Blount-Ayala
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: marriage of Elizabeth Dannett to Sir John Arundell of La
In a message dated 8/5/05 6:20:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Does this give children for Sir John by either wife? I know he should have
children but I cannot find any. >>
Leo this is the line of descent from John and Elizabeth Danet that is given
is this a2a catalog description.
Will Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------
John Arundell VIII son of John VII; born circa 1500; married Elizabeth Danet
in 1525; died 7th November 1557.
John Arundell IX son of John VIII; born circa 1530; married, by August 1560,
Ann, widow of Charles Lord Stourton and daughter of Thomas Stanley, Earl of
Derby; knighted between 1565 and 1567; in December 1575 purchased from the Earl
of Oxford the Cornish manors of Bejowan, Domellick, Roseworthy, Tregenna,
Tregorrick and Tresithney; in 1587 purchased the manor of Newland Preeze; died
17th November 1590.
John Arundell X son of John IX; born circa 1563; not knighted; in 1587
married Ann Jernegan; died 22 July 1633.
John Arundell XI son of John X; born post 1591; married Elizabeth Brock; died
1642.
John Arundell XII son of John XI; born circa 1623; knighted between 1642 and
1671; married firstly Elizabeth Roper, daughter of Lord Teynham, and then Anna
Arundell of Trerice (by 1679: AR/25/36); died 13 October 1701.
Frances Arundell daughter of John XII and Elizabeth Roper; born 1651; in 1671
married Sir Richard Bellings (died 30 October 1716); died 1714.
Richard Bellings Arundell son of Frances and Richard Bellings (his elder
brother Charles died in 1710); born ?; took Arundell as his surname in accordance
with his grandfather's will (AR/21/42/1); in 1704 married Ann Gage (died 25
August 1718); died February 1725.
Frances Arundell daughter of Richard Bellings Arundell; born circa 1704; in
1733 married Sir John Gifford (died 1736); no children; died 8 February 1752.
Mary Arundell sister of Frances and daughter of Richard Bellings Arundell;
born ? [a minor at time of her father's death]; in 1739 married Henry Arundell,
later the seventh Lord Arundell of Wardour (1717 - 1756); died 1769.
Henry, eighth Lord Arundell of Wardour, son of Mary and Henry Arundell; born
1740; married Mary Conquest; inherited Lanherne estates from his mother and
Wardour estates from his father; died 1808.
Arundell family tree available at Cornwall Record Office
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Does this give children for Sir John by either wife? I know he should have
children but I cannot find any. >>
Leo this is the line of descent from John and Elizabeth Danet that is given
is this a2a catalog description.
Will Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------
John Arundell VIII son of John VII; born circa 1500; married Elizabeth Danet
in 1525; died 7th November 1557.
John Arundell IX son of John VIII; born circa 1530; married, by August 1560,
Ann, widow of Charles Lord Stourton and daughter of Thomas Stanley, Earl of
Derby; knighted between 1565 and 1567; in December 1575 purchased from the Earl
of Oxford the Cornish manors of Bejowan, Domellick, Roseworthy, Tregenna,
Tregorrick and Tresithney; in 1587 purchased the manor of Newland Preeze; died
17th November 1590.
John Arundell X son of John IX; born circa 1563; not knighted; in 1587
married Ann Jernegan; died 22 July 1633.
John Arundell XI son of John X; born post 1591; married Elizabeth Brock; died
1642.
John Arundell XII son of John XI; born circa 1623; knighted between 1642 and
1671; married firstly Elizabeth Roper, daughter of Lord Teynham, and then Anna
Arundell of Trerice (by 1679: AR/25/36); died 13 October 1701.
Frances Arundell daughter of John XII and Elizabeth Roper; born 1651; in 1671
married Sir Richard Bellings (died 30 October 1716); died 1714.
Richard Bellings Arundell son of Frances and Richard Bellings (his elder
brother Charles died in 1710); born ?; took Arundell as his surname in accordance
with his grandfather's will (AR/21/42/1); in 1704 married Ann Gage (died 25
August 1718); died February 1725.
Frances Arundell daughter of Richard Bellings Arundell; born circa 1704; in
1733 married Sir John Gifford (died 1736); no children; died 8 February 1752.
Mary Arundell sister of Frances and daughter of Richard Bellings Arundell;
born ? [a minor at time of her father's death]; in 1739 married Henry Arundell,
later the seventh Lord Arundell of Wardour (1717 - 1756); died 1769.
Henry, eighth Lord Arundell of Wardour, son of Mary and Henry Arundell; born
1740; married Mary Conquest; inherited Lanherne estates from his mother and
Wardour estates from his father; died 1808.
Arundell family tree available at Cornwall Record Office
-
Gjest
Re: marriage of Elizabeth Dannett to Sir John Arundell of La
It turns out Leo that you already *had* a child of this couple.
You just had him in your database disconnected.
John Arundell of Lanherne who married Lady Anne Stanley, widow of Charles,
8th Lord Stourton, Charles was hanged at Salibury 6 Mar 1557 then she married to
John.
Will Johnson
You just had him in your database disconnected.
John Arundell of Lanherne who married Lady Anne Stanley, widow of Charles,
8th Lord Stourton, Charles was hanged at Salibury 6 Mar 1557 then she married to
John.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: marriage of Elizabeth Dannett to Sir John Arundell of La
Tidbits:
1) the A2A collection I've been consulting maintains that Elizabeth Danet,
widow of this John, wrote a will dated 12 Jun 1564 and proved 9 Nov 1564
2) I believe I referred to her father as "Gerald", his name was "Gerard". He
had a wife Mary who the IGI calls "Mary Belknap". The IGI further states
that this Mary died 1568.
3) "English (General): Parish and Probate Records (collection)", online at
http://www.ancestry.com, in British Subscriptions - has a will for Gerard Danet here is
their reference to it "1520 Danet, Gerard, gent., Blacke Frieris, London;
Leicester; Coventry 2 Maynwaryng "
4) I have found reference to John Danet, Knt, SON of Gerard Danet ; and also
to Leonard, son of John, son of Gerard Danet. This last was still living in
1569 and called "of Danet's Hall" at that time.
Will Johnson
1) the A2A collection I've been consulting maintains that Elizabeth Danet,
widow of this John, wrote a will dated 12 Jun 1564 and proved 9 Nov 1564
2) I believe I referred to her father as "Gerald", his name was "Gerard". He
had a wife Mary who the IGI calls "Mary Belknap". The IGI further states
that this Mary died 1568.
3) "English (General): Parish and Probate Records (collection)", online at
http://www.ancestry.com, in British Subscriptions - has a will for Gerard Danet here is
their reference to it "1520 Danet, Gerard, gent., Blacke Frieris, London;
Leicester; Coventry 2 Maynwaryng "
4) I have found reference to John Danet, Knt, SON of Gerard Danet ; and also
to Leonard, son of John, son of Gerard Danet. This last was still living in
1569 and called "of Danet's Hall" at that time.
Will Johnson
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:dd14ti$f6o$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
There's not much room to doubt that Agnes was the daughter of Philippa.
Szabolcs de Vajay placed the birth of Agnes in 1103, at a time when by all
evidence her father was living as the husband of Philippa, whom he deserted
for his mistress a decade or so later. Agnes was first married shortly
before 9 January 1117, that fits neatly enough with her birth in 1103 or a
few years earlier.
We are told by the chronicler of Saint-Maixent that William married Philippa
in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons (his
namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also had five
daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted above] was
married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge habuit quoque
quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti Toarcensi).
In other words, all his known & legitimate children were by Philippa. Ruth
Harvey studied the evidence in a 1993 paper and concluded that William had
only one wife anyway, and that the report by Orderic of a repudiated
countess named "Hildegarde" was just a misnaming of Philippa. Orderic made
plenty of mistakes like this.
Agnes followed Philippa in taking the veil at Fontevrault, where both of
them died. It hardly seems likely that a widowed queen would have returned
to her homeland in order to join nuns who had previously received a rival of
her mother, if she had not been Philippa's daughter in the first place.
So far I have not been able to find evidence of any illegitimate children
attributed to William the Troubadour in an early source, although his
amorous habits are well documented. Richard says that Raoul de Faye was
actually the son of Mauberge by her husband, and so the brother-in-law of
William's son by that means rather than by marriage to his supposed
illegitimate sister. The Poitiers-Valentinois connection was purely
fictional - the mother of Guillaume de Valentinois was still living in 1180,
many decades after Mauberge had died.
Peter Stewart
news:dd14ti$f6o$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Leo van de Pas wrote:
Dear Todd,
A guideline, no cast-iron proof, is Schwennicke ES Volume II Tafel 76.
Here is shown that Guillaume VII-IX le jeune had by Maubergon or
Dangerose both wife of Amaury de Chatellerault the following children
Raimond, Prince of Antiochia
Henri Abbot of Cluny
Agnes/Mathilde wife of (1) Aimery de Thouars (2) Ramiro II King of Aragon
Adelaide wife of Raoul de Fays
Agnes Abbess of Saintes
Guillaume Count of Valentinois ancestor of the family
Poitiers-Valentinois
Tafel 76 gives as sources
Erich Brandenburg Nachkommen Karl's des Grossen
Siegfried Rosch Caroli Magni Progeni
Jacques Saillot Le Sang de Charlemagne
Isenburg/Freytag von Loringhoven, Volume II Tafel 28 (corrected and added
to by Schwennicke) gives Guillaume VII-IX a wrong second wife, mother of
all his children
Guillaume VIII-X, Raimond, Agnes (Agnes/Mathilde by Schwennicke) and four
daughters.
What do you think is the situation? Do you think Henri is somehow a
confused addition to this family?
I don't know one way or the other, but we have had two conflicting answers
here - ES showing the relationship as related, but Richard showing it
otherwise.
As usual, in failing (yet) to definitively answer one question, we have
raised another. Every source I have seen to date (and obviously, I have
not seen ES) has shown Agnes, wife of Ramiro II of Aragon as daughter of
William by Philippa/Matilda of Toulouse.
There's not much room to doubt that Agnes was the daughter of Philippa.
Szabolcs de Vajay placed the birth of Agnes in 1103, at a time when by all
evidence her father was living as the husband of Philippa, whom he deserted
for his mistress a decade or so later. Agnes was first married shortly
before 9 January 1117, that fits neatly enough with her birth in 1103 or a
few years earlier.
We are told by the chronicler of Saint-Maixent that William married Philippa
in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons (his
namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also had five
daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted above] was
married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge habuit quoque
quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti Toarcensi).
In other words, all his known & legitimate children were by Philippa. Ruth
Harvey studied the evidence in a 1993 paper and concluded that William had
only one wife anyway, and that the report by Orderic of a repudiated
countess named "Hildegarde" was just a misnaming of Philippa. Orderic made
plenty of mistakes like this.
Agnes followed Philippa in taking the veil at Fontevrault, where both of
them died. It hardly seems likely that a widowed queen would have returned
to her homeland in order to join nuns who had previously received a rival of
her mother, if she had not been Philippa's daughter in the first place.
So far I have not been able to find evidence of any illegitimate children
attributed to William the Troubadour in an early source, although his
amorous habits are well documented. Richard says that Raoul de Faye was
actually the son of Mauberge by her husband, and so the brother-in-law of
William's son by that means rather than by marriage to his supposed
illegitimate sister. The Poitiers-Valentinois connection was purely
fictional - the mother of Guillaume de Valentinois was still living in 1180,
many decades after Mauberge had died.
Peter Stewart
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
Peter Stewart wrote:
[snip]
That's helpful. I wish Vajay hadn't abstracted it (in his Ramiro &
Agnes article, note 93) as, ". . . habuit quoque quinque filias . . ." -
without the mention of the said marriage or the daughter married to
Thours (what was he thinking - the whole purpose of the footnote was to
document the parentage and chronology of Agnes, and he goes and leaves
out the meat).
So much for ES. Is this Saillot's doing? Brandenburg is blameless - he
lists just three children of William, all by Philippa/Matilda: Wm, Ray,
and Aggie.
taf
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:dd14ti$f6o$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Leo van de Pas wrote:
Dear Todd,
A guideline, no cast-iron proof, is Schwennicke ES Volume II Tafel 76.
Here is shown that Guillaume VII-IX le jeune had by Maubergon or
Dangerose both wife of Amaury de Chatellerault the following children
Raimond, Prince of Antiochia
Henri Abbot of Cluny
Agnes/Mathilde wife of (1) Aimery de Thouars (2) Ramiro II King of Aragon
Adelaide wife of Raoul de Fays
Agnes Abbess of Saintes
Guillaume Count of Valentinois ancestor of the family
Poitiers-Valentinois
Tafel 76 gives as sources
Erich Brandenburg Nachkommen Karl's des Grossen
Siegfried Rosch Caroli Magni Progeni
Jacques Saillot Le Sang de Charlemagne
[snip]
As usual, in failing (yet) to definitively answer one question, we have
raised another. Every source I have seen to date (and obviously, I have
not seen ES) has shown Agnes, wife of Ramiro II of Aragon as daughter of
William by Philippa/Matilda of Toulouse.
There's not much room to doubt that Agnes was the daughter of Philippa.
Szabolcs de Vajay placed the birth of Agnes in 1103, at a time when by all
evidence her father was living as the husband of Philippa, whom he deserted
for his mistress a decade or so later. Agnes was first married shortly
before 9 January 1117, that fits neatly enough with her birth in 1103 or a
few years earlier.
We are told by the chronicler of Saint-Maixent that William married Philippa
in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons (his
namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also had five
daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted above] was
married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge habuit quoque
quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti Toarcensi).
That's helpful. I wish Vajay hadn't abstracted it (in his Ramiro &
Agnes article, note 93) as, ". . . habuit quoque quinque filias . . ." -
without the mention of the said marriage or the daughter married to
Thours (what was he thinking - the whole purpose of the footnote was to
document the parentage and chronology of Agnes, and he goes and leaves
out the meat).
So far I have not been able to find evidence of any illegitimate children
attributed to William the Troubadour in an early source, although his
amorous habits are well documented. Richard says that Raoul de Faye was
actually the son of Mauberge by her husband, and so the brother-in-law of
William's son by that means rather than by marriage to his supposed
illegitimate sister. The Poitiers-Valentinois connection was purely
fictional - the mother of Guillaume de Valentinois was still living in 1180,
many decades after Mauberge had died.
So much for ES. Is this Saillot's doing? Brandenburg is blameless - he
lists just three children of William, all by Philippa/Matilda: Wm, Ray,
and Aggie.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:dd1nnv$lbi$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
<snip>
Well, Vajay is not alone in that sort of cursory quoting practice, and at
least he gave some of the text - his generation came at the end of a time in
which all readers were imagined to be denizens of great European librairies,
with ready access to sources, and/or to be ready to take the author's word
for whatever was asserted about the contents.
I don't have ES neue Folge II to check for any further sources (I think Leo
probably has the only copy of this volume in Australia). Rösch surely did
not provide the information, as he didn't follow the Poitou line down to
William the Troubadour. Maybe it came from Saillot. However, Schwennicke and
his collaborators tend to be sloppy and credulous when it comes to French
lineages, sometimes even throwing together speculations that cancel each
other out, and the bibliographies can be next-to-useless indicators since
they sometimes ignore the better references in favour of worse, or prefer
their own ideas willy-nilly. Judging from the corrections to Band II that
were published in III, this was not his best effort.
Peter Stewart
news:dd1nnv$lbi$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Peter Stewart wrote:
<snip>
We are told by the chronicler of Saint-Maixent that William married
Philippa in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons
(his namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also
had five daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted
above] was married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge
habuit quoque quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti
Toarcensi).
That's helpful. I wish Vajay hadn't abstracted it (in his Ramiro & Agnes
article, note 93) as, ". . . habuit quoque quinque filias . . ." - without
the mention of the said marriage or the daughter married to Thours (what
was he thinking - the whole purpose of the footnote was to document the
parentage and chronology of Agnes, and he goes and leaves out the meat).
Well, Vajay is not alone in that sort of cursory quoting practice, and at
least he gave some of the text - his generation came at the end of a time in
which all readers were imagined to be denizens of great European librairies,
with ready access to sources, and/or to be ready to take the author's word
for whatever was asserted about the contents.
So far I have not been able to find evidence of any illegitimate children
attributed to William the Troubadour in an early source, although his
amorous habits are well documented. Richard says that Raoul de Faye was
actually the son of Mauberge by her husband, and so the brother-in-law of
William's son by that means rather than by marriage to his supposed
illegitimate sister. The Poitiers-Valentinois connection was purely
fictional - the mother of Guillaume de Valentinois was still living in
1180, many decades after Mauberge had died.
So much for ES. Is this Saillot's doing? Brandenburg is blameless - he
lists just three children of William, all by Philippa/Matilda: Wm, Ray,
and Aggie.
I don't have ES neue Folge II to check for any further sources (I think Leo
probably has the only copy of this volume in Australia). Rösch surely did
not provide the information, as he didn't follow the Poitou line down to
William the Troubadour. Maybe it came from Saillot. However, Schwennicke and
his collaborators tend to be sloppy and credulous when it comes to French
lineages, sometimes even throwing together speculations that cancel each
other out, and the bibliographies can be next-to-useless indicators since
they sometimes ignore the better references in favour of worse, or prefer
their own ideas willy-nilly. Judging from the corrections to Band II that
were published in III, this was not his best effort.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: marriage of Elizabeth Dannett to Sir John Arundell of La
In a message dated 8/6/05 12:44:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Could the father have held a position in the service of Katherine de
Valois?
She died in 1437 but she was the widow of Henry V, not VI. The widow of
Henry VI, Margaret of Anjou died in 1482. Still a long time before _before
1527_ when apparently the marriage took place.Something is thoroughly weird
here.
Leo >>
Yes it turns out her father was privy counselor to Henry VIII
The father had died (will in 1520)
Will
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Could the father have held a position in the service of Katherine de
Valois?
She died in 1437 but she was the widow of Henry V, not VI. The widow of
Henry VI, Margaret of Anjou died in 1482. Still a long time before _before
1527_ when apparently the marriage took place.Something is thoroughly weird
here.
Leo >>
Yes it turns out her father was privy counselor to Henry VIII
The father had died (will in 1520)
Will
-
Peter Stewart
Chronicle of Saint-Maixent [was: Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:dd1nnv$lbi$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
<snip>
It occurred to me that Vajay in 1966 must have been using an older edition
of the Saint-Maixent chronicle than Jean Verdon's from 1979, and maybe that
had punctuated the passage differently, so that "ex supradicta conjuge"
referred back to the namesake son of Duke William rather than specifically
to his five daughters encompassing the sons as well.
However, the edition by Marchegay that he used is available on Gallica at
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... UMM-202275 and
this (p. 419) agrees with Verdon.
This chronicle (aka 'de Maillezais') is an important source for the comital
family of Poitou - it is printed by Marchegay on pp. 351-433 if anyone wants
to download it without the rest of the book, although there's a lot of other
valuable material in it (most, but not all, now available in more recent
editions).
Peter Stewart
news:dd1nnv$lbi$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Peter Stewart wrote:
<snip>
We are told by the chronicler of Saint-Maixent that William married
Philippa in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons
(his namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also
had five daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted
above] was married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge
habuit quoque quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti
Toarcensi).
That's helpful. I wish Vajay hadn't abstracted it (in his Ramiro & Agnes
article, note 93) as, ". . . habuit quoque quinque filias . . ." - without
the mention of the said marriage or the daughter married to Thours (what
was he thinking - the whole purpose of the footnote was to document the
parentage and chronology of Agnes, and he goes and leaves out the meat).
It occurred to me that Vajay in 1966 must have been using an older edition
of the Saint-Maixent chronicle than Jean Verdon's from 1979, and maybe that
had punctuated the passage differently, so that "ex supradicta conjuge"
referred back to the namesake son of Duke William rather than specifically
to his five daughters encompassing the sons as well.
However, the edition by Marchegay that he used is available on Gallica at
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?D ... UMM-202275 and
this (p. 419) agrees with Verdon.
This chronicle (aka 'de Maillezais') is an important source for the comital
family of Poitou - it is printed by Marchegay on pp. 351-433 if anyone wants
to download it without the rest of the book, although there's a lot of other
valuable material in it (most, but not all, now available in more recent
editions).
Peter Stewart
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Daughters of Thomas Hampden, Esq., of Great Hampden, Bucking
Dear Tony ~
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
The record you posted from the Essex Record Office clearly pertains to
the family of Thomas Hampden, Esq. (died 1485), of Great Hampden,
Buckinghamshire, and his wife, Margery Popham. It seems obvious that
Joan Scotte and Glynis [Eleanor intended?] Cotes mentioned in this
document are two of Thomas Hampden's surviving daughters, which is
likewise suggested by the information I previously posted from Steve
Davis' Cahill Family database available online at http://www.ancestry.com.
Besides these two daughters, Mr. Davis' database gives two more:
Katherine (wife of _____ Goldington) and Alice (wife of Robert
Whitney). You can visit Mr. Davis' database at the following web
address:
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... I571110463
I suspect the document has been misdated to the reign of Henry VIII,
when it should be Henry VII. If so, the correct date would be 15 May,
22 Henry VII, or 1507. But, even that date is problematical. As I
recall, Margery, widow of Thomas Hampden, served as one of his
executors. Margery died before 1 December 1506, if I have correct year
of the probate of her will.
In any event, I'm always glad to see the marriages of any set of
daughters confirmed by primary evidence. If anyone has further
particulars on the Hampden children, I'd appreciate hearing from them
here on the newsgroup.
Thanks again, Tony.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Tony Ingham wrote:
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
The record you posted from the Essex Record Office clearly pertains to
the family of Thomas Hampden, Esq. (died 1485), of Great Hampden,
Buckinghamshire, and his wife, Margery Popham. It seems obvious that
Joan Scotte and Glynis [Eleanor intended?] Cotes mentioned in this
document are two of Thomas Hampden's surviving daughters, which is
likewise suggested by the information I previously posted from Steve
Davis' Cahill Family database available online at http://www.ancestry.com.
Besides these two daughters, Mr. Davis' database gives two more:
Katherine (wife of _____ Goldington) and Alice (wife of Robert
Whitney). You can visit Mr. Davis' database at the following web
address:
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... I571110463
I suspect the document has been misdated to the reign of Henry VIII,
when it should be Henry VII. If so, the correct date would be 15 May,
22 Henry VII, or 1507. But, even that date is problematical. As I
recall, Margery, widow of Thomas Hampden, served as one of his
executors. Margery died before 1 December 1506, if I have correct year
of the probate of her will.
In any event, I'm always glad to see the marriages of any set of
daughters confirmed by primary evidence. If anyone has further
particulars on the Hampden children, I'd appreciate hearing from them
here on the newsgroup.
Thanks again, Tony.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Tony Ingham wrote:
Douglas,
As you obviously did not receive my previous mailing or have overlooked
a reply I'll try again.
This time in two parts. Part 1 follows:
In reply to your posting you might be interested in the following which
indicates that the on line info contains more than a glimmer of truth.
[The E.R.O. index is riddled with typographical errors which probably
explains the name Glynis]
1530 Essex Record Office D/DCe/Z12
Draft (?of Agreement) betw (i) John HAMPDEN, esq., son and h. of John
HAMPDEN; (ii) Edm., Katryn and Margery HAMPDEN, exors. of will of Thomas
HAMPDEN; (iii) Edw., Francis and Alexander HAMPDEN, sons of Thomas and
Margery HAMPDEN; (iv) (blank) Scotte, gent.and w. Joan, and Humph. Cotes
and w. Glynis, daughter of Thomas and Margery HAMPDEN.
Recites will of Thomas HAMPDEN, incl. disposal of manors of
"Baledlowe, Chilton and Esynton (co. Bucks) and of other lands in "Buk
and Oxerford" (damaged) 15 May 22 Henry (viii, 1530)
Part 2, dealing with individuals in a previous thread on the Hampden
family will follow shortly.
Tony Ingham
AUSTRALIA
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my earlier post today on the Hampden family, I should
mention that there is information online in Ancestry World Tree Project
which gives the following marriages for Thomas Hampden's known four
daughters:
1. Alice, married Robert Whitney.
2. Katherine, married _____ Goldington.
3. Jane, married John Scott.
4. Eleanor, married Humphrey Cotes.
The sources for these marriages are supposed to be:
Putman Family by Even Putman; Hist and Antuquities of the County of
Buckingham; Victoria History of the Counties of England; Visitation of
the County of Buckingham.
Can anyone confirm any of the above four marriages? Is Robert Whitney
above by any chance connected to the immigrant, John Whitney, of
Watertown, Massachusetts.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Gjest
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
Peter Stewart wrote: "We are told by the chronicler of Saint-Maixent
that William married Philippa
in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons (his
namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also had
five
daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted above]
was
married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge habuit
quoque
quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti Toarcensi)."
Thank you for this information, Mr. Stewart. Is there any mention made
of the birthdate of the younger son, Raymond, later prince of Antioch?
It seems to me that he was probably born 1105 or thereabouts.
that William married Philippa
in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons (his
namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also had
five
daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted above]
was
married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge habuit
quoque
quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti Toarcensi)."
Thank you for this information, Mr. Stewart. Is there any mention made
of the birthdate of the younger son, Raymond, later prince of Antioch?
It seems to me that he was probably born 1105 or thereabouts.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
<Nichol_storm@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123368221.491522.179890@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Yes, that would be a reasonable assumption, especially if Vajay was right
about Agnes being born in mid-1103, since we are told that Raimond was the
youngest of seven children from a marriage that had taken place in 1094. The
relevant passage (that can be found through the link I posted earlier, on p.
419) is under 1099 as follows:
"Willelmo comiti natus est filius, equivoce Guillelmus vocatus. Ex
supradicta conjuge habuit quoque quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit
vicecomiti Toarcensi. Novissime genuit apud Tholosam uterinum, videlicet
Raimundum, qui postea regnavit in Antiochia." (A son was born to Count
William, named William like himself. From the aforesaid wife he had also
five daughters, one of whom was married to the viscount of Thouars. Youngest
among the Tolosan brood he fathered was of course Raimond, who later ruled
in Antioch).
Philippa was daughter of the count of Toulouse - however, according to
Verdon's translation into French the last sentence means "Finally he had a
son born at Toulouse...". Given his name from the comital family of
Toulouse, it's perfectly plausible that Raimond was actually born there, but
the words can be taken either way. The elder son William was by-named "the
Tolosan".
Peter Stewart
news:1123368221.491522.179890@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote: "We are told by the chronicler of Saint-Maixent
that William married Philippa
in 1094, and with the later report of the birth of his two sons (his
namesake & heir, and Raimond of Antioch) we are told that "he also had
five
daughters by the aforesaid wife, one of whom [Agnes, as noted above]
was
married to the viscount of Thouars" (ex supradicta conjuge habuit
quoque
quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit vicecomiti Toarcensi)."
Thank you for this information, Mr. Stewart. Is there any mention made
of the birthdate of the younger son, Raymond, later prince of Antioch?
It seems to me that he was probably born 1105 or thereabouts.
Yes, that would be a reasonable assumption, especially if Vajay was right
about Agnes being born in mid-1103, since we are told that Raimond was the
youngest of seven children from a marriage that had taken place in 1094. The
relevant passage (that can be found through the link I posted earlier, on p.
419) is under 1099 as follows:
"Willelmo comiti natus est filius, equivoce Guillelmus vocatus. Ex
supradicta conjuge habuit quoque quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit
vicecomiti Toarcensi. Novissime genuit apud Tholosam uterinum, videlicet
Raimundum, qui postea regnavit in Antiochia." (A son was born to Count
William, named William like himself. From the aforesaid wife he had also
five daughters, one of whom was married to the viscount of Thouars. Youngest
among the Tolosan brood he fathered was of course Raimond, who later ruled
in Antioch).
