Douglas Richardson Nov 28, 9:41 pm Subject: Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's
mother, Gravelda of Dunbar wrote:
<<At this point, I'd very much like to hear from someone as to what Dr.
Katherine Keats-Rohan has to say about these people in her book,
Domesday Descendants. If someone has a copy of Keats-Rohan's book, I'd
appreciate it greatly if they would post the information regarding
these families here on the newsgroup. I believe it's time we heard
from Dr. Keats-Rohan.>>
Dear Douglas:
I post below all of what Keats-Rohan has to say on the Taillebois and
Lancaster decent that I was able to copy a number of months ago. This
was before I was concerned about the Engaine family so I don’t know if
she covered them. I no longer have access to the book.
In my message
FDP...@aol.com Nov 27, 6:36 pm I posted:
In her book, “DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS: PROSOPOGRAPHY OF PERSONS OCCURRING
IN ENGLISH DOCUMENTS 1066-1166; II. Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum;” K.
S. B. Keats-Rohan, THE BOYDELL PRESS, she provides the following chart
along with biographies of the individuals. This construction differs
from most accepted lines in the literature, and is argued against by
some of the “experts” of soc.genealogy.medieval.
*K. S. B. Keats-Rohan’s Chart: The family of Lancaster or Taillebois
Ivo m. (2)
Taillebois Lucy dau. Of
d. 1093 m. (1) Turold
N.N.
I
Beatrice d. m. (2)
by1121 m. (1) Ribald fl.
Eldred 1086
________I_______ _______
I___________________
I I I
I I I
Ketel Godith Ralph
Hervey Rainald William
m. m. Taillebois
Christina Gilbert of m.
I Lancaster Agnes de
I I Brus
I I
___ I____ I
I I I
Orm William William of m. (2)
I Lancaster or Gundrada of
I Taillebois Warwick
I fl. 1120-1170
I m. (1) N. N.
I I_____________
I I I
Gospatric Avice m. William II
William II Peverel d. 1184 *
* IVO DE TAILLEBOIS: Ivo Taillebois, probably brother of Ralph
Taillebois, a sheriff of Bedfordshire who was dead by 1086, was a
prominent administrator throughout the reign of William I and well into
that of William II. He appears to have been twice married since he was
ancestor of the English family surnamed 'of Lancaster' or Taillebois
who descended from the thegn Eldred, alive in 1086. In 1093 he can be
seen to have had a daughter Beatrice, then married to Ribald of
Richmond. She was dead in 1121, when Ivo's widow Lucy was married to
her third husband. Lucy and Beatrice, probably widow of Eldred before
marriage to Ribald, were contemporaries, so Lucy must have been Ivo's
second wife. She was the daughter of Ivo's predecessor as sheriff of
Lincoln, Turold, who was probably a Norman. Her mother undoubtedly had
English ancestry since she was the daughter of William Malet, a sheriff
of York who seems to have had English maternal antecedents.* Source:
DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 35
*TAILLEBOIS, BEATRIX: Daughter of Ivo Taillebois (q.v.) and his unknown
first wife. Clay thought Beatrice was probably illegitimate (EYC, v,
291), because none of Ivo's property passed to Ribald with his wife
Beatrice. Ivo's second wife Lucy was an important heiress whose
inheritance formed the basis of the land Ivo held in Domesday Book This
fief, the honour of Bolingbroke, was inherited by the two sons of
Lucy's subsequent marriages, whereas Ivo's own barony of Kendal,
granted after 1086 went (possibly) to Ketel son of Eldred and then to
Ketel’s nephew William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster, surnamed Taillebois
(Sanders, 56). In the late twelfth century the writer Peter of Blois
claimed that Ivo had had a sole daughter, ‘nobly married’ Defective
genealogies, in the Cockersand Cartulary and the Register of St Mary's
York (Cockersand Cart., ii, pp. 305-8) made William a descendant of
Eldred and Ivo Taillebois, who must have been father of Eldred's wife.
Beatrice is known to have married Ribald, half-brother of the
Conqueror's Breton cousin Count Alan before 1093; Monasticon
Anglicanum. III, p. 553 no. xx. She was dead by c 1121 at the time of
a gift to St Mary's by Ribald and their son Ralph Taillebois: Given
that Ketel Fitz Eldred, his nephew William of Lancaster, and Ralph
fitz Ribald, were all active c.1120, .just a few years before Ivo’s
widow buried her third husband, one can conclude that Beatrice was a
legitimate heir of Ivo by a wife previous to Lucy, who was Beatrice's
contemporary, and that she was first the wife of the Englishman Eldred
and subsequently the wife of Ribald. For the descendants of Beatrice
and Ribald see Rev. H. C. Fitz Herbert An original pedigree ofTailbois
and Neville', The Genealogist, ns iii, 31. Clay. Early Yorkshire
Charters (1936), V, no. 358.* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S.
B. Keats-Rohan, page 1121
*FILIUS ELDRED, KETEL: Son of Eldred and a daughter of Ivo Taillcbois
(q.v.), some of whose land in the barony of Kendal he inherited.
Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees, founded 1120, to which he gave land
in Morland and Workington (Register St Bees, pp. 233 -34, no. 212) with
the assent of his wife Christiana and son William. Father also of Orm,
whose son Gospatric was his eventual heir. His grant of land to St
Leonard's, York, was confirmed by his sister's son William fitz Gilbert
of Lancaster (q.v.). He died several years after 1120. G.
