Blount-Ayala

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Gjest

Re: Is _King Kong_ Racist?

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 des 2005 23:21:53

Dear Spencer,
If movies like King Kong, Mighty Joe Young and the
Disney films involving Chimpanzees such as Monkey`s Uncle are racist what were
the Planet of the Apes cycle ? In order to be "racist" doesn`t there need to be
two races of mankind involved ? or is supposed oppression of a species enough
? If it is an act of racism to keep an animal species, then what of horses,
cats, or dogs for starters. Frankly, I would not favor "equal rights" for
animals, being far too predatory a creature to think of being a vegetarian apart
from which the Cat is convinced he`s a god as is.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Leo van de Pas

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 16 des 2005 01:47:02

Dear Adrian,

A while back Tony Hoskins gave me information that Sir Anthony Poyntz and
Elizabeth Huddesfield had a daughter, Mary, born about 1505. This implies to
me that they were married about 1504 or earlier (my guess work). Then Sir
Anthony was about 24 or 25 when he married and that sounds right for his
first marriage.

If on 12 April 1527 the king's grant tells that Sir Anthony was on that day
married to Joan Guildford-Vaux, then Elizabeth Huddesfield must have died a
fair bit before that, but when?

You give that Richard Guildford had a first wife, Anne Pympe, who was the
mother of his heir. What is the name of that heir? In Cahiers de Saint Louis
I found a son for Richard Guidlford but by Joan Vaux. Sir Henry Guildford
born 1489, died May 1532, who (in 1512) married (1) Margaret/Margery Bryan
she died in 1532 and (2) Mary Wotton and no children.
Cahiers de Saint Louis give a list of sources but as they apply to the whole
chapter (about 12 pages) it is hard to say which one we need here.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: <ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d 1535


In Maclean's book, the drop tree on page 95 (1983 reprint) shows Joan
Guildford to the left of Sir Anthony Poyntz, and Elizabeth Huddesfield to
the
right, without indicating the marriage order. However the text (page 69)
makes it
clear that Elizabeth Huddesfield was his 1st wife. Elizabeth
Huddesfield's
mother's will of 21 Nov 1510 refers to her dau of Elizabeth Poyntz. The
marriage to Joan Guildford was before 12 April 1527 when the king granted
them a
tun of Gascon wine, yearly during their lives.

By the way, the original post omitted to mention Richard Guildford's 1st
wife, and mother of his heir, which the Vis. of Kent names as Anne Pympe.

Adrian

In a message dated 15/12/2005 20:38:43 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Dear Will,

I have a few questions.

Ronny Bodine in his superb book on ancestors of Dorothea Poyntz gives

Sirf Anthony Poyntz, born ca.1480 died 1535. He married secondly by 1510
Elizabeth Huddesfield who died before 12 April 1527.

You say that Sir Anthony Poyntz married Joan Vaux before 20 February
1522.
To accomodate this, Elizabeth Huddesfield has to die before 20 February
1522
and Joan Vaux is the third wife (who was the first?).

You are probably aware that Sir Anthony Poyntz and Elizabeth Huddesfield
also are ancestors of Prince Charles? As well as of Tim Powys-Lybbe and
Tony
Hoskins.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas






Gjest

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2005 02:02:02

In Maclean's book, the drop tree on page 95 (1983 reprint) shows Joan
Guildford to the left of Sir Anthony Poyntz, and Elizabeth Huddesfield to the
right, without indicating the marriage order. However the text (page 69) makes it
clear that Elizabeth Huddesfield was his 1st wife. Elizabeth Huddesfield's
mother's will of 21 Nov 1510 refers to her dau of Elizabeth Poyntz. The
marriage to Joan Guildford was before 12 April 1527 when the king granted them a
tun of Gascon wine, yearly during their lives.

By the way, the original post omitted to mention Richard Guildford's 1st
wife, and mother of his heir, which the Vis. of Kent names as Anne Pympe.

Adrian

In a message dated 15/12/2005 20:38:43 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Dear Will,

I have a few questions.

Ronny Bodine in his superb book on ancestors of Dorothea Poyntz gives

Sirf Anthony Poyntz, born ca.1480 died 1535. He married secondly by 1510
Elizabeth Huddesfield who died before 12 April 1527.

You say that Sir Anthony Poyntz married Joan Vaux before 20 February 1522.
To accomodate this, Elizabeth Huddesfield has to die before 20 February 1522
and Joan Vaux is the third wife (who was the first?).

You are probably aware that Sir Anthony Poyntz and Elizabeth Huddesfield
also are ancestors of Prince Charles? As well as of Tim Powys-Lybbe and Tony
Hoskins.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

John Higgins

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av John Higgins » 16 des 2005 02:49:02

Leo:

You have the heir of Richard Guildford [aka Guldeford] and Anne Pympe [aka
Pimpe] in your database: Sir Edward, who m. Eleanor West.

Sir Richard and Anne Pympe had 6 children (2 sons and 4 daughters), and at
least 5 of the children of this marriage are ancestors of Prince William.

Also, the descent chart in Maclean's Poyntz that Adrian cited does in fact
indicate Elizabeth Huddesfield as the 1st wife wife of Sir Anthony Poyntz,
although placing her in a way which would suggest that she's the 2nd wife
(and not explicitly indicating that Joan [Vaux] Guildford, placed to her
left, is the 2nd wife).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d 1535


Dear Adrian,

A while back Tony Hoskins gave me information that Sir Anthony Poyntz and
Elizabeth Huddesfield had a daughter, Mary, born about 1505. This implies
to
me that they were married about 1504 or earlier (my guess work). Then Sir
Anthony was about 24 or 25 when he married and that sounds right for his
first marriage.

If on 12 April 1527 the king's grant tells that Sir Anthony was on that
day
married to Joan Guildford-Vaux, then Elizabeth Huddesfield must have died
a
fair bit before that, but when?

You give that Richard Guildford had a first wife, Anne Pympe, who was the
mother of his heir. What is the name of that heir? In Cahiers de Saint
Louis
I found a son for Richard Guidlford but by Joan Vaux. Sir Henry Guildford
born 1489, died May 1532, who (in 1512) married (1) Margaret/Margery Bryan
she died in 1532 and (2) Mary Wotton and no children.
Cahiers de Saint Louis give a list of sources but as they apply to the
whole
chapter (about 12 pages) it is hard to say which one we need here.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: <ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d 1535



In Maclean's book, the drop tree on page 95 (1983 reprint) shows Joan
Guildford to the left of Sir Anthony Poyntz, and Elizabeth Huddesfield
to
the
right, without indicating the marriage order. However the text (page
69)
makes it
clear that Elizabeth Huddesfield was his 1st wife. Elizabeth
Huddesfield's
mother's will of 21 Nov 1510 refers to her dau of Elizabeth Poyntz.
The
marriage to Joan Guildford was before 12 April 1527 when the king
granted
them a
tun of Gascon wine, yearly during their lives.

By the way, the original post omitted to mention Richard Guildford's 1st
wife, and mother of his heir, which the Vis. of Kent names as Anne
Pympe.

Adrian

In a message dated 15/12/2005 20:38:43 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Dear Will,

I have a few questions.

Ronny Bodine in his superb book on ancestors of Dorothea Poyntz gives

Sirf Anthony Poyntz, born ca.1480 died 1535. He married secondly by
1510
Elizabeth Huddesfield who died before 12 April 1527.

You say that Sir Anthony Poyntz married Joan Vaux before 20 February
1522.
To accomodate this, Elizabeth Huddesfield has to die before 20 February
1522
and Joan Vaux is the third wife (who was the first?).

You are probably aware that Sir Anthony Poyntz and Elizabeth
Huddesfield
also are ancestors of Prince Charles? As well as of Tim Powys-Lybbe and
Tony
Hoskins.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas







Gjest

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2005 07:22:02

In a message dated 12/15/2005 12:38:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Anthony Poyntz, born ca.1480 died 1535. He married secondly by 1510
Elizabeth Huddesfield who died before 12 April 1527.

You say that Sir Anthony Poyntz married Joan Vaux before 20 February 1522.
To accomodate this, Elizabeth Huddesfield has to die before 20 February 1522
and Joan Vaux is the third wife (who was the first?).


Yes this new document *updates* the date of 12 Apr 1527. Presumably that
author did not see this new document dated 20 Feb 1522 in which Joan Vaux is
already married to Anthony. So Elizabeth Huddesfield is now "died before 20
Feb 1522".

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2005 19:10:03

In a message dated 16/12/2005 00:37:39 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Leo wrote;

Dear Adrian,


A while back Tony Hoskins gave me information that Sir Anthony Poyntz and
Elizabeth Huddesfield had a daughter, Mary, born about 1505. This implies to
me that they were married about 1504 or earlier (my guess work). Then Sir
Anthony was about 24 or 25 when he married and that sounds right for his
first marriage.

If on 12 April 1527 the king's grant tells that Sir Anthony was on that day
married to Joan Guildford-Vaux, then Elizabeth Huddesfield must have died a
fair bit before that, but when?
<<<<

I'm not sure about the date of marriage, nor when she died. I have his
issue, all by Elizabeth Huddesfield as: (from Maclean, VG Vis of Gloucs)

NICHOLAS (-1556 PCC Will (22 Wrastley) pr 8 Jul 1557, ipm Jan 1556/7); Sir
knt; Of Iron Acton, Groom of bedchamber; In 1538 & 1544 sheriff of Glous; m
Jun 1528, at Yate, Joan (-31 Mar 1563) d of THOMAS Ld BERKELEY; she m2 Sir
EDWARD DYER, a favourite of Hy VIII


GYLES (-dsp)

FERDINANDO

ROBERT [not in VG]

THOMAS (-<1520)

1)Margaret; m (left issue) Sir JOHN NEWTON (-Will pr 17 Nov 1568 by wdw,
MI East Harptree) of Barrs ourt, Glous kt and East Harptree [VG: Hartrey],
Somerset.

2)Mary (-<1565); m Sir EDWARD GORGES kt (-11 Feb 1565 bur Wraxall) of
Wraxall, Somerset


You give that Richard Guildford had a first wife, Anne Pympe, who was the

mother of his heir. What is the name of that heir? In Cahiers de Saint Louis
I found a son for Richard Guidlford but by Joan Vaux. Sir Henry Guildford
born 1489, died May 1532, who (in 1512) married (1) Margaret/Margery Bryan
she died in 1532 and (2) Mary Wotton and no children.
Cahiers de Saint Louis give a list of sources but as they apply to the whole
chapter (about 12 pages) it is hard to say which one we need here.

I have Richard Guildford issue as (From Hasted's History of Kent, except
where shown; VK vis of Knet 1530/1 & 1592; 136 Shaw's Knights of England; MDBt
email quoting Burke's extinct Baronetage; 112 Oxford precise DNB; 119 David
Faris 1st Ed.)

By 1st wife (named in VK as Anne Pympe)

1.) EDWARD; Sir [136 kt 25 Sep 1513 Tournay Church]; Inht Halden; Marshal of
Calais; ld warden and constable of Dover Castle (following Sir EDWARD
POYNINGS (-1521) and preceding GEORGE BOLEYNE Vt ROCHFORD); [?trustee to Will of
Lucy wdw of Sir ANTHONY BROWNE of Sec H]
[CP Vol IX p 726, Guardian of JOHN DUDLEY (later his s-in-law); Vol IV
pp156/7 Sir Ed m Eleanor d of THOMAS WEST Ld De La WARR (c1465-11 Oct 1525) (by
his m1 Elizabeth d of HUGH MORTIMER of Mortimers Hall) and sis & ch (with
Dorothy m Sir HENRY OWEN; who had 3 daus) of THOMAS Ld DE LA WARR (-1554)

They left Richard Guildford, died 1536/7 in Spain (but noy in KV) and Jane
who inht Haldon and m Sir John Dudle, later Dk of Northumberland

2.) GEORGE; Inherited Hemsted and Frensham manors; In 1522-24 acts passed
allowing him to turn a road through Hemsted manor; In 1523\4 sheriff of Kent;
In c1540 the king granted him Dencrouch, Highlands and Prigles manors, Pembury
parish, Kent which he quickly sold to Sir ALEXANDER COLEPEPER of Bedgbury
which sale was confirmed 1543/4 [MDBt m Elizabeth d&h of Sir ROBERT MORTIMER of
Mortime's Hall, Essex by Isabella d of JOHN HOWARD 1Dk NORFOLK]

Left Issue Sir John (m Barbara d of Thomas West Ld Delamwarr), Mary m Owen
West and Anne m1 Walter Wadland and m2 Richard Lyne of Sussex


and by m2 Jane Vaux

HENRY [112 (1489-1532)]; dsp; Sir [136: knt 15 Mar 1511 by k FERDINAND, at
Burgos, Castile; kt-bnrt 1513, ?at bat of Spurs 16 Aug; 24 Apr, inst 6 May
1526, KG] [112 s of Sir Rd; Served FERDINAND (r1474-1516) k of Castile & Aragon
in war against the Moors; In 1513 k's standard-bearer in Fr campaign; In 1520
with Hy VIII at Field of Cloth of Gold and to Gravelines; With WOLSEY to
Calais; In 1515-22 master of the horse; In knight of the shire for Kent; In 1529
signed articles against Wolsey, but remained his friend, though retaining Hy
VIII's favour] In 1532/3 his heirs sold his manor at Buckland parish, Kent
to RICHARD HILL (in 1545/6 held by JOHN TUFTON [?ancestor of Er of THANET]
[JHG m1 Mary d of Sir ROBERT WOOTEN, m2 Mary d of Sir THOMAS BRYAN by Margaret Bo
wsey, another eml has m Margaret (-1532) d of NICHOLAS CAREW (-3 Mar 1
1579/0 by Elizabeth Bryan (-c17 Jul 1546 London)]

From my Browne records; (VK has only daus 2 and 3 and gives them as issue by
Anne Pympe) daughters are/include:

1)Philipa m Sir JOHN (1479-1556/7) of Firle s of WILLIAM GAGE (-1496)

2)Winfred/Fridiswide m Sir MATHEW BROWNE (-bur 1557) [my Sec H] of Betchworth

3)Elizabeth m1 ISLEY m2 STAFFORD

4)[119 Mary m[1] Sir WILLIAM HAUTE/HAWTE of Bisshopsborne, Kent » (inc Jane
m 1537 Sir THOMAS WYATT of Allington Castle, Kent] m2 FINCH


Note that my notes on these families are quit old. I have not checked in
Gen-Med for any recent additions etc

regards,

Adrian

steven perkins

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av steven perkins » 16 des 2005 19:23:01

The Pympe ancestry is treated in Arch. Cant., v.6, around p.134. I
believe a the article trats Pympe, Thornbury and Guldeford. All
ancestors of Rev Haute Wyatt.

SCPerkins

On 12/16/05, ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com <ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 16/12/2005 00:37:39 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Leo wrote;


Dear Adrian,

A while back Tony Hoskins gave me information that Sir Anthony Poyntz and
Elizabeth Huddesfield had a daughter, Mary, born about 1505. This implies to
me that they were married about 1504 or earlier (my guess work). Then Sir
Anthony was about 24 or 25 when he married and that sounds right for his
first marriage.

If on 12 April 1527 the king's grant tells that Sir Anthony was on that day
married to Joan Guildford-Vaux, then Elizabeth Huddesfield must have died a
fair bit before that, but when?


I'm not sure about the date of marriage, nor when she died. I have his
issue, all by Elizabeth Huddesfield as: (from Maclean, VG Vis of Gloucs)

NICHOLAS (-1556 PCC Will (22 Wrastley) pr 8 Jul 1557, ipm Jan 1556/7); Sir
knt; Of Iron Acton, Groom of bedchamber; In 1538 & 1544 sheriff of Glous; m
Jun 1528, at Yate, Joan (-31 Mar 1563) d of THOMAS Ld BERKELEY; she m2 Sir
EDWARD DYER, a favourite of Hy VIII


GYLES (-dsp)

FERDINANDO

ROBERT [not in VG]

THOMAS (-<1520)

1)Margaret; m (left issue) Sir JOHN NEWTON (-Will pr 17 Nov 1568 by wdw,
MI East Harptree) of Barrs ourt, Glous kt and East Harptree [VG: Hartrey],
Somerset.

2)Mary (-<1565); m Sir EDWARD GORGES kt (-11 Feb 1565 bur Wraxall) of
Wraxall, Somerset



You give that Richard Guildford had a first wife, Anne Pympe, who was the
mother of his heir. What is the name of that heir? In Cahiers de Saint Louis
I found a son for Richard Guidlford but by Joan Vaux. Sir Henry Guildford
born 1489, died May 1532, who (in 1512) married (1) Margaret/Margery Bryan
she died in 1532 and (2) Mary Wotton and no children.
Cahiers de Saint Louis give a list of sources but as they apply to the whole
chapter (about 12 pages) it is hard to say which one we need here.


I have Richard Guildford issue as (From Hasted's History of Kent, except
where shown; VK vis of Knet 1530/1 & 1592; 136 Shaw's Knights of England; MDBt
email quoting Burke's extinct Baronetage; 112 Oxford precise DNB; 119 David
Faris 1st Ed.)

By 1st wife (named in VK as Anne Pympe)

1.) EDWARD; Sir [136 kt 25 Sep 1513 Tournay Church]; Inht Halden; Marshal of
Calais; ld warden and constable of Dover Castle (following Sir EDWARD
POYNINGS (-1521) and preceding GEORGE BOLEYNE Vt ROCHFORD); [?trustee to Will of
Lucy wdw of Sir ANTHONY BROWNE of Sec H]
[CP Vol IX p 726, Guardian of JOHN DUDLEY (later his s-in-law); Vol IV
pp156/7 Sir Ed m Eleanor d of THOMAS WEST Ld De La WARR (c1465-11 Oct 1525) (by
his m1 Elizabeth d of HUGH MORTIMER of Mortimers Hall) and sis & ch (with
Dorothy m Sir HENRY OWEN; who had 3 daus) of THOMAS Ld DE LA WARR (-1554)

They left Richard Guildford, died 1536/7 in Spain (but noy in KV) and Jane
who inht Haldon and m Sir John Dudle, later Dk of Northumberland

2.) GEORGE; Inherited Hemsted and Frensham manors; In 1522-24 acts passed
allowing him to turn a road through Hemsted manor; In 1523\4 sheriff of Kent;
In c1540 the king granted him Dencrouch, Highlands and Prigles manors, Pembury
parish, Kent which he quickly sold to Sir ALEXANDER COLEPEPER of Bedgbury
which sale was confirmed 1543/4 [MDBt m Elizabeth d&h of Sir ROBERT MORTIMER of
Mortime's Hall, Essex by Isabella d of JOHN HOWARD 1Dk NORFOLK]

Left Issue Sir John (m Barbara d of Thomas West Ld Delamwarr), Mary m Owen
West and Anne m1 Walter Wadland and m2 Richard Lyne of Sussex


and by m2 Jane Vaux

HENRY [112 (1489-1532)]; dsp; Sir [136: knt 15 Mar 1511 by k FERDINAND, at
Burgos, Castile; kt-bnrt 1513, ?at bat of Spurs 16 Aug; 24 Apr, inst 6 May
1526, KG] [112 s of Sir Rd; Served FERDINAND (r1474-1516) k of Castile & Aragon
in war against the Moors; In 1513 k's standard-bearer in Fr campaign; In 1520
with Hy VIII at Field of Cloth of Gold and to Gravelines; With WOLSEY to
Calais; In 1515-22 master of the horse; In knight of the shire for Kent; In 1529
signed articles against Wolsey, but remained his friend, though retaining Hy
VIII's favour] In 1532/3 his heirs sold his manor at Buckland parish, Kent
to RICHARD HILL (in 1545/6 held by JOHN TUFTON [?ancestor of Er of THANET]
[JHG m1 Mary d of Sir ROBERT WOOTEN, m2 Mary d of Sir THOMAS BRYAN by Margaret Bo
wsey, another eml has m Margaret (-1532) d of NICHOLAS CAREW (-3 Mar 1
1579/0 by Elizabeth Bryan (-c17 Jul 1546 London)]

From my Browne records; (VK has only daus 2 and 3 and gives them as issue by
Anne Pympe) daughters are/include:

1)Philipa m Sir JOHN (1479-1556/7) of Firle s of WILLIAM GAGE (-1496)

2)Winfred/Fridiswide m Sir MATHEW BROWNE (-bur 1557) [my Sec H] of Betchworth

3)Elizabeth m1 ISLEY m2 STAFFORD

4)[119 Mary m[1] Sir WILLIAM HAUTE/HAWTE of Bisshopsborne, Kent » (inc Jane
m 1537 Sir THOMAS WYATT of Allington Castle, Kent] m2 FINCH


Note that my notes on these families are quit old. I have not checked in
Gen-Med for any recent additions etc

regards,

Adrian





--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
http://intelligent-internet.info/
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html

Gjest

Re: A gruesome death

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 des 2005 20:41:02

Foulques III "Nerra", Comte 'd'Anjou 972-1040 had a wife named Elizabeth de
Vendome who died in 999 in Angers. The note I have beside her death says
boiled to death", which makes me feel rather queasy to say the least.




If I were your, I should avoid eating lobster. :-)

Adrian

John Higgins

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av John Higgins » 16 des 2005 23:56:02

There is an extensive chapter on the Guildfords in "The Ancestry of Mary
Isaac" by Walter Goodwin Davis. From that a few details can be added on the
daughters of Sir Richard Guildford and Anne Pympe.

Elizabeth (said by Davis to be the eldest daughter) m. (1) Thomas Isley of
Sundridge (d. 1518) (by whom she had 10 sons and 2 daughters, based on the
effigy of her husband). She "is said to have married, and probably did,"
(2) William Stafford of Sutton-at-Home (will dated 1522) and (3) Sir Richard
Shirley of Westneston, Sussex (will dated 1540).

Mary (said by Davis to be the youngest daughter) m. (1) Christopher Kemp,
son of Sir Thomas Kemp of Ollentigh and nephew of John, Cardinal Kemp,
Archbishop of Canterbury; m. 92) Sir William Hawte of Bishopsbourne.

----- Original Message -----
From: <ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d 1535


In a message dated 16/12/2005 00:37:39 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Leo wrote;


Dear Adrian,

A while back Tony Hoskins gave me information that Sir Anthony Poyntz and
Elizabeth Huddesfield had a daughter, Mary, born about 1505. This implies
to
me that they were married about 1504 or earlier (my guess work). Then Sir
Anthony was about 24 or 25 when he married and that sounds right for his
first marriage.

If on 12 April 1527 the king's grant tells that Sir Anthony was on that
day
married to Joan Guildford-Vaux, then Elizabeth Huddesfield must have died
a
fair bit before that, but when?


I'm not sure about the date of marriage, nor when she died. I have his
issue, all by Elizabeth Huddesfield as: (from Maclean, VG Vis of Gloucs)

NICHOLAS (-1556 PCC Will (22 Wrastley) pr 8 Jul 1557, ipm Jan 1556/7);
Sir
knt; Of Iron Acton, Groom of bedchamber; In 1538 & 1544 sheriff of Glous;
m
Jun 1528, at Yate, Joan (-31 Mar 1563) d of THOMAS Ld BERKELEY; she m2
Sir
EDWARD DYER, a favourite of Hy VIII


GYLES (-dsp)

FERDINANDO

ROBERT [not in VG]

THOMAS (-<1520)

1)Margaret; m (left issue) Sir JOHN NEWTON (-Will pr 17 Nov 1568 by
wdw,
MI East Harptree) of Barrs ourt, Glous kt and East Harptree [VG:
Hartrey],
Somerset.

2)Mary (-<1565); m Sir EDWARD GORGES kt (-11 Feb 1565 bur Wraxall) of
Wraxall, Somerset



You give that Richard Guildford had a first wife, Anne Pympe, who was the
mother of his heir. What is the name of that heir? In Cahiers de Saint
Louis
I found a son for Richard Guidlford but by Joan Vaux. Sir Henry
Guildford
born 1489, died May 1532, who (in 1512) married (1) Margaret/Margery
Bryan
she died in 1532 and (2) Mary Wotton and no children.
Cahiers de Saint Louis give a list of sources but as they apply to the
whole
chapter (about 12 pages) it is hard to say which one we need here.


I have Richard Guildford issue as (From Hasted's History of Kent, except
where shown; VK vis of Knet 1530/1 & 1592; 136 Shaw's Knights of England;
MDBt
email quoting Burke's extinct Baronetage; 112 Oxford precise DNB; 119
David
Faris 1st Ed.)

By 1st wife (named in VK as Anne Pympe)

1.) EDWARD; Sir [136 kt 25 Sep 1513 Tournay Church]; Inht Halden; Marshal
of
Calais; ld warden and constable of Dover Castle (following Sir EDWARD
POYNINGS (-1521) and preceding GEORGE BOLEYNE Vt ROCHFORD); [?trustee to
Will of
Lucy wdw of Sir ANTHONY BROWNE of Sec H]
[CP Vol IX p 726, Guardian of JOHN DUDLEY (later his s-in-law); Vol IV
pp156/7 Sir Ed m Eleanor d of THOMAS WEST Ld De La WARR (c1465-11 Oct
1525) (by
his m1 Elizabeth d of HUGH MORTIMER of Mortimers Hall) and sis & ch (with
Dorothy m Sir HENRY OWEN; who had 3 daus) of THOMAS Ld DE LA WARR (-1554)

They left Richard Guildford, died 1536/7 in Spain (but noy in KV) and Jane
who inht Haldon and m Sir John Dudle, later Dk of Northumberland

2.) GEORGE; Inherited Hemsted and Frensham manors; In 1522-24 acts passed
allowing him to turn a road through Hemsted manor; In 1523\4 sheriff of
Kent;
In c1540 the king granted him Dencrouch, Highlands and Prigles manors,
Pembury
parish, Kent which he quickly sold to Sir ALEXANDER COLEPEPER of Bedgbury
which sale was confirmed 1543/4 [MDBt m Elizabeth d&h of Sir ROBERT
MORTIMER of
Mortime's Hall, Essex by Isabella d of JOHN HOWARD 1Dk NORFOLK]

Left Issue Sir John (m Barbara d of Thomas West Ld Delamwarr), Mary m Owen
West and Anne m1 Walter Wadland and m2 Richard Lyne of Sussex


and by m2 Jane Vaux

HENRY [112 (1489-1532)]; dsp; Sir [136: knt 15 Mar 1511 by k FERDINAND,
at
Burgos, Castile; kt-bnrt 1513, ?at bat of Spurs 16 Aug; 24 Apr, inst 6
May
1526, KG] [112 s of Sir Rd; Served FERDINAND (r1474-1516) k of Castile &
Aragon
in war against the Moors; In 1513 k's standard-bearer in Fr campaign; In
1520
with Hy VIII at Field of Cloth of Gold and to Gravelines; With WOLSEY to
Calais; In 1515-22 master of the horse; In knight of the shire for Kent;
In 1529
signed articles against Wolsey, but remained his friend, though retaining
Hy
VIII's favour] In 1532/3 his heirs sold his manor at Buckland parish,
Kent
to RICHARD HILL (in 1545/6 held by JOHN TUFTON [?ancestor of Er of
THANET]
[JHG m1 Mary d of Sir ROBERT WOOTEN, m2 Mary d of Sir THOMAS BRYAN by
Margaret Bo
wsey, another eml has m Margaret (-1532) d of NICHOLAS CAREW (-3 Mar 1
1579/0 by Elizabeth Bryan (-c17 Jul 1546 London)]

From my Browne records; (VK has only daus 2 and 3 and gives them as issue
by
Anne Pympe) daughters are/include:

1)Philipa m Sir JOHN (1479-1556/7) of Firle s of WILLIAM GAGE (-1496)

2)Winfred/Fridiswide m Sir MATHEW BROWNE (-bur 1557) [my Sec H] of
Betchworth

3)Elizabeth m1 ISLEY m2 STAFFORD

4)[119 Mary m[1] Sir WILLIAM HAUTE/HAWTE of Bisshopsborne, Kent » (inc
Jane
m 1537 Sir THOMAS WYATT of Allington Castle, Kent] m2 FINCH


Note that my notes on these families are quit old. I have not checked in
Gen-Med for any recent additions etc

regards,

Adrian


Merilyn Pedrick

Re: A gruesome death

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 17 des 2005 01:13:01

-------Original Message-------

From: ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com
Date: 12/17/05 05:43:30
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: A gruesome death


Foulques III "Nerra", Comte 'd'Anjou 972-1040 had a wife named Elizabeth de
Vendome who died in 999 in Angers. The note I have beside her death says
boiled to death", which makes me feel rather queasy to say the least.




