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Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 19:03:01

And I should point out per "Living Descendents of Blood Royal" the Sir Ralph (not Earl or Lord) de Stafford that I have been stating is shown to be father to this Jane (Joan) has himself an IPM 3 Jul 1410.

So far that text has not been introduced in this thread, but I would have to think that it might shed light on his daughter Jane (Stafford) Beke and her husband Nicholas.

Will Johnson

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Sutton <petersutton@ntlworld.com>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:52:45 -0000
Subject: RE: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford


I don't think that I can usefully add anymore to my previous posts regarding
Sir Nicholas Beke.

For those who wish to pursue more fully the career of Sir Nicholas Beke and
his family I would commend the "Collections for a History of Staffordshire".
This is an ongoing series of publications containing a wealth of material
relating to the county. The series commenced in 1880 and is published by the
Staffordshire Record Society which was known as the William Salt
Archaeological Society prior to 1936. Volume have been published on,
usually, an yearly basis.

Peter Sutton

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: 28 November 2005 16:41
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford


In a message dated 11/28/2005 8:33:29 AM Pacific Standard
Time, petersutton@ntlworld.com writes:

But what we do know is that Sir Nicholas had a very close
relationship with Ralph Stafford, he was in his household.


How do we know this again?
Thanks
Will Johnson


Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 19:23:12

wjhonson@aol.com schrieb:

And I should point out per "Living Descendents of Blood Royal" the Sir Ralph (not Earl or Lord) de Stafford that I have been stating is shown to be father to this Jane (Joan) has himself an IPM 3 Jul 1410.

So far that text has not been introduced in this thread, but I would have to think that it might shed light on his daughter Jane (Stafford) Beke and her husband Nicholas.

Given that Ralph Stafford (d 1410) left a son and heir, it is very
unlikely (although not impossible) that his IPM would also give details
about one of his daughters.

MAR

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 19:28:03

wjhonson@aol.com schrieb:

And I should point out per "Living Descendents of Blood Royal" the Sir Ralph (not Earl or Lord) de Stafford that I have been stating is shown to be father to this Jane (Joan) has himself an IPM 3 Jul 1410.

Why should credence be attached to this secondary or tertiary work
(dated how many hundreds of years after the "facts" it alleges?) when
Visitations a mere 200 years removed are to be dismissed as
"worthless"?

MAR

Douglas Richardson

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 nov 2005 19:50:27

Dear Will ~

You appear to have confused two different men named Ralph [de]
Stafford, both of whom had a Hastang wife. The first Ralph was Sir
Ralph de Stafford, K.G. (died 1372), 1st Earl of Stafford, whose first
wife was Katherine Hastang. The second Ralph was Ralph Stafford (died
1410), of Grafton, Worcestershire, whose wife was Maud Hastang.
Biographies of both men are included by my book, Plantagenet Ancestry
(2004).

Sir Nicholas de Beke's wife, Joan, was a daughter of Sir Ralph de
Stafford (died 1372), 1st Earl of Stafford, by his 1st wife, Katherine
Hastang. Living Descendants of Blood Royal withstanding, It is
impossible chronologically for Sir Nicholas de Beke's wife, Joan, to be
the daughter of the other Ralph Stafford (died 1410), who married Maud
Hastang. Ralph Stafford, husband of Maud Hastang, was in the same
generation as Sir Nicholas de Beke's granddaughter, Maud (Swinnerton)
(Peshale) (Ipstones) Savage.

I trust this answers your question.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, City

http://www.royalancestry.net

wjhonson@aol.com wrote:
And I should point out per "Living Descendents of Blood Royal" the Sir Ralph (not Earl or Lord) de Stafford that I have been stating is shown to be father to this Jane (Joan) has himself an IPM 3 Jul 1410.

So far that text has not been introduced in this thread, but I would have to think that it might shed light on his daughter Jane (Stafford) Beke and her husband Nicholas.

Will Johnson

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Sutton <petersutton@ntlworld.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:52:45 -0000
Subject: RE: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford


I don't think that I can usefully add anymore to my previous posts regarding
Sir Nicholas Beke.

For those who wish to pursue more fully the career of Sir Nicholas Beke and
his family I would commend the "Collections for a History of Staffordshire".
This is an ongoing series of publications containing a wealth of material
relating to the county. The series commenced in 1880 and is published by the
Staffordshire Record Society which was known as the William Salt
Archaeological Society prior to 1936. Volume have been published on,
usually, an yearly basis.

Peter Sutton

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: 28 November 2005 16:41
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford


In a message dated 11/28/2005 8:33:29 AM Pacific Standard
Time, petersutton@ntlworld.com writes:

But what we do know is that Sir Nicholas had a very close
relationship with Ralph Stafford, he was in his household.


How do we know this again?
Thanks
Will Johnson


John P. Ravilious

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 28 nov 2005 19:53:32

Dear Will (et al.),

I recall that Count d'Angerville often displayed a tendency to
ignore chronology in the lines he published.

It seems there is a similar problem here. Elizabeth de Beke had
daughter Maud de Swinnerton, born ca. 1370 (her own daughters
Christiana and Alice were born ca. 1393 and ca. 1396 respectively).
Elizabeth de Beke herself was married some time before 8 July 1363, as
indicated in the letter of dispensation for their remaining in marriage
cited by Peter Sutton (the Papal exemplication to John do Cabrespino,
papal nuncio in England, permitting this action was dated at Avignon on
8 July 1363). It seems most likely that Elizabeth de Beke was born
sometime between say 1345 and 1355: surely no later than the last date,
although possibly before 1345.

Ralph de Stafford, Lord Stafford (1st Earl of Stafford) was born
24 Sept 1301, and married to Katherine de Hastang, his first wife,
before 9 Feb 1326/7. This Ralph was the maternal grandfather of Sir
Ralph de Stafford of Grafton, co. Warwick and Broomsgrove, co.
Worcester who d. in 1410.

If the portrayal by d'Angerville were correct, from the older Ralph
de Stafford to Elizabeth Beke we would then have four generations
(Ralph -> Margaret de Stafford -> Sir Ralph de Stafford -> NN de
Stafford -> Elizabeth Beke) compressed into a timeframe of between 44
years (1301-1345) and 54 years (1301-1355), an average interval of
between 11 and 13.5 years per generation. This appears to be an
untenable position to hold.

From Ralph de Stafford (1st Earl) to Elizabeth Beke, as
granddaughter, we would have average intervals of between 44 and 54
years but over 2 generations: an average of between 22 and 27 years.
This is certainly more reasonable. Further, this agrees with the
pedigrees as shown by Douglas Richardson, and the dispensation text of
1363 provided by Peter Sutton.

It therefore appears that Elizabeth Beke was a granddaughter of
Ralph the Earl, and not of his grandson Sir Ralph.

Cheers,

John


Original message:

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: WJhon...@aol.com - Find messages by this author
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 01:09:11 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sat, Nov 26 2005 8:09 pm
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

In a message dated 11/26/05 2:06:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,



royalances...@msn.com writes:


<< The colonial immigrant, Martha Eltonhead, descends from Sir Ralph de

Stafford (died 1372), 1st Earl of Stafford, through his granddaughter,

Elizabeth de Beke, wife of Robert de Swinnerton, Knt. [Reference:
Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, pp. 303-307, 722-723]. >>

Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Kitchen", pg 496-499, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962


states that this Elizabeth Beke is the granddaughter not of Sir Ralph
who d
1372, but rather of Ralph de Stafford of Grafton, Broomsgrove,
Worcester (by
his wife Maud de Hastings) who d 1 Mar 1410


Will Johnson



wjhonson@aol.com wrote:
And I should point out per "Living Descendents of Blood Royal" the Sir Ralph (not Earl or Lord) de Stafford that I have been stating is shown to be father to this Jane (Joan) has himself an IPM 3 Jul 1410.

So far that text has not been introduced in this thread, but I would have to think that it might shed light on his daughter Jane (Stafford) Beke and her husband Nicholas.

Will Johnson

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Sutton <petersutton@ntlworld.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:52:45 -0000
Subject: RE: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford


I don't think that I can usefully add anymore to my previous posts regarding
Sir Nicholas Beke.

For those who wish to pursue more fully the career of Sir Nicholas Beke and
his family I would commend the "Collections for a History of Staffordshire".
This is an ongoing series of publications containing a wealth of material
relating to the county. The series commenced in 1880 and is published by the
Staffordshire Record Society which was known as the William Salt
Archaeological Society prior to 1936. Volume have been published on,
usually, an yearly basis.

Peter Sutton

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: 28 November 2005 16:41
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford


In a message dated 11/28/2005 8:33:29 AM Pacific Standard
Time, petersutton@ntlworld.com writes:

But what we do know is that Sir Nicholas had a very close
relationship with Ralph Stafford, he was in his household.


How do we know this again?
Thanks
Will Johnson


Peter Sutton

RE: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Peter Sutton » 28 nov 2005 19:55:03

Will

Are you referring to Jane (Joan) wife of Sir Nicholas Beke who was the
daughter of Ralph Stafford (who was himself Grandson of Ralph Earl of
Stafford) who died on 1st March 1410 and who was married to Maud Hastang
(born 2nd February 1359) sometime after 22 August 1373 who gave birth to
Jane (Joan) who married Sir Nicholas Beke and gave him 2 children before he
died in 1369, when his Mother-in-Law and their Grandmother was aged 10 years
and unmarried, or does "Living Descendents of Blood Royal" mean another
Ralph Stafford?

Peter Sutton

-----Original Message-----
From: wjhonson@aol.com [mailto:wjhonson@aol.com]
Sent: 28 November 2005 18:02
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

And I should point out per "Living Descendents of Blood
Royal" the Sir Ralph (not Earl or Lord) de Stafford that I
have been stating is shown to be father to this Jane (Joan)
has himself an IPM 3 Jul 1410.

So far that text has not been introduced in this thread, but
I would have to think that it might shed light on his
daughter Jane (Stafford) Beke and her husband Nicholas.

Will Johnson

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Sutton <petersutton@ntlworld.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:52:45 -0000
Subject: RE: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford


I don't think that I can usefully add anymore to my previous
posts regarding Sir Nicholas Beke.

For those who wish to pursue more fully the career of Sir
Nicholas Beke and his family I would commend the "Collections
for a History of Staffordshire".
This is an ongoing series of publications containing a wealth
of material relating to the county. The series commenced in
1880 and is published by the Staffordshire Record Society
which was known as the William Salt Archaeological Society
prior to 1936. Volume have been published on, usually, an
yearly basis.

Peter Sutton

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: 28 November 2005 16:41
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford


In a message dated 11/28/2005 8:33:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
petersutton@ntlworld.com writes:

But what we do know is that Sir Nicholas had a very close
relationship with Ralph Stafford, he was in his household.


How do we know this again?
Thanks
Will Johnson




Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 20:18:02

In a message dated 11/28/05 10:36:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

<< Why should credence be attached to this secondary or tertiary work
(dated how many hundreds of years after the "facts" it alleges?) when
Visitations a mere 200 years removed are to be dismissed as
"worthless"? >>

First there is no such thing as a tertiary source.
Second, it does not derive its information *from* a secondary source.
It states the link from the IPM
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 20:19:02

In a message dated 11/28/05 10:52:16 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<<
You appear to have confused two different men named Ralph [de]
Stafford, both of whom had a Hastang wife. >>

No *I* have not. I stated my source, and its source.
The confusion, is not mine. If the secondary sources are confused, reciting
more secondary sources does nothing to clear the air.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 20:24:42

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 11/28/05 10:36:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

Why should credence be attached to this secondary or tertiary work
(dated how many hundreds of years after the "facts" it alleges?) when
Visitations a mere 200 years removed are to be dismissed as
"worthless"?

First there is no such thing as a tertiary source.

There's no such thing as third-hand information? Each post here about
a secondary soruce is itself a tertiary source :)

Second, it does not derive its information *from* a secondary source.
It states the link from the IPM

Then it is, at best, a secondary source. There's no shame in that per
se: the printed Calendars of IPMs are perhaps best considered secondary
sources (which makes me think your source is a tertiary source anyway).
However, it is a source known to contain other errors, so it is far
from perfect. Additionally, other issues have been raised in this
thread which, by dint of logic, call this source into serious question
in respect of its statement about Jane Stafford's father.

It would be interesting to see what the 1410 IPM has to say that could
shed light on this.

Cheers

Michael

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 20:51:33

30. Douglas Richardson Nov 27, 10:02 pm wrote:

<<"Elgiva uxore ipsius Gospatricii, Ebrea matre ejus." [Reference:
James
Wilson, Register of the Priory of St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915):
60-61].

Ms. Guido translated this to read "his wife Elgiva and his mother
Ebrea." (Ms. Guido's words). However, as we have learned from a
recent discussion regarding a lawsuit involving the Lacy and Galloway
families, if Gospatric's mother had really been Ebrea, the list of
witnesses should have read as following:

Elgiva uxore ipsius Gospatricii, Ebrea matre suus."

Instead we find the word "ejus" (not "suus") employed in the original,
which means that Ebrea was Elgiva's mother, not Gospatric's. The word
"ejus" (her) in the original text refers back to Elgiva, not Gospatric.

If Ebrea was Gospatric's mother, the word "suus" (his) would have been

used to refer back to Gospatric, he being the author of the charter in
question.

In the second charter, we find that Gospatric Fitz Orm refers to Ebrea
as "matre mea" (my mother) [Reference: James Wilson, Register of the
Priory of St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915): 63-64]. However, we know

from other instances in medieval records that a man may refer to either

his mother, step-mother, or mother-in-law as "my mother." So the term
"my mother" in medieval records is vague in and of its own nature.>>

DOUGLAS HAS IT EXACTLY CORRECT.

In my message 42. FDP...@aol.com Nov 26, 4:50 pm; Subject: Re:
Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further.. I presented a Theory of
the descendants of Eldred. In this construct, I had Gospatric FitzOrm
as follows:

Descendants of Eldred of Northumbria

1. Eldred/Etheldred of Northumbria (approx b. 1018) alive 1086 d. bef
1093 [Keats-Rohan p. 1121] m. (1) Aldgytha/ Adgitha [ref 1] Eldred aka
Etret aka Ughtret and others
2. Ketel FitzEldred (approx b. 1047) alive 1020-1030 [ref 2] m.
Christiana [ref 2]
3. Orme FitzKetel (approx b. 1076) d. ca 1135/40 [Ref 3] m. Gunhilda
FitzGospatric est b. 1072; dau Gospatric I the Earl d. 1074/5
[Keats-Rohan, p.221]
4. Gospatric FitzOrme (b. 1100-1110 d. 1179 [literature] m. Egilina de
Engaine [traded for Workington with cousin William de Lancaster I]

In my message 56. FDP...@aol.com Nov 27, 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Gilbert
fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further.. I offered a chronology scenario
for this family.
I have not read Ms Guido?s paper in _Foundations_ but I gather from
this thread my chronology and my line of descent differs from hers.

In her message 37. Claudiu...@aol.com Nov 28, 12:12 pm Subject: Re:
Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar she writes:

<<Gravilda was born before 1075 as her father Gospatric earl of
Northumberland
was dead in 1074. Symeon of Durham [Symeonis Dunelmensis Opera et
Collectanea, Vol. II, Surtees Society Publication, Andrews & Co.,
Durham, 1868, pp.
199] records that just before his death Gospatric was visited by two
monks from
Jarrow abbey Aldwin and Turgot. Gospatric confessed his sins and died
and was
buried in the porch of the church at Melrose. Symeon dates this to
1074 in
Vol. I, pp. 111 where he states that this trip took place from Jarrow
to
Melrose. The confession was taken at Ubbanford [Norham]. So the
latest birth date
for Gravilda was 1075.>>

This exactly what I documented in my second message. However, she leaps
45 years in accounting for Gospatric?s birth. I fear she has jumped a
generation to make a fit with her Eberia as mother of Gospatric theory.

<<These dates seem to make it much more likely that Gospatric was born
ca. 1120-1125 which would eliminate Gravilda from being his mother.>>

<<Based on the above data Thomas son of Gospatric would appear to have
been
born ca. 1155-1160 making the logical birth date ca. 1120-1125 for
Gospatric.>>

In my construct Gospatric was born nominally ca1100, and his son Thomas
ca 1129 followed by Patric de Culwen ca 1158.

In my research I have Gospatric FitzOrme married to Egilina de Engaine
daughter of Ibria D'Estrivers and Ranulf D'Engaine. I present no
documentation other than Internet findings which place Egilina?s birth
between 1100-1110 which I find consistent with my Gospatric FitzOrme
data.

I find all the messages in this thread provide plenty of
?documentation? but demonstrate a lot of confusion with individuals
playing ?my record is better than your record.? One needs to make a
serious look at chronology which I have humbly attempted to do.

I go back to Douglas? message where he has it correct. Elgiva/Egilina,
I wish those scribes would write correctly, is clearly Gospatric?s wife
and Ebrea/Ibria is clearly his mother-in-law. Now I will concede that
the widow Ibria in her old age may have married Gospatric as his second
wife, but had no issue, and it is not unreasonable that a mother and
daughter would have a close relationship with a father and son.

I offer some additional ?documentation? for Gospatric FitzOrme ;



(1) FILIUS ORM, GOSPATRIC

?Son of Orm, son of Chetel son of Eldred, of Workington, Cumberland.
Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 120-cl; Pipe Roll 9 Henry II, 10-cl; Pipe Roll 10
Henry II, 2-cl; Pipe Roll 11 Henry II, 54-cl; Pipe Roll 12 Henry II,
88-cl;? Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page #
not copied

(2) ?1157 ?Gospatric son of Orm is with the king's court at Woodstock.
Coucher of Furness, pait i, 344.? Source: Farrer, ?Records of Kendale?,
Vol II, page 298

(3) ?1175 ?Gospatric son of Orm renders account of 20 marks to the
Crown for a default. Pipe Roll, 21 Henry n, p. 178.? Source: Farrer,
?Records of Kendale?, Vol II, p 298

(4) ?1176 ?Gospatric son of Orm accounts for an a mercement of 500
marks for the surrender of the king's castle of Appeibi to the king of
Scots. Pipe Roll, 22 Henry n, 119.? Source: Farrer, ?Records of
Kendale?, Vol II, p 298

Respectfully,

Dix Preston

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 21:09:02

In a message dated 11/28/05 11:42:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
petersutton@ntlworld.com writes:

<< Maud Hastang
(born 2nd February 1359 >>

Maud was not born, but rather baptised on 2 Feb 1358/9
dau of John Hastings of Leamington House, Warwick
"Living Descendents of Blood Royal", Vol 2, [sub] "Kitchen", pg 496-499 ;
Count d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 21:10:02

In a message dated 11/28/05 11:42:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
petersutton@ntlworld.com writes:

<< Maud Hastang
(born 2nd February 1359) sometime after 22 August 1373 >>

Between 20 Aug 1373 and 24 Feb 1374/5
per http://www.genealogics.org

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 21:11:02

In a message dated 11/28/05 11:42:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
petersutton@ntlworld.com writes:

<< Maud Hastang
(born 2nd February 1359) sometime after 22 August 1373 who gave birth to
Jane (Joan) who married Sir Nicholas Beke and gave him 2 children before he
died in 1369, >>

Can you share with us what source states his death year ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 nov 2005 21:16:24

Dear MichaelAnne ~

As I showed in earlier posts, Ebrea de Trevers' husband, Ranulph
Engaine, was evidently living after 1122, when they gave propety in
Henrickby (or Herriby) to Carlisle Priory. This dating makes it
virtually impossible for Ebrea de Trevers to be Gospatric Fitz Orm's
mother, as I will demonstrate below.

