To CED, Douglas Richardson & others
Thankyou for your replies. If CP Vol 8, p73, note (i) is
correct in stating Alice was the wife of Thomas de Seymour
and appears afterwards to have married Robert Peverel
(citing IPM), and the chart on page 48 shows that Alice
was married two times: first to Thomas de Seymour, and
second to Robert Peverel, wouldn't this require Edmund
Peverel to have been a son of Robert and an earlier wife?
Also, when would this second marriage of Alice de Lisle
to Robert Peverel have taken place?
What is actually known about the birth dates of both
Edmund Peverel and his sister Joan (who married John
Engaine)? Is there any date for the birth of Robert
Peverel? Are Edmund and Joan known to be full
siblings?
I will try to obtain the books cited through an inter-library
loan. This will take weeks if I can get them at all. As I'm
waiting to receive my copy of Douglas' book, I didn't mind
him telling me that there is more information in it.
As I see it, there is still something wrong here. Either Edmund
was not the son of Robert & his wife Alice (I don't know if the
chronology allows for this), or this Alice (wife of Robert) &
Elizabeth were not sisters.
regards
Lyn Wolf
----- Original Message -----
"CED"
leesmyth@cox.net wrote
Douglas Richardson
royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
Dear Lyn ~
To the Newsgroup:
In a messagge posted on the thread "Re Rohese de Boulogne to William
Leete," DR has added a new heading "C.P. Correction Elizabeth de
Lisle,
wife of Edmund Peverel" In that message :
(1)DR states inter alia "As for the Peverel-de Lisle connection, my
personal research indicates
that Robert Peverel's son, Edmund Peverel (died 1331), married before
1330 Elizabeth de Lisle, daughter of Robert de Lisle and his wife,
Margaret de Beauchamp. Elizabeth (de Lisle) Peverel was living as
late
as 1348."
This information is in 8 CP 73, note (i). Whatever DR's personal
research may be, he adds nothing new except the unsupported statement
about Edmund's dates and that Elizabeth de Lisle was living as late as
1348.
DR adds "Fuller particulars on this couple can be found in my
book,..."
and a long nonspecific (as to what is being cited) list of sources.
(2)DR states inter alia "Elizabeth (de Lisle) Peverel did in fact have
a sister named Alice de Lisle. However, surviving records show
conclusively that she married Thomas Seymour, Knt., not Robert
Peverel.
As such, if the chart in Complete Peerage 8:48 indicates that Alice
de
Lisle married Robert Peverel, it is incorrect."
This is most remarkable! CP has all the information regarding Thomas
Seymour in the first sentence (with citations). In note (i), cited
above, CP states that Alice was the wife of Thomas de Seymour and
appears afterwards to have married Robert Peverel (citing IPM). The
chart on page 48 shows that Alice was married two times: first to
Thomas de Seymour, and second to Robert Peverel.
So, what was DR correcting? He says "if the chart in Complete Peerage
8:48 indicates that Alice de Lisle married Robert Peverel, it is
incorrect." Doesn't he know what the chart shows? Is he offering a
correction to CP without checking CP?
DR created a new heading in the thread which promises a correction to
the Complete Peerage regarding Elizabeth de Lisle. He offers no
correction, only a possible addition (without citation). Then he says,
regarding her sister, if it a chart indicates Alice married Robert
Peverel , it is wrong, without citing authority.
What was the purpose of for posting this message? No usable
information regarding Elizabeth de Lisle was offered. Why name her in
the heading? Could it be that he wanted to take unmerited credit for
a
CP correction or was it an opportunity to advertise his book, contrary
to netiquette?
CED
There is an excellent article on Bishop Walter de Langton in
Nottingham
Medieval Studies, 35 (1991): 70-76. I recommend anyone interested
in
this family read it. The article is quite detailed and well
researched. As I recall, the article shows that Bishop Walter de
Langton was a full brother to Robert Peverel.
As for the Peverel-de Lisle connection, my personal research
indicates
that Robert Peverel's son, Edmund Peverel (died 1331), married
before
1330 Elizabeth de Lisle, daughter of Robert de Lisle and his wife,
Margaret de Beauchamp. Elizabeth (de Lisle) Peverel was living as
late
as 1348. Fuller particulars on this couple can be found in my book,
Magna Carta Ancestry (2005).
The following sources can be consulted for further reference to
Edmund
Peverel and his wife, Elizabeth de Lisle:
Baker, Hist. & Antiqs. of Northampton 1 (1822-30): 619-620 (Lisle
pedigree); Papal Regs.: Letters 2 (1895): 398; VCH Bedford 2 (1908):
224; Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 3 (1909): 96-97; Clay, Extinct &
Dormant Peerages of the Northern Counties (1913): 125-126 (sub De
Lisle); Calendar of Fine Rolls, 1347-1356 (1921): 65; VCH Berkshire
4
(1924): 218; VCH Huntingdon 2 (1932): 322-323; VCH Northampton 3
(1930): 143-144; VCH Cambridge 4 (1953): 136-137, 180-182; VCH
Shropshire 8 (1968): 1-18; Sutherland, Eyre of Northamptonshire 1
(Selden Soc. 97) (1983): 224-229 (abstract of a suit dated
1330-1331 involving a dam on Edmund Peverel's manor at Coldham);
Nottingham Medieval Studies, 35 (1991): 70-76.
Elizabeth (de Lisle) Peverel did in fact have a sister named Alice
de
Lisle. However, surviving records show conclusively that she
married
Thomas Seymour, Knt., not Robert Peverel. As such, if the chart in
Complete Peerage 8:48 indicates that Alice de Lisle married Robert
Peverel, it is incorrect.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the colonial 17th
Century New World immigrants who descend from Edmund Peverel and his
wife, Elizabeth de Lisle:
l. Henry Fleete.
2. Henry & William Randolph.
3. Hawte Wyatt.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website:
http://www.royalancestry.net"Lyn Wolf" wrote:
Dear Dave and others
Thankyou Dave for your reply. Is there any more information
in the text of CP about Alice de Lisle & Robert Peverel?
Does CP have anything under Peverel? I am still confused.
From the archives, Aug 10 2004, 6:31 pm
Walter de Langton, Bishop of Coventry and Litchfield, is stated
to be brother of Robert Peverel and uncle to Edmund Peverel,
who married Elizabeth de Lisle.
Therefore, if Edmund Peverel was the son of Robert and his wife
Alice de Lisle, how could he (Edmund) have married Elizabeth de
Lisle? This would have him marrying his mother's sister.
regards
Lyn Wolf
From: <UTZ@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:27 AM
CP 8:48chart shows Alice de Lisle as wife of Robert Peverel. It
does
not show their children.
Always optimistic--Dave
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