If I were your, I should avoid eating lobster. :-)

Adrian


No, I don't suppose it will ever taste the same again. I'd always have the
thought of poor Elizabeth either sitting red-faced in a pot, or at the stake
with her wedding dress flaring up around her. Ugh!
Merilyn

Gjest

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 des 2005 02:05:02

In a message dated 16/12/2005 22:02:40 GMT Standard Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

There is an extensive chapter on the Guildfords in "The Ancestry of Mary

Isaac" by Walter Goodwin Davis. From that a few details can be added on the
daughters of Sir Richard Guildford and Anne Pympe.

Elizabeth (said by Davis to be the eldest daughter) m. (1) Thomas Isley of
Sundridge (d. 1518) (by whom she had 10 sons and 2 daughters, based on the
effigy of her husband). She "is said to have married, and probably did,"
(2) William Stafford of Sutton-at-Home (will dated 1522) and (3) Sir Richard
Shirley of Westneston, Sussex (will dated 1540).

Mary (said by Davis to be the youngest daughter) m. (1) Christopher Kemp,
son of Sir Thomas Kemp of Ollentigh and nephew of John, Cardinal Kemp,
Archbishop of Canterbury; m. 92) Sir William Hawte of Bishopsbourne.
<<<<

Thanks for that. The above 1st marriage of Mary is shown in Visitation of
Kent 1574, which also shows her uncle as John, Cardinal Kemp, however from my
notes from Hasted's History of Kent, John, Cardinal Kemp must have been a few
generations earlier. John was born in Wye, Kent 1380 and died 1454, and
there is (or was when Hasted was writing) a M.I to him at Canterbury Cathedral.
There is an entry for him in the Oxford Concise DNB, and therefore
presumably in the new ODNB.

Adrian

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 17 des 2005 02:27:24

In message of 17 Dec, ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 16/12/2005 22:02:40 GMT Standard Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:


There is an extensive chapter on the Guildfords in "The Ancestry of
Mary Isaac" by Walter Goodwin Davis. From that a few details can be
added on the daughters of Sir Richard Guildford and Anne Pympe.

Elizabeth (said by Davis to be the eldest daughter) m. (1) Thomas
Isley of Sundridge (d. 1518) (by whom she had 10 sons and 2
daughters, based on the effigy of her husband). She "is said to
have married, and probably did," (2) William Stafford of
Sutton-at-Home (will dated 1522) and (3) Sir Richard Shirley of
Westneston, Sussex (will dated 1540).

Mary (said by Davis to be the youngest daughter) m. (1) Christopher
Kemp, son of Sir Thomas Kemp of Ollentigh and nephew of John,
Cardinal Kemp, Archbishop of Canterbury; m. 92) Sir William Hawte of
Bishopsbourne.

Thanks for that. The above 1st marriage of Mary is shown in
Visitation of Kent 1574, which also shows her uncle as John,
Cardinal Kemp, however from my notes from Hasted's History of Kent,
John, Cardinal Kemp must have been a few generations earlier. John
was born in Wye, Kent 1380 and died 1454, and there is (or was when
Hasted was writing) a M.I to him at Canterbury Cathedral. There is
an entry for him in the Oxford Concise DNB, and therefore
presumably in the new ODNB.


DNB2 has:

John Kemp b.1380-1. d. 22 Mar 1454, perhaps the second son of Thomas
Kemp who d. 1428 and Beatrice, dau. of Sir Thomas lewknor of Sussex.
The cardinal's brother, Sir Thomas had at least two sons, one was Sir
William, John's named heir, the other was Thomas apparently a cleric
whom he made bishop of London in 1448. John was born at Olantigh where
he founded a school.

(John your local libary and get on-line access to the DNB!)

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Why didn't Elizabeth I marry Mary Stuart off to Ivan the

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 des 2005 03:46:02

Dear Listers,
I`m not sure how the Catholic Mary and the Greek
(?Russian) Orthodox Ivan would have gotten along or how the English would have taken
to the idea of a Catholic Queen being paired with someone of a religion only
slightly better than a Muslim or a Jew as possible heirs to the throne, plus
there was King James VI of Scots, a Protestant who was about to marry a Danish
Princess. doubtless Ivan the Dread would have personably dispatched his rather
wimpy stepson if He`d gotten close enough.In any case dreadful Ivan would soon
have lost his head and Queen Mary as well unless She`d been forced to marry
either Arran or Argyll or perhaps Gordon.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 des 2005 05:42:02

In a message dated 12/16/05 9:50:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

<< 1)Philipa m Sir JOHN (1479-1556/7) of Firle s of WILLIAM GAGE (-1496) >>


If this death date for Sir John is truly meant to be 1556/7 I can fix that to
1556 without the 7
by the following primary documentation which proves Sir John was dead by 18
Jun 1556

Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Archive of Gage family of Firle
Catalogue Ref. SAS/G
Creator(s): Gage family of Firle, East Sussex
LETTERS PATENT, WARDSHIPS AND RECUSANCY PAPERS
FILE - Deed of covenant - ref. SAS/G19/12 - date: 18 Jun 1556
[from Scope and Content] Francis Inglefeld, kt, master of the court of Wards
and Liveries, and Robert Kelwaye, surveyor of the liveries, and Edward Gage,
kt, son and heir of John Gage, kt, late lord chamberlain of the household, in
regard to the value of the lands late JG to be delivered to EG, with schedule
attached

FILE - Special livery to Edward Gage, kt, of the manors and lands late John
Gage, kt, deceased - ref. SAS/G19/13 - date: 14 Nov 1556

Gjest

Re: Another marriage for Sir Anthony Poyntz of Iron Acton d

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 des 2005 14:34:36

In a message dated 17/12/2005 02:12:48 GMT Standard Time, tim@powys.org

writes:
DNB2 has:

John Kemp b.1380-1. d. 22 Mar 1454, perhaps the second son of Thomas
Kemp who d. 1428 and Beatrice, dau. of Sir Thomas lewknor of Sussex.
The cardinal's brother, Sir Thomas had at least two sons, one was Sir
William, John's named heir, the other was Thomas apparently a cleric
whom he made bishop of London in 1448. John was born at Olantigh where
he founded a school.

(John your local libary and get on-line access to the DNB!)

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org


<<<<<

Tim,

Thanks for that, but I really don't think my small local library would
appreciated being Johned. :-)

Kent visitations has Thomas and Beatrice Lewknor (dau of Sir Thomas Leukener
knt by d of Sir Thomas Hoo) as parents of cardinal John Kempe, but as
alluded to before the Kent visitation seems to have omitted a number of Kempe
generations, and I'm not sure which bits can be treated as accurate. I have
scribbled a note "From Hoo in CP this Beatrice would seem to be of a later date?"

regards,
Adrian

Gjest

Re: The Honor of Lancaster???

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 des 2005 23:33:32

Dear Emmett,
I guess the question is "is an honour less an honour if
less than an Earldom?" But wasn`t it an honour to be granted governance of a
barony, even a feudal barony ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: A gruesome death

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 des 2005 23:48:01

Dear Merilyn and Cris,
It sounds probable that Elizabeth of
Vendome could have suffered internal injuries, broken bones and a concussion
making resistance to her fate unlikely. If her Lover could have been dispatched
by Count Foulques III with inpunity He doubtless (unless so furious He killed
him on the spot) had him taken out naked, hung, drawn, beheaded and
quartered. also gruesome. If lucky enough to get away or perhaps preferring an easier
death or maybe even killing Count Foulques He could have asked for trial by
combat, which in all likelihood, would have been granted.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

butlergrt

Re: The Honor of Lancaster???

Legg inn av butlergrt » 18 des 2005 01:30:38

Good Evening James,
I would say so, but that is merely myself and also the question, what is
or was considered "an Honor" I have see it referred to earldoms and I have
seen it referred to baronies(implied). I only pointed out that it was a
feudal barony as someone in a previous post, made mention that Kendal
wasn't made a barony until I believe Richard I.

I am not sure and was hoping someone who knew more could make the
distinction, in later time periods it is obvious if you were Lord of the
manor it did'nt necesarrily make you a baron, but as in Williams de
Lancasters case, who held several manors were you merely lord of each
individual manor or were you a baron, feudal as opposed by later
creations? I do not know.

Further in baronies as other titles, if the king can giveth and the king
doth taketh away! what difference does it make if it was a feudal barony
or a barony of later creation? I do not know a concrete answer for this
but it would seem as though it wouldn't make much difference. Possibly
someone can elucidate.
Do you see or understand the rest of the post and the distinctions I was
tryinhg to make?
Best,
Emmett

Gjest

Re: The Honor of Lancaster???

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2005 03:21:47

Good Evening, Emmett,
i guess the point is that William de
Lancaster had to gain his surname in some fashion. the Question is, how ? As
others held the Earldom, One of the better possibities , other than there being
more than one honor called Lancaster, one which this family held is that They
were the Constables of Lancaster.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Derek Howard

Re: The Honor of Lancaster???

Legg inn av Derek Howard » 18 des 2005 10:38:34

An 'honor' or 'honour' was the estate or fief of a feudal baron or
'baro' (which later continued as an hereditary jurisdiction until the
19th century).

For further information on feudal baronies see
I J Sanders: "Feudal Military Service in England. A study of the
constitutional and militarty powers of the barones in medieval
England", Oxford, 1956;
I J Sanders: "English Baronies. A study of thei origin and descent
186-1327", Oxford, 1960; and
Sidney Painter: "Studies in the History of the English Feudal Barony",
John Hopkins Univ, 1943.

Sanders defined feudal baronies or 'baronia' as those fieds which paid
baronial relief of 100 pounds. No other definition is completely
satisfactory. He therefore divided his listings in English Baronies
into 'baronies' and 'probable baronies' where there was no clear
evidence of such relief being paid. Lancaster is listed (English
Baronies, p 126-7) only as a 'probable barony'.

It might help to give an outline of the early history of this barony
according to Sanders: the lands between the Ribble and the Mersey
together with the district called Amounderness north of the Ribble were
granted to Roger le Poitevin, fourth son of Roger, Earl of Shrewsbury,
by William the Conqueror. Domesday Book states that these lands were
inthe king's hands but Roger recovered them early in Rufus's reign. He
fixed his seat at Lancaster but lost his estates in 1102 when he aided
Robert of Beleme in rebellion.

The fief appears in the hands of Stephen of Blois circa 1115-18. During
the strife when Stephen became king his control of the honour was
indefinite. The earls of Chester and the kings of Scotland were rivals
to seize the lands. In 1149, at the Treaty if Carlisle, it was agreed
that the earl should have the territories south of the Ribble while
those north of the river were to go to Scotland. The death of the Earl
of Chester in 1153 and the minority of the heir ruined the scheme.
Henry of Anjou in the Treaty of Wallingford, Nov 1153, granted to
William of Blois, son of king Stephen, the lands which Stephen had held
before he became king. William seems to have gained possession, circa
1156-7, of the lands south of the Ribble but it was not until 1157 that
the Scots were forced to surrender control of the northern territories.
William dsp 1159, his widow Isabel seems to have held the honour until
1164 when it passed to the control of the crown.

Derek Howard

Gjest

Re: Gerard Gore, Alderman of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2005 16:45:03

Mjcar
As you have access to Alfred Beaven's book The Aldermen of London I wonder
if you would kindly check for me whether he writes about Gerard Gore 1516-1607,
whose son Sir John Gore became Mayor of London. Another son, Sir Paul Gore,
became an MP in Donegal, Ireland. Any item of information about the Gores at
that time would be most appreciated.
Kind regards,
Alexander Stewart

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Gerard Gore, Alderman of London

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 18 des 2005 17:10:38

In message of 18 Dec, AlexStewart17@aol.com wrote:

As you have access to Alfred Beaven's book The Aldermen of London I
wonder if you would kindly check for me whether he writes about
Gerard Gore 1516-1607,

He's there for 1574, see:

http://genealogy.patp.us/aldermen_1500.shm

whose son Sir John Gore became Mayor of London.

For 1624, see a less well referenced site:

http://www.steeljam.dircon.co.uk/lordmayorchrono.htm

Another son, Sir Paul Gore, became an MP in Donegal, Ireland. Any
item of information about the Gores at that time would be most
appreciated.

Can't helpt there, I fear.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Gerard Gore, Alderman of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2005 19:40:16

AlexStewart17@aol.com schrieb:

Mjcar
As you have access to Alfred Beaven's book The Aldermen of London I wonder
if you would kindly check for me whether he writes about Gerard Gore 1516-1607,
whose son Sir John Gore became Mayor of London. Another son, Sir Paul Gore,
became an MP in Donegal, Ireland. Any item of information about the Gores at
that time would be most appreciated.
Kind regards,
Alexander Stewart

Sorry, Alexander; I am unable to access my usual source at present. It
may be some weeks until I can. I'm happy to have a look once I am able
to again. Meanwhile, hopefully Tim's advice will have pointed you in
the right direction.

Regards

Michael

Gjest

Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2005 02:25:19

Sunday, 18 December, 2005


Hello All,

Part II of III.

Cheers,

John

___________________________________

Muriel (Dinham) Hastings: Ahnentafel (part II of III)



16 Sir Josce de Dinham.
Born bef 26 Feb 1274.[9],[43]
died on 30 Mar 1300, he was 26.[9]

knight, of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall[9]
2nd Lord Dinham

'He and w. Margaret hold Hydon and Clyst Manors, Devon, as 6 1/2 Kt.
Fees, late of Hugh de Curtenay, 24 Mar. 1292 (Inq.)' Knights I:296[44]

he evidently was going on pilgrimage in 1300, before approval of his
directions issued at Evesham, 25 March 1301:
' Letter for Joceus de Dynham, gone beyond seas, nominating Peter de
Fishacre his attorney for one year. ' [CPR 1292-1301, p. 581[32]]

The inquisitions post mortem for Sir Josce ['Joyce de Dynham'] include:
' Cornwall. Inq. 20 June, 29 Edw. I [1301].
Cardynan. The manor...including two birds' worth 6d. at Michaelmas,
the pasture of Greneburgh, land in Treuerdre, lands held by the prior of
Trewerdray and 6s. 8d. rent for the moor of Fouwy, held of the king in
chief, together with the manors of Botardel and Douneghny in the same
county, by the service of 32 little knights' fees.'[45] [cited in brief
by Dugdale, Baronage of England[43]]

Assignment [ " to Thomas, bishop of Exeter, Hugh, abbot of Hayles, William
de Bereford and Walter de Aylesbury, executors of the will of Edmund, earl
of Cornwall, the king's kinsman, in part payment of the king's indebtedness
to the earl of 9,480 1/2 marks 10 1/4d.," ] of custody of his lands during
the minority of his heir, made at Peebles [Scot.] 2 Aug. 1301:
' from 8 September next, and during the minority of the heirs, of two parts
of the lands late of Joyce de Dynham, tenant in chief, together with the
marriage of the heirs, worth 2,000 marks; saving to the king knights' fees,
&c., as above.
By K[ing]., on the information of W., bishop of Coventry and Lichfield.
Mandate in pursuance to Walter de Gloucestre, escheator beyond Trent.
Mandate to Margery, late the wife of the said Joyce, to deliver the body
of the heir of the said Joyce, which is said to be in her custody, to the
said executors to be married. ' [CPR 1292-1301, p. 603[32]]

cf. CP IV:372[9]
Richardson p. 284[9]

bef 24 Mar 1292 when Sir Josce was 18, he married Margaret de Hydon.[44]


17 Margaret de Hydon.
died on 15 May 1357.[9]
Buried in St. Katherine's chapel, Hemyock, Devon.[42]

had the manor of Hemyock, Devon as her maritagium or inheritance[46]

grant of gift of the marriage of Margaret de Hydon, heiress of Sir Richard
de Hydon, by Hugh de Courtenay to Sir Oliver de Dinham, dated 12 Apr 1288
(Monday before Sts Tiburtius and Valerian, 16 Edw [I]); at Notewill [Nutwell
Court] - A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/17 - AR/50], Dinham: AR/37/5[3]

she and her husband Josce de Dinham held ' Hydon and Clyst
Manors, Devon, as 6 1/2 Kt. Fees, late of Hugh de
Curtenay, 24 Mar. 1292 (Inq.)' Knights I:296[44]

'Thomas de Whiteleye was later instituted as rector of Hemyock in 1321,
patron Margaret de Dynham (Register of Bishop Stapledon, 1308-26 p. 221). '
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121][3]

' Lady Margaret who was wife of Sir John de Dyneham, knight ',
gave the manor of Bodardel, Cornwall to her grandson John, Lord
Dinham under Agreement for adjustment of dower, 29 Mar 1343
[Saturday after Annunciation, 23 Edw III ]
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/1/1 - AR/1/527] , AR/1/397[3]

Note: record of a petition to the Pope, Jul 1346, concerns Margaret de
Botreaux, her daughter-in-law, as it identifies her 'legitimate sons,
John de Dynham, knight, and Oliver de Dynham ' [Papal Petition I:114[21],
cites f. 117]. Margaret de Hydon's son Sir John had died in 1332, so this
could not have been her petition.

'Dame Margaret de Uredale [sic]', held the manor and advowson of Moreleigh,
1350; 1354 [F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537, cites Episcopal Registers
of Exeter[47]]

'In the late 13th Century, Margaret Hidon inherited the Manors of Hemyock
and Clayhidon from her father Sir Richard Hidon, and the Manors of
Morleigh and Storridge from her mother Isabel (née Fisacre).'[49]
[cf. F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537, re: manor and advowson of
Moreleigh[47]]

cf. CP IV:372[9]
Richardson p. 284[42]


18 William de Botreaux.
Born bef 1275.[50]
died ca 1342, he was 67.[9]

of Boscastle, Cornwall

b. before 1275 (acc. to Maclean, p. 634, his father died in 1302,
" succeeded by his son and heir William (VI), then aged
27 and more."[50])

Charters for a market ( Thur ) and fair (vfm, Assumption - 15 Aug) at
Lelant, Cornwall granted by King Edward II to William son of William
de Botereux, 25 Aug 1296: 'To be held at the manor '
(CChR, 1257–1300, p. 465).[15]

assessment of a feudal aid, for the hundred of Kynemerdeston, Somerset in
1303:
' Willelmus Botreaux et Johannes Page tenent un. f. in Babington de Thoma
Appadam [ap Adam]. ' [Feudal Aids IV:310[22]]

' Wm. de Botriaus ', witness to a grant by Henry de Bodrugan, dated at
Bodrugan, 28 January 1306 [ A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Edgcumbe of
Cotehele and Mount Edgcumbe [ME/1 - ME/1539], ME/642[3]]

Charters for a market ( Wed ) and fair (vfm, James the Apostle - 25 Jul) at
Boscastle, Cornwall granted by King Edward II to William son of William
de Botereux, 16 Aug 1312: 'To be held at the manor ' (CChR, 1300–26,
p. 194).[15]

F (Prescriptive) feria recorded 1302, held by William de Botereus (QW,
p. 108). William successfully claimed that his ancestors had held the fair
from time out of mind. '[15]

' William de Botriaux , witness together with Henry de Champernoun and
others to a Lease for term of 5 years [grant of wardship of land during
minority] by John de Wylyngton, lord of Conerton, to Sir Thomas
l'Ercedekne 'by reason of the minority of the son of John de Arundel ',
dated at Launceston, Friday after Trinity, 6 Edw II (15 Jun 1313) [A2A,
Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/4/1 - AR/4/1003], AR/4/347[3]]

Genealogics #I00177716[4]

cf. CP I:241[9]


20 Sir Hugh de Courtenay.
died on 23 Dec 1340, he was 64.[20]
Born on 14 Sep 1276.[51],[9]
Buried in Cowick priory, near Exeter, Devon.[51]
Occupation: Earl of Devon.

of Oakhampton [Okehampton], Devon (succeeded father 28 Feb 1291/92).
Succeeded cousin Isabel, Countess of Aumale and Devon, in Reviers estates
not then alienated, 10 Nov 1293.

' Hughe de Courteneye ', knight, serving with the army of King Edward I
in Scotland; fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298
: his arms are recorded as
' Or three torteaux a label azure ' (Falkirk Roll H115[52])

Summoned to Parliament from 6 Feb 1298/99 to 24 Jul 1334 by writs directed
'Hugoni de Curtenay', whereby held to have become Lord Courtenay.

assessment of a feudal aid, for the hundred of Kynemerdeston, Somerset in
1303:
' Hugo de Curtenay tenet de domino rege i. c. di. f. in Hemyngton. '
[Feudal Aids IV:310[22]]

acquired lands in Woodhuish, Devon for his son Robert (who
evidently d.v.p.; then were given to son Thomas):
' Hugh [de] Curteney ', deforciant in a fine of 8 Edw II [Trinity term, 1315
]:
Final concord between Thomas de Cyrencestr' and Emma his wife,
claimants (1)-(2) and Hugh [de] Curteney, deforciant (3) :
" (1)-(2), through John le Palmere in (2)'s place, against (3), concerning
1 messuage, 1 mill, 2 carrucates of land, 3 acres of meadow, 6 acres
of wood and 1 lb of cummin rent, in Wodehywish, Lidewyston
[Boohay, in Brixham parish] and Reftercumbe [Raddicombe, in
Brixham parish]. (1) acknowledged them to be the right of (3),
as by (1)'s gift; and for this (3) granted them to (1)-(2), to hold
of the chief lords of the fee, by services belonging, during their
lives; with remainder, after their deaths, to Robert son of (3)
and his heirs of body; in default of such heirs, remainder to
Thomas, Robert's brother, and his heirs.
{ Found stuck to 19th-century wrapper with AR/1/642. }
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121], AR/1/643[3]

~ Robert d. without heirs, and the lands of Woodhuish were inherited
by Thomas de Courtenay as remainderman [see #10 above]

' Hugh de Courteneye ', summoned for military service 20 February
1324/5 - to appear at Portsmouth 'mounted and armed' - in France, by
letters under privy seal of King Edward II [ Foedera, pp. 591-2[34]]

By letters patent 22 Feb 1334/35, King Edward III declared him Earl of
Devon[9]

In 1292 when Sir Hugh was 15, he married Agnes de Saint John.[9]


21 Agnes de Saint John.
died on 11 Jun 1345.[20]
Buried in Cowick, near Exeter.[51]


22 Sir John de Moels.
Born bef 17 Sep 1304.[44],[9]
died in d.s.p.m. bef 21 Aug 1337, he was 32.[9]
Occupation: Lord Moels.

of Maperton and North Cadbury, Somerset, King's Carswell, Diptford and
Langford, Devon and Over Worton, co. Oxon[9]
4th Lord Moels (succeeded brother Roger, 3rd Lord)[9]

b. aft 8 May 1302 [King Edward I presented to the living at Maperton,
Somerset 8 May 1323, in minority of the heir of Roger de Moels, d. 1316]
and before 17 Sept 1304 [livery of the lands of Roger de Moels to his
brother John, 17 Sept 1325 - Close Rolls] - Knights III:161[44]

Sir John married Joan Lovel.


23 Joan Lovel.

cf. CP VIII:205 [sub _Lovel_ ][9]


24 William de Montagu.
died on 18 Oct 1319 in Gascony.[39]
Occupation: Lord Montagu.

of Shipton Montague, Somerset

served in the siege of Stirling, May 1304
knighted with Prince Edward, 22 May 1306
2nd Lord Montagu

cf. CP IX: 80-2[9]

seneschal of Gascony, 20 Nov 1318-18 Oct 1319 (CP IX:81-2)[9]

aft 20 Jun 1292 William married Elizabeth de Montfort.[9]


25 Elizabeth de Montfort.
died in Aug 1354.[9]
Buried in Priory of St. Frideswide [Christ Church], Oxford.[9]

called Elizabeth in her inquisitions p.m. (CP V:582-3, notes, sub
Furnivalle)[9]

' In her deed of 1348 she ordained prayers for (among others) her parents,
her children John de Montagu (d. young), William, late Earl of Salisbury,
Simon, late Bishop of Ely (d. 1345), Edward de Montagu, Alice de Aubeney,
Lady Mary Cogan, Elizabeth, prioress of Halliwell, Hawise Bavent, Maud,
abbess of Barking, Isabel, nun of Barking (later abbess), for her 2nd
husband and for her kinsman Piers de Limesey (Cartul. of St. Frideswide,
vol. ii, pp. 4, 9). ' [CP IX:82-3, note (f)[9]]

she m. lstly William de Montagu
2ndly Sir Thomas de Furnival[9]

'Elizabeth de Mountague', petition for the lands of Worksop, Aug 1354 or
later [dated erroneously ca. 1352]:
SC 8/48/2356
Petitioners: Thomas de Furnival Addressees: King and council Places
mentioned: Worksop, [Nottinghamshire]; Sherwood Forest, [Nottinghamshire]
Other people mentioned: Elizabeth de Montague Nature of request: The
petitioner states that Elizabeth de Mountague died seised of the manor
of Worksop with the Park (near Sherwood Forest) in dower for the term
of her life of the heritage of the petitioner.
[c. 1352][27]


26 Sir William de Grandison.
Born in Lake Neufchatel, Suisse.[39]
died on 27 Jun 1335.[39]
Buried in Dore Abbey. Occupation: Lord Grandison.

knight, of Lambourn, co. Berks., and Ashperton and Eaton, co. Hereford
received from brother (Othon) the castle and town of Kilfeacle, the manor
of Kilsheelan and the town of Clonmel 16 July 1290
received charter for the manor of Minsterworth, Glocs. from Edmund, Earl
of Lancaster 27 Dec 1282

Governor of Jersey and Guernsey, 1290. seigneur de Grandison (Neufchatel)

' William de Granson ', knight, serving with the army of King Edward I
in Scotland; fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298
: his arms are recorded as
' Paly of six argent and azure on a bend gules three eagles
displayed or ' (Falkirk Roll H90[52])

summoned to Parliament from 6 Feb 1298/99 to 10 Oct 1325 by writs
directed 'Willelmo de Grandisono', whereby held to have become Lord
Grandison[9]

his IPM included the manor of Lambourn, co. Berks (R. Bevan, citing
CIPM v.7 no.676[53])

abt 1285 Sir William married Sybil de Tregoz.


27 Sybil de Tregoz.
Born in 1270 in Ewyas, co. Hereford.[39]
died on 12 Oct 1334, she was 64.[39]
Buried in Dore Abbey.

2nd daughter and coheiress.

Lands of Sir John Tregoz ordered to be divided between his heirs,
26 Nov 1300[9] [her portion evidently included Lambourn, co. Berks
or a moiety thereof][54]

she inherited half of the barony of Ewyas Harold, co. Hereford[55]

probably 2nd wife of William de Grandison[56]


28 Ralph de Monthermer.
Born abt 1262.[1]
died on 5 Apr 1325, he was 63.[9]
Buried in Grey Friars', Salisbury.[9]
Occupation: Lord Monthermer.