We know that Gospatric Fitz Orm issued a charter to St. Bees Priory
sometime in the period, 1138-1157, which charter was witnessed by his
first cousin, Alan Fitz Waltheof, his brothers-in-law, William and
Gilbert Engaine, his wife Elgiva, his mother-in-law, Ebrea [de
Trevers], and his three sons, Thomas, Adam, and Robert [Reference:
Register of the Priory of St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915): 60-61].

We can date the charter as being 1138-1157, as Alan Fitz Waltheof's
father, Waltheof Fitz Gospatrick, died in 1138, and William Engaine
died in 1157 [References: Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 23;
Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants (2002): 246]. If we assume that
Gospatric Fitz Orm's sons were of sufficient age to witness the
charter, it means that Thomas his eldest son was approximately age 20
in or before 1157, or before in or before 1137. Yet, incredibly, you
have Thomas being born a full generation later at ca. 1155-1160.
Likewise, we know from other records, that Thomas Fitz Gospatric'
son-in-law, William de Furness (or Fleming), was of age before 1164.
Again, I find it incredible that you have Thomas Fitz Gospatric being
the same approximate age as his son-in-law.

Elsewhere, I've determined that Thomas, son of Gospatrick Fitz Orm, had
a grandson, Michael de Furness, who was aged 6 in 1204, or born about
1198. Michael de Furness would, of course, be a great-grandson of
Gospatrick Fitz Orm. Using the 85 year rule of thumb for three
generations which I have employed in earlier posts, if we subtract 85
years from 1198, we obtain an estimated birthdate for Gospatric Fitz
Orm of circa 1113. We get a similar corresponding result in
chronology for his son, Thomas Fitz Gospatric, when we subtract 85
years from the approximate birthdate of his great-grandson, William de
Furness, who I believe was born c. 1215-1219. 85 years substracted
from c. 1215-1219 indicates an estimated birthdate of 1130/1134 for
Thomas Fitz Gospatric.

Using these records, the following chronology can be constructed which
harmonizes well with the facts as we have them:

1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, born before 1075, minor
and unmarried at her father's death in 1075. She married Orm Fitz
Ketel, who I believe was an adult in 1094.

2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1110, died c. 1177. He married Egliva
Engaine, daughter of Ranulph Engaine (living after 1122) and Ibrea (or
Ybri) de Trevers.

3. Thomas Fitz Gospatric, born say 1130/5, died 1201, married Grace
_____.

4. Aline Fitz Thomas, born say 1160/5, living 1219, married William de
Furness (or Fleming), he was of age before 1164.

5. Michael de Furness, born about 1198 (aged 6 in 1204), died 1230/34.

6. William de Furness, born c. 1215/1219 (allegedly aged 14 at his
father's death), living 1262.

I'm sure that more evidence can be provided to show that Gospatric Fitz
Orm was born in or before 1110. For now, I think the above is
sufficient to prove that the theory you have presented in your recent
Foundations article regarding Gospatric Fitz Orm's maternity is
untenable for three reasons: (1) Passage of lands; (2) Onomastic
evidence; and most basic of all, (3) chronology. Also, your
interpretation of the Latin phrase "matre ejus" can not be sustained.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

ClaudiusI0@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/28/2005 2:06:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Gospatric Fitz Orm, who I estimate was born say 1110.


Dear Doug,

The chronology of this family can be documented.


Gravilda was born before 1075 as her father Gospatric earl of Northumberland
was dead in 1074. Symeon of Durham [Symeonis Dunelmensis Opera et
Collectanea, Vol. II, Surtees Society Publication, Andrews & Co., Durham, 1868, pp.
199] records that just before his death Gospatric was visited by two monks from
Jarrow abbey Aldwin and Turgot. Gospatric confessed his sins and died and was
buried in the porch of the church at Melrose. Symeon dates this to 1074 in
Vol. I, pp. 111 where he states that this trip took place from Jarrow to
Melrose. The confession was taken at Ubbanford [Norham]. So the latest birth date
for Gravilda was 1075.

Gospatric son of Orm first comes into documented records in 1150 as he
witnessed a charter of Henry [ son of David I, king of Scotland] with Bishop
Athewold to Holm Cultram Abbey. Gospatric would have been at least 14 when he
witnessed this charter. Gospatric died ca.1179. In 1174 he granted a charter to
Holm Cultram with the consent of his son Thomas [his heir] and another son
Alan which was witnessed at Camberton before Robert de Vallibus who was justice
itinerant in 1174. These dates seem to make it much more likely that
Gospatric was born ca. 1120-1125 which would eliminate Gravilda from being his
mother.

The next documented record of Thomas son of Gospatric occurs in 1185 when he
made an agreement with Adam de Kerkebi (Pipe rolls 31 Henry I). He died
between November 13, 1200 (Charter Rolls, 2 John, m. 27 dorso; Pipe Roll, 2 John)
and 1201(Rot. de Oblations, pp. 157, 179, 194; Westmoreland Pipe Roll, 3
John).

Based on the above data Thomas son of Gospatric would appear to have been
born ca. 1155-1160 making the logical birth date ca. 1120-1125 for Gospatric.

In the eleventh century for a woman to be married and give birth to her
first child at 45-50 is very improbable.

MIchaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 21:26:02

In my last message I made a mistake. In the portion as follows

<< go back to Douglas? message where he has it correct. Elgiva/Egilina,

I wish those scribes would write correctly, is clearly Gospatric?s wife

and Ebrea/Ibria is clearly his mother-in-law. Now I will concede that
the widow Ibria in her old age may have married Gospatric as his second

wife, but had no issue, and it is not unreasonable that a mother and
daughter would have a close relationship with a father and son.>>

Should have read: Ibria in her old age may have married Orme as his
second wife.

Regrets,

Dix Preston

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 21:40:23

Douglas:

You were writing this post as I was writing mine. I agree completely
with your interpretation in this matter and the line you present
although my chronolgy is about 5 years before yours. I salute you.

Regards,

Dix Preston

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 nov 2005 21:53:49

Dear Dix ~

Ibrea (or Ybri) de Trevers may have married (2nd) Orm Fitz Ketel as you
suggest, but the standard interpretation of the charter evidence we
have discussed is that Ibrea was the mother of Gospatrick Fitz Orm's
wife, Egliva. I tend toward the standard interpretation. Whichever is
correct, Ibrea can not have been Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, as Ibrea
was still married to her known husband, Ranulph Engaine, some years
after Gospatric Fitz Orm was born. Also, the evidence shows that
Gospatric Fitz Orm inherited the maritagium of Gravelda of Dunbar,
which fact indicates that Gravelda (and no one else) was Gospatric Fitz
Orm's mother.

In medieval research, the passage of lands and chronology are paramount
to correctly understanding the scraps of evidence which have survived
the mists of time.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: royalancestry.net

FDP527@aol.com wrote:
In my last message I made a mistake. In the portion as follows

go back to Douglas? message where he has it correct. Elgiva/Egilina,

I wish those scribes would write correctly, is clearly Gospatric?s wife

and Ebrea/Ibria is clearly his mother-in-law. Now I will concede that
the widow Ibria in her old age may have married Gospatric as his second

wife, but had no issue, and it is not unreasonable that a mother and
daughter would have a close relationship with a father and son.

Should have read: Ibria in her old age may have married Orme as his
second wife.

Regrets,

Dix Preston

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 28 nov 2005 21:59:11

Thank you for your kind words, Dix. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

FDP527@aol.com wrote:
Douglas:

You were writing this post as I was writing mine. I agree completely
with your interpretation in this matter and the line you present
although my chronolgy is about 5 years before yours. I salute you.

Regards,

Dix Preston

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 22:25:03

After reviewing the *relevant* information which consists, in my opinion,
solely of the papal dispensation, it now appears, based on John's presentation of
the chronological argument, that Elizabeth Beke, wife of Robert de
Swynnerton, Knt, could not be descended in the way Living Descendents of Blood Royal,
Vol 2, "Kitchen", pg 496-499 shows it.

In the absence of any additional *relevant* documentation I have now placed
her as the grandaughter of Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford d 1372.

Will Johnson

Chris Phillips

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 28 nov 2005 22:31:09

Douglas Richardson wrote:
I'm sure that more evidence can be provided to show that Gospatric Fitz
Orm was born in or before 1110. For now, I think the above is
sufficient to prove that the theory you have presented in your recent
Foundations article regarding Gospatric Fitz Orm's maternity is
untenable for three reasons: (1) Passage of lands; (2) Onomastic
evidence; and most basic of all, (3) chronology. Also, your
interpretation of the Latin phrase "matre ejus" can not be sustained.


I think it is important to be clear about what MichaelAnne Guido claims to
have proved, and what she doesn't.

What she does is to produce two charters in which Gospatric's mother
("mater") is named as Ebrea. I cannot understand how you can argue that it
is Elgiva's mother who is being described, when the second charter of
Gospatric describes her as "Ebrea matre mea". That is absolutely
unambiguous, isn't it? If you are actually arguing that "mater" in this
context is likely to mean "mother in law", I agree with Nat Taylor that it
would be helpful if you could produce a comparable example.

The question of Ebrea's parentage is a separate one, and MichaelAnne herself
describes her suggestion as to Ebrea's identity as "speculation". Perhaps it
can be demonstrated that this suggestion is impossible on chronological
grounds, but is it really safe to assume that Ranulph's grant to Carlisle
could not have taken place until 1122? VCH Cumberland vol. 2 says this about
the foundation of Carlisle Priory:

"We naturally look to Carlisle for the earliest evidence of ecclesiastical
life and movement in the new province which had been added to the English
kingdom in 1092. It has been pointed out that very early in his reign, most
probably in 1102, Henry I. granted a site within the city for the purpose of
founding a religious establishment. For various reasons already stated,
little else seems to have been done till after the political changes of
1120-2, when Ranulf Meschin, the civil ruler, left the district and the king
took it into his own hand. From this date onward a vigorous policy was
carried on for its ecclesiastical development. How much progress had been
made with the building of the church or the religious organization of the
city during Ranulf's consulate we cannot tell. ..."

In any case, whatever the truth about Ebrea's parentage, there is clearly no
chronological argument against Gospatric's mother bearing this name. Indeed,
even your own chronology doesn't seem particularly favourable for
Gravelda/Gunnilda to be Gospatric's mother. You estimate Gospatric's birth
at about 1113. Even if she were born posthumously, this would have her
giving birth to Gospatric at the age of 38. More likely she would be at
least 40. That is extremely late if Gospatric is supposed to be her eldest
son.

As I said before, I agree the passage of land would Gospatric was
Gravelda's/Gunnilda's son in the absence of evidence to the contrary (though
I think the chronology would make us think twice). I don't see how it can
prevail against the direct evidence of the charters.

And as Todd Farmerie pointed out, the onomastic evidence might have some
force if Gospatric was a very rare name in that time and place. But it
wasn't, was it?

Chris Phillips

Chris Phillips

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 28 nov 2005 22:33:24

Douglas Richardson wrote:
I'm sure that more evidence can be provided to show that Gospatric Fitz
Orm was born in or before 1110. For now, I think the above is
sufficient to prove that the theory you have presented in your recent
Foundations article regarding Gospatric Fitz Orm's maternity is
untenable for three reasons: (1) Passage of lands; (2) Onomastic
evidence; and most basic of all, (3) chronology. Also, your
interpretation of the Latin phrase "matre ejus" can not be sustained.


I think it is important to be clear about what MichaelAnne Guido claims to
have proved, and what she doesn't.

What she does is to produce two charters in which Gospatric's mother
("mater") is named as Ebrea. I cannot understand how you can argue that it
is Elgiva's mother who is being described, when the second charter of
Gospatric describes her as "Ebrea matre mea". That is absolutely
unambiguous, isn't it? If you are actually arguing that "mater" in this
context is likely to mean "mother in law", I agree with Nat Taylor that it
would be helpful if you could produce a comparable example.

The question of Ebrea's parentage is a separate one, and MichaelAnne herself
describes her suggestion as to Ebrea's identity as "speculation". Perhaps it
can be demonstrated that this suggestion is impossible on chronological
grounds, but is it really safe to assume that Ranulph's grant to Carlisle
could not have taken place until 1122? VCH Cumberland vol. 2 says this about
the foundation of Carlisle Priory:

"We naturally look to Carlisle for the earliest evidence of ecclesiastical
life and movement in the new province which had been added to the English
kingdom in 1092. It has been pointed out that very early in his reign, most
probably in 1102, Henry I. granted a site within the city for the purpose of
founding a religious establishment. For various reasons already stated,
little else seems to have been done till after the political changes of
1120-2, when Ranulf Meschin, the civil ruler, left the district and the king
took it into his own hand. From this date onward a vigorous policy was
carried on for its ecclesiastical development. How much progress had been
made with the building of the church or the religious organization of the
city during Ranulf's consulate we cannot tell. ..."

In any case, whatever the truth about Ebrea's parentage, there is clearly no
chronological argument against Gospatric's mother bearing this name. Indeed,
even your own chronology doesn't seem particularly favourable for
Gravelda/Gunnilda to be Gospatric's mother. You estimate Gospatric's birth
at about 1113. Even if she were born posthumously, this would have her
giving birth to Gospatric at the age of 38. More likely she would be at
least 40. That is extremely late if Gospatric is supposed to be her eldest
son.

As I said before, I agree the passage of land would Gospatric was
Gravelda's/Gunnilda's son in the absence of evidence to the contrary (though
I think the chronology would make us think twice). I don't see how it can
prevail against the direct evidence of the charters.

And as Todd Farmerie pointed out, the onomastic evidence might have some
force if Gospatric was a very rare name in that time and place. But it
wasn't, was it?

Chris Phillips

Peter Sutton

RE: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Peter Sutton » 28 nov 2005 22:50:02

Whoever she was, the following court case quoted in SC XV page 122, shown
that the wife of Nicholas Beke and the mother of Elizabeth Beke, was married
to Sir Nicholas by 30 March 1347.

At a plea of Assize taken at Lichfield before Hugh Huls and Roger Horton,
with whom was associated Thomas Heuster, Justices assigned, etc., on the
Tuesday after the Feast of St. Peter ad Vincula 9 H. IV -
"...............The jury stated that as regarded the manor of Teyne, one
Nicholas Beek, chivaler, the grandfather of Matilda the plaintiff, and whose
heir she was, viz. father of Elizabeth, mother of the said Matilda, was
formerly seised in demesne as of fee of the manor, and by his deed which was
given in evidence, and which was dated from Teyne the Friday after the Feast
of the Annunciation 21 E.III, had granted it to one John Beek, the parson of
Chekeley, and the said John Beek, being so seised of the manor, had
reconveyed it to the said Nicholas, and to one Joan, late his wife, and to
the heirs of their bodies, and after the deaths of Nicholas and Joan, the
said manor of Teyne descended to one Elizabeth, as their daughter and heir
....................."



Peter Sutton

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 nov 2005 23:07:02

Dear Douglas and Michael Anne,
You both make good arguments
for supposing that Gospatric son of Orme `s mother was In Douglas` case
Gravelda of Dunbar and in Michael Anne`s case Ebrea. You have both used primary
records to good effect, but could Gravelda have been a daughter of Gospatric II
rather than Gospatric I ?

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Main

Gjest

Re: Nicholas de Beke's mother

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 00:38:02

In a message dated 11/26/05 5:53:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,
c@windsong.org.uk writes:

<< Seymour predeceased Alice, who was in
sole possession of their Munslow estate by 1285. She conveyed it to
Robert de Beke and his wife Maud, Ermyntrude's sister; (fn. 57)
Robert and Maud presumably possessed John de Chandurs's share, for by
1316 Robert was sole lord of Munslow. (fn. 58) Maud predeceased him
c. 1324 (fn. 59) and by 1348 his son Nicholas de Beke (kt. 1348, d.
1369) was lord. (fn. 60) >>

Chris thank you for finding and posting this, which leads to the question of
whether Maud (Matilda) or Mary (Mariota) was the mother of Nicholas Beke.

Although SC XV 114 calls the widow Mary "his other" having Hopton in dower,
it's not clear that they really made the correct identification here. He was
of an age to be son of either wife.

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Nicholas de Beke's Grandmother

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 29 nov 2005 01:47:01

Dear Will (and Cris, Robert O'Connor, et al.),

Thanks for bringing this up.

This extract from VCH provided by Cris Nash appears to differ with
WSAS II:100-106, where it appears there were two Roberts (de Beke),
grandfather and father of Nicholas de Beke. The first Robert de Beke
had two wives, Maud/Matilda de Hertwell and (2ndly) Elizabeth, the last
of whom was allegedly the mother of the 2nd Robert.

From the passage of Munslow per VCH, if that is the sole
modification to the WSAS text, it would appear that Mary stands as
mother to Sir Nicholas, but that Maud/Matilda de Hertwell was the
mother of the 2nd Robert, and grandmother of Sir Nicholas de Beke.

Opinions (or documentation), anyone ?

Cheers,

John



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/26/05 5:53:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,
c@windsong.org.uk writes:

Seymour predeceased Alice, who was in
sole possession of their Munslow estate by 1285. She conveyed it to
Robert de Beke and his wife Maud, Ermyntrude's sister; (fn. 57)
Robert and Maud presumably possessed John de Chandurs's share, for by
1316 Robert was sole lord of Munslow. (fn. 58) Maud predeceased him
c. 1324 (fn. 59) and by 1348 his son Nicholas de Beke (kt. 1348, d.
1369) was lord. (fn. 60)

Chris thank you for finding and posting this, which leads to the question of
whether Maud (Matilda) or Mary (Mariota) was the mother of Nicholas Beke.

Although SC XV 114 calls the widow Mary "his other" having Hopton in dower,
it's not clear that they really made the correct identification here. He was
of an age to be son of either wife.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 03:24:02

In a message dated 11/28/05 12:07:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, FDP527@aol.com
writes:

<< One needs to make a
serious look at chronology which I have humbly attempted to do. >>

Your seriousness is offset by your lack of adequately presenting the error
margins of your dates. Using "abt" for estimates that range three to four
generations away from a documented *event* is simply asking for trouble in my
opinion.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 03:40:02

In a message dated 11/28/05 12:22:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< We know that Gospatric Fitz Orm issued a charter to St. Bees Priory
sometime in the period, 1138-1157, which charter was witnessed by his
first cousin, Alan Fitz Waltheof, his brothers-in-law, William and
Gilbert Engaine, his wife Elgiva, his mother-in-law, Ebrea [de
Trevers], and his three sons, Thomas, Adam, and Robert [Reference:
Register of the Priory of St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915): 60-61]. >>

We don't know this. Where is the text of this charter? I looked the one
MichaelAnne posted and the name Thomas does not appear to be in it at all, let
alone Adam or Robert. So can you post this so we can look at it?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 nov 2005 03:41:47

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a further followup to my earlier posts, I had the opportunity today
of checking a few sources today which relate to the early history of
Cumberland.