Philippa was daughter of the count of Toulouse - however, according to
Verdon's translation into French the last sentence means "Finally he had a
son born at Toulouse...". Given his name from the comital family of
Toulouse, it's perfectly plausible that Raimond was actually born there, but
the words can be taken either way. The elder son William was by-named "the
Tolosan".
Peter Stewart
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:42f3e964@news.ColoState.EDU...
According to Alfred Richard, the attribution of Henri de Poitou, a prior of
Cluny who became the wayward abbot of Saint-Jean d'Angély and Peterborough,
as a third son of William the Troubadour was an error of Jean Besly in
_Histoire des comtes de Poictou et ducs de Guyenne_ (Paris, 1647), p. 127.
Richard showed that this man must have been a good deal older than William's
children born after 1094, citing first a charter of Cluny dated 1100
witnessed by "domno Heynrico priore", and the list in _Gallia christiana_
showing only one prior at the abbey in the 12th century named Henry. Richard
suggested that the origin of Besly's mistake was a passage in William of
Tyre about a purported brother of Raimond of Antioch - in book 14, chapter
20: "Interseritur etiam pactis quod si domini Raimundi frater Henricus
nomine in partes descenderet Antiochenas, dominus patriarcha fideliter
elaboraret quomodo puelle matrem, domini Boamundi viduam, cum duabus urbibus
maritimis et earum finibus haberet uxorem" (It was also added to the
stipulations that if the lord Raimond's brother named Henry should come down
to Antioch, the lord patriarch would sincerely try to bring about that he
would have as wife the girl's mother, lord Bohemund's widow, along with two
port cities and their countryside). The widow in question was Raimond's
prospective mother-in-law Alix of Rethel, daughter of King Balduin II - the
supposed brother Henry is unidentified, but these events took place in the
mid-1130s and the partiarch was hardly referring to a discredited abbot in
France who had died some years before then (in January 1131).
Of William the Troubadour's four daughters apart from Agnes, nothing is
known for certain. However, Alienor of Aquitaine apparently referred to
another Agnes - known as "de Barbezieux", abbess of Notre-Dame at Saintes -
as her "aunt", and Richard thought this might have been one of them. He
doesn't give a reference, and without some firmer evidence it seems
implausible to me.
I can't find any evidence to link Henri "de Poitou" as a nephew of William
the Troubadour's mother Audiardis of Burgundy, as Richard claimed. The name
was certainly current in her family, but none of her half-siblings settled
in Poitou and if a nephew had followed her there he would more probably have
become known as "Henry the Burgundian" anyway.
Peter Stewart
news:42f3e964@news.ColoState.EDU...
Peter Stewart wrote:
Richardson wrote:
snip
King Henry I and Count Guillaume of Poitou were both descended from
the Dukes of Normandy and from the French kings. I assume Henry of
Poitou shared both of these connections as well. Can anyone identify
Henry of Poitou's parentage?
From memory, he was an illegitimate son of Duke William the Troubadour
(paternal grandfather of Alienor of Aquitaine) by his mistress Mauberge
(aka Dangerosse, the wife of Aimery, viscount of Châtellerault and
maternal grandmother of Alienor).
I have a chart that shows him as legitimate son of William. I don't trust
this chart as far as I can throw it, but since Peter was going from
memory, can anyone confirm his account.
According to Alfred Richard, the attribution of Henri de Poitou, a prior of
Cluny who became the wayward abbot of Saint-Jean d'Angély and Peterborough,
as a third son of William the Troubadour was an error of Jean Besly in
_Histoire des comtes de Poictou et ducs de Guyenne_ (Paris, 1647), p. 127.
Richard showed that this man must have been a good deal older than William's
children born after 1094, citing first a charter of Cluny dated 1100
witnessed by "domno Heynrico priore", and the list in _Gallia christiana_
showing only one prior at the abbey in the 12th century named Henry. Richard
suggested that the origin of Besly's mistake was a passage in William of
Tyre about a purported brother of Raimond of Antioch - in book 14, chapter
20: "Interseritur etiam pactis quod si domini Raimundi frater Henricus
nomine in partes descenderet Antiochenas, dominus patriarcha fideliter
elaboraret quomodo puelle matrem, domini Boamundi viduam, cum duabus urbibus
maritimis et earum finibus haberet uxorem" (It was also added to the
stipulations that if the lord Raimond's brother named Henry should come down
to Antioch, the lord patriarch would sincerely try to bring about that he
would have as wife the girl's mother, lord Bohemund's widow, along with two
port cities and their countryside). The widow in question was Raimond's
prospective mother-in-law Alix of Rethel, daughter of King Balduin II - the
supposed brother Henry is unidentified, but these events took place in the
mid-1130s and the partiarch was hardly referring to a discredited abbot in
France who had died some years before then (in January 1131).
Of William the Troubadour's four daughters apart from Agnes, nothing is
known for certain. However, Alienor of Aquitaine apparently referred to
another Agnes - known as "de Barbezieux", abbess of Notre-Dame at Saintes -
as her "aunt", and Richard thought this might have been one of them. He
doesn't give a reference, and without some firmer evidence it seems
implausible to me.
I can't find any evidence to link Henri "de Poitou" as a nephew of William
the Troubadour's mother Audiardis of Burgundy, as Richard claimed. The name
was certainly current in her family, but none of her half-siblings settled
in Poitou and if a nephew had followed her there he would more probably have
become known as "Henry the Burgundian" anyway.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
In a message dated 8/6/2005 11:40:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
Another piece of evidence is the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle I laboriously typed
out which states in one section, when speaking of him, that the monks "have not
enjoyed one happy day in twenty five years" or something like that (from
memory). Implying that he was the head for twenty five years. And so had to
certainly be an adult or near-adult at the time Williams' children were being born.
Will Johnson
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
Richard showed that this man must have been a good deal older than
William's
children born after 1094, citing first a charter of Cluny dated 1100
witnessed by "domno Heynrico priore", and the list in _Gallia christiana_
showing only one prior at the abbey in the 12th century named Henry.
Another piece of evidence is the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle I laboriously typed
out which states in one section, when speaking of him, that the monks "have not
enjoyed one happy day in twenty five years" or something like that (from
memory). Implying that he was the head for twenty five years. And so had to
certainly be an adult or near-adult at the time Williams' children were being born.
Will Johnson
-
Deirdre
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
I had no idea you were such an authority on dykes...
I guess all those years of pimping your mum really
gave you an education, hm?
It rankles you, doesn't it? I'll cheerfully admit I'm an
STA for Uncle Sam. STA mean "Special Term Appoint-
ment"...what's special about it, how long the term is
and who appointed me, I'm afraid, are none of your
business. Suffice to say, I'm not overly concerned
about unemployment.
You're just having a hell of a time, aren't you? Digging
and ferreting about and not coming up with a damn
thing except your own wild guesses...the majority of
which are so far off base it's pathetic.
And for all that you've tried, you still haven't managed
to goad me into divulging a thing...haven't you figured
out yet, I'm too cold-blooded to fall for your silly, wee
game? This isn't the kiddy pool, this is the deep end
and I've been swimming in shark infested waters my
entire adult life...your sort _never_ gets any change
off of me. If I tell you anything, you can assume it's
because I don't care if you, or anyone else, knows it...
if I don't want you to know something, there's nothing
you can say and no button you can push which will make
me tell you.
I don't care what you think. I don't require your ap-
proval. Your opinion, good or otherwise, means no-
thing to me. _You_ mean nothing to me. You have
no significance in my life, you'll fade into well-deserved
oblivion like all the other kooks leaving nothing more
than the stench of your passing and I won't have been
affected in the least.
You don't Get It, do you? You can't provoke someone
who simply doesn't care about your opinion.
Deirdre
Yes, Deirdre Sholto-Douglas definitely looks like the Bull Dyke From
Hell.
I had no idea you were such an authority on dykes...
I guess all those years of pimping your mum really
gave you an education, hm?
It rankles you, doesn't it? I'll cheerfully admit I'm an
STA for Uncle Sam. STA mean "Special Term Appoint-
ment"...what's special about it, how long the term is
and who appointed me, I'm afraid, are none of your
business. Suffice to say, I'm not overly concerned
about unemployment.
You're just having a hell of a time, aren't you? Digging
and ferreting about and not coming up with a damn
thing except your own wild guesses...the majority of
which are so far off base it's pathetic.
And for all that you've tried, you still haven't managed
to goad me into divulging a thing...haven't you figured
out yet, I'm too cold-blooded to fall for your silly, wee
game? This isn't the kiddy pool, this is the deep end
and I've been swimming in shark infested waters my
entire adult life...your sort _never_ gets any change
off of me. If I tell you anything, you can assume it's
because I don't care if you, or anyone else, knows it...
if I don't want you to know something, there's nothing
you can say and no button you can push which will make
me tell you.
I don't care what you think. I don't require your ap-
proval. Your opinion, good or otherwise, means no-
thing to me. _You_ mean nothing to me. You have
no significance in my life, you'll fade into well-deserved
oblivion like all the other kooks leaving nothing more
than the stench of your passing and I won't have been
affected in the least.
You don't Get It, do you? You can't provoke someone
who simply doesn't care about your opinion.
Deirdre
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
Yes, Deirdre Sholto-Douglas definitely looks like the Bull Dyke From
Hell.
Her photo will be found here:
http://www.mesg.anl.gov/
But she is Entertaining!
After all, that's the most important thing on USENET.
Yes, this wench provides Good Value in Entertainment.
Enjoy!
Now, if she is a Great-Great-Great Granddaughter, or some such, of John
Sholto Douglas, 9th Marquess of Queensberry (20 July 1844 - 31 January
1900), who was an eccentric Scottish nobleman, remembered for lending
his name to the "Marquess of Queensberry rules" that formed the basis of
modern boxing -- that would be INTERESTING -- no, not IMPRESSIVE -- but
it would give her some CACHET and provide an interesting topic of
CONVERSATION -- taking her out of the mundane Bull Dyke From Hell
Category.
Hell, we have scores of those already on USENET and don't really need
another.
Frankly, I'd pay good money at a BOXING SMOKER to see Deirdre take on
Hillary Swank in the RING.
Or Mud Wrestling -- or even "The Dyke From Hell" Contest.
But the match would have MUCH more panache, and make for a bigger purse,
if she is indeed a direct descendant of the Marquess of Queensberry --
who doesn't fight by his rules.
Rupert Murdoch will also make a Big Story out of it.
Garbanza!
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
Fortem Posce Animum.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Hell.
Her photo will be found here:
http://www.mesg.anl.gov/
But she is Entertaining!
After all, that's the most important thing on USENET.
Yes, this wench provides Good Value in Entertainment.
Enjoy!
Now, if she is a Great-Great-Great Granddaughter, or some such, of John
Sholto Douglas, 9th Marquess of Queensberry (20 July 1844 - 31 January
1900), who was an eccentric Scottish nobleman, remembered for lending
his name to the "Marquess of Queensberry rules" that formed the basis of
modern boxing -- that would be INTERESTING -- no, not IMPRESSIVE -- but
it would give her some CACHET and provide an interesting topic of
CONVERSATION -- taking her out of the mundane Bull Dyke From Hell
Category.
Hell, we have scores of those already on USENET and don't really need
another.
Frankly, I'd pay good money at a BOXING SMOKER to see Deirdre take on
Hillary Swank in the RING.
Or Mud Wrestling -- or even "The Dyke From Hell" Contest.
But the match would have MUCH more panache, and make for a bigger purse,
if she is indeed a direct descendant of the Marquess of Queensberry --
who doesn't fight by his rules.
Rupert Murdoch will also make a Big Story out of it.
Garbanza!
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
Fortem Posce Animum.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
-
Gjest
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:48:19 -0600, "Todd A. Farmerie"
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Husband: William IX, Duke of Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born: 22 Oct 1071 in
Died: 10 Feb 1127 in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wife: Philippa, of Toulouse
Married: 1094 in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born: abt 1073 in
Died: 28 Nov 1117 in
Father: William IV, Count of Toulouse
Mother: Emme, of Cornwall
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F Child 1: Agnes, of Aquitaine
Born:
Died: 1136 in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debrett's King & Queens of Europe
by David Williamson
Brendan Wilson
To Reply: remove [.] from around the dot. Stops Spam
Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.
<farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Husband: William IX, Duke of Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born: 22 Oct 1071 in
Died: 10 Feb 1127 in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wife: Philippa, of Toulouse
Married: 1094 in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born: abt 1073 in
Died: 28 Nov 1117 in
Father: William IV, Count of Toulouse
Mother: Emme, of Cornwall
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F Child 1: Agnes, of Aquitaine
Born:
Died: 1136 in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debrett's King & Queens of Europe
by David Williamson
Brendan Wilson
Leo van de Pas wrote:
Dear Todd,
A guideline, no cast-iron proof, is Schwennicke ES Volume II Tafel 76.
Here is shown that Guillaume VII-IX le jeune had by Maubergon or
Dangerose both wife of Amaury de Chatellerault the following children
Raimond, Prince of Antiochia
Henri Abbot of Cluny
Agnes/Mathilde wife of (1) Aimery de Thouars (2) Ramiro II King of Aragon
Adelaide wife of Raoul de Fays
Agnes Abbess of Saintes
Guillaume Count of Valentinois ancestor of the family Poitiers-Valentinois
Tafel 76 gives as sources
Erich Brandenburg Nachkommen Karl's des Grossen
Siegfried Rosch Caroli Magni Progeni
Jacques Saillot Le Sang de Charlemagne
Isenburg/Freytag von Loringhoven, Volume II Tafel 28 (corrected and
added to by Schwennicke) gives Guillaume VII-IX a wrong second wife,
mother of all his children
Guillaume VIII-X, Raimond, Agnes (Agnes/Mathilde by Schwennicke) and
four daughters.
What do you think is the situation? Do you think Henri is somehow a
confused addition to this family?
I don't know one way or the other, but we have had two conflicting
answers here - ES showing the relationship as related, but Richard
showing it otherwise.
As usual, in failing (yet) to definitively answer one question, we have
raised another. Every source I have seen to date (and obviously, I have
not seen ES) has shown Agnes, wife of Ramiro II of Aragon as daughter of
William by Philippa/Matilda of Toulouse.
taf
To Reply: remove [.] from around the dot. Stops Spam
Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
<wilson97@paradise.net[.]nz> wrote in message
news:reeef19frk6339i3ntko52c2n813o2csij@4ax.com...
I don't understand the point that is being made here, but Agnes is not known
to have been the eldest child of Duke William IX and she died well after
1136 - on 8 March, probably in 1159 (she was dead by 1160).
Peter Stewart
news:reeef19frk6339i3ntko52c2n813o2csij@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:48:19 -0600, "Todd A. Farmerie"
farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:
Husband: William IX, Duke of Aquitaine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born: 22 Oct 1071 in
Died: 10 Feb 1127 in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wife: Philippa, of Toulouse
Married: 1094 in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Born: abt 1073 in
Died: 28 Nov 1117 in
Father: William IV, Count of Toulouse
Mother: Emme, of Cornwall
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F Child 1: Agnes, of Aquitaine
Born:
Died: 1136 in
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debrett's King & Queens of Europe
by David Williamson
I don't understand the point that is being made here, but Agnes is not known
to have been the eldest child of Duke William IX and she died well after
1136 - on 8 March, probably in 1159 (she was dead by 1160).
Peter Stewart
-
Michilín
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:41:06 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm very disappointed. You're just another Usenet pposeur.
I looked up your family name. Common in very respect.
Don't call us, etc. And get your wanking pal BillC into treatment
asap.
Good day.
Mìcheil
S' an tir na deòir 's e 'n eug ar dualchas
In the land of tears death is our heritage
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm very disappointed. You're just another Usenet pposeur.
I looked up your family name. Common in very respect.
Don't call us, etc. And get your wanking pal BillC into treatment
asap.
Good day.
Mìcheil
S' an tir na deòir 's e 'n eug ar dualchas
In the land of tears death is our heritage
-
tiglath
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
Deirdre wrote:
Ouch!
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
Yes, Deirdre Sholto-Douglas definitely looks like the Bull Dyke From
Hell.
I had no idea you were such an authority on dykes...
I guess all those years of pimping your mum really
gave you an education, hm?
Ouch!
-
William Black
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
"Michilín" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:42f78959.7154377@news...
The sound of a penny dropping...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:41:06 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm very disappointed. You're just another Usenet pposeur.
The sound of a penny dropping...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
Dear Newsgroup ~
Now that the penny has dropped, I suggest we get back to genealogy and
being friends.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
William Black wrote:
Now that the penny has dropped, I suggest we get back to genealogy and
being friends.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
William Black wrote:
"Michilín" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:42f78959.7154377@news...
On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:41:06 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm very disappointed. You're just another Usenet pposeur.
The sound of a penny dropping...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Our Recent Meeting With Soc.History.Medieval.
Actually, BOTH men are descendants of Charlemagne.
William The Conqueror is a 9th great-grandson of Charlemagne and William
'The Lion' of Scotland is a 10th great-grandson.
DSH
"Stephen Copinger" <stephen.copinger@highlandlaw.bounce.co.uk> wrote in
message news:42f7a514$0$5853$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...
| "D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
| news:42F4A8EE.5050507@fidalgo.net...
| >
| <snip>
| > Descendants of William I are descendants of Charlemagne, you
| > ignoramus.
| >
| Is that William the Lion, or William the Bastard? If you don't
| specify the country you need to clarify in some other fashion.
|
| Beannachd leibh
| Stephen
| --
| This is a personal email, which does not necessarily express the views
| or position of Highland Law Practice.
William The Conqueror is a 9th great-grandson of Charlemagne and William
'The Lion' of Scotland is a 10th great-grandson.
DSH
"Stephen Copinger" <stephen.copinger@highlandlaw.bounce.co.uk> wrote in
message news:42f7a514$0$5853$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net...
| "D. Patterson" <nye@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
| news:42F4A8EE.5050507@fidalgo.net...
| >
| <snip>
| > Descendants of William I are descendants of Charlemagne, you
| > ignoramus.
| >
| Is that William the Lion, or William the Bastard? If you don't
| specify the country you need to clarify in some other fashion.
|
| Beannachd leibh
| Stephen
| --
| This is a personal email, which does not necessarily express the views
| or position of Highland Law Practice.
-
Gjest
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
Peter Stewart wrote:
Thank you, Mr. Stewart. I forgot to add in my earlier message that I
attempted to view the chronicle at Gallica, but for some unknown reason
was unable. I conferred with two acquaintances of mine, both of whom
are familiar with Latin, with regards to the text concerning Raymond.
According to them, "apud" usually means "at" or "near" when paired with
a place-name (as it is in "apud Tholosam"). They believe it refers to
him being born in Toulouse, or perhaps an alternate interpretation is
that he was born into the aristocratic house of Toulouse. They cited a
phrase from Cicero, "agri in Hispania apud Karthaginem Novam" (fields
in Spain near Cartagena) to illustrate this.
Yes, that would be a reasonable assumption, especially if Vajay was right
about Agnes being born in mid-1103, since we are told that Raimond was the
youngest of seven children from a marriage that had taken place in 1094. The
relevant passage (that can be found through the link I posted earlier, on p.
419) is under 1099 as follows:
"Willelmo comiti natus est filius, equivoce Guillelmus vocatus. Ex
supradicta conjuge habuit quoque quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit
vicecomiti Toarcensi. Novissime genuit apud Tholosam uterinum, videlicet
Raimundum, qui postea regnavit in Antiochia." (A son was born to Count
William, named William like himself. From the aforesaid wife he had also
five daughters, one of whom was married to the viscount of Thouars. Youngest
among the Tolosan brood he fathered was of course Raimond, who later ruled
in Antioch).
Philippa was daughter of the count of Toulouse - however, according to
Verdon's translation into French the last sentence means "Finally he had a
son born at Toulouse...". Given his name from the comital family of
Toulouse, it's perfectly plausible that Raimond was actually born there, but
the words can be taken either way. The elder son William was by-named "the
Tolosan".
Peter Stewart
Thank you, Mr. Stewart. I forgot to add in my earlier message that I
attempted to view the chronicle at Gallica, but for some unknown reason
was unable. I conferred with two acquaintances of mine, both of whom
are familiar with Latin, with regards to the text concerning Raymond.
According to them, "apud" usually means "at" or "near" when paired with
a place-name (as it is in "apud Tholosam"). They believe it refers to
him being born in Toulouse, or perhaps an alternate interpretation is
that he was born into the aristocratic house of Toulouse. They cited a
phrase from Cicero, "agri in Hispania apud Karthaginem Novam" (fields
in Spain near Cartagena) to illustrate this.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
<Nichol_storm@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123532539.924627.314360@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
"Apud" can mean a number of things, "with", "by", "near", "among" or, as the
French would say, "chez".
In Jean Verdon's translation "apud Tholosam" indicates that Raimond of
Antioch himself was born "at Toulouse", but it could equally mean that he
was the last of the fruits of the union of his parents to be born there.
However, I can't see in the context that the chronicler was taking an
exceptional interest in the birthplace of Raimond and/or his siblings, and I
think the meaning of "apud" here is more "among" rather than "at" - i.e.
that Raimond was the latest among the uterine issue begotten from his
father's marriage to the Tolosan wife Philippa (born "chez Toulouse" if you
like, which should be "Tholosanam" for the individual perhaps), so
representing as much the family as the place that she came from, and not
where all her children or any of them were necessarily born.
That is why I left the ambiguity by turning "Tholosam" into an adjective and
"uterinum" into a neuter genitive plural, of the kind frequently used by
this writer. It's not elegant, but the chonicle of Saint-Maixent is far from
a literary marvel.
Peter Stewart
news:1123532539.924627.314360@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:
Yes, that would be a reasonable assumption, especially if Vajay was right
about Agnes being born in mid-1103, since we are told that Raimond was
the
youngest of seven children from a marriage that had taken place in 1094.
The
relevant passage (that can be found through the link I posted earlier, on
p.
419) is under 1099 as follows:
"Willelmo comiti natus est filius, equivoce Guillelmus vocatus. Ex
supradicta conjuge habuit quoque quinque filias, quarum unam desponsavit
vicecomiti Toarcensi. Novissime genuit apud Tholosam uterinum, videlicet
Raimundum, qui postea regnavit in Antiochia." (A son was born to Count
William, named William like himself. From the aforesaid wife he had also
five daughters, one of whom was married to the viscount of Thouars.
Youngest
among the Tolosan brood he fathered was of course Raimond, who later
ruled
in Antioch).
Philippa was daughter of the count of Toulouse - however, according to
Verdon's translation into French the last sentence means "Finally he had
a
son born at Toulouse...". Given his name from the comital family of
Toulouse, it's perfectly plausible that Raimond was actually born there,
but
the words can be taken either way. The elder son William was by-named
"the
Tolosan".
Peter Stewart
Thank you, Mr. Stewart. I forgot to add in my earlier message that I
attempted to view the chronicle at Gallica, but for some unknown reason
was unable. I conferred with two acquaintances of mine, both of whom
are familiar with Latin, with regards to the text concerning Raymond.
According to them, "apud" usually means "at" or "near" when paired with
a place-name (as it is in "apud Tholosam"). They believe it refers to
him being born in Toulouse, or perhaps an alternate interpretation is
that he was born into the aristocratic house of Toulouse. They cited a
phrase from Cicero, "agri in Hispania apud Karthaginem Novam" (fields
in Spain near Cartagena) to illustrate this.
"Apud" can mean a number of things, "with", "by", "near", "among" or, as the
French would say, "chez".
In Jean Verdon's translation "apud Tholosam" indicates that Raimond of
Antioch himself was born "at Toulouse", but it could equally mean that he
was the last of the fruits of the union of his parents to be born there.
However, I can't see in the context that the chronicler was taking an
exceptional interest in the birthplace of Raimond and/or his siblings, and I
think the meaning of "apud" here is more "among" rather than "at" - i.e.
that Raimond was the latest among the uterine issue begotten from his
father's marriage to the Tolosan wife Philippa (born "chez Toulouse" if you
like, which should be "Tholosanam" for the individual perhaps), so
representing as much the family as the place that she came from, and not
where all her children or any of them were necessarily born.
That is why I left the ambiguity by turning "Tholosam" into an adjective and
"uterinum" into a neuter genitive plural, of the kind frequently used by
this writer. It's not elegant, but the chonicle of Saint-Maixent is far from
a literary marvel.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
Doug I totally agree with you 100%. If this has nothing to do with
genealogy they need to take it private.
Mike
genealogy they need to take it private.
Mike
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Henry of Poitou, Abbot of Peterborough 1127-
I wrote:
<snip>
To make this clearer, it should read: That is why I left the ambiguity
by turning "Tholosam" into an adjective in English and reading
"uterinum" as a neuter genitive plural, of the kind frequently used by
this writer, instead of a masculine accusative singular - as Verdon
quite properly took it to be by translating this straightforwardly as
"son", qualified by "that is, Raimond", born at Toulouse.
If Verdon is right and there was a point to be implied in passing about
Raimond's birthplace this would probably be connected with the efforts
of his father to acquire Toulouse for his family, as the inheritance of
Philippa. That would add to the probability of Raimond's birth having
taken place there in 1105, soon after the death of Philippa's uncle
(and usurper of her rights as viewed from Aquitaine) Raimond of
Saint-Gilles, in February 1105.
I recall a paper about Duke William's incursions into Toulouse, and I
will try to find this to check if he was there in 1105.
Peter Stewart
<snip>
That is why I left the ambiguity by turning "Tholosam" into an adjective
and "uterinum" into a neuter genitive plural, of the kind frequently used
by this writer.
To make this clearer, it should read: That is why I left the ambiguity
by turning "Tholosam" into an adjective in English and reading
"uterinum" as a neuter genitive plural, of the kind frequently used by
this writer, instead of a masculine accusative singular - as Verdon
quite properly took it to be by translating this straightforwardly as
"son", qualified by "that is, Raimond", born at Toulouse.
If Verdon is right and there was a point to be implied in passing about
Raimond's birthplace this would probably be connected with the efforts
of his father to acquire Toulouse for his family, as the inheritance of
Philippa. That would add to the probability of Raimond's birth having
taken place there in 1105, soon after the death of Philippa's uncle
(and usurper of her rights as viewed from Aquitaine) Raimond of
Saint-Gilles, in February 1105.
I recall a paper about Duke William's incursions into Toulouse, and I
will try to find this to check if he was there in 1105.
Peter Stewart
-
Todd A. Farmerie
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
mwelch8442@yahoo.com wrote:
[not to Mr. Welch in particular, but to anyone who feels the need to
comment on the inappropriateness of the thread in a medieval genealogy
group]
All of us agreeing to the appropriate percentage doesn't really help.
The thread in question was started elsewhere, and is been carried out by
people from those other groups, with one exception - the participant who
decided that the five groups it was being shared among was not enough
and added this group as a sixth, so that we too could share in the
happiness he was deriving from the experience. Any complaints or
comments sent only to soc.gen.med will fall on deaf ears, since the
perpetrator of the crosspost is indifferent to your desires, while the
other participants in the thread are not soc.gen.med readers and hence
will not see your recommendation. You could likewise crosspost to the
other groups, but it is no more on-topic in any of them, and this would
make you part of the problem. Comments here about how much you don't
like it really serve no purpose, as those who are behind the disturbance
cannot or will not hear you. Such threads are best ignored in their
entirety. (If your reader does not clearly indicate crossposted
messages, you can identify these threads by their lack of genealogical
content, the repeated participation of a lot of people you don't
recognize as a regular soc.gen.med/GEN-MED participant, and the
involvement of the individual whose initials are in the subject header
of this one.)
taf
Doug I totally agree with you 100%. If this has nothing to do with
genealogy they need to take it private.