Earl of Gloucester and Hertford (summoned to Parliament as such, Aug 1297)
earldoms passed to stepson, Gilbert de Clare following death of wife Joan,
23 Apr 1307

' Rauf de Monthermer, conte de Gloucestre ', knight, serving with the
army of King Edward I in Scotland; fought at Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298
: his arms are recorded as
' Or an eagle displayed vert ' (Falkirk Roll H98[52])

' Radulphus de Monte Hermerij Comes Gloucestr & Hertford ',
third of the barons who sealed the
Barons' Letter to the Pope, February 1301 (in response to the Scots letter
to Boniface VIII in 1298, defying the claimed English superiority) following
the Parliament at Lincoln, 13-20 Jan 1300/1[57]

summoned to Parliament as Lord Monthermer;

fought at Battle of Bannockburn, 24/5 June 1314 (captured by Scots, released
by King Robert) [1],[58]

he m. 1stly (as 2nd husband) Joan 'of Acre',
2ndly (as 3rd husband) Isabel le Despenser[9]

cf. CP IX:140-142[9]

In Jan 1297 when Ralph was 35, he married Joan 'of Acre' of England.


29 Joan 'of Acre' of England.
Born in 1272 in Acre, kingdom of Jerusalem.[1]
died in Clare, Suffolk on 23 Apr 1307, she was 35.[1]
Buried in Augustinian priory, Clare.

Countess of Gloucester and Hertford (2nd wife of Gilbert de Clare)

she m. lstly Gilbert de Clare,
2ndly Ralph de Monthermer[9]


30 Piers de Braose.
died bef 7 Feb 1311.[42],[9]

of Tetbury, co. Gloucester & c.[9]

cf. Richardson p. 814[42]

aft 6 Jun 1300 Piers married Agnes.[42]


31 Agnes.

possibly Agnes de Clifford

cf. Richardson, p. 814[42]


[ to be continued - see Part III ]

Gjest

Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2005 02:28:45

Sunday, 18 December, 2005


Hello All,

Part III of IV [originally intended as last of III].

Cheers,

John


___________________________________

Muriel (Dinham) Hastings: Ahnentafel (part III of IV)


32 Sir Oliver de Dinham.
Born bef 26 Dec 1234.[9],[43]
died on 26 Feb 1298, he was 63.[9]
Buried in Church of the Black Friars, Exeter.[51]
Occupation: Lord Dinham.

knt., of Hartland, Nutwell and Ilsington, Devon, Buckland Denham,
Somerset and Cardinham, Cornwall

purchased the manors of Nutwell and Harpford, Devon from the monks of Dinan,
1273 [Chope p. 424[26], cites Les Dinan, 175]

' Oliver de Dynam ', had charters for a Tuesday market, and fair (to be held
at the Feast of St. Necton, 17 June) at Hartland, granted 3 July 1281 by
King Edward I, ' to Oliver de Dynam. To be held at the manor of Herctone '
(CChR, 1257–1300, p. 253) [On 9 May 1393, K Ric II confirmed to John Dynham,
kinsman and heir of Oliver Dynham, now tenant of the manor, the grant of a
market to Oliver Dynham in 1281 (CPR, 1391–6, p. 262).'][15][cf. inspeximus
and confirmation, CPR 16 Ric II, Part III, pp. 262-3[10]]

' Sir Oliver de Dinham ', witness (together with Sir Ralph Pippard and others)
to a charter of Edmund, earl of Cornwall to the brethren of the church at
Esserugge, confirmed at Swanston, 5 Nov 1285 [CCR 13 Edw I II:324-5, mem
2[60]]

' Oliver de Dynham ', had charters for a fair (to be held at the Feast of
St. Andrew, 30 Nov) at Hartland, granted 20 Feb 1286 by King Edward I,
' to Oliver de Dynham. To be held at the manor ' (CChR, 1257–1300, p. 329)
[On 9 May 1393, K Ric II confirmed to John Dynham, kinsman and heir of
Oliver Dynham, now tenant of the manor, the grant of a fair to Oliver Dynham
in 1286 (CPR, 1391–6, p. 262).'][15]

'Oliver de Dinant ', knight
: his arms are recorded ca. 1285 as
' Gules a fess indented ermine ' (St. George's Roll E126[61])

Double (mutual) grant and quitclaim dated St Nicholas, 16 Edw I [6 Dec 1287],
between Desiderata who was wife of Peter Stoel (1) and
Oliver de Dynam (2):
Bipartite indenture: (1) to (2), grant and quitclaim of all her right
in the lands and tenements of Scepwasse and Oppechote, with
all homages, rents and services, etc., of free and bond men of
Scepwasse [ Sheepwash ] and Oppekote [Upcott, in
Sheepwash parish], and the homage, rent and services of Robert
de Stokhaye, John de Steueneston, Walter de Kotingechote and
William de Sordechote [Swaddicott, in Sheepwash parish], and
all appurtenances and escheats from them; for (2) and his heirs
to hold of (1) freely and hereditarily for ever; rent to (1) 1 rose
at the Nativity of St John Baptist, for all services, suits and
demands; warranty.
For this, (2) has granted and quitclaimed to (1) all his right
in the demesne of Oppecote, and all his right by gift of Robert
Cnoel of the tenements currently held by Joan de Horton (que
Johanna de Horton tenet) as dower in Oppecote, Scepwasse
[ Sheepwash ], Esse and Braworth'; (2) has also granted to
(1) and her heirs for ever the land currently held by Joel de
Badek'weye, with his services, and the land currently held by
Richard de Oppecote and the relict of John the Smith (fabri);
rent to (2) 13s silver yearly at 4 terms, for all service and
demand except foreign and royal service; warranty.
Witnesses: Sir Robert de Dynam, Sir Peter de Fissacre,
Sir Peter de Chalouns, Sir Ralph son of Richard, Sir Richard
de Poltimore, knights, William le Graunt, Baldwin de
Specote, Richard Coffin, Philip Giffard.
Slits for tag of seal; [medieval] "Schepwas".
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121], AR/1/627[3] [Oliver de Dinham called 'Sir
George Oliver, Monasticon Dioecesis Exoniensis de Dynam' in error -
insertion of name of noted author, w/ 'Oliver' in his name]

had grant of gift of the marriage of Margaret de Hydon, heiress of Sir Richard
de Hydon, dated 12 Apr 1288 (Monday before Sts Tiburtius and Valerian,
16 Edw [I]); at Notewill [Nutwell Court, Woodbury]:
Grant of gift of marriage:
Hugh de Curteney, lord of Ok'ton = (1)
Sir Oliver de Dynam = (2)
(1) to (2), for £100 silver, the right to give Margaret, daughter and heir
of Sir Richard de Hydon, in marriage, until she is of full age; warranty.
[Witnesses :] Sir Henry de Ralegh, Sir Richard de Poltimore, Sir Robert
de Dynam, Sir Peter de Chalons, Sir Thomas Franceys, Sir Thomas Gona, Sir
Roger de Logys.
Seal. [18th century?] Grant from Hugh Courtenay lord of Occkhampton unto
sr Olliver of the marriage of Margaret daughter and heiress of Richard
Heydon for 100 li. silver.
National Register of Archives. List C, no 325.' [A2A, Cornwall Record
Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/17 - AR/50], Dinham: AR/37/5[3]
]

entered into agreement with his stepson Sir Hugh de Courtenay re: his rights
to the dower of his deceased wife, Lady Isabel (de Vere) de Courtenay,
7 Jan 1290/1 [CP IV:323[9] says in error, she was 'living Feb. 1298/9'][62]:
' Resolution of dispute dated Morrow of Epiphany, 19 Edw I (7 Jan 1290/1):
Sir Hugh de Cortenay = (1)
Sir Oliver de Dynham = (2)
Resolution of disagreements between (1), heir and principal
executor of testament of Sir John de Cortenay (deceased),
plaintiff, and (2), executor of the testament of Lady Isabel
de Cortenay (deceased), concerning debts touching both testaments,
towards the lord king or anyone else, and concerning purchases of
clearance (excirpamenti) and waste, houses (domorum), parks,
woods, and all tenements or men which (2) and Lady Isabel,
(1)'s mother, held of (1)'s inheritance as dower in Lady Isabel's
name, thus. (2) is bound to (1) in £100, to be paid at dates to
be arranged, for all debts and purchases touching the testaments
or wastes;
Concerning the remainder of (1)'s petition, both (1) and (2) are
subject to the order of Peter [Quinel], Bishop of Exeter, and of
the dean of Exeter, thus. Whatever sum the bishop and dean shall
decide that (2) should pay to (1) in excess of the said £100, he
is bound to (1) in that exactly; and if they decide nothing, then
he is not bound in any further sum. With this reservation, that
(1) shall allow to (2) as part payment whatever he shall receive
from the goods of Lady Isabel through the hands of her executors,
and whatever else would rightly be assigned to (2).
(1) releases to (2) and his co-executors, on behalf of himself and
his co-executors of testament of Sir John de Cortenay, the said
actions and all others which might arise from that testament, and
are bound to indemnify (2) and his co-executors as regards it.
(2) binds himself and his heirs to make the payment and keep the
agreement. (2) is also bound to restore to (1) the value of all
autumn works which he had after the death of Lady Isabel in her
dower lands for collecting corn and helping.
Seal [broken]. [Contemporary?] "Scriptum allocat' solutori et
soluendo". [A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/17 - AR/50], AR/37/6[3]]

summoned to Parliament from 24 Jun 1295, writ directed 'Olivere de Dynham',
held thereby to have become Lord Dinham[9]
2nd husband of Isabel de Vere, widow of John de Courtenay(d. 3 May 1274);
m. before 24 Jan 1276/77

cf. CP IV:323[9]

bef 24 Jan 1276 when Sir Oliver was 41, he married Isabel de Vere.[9]


33 Isabel de Vere.
died bef 7 Jan 1290.[62],[3],[9]
Buried in Church of the Black Friars, Exeter.[51]

she m. lstly Sir John de Courtenay,
2ndly Sir Oliver de Dinham[9]
__________________________________

her identification as the mother of Sir Josce de Dinham was
shown by Douglas Richardson:
'A few years after the death of Sir Oliver de Dynham, his son, Josce's
son and heir, John de Dynham, came of age. This took place in 1316.
Shortly before John obtained livery of his father's lands, Hugh de
Courtenay (grandson of Isabel de Vere) wrote a letter to William de
Airmyn dated c. September 1316, in which he requested assistance for
his kinsman, John de Dynham, now of age, in obtaining seisin of his
lands [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence, Lists and Indexes,
No. XV, reprinted 1968, pg. 552; cf. Index to Ancient Correspondence
of the Chancery and the Exchequer, 1 (Lists and Indexes, Supplementary
Series, No. XV) (reprinted 1969), pp. 308, 351]. The King
subsequently took John de Dynham's homage, and he had livery of his
father's lands, 18 October 1316.'[33]

The relationship between John de Dinham and Hugh de Courtenay was that
of first cousins (of the half-blood):

Sir John de Courtenay = Isabel de Vere = Sir Oliver de Dinham
of Okehampton I d. bef I of Hartland, Devon
d. 3 May 1273 I 7 Jan 1290/91 I d. 26 Feb 1298/99
___________________I I___
I I
Hugh de Courtenay = Eleanor le Sir Josce = Margaret
d. b 28 Feb 1291/92 I Despenser de Dinham I de Hydon
________________I d. 30 Mar 1300/01 I
I ___________I
I I
Sir Hugh de = Agnes de Sir John de Dinham = Margaret de
Courtenay St. John d. bef 15 Apr 1332 Botreaux
Earl of Devon
d. 1340

previously, based on chronology in CP, Isabel de Vere was not identified
as the mother of Josce de Dinham[9]
______________________________________

her dower included Newton Poppleford, Devon and 'Aylebeare': concerning
which, her son Hugh de Courtenay had evidently contested her rights.
' In 1281–2, Hugh de Curtenay stated that a market at ‘Nywanton’ had been
held by his ancestors as part of the barony of Okehampton, but that neither
he nor Oliver de Dynham and Isabella his wife, who were holding ‘Aylebere’
and ‘Nyeweton’ in dower of the inheritance of Hugh de Curtenay, now claimed
a market at ‘Nyweton’ (QW, pp. 171, 178).'[15]

she d. before 7 Jan 1290/1 [CP IV:323[9] says in error, she was
'living Feb. 1298/9'][62]:
' Resolution of dispute dated Morrow of Epiphany, 19 Edw I (7 Jan 1290/1):
Sir Hugh de Cortenay = (1)
Sir Oliver de Dynham = (2)
Resolution of disagreements between (1), heir and principal
executor of testament of Sir John de Cortenay (deceased),
plaintiff, and (2), executor of the testament of Lady Isabel
de Cortenay (deceased), concerning debts touching both testaments,
towards the lord king or anyone else, and concerning purchases of
clearance (excirpamenti) and waste, houses (domorum), parks,
woods, and all tenements or men which (2) and Lady Isabel,
(1)'s mother, held of (1)'s inheritance as dower in Lady Isabel's
name, thus. (2) is bound to (1) in £100, to be paid at dates to
be arranged, for all debts and purchases touching the testaments
or wastes;
Concerning the remainder of (1)'s petition, both (1) and (2) are
subject to the order of Peter [Quinel], Bishop of Exeter, and of
the dean of Exeter, thus. Whatever sum the bishop and dean shall
decide that (2) should pay to (1) in excess of the said £100, he
is bound to (1) in that exactly; and if they decide nothing, then
he is not bound in any further sum. With this reservation, that
(1) shall allow to (2) as part payment whatever he shall receive
from the goods of Lady Isabel through the hands of her executors,
and whatever else would rightly be assigned to (2).
(1) releases to (2) and his co-executors, on behalf of himself and
his co-executors of testament of Sir John de Cortenay, the said
actions and all others which might arise from that testament, and
are bound to indemnify (2) and his co-executors as regards it.
(2) binds himself and his heirs to make the payment and keep the
agreement. (2) is also bound to restore to (1) the value of all
autumn works which he had after the death of Lady Isabel in her
dower lands for collecting corn and helping.
Seal [broken]. [Contemporary?] "Scriptum allocat' solutori et
soluendo". [A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/17 - AR/50], AR/37/6[3]]


34 Sir Richard de Hydon.
died bef 12 Apr 1288.[3],[44]

of Clyst Hidon, Clayhidon and Hemyock, Devon[9]

'Mackham and Madford (in Hemyock) appear as a single holding in the IPM of
Richard de Hidon, a descendant of Robert Foliot, who held a share of
Hemyock (IPM, ii, no 590; OJR, Supp, p39). '[46]

' Sir Richard de Hidon ', witness (together with others) to the gift of
pasture and watering rights by Hugh de Peuerel, lord of Taleton to Robert
le Engleys, 1 Aug 1282 - A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of
Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121], Talaton manor: AR/1/1047[3]

d. before 12 April 1288:
' Grant of gift of marriage, dated Monday before Sts Tiburtius and Valerian,
16 Edw [I]); at Notewill [Nutwell Court, Woodbury], 12 April 1288:
Hugh de Curteney, lord of Ok'ton = (1)
Sir Oliver de Dynam = (2)
(1) to (2), for £100 silver, the right to give Margaret, daughter and heir
of Sir Richard de Hydon, in marriage, until she is of full age; warranty.
[Test:] Sir Henry de Ralegh, Sir Richard de Poltimore, Sir Robert de
Dynam, Sir Peter de Chalons, Sir Thomas Franceys, Sir Thomas Gona, Sir Roger
de Logys.
Seal. [18th century?] Grant from Hugh Courtenay lord of Occkhampton
unto sr Olliver of the marriage of Margaret daughter and heiress of Richard
Heydon for 100 li. silver.
Related Material = National Register of Archives. List C, no 325. '
[A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/17 - AR/50], AR/37/5[3]]

[ he was previously known to hav d. bef 24 March 1291/2 :
his daughter Margaret and her husband Josce de Dinham then
held ' Hydon and Clyst Manors, Devon, as 6 1/2 Kt. Fees,
late of Hugh de Curtenay, 24 Mar. 1292 (Inq.)' [Knights I:296[44]]

Sir Richard married Isabel de Fissacre.


35 Isabel de Fissacre.
died aft 1327.[47],[3]

'Isabella de Fissacre', held the manor and advowson of Moreleigh, 1328
[F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537, cites Episcopal Registers of Exeter[47]]

' Isabel de Fyssacre ', patron of the church of Morleigh:
" William de Wynkeaultone, instituted to parish of Morleghe
[Devon] in 1328 (patron Isabel de Fyssacre), Reg. Grandisson, III,
1264 " - A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and
Trerice [AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121], AR/1/631 dated 25 Aug 1346[3]


36 William de Botreaux.
Born bef 1242.[50]
died bef 25 Aug 1296, he was 54.[15]

of Boscastle, Cornwall and Babington, Somerset

succeeded his father before 7 Oct 1285:
Grant to William de Botereus dated at Winchester, 7 Oct 1285:
' Grant to William de Botereus, and his heirs, of free warren in all his
demesne lands in Babinton and Kinemeresdon, co. Somerset, and in Mouland,
co. Devon: grant also of a yearly fair at his manor of Babinton on the
vigil, the feast and the morrow of St. Margaret the Virgin. ' [CCR 13
Edw I, II:324, mem. 2[60]; dates are 19-21 July acc. to A2A, Somerset
Archive and Record Service: Miscellaneous Somerset documents, DD\X\SKG/26[3]
(cites CChR, 1257-1300, p. 324)[15]]

' William de Botereux ', identified as father of the grantee of charters for
a market and fair at Boscastle, dated 16 Aug 1312 and at Lelant, Cornwall
dated 25 Aug 1296[15]

Genealogics #I00177715[4]

William married Dionisia de Champernoun.


37 Dionisia de Champernoun.

Re: Dionisia de Champernoun and her parentage, Ronny Bodine wrote:
' Vivian (p. 160) names John, Reginald and Henry [but not William] as
sons of Sir Henry de Campo Arnulphi and his wife Dionisia, although this
writer
believes he misidentified another John with the priest of the same name. In
addition, Vivian named two daughters, Dionisia, wife of Sir William Bottreaux
and Margaret, wife of Otho Bodrigan. Sir William Bottreaux, of Worthevale,
Penhale, Crackhampton and Botylet, co. Cornwall was born in 1242 and died 1302
(Trigg, 1: 634). Pole (Devon, p. 427) reports he held Cadbury and
Stockleigh-English in free-marriage with Dionisia, but the evidence for this
has not been found. In fact, Stockleigh-English was held by William
Champernoun (viz. no. 10) who presented there in May 1344.'[63]


40 Sir Hugh de Courtenay.
died on 28 Feb 1291, he was 39.[9]
Born on 25 Mar 1251.[51]
Buried in Cowick priory, Devon.[51]

baron of Oakhampton, Devon[9]

also held Newton Poppleford, Devon (part of Aylesbury), which his
mother had in dower, ca 1281/2 [QW, pp. 171, 178)[15]]

His IPM (1292) makes reference to his having held a fair. He had made claims
earlier (noted above) that no fair had been held by himself or his mother,
' However, in 1292 Hugh de Curtenay was holding a fair at Aylesbeare,
possibly associated with ‘the township of la Nywaton’. Profits of a fair
at the manor of Aylesbeare were noted in 1292 (CIPM, iii, nos. 31, 65).'[15]

Sir Hugh married Eleanor le Despenser.


41 Eleanor le Despenser.
died on 30 Sep 1328.[9]


42 John de Saint John. John died bef 30 Sep 1302.[9]

knight, of Basing, Hants.
one of the magnates en route with Edward I in France and Spain (1286).

One of the Auditors on behalf of King Edward at the trial of the claims
to the crown of Scotland, 1292

seneschal of Aquitaine 1294; captured by French forces ca. 1296, released
in 1297[9]

his arms: ' Argent on a chief gules two mullets or '
[the arms of his son ' Johan de Sein Johan, le fiz ', knight,
recorded in the Falkirk Roll of those who
fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298, as ' Argent
on a chief gules two mullets or a label azure ' (Falkirk Roll H106[52])]
_____________________


he evidently has a genealogical link to King Edward I of England and
his brother Edmund. Douglas Richardson wrote,
' Dear Newsgroup:

I've located two references in the medieval source, Foedera, in which
Edmund, Earl of Lancaster (younger son of King Henry III of England)
refers to Sir John de St. John as his "cousin" [see abstracts below].
I haven't made an attempt to determine the exact nature of the kinship
involved, but I presume it comes through John de St. John's maternal
grandmother, Milicent (de Gournay) de Cantelowe. Milicent de Gournay
has many descendants, among them being Milicent de Cantelowe, wife of
Eudes la Zouche, of recent topic here on the newsgroup.

If anyone has any particulars which might identity the kinship between
Earl Edmund and John de St. John, I'd appreciate it if they would post
their information here on the newsgroup. Thanks!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Foedera, 1 (1816): 793
Available online at Anglo-Norman On-line
http://and4.anglo-norman.net:8082/cgi-b ... ml&loc=793

A.D.1294
Esmon, filz du Roy Henri d'Engleterre, a son chier cousin mon sire
Johan de Seint Johan chevaler, tenant en la duchie de Guyenne, le lieu
de nostre treschere seigneur & frere, mon seigneur Edward, par la
grace de DIEU, Roy d'Engleterre, seignur d'Irland, & due de Guyenn' &
a sire Johan de Havering chevaler, seneschall de la dite duchie, & a
tous les autres seneschaus du dist nostre seigneur le Roy & duc, es
parties & es terres de la mesme duchie, saluz.

Sachiez que nous avons receheu, & veu les lettres overtes du dit
nostre seigneur le Roy, en la forme que s'ensuit:

Edward, par la grace de DIEU, Roy d'Engleterre, seignur d'Irland, &
due de Guyenne, a touz ceux qui cestes presentes lettres verront &
orront, saluz.

- - - - - - - - - -

Foedera, 1 (1816): 794
Available online at Anglo-Norman On-line
http://and4.anglo-norman.net:8082/cgi-b ... exts/foede
ra1.xml%26amp;amp;target=794

A.D.1294
Esmon, filz du Roy Henri d'Engleterre, a son chier cousin, monsire
Johan de Saint Johan ehivaler, tenant en la duchee d'Acquitaine le
lieu de nostre treschere seigneur & frere Edward, par la grace de
DIEU, Roy d'Engleterre, seigneur d'Irland, & duc d'Aquitaine, saluz.

Les lettres overtes du dit nostre seigneur & frere nous avons receves,
& entendues en ceste forme:

Edward, par la grace de DIEU, Roi d'Engleterre, seigneur d'Irland, &
due de Guyenne, a touz ceaux qui cestes presentes lettres verront ou
orront, saluz.' [64]


fought in the Caerlaverock campaign of 1300

' Johannes de Sco Johanne Dns de Hannak ', 20th of the barons who sealed the
Barons' Letter to the Pope, February 1301 (in response to the Scots letter
to Boniface VIII in 1298, defying the claimed English superiority) following
the Parliament at Lincoln, 13-20 Jan 1300/1[57]

bef 29 Jun 1256 John married Alice Fitz Reynold[9].[9]


43 Alice Fitz Reynold.[9] Alice died aft 1305.[9]

'John begat John, o[f] Alice daughter of Reynold fitz-Piers.'
[Paul Reed, citing Boxgrove Cartulary][66]


44 Sir John de Moels.
Born bef 17 Jun 1270.[44]
died on 20 May 1310, he was 39.[9]
Occupation: Lord Moels.

knt., of Cadbury and Mapperton, Somerset; King's Carswell, Diptford
and Langford, Devon; Little Berkhampsted, co. Herts.; Over Worton
and Stoke Basset, co. Oxford, & c.[9]

' Johan de Mules ', knight, serving with the army of King Edward I in Scotland
fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298
: his arms are recorded as
' Argent two bars gules and in chief three
torteaux ' (Falkirk Roll H63[52])

summoned to Parliament from 6 Feb 1298/99 to 16 June 1311, by writs
directed 'Johanni de Moeles', whereby held to have become Lord Moels[9]

' Johes de Moeles Dns de Caudebury ', 26th of the barons who sealed the
Barons' Letter to the Pope, February 1301 (in response to the Scots letter
to Boniface VIII in 1298, defying the claimed English superiority) following
the Parliament at Lincoln, 13-20 Jan 1300/1[57]

identification of his wife Maud as Maud de Grey (see under Maud)[67],[43]

bef 1295 when Sir John was 24, he married Maud de Grey[9].[9]


45 Maud de Grey.[9]

or Matilda.

previously her identity was not known, as indicated in Complete Peerage:
'her parentage has not been ascertained'[ CP Vol IX -Moels, p. 6][9]

identified by John P. Ravilious as daughter of John de Grey, Lord Grey of
Wilton (cf. J. Ravilious, 'Identification of Maud, wife of John de Moels,
Lord Moels (d.1310)' , Society of Medieval Genealogy, 15 January 2002).
The primary evidence are the fines of ca. 1311/12 by John de Grey, Lord
Grey, including provisions for Roger de Moels [identified by John
Ravilious as grandson of John de Grey].[67]

confirmatory information:
(1) Dugdale, Baronage of England, p. 620 :

' This John [de Moels] took to Wife __________ the Daughter to
the Lord Grey of Ruthyn..... '[43]

(2)Kay Allen, citing 'Somerset and Dorset Notes & Queries, vol. 6
(Sept. 1899):289:

'... John Moels married a daughter of Lord Grey de Ruthyn.
Vol. 7 (1901), "...Mr. Rogers says he married a daughter (called
Matilda in So. Rec. Soc., Vol. 6) of Lord Grey de Ruthyn; G.E.C.
[CP] says could not have been a daughter, but might have been a
sister, as his father married twice."
Or they confused Ruthyn and Wilton.'[69]


46 Sir Richard Lovel.
Born aft 21 May 1270.[9]
died on 31 Jan 1350, he was 79.[9]
Occupation: Lord Lovel.

of Castle Cary, co. Somerset

his wardship granted to Sir John de Soules (a Scots knight), 1291[9]

Received manor of Winfrith Eagle, Dorset from Edward I in compensation for
Roxburgh, Jan 1310/11[9]

'He lost eleven chargers in the Scottish war, and appears to have been
captured at the battle of Bannockburn (25 June 1314), for John de Soules
in 1314 had a safe conduct on going to Scotland to secure his release.'
[CP VIII:205, sub _Lovel_ ][9]

purchased the marriage of Roger de Moels for 200 m. from William Inge, with
wardship of 2/3 of his lands, 18 July 1316 [Knights III:161, cited F.R.][44]
~ Roger de Moels d. 1316; Sir Richard Lovel evidently acquired the marriage
of his brother and heir John de Moels (who was married subsequently to
his daughter Muriel Lovel[9])

forfeited after Bannockburn (in Scotland); a Scots jury found (1347) that
'he and his ancestors had possessed the barony of Hawick from time beyond
memory. Old Roxburgh was accordingly restored to Richard and James
Lovel.'[9]

Summoned to Parliament from 20 Nov 1348 to 25 Nov 1350, by writ directed
'Ricardo Lovel', held thereby to have become Lord Lovel[9]

bef 1307 when Sir Richard was 36, he married Muriel de Soulis.[9]


47 Muriel de Soulis.
died bef 25 Feb 1317.[9]

heiress of her father and mother; lands in Scotland forfeit following
Bannockburn (1314), but these were later restored to her descendants
in 1347 by a Scots jury (the barony of Hawick and the lands of Old
Roxburgh).
Cf. CP VIII:206 and notes, sub _Lovel_[9]


[ to be continued - see Part IV and Notes ]

Gjest

Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 des 2005 02:29:44

Sunday, 18 December, 2005


Hello All,

Part IV of IV (including notes).