Regarding my estimated birthdate of c. 1110 for Gospatric Fitz Orm, I
have a couple of additional comments to add to the discussion. In my
earlier post, I dated one of the charters of Gospatric Fitz Orm to St.
Bees Priory as being in the period, 1138-1157. I find elsewhere that
Gospatric Fitz Orm and William Engaine both witnessed a charter dated
c. 1150 to Holm Cultram issued by Earl Henry son of King David I of
Scotland [Reference: Grainger and Collingwood, The Register and Records
of Holm Cultram, 1929, pp. 91-92]. The charter was also witnessed by
Athelwold, Bishop of Carlisle, who held that position from 1133-1156.
Inasmuch as Gospatric Fitz Orm and William Engaine are associated
together in this charter which is dated c. 1150, I think a date of c.
1150 is also reasonable to assign to Gospatric's own charter to St.
Bees Priory. As indicated earlier, the St. Bees charter was witnessed
by William Engaine and by Gospatric Fitz Own's own sons, Thomas, Adam,
and Robert. If so, I think we can likewise safely assign a revised
birth date of no later than c. 1130 to Gospatric's eldest son, Thomas.

As far as Gospatric Fitz Orm's own birthdate is concerned, I find that
in a pedigree chart of the Fitz Orm family in Transactions of the
Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Soc.n.s. 14, pg. 432, Gospatric
Fitz Orm is assigned a birthdate of c. 1100. However, unless other
evidence is forthcoming, I'm prepared to accept a birthdate of c.
1105-1110 for Gospatric Fitz Orm himself, based on the revision of
Gospatric's son, Thomas' birthdate as being c. 1130.

With respect to Robert Fitz Orm, who Ms. Guido assigns as a brother to
Gospatric Fitz Orm, Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq.
& Arch. Soc.n.s. 14, pg. 3 states "There does not seem to be one
[charter] existing in which he is actually given as "fratre meo" by
Gospatrick, but we have not all of Gospatrick's charters, and therefore
not all the possible and usual varieties of description." In other
words, the evidence is lacking to prove that Robert Fitz Orm was the
brother of Gospatric Fitz Orm. For now, I'm content to assign
Gospatric Fitz Orm only one brother, Michael, who is specifically
called Gospatric's brother in one of Gospatric's charters to Wetheral
Priory [Reference: J.E. Precott, Registry of the Priory of Wetheral
(1897), pg. 249]. Beyond that I think is pressing the evidence.

With respect to the first St. Bees charter in which Ebrea occurs as
witness for Gospatric Fitz Orm, I find that Rev. Frederick W. Ragg in
his article, "De Culwen," has translated the witness list of this
charter to read "Eglina wife of him, Gospatrik, Ebrea her mother."
[Reference: Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch.
Soc.n.s. 14, pg. 383]. So we find another party who has translated
the witness list to mean that Ebrea was Gospatric Fitz Orm's wife's
mother, not his own mother. I believe Rev. Ragg has translated this
Latin passage correctly.

With respect to the document known as "Chronicon Cumbrie" which records
that Gospatric Fitz Orm's father, Orm Fitz Ketel, was granted various
manors in marriage with Gravelda, sister of Waltheof son of Earl
Gospatric, I find that there have been three (not two) versions of this
document in print, they being Monasticon Anglicanum, 3: 584, Register
of St. Bees, pp. 530-533, and Register of the Priory of Wetheral.
Among other statements made in this document, it is alleged that
Waltheof son of Earl Gospatric gave Wigton to Odard de Logis, alias
Odard the Sheriff. This land grant is confirmed by evidence presented
in Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Soc.n.s.
27, pg. 43. The document also states that Alan Fitz Waltheof gave
Torpenhow with its advowson to Uchtred Fitz Fergus, lord of Galloway,
with "Gornella" his sister. This statement is likewise confirmed by
Hedley, Northumberland Families, pg. 241, who states that Uchtred Fitz
Fergus and Gunnilda his wife gave the church of Torpenhow to the canons
of Holy Rood at Edinburgh, citing Liber Cartaram Sanctae Crucis,
Bannatyne Club, pp. 19-20. So two statements made in the Chronicon
Cumbie are verified as being accurate.

Regarding Gravelda of Dunbar's parentage, it is noted in at least two
sources that neither she or her son, Gospatric Fitz Orm, nor two of her
younger sisters shared in the inheritance of the family estates on the
death of Gravelda's nephew, Alan Fitz Waltheof. Alan Fitz Waltheof was
living in 1139, and is thought to have been alive as late as 1150. He
was certainly dead before 1157. Rather, the entire inheritance went to
Alan Fitz Waltheof's first cousin, William Fitz Duncan (died 1157), who
was the son of Etheldreda, the sister of Alan's father, Waltheof.
Hedley, Northumberland Families, pg. 241, assumes that Waltheof's
sister, Etheldreda, was Waltheof's sole legitimate sister, and that
Waltheof's two brothers, Gospatric and Dolfin, were both illegitimate.
He also suspects that Gravelda and her two sisters, Octreda and
Matilla, were also illegitimate. However, Transactions of the
Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Soc.n.s. 29, pp. 70-71 has a
different take regarding the family inheritance. It states "Descent
was traced from Waldeve's son, Alan ... and consequently the nearest
heir male of the whole blood was Etheldred's son, William [Fitz
Duncan]." In other words, Etheldreda's son, William Fitz Duncan,
inherited Alan Fitz Waltheof's estates, he being the heir of the whole
blood, to the exclusion to Alan Fitz Waltheof's other uncles and aunts
(including Gravelda), who were heirs of the half-blood. The author
adds the following explanatory comment: "The rules of descent prevalent
at that period differed from those in force at the present day and are
stated in Blackstone's Commentaries, edit. Christian, 1799, vol. ii,
pg. 223." I assume this passage in Blackstone concerns itself with the
laws relating to inheritance of the full blood, to the exclusion of
heirs of the half-blood. If it can be shown that this custom prevailed
in this time period, then I think a good case could be made that
Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda, was half-sister to Waltheof and
Etheldreda, not their full-sister.

Regarding the gift of Ranulph Engaine and his wife, Ibrea de Trevers,
to Carlisle Priory, it seems virtually certain that Burns and
Nicholson must have seen a transcript of their original charter to
Carlisle Priory, as I find that the published transcript of King Henry
II's confirmation charter states only that this grant was the gift of
"Ranulph Engaine and his heir," not Ranulph Engaine and his wife,
Ibrea, as Burns and Nicholson state. Also the confirmation charter of
King Henry II makes no mention of Hugh de Morville's charter which
confirmed Ranulph and Ibrea's grant to Carlisle, which second charter
is mentioned by Burns and Nicholson. For the confirmation charter of
King Henry II of various gifts to Carlisle Priory, see Dugdale,
Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 144. The fact that Ranulph and
Ibrea's son, William, joined them in the grant to Carlisle Priory
indicates that William was of the sufficient age to witness and consent
to his parents' charter. Once again, we have an indication which makes
it virtually impossible for Ibrea de Trevers to be the mother of
Gospatrick Fitz Orm. For mention of other grants to Wetheral Priory by
Ranulph Engaine, his wife, Ibrea (or Ybri), and their son and heir,
William, see Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 3 (1821): 591-592.

At this point, I'd very much like to hear from someone as to what Dr.
Katherine Keats-Rohan has to say about these people in her book,
Domesday Descendants. If someone has a copy of Keats-Rohan's book, I'd
appreciate it greatly if they would post the information regarding
these families here on the newsgroup. I believe it's time we heard
from Dr. Keats-Rohan.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 03:43:01

In a message dated 11/28/05 12:07:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, FDP527@aol.com
writes:

<< (1) FILIUS ORM, GOSPATRIC

?Son of Orm, son of Chetel son of Eldred, of Workington, Cumberland.
Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 120-cl; Pipe Roll 9 Henry II, 10-cl; Pipe Roll 10
Henry II, 2-cl; Pipe Roll 11 Henry II, 54-cl; Pipe Roll 12 Henry II,
88-cl;? Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page #
not copied

(2) ?1157 ?Gospatric son of Orm is with the king's court at Woodstock.
Coucher of Furness, pait i, 344.? Source: Farrer, ?Records of Kendale?,
Vol II, page 298

(3) ?1175 ?Gospatric son of Orm renders account of 20 marks to the
Crown for a default. Pipe Roll, 21 Henry n, p. 178.? Source: Farrer,
?Records of Kendale?, Vol II, p 298

(4) ?1176 ?Gospatric son of Orm accounts for an a mercement of 500
marks for the surrender of the king's castle of Appeibi to the king of
Scots. Pipe Roll, 22 Henry n, 119.? Source: Farrer, ?Records of
Kendale?, Vol II, p 298 >>


These don't add anything. We know he died abt 1179
The problem is not determining when he DIED, its determining when he was BORN
:)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 03:45:02

In a message dated 11/28/05 1:06:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< but the standard interpretation of the charter evidence we
have discussed is that Ibrea was the mother of Gospatrick Fitz Orm's
wife, Egliva. I tend toward the standard interpretation. Whichever is
correct, Ibrea can not have been Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, as Ibrea
was still married to her known husband, Ranulph Engaine, some years
after Gospatric Fitz Orm was born. >>

You have not shown any of the above whatsoever.
You guess at the birthyear of Gospatric, and then later say its proven. It's
not.
We know he was a witness in 1150 and we know he was dead probably by 1179.

If you have more documentary evidence to date him, present it.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 03:48:02

In a message dated 11/28/05 12:22:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Michael de Furness would, of course, be a great-grandson of
Gospatrick Fitz Orm. Using the 85 year rule of thumb for three
generations which I have employed in earlier posts, if we subtract 85
years from 1198, >>

Or we can use the Will Johnson, error margin rule, which says that a father
can be *anywhere* between 17 and 60
So a great-grandson tells us nothing useful at all about his
great-grandfather.

Isn't it time to stop these ridiculous chronologic arguments that reach four
generations away to destroy a line? They aren't convincing anybody.

Will Johnson

butlergrt

Helewise/Hawise daughter of Warin Lancaster

Legg inn av butlergrt » 29 nov 2005 04:50:08

Good Evening Will and All. I had posted about 5 hours
ago a totally different choronology based on charters only and it still is
in the not posted file, rather long but part of what I have found and
fills in some of these long gaps and makes other descents? well it is
obvious:

A Charter: William de Lancaster grants to Gervase de Ainecurt L15 worth of
land etc. Witness:Jordan the grantors son, Gilbert the grantors son, etc.
"the Grantor being William de Lancastre"
Record of Kendal Vol I Helsington and Sizergh, orig. D. at Sizergh
Henry II gave to William Marshall the custody of the heir of William de
Lancastre; see Kirkby in Kendale.
Thiw William de Lancastre(above was the one married to Gundred de Warren
they had 3 sons
1. William
2. Jordan
3. Gilbert

William Mareescallus(Marshall) confirms to Gervase de eincurt his
tenements which William de Lancastre gave him as his charter testifies" to
hold of the said William Marshall and his heirs...etc.witness:Thomas son
of Gospatrick, Gilbert de Lancastre, Roger Croft, Roger son of Adam Henry
son of Norman, Geoffrey de Prestun, Geoffrey son of Robert William
Waleran, Matthew Gernet, William de Kettovill, Richard son of Alard
William de Bevill, Gamel the forester;orig. D. at Sizergh,ibid.

Jordan disappears and presumed oldest and middle of the three, as he
signed first but not necesarrily, but This Gilbert de Lancaster, Williams
youngest brother, becomes the next Lord of Kendal-not Gilbert fitzReinfrid
that married Hawise daugher of William .. in fact it is Gilbert's son
Warin(Warin was steward to King Henry II and was granted custody of
lancaster castle) that marries Heleweise dau of Stuteville Lord of
Knaresborough whose daughter Helewise who marries Gilbert fitzReinfrid who
Then becomes lord of Kendal in the right of his wife.

Gilbert fitzReinfrid does not become Lord of Kendal until 6 John(1205) It
is recorded as I am sure you all know that Gilbert fitzReinfreid was one
of the barons that forced K. John to sign the Magna Carta. When King John
laid seige to Rochester, Gilbert's son William (de Lancaster) the future
Lord of Kendal was found hiding and taken prisoner there. Gilbert had to
provide hostages and had to give up the castles Merhull and Kirkeby to the
king. Gilbert obtained his pardon which was ratified by HenryIII in the
first year of his reign. William remained Lord of Kendal and was high
sheriff of Lancashire from 18 Henry III thru 30 Henry III at the timne of
his death.
The first part is long and full of charters and a totally different line
of descent from Ivo based on these charters. Hope it comes thru. Hopae I
didn't make to many mistakes in typing etc.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

butlergrt

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's More info

Legg inn av butlergrt » 29 nov 2005 05:29:37

Good Evening Douglas,
Gospatric 1st Earl of Northumberlands dau. Ethelreda married Duncan II
whose son William fitzDuncan of Skipton and Earl of Moray mar. Alice
Meschines dau of William Meschines of Copeland
William fitzDuncans daughter Cecily married Gilluam "le Gros" Count of
Aumale Lord of Holderness(come back to this further down)

(Gos)patrick 5th Earl of Dunbar married Ada daughter of William the Lion
King of Scotland.

Orm son of Ketel Lord of Atterdalemarried the daughter of gospatrick Earl
of Northumberland whos father was Mal;dred of fAtterdale whose brother was
duncan I, King of the Scots his great Uncle and Gospatric gg grandson
Married Ada(above)
It is no small wonder that Henry II fined him 500 marks for surrending
castle Appleby without a fight, besides being quite old this was his
family. Henry II piope roll, everwicher(Yorkshire) 1176

In the national archives in the History of Cumberland Vol. II, The Abbey
of Calden, in the barony of copeland, it lists Ranulph Meschines who
deeded land 10 jan. 1134 and his brother William Meschines the priori of
Bees. Ranulph and brother-in-law William son of Duncan confirm a land
grant to the abbey by Cecily (of above) along with Beatrice de Molle who
bestowed to the monks 5 oxgangs in Little Gilcrux and 1/4 of the Mill in
Great Gilcrux confirmed by Adam son of Uchtred her Uncle, as the gift of
William, his nephew as the charter of said William son of Liolf de Molle
testified".
I thought you might find this added history interesting if you were not
aware of it.
Best
Emmett L. Butler

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 nov 2005 07:52:18

Dear Newsgroup ~

Regarding the death date of Gospatric Fitz Maldred, Earl of Dunbar,
Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 504 (sub Dunbar) gives the following
information:

"Being, however, deprived of that post in Oct. or Nov. 1072, he fled to
Scotland, receiving from Malcolm III "Dunbar with the adjacent lands in
Lothian." He died probably about 1075, and most likely is the
"Gospatricus Comes" whose monument was at Durham. He is stated in
Hoveden to have died and been buried at Ubbanford [i.e., Norham], not
long after his flight to Scotland." END OF QUOTE

This information given above essentially comes from Roger de Hoveden 1
(Rolls Ser. 51) (1868): 59, which source can be viewed online on the
gallica website at the following weblink:

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre ... on&Y=Image

Roger de Hoveden gives no date for the death of Gospatric, except to
say it took place "not long after his flight to Scotland." Beyond the
above details, Hoveden states that Gospatric had three sons, Dolfin,
Waltheof, and Gospatric.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 29 nov 2005 07:58:59

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Dix ~

Ibrea (or Ybri) de Trevers may have married (2nd) Orm Fitz Ketel as you
suggest, but the standard interpretation of the charter evidence we
have discussed is that Ibrea was the mother of Gospatrick Fitz Orm's
wife, Egliva.

This does not become any more true just because you keep repeating it.

I tend toward the standard interpretation.

There is a surprise.

Whichever is
correct, Ibrea can not have been Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, as Ibrea
was still married to her known husband, Ranulph Engaine, some years
after Gospatric Fitz Orm was born.

That is only the case IF your document is correctly dated, which has
been questioned AND IF the Ibrea of MichaelAnne's document is the same
as Ibrea de Trevers. This is utterly worthless if either of these are
not true.

Also, the evidence shows that
Gospatric Fitz Orm inherited the maritagium of Gravelda of Dunbar,
which fact indicates that Gravelda (and no one else) was Gospatric Fitz
Orm's mother.

The evidence shows that Gospatric later held land that she had brought
to Orm. The evidence does not document inheritance. Further, the
chronology militates against it.

In medieval research, the passage of lands and chronology are paramount
to correctly understanding the scraps of evidence which have survived
the mists of time.

It is the scraps that are paramount. The passage of lands, chronology,
onomastics, etc. are secondary. As to chronology, it only seems to be
paramount in your eyes if it agrees with you. The fact that it would
seem to make Gunnilda in her late 30s before she has her first child you
seem to be willing to overlook. Paramount unless it suits you
otherwise, it seems.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 29 nov 2005 08:00:52

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Douglas and Michael Anne,
You both make good arguments
for supposing that Gospatric son of Orme `s mother was In Douglas` case
Gravelda of Dunbar and in Michael Anne`s case Ebrea. You have both used primary
records to good effect, but could Gravelda have been a daughter of Gospatric II
rather than Gospatric I ?

She is identified as sister of Waltheof, so the intended father is clear.

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 nov 2005 08:31:07

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

The evidence shows that Gospatric later held land that she had brought
to Orm. The evidence does not document inheritance. Further, the
chronology militates against it.

taf

The passage of the lands which formed Gravelda of Dunbars' maritagium
to Gospatric Fitz Orm is excellent evidence that Gospatric was
Gravelda's son. Frankly, I wished such evidence existed for every
medieval problem we discussed here on the newsgroup. It would make
things much easier for all of us. As it stands, this one is a walk in
the park.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Stafford

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 10:03:53

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

After reviewing the *relevant* information which consists, in my opinion,
solely of the papal dispensation, it now appears, based on John's presentation of
the chronological argument, that Elizabeth Beke, wife of Robert de
Swynnerton, Knt, could not be descended in the way Living Descendents of Blood Royal,
Vol 2, "Kitchen", pg 496-499 shows it.

In the absence of any additional *relevant* documentation I have now placed
her as the grandaughter of Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford d 1372.

Will Johnson

Just like that *worthless* Visitation has? ;)

MAR

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 10:07:02

Douglas Richardson schrieb:

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

The evidence shows that Gospatric later held land that she had brought
to Orm. The evidence does not document inheritance. Further, the
chronology militates against it.

taf

The passage of the lands which formed Gravelda of Dunbars' maritagium
to Gospatric Fitz Orm is excellent evidence that Gospatric was
Gravelda's son. Frankly, I wished such evidence existed for every
medieval problem we discussed here on the newsgroup. It would make
things much easier for all of us. As it stands, this one is a walk in
the park.

The problem with walks in the park is that you can get mugged...

Chris Phillips

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 29 nov 2005 10:33:20

Douglas Richardson wrote:
With respect to the first St. Bees charter in which Ebrea occurs as
witness for Gospatric Fitz Orm, I find that Rev. Frederick W. Ragg in
his article, "De Culwen," has translated the witness list of this
charter to read "Eglina wife of him, Gospatrik, Ebrea her mother."
[Reference: Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch.
Soc.n.s. 14, pg. 383]. So we find another party who has translated
the witness list to mean that Ebrea was Gospatric Fitz Orm's wife's
mother, not his own mother. I believe Rev. Ragg has translated this
Latin passage correctly.


For what it's worth, J. F. Curwen, in "A History of the Ancient House of
Curwen ..." (1928), translates it in the same way. But it's hardly
surprising they should assume Ebrea was Eglina/Elgiva's mother, as both of
them presumably believed that Gospatric's mother was Gravelda/Gunnilda, and
no one is disputing that "her mother" is a correct - and probably the
natural - translation of "matre ejus".

I don't see the point of continuing to analyse the meaning of "ejus" here,
when we have a second charter of Gospatric in which the wording is "Egeliva
uxore mea, Ebrea matre mea", which doesn't involve any ambiguity. And I
don't believe"mater" here means mother-in-law. Perhaps the word could have
been used loosely to mean mother-in-law, but in this context, where Egeliva,
the supposed daughter, is the last person who has been mentioned, it would
surely have been far more natural - as well as accurate - to write "Egeliva
uxore mea, Ebrea matre ejus".

