Dear taf ~
Jim Weber has correctly identified Alice, wife of John, Constable of
Chester (died 1190), as the daughter of Roger Fitz Richard (died c.
1177), of Warkworth, Northumberland, by Alice de Vere (or de Essex),
widow of Robert de Essex, and daughter of Aubrey de Vere. To verify
this, I encourage you read Chris Phillips' helpful post on this matter
from the archives which I have copied further below. Chris has
provided all of his sources.
In any event, Roger Fitz Richard, of Warkworth, can not have been the
brother of John, Constable of Chester, as you have stated. Roger Fitz
Richard was granted Warkworth, Northumberland by King Henry II in 1157,
whereas John, Constable of Chester, didn't come of age until 1166.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
COPY OF CHRIS PHILLIPS' POST
Kevan L. Barton wrote:
John de Lacy succeeded to the baronies of Halton and Pontefract, with the
Constableship of Chester he was also lord of Flamborough. He founded the
monastery of Hanlow, and was buried there in 1211. He married Alice de
Vere, sister of William de Mandeville. What is the Vere/Mandeville
connection and which Mandeville are we talking about?
The Complete Peerage, in a pedigree (vol.7, p.677) just shows this
couple
"John, Constable of Chester, d.1190" (and says that it was John's son
Roger
who took the name of Lacy).
I have some more notes about Alice's identity, from various authors
early
this century (when it seems to have been a matter of controversy).
Possibly
there has been some more recent work that I'm not aware of!
Most of the information comes from an article by G.H.White [Geneal.
Mag. vii
469 (1935-37)]. From the evidence of the Rotulus de Dominabus
(pp.29,76) and
the Pipe Rolls for 10 Richard I (p.118) and 1 John (p.207), John's wife
is
identified as Alice de Vere, the daughter of Alice of Essex. Although
Dugdale mis-identified her, Alice of Essex was the daughter of Aubrey
de
Vere (d.1141; the father of the first Earl of Oxford) and his wife
Alice
(the daughter of Gilbert FitzRichard of Clare and Tonbridge). Note that
John's wife Alice is a rare example of a woman using her mother's
maiden
name as her surname.
According to White, Alice of Essex had three husbands:
(i) William de Sackville, Lord of Braxted, but he was claimed as
husband by
Aubreye, daughter of Geoffrey Tregoz, who alleged a pre-contract;
although
he and Alice fought
the case, their marriage was dissolved [citing Round, Arch. J. lxiv
225;
Hall, Court Life under the Plantagenets, pp.98-112].
(ii) Robert of Essex.
(iii) Roger Fitz Richard, Lord of Warkworth, a minor Baron, whom she
also
outlived
[citing Round, Essex Arch. Soc. Trans. NS iii 245-47].
Opinions differ as to which of these husbands was the father of Alice
"de
Vere" the wife of John the constable:
Round [Essex Arch. Soc. Trans. NS iii 248] believed that her father was
RogerFitz Richard;
Farrer [Honors and Knights' Fees ii 201-2], followed by Wagner [Geneal.
Mag.
vii 471 (1935-37)],
affiliated her to Robert de Essex.
White supports Round, for two reasons:
(i) In 1185 she held in dower Clavering, which belonged to the Honor of
Rayleigh, and so came from the Honor of Essex. On her death it
escheated to
the Crown, the Honor of Rayleigh having been forfeited by Henry de
Essex in
1163. Subsequently it was granted by the king to Robert FitzRoger (her
son
by Roger Fitz Richard) [citing Essex Arch Soc Trans NS iii 247], which
makes
it unlikely there was issue living of her marriage to Robert of Essex.
(ii) Round [ibid] suggests that the elder Alice continued to style
herself
'de Essex' because Robert de Essex was more important than Roger Fitz
Richard, and because the latter had no surname. Likewise, White
suggests,
the younger Alice may have called herself 'de Vere' because her father
had
no surname and was of little importance compared with the de Veres.
That just leaves the question of why Alice de Vere is called the sister
of
William de Mandeville in your source. I haven't seen this statement
before.
I can only assume the confusion arose because the sister of Alice of
Essex,
Rohese, married Geoffrey de Mandeville and was the mother of William de
Mandeville, the 3rd Earl of Essex. (Perhaps someone assumed that Alice
de
Vere's mother, Alice of Essex, must have been the Countess of Essex who
was
a de Vere by birth?).
I hope that information's not too out of date; I'd be interested to
here if
there's been more progress in the past 60 years, such as more definite
evidence about the identity of Alice's father.
Chris Phillips