[not to Mr. Welch in particular, but to anyone who feels the need to
comment on the inappropriateness of the thread in a medieval genealogy
group]
All of us agreeing to the appropriate percentage doesn't really help.
The thread in question was started elsewhere, and is been carried out by
people from those other groups, with one exception - the participant who
decided that the five groups it was being shared among was not enough
and added this group as a sixth, so that we too could share in the
happiness he was deriving from the experience. Any complaints or
comments sent only to soc.gen.med will fall on deaf ears, since the
perpetrator of the crosspost is indifferent to your desires, while the
other participants in the thread are not soc.gen.med readers and hence
will not see your recommendation. You could likewise crosspost to the
other groups, but it is no more on-topic in any of them, and this would
make you part of the problem. Comments here about how much you don't
like it really serve no purpose, as those who are behind the disturbance
cannot or will not hear you. Such threads are best ignored in their
entirety. (If your reader does not clearly indicate crossposted
messages, you can identify these threads by their lack of genealogical
content, the repeated participation of a lot of people you don't
recognize as a regular soc.gen.med/GEN-MED participant, and the
involvement of the individual whose initials are in the subject header
of this one.)
taf
-
BillC
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
"Michilín" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:42f78959.7154377@news...
Michelle is touchy tonight. I think its being pressured by Black and others
and is losing whatever nerve it had.
On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:41:06 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'm very disappointed. You're just another Usenet pposeur.
I looked up your family name. Common in very respect.
Don't call us, etc. And get your wanking pal BillC into treatment
asap.
Michelle is touchy tonight. I think its being pressured by Black and others
and is losing whatever nerve it had.
-
CED
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Todd:
Of course, most of us applaud your effort.
It is worthy of note that DSH most often cross-posts, resulting in
many off topic posts to this newsgroup. These then create an
opportunity for others to make self-serving posts, such as DR's school
marmish "tut-tut" and that of the other one who never disagrees with
DR. DSH, DR, and the third, what a threesome!
CED
mwelch8442@yahoo.com wrote:
Doug I totally agree with you 100%. If this has nothing to do with
genealogy they need to take it private.
[not to Mr. Welch in particular, but to anyone who feels the need to
comment on the inappropriateness of the thread in a medieval genealogy
group]
All of us agreeing to the appropriate percentage doesn't really help.
Todd:
Of course, most of us applaud your effort.
It is worthy of note that DSH most often cross-posts, resulting in
many off topic posts to this newsgroup. These then create an
opportunity for others to make self-serving posts, such as DR's school
marmish "tut-tut" and that of the other one who never disagrees with
DR. DSH, DR, and the third, what a threesome!
CED
The thread in question was started elsewhere, and is been carried out by
people from those other groups, with one exception - the participant who
decided that the five groups it was being shared among was not enough
and added this group as a sixth, so that we too could share in the
happiness he was deriving from the experience. Any complaints or
comments sent only to soc.gen.med will fall on deaf ears, since the
perpetrator of the crosspost is indifferent to your desires, while the
other participants in the thread are not soc.gen.med readers and hence
will not see your recommendation. You could likewise crosspost to the
other groups, but it is no more on-topic in any of them, and this would
make you part of the problem. Comments here about how much you don't
like it really serve no purpose, as those who are behind the disturbance
cannot or will not hear you. Such threads are best ignored in their
entirety. (If your reader does not clearly indicate crossposted
messages, you can identify these threads by their lack of genealogical
content, the repeated participation of a lot of people you don't
recognize as a regular soc.gen.med/GEN-MED participant, and the
involvement of the individual whose initials are in the subject header
of this one.)
taf
-
Gjest
re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had
Whilst meandering about in the A2A reader, I chanced upon records of the
Bohun family of Midhurst. Comparing what I can determine with what Leo has in
his excellent database here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 8&tree=LEO
we see that Joan of Braose was daughter of William and Agnes
and she married James of Bohun who b 3 Feb 1280/1 and d bef 30 May 1306
This Joan had a sister given at Leo's as "Aliva" but here in the A2A as
"Aline"
I think we already beat the horse to death on whether "Aliva" and "Aline" are
the same name....
At any rate, here I present a son to this couple, not mentioned in Leo's
database.
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Reference Code: COWDRAY
The Cowdray Archives
Creation dates: c 1200-1922
Creator(s): Browne family of Cowdray Park, Viscounts Montague
Held at: West Sussex Record Office
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 33
Deposition, as proof of age, that John, s. of James de Bohun, was born at the
manor of 'Thadeham' [Todham in Easebourne] and baptized there 'on the third
day after the feast of St. Martin in the Winter in the year A.D. 1304', 1323
[Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 6, p. 263].
Creation dates: 1323
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 34
Finding by inquisition that Aline, late wife of John de Moubray, and John de
Bohoun [sic], son and heir of Joan late wife of James de Bohun, are the next
heirs of William de Brewosa alias Brewose, and are of full age, 1326 [Calendar
of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 6, p. 435].
Creation dates: 1326
Bohun family of Midhurst. Comparing what I can determine with what Leo has in
his excellent database here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 8&tree=LEO
we see that Joan of Braose was daughter of William and Agnes
and she married James of Bohun who b 3 Feb 1280/1 and d bef 30 May 1306
This Joan had a sister given at Leo's as "Aliva" but here in the A2A as
"Aline"
I think we already beat the horse to death on whether "Aliva" and "Aline" are
the same name....
At any rate, here I present a son to this couple, not mentioned in Leo's
database.
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Reference Code: COWDRAY
The Cowdray Archives
Creation dates: c 1200-1922
Creator(s): Browne family of Cowdray Park, Viscounts Montague
Held at: West Sussex Record Office
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 33
Deposition, as proof of age, that John, s. of James de Bohun, was born at the
manor of 'Thadeham' [Todham in Easebourne] and baptized there 'on the third
day after the feast of St. Martin in the Winter in the year A.D. 1304', 1323
[Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 6, p. 263].
Creation dates: 1323
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 34
Finding by inquisition that Aline, late wife of John de Moubray, and John de
Bohoun [sic], son and heir of Joan late wife of James de Bohun, are the next
heirs of William de Brewosa alias Brewose, and are of full age, 1326 [Calendar
of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 6, p. 435].
Creation dates: 1326
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had
In a message dated 8/8/05 7:56:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< Whilst meandering about in the A2A reader, I chanced upon records of the
Bohun family of Midhurst. Comparing what I can determine with what Leo has
in
his excellent database here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 8&tree=LEO
we see that Joan of Braose was daughter of William and Agnes
and she married James of Bohun who b 3 Feb 1280/1 and d bef 30 May 1306 >>
And further, I now present the father of James, whom Leo does not show either.
Will Johnson
---------------------------------------
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 20
Order to the justiciary of Ireland to cause James, son and heir of John de
Bohun of Midhurst, to have seisin of his father's lands, 1302 [Calendar of Close
Rolls, 1296-1302, p. 561].
Creation dates: 1302
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 21
Order to take into the king's hands the lands of James de Bohun of Midhurst,
lately decd., 1306/7 [Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 1, p. 553].
Creation dates: 1306/7
writes:
<< Whilst meandering about in the A2A reader, I chanced upon records of the
Bohun family of Midhurst. Comparing what I can determine with what Leo has
in
his excellent database here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 8&tree=LEO
we see that Joan of Braose was daughter of William and Agnes
and she married James of Bohun who b 3 Feb 1280/1 and d bef 30 May 1306 >>
And further, I now present the father of James, whom Leo does not show either.
Will Johnson
---------------------------------------
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 20
Order to the justiciary of Ireland to cause James, son and heir of John de
Bohun of Midhurst, to have seisin of his father's lands, 1302 [Calendar of Close
Rolls, 1296-1302, p. 561].
Creation dates: 1302
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 21
Order to take into the king's hands the lands of James de Bohun of Midhurst,
lately decd., 1306/7 [Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 1, p. 553].
Creation dates: 1306/7
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had
In a message dated 8/8/05 8:01:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< we see that Joan of Braose was daughter of William and Agnes
and she married James of Bohun who b 3 Feb 1280/1 and d bef 30 May 1306 >>
Joan of Braose, died 1323/4
I present this document, showing she was alive in 1323
Will Johnson
-----------------------------------------------------------
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 31
Protection for two years for Joan late wife of John de Bohun of Midhurst,
1323 [Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1321-1324, p. 271].
Creation dates: 1323
writes:
<< we see that Joan of Braose was daughter of William and Agnes
and she married James of Bohun who b 3 Feb 1280/1 and d bef 30 May 1306 >>
Joan of Braose, died 1323/4
I present this document, showing she was alive in 1323
Will Johnson
-----------------------------------------------------------
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 31
Protection for two years for Joan late wife of John de Bohun of Midhurst,
1323 [Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1321-1324, p. 271].
Creation dates: 1323
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had
In a message dated 8/8/05 8:07:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< << we see that Joan of Braose was daughter of William and Agnes
and she married James of Bohun who b 3 Feb 1280/1 and d bef 30 May 1306 >>
The heir of James de Bohun and Joan de Braose was a
John of Bohun b "in the Winter" of 1304 at Todham, Easebourne
He married before 1351 to a Cicily
This John died 1367/8 at which point it appears their heir John was a minor
Cicely herself d 13 Aug 1381 per her IPM
and heir John of Bohun was 21 years old or more at that time.
Will Johnson
writes:
<< << we see that Joan of Braose was daughter of William and Agnes
and she married James of Bohun who b 3 Feb 1280/1 and d bef 30 May 1306 >>
The heir of James de Bohun and Joan de Braose was a
John of Bohun b "in the Winter" of 1304 at Todham, Easebourne
He married before 1351 to a Cicily
This John died 1367/8 at which point it appears their heir John was a minor
Cicely herself d 13 Aug 1381 per her IPM
and heir John of Bohun was 21 years old or more at that time.
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Warmest Thanks To DSH
Great post, Todd. Glad to see you're on top of things.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
mwelch8442@yahoo.com wrote:
Doug I totally agree with you 100%. If this has nothing to do with
genealogy they need to take it private.
[not to Mr. Welch in particular, but to anyone who feels the need to
comment on the inappropriateness of the thread in a medieval genealogy
group]
All of us agreeing to the appropriate percentage doesn't really help.
The thread in question was started elsewhere, and is been carried out by
people from those other groups, with one exception - the participant who
decided that the five groups it was being shared among was not enough
and added this group as a sixth, so that we too could share in the
happiness he was deriving from the experience. Any complaints or
comments sent only to soc.gen.med will fall on deaf ears, since the
perpetrator of the crosspost is indifferent to your desires, while the
other participants in the thread are not soc.gen.med readers and hence
will not see your recommendation. You could likewise crosspost to the
other groups, but it is no more on-topic in any of them, and this would
make you part of the problem. Comments here about how much you don't
like it really serve no purpose, as those who are behind the disturbance
cannot or will not hear you. Such threads are best ignored in their
entirety. (If your reader does not clearly indicate crossposted
messages, you can identify these threads by their lack of genealogical
content, the repeated participation of a lot of people you don't
recognize as a regular soc.gen.med/GEN-MED participant, and the
involvement of the individual whose initials are in the subject header
of this one.)
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
I was persuing the "Bramber" Lords when I found an earlier marriage contract
for this John, 4th Lord Mowbray. See Leo's site here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 7&tree=LEO
And now I add this document
Will Johnson
-----------------------------------------------------
Reference Code: BCM
Berkeley Castle Muniments
Creation dates: 1153-17th cent
Creator(s): Berkeley family of Berkeley, Gloucestershire
Reference: BCM/D/1/1/11
Creation dates: [1343]
Language: French
Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir James de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter, and Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300 marks at
the Easter next after.
At: London.
[Please quote SC511 at Berkeley Castle Muniments when requesting this file]
for this John, 4th Lord Mowbray. See Leo's site here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 7&tree=LEO
And now I add this document
Will Johnson
-----------------------------------------------------
Reference Code: BCM
Berkeley Castle Muniments
Creation dates: 1153-17th cent
Creator(s): Berkeley family of Berkeley, Gloucestershire
Reference: BCM/D/1/1/11
Creation dates: [1343]
Language: French
Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir James de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter, and Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300 marks at
the Easter next after.
At: London.
[Please quote SC511 at Berkeley Castle Muniments when requesting this file]
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 9:06:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter, and
Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300 marks
at
the Easter next after. >>
I had no idea what I'd stumbled into here I think.
I tried to find "Edward Salisbury" on Leo's web site and hit nothing. When I
should have hit something like
Edward, Earl of Salisbury. I couldn't quite figure out who this was and why
I couldn't find him, because I think Leo done a great job in entering all the
higher nobility.
So I meandered around a bit and discovered that THIS is the *brother* of the
prevoius Earl
William, Earl of Salisbury DIED 30 Jan 1343/4. The above document is dated
five months later.
So .... his brother took his title of Earl since the eldest son William was
only 15 at the time ?
Leo's call's the son William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury. But should he really be
.... third Earl ?
Comments?
Thanks
Will Johnson
writes:
<< Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter, and
Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300 marks
at
the Easter next after. >>
I had no idea what I'd stumbled into here I think.
I tried to find "Edward Salisbury" on Leo's web site and hit nothing. When I
should have hit something like
Edward, Earl of Salisbury. I couldn't quite figure out who this was and why
I couldn't find him, because I think Leo done a great job in entering all the
higher nobility.
So I meandered around a bit and discovered that THIS is the *brother* of the
prevoius Earl
William, Earl of Salisbury DIED 30 Jan 1343/4. The above document is dated
five months later.
So .... his brother took his title of Earl since the eldest son William was
only 15 at the time ?
Leo's call's the son William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury. But should he really be
.... third Earl ?
Comments?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had
Dear Will,
I hope you realise that this Joan de Broase is on a very interesting
genealogical cross road?
She is a descendant of Llywelyn Fawr of Wales, Magna Carta Surety Richard de
Clare, King Henry I of England, King Henri I of France, Brian Boru, Lady
Godiva, Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror and Charlemagne and others.
She is also an ancestor of Brom Nichol Jr., John Ravilious, Tony Hoskins and
John Steele Gordon. She also has quite a few Gateway Ancestors for
descendants
Dr.Richard Palgrave, William Farrar, Rev. William Skepper, Mary Palgrave,
Sarah Palgrave, Elizabeth Palgrave, Joseph Claypoole, Richard Bellingham,
Afra Harleston, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Rodes, Hon.
Robert Monckton and, no doubt, more.
Leo
--- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:56 PM
Subject: re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had a
child 1304
I hope you realise that this Joan de Broase is on a very interesting
genealogical cross road?
She is a descendant of Llywelyn Fawr of Wales, Magna Carta Surety Richard de
Clare, King Henry I of England, King Henri I of France, Brian Boru, Lady
Godiva, Alfred the Great, William the Conqueror and Charlemagne and others.
She is also an ancestor of Brom Nichol Jr., John Ravilious, Tony Hoskins and
John Steele Gordon. She also has quite a few Gateway Ancestors for
descendants
Dr.Richard Palgrave, William Farrar, Rev. William Skepper, Mary Palgrave,
Sarah Palgrave, Elizabeth Palgrave, Joseph Claypoole, Richard Bellingham,
Afra Harleston, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Charles Rodes, Hon.
Robert Monckton and, no doubt, more.
Leo
--- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:56 PM
Subject: re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had a
child 1304
Whilst meandering about in the A2A reader, I chanced upon records of the
Bohun family of Midhurst. Comparing what I can determine with what Leo
has in
his excellent database here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 8&tree=LEO
we see that Joan of Braose was daughter of William and Agnes
and she married James of Bohun who b 3 Feb 1280/1 and d bef 30 May 1306
This Joan had a sister given at Leo's as "Aliva" but here in the A2A as
"Aline"
I think we already beat the horse to death on whether "Aliva" and "Aline"
are
the same name....
At any rate, here I present a son to this couple, not mentioned in Leo's
database.
Will Johnson
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Reference Code: COWDRAY
The Cowdray Archives
Creation dates: c 1200-1922
Creator(s): Browne family of Cowdray Park, Viscounts Montague
Held at: West Sussex Record Office
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 33
Deposition, as proof of age, that John, s. of James de Bohun, was born at
the
manor of 'Thadeham' [Todham in Easebourne] and baptized there 'on the
third
day after the feast of St. Martin in the Winter in the year A.D. 1304',
1323
[Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 6, p. 263].
Creation dates: 1323
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 34
Finding by inquisition that Aline, late wife of John de Moubray, and John
de
Bohoun [sic], son and heir of Joan late wife of James de Bohun, are the
next
heirs of William de Brewosa alias Brewose, and are of full age, 1326
[Calendar
of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 6, p. 435].
Creation dates: 1326
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had
In a message dated 8/8/05 9:47:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< I hope you realise that this Joan de Broase is on a very interesting
genealogical cross road? >>
And she evidently has descendents on this new line (through her new son John)
at least into the 16th century, where the main manor was dispossessed into
another family. I haven't quite figured out who all the actors are yet, but I'm
still sorting them out.
Will Johnson
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< I hope you realise that this Joan de Broase is on a very interesting
genealogical cross road? >>
And she evidently has descendents on this new line (through her new son John)
at least into the 16th century, where the main manor was dispossessed into
another family. I haven't quite figured out who all the actors are yet, but I'm
still sorting them out.
Will Johnson
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Dear Will,
Two things worry me in your message below.
1.Searching on my website can be fine tuned. If you go to Name Search,
there is a list of key words, one is title, there you change _starts with_
to _contains_
then you enter Salisbury and you get 43 Earls, Countesses, Bishops and so
on.
2.You will not find Edward there because he was not Earl of Salisbury.
Edward was a Baron Montagu (of a later creation) he died in 1361 was married
to Alice of Norfolk and had several children but only one daughter had
children in turn.
I am glad you make me look things up as I see that it looks as though Edward
is older than William (but he isn't) and there are several siblings missing.
By the end of this week, I hope, Genealogics will be updated but the details
I am now going to add won't show up, they will appear the next time.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Two things worry me in your message below.
1.Searching on my website can be fine tuned. If you go to Name Search,
there is a list of key words, one is title, there you change _starts with_
to _contains_
then you enter Salisbury and you get 43 Earls, Countesses, Bishops and so
on.
2.You will not find Edward there because he was not Earl of Salisbury.
Edward was a Baron Montagu (of a later creation) he died in 1361 was married
to Alice of Norfolk and had several children but only one daughter had
children in turn.
I am glad you make me look things up as I see that it looks as though Edward
is older than William (but he isn't) and there are several siblings missing.
By the end of this week, I hope, Genealogics will be updated but the details
I am now going to add won't show up, they will appear the next time.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 9:06:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir
James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and
the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter, and
Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300
marks
at
the Easter next after.
I had no idea what I'd stumbled into here I think.
I tried to find "Edward Salisbury" on Leo's web site and hit nothing.
When I
should have hit something like
Edward, Earl of Salisbury. I couldn't quite figure out who this was and
why
I couldn't find him, because I think Leo done a great job in entering all
the
higher nobility.
So I meandered around a bit and discovered that THIS is the *brother* of
the
prevoius Earl
William, Earl of Salisbury DIED 30 Jan 1343/4. The above document is
dated
five months later.
So .... his brother took his title of Earl since the eldest son William
was
only 15 at the time ?
Leo's call's the son William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury. But should he really
be
... third Earl ?
Comments?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 10:14:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< 2.You will not find Edward there because he was not Earl of Salisbury.
Edward was a Baron Montagu (of a later creation) he died in 1361 was married
to Alice of Norfolk and had several children but only one daughter had
children in turn. >>
Leo you are not following my point. In the document he is CALLED Earl of
Salisbury and this is after his brother's death.
This primary document should raise a question as to whether or not, he
really was Earl of Salisbury after his brother's death. Or did brothers just
willy-nilly seize the titles of their recently deceased siblings?
At any rate, he did call himself Earl, whether CP knows this or not
That's what I was pointing out.
Will Johnson
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< 2.You will not find Edward there because he was not Earl of Salisbury.
Edward was a Baron Montagu (of a later creation) he died in 1361 was married
to Alice of Norfolk and had several children but only one daughter had
children in turn. >>
Leo you are not following my point. In the document he is CALLED Earl of
Salisbury and this is after his brother's death.
This primary document should raise a question as to whether or not, he
really was Earl of Salisbury after his brother's death. Or did brothers just
willy-nilly seize the titles of their recently deceased siblings?
At any rate, he did call himself Earl, whether CP knows this or not
That's what I was pointing out.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had
In a message dated 8/8/05 10:15:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Have I missed something? I only have this new son, no wife for him as yet
or children.
Can you help?
Leo >>
You should have another message where I identified that
1) John of Bohun, was son of James of Bohun and Joan of Braose, and (1) died
1367/8.
2) (1)'s wife Cecily was married before 1351, and she died 13 Aug 1381
3) In (2')s IPM it names her "s and heir" John of Bohun and he was to be
seized of the property immediately so evidently was already in his majority.
However, the lands of Easebourne and Midhurt descendend in this same family
all the way through to Mary of Bohun wife to David Owen who we've spoken of
recently.
This is the method by which David Owen was in control of Essebourne when he
made his 1529/30 will. Or at least it's the method presumed by the extractor
of the records of the Bohuns of Midhurst in the A2A catalogue.
However there seems to be a gap between John of Bohun, Mary's father who was
certainly born before 1455 and John of Bohun, son of John and Cecily (she d
1381).
I don't think these two John's are the same person, but possibly the later
one is the grandson of the earlier one. I just haven't been able to connect
them with primary documents yet. It's barely possible they were the same person,
we just have bad dates for Mary and her father John at present.
For some reason, I have Mary's paternal grandfather as Humphrey of Bohun who
d bef 1468. I did not back this up with a document, so I'm not sure where I
got it. Sometimes I make sketchy notes and then go back and fill them in, but
this family is particularly annoying because there are a few stray documents
that do not seem to be about *them* at all mixed into their records.
Will Johnson
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< Have I missed something? I only have this new son, no wife for him as yet
or children.
Can you help?
Leo >>
You should have another message where I identified that
1) John of Bohun, was son of James of Bohun and Joan of Braose, and (1) died
1367/8.
2) (1)'s wife Cecily was married before 1351, and she died 13 Aug 1381
3) In (2')s IPM it names her "s and heir" John of Bohun and he was to be
seized of the property immediately so evidently was already in his majority.
However, the lands of Easebourne and Midhurt descendend in this same family
all the way through to Mary of Bohun wife to David Owen who we've spoken of
recently.
This is the method by which David Owen was in control of Essebourne when he
made his 1529/30 will. Or at least it's the method presumed by the extractor
of the records of the Bohuns of Midhurst in the A2A catalogue.
However there seems to be a gap between John of Bohun, Mary's father who was
certainly born before 1455 and John of Bohun, son of John and Cecily (she d
1381).
I don't think these two John's are the same person, but possibly the later
one is the grandson of the earlier one. I just haven't been able to connect
them with primary documents yet. It's barely possible they were the same person,
we just have bad dates for Mary and her father John at present.
For some reason, I have Mary's paternal grandfather as Humphrey of Bohun who
d bef 1468. I did not back this up with a document, so I'm not sure where I
got it. Sometimes I make sketchy notes and then go back and fill them in, but
this family is particularly annoying because there are a few stray documents
that do not seem to be about *them* at all mixed into their records.
Will Johnson
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Confusion? This is a reply to your message indicating I was reading your
message wrongly.
<snip>
so the above Earl has to be his son William de Montagu, 2nd Earl of
Salisbury.
Audrey she is daughter of _Edward de Mountagu_ it doesn't say Earl of
Salisbury. As the Earl was his nephew the Earl may well have been involved.
Sadly, Audrey died unmarried (apparently) between June 1349 and February
1359. The son Edward died also unmarried in the same period (according to
Cahiers de Saint Louis). According to CP Volume IX page 85 Father Edward had
another son called Edward, who succeeded to the title being seven weeks old
and died three months later.
Hope this answers the Earl of Salisbury problem?
Leo
message wrongly.
<snip>
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir
James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
-------this was in 1343/4 after the death of the 1st Earl of Salisbury, and
so the above Earl has to be his son William de Montagu, 2nd Earl of
Salisbury.
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and
the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter, and
Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300
marks
at
the Easter next after.
--------------the agreement is for a marriage between John Mowbray and
Audrey she is daughter of _Edward de Mountagu_ it doesn't say Earl of
Salisbury. As the Earl was his nephew the Earl may well have been involved.
Sadly, Audrey died unmarried (apparently) between June 1349 and February
1359. The son Edward died also unmarried in the same period (according to
Cahiers de Saint Louis). According to CP Volume IX page 85 Father Edward had
another son called Edward, who succeeded to the title being seven weeks old
and died three months later.
Hope this answers the Earl of Salisbury problem?
Leo
I had no idea what I'd stumbled into here I think.
I tried to find "Edward Salisbury" on Leo's web site and hit nothing.
When I
should have hit something like
Edward, Earl of Salisbury. I couldn't quite figure out who this was and
why
I couldn't find him, because I think Leo done a great job in entering all
the
higher nobility.
So I meandered around a bit and discovered that THIS is the *brother* of
the
prevoius Earl
William, Earl of Salisbury DIED 30 Jan 1343/4. The above document is
dated
five months later.
So .... his brother took his title of Earl since the eldest son William
was
only 15 at the time ?
Leo's call's the son William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury. But should he really
be
... third Earl ?
Comments?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 11:07:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< > John Lord Mowbray and the EARL OF SALISBURY (by his general attorneys Sir
Leo look again, it does say Earl of Salisbury
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< > John Lord Mowbray and the EARL OF SALISBURY (by his general attorneys Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir
James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
Leo look again, it does say Earl of Salisbury
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
See below........
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Yes? In the description of who marries who Edward de Montagu is named
correctly Edward de Montagu. As they were a close family the Earl, the
nephew, was involved. In 1343/4 the nephew had already been through his own
marriage (before 10 Feb ruary 1341) with the 'fair Maid of Kent' a marriage
later dissolved and in 1348 was among the founding knights of the Garter. By
the sound not someone to be pushed aside, even temporarily.
No where does that record imply that the earl and Edward de Montagu is one
and the same person. Hope you agree?
Leo
>
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 11:07:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
John Lord Mowbray and the EARL OF SALISBURY (by his general attorneys
Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir
James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
Leo look again, it does say Earl of Salisbury
Yes? In the description of who marries who Edward de Montagu is named
correctly Edward de Montagu. As they were a close family the Earl, the
nephew, was involved. In 1343/4 the nephew had already been through his own
marriage (before 10 Feb ruary 1341) with the 'fair Maid of Kent' a marriage
later dissolved and in 1348 was among the founding knights of the Garter. By
the sound not someone to be pushed aside, even temporarily.
No where does that record imply that the earl and Edward de Montagu is one
and the same person. Hope you agree?
Leo
>
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Dear Will,
You think you have stumbled across something interesting. I think I have
also
By looking things up, what did I find?
There were two brothers, William de Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury and
Edward de Montagu, 1st Baron Montagu.
Edward married (1) Alice of Norfolk, daughter of Thomas of Brotherton son of
King Edward I ; Edward married (2) Joane
Alice of Norfolk married Edward Montagu about 16 January 1339. BUT before 3
February 1333 she gave birth to a son called William, fathered by William de
Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury............................this is in Cahiers
de Saint Louis page 960.
