
Rykhill disputed with their cousin Sir Richard Fiennes., grandson of Alice
Batisford`s sister for possession of the manor of Buckholt. She is mentioned in
the will of her step-son, Thomas Hoo, Lord Hoo in 1455 who referred to her as
my lady lewknore, my mother-in-law. quite possibly She is the lady Elizabeth
Lewknor of Horsted Keynes, Sussex who left a will dated 21 March 1450, proved 23
February 1464.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Cudworth /Lewknor/Echingham

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 02 feb 2006 06:27:13

Dear James
Thankyou so much for that information. I think I've got them sorted now,
thanks to you and others on the list, so thankyou everyone.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 02/02/06 13:33:23
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Cudworth /Lewknor/Echingham

Dear Merilyn ,
According to Richardson `s MCA sub Lewknor p 508
Thomas Lewknor, Kt. of Horsted Keynes, Sussex born abt 1392 married 1st
Philippe
Dalyngridge, widow of Richard Berners, Esq. She died Oct 2, 1421 and He
married
2nd Elizabeth Echingham, widow of Thomas Hoo, Kt of Luton - Hoo,
Bedfordshird who died August 23, 1420. Elizabeth was the daughter of William
Echingham,
kt. of Buckholt, Sussex by his 2nd wife Alice Batisford. Thomas Lewknor died
in 1452 and two years later in 1454 his widow Elizabeth with her sister
Joan
Rykhill disputed with their cousin Sir Richard Fiennes., grandson of Alice
Batisford`s sister for possession of the manor of Buckholt. She is mentioned
in
the will of her step-son, Thomas Hoo, Lord Hoo in 1455 who referred to her
as
my lady lewknore, my mother-in-law. quite possibly She is the lady Elizabeth
Lewknor of Horsted Keynes, Sussex who left a will dated 21 March 1450,
proved 23
February 1464.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Knightly class

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 08:53:57

In a message dated 2/1/2006 3:14:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mllt1@leicester.ac.uk writes:

although the number who assumed the honour was diminishing; a man busy
in local government as a coroner, forest official, sheriff or
under-sheriff. At any time in the thirteenth century there were men of
this kind throughout the counties of England. A large part of local
government depended on them. To define the class itself, however, is
more difficult. Contemporaries had no word for it.


The most telling part of this is that they "had no word for it".
Therefore, they had no concious conception of such a class.
Therefore, the class *did* not exist.
It only *exists* in historial review, by historical revisionism.
In order to state some further conclusions based on it.
The people living at the time, had no knowledge of any such *class* existing.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: OT When did it become legal to marry one's sister-in-law

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 12:46:02

I have an instance of first cousins marrying in 1726 but I am sure it
happened long before that time.

My next door neighbour (now deceased) married her 1st husband's brother in
the late 1940s.

Rose
Epsom Downs/UK

Gjest

Re: OT When did it become legal to marry one's sister-in-law

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 17:54:02

In a message dated 2/2/2006 3:21:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
lynawolf@yahoo.com.au writes:

Can anyone recommend a reliable source that would give the date
when it became legal to marry one's dead wife's sister? Also when
it became legal for first cousins to marry, etc? I have this happening
in 1739 in Cambridgeshire.



It was never legal to marry your dead wife's sister.
However many people married the sister of their dead wife.
That's the problem with two adjectives in a row.
By the way, the Levitical law actually commands you to marry the sister of
your dead wife, if they had no children by their own marriage.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: OT When did it become legal to marry one's sister-in-law

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 17:54:12

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/2/2006 3:21:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
lynawolf@yahoo.com.au writes:

Can anyone recommend a reliable source that would give the date
when it became legal to marry one's dead wife's sister? Also when
it became legal for first cousins to marry, etc? I have this happening
in 1739 in Cambridgeshire.



It was never legal to marry your dead wife's sister.
However many people married the sister of their dead wife.
That's the problem with two adjectives in a row.
By the way, the Levitical law actually commands you to marry the sister of
your dead wife, if they had no children by their own marriage.

Does not the Levitical law rather command you to marry the wife of your
dead brother, if they had no children?