If that second charter were spurious, things would be very different, but if
it is genuine I don't see any getting round it.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 15:23:48

52. WJhon...@aol.com Nov 28, 9:38 pm Will Johnson wrote:

<<These don't add anything. We know he died abt 1179
The problem is not determining when he DIED, its determining when he
was BORN>>

Very good, we all know the problem. I was merely adding some additional
*documentation* to the discussion as most readers would realize.

Respectfully,

Dix Preston

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 17:45:04

Douglas Richardson Nov 28, 9:41 pm Subject: Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's
mother, Gravelda of Dunbar wrote:

<<At this point, I'd very much like to hear from someone as to what Dr.
Katherine Keats-Rohan has to say about these people in her book,
Domesday Descendants. If someone has a copy of Keats-Rohan's book, I'd
appreciate it greatly if they would post the information regarding
these families here on the newsgroup. I believe it's time we heard
from Dr. Keats-Rohan.>>

Dear Douglas:

I post below all of what Keats-Rohan has to say on the Taillebois and
Lancaster decent that I was able to copy a number of months ago. This
was before I was concerned about the Engaine family so I don’t know if
she covered them. I no longer have access to the book.

In my message FDP...@aol.com Nov 27, 6:36 pm I posted:

In her book, “DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS: PROSOPOGRAPHY OF PERSONS OCCURRING
IN ENGLISH DOCUMENTS 1066-1166; II. Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum;” K.
S. B. Keats-Rohan, THE BOYDELL PRESS, she provides the following chart
along with biographies of the individuals. This construction differs
from most accepted lines in the literature, and is argued against by
some of the “experts” of soc.genealogy.medieval.

*K. S. B. Keats-Rohan’s Chart: The family of Lancaster or Taillebois

Ivo m. (2)
Taillebois Lucy dau. Of
d. 1093 m. (1) Turold
N.N.
I
Beatrice d. m. (2)
by1121 m. (1) Ribald fl.
Eldred 1086
________I_______ _______
I___________________
I I I
I I I
Ketel Godith Ralph
Hervey Rainald William
m. m. Taillebois
Christina Gilbert of m.
I Lancaster Agnes de
I I Brus
I I
___ I____ I
I I I
Orm William William of m. (2)
I Lancaster or Gundrada of
I Taillebois Warwick
I fl. 1120-1170
I m. (1) N. N.
I I_____________
I I I
Gospatric Avice m. William II
William II Peverel d. 1184 *

* IVO DE TAILLEBOIS: Ivo Taillebois, probably brother of Ralph
Taillebois, a sheriff of Bedfordshire who was dead by 1086, was a
prominent administrator throughout the reign of William I and well into
that of William II. He appears to have been twice married since he was
ancestor of the English family surnamed 'of Lancaster' or Taillebois
who descended from the thegn Eldred, alive in 1086. In 1093 he can be
seen to have had a daughter Beatrice, then married to Ribald of
Richmond. She was dead in 1121, when Ivo's widow Lucy was married to
her third husband. Lucy and Beatrice, probably widow of Eldred before
marriage to Ribald, were contemporaries, so Lucy must have been Ivo's
second wife. She was the daughter of Ivo's predecessor as sheriff of
Lincoln, Turold, who was probably a Norman. Her mother undoubtedly had
English ancestry since she was the daughter of William Malet, a sheriff
of York who seems to have had English maternal antecedents.* Source:
DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 35

*TAILLEBOIS, BEATRIX: Daughter of Ivo Taillebois (q.v.) and his unknown
first wife. Clay thought Beatrice was probably illegitimate (EYC, v,
291), because none of Ivo's property passed to Ribald with his wife
Beatrice. Ivo's second wife Lucy was an important heiress whose
inheritance formed the basis of the land Ivo held in Domesday Book This
fief, the honour of Bolingbroke, was inherited by the two sons of
Lucy's subsequent marriages, whereas Ivo's own barony of Kendal,
granted after 1086 went (possibly) to Ketel son of Eldred and then to
Ketel’s nephew William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster, surnamed Taillebois
(Sanders, 56). In the late twelfth century the writer Peter of Blois
claimed that Ivo had had a sole daughter, ‘nobly married’ Defective
genealogies, in the Cockersand Cartulary and the Register of St Mary's
York (Cockersand Cart., ii, pp. 305-8) made William a descendant of
Eldred and Ivo Taillebois, who must have been father of Eldred's wife.
Beatrice is known to have married Ribald, half-brother of the
Conqueror's Breton cousin Count Alan before 1093; Monasticon
Anglicanum. III, p. 553 no. xx. She was dead by c 1121 at the time of
a gift to St Mary's by Ribald and their son Ralph Taillebois: Given
that Ketel Fitz Eldred, his nephew William of Lancaster, and Ralph
fitz Ribald, were all active c.1120, .just a few years before Ivo’s
widow buried her third husband, one can conclude that Beatrice was a
legitimate heir of Ivo by a wife previous to Lucy, who was Beatrice's
contemporary, and that she was first the wife of the Englishman Eldred
and subsequently the wife of Ribald. For the descendants of Beatrice
and Ribald see Rev. H. C. Fitz Herbert An original pedigree ofTailbois
and Neville', The Genealogist, ns iii, 31. Clay. Early Yorkshire
Charters (1936), V, no. 358.* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S.
B. Keats-Rohan, page 1121

*FILIUS ELDRED, KETEL: Son of Eldred and a daughter of Ivo Taillcbois
(q.v.), some of whose land in the barony of Kendal he inherited.
Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees, founded 1120, to which he gave land
in Morland and Workington (Register St Bees, pp. 233 -34, no. 212) with
the assent of his wife Christiana and son William. Father also of Orm,
whose son Gospatric was his eventual heir. His grant of land to St
Leonard's, York, was confirmed by his sister's son William fitz Gilbert
of Lancaster (q.v.). He died several years after 1120. G.
Washington, ‘The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal',
Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological
Society 62 (1962). Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, III, pp. 548-60,
no. V.* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page
881

In my message FDP...@aol.com Nov 26, 9:21 pm I posted

*DE LANCASTRIA, WILLELM FILIUS GILBERTI : William of Lancaster, also
known as William Taillebois, son of Gilbert and Goditha, sister of
Ketel son of Eldred. A defective genealogy in the Cockersand Cartulary
(vol. II. pp. 305-8) made him great-grandson of Eldred and
great-great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, who was therefore father of
Eldred's wife. In fact, a charter in which he made a grant to St
Leonard's York also contained a confirmation of the gift of his
maternal uncle ('avunculus') Ketcl fitz Eldred, thus establishing that
he was grandson of Eldred. From this it can be inferred that he was a
great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, whose post-Domesday barony of Kendal
he held. First occurs c.l120. In 1166 he held 2 fees de novo of Roger
de Mowbray at Kendale and Lonsdale in Westmorland and Horton in
Ribblesdale, Yorkshire. Twice married, secondly, by 1156, to Gundrada,
widow or daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). Father of Jordan
(d.v.p.), William II (d. l184), and Avice, second wife of William II
Peverel of Nottingham and secondly wife of Richard de Morville (J.
Green, 'Ranulf II and Lancashire', in Earldom of Chester and its
Charters, ed. Thackeray, p. 107n.). G. Washington, 'The parentage of
William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal', Transactions
Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society 62
(1962). Helwise, daughter and heiress of William II of Lancaster (d.
1184), married Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who became lord of
Kendal in Westmorland in her right (Sanders, 57). Cronnc/Davis, RRAN
III, no. 337; Dugdale, Monuslicon Anglicanum, III, p. 577, no. III:
Greenway, Charters of The Honour of Mowbray (1972), no. 370; F.
Ragg.? Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539


In my post FDP...@aol.com Nov 28, 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Gospatric Fitz
Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

*FILIUS ORM, GOSPATRIC: Son of Orm, son of Chetel son of Eldred, of
Workington, Cumberland. Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 120-cl; Pipe Roll 9 Henry
II, 10-cl; Pipe Roll 10 Henry II, 2-cl; Pipe Roll 11 Henry II, 54-cl;
Pipe Roll 12 Henry II, 88-cl;* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S.
B. Keats-Rohan, page # not copied

In my post FDP...@aol.com Nov 29, 9:54 am Subject: Re: Gilbert
fitzReinfrid son
and heir..Further..

*DE LANCASTRIA, GILBERT: His son and successor William fitz Gilbert of
Lancaster was nephew of an Englishman Ketel son of Eldred whose sister
Godith was Gilbert's wife. His father is unknown. William occurs from
c. 1120-70, G. Washington, 'The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord
of Kendal'. Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian &
Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Dugdale. Monuslicon Anglicanum,
III, p. 577, no. III; Greenway, Charters of the Honour of Mowbrey
(1972), no. 370; F. Ragg, Charter’s of St Peter's (St Leonard's
Hospital, York', TCWAAS (1909), p. 237* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS;
by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539.


*DE LANCASTRIA, WILLELM FILIUS GILBERTI: William of Lancaster, also
known as William Taillebois, son of Gilbert and Goditha, sister of
Ketel son of Eldred. A defective genealogy in the Cockersand Cartulary
(vol. II. pp. 305-8) made him great-grandson of Eldred and
great-great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, who was therefore father of
Eldred's wife. In fact, a charter in which he made a grant to St
Leonard's York also contained a confirmation of the gift of his
maternal uncle ('avunculus') Ketcl fitz Eldred, thus establishing that
he was grandson of Eldred. From this it can be inferred that he was a
great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, whose post-Domesday barony of Kendal
he held. First occurs c.l120. In 1166 he held 2 fees de novo of Roger
de Mowbray at Kendale and Lonsdale in Westmorland and Horton in
Ribblesdale, Yorkshire. Twice married, secondly, by 1156, to Gundrada,
widow or daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). Father of Jordan
(d.v.p.), William II (d. l184), and Avice, second wife of William II
Peverel of Nottingham and secondly wife of Richard de Morville (J.
Green, 'Ranulf II and Lancashire', in Earldom of Chester and its
Charters, ed. Thackeray, p. 107n.). G. Washington, 'The parentage of
William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal', Transactions Cumberland &
Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Helwise,
daughter and heiress of William II of Lancaster (d. 1184), married
Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who became lord of Kendal in
Westmorland in her right (Sanders, 57). Cronnc/Davis, RRAN III, no.
337; Dugdale, Monuslicon Anglicanum, III, p. 577, no. III: Greenway,
Charters of The Honour of Mowbray (1972), no. 370; F. Ragg.*
Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539

Lastly, after reviewing all I have and found this last note was not
posted before:

*DE WARENNE,GUNDREDA: Daughter of William II de Warenne. She married
first Roger earl of Warwick (1119-53) by whom she had issue two sons
and two daughters, and seconfly William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster, whom
she married before 1156. Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 145-rt; Pipe Roll 4
Henry II, 185-wk; Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 26-wk; Red Book of the
Exchequuer, ed. Hall (1897), pp 324-27.* DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K.
S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 777.

Hope this answers your request,

Respectfully,

Dix Preston

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 29 nov 2005 18:14:26

FDP527@aol.com wrote:
DOUGLAS HAS IT EXACTLY CORRECT.

On what basis are you so adamant that this is the case? You have
already said you don't read Latin, so it can't be that (the primary
basis of his dismissal of Ms. Guido's argument). Is it simply because
he agrees with your reconstruction?


In my message 42. FDP...@aol.com Nov 26, 4:50 pm; Subject: Re:
Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further.. I presented a Theory of
the descendants of Eldred. In this construct, I had Gospatric FitzOrm
as follows:

Descendants of Eldred of Northumbria

1. Eldred/Etheldred of Northumbria (approx b. 1018) alive 1086 d. bef
1093 [Keats-Rohan p. 1121] m. (1) Aldgytha/ Adgitha [ref 1] Eldred aka
Etret aka Ughtret and others

Again, to be cleared up. Eald-red is not the same as AEthel-red, from
Ead-red and from Ucht-red. They share the same second element but not
the first. Sometimes a scribe might get confused and use the wrong one
by accident, but we need to be careful here, and not


In her message 37. Claudiu...@aol.com Nov 28, 12:12 pm Subject: Re:
Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar she writes:

Gravilda was born before 1075 as her father Gospatric earl of
Northumberland
was dead in 1074. Symeon of Durham [Symeonis Dunelmensis Opera et
Collectanea, Vol. II, Surtees Society Publication, Andrews & Co.,
Durham, 1868, pp.
199] records that just before his death Gospatric was visited by two
monks from
Jarrow abbey Aldwin and Turgot. Gospatric confessed his sins and died
and was
buried in the porch of the church at Melrose. Symeon dates this to
1074 in
Vol. I, pp. 111 where he states that this trip took place from Jarrow
to
Melrose. The confession was taken at Ubbanford [Norham]. So the
latest birth date
for Gravilda was 1075.

This exactly what I documented in my second message. However, she leaps
45 years in accounting for Gospatric?s birth. I fear she has jumped a
generation to make a fit with her Eberia as mother of Gospatric theory.

No, she based her reconstruction on when Gospatric starts to appear in
documents. This is at least as accurate a way (and if there is
sufficient available documents, a more accurate means) than
extrapolating from later or earlier generations, an approach which
itself assumes genealogical connections.


I find all the messages in this thread provide plenty of
?documentation? but demonstrate a lot of confusion with individuals
playing ?my record is better than your record.? One needs to make a
serious look at chronology which I have humbly attempted to do.

And so has she, but the two of you have reached different conclusions -
hou do you resolve this without simply stating "my chronology is better
than yours"?

I go back to Douglas? message where he has it correct.

Based on . . . his agreement with your reconstruction?

Elgiva/Egilina,
I wish those scribes would write correctly,

I am not sure this is a problems of scribes so much as of later people
reading what they want to see into the document. Elgiva is a perfectly
valid Anglo-Saxon name. Egelina a Norman one. It looks like someone is
trying to force it to be something it is not.

is clearly Gospatric?s wife
and Ebrea/Ibria is clearly his mother-in-law.

This is far from clear, when Gospatric refers to her as "matre mea" - my
mother. This is testimony that in any other context would require
strong evidence to reject, but here seems not to because of the greater
implications and vested interests.

Now I will concede that
the widow Ibria in her old age may have married Gospatric as his second

(that she married Orm, not Gospatric, is the implication)

wife, but had no issue, and it is not unreasonable that a mother and
daughter would have a close relationship with a father and son.

This is not the issue at all - not whether Orm married her but that
Gospatric called her "my mother". If you reject this direct statement,
then there is no reason to consider or concede that Ibrea married into
the family at all - based on the evidence at hand she cannot be viewed
as Orm's wife without being Gospatric's mother, as the only evidence for
the marriage is _that_ she was Gospatric's mother.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 29 nov 2005 18:17:16

Douglas Richardson wrote:

Using these records, the following chronology can be constructed which
harmonizes well with the facts as we have them:

1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, born before 1075, minor
and unmarried at her father's death in 1075. She married Orm Fitz
Ketel, who I believe was an adult in 1094.

2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1110, died c. 1177. He married Egliva
Engaine, daughter of Ranulph Engaine (living after 1122) and Ibrea (or
Ybri) de Trevers.


Here we have it - _your_ chronology and she is in her late 30s when she
has her oldest son. How often is that the case for a woman at this period?

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 nov 2005 18:36:30

Dear Newsgroup ~

In Ms. Guido's post earlier this week, she alleged that the chronology
of Gospatric Fitz Orm was so out of line with the Dunbar family as to
make it improbable that Gravelda of Dunbar to be his mother. But is
it? Let's see for ourselves.

One way to double check Ms. Guido's allegation is to examine the
chronology for the outer generations of Gospatric Fitz Orm's
descendants and those of Gravelda's three known siblings who left
descendants. If Ms. Guido is correct, we should find that the
chronology of Gospatric Fitz Orm's line to be much later than those of
Gravelda's siblings. What do we find? In all four instances below,
the fourth generation is pretty much where we would expect it to be.
The birthdates of the fourth generation ranges from 1152 to in or
before 1175. The average birth date of the great-grandchild in the
four branches is 1162. Where is Gospatric Fitz Orm's grandchild:
1160/5, right where she should be if she was a great-granddaughter of
Gravelda of Dunbar. Is the chronology of the family of Gospatric Fitz
Orm way out of line? Not at all. In fact, it fits right in with the
rest of the Dunbar family tree.

We'll start with the line of Gravelda first, then followed by her
brothers, Waltheof and Gospatric, and her sister, Etheldreda.

Line 1:

1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, m. Orm Fitz Ketel.
2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1105/1110.
3. Thomas Fitz Gospatric, born say 1130.
4. Aline Fitz Thomas, born say 1160/5.

Line 2:

Waltheof Fitz Gospatric.
Gunnilda Fitz Waltheof, m. Uchred Fitz Fergus.
Roland Fitz Uchtred, born in or before 1150.
Alan Fitz Roland, born before 1175 (of age before 1196).

Line 3:

1. Gospatric II, Earl of Dunbar.
2. Gospatric III, Earl of Dunbar, born 1100.
3. Waltheof of Dunbar, born say 1130.
4. Patrick, Earl of Dunbar, born 1152.

Line 4:

1. Etheldreda of Dunbar, m. Duncan II, King of Scotland.
2. William Fitz Duncan, born say 1094.
3. Cecily, married William, Count of Aumale.
4. Hawise of Aumale, born c. 1160.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 nov 2005 19:22:27

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:

Using these records, the following chronology can be constructed which
harmonizes well with the facts as we have them:

1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, born before 1075, minor
and unmarried at her father's death in 1075. She married Orm Fitz
Ketel, who I believe was an adult in 1094.

2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1110, died c. 1177. He married Egliva
Engaine, daughter of Ranulph Engaine (living after 1122) and Ibrea (or
Ybri) de Trevers.


Here we have it - _your_ chronology and she is in her late 30s when she
has her oldest son. How often is that the case for a woman at this period?

taf

A point of clarification. You've stated above that Gospatric Fitz Orm
was Gravelda's "oldest son." (your words). As you are well aware, due
to the high infant mortality in the medieval time period, there is
often a big difference in age between "oldest son" and "oldest
surviving son." In this case, due to the lack of records, I think it
is best that we refer to Gospatric as Gravelda's oldest known surviving
son.

Also, with the new dating of Gospatric Fitz Orm's charter to St. Bees
Priory at c. 1150, I've revised the birth estimates of Gospatric Fitz
Orm and his son, Thomas, to be c. 1105/1110 and c. 1130 respectively.
I think these dates are very conservative. One source I cited
yesterday, for example, places Gospatric Fitz Orm's birth at c. 1100
[Reference: Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch.
Soc.n.s. 14, chart facing pg. 432].

All things considered, the death date of Gospatric Fitz Orm's
grandfather, Gospatric I, Earl of Dunbar, seems rather iffy to me. The
authoritative Complete Peerage says he "died about 1075" but this is
just an estimated death date. Truth is: No one knows for sure when
Gospatric I died. If he lived after 1075, it would change some of our
assumptions.

I have it from one source which I have not verified that Gospatric Fitz
Orm's father, Orm Fitz Ketel, was living in 1094. I have not verified
the date, but it seems acceptable. If we assumed that Orm Fitz Ketel
and his wife, Gravelda of Dunbar, were married by 1094, it doesn't pose
a problem for me that their eldest surviving son, Gospatric Fitz Orm,
was born c. 1105/1110.