This chapter of the Cahiers has a short list of sources, maybe someone can
find where this information came from :
Burke's Guide to the Royal Family
The Complete Peerage
Burke's Extinct Peerage
Dictionary of National Biography
C. W. Segrave "The Segrave Family 1066-1935" published in 1936
Miscellania Heraldica et Genealogica, 5th series, vol IX pp 162-165.
Hope someone can help.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
You think you have stumbled across something interesting. I think I have
also
By looking things up, what did I find?
There were two brothers, William de Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury and
Edward de Montagu, 1st Baron Montagu.
Edward married (1) Alice of Norfolk, daughter of Thomas of Brotherton son of
King Edward I ; Edward married (2) Joane
Alice of Norfolk married Edward Montagu about 16 January 1339. BUT before 3
February 1333 she gave birth to a son called William, fathered by William de
Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury............................this is in Cahiers
de Saint Louis page 960.
This chapter of the Cahiers has a short list of sources, maybe someone can
find where this information came from :
Burke's Guide to the Royal Family
The Complete Peerage
Burke's Extinct Peerage
Dictionary of National Biography
C. W. Segrave "The Segrave Family 1066-1935" published in 1936
Miscellania Heraldica et Genealogica, 5th series, vol IX pp 162-165.
Hope someone can help.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 9:06:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir
James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and
the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter, and
Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300
marks
at
the Easter next after.
I had no idea what I'd stumbled into here I think.
I tried to find "Edward Salisbury" on Leo's web site and hit nothing.
When I
should have hit something like
Edward, Earl of Salisbury. I couldn't quite figure out who this was and
why
I couldn't find him, because I think Leo done a great job in entering all
the
higher nobility.
So I meandered around a bit and discovered that THIS is the *brother* of
the
prevoius Earl
William, Earl of Salisbury DIED 30 Jan 1343/4. The above document is
dated
five months later.
So .... his brother took his title of Earl since the eldest son William
was
only 15 at the time ?
Leo's call's the son William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury. But should he really
be
... third Earl ?
Comments?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Will Johnson wrote:
This does look like an interesting find, but regarding the identity of the
Earl of Salisbury, I think it does have to be Earl William, Edward's
brother, who is party to the contract. The contract is dated 10 May 17 Edw.
III [1343], and William did not die until 30 January 1343/4, according to CP
xi 388.
Chris Phillips
Leo you are not following my point. In the document he is CALLED Earl of
Salisbury and this is after his brother's death.
This does look like an interesting find, but regarding the identity of the
Earl of Salisbury, I think it does have to be Earl William, Edward's
brother, who is party to the contract. The contract is dated 10 May 17 Edw.
III [1343], and William did not die until 30 January 1343/4, according to CP
xi 388.
Chris Phillips
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Leo van de Pas wrote:
Alice had been contracted in marriage in 1333 to William, _son_ of William,
1st Earl of Salisbury (CP xi 389 note k). CP does not identify the mother of
William, the son of the younger William, who married twice (to Joan,
Countess of Kent, and Elizabeth Mohun). Alice's chronology is a bit
problematic (see a post by Brad Verity 30 September 2003), but it seems
clear she couldn't have borne a child as early as 1333. CP ix 84 dates her
marriage to Edward de Montagu before 29 August 1338.
Chris Phillips
There were two brothers, William de Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury and
Edward de Montagu, 1st Baron Montagu.
Edward married (1) Alice of Norfolk, daughter of Thomas of Brotherton son
of
King Edward I ; Edward married (2) Joane
Alice of Norfolk married Edward Montagu about 16 January 1339. BUT before
3
February 1333 she gave birth to a son called William, fathered by William
de
Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury............................this is in
Cahiers
de Saint Louis page 960.
Alice had been contracted in marriage in 1333 to William, _son_ of William,
1st Earl of Salisbury (CP xi 389 note k). CP does not identify the mother of
William, the son of the younger William, who married twice (to Joan,
Countess of Kent, and Elizabeth Mohun). Alice's chronology is a bit
problematic (see a post by Brad Verity 30 September 2003), but it seems
clear she couldn't have borne a child as early as 1333. CP ix 84 dates her
marriage to Edward de Montagu before 29 August 1338.
Chris Phillips
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
I agree it looks beyond possible. Even Cahiers de St.louis seem to make her
too young.
Her brother was born about 1319, her (older) sister about 1320, this would
make Alice about 1321 at the earlierst and about twelve when supposedly
giving birth. I think I'd better forget about that one.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
too young.
Her brother was born about 1319, her (older) sister about 1320, this would
make Alice about 1321 at the earlierst and about twelve when supposedly
giving birth. I think I'd better forget about that one.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Leo van de Pas wrote:
There were two brothers, William de Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury and
Edward de Montagu, 1st Baron Montagu.
Edward married (1) Alice of Norfolk, daughter of Thomas of Brotherton son
of
King Edward I ; Edward married (2) Joane
Alice of Norfolk married Edward Montagu about 16 January 1339. BUT before
3
February 1333 she gave birth to a son called William, fathered by William
de
Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury............................this is in
Cahiers
de Saint Louis page 960.
Alice had been contracted in marriage in 1333 to William, _son_ of
William,
1st Earl of Salisbury (CP xi 389 note k). CP does not identify the mother
of
William, the son of the younger William, who married twice (to Joan,
Countess of Kent, and Elizabeth Mohun). Alice's chronology is a bit
problematic (see a post by Brad Verity 30 September 2003), but it seems
clear she couldn't have borne a child as early as 1333. CP ix 84 dates her
marriage to Edward de Montagu before 29 August 1338.
Chris Phillips
-
Katheryn_Swynford
-
Gjest
Re: journal of the institute of heraldic and genealogical st
Hi,
Look at:
http://www.family-history.org/
The journal is called Family History.
Charlie McNett
Hi,
Does anyone know of a library holding this title?
journal of the institute of heraldic and genealogical studies
My university's library not only does not have it, but states that it
cannot be found via interlibrary loan ("No library is able to supply
this item").
Kindest thanks,
Judy
>"www.katherineswynford.net
Look at:
http://www.family-history.org/
The journal is called Family History.
Charlie McNett
"In a message dated 8/9/2005 1:41:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com writes:
Hi,
Does anyone know of a library holding this title?
journal of the institute of heraldic and genealogical studies
My university's library not only does not have it, but states that it
cannot be found via interlibrary loan ("No library is able to supply
this item").
Kindest thanks,
Judy
>"www.katherineswynford.net
-
Gjest
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/9/05 12:56:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
<< Alice had been contracted in marriage in 1333 to William, _son_ of William,
1st Earl of Salisbury (CP xi 389 note k). CP does not identify the mother of
William, the son of the younger William, who married twice (to Joan,
Countess of Kent, and Elizabeth Mohun). Alice's chronology is a bit
problematic (see a post by Brad Verity 30 September 2003), but it seems
clear she couldn't have borne a child as early as 1333. CP ix 84 dates her
marriage to Edward de Montagu before 29 August 1338. >>
Thank you Chris for pointing out my mistake. I was evidently sleepy and not
realizing that 30 Jan 1343/4 was AFTER 10 May 1343 and so of course William,
1st Earl was still living at the time of the marriage contracts.
There appears to be some confusion between the wives of William and his
brother Edward. Catherine of Grandison is called "Aka Alice or Alys". I don't
think this is true, my hunch is that they got the wives mixed up.
The son attributed to "Alice" may actually be Catherine's son who later was
2nd Earl of Salisbury. At any rate, the primary documents should be posted and
teased apart so we can see what the truth is.
Will Johnson
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:
<< Alice had been contracted in marriage in 1333 to William, _son_ of William,
1st Earl of Salisbury (CP xi 389 note k). CP does not identify the mother of
William, the son of the younger William, who married twice (to Joan,
Countess of Kent, and Elizabeth Mohun). Alice's chronology is a bit
problematic (see a post by Brad Verity 30 September 2003), but it seems
clear she couldn't have borne a child as early as 1333. CP ix 84 dates her
marriage to Edward de Montagu before 29 August 1338. >>
Thank you Chris for pointing out my mistake. I was evidently sleepy and not
realizing that 30 Jan 1343/4 was AFTER 10 May 1343 and so of course William,
1st Earl was still living at the time of the marriage contracts.
There appears to be some confusion between the wives of William and his
brother Edward. Catherine of Grandison is called "Aka Alice or Alys". I don't
think this is true, my hunch is that they got the wives mixed up.
The son attributed to "Alice" may actually be Catherine's son who later was
2nd Earl of Salisbury. At any rate, the primary documents should be posted and
teased apart so we can see what the truth is.
Will Johnson
-
Rick Eaton
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Leo:
I thought that the Earl of Salisbury and the rest of that family spelled
their names as follows: Montacute, and not montagu. Am I incorrect?
Rick
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
I thought that the Earl of Salisbury and the rest of that family spelled
their names as follows: Montacute, and not montagu. Am I incorrect?
Rick
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
Dear Will,
You think you have stumbled across something interesting. I think I have
also
By looking things up, what did I find?
There were two brothers, William de Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury and
Edward de Montagu, 1st Baron Montagu.
Edward married (1) Alice of Norfolk, daughter of Thomas of Brotherton son of
King Edward I ; Edward married (2) Joane
Alice of Norfolk married Edward Montagu about 16 January 1339. BUT before 3
February 1333 she gave birth to a son called William, fathered by William de
Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury............................this is in Cahiers
de Saint Louis page 960.
This chapter of the Cahiers has a short list of sources, maybe someone can
find where this information came from :
Burke's Guide to the Royal Family
The Complete Peerage
Burke's Extinct Peerage
Dictionary of National Biography
C. W. Segrave "The Segrave Family 1066-1935" published in 1936
Miscellania Heraldica et Genealogica, 5th series, vol IX pp 162-165.
Hope someone can help.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 9:06:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir
James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and
the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter, and
Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300
marks
at
the Easter next after.
I had no idea what I'd stumbled into here I think.
I tried to find "Edward Salisbury" on Leo's web site and hit nothing.
When I
should have hit something like
Edward, Earl of Salisbury. I couldn't quite figure out who this was and
why
I couldn't find him, because I think Leo done a great job in entering all
the
higher nobility.
So I meandered around a bit and discovered that THIS is the *brother* of
the
prevoius Earl
William, Earl of Salisbury DIED 30 Jan 1343/4. The above document is
dated
five months later.
So .... his brother took his title of Earl since the eldest son William
was
only 15 at the time ?
Leo's call's the son William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury. But should he really
be
... third Earl ?
Comments?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
I have encountered both spellings , de Montacute in Burke's Extinct Peerage
but CP gives de Montagu, and I settled for CP.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Eaton" <eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>;
<GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
but CP gives de Montagu, and I settled for CP.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Eaton" <eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>;
<GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Leo:
I thought that the Earl of Salisbury and the rest of that family spelled
their names as follows: Montacute, and not montagu. Am I incorrect?
Rick
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
Dear Will,
You think you have stumbled across something interesting. I think I have
also
By looking things up, what did I find?
There were two brothers, William de Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury and
Edward de Montagu, 1st Baron Montagu.
Edward married (1) Alice of Norfolk, daughter of Thomas of Brotherton son
of
King Edward I ; Edward married (2) Joane
Alice of Norfolk married Edward Montagu about 16 January 1339. BUT before
3
February 1333 she gave birth to a son called William, fathered by William
de
Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury............................this is in
Cahiers
de Saint Louis page 960.
This chapter of the Cahiers has a short list of sources, maybe someone
can
find where this information came from :
Burke's Guide to the Royal Family
The Complete Peerage
Burke's Extinct Peerage
Dictionary of National Biography
C. W. Segrave "The Segrave Family 1066-1935" published in 1936
Miscellania Heraldica et Genealogica, 5th series, vol IX pp 162-165.
Hope someone can help.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 9:06:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys
Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir
James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and
the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter,
and
Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300
marks
at
the Easter next after.
I had no idea what I'd stumbled into here I think.
I tried to find "Edward Salisbury" on Leo's web site and hit nothing.
When I
should have hit something like
Edward, Earl of Salisbury. I couldn't quite figure out who this was and
why
I couldn't find him, because I think Leo done a great job in entering
all
the
higher nobility.
So I meandered around a bit and discovered that THIS is the *brother* of
the
prevoius Earl
William, Earl of Salisbury DIED 30 Jan 1343/4. The above document is
dated
five months later.
So .... his brother took his title of Earl since the eldest son William
was
only 15 at the time ?
Leo's call's the son William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury. But should he
really
be
... third Earl ?
Comments?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Rick Eaton
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Just for the record, then, I believe that -- during the period under
discussion, the 14th century, it was Montacute and the alternate spelling
came into use later.
It is very much like my own Eytons and Eatons.
Best,
Rick
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
discussion, the 14th century, it was Montacute and the alternate spelling
came into use later.
It is very much like my own Eytons and Eatons.
Best,
Rick
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
I have encountered both spellings , de Montacute in Burke's Extinct Peerage
but CP gives de Montagu, and I settled for CP.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Eaton" <eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>;
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Leo:
I thought that the Earl of Salisbury and the rest of that family spelled
their names as follows: Montacute, and not montagu. Am I incorrect?
Rick
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
Dear Will,
You think you have stumbled across something interesting. I think I have
also
By looking things up, what did I find?
There were two brothers, William de Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury and
Edward de Montagu, 1st Baron Montagu.
Edward married (1) Alice of Norfolk, daughter of Thomas of Brotherton son
of
King Edward I ; Edward married (2) Joane
Alice of Norfolk married Edward Montagu about 16 January 1339. BUT before
3
February 1333 she gave birth to a son called William, fathered by William
de
Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury............................this is in
Cahiers
de Saint Louis page 960.
This chapter of the Cahiers has a short list of sources, maybe someone
can
find where this information came from :
Burke's Guide to the Royal Family
The Complete Peerage
Burke's Extinct Peerage
Dictionary of National Biography
C. W. Segrave "The Segrave Family 1066-1935" published in 1936
Miscellania Heraldica et Genealogica, 5th series, vol IX pp 162-165.
Hope someone can help.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 9:06:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys
Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir
James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu, and
the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter,
and
Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300
marks
at
the Easter next after.
I had no idea what I'd stumbled into here I think.
I tried to find "Edward Salisbury" on Leo's web site and hit nothing.
When I
should have hit something like
Edward, Earl of Salisbury. I couldn't quite figure out who this was and
why
I couldn't find him, because I think Leo done a great job in entering
all
the
higher nobility.
So I meandered around a bit and discovered that THIS is the *brother* of
the
prevoius Earl
William, Earl of Salisbury DIED 30 Jan 1343/4. The above document is
dated
five months later.
So .... his brother took his title of Earl since the eldest son William
was
only 15 at the time ?
Leo's call's the son William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury. But should he
really
be
... third Earl ?
Comments?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Dear Rick,
Now you put me in an awkward position. I do not doubt you are correct but is
there a way you can establish this situation? I like to think that CP is
very much a touching stone for much of the information. You can twist my arm
and I gladly change the entries in my data base. I believe we should try to
have information the people concerned would be happy with.
There is good news and bad
I hope that genealogics is going to be
updated in the next few days, that is the good news. The bad is that if I
change these entries they will not show up until the next update.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Eaton" <eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Now you put me in an awkward position. I do not doubt you are correct but is
there a way you can establish this situation? I like to think that CP is
very much a touching stone for much of the information. You can twist my arm
and I gladly change the entries in my data base. I believe we should try to
have information the people concerned would be happy with.
There is good news and bad
updated in the next few days, that is the good news. The bad is that if I
change these entries they will not show up until the next update.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Eaton" <eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Just for the record, then, I believe that -- during the period under
discussion, the 14th century, it was Montacute and the alternate spelling
came into use later.
It is very much like my own Eytons and Eatons.
Best,
Rick
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
I have encountered both spellings , de Montacute in Burke's Extinct
Peerage
but CP gives de Montagu, and I settled for CP.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Eaton" <eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>;
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
Leo:
I thought that the Earl of Salisbury and the rest of that family spelled
their names as follows: Montacute, and not montagu. Am I incorrect?
Rick
"Rick Eaton" eaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
Dear Will,
You think you have stumbled across something interesting. I think I
have
also
By looking things up, what did I find?
There were two brothers, William de Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury and
Edward de Montagu, 1st Baron Montagu.
Edward married (1) Alice of Norfolk, daughter of Thomas of Brotherton
son
of
King Edward I ; Edward married (2) Joane
Alice of Norfolk married Edward Montagu about 16 January 1339. BUT
before
3
February 1333 she gave birth to a son called William, fathered by
William
de
Montagu, 1st Earl of Salisbury............................this is in
Cahiers
de Saint Louis page 960.
This chapter of the Cahiers has a short list of sources, maybe someone
can
find where this information came from :
Burke's Guide to the Royal Family
The Complete Peerage
Burke's Extinct Peerage
Dictionary of National Biography
C. W. Segrave "The Segrave Family 1066-1935" published in 1936
Miscellania Heraldica et Genealogica, 5th series, vol IX pp 162-165.
Hope someone can help.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - John, 4th Lord Mowbray
In a message dated 8/8/05 9:06:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
Scope and Content
John Lord Mowbray and the earl of Salisbury (by his general attorneys
Sir
Nicholas de la Beche, Sir John de Wynkefeld, Sir Robert de Burton, Sir
James
de
Beauford). 10 May 17 Edw. III
An agreement has been made between John and the earl for the marriage
of
John, John's eldest son, and Audrey, daughter of Edward de Mountagu,
and
the
marriage of Edward, Edward's eldest son, and Blanche, John's daughter,
and
Edward
will pay John 500 marks, 200 marks at the Michaelmas following and 300
marks
at
the Easter next after.
I had no idea what I'd stumbled into here I think.
I tried to find "Edward Salisbury" on Leo's web site and hit nothing.
When I
should have hit something like
Edward, Earl of Salisbury. I couldn't quite figure out who this was
and
why
I couldn't find him, because I think Leo done a great job in entering
all
the
higher nobility.
So I meandered around a bit and discovered that THIS is the *brother*
of
the
prevoius Earl
William, Earl of Salisbury DIED 30 Jan 1343/4. The above document is
dated
five months later.
So .... his brother took his title of Earl since the eldest son
William
was
only 15 at the time ?
Leo's call's the son William, 2nd Earl of Salisbury. But should he
really
be
... third Earl ?
Comments?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Update to genealogics Lettice FitzGerald, Baroness Offal
In my usual meanderings around I found a tidbit on this woman.
She is said to have been born 1588 due to her death 1 Dec 1658 AT Coleshill
"aged about seventy, and was buried with her husband".
She married abt 1608 to Robert Digby of Coleshill, Warwickshire.
She was the mother of ten children.
These facts, have been gleaned from her entry in DNB which is here
http://images.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=vi ... 5.6.78&id=
0991&qf=qs&zl=4
if you have the proper subscription to the British records collection at
ancestry.
Will Johnson
She is said to have been born 1588 due to her death 1 Dec 1658 AT Coleshill
"aged about seventy, and was buried with her husband".
She married abt 1608 to Robert Digby of Coleshill, Warwickshire.
She was the mother of ten children.
These facts, have been gleaned from her entry in DNB which is here
http://images.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=vi ... 5.6.78&id=
0991&qf=qs&zl=4
if you have the proper subscription to the British records collection at
ancestry.
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: Bohun of Midhurst [was: Genealogics update - James of Bo
There is a very extensive article on the Bohuns of Midhurst by the noted
genealogist G. W. Watson in "The Genealogist [new series]" vol. 28 in two
parts, pp. 1-16 and 114-123 with a few addenda at 173-4. It cites numerous
primary sources and includes a pedigree chart which helps to clarify things.
Several generations of the family are also covered in the recently published
Magna Carta Ancestry.
In summary, the generations that lead to the wife of Sir David Owen are as
follows, from this article:
James de Bohun (d. 1306); m. (her 1st) Joan de Braose [or Brewse]
Sir John de Bohun (1301-1367); m. (2) Cicely Filliol (d. 1381)
Sir John Bohun (1362/3-1432/3); m. (1) Alice NN
Sir Humphrey Bohun (1418-1468); m. Margaret Estfield
Mary Bohun; m. (his 1st) Sir David Owen
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had a
child 1304
genealogist G. W. Watson in "The Genealogist [new series]" vol. 28 in two
parts, pp. 1-16 and 114-123 with a few addenda at 173-4. It cites numerous
primary sources and includes a pedigree chart which helps to clarify things.
Several generations of the family are also covered in the recently published
Magna Carta Ancestry.
In summary, the generations that lead to the wife of Sir David Owen are as
follows, from this article:
James de Bohun (d. 1306); m. (her 1st) Joan de Braose [or Brewse]
Sir John de Bohun (1301-1367); m. (2) Cicely Filliol (d. 1381)
Sir John Bohun (1362/3-1432/3); m. (1) Alice NN
Sir Humphrey Bohun (1418-1468); m. Margaret Estfield
Mary Bohun; m. (his 1st) Sir David Owen
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: Genealogics update - James of Bohun / Joan of Braose had a
child 1304
In a message dated 8/8/05 10:15:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
Have I missed something? I only have this new son, no wife for him as
yet
or children.
Can you help?
Leo
You should have another message where I identified that
1) John of Bohun, was son of James of Bohun and Joan of Braose, and (1)
died
1367/8.
2) (1)'s wife Cecily was married before 1351, and she died 13 Aug 1381
3) In (2')s IPM it names her "s and heir" John of Bohun and he was to be
seized of the property immediately so evidently was already in his
majority.
However, the lands of Easebourne and Midhurt descendend in this same
family
all the way through to Mary of Bohun wife to David Owen who we've spoken
of
recently.
This is the method by which David Owen was in control of Essebourne when
he
made his 1529/30 will. Or at least it's the method presumed by the
extractor
of the records of the Bohuns of Midhurst in the A2A catalogue.
However there seems to be a gap between John of Bohun, Mary's father who
was
certainly born before 1455 and John of Bohun, son of John and Cecily (she
d
1381).
I don't think these two John's are the same person, but possibly the later
one is the grandson of the earlier one. I just haven't been able to
connect
them with primary documents yet. It's barely possible they were the same
person,
we just have bad dates for Mary and her father John at present.
For some reason, I have Mary's paternal grandfather as Humphrey of Bohun
who
d bef 1468. I did not back this up with a document, so I'm not sure where
I
got it. Sometimes I make sketchy notes and then go back and fill them in,
but
this family is particularly annoying because there are a few stray
documents
that do not seem to be about *them* at all mixed into their records.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Fw: Bohun of Midhurst [was: Genealogics update - James o
In a message dated 8/10/05 12:54:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< This line to the wife of Sir David Owen seems to be well established by a
very reputable genealogist - I'm not sure why the adjective "purported" would
be used here. >>
Reputable genealogists make mistakes every day.
In my mind, until all the sources are laid bare, every line is "purported".
We've had dozens if not hundreds of corrections over the past five years.
If the secondary source, is not giving other, more fundamental sources, for
their statements, then they are presenting new facts which may not be true.
For all we know some of the names are gleaned from spurious visitations.
I am not suggesting that Mary of Bohun, wife of Sir David Owen, does *not* in
fact descend from this James of Bohun and his wife Joan of Braose. I believe
this is true, merely from the fact that the Cowdray manor descends to her,
although why it should descend *only* to her still remains to be fleshed out.
Mary SOLD the estate and her husband and heirs appear here and there
quitclaiming things to the new owners. All very vague at the moment.
What I'm suggesting is that we do not yet have all the sources to state that
the exact manner in which she is descended, and here presented, is an
unimpeachable "fact". We have only *just* been given the surnames of three of the
wives in this line, and one wife has no surname at all. And no other children
for any of this matches, have been elucidated yet.
So while others may accept this line as a fact, I'm still searching for the
documentation that will support each link. And by that, I mean I prefer to
find primary documents, although that's not always possible, I don't think the
search is over. There are still a few odd documents I can't figure out what
they mean quite yet in this line.
Will Johnson
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< This line to the wife of Sir David Owen seems to be well established by a
very reputable genealogist - I'm not sure why the adjective "purported" would
be used here. >>
Reputable genealogists make mistakes every day.
In my mind, until all the sources are laid bare, every line is "purported".
We've had dozens if not hundreds of corrections over the past five years.
If the secondary source, is not giving other, more fundamental sources, for
their statements, then they are presenting new facts which may not be true.
For all we know some of the names are gleaned from spurious visitations.
I am not suggesting that Mary of Bohun, wife of Sir David Owen, does *not* in
fact descend from this James of Bohun and his wife Joan of Braose. I believe
this is true, merely from the fact that the Cowdray manor descends to her,
although why it should descend *only* to her still remains to be fleshed out.
Mary SOLD the estate and her husband and heirs appear here and there
quitclaiming things to the new owners. All very vague at the moment.
What I'm suggesting is that we do not yet have all the sources to state that
the exact manner in which she is descended, and here presented, is an
unimpeachable "fact". We have only *just* been given the surnames of three of the
wives in this line, and one wife has no surname at all. And no other children
for any of this matches, have been elucidated yet.
So while others may accept this line as a fact, I'm still searching for the
documentation that will support each link. And by that, I mean I prefer to
find primary documents, although that's not always possible, I don't think the
search is over. There are still a few odd documents I can't figure out what
they mean quite yet in this line.
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: Fw: Bohun of Midhurst [was: Genealogics update - James o
Th e Watson article I cited on the Bohuns says that Sir John de Bohun was b.
at Todham and bap. at Easebourne 14 Nov. 1301. It does not, however, give a
source for this date, and it does not mention the document cited below,
although it does mention that he proved his age and was given seizin of his
inheritance by 20 May 1323 (without specifying what that age was).
The article also says that his mother Joan de Braose [or Brewse] was living
(as a widow of her 2nd husband) 8 Dec 1321 and d. before 23 June 1324
(probably sometime before this date, on which Aymar de Valence, Earl of
Pembroke, died, having held the manor of Gressenhall after her death).
This line to the wife of Sir David Owen seems to be well established by a
very reputable genealogist - I'm not sure why the adjective "purported"
would be used here.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Bohun of Midhurst [was: Genealogics update - James of Bohun
/ Joan of...
at Todham and bap. at Easebourne 14 Nov. 1301. It does not, however, give a
source for this date, and it does not mention the document cited below,
although it does mention that he proved his age and was given seizin of his
inheritance by 20 May 1323 (without specifying what that age was).
The article also says that his mother Joan de Braose [or Brewse] was living
(as a widow of her 2nd husband) 8 Dec 1321 and d. before 23 June 1324
(probably sometime before this date, on which Aymar de Valence, Earl of
Pembroke, died, having held the manor of Gressenhall after her death).
This line to the wife of Sir David Owen seems to be well established by a
very reputable genealogist - I'm not sure why the adjective "purported"
would be used here.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Bohun of Midhurst [was: Genealogics update - James of Bohun
/ Joan of...
In a message dated 8/9/05 11:01:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
James de Bohun (d. 1306); m. (her 1st) Joan de Braose [or Brewse]
Sir John de Bohun (1301-1367); m. (2) Cicely Filliol (d. 1381)
Sir John Bohun (1362/3-1432/3); m. (1) Alice NN
Sir Humphrey Bohun (1418-1468); m. Margaret Estfield
John Bohun (d. 1492); m. Anne Arderne
Mary Bohun; m. (his 1st) Sir David Owen
John has supplied this purported line from Mary Bohun, wife of Sir David
Owen, back to
Joan of Braose, daughter of William of Braose, Lord of Bramber and Gower
[d
bef 1 May 1326]
I now present evidence that Joan died before 1326 and probably before 1323
Can someone pinpoint this unusual date for the birthdate of John of Bohun
given below?