Cheers,

John


___________________________________

Muriel (Dinham) Hastings: Ahnentafel (part III of IV)


48 Simon de Montagu.
died on 26 Sep 1316.[9]
Occupation: Lord Montagu.

of Shipton Montague, Somerset

' Symon de Montagu ', knight, serving with the army of King Edward I in
Scotland
fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298
: his arms are recorded as
' Quarterly first and fourth argent three fusils conjoined
gules second and third azure a griffin segreant or ' (Falkirk Roll H94[52])

' Simon Dns de Monte Acuto ', fifty-sixth of the barons who sealed the
Barons' Letter to the Pope, February 1301 (in response to the Scots letter
to Boniface VIII in 1298, defying the claimed English superiority) following
the Parliament at Lincoln, 13-20 Jan 1300/1[57]

Summoned to Parliament from 29 Dec 1299 to 16 Oct 1315 by writs directed
'Simoni de Monte Acuto,' held thereby to have become Lord Montagu[9]

ca 1270 Simon married Hawise de St. Amand[9].[9]


49 Hawise de St. Amand.[9]

1st wife[9]

re: Amauri de Saint Amand,
' In 1270, for his da. Hawise, he bought the marriage of Simon, s. and
h. of William de Montagu;....' [CP Vol. XI -Saint Amand, p. 297n][9]

NOTE: mother of William de Montagu claimed in some sources (deemed erroneous)
to be Aufrica of Man


50 Piers de Montfort.[39]
Born abt 1240.
died bef 4 Mar 1286, he was 46.[9]

of Beaudesert, co. Warwick

Fought at Evesham for Simon de Montfort, 4 Aug 1265 (taken prisoner; subseq.
restored to part of father's lands).
On pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela, 1271/72 and again 1274/75[9]

aft 1264 when Piers was 24, he married Matilda de la Mare.[70],[9]


51 Matilda de la Mare. Born aft 1251.[70]

identified by Douglas Richardson as the daughter of Sir Henry de la Mare
(not his son Matthew) by his wife Joan de Neville, dau. of John de Neville
of Hallingbury, Essex:
' "Pro Matilli filia Henrici de la Mare. - Rex Willelmo de Wenling',
escaetori suo citra Trentam, salutem. Monstravit nobis Matildis filia
Henrici de la Mare quod, cum dudum contulissemus eidem Henrico
custodiam terrarum Willelmi Ortye defuncti qui de nobis tenuit in
capite habendam sibi et assignatis suis cum feodis militum, wardis et
aliis ad dictam custodiam pertinentibus, et idem Henricus dudum ante
mortem suam custiodiam illam assignasset eidem Matildi habendam usque
ad legitimam etatem heredem ejusdem Willelmi ..."

Briefly, the above text states that the king had formerly granted the
lands of William de Lorty deceased to Henry de la Mare, which Henry
during his life had assigned to his daughter, Maud, to have until the
lawful age of the heir of the said William de Lorty. Since no husband
is mentioned for Maud in this record, I assume she was unmarried at
the date this document was recorded. Typically, a husband would be
named if one existed. We know from other records that Maud was
definitely a minor in 1260. If we assume that Maud was still an
unmarried minor in 1265, this might suggest that she was born in or
about 1252. Maud and her husband, Peter de Montfort, had their first
known child in or about 1271, so a marriage date of between 1265 and
1271 for Maud and Peter would surely be acceptable.

Although there may be another grant involved, it appears that Henry de
la Mare obtained the lands of William de Lorty deceased in 1256 on the
payment of a fee of 100 marks a year at the Exchequer. The grant does
not mention William de Lorty's lands, rather the wardship "falling in
land to that yearly value" late of Sabina de Lorty. That Henry de la
Mare, the royal justice, is the person who obtained the Lorty
properties is indicated by the fact that Henry was then stated to be
in the king's "service," and then when he was in Gascony, he "gave
commandment to the queen and R[ichard] earl of Cornwall, guardians of
the realm." Elsewhere, the king states that he is about to send Henry
on a message to the court of Rome [Reference: Calendar of Patent
Rolls, 1247-1258 (1908), pp. 463, 478]. The records show that during
his career, Henry de la Mare the justice made several trips abroad for
the king. '[70]

the manor of Ashtead, co. Surrey was her maritagium or inheritance[71]

identified previously in error as daughter of Matthew de la Mare:
Regarding Sir Peter's marriage, Complete Peerage states,
"He married circa 1260 Maud, daughter and heiress of Matthew,
son of Henry de la Mare, with whom he has Ashtead in Surrey."
[CP IX:127][9] ( see also R. Borthwick[71] and Kay Allen[72])

~ this results from evident confusion with the de la Mare family
of Bradwell, Essex. Chris Phillips advises of the following record,
' A pedigree in De Banco R. 926, m. 427, cited both for the marriage of
Peter and Matilda, and for her being the daughter of Matthew son of Henry. I
believe this equates to the modern reference CP 40/926, which remarkably
enough is a plea roll from Michaelmas 9 Henry VII [1493]. If I've got that
right it means that in this instance CP has, bizarrely, preferred the
evidence of a pedigree recorded more than two centuries after the event, to
two contemporary records placing Maud as the daughter of Henry.'[73]


52 Pierre de Grandison.
Born abt 1190.
died on 31 Aug 1263, he was 73.[9]

lord of Grandison (Suisse)

Pierre married Agnes de Neuchatel.


53 Agnes de Neuchatel.

or, Neuenberg zu Nidau[74]


54 John de Tregoz.
died on 21 Aug 1300.[9]
Occupation: Lord Tregoz.[9]

of Ewyas Harold and Eaton Tregoz, co. Hereford and Lydiard Tregoze and
Allington, Wilts.[9]

evidently received the lordship of Lambourn Hundred, co. Berks with his
wife (held by him in 1274 - Meisel, p. 96[54]

summoned to Parliament by writ from 26 Jan 1296/97, whereby held to be
Lord Tregoz; fought at Falkirk, 1298; d.s.p.m. [9]

2nd husband of Mabel FitzWarin (IPM of Mabel Tregoz, cited by Rosie Bevan)[75]


55 Mabel FitzWarin.
died bef 24 May 1297.[9],[53]

had part of the lordship of Lambourn Hundred, co. Berks as her maritagium :

‘ Fulk Fitz Warin acknowledges that he gave, conceded and
by his charter confirmed to Mabil, his daughter, for homage
and her service, his entire manor of Lambourn with all
appurtenances, to have and hold for herself and the heirs
of her body of Fulk and his heirs freely, quietly, etc.,
saving religious service, as is described in his charter.’
[Meisel, p. 96, citing records of King's Bench for 1249[54]
___________________________

concerning proof of her parentage, Douglas Richardson wrote:
' For evidence that Mabel Fitz Warin was heiress of her mother, Clarice
de Auberville, I find that Mabel and her husband, Sir John Tregoz, were
granted free warren of Iden and I[s]ham, Sussex 11 June 1271. '
[Douglas Richardson, cites Moor, Knights of Edward I 5 (H.S.P. 84) (1932)]

probably m. 1stly, William de Crevequer in 1249;
m. 2ndly John de Tregoz (say 1255-1260 ?)[76]

she held the manor of Weston, co. Beds. in dower at her death
(IPM 24 May 1297, cited by Rosie Bevan)[53]


58 Edward I 'Longshanks' of England.
Born on 17 Jun 1239 in Westminster Palace.[8]
died in Burgh-on-the-Sands, England on 7 Jul 1307, he was 68.[8]
Occupation: King of England, 1272-1307.

'Edward Long-Shanks'
King of England 1272-1307

Participant in the Crusade of 1270 [leader of the English forces[7]]

famous (or infamous) for his attempt to subjugate Scotland (popularly
called "the Hammer of the Scots")

married 1stly Eleanor of Castile,
2ndly Marguerite of France[8]

In Oct 1254 when Edward I 'Longshanks' was 15, he married Eleanor of
Castile, in Las Huelgas, Castile.[8]


59 Eleanor of Castile.
Born in 1241 in Castile.[8]
died in Harby, Lincolnshire on 28 Nov 1290, she was 49.[8]
Buried in Westminster Abbey.

inherited County of Ponthieu on her mother's death, 1279[77]

accompanied her husband in the Crusade of 1270
(her daughter Joan born at Acre, hence her name)[9]


60 Sir William de Braose.
died bef 6 Jan 1290, he was 65.[9]
Born bef 15 Jul 1224.[78]
Occupation: Lord Braose.

of Bramber, Sussex and Gower
summoned to Parliament of April - May 1290 by writ directed 'Willelmo
de Breuse' or 'Brehuse' [spelling from summons to attend King at
Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283], whereby he may be held to have become Lord
Braose or Breuse[9]

received grant of manor of Bramley, Surrey from his brother Richard, 1271

He confirmed the grants made by his father of the rents of cottages in
Tetbury to the priory at Aconbury, founded in memory of Maud de St Valery
by her daughter Margaret[79]

bef 1272 when Sir William was 47, he married Mary de Ros.[9]


61 Mary de Ros. Mary died bef 23 May 1326.[9]

3rd wife[9]


1. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists," Baltimore:
the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
2. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.), 'The Visitation of Yorkshire
in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
3. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
4. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas, http://www.genealogics.com
5. John P. Ravilious, "Re: Dinham/Courtenay Correction," 1 June 2001,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
6. John P. Ravilious, "CP Addition: Muriel Dinham, daughter of John, Lord
Dinham (d. 1428)," 20 February 1404, email therav3@aol.com, cites A2A,
Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice, AR/37/24.
7. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and
Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 2004.
8. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists,"
Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1999, (2nd edition,
1999).
9. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint, 1982
(Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great
Britain and the United Kingdom.
10. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
London: Printed for His Majesty's Stationery Office by the Hereford Times
Co., Ltd., 1910, (Henry III, A.D. 1258-1266), p. 435, grant to Richard de
Brus of the custody of the heir of Roger de Tony, (Henry III, A.D.
1267-1272), (Richard II, A.D. 1377-1381), Vol. 1, p. 524, presentation
to the church of Southpole, 3 July 1380, (Richard II, A.D. 1391-1396),
Vol. V, p. 3, election of Sibyl de Montagu as prioress of Amesbury,
(Richard II, A.D. 1396-1399), Vol. VI, p. 34, (Henry IV, A.D. 1399-1401),
Vol. I, pp. 268-9, controversy re: Sibyl de Montagu, prioress of Amesbury,
(Henry VII, A.D. 1485 - 1494), Vol. 1, pp. 36-37, grant to Robert Skerne,
Esq., Vol. 2, p. 52 (commissions of array).
11. John P. Ravilious, "CP Correction: Sir John de Dinham (d. 1428)," 18
October 2004, email therav3@aol.com, cites Calendar of Patent Rolls,
Richard II, Vol. 1 (1377-81), p. 524.
12. Dr. Hannes Kleineke, "RE: the Lords Dinham and their relations," 31 March
2004, cites Cornwall Record Office AR2/539/5 ( 'refers to her funeral '),
dated 1393/4.
13. Brad Verity, "Grenvilles of Devon Pt. 2," June 1, 2001,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
14. The Register of Thomas de Brantyngham, Bishop of Exeter, A.D. 1370-1394
(2 vols.), Exeter Episcopal Registers, Vols. 6-7, London: George Bell
& Sons, 1901.
15. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
16. John P. Ravilious, "CP Addition: Eleanor (Elena) de Montagu, wife of Sir
John de Dinham," 31 March 2004, cites email from Dr. Hannes Kleineke,
Senior Research Fellow of the History of Parliament project, including
re: his transcription of Cornwall RO AR37/56/1, re: John de Dinham and
his wife Elena/Eleanor, incl. his concurrence in the identification of
Eleanor de Montagu as Ellen/Elena, wife of John de Dinham.
17. "Testamenta Vetusta," Nicholas Harris Nicolas, Esq., 2 Vols. London:
Nichols & Son, Parliament Street, 1826, [title con't]: Being Illustrations
From Wills, wills of John, Lord Montagu (d. 1390) and others extracted by
Timothy Powys-Lybbe.
18. John P. Ravilious, "CP Addition: Eleanor (Elena) de Montagu, wife of Sir
John de Dinham," 27 March 2004, cites PRO, Cornwall Record Office:
Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121], AR/1/890,
AR/1/890, gift dated (Monday after Annunciation, 31 Edw III); at
Ilstyngton, Monday, 27th March 1357, further, VCH (Hampshire)
III:134-136, re: manor of Warblington, co. Hants.
19. John P. Ravilious, "The Lady and the Crown: Eleanor (de Montagu) de
Dinham," 3 September 2005, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites evidence
from the tomb of Lady Eleanor Dinham, found in John Stabb, Some
Old Devon Churches, their rood screens, pulpits, fonts (London:
Simpkin, Marshall, Hamilton, Kent & Co., Ltd. [no date], pp. 133-144,
courtesy Dr. R. Peters, http://www.wissensdrang.com/stabb133.htm
as related to details in the will of Sir John de Montagu, dated 20
Mar 1388, in Testamenta Vetusta, p. 124.
20. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Baltimore:
Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
21. W. H. Bliss, ed., "Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers Relating
to Great Britain and Ireland," Petitions to the Pope, Vol. I (A.D.
1342-1419), London: for the Public Record Office, 1896, (reprinted 1971,
Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein).
22. "Inquisitions and Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids," London: H. M.
Stationary Office, 1906, (reprinted 1973, Kraus-Thomson, Liechtenstein),
Vol. IV: Northampton - Somerset.
23. Harvard Law School Library, "English Deeds Collection," URL

http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/coll ... /index.php
Deed 174, Hollis No. AOA6353 - deed of Sir Thomas de Courtenay to Roger
Torel.
24. John P. Ravilious, "CP Correction: John de Dinham (d. 7 Jan 1382/83) and
his 2nd wife Alice," 24 February 2004, cites PRO, Cornwall Record Office:
Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/1 - AR/1/527], AR/1/415,
Declaration of tenure, and demand for homage and fealty.
25. John P. Ravilious, "CP 'Correction': Sir John de Dinham and Muriel de
Courtenay," 24 February 2004, cites PRO, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell
of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121], AR/1/890, AR/1/890, gift
dated (Monday after Annunciation, 31 Edw III); at Ilstyngton, Monday,
27th March 1357.
26. R. Pearse Chope, "The Early History of the Manor of Hartland", Report
and Transactions of the Devonshire Association for the Advancement of
Science, Literature, and Art, Vol. XXXIV [Vol. IV, 2nd series], Plymouth:
W. Brendon and Son, 1902, pp. 418-449.
27. "The National Archives," URL
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
28. Jonathan Sumption, "The Hundred Years War," Philadelphia: University of
Pennsylvania Press, 1999, Vol. II: Trial by Fire.
29. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet," Jan 20, 2003, email
royalancestry@msn.com.
30. Douglas Richardson, "Another C.P. Addition: Margaret de Monthermer,
wife of John de Montagu," 15 June 2005, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com,
cites F.F. Kirby, ed., Wykeham's Register, 2 (1899): 555.
31. William Page, F.S.A., ed., "Victoria County History of Hampshire and the
Isle of Wight," London: Archibald Constable and Company, Ltd., 1908,
Vol. III, pp. 134-136 (Warblington).
32. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
London: for the Public Record Office, 1895, (reprinted 1971,
Kraus-Thomson,
Liechtenstein).
33. Douglas Richardson, "C.P. Addition: Parentage of Josce de Dynham,"
18 November 2004, douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net, cites List of
Ancient Correspondence, Lists and Indexes, No. XV, reprinted 1968,
pg. 552; cf. Index to Ancient Correspondence, of the Chancery and the
Exchequer, 1 (Lists and Indexes, Supplementary Series, No. XV)
(reprinted 1969), pp. 308, 351].
34. Thomas Rymer, ed., "Foedera, Conventiones, Literae, et Cujuscunque
Generis Acta Publica," Editio Secunda: London: J. Tonson, 1727,
additions and corrections by Adam Clarke and Frederick Holbrooke,
Record Commissioners: London 1816-1869., URL
http://www.anglo-norman.net/xslt/texts/foedera2.xml
courtesy The Ango-Norman On-Line Hub.
35. Dr. Hannes Kleineke, "Re: Dinham descent & dilemmas," 19 April 2004,
cites Cornwall Record Office deeds bearing seal of Lady Margaret Dinham,
incl. arms of Botreaux.
36. John P. Ravilious, "CP Correction: Margaret, wife of Sir John de Dinham
(d. 1332)," 1 May 2004, cite Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne
and Trerice [AR/1/1 - AR/1/527] , AR/1/397:, Agreement for adjustment of
dower between Lady Margaret 'de Dyneham' and her son John, 29 Mar 1343
[Saturday after Annunciation, 23 Edw III ], documentation provided by
Dr. Hannes Kleineke.
37. Dr. Hannes Kleineke, "RE: Dinham - Brightleigh, Devon; and the Botreaux
connection," 1 May 2004, cites Cornwall Record Office deeds bearing seal
of Lady Margaret Dinham, incl. arms of Botreaux, including CRO AR1/397
(Arundell of Lanherne collection), documented in his Ph.D. thesis, "The
Dinham Family in the Later Middle Ages' (London Univ. Ph.D., 1998),
p. 27, n. 99.
38. Robert W. Barnes, "British Roots of Maryland Families," Baltimore:
Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., 1999.
39. "Ancestors of Edmund de Mortimer," David Utzinger UTZ@aol.com,
4 August 2000.
40. K. B. McFarlane, "The Nobility of Later Medieval England," Oxford Univ.
Press, 1973 (reprinted 1980), Clinton, 159-160;.
41. Douglas Richardson, "Identity of Margaret, wife of Henry le Tyeys &
Thomas de Monthermer," 12 December 2004,
douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net, cites seal in Roger Ellis,
Catalogue of Personal Seals in the Public Record Office, vol. 2 (1981),
p. 108 : "P2161 Margaret widow of Henry le Tyas (Tyays) 1323.
42. Douglas Richardson, "Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and
Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 2005.
43. William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, "The Baronage of England," Tho.
Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675 [reprint New
York, 1977].
44. Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., "Knights of Edward I," Pubs. of the
Harleian Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
45. "Inquisitions Post Mortem," Vol. Edward I, pp. 22-25 for 'Joyce de
Dynham', p. 25 for 'John de Bella Acqua', scanned images provided by
Rosie Bevan, email: rbevan@paradise.net.nz.
46. "Devon Manors: Tiverton Hundred,"
http://www.mortimer.co.uk/manors/hemyock.htm
47. Col. F. B. Prideaux, "Notes and News ('with regard to the pedigree of
Fishacre, Genealogists' Magazine, Vol. 6, p. 626')," The Genealogists'
Magazine, Vol. 7, No. 10, June, 1937, pp. 536-7, provides citation from
an Assize of Mort' Ancestor (late Edw. III) to recover possession of
the manor of Morelegh.
48. John P. Ravilious, "Correction to CP: Dinham, Lord Dinham," May 16, 2002,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
49. "Devonshire Manors in the Domesday Book," http://www.hemyockcastle.co.uk/
50. Mark Harry, "Re: CP Addition: Ancestry of the Lords Botreaux," 4 May 2004,
cites Maclean (re: Trigg Manor, pp. 631 et seq.), Dugdale and other
sources, email dunsland@yahoo.com.
51. Douglas Richardson, "Magna Carta ancestry," 14 February 2005, email
royalancestry@msn.com.
52. Brian Timms, "The Falkirk Roll," an occasional roll of arms of those
having fought at the Battle of Falkirk, July 1298,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/falkirkH.html
This is an occasional roll, listing those present at the battle of
Falkirk, which was fought on 22 July 1298,, when the forces of Edward
I defeated a Scottish army under William Wallace., It is accepted that
the roll was composed shortly afterwards. The original blazon is in the
Anglo-Norman dialect, from a copy of the roll made by Robert Glover,
c1585., The source of this blazon is Gerard J Brault, Rolls of Arms of
Edward I, Society of Antiquaries, London, 1996.
53. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Clarice, wife of Sir Adam de Everingham (Clarice la
Warre ?)," Feb 19, 2003, email, therav3@aol.com (paper copy: library
of John Ravilious, cites MABEL, LATE THE WIFE OF JOHN TREGOZ - Writ 24
May, 25 Edw I, [BEDFORD] Inq Wednesday after St Barnabas, 25 Edw I, also
CIPM v.7 no.676, the IPM of William de Grandison (1335).
54. Janet Meisel, "Barons of the Welsh Frontier: The Corbet, Pantulf and
Fitz Warin Families, 1066-1272," Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press.
55. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent,
1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
56. Douglas Richardson, "Hastings-Morley," June 28, 2001,
royalancestry@email.msn.com (direct email).
57. Brian Timms, "The Barons' Letter in reply to the Pope, February 1301,"
http://www.briantimms.com/baronsletter/background.htm
Seven earls and sixty five barons sealed the letter, which is now in
the Public Record Office.
58. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of
Scotland,"
Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
59. "Edward I," Michael Prestwich, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1997
[in England, originally 1988 -Methuen], Yale English Monarchs series.
60. "Calendar of the Charter Rolls," preserved in the Public Record Office,
London, 1898, Vol. II (Henry III - Edward I, 1257-1300), pp. 190-191,
letters patent of William de Fiennes for the marriage of his sister
Maud to Humphrey de Bohun, heir of the earl of Hereford, 1912, vol. 4
(1-14 Edward III, 1327 – 1341, p. 475, grants confirmed by the king 12
July 1340, along with a royal charter dated 13 December 4 Edward III,
at the request of Walter, abbot of Garendon. the list of grants runs
through pp. 472-481, Citations provided by Chris Phillips
(cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk).
61. Brian Timms, "St George's Roll," College of Arms, London, MS Vincent
164 ff 1-21b., http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/, Dated c1285. Painted,
containing 677 shields. Source: Gerard J Brault, Rolls of Arms of
Edward I, Boydell & Brewer, 1997.
62. John P. Ravilious, "CP Correction: death of Isabel (de Vere)
(de Courtenay) de Dinham," 19 April 2004, cite Cornwall Record Office:
Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice AR/17-AR/50, AR/37/6, resolution of
dispute between Sir Hugh de Courtenay (son of Isabel) and Sir Oliver de
Dinham (widower of Isabel), dated Morrow of Epiphany, 19 Edw [I] (7 Jan
1290/1).
63. Ronny Bodine, "CHAMPERNOUN OF ILFRACOMBE, DEVONSHIRE," 1 Feb, 1999,
paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious.
64. Douglas Richardson, "Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's cousin, John de St.
John," Aug 2, 2003, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites Foedera, 1 (1816):
793 [online at

http://and4.anglo-norman.net:8082/cgi-b ... ml&loc=793
and Foedera, 1 (1816): 794, in which Edmund, Earl of Lancaster addresses
Sir John de St. John as, 'son chier cousin mon sire Johan de Seint Johan
chevaler' in 1294.
65. John P. Ravilious, "Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's cousin, John de St. John,"
Aug 2, 2003, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, notes relationship that would
exist (as 4th cousins) between Sir John and, Edmund of Lancaster if
Godeheut was a daughter of Roger de Tosny, and Constance de Beaumont.
66. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's cousin, John de St.
John," Aug 12, 2003, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites Boxgrove
Cartulary, p. 181 (an English version of the "History of the Foundation,
and Founders' Genealogy" ).
67. John P. Ravilious, "Identification of Maud, wife of John de Moels, Lord
Moels (d.1310)," Jan 15, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, [followup
identification of William Inge by Douglas Richardson, 4 Feb 2002].
68. "Ahnentafel for Pat Patterson: Generation 32," biographical information
re: John de Kelly, http://www.patpnyc.com/ahn-23.shtml, cites Knights of
Edward I.
69. Kay Allen, AG, "Re: Identification of Maud, wife of John de Moels," Feb
4, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
70. Douglas Richardson, "Re: C.P. Addition: Joan, mother of Maud de la Mare,
wife of Peter de Montfort," 8 November 2004,
douglasrichardson@royalancestry.net, cites evidence found for the
ancestry of Maud de la Mare, wife of Piers de Montfort of Beaudesert,
including Calendar of Close Rolls, 1264-1265 (1937), pg. 55, evidence
from A2A, Release by Hawyse de Nevile, posted 1 November 2004.
71. Richard Borthwick, "de la Mare," Feb 26, 1999,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
72. Kay Allen, AG, "Fwd: Dakeny/De Akeny," April 21, 2002,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, citing VCH Surrey 3:248, 252.
73. Mark Harry, "Re: C.P. Addition: Joan, mother of Maud de la Mare,
wife of Peter de Montfort," 23 November 2004, cites Wrothesley,
Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls and other sources.
74. Paul Theroff, "The Counts of Neuenberg," Paul Theroff's Dynastic
Genealogy Files, worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/.
75. Rosie Bevan, "Re: de Weyland, an Irish Connection (?) : Chipping Sodbury,
co. Glocs.," June 2, 2002, rbevan@paradise.net.nz.
76. John P. Ravilious, "CP Correction: Fulk 'III' FitzWarin and His
Descendants," May 3, 2003, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites Close
Rolls of the Reign of Henry III (1227-1272), Vol. II p. 210, as cited
in the Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs:, and the records of King’s Bench
from 1249, as cited by Janet Meisel, Barons of the Welsh Frontier: The
Corbet, Pantulf and Fitz Warin Families, 1066-1272, p. 96.
77. John Carmi Parsons, "Alais of France," Feb 19, 1999,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
78. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Llywelyn's Daughter Margaret and the de Braose
Family," Oct 3, 1999, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites CPR (Calendar
of Patent Rolls) 1216-25, p. 134 re: John de Braose being 'of age' Jan.
1218;, _Brut y Tywysogyon or The Chronicle of the Princes ..._
(Roll Series, v.17: ed. Rev. John Williams ab Ithel [London, 1860],
pp. 304-5) concerning John's marriage to Margaret ferch Llywelyn, and
[Curia Regis Rolls, 490-1; CCR 1231-4, Hen. III, 2:86 concerning his
death, additional contributions and discussion with Douglas Richardson,
Stewart Baldwin, Todd A. Farmerie, and others.
79. "The Braose Web," by Doug Thompson
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... index1.htm

Chris Phillips

Re: Updates to website

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 19 des 2005 14:49:40

I wrote:
I have included links to some useful out-of-copyright books from the new
Google Book Search facility.


Nearly all of which seem to have been removed now. I wonder why.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: The Honor of Lancaster???

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 des 2005 00:59:01

In a message dated 12/17/05 10:57:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:

<< Now Avice de Lancaster whose father, as I understand it was Roger de
Montgomery and Ademonde de la Marche, married William Peverell. that I understand,
(of Lancaster), and her father Roger held the Honor of Lancaster, BUT... what
about William II de Lancaster's whose daughter was also Avice de Lancaster,
that allegedly married Richard de Morville? She was born approx. 5 years after
the 1st Avice death, the families obviously knew each other I would surmise,
being related more or less. >>

Emmett again I would caution about these dates.
As far as I know Avice, wife of William Peverell has no definite death year.
As well, Avice, wife of William de Lancaster, has no definite birth year.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Bold-Savage marriage

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 des 2005 01:44:01

In a message dated 12/19/05 3:04:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bclagett@cov.com writes:

<< If, as you say in RPA p. 39 and MCA p. 723 John Savage
IV (who married Katherine Stanley) was "born about 1423
(aged 40 in 1463)," then chronology seems to make it
clear that it was this John Savage who was Dulcie's father.

But what is the evidence that, as you say, John Savage IV
was aged 40 in 1463? >>

In my database I say that when John Savage died 29 Jun 1464 he was "aged 53"
Can someone remind me what is the source for his age ?
If he was really only 53, then the John "born about 1423" could not be his
son.

Will Johnson

Chris Phillips

Re: Updates to website

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 21 des 2005 19:30:41

I wrote:
I have included links to some useful out-of-copyright books from the new
Google Book Search facility.


Nearly all of which seem to have been removed now. I wonder why.

I have just received a response from Google, indicating that they had been
taken offline for "further processing", as a result of feedback from users,
and that they will be back "once they meet our quality standards".

Chris Phillips

John Brandon

Re: Updates to website

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 des 2005 19:38:49

I have just received a response from Google, indicating that they had been
taken offline for "further processing", as a result of feedback from users,
and that they will be back "once they meet our quality standards".

Sounds like some b.s. ...

Gjest

Re: Jordan de Thornhill's father-in-law, Richard fitz Roger

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 des 2005 20:48:02

Dear Merilyn,

Many thanks for that detailed (and informative) response.