Frankly, given the obvious lacuna in the records from 1075 to 1150, I
think we're doing very good to have the facts we do. I'm sure you
agree.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 nov 2005 20:34:01

In a message dated 11/29/2005 1:37:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
All things considered, the death date of Gospatric Fitz Orm's
grandfather, Gospatric I, Earl of Dunbar, seems rather iffy to me. The
authoritative Complete Peerage says he "died about 1075" but this is
just an estimated death date. Truth is: No one knows for sure when
Gospatric I died. If he lived after 1075, it would change some of our
assumptions.
Dear Doug,

Symeon of Durham relates the entire events surrounding his death. G. E. C.
Cockayne is not an alternative to Symeon of Durham for this period. The early
English chroniclers are the only source of many of these events and are very
reliable. John of Worcester, William of Malmesbury [used either John of
Worcester or a common source], Roger of Hovenden [who is slightly later early 13th
century], Symeon of Durham and several others. If you wish to compare chroniclers
that is another matter but you can't compare apples and oranges.

Symeon of Durham died in 1129. He was contemporary with the period.

By the way Gospatric was earl of Northumberland. He was given large tracts of
land in Lothian by Malcolm III when he fled to Scotland. He was never known
as de Dunbar.

MichaelAnne

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 29 nov 2005 21:07:49

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

Douglas Richardson wrote:


Using these records, the following chronology can be constructed which
harmonizes well with the facts as we have them:

1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, born before 1075, minor
and unmarried at her father's death in 1075. She married Orm Fitz
Ketel, who I believe was an adult in 1094.

2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1110, died c. 1177. He married Egliva
Engaine, daughter of Ranulph Engaine (living after 1122) and Ibrea (or
Ybri) de Trevers.


Here we have it - _your_ chronology and she is in her late 30s when she
has her oldest son. How often is that the case for a woman at this period?

A point of clarification. You've stated above that Gospatric Fitz Orm
was Gravelda's "oldest son." (your words). As you are well aware, due
to the high infant mortality in the medieval time period, there is
often a big difference in age between "oldest son" and "oldest
surviving son." In this case, due to the lack of records, I think it
is best that we refer to Gospatric as Gravelda's oldest known surviving
son.

Oh, right - she just had 15 years worth of infant mortality leading up
to the son so important he was named after his maternal grandfather.
You want it both ways - you want Gospatric to be named for his important
grandfather, but you also want him to come after a string of sons who
never left record.

And now you just adjust the chronology to better match the theory, and
surprise, the theory is consistent with the chronology.

Frankly, given the obvious lacuna in the records from 1075 to 1150, I
think we're doing very good to have the facts we do. I'm sure you
agree.

And one of these facts is that Gospatric calls Ebrea "my mother". In
any other context you would be parading this about as absolute evidence,
but here, being invested in the alternative, you ad hoc it out of
consideration. This is not just a fact, it is THE paramount piece of
evidence - it trumps chronology and it trumps inheritance. You dismiss
it out of hand as meaning mother-in-law without providing any examples
from this period and region and in similar context that show "my mother"
was in use as such - where "X my wife and Y my mother" actually means "X
my wife and Y _my wife's_ mother". You make a huge deal about the use
of ejus in an ambiguous context in one charter, but are perfectly
willing to ignore that "Ebrea mater ejus" would have expressed your
meaning here, but it wasn't used - _my_ mother was. All of these
chronological dances based on when people four generations later are
supposed to have been born are just fancy ways of ducking the main
issue. That is, why "my mother" should be taken as meaning anything
other than "my mother"? If he really called her his mother, then all
arguments based on chronological likelihoods become pointless (unless
they prove the stated relationship impossible, which they do not).

taf

Douglas Richardson

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 29 nov 2005 23:01:22

Dear Dix ~

Thank you for posting this information from your notes of Dr.
Keats-Rohan. Much appreciated.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

FDP527@aol.com wrote:
Douglas Richardson Nov 28, 9:41 pm Subject: Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's
mother, Gravelda of Dunbar wrote:

At this point, I'd very much like to hear from someone as to what Dr.
Katherine Keats-Rohan has to say about these people in her book,
Domesday Descendants. If someone has a copy of Keats-Rohan's book, I'd
appreciate it greatly if they would post the information regarding
these families here on the newsgroup. I believe it's time we heard
from Dr. Keats-Rohan.

Dear Douglas:

I post below all of what Keats-Rohan has to say on the Taillebois and
Lancaster decent that I was able to copy a number of months ago. This
was before I was concerned about the Engaine family so I don?t know if
she covered them. I no longer have access to the book.

In my message FDP...@aol.com Nov 27, 6:36 pm I posted:

In her book, ?DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS: PROSOPOGRAPHY OF PERSONS OCCURRING
IN ENGLISH DOCUMENTS 1066-1166; II. Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum;? K.
S. B. Keats-Rohan, THE BOYDELL PRESS, she provides the following chart
along with biographies of the individuals. This construction differs
from most accepted lines in the literature, and is argued against by
some of the ?experts? of soc.genealogy.medieval.

*K. S. B. Keats-Rohan?s Chart: The family of Lancaster or Taillebois

Ivo m. (2)
Taillebois Lucy dau. Of
d. 1093 m. (1) Turold
N.N.
I
Beatrice d. m. (2)
by1121 m. (1) Ribald fl.
Eldred 1086
________I_______ _______
I___________________
I I I
I I I
Ketel Godith Ralph
Hervey Rainald William
m. m. Taillebois
Christina Gilbert of m.
I Lancaster Agnes de
I I Brus
I I
___ I____ I
I I I
Orm William William of m. (2)
I Lancaster or Gundrada of
I Taillebois Warwick
I fl. 1120-1170
I m. (1) N. N.
I I_____________
I I I
Gospatric Avice m. William II
William II Peverel d. 1184 *

* IVO DE TAILLEBOIS: Ivo Taillebois, probably brother of Ralph
Taillebois, a sheriff of Bedfordshire who was dead by 1086, was a
prominent administrator throughout the reign of William I and well into
that of William II. He appears to have been twice married since he was
ancestor of the English family surnamed 'of Lancaster' or Taillebois
who descended from the thegn Eldred, alive in 1086. In 1093 he can be
seen to have had a daughter Beatrice, then married to Ribald of
Richmond. She was dead in 1121, when Ivo's widow Lucy was married to
her third husband. Lucy and Beatrice, probably widow of Eldred before
marriage to Ribald, were contemporaries, so Lucy must have been Ivo's
second wife. She was the daughter of Ivo's predecessor as sheriff of
Lincoln, Turold, who was probably a Norman. Her mother undoubtedly had
English ancestry since she was the daughter of William Malet, a sheriff
of York who seems to have had English maternal antecedents.* Source:
DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 35

*TAILLEBOIS, BEATRIX: Daughter of Ivo Taillebois (q.v.) and his unknown
first wife. Clay thought Beatrice was probably illegitimate (EYC, v,
291), because none of Ivo's property passed to Ribald with his wife
Beatrice. Ivo's second wife Lucy was an important heiress whose
inheritance formed the basis of the land Ivo held in Domesday Book This
fief, the honour of Bolingbroke, was inherited by the two sons of
Lucy's subsequent marriages, whereas Ivo's own barony of Kendal,
granted after 1086 went (possibly) to Ketel son of Eldred and then to
Ketel?s nephew William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster, surnamed Taillebois
(Sanders, 56). In the late twelfth century the writer Peter of Blois
claimed that Ivo had had a sole daughter, ?nobly married? Defective
genealogies, in the Cockersand Cartulary and the Register of St Mary's
York (Cockersand Cart., ii, pp. 305-8) made William a descendant of
Eldred and Ivo Taillebois, who must have been father of Eldred's wife.
Beatrice is known to have married Ribald, half-brother of the
Conqueror's Breton cousin Count Alan before 1093; Monasticon
Anglicanum. III, p. 553 no. xx. She was dead by c 1121 at the time of
a gift to St Mary's by Ribald and their son Ralph Taillebois: Given
that Ketel Fitz Eldred, his nephew William of Lancaster, and Ralph
fitz Ribald, were all active c.1120, .just a few years before Ivo?s
widow buried her third husband, one can conclude that Beatrice was a
legitimate heir of Ivo by a wife previous to Lucy, who was Beatrice's
contemporary, and that she was first the wife of the Englishman Eldred
and subsequently the wife of Ribald. For the descendants of Beatrice
and Ribald see Rev. H. C. Fitz Herbert An original pedigree ofTailbois
and Neville', The Genealogist, ns iii, 31. Clay. Early Yorkshire
Charters (1936), V, no. 358.* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S.
B. Keats-Rohan, page 1121

*FILIUS ELDRED, KETEL: Son of Eldred and a daughter of Ivo Taillcbois
(q.v.), some of whose land in the barony of Kendal he inherited.
Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees, founded 1120, to which he gave land
in Morland and Workington (Register St Bees, pp. 233 -34, no. 212) with
the assent of his wife Christiana and son William. Father also of Orm,
whose son Gospatric was his eventual heir. His grant of land to St
Leonard's, York, was confirmed by his sister's son William fitz Gilbert
of Lancaster (q.v.). He died several years after 1120. G.
Washington, ?The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal',
Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological
Society 62 (1962). Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, III, pp. 548-60,
no. V.* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page
881

In my message FDP...@aol.com Nov 26, 9:21 pm I posted

*DE LANCASTRIA, WILLELM FILIUS GILBERTI : William of Lancaster, also
known as William Taillebois, son of Gilbert and Goditha, sister of
Ketel son of Eldred. A defective genealogy in the Cockersand Cartulary
(vol. II. pp. 305-8) made him great-grandson of Eldred and
great-great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, who was therefore father of
Eldred's wife. In fact, a charter in which he made a grant to St
Leonard's York also contained a confirmation of the gift of his
maternal uncle ('avunculus') Ketcl fitz Eldred, thus establishing that
he was grandson of Eldred. From this it can be inferred that he was a
great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, whose post-Domesday barony of Kendal
he held. First occurs c.l120. In 1166 he held 2 fees de novo of Roger
de Mowbray at Kendale and Lonsdale in Westmorland and Horton in
Ribblesdale, Yorkshire. Twice married, secondly, by 1156, to Gundrada,
widow or daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). Father of Jordan
(d.v.p.), William II (d. l184), and Avice, second wife of William II
Peverel of Nottingham and secondly wife of Richard de Morville (J.
Green, 'Ranulf II and Lancashire', in Earldom of Chester and its
Charters, ed. Thackeray, p. 107n.). G. Washington, 'The parentage of
William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal', Transactions
Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society 62
(1962). Helwise, daughter and heiress of William II of Lancaster (d.
1184), married Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who became lord of
Kendal in Westmorland in her right (Sanders, 57). Cronnc/Davis, RRAN
III, no. 337; Dugdale, Monuslicon Anglicanum, III, p. 577, no. III:
Greenway, Charters of The Honour of Mowbray (1972), no. 370; F.
Ragg.? Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539


In my post FDP...@aol.com Nov 28, 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Gospatric Fitz
Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

*FILIUS ORM, GOSPATRIC: Son of Orm, son of Chetel son of Eldred, of
Workington, Cumberland. Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 120-cl; Pipe Roll 9 Henry
II, 10-cl; Pipe Roll 10 Henry II, 2-cl; Pipe Roll 11 Henry II, 54-cl;
Pipe Roll 12 Henry II, 88-cl;* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S.
B. Keats-Rohan, page # not copied

In my post FDP...@aol.com Nov 29, 9:54 am Subject: Re: Gilbert
fitzReinfrid son
and heir..Further..

*DE LANCASTRIA, GILBERT: His son and successor William fitz Gilbert of
Lancaster was nephew of an Englishman Ketel son of Eldred whose sister
Godith was Gilbert's wife. His father is unknown. William occurs from
c. 1120-70, G. Washington, 'The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord
of Kendal'. Transactions Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian &
Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Dugdale. Monuslicon Anglicanum,
III, p. 577, no. III; Greenway, Charters of the Honour of Mowbrey
(1972), no. 370; F. Ragg, Charter?s of St Peter's (St Leonard's
Hospital, York', TCWAAS (1909), p. 237* Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS;
by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539.


*DE LANCASTRIA, WILLELM FILIUS GILBERTI: William of Lancaster, also
known as William Taillebois, son of Gilbert and Goditha, sister of
Ketel son of Eldred. A defective genealogy in the Cockersand Cartulary
(vol. II. pp. 305-8) made him great-grandson of Eldred and
great-great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, who was therefore father of
Eldred's wife. In fact, a charter in which he made a grant to St
Leonard's York also contained a confirmation of the gift of his
maternal uncle ('avunculus') Ketcl fitz Eldred, thus establishing that
he was grandson of Eldred. From this it can be inferred that he was a
great-grandson of Ivo Taillebois, whose post-Domesday barony of Kendal
he held. First occurs c.l120. In 1166 he held 2 fees de novo of Roger
de Mowbray at Kendale and Lonsdale in Westmorland and Horton in
Ribblesdale, Yorkshire. Twice married, secondly, by 1156, to Gundrada,
widow or daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick (d. l153). Father of Jordan
(d.v.p.), William II (d. l184), and Avice, second wife of William II
Peverel of Nottingham and secondly wife of Richard de Morville (J.
Green, 'Ranulf II and Lancashire', in Earldom of Chester and its
Charters, ed. Thackeray, p. 107n.). G. Washington, 'The parentage of
William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal', Transactions Cumberland &
Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society 62 (1962). Helwise,
daughter and heiress of William II of Lancaster (d. 1184), married
Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who became lord of Kendal in
Westmorland in her right (Sanders, 57). Cronnc/Davis, RRAN III, no.
337; Dugdale, Monuslicon Anglicanum, III, p. 577, no. III: Greenway,
Charters of The Honour of Mowbray (1972), no. 370; F. Ragg.*
Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 539

Lastly, after reviewing all I have and found this last note was not
posted before:

*DE WARENNE,GUNDREDA: Daughter of William II de Warenne. She married
first Roger earl of Warwick (1119-53) by whom she had issue two sons
and two daughters, and seconfly William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster, whom
she married before 1156. Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 145-rt; Pipe Roll 4
Henry II, 185-wk; Pipe Roll 5 Henry II, 26-wk; Red Book of the
Exchequuer, ed. Hall (1897), pp 324-27.* DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K.
S. B. Keats-Rohan, page 777.

Hope this answers your request,

Respectfully,

Dix Preston

Sutliff

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Sutliff » 29 nov 2005 23:32:52

Unfortunately in this reconstruction Douglas has done this more than once in
supplying arbitary dates to a woman who has her first child at an advanced
age. The focus has been so much on the early generations that it has slipped
under the radar of the discussion. Specfically I refer to (below):

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1133208984.496983.12590@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear MichaelAnne ~

snip

Elsewhere, I've determined that Thomas, son of Gospatrick Fitz Orm, had
a grandson, Michael de Furness, who was aged 6 in 1204, or born about
1198. Michael de Furness would, of course, be a great-grandson of
Gospatrick Fitz Orm. Using the 85 year rule of thumb for three
generations which I have employed in earlier posts, if we subtract 85
years from 1198, we obtain an estimated birthdate for Gospatric Fitz
Orm of circa 1113. We get a similar corresponding result in
chronology for his son, Thomas Fitz Gospatric, when we subtract 85
years from the approximate birthdate of his great-grandson, William de
Furness, who I believe was born c. 1215-1219. 85 years substracted
from c. 1215-1219 indicates an estimated birthdate of 1130/1134 for
Thomas Fitz Gospatric.
snip
3. Thomas Fitz Gospatric, born say 1130/5, died 1201, married Grace
_____.

4. Aline Fitz Thomas, born say 1160/5, living 1219, married William de
Furness (or Fleming), he was of age before 1164.

5. Michael de Furness, born about 1198 (aged 6 in 1204), died 1230/34.

6. William de Furness, born c. 1215/1219 (allegedly aged 14 at his
father's death), living 1262.
snip


Alice/Ada/Aline de Workington also called Ada de Furness/Furneys in
contemporary sources (or FitzThomas as Douglas chooses to call her here and
not using her contemporary source name) would be 33-38 at the birth of her
eldest son Michael in 1198. However, it is also known that she had a
younger son Daniel who was born 1199-1204, which extends her age at his
birth to 39-44, but what is most disconcerting is that Douglas makes no
mention that Alice/Ada/Aline may have subsequently married William le
Boteler of Warrington (VCH Lancs VIII:300 footnote 69 citing Lancs. Inq. and
Extents I:198.; I would add that this source does not claim her as daughter
of generation 3) and to have been mother of his son Almeric (aka
Aumericus/Emery) born 1210-1218 (Baines IV:401, etc.). If valid, this would
make Alice/Ada/Aline as old as 58 at birth of Almeric with Douglas'
chronology. I would add that VCH Lancs VIII: 300 footnote 73 states that in
a pleading in the Furness Couch, II.:466 the heirs of William le Fleming
appear to be called his grandchildren. This shows how careful we muct be in
making all this try to fit when you have two contemporary sources which give
conflicting placements.

Even if there was no evidence of a subsequent marriage for Alice/Ada/Aline,
it is difficult to accept that she would give birth to her eldest child at
age 38 as suggested. This construction would also require 20 years of infant
mortality before the births of Michael and Daniel. Also as Michael and
Daniel were perhaps the two most common names among this family, it would be
hard to justify that there were previous male children who died as infants.
Certainly not impossible, but highly unlikely.

So here is a second woman in the same descent for whom a chronology is
proposed to give the desired result. I readily admit that I am a bit
uncomfortable with Alice/Alice/Ada being the mother of Almeric le Boteler
with any certainty, but I am even more uncomfortable with her first child
being born (followed by a second) at such an adavnced age in this proposed
scenario.

To be fair, I have also contacted MichaelAnne about the birthdate of 1155
for Ada/Alice/Aline in her article which makes her 42 at the birth of
Michael. Something seems quite wrong here.

HS



"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:438cb518@news.ColoState.EDU...
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

Douglas Richardson wrote:


Using these records, the following chronology can be constructed which
harmonizes well with the facts as we have them:

1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, born before 1075, minor
and unmarried at her father's death in 1075. She married Orm Fitz
Ketel, who I believe was an adult in 1094.

2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1110, died c. 1177. He married Egliva
Engaine, daughter of Ranulph Engaine (living after 1122) and Ibrea (or
Ybri) de Trevers.


Here we have it - _your_ chronology and she is in her late 30s when she
has her oldest son. How often is that the case for a woman at this
period?

A point of clarification. You've stated above that Gospatric Fitz Orm
was Gravelda's "oldest son." (your words). As you are well aware, due
to the high infant mortality in the medieval time period, there is
often a big difference in age between "oldest son" and "oldest
surviving son." In this case, due to the lack of records, I think it
is best that we refer to Gospatric as Gravelda's oldest known surviving
son.

Oh, right - she just had 15 years worth of infant mortality leading up to
the son so important he was named after his maternal grandfather. You want
it both ways - you want Gospatric to be named for his important
grandfather, but you also want him to come after a string of sons who
never left record.

And now you just adjust the chronology to better match the theory, and
surprise, the theory is consistent with the chronology.

Frankly, given the obvious lacuna in the records from 1075 to 1150, I
think we're doing very good to have the facts we do. I'm sure you
agree.