( i.e. on the third day after the feast of St. Martin in the Winter of
1304)
Thanks
Will Johnson
--------------------------------------------------------------
Reference Code: COWDRAY
The Cowdray Archives
Creation dates: c 1200-1922
Creator(s): Browne family of Cowdray Park, Viscounts Montague
Held at: West Sussex Record Office
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 33
Deposition, as proof of age, that John, s. of James de Bohun, was born at
the
manor of 'Thadeham' [Todham in Easebourne] and baptized there 'on the
third
day after the feast of St. Martin in the Winter in the year A.D. 1304',
1323
[Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 6, p. 263].
Creation dates: 1323
Reference: COWDRAY/4934/f 34
Finding by inquisition that Aline, late wife of John de Moubray, and John
de
Bohoun [sic], son and heir of Joan late wife of James de Bohun, are the
next
heirs of William de Brewosa alias Brewose, and are of full age, 1326
[Calendar
of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 6, p. 435].
Creation dates: 1326
-
Gjest
Re: Margaret Basset wife of Edmund Stafford
Wednesday, 10 August, 2005
Dear Simon,
There was a bit of confusion in the assignment of Margaret
Basset, wife of Edmund de Stafford, which I believe was cleared up
a while ago on SGM. She was clearly not the daughter of Ralph
Basset (d. 25 Feb 1342/3) and his wife Joan de Grey, but rather
his sister. The origin of the confusion is evidently due to the
work of Sir William Dugdale, who somehow merged [A] the marriage
of Ralph Basset of Drayton (d. 31 Dec 1299) into that of his son
(who did marry Joan de Grey), and also [B] the career of Ralph
(d. 1342) with that of his son [Dugdale, Baronage pp. 379-380].
The following gives a brief descent from Ralph Basset (d. 31
Dec 1299) and his wife Hawise. By the bye, I theorised some time
ago that she [Hawise] was most likely a daughter of Robert de
Vere, Earl of Oxford (d. bef 1297): should anyone have further
evidence on that matter, it would certainly be most welcome.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ralph Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: 31 Dec 1299[1]
Burial: Drayton, co. Stafford
Occ: Lord Basset of Drayton
Father: Ralph Basset (-1265)
Mother: Margaret de Somery (->1293)
of Drayton, co. Stafford and Colston Basset, co. Notts.
2nd (or younger) son, succeeding his brother Roger (d.s.p.) (q.v.)
Held lands of Ralph Basset of Weldon, 1284
Summoned to Parliament from 23 June 1295 by writ directed
'Radulfo Basset de Drayton', held to have become 1st Lord
Basset of Drayton.[1]
had a charter for a market and fair at Colston Basset, co. Notts.
originally granted 3 Sept 1257, by K Henry III to Ralph Basset of
Drayton the younger, 'To be held at the manor' (CChR, 1226–57,
p. 474). Having inspected the charter from K Hen III to Ralph
Basset of Drayton, lately deceased, on 6 Apr 1284, K Edw I granted
Ralph Basset (the original grantee’s son) a weekly market at his
manor on Fri, in lieu of that on Wed (CChR, 1257–1300, p. 272)[2]
Spouse: Hawise[1]
Children: Margaret (-<1336)
Ralph (-1342)
John
1.1 Margaret Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 17 Mar 1336[3]
coheiress (in her issue) of nephew Ralph, Lord Bassett
(d.s.p. 1390)[1]
her maritagium included the manor of Chipping Camden, co. Glocs.
(possibly gift of her grandmother Margaret de Somery):
1) see earlier entries, Roger de Somery and Margaret de Somery;
2) Chipping Camden held by her son Richard, 1360[2]
Spouse: Edmund de Stafford, Lord Stafford
Death: bef 12 Aug 1308[3]
Birth: 17 Jul 1273[3]
Father: Nicholas de Stafford (-ca1287)
Mother: NN de Langley
Marr: bef 1298[3]
Children: Ralph (1301-1372)
Sir Richard (ca1305-)
William
Humphrey
Mary
1.1.1a Ralph de Stafford*
----------------------------------------
Birth: 24 Sep 1301[4]
Death: 31 Aug 1372[1]
Burial: Tonbridge Priory, Kent[5]
Occ: Earl of Stafford
Baron of Stafford
inherited the Castle of Caus, co. Salop & c. as heir of his cousin
John Corbet, Lord Corbet, 1347 (CP Vol III -Corbet, p. 418n)[1]
' RALPH DE STAFFORD, K.G., 2nd Lord Stafford, Baron of Stafford, co.
Stafford, Steward of the King’s Household, Seneschal of Aquitaine, and, in right of
his 2nd wife, of castle and manor of Newport, co. Monmouth, Chipping Ongar,
Stapleford Tawney, and Hersham (in Havering), Essex, Dodington, co. Gloucester,
Stratton Audley, co. Oxford, Gratton, co. Stafford,...'[6]
participated under Edward de Baliol (recognized as rightful King of
Scots by Edward III of England) in invasion of Scotland, 1332
fought at the Battle of Sluys, 23 June 1340
Seneschal of Aquitaine, 23 Feb 1344/5
defended castle of Aiguillon against French forces under Prince John;
fought in the King's Division, Battle of Crecy, Aug 1346[7]
original Knight of the Garter, 23 Apr 1349
summoned to Parliament from 29 Nov 1336 by writs directed
'Radulpho Baroni de Stafford', held thereby to have become
Baron or Lord Stafford[1]
steward of the King's household to King Edward III, 1341:
had grant by royal charter of a fair and market at Tysoe, co.
Warwick from King Edward, 13 May 1341 - 'to be held at the manor'[2]
created Earl of Stafford 5 Mar 1350/51[4]
Spouse: Margaret de Audley [2nd wife]
Birth: abt 1325[1]
Death: 16 Sep 1348[8]
Father: Hugh de Audley, Earl of Gloucester (~1289-1347)
Mother: Margaret de Clare (ca1294-1342)
Marr: bef 6 Jul 1336[4]
Children: Ralph (ca1334-<1347)
Elizabeth (1337-1375)
Beatrice (-1415)
Hugh (~1341-1386)
Joan (-<1397)
Catherine (<1348-<1361)
Thomas
1.1.1b Ralph de Stafford* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Katherine de Hastang [1st wife]
Death: bef 6 Jul 1336[4]
Father: John de Hastang
Mother: Eve
Marr: bef 9 Feb 1327[9]
Children: Margaret
Joan
1.1.2 Sir Richard de Stafford
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1305
knt., of Chipping Camden, co. Glocs.
served under the Black Prince in Languedoc, 1355-1356 (sent to
London, Jan 1355/6) [Sumption, p. 187[10]]
sailed from Plymouth to resupply the Prince in Bordeaux,
(arrived ca 19 Jun 1356) [Sumption p. 223[10]]
Grant of Fair: '(Charter) vfm, George (23 Apr): gr 26 May 1360,
by K Edw III to Richard de Stafford (CChR, 1341-1417). To be held
at the manor.'[2]
1.1.3 William de Stafford
----------------------------------------
1.1.4 Humphrey de Stafford
----------------------------------------
1.1.5 Mary de Stafford
----------------------------------------
1.2 Ralph Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: 25 Feb 1342[1]
Occ: Lord Basset
2nd Lord Basset of Drayton
' In 1329, Ralph Basset of Drayton (apparently the son of the Ralph
Basset in the 1284 charter) was holding the market [at Colston
Basset, co. Notts.]. (QW, pp. 614–15) '[2]
charter for a fair at Olney, co. Bucks. 'gr[anted] 6 May 1316, by
K Edw II to Ralph Basset of Drayton (CChR, 1300–26, p. 306). To
be held at the manor.'[2]
Spouse: Joan de Grey
Death: bef 5 Apr 1353[1]
Father: John de Grey, Lord Grey (<1268-1323)
Mother: Maud de Verdun
Marr: bef 27 Mar 1304[1]
Children: John (<1312-<1342)
Ralph (<1312-ca1335)
Margaret (->1347)
1.2.1 John Basset
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1312[1]
Death: bef 1342, d.v.p.[1]
named in a fine by grandfather John de Grey as beneficiary of a
remainder (manors of Yelling, Hunts. & c.), 1311/12[1]
1.2.2 Ralph Basset
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1312[1]
Death: ca 1335, d.v.p.[1]
1st husband of Alice de Audley
heir apparent of his father (d.v.p.)
also named in fine of 1311/12 by grandfather John de Grey[1]
Spouse: Alice de Audley
Father: Nicholas de Audley (1289-1316)
Mother: Joan Martin (-<1322)
Marr: bef 1335[5]
Children: Ralph (-1390)
1.2.3 Margaret Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1 Dec 1347, d.s.p.[1]
Countess of Hereford and Essex (widow of John de Bohun)[1]
Spouse: John de Bohun
Birth: 23 Nov 1306[1]
Death: 20 Jan 1335, Kirkby-Thorpe, co. Westmoreland (d.s.p.)[1]
Father: Humphrey de Bohun (<1276-1321)
Mother: Elizabeth of England (1282-1316)
1.3 John Basset
----------------------------------------
1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
3. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
4. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century
Colonists," Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society,
1999, (2nd edition, 1999).
5. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet," Jan 20, 2003, email
royalancestry@msn.com
6. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial
and Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing
Company, 2004.
7. Pedigree of Stafford, Earls of Stafford
Descent from Robert de Stafford
comp. by Robert O'Connor
roconnor@es.co.nz
8. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists,"
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
9. Douglas Richardson, "Audley and Stafford," August 21, 2002,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, draft texts re: Stafford and Audley
families.
10. Jonathan Sumption, "The Hundred Years War," Philadelphia:
University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999, Vol. II: Trial by Fire.
* John P. Ravilious
Dear Simon,
There was a bit of confusion in the assignment of Margaret
Basset, wife of Edmund de Stafford, which I believe was cleared up
a while ago on SGM. She was clearly not the daughter of Ralph
Basset (d. 25 Feb 1342/3) and his wife Joan de Grey, but rather
his sister. The origin of the confusion is evidently due to the
work of Sir William Dugdale, who somehow merged [A] the marriage
of Ralph Basset of Drayton (d. 31 Dec 1299) into that of his son
(who did marry Joan de Grey), and also [B] the career of Ralph
(d. 1342) with that of his son [Dugdale, Baronage pp. 379-380].
The following gives a brief descent from Ralph Basset (d. 31
Dec 1299) and his wife Hawise. By the bye, I theorised some time
ago that she [Hawise] was most likely a daughter of Robert de
Vere, Earl of Oxford (d. bef 1297): should anyone have further
evidence on that matter, it would certainly be most welcome.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ralph Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: 31 Dec 1299[1]
Burial: Drayton, co. Stafford
Occ: Lord Basset of Drayton
Father: Ralph Basset (-1265)
Mother: Margaret de Somery (->1293)
of Drayton, co. Stafford and Colston Basset, co. Notts.
2nd (or younger) son, succeeding his brother Roger (d.s.p.) (q.v.)
Held lands of Ralph Basset of Weldon, 1284
Summoned to Parliament from 23 June 1295 by writ directed
'Radulfo Basset de Drayton', held to have become 1st Lord
Basset of Drayton.[1]
had a charter for a market and fair at Colston Basset, co. Notts.
originally granted 3 Sept 1257, by K Henry III to Ralph Basset of
Drayton the younger, 'To be held at the manor' (CChR, 1226–57,
p. 474). Having inspected the charter from K Hen III to Ralph
Basset of Drayton, lately deceased, on 6 Apr 1284, K Edw I granted
Ralph Basset (the original grantee’s son) a weekly market at his
manor on Fri, in lieu of that on Wed (CChR, 1257–1300, p. 272)[2]
Spouse: Hawise[1]
Children: Margaret (-<1336)
Ralph (-1342)
John
1.1 Margaret Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 17 Mar 1336[3]
coheiress (in her issue) of nephew Ralph, Lord Bassett
(d.s.p. 1390)[1]
her maritagium included the manor of Chipping Camden, co. Glocs.
(possibly gift of her grandmother Margaret de Somery):
1) see earlier entries, Roger de Somery and Margaret de Somery;
2) Chipping Camden held by her son Richard, 1360[2]
Spouse: Edmund de Stafford, Lord Stafford
Death: bef 12 Aug 1308[3]
Birth: 17 Jul 1273[3]
Father: Nicholas de Stafford (-ca1287)
Mother: NN de Langley
Marr: bef 1298[3]
Children: Ralph (1301-1372)
Sir Richard (ca1305-)
William
Humphrey
Mary
1.1.1a Ralph de Stafford*
----------------------------------------
Birth: 24 Sep 1301[4]
Death: 31 Aug 1372[1]
Burial: Tonbridge Priory, Kent[5]
Occ: Earl of Stafford
Baron of Stafford
inherited the Castle of Caus, co. Salop & c. as heir of his cousin
John Corbet, Lord Corbet, 1347 (CP Vol III -Corbet, p. 418n)[1]
' RALPH DE STAFFORD, K.G., 2nd Lord Stafford, Baron of Stafford, co.
Stafford, Steward of the King’s Household, Seneschal of Aquitaine, and, in right of
his 2nd wife, of castle and manor of Newport, co. Monmouth, Chipping Ongar,
Stapleford Tawney, and Hersham (in Havering), Essex, Dodington, co. Gloucester,
Stratton Audley, co. Oxford, Gratton, co. Stafford,...'[6]
participated under Edward de Baliol (recognized as rightful King of
Scots by Edward III of England) in invasion of Scotland, 1332
fought at the Battle of Sluys, 23 June 1340
Seneschal of Aquitaine, 23 Feb 1344/5
defended castle of Aiguillon against French forces under Prince John;
fought in the King's Division, Battle of Crecy, Aug 1346[7]
original Knight of the Garter, 23 Apr 1349
summoned to Parliament from 29 Nov 1336 by writs directed
'Radulpho Baroni de Stafford', held thereby to have become
Baron or Lord Stafford[1]
steward of the King's household to King Edward III, 1341:
had grant by royal charter of a fair and market at Tysoe, co.
Warwick from King Edward, 13 May 1341 - 'to be held at the manor'[2]
created Earl of Stafford 5 Mar 1350/51[4]
Spouse: Margaret de Audley [2nd wife]
Birth: abt 1325[1]
Death: 16 Sep 1348[8]
Father: Hugh de Audley, Earl of Gloucester (~1289-1347)
Mother: Margaret de Clare (ca1294-1342)
Marr: bef 6 Jul 1336[4]
Children: Ralph (ca1334-<1347)
Elizabeth (1337-1375)
Beatrice (-1415)
Hugh (~1341-1386)
Joan (-<1397)
Catherine (<1348-<1361)
Thomas
1.1.1b Ralph de Stafford* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Katherine de Hastang [1st wife]
Death: bef 6 Jul 1336[4]
Father: John de Hastang
Mother: Eve
Marr: bef 9 Feb 1327[9]
Children: Margaret
Joan
1.1.2 Sir Richard de Stafford
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1305
knt., of Chipping Camden, co. Glocs.
served under the Black Prince in Languedoc, 1355-1356 (sent to
London, Jan 1355/6) [Sumption, p. 187[10]]
sailed from Plymouth to resupply the Prince in Bordeaux,
(arrived ca 19 Jun 1356) [Sumption p. 223[10]]
Grant of Fair: '(Charter) vfm, George (23 Apr): gr 26 May 1360,
by K Edw III to Richard de Stafford (CChR, 1341-1417). To be held
at the manor.'[2]
1.1.3 William de Stafford
----------------------------------------
1.1.4 Humphrey de Stafford
----------------------------------------
1.1.5 Mary de Stafford
----------------------------------------
1.2 Ralph Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: 25 Feb 1342[1]
Occ: Lord Basset
2nd Lord Basset of Drayton
' In 1329, Ralph Basset of Drayton (apparently the son of the Ralph
Basset in the 1284 charter) was holding the market [at Colston
Basset, co. Notts.]. (QW, pp. 614–15) '[2]
charter for a fair at Olney, co. Bucks. 'gr[anted] 6 May 1316, by
K Edw II to Ralph Basset of Drayton (CChR, 1300–26, p. 306). To
be held at the manor.'[2]
Spouse: Joan de Grey
Death: bef 5 Apr 1353[1]
Father: John de Grey, Lord Grey (<1268-1323)
Mother: Maud de Verdun
Marr: bef 27 Mar 1304[1]
Children: John (<1312-<1342)
Ralph (<1312-ca1335)
Margaret (->1347)
1.2.1 John Basset
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1312[1]
Death: bef 1342, d.v.p.[1]
named in a fine by grandfather John de Grey as beneficiary of a
remainder (manors of Yelling, Hunts. & c.), 1311/12[1]
1.2.2 Ralph Basset
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1312[1]
Death: ca 1335, d.v.p.[1]
1st husband of Alice de Audley
heir apparent of his father (d.v.p.)
also named in fine of 1311/12 by grandfather John de Grey[1]
Spouse: Alice de Audley
Father: Nicholas de Audley (1289-1316)
Mother: Joan Martin (-<1322)
Marr: bef 1335[5]
Children: Ralph (-1390)
1.2.3 Margaret Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1 Dec 1347, d.s.p.[1]
Countess of Hereford and Essex (widow of John de Bohun)[1]
Spouse: John de Bohun
Birth: 23 Nov 1306[1]
Death: 20 Jan 1335, Kirkby-Thorpe, co. Westmoreland (d.s.p.)[1]
Father: Humphrey de Bohun (<1276-1321)
Mother: Elizabeth of England (1282-1316)
1.3 John Basset
----------------------------------------
1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
3. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
4. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century
Colonists," Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society,
1999, (2nd edition, 1999).
5. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet," Jan 20, 2003, email
royalancestry@msn.com
6. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial
and Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing
Company, 2004.
7. Pedigree of Stafford, Earls of Stafford
Descent from Robert de Stafford
comp. by Robert O'Connor
roconnor@es.co.nz
8. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists,"
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
9. Douglas Richardson, "Audley and Stafford," August 21, 2002,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, draft texts re: Stafford and Audley
families.
10. Jonathan Sumption, "The Hundred Years War," Philadelphia:
University of Pennsylvania Press, 1999, Vol. II: Trial by Fire.
* John P. Ravilious
-
Chris Phillips
Re: Margaret Basset wife of Edmund Stafford
John Ravilious wrote:
Yes - according to my notes, volume 14 corrected the account under Stafford
(xii/1 173), to place Margaret a generation earlier.
Chris Phillips
There was a bit of confusion in the assignment of Margaret
Basset, wife of Edmund de Stafford, which I believe was cleared up
a while ago on SGM. She was clearly not the daughter of Ralph
Basset (d. 25 Feb 1342/3) and his wife Joan de Grey, but rather
his sister.
Yes - according to my notes, volume 14 corrected the account under Stafford
(xii/1 173), to place Margaret a generation earlier.
Chris Phillips
-
Gjest
Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J
I was prompted recently by a private email to look again at Barbara Gamage
who had married Robert Sydney (1563-1626), later 1st Earl of Leicester
She is described as "one of the wealthiest heiressess of her time".
I was directed to a web site, which states that it is quoting from a register
when it gives the record of their marriage 23 sep 1584. Curiously this
marriage took place *in* the house of Sir Edward Stradlinge of St Donnets and *in*
the presence of Harry, Earl of Pembroke.
Not having a connection currently between Barbara Gamage to Henry, Earl of
Pembroke, I was intrigued to try to find one. At first I tried fishing about
among the relatives of Robert Sidney. Then I noticed that Barbara's mother is
supposed to be Gwenllian POWELL, which Henry's sister Katherine Herbert is said
to have married Henry POWELL.
Perhaps someone knows if *that* is where the connection comes in? I haven't
found it quite yet, its' possible they are siblings, I'm just looking for a
good reference which says what their relationship was.
Thanks
Will Johnson
who had married Robert Sydney (1563-1626), later 1st Earl of Leicester
She is described as "one of the wealthiest heiressess of her time".
I was directed to a web site, which states that it is quoting from a register
when it gives the record of their marriage 23 sep 1584. Curiously this
marriage took place *in* the house of Sir Edward Stradlinge of St Donnets and *in*
the presence of Harry, Earl of Pembroke.
Not having a connection currently between Barbara Gamage to Henry, Earl of
Pembroke, I was intrigued to try to find one. At first I tried fishing about
among the relatives of Robert Sidney. Then I noticed that Barbara's mother is
supposed to be Gwenllian POWELL, which Henry's sister Katherine Herbert is said
to have married Henry POWELL.
Perhaps someone knows if *that* is where the connection comes in? I haven't
found it quite yet, its' possible they are siblings, I'm just looking for a
good reference which says what their relationship was.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
CE Wood
Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J
Mary Sydney (b. 27 Oct 1562, d. 25 Sep 1624) was the wife of Henry
Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (d. 19 Jan 1600-01) AND was the sister of
Robert Sydney, 1st Earl of Leicester, who married Barbara Gamage,
Their parents were Sir Henry Sydney (b. 20 Jul 1529, d. 6 May 1586) and
Mary Dudley (d. 11 Aug 1586).
This might account for the presence of Earl Henry at his
sister-in-law's marriage.
CE Wood
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (d. 19 Jan 1600-01) AND was the sister of
Robert Sydney, 1st Earl of Leicester, who married Barbara Gamage,
Their parents were Sir Henry Sydney (b. 20 Jul 1529, d. 6 May 1586) and
Mary Dudley (d. 11 Aug 1586).
This might account for the presence of Earl Henry at his
sister-in-law's marriage.
CE Wood
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I was prompted recently by a private email to look again at Barbara Gamage
who had married Robert Sydney (1563-1626), later 1st Earl of Leicester
She is described as "one of the wealthiest heiressess of her time".
I was directed to a web site, which states that it is quoting from a register
when it gives the record of their marriage 23 sep 1584. Curiously this
marriage took place *in* the house of Sir Edward Stradlinge of St Donnets and *in*
the presence of Harry, Earl of Pembroke.
Not having a connection currently between Barbara Gamage to Henry, Earl of
Pembroke, I was intrigued to try to find one. At first I tried fishing about
among the relatives of Robert Sidney. Then I noticed that Barbara's mother is
supposed to be Gwenllian POWELL, which Henry's sister Katherine Herbert is said
to have married Henry POWELL.
Perhaps someone knows if *that* is where the connection comes in? I haven't
found it quite yet, its' possible they are siblings, I'm just looking for a
good reference which says what their relationship was.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J
In a message dated 8/11/05 5:11:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wood_ce@msn.com
writes:
<< Mary Sydney (b. 27 Oct 1562, d. 25 Sep 1624) was the wife of Henry
Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (d. 19 Jan 1600-01) AND was the sister of
Robert Sydney, 1st Earl of Leicester, who married Barbara Gamage,
Their parents were Sir Henry Sydney (b. 20 Jul 1529, d. 6 May 1586) and
Mary Dudley (d. 11 Aug 1586). >>
Thank you. Using DNB I've only *just* figured this out shortly before or
contemporaneous with when you posted it (!!)
By the way the entry on Henry Herbert, later 2nd Earl of Pembroke says that
he first married to Catherine Grey 21 May 1553 at Durham House, London the SAME
DAY AND PLACE as her sister Jane Grey married to Lord Guilford Dudley both of
whom came to be executed in the Tower of London.
And that these double-marriages were to effect a stronger bond on the
claim of John, Earl of Northumberland to put his daughter-in-law Jane Grey on the
throne of England.
In addition Henry's mother was Anne Parr sister to Queen Catherine Parr, last
wife of King Henry VIII
So these people are more highly connected than I had first thought.
Will Johnson
writes:
<< Mary Sydney (b. 27 Oct 1562, d. 25 Sep 1624) was the wife of Henry
Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (d. 19 Jan 1600-01) AND was the sister of
Robert Sydney, 1st Earl of Leicester, who married Barbara Gamage,
Their parents were Sir Henry Sydney (b. 20 Jul 1529, d. 6 May 1586) and
Mary Dudley (d. 11 Aug 1586). >>
Thank you. Using DNB I've only *just* figured this out shortly before or
contemporaneous with when you posted it (!!)
By the way the entry on Henry Herbert, later 2nd Earl of Pembroke says that
he first married to Catherine Grey 21 May 1553 at Durham House, London the SAME
DAY AND PLACE as her sister Jane Grey married to Lord Guilford Dudley both of
whom came to be executed in the Tower of London.
And that these double-marriages were to effect a stronger bond on the
claim of John, Earl of Northumberland to put his daughter-in-law Jane Grey on the
throne of England.
In addition Henry's mother was Anne Parr sister to Queen Catherine Parr, last
wife of King Henry VIII
So these people are more highly connected than I had first thought.
Will Johnson
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Margaret Basset wife of Edmund Stafford
Dear John ~
Speaking of theories, it's been a working theory of mine that Hawise,
wife of Ralph Basset (died 1299) is the same Hawise who was earlier the
wife of Robert de Keynes (died 1281), of Dodford, Northamptonshire.
I say that because Hugh le Despenser the elder was styled "kinsman" by
Robert de Keynes, son of Robert de Keynes and his wife, Hawise
[Reference: Ancient Deeds-Series A 1 (List & Index Soc. 151) (1978):
166].
And, Ralph Basset, son of Ralph and Hawise, was likewise styled
"cousin" by Hugh le Despenser the younger [Reference: Pierre
Chaplais, War of Saint-Sardos 1323-1325 (Camden Soc. 3rd Ser. 87)
(1954): vi, 75 & 80].
Both of these kinships are cited in the notes in my book, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005), under the Despenser account, pp. 276-277. If Robert
de Keynes and Ralph Basset both had the same mother, Hawise, and if
Hawise was near related to the Despenser family, it would explain the
kinship references I have located for these people.
Hawise, widow of Robert de Keynes was certainly licensed to remarry,
but her second husband is not mentioned in the royal license. Although
the chronology fits well for Hawise de Keynes to have married (2nd)
Ralph Basset, to date I have yet to find a record which connects the
two women as one person.
I might point out that Paget's Baronage gives a death date for Hawise
Basset, which is a date before Hawise de Keynes is known to have died.
If so, that would seem to be fatal to my theory. However, given that
the surname Basset is legion in English records in this time period,
there may well have been more than one lady named Hawise Basset in the
contemporary records. In short, this matter deserves further study.
By the way, if you're correct in your own theory that Ralph Basset's
wife was Hawise de Quincy, and if you're correct in your other theory
that Hugh le Despenser has Quincy ancestry, this would explain the link
between the Basset and Despenser families. This would not, however,
explain the link between the Keynes and Despenser families, unless, of
course, my theory about the two Hawise's being the same person is
correct. Wouldn't it be great if all of our working theories panned
out? That's probably expecting too much, but it's worth a thought.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Speaking of theories, it's been a working theory of mine that Hawise,
wife of Ralph Basset (died 1299) is the same Hawise who was earlier the
wife of Robert de Keynes (died 1281), of Dodford, Northamptonshire.
I say that because Hugh le Despenser the elder was styled "kinsman" by
Robert de Keynes, son of Robert de Keynes and his wife, Hawise
[Reference: Ancient Deeds-Series A 1 (List & Index Soc. 151) (1978):
166].
And, Ralph Basset, son of Ralph and Hawise, was likewise styled
"cousin" by Hugh le Despenser the younger [Reference: Pierre
Chaplais, War of Saint-Sardos 1323-1325 (Camden Soc. 3rd Ser. 87)
(1954): vi, 75 & 80].
Both of these kinships are cited in the notes in my book, Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005), under the Despenser account, pp. 276-277. If Robert
de Keynes and Ralph Basset both had the same mother, Hawise, and if
Hawise was near related to the Despenser family, it would explain the
kinship references I have located for these people.