It seems most likely that the Jordan de Thornhill who
married Quenilda, dau. of Richard fitz Roger (of Woodplumpton)
was the son of Jordan fitz Essulf, and therefor brother and not
father to Richard de Thornhill (ancestor of the subsequent
Thornhills). Given Quenilda's subsequent marriage and date of
death (with an IPM in 1252) this works better with the known
chronology, esp. as Richard de Thornhill's son Sir John died
before 1260. Certainly her IPM leaves little doubt that she
left no Thornhill progeny.

Some additional information (with evidently no extended
genealogical value), I show re: Thurstan de Banaster that
Margery or Margaret, wife of Richard fitz Roger, was coheiress
of her father: her purparty included Little Appleby, co. Leics.
as indicated by Farrer:

'Margaret the mother of Quenilda;...
'Quenilda's mother was daughter of Thurstan Banastre.' Farrer,
Honors and Knights Fees II:57 (citing Leics.Arch.Soc. xi, 428)

Farrer also wrote that ' Roger Gernet and Quenilda his
wife surrendered to William de Vernon all their share in
(Little) Appleby [co. Leics.] held by inheritance from Margaret
the mother of Quenilda;..' [Farrer, HKF II:57].

Thanks again for your ready reply, and resolution.

Cheers,


John

John P. Ravilious

Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 21 des 2005 20:58:53

Dear Will,

That's a very good question.

I recall some extended conversation on the topic some time ago on
the list. The following is what I have in my notes on the subject:

NOTE: his death is given in CP II:465, note (f) [sub _Courtenay_] and
CP IV:370, note (h) as 3 May 1274. Footnote (h) says,

"Chron. of Ford (Monasticon, vol. v,
p. 379), where, however, the year is erroneously given as 1273. The
writ of
diem cl. ext. was issued 12 May 1274 (Fine Roll, 2 Edw. I, m. 23)."

So either (A) the Ford cartulary is off a year, or (B) it took a
rather long time from date of death (3 May 1273) until the writ was
issued (12 May 1274). I'm of the opinion that (B) is correct, for the
following two reasons:

A. Josce de Dinham (son of Isabel de Vere by her 2nd marriage to
Sir Oliver de Dinham) was - allegedly - born before 26 Feb 1274/5, as
he was stated to be aged 24 and more at his father's IPM in 1298/99.

B. Josce's son Sir John de Dinham (d. 1332) was acknowledged by
Hugh de Courtenay as his kinsman, as discovered by Douglas Richardson
[1]. This makes it rather certain that Josce was a son of Isabel de
Vere (grandmother of Hugh de Courtenay).

So, there was either a somewhat abbreviated pregnancy for Isabel
de Vere when carrying Josce de Dinham (say March 1274 - Feb or March
1274/5), or a slightly wider range for betrothal, marriage,
consummation and Josce's birth (say March - June 1273 to Feb or March
1274/5).

For the time being, I've left it at the 1273 date.

Cheers,

John


NOTES

[1] Douglas Richardson, citation from Lists and Indexes, Supplementary
Series, No. XV) (reprinted 1969), pp. 308, 351.


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/18/05 4:28:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

snip
2nd husband of Isabel de Vere, widow of John de Courtenay(d. 3 May 1274);
m. before 24 Jan 1276/77

cf. CP IV:323[9]

snip


Sir John de Courtenay = Isabel de Vere = Sir Oliver de Dinham
of Okehampton I d. bef I of Hartland, Devon
d. 3 May 1273 I 7 Jan 1290/91 I d. 26 Feb 1298/99
/snip

John. When did John de Courtenay die? 1274 ? or 1273?
Thanks
Will Johnson


John P. Ravilious

Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 21 des 2005 21:10:04

Dear Will,

For better or for worse, my genealogy program (Generations 8.0)
generates certain statements, incl. taking the 'after 21 May 1270'
birth date for Sir Richard Lovel and the 'before 1307' marriage date
and stating plainly (if too succinctly),

' bef 1307 when Sir Richard was 36, he married Muriel de Soulis.'

Sir Richard was known to have been a minor at his father's death
(his lands were taken into the King's hands), 21 May 1291, hence my
statement that he was born after 21 May 1270 [CP VIII:205, sub
_Lovel_]. The same account states he was married before 1307. He may
have been aged 36 when married; for all we know, he may have been 16.
Most likely he was aged somewhere in between ( "say 26" ?).

Cheers,

John



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/18/05 4:28:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

his wardship granted to Sir John de Soules (a Scots knight), 1291[9]

SNIP
bef 1307 when Sir Richard was 36, he married Muriel de Soulis.[9]

SNIP

What is the exact nature of the quotes from this source?
If he was a minor in 1291 and 36 BEFore 1307 then he could *only* have been
born exactly in 1270.
Right? Wrong?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 des 2005 21:12:14

In a message dated 12/18/05 4:28:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<snip>
<< 2nd husband of Isabel de Vere, widow of John de Courtenay(d. 3 May 1274);
m. before 24 Jan 1276/77

cf. CP IV:323[9]

<snip>
<<

Sir John de Courtenay = Isabel de Vere = Sir Oliver de Dinham
of Okehampton I d. bef I of Hartland, Devon
d. 3 May 1273 I 7 Jan 1290/91 I d. 26 Feb 1298/99 >>
</snip>

John. When did John de Courtenay die? 1274 ? or 1273?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 des 2005 21:20:02

In a message dated 12/18/05 4:28:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< his wardship granted to Sir John de Soules (a Scots knight), 1291[9]

<SNIP>
bef 1307 when Sir Richard was 36, he married Muriel de Soulis.[9] >>

<SNIP>

What is the exact nature of the quotes from this source?
If he was a minor in 1291 and 36 BEFore 1307 then he could *only* have been
born exactly in 1270.
Right? Wrong?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 des 2005 21:25:58

In a message dated 12/18/05 4:28:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Sir Hugh married Eleanor le Despenser.
41 Eleanor le Despenser. died on 30 Sep 1328.[9] >>

in London when returning from Canterbury

Gjest

Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Din

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 des 2005 22:03:44

In a message dated 12/18/05 4:29:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< 49 Hawise de St. Amand.[9]

1st wife[9]

re: Amauri de Saint Amand,
' In 1270, for his da. Hawise, he bought the marriage of Simon, s. and
h. of William de Montagu;....' [CP Vol. XI -Saint Amand, p. 297n][9] >>

I had the birth of William, 2nd Lord Montagu who married Elizabeth de
Montfort, as abt 1265.
Since his father Simon was a minor still in 1270 and not yet married or just
then married, this cannot be correct
Checking the chronology of William, 2nd Lord, I see no reason not to move his
birth forward, so now I'm setting it as 1270/85.

Comments appreciated.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 des 2005 11:50:02

Nat Taylor wrote

The particular royal line for Wentworth that appears in RD600 is wrong;

it contains a chronological impossibility and is based on the alleged
Fitzwilliam - Sothill marriage, which crops up as a perennial problem
here (Joan Fitzwilliam, if she is a Fitzwilliam, cannot be daughter of
the parents given to her there). Gary and I went over some other, more
valid royal lines for Wentworth, one of which will probably appear in
Gary's corrigenda to be included with the next printing of RD600. Based
on work Paul began in the 1990s Wentworth has a couple of those
ubiquitous Yorkshire descents from William the Lion and at least one
from Henry II. Paul's work has not been published, though.

The irony is that Wentworth had a different, and also bogus, line in
RD500.

In addition to Benning Wentworth I think William Wentworth has many
'notable' descendants of the type Gary likes to trace.

Nat Taylor
<<<<


Re the Fitzwilliam line, yesterday I came across a Walter Fitwilliam of
Adthlingfleth in a deed dated about 1180. I've not seen a Walter Fitwilliam this
far back in the Yorkshire Fitwilliam pedigrees, nor can I see him mentioned
in Keats-Rohan's DD. Has anybody come accross him?

Adrian



Reference: WWM/D/1; Lease; Creation dates: c.1180
Scope and Content
Clement, Abbot of the Church of St Mary, York., to Walter Fitzwilliam of
Adthlingfleth.
Land in Haldanaby, and the manor of Usafleth, with all appurtenances, viz.
lands, moors and meadows, with clearings and the new furlong, from Wdefleth to
the more, already leased, to the dike called Crosdic, and the fish pond of
Eriscar, and the middle of that land between Horscroft, and the dike which
divides Usafleth and Buthorp. Reciting an agreement between the Church of St
Mary, and the Church of Selby, concerning tithes, but with the exception of
Buthorp tithes.
At a rent of 14 marks of silver, and 7s. 4d., plus Buthorp tithes, which are
already held by Walter Fitzwilliam, at an additional one mark per year.
Witnesses: Joscelin the chaplain, Walter the clerk of Hornes ha, Roger the
clerk of Forcona, Hendone of Athlingfleth, Rauf of these lands, Robert of
these lands, Gervalius the constable, Richard of [Hupp ...], Stephen of [M ...],
Alan of Elmswell, Gaufridus of Ketelby.
n.d. but c.1180, at the time of Abbot Clement.
PRO; A2A; Sheffield Archives_ Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments [WWM_C - WWM_E].

John P. Ravilious

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 22 des 2005 12:42:58

Dear Adrian,

I have nothing re: the descent of this Walter fitz William, but he
evidently held land in Adlingfleet of the lords of the manor
(D'eville): below is a grant by Robert D'eiville (or Daivill, or de
Davidvilla at the time) [1]witnessed by " William, clerk of
Ethelinghefled, Walter his son " and others.

Grant, undated [date est. c.1150]:
' By Robert de Davidvilla [D'Eyville] to William son of Scledware,
of one bovate at Ethelinghefled [Adlingfleet] at an annual rent of 11b
pepper
Witnesses, William de Davidvilla, Roger his brother, Geoffrey de
Davidvilla, William, clerk of Ethelinghefled, Walter his son and Yvo
son of the same, Anschetil de Huc, Savaric his brother, Alexander de
Cressi, Geoffrey his brother, Holdewin de Redness, Harvey his son '
[Undated] - A2A, Sheffield Archives: Copley Papers: Deeds re
Adlingfleet (Humberside), SY570/Z/1/1

Hope this is helpful (despite lack of a Sprotborough
connection......).

Cheers,

John


NOTES:

[1] This is the Robert de Daiville, of Egmanton, Notts. and
Adlingfleet, co. Yorks., who d. bef 2 Apr 1201, and was the husband of
(1) NN de Stuteville, and (2) Juliana de Montfort. He was the
constable of Roger de Mowbray -' Robertus de Daiville' - who held 4
knights' fees de vetere, and 1 fee de novo from Roger de Mowbray at
Freeby, Kirkby Bellars and Welby, co. Leics., Egmanton, Tuxford, and
Weston, co. Notts., Baxby, Butterwick, Kilburn, Nawton, Thornton
Bridge, Thornton on the Hill and Adlingfleet, co. Yorks. in 1166 [DD
429, cites Red Book of the Exchequer, 343, 418-21].



ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:
Nat Taylor wrote

SNIP


Re the Fitzwilliam line, yesterday I came across a Walter Fitwilliam of
Adthlingfleth in a deed dated about 1180. I've not seen a Walter Fitwilliam this
far back in the Yorkshire Fitwilliam pedigrees, nor can I see him mentioned
in Keats-Rohan's DD. Has anybody come accross him?

Adrian



Reference: WWM/D/1; Lease; Creation dates: c.1180
Scope and Content
Clement, Abbot of the Church of St Mary, York., to Walter Fitzwilliam of
Adthlingfleth.
Land in Haldanaby, and the manor of Usafleth, with all appurtenances, viz.
lands, moors and meadows, with clearings and the new furlong, from Wdefleth to
the more, already leased, to the dike called Crosdic, and the fish pond of
Eriscar, and the middle of that land between Horscroft, and the dike which
divides Usafleth and Buthorp. Reciting an agreement between the Church of St
Mary, and the Church of Selby, concerning tithes, but with the exception of
Buthorp tithes.
At a rent of 14 marks of silver, and 7s. 4d., plus Buthorp tithes, which are
already held by Walter Fitzwilliam, at an additional one mark per year.
Witnesses: Joscelin the chaplain, Walter the clerk of Hornes ha, Roger the
clerk of Forcona, Hendone of Athlingfleth, Rauf of these lands, Robert of
these lands, Gervalius the constable, Richard of [Hupp ...], Stephen of [M ...],
Alan of Elmswell, Gaufridus of Ketelby.
n.d. but c.1180, at the time of Abbot Clement.
PRO; A2A; Sheffield Archives_ Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments [WWM_C - WWM_E].

Gjest

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2005 02:53:01

In a message dated 12/22/2005 5:18:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

The particular royal line for Wentworth that appears in RD600 is wrong;
it contains a chronological impossibility and is based on the alleged
Fitzwilliam - Sothill marriage, which crops up as a perennial problem
here (Joan Fitzwilliam, if she is a Fitzwilliam, cannot be daughter of
the parents given to her there). Gary and I went over some other, more
valid royal lines for Wentworth, one of which will probably appear in
Gary's corrigenda to be included with the next printing of RD600. Based
on work Paul began in the 1990s Wentworth has a couple of those
ubiquitous Yorkshire descents from William the Lion and at least one
from Henry II. Paul's work has not been published, though.



The line of Sothill is confusing. It appears that Henry de Sothill [c.
1345-1376] who married Dionysia NN was the father of three children by her:

1.Henry de Sothill [c. 1365-1421] who married Joan FitzWilliam [this is
based on the documentation concerning the manor of Rawtonstall, Yorkshire]. After
Henry's death in 1421 Joan married William Burton as her second husband.
Joan appears to be the daughter of Sir William FitzWilliam by Maud de Cromwell
so GBR is one generation off in his lineage. Joan was born ca. 1380 - 1385
which works as John FitzWilliam the eldest son and heir was born July 25, 1377.

2. Robert de Sothill proven to be Henry's brother by a charter dated 11
Henry IV [1409-1410] naming him as such.

3. Beatrice de Sothill. This is where the chronology would place her and the
onomastic evidence seems likely as she would be the granddaughter of
Beatrice de Neville of Redbourne Manor, co. Lincoln. There is also the fact that
this placement would make Beatrice de Sothill the wife to her step-brother as
Dionysia married Sir Thomas Markenfield as her second husband [and his second
wife]. This did occur in this period when women remarried later in life.

I have seen no hard evidence that proves this theory about Beatrice's
placement but it can be conjectured from the documentation available on her
brothers and parents.

I welcome any pertinent documentation on this.

Sincerely,
MichaelAnne

Leo van de Pas

Re: Karen Knutsdatter Schancke to King Håkon V of Norw ay?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 23 des 2005 04:46:23

One remark. In 9 you have king Hakon V married to Katharina Sigurdsdatter, I
understand they were not married.

Do you know the book by S. Otto Brenner "Nachkommen Grom des Alten"? In this
book you can find from your list generations 5 to 9 as you have them.

Hope this helps.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "Curt Nilsen" <viking-roots@comcast.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 1:09 PM
Subject: Karen Knutsdatter Schancke to King Håkon V of Norway?


Greetings Newsgroup,

Comments on the following lineage are solicited.

The line is from Karen Knutsdatter Schancke (born ~1496, died ~1578,
and widely reported to be the wife of Kristoffer Trondson Rustung, the
famous Norwegian Admiral & privateer) back to King Håkon V Magnusson
of Norway.

This lineage can be found in numerous places on the Internet. I've
looked at most of the sources, but given my weak Norwegian language
skills, it's hard to catch the nuance and caveats such old information
can often have.

Any insight is greatly appreciated.


***** KAREN TO KING HÅKON V

1) Karen Knutsdatter Schancke

2) Dorthe Adelsten (married to Knud Pedersen Schancke)
(Source: Roger de Robelin's "Skanke ätten," page 396)

3) Anne Henriksdatter Friis (married to Håkan Torstensson Egge )
(Source: Roger de Robelin's "Skanke ätten," page 396)

4) Karen Engelbreksdatter. AKA Catharina Engelbrechtsdatter (married
Henrik Friis til Holma i Brastad)
(Source: Roger de Robelin's "Skanke ätten," page 396)

5) Ulfhild Brynjulfsdatter Roos (married Engelbrecht Stefansen)
(Source: Diplomaticum Norvegicum III 739 and V 964)

6) Brynjulf Jonsson (married Ingeborg Bengtsdotter)
(Source: Diplomaticum Norvegicum III 739)

7) Jan Haftorsson av Sudreim til Borregaard (married Birgitte
Knutsdatter Lejon)
(Source: Diplomaticum Norvegicum III 739)

8) Baron Halvtor Jonson til Sudrheim (married Princess Agnes
Håkonsdotter)
(Source: Wilhelm Karl Prinz von Isenburg's, "Stammtafeln zur
Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten," volume II, table #76, 1965
version)
(Note: I'm still looking for a good source that states that Jan is the
son of Halvtor)

9) King Håkon V Magnusson of Norway (married Katharina Sigurdsdatter)

(Source: Wilhelm Karl Prinz von Isenburg's, "Stammtafeln zur
Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten," volume II, table #76, 1965
version)



John P. Ravilious

Soothill Redux (was Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor,

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 23 des 2005 13:18:37

Friday, 23 December, 2005



Dear MichaelAnne, Nat, Adrian, et al.,

On the matter of the Nevill - Soothill connection, I had
placed this on a back burner some time ago, but recall that I was
concerned whether a sound blood relationship existed, from the
existence of the following record from 1371:


Item details for C 143/375/5
John de Bekyngham and Beatrice his wife to grant two-thirds
of the manor of Redbourne, with the reversion of the other third,
now held for life by Constance late the wife of Peter de Nevill,
to Gerard de Sotehill, Robert his brother, and the heirs of the
said Gerard, retaining land and rent in Flixborough.
45 EDWARD III


My original thinking was, if Gerard Soothill was the elder son
of Beatrice by her former marriage (or eldest son of a daughter of
Beatrice) - and Henry by a former marriage of his father - why grant
what was already to be inherited? In thinking on this again,
thanks to prompting by your post, it now seems more obvious (if
unproven) that:

A. Henry, the eldest son, was the heir of the Soothill
lands and more than well provided for;

B. The grant to Gerard (with remainder to younger brother
Robert) was a provision of the mother's lands
to a younger (usually 2nd, non-clerical) son. The
grant of the lands in Beatrice's lifetime would ensure
that Gerard received the lands.

I would suggest then that the relevant pedigree reflecting the
individuals in the Neville of Redbourne family, esp. re: the
descent of Redbourne, Lincs. would be shown (although not
comprehensively) as follows:


Roger de Neville of Redbourne
d. 1357
______________________I____________________________
I I I
Peter de Beatrice de Philippa
Neville Neville de Neville
d. 1366 1) Henry = = 2) John de = Thomas
=Constance de Soothill I Bekyngham Neville
I I I
I ____________I______________ I______
Roger de I I I I
Neville Sir Henry Sir Gerard Robert John
dsp 1370 Soothill Soothill Soothill de Neville
age ca 7 d bef 1376 d. 1410 d. 1428
= Denise = Muriel Salvain
I I________________
_____________I______ ____________I_______
I I I I III
Henry Robert Beatrice Sir Gerard <siblings>
= Sir Thomas of Redbourn
Markenfield and Brearley
d. ca. 1464
I
V


As you noted, MichaelAnne, this would also have onomastic
support with the name Beatrice continuing in the elder line of the
Soothill family.

Cheers, and Happy Holidays to all.

John


NOTES

[1] See SGM threads, <Reginald de Soothill and his descendants
Friday>, <The Soothills and the manor of Redbourne, Lincs.>,
<Soothill of Soothill, co. Yorks., Redbourn, co. Lincs. &
C - Pt I>, and a host of others.



ClaudiusI0@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/22/2005 5:18:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

The particular royal line for Wentworth that appears in RD600 is wrong;
it contains a chronological impossibility and is based on the alleged
Fitzwilliam - Sothill marriage, which crops up as a perennial problem
here (Joan Fitzwilliam, if she is a Fitzwilliam, cannot be daughter of
the parents given to her there). Gary and I went over some other, more
valid royal lines for Wentworth, one of which will probably appear in
Gary's corrigenda to be included with the next printing of RD600. Based
on work Paul began in the 1990s Wentworth has a couple of those
ubiquitous Yorkshire descents from William the Lion and at least one
from Henry II. Paul's work has not been published, though.



The line of Sothill is confusing. It appears that Henry de Sothill [c.
1345-1376] who married Dionysia NN was the father of three children by her:

1.Henry de Sothill [c. 1365-1421] who married Joan FitzWilliam [this is
based on the documentation concerning the manor of Rawtonstall, Yorkshire]. After
Henry's death in 1421 Joan married William Burton as her second husband.
Joan appears to be the daughter of Sir William FitzWilliam by Maud de Cromwell
so GBR is one generation off in his lineage. Joan was born ca. 1380 - 1385
which works as John FitzWilliam the eldest son and heir was born July 25, 1377.

2. Robert de Sothill proven to be Henry's brother by a charter dated 11
Henry IV [1409-1410] naming him as such.

3. Beatrice de Sothill. This is where the chronology would place her and the
onomastic evidence seems likely as she would be the granddaughter of
Beatrice de Neville of Redbourne Manor, co. Lincoln. There is also the fact that
this placement would make Beatrice de Sothill the wife to her step-brother as
Dionysia married Sir Thomas Markenfield as her second husband [and his second
wife]. This did occur in this period when women remarried later in life.

I have seen no hard evidence that proves this theory about Beatrice's
placement but it can be conjectured from the documentation available on her
brothers and parents.

I welcome any pertinent documentation on this.

Sincerely,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Jordan de Thornhill's father-in-law, Richard fitz Roger

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2005 20:47:02

In a message dated 12/23/05 3:44:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< ' Keats-Rohan, 'Belvoir'; cf. Complete Peerage, IX, 578. Roger
Bigod's charter for Rochester cathedral priory referred to his wife
Adeliza and his sons and daughters. The charter was witnessed byWilliam
Bigod our son', Humfrey Bigod, and Gunnora and Matilda our
daughters'. There was no mention here of Hugh and Cecily, nor of
another unnamed child, parent of Roger FitzRichard, lord of Warkworth:
C.T. Clay, The ancestry of the early Lords of Warkworth',
Archaeologia Aeliana, 4th ser., 32 (1954), 68. Hugh and Cecily were
clearly the children of Adeliza de Tosny >>


Can this charter be dated?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Jordan de Thornhill's father-in-law, Richard fitz Roger

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2005 20:54:02

Thank's for that bit I was missing, that Maud (Matilda), wife of William
d'Aubigny, was also daughter of Roger Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk (d 1107).

With that I can add Roger and his ancestors, as ancestors of James Claypoole
the Americn colonist.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Margery/Margaret Foliot/Reinbuedcurt

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2005 20:59:02

In a message dated 12/23/05 10:58:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
forrest@WHIDBEY.COM writes:

<< William Farrer, in his respected 1923 work, "Honors and Knights' Fees"
summarizes this Liberate Roll entry as follows (2:383):
"...On 12 Jul 1203, Geoffrey Fitz-Piers was directed to deliver to Wischard
Leidet the wardship of Margaret Foliot, mother of Richard Foliot, father of
Wischard's wife Margery, and wardship of the said Margery's land, as the
said Richard had it, the said Wischard providing for Margaret the mother in
an honourable way during her life (5). This Margaret may have been a
Beauchamp of Eaton.
...5. 'R. de Liberate', 49." >>


Is this Richard Foliot the same one who married Margery de Stuteville and had
Jordan, 1st Baron Foliot who married Margery de Neumarche ? (d 1330)

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2005 21:30:03

In a message dated 12/22/05 4:54:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ClaudiusI0@aol.com writes:

<< The line of Sothill is confusing. It appears that Henry de Sothill [c.
1345-1376] who married Dionysia NN was the father of three children by her:

Is the name Dionysia (Dionisia) unusual?
Just yesterday I ran across it for the first time as I was adding details of
the ancestry of John, 4th Lord Dinham of Hartland (d 25 Dec 1428)

His great-great-grandmother was Dionisia de Champernoun wife to William de
Botreaux of Boscastle
and this couple were parents to William de Botreaux.

Could this Dionisia be ancestral to your Dionisia ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Bold-Savage marriage

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2005 21:43:01

In a message dated 12/20/05 5:48:41 PM Central Standard Time, WJhonson@aol
..com writes:

<< If, as you say in RPA p. 39 and MCA p. 723 John Savage
IV (who married Katherine Stanley) was "born about 1423
(aged 40 in 1463)," then chronology seems to make it
clear that it was this John Savage who was Dulcie's father.

But what is the evidence that, as you say, John Savage IV
was aged 40 in 1463? >>

In my database I say that when John Savage died 29 Jun 1464 he was "aged 53"
Can someone remind me what is the source for his age ?
If he was really only 53, then the John "born about 1423" could not be his
son.

Will Johnson



RPA, page 638 has this John born 1401-1410 [aged 40 or more in 1450].

Always optimistic--Dave

Gjest

Re: Bold-Savage marriage

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2005 22:16:02

In a message dated 12/23/05 12:42:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, UTZ writes:

<< In my database I say that when John Savage died 29 Jun 1464 he was "aged
53"
Can someone remind me what is the source for his age ?
If he was really only 53, then the John "born about 1423" could not be his
son.

Will Johnson


RPA, page 638 has this John born 1401-1410 [aged 40 or more in 1450].

Always optimistic--Dave >>

Thanks for that Dave. Somehow an error has creeped in on these multiple John
Savage's
I've now removed his age at death.
I have that this John Savage was "of age by 1422" and now "aged 40 or more in
1450"
These two things together would imply he was born 1400/1401 I would think.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Bold-Savage marriage

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 des 2005 22:19:02

Also the idea that John Savage, son of Maud de Swynnerton was born 1400/1
would accord well with the theory that Maud remarried to Sir John Savage, Knt (d
1450), **shortly** after her husband William Ipstones died, which he did in
1399.

I would think it more likely that her widowhood was short as she had a few
minor children to bring up.

Will Johnson

Louise Staley

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 24 des 2005 01:04:51

Dear Will,

I though Dionisia is a form of Denise. In my medieval database of about
7,000 people the name Dionisia/Denise occurs 7 times and is seen in the
Anesty, Champernoun, Dotyn, English, Fitzwilliam, l'Envise and Sampson
families as well as the wife of Osbert le Soor. In my (small sample)
this name occurs with the same frequency as Clarice and Aline but more
often than Agatha, Aveline and Avice (just a sample form the A's).

Louise

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/22/05 4:54:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ClaudiusI0@aol.com writes:

The line of Sothill is confusing. It appears that Henry de Sothill [c.
1345-1376] who married Dionysia NN was the father of three children by her:


Is the name Dionysia (Dionisia) unusual?
Just yesterday I ran across it for the first time as I was adding details of
the ancestry of John, 4th Lord Dinham of Hartland (d 25 Dec 1428)

His great-great-grandmother was Dionisia de Champernoun wife to William de
Botreaux of Boscastle
and this couple were parents to William de Botreaux.

Could this Dionisia be ancestral to your Dionisia ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Soothill Redux (was Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harb

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 des 2005 03:12:51

Dear John,
I have been reviewing the Sothill information and note
that Gerard de Sothill of Redbourne married _________ Salvain (apparently Muriel)
and was lineal ancestor by her to the Sothills of Drax and Everingham. In
your original post you gave Gerard as son of Henry Soothill and Joan. was Joan
actually Beatrice de Neville ?

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Thomas Dilke of Maxstoke Castle d 1600/14

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 des 2005 05:16:02

Will thank you for that very interesting addition.
Might I point out a few things from that same Visitation?
It states that Thomas Dilke was abt 30 in 1619 and his son Thomas was about 4.