And one of these facts is that Gospatric calls Ebrea "my mother". In any
other context you would be parading this about as absolute evidence, but
here, being invested in the alternative, you ad hoc it out of
consideration. This is not just a fact, it is THE paramount piece of
evidence - it trumps chronology and it trumps inheritance. You dismiss it
out of hand as meaning mother-in-law without providing any examples from
this period and region and in similar context that show "my mother" was in
use as such - where "X my wife and Y my mother" actually means "X my wife
and Y _my wife's_ mother". You make a huge deal about the use of ejus in
an ambiguous context in one charter, but are perfectly willing to ignore
that "Ebrea mater ejus" would have expressed your meaning here, but it
wasn't used - _my_ mother was. All of these chronological dances based on
when people four generations later are supposed to have been born are just
fancy ways of ducking the main issue. That is, why "my mother" should be
taken as meaning anything other than "my mother"? If he really called her
his mother, then all arguments based on chronological likelihoods become
pointless (unless they prove the stated relationship impossible, which
they do not).

taf

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Addition: Parentage of Alice Beauchamp, wife of Tho

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 30 nov 2005 00:26:46

I wrote:
Well, at any rate the relationships he [Roskell] gives are his own
interpretation -
apparently they don't come from any other text of the codicil than the one
we've seen in the Calendar of Patent Rolls, which has seemingly been
translated into Latin and then back into English.


I have to eat my words here. Roskell had evidently looked at the original
text of the Patent Roll, which is not accurately represented by the Calendar
in this case.

I looked at the Patent Roll today. Unfortunately the relevant line is on a
kind of crease in the parchment, as a result of which it is quite worn, but
as best as I could read it, it says that Elizabeth is to marry by the advice
"matris sue auunculi ip'ius p'ris n'ri Exon' d'ni Walt'i Beauchamp' ad....
Thes' hos[... ...]* & Auunculi sui d'ni Rad'i Buttiler consanguinei sui".
[*Presumably "hospitii regis" - "of the royal household" - as the Calendar
gives.]

The Calendar renders this as the advice "of her mother, of the king's uncle,
of Exeter, of Sir Walter Beauchamp, then treasurer of the Household, and of
her uncle, Sir Ralph Butiller".

I can see that the "&" makes things confusing, but the fact that
"consanguinei sui" ("her kinsman") comes after Ralph's name must mean that
"& Auunculi sui" ("and her uncle") must refer to Sir Walter Beauchamp, not
to Ralph, just as Roskell has it.

This interpretation also backs up Roskell's argument that the Sir Walter
Beauchamp who was the treasurer of the royal household was a younger
brother - not the elder son - of Elizabeth's father William.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 00:37:12

The text of my last message should have read G.E.C. [Cokayne-Complete
Peerage].

MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 00:37:26

In a message dated 11/29/05 9:52:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< Line 1:

1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, m. Orm Fitz Ketel.
2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1105/1110.
3. Thomas Fitz Gospatric, born say 1130.
4. Aline Fitz Thomas, born say 1160/5.

Line 2:

Waltheof Fitz Gospatric.
Gunnilda Fitz Waltheof, m. Uchred Fitz Fergus.
Roland Fitz Uchtred, born in or before 1150.
Alan Fitz Roland, born before 1175 (of age before 1196).

Line 3:

1. Gospatric II, Earl of Dunbar.
2. Gospatric III, Earl of Dunbar, born 1100.
3. Waltheof of Dunbar, born say 1130.
4. Patrick, Earl of Dunbar, born 1152.

Line 4:

1. Etheldreda of Dunbar, m. Duncan II, King of Scotland.
2. William Fitz Duncan, born say 1094.
3. Cecily, married William, Count of Aumale.
4. Hawise of Aumale, born c. 1160. >>

Except that 69% of your dates are made.... up
There's that :)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's More info

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 00:37:28

In a message dated 11/28/05 8:36:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:

<< Gospatric 1st Earl of Northumberlands dau. Ethelreda married Duncan II
whose son William fitzDuncan of Skipton and Earl of Moray mar. Alice
Meschines dau of William Meschines of Copeland >>

"Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe", Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan;
Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
states that he married Gruaidh and had
1) Donald /MacWilliam/ d 1187 in battle
2) Gospatrick, Lord of /Airton/
3) William, Lord of /Egremont/

Was he married more than once? What primary reference shows this?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 00:37:29

In a message dated 11/28/05 11:07:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< "Being, however, deprived of that post in Oct. or Nov. 1072, he fled to
Scotland, receiving from Malcolm III "Dunbar with the adjacent lands in
Lothian." He died probably about 1075, and most likely is the
"Gospatricus Comes" whose monument was at Durham. He is stated in
Hoveden to have died and been buried at Ubbanford [i.e., Norham], not
long after his flight to Scotland." END OF QUOTE >>

How is Leo then deriving an exact date of 15 Dec 1075
Here are the citations off his site.

1. [S00119] The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of
Wales, Edinburgh, 1977, Paget, Gerald, Reference: I 166
2. [S00623] Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who came to
America bef.1700, 7th Edition, 1992, Weis, Frederick Lewis, Reference: 37, 41
3. [S00058] The Complete Peerage, 1936 , Doubleday, H.A. & Lord Howard de
Walden, Reference: IV 504
4. [S00010] A Genealogical History of the dormant, abeyant, forfeited and
extinct peerages of the British Empire, London, 1866, Burke, Sir Bernard,
Reference: 603

Gjest

Re: Helewise/Hawise daughter of Warin Lancaster

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 00:37:44

In a message dated 11/28/05 7:52:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:

<< Gilbert obtained his pardon which was ratified by HenryIII in the
first year of his reign. William remained Lord of Kendal and was high
sheriff of Lancashire from 18 Henry III thru 30 Henry III at the timne of
his death. >>

What was the first year in which we know William was called Lord of Kendal
And what is the last year in which we know Gilbert is so-called ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's More info

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 10:34:04

WJhonson@aol.com schrieb:

In a message dated 11/28/05 8:36:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:

Gospatric 1st Earl of Northumberlands dau. Ethelreda married Duncan II
whose son William fitzDuncan of Skipton and Earl of Moray mar. Alice
Meschines dau of William Meschines of Copeland

"Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe", Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan;
Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
states that he married Gruaidh and had
1) Donald /MacWilliam/ d 1187 in battle
2) Gospatrick, Lord of /Airton/
3) William, Lord of /Egremont/

Was he married more than once? What primary reference shows this?

Louda & Maclagan is not infallible. Other sources differ (sorry, I
have nothing primary to hand). Weir's Royal Families has:

1. Duncan II (c1060-1094) married c1090 Ethelreda; issue:
2. William Fitz Duncan (d c1154) married Alice, Lady of Skipton
(heiress); issue:
3. William MacWilliam, Lord of Egremont (d after 1155) married Gruaidh
of Moray; issue:
4a. Donald MacWilliam (d 1187)
4b. Gospatric MacWilliam (d before 1208)

However, Leo shows William FitzDuncan marrying both Gruaidh and Alice
[quoting Paget and Ancestral Roots].

Any primary sources out there, or are we left with a tussle between
pygmies?

MAR

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Parentage of Alice Beauchamp, wife of Tho

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 18:01:36

Chris Phillips schrieb:

I have to eat my words here. Roskell had evidently looked at the original
text of the Patent Roll, which is not accurately represented by the Calendar
in this case.

I looked at the Patent Roll today. Unfortunately the relevant line is on a
kind of crease in the parchment, as a result of which it is quite worn, but
as best as I could read it, it says that Elizabeth is to marry by the advice
"matris sue auunculi ip'ius p'ris n'ri Exon' d'ni Walt'i Beauchamp' ad....
Thes' hos[... ...]* & Auunculi sui d'ni Rad'i Buttiler consanguinei sui".
[*Presumably "hospitii regis" - "of the royal household" - as the Calendar
gives.]

The Calendar renders this as the advice "of her mother, of the king's uncle,
of Exeter, of Sir Walter Beauchamp, then treasurer of the Household, and of
her uncle, Sir Ralph Butiller".

I can see that the "&" makes things confusing, but the fact that
"consanguinei sui" ("her kinsman") comes after Ralph's name must mean that
"& Auunculi sui" ("and her uncle") must refer to Sir Walter Beauchamp, not
to Ralph, just as Roskell has it.

This interpretation also backs up Roskell's argument that the Sir Walter
Beauchamp who was the treasurer of the royal household was a younger
brother - not the elder son - of Elizabeth's father William.

Good research, Chris - very interesting, thanks. It is always useful
to get a bit more of an insight into Roskell's work.

Gjest

Re: Tawyer of Raunds, Northamptonshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 19:22:40

A tawyer, of course, was a white-leather worker. A family of this
name, not known to be connected with those of Raunds, were prominent in
the early settlement of British North America, where their name is
usually spelt "Tayer" (they hailed from Thornbury in Gloucestershire).
The name is normally spelled Toyer in modern England, and is
concentrated in Huntingdonshire and Bedfordshire.

Gjest

Re: Helewise/Hawise daughter of Warin Lancaster

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 19:23:46

In a message from WJhon...@aol.com Nov 29, 5:37 pm Will Johnson wrote:


<<In a message dated 11/28/05 7:52:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,

butler...@aol.com writes:

<< Gilbert obtained his pardon which was ratified by HenryIII in the
first year of his reign. William remained Lord of Kendal and was high
sheriff of Lancashire from 18 Henry III thru 30 Henry III at the timne
of
his death. >>

What was the first year in which we know William was called Lord of
Kendal
And what is the last year in which we know Gilbert is so-called ?
Thanks
Will Johnson >>

Dear Will: I see that you are still having trouble with your William de
Lancasters. At the risk of further abuse, I thought that I might help a
bit if you really want answers to the above questions and perhaps a
short tutorial on early Kendal….

I suggest you go to….http://www.edenlinks.co.uk/RECORDS/FAR/INTRO.HTM

Records of Kendale Vol 1 by William Farrer Litt.
Edited by John F. Curwen, F.S.A.
Introduction

I’m still interested in seeing that charter I asked you for. Thanks in
advance.

Cheers,

Dix Preston

butlergrt

Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother,Ada Boteler

Legg inn av butlergrt » 30 nov 2005 22:48:13

Hello HS and All,
Yes it does seem difficult that Ada would have had William Botelers' son
at that age altho not impossible, what is more likely the case as I have
seen that he was first married to a Dionius and married Ada 2nd, Almuric
was already born and as William Fleming was already dead d.c. 1203, they
didn't necessarily have to have children together.
I would also be amiss if I did not confess that I had seen at one point in
time in my research on the Botelers that Ada de Workington(Furness) as she
is refered to in one charter I have seen, was married a 3rd time between
William Fleming and William Boteler.
An interesting side note: besides Gospatrick son of Orm's unfortunate
situation being related in a number of ways to William the Lion, King of
Scotland and being fined 500 marks for surrenduring Appleby Castle in
1174, he was also King Henry II cousin. Imagine being caught between two
Kings, both family? It was probably the only reason he wasn't beheaded.
See Below
Lines below:
Line A Line B

Maldred Brother of Duncan I
had: had:
Gospatrick MalcolmIII
had: had:
Orm of Kendals (wife) Matilda of Scotland
had: mar. King Henry I
Gospatrick son of Orm had:
Emp. Maud
had:
King Henry II

Line C:
King Duncan I
had:
King Maclcolm III
had:
King David I
had:
Henry, E. of Huntingdon, mar. Ada de Warren,dau of
William de Warren.
had:
King William the Lion of Scotland
As can be seen, poor Gospatric fitzOrm besides other marriages in-between,
William the Lions mother, Ada de Warren's sister "Gundred de Warrenne" was
Gospatrics 1st cousin, William de Lancasters wife!!!!!!!! Even I don't
know how I would have gotten out of that one.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Gjest

Re: Ada of Workington

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 23:38:02

In a message dated 11/29/05 9:15:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
suthen@redshift.com writes:

<< Alice/Ada/Aline de Workington also called Ada de Furness/Furneys in
contemporary sources (or FitzThomas as Douglas chooses to call her here and
not using her contemporary source name) would be 33-38 at the birth of her
eldest son Michael in 1198. However, it is also known that she had a
younger son Daniel who was born 1199-1204, which extends her age at his
birth to 39-44, but what is most disconcerting is that Douglas makes no
mention that Alice/Ada/Aline may have subsequently married William le
Boteler of Warrington (VCH Lancs VIII:300 footnote 69 citing Lancs. Inq. and
Extents I:198.; I would add that this source does not claim her as daughter
of generation 3) and to have been mother of his son Almeric (aka
Aumericus/Emery) born 1210-1218 (Baines IV:401, etc.). If valid, this would
make Alice/Ada/Aline as old as 58 at birth of Almeric with Douglas'
chronology. I would add that VCH Lancs VIII: 300 footnote 73 states that in
a pleading in the Furness Couch, II.:466 the heirs of William le Fleming
appear to be called his grandchildren. >>


Based on the above information, I'm going to show her with a birthrange of
1163/85, probably more toward the latter end though.

Will

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Parentage of Alice Beauchamp, wife of Tho

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 nov 2005 23:54:02

In a message dated 11/29/05 9:22:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<< This interpretation also backs up Roskell's argument that the Sir Walter
Beauchamp who was the treasurer of the royal household was a younger
brother - not the elder son - of Elizabeth's father William. >>

But William did have a son named Walter as well per ..... damn I forgot to
cite my source :~(

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Parentage of Alice Beauchamp, wife of Tho

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 00:10:03

In a message dated 11/29/05 9:22:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<< This interpretation also backs up Roskell's argument that the Sir Walter
Beauchamp who was the treasurer of the royal household was a younger
brother - not the elder son - of Elizabeth's father William. >>

Chris why does he have to be younger ? and not an elder brother?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Helewise/Hawise daughter of Warin Lancaster

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 01:11:02

In a message dated 11/30/05 3:16:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, FDP527@aol.com
writes:

<< Im still interested in seeing that charter I asked you for. Thanks in
advance. >>

You must mean the charter that you stated absolutely proves the relationship
and yet which you apparently have never seen .....

That charter.

And no I'm having no problem at all with my William's of Lancaster. I'm
stating, point-blank, that the charter you're referring to, does not prove what
you're claiming it proves :)

Hope that's straight-forward enough to follow. I know I'm sometimes obtuse.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel REPLY

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 01:54:01

In a message dated 11/30/05 4:09:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:

<< 1. Doug, there is a charter where in 1093/4 Ivo de Tailebois "grants part
of the manor of Heversham to the church of St. Marys' Abbey at York".

2. In 1120 Chetel(Ketel) son of Eldred confirms the grant at St. Marys'
Abbey at York made by Ivo.

3. In 1210 Gilbert fitzReinfrid and Helwise his wife confirms grant to St.
Marys'at.....
Continuity of family looks fairly strong to me anyway >>

But it could also be, just from this, for example, that Eldred is a brother
to Ivo.
So then Ketel would be confirming his *uncles* grant, not his grandfathers.
This would allow Doug to pull the generation up to where he wants to put it ;)

Will Johnsno

Gjest

Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel REPLY

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 01:58:02

In a message dated 11/30/05 4:09:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:

<< A teaser, William fitzWilliam(de Lancaster) was fined 30 marks for
dueling with his cousin(1176) Gospatrick fitzOrm in Westmoreland: pipe
roll 22 Henry II. >>

Does it actually say "cousin" or did you add that?

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Helewise/Hawise daughter of Warin Lancaster

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 01 des 2005 02:24:01

Dear Dix
I would be interested in seeing the early Kendal information, but when I
clicked on the link it said that there was "no data in this file".
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia

-------Original Message-------

From: FDP527@aol.com
Date: 12/01/05 09:50:01
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Helewise/Hawise daughter of Warin Lancaster

In a message from WJhon...@aol.com Nov 29, 5:37 pm Will Johnson wrote:


<<In a message dated 11/28/05 7:52:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,

butler...@aol.com writes:

<< Gilbert obtained his pardon which was ratified by HenryIII in the
first year of his reign. William remained Lord of Kendal and was high
sheriff of Lancashire from 18 Henry III thru 30 Henry III at the timne
of
his death. >>

What was the first year in which we know William was called Lord of
Kendal
And what is the last year in which we know Gilbert is so-called ?
Thanks
Will Johnson >>

Dear Will: I see that you are still having trouble with your William de
Lancasters. At the risk of further abuse, I thought that I might help a
bit if you really want answers to the above questions and perhaps a
short tutorial on early Kendal….

I suggest you go to….http://www.edenlinks.co.uk/RECORDS/FAR/INTRO.HTM

Records of Kendale Vol 1 by William Farrer Litt.
Edited by John F. Curwen, F.S.A.
Introduction

I’m still interested in seeing that charter I asked you for. Thanks in
advance.

Cheers,

Dix Preston

Patricia Junkin

Re: Helewise/Hawise daughter of Warin Lancaster

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 01 des 2005 02:52:01

Could you help me understand this a bit better. You seem to be indicating
here that:
1) William de Lancaster=Gundreda de Warrenne [which may be debated,
according to Will] by whom he had three sons:William, Jordan and Gilbert.
Jordan disappears but this Gilbert becomes Lord of Kendal and has a son,
Warin who married Helewisa se Stuteville? Could you provide dates?

n Dugdale's Monasticon. Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem, Clerkenwell
......; et pro salute regis Johannis Angliae ,

et sponsae, et pro salute
Willielmi de Lancastria senioris, et junioris, et sponsarum suarum,...
et pro salute Gilberti filii Rogeri, et sponsae suaem et puerorum suorum;...
et pro salute Hugonis de Morvilla, et Helewisiae sponsae suae,....
...Witnessed by among others Roberto de Lancaster and Gilberto filio...
Rogeri, filio Rainfridi.............

Thanks,
Pat
----------
From: "butlergrt" <butlergrt@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Helewise/Hawise daughter of Warin Lancaster
Date: Mon, Nov 28, 2005, 10:50 PM


A Charter: William de Lancaster grants to Gervase de Ainecurt L15 worth of
land etc. Witness: Jordan the grantors son, Gilbert the grantors son, etc.
"the Grantor being William de Lancastre"
Record of Kendal Vol I Helsington and Sizergh, orig. D. at Sizergh
Henry II gave to William Marshall the custody of the heir of William de
Lancastre; see Kirkby in Kendale.
Thiw William de Lancastre(above was the one married to Gundred de Warren
they had 3 sons
1. William
2. Jordan
3. Gilbert

Jordan disappears and presumed oldest and middle of the three, as he
signed first but not necesarrily, but This Gilbert de Lancaster, Williams
youngest brother, becomes the next Lord of Kendal-not Gilbert fitzReinfrid
that married Hawise daugher of William .. in fact it is Gilbert's son
Warin(Warin was steward to King Henry II and was granted custody of
lancaster castle) that marries Heleweise dau of Stuteville Lord of
Knaresborough whose daughter Helewise who marries Gilbert fitzReinfrid who
Then becomes lord of Kendal in the right of his wife.

Gjest

Re: Helewise/Hawise daughter of Warin Lancaster

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 02:59:02

In a message dated 11/30/05 5:47:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pajunkin@cox.net writes:

<< 1) William de Lancaster=Gundreda de Warrenne [which may be debated,
according to Will] >>

I'm not disputing that William of Lancaster married Gundred of Warenne :)

I think somebody disputed that his son William was off this Gundred and not
off a previous wife. But that someone wasn't me :)

I did point out, that IF this son William was off Gundred, then it provides
us a few narrow ranges of birthyears (in any era that seems to abound in
chronological problems) :)

Will Johnson

butlergrt

Re: Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel REPLY

Legg inn av butlergrt » 01 des 2005 04:47:34

Dear Will et al,
Actually that is the way I type, thought process, it was "and his cousin
Gospatrick fitzOrm" In the parenthesis de Lancaster is my adding in case
there were those who weren't aware of who it was referring to., sorry if
it caused any confusion., I just find the history interesting that goes
along with the people and could envision two old goofers with their swords
trying to duel it out over whatever it may be. Quite olbviously it was
stopped as William de Lancaster lived about another 7-8 years after words
died in 1184.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Addition: Parentage of Alice Beauchamp, wife of Tho

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 des 2005 10:52:22

[I wrote]
This interpretation also backs up Roskell's argument that the Sir
Walter
Beauchamp who was the treasurer of the royal household was a younger
brother - not the elder son - of Elizabeth's father William.