Hawise, widow of Robert de Keynes was certainly licensed to remarry,
but her second husband is not mentioned in the royal license. Although
the chronology fits well for Hawise de Keynes to have married (2nd)
Ralph Basset, to date I have yet to find a record which connects the
two women as one person.
I might point out that Paget's Baronage gives a death date for Hawise
Basset, which is a date before Hawise de Keynes is known to have died.
If so, that would seem to be fatal to my theory. However, given that
the surname Basset is legion in English records in this time period,
there may well have been more than one lady named Hawise Basset in the
contemporary records. In short, this matter deserves further study.
By the way, if you're correct in your own theory that Ralph Basset's
wife was Hawise de Quincy, and if you're correct in your other theory
that Hugh le Despenser has Quincy ancestry, this would explain the link
between the Basset and Despenser families. This would not, however,
explain the link between the Keynes and Despenser families, unless, of
course, my theory about the two Hawise's being the same person is
correct. Wouldn't it be great if all of our working theories panned
out? That's probably expecting too much, but it's worth a thought.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Therav3@aol.com wrote:
Wednesday, 10 August, 2005
Dear Simon,
There was a bit of confusion in the assignment of Margaret
Basset, wife of Edmund de Stafford, which I believe was cleared up
a while ago on SGM. She was clearly not the daughter of Ralph
Basset (d. 25 Feb 1342/3) and his wife Joan de Grey, but rather
his sister. The origin of the confusion is evidently due to the
work of Sir William Dugdale, who somehow merged [A] the marriage
of Ralph Basset of Drayton (d. 31 Dec 1299) into that of his son
(who did marry Joan de Grey), and also [B] the career of Ralph
(d. 1342) with that of his son [Dugdale, Baronage pp. 379-380].
The following gives a brief descent from Ralph Basset (d. 31
Dec 1299) and his wife Hawise. By the bye, I theorised some time
ago that she [Hawise] was most likely a daughter of Robert de
Vere, Earl of Oxford (d. bef 1297): should anyone have further
evidence on that matter, it would certainly be most welcome.
Cheers,
John *
1 Ralph Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: 31 Dec 1299[1]
Burial: Drayton, co. Stafford
Occ: Lord Basset of Drayton
Father: Ralph Basset (-1265)
Mother: Margaret de Somery (->1293)
of Drayton, co. Stafford and Colston Basset, co. Notts.
2nd (or younger) son, succeeding his brother Roger (d.s.p.) (q.v.)
Held lands of Ralph Basset of Weldon, 1284
Summoned to Parliament from 23 June 1295 by writ directed
'Radulfo Basset de Drayton', held to have become 1st Lord
Basset of Drayton.[1]
had a charter for a market and fair at Colston Basset, co. Notts.
originally granted 3 Sept 1257, by K Henry III to Ralph Basset of
Drayton the younger, 'To be held at the manor' (CChR, 1226-57,
p. 474). Having inspected the charter from K Hen III to Ralph
Basset of Drayton, lately deceased, on 6 Apr 1284, K Edw I granted
Ralph Basset (the original grantee's son) a weekly market at his
manor on Fri, in lieu of that on Wed (CChR, 1257-1300, p. 272)[2]
Spouse: Hawise[1]
Children: Margaret (-<1336)
Ralph (-1342)
John
-
Gjest
Re: George Guldeford addition to genealogics.org
Well well well. A really unusual hit turns into an addition to
genealogics.org.
In meanderings around the truly immense collection of GAGE family documents
on A2A I was able to prove the wife of John Gage, Knt of West Firle who d bef
18 Jun 1556.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Archive of Gage family of Firle
Catalogue Ref. SAS/G
Creator(s): Gage family of Firle, East Sussex
FAMILY SETTLEMENTS
FILE - Settlement - ref. SAS/G21/3 - date: 14 Apr 1502
[from Scope and Content] Richard Guldeford, kt, controller of the king's
household, with John Gage of Burstow, Surrey, gent; JG to marry RG's daughter
Philippa
FILE - Settlement - ref. SAS/G21/4 - date: 1 Sep 1502
[from Scope and Content] Richard Guldeford, kt and John Gage, esq, to declare
the uses, by way of jointure for RG's daughter Philippa and wife of JG, of a
recovery in Trinity term 1502 made by RG, Edmund Dudley, esq, Thomas Islay,
esq, Richard Saunder, John Assheherst, Harry Saunder, John Fenner [recte Fermer
- see SAS/G21/8] and John Jurdan against JG of the manors of Aston Clinton in
Buckinghamshire and Heighton [St Clere], Sussex, of the value of £40 and much
more
------------------------------------------------------------------
Now Richard Guldeford, "Controller of the King's Household" must be someone
interesting, so I dug more on him and found several documents, not on him...
but rather on his daughter-in-law. It turns out that one of Richard's sons,
named George Guldeford married Elizabeth Mortymer [sic] who, in several I.P.M.
documents about her father is made known as the daughter of Robert Mortymer who
died 1496/1501
Elizabeth Mortimer is, several times, stated with an age, that allows us to
know she was born abt 1481 [give or take a year], AND that she married George
Guldeford between 1493/6 [Given as 8th year of Henry 7 and 11th year of Henry
7]
Now using this, I took a wild chance and queried Leo's great database....
Which tells us that this Elizabeth Mortimer, daughter of Robert, had for a mother
Isabella Howard, dau of John Howard 1st Duke of Norfolk who d 22 Aug 1485
Battle of Bosworth and his wife Katherine Moleyns who d 3 Nov 1465
Voila.
Will Johnson
genealogics.org.
In meanderings around the truly immense collection of GAGE family documents
on A2A I was able to prove the wife of John Gage, Knt of West Firle who d bef
18 Jun 1556.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Archive of Gage family of Firle
Catalogue Ref. SAS/G
Creator(s): Gage family of Firle, East Sussex
FAMILY SETTLEMENTS
FILE - Settlement - ref. SAS/G21/3 - date: 14 Apr 1502
[from Scope and Content] Richard Guldeford, kt, controller of the king's
household, with John Gage of Burstow, Surrey, gent; JG to marry RG's daughter
Philippa
FILE - Settlement - ref. SAS/G21/4 - date: 1 Sep 1502
[from Scope and Content] Richard Guldeford, kt and John Gage, esq, to declare
the uses, by way of jointure for RG's daughter Philippa and wife of JG, of a
recovery in Trinity term 1502 made by RG, Edmund Dudley, esq, Thomas Islay,
esq, Richard Saunder, John Assheherst, Harry Saunder, John Fenner [recte Fermer
- see SAS/G21/8] and John Jurdan against JG of the manors of Aston Clinton in
Buckinghamshire and Heighton [St Clere], Sussex, of the value of £40 and much
more
------------------------------------------------------------------
Now Richard Guldeford, "Controller of the King's Household" must be someone
interesting, so I dug more on him and found several documents, not on him...
but rather on his daughter-in-law. It turns out that one of Richard's sons,
named George Guldeford married Elizabeth Mortymer [sic] who, in several I.P.M.
documents about her father is made known as the daughter of Robert Mortymer who
died 1496/1501
Elizabeth Mortimer is, several times, stated with an age, that allows us to
know she was born abt 1481 [give or take a year], AND that she married George
Guldeford between 1493/6 [Given as 8th year of Henry 7 and 11th year of Henry
7]
Now using this, I took a wild chance and queried Leo's great database....
Which tells us that this Elizabeth Mortimer, daughter of Robert, had for a mother
Isabella Howard, dau of John Howard 1st Duke of Norfolk who d 22 Aug 1485
Battle of Bosworth and his wife Katherine Moleyns who d 3 Nov 1465
Voila.
Will Johnson
-
Ken Ozanne
Re: Australian Ancestry
Nat, et al,
In what I got as Gen-Medieval-D Digest Vol 5 #669, Nat Taylor wrote:
For what it's worth, my ancestors all reached Australia in the 1850s and
1860s. Half of the immigrants were of my great grandparents generation, the
other half (but obviously twice as many) of my great great grandparents
generation. I have found all origins, with no enormous difficulty -
Australian records are quite good. In case it's of interest, of the 12, one
was born Mecklenburg Schwerin, one Hamburg (both in the future Germany), one
in France (my agnatic line), two in Scotland, 3 in Cornwall, 2 in Devon, one
in Suffolk and one in Kent.
I don't know how typical my experience is, nor what difficulties there
may be in tracing convicts. But tracing ancestry beyond Australia does not
seem to have huge difficulties in general. Also it is probably easier on
average to trace ancestral lines overseas because they are more recent. I've
tended to concentrate mostly on British lines and I don't think there are
any I haven't managed to trace back at least two generations - quite a lot
back to the 16th century or beyond. Three of my twelve had royal ancestry,
though two of those were actually brother and sister.
I hope this is the kind of thing you wanted.
Best,
Ken
In what I got as Gen-Medieval-D Digest Vol 5 #669, Nat Taylor wrote:
Denis B's interesting comments about Quebec suggest that the quest for
origins of Quebecois immigrants has developed differently, and of course
it presents different problems. I would be interested to hear an
analogous overview of the Australian immigrant-ancestor field: where and
how are discoveries most fruitfully made, and what is the percentage of
known origins for members of different waves or cohorts of immigrants
(convict vs. non-convict; groups categorized by period, etc.); what is
the history of interest and research into this area; are there early
convict immigrants with known royal ancestries; etc.? And what about
other European colonies--e.g. Brazil?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/
For what it's worth, my ancestors all reached Australia in the 1850s and
1860s. Half of the immigrants were of my great grandparents generation, the
other half (but obviously twice as many) of my great great grandparents
generation. I have found all origins, with no enormous difficulty -
Australian records are quite good. In case it's of interest, of the 12, one
was born Mecklenburg Schwerin, one Hamburg (both in the future Germany), one
in France (my agnatic line), two in Scotland, 3 in Cornwall, 2 in Devon, one
in Suffolk and one in Kent.
I don't know how typical my experience is, nor what difficulties there
may be in tracing convicts. But tracing ancestry beyond Australia does not
seem to have huge difficulties in general. Also it is probably easier on
average to trace ancestral lines overseas because they are more recent. I've
tended to concentrate mostly on British lines and I don't think there are
any I haven't managed to trace back at least two generations - quite a lot
back to the 16th century or beyond. Three of my twelve had royal ancestry,
though two of those were actually brother and sister.
I hope this is the kind of thing you wanted.
Best,
Ken
-
Louise Staley
Re: Australian Ancestry
Ken Ozanne wrote:
Nat, et al,
In what I got as Gen-Medieval-D Digest Vol 5 #669, Nat Taylor wrote:
Denis B's interesting comments about Quebec suggest that the quest for
origins of Quebecois immigrants has developed differently, and of course
it presents different problems. I would be interested to hear an
analogous overview of the Australian immigrant-ancestor field: where and
how are discoveries most fruitfully made, and what is the percentage of
known origins for members of different waves or cohorts of immigrants
(convict vs. non-convict; groups categorized by period, etc.); what is
the history of interest and research into this area; are there early
convict immigrants with known royal ancestries; etc.? And what about
other European colonies--e.g. Brazil?
As far as I am aware, there is no published statistical analysis of the
royal/known medieval ancestry of the cohorts of immigrants who make up
Australia. For various reasons (to do with population size, time frame,
culture and immigrant origins) there is no "gateway ancestor industry"
of the sort seen in the US.
There is a lot of work published on the crimes Australian convicts were
convicted of and, in the main, I believe they were for what today would
be regarded as petty crimes, mainly theft. In the generation
transported, Australia received predominately poor people from England's
larger cities, especially London. So gaining an understanding of how
fruitful a search for royal ancestry would be will depend upon
understanding how likely someone of that class in England was to have
such ancestry. I would guess it would be much lower than, for example,
rural landholders, even small ones, or clergy or members of the
military. This is of course markedly different to the cohort from whom
early US ancestors are taken.
The other aspect relevant for Australians is the time frame. The first
major wave of immigration was in the 1850's after the discovery of gold
and the opening up of vast tracts of farming land. Obviously this is
only 150 years ago so even for someone like me aged 40 we are only
talking about my great-great-grandparents, of which there are only 8 to
deliver the royal/medieval ancestry. Americans have a further 230 years
for their ancestors to branch. My back of the envelope calculation
suggests Americans with Mayflower ancestors could be back 12 generations
where they have 2048 ancestors to find a link.
To add to Ken's example, I have royal/medieval ancestry from both my
parents. The "gateway ancestor" is very different though. On my father's
side the relevant line were clockmakers in Devon and Cornwall (the
Upjohn family who also founded the pharmaceutical company in the US) one
of whom married a Charlotte Rouse in 1765. Charlotte gets her medieval
ancestry from a marriage in 1675 when an Oliver Rouse married Elizabeth
Yeo, daughter of a prominent Devon Family. In this case, a grandson of
Charlotte Rouse was the immigrant in 1854.
By contrast, on my mother's side, the immigrant Thomas Beaumont Waters
was the son of a Harriet Dixie of the Dixie Baronets of Bosworth Hall
family so the gateway occurred with her marriage in 1831 as opposed to
the gateway on my father's side occurring in 1675. Although I cannot yet
prove it, I also suspect Harriet's husband John Waters will have
interesting Welsh ancestry.
Interestingly, it was this Thomas Beaumont Waters, younger son of
Harriet Dixie who ended up marrying the daughter of a convict.
Like Ken I can trace when all my ancestors came to Australia. The
pattern is similar: 2 from Germany, 2 from Scotland and the rest from
England. I have found it impossible to trace the ancestry of my single
convict ancestor. His name was Wheeler and he came from London. He was
transported aged 19 for beast stealing. By the time he died he was a
major landholder and his origins were completely obscured.
Louise
Nat Taylor
For what it's worth, my ancestors all reached Australia in the 1850s and
1860s. Half of the immigrants were of my great grandparents generation, the
other half (but obviously twice as many) of my great great grandparents
generation. I have found all origins, with no enormous difficulty -
Australian records are quite good. In case it's of interest, of the 12, one
was born Mecklenburg Schwerin, one Hamburg (both in the future Germany), one
in France (my agnatic line), two in Scotland, 3 in Cornwall, 2 in Devon, one
in Suffolk and one in Kent.
I don't know how typical my experience is, nor what difficulties there
may be in tracing convicts. But tracing ancestry beyond Australia does not
seem to have huge difficulties in general. Also it is probably easier on
average to trace ancestral lines overseas because they are more recent. I've
tended to concentrate mostly on British lines and I don't think there are
any I haven't managed to trace back at least two generations - quite a lot
back to the 16th century or beyond. Three of my twelve had royal ancestry,
though two of those were actually brother and sister.
I hope this is the kind of thing you wanted.
Best,
Ken
-
Doug Weller
Re: England's/Britain's Homosexual Kings
On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 03:41:08 GMT, in alt.history.british, Sheila J wrote:
Zilch. It was just an opportunity for MH to prove himself to be an asshole
racist.
Doug
--
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
Doug & Helen's Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Mors Hostibus wrote:
I cannot bear another snotty canadian
Those leftist rubes are such a bore. They are self-important, culture-lite
apologists who have turned their silly land over to the french, muslims,
asians and jamaicans.
Mors Hostibus
What does any of the above have to do with Phillip of Cognac?
Zilch. It was just an opportunity for MH to prove himself to be an asshole
racist.
Doug
--
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
Doug & Helen's Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
-
Gjest
Re: Gateway Ancestors Exposed (slightly OT)
Dear Newsgroup,
I obviously should have consulted my copy of
GDMENH before writing about Hosea Mallett in my last post. I had him misplaced in
place. He lived on Maine`s Sagadahoc and Kennebec river region rather than New
Hampshire. and in time He witnessed deeds between Thomas Atkins and Robert
Edmunds in that area in 1664 and 1673. He also sold his land adjacent to it in
1673, called Oze Mallett .daughter Elizabeth Malet was born in Boston,
Massachusetts in 1678. In 1688 Hosea Malett was Master of four fishing vessels and
his will was probated at Boston November 2, 1690. admin. to widow Grace who
married Benjamin Balch of Beverley, MA in 1691.
Source: GDMENH p 454
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
I obviously should have consulted my copy of
GDMENH before writing about Hosea Mallett in my last post. I had him misplaced in
place. He lived on Maine`s Sagadahoc and Kennebec river region rather than New
Hampshire. and in time He witnessed deeds between Thomas Atkins and Robert
Edmunds in that area in 1664 and 1673. He also sold his land adjacent to it in
1673, called Oze Mallett .daughter Elizabeth Malet was born in Boston,
Massachusetts in 1678. In 1688 Hosea Malett was Master of four fishing vessels and
his will was probated at Boston November 2, 1690. admin. to widow Grace who
married Benjamin Balch of Beverley, MA in 1691.
Source: GDMENH p 454
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Gjest
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
Direct Descendants of Rohese of Boulogne
1 Rohese of Boulogne
..... +Richard de Lucy d: 1179
2 Maud de Lucy d: Aft. 1175
..... +Walter FitzRobert d: 1198 Burial: Dunmow Priory
3 Robert FitzWalter d: 09 December 1235 Burial: Dunmow Priory, ESS, ENG
..... +Rohese m: Aft. 27 December 1207 d: 1256 Burial: Dunmow Priory, ESS,
ENG
4 Walter FitzRobert b: Abt. 1219 d: Abt. 10 April 1258
..... +Ida Longespee d: Aft. 10 April 1262
5 Ela FitzWalter d: Aft. 1302
..... +William de Oddingseles b: Abt. 1235 d: 19 April 1295
6 Ida de Oddingseles b: Abt. 1265 d: Bet. 01 March 1321/22 - 1328
..... +Roger de Herdeburgh d: Bef. 09 February 1283/84
7 Ela de Herdeburgh b: Abt. 1282 d: Aft. 05 July 1343
..... +William le Boteler b: 11 June 1274 m: Bef. February 1315/16 d: Bef.
14 September 1334
8 Ankaret le Boteler b: in of Wem d: 08 October 1361
..... +John Le Strange b: 25 January 1305/06 m: Bef. 20 May 1327 d: 21 July
1349
9 Eleanor Le Strange d: 20 April 1396
..... +Reynold de Grey b: Abt. 1319 d: 04 August 1388
10 Ida Grey b: Abt. 1368 d: 01 June 1426 Burial: Cockayne Hatley, BDF,
ENG
..... +John Cokayne b: Abt. 1370 d: 22 May 1429 in Cockayne Hatley, BDF,
ENG Burial: Cockayne Hatley, BDF, ENG
11 [13] Elizabeth COKAYNE
..... +[12] Lawrence CHEYNE b: Abt. 1396 in Fen Ditton, CAM, ENG m: Abt. 13
December 1421 in Bury Hatley, BDF, ENG d: 30 December 1461 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
12 [14] John CHEYNE, Sir b: Abt. 1424 d: 14 July 1489 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
..... +[15] Elizabeth REMPSTON b: Abt. 1418 m: Bef. 1449 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
13 [2] Elizabeth CHEYNE
..... +[1] John HASILDEN b: 1448 d: Bet. 01 August 1499 - 1505
14 [3] Beatrice HASILDEN
..... +[4] Robert FREVILLE, Esq. d: April 1521
15 [5] Thomasine FREVILLE b: Bef. 1520 in England
..... +[6] Christopher BURGOYNE b: Bef. 1520 in Long-Staunton, CAM, ENG
16 [7] Thomasine BURGOYNE b: Abt. 1555 in ENG d: in ENG
..... +[8] Robert SHUTE b: Abt. 1528 in Gargrave, YKS, ENG m: 1576 in OF,
ENG d: April 1590 in ENG
17 [9] Anna SHUTE b: Aft. 1550 d: Aft. 1650
..... +[10] John LEETE b: Abt. 13 May 1575 in Dodington, HUN, ENG d: Abt.
December 1648
18 [11] William LEETE, Gov. b: 1612 in Doddington, HUN, ENG d: 16 April
1683 in Hartford, CT
2 ALICE de Lucy
..... +ODONEL de Umfreville d: 1182
3 MARGERY de Umfreville d: Bef. September 1198 Burial: Belvoir Priory,
LEI, ENG
..... +WILLIAM d'Aubeney III b: Aft. 1146 d: 07 May 1236 Burial: Newstead,
LIN, ENG
4 WILLIAM d'Aubeney IV d: Abt. 15 September 1242 Burial: Beauvoir
Priory, LEI, ENG
..... +ISABEL m: Bef. 1239 d: Aft. 1284
5 ISABEL d'Aubeney b: Abt. 1233 in Belvoir Castle, LEI, ENG d: 15 June
1301 Burial: Newstead Priory near Stamford, LIN, ENG
..... +ROBERT de Roos m: Abt. 1243 d: 17 May 1285 Burial: Kirkham, YKS, ENG
6 WILLIAM de Roos b: Abt. 1255 in YKS, ENG d: Bet. 12 May - 16 August
1316 Burial: Kirkham Priory, YKS, ENG
..... +MAUD de Vaux b: Abt. 1261 m: Bef. 1287 d: Bef. 1316 Burial: Pentney
Priory, NFK, ENG
7 AGNES de Roos d: Bef. 01 December 1328
..... +Payn TYBOTOT b: Abt. November 1279 m: Bef. 03 September 1311 d: 24
June 1314 in Battle of Bannockburn
8 John de TYBOTOT b: 20 July 1313 d: 13 April 1367
..... +Elizabeth ASPALL m: 1348 d: Aft. 12 October 1372
9 Payn de TYBOTOT b: 1353 d: Abt. 21 March 1412/13
..... +Agnes WROTH d: Bef. 1413
10 ELIZABETH de Tibetot
..... +John DANEYS, Sir
11 Elizabeth DANEYS
..... +William HASILDEN b: Abt. 1411
12 [1] John HASILDEN b: 1448 d: Bet. 01 August 1499 - 1505
..... +[2] Elizabeth CHEYNE
13 [3] Beatrice HASILDEN
..... +[4] Robert FREVILLE, Esq. d: April 1521
14 [5] Thomasine FREVILLE b: Bef. 1520 in England
..... +[6] Christopher BURGOYNE b: Bef. 1520 in Long-Staunton, CAM, ENG
15 [7] Thomasine BURGOYNE b: Abt. 1555 in ENG d: in ENG
..... +[8] Robert SHUTE b: Abt. 1528 in Gargrave, YKS, ENG m: 1576 in OF,
ENG d: April 1590 in ENG
16 [9] Anna SHUTE b: Aft. 1550 d: Aft. 1650
..... +[10] John LEETE b: Abt. 13 May 1575 in Dodington, HUN, ENG d: Abt.
December 1648
17 [11] William LEETE, Gov. b: 1612 in Doddington, HUN, ENG d: 16 April
1683 in Hartford, CT
2 Aveline de Lucy d: Aft. 1206
..... +Gilbert de Montfitchet d: Abt. 1187
3 Richard de Montfichet
..... +Millicent
4 Margery de Munfichet
..... +Peter de Faucomberge d: Aft. April 1230
5 Walter de Faucomberge d: Abt. 01 November 1304 in Rise Burial: Priory
of Ninkeeling
..... +Agnes de Brus m: Bef. November 1243 d: Abt. 1278 Burial: Guisborough
Priory
6 Anice de Faucomberge
..... +Nicholas Engaine, Sir d: December 1322
7 John ENGAINE, Sir b: 30 May 1302 d: 16 February 1357/58
..... +Joan PEVEREL
8 Elizabeth ENGAINE b: Abt. 1341 d: Abt. 1387
..... +LAURENCE de Pabenham b: Abt. 1334 in Of Pavenham, BDF, ENG d: 10
June 1399
9 KATHERINE de Pabenham b: Abt. 1372 d: 17 July 1436
..... +William CHEYNE, Sir d: Bef. 06 June 1399
10 [12] Lawrence CHEYNE b: Abt. 1396 in Fen Ditton, CAM, ENG d: 30
December 1461 Burial: Barnwell Priory
..... +[13] Elizabeth COKAYNE m: Abt. 13 December 1421 in Bury Hatley, BDF,
ENG
11 [14] John CHEYNE, Sir b: Abt. 1424 d: 14 July 1489 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
..... +[15] Elizabeth REMPSTON b: Abt. 1418 m: Bef. 1449 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
12 [2] Elizabeth CHEYNE
..... +[1] John HASILDEN b: 1448 d: Bet. 01 August 1499 - 1505
13 [3] Beatrice HASILDEN
..... +[4] Robert FREVILLE, Esq. d: April 1521
14 [5] Thomasine FREVILLE b: Bef. 1520 in England
..... +[6] Christopher BURGOYNE b: Bef. 1520 in Long-Staunton, CAM, ENG
15 [7] Thomasine BURGOYNE b: Abt. 1555 in ENG d: in ENG
..... +[8] Robert SHUTE b: Abt. 1528 in Gargrave, YKS, ENG m: 1576 in OF,
ENG d: April 1590 in ENG
16 [9] Anna SHUTE b: Aft. 1550 d: Aft. 1650
..... +[10] John LEETE b: Abt. 13 May 1575 in Dodington, HUN, ENG d: Abt.
December 1648
17 [11] William LEETE, Gov. b: 1612 in Doddington, HUN, ENG d: 16 April
1683 in Hartford, CT
As always, corrections & comments most welcome
Always optimistic--Dave
1 Rohese of Boulogne
..... +Richard de Lucy d: 1179
2 Maud de Lucy d: Aft. 1175
..... +Walter FitzRobert d: 1198 Burial: Dunmow Priory
3 Robert FitzWalter d: 09 December 1235 Burial: Dunmow Priory, ESS, ENG
..... +Rohese m: Aft. 27 December 1207 d: 1256 Burial: Dunmow Priory, ESS,
ENG
4 Walter FitzRobert b: Abt. 1219 d: Abt. 10 April 1258
..... +Ida Longespee d: Aft. 10 April 1262
5 Ela FitzWalter d: Aft. 1302
..... +William de Oddingseles b: Abt. 1235 d: 19 April 1295
6 Ida de Oddingseles b: Abt. 1265 d: Bet. 01 March 1321/22 - 1328
..... +Roger de Herdeburgh d: Bef. 09 February 1283/84
7 Ela de Herdeburgh b: Abt. 1282 d: Aft. 05 July 1343
..... +William le Boteler b: 11 June 1274 m: Bef. February 1315/16 d: Bef.
14 September 1334
8 Ankaret le Boteler b: in of Wem d: 08 October 1361
..... +John Le Strange b: 25 January 1305/06 m: Bef. 20 May 1327 d: 21 July
1349
9 Eleanor Le Strange d: 20 April 1396
..... +Reynold de Grey b: Abt. 1319 d: 04 August 1388
10 Ida Grey b: Abt. 1368 d: 01 June 1426 Burial: Cockayne Hatley, BDF,
ENG
..... +John Cokayne b: Abt. 1370 d: 22 May 1429 in Cockayne Hatley, BDF,
ENG Burial: Cockayne Hatley, BDF, ENG
11 [13] Elizabeth COKAYNE
..... +[12] Lawrence CHEYNE b: Abt. 1396 in Fen Ditton, CAM, ENG m: Abt. 13
December 1421 in Bury Hatley, BDF, ENG d: 30 December 1461 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
12 [14] John CHEYNE, Sir b: Abt. 1424 d: 14 July 1489 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
..... +[15] Elizabeth REMPSTON b: Abt. 1418 m: Bef. 1449 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
13 [2] Elizabeth CHEYNE
..... +[1] John HASILDEN b: 1448 d: Bet. 01 August 1499 - 1505
14 [3] Beatrice HASILDEN
..... +[4] Robert FREVILLE, Esq. d: April 1521
15 [5] Thomasine FREVILLE b: Bef. 1520 in England
..... +[6] Christopher BURGOYNE b: Bef. 1520 in Long-Staunton, CAM, ENG
16 [7] Thomasine BURGOYNE b: Abt. 1555 in ENG d: in ENG
..... +[8] Robert SHUTE b: Abt. 1528 in Gargrave, YKS, ENG m: 1576 in OF,
ENG d: April 1590 in ENG
17 [9] Anna SHUTE b: Aft. 1550 d: Aft. 1650
..... +[10] John LEETE b: Abt. 13 May 1575 in Dodington, HUN, ENG d: Abt.