This son then would be an addition to Leo's site, since he is only showing
the daughter Katherine (b abt 1616)

Now turning to Anne Fisher, the Visitation states she is eldest dau of Sir
Clement Fisher of Packington, and if I'm reading it correctly, it states that
this Clement died oct 1619 and was buried 13 Jan 1619/20

Now you may be interested to acquaint yourself, since you have done so much
research on the Throckmorton family, that Clement's daughter Lettice married
(abt 19 Jul 1602) to Sir Clement Throckmorton, Knt of Haseley (d 1632)

Also this Anne Fisher, married secondly to Sir Hervey Bagot, 1st Bart b 8 Feb
1590/1 (http://www.genealogics.org, http://www.thepeerage.com) d 27 Dec 1660
(http://www.genealogics.org)

But Will as you're well aware, this Hervey is only three steps to Richard
Cecil, being in fact, his great-grandson

So this link, pulls this entire Fisher family within your research circle.

Now Will at an earlier date you have posted, in fact, the marriage document
of Clement Throckmorton to Lettice Fisher and I reproduce it far below. Please
note the names, Fisher, Littleton, and Repington.

The Visitation states that Sir Clement Fisher's daughter Mary Fisher married
Sir Edward Littleton (MP for Shefford in 1624), and that Sir Clement himself
had married a Mary Repington. dau of Francis Repington and Maud Cotton.

So now, it would appear that all the names in this document can be identified.

Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Warwickshire County Record Office: Craven Family of Combe Abbey
CRAVEN OF COMBE ABBEY
Catalogue Ref. CR8
Creator(s): Craven family of Combe Abbey, Warwickshire
DOCUMENTS OF TITLE: DEEDS AND LEASES
CLAVERDON, HASELEY, HATTON, LANGLEY, PRESTON BAGOT, SHREWLEY, SNITTERFIELD,
SOUTHAM, WOLVERTON AND WOOTTON WAWEN

FILE - Articles of agreement to levy a fine on marriage of Clement
Throckmorton esq. and Lettice Fisher - ref. CR8/58 - date: 19 July [1602]
[from Scope and Content] 1. Clement Throckmorton of Haseley, esq., the
younger. 2. Clement Fisher of Packington Hall, esq.; Clement Throckmorton of
Ansleye, natural uncle of 1. 3. Dorothye Throckmorton, widow, mother of 1. 4. Job
Throckmorton, younger brother of 1. 5. Edward Littleton, son and heir apparent of
Sir Edward Littleton, Kt.; Robert Fisher, son and heir apparent of Clement,;
John Repington, son and heir apparent of Thomas Repington.

Gjest

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 des 2005 20:32:02

Dear Leo, Nat, John, etal.

Here is the lineage of Sothill that was developed over the past two years by
John Ravilious and myself. This is slightly different than what is in the
archives. Please note that William de Sothill married Joan in generation 4 not
his brother Henry. This is shown by:

DD/SR/26/37
3 Edw II [1309-10]
Grant by Henry son of Sir John de Sothill', brother and heir of William de
Sothill', to Joan, widow of William, of the manor of Sothill' etc, with all
William's lands etc in Morlay, Batelay, Heckmundwick', Erdeslawe and
Chiddeshill' (Soothill, Yk Morley, Yk Batley, Yk Heckmondwike, Yk Ardsley, Yk Chidsall,
Yk) as dower Henry to have two thirds and Joan one third of the profits from
thinning the woods: [other conditions are stated]

DD/SR/26/38
3 Edw II [1309-10]
Quitclaim by Richard son of John de Heckmundwyk' (Heckmondwike, Yk) in
favour of Joan widow of William son of John de Sotthyll' of all ameans of rent and
service on the tenement in Heckmundwyk' which her late husband held of
Richards father.

The following AT explains the descent the documentation shows for this
family. I am sorry that I confused you by stating that GBR was one generation off.
What I meant by this statement was that Beatrice Sothill was the sister of
Henry Sothill that married Joan Fitzwilliam not their daughter.

1.Reginald de Sothill
2. John de Sothill
3.Sir John de Sothill [-bef. 1311]
4. Henry de Sothill
5. Henry de Sothill [-bef. 1371]
+ Beatrice de Neville
6. Henry Sothill [ca. 1345-1376]
+ Dionysia [ her second husband was Thomas
Markenfield]
7. Beatrice Sothill
+ Thomas Markenfield [-aft. 1415]
8. Elizabeth Markenfield
+ Walter Calverley, Esq.
[1402-March 5, 1466/7]
9. Joan Calverley [aft. 1457]
+ John Wentworth [aft.
1459]
10. Thomas Wentworth
[1447-1524]
+ Jane Mirfield
[-bef. April 1, 1522]
7. Henry Sothill [ca. 1365 -bef. April 20,
1421]
+ Joan Fitzwilliam [daughter of William
Fitzwilliam and Maud
Cromwell] [ca. 1380-1385 -aft. April
20, 1421]
8. John Sothill
8. Henry Sothill
7. Robert Sothill
6. Sir Gerard Sothill [1352-1410]
+ Maud Salvain
7. Sir Gerard Sothill
8. Richard Sothill
7. John Sothill [ -1445]
+ Joan Poucher [ -1451]
8. John Sothill [- ca. Nov. 28, 1494]
+ Agnes Ingelby [ -bef. 1482]
9. George Sothill [1464-1502]
9. Barbara Sothill
+ Sir Marmaduke Constable [
1478-Sept. 7, 1545]
9.Mary Sothill
+ sir John Normanville
7. Thomas Sothill
7. Joan Sothill
5. Isabel Sothill
+ William de Bosville
5. John Sothill
+ Helen de Moseley
4. William de Sothill
+ Joan
2. William de Sothill

Best regards,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Thomas Dilke of Maxstoke Castle d 1600/14

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 des 2005 21:03:23

Will, I have something that might excite you.

Knowing as I do, that you've found a connection in your research circle to
the Capell family, and that you've know brought in the Fisher's of Maxstoke
through their tie to Hervey Bagot, 1Bnt, of Blithfield. Turn your attention for a
moment to his first wife Katherine. I believe Leo had her surname as
Adersley or something like that, but Burke's Commoners calls her "Adderley".

Katherine Adderley is only four steps from Richard Cecil.
Now look at what Burke's says about her ancestry.
1) Daughter of Humprey Adderley of Harris Hall and his wife Jane Ward dau of
Thomas Ward Esq of Nunthorpe
2) This Humphrey himself the son of Humprey of Weddington, "master of the
wardrobe to Henry VIII, Edward VI and Queens Mary and Elizabeth". His wife
Elizabeth daughter of Richard Capel.

Don't you think it's likely these two Capel families are the same one?
These would tie the Capels into a double, and close relationship to the
Cecils as well.

Will Johnson

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 24 des 2005 22:10:11

In article <25f.435865f.30defbea@aol.com>, ClaudiusI0@aol.com wrote:

Dear Leo, Nat, John, etal.

Here is the lineage of Sothill that was developed over the past two years by
John Ravilious and myself. This is slightly different than what is in the
archives. Please note that William de Sothill married Joan in generation 4
not
his brother Henry. This is shown by:

DD/SR/26/37
3 Edw II [1309-10]
Grant by Henry son of Sir John de Sothill', brother and heir of William de
Sothill', to Joan, widow of William, of the manor of Sothill' etc, with all
William's lands etc in Morlay, Batelay, Heckmundwick', Erdeslawe and
Chiddeshill' (Soothill, Yk Morley, Yk Batley, Yk Heckmondwike, Yk Ardsley, Yk
Chidsall,
Yk) as dower Henry to have two thirds and Joan one third of the profits from
thinning the woods: [other conditions are stated]

DD/SR/26/38
3 Edw II [1309-10]
Quitclaim by Richard son of John de Heckmundwyk' (Heckmondwike, Yk) in
favour of Joan widow of William son of John de Sotthyll' of all ameans of
rent and
service on the tenement in Heckmundwyk' which her late husband held of
Richards father.

The following AT explains the descent the documentation shows for this
family. I am sorry that I confused you by stating that GBR was one generation
off.
What I meant by this statement was that Beatrice Sothill was the sister of
Henry Sothill that married Joan Fitzwilliam not their daughter.

1.Reginald de Sothill
2. John de Sothill
3.Sir John de Sothill [-bef. 1311]
4. Henry de Sothill
5. Henry de Sothill [-bef. 1371]
+ Beatrice de Neville
6. Henry Sothill [ca. 1345-1376]
+ Dionysia [ her second husband was Thomas
Markenfield]
7. Beatrice Sothill
+ Thomas Markenfield [-aft. 1415]
8. Elizabeth Markenfield
+ Walter Calverley, Esq.
[1402-March 5, 1466/7]
9. Joan Calverley [aft.
1457]
+ John Wentworth [aft.
1459]
10. Thomas Wentworth
[1447-1524]
+ Jane Mirfield
[-bef. April 1, 1522]
7. Henry Sothill [ca. 1365 -bef. April 20,
1421]
+ Joan Fitzwilliam [daughter of William
Fitzwilliam and Maud
Cromwell] [ca. 1380-1385 -aft. April
20, 1421]
8. John Sothill
8. Henry Sothill
7. Robert Sothill
6. Sir Gerard Sothill [1352-1410]
+ Maud Salvain
7. Sir Gerard Sothill
8. Richard Sothill
7. John Sothill [ -1445]
+ Joan Poucher [ -1451]
8. John Sothill [- ca. Nov. 28, 1494]
+ Agnes Ingelby [ -bef. 1482]
9. George Sothill [1464-1502]
9. Barbara Sothill
+ Sir Marmaduke Constable [
1478-Sept. 7, 1545]
9.Mary Sothill
+ sir John Normanville
7. Thomas Sothill
7. Joan Sothill
5. Isabel Sothill
+ William de Bosville
5. John Sothill
+ Helen de Moseley
4. William de Sothill
+ Joan
2. William de Sothill

Michael Anne, Thanks for this outline. Joan Fitzwilliam has been, at
least in some pedigrees, placed as wife of one of the earlier
Henrys--that's part of the origin of the confusion.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

my children's 17th-century American immigrant ancestors:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltay ... rantsa.htm

Gjest

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 des 2005 23:33:02

Dear MichaelAnne,
Is Maud Salvain the same person as Muriel
Salvain d 1441, wife of Sir Gerard Sothill of Redbourne who according to John
Ravilious` post of August 4, 2001 "MC line: de Ros , Salvain , Soothill, Lacy,
Farrar " was the daughter of Sir Gerard Salvain of North Duffield, York by his
wife Alice, granddaughter of John Salvain, Great Granddaughter of Sir Gerard
Salvain, Kt. by Agnes Mauleverer, daughter of Robert Mauleverer, 2nd Great
Granddaughter of John Salvain by Margaret de Ros, who was daughter of Robert de
Ros, 1st Baron Ros of Wark by his wife Lora, 3rd Gr gd of Robert de Ros of
Wark by Margaret, daughter of Piers de Brus of Skelton, 4th Gr gd of Robert de
Ros of Wark by Christian Bertram, and 6th Gr gd of Magna Carta Surety Robert
de Ros by Isabel, illegitimate daughter of William I, the Lion, King of Scots.
Has this line since been disproven ?
Sincerely.
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Thomas Dilke of Maxstoke Castle d 1600/14

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 des 2005 23:38:02

In researching this line more, I found a few documents in which "Aston
Cokaine" apepars as a principle. In trying to find how exactly Aston is related to
these other persons (if at all), I did find a correction for Leo.

In Leo's wonderful database here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 2&tree=LEO

we see Sir Aston Cokayne, Baronet and his wife Mary Kniveton
with no dates or ancestry for him.

It just so happens that Aston is exactly 10 steps from Richard Cecil. I
suspect he is actually closer, but cannot yet prove it. Here is the ancestry of
Aston Cokayne, Baronet as I have it so far Comments are appreciated.

Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------
Ancestry of Aston Cokayne b 1608 d Feb 1683/4 [1] [2]
bap 20 Dec 1608 Ashbourne [2]
bur Chancel of Polesworth Church [1]
mar aft 1632 [1]
Anne Knyveton dau of Sir Gilbert Kynveton, Baronet of Mercaston, Derbyshire
(he died 1641/6 [3])
A2A has a document in which Aston appears to call his wife "Mary" so far I
have nothing further on this discrepancy.

2 Thomas Cokayne b 21 Jan 1587 [2] d Abt 26 Jan 1638/1639 Gray's Inn Lane,
London [1] [2]
bur St Gile's Church

3 Anne Stanhope d 29 Aug 1664 Ashbourne [1]

4 Sir Edward Cokayne youngest son [4]

5 Jane Ashby [2]

6 Sir John Stanhope of Elvaston, Derbyshire d 1611 [3]

7 Dorothy Trentham [4] (Leo has an alternate first name for her)

8 Thomas Cokayne b 1519 Eldest son [2][4] d 1592 Aged about 72 [2]
bur 15 Nov 1592 Ashbourne [2]

9 Dorothy Ferrers d 1595 [2] bur at Ashbourne [2]

10 Nicholas Ashby of Willougby-in-the-Wolds, Nottinghamshire [2]

11 NN

12 Thomas Stanhope of Shelford d 3 Aug 1596 [3]

13 Margaret Port b 14 Oct 1542 [3]

14 Thomas Trentham of Rochester [4]

15 NN

Notes
1 Chalmer's Biographical Dictionary, "Cokayne, Aston" online (British
Collection) at http://www.ancestry.com
2 Dictionary of National Biography, "Cokayne, Thomas" online at
http://www.ancestry.com
3 http://www.genealogics.org
4 Dictionary of National Biography, "Cokayne, Aston" online at
http://www.ancestry.com

Douglas Richardson

C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christine Bertr

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 25 des 2005 02:20:19

Dear James ~

It appears you have fallen into one of Complete Peerage's unfortunate
errors. Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 120 (sub Roos) states that Sir
Robert de Roos (died 1269/70), of Wark, Northumberland, married
"(?2ndly), Christine Bertram, dughter of _____ Bertram, and sister and
in her issue coheiress of Roger Bertram." This is wrong. Christine
Bertram's 1st husband was actually Sir Robert de Roos' elder son,
William de Roos, of Mindrum, Northumberland, who died before 1269.
Christine Bertram's second husband was Robert de Penbury, living 1291.

The evidence of Christine Bertram's first marriage comes from a forest
plea
dated the Octaves of St. Hilary 1241, which shows that Sir Robert de
Roos and Sir Roger Bertram had arranged a double marriage between their
children. The plea reads as follows:

"To his worshipful lord Henry, by the grace of God king of England,
lord of Ireland, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and count of Anjou,
[his servant] Thomas of Straton, health and due reverence with
obedience. At another time we made known by letter to you .... that
Sir Robert de Ros had taken in your hand the pleas of herbage, hambling
of dogs and dead wood which belonge to the foresters, where you have no
demesne wood ....

"Also Sir Roger Bertram's men did chase in Chivele in the king's forest
and take a hind and a fawn buck, after the eyre of the justics of the
forest ... They are still to be attached, and, if they were not
attached, they and three hounds of Sir Roger Bertram were taken by the
foresters and by several men of those parts ... Nor, by reason of such
conspiracy and such releases have the foresters been able to do their
office and the king's advantage; and this because the marriages were
pre-arranged, and have no been made, between the son and heir of Sir
Roger [Bertram] and a daughter of Sir Robert [de Ros] on the one part,
and on the other between the son and heir of Sir Robert [de Ros] and a
daughter of Sir Roger [Bertram]." [Reference: Northumberland Pleas from
the Curia Regis and Assize Rolls, 1198-1272 (Pubs. of the Newcastle
upon Tyne Records Committee 2) (1922:) 122-125].

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear MichaelAnne,
Is Maud Salvain the same person as Muriel
Salvain d 1441, wife of Sir Gerard Sothill of Redbourne who according to John
Ravilious` post of August 4, 2001 "MC line: de Ros , Salvain , Soothill, Lacy,
Farrar " was the daughter of Sir Gerard Salvain of North Duffield, York by his
wife Alice, granddaughter of John Salvain, Great Granddaughter of Sir Gerard
Salvain, Kt. by Agnes Mauleverer, daughter of Robert Mauleverer, 2nd Great
Granddaughter of John Salvain by Margaret de Ros, who was daughter of Robert de
Ros, 1st Baron Ros of Wark by his wife Lora, 3rd Gr gd of Robert de Ros of
Wark by Margaret, daughter of Piers de Brus of Skelton, 4th Gr gd of Robert de
Ros of Wark by Christian Bertram, and 6th Gr gd of Magna Carta Surety Robert
de Ros by Isabel, illegitimate daughter of William I, the Lion, King of Scots.
Has this line since been disproven ?
Sincerely.
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Charlemagne descents via Edward I and Eleanorr of Castil

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 des 2005 17:07:02

Dear Francois,
I don`t know who else is on at the moment, but for
myself let me just say merci .
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Leo van de Pas

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 25 des 2005 22:34:01

Dear MichalAnne,

Thank you very much for a very much appreciated message. BUT as happens so many times, you close one door and three others open :-)

I have notes on several other Sothills and they just have to be part of this family. Can you see how?

Thomas Sothill
father of
Elizabeth Sothill, she married Percival Amyas of Netherton
parents of
Margaret Amyas married John Drax



Henry Sothill
father of
Alice Sothill, she married Sir John Harington of Exton
parents of
John Harington who died in 1553



John Sothill, of Sothill, he married Alice Neville
parents of
1.Alice Sothill, she married John Beaumont
2.Thomas Sothill, of Sothill, he married (I) Margery FitzWilliam (2) Elizabeth Saville
he is father of
by 1st wife Elizabeth who married (1) 1517 Sir Henry Savile (2) Richard Gascoigne
by 2nd wife Michael Sothill, he married NN Sandys


I hope you can help with these.
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: ClaudiusI0@aol.com
To: leovdpas@netspeed.com.au ; GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire


Dear Leo, Nat, John, etal.

Here is the lineage of Sothill that was developed over the past two years by John Ravilious and myself. This is slightly different than what is in the archives. Please note that William de Sothill married Joan in generation 4 not his brother Henry. This is shown by:

DD/SR/26/37
3 Edw II [1309-10]
Grant by Henry son of Sir John de Sothill', brother and heir of William de Sothill', to Joan, widow of William, of the manor of Sothill' etc, with all William's lands etc in Morlay, Batelay, Heckmundwick', Erdeslawe and Chiddeshill' (Soothill, Yk Morley, Yk Batley, Yk Heckmondwike, Yk Ardsley, Yk Chidsall, Yk) as dower Henry to have two thirds and Joan one third of the profits from thinning the woods: [other conditions are stated]

DD/SR/26/38
3 Edw II [1309-10]
Quitclaim by Richard son of John de Heckmundwyk' (Heckmondwike, Yk) in favour of Joan widow of William son of John de Sotthyll' of all ameans of rent and service on the tenement in Heckmundwyk' which her late husband held of Richards father.

The following AT explains the descent the documentation shows for this family. I am sorry that I confused you by stating that GBR was one generation off. What I meant by this statement was that Beatrice Sothill was the sister of Henry Sothill that married Joan Fitzwilliam not their daughter.

1.Reginald de Sothill
2. John de Sothill
3.Sir John de Sothill [-bef. 1311]
4. Henry de Sothill
5. Henry de Sothill [-bef. 1371]
+ Beatrice de Neville
6. Henry Sothill [ca. 1345-1376]
+ Dionysia [ her second husband was Thomas Markenfield]
7. Beatrice Sothill
+ Thomas Markenfield [-aft. 1415]
8. Elizabeth Markenfield
+ Walter Calverley, Esq. [1402-March 5, 1466/7]
9. Joan Calverley [aft. 1457]
+ John Wentworth [aft. 1459]
10. Thomas Wentworth [1447-1524]
+ Jane Mirfield [-bef. April 1, 1522]
7. Henry Sothill [ca. 1365 -bef. April 20, 1421]
+ Joan Fitzwilliam [daughter of William Fitzwilliam and Maud
Cromwell] [ca. 1380-1385 -aft. April 20, 1421]
8. John Sothill
8. Henry Sothill
7. Robert Sothill
6. Sir Gerard Sothill [1352-1410]
+ Maud Salvain
7. Sir Gerard Sothill
8. Richard Sothill
7. John Sothill [ -1445]
+ Joan Poucher [ -1451]
8. John Sothill [- ca. Nov. 28, 1494]
+ Agnes Ingelby [ -bef. 1482]
9. George Sothill [1464-1502]
9. Barbara Sothill
+ Sir Marmaduke Constable [ 1478-Sept. 7, 1545]
9.Mary Sothill
+ sir John Normanville
7. Thomas Sothill
7. Joan Sothill
5. Isabel Sothill
+ William de Bosville
5. John Sothill
+ Helen de Moseley
4. William de Sothill
+ Joan
2. William de Sothill

Best regards,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christine B

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 des 2005 22:49:01

Dear Doug,

The entire early Ros line is chaotic. Can you please explain where these
two IPMs fit into the line? From the IPM's it certainly appears that Christine
was the wife of Robert de Ros son of Robert de Ros by his wife Margaret de
Brus.

Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol. II, Edward I, Kraus Reprint, 1973:

Pages 49-50:

70. Robert de Ros of Werk.
Writ, 20 April, 2 Edward I.
Westmoreland. Extent, Monday after the quinzaine of the Holy Trinity, 2
Edward I.
Kyrkeby in Kendale. The castle, manor and town (extent given), including
moieties of the mills of Rospeton, Appeltweht, Kirkeby, Patton, and Dylaker, the
fishery of the force (de Fors), lands &c. in Helsinton, the farms of
Grenering and Hagayl, a meadow called Rispetunhenge, the farms of Beauconquayte,
Staveleye and Stirkele town, the meadow of Leythilde, the farms of Schalqratrig
and Hotun, the farm of tenants in the forest with Schoureschale and
Oxinholme, a slate quarry, part of the forest of Ridale with Satsondalf, Becmelbrid,
and Curkerdale, the farms of Gresmere with a moiety of the mill, and Langeden
with a moiety of the mill and herbage of the forest, Crostweyk with the farm,
herbage, and mill, a moiety of Yverholm (?), the farm of Chefdor, Roger's
Island in Wynendamere, small fisheries above Kirkeby, rent from free tenants of
Westmoreland, &c. The tenants in Kenetemere of John de Bella Aqua, who
married Laderina one of the sisters and heirs of Peter de Brus, no longer do suit
at the fulling mill of Kirkeby, and William de Wynd [eshoure] has raised a
mill a tGrarig to the damage of the mill of Patton.

This manor fell to the pourparty of Margaret de Ros (his wife), younger
daughter (sic) and one of the heirs of Peter de Brus, who held it of the king on
chief.

Writ of certiorari, on the complaint of Sapientia, late the wife of William
de Karliolo the younger, that the escheator had taken into the king's hand
certain lands &c, in Cargou, which the said Robert held for life by her demise,
25 June, 2 Edward I.
[Cumberland] Inq. Wednesday before St. Michael, 2 Edward I.
Cargou. The manor (extent given) was not held of the king in chief, nor by
the demise of Sapientia for life, but the said Robert died vested and seised
thereof in demesne as of fee, and held it of the said Sapientia, rendering her
yearly a falcon or 1 mark of silver, and doing for her the foreign service
pertaining to the king, viz.----32d. cornage at the king's exchequer at
Carlisle.
(See Nos. 133 and 145 and Henry III. No. 800)
C. Edw. I, File 5. (10.)

Page 93:

145. Robert de Ros son of Robert de Ros of Werk.
Writ. Whereas the king understanding that the said Robert held the manor of
Cargou of Sapientia late the wife of William de Karliolo the younger, lately
commanded the wardship of the same be delivered to her, saving to Christiana
late the wife of the said Robert her dower, and so that she should answer to
the king for the issues of the wardship belonging to the king, and that
meanwhile the escheator should enquire whether the said Robert held anything of
the king in chief; and whereas the said Sapientia died, bequeathing the said
wardship to Geoffrey de Tyllol, and the escheator took the same into the king's
hand, but has not yet made inquisition; the escheator is commanded to
enquire whether the said Robert held anything by which the wardship of his lands
ought to pertain to the king. 2 May, 3 Edward I.

Cumberland. Inq. The morrow of Holy Trinity, 3 Edward I.
Cargou. The manor was held by the said Robert of the said Sapientia, and his
reeve paid 32d. yearly cornage at the king's exchequer at Carlisle for her,
but he held nothing of the king in chief, and did no other service to the
king.

(See No.
70)
C. Edw. I. File 11. (5.)


Sincerely,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 des 2005 22:50:03

In a message dated 12/24/2005 4:15:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

Michael Anne, Thanks for this outline. Joan Fitzwilliam has been, at
least in some pedigrees, placed as wife of one of the earlier
Henrys--that's part of the origin of the confusion.

Nat Taylor




Dear Nat,

You are very welcome. The Sothill line is still far from complete as is
evidenced by Leo's posting. Thank you for all your input on this line.

Sincerely,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Michael Wentworth of Little Harbor, New Hampshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 des 2005 23:29:02

In a message dated 12/25/2005 4:33:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

John Sothill, of Sothill, he married Alice Neville
parents of
1. Alice Sothill, she married John Beaumont
2. Thomas Sothill, of Sothill, he married (I) Margery FitzWilliam (2)
Elizabeth Saville
he is father of
by 1st wife Elizabeth who married (1) 1517 Sir Henry Savile (2) Richard
Gascoigne
by 2nd wife Michael Sothill, he married NN Sandys



Dear Leo,

I can only speculate on this lineage out of all three you asked about. This
one based on the property descent seems to be:

Henry Sothill
+ Joan FitzWilliam
John Sothill

+ Alice Mauleverer
John Sothill [-bef. June 16, 1485]
+ NN
John Sothill [-Sept. 28, 1498]
+ Alice Neville
Thomas Sothill

The line from John Sothill who married NN can be documented. The problem
with this line is proving that John Sothill who married Alice Mauleverer is the
same as John Sothill the eldest son and heir of Henry Sothill of Sothill who
was named in his will in 1421. John Sothill was still a minor in 1421 and was
given livery of his lands before 1430. The sole proof of this link is the
fact that John Sothill [died bef. June 16, 1485] was quitclaimed the manor of
Sothill, co. York by William Mirfield in 34 Henry VI [1455-6] who was the
executor of Henry Sothill's will of 1421.

I have no proof of how the other two branches fit into the Sothill family. I
hope this helps a little.

Sincerely,
MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Bourchier question

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 des 2005 04:05:02

Leo, plugging in the extremely odd name of "Barrington Bourchier" into
WorldConnect we get one, for a man who married Frances Strickland. Then using this
we find this page.

http://www.manninghouse.co.uk/FamilyTre ... erdale.htm

From which a small relevant quote:
"Sir William Bourchier, who died insane, was succeeded in the property [Kirby
Underdale] by his son Sir John Bourchier, who was a member of the Long
Parliament in the reign of Charles I., and was one of the Regicides, who sentenced
the King to death in 1649. His son, Sir Barrington Bourchier, who married
Frances daughter of Thomas Strickland, of Boynton, settled the Kirby Underdale
property on his wife. He was high sheriff of Yorkshire in 1660...."

Gjest

Re: Bourchier question

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 des 2005 05:16:02

From what I'm gleaning, it appears this line is an illegitimate line off John
Bourchier, 2nd Lord Berners by a mistress that some sites name as an
Elizabeth Bacon.