Gjest

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 18:07:02

In a message dated 2/2/2006 4:26:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mllt1@leicester.ac.uk writes:

But that is the surname Turk - is Turcott the same surname? I don't
really see that is has to be - it looks rather as if its origin is an
English place-name. I don't know of any place called Turcott or Turcote
or something like that, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't one.
-cott and -cote are common place-name elements (meaning 'cottage(s)


Take it the next step.
The name rather than being Turc-cott, might be Tur-cott
So the first element wouldn't be related to "Turk" at all.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 02 feb 2006 18:14:40

In article <281.509475d.31139405@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/2/2006 4:26:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mllt1@leicester.ac.uk writes:

But that is the surname Turk - is Turcott the same surname? I don't
really see that is has to be - it looks rather as if its origin is an
English place-name. I don't know of any place called Turcott or Turcote
or something like that, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't one.
-cott and -cote are common place-name elements (meaning 'cottage(s)


Take it the next step.
The name rather than being Turc-cott, might be Tur-cott
So the first element wouldn't be related to "Turk" at all.

I don't see the message to which this replies (that d*** gateway again,
I suppose), but I thought we laid this to rest. Given the appearance of
Middle-English roots in the form 'Turcotte', I was initially skeptical,
but I am satisfied that 'Turcot' is French, not an English, surname, and
appears to derive in a linguistically plausible route with '-ot' as a
diminutive or familiar accretion to the epithet 'le Turc' or simply
'Turc', which is certainly related to 'Turks' in some way, though there
is not enough information as to its meaning to claim that the initial
user of the name must have been a crusader (or a Turk!). I think there
is general evidence that epithets of this type were often used for
people with dark hair or complexion (or red, etc.) but who were not
necessarily exogenous to a local population.

Holders of the surname in the US are (perhaps exclusively) of Quebecois
origin. The name (in all logical variants) is not on the radar in Great
Britain in 1881 (not among the top thousand surnames, at least), and it
does not appear in Reaney-Wilson; on the other hand, it is well attested
in France, with a specific geographic concentration in the Vendee (west
coast between Nantes & La Rochelle), suggesting a coherent shared source.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 02 feb 2006 18:18:26

In article
<nathanieltaylor-A5D8AD.12144002022006@news.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote:

Given the appearance of
Middle-English roots in the form 'Turcotte', I was initially skeptical,

I meant, given the appearance of *what looked like* Middle English roots
(specifically '-cotte' or '-cote') ... I am satisfied that 'Turcotte'
is NOT composed of Middle English roots.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Gjest

Re: Scolastica

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 18:20:02

In a message dated 2/2/2006 6:14:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

(e.g., 'John', the single
most popular man's name from the 13th century on, almost everywhere in
Europe)


And the US and probably Canada as well (not sure).
For completeness sake, Mary is the most common woman's name, by a wide
margin, with Elizabeth coming in second.

For the men John, William, Robert, James and Richard I believe.

Gjest

Re: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 18:28:02

In a message dated 2/2/2006 6:26:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

You asked earlier whether it was birth/death/marriage certificates or
published books. For my Y line, it is Certs back to the son of the
immigrant. He and his siblings are all named in their father's will,
and this group of names eventually allowed the group to be identified in
Europe, and church birth/death/marriage records then prove it back to
the earliest generation.



You dont really mean this I trust.
Birth certificates are a relatively modern invention.
I suspect you mean Bible records or baptismal records for the births.

Same with death certificates, although they seem to predate birth
certificates in many locations. But rather, wills, probate, obituaries are the most
likely source of *death* information in the 19th century.
Are they not?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: OT When did it become legal to marry one's sister-in-law

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 18:29:02

In a message dated 2/2/2006 9:04:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

It was never legal to marry your dead wife's sister.
However many people married the sister of their dead wife.
That's the problem with two adjectives in a row.
By the way, the Levitical law actually commands you to marry the sister of
your dead wife, if they had no children by their own marriage.

Does not the Levitical law rather command you to marry the wife of your
dead brother, if they had no children?


Oops you're right. I was so glib in my response that I overshot my mark :)
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: crusaders

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 18:37:02

In a message dated 2/2/2006 9:15:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

I don't see the message to which this replies (that d*** gateway again,
I suppose), but I thought we laid this to rest.


As far as laying recent posts to rest... the bad news is this: AOL has JUST
started sending me all the messages posted to soc-gen-med over the past month
or whatever.

It's rather disconcerting since they ALL have posting dates within the last
few days. In other words, the date that I see in the heading is the date
sent to me (or to AOL I suppose) or something... but NOT the date on which the
original item was actually posted.

In the last two days I've gotten 600 emails, I'm not joking at all. And
they are still coming faster than I can read them.

Will Johnson

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 02 feb 2006 18:38:23

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/2/2006 6:26:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

You asked earlier whether it was birth/death/marriage certificates or
published books. For my Y line, it is Certs back to the son of the
immigrant. He and his siblings are all named in their father's will,
and this group of names eventually allowed the group to be identified in
Europe, and church birth/death/marriage records then prove it back to
the earliest generation.