December 1648
18 [11] William LEETE, Gov. b: 1612 in Doddington, HUN, ENG d: 16 April
1683 in Hartford, CT
2 ALICE de Lucy
..... +ODONEL de Umfreville d: 1182
3 MARGERY de Umfreville d: Bef. September 1198 Burial: Belvoir Priory,
LEI, ENG
..... +WILLIAM d'Aubeney III b: Aft. 1146 d: 07 May 1236 Burial: Newstead,
LIN, ENG
4 WILLIAM d'Aubeney IV d: Abt. 15 September 1242 Burial: Beauvoir
Priory, LEI, ENG
..... +ISABEL m: Bef. 1239 d: Aft. 1284
5 ISABEL d'Aubeney b: Abt. 1233 in Belvoir Castle, LEI, ENG d: 15 June
1301 Burial: Newstead Priory near Stamford, LIN, ENG
..... +ROBERT de Roos m: Abt. 1243 d: 17 May 1285 Burial: Kirkham, YKS, ENG
6 WILLIAM de Roos b: Abt. 1255 in YKS, ENG d: Bet. 12 May - 16 August
1316 Burial: Kirkham Priory, YKS, ENG
..... +MAUD de Vaux b: Abt. 1261 m: Bef. 1287 d: Bef. 1316 Burial: Pentney
Priory, NFK, ENG
7 AGNES de Roos d: Bef. 01 December 1328
..... +Payn TYBOTOT b: Abt. November 1279 m: Bef. 03 September 1311 d: 24
June 1314 in Battle of Bannockburn
8 John de TYBOTOT b: 20 July 1313 d: 13 April 1367
..... +Elizabeth ASPALL m: 1348 d: Aft. 12 October 1372
9 Payn de TYBOTOT b: 1353 d: Abt. 21 March 1412/13
..... +Agnes WROTH d: Bef. 1413
10 ELIZABETH de Tibetot
..... +John DANEYS, Sir
11 Elizabeth DANEYS
..... +William HASILDEN b: Abt. 1411
12 [1] John HASILDEN b: 1448 d: Bet. 01 August 1499 - 1505
..... +[2] Elizabeth CHEYNE
13 [3] Beatrice HASILDEN
..... +[4] Robert FREVILLE, Esq. d: April 1521
14 [5] Thomasine FREVILLE b: Bef. 1520 in England
..... +[6] Christopher BURGOYNE b: Bef. 1520 in Long-Staunton, CAM, ENG
15 [7] Thomasine BURGOYNE b: Abt. 1555 in ENG d: in ENG
..... +[8] Robert SHUTE b: Abt. 1528 in Gargrave, YKS, ENG m: 1576 in OF,
ENG d: April 1590 in ENG
16 [9] Anna SHUTE b: Aft. 1550 d: Aft. 1650
..... +[10] John LEETE b: Abt. 13 May 1575 in Dodington, HUN, ENG d: Abt.
December 1648
17 [11] William LEETE, Gov. b: 1612 in Doddington, HUN, ENG d: 16 April
1683 in Hartford, CT
2 Aveline de Lucy d: Aft. 1206
..... +Gilbert de Montfitchet d: Abt. 1187
3 Richard de Montfichet
..... +Millicent
4 Margery de Munfichet
..... +Peter de Faucomberge d: Aft. April 1230
5 Walter de Faucomberge d: Abt. 01 November 1304 in Rise Burial: Priory
of Ninkeeling
..... +Agnes de Brus m: Bef. November 1243 d: Abt. 1278 Burial: Guisborough
Priory
6 Anice de Faucomberge
..... +Nicholas Engaine, Sir d: December 1322
7 John ENGAINE, Sir b: 30 May 1302 d: 16 February 1357/58
..... +Joan PEVEREL
8 Elizabeth ENGAINE b: Abt. 1341 d: Abt. 1387
..... +LAURENCE de Pabenham b: Abt. 1334 in Of Pavenham, BDF, ENG d: 10
June 1399
9 KATHERINE de Pabenham b: Abt. 1372 d: 17 July 1436
..... +William CHEYNE, Sir d: Bef. 06 June 1399
10 [12] Lawrence CHEYNE b: Abt. 1396 in Fen Ditton, CAM, ENG d: 30
December 1461 Burial: Barnwell Priory
..... +[13] Elizabeth COKAYNE m: Abt. 13 December 1421 in Bury Hatley, BDF,
ENG
11 [14] John CHEYNE, Sir b: Abt. 1424 d: 14 July 1489 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
..... +[15] Elizabeth REMPSTON b: Abt. 1418 m: Bef. 1449 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
12 [2] Elizabeth CHEYNE
..... +[1] John HASILDEN b: 1448 d: Bet. 01 August 1499 - 1505
13 [3] Beatrice HASILDEN
..... +[4] Robert FREVILLE, Esq. d: April 1521
14 [5] Thomasine FREVILLE b: Bef. 1520 in England
..... +[6] Christopher BURGOYNE b: Bef. 1520 in Long-Staunton, CAM, ENG
15 [7] Thomasine BURGOYNE b: Abt. 1555 in ENG d: in ENG
..... +[8] Robert SHUTE b: Abt. 1528 in Gargrave, YKS, ENG m: 1576 in OF,
ENG d: April 1590 in ENG
16 [9] Anna SHUTE b: Aft. 1550 d: Aft. 1650
..... +[10] John LEETE b: Abt. 13 May 1575 in Dodington, HUN, ENG d: Abt.
December 1648
17 [11] William LEETE, Gov. b: 1612 in Doddington, HUN, ENG d: 16 April
1683 in Hartford, CT
As always, corrections & comments most welcome
Always optimistic--Dave
-
Gjest
Re: Philip Fitz Roy (or Philip of Cognac), bastard son of Ki
Douglas Richardson asked for a translation from the Comptes d'Alphonse de
Poitiers. Here is my attempt:-
"In the time of Henry count of Poitou, who was king of England, the
"father of Odo count of Angouleme freed Bardon, lord of Cognac, in
"the court of Poitiers, Bardon, from the homage which he [Odo's father]
"claimed from the same lord of Cognac, and he being present and consenting,
"the lord of Cognac did homage to the lord count of Poitou [I read "domino"
"for "domini"] for Cognac and its appurtenances; and I believe that there
"are many still living who saw this. The son of the same lord of Cognac
"likewise did homage to Richard of Poitou for Cognac and its appurtenances;
"which lord of Cognac being dead, king Richard count of Poitou gave Amelie
"the sole heiress of Cognac, whom he had in ward in right of the county of
"Poitou, to be the wife of a certain bastard son of his, namely Philip of
"Cognac; and she dying without children, the same count Richard held that
"castle and delivered it to Robert of Tomiant, his seneschal in Poitou.
MM
Poitiers. Here is my attempt:-
"In the time of Henry count of Poitou, who was king of England, the
"father of Odo count of Angouleme freed Bardon, lord of Cognac, in
"the court of Poitiers, Bardon, from the homage which he [Odo's father]
"claimed from the same lord of Cognac, and he being present and consenting,
"the lord of Cognac did homage to the lord count of Poitou [I read "domino"
"for "domini"] for Cognac and its appurtenances; and I believe that there
"are many still living who saw this. The son of the same lord of Cognac
"likewise did homage to Richard of Poitou for Cognac and its appurtenances;
"which lord of Cognac being dead, king Richard count of Poitou gave Amelie
"the sole heiress of Cognac, whom he had in ward in right of the county of
"Poitou, to be the wife of a certain bastard son of his, namely Philip of
"Cognac; and she dying without children, the same count Richard held that
"castle and delivered it to Robert of Tomiant, his seneschal in Poitou.
MM
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Philip Fitz Roy (or Philip of Cognac), bastard son of Ki
Thank you, Michael, for posting the Latin translation of the text
pertaining to Philip Fitz Roy (otherwise known as Philip de Cognac) and
his wife, Amélie de Cognac. Much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:
pertaining to Philip Fitz Roy (otherwise known as Philip de Cognac) and
his wife, Amélie de Cognac. Much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:
Douglas Richardson asked for a translation from the Comptes d'Alphonse de
Poitiers. Here is my attempt:-
"In the time of Henry count of Poitou, who was king of England, the
"father of Odo count of Angouleme freed Bardon, lord of Cognac, in
"the court of Poitiers, Bardon, from the homage which he [Odo's father]
"claimed from the same lord of Cognac, and he being present and consenting,
"the lord of Cognac did homage to the lord count of Poitou [I read "domino"
"for "domini"] for Cognac and its appurtenances; and I believe that there
"are many still living who saw this. The son of the same lord of Cognac
"likewise did homage to Richard of Poitou for Cognac and its appurtenances;
"which lord of Cognac being dead, king Richard count of Poitou gave Amelie
"the sole heiress of Cognac, whom he had in ward in right of the county of
"Poitou, to be the wife of a certain bastard son of his, namely Philip of
"Cognac; and she dying without children, the same count Richard held that
"castle and delivered it to Robert of Tomiant, his seneschal in Poitou.
MM
-
Gjest
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
Judy,
I did send a message suggesting that the arms are also the same as those of
the Scotts of Scott's Hall. Scott's Hall is in county Kent (Smeeth parish,
between Ashford and Folkestone)
The Scotts were quite a prominent family in SE England, and I feel it is a
pretty good chance that arms found in Beddington (Surrey, towards London) would
belong to this family.
But I'm not sure where you woulld find corrobative evidence for this.
Hasted would usually be a good bet, but I have taken my notes on the Scott's
family (not my primary subject) from Hasted but as I am missing details at the
relevant generation it may not be there.
Adrian (Surrey, UK)
"Hasted states that these Scotts claim to descend from John Balliol Regent
of Scotland (d 1269) and who was father to John Balliol, king of Scotland
(1250-1313, reigned 1292-1296). Apparently the Scotts of Scotts Hall's
coat of arms include three catherine wheels, the catherine wheel being part
of the Balliol coat of arms as can be seen at Balliol college, Oxford
University.
regards Adrian"
In a message dated 14/08/2005 06:15:35 GMT Standard Time,
katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com writes:
Judy Perry wrote;
Some of you may recall that I had previously posted some information
indicating that Isabella, first wife of Nicholas Carew (d. 1432?) may
not have been a Delamare by virtue of the arms on their Beddington tomb
showing three Catherine wheels.
I have found on the internet a transcription of a supposedly 1887
pamphlet on the history of the village of Nunney in Somerset, which
states as follows (from
http://www.gomezsmart.free-online.co.uk ... nnhist.htm):
"The next lords we know of were the De la Meres, and they are stated to
have been so early in 1300, and that in 1373 the Castle at Nunney was
either built or finished by Sir John do la Mere. The De la Mere family
were large landowners in Somerset and Wilts. They are said to have come
into England with the Con­queror. In 1377 John de la Mere, of Nunney,
was Sheriff of Dorset and Somerset. In 1390 they owned Fisherton de la
Mere, Wilts. In 1413 Elias de La Mere was Sheriff of Wilts, Richard was
Sheriff of Herefordshire in 1422, Thomas was Sheriff of Wilts in 1467.
Their arms were: Gules, two lions pass. guardant arg. At length the
male line failed in the person of Sir Elias de la Mere, Sheriff of
Wilts, in the second year Henry V., and his eldest sister, Eleanor,
became his heir and married William PauIett, Esq., Sergt.-at-law,
second son of Sir John Paulett, of Melcombe. By this marriage the manor
came to the Pauletts..."
One or more of the Delamere's is buried at Nunney reportedly.
At http://martin.prather.net/nunney_c.htm it is claimed that this same
family of Delamere married into, among other families, that of Carew.
IF this is true it would not auger well for the identification of
Isabella, wife of Nichlas Carew, as a Delamere based on heraldry on the
tomb.
If anyone has anything to offer, correct, I would be most grateful.
Regards,
Judy Perry
http://www.katherineswynford.net
I did send a message suggesting that the arms are also the same as those of
the Scotts of Scott's Hall. Scott's Hall is in county Kent (Smeeth parish,
between Ashford and Folkestone)
The Scotts were quite a prominent family in SE England, and I feel it is a
pretty good chance that arms found in Beddington (Surrey, towards London) would
belong to this family.
But I'm not sure where you woulld find corrobative evidence for this.
Hasted would usually be a good bet, but I have taken my notes on the Scott's
family (not my primary subject) from Hasted but as I am missing details at the
relevant generation it may not be there.
Adrian (Surrey, UK)
"Hasted states that these Scotts claim to descend from John Balliol Regent
of Scotland (d 1269) and who was father to John Balliol, king of Scotland
(1250-1313, reigned 1292-1296). Apparently the Scotts of Scotts Hall's
coat of arms include three catherine wheels, the catherine wheel being part
of the Balliol coat of arms as can be seen at Balliol college, Oxford
University.
regards Adrian"
In a message dated 14/08/2005 06:15:35 GMT Standard Time,
katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com writes:
Judy Perry wrote;
Some of you may recall that I had previously posted some information
indicating that Isabella, first wife of Nicholas Carew (d. 1432?) may
not have been a Delamare by virtue of the arms on their Beddington tomb
showing three Catherine wheels.
I have found on the internet a transcription of a supposedly 1887
pamphlet on the history of the village of Nunney in Somerset, which
states as follows (from
http://www.gomezsmart.free-online.co.uk ... nnhist.htm):
"The next lords we know of were the De la Meres, and they are stated to
have been so early in 1300, and that in 1373 the Castle at Nunney was
either built or finished by Sir John do la Mere. The De la Mere family
were large landowners in Somerset and Wilts. They are said to have come
into England with the Con­queror. In 1377 John de la Mere, of Nunney,
was Sheriff of Dorset and Somerset. In 1390 they owned Fisherton de la
Mere, Wilts. In 1413 Elias de La Mere was Sheriff of Wilts, Richard was
Sheriff of Herefordshire in 1422, Thomas was Sheriff of Wilts in 1467.
Their arms were: Gules, two lions pass. guardant arg. At length the
male line failed in the person of Sir Elias de la Mere, Sheriff of
Wilts, in the second year Henry V., and his eldest sister, Eleanor,
became his heir and married William PauIett, Esq., Sergt.-at-law,
second son of Sir John Paulett, of Melcombe. By this marriage the manor
came to the Pauletts..."
One or more of the Delamere's is buried at Nunney reportedly.
At http://martin.prather.net/nunney_c.htm it is claimed that this same
family of Delamere married into, among other families, that of Carew.
IF this is true it would not auger well for the identification of
Isabella, wife of Nichlas Carew, as a Delamere based on heraldry on the
tomb.
If anyone has anything to offer, correct, I would be most grateful.
Regards,
Judy Perry
http://www.katherineswynford.net
-
Gjest
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
BTW, you may, or may not find the answer in Nicholas' Will (PRO PCC Will
1432, Abstracts in Surrey Archaeology Collection v, pp 62-3 (but this vol seems
to be missing from Michael Gallafents CD edition of Surrey Wills)). You
should be able to download this PCC Will from the PRO web site. It will cost
£3.50, may be in Latin and, unless you are experienced, will be difficult to
transcribe
Adrian
In a message dated 14/08/2005 10:53:09 GMT Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
Judy,
I did send a message suggesting that the arms are also the same as those of
the Scotts of Scott's Hall. Scott's Hall is in county Kent (Smeeth parish,
between Ashford and Folkestone)
The Scotts were quite a prominent family in SE England, and I feel it is a
pretty good chance that arms found in Beddington (Surrey, towards London)
would
belong to this family.
But I'm not sure where you woulld find corrobative evidence for this.
Hasted would usually be a good bet, but I have taken my notes on the
Scott's
family (not my primary subject) from Hasted but as I am missing details at
the
relevant generation it may not be there.
Adrian (Surrey, UK)
"Hasted states that these Scotts claim to descend from John Balliol Regent
of Scotland (d 1269) and who was father to John Balliol, king of Scotland
(1250-1313, reigned 1292-1296). Apparently the Scotts of Scotts Hall's
coat of arms include three catherine wheels, the catherine wheel being part
of the Balliol coat of arms as can be seen at Balliol college, Oxford
University.
regards Adrian"
In a message dated 14/08/2005 06:15:35 GMT Standard Time,
katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com writes:
Judy Perry wrote;
Some of you may recall that I had previously posted some information
indicating that Isabella, first wife of Nicholas Carew (d. 1432?) may
not have been a Delamare by virtue of the arms on their Beddington tomb
showing three Catherine wheels.
I have found on the internet a transcription of a supposedly 1887
pamphlet on the history of the village of Nunney in Somerset, which
states as follows (from
http://www.gomezsmart.free-online.co.uk ... nnhist.htm):
"The next lords we know of were the De la Meres, and they are stated to
have been so early in 1300, and that in 1373 the Castle at Nunney was
either built or finished by Sir John do la Mere. The De la Mere family
were large landowners in Somerset and Wilts. They are said to have come
into England with the Con­queror. In 1377 John de la Mere, of Nunney,
was Sheriff of Dorset and Somerset. In 1390 they owned Fisherton de la
Mere, Wilts. In 1413 Elias de La Mere was Sheriff of Wilts, Richard was
Sheriff of Herefordshire in 1422, Thomas was Sheriff of Wilts in 1467.
Their arms were: Gules, two lions pass. guardant arg. At length the
male line failed in the person of Sir Elias de la Mere, Sheriff of
Wilts, in the second year Henry V., and his eldest sister, Eleanor,
became his heir and married William PauIett, Esq., Sergt.-at-law,
second son of Sir John Paulett, of Melcombe. By this marriage the manor
came to the Pauletts..."
One or more of the Delamere's is buried at Nunney reportedly.
At http://martin.prather.net/nunney_c.htm it is claimed that this same
family of Delamere married into, among other families, that of Carew.
IF this is true it would not auger well for the identification of
Isabella, wife of Nichlas Carew, as a Delamere based on heraldry on the
tomb.
If anyone has anything to offer, correct, I would be most grateful.
Regards,
Judy Perry
http://www.katherineswynford.net
1432, Abstracts in Surrey Archaeology Collection v, pp 62-3 (but this vol seems
to be missing from Michael Gallafents CD edition of Surrey Wills)). You
should be able to download this PCC Will from the PRO web site. It will cost
£3.50, may be in Latin and, unless you are experienced, will be difficult to
transcribe
Adrian
In a message dated 14/08/2005 10:53:09 GMT Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com writes:
Judy,
I did send a message suggesting that the arms are also the same as those of
the Scotts of Scott's Hall. Scott's Hall is in county Kent (Smeeth parish,
between Ashford and Folkestone)
The Scotts were quite a prominent family in SE England, and I feel it is a
pretty good chance that arms found in Beddington (Surrey, towards London)
would
belong to this family.
But I'm not sure where you woulld find corrobative evidence for this.
Hasted would usually be a good bet, but I have taken my notes on the
Scott's
family (not my primary subject) from Hasted but as I am missing details at
the
relevant generation it may not be there.
Adrian (Surrey, UK)
"Hasted states that these Scotts claim to descend from John Balliol Regent
of Scotland (d 1269) and who was father to John Balliol, king of Scotland
(1250-1313, reigned 1292-1296). Apparently the Scotts of Scotts Hall's
coat of arms include three catherine wheels, the catherine wheel being part
of the Balliol coat of arms as can be seen at Balliol college, Oxford
University.
regards Adrian"
In a message dated 14/08/2005 06:15:35 GMT Standard Time,
katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com writes:
Judy Perry wrote;
Some of you may recall that I had previously posted some information
indicating that Isabella, first wife of Nicholas Carew (d. 1432?) may
not have been a Delamare by virtue of the arms on their Beddington tomb
showing three Catherine wheels.
I have found on the internet a transcription of a supposedly 1887
pamphlet on the history of the village of Nunney in Somerset, which
states as follows (from
http://www.gomezsmart.free-online.co.uk ... nnhist.htm):
"The next lords we know of were the De la Meres, and they are stated to
have been so early in 1300, and that in 1373 the Castle at Nunney was
either built or finished by Sir John do la Mere. The De la Mere family
were large landowners in Somerset and Wilts. They are said to have come
into England with the Con­queror. In 1377 John de la Mere, of Nunney,
was Sheriff of Dorset and Somerset. In 1390 they owned Fisherton de la
Mere, Wilts. In 1413 Elias de La Mere was Sheriff of Wilts, Richard was
Sheriff of Herefordshire in 1422, Thomas was Sheriff of Wilts in 1467.
Their arms were: Gules, two lions pass. guardant arg. At length the
male line failed in the person of Sir Elias de la Mere, Sheriff of
Wilts, in the second year Henry V., and his eldest sister, Eleanor,
became his heir and married William PauIett, Esq., Sergt.-at-law,
second son of Sir John Paulett, of Melcombe. By this marriage the manor
came to the Pauletts..."
One or more of the Delamere's is buried at Nunney reportedly.
At http://martin.prather.net/nunney_c.htm it is claimed that this same
family of Delamere married into, among other families, that of Carew.
IF this is true it would not auger well for the identification of
Isabella, wife of Nichlas Carew, as a Delamere based on heraldry on the
tomb.
If anyone has anything to offer, correct, I would be most grateful.
Regards,
Judy Perry
http://www.katherineswynford.net
-
Dolly Ziegler
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
_The Carews of Beddington_. Ronald Michell [sic]. London Borough of Sutton
Libraries and Arts Services, Central Library, St. Nicholas Way, Sutton,
Surrey, 1981. ISBN 0907335020.
Held in the U.S. by Library of Congress and Family History Library (Salt
Lake City). Pp. ii, 129. N.b., FHL catalog says 2 p. of plates, but my
copy, same pub. date, has 38 illustrations, most full-page.
The book is primarily narrative; there are two genealogy charts, one
addressing the question, Who were the parents of Nicholas Carreu? The
other is Appendix III, Genealogy of the Carews.
Page 16: "It was perhaps at this time that young Nicholas was married to
Isabella De La Mare (she was probably the niece and not the daughter of
Peter who is believed never to have married)."
"This time" seems to be 1380s. The elder Nicholas wrote his will on 13th
October 1387, but did not die until 17th August 1390, according to
Michell.
Hope this may be useful. I'm also interested in the Scotts, so will follow
this thread with much interest. Scotts are a puzzling family.
Doug Richardson had a post on the Carews on Dec. 7, 1999; and Ronny Bodine
on 8 Dec. 1999.
Cheers, Dolly Ziegler
Libraries and Arts Services, Central Library, St. Nicholas Way, Sutton,
Surrey, 1981. ISBN 0907335020.
Held in the U.S. by Library of Congress and Family History Library (Salt
Lake City). Pp. ii, 129. N.b., FHL catalog says 2 p. of plates, but my
copy, same pub. date, has 38 illustrations, most full-page.
The book is primarily narrative; there are two genealogy charts, one
addressing the question, Who were the parents of Nicholas Carreu? The
other is Appendix III, Genealogy of the Carews.
Page 16: "It was perhaps at this time that young Nicholas was married to
Isabella De La Mare (she was probably the niece and not the daughter of
Peter who is believed never to have married)."
"This time" seems to be 1380s. The elder Nicholas wrote his will on 13th
October 1387, but did not die until 17th August 1390, according to
Michell.
Hope this may be useful. I'm also interested in the Scotts, so will follow
this thread with much interest. Scotts are a puzzling family.
Doug Richardson had a post on the Carews on Dec. 7, 1999; and Ronny Bodine
on 8 Dec. 1999.
Cheers, Dolly Ziegler
-
Gjest
Re: Philip Fitz Roy (or Philip of Cognac), bastard son of Ki
Dear Newsgroup,
I have seen a couple of websites , one belonging
to M. Andre LeClerc which indicate that Philip Fitz roy was the father by
his wife Amelie de Cognac of a daughter Aumus de Cognac born vers 1195 (note
that this same site indicates that Philip Fitz roy was born in vers 1175) Aumus
de Cognac is given a husband named Loup Raymond D`Orthe born vers 1197 to
Richard Garcie D`Orthe by Tiburge de Comminges. Loup Raymond and Aumus de Cognac
were parents vers 1216 of Raymond Richard D`Orthe who married Marie de
Lusignan, daughter of Hugues X de Lusignan by Isabel de Angouleme.
this lineage may be authentic or fraudulent, but certainly
appears worth a look to determine which.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
I have seen a couple of websites , one belonging
to M. Andre LeClerc which indicate that Philip Fitz roy was the father by
his wife Amelie de Cognac of a daughter Aumus de Cognac born vers 1195 (note
that this same site indicates that Philip Fitz roy was born in vers 1175) Aumus
de Cognac is given a husband named Loup Raymond D`Orthe born vers 1197 to
Richard Garcie D`Orthe by Tiburge de Comminges. Loup Raymond and Aumus de Cognac
were parents vers 1216 of Raymond Richard D`Orthe who married Marie de
Lusignan, daughter of Hugues X de Lusignan by Isabel de Angouleme.
this lineage may be authentic or fraudulent, but certainly
appears worth a look to determine which.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Philip Fitz Roy (or Philip of Cognac), bastard son of Ki
Dear James ~
The French document I posted yesterday is nearly contemporary to the
time of Philip Fitz Roy and his wife, Amélie de Cognac. It
specifically states that Amélie de Cognac died without issue. That
seems rather clear to me.
Following Amélie's death, her estates were regranted to the Lusignan
family. Had Amélie really had a daughter as you suggest, she almost
certainly would have been the heiress to her mother.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
The French document I posted yesterday is nearly contemporary to the
time of Philip Fitz Roy and his wife, Amélie de Cognac. It
specifically states that Amélie de Cognac died without issue. That
seems rather clear to me.
Following Amélie's death, her estates were regranted to the Lusignan
family. Had Amélie really had a daughter as you suggest, she almost
certainly would have been the heiress to her mother.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Newsgroup,
I have seen a couple of websites , one belonging
to M. Andre LeClerc which indicate that Philip Fitz roy was the father by
his wife Amelie de Cognac of a daughter Aumus de Cognac born vers 1195 (note
that this same site indicates that Philip Fitz roy was born in vers 1175) Aumus
de Cognac is given a husband named Loup Raymond D`Orthe born vers 1197 to
Richard Garcie D`Orthe by Tiburge de Comminges. Loup Raymond and Aumus de Cognac
were parents vers 1216 of Raymond Richard D`Orthe who married Marie de
Lusignan, daughter of Hugues X de Lusignan by Isabel de Angouleme.
this lineage may be authentic or fraudulent, but certainly
appears worth a look to determine which.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Katheryn_Swynford
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
Hi Adrian,
Yes, thank you for reminding me about the Scotts. I recall looking
through the information you suggested but also didn't find anything
conclusive. Who is "Hasted" by the way?
Yes, I have downloaded Nicholas' will. My Latin is all but
nonexistent, but I don't recall seeing anything like "uxoris" and a
surname IIRC.
I will redouble my efforts on finding more info on the Scotts family!
Kindest regards,
Judy
Yes, thank you for reminding me about the Scotts. I recall looking
through the information you suggested but also didn't find anything
conclusive. Who is "Hasted" by the way?