See in particular http://www.thepeerage.com

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Bourchier question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 26 des 2005 05:17:02

Dear Will,

I feel quite stupid. Most of these Bourchiers are already in my website. The
reason for the confusion is that Sir John Bourchier (ca.1595-1660) regicide
and grandson of Sir Ralph Bourchier, of Benningborough (as in DNB) seems to
be the same as Sir James Bourchier, of Benningborough, who died in 1659
according to Ruvigny's Blood Royal, Clarence volume.
Thanks for steering me into the right direction.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: Bourchier question


Leo, plugging in the extremely odd name of "Barrington Bourchier" into
WorldConnect we get one, for a man who married Frances Strickland. Then
using this
we find this page.

http://www.manninghouse.co.uk/FamilyTre ... erdale.htm

From which a small relevant quote:
"Sir William Bourchier, who died insane, was succeeded in the property
[Kirby
Underdale] by his son Sir John Bourchier, who was a member of the Long
Parliament in the reign of Charles I., and was one of the Regicides, who
sentenced
the King to death in 1649. His son, Sir Barrington Bourchier, who
married
Frances daughter of Thomas Strickland, of Boynton, settled the Kirby
Underdale
property on his wife. He was high sheriff of Yorkshire in 1660...."


Gjest

Re: Bourchier question

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 des 2005 05:17:08

Leo I found a primary document which adds a few details

East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: HOWARD-VYSE FAMILY OF
LANGTON HALL
HOWARD-VYSE FAMILY OF LANGTON HALL
Catalogue Ref. DDHV
Creator(s): Howard-Vyse family of Langton Hall

North Riding
Various townships

FILE - Lease and release - ref. DDHV/50/7 - date: 19-20 Jan 1680
[from Scope and Content] Parties: 1) Barrington Bourchier of Beninbrough
Grange, esquire 2) his son Sir Barrington Bourchier Property: manor and capital
messuage of Beningbrough Grange, parish of Newton upon Ouse westmores in
parishes of Easingwold and Huby. Rectory, advowson and tithes of Newton upon Ouse.
All property in Newton upon Ouse and Beningbrough. Manor, rectory, advowson and
tithes of Overton, Manor of Shipton. Moiety of Manor of Hanging Grimston.
Villages of Kirby Underdale and Painstropp Consideration: Sir Barrington Bourchier
to pay scheduled debts of his father, and pay him an annuity of £200
Witnesses: Willliam Lister, Nicholas Martindaile, John Walkington

Leo van de Pas

Re: Bourchier question

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 26 des 2005 05:20:02

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: Bourchier question


From what I'm gleaning, it appears this line is an illegitimate line off
John
Bourchier, 2nd Lord Berners by a mistress that some sites name as an
Elizabeth Bacon.

See in particular http://www.thepeerage.com

Will Johnson
Dear Will,

I find this site great, but not so easy to follow, which is my fault. But if
we combine GBR 600 immigrants with Ruvigny's Blood Royal, Clarence Volume, I
wonder whether we can connect correctly.

GBR 600 immigrants, page 182
6.John Bourchier, Baron Berners = Catherine Howard
7.(illegitimate by Elizabeth Bacon) Sir James Bourchier = Mary Banister
8.Sir Ralph Bourchier = Elizabeth Hall
9.Sir John Bourchier = Elizabeth

8.Sir Ralph is this the same as Sir Ralph Bourchier of Benningborough, whose
heir is his grandson Sir John ca.1595-1660 the regicide?

You found
Sir William Bourchier, who died insane, was succeeded in the property of
Kirby Underdale by his son Sir John Bourchier (etc) the regicide.

Sadly I see nowhere mentioned when Sir Ralph died, did he outlive his son
the insane William? Did Sir John the regicide inherit from his father while
his grandfather was still alive?

Ruvigny, in his Clarence Volume Table LXIV
Here we find
Catherine Barrington (with royal ancestors) married in 1584 William
Bourchier of Benningborough, born ca.1559. He is not shown as a Sir, and no
idication of his parents or when he died.
Catherine Barrington and William Bourchier had the following children
1.Sir James (surely John, the regicide) Bourchier, of Benningborough,
married Anne Rolf
they are shown with two children, Bridget and Barrington Bourchier who
married Francis Strickland
2.Thomas Bourchier, married Elizabeth Pickering and had at least one child
3.Winifred Bourchier, married NN Lister
4.Elizabeth Bourchier, married William Scudamore
5.Anne Bourchier, married John Scudamore

Looks likely to me. What do you think?
Leo

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christine B

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 26 des 2005 10:17:58

Dear MichaelAnne ~

There is nothing chaotic about the early Roos family of Wark,
Northumberland at all. This family is well covered by Hedley,
Northumberland Families (1968), pp. 224-229, which work you evidently
have not seen. Hedley provides adequate evidence to prove that William
de Roos, of Mindrum, Northumberland (died before 1269) [elder son and
heir apparent of Sir Robert de Roos of Wark, Northumberland (died
1267/69)] married in or before 1241 Christine Bertram. They had two
sons, Robert and William (both of whom died without issue), and
evidently two daughters, _____ (wife of John Archer) and Joan (wife of
Walter Wetwange). Christine Bertram survived William de Roos and
married (2nd) Robert de Penbury (living 1291), by which marriage she
had a son, Ely de Penbury. Christine was living in 1294.

Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 121, footnote b (sub Ros), indicates that
the first IPM you quoted in your post is for this William de Roos'
younger brother, Robert de Roos the younger, of Wark, Northumberland,
who died shortly before 20 April 1274. Robert de Roos the younger
married Margaret de Brus, sister and co-heiress of Peter de Brus, of
Skelton, Yorkshire. This IPM clearly states that Robert de Roos the
younger (died 1274) was seised of the manor of Cargou, Cumberland at
the time of his death.

I assume that the second IPM you have quoted is also for Robert de Roos
the younger, as it concerns the same property, Cargou, Cumberland,
which was covered by the first IPM. The second IPM states that dower in
Cargou, Cumberland was saved for "Christiana late the wife of the said
Robert [de Ros]." Since the "said Robert" de Ros was the clearly the
same individual who had died the previous year survived by a wife named
Margaret, it appears that the 2nd IPM incorrectly referred to Robert's
widow as Christiana. The widow of Robert de Roos the younger was
clearly Margaret de Brus, who survived him many years and died in 1307.

Incidentally, you have brought my attention to another unfortunate
error in Complete Peerage. C.P. 11 (1949): 121 (sub Ros) states that
Robert de Roos, of Wark (died 1274) was the "son and heir" of Robert de
Roos, of Wark (died 1267/9). However, the evidence presented on the
preceding pg. 120, footnote i, clearly indicates that Robert de Roos
(died 1274) was actually the younger son of Robert de Roos (died
1267/9). Among various pieces of evidence discussed, it quotes a plea
of Quo Warranto which shows that Robert de Roos [III] was forced to
surrender his claim to free warren, market, and fair at Wark to the
king in 1292-3, because his father [Robert de Roos the younger, died
1274] was "the younger son" of Robert de Roos the elder [died 1267/9],
who had originally been granted Wark by the king.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

ClaudiusI0@aol.com wrote:
Dear Doug,

The entire early Ros line is chaotic. Can you please explain where these
two IPMs fit into the line? From the IPM's it certainly appears that Christine
was the wife of Robert de Ros son of Robert de Ros by his wife Margaret de
Brus.

Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol. II, Edward I, Kraus Reprint, 1973:

Pages 49-50:

70. Robert de Ros of Werk.
Writ, 20 April, 2 Edward I.
Westmoreland. Extent, Monday after the quinzaine of the Holy Trinity, 2
Edward I.
Kyrkeby in Kendale. The castle, manor and town (extent given), including
moieties of the mills of Rospeton, Appeltweht, Kirkeby, Patton, and Dylaker, the
fishery of the force (de Fors), lands &c. in Helsinton, the farms of
Grenering and Hagayl, a meadow called Rispetunhenge, the farms of Beauconquayte,
Staveleye and Stirkele town, the meadow of Leythilde, the farms of Schalqratrig
and Hotun, the farm of tenants in the forest with Schoureschale and
Oxinholme, a slate quarry, part of the forest of Ridale with Satsondalf, Becmelbrid,
and Curkerdale, the farms of Gresmere with a moiety of the mill, and Langeden
with a moiety of the mill and herbage of the forest, Crostweyk with the farm,
herbage, and mill, a moiety of Yverholm (?), the farm of Chefdor, Roger's
Island in Wynendamere, small fisheries above Kirkeby, rent from free tenants of
Westmoreland, &c. The tenants in Kenetemere of John de Bella Aqua, who
married Laderina one of the sisters and heirs of Peter de Brus, no longer do suit
at the fulling mill of Kirkeby, and William de Wynd [eshoure] has raised a
mill a tGrarig to the damage of the mill of Patton.

This manor fell to the pourparty of Margaret de Ros (his wife), younger
daughter (sic) and one of the heirs of Peter de Brus, who held it of the king on
chief.

Writ of certiorari, on the complaint of Sapientia, late the wife of William
de Karliolo the younger, that the escheator had taken into the king's hand
certain lands &c, in Cargou, which the said Robert held for life by her demise,
25 June, 2 Edward I.
[Cumberland] Inq. Wednesday before St. Michael, 2 Edward I.
Cargou. The manor (extent given) was not held of the king in chief, nor by
the demise of Sapientia for life, but the said Robert died vested and seised
thereof in demesne as of fee, and held it of the said Sapientia, rendering her
yearly a falcon or 1 mark of silver, and doing for her the foreign service
pertaining to the king, viz.----32d. cornage at the king's exchequer at
Carlisle.
(See Nos. 133 and 145 and Henry III. No. 800)
C. Edw. I, File 5. (10.)

Page 93:

145. Robert de Ros son of Robert de Ros of Werk.
Writ. Whereas the king understanding that the said Robert held the manor of
Cargou of Sapientia late the wife of William de Karliolo the younger, lately
commanded the wardship of the same be delivered to her, saving to Christiana
late the wife of the said Robert her dower, and so that she should answer to
the king for the issues of the wardship belonging to the king, and that
meanwhile the escheator should enquire whether the said Robert held anything of
the king in chief; and whereas the said Sapientia died, bequeathing the said
wardship to Geoffrey de Tyllol, and the escheator took the same into the king's
hand, but has not yet made inquisition; the escheator is commanded to
enquire whether the said Robert held anything by which the wardship of his lands
ought to pertain to the king. 2 May, 3 Edward I.

Cumberland. Inq. The morrow of Holy Trinity, 3 Edward I.
Cargou. The manor was held by the said Robert of the said Sapientia, and his
reeve paid 32d. yearly cornage at the king's exchequer at Carlisle for her,
but he held nothing of the king in chief, and did no other service to the
king.

(See No.
70)
C. Edw. I. File 11. (5.)


Sincerely,
MichaelAnne

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christine B

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 26 des 2005 11:46:44

Douglas Richardson wrote:
There is nothing chaotic about the early Roos family of Wark,
Northumberland at all. This family is well covered by Hedley,
Northumberland Families (1968), pp. 224-229, which work you evidently
have not seen.


The problem is that there is that one piece of evidence cited by
MichaelAnne - the IPM mentioning a Christiana as widow of "Robert de Ros,
son of Robert de Ros of Werk" - which cannot be reconciled with Hedley's
solution. There is also an associated entry on the fine roll (Cal. Fine
Rolls i 32; cited by Complete Peerage) that says the same thing.

This is why several different reconstructions of the family have been
published - one in Complete Peerage, which makes Christine Bertram the wife
of Robert, the father of Robert the husband of Margaret, and another in
History of Northumberland, which makes her the wife of Robert, the son of
Robert and Margaret. Then there is Hedley, who makes her the wife of
William, the brother of Robert the husband of Margaret.

The unfortunate thing is that Hedley doesn't comment on the problematic
inquisition at all, so it's not clear whether he was even aware of the
difficulty.

I think on the whole Hedley's solution does make most sense, and the
references to a Christiana widow of Robert probably have to be set aside as
an error. But it would be nice to have some definite proof that the Robert
of this IPM was the husband of Margaret. The manor of Cargo later passed to
Ros of Kendal, descendants of William, the younger son of Robert and
Margaret, but it doesn't seem to be known how or when it first came to the
family.

Chris Phillips

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christine B

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 26 des 2005 19:41:03

To be fair to Hedley, you're leaving out some of the evidence which
makes it absolutely certain that Christine Bertram married William de
Roos (died before 1269), rather than his father, Robert de Roos the
elder (died 1267/9). I've already cited the forest plea of 1241 which
shows it was the SON AND HEIR of Robert de Roos the elder who married
the Bertram girl, not Robert himself. I've also cited the Quo Warranto
plea of 1292-3 which shows that Robert de Roos' surviving son, Robert
the younger, was actually his younger son, NOT his eldest son as
alleged by Complete Peerage. Taking these two records together, it is
clear that NEITHER Robert de Roos the elder NOR his younger son, Robert
de Roos the younger, could have married Christine Bertram. I'll be
glad to repost both of these records again if that would help you.

Again, to be fair to Hedley, there are abundant records to prove that
Robert de Roos the younger married Margaret de Brus, who survived him.
As such, if Hedley saw the second IPM in question which referred to
Robert the younger's widow as "Christiana," I assume he correctly
concluded it was a simple clerical error.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Chris Phillips wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
There is nothing chaotic about the early Roos family of Wark,
Northumberland at all. This family is well covered by Hedley,
Northumberland Families (1968), pp. 224-229, which work you evidently
have not seen.


The problem is that there is that one piece of evidence cited by
MichaelAnne - the IPM mentioning a Christiana as widow of "Robert de Ros,
son of Robert de Ros of Werk" - which cannot be reconciled with Hedley's
solution. There is also an associated entry on the fine roll (Cal. Fine
Rolls i 32; cited by Complete Peerage) that says the same thing.

This is why several different reconstructions of the family have been
published - one in Complete Peerage, which makes Christine Bertram the wife
of Robert, the father of Robert the husband of Margaret, and another in
History of Northumberland, which makes her the wife of Robert, the son of
Robert and Margaret. Then there is Hedley, who makes her the wife of
William, the brother of Robert the husband of Margaret.

The unfortunate thing is that Hedley doesn't comment on the problematic
inquisition at all, so it's not clear whether he was even aware of the
difficulty.

I think on the whole Hedley's solution does make most sense, and the
references to a Christiana widow of Robert probably have to be set aside as
an error. But it would be nice to have some definite proof that the Robert
of this IPM was the husband of Margaret. The manor of Cargo later passed to
Ros of Kendal, descendants of William, the younger son of Robert and
Margaret, but it doesn't seem to be known how or when it first came to the
family.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christin(La

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 des 2005 23:54:15

Good Evening Chris,
In your last paragraph you mentioned you wondered how the Barony of
Kendal passed to the Ros family of Kendal. Well, William de Lancaster
III,who died without issue,his eldest sister, married Peter de Brus,
whose Grandson, Peter de Brus of Skelton, held the Barony of Kendal,
died without issue, the Barony passed to his 3rd oldest sister
Margaret, who married Robert de Ros, who's family henceforth held the
Barony of Kendal, etc.
Hope this helps some.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler



Chris Phillips wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
There is nothing chaotic about the early Roos family of Wark,
Northumberland at all. This family is well covered by Hedley,
Northumberland Families (1968), pp. 224-229, which work you evidently
have not seen.


The problem is that there is that one piece of evidence cited by
MichaelAnne - the IPM mentioning a Christiana as widow of "Robert de Ros,
son of Robert de Ros of Werk" - which cannot be reconciled with Hedley's
solution. There is also an associated entry on the fine roll (Cal. Fine
Rolls i 32; cited by Complete Peerage) that says the same thing.

This is why several different reconstructions of the family have been
published - one in Complete Peerage, which makes Christine Bertram the wife
of Robert, the father of Robert the husband of Margaret, and another in
History of Northumberland, which makes her the wife of Robert, the son of
Robert and Margaret. Then there is Hedley, who makes her the wife of
William, the brother of Robert the husband of Margaret.

The unfortunate thing is that Hedley doesn't comment on the problematic
inquisition at all, so it's not clear whether he was even aware of the
difficulty.

I think on the whole Hedley's solution does make most sense, and the
references to a Christiana widow of Robert probably have to be set aside as
an error. But it would be nice to have some definite proof that the Robert
of this IPM was the husband of Margaret. The manor of Cargo later passed to
Ros of Kendal, descendants of William, the younger son of Robert and
Margaret, but it doesn't seem to be known how or when it first came to the
family.

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christine B

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 26 des 2005 23:55:45

Douglas Richardson wrote:
To be fair to Hedley, you're leaving out some of the evidence which
makes it absolutely certain that Christine Bertram married William de
Roos (died before 1269), rather than his father, Robert de Roos the
elder (died 1267/9). I've already cited the forest plea of 1241 which
shows it was the SON AND HEIR of Robert de Roos the elder who married
the Bertram girl, not Robert himself.

I think "absolutely certain" may be putting it a bit strongly, as the 1241
record doesn't actually name either of the parties. (After all, Robert de
Ros may have had other sons we don't know about.)

But as I said, taking all the evidence together, I do think Hedley is
probably correct that William de Ros married Christine Bertram.

I've also cited the Quo Warranto
plea of 1292-3 which shows that Robert de Roos' surviving son, Robert
the younger, was actually his younger son, NOT his eldest son as
alleged by Complete Peerage.

I think that's rather an odd way of putting it, seeing that the Quo Warranto
evidence is discussed in detail by the author of the Complete Peerage
account, who clearly did understand the implication that Robert was a
younger son.

Taking these two records together, it is
clear that NEITHER Robert de Roos the elder NOR his younger son, Robert
de Roos the younger, could have married Christine Bertram. I'll be
glad to repost both of these records again if that would help you.

If you have the Latin text of the Quo Warranto entry that would be useful,
as I didn't have time to copy that when I looked at it in the library.

Again, to be fair to Hedley, there are abundant records to prove that
Robert de Roos the younger married Margaret de Brus, who survived him.
As such, if Hedley saw the second IPM in question which referred to
Robert the younger's widow as "Christiana," I assume he correctly
concluded it was a simple clerical error.

Obviously if it's the case that the second IPM refers to the same Robert who
left a widow Margaret, then there must have been an error, as he couldn't
also have left a widow Christiana.

To my mind it seems likely that it does refer to the same Robert, but of
course the authors of Complete Peerage and History of Northumberland had
seen the same inquisition evidence, but came to different conclusions. The
reason is that with so many Roberts, all sons of Roberts, and so few firm
data about their dates of death or ages, it is sometimes difficult to know
which one is being referred to.

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christin(La

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 27 des 2005 00:02:13

Emmett L. Butler wrote:
In your last paragraph you mentioned you wondered how the Barony of
Kendal passed to the Ros family of Kendal.

Sorry, I mustn't have made myself very clear.

I think it is clear enough how the barony of Kendal passed to the Ros family
of Kendal.

I was just noting that the manor of Cargo, with which the inquisition that
mentions Christine is concerned, likewise passed to the Ros family of
Kendal.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Bourchier question

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 des 2005 00:44:02

In a message dated 12/25/05 8:12:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< Ruvigny, in his Clarence Volume Table LXIV
Here we find
Catherine Barrington (with royal ancestors) married in 1584 William
Bourchier of Benningborough, born ca.1559. He is not shown as a Sir, and no
idication of his parents or when he died.
Catherine Barrington and William Bourchier had the following children
1.Sir James (surely John, the regicide) Bourchier, of Benningborough,
married Anne Rolf
they are shown with two children, Bridget and Barrington Bourchier who
married Francis Strickland
2.Thomas Bourchier, married Elizabeth Pickering and had at least one child
3.Winifred Bourchier, married NN Lister
4.Elizabeth Bourchier, married William Scudamore
5.Anne Bourchier, married John Scudamore >>


Yes I think that Ralph Bourchier of Beninborough is the same one who married
Elizabeth Hall (said to be daughter of Francis Hall of Grantham and his wife
Ursula Sherington) and thus parents of both William de Bourcher who went insane
and Sir John Bourchier of Hanging Grimstone, York (second son and who has IPM
in 1619)

As for NN Lister above, husband of Winifred, I wonder if he could be the
William Lister who appears as a witness to a least and release in 1680 which I
previously posted.

By the way, I tried to find these families by search A2A for "Hanging
Grimstone" and also for "Kirby Underwood" and didn't get much that way.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: John Broughton ---> Nicholas, Baron Vaux, line is broken

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 des 2005 01:09:07

Throwing this line against OneWorldTree it appears the concensus is that
Sir William Sapcote, who married Anne Semark
is the son of
John Sapcote (Sapcotes) who married the widow Elizabeth Dinham, previously
married to Fulk Bourchier, 2nd Lord FitzWarin (b 1445 d 1479)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: John Broughton ---> Nicholas, Baron Vaux, line is broken

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 des 2005 01:14:42

In a message dated 12/26/05 3:09:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

<<<< Throwing this line against OneWorldTree it appears the concensus is that
Sir William Sapcote, who married Anne Semark
is the son of
John Sapcote (Sapcotes) who married the widow Elizabeth Dinham, previously
married to Fulk Bourchier, 2nd Lord FitzWarin (b 1445 d 1479)

Will Johnson >>>>


I have to correct my correction.... because this does not work either.
By chronology Sir William Sapcote, must be contemporary with the children
that Elizabeth was *already* having by Fulk and so unless illegitimate he cannot
be hers. Fulk died long *after* William had to have been born. William could
however be a son from a previous marriage of John's I suppose.

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christine B

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 des 2005 03:36:03

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my earlier post yesterday, I stated that Complete Peerage
erroneously identified Robert de Roos the younger (died 1274) as the
son and heir of his father, Robert de Roos the elder (died 1267/69). I
erred in that statement. Complete Peerage correctly states that Robert
de Roos the younger was a "younger son" of Robert de Roos the elder.
Mea culpa. My error was caused by confusing Complete Peerage's
statements about Robert de Roos the younger, with those made about his
son, Robert de Roos III. Too many Robert de Roos'es!

Regardless, my comments about Robert de Roos the younger being a
younger son stilll stand as evidence that he could not have married
Christine Bertram. We know this because the forest plea of 1241 states
that it was the eldest son and heir of Robert de Roos the elder who
married the Bertram girl. Robert de Roos the younger being a younger
son could obviously not be that son so married, only his eldest brother
then living.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear MichaelAnne ~

There is nothing chaotic about the early Roos family of Wark,
Northumberland at all. This family is well covered by Hedley,
Northumberland Families (1968), pp. 224-229, which work you evidently
have not seen. Hedley provides adequate evidence to prove that William
de Roos, of Mindrum, Northumberland (died before 1269) [elder son and
heir apparent of Sir Robert de Roos of Wark, Northumberland (died
1267/69)] married in or before 1241 Christine Bertram. They had two
sons, Robert and William (both of whom died without issue), and
evidently two daughters, _____ (wife of John Archer) and Joan (wife of
Walter Wetwange). Christine Bertram survived William de Roos and
married (2nd) Robert de Penbury (living 1291), by which marriage she
had a son, Ely de Penbury. Christine was living in 1294.

Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 121, footnote b (sub Ros), indicates that
the first IPM you quoted in your post is for this William de Roos'
younger brother, Robert de Roos the younger, of Wark, Northumberland,
who died shortly before 20 April 1274. Robert de Roos the younger
married Margaret de Brus, sister and co-heiress of Peter de Brus, of
Skelton, Yorkshire. This IPM clearly states that Robert de Roos the
younger (died 1274) was seised of the manor of Cargou, Cumberland at
the time of his death.

I assume that the second IPM you have quoted is also for Robert de Roos
the younger, as it concerns the same property, Cargou, Cumberland,
which was covered by the first IPM. The second IPM states that dower in
Cargou, Cumberland was saved for "Christiana late the wife of the said
Robert [de Ros]." Since the "said Robert" de Ros was the clearly the
same individual who had died the previous year survived by a wife named
Margaret, it appears that the 2nd IPM incorrectly referred to Robert's
widow as Christiana. The widow of Robert de Roos the younger was
clearly Margaret de Brus, who survived him many years and died in 1307.

Incidentally, you have brought my attention to another unfortunate
error in Complete Peerage. C.P. 11 (1949): 121 (sub Ros) states that
Robert de Roos, of Wark (died 1274) was the "son and heir" of Robert de
Roos, of Wark (died 1267/9). However, the evidence presented on the
preceding pg. 120, footnote i, clearly indicates that Robert de Roos
(died 1274) was actually the younger son of Robert de Roos (died
1267/9). Among various pieces of evidence discussed, it quotes a plea
of Quo Warranto which shows that Robert de Roos [III] was forced to
surrender his claim to free warren, market, and fair at Wark to the
king in 1292-3, because his father [Robert de Roos the younger, died
1274] was "the younger son" of Robert de Roos the elder [died 1267/9],
who had originally been granted Wark by the king.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Gjest

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christine B

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 des 2005 03:59:02

In a message dated 12/26/05 10:46:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< I've already cited the forest plea of 1241 which
shows it was the SON AND HEIR of Robert de Roos the elder who married
the Bertram girl, not Robert himself. >>

Doesn't it actually just say that there was an arrangement for the two
children to marry but that they didn't?

Douglas Richardson

Re: C.P. Correction: William de Roos, husband of Christine B

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 des 2005 04:30:59

Will ~

This is the specific language of the 1241 Forest Plea involving the
double marriage between the children of Sir Robert de Roos of Wark and
Sir Roger Bertram.

In my earlier transcript of this record, I appear to have typed the
words "have now been made" incorrectly as "have no been made." If my
typo confused you, I apologize. The correct wording appears below.
The plea indicates that the two marriages had been pre-arranged and had
taken place.

DR

+ + + + + + + + + + +
"To his worshipful lord Henry, by the grace of God king of England,
lord of Ireland, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and count of Anjou,
[his servant] Thomas of Straton, health and due reverence with
obedience. At another time we made known by letter to you .... that
Sir Robert de Ros had taken in your hand the pleas of herbage, hambling
of dogs and dead wood which belonge to the foresters, where you have no
demesne wood ....

"Also Sir Roger Bertram's men did chase in Chivele in the king's forest
and take a hind and a fawn buck, after the eyre of the justics of the
forest ... They are still to be attached, and, if they were not
attached, they and three hounds of Sir Roger Bertram were taken by the
foresters and by several men of those parts ... Nor, by reason of such
conspiracy and such releases have the foresters been able to do their
office and the king's advantage; and this because the marriages were
pre-arranged, and have now been made, between the son and heir of Sir
Roger [Bertram] and a daughter of Sir Robert [de Ros] on the one part,
and on the other between the son and heir of Sir Robert [de Ros] and a
daughter of Sir Roger [Bertram]." [Reference: Northumberland Pleas
from the Curia Regis and Assize Rolls, 1198-1272 (Pubs. of the
Newcastle upon Tyne Records Committee 2) (1922): 122, 125].

Gjest

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 des 2005 17:45:03

Following the original thread, 11 King John should be 11 Henry III and Mary
was probably sister not daughter of Ela, although that would require a
correction to CP Vol XI, p 379. Note that Wm Longespee was only earl in right of
his wife. I know that where William is the subject of a deed etc., he has
been refered to Earl of Salisbury, but when the subject is his assumed issue, I
would have expected the reference to the earldom of Salisbury would be to her
mother, unless the reference is to Ela's father William who carried the
title in his own right.

Adrian



In a message dated 27/12/2005 00:15:33 GMT Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Douglas Richardson wrote;


Dear Newsgroup ~


Sometime ago, Linda Jack posted a record pertaining to the marriage of
Mary Longespée, a hitherto unnoticed daughter of William Longespée,
Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England). A
copy of Linda's good message is copied below. In her post, Linda Jack
cited a record which mentions Mary Longespée's marriage c. 1226/7, but
the name of Mary Longespée's husband is unknown.

I haven't encountered any further reference to Mary Longespée in my
research. However, it seems entirely possible to me that Mary
Longespée was the unknown wife of Sir Robert de Roos (died 1267/69),
of Wark, Northumberland. Among other things, I note that Sir Robert de
Roos had a daughter, Ida de Roos, wife successively of Roger Bertram
(living 1272), Robert de Neville (died 1282), and John Fitz Marmaduke.
The name, Ida, is a well known given name which runs in the Longespée
family. Its occurence among the children of Sir Robert de Roos is
certainly a good clue to the identity of his wife. The given name,
Mary, also appears among Sir Robert de Roos' Merlay grandchildren,
which evidence is also suggestive, as the name Mary was a bit rare in
this time period among high born families.

Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 119, footnote g (sub Ros) indicates that
Sir Robert de Roos had Wark, Northumberland settled on him and his
heirs by a lawful wife by his father in 1225-1226, which grant was
confirmed by King Henry III 15 August 1227. The settlement of Wark was
possibly made in anticipation of Sir Robert de Roos' marriage. If so,
it would seems that Sir Robert de Roos married about the same time as
did Mary Longespée.

One caveat. Linda Jack states that Mary Longespée married in 1226-7,
but elsewhere she says the record she cites is from 11 John. 11 John
would be 1210-11, not 1226-7. Perhaps Linda Jack can explain this
discrepancy for us.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF LINDA JACK'S EARLIER POST

Linda Jack <linda_j...@earthlink.net>

I think that I have run across another daughter of William Longespee, a
daughter Mary, who was apparently married in 1226-1227. The source is
Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum in Turri Londinensi, vol II, 1844, Thos
Hardy, ed. , p. 200. The item reads something to the effect of "The
baliffs of John de Monem in the New Forest are ordered to give Ela
Countess of Salisbury one deer in their baliwick as a gift of the Lord
King at the marriage of Mary the daughter of William former earl of
Salisbury." I can't reproduce the correct marks, but the Latin is an
approximation of " D' damo dato. Mand' est Ballis Jonis de Monem de
Nova Foresta qd hre fac Ele Comitsse Sarr j. damu i balla sua de dono
dui R. ad. nuptias Marie fil W. q nda Com Sarr. T. ut s." If anyone
has the original at hand, a check on the translation would be
appreciated.

The entry is for the 11th year of John's reign which I understand to
have begun on October 28,1226 so this would have been after
Longespee's
death, yet it seems odd that a daughter, Mary, has not surfaced
before. Has anyone seen her before? Any possible husbands at the
time
of this marriage? I am working from a photocopy I made some time ago,
so I don't have the source at hand to see if there are any other
records
around the same time that may shed some light on Mary.

Thanks for any suggestions, Linda

<<<<

Gjest

Re: Bold-Savage marriage

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 des 2005 18:16:01

_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Bold-Savage marriage_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1135033426)

Brice, Will, et al~

Sir Peter Leycester (1614-1678) in Some Antiquities Touching Cheshire
Faithfully Collected out of Authentique Hiftories, Old Deeds, Records, and
Evidences (London, 1672) in Part IV, pp. 231-232 claimed that:

Sir John Savage (II) of Clifton, Knight, died "primo die Augufti, 28 Hen. 6.
1450."

John Savage (III) of Clifton, Efquire, died "29 die Junii, 3 Edw. 4. 1463.
Aetat 53 annorum."

Sir John Savage (IV) of Clifton, fenior, Knight, died "22 Novembris, 11 Hen.
7. 1495." "Aetat 73."

A sixteenth-century inspeximus of the IPMs of the first two above
(abstracted at A2A) confirmed the 1450 date of death for the first but for the second
gave his death on the same date as Leycester but in 1464 and with no age
listed. I believe enough evidence has been presented in the past at this forum to
indicate that one or more of these successive John Savages were likely older
than indicated by their ages given by Leycester. If these ages were
recorded at their deaths it certainly leaves the door open for error, being recorded
a lifetime after their occurrence. I know from my own experience that my
great-grandmother's year of birth is disputed. I prefer the contemporary
evidence which gives her an 1896 year of birth, but she claimed in her lifetime
she was born in 1898 and most of my cousins have accepted that as the correct
year. I believe vanity kept her from admitting she was two years older than
her husband. I know that's neither here nor there in regard to the Savage
men's years of birth, but I just wanted to show my personal experience with
difficulty in firmly placing much more recent dates of birth.

Todd Whitesides

Douglas Richardson

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 27 des 2005 23:05:52

Dear Adrian ~

The record dated 11 Henry III (1226/7) that Linda Jack kindly posted to
the newsgroup SPECIFICALLY refers to marriage ["nuptias"] of "Mary
daughter of William formerly Earl of Salisbury." Inasmuch as William
Longespée, Earl of Salisbury, husband of Countess Ela, died in the
previous regnal year on 7 March 1225/6, the record in question which
Linda posted clearly refers to William Longespée as Mary's father.
Mary Longespée was presumably named for her father's oldest legitimate
sister, Mary le Bigod.

I might note that in or before the previous year (10 Henry III, i.e.,
1225/6), William Longespee's daughter, Isabel, married a Northern
baron, William de Vescy, of Alnwick. William de Vescy was a first
cousin to Sir Robert de Roos (died 1267/9), of Wark, Northumberland.
Thus, a subsequent intermarriage between the Longespée and Roos
families would make perfect sense.

DR


ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:
Following the original thread, 11 King John should be 11 Henry III and Mary
was probably sister not daughter of Ela, although that would require a
correction to CP Vol XI, p 379. Note that Wm Longespee was only earl in right of
his wife. I know that where William is the subject of a deed etc., he has
been refered to Earl of Salisbury, but when the subject is his assumed issue, I
would have expected the reference to the earldom of Salisbury would be to her
mother, unless the reference is to Ela's father William who carried the
title in his own right.

Adrian



In a message dated 27/12/2005 00:15:33 GMT Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Douglas Richardson wrote;



Dear Newsgroup ~

Sometime ago, Linda Jack posted a record pertaining to the marriage of
Mary Longespée, a hitherto unnoticed daughter of William Longespée,
Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England). A
copy of Linda's good message is copied below. In her post, Linda Jack
cited a record which mentions Mary Longespée's marriage c. 1226/7, but
the name of Mary Longespée's husband is unknown.

I haven't encountered any further reference to Mary Longespée in my
research. However, it seems entirely possible to me that Mary
Longespée was the unknown wife of Sir Robert de Roos (died 1267/69),
of Wark, Northumberland. Among other things, I note that Sir Robert de
Roos had a daughter, Ida de Roos, wife successively of Roger Bertram
(living 1272), Robert de Neville (died 1282), and John Fitz Marmaduke.
The name, Ida, is a well known given name which runs in the Longespée
family. Its occurence among the children of Sir Robert de Roos is
certainly a good clue to the identity of his wife. The given name,
Mary, also appears among Sir Robert de Roos' Merlay grandchildren,
which evidence is also suggestive, as the name Mary was a bit rare in
this time period among high born families.

Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 119, footnote g (sub Ros) indicates that
Sir Robert de Roos had Wark, Northumberland settled on him and his
heirs by a lawful wife by his father in 1225-1226, which grant was
confirmed by King Henry III 15 August 1227. The settlement of Wark was
possibly made in anticipation of Sir Robert de Roos' marriage. If so,
it would seems that Sir Robert de Roos married about the same time as
did Mary Longespée.

One caveat. Linda Jack states that Mary Longespée married in 1226-7,
but elsewhere she says the record she cites is from 11 John. 11 John
would be 1210-11, not 1226-7. Perhaps Linda Jack can explain this
discrepancy for us.

Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF LINDA JACK'S EARLIER POST

Linda Jack <linda_j...@earthlink.net

I think that I have run across another daughter of William Longespee, a
daughter Mary, who was apparently married in 1226-1227. The source is
Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum in Turri Londinensi, vol II, 1844, Thos
Hardy, ed. , p. 200. The item reads something to the effect of "The
baliffs of John de Monem in the New Forest are ordered to give Ela
Countess of Salisbury one deer in their baliwick as a gift of the Lord
King at the marriage of Mary the daughter of William former earl of
Salisbury." I can't reproduce the correct marks, but the Latin is an
approximation of " D' damo dato. Mand' est Ballis Jonis de Monem de
Nova Foresta qd hre fac Ele Comitsse Sarr j. damu i balla sua de dono
dui R. ad. nuptias Marie fil W. q nda Com Sarr. T. ut s." If anyone
has the original at hand, a check on the translation would be
appreciated.

The entry is for the 11th year of John's reign which I understand to
have begun on October 28,1226 so this would have been after
Longespee's
death, yet it seems odd that a daughter, Mary, has not surfaced
before. Has anyone seen her before? Any possible husbands at the
time
of this marriage? I am working from a photocopy I made some time ago,
so I don't have the source at hand to see if there are any other
records
around the same time that may shed some light on Mary.

Thanks for any suggestions, Linda


Gjest

re: Joan Roos, heir of Thomas Roos of Dowsby

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2005 01:31:02

"The Cecil Family", George Ravenscroft Dennis; Houghton Mifflin Company,
Boston, 1914

is stated that Richard, 1st Lord Cecil, had a stepmother, that is that his
father married a second time to a "Joan Roos, heiress of her father Thomas Roos
of Dowsby, Lincolnshire".

No further details are given and I wonder if anyone can further identify this
Roos family, that is connect them to other Roos ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Browne of Tolethorpe, Rutland to Maryland as a colonist

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2005 02:25:02

I'm not sure that DNB is correct in the sons of Robert Browne. Below is an
article where "H.W." has found his sons to be Frauncis, Thomas, and John.

Adrian


BROWNISTS.
(2nd S. viii. 449.)
Having had my attention called to an article "On the Origin of the
Brownists," I obtained leave to examine the parish registers at Achurch, the living
which Robert Browne, the founder of the sect, held in Northamptonshire. The
earliest register there is from its commencement in Browne's handwriting, and
appears to have been very carefully kept during the whole period of his
incumbency by himself or by his curates. It dates from January 1591-2. Every page at
first was signed by Browne, and attested by the churchwardens, but about
1602 a particular form of attestation is used once or twice, certifying that
"the Regist'r since the 25 of March last past is true and perfect, read in the
church, and kept according to law and order By me Robert Browne." Whether or
not Fuller (as quoted) is correct in saying that Browne "had a church in which
he never preached," is clear from this register that he was carful in other
ministrations; for from the commencement of it until early in the year 1617,
he has entered with his own hand every marriage, christening, and burial,
that took place in the parish or "towne" as he calls it. In some cases he has
noted when parishioners have been married, baptized, or buried in other places.
With respect to Marriages, the notes are simply statements of fact without
comments, but with the Baptisms and Burials, as will be seen, it is not always
so. From Sept. 1617 until June 1626 Browne seems to have been absent from
Achurch, but his place was supplied first by "Arthur Smith Curate ibid," and
then by "John Barker Min'r," In 1626, "the Minister, Robert Browne," seems to
have again come into residence, and continued to keep the registers till 1631.
The last entry in his handwriting being on the 21 Maie of that, a year later
than that usually given as the date of his death. As to Fuller's other remark
about "a wife with whom he never lived," Browne may certainly have so
treated a second wife in Fuller's time; but he had a former wife named Alice, whom
Fuller could not have know, as he was only born in 1608, and she, according
to the register, was buried in 1610. This was doubtless the mother of Browne's
three sons, Frauncis, Thomas, and John, and of his three daughters, Bridget,
Grace, and Alice; all christened, and some buried, between the years 1592
and 1603. I find no trace of "Timothy," who is said in the pamphlet to have
"played the base to the Psalms that were sung in the church." I can trace the
"Constable his Godson," mentioned by J. Y. He was Robert Greene, son of Henrie
Greene, one of the churchwardens--was christened in Feb. 1592-3, and married
to Luce Adams in 1620. He had several children duly baptized between 1621 an
d 1627, the last child being baptized by Browne himself; but in 1630 there is
the following entry, which indicates that there was some other cause of
quarrel between Browne and the Constable beside the matter of rate, which was so
rudely refused. " Novemb'r 7. 1630. A child of my ungracious Godsonne Robert
Green baptized elswere in schisme." This sort of entry ocucurs for the first
time just before Browne left the parish to the care of the curates. "Allen
Greene's child baptized in schisme at Lylford named John" It occures frequently
after his return, and more particularly during the last few years of his
incumbency; for instance, 1627. "A child of Edmund Quinsey baptized alswhere,
and not in our Parish Church." [I may note that it was from this stock that
Quincey-Adams the American statesman was descended.] Almost the last entry he
made was "Maie 8. 1631, a child of James Connington baptized and buried by
himself in sci'me." It is curious to remark how jealous Browne, formerly himself
a violent sectarian, seems to have been of any departure in others from the
church's rules. There is nothing particularly interesting in any other of
Browne's comments, but I give the following entries as specimens:--"1599.
Guilbert Pickering Gentlema' my L. Burghley's officer: buried at Tichmarsh." "An
Irish youth dying in ye manour house Porch for want of succour, and buried Oct.
24. 1630." "Edward Greene an old and lame Bachelar Februarie 8. 1630." H.W.
(Notes & Queries S2 V09 N217 P148/9; 26 Feb 1860)


In a message dated 28/12/2005 00:16:23 GMT Standard Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
There is a DNB article on Robert Browne the non conformist which states that:

1) he was born 1550? and died 1631/3
2) he married Alice Alden
3) he had sons Edward and Timothy (at least)
4) Edward married Mary Williams and had sons Edward and Morgan

and that these last went to Maryland and stayed there. And were supposedly
ancestral to many persons. However I can't quite connect these many persons.

Does anyone have further details of Morgan Browne ?
Thanks
<<<<

Gjest

Re: Joan Roos, heir of Thomas Roos of Dowsby

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2005 02:26:02

It's not clear who is meant by Richard, 1st Lord Cecil. Lord Burghley's 2nd
son Robert was cr Baron Cecil of Essendon, but soon after elevated to Earl
of Salisbury, his step mother was Mary Cheke.

Adrian


In a message dated 28/12/2005 00:30:34 GMT Standard Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:

"The Cecil Family", George Ravenscroft Dennis; Houghton Mifflin Company,

Boston, 1914

is stated that Richard, 1st Lord Cecil, had a stepmother, that is that his
father married a second time to a "Joan Roos, heiress of her father Thomas
Roos
of Dowsby, Lincolnshire".

No further details are given and I wonder if anyone can further identify
this
Roos family, that is connect them to other Roos ?

Thanks
Will Johnson
<<<<<

Gjest

Re: Joan Roos, heir of Thomas Roos of Dowsby

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2005 05:16:01

In a message dated 12/27/05 5:24:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

<< It's not clear who is meant by Richard, 1st Lord Cecil. Lord Burghley's
2nd
son Robert was cr Baron Cecil of Essendon, but soon after elevated to Earl
of Salisbury, his step mother was Mary Cheke. >>

Richard, 1st Lord Cecil, is Lord Burghley's father.
Richard died 19 Mar 1552/3 at his house in Cannon Row
I do not know when he was born, but his wife Jane Heckington is given as
dying at the age of 88 on 10 Mar 1587/8.
If anyone has a "good" reference to when Richard was born I'd appreciate
it.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Stradling of St.Donats

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2005 05:28:09

In a message dated 12/25/05 7:22:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< The Complete Baronetage Volume I page 6, at the bottom the Stradling
family begins with

Sir John Stradling, of St. Donates, co. Glamorgan, son and heir of Francis
Stradling, of St.Georges (who died in 1589) by Mary daughter of Bartholomew
Mitchell.

Does anyone know whether Francis Stradling is a son of Henry Stradling and
Joan Jubb?

With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia >>


Leo I do have these people in my database
There is a DNB article on John Stradling, Bart. but it appears from my notes,
that it states his mother's name was Elizabeth
It says the family is "Of St George's, Near Bristol"

Although I have no direct reference to who Francis Stradling d 1589 father
was, I do have that his *grandfather* was Sir Thomas Stradling 1498-1571 of St
Donat's who had for wife, Catherine Gamage dau of Thomas Lord of Coyty Castle

Both Thomas and his son Edward Stradling have DNB articles as well and this
is how I got this information.

Will Johnson

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Joan Roos, heir of Thomas Roos of Dowsby

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 28 des 2005 12:38:08

In message of 28 Dec, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 12/27/05 5:24:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:

It's not clear who is meant by Richard, 1st Lord Cecil. Lord
Burghley's 2nd son Robert was cr Baron Cecil of Essendon, but soon
after elevated to Earl of Salisbury, his step mother was Mary
Cheke.

Richard, 1st Lord Cecil, is Lord Burghley's father.

His is not styled as such in Burghley's article in CP II, 428 nor is he
included in the list of the two people, CP III, 123, who may have used
the Cecil title.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Joan Roos, heir of Thomas Roos of Dowsby

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 des 2005 12:54:02

Richard Cecil/Cyssel (Lord Burghley's father) was not created a peer and I
have never seen him refereed to as a baronial Lord. I have seen him described
as an able lawyer employed in the court under Henry VIII and Edward VI. He
was born in Bourne, Lincs. His father, David, m a dau of a local landowner,
and is supposed to have originated from Herefordshire.

Adrian

In a message dated 28/12/2005 04:05:49 GMT Standard Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
Richard, 1st Lord Cecil, is Lord Burghley's father.

Richard died 19 Mar 1552/3 at his house in Cannon Row
I do not know when he was born, but his wife Jane Heckington is given as
dying at the age of 88 on 10 Mar 1587/8.
If anyone has a "good" reference to when Richard was born I'd appreciate
it.

Will Johnson
<<<<

Chris Phillips

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 29 des 2005 15:49:00

Adrian Channing wrote:
If I follow this correctly (and not withstanding my previous query to
Doug's
construction, his answer was not convincing), then Doug's construction
would
lead to the following:

The Sir Robert de Ros who died ?1269 and of Wark on Tweed m1 Mary
Longespee
and m2 Christine d of Robert Bertram and sister and (in her issue coh) of
Roger Bertram. This Roger Bertram wife being Ida dau of Sir Robert de
Ros
(-?1269) by his m1 Mary Longespee.

Is this what Doug is implying (I'm not saying that this is not possible)?


Doug is arguing that it was Sir Robert de Ros's elder son William who
married Christine Bertram, so Sir Robert's second marriage would be deleted.

Christine's father was also named Roger, and the younger Roger married a
daughter of Sir Robert de Ros at the same time as Sir Robert's son William
married a sister of Roger junior.

What I'm asking is if there is any evidence that this daughter of Sir Robert
de Ros was the same wife Ida who survived Roger Bertram junior. If not, the
onomastic indication that Sir Robert's may have been married to a Longespee
would be lost.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2005 16:13:02

In a message dated 28/12/2005 23:15:19 GMT Standard Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
Douglas Richardson wrote:
<<
Among other things, I note that Sir Robert de
Roos had a daughter, Ida de Roos, wife successively of Roger Bertram
(living 1272), Robert de Neville (died 1282), and John Fitz Marmaduke.

Chris Phillips wrote

Is there anything to indicate that the wife who survived Roger Bertram, and

went on to marry two further husbands, was the same wife to whom he was
married by 1241?

If not, then it hasn't been established that Sir Robert de Ros had a
daughter named Ida.
<<<


If I follow this correctly (and not withstanding my previous query to Doug's
construction, his answer was not convincing), then Doug's construction would
lead to the following:

The Sir Robert de Ros who died ?1269 and of Wark on Tweed m1 Mary Longespee
and m2 Christine d of Robert Bertram and sister and (in her issue coh) of
Roger Bertram. This Roger Bertram wife being Ida dau of Sir Robert de Ros
(-?1269) by his m1 Mary Longespee.

Is this what Doug is implying (I'm not saying that this is not possible)?

BTW there seems to be a divergence between CP Vol II p 162 and CP Vol XI p
120; The first states that Christine m1 NN de Penulbury (leaving Elias de P),
m2 Sir Robert de Ros of Wark, who d in 1275, but Vol XI p 120 states she m
the Robert de Ros who died in c1269, also Vol XI has Christine m1 Sir Robert de
Ros and m2 Robert de Penbury. From sub-note h p 120 Vol XI is more likely to
be correct.

Adrian

Gjest

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2005 17:34:02

Dear Adrian and Chris,
I thought that Douglas meant that the
first Sir Robert Roos of Wark, 2nd son of Sir Robert Roos of Hamlake and Isabel of
the Scots is the one who presumedly married Mary Longespee, daughter of
William Longespee, 1st Earl of Salisbury of that line by Ela, Countess / heiress of
the previous Earls of Salisbury and that Christiana Bertram was married to
that Robert of Wark`s eldest son William rather than to his younger brother
Robert who married a unknown Margaret.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Douglas Richardson

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 des 2005 19:53:25

Dear Adrian ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

I'm proposing that Sir Robert de Roos (died 1267/69) of Wark,
Northumberland [2nd son of Sir Robert Roos of Helmsley and Isabel of
Scotland] married c. 1226/7 Mary Longespee, daughter of William
Longespee (died 1226), Earl of Salisbury. This marriage produced at
least four children, Isabel (wife of Roger de Merlay), William (of
Mindrum), Robert (of Wark), and Ida (wife of Roger Bertram, Robert de
Neville, and John Fitz Marmaduke).

The proposed marriage of Sir Robert de Roos and Mary Longespee appears
to have taken place right after Sir Robert de Roos obtained Wark Castle
from his father. Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 119, footnote g (sub
Ros) states that the conveyance of Wark Castle took place in 1225-6,
but gives no documentation for that statement. The charter which
conveyed Wark Castle, however, makes it clear that it was done sometime
after Sir Robert's father founded a hospital for lepers at Bolton,
Northumberland. The foundation of Bolton hospital is usually dated to
1225 (see, for example,
http://homepage.mac.com/philipdavis/Eng ... /2612.html).

Fortunately, the foundation charter for Bolton Hospital is available in
William Dugdale's Monasticon Anglicanum, 6 Pt. 2 (1830): 693, which
source may be viewed online at http://www.monasticmatrix.com. Judging from
the long list of witnesses, I can confirm that the charter for Bolton
Hospital dates sometime between 1223 and 1 May 1226 (the latter date
being the death date of Richard de Marsh, Bishop of Durham, one of the
witnesses). Elsewhere, I find that the gift of Wark Castle to Sir
Robert de Roos by his father was confirmed by King Henry III on 15
August 1227 [Reference: Calendar of Charter Rolls, 1 (1895): 56].
Thus, it would appear that Wark Castle was settled on Sir Robert de
Roos sometime between 1223 and 15 August 1227. If the usual date of
the foundation of Bolton Hospital is correct, namely 1225, then the
settlement of Wark Castle can be narrowed down to sometime between 1225
and 15 August 1227. This date corresponds nicely with the known
marriage date (1226/7) of Mary Longespee, which date was kindly
supplied by Linda Jack in her earlier post on Mary Longespee.

Those interested in learning more about the history of Wark Castle may
wish to visit the following weblinks:

http://homepage.mac.com/philipdavis/Eng ... /2455.html

http://www.coldstream-scotland.co.uk/hi ... astle.html

http://www.keystothepast.info/durhamcc/ ... m&PRN=N688

http://www.pastperfect.org.uk/sites/wark/index.html

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 28/12/2005 23:15:19 GMT Standard Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
Douglas Richardson wrote:

Among other things, I note that Sir Robert de
Roos had a daughter, Ida de Roos, wife successively of Roger Bertram
(living 1272), Robert de Neville (died 1282), and John Fitz Marmaduke.


Chris Phillips wrote


Is there anything to indicate that the wife who survived Roger Bertram, and
went on to marry two further husbands, was the same wife to whom he was
married by 1241?

If not, then it hasn't been established that Sir Robert de Ros had a
daughter named Ida.



If I follow this correctly (and not withstanding my previous query to Doug's
construction, his answer was not convincing), then Doug's construction would
lead to the following:

The Sir Robert de Ros who died ?1269 and of Wark on Tweed m1 Mary Longespee
and m2 Christine d of Robert Bertram and sister and (in her issue coh) of
Roger Bertram. This Roger Bertram wife being Ida dau of Sir Robert de Ros
(-?1269) by his m1 Mary Longespee.

Is this what Doug is implying (I'm not saying that this is not possible)?

BTW there seems to be a divergence between CP Vol II p 162 and CP Vol XI p
120; The first states that Christine m1 NN de Penulbury (leaving Elias de P),
m2 Sir Robert de Ros of Wark, who d in 1275, but Vol XI p 120 states she m
the Robert de Ros who died in c1269, also Vol XI has Christine m1 Sir Robert de
Ros and m2 Robert de Penbury. From sub-note h p 120 Vol XI is more likely to
be correct.

Adrian

Gjest

Re: Re STRADLING of St Donats

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2005 20:22:02

In a message dated 12/29/05 1:57:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, PMeazey@aol.com
writes:

<< This is the simple version given by T.C.Evans ("Cadrawd") in his
manuscript
History of the Stradlings (Cardiff Central Library Ms 3.166). >>

Can you provide a date for this item ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2005 20:46:02

In a message dated 12/29/05 8:32:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< first Sir Robert Roos of Wark, 2nd son of Sir Robert Roos of Hamlake and
Isabel of
the Scots is the one who presumedly married Mary Longespee, daughter of
William Longespee, 1st Earl of Salisbury of that line by Ela, Countess /
heiress of
the previous Earls of Salisbury and that Christiana Bertram was married to
that Robert of Wark`s eldest son William rather than to his younger brother
Robert who married a unknown Margaret. >>


The given names of Robert's children "William", "Robert" and "Isabel" can all
be extracted simply, from Robert's own ancestry. However the name "Ida"
cannot.

Robert de Ros, second son of Robert de Ros d 1227, was a "Justice of the
King's Bench" in 1230. However his father Robert d 1227 was aged 13 in 1185. And
the son Robert was a "younger son". That rather narrows the possible age
range of the son. I would propose 1193/1200 which allows him to be 23 to 35 when
he obtained Wark and 30 to 38 when he was a Justice. However this gives us a
rather-aged marriage age of 26 to 35 when he marries Mary Longespee who
herself cannot have been older than 30 and possibly as young as 1, but otherwise I
don't believe we have any data points to set her age.

Therefore I'm proposing that this match was a second marriage for Robert de
Ros, which means there is still a first marriage, which identification *may* be
tied to identifying the various properties each of his grandchildren held..

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 des 2005 20:58:01

In a message dated 12/29/05 11:02:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< This marriage produced at
least four children, Isabel (wife of Roger de Merlay), William (of
Mindrum), Robert (of Wark), and Ida (wife of Roger Bertram, Robert de
Neville, and John Fitz Marmaduke). >>


I propose a slight alteration on this. That Mary was a second wife and that
only Ida was a child of this marriage.

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Wife of Sir Robert de Roos, of Wark, Northumberland

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 des 2005 21:10:11

Dear Will ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

It appears that Sir Robert de Roos arranged for the marriages of his
eldest three children, a son and two daughters, in or about 1241, as
all three marriages are mentioned in the 1241 forest plea as having
just taken place. Isabel, who appears to be the older daughter,
produced a child within the year. Assuming that Isabel was aged 14
when she gave birth to her first child (common in that time period),
then it would place her birth at about 1227/8. If so, then Isabel de
Roos could easily be the child of Mary Longespee who we know married
sometime in 1226/7.

In this time period, it was only necessary for a child to be age 7 to
give legal consent to a marriage. Thus, we can be sure that the three
Roos children married in 1241 were all at least age 7. Beyond that, it
is impossible to say what the ages of the three children were. Without
further information, my guess would be that Isabel was the eldest
child, born c. 1227/8, followed by William, the eldest son, and then
Ida. I presume Ida was the youngest of the three, as she survived
until at least 1320.

Regarding Ida's advanced age in 1320, I should mention that her 2nd
husband, Sir Robert de Neville, had possession of at least part of his
father's lands by 1243 [Reference: Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 495,
footnote c]. Thus he was born in or before 1222. If Ida was aged 9 at
her first marriage in 1241, it would place her birth at c. 1232, which
would make her about 10 years younger than her second husband. This is
certainly acceptable. This means, however, that Ida was about 88 years
old in 1320.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/29/05 11:02:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

This marriage produced at
least four children, Isabel (wife of Roger de Merlay), William (of
Mindrum), Robert (of Wark), and Ida (wife of Roger Bertram, Robert de
Neville, and John Fitz Marmaduke).


I propose a slight alteration on this. That Mary was a second wife and that
only Ida was a child of this marriage.

Will Johnson

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