Washington, ‘The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal',
Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological
Society 62 (1962). Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, III, pp. 548-60,
no. V.* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page
881
In my message
FDP...@aol.com Nov 26, 9:21 pm I posted
*DE LANCASTRIA, WILLELM FILIUS GILBERTI : William of Lancaster, also
known as William Taillebois, son of Gilbert and Goditha, sister of
Ketel son of Eldred. A defective genealogy in the Cockersand Cartulary
(vol. II. pp. 305-8) made him great-grandson of Eldred and
great-great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, who was therefore father of
Eldred's wife. In fact, a charter in which he made a grant to St
Leonard's York also contained a confirmation of the gift of his
maternal uncle ('avunculus') Ketcl fitz Eldred, thus establishing that
he was grandson of Eldred. From this it can be inferred that he was a
great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, whose post-Domesday barony of Kendal
he held. First occurs c.l120. In 1166 he held 2 fees de novo of Roger
de Mowbray at Kendale and Lonsdale in Westmorland and Horton in
Ribblesdale, Yorkshire. Twice married, secondly, by 1156, to Gundrada,
widow or daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). Father of Jordan
(d.v.p.), William II (d. l184), and Avice, second wife of William II
Peverel of Nottingham and secondly wife of Richard de Morville (J.
Green, 'Ranulf II and Lancashire', in Earldom of Chester and its
Charters, ed. Thackeray, p. 107n.). G. Washington, 'The parentage of
William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal', Transactions
Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society 62
(1962). Helwise, daughter and heiress of William II of Lancaster (d.
1184), married Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who became lord of
Kendal in Westmorland in her right (Sanders, 57). Cronnc/Davis, RRAN
III, no. 337; Dugdale, Monuslicon Anglicanum, III, p. 577, no. III:
Greenway, Charters of The Honour of Mowbray (1972), no. 370; F.
Ragg.? Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539
In my post
FDP...@aol.com Nov 28, 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Gospatric Fitz
Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar
*FILIUS ORM, GOSPATRIC: Son of Orm, son of Chetel son of Eldred, of
Workington, Cumberland. Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 120-cl; Pipe Roll 9 Henry
II, 10-cl; Pipe Roll 10 Henry II, 2-cl; Pipe Roll 11 Henry II, 54-cl;
Pipe Roll 12 Henry II, 88-cl;* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S.
B. Keats-Rohan, page # not copied
In my post
FDP...@aol.com Nov 29, 9:54 am Subject: Re: Gilbert
fitzReinfrid son
and heir..Further..
*DE LANCASTRIA, GILBERT: His son and successor William fitz Gilbert of
Lancaster was nephew of an Englishman Ketel son of Eldred whose sister
Godith was Gilbert's wife. His father is unknown. William occurs from
c. 1120-70, G. Washington, 'The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord
of Kendal'. Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian &
Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Dugdale. Monuslicon Anglicanum,
III, p. 577, no. III; Greenway, Charters of the Honour of Mowbrey
(1972), no. 370; F. Ragg, Charter’s of St Peter's (St Leonard's
Hospital, York', TCWAAS (1909), p. 237* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS;
by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539.
*DE LANCASTRIA, WILLELM FILIUS GILBERTI: William of Lancaster, also
known as William Taillebois, son of Gilbert and Goditha, sister of
Ketel son of Eldred. A defective genealogy in the Cockersand Cartulary
(vol. II. pp. 305-8) made him great-grandson of Eldred and
great-great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, who was therefore father of
Eldred's wife. In fact, a charter in which he made a grant to St
Leonard's York also contained a confirmation of the gift of his
maternal uncle ('avunculus') Ketcl fitz Eldred, thus establishing that
he was grandson of Eldred. From this it can be inferred that he was a
great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, whose post-Domesday barony of Kendal
he held. First occurs c.l120. In 1166 he held 2 fees de novo of Roger
de Mowbray at Kendale and Lonsdale in Westmorland and Horton in
Ribblesdale, Yorkshire. Twice married, secondly, by 1156, to Gundrada,
widow or daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). Father of Jordan
(d.v.p.), William II (d. l184), and Avice, second wife of William II
Peverel of Nottingham and secondly wife of Richard de Morville (J.
Green, 'Ranulf II and Lancashire', in Earldom of Chester and its
Charters, ed. Thackeray, p. 107n.). G. Washington, 'The parentage of
William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal', Transactions Cumberland &
Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Helwise,
daughter and heiress of William II of Lancaster (d. 1184), married
Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who became lord of Kendal in
Westmorland in her right (Sanders, 57). Cronnc/Davis, RRAN III, no.
337; Dugdale, Monuslicon Anglicanum, III, p. 577, no. III: Greenway,
Charters of The Honour of Mowbray (1972), no. 370; F. Ragg.*
Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539
Lastly, after reviewing all I have and found this last note was not
posted before:
*DE WARENNE,GUNDREDA: Daughter of William II de Warenne. She married
first Roger earl of Warwick (1119-53) by whom she had issue two sons
and two daughters, and seconfly William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster, whom
she married before 1156. Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 145-rt; Pipe Roll 4
Henry II, 185-wk; Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 26-wk; Red Book of the
Exchequuer, ed. Hall (1897), pp 324-27.* DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K.
S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 777.
Hope this answers your request,
Respectfully,
Dix Preston