Will Johnson wrote:
Chris why does he have to be younger ? and not an elder brother?


Both CP and Roskell say that William was his father's son and heir, which
would imply that Walter the treasurer was his younger brother.


But William did have a son named Walter as well per ..... damn I forgot to
cite my source :~(



The source is the same entry in the patent roll that we've been discussing,
which (according to the calendar) calls Elizabeth "daughter of Sir William
Beauchamp of Powik and sister of Sir Walter Beauchamp, his son and heir".

I must admit I didn't check this part of the entry against the original.
(Perhaps I should have done, but I hope two separate mistakes wouldn't have
been made in abstracting the same entry.)

From that, it seems that William did have an elder son Walter, who
presumably died without issue, as Roskell says "Beauchamp's widow survived
until 1436, at least, and after her death the principal Beauchamp estates
fell under the terms of an entail to her son John". According to CP John was
actually the third son, and the second son Robert was living in 1432 (citing
"Dunster Honour Roll").

Roskell reads CP as identifying William's eldest son with Walter the
treasurer, but actually CP doesn't say this. Nevertheless, Roskell just
gives William one son and one daughter.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: C.P. Addition: Parentage of Alice Beauchamp, wife of Tho

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 des 2005 20:17:01

In a message dated 12/1/05 2:07:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<<
The source is the same entry in the patent roll that we've been discussing,
which (according to the calendar) calls Elizabeth "daughter of Sir William
Beauchamp of Powik and sister of Sir Walter Beauchamp, his son and heir". >>

I'm going to agree with you here, and delete the extra son "Walter" to
William. Since reading my notes again I don't find any support for his existence.
Will Johnson

Chris Phillips

Re: C.P. Addition: Parentage of Alice Beauchamp, wife of Tho

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 01 des 2005 21:56:43

I wrote:
The source is the same entry in the patent roll that we've been
discussing,
which (according to the calendar) calls Elizabeth "daughter of Sir
William
Beauchamp of Powik and sister of Sir Walter Beauchamp, his son and heir".


Will Johnson wrote:
I'm going to agree with you here, and delete the extra son "Walter" to
William. Since reading my notes again I don't find any support for his
existence.


As I read the evidence, William had an elder son Walter (a different person
from the royal treasurer), but he must have died without issue, leaving
William's son John as the eventual heir.

Chris Phillips

Douglas Richardson

Re: Exploration of the royal tombs in Westminster Abbey

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 01 des 2005 23:25:43

This is another interesting article..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4743899.stm

DR

Gjest

Re: Gundreda, dau of Roger, E. of Warwick

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 des 2005 05:37:36

In a message dated 12/1/05 5:52:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:

<< Gundreda mar.c. 1153-1156, daughter of Roger, Earl of
Warwick, cousin to Robert, Earl of Leicester >>

What is your documentary evidence that Gundred, dau of Roger, 2nd Earl of
Warwick is the one who married William of Lancaster instead of her mother Gundred
daughter of William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey?

You've stated this a few times, but so far I haven't seen your evidence.

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re:The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 des 2005 15:46:02

Douglas Richardson wrote on first December
<snip>
<William de Lancaster I conveyed by an undated
<charter the manors of Workington and Lamplugh, Cumberland to Gospatric
<Fitz Orm, in exchange for the manor of Middleton, Westmorland.
<Workington, Cumberland had previously belonged to Ketel Fitz Eldred,
<for he gave the church in that place to St. Mary's, York [Reference:
<James Wilson, Register of the Priory of St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126)
<(1915): 233-234; J.E. Prescott, Register of the Priory of Wetherhal,
<370-371]. Thus, it would appear that William de Lancaster I was the
<heir of Ketel Fitz Eldred by the date of this charter, which can be
<roughly dated as c. 1145-c. 1170, as it was joined by William de
<Lancaster I's son and heir, William II.
<
<If Ketel Fitz Eldred's heir was his nephew, William de Lancaster I,
<then how was Gospatric Fitz Orm related to him? The answer is I don't
<know for certain, but there was definitely a kinship between the two
<men. The reason we can be certain of this is that when William de
<Lancaster I granted Gospatric Fitz Orm the manors of Workington and
<Lamplugh, he stated in his charter that the manors being granted were
<"jus suum hereditatem suam" which I translate to mean that the manors
<were "his [Gospatric's] right of his inheritance." If correct, one can
<suppose that Gospatric Fitz Orm was the heir male to Ketel Fitz Eldred,
<whereas William de Lancaster I was the heir general. By law of
<succession, Ketel Fitz Eldred's lands went to his sister's son, William
<de Lancaster I, but Gospatric Fitz Orm evidently had some claim as the
<nearest male heir.
<snip>

With all respect to DR, who has been making serious, sustained and
instructive efforts to reason out the ancestry of Gospatric FitzOrm, I have to say that
I am quite unable to follow his above quoted reasoning.
The primary fact he states is that William de Lancaster conveyed the manors
of Workington and Lamplugh to Gospatric *in exchange for* [my emphasis] the
manor of Middleton, stating that the manors conveyed were "jus suum hereditatem
suam".
DR interprets the latin to mean that the manors conveyed were Gospatric's
right of inheritance, but in my view that is an impossible interpretation, for
three reasons:-
(1) If the manors were already Gospatric's, then there could be no reason for
William to convey them to him;
(2) If they were Gospatric's, there could be no reason for him to give
William anything in exchange for them:
(3) "suus" and "suam" , as a matter of latin, should be taken to refer to
William as the grantor.
Therefore I think (although I have not seen the charter) that it gives no
ground for supposing that Gospatric was the heir male of Ketel FitzEldred, or for
indeed any relation of his. I do appreciate that Gospatric's father was known
as Orm FitzKetel, but where is the evidence that Orm's father was Ketel
FitzEldred, rather than another person named Ketel? If Orm's father was indeed
Ketel FitzEldred, then either Orm or Gospatric (if Orm had predeceased his father)
would have been his heir, and William, as the son of Ketel's sister, would
have inherited nothing.
For these reasons I would conclude that the charter in question itself rebuts
the contention which DR has sought to base on it.
I wish that Peter Stewart was still active on the group, so that we would
have the benefit of his view on the matter: but perhaps John Ravilious will
oblige us with his opinion?
MM

John Brandon

Re: Re:The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 des 2005 15:49:10

I wish that Peter Stewart was still active on the group, ...

Heaven forbid ... I have been enjoying it *so* much more without his
fussy, stuffy snobberies polluting the threads...

butlergrt

Re: Re: Gundreda, dau of Roger, E. of Warwick Reply

Legg inn av butlergrt » 02 des 2005 16:16:57

Good Morning Will et al,
Will, go to the British History Archives and read it for yourself which I
had provided on this site and in a private e-mail to yourself. Look up
the charter to the Abbey and then you can have it first hand that way you
can more fully appreciate it and won't have any questions on
interpretation. Of course I expect a full report tomorrow morning, double
spaced, references cited....... hahaha, just kidding , a little Friday
morning Emmett humor.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Chris Phillips

Re: Re: Gundreda, dau of Roger, E. of Warwick Reply

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 02 des 2005 16:22:28

Emmett L. Butler wrote:
Will, go to the British History Archives and read it for yourself which I
had provided on this site and in a private e-mail to yourself. Look up
the charter to the Abbey and then you can have it first hand that way you
can more fully appreciate it and won't have any questions on
interpretation.

I very much doubt that Gundred's parentage is stated in the charter. The
current consensus seems to be that she was the widow of Roger, earl of
Warwick, not his daughter, though this depends on an inference from a
charter of William de Lancaster, not on a direct statement. But some have
argued in the past that Gundred was earl Roger's daughter (for example the
Victoria County History account you quoted). There was some discussion of
this a month or two ago.

Chris Phillips

Douglas Richardson

Re: Re:The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 02 des 2005 18:13:00

Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:

With all respect to DR, who has been making serious, sustained and
instructive efforts to reason out the ancestry of Gospatric FitzOrm, I have to say that
I am quite unable to follow his above quoted reasoning.

Therefore I think (although I have not seen the charter) that it gives no
ground for supposing that Gospatric was the heir male of Ketel FitzEldred, or for
indeed any relation of his. I do appreciate that Gospatric's father was known
as Orm FitzKetel, but where is the evidence that Orm's father was Ketel
FitzEldred, rather than another person named Ketel? If Orm's father was indeed
Ketel FitzEldred, then either Orm or Gospatric (if Orm had predeceased his father)
would have been his heir, and William, as the son of Ketel's sister, would
have inherited nothing.

MM

Dear Michael ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

Orm Fitz Ketel's known father-in-law, Earl Gospatric, was active in the
1060's and early 1070's. As such, we should be looking for someone
named Ketel also active in the 1060's and 1070's to be the father of
Orm Fitz Ketel.

I can not accept that Ketel Fitz Eldred, active in the 1120's, was
Orm's father. This is simple chronology.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Bob Turcott

Re: Francoise De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 02 des 2005 20:26:36

Jean,
a couple of questions and observations:

The dumont-Guerret family has a coat of arms and it is shown on my website
below, The arms
show 2 lions or tigers left to right of the shield. Is it possible that The
lions or Tigers shown
come from Le fief du Mesnil-Hébert : Issu d’une famille du Mesnil? The
possible connection to
Jeanne du Mesnil wife of Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Montmirel et de La
Conseillere?

what do Hautmesnil & Basmesnil signify?


my website with Gueret dit Dumont arms:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... royal.html


website with Le fief du Mesnil-Hébert arms:

http://www.port-mort.com/fiefs.htm

Anyone else that can help are welcomed to comment.






From: magnusrufus@yahoo.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Francoise De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway
Date: 12 Nov 2005 11:03:20 -0800
The same chart with minor typo corrections :

2. Raoul Bouchard, sgr de Meherenc (c. 1330)
m. possibly Ne... de Xerainville

2.1 Henri Bouchard, sgr de Meherenc
m. Thomase de Thaon

2.1.1 Jean Bouchard, sgr de Meherenc

2.1.1.1 Gilette Bouchard, dame de Meherenc
m. Jean de Bosc, sgr des Conches

2.1.1.1.1 Guillaume et Jacques du Bosc, cosgrs de Meherenc

2.2 Richard Bouchard de Meherenc, sgr de Bleville

2.3 Renouf Bouchard de Meherenc, sgr des Londes (fief de Tourailles a
Trevieres)
m. Henrye de Thaon (sister of Thomase)

2.3.1 Richard Bouchard de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. 1391, Marguerite Agues de Suhard

2.3.1.1 Guillaume I de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. 1445 Marguerite de La Haye de Bouillon

2.3.1.1.1 Guillaume II de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. Isabeau de Malherbe, dame de Breuil et de La Vaquerie

2.3.1.1.1.1 Denis de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. 1506, Anne de Grosparmy

2.3.1.1.1.1.1 Francois de Meherenc, sgr des Londes et d Asnelles
m. 1520, Jeanne de Maugny (or Le Maugny), with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2 Guillaume III de Meherenc, sgr de L Aubel
m. 1520, Francoise de Maugny (sister of Jeanne)

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1 Guillaume IV de Meherenc, sgr de La Conseillere
m. 1545, Marguerite de Sausdret /Sandret

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1 Adrien de Meherenc, sgr de La Conseillere et de
Montmirel
m. (1) 1579 Jeanne du Pont
m. (2) 1590, Elisabeth de Clinchamps, no posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Montmirel et de La
Conseillere
m. 1609, Jeanne du Mesnil

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 Pierre de Meherenc, sgr de M. et de La C.
m. 1640, Anne Le Sens, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2 FRANCOISE DE MEHERENC DE MONTMIREL
m. 1634, Jean Gueret/Guerey

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2.1 Rene Gueret
m. Madeleine Vigoureux

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2.1.1 Jacques Gueret dit Dumont
m. 1694, Anne Tardif, with posterity in NEW FRANCE

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.2 Thomas de Meherenc, sgr de Hautmesnil

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.2 Jean de Meherenc, seigneur de LAubel
m. Marie de Melun, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.3 Thomas de Meherenc, sgr de Basmesnil
m. Noelle Le Blond, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.3 Jacques de Meherenc, sgr du Quesnay
m. 1527,m Marie Gousseaume, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.4 Jean de Meherenc
m. Marie de Vouilly, with posterity

2.3.1.1.2 Philippe de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1487, Jeanne Besnard

2.3.1.1.2.1 Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1508, Catherine de Cayron

2.3.1.1.2.1.1 Nicolas de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1538, Marguerite d Escageul de Sully

2.3.1.1.2.1.1.1 Jean-Francois de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1590, Barbe de Marguerie, with posterity, head of the Bretagne
branch later nown as marquis de Meherenc de Saint-Pierre, still
existing

2.3.1.1.2.1.2 Louis de Meherenc, sgr de Familly
m. 1548, Marguerite de Bur de Saint-Christophe, with posterity (de
Meherenc de Saint-Christophe)



_________________________________________________________________
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Terry

Re: Knights of Edward I by Moor

Legg inn av Terry » 02 des 2005 20:39:17

In the Knight of Edward I Sir Thomas Warblington is listed having Lozengy
or. and az.
In Burkes Warbleton is listed having the same arms, and one with the colors
reversed.
I hope this helps
Terry L. Mair
Mair's Photography
158 South 580 East
Midway, Utah 84049
435-654-3607
http://www.mairsphotography.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "charlotte smith" <charcsmith@verizon.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 9:11 AM
Subject: Knights of Edward I by Moor


does anyone have the book by Moor, Knights of Edward I. I would like to
have a copy of the arms of Warbleton to check out aganst an arms I have
that may be the same. I was told that the Warbleton arms are in that book.
Thanks for any help.


charlotte c smith



Gjest

Re: Mrs Gifford is warned to depart the Town

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 des 2005 01:05:03

John Brandon wrote:
"Mrs. Gifford is warned to depart the Town or give Security to Save the
Town harmless within foreteen dayes. Octobr 2d [1701]."

I can't speak to Mrs. Gifford, but given the occasional ambiguity
between written 'S' and 'L', are you sure this is "Security to Save the
Town" and not "Security to Leave the Town", which would seem to be more
in character with a Warning Out.
-----
Actually, the phrase "save harmless" is a legalism requiring Mrs. Gifford to indemnify the town for some unspecified costs that might in the future be incurred because of her or her actions--here presumably future costs of her support. She essentially was being asked to post bond or leave town.

Dave Morehouse
Hopkins, MN

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Re:The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 03 des 2005 01:38:01

Ah - but I think Peter's family motto must be "To thine own self be true",
and he always was, and I too, miss his ascerbic input to this list.
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: John Brandon
Date: 12/03/05 01:23:49
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Re:The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094

I wish that Peter Stewart was still active on the group, ...

Heaven forbid ... I have been enjoying it *so* much more without his
fussy, stuffy snobberies polluting the threads...

Gjest

Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living 1094

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 des 2005 01:47:02

In a message dated 12/2/05 9:15:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

<< I can not accept that Ketel Fitz Eldred, active in the 1120's, was
Orm's father. This is simple chronology. >>

But he wasn't "active in the 1120s"
That is simply when his name appears on a charter.
He might have been 30 or 80, we don't know.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Hugh de Morville

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 des 2005 02:26:01

In a message dated 12/2/05 10:38:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, FDP527@aol.com
writes:

<< In addition to Noutgeld a
farm of ?8 18s. 2d. for the 16 carucates in Kentdale, and ?5 for the
fishery of Kentdale, were similarly paid until Michaelmas, 1176, by the
lord of Kentdale to Hugh de MOREVILL. >>

I'm not sure I'm willing to accept that a person who was the "life-long
friend" of David King of Scotland, was himself still living in 1176. I wonder what
documentation shows that, even if *some* Hugh de Moreville were getting this,
that it was the *same* Hugh, formerly Constable of Scotland. Rather perhaps
it was his son also Hugh

In fact it appears we have at least one too many Hugh's. Pat assures me that
the Hugh that Helawise de Stuteville married was neither of these Hugh's but
yet another, although it would surely be interesting that she wouldn't want to
marry her dead husband's feif-lord ....

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Gundreda, dau of Roger, E. of Warwick

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 des 2005 02:39:01

In a message dated 12/2/05 11:38:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:

<< And yes, Will, if you are reading this it does not say whether Grundreda
was his daughter or wife, it states HIS marriage to ... Him, being William
de Lancaster I. >>

But are you quite sure this is William I and not William II ?
If you are quite sure, then how do you come by this knowledge?
Will Johnson

butlergrt

Re: Re: Gundreda, dau of Roger, E. of Warwick

Legg inn av butlergrt » 03 des 2005 04:28:13

Good Evening again Will et al,
Yes, you are quite right in your questioning and as has been stated, we
know that Gundreda dau of Roger, Earl of Warick married (A) William de
Lancaster, which one? valid question, an unfortunate presumption on my
part!!!! I shall have myself immediately removed to the dungeon and be
tortured for a while.

The problem that it presents, for the longest time in chronologies was
that: William I married Gundred(Gundreda), dau of William, E. of Warrenne
and William II married Helewise(Hawise) dau of Stuteville. Now we have
records, Primary that a Gundred(Gundreda) dau of Roger, E. of Warwick
married a William de Lancaster and that Helewise de Stuteville married a.
William de Lancaster and 2nd Hugh de Morville as per primary records
between 1189-94. That still does not take into account Gundred(Gundreda)
that also married a William de Lancaster who was the daughter of William
Earl of Warrene.
Best,
Emmett L. Butler

Gjest

Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living Helewise)

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 des 2005 05:46:02

In a message dated 12/2/05 7:53:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:

<< Eldred
Ketel
William I
William II
son:
Gilbert
son:
Warin*
dau.
Helewise mar. Gilbert fitzReinifrid son of Roger

*Warin also had a son Henry known as Henry fitzWarin that originally held
his fathers lands including Liverpool, but King John took Liverpool August
1207 and made it a Borough 5 days later and gave Henry fitzWarin the manor
of English tea instead. Why Warin and Hnery did not succed in succession
yet alone Gilbert is not known but history records it went to his daughter
Helwise and Gilbert fitzReinfrid and then his son William the last of this
line of Lancasters as he had only 2 daughters and then Lancaster became a
royal line. >>

Because Gilbert was not his son but his brother.
We have already seen how Willliam I de Lancaster had a brother Jordan and a
brother Gilbert
Could "Warin" be the same name as "Jordan" ?
At any rate, I questioned that William II also had sons Gilbert and Jordan,
pointing out that we do not know exactly when William I died "in or after 1170"
is pretty vauge. With a document dated 1170-80 there is plenty of room for
the older William to still be living and these "sons" be his, not his son's
sons.

At any rate, allow Gilbert to be younger son of William I and your problem
above vanishes. He didn't inherit because he wasn't in the direct line.
Instead Hawise the daughter of William II inherited her father's lands.