You dont really mean this I trust.

I do.

Birth certificates are a relatively modern invention.

The birth certs I was referring to were 20th century. (Note the first
sentence says birth certificates, the last makes no reference to
certificates.

I suspect you mean Bible records or baptismal records for the births.

No to Bibles. To Baptismal records, the parish records in question
report both birth and baptism, and their primary purpose morphed from
one to the other (keep in mind, the immigrant was from Revolutionary era
France, when the role of religion and its sacraments was, well,
different). It would have been more accurate to say
birth/baptism/banns/marriage/death/burial records but that does get a
bit unwieldy, doesn't it?


Same with death certificates, although they seem to predate birth
certificates in many locations.

They also name parents, so a death certificate from 1910 can provide
someone born in 1810, which is the case here.


But rather, wills, probate, obituaries are the most
likely source of *death* information in the 19th century.
Are they not?

Yes. They are. I was not providing a roadmap to research. I was
describing my particular line of proof, and just the bare basics. I
also have census, county histories, etc., but that wasn't the point.

taf

Tompkins, M.L.

RE: crusaders

Legg inn av Tompkins, M.L. » 02 feb 2006 18:59:02

In article <281.509475d.31139405@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/2/2006 4:26:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mllt1@leicester.ac.uk writes:

But that is the surname Turk - is Turcott the same surname? I don't
really see that is has to be - it looks rather as if its origin is an

English place-name. I don't know of any place called Turcott or
Turcote or something like that, but that doesn't mean that there
wasn't one.
-cott and -cote are common place-name elements (meaning 'cottage(s)


Take it the next step.
The name rather than being Turc-cott, might be Tur-cott So the first
element wouldn't be related to "Turk" at all.

<<I don't see the message to which this replies (that d*** gateway
again, I suppose), but I thought we laid this to rest.>>

I think you probably did see it, Nat - that is part of my original reply
to Bob Turcott's very first post, from Thursday last week (26/1/2006).
It seems it only reached Will Johnson today (2/2/2006). I think now
that AOL is letting emails from Rootsweb get through to its members he
is being overwhelmed by a sudden flood of old postings, which is
probably why he has misunderstood mine.

Matt Tompkins

Gjest

Re: Fw: Henriette Marie's autograph

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 20:17:02

In a message dated 2/2/2006 10:35:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

So if Richardson wants to use that affected version of her name, he should
for consistency refer to William the Conqueror "Willelm kyng".


Why Willelm? Why not Vilhelm ? Wasn't he a Viking?
And V is for Viking and V is for Vilhelm! (And V is for Victory.)

Actually I just made up Vilhelm but it sounds better to my ear then Willelm.

Vilhelm Johansson

Ginny Wagner

RE: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 02 feb 2006 20:26:02

< but that wasn't the point.> And, Todd, if I didn't thank
you, I do now. Appreciate your post and letting me/us know
that it is not only possible to document but that due to
human error, it is preferable to verify the information
provided by secondary sources whenever possible. Whether
you intended it as such, or not, it does loosely serve as a
roadmap for proper genealogy.

I'll say that for me, footnotes have been a font of
information ... sometimes I just can't get the specific
documents ... hopefully one day everything will be on line
and we can all have access to our shared history, able to at
least read a document that our ancestors signed or wrote ...
maybe even get a copy.

When I'm done with my current project, I plan to verify what
I've read in secondary sources. ;-)


Ginny
ginnywagner@austin.rr.com

Gjest

Re: Medieval Lines to Empiric Rome

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2006 20:31:02

In a message dated 2/2/2006 11:07:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

The attempt to answer this question affirmatively is the whole point, (as I
understand it), of Ch. Settipani's Magnum Opus, (actually most of his works
are gem-packed magni opi), _Continuité_.


If someone has a line that purports to connect a medieval person to someone
was a known person (versus a mythological person), during the time of the
first 12 Emperors, I would like to hear the details of that line.
Unfortunately, merely pointing to a non-online book, and saying *read*
doesn't elicit any further discussion. That is the nature, in general, of an
online discussion group.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Medieval Lines to Imperial Rome

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 02 feb 2006 20:32:56

In article <269.509d826.3113b486@aol.com>, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/2/2006 11:07:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
FordMommaerts@Cox.net writes:

The attempt to answer this question affirmatively is the whole point, (as I
understand it), of Ch. Settipani's Magnum Opus, (actually most of his works
are gem-packed magni opi), _Continuité_.