Will

Gjest

Re: Francoise De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 des 2005 08:02:11

Ménil, forme anc. Mesnil... maison rurale, habitation avec portion de
terre, désignait l'habitant du ménil, terme très fréquent, dans la
partie septentrionale de la France, comme nom de localité. (Réf:
Marie-Thérèse Morlet - Dictionnaire étymologique des noms de famille
- Perrin - 1991, p.684. Mesnil means farmhouse, including or not, the
land around. (maison de ferme in modern French).

Janko Pavsic
Longueuil

"Bob Turcott" a écrit :

Jean,
a couple of questions and observations:

The dumont-Guerret family has a coat of arms and it is shown on my website
below, The arms
show 2 lions or tigers left to right of the shield. Is it possible that The
lions or Tigers shown
come from Le fief du Mesnil-Hébert : Issu d'une famille du Mesnil? The
possible connection to
Jeanne du Mesnil wife of Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Montmirel et de La
Conseillere?

what do Hautmesnil & Basmesnil signify?


my website with Gueret dit Dumont arms:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... royal.html


website with Le fief du Mesnil-Hébert arms:

http://www.port-mort.com/fiefs.htm

Anyone else that can help are welcomed to comment.






From: magnusrufus@yahoo.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Francoise De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway
Date: 12 Nov 2005 11:03:20 -0800
The same chart with minor typo corrections :

2. Raoul Bouchard, sgr de Meherenc (c. 1330)
m. possibly Ne... de Xerainville

2.1 Henri Bouchard, sgr de Meherenc
m. Thomase de Thaon

2.1.1 Jean Bouchard, sgr de Meherenc

2.1.1.1 Gilette Bouchard, dame de Meherenc
m. Jean de Bosc, sgr des Conches

2.1.1.1.1 Guillaume et Jacques du Bosc, cosgrs de Meherenc

2.2 Richard Bouchard de Meherenc, sgr de Bleville

2.3 Renouf Bouchard de Meherenc, sgr des Londes (fief de Tourailles a
Trevieres)
m. Henrye de Thaon (sister of Thomase)

2.3.1 Richard Bouchard de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. 1391, Marguerite Agues de Suhard

2.3.1.1 Guillaume I de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. 1445 Marguerite de La Haye de Bouillon

2.3.1.1.1 Guillaume II de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. Isabeau de Malherbe, dame de Breuil et de La Vaquerie

2.3.1.1.1.1 Denis de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. 1506, Anne de Grosparmy

2.3.1.1.1.1.1 Francois de Meherenc, sgr des Londes et d Asnelles
m. 1520, Jeanne de Maugny (or Le Maugny), with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2 Guillaume III de Meherenc, sgr de L Aubel
m. 1520, Francoise de Maugny (sister of Jeanne)

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1 Guillaume IV de Meherenc, sgr de La Conseillere
m. 1545, Marguerite de Sausdret /Sandret

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1 Adrien de Meherenc, sgr de La Conseillere et de
Montmirel
m. (1) 1579 Jeanne du Pont
m. (2) 1590, Elisabeth de Clinchamps, no posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Montmirel et de La
Conseillere
m. 1609, Jeanne du Mesnil

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 Pierre de Meherenc, sgr de M. et de La C.
m. 1640, Anne Le Sens, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2 FRANCOISE DE MEHERENC DE MONTMIREL
m. 1634, Jean Gueret/Guerey

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2.1 Rene Gueret
m. Madeleine Vigoureux

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2.1.1 Jacques Gueret dit Dumont
m. 1694, Anne Tardif, with posterity in NEW FRANCE

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.2 Thomas de Meherenc, sgr de Hautmesnil

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.2 Jean de Meherenc, seigneur de LAubel
m. Marie de Melun, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.3 Thomas de Meherenc, sgr de Basmesnil
m. Noelle Le Blond, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.3 Jacques de Meherenc, sgr du Quesnay
m. 1527,m Marie Gousseaume, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.4 Jean de Meherenc
m. Marie de Vouilly, with posterity

2.3.1.1.2 Philippe de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1487, Jeanne Besnard

2.3.1.1.2.1 Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1508, Catherine de Cayron

2.3.1.1.2.1.1 Nicolas de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1538, Marguerite d Escageul de Sully

2.3.1.1.2.1.1.1 Jean-Francois de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1590, Barbe de Marguerie, with posterity, head of the Bretagne
branch later nown as marquis de Meherenc de Saint-Pierre, still
existing

2.3.1.1.2.1.2 Louis de Meherenc, sgr de Familly
m. 1548, Marguerite de Bur de Saint-Christophe, with posterity (de
Meherenc de Saint-Christophe)



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Chris Phillips

Re: Re: Gundreda, dau of Roger, E. of Warwick

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 03 des 2005 09:52:04

Emmett L. Butler wrote:
Now we have
records, Primary that a Gundred(Gundreda) dau of Roger, E. of Warwick
married a William de Lancaster and that Helewise de Stuteville married a.
William de Lancaster and 2nd Hugh de Morville as per primary records
between 1189-94.

No - you have a _secondary_ record (the Victoria County History) that
describes Gundred as the daughter of Roger, earl of Warwick. The consensus
is that this is incorrect, and that Gundred was Roger's widow. But as far as
I know there's no explicit statement in a primary record either way.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: William de Lancaster I's uncle, Ketel Fitz Eldred

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 des 2005 22:16:01

In a message dated 12/3/2005 1:53:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

"Fortunately, the attention of my learned and distinguished friend, Mr.
G. Andrews Moriarty, Ll.B., F.S.A., was attracted to this problem of
William de Lancaster and his antecedents in 12th-century Westmoreland
..... Mr. Moriarty's solution ... is that William de Lancaster's father,
Gilbert, was a Norman knight, as evidenced by the French Christian
names given to all his recorded children; whilst William's mother,
Godith, was clearly the sister of Ketel son of Eldred and thus of
native English stock (it will be recalled that Ketel was called William
de Lancaster's avunculus, a term which strictly speaking means
'maternal uncle'). It is even possible, as Mr. Moriarty surmises, that
Ketel's wife, Christian or Christina, may have been a Taillebois by
birth; for, according to Peter of Blois, Ivo himself 'had an only
daughter, nobly espoused' (see the Duchess of Cleveland's Battle Abbey
Roll, III, 345), and certainly William de Lancaster's granddaughter,
Helewise, along with her husband Gilbert fitz Renfrid, later confirmed
some of Ivo's grants to the abbey of St. Mary at York." [Reference:
George Washington, "The parentage of William de Lancaster, lord of
Kendal," in Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiq. & Arch.
Soc. n.s. 62) (1962): 95-97].

Given the above discussion, I find the evidence compelling that Ketel
Fitz Eldred was the uncle of William de Lancaster I. It is Mr.
Moriarty's position (and also that of Dr. Katherine Keats-Rohan), that
Ketel Fitz Eldred was the maternal uncle of William de Lancaster I.
That likewise makes sense to me.




Dear Doug,

These are THEORIES not proofs. Moriarty theorized one answer and Wilson
another. The term 'avunculus' is not definitive in light of the other
documentation and the idea that Godith was a sister of Chetell is speculation by
Moriarty to make this one piece of evidence fit with the claim of Helewise in the
1212 Curia Regis roll mentioned earlier.

Secondly Moriarty is wrong about Christina and her ancestry as was shown
yesterday in a post by J.C.B. Sharp. The land held by Ivo Taillebois reverted
to the crown as he left no legitimate heirs. The land came to Chetell from
Henry I for other reasons. No daughters of Ivo Taillebois brought land by
marriage to Chetell.

Beatrix Taillebois must have been illegitimate which is what Clay postulated
long ago. She probably wasn't old enough to have had a prior marriage before
her marriage to Ribald of Middleham. This can be shown by the documentation
concerning their son Ralph Taillebois.

One last note the Register of St. Bee's is not just a book. Wilson edited
the Register of the Abbey and compiled all the existent charters which make this
a primary source not a secondary source. Wilson's comments were made from
his knowledge in 1915 and generally are excellent.

MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re:Agnes of Mar was The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 des 2005 01:26:02

Dear James,

This is what CP states about Morgrund:

EARLDOM OF MAR [SCT]
MORGUND or MORGRUND MAC GYLOCHER,[e] EARL OF MAR [SCT]. As Morgund Comes he
witnessed a charter of David I and his son Henry to Dunfermline before 1152,
and a confirmation charter to Dunfermline by Malcolm IV between 1154 and 1158.
As Moregrundus comes de Mar he granted the church of Tarland to the priory
of St. Andrews between 1165 and 1177. He and his wife Agnes made several
grants to St. Andrews, and directed they should be buried there, wherever in
Scotland they might die. She, as Agnes, comitissa de Mar, made a grant thereto of
land in Inverinche. His legitimacy was questioned long after his death, but
appears to have been upheld. He died before 30 March 1183. [CP 8:398-9]

All this states is that he was dead before 30 March 1183. All his charters
were before 1177 as it states so it is entirely possible that he died before
Countess Ada in 1178. All the charters prior to this one were made jointly.
This one and there was one other were confirmations in Agnes' widowhood.

MichaelAnne

Douglas Richardson

Re: William de Lancaster I's uncle, Ketel Fitz Eldred

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 des 2005 01:39:44

Dear Doug,

These are THEORIES not proofs. Moriarty theorized one answer and Wilson
another. The term 'avunculus' is not definitive in light of the other
documentation and the idea that Godith was a sister of Chetell is speculation by
Moriarty to make this one piece of evidence fit with the claim of Helewise in the
1212 Curia Regis roll mentioned earlier.

Dear MichaelAnne ~

The learned Mr. Moriarty, a brilliant genealogist if ever there was
one, based his observations on the known chronology, the ononastics,
and available charter evidence. Dr. Keats-Rohan and I have both been
persuaded by the logic and reasoning of Mr. Moriarty's conclusions. In
sharp contrast, your alternative view upends the chronology, overlooks
the onomastics, twists the Latin, and ignores the charter evidence.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: William de Lancaster I's uncle, Ketel Fitz Eldred

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 04 des 2005 02:53:56

Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Doug,

These are THEORIES not proofs. Moriarty theorized one answer and Wilson
another. The term 'avunculus' is not definitive in light of the other
documentation and the idea that Godith was a sister of Chetell is speculation by
Moriarty to make this one piece of evidence fit with the claim of Helewise in the
1212 Curia Regis roll mentioned earlier.


Dear MichaelAnne ~

The learned Mr. Moriarty, a brilliant genealogist if ever there was

A good genealogist, but one who also (like the rest of the field) made
some mistakes that in retrospect seem obvious, and who, in at least one
case, apparently bought into a fraud. That is why genealogy is best
based on evidence, not appeal to authority.

one, based his observations on the known chronology, the ononastics,
and available charter evidence.

Given that your knowledge of what he wrote seems to be based on what Mr.
Washington said of his conclusions, one wonders the basis for this
description.

Dr. Keats-Rohan and I have both been
persuaded by the logic and reasoning of Mr. Moriarty's conclusions.

Dr. Keats-Rohan cites Washington, not Moriarty. Unless she has told you
privately that she based her conclusions on Moriarty rather than the
sources she cited, then you are speaking of that which you do not know.
(Falsely attributing one's positions to experts is a common debating
trick, but not very convincing when it is so easily checked.)

In
sharp contrast, your alternative view upends the chronology, overlooks
the onomastics, twists the Latin, and ignores the charter evidence.

That as opposed to your approach - choose a chronological framework that
fits your solution and then claim that your solution is supported by the
chronology. As to the onomastics, you might as well argue that everyone
named William is related as arguing that in the north any given
Gospatric must have been grandson of the earl. Then there is 'twisting
the Latin', from the person who took me to task just the other day for
suggesting that a Latin word (the same Latin word, mind you) had a
proper meaning. Your domicile is rather transparent for you to be
lofting such projectiles at MichaelAnne.

taf

Gjest

Re: The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketelteaser Reply

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 des 2005 04:39:45

In a message dated 12/3/2005 9:08:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

butlergrt wrote:
Good Evening Douglas et al,
1. In reference to a duel between Gospatric fitzOrm and His cousin William
where William was fined 30 marks,(1076?) that is an English translation,
it would be piperoll 22 Henry II Westmoreland for the original.



Dear Emmett,

I also would like to see the full translation of the text you are using. I
pulled the Pipe Roll for 22 Henry II [ The Publications of the Pipe Roll
Society, Vol. XXV, 1904] and on Page 121 there is the following entry which I
assume to be the original of what you are speaking of:

Willelmus filius Willelmi debet xxx m. ut habeat duellum versus Gospatricium
filium Orm.

There is no relationship specified between these men so I don't see how
there could be in an English translation.

Thanks.

MichaelAnne

Gjest

Re: Agnes of Mar was The parentage of Orm Fitz Ketel (living

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 des 2005 04:58:43

Dear Michael Anne and Will,
Thank You for the clarification
concerning the date of Earl Morgrund of Mar`s death as about 1177 /78. How many
years did Agnes confirm her husband`s various grants and did the succeeding
Earl Gilchrist object to any of them ?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Bob Turcott

Re: Francoise De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 04 des 2005 08:02:02

Janko, thank you!

I am in reciept of photos of the montmirel manor and have examined the
Archaeology of
the worn coat of arms and now know for sure that it is quite possible we may
have a double "impalement" of 2 lions that are clearly holding the shield
of meherenc, indications suggest a possible connection to a fief of mesnil
that also bore a lion on his shield. I dont think the lions are
thier for no reason, I think we have a bonfide impalement here because
Jeanne du Mesnil ancestors are the suspected bearers of the lion arms wife
of Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Montmirel et de La Conseillere. further study is
underway to further examine this occurance.
photos will be available when my new webpage for Francoise de meherenc is
created, within 12 weeks, it will be worth the wait!!!!!!!


does anyone know what looks like a shooting star a foot above the coat of
arms but not attached would mean or signify? its amystery!!! also a carved
boat is on one of the stones on the left hand side of the door of the manor
of montmirel, perhaps a signification od a family members voyage to
canada!!!!




From: jankopavsic@hotmail.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Francoise De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway
Date: 2 Dec 2005 23:02:11 -0800
Ménil, forme anc. Mesnil... maison rurale, habitation avec portion de
terre, désignait l'habitant du ménil, terme très fréquent, dans la
partie septentrionale de la France, comme nom de localité. (Réf:
Marie-Thérèse Morlet - Dictionnaire étymologique des noms de famille
- Perrin - 1991, p.684. Mesnil means farmhouse, including or not, the
land around. (maison de ferme in modern French).

Janko Pavsic
Longueuil

"Bob Turcott" a écrit :

Jean,
a couple of questions and observations:

The dumont-Guerret family has a coat of arms and it is shown on my
website
below, The arms
show 2 lions or tigers left to right of the shield. Is it possible that
The
lions or Tigers shown
come from Le fief du Mesnil-Hébert : Issu d'une famille du Mesnil? The
possible connection to
Jeanne du Mesnil wife of Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Montmirel et de La
Conseillere?

what do Hautmesnil & Basmesnil signify?


my website with Gueret dit Dumont arms:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... royal.html


website with Le fief du Mesnil-Hébert arms:

http://www.port-mort.com/fiefs.htm

Anyone else that can help are welcomed to comment.






From: magnusrufus@yahoo.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Francoise De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway
Date: 12 Nov 2005 11:03:20 -0800
The same chart with minor typo corrections :

2. Raoul Bouchard, sgr de Meherenc (c. 1330)
m. possibly Ne... de Xerainville

2.1 Henri Bouchard, sgr de Meherenc
m. Thomase de Thaon

2.1.1 Jean Bouchard, sgr de Meherenc

2.1.1.1 Gilette Bouchard, dame de Meherenc
m. Jean de Bosc, sgr des Conches

2.1.1.1.1 Guillaume et Jacques du Bosc, cosgrs de Meherenc

2.2 Richard Bouchard de Meherenc, sgr de Bleville

2.3 Renouf Bouchard de Meherenc, sgr des Londes (fief de Tourailles a
Trevieres)
m. Henrye de Thaon (sister of Thomase)

2.3.1 Richard Bouchard de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. 1391, Marguerite Agues de Suhard

2.3.1.1 Guillaume I de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. 1445 Marguerite de La Haye de Bouillon

2.3.1.1.1 Guillaume II de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. Isabeau de Malherbe, dame de Breuil et de La Vaquerie

2.3.1.1.1.1 Denis de Meherenc, sgr des Londes
m. 1506, Anne de Grosparmy

2.3.1.1.1.1.1 Francois de Meherenc, sgr des Londes et d Asnelles
m. 1520, Jeanne de Maugny (or Le Maugny), with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2 Guillaume III de Meherenc, sgr de L Aubel
m. 1520, Francoise de Maugny (sister of Jeanne)

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1 Guillaume IV de Meherenc, sgr de La Conseillere
m. 1545, Marguerite de Sausdret /Sandret

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1 Adrien de Meherenc, sgr de La Conseillere et de
Montmirel
m. (1) 1579 Jeanne du Pont
m. (2) 1590, Elisabeth de Clinchamps, no posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Montmirel et de La
Conseillere
m. 1609, Jeanne du Mesnil

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 Pierre de Meherenc, sgr de M. et de La C.
m. 1640, Anne Le Sens, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2 FRANCOISE DE MEHERENC DE MONTMIREL
m. 1634, Jean Gueret/Guerey

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2.1 Rene Gueret
m. Madeleine Vigoureux

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.2.1.1 Jacques Gueret dit Dumont
m. 1694, Anne Tardif, with posterity in NEW FRANCE

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.2 Thomas de Meherenc, sgr de Hautmesnil

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.2 Jean de Meherenc, seigneur de LAubel
m. Marie de Melun, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.2.3 Thomas de Meherenc, sgr de Basmesnil
m. Noelle Le Blond, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.3 Jacques de Meherenc, sgr du Quesnay
m. 1527,m Marie Gousseaume, with posterity

2.3.1.1.1.1.4 Jean de Meherenc
m. Marie de Vouilly, with posterity

2.3.1.1.2 Philippe de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1487, Jeanne Besnard

2.3.1.1.2.1 Jean de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1508, Catherine de Cayron

2.3.1.1.2.1.1 Nicolas de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1538, Marguerite d Escageul de Sully

2.3.1.1.2.1.1.1 Jean-Francois de Meherenc, sgr de Flottemanville
m. 1590, Barbe de Marguerie, with posterity, head of the Bretagne
branch later nown as marquis de Meherenc de Saint-Pierre, still
existing

2.3.1.1.2.1.2 Louis de Meherenc, sgr de Familly
m. 1548, Marguerite de Bur de Saint-Christophe, with posterity (de
Meherenc de Saint-Christophe)



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Douglas Richardson

Re: William de Lancaster I's uncle, Ketel Fitz Eldred

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 04 des 2005 09:09:38

Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

That as opposed to your approach - choose a chronological framework that
fits your solution and then claim that your solution is supported by the
chronology. As to the onomastics, you might as well argue that everyone
named William is related as arguing that in the north any given
Gospatric must have been grandson of the earl. Then there is 'twisting
the Latin', from the person who took me to task just the other day for
suggesting that a Latin word (the same Latin word, mind you) had a
proper meaning. Your domicile is rather transparent for you to be
lofting such projectiles at MichaelAnne.

taf

Dear Todd ~

The purpose of this discussion has been to establish that Ketel Fitz
Eldred, living in 1120's, was the uncle ("avunculus") of William de
Lancaster I. Mr. Washington and Mr. Moriarty have ably proven this
point by citing original contemporary evidence, applicable onomastics,
and sound chronology.

If you wish to disagree with Mr. Washington and Mr. Moriarty, please
post your evidence and cite your sources.

DR

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