If someone has a line that purports to connect a medieval person to someone
was a known person (versus a mythological person), during the time of the
first 12 Emperors, I would like to hear the details of that line.
Unfortunately, merely pointing to a non-online book, and saying *read*
doesn't elicit any further discussion. That is the nature, in general, of
an online discussion group.

I think it is better to praise than to condemn someone for referring to
(gasp) an ACTUAL BOOK as a source of information when a question is
posed. In this case, the book is enormous, in French, and difficult to
browse--but it is certainly a magnum opus of sorts. I wrote a review
essay on it for TAG a couple of years ago.

You're looking for lines, however. That particular book does NOT
produce and defend a specific line from the time of the Roman Empire to
modernity (rather, its thesis is about the dipsuted level of continuity
between the senatorial elite of Republican and early imperial Rome, and
the (often provincial) landed aristocracy of the fourth-fifth centuries.

On the other hand, a line from modernity (i.e. the eleventh century) to
antiquity (i.e. pharaonic Egypt) is done in Settipani's earlier _Nos
ancetres de l'antiquite_, a line which has been bounced around the
internet and discussed for years and years.

People can argue about Welsh or Irish royal lines which antedate 476 AD,
but I have yet to see any line which connects any modern individual to a
Roman, living in the Roman empire, before the late fifth century, which
can be defended for each generation (at best such lines have many links
where are probabilities or possibilities). Settipani's contender for
such a line, in _Nos ancetres_, bypasses Romans (proprement dit) and
involves Greeks, Armenians, and Persians, at the far eastern borders of
the Byzantine / Roman empire, in late antiquity.

Nevertheless, there is a long history of 'DFA' discussions in the
archives here, worth browsing.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Douglas Richardson

Re: Fw: Henriette Marie's autograph

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 feb 2006 20:57:04

I don't think I would refer to "Henriette Marie" as the "affected"
version of queen's name. It was her birth name.

Vilhelm is a made up name. There's an obvious difference.

I suggest you compare apples to oranges, ....or should I say William's
to Henriette Marie's?

DR

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/2/2006 10:35:27 AM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

So if Richardson wants to use that affected version of her name, he should
for consistency refer to William the Conqueror "Willelm kyng".


Why Willelm? Why not Vilhelm ? Wasn't he a Viking?
And V is for Viking and V is for Vilhelm! (And V is for Victory.)

Actually I just made up Vilhelm but it sounds better to my ear then Willelm.

Vilhelm Johansson

JeffChipman

Re: Sir John Griffith IPM 1471

Legg inn av JeffChipman » 03 feb 2006 00:10:18

To bring this to some kind of closure, I have been unsuccessful in
getting this IPM translated even for a fee. Notre Dame informed me
they couldn't handle it, nor could the classics department at Missouri
State. Paul Reed told me in a private email that the thin strips (pp
1,3,5,7,9) are for the escheator and contain little material of
genealogical interest. That leaves 5 pages (2,4,6,8,10) as the ones
needing translating. I found a British translator who would do the
work for about $65.00/hour, although she did not say how long it would
take. The IPM has become something of a hot potato.
I have sent Paul Reed and Michael Miller copies of the IPM. If they or
someone they know wants to make a run at it, that's fine, but I have
decided to no longer pursue getting it translated, and am going to file
it away for the day (which won't be soon) I feel like picking it up
again. The Society of Antiquaries material which shows Sir Walter
Griffith as having two wives makes it clear that both he and my Rhys
(d. 1489) were sons of Sir John Griffith and Catherine Tyrwhitt. I
have no problem with that.
I would strongly urge anybody who is contemplating ordering a document
like this to make certain they have somebody who is competent to help
them, and should be aware that, like any other document, handwriting
varies, and may be a further impediment to translation beyond the
archaic language.

Gjest

Re: Mayflower ancestors

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 01:04:02

Dear Will and Others,
There is such a site. It`s called Caleb
Johnson`s Mayflower Web Pages and the address is
http://members.aol.com/calebj/dir.html
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA
(desc Alden/ Mullins, Howland/Tilley, Soule,Doten, Hopkins, Cooke, Warren,
Chilton, Rogers, and Edward Fuller)

Gjest

Re: matrilineal comments

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2006 01:15:02

Dear John, Leo, Douglas and Others,
My Matrilineal line
runs Marjorie May Condon b 1939, Roxie Anna Miller b 1904-d 1985, Effie May
Delano b 1877-d 1933, Calista Anna Park b 1842-d 1905, Dorinda White b 1807-d
1893, Rebecca Howard b 1781-d 1869, Rebecca Aldrich b 1755-d 1814, Sarah Benson
b 1715-d ?, Sarah Thayer

Svar

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