Yes, I have downloaded Nicholas' will. My Latin is all but
nonexistent, but I don't recall seeing anything like "uxoris" and a
surname IIRC.
I will redouble my efforts on finding more info on the Scotts family!
Kindest regards,
Judy
-
Gjest
Re: Nicholas Carew's wife a Delamare?
In a message dated 14/08/2005 23:42:51 GMT Standard Time,
katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com writes:
<<<<
Oh, and for anybody else who is similarly puzzled, the book _Wiltshire
Collections_ by John Aubrey and John Jackson, published by the
Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Society* in 1862 (from
notes taken by Aubrey in 1660s), on p. 100 states:
"I find the coate of Sir Robert Delamere, G. 2 lions passant guardant.
[Pl. ix. No. 163.] The coate of Sir Geffrey Delamere (of Suffolk) Or, a
fesse between 2 barres gemelles Azure."
Judy
Judy,
Another shield the de la Mare's used was Gules a maunch argent (eg at the
siege of Caerlaverock, 1300).
See Brian Timms' site which now has approaching 5,000 early European shields
(but alas, not the Scotts of Scotts Hall)
_http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20rolls%20of%20arms.htm_
(http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20r ... 20arms.htm)
The above shield is the same, but with opposite tinctures, to those of the
Tonie/Tony family. I did read somewhere that brothers sometimes took the same
shields, with tinctures reversed, but this may just be hogwash. There were
a number of other families that used the identical shield but with different
Tinctures, eg Hastings.
If it is of interest, you should be able to find in the archives a post I
made on the earlier de la Mare's of Oxfordshire, probably not the clearest
message I have written, but then the de la Mare family/families are difficult to
follow. There have also been other de la Mare posts, in the archives.
best regards,
Adrian
katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com writes:
<<<<
Oh, and for anybody else who is similarly puzzled, the book _Wiltshire
Collections_ by John Aubrey and John Jackson, published by the
Wiltshire Archaeological and Natural History Society* in 1862 (from
notes taken by Aubrey in 1660s), on p. 100 states:
"I find the coate of Sir Robert Delamere, G. 2 lions passant guardant.
[Pl. ix. No. 163.] The coate of Sir Geffrey Delamere (of Suffolk) Or, a
fesse between 2 barres gemelles Azure."
Judy
Judy,
Another shield the de la Mare's used was Gules a maunch argent (eg at the
siege of Caerlaverock, 1300).
See Brian Timms' site which now has approaching 5,000 early European shields
(but alas, not the Scotts of Scotts Hall)
_http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20rolls%20of%20arms.htm_
(http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20r ... 20arms.htm)
The above shield is the same, but with opposite tinctures, to those of the
Tonie/Tony family. I did read somewhere that brothers sometimes took the same
shields, with tinctures reversed, but this may just be hogwash. There were
a number of other families that used the identical shield but with different
Tinctures, eg Hastings.
If it is of interest, you should be able to find in the archives a post I
made on the earlier de la Mare's of Oxfordshire, probably not the clearest
message I have written, but then the de la Mare family/families are difficult to
follow. There have also been other de la Mare posts, in the archives.
best regards,
Adrian
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
Thanks, Dave, for the great post. Much appreciated. It's fascinating
to see the sundry and various descents from Rohese of Boulogne to each
immigrant - they're all so unique. The second descent you posted
through the Fauconberge, Engaine, Pabenham, and Cheyne families is very
distinctive. By all means, please post more descents to other
immigrants if you have them.
Since you asked for corrections and comments, I have a couple of
changes to offer you:
For "Odonel de Umfreville," read "Odinel de Umfreville"
For "Margery de Umfreville," read "Margaret (or Margery} de Umfreville"
For "Payn Tybotot," read "Pain de Tibetot"
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
UTZ@aol.com wrote:
to see the sundry and various descents from Rohese of Boulogne to each
immigrant - they're all so unique. The second descent you posted
through the Fauconberge, Engaine, Pabenham, and Cheyne families is very
distinctive. By all means, please post more descents to other
immigrants if you have them.
Since you asked for corrections and comments, I have a couple of
changes to offer you:
For "Odonel de Umfreville," read "Odinel de Umfreville"
For "Margery de Umfreville," read "Margaret (or Margery} de Umfreville"
For "Payn Tybotot," read "Pain de Tibetot"
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
UTZ@aol.com wrote:
Direct Descendants of Rohese of Boulogne
1 Rohese of Boulogne
.... +Richard de Lucy d: 1179
2 Maud de Lucy d: Aft. 1175
.... +Walter FitzRobert d: 1198 Burial: Dunmow Priory
3 Robert FitzWalter d: 09 December 1235 Burial: Dunmow Priory, ESS, ENG
.... +Rohese m: Aft. 27 December 1207 d: 1256 Burial: Dunmow Priory, ESS,
ENG
4 Walter FitzRobert b: Abt. 1219 d: Abt. 10 April 1258
.... +Ida Longespee d: Aft. 10 April 1262
5 Ela FitzWalter d: Aft. 1302
.... +William de Oddingseles b: Abt. 1235 d: 19 April 1295
6 Ida de Oddingseles b: Abt. 1265 d: Bet. 01 March 1321/22 - 1328
.... +Roger de Herdeburgh d: Bef. 09 February 1283/84
7 Ela de Herdeburgh b: Abt. 1282 d: Aft. 05 July 1343
.... +William le Boteler b: 11 June 1274 m: Bef. February 1315/16 d: Bef.
14 September 1334
8 Ankaret le Boteler b: in of Wem d: 08 October 1361
.... +John Le Strange b: 25 January 1305/06 m: Bef. 20 May 1327 d: 21 July
1349
9 Eleanor Le Strange d: 20 April 1396
.... +Reynold de Grey b: Abt. 1319 d: 04 August 1388
10 Ida Grey b: Abt. 1368 d: 01 June 1426 Burial: Cockayne Hatley, BDF,
ENG
.... +John Cokayne b: Abt. 1370 d: 22 May 1429 in Cockayne Hatley, BDF,
ENG Burial: Cockayne Hatley, BDF, ENG
11 [13] Elizabeth COKAYNE
.... +[12] Lawrence CHEYNE b: Abt. 1396 in Fen Ditton, CAM, ENG m: Abt. 13
December 1421 in Bury Hatley, BDF, ENG d: 30 December 1461 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
12 [14] John CHEYNE, Sir b: Abt. 1424 d: 14 July 1489 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
.... +[15] Elizabeth REMPSTON b: Abt. 1418 m: Bef. 1449 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
13 [2] Elizabeth CHEYNE
.... +[1] John HASILDEN b: 1448 d: Bet. 01 August 1499 - 1505
14 [3] Beatrice HASILDEN
.... +[4] Robert FREVILLE, Esq. d: April 1521
15 [5] Thomasine FREVILLE b: Bef. 1520 in England
.... +[6] Christopher BURGOYNE b: Bef. 1520 in Long-Staunton, CAM, ENG
16 [7] Thomasine BURGOYNE b: Abt. 1555 in ENG d: in ENG
.... +[8] Robert SHUTE b: Abt. 1528 in Gargrave, YKS, ENG m: 1576 in OF,
ENG d: April 1590 in ENG
17 [9] Anna SHUTE b: Aft. 1550 d: Aft. 1650
.... +[10] John LEETE b: Abt. 13 May 1575 in Dodington, HUN, ENG d: Abt.
December 1648
18 [11] William LEETE, Gov. b: 1612 in Doddington, HUN, ENG d: 16 April
1683 in Hartford, CT
2 ALICE de Lucy
.... +ODONEL de Umfreville d: 1182
3 MARGERY de Umfreville d: Bef. September 1198 Burial: Belvoir Priory,
LEI, ENG
.... +WILLIAM d'Aubeney III b: Aft. 1146 d: 07 May 1236 Burial: Newstead,
LIN, ENG
4 WILLIAM d'Aubeney IV d: Abt. 15 September 1242 Burial: Beauvoir
Priory, LEI, ENG
.... +ISABEL m: Bef. 1239 d: Aft. 1284
5 ISABEL d'Aubeney b: Abt. 1233 in Belvoir Castle, LEI, ENG d: 15 June
1301 Burial: Newstead Priory near Stamford, LIN, ENG
.... +ROBERT de Roos m: Abt. 1243 d: 17 May 1285 Burial: Kirkham, YKS, ENG
6 WILLIAM de Roos b: Abt. 1255 in YKS, ENG d: Bet. 12 May - 16 August
1316 Burial: Kirkham Priory, YKS, ENG
.... +MAUD de Vaux b: Abt. 1261 m: Bef. 1287 d: Bef. 1316 Burial: Pentney
Priory, NFK, ENG
7 AGNES de Roos d: Bef. 01 December 1328
.... +Payn TYBOTOT b: Abt. November 1279 m: Bef. 03 September 1311 d: 24
June 1314 in Battle of Bannockburn
8 John de TYBOTOT b: 20 July 1313 d: 13 April 1367
.... +Elizabeth ASPALL m: 1348 d: Aft. 12 October 1372
9 Payn de TYBOTOT b: 1353 d: Abt. 21 March 1412/13
.... +Agnes WROTH d: Bef. 1413
10 ELIZABETH de Tibetot
.... +John DANEYS, Sir
11 Elizabeth DANEYS
.... +William HASILDEN b: Abt. 1411
12 [1] John HASILDEN b: 1448 d: Bet. 01 August 1499 - 1505
.... +[2] Elizabeth CHEYNE
13 [3] Beatrice HASILDEN
.... +[4] Robert FREVILLE, Esq. d: April 1521
14 [5] Thomasine FREVILLE b: Bef. 1520 in England
.... +[6] Christopher BURGOYNE b: Bef. 1520 in Long-Staunton, CAM, ENG
15 [7] Thomasine BURGOYNE b: Abt. 1555 in ENG d: in ENG
.... +[8] Robert SHUTE b: Abt. 1528 in Gargrave, YKS, ENG m: 1576 in OF,
ENG d: April 1590 in ENG
16 [9] Anna SHUTE b: Aft. 1550 d: Aft. 1650
.... +[10] John LEETE b: Abt. 13 May 1575 in Dodington, HUN, ENG d: Abt.
December 1648
17 [11] William LEETE, Gov. b: 1612 in Doddington, HUN, ENG d: 16 April
1683 in Hartford, CT
2 Aveline de Lucy d: Aft. 1206
.... +Gilbert de Montfitchet d: Abt. 1187
3 Richard de Montfichet
.... +Millicent
4 Margery de Munfichet
.... +Peter de Faucomberge d: Aft. April 1230
5 Walter de Faucomberge d: Abt. 01 November 1304 in Rise Burial: Priory
of Ninkeeling
.... +Agnes de Brus m: Bef. November 1243 d: Abt. 1278 Burial: Guisborough
Priory
6 Anice de Faucomberge
.... +Nicholas Engaine, Sir d: December 1322
7 John ENGAINE, Sir b: 30 May 1302 d: 16 February 1357/58
.... +Joan PEVEREL
8 Elizabeth ENGAINE b: Abt. 1341 d: Abt. 1387
.... +LAURENCE de Pabenham b: Abt. 1334 in Of Pavenham, BDF, ENG d: 10
June 1399
9 KATHERINE de Pabenham b: Abt. 1372 d: 17 July 1436
.... +William CHEYNE, Sir d: Bef. 06 June 1399
10 [12] Lawrence CHEYNE b: Abt. 1396 in Fen Ditton, CAM, ENG d: 30
December 1461 Burial: Barnwell Priory
.... +[13] Elizabeth COKAYNE m: Abt. 13 December 1421 in Bury Hatley, BDF,
ENG
11 [14] John CHEYNE, Sir b: Abt. 1424 d: 14 July 1489 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
.... +[15] Elizabeth REMPSTON b: Abt. 1418 m: Bef. 1449 Burial: Barnwell
Priory
12 [2] Elizabeth CHEYNE
.... +[1] John HASILDEN b: 1448 d: Bet. 01 August 1499 - 1505
13 [3] Beatrice HASILDEN
.... +[4] Robert FREVILLE, Esq. d: April 1521
14 [5] Thomasine FREVILLE b: Bef. 1520 in England
.... +[6] Christopher BURGOYNE b: Bef. 1520 in Long-Staunton, CAM, ENG
15 [7] Thomasine BURGOYNE b: Abt. 1555 in ENG d: in ENG
.... +[8] Robert SHUTE b: Abt. 1528 in Gargrave, YKS, ENG m: 1576 in OF,
ENG d: April 1590 in ENG
16 [9] Anna SHUTE b: Aft. 1550 d: Aft. 1650
.... +[10] John LEETE b: Abt. 13 May 1575 in Dodington, HUN, ENG d: Abt.
December 1648
17 [11] William LEETE, Gov. b: 1612 in Doddington, HUN, ENG d: 16 April
1683 in Hartford, CT
As always, corrections & comments most welcome
Always optimistic--Dave
-
robyn clarke
Re: Earl of Shrewsbury-Filia de Talbot THANKS
To Chris and Leo,
Thank you both for your suggestions and help.
Very much appreciated.
Robyn
Australia
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Thank you both for your suggestions and help.
Very much appreciated.
Robyn
Australia
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-
Gjest
re: Copyright question
1) How large of a quote can you make from a work before it's a violation of
copyright law?
2) If you quote an entire letter of two pages, within your own work, which
itself it 800 pages long, are you in violation of copyright on that two-page
letter?
3) If a work has never been presented for sale, but has been given freely to
anyone who asks, would this not preclude any lawsuit from claiming financial
damages ?
Will Johnson
copyright law?
2) If you quote an entire letter of two pages, within your own work, which
itself it 800 pages long, are you in violation of copyright on that two-page
letter?
3) If a work has never been presented for sale, but has been given freely to
anyone who asks, would this not preclude any lawsuit from claiming financial
damages ?
Will Johnson
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: C.P. Addition: Maud de Bernake, wife of Sir Ralph de Cro
Douglas,
I am understanding that Maude Bernake who married Ralph Cromwell is the
daughter of John and Joan Marmion? That is the information I have in my
database, however, PRO has this; 1420 doc.-Cromwell of Tattershall Maud
[Bernake], who was the wife of Ralph de Cromwell, sr, kt, Lord: Norf, Lincs,
Northants, Notts, Derb. There is also a good discussion in 2001 Archives on
this family. I am particularily interested in the Kirketon connection and
the search for the Margaret heiress of Hundemanby who married Robert
Vipont.
Abstract IPM of Robert de Thatessal --Eight carucates in Hundemanby, held by
John Marmion by service of a knight's fee (of which John Marmion himself
holds three carucates
Pat
----------
I am understanding that Maude Bernake who married Ralph Cromwell is the
daughter of John and Joan Marmion? That is the information I have in my
database, however, PRO has this; 1420 doc.-Cromwell of Tattershall Maud
[Bernake], who was the wife of Ralph de Cromwell, sr, kt, Lord: Norf, Lincs,
Northants, Notts, Derb. There is also a good discussion in 2001 Archives on
this family. I am particularily interested in the Kirketon connection and
the search for the Margaret heiress of Hundemanby who married Robert
Vipont.
Abstract IPM of Robert de Thatessal --Eight carucates in Hundemanby, held by
John Marmion by service of a knight's fee (of which John Marmion himself
holds three carucates
Pat
----------
From: "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com" <royalancestry@msn.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: C.P. Addition: Maud de Bernake, wife of Sir Ralph de Cromwell, Lord
Cromwell
Date: Sun, Aug 14, 2005, 4:28 AM
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 551-552 (sub Cromwell) has a good account
of the life history of Sir Ralph de Cromwell (died 1398), 1st Lord
Cromwell. Regarding his marriage, Complete Peerage says the following:
"He married before 20 June 1366, Maud, sister and heir of William (who
died 18 Dec. 1360), and daughter of John Bernake, of Tattershall
aforesaid, by Joan, daughter and coheiress of John Marmion [Lord
Marmion] ... He acquired with his wife the estate of Tattershall, co.
Lincoln, livery being granted to them 18 March 1366/7, it having been
in the king's hands owing to the death of Sir John de Kirketon ...
[She] died 10 April 1419." [Note: Addition made from C.P. 14 (1998):
224].
Lady Maud de Cromwell was in fact the daughter of John de Bernake, Knt.
(died 1346), of Buckenham, Besthorpe, Denton, Hethersett, and
Wymondham, Norfolk (not Tattershall, Lincolnshire), by Joan, daughter
(but not coheiress) of John Marmion, Knt., 2nd Lord Marmion. Complete
Peerage gives no indication of Maud Bernake's birthdate, but various
family inquisitions indicate that she was born about 1335-8, being
aged 23 in 1360, and 24 or 26 in 1361, and aged 36 in 1382. I show
that Ralph Cromwell and Maud Bernake were married before 20 January
1360/1, which date is a good deal earlier than the date employed by
Complete Peerage.
Maud (de Bernake) de Cromwell was not the direct heiress of
Tattershall, Lincolnshire as suggested by Complete Peerage, nor did her
father, Sir John de Bernake, ever hold this property. Research
indicates that Maud's great-grandmother, Joan (de Tattershall) de
Driby, held the castle and manor of Tattershall as part of her
inheritance, and was granted a fair there in 1315. In 17 Edward II
[1323-4] Joan de Driby made a settlement of the castle and manor of
Tattershall, Lincolnshire on her younger son, Robert de Driby, for
life, with reversion to Maud's paternal grandparents, William and Alice
de Bernake [see Document #1 below]. It appears that this settlement
did not take effect, as the castle and manor of Tattershall were
afterwards held by Joan de Driby's eldest son and heir, John de Driby.
Sometime before his death in 1334, John de Driby gave Tattershall to
John de Kirketon, Knt., afterwards Lord Kirketon. Sir John de Kirketon
subsequently made settlements of this property in 1343 and 1352-3 [see
Documents #2-3 below]. Curiously, these settlements likewise did not
take effect. On Lord Kirketon's death in 1367, the castle and manor of
Tattershall were granted by the king to John de Driby's great-niece and
heiress, Maud de Bernake and her husband, Sir Ralph de Cromwell [see
Complete Peerage, 7 (1929): 338-340 (sub Kirketon); citing Cal. Close
Rolls, 1364-1369, pp. 322-323]. The bizarre descent of Tattershall,
Lincolnshire and the failure of three successive settlements give ample
testimony of the complexity of medieval land tenure. The source for
Documents #1-3 below is the online National Archives catalog at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.g ... ch.asp?j=1
Document #1:
C 143/168/1: Joan late the wife of Robert de Driby to settle the
castle and manor of Tattershall, and messuages and rent in Boston, the
manor of Bredon (Leic.), messuages, land, and rent in New Buckenham,
Old Buckenham, Attleborough, and Ellingham, the third part of the manor
of Wymondham, and the eighth part of the manor of Buckenham, with the
advowsons of the church of Tattershall and Kirkstead abbey, on herself
for life, with remainder as to the messuages, land, and rent in New
Buckenham, Old Buckenham, Attleborough, and Ellingham, the third part
of the manor of Wymondham and the eighth part of the manor of Buckenham
to William de Bernak, Alice his wife, and the heirs of their bodies;
and as to the castle and manor of Tattershall, tenements in Boston and
the advowsons, to Robert son of the said Joan for life, remainder to
the said William and Alice and the heirs of their bodies; and as to the
manor of Bredon to John son of the said Joan for life, remainder to the
said William and Alice and the heirs of their bodies, remainder to the
right heirs of Joan, retaining the manors of Holwell and Kettleby
(Leic.), Tumby and Kirkby-upon-Bain (Lincoln), the manor of Babbingley,
and a part of the Tolbooth of Lynn (Norfolk). Lincoln. Leic. Norfolk.
Date: 17 Edward II [1323-4].
Document #2:
C 143/260/4: John de Kirketon to settle the castle of Tattershall and
the manors of Tattershall and Tumby, with the knights' fees and
advowsons thereto pertaining, on himself and Isabel his wife and the
heirs of his body, with remainder to Robert de Litlebury and Florence
his wife and the heirs male of the body of the said Robert, remainder
to John de Loudham and the heirs male of his body, remainder to John
son of John le Bret and the heirs male of his body, remainder to John
son of Nicholas le Grey and the heirs male of his body, remainder to
the grantor's right heirs. Lincoln. Date: 16 Edward III [1343].
Document #3:
C 143/307/2: John de Kyrketon to settle the castle and manor of
Tattershall, with the advowsons of Kirkstead abbey, Markby priory,
Tattershall church, and the chapel of the said castle, on himself and
the heirs of his body, with remainder to John de Loudham and the heirs
male of his body, remainder to Alice daughter of John de Loudham and
the heirs male of her body, remainder to Isabel her sister and the
heirs male of her body, remainder to the right heir of John de Loudham
and the heirs of his body, remainder to the right heir of John de
Loudham the father and Alice his wife, and the heirs of his body,
remainder to the right heirs of the grantor, who retains the manors of
Tumby and Kirton in Holland. Lincoln. Date: 26 Edward III [1352-3].
Complete Peerage states correctly that Maud (de Bernake) de Cromwell
was sole heiress in 1360 to her brother, William de Bernake. However,
research indicates that she was also heiress in 1386 to her uncle,
Robert de Bernake, of Markby, Lincolnshire, and co-heiress in 1394 to
her cousin, Mary de Percy, wife of John de Roos, 5th Lord Roos of
Helmsley.
Robert de Bernake's place in the Bernake family is proven by several
charters abstracted below [see Documents #1-12], the first being a
charter of Lady Maud de Cromwell's paternal grandparents, William and
Alice (de Driby) de Bernake, in which they granted property at Baston
for life to their younger son, Robert. The seal on this charter
displays the Bernake family arms: ermine, a fess. The source of the
documents below is Report on the Manuscripts of Lord de L'Isle & Dudley
Preserved at Penshurst Place, 1 (Hist. MSS. Comm. 77) (1925): 16.
Document #4:
1334, November 10. - Charter of William de Bernake and Alice his wife
confirming to Robert their son for life all their lands in Baston which
came to them by the death of John de Dryby. Witnesses: Sir Nicholas de
Cauntelow, Sir William de Grey and others. Dated at Kynthorp
[Kingthorpe, Lincolnshire]. French. Seal: round, 1/2 inch; shield,
ermine, a fess. S. WILLELMI DE BERNAK."
Document #5:
1334, November 11. Assignment by Robert de Bernake to William de
Claydon, chaplain, to receive seisin of these lands in his place.
Seal: broken.
Document #6:
1339, June 13. - Charter of Alice, widow of Sir William de Bernake,
confirming to her son Robert the lands in Baston. Seal: round, 3/4
inch; three small shields; the seal is somewhat defaced, but one shield
in Bernak, and one of the others apparently Driby.
Document #7:
1355, Sept. 30. - Demise by Robert de Bernak to Hugh de Obthorp of his
lands in Baston for a term of six years. Seal: round, 1 inch;
armorial, defaced, but apparently a bend; SIGILLVM ROBERTI DE BERNAK.
Document #8:
1369, September 2. - Demise by Robert de Bernak to Hugh de Obthorp and
others of all his lands at Baston, except the windmill, for the term of
their lives at a rent of 10 marks. Three small sheilds.
Document #9:
1385, Sept. 11 - Demise by Robert de Bernak to William atte Yate of all
his lands in Baston, for life, at a rent of 10 marks. Small seal.
Document #10:
1397, October 1. - Demise by Sir Ralph de Cromwell, lord of Tateshale,
to Richard Ussher and John Cranmere of Baston, of the lands in Baston
lately belonging to Robert de Bernak, for a term of 12 years at a rent
of 10 marks. Two small seals.
Document #11:
1400, August 20. - Charter of Maud, widow of Ralph de Cromwell,
granting to Hugh de Goudeby all her lands in Baston in life. Dated at
Tateshale. Seal: round, 1 inch; a chevron between three mens heads; S.
HUGONIS DE GOUDEBY.
Document #12:
1410, April 21. - Charter of Maud de Cromwell, lady of Tateshale,
granting t Sir William de Cromwell her son, her manor of Driby, with
the advowsons of Driby and of the chantry there founded by Robert de
Bernack her uncle. Also the reversion of the lands which Hugh de
Goudeby holds for life in Baston. Witnesses: include Robert parson of
Driby, and John Skales chaplain in the chantry at Driby. Dated at
Tateshale. Seal: of Maud de Cromwell as described in Brit. Mus. Cat.
Seals ii, 9097; poor condition.
In the next message in this thread, I plan to post an abstract of the
1386 will of Robert de Bernake, of Markby, Lincolnshire, which names
his niece, Maud (de Bernake) de Cromwell, as a legatee and as his
executrix.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the colonial New World
immigrants who descend from Lady Maud (de Bernake) de Cromwell:
l. William Bladen.
2. Kenelm Cheseldine.
3. Grace Chetwode.
4. Muriel Gurdon.
5. Anne & Katherine Marbury.
6. Thomas Owsley.
7. Richard Saltonstall.
8. Mary Johanna Somerset.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
Gjest
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
I agree with the first and second lines down so far as the respective
13/12 Elizabeth Cheyne married to John Hasilden - these are backed up
by a number of sources, e.g. Sir John Cheyne's will of 31.7.1488 proved
PCC 21.7.1489 [PROB/11/8] mentions his daughter Elizabeth Haselden; the
1575/1619 Visitation of Cambridgeshire [sub Cheney, p119 Harl. Soc.
Pub] shows Sir John's daughter "Elizabeth ux. John Hasilden of Com.
Cambridg" while sub Haselden [p 88] "John Haselden of Meldreth in Com.
Cambridg [m] Elizabeth d. of John Cheyney".
I don't think the next generation is by any means certain, however:
i.e. an alleged daughter to John Haselden & Elizabeth Cheyne, Beatrice
Haselden, married to Robert Freville.
Robert Freville of Little Shelford (died 1521) left a will proved at
Ely which names his wife Rose; his children are stated to include a
daughter Thomasine. The will of Rose Freville "late the wife of Robert
Freville" was similarly proved at Ely in 1529. In the copy I have of
this latter will, Rose states she is the mother of the sons named in
Robert's will, but does not refer to daughters, so there is always a
possibility that she was a second wife, I suppose, but there is no
positive reason for believing this to be the case, so far as I know.
Rose's maiden name is not known. It is sometimes speculated that she
was a Peyton, as Sir Christopher Peyton stands at the head of the her
trustees named in her husband's will - but Sir Christopher's own will
(PCC Prob 11/15) does not mention her. Alternatively, she is sometimes
said to be a Haselden, probably because Francis Hasilden [son of John
and Elizabeth nee Cheyne] is likewise mentioned in Robert Freville's
will - for instance, the entry for Robert & Rose's son George Freville
in The History of Parliament says (without references) that he was "2nd
son of Robert Freville by Rose ?da. of Anthony Hasleden" [also a son of
John & Elizabeth].
I also have the wills of Anthony Haselden [proved PCC 1.6.1527, Prob
11/22] and Francis Haselden [Proved PCC, 21.11.1522, Prob 11/20]
neither of which refers to Rose or any other Frevilles - although the
former does refer to "my cosen Christopher Burgoyn" - the Burgoyne
entry at p24 of the Visitation of Cambridgeshire does not (at least in
my notes of it) shed any light on what this relationship would be - and
"my nephew Thomas Chichele ( the Visitation tells us that Christopher
Burgoyne's aunt "Elizabeth Burgoyne married Thomas Chichley"), so
perhaps we should read this to infer that Anthony Hasilden's otherwise
unnamed wife was a Burgoyne?
If any additional references are known, I should be delighted to see
them. Please let me know if you would like further particulars of the
Hasilden and related documents I hold - some of the wills go into a
large amount of genealogical detail.
In relation to the third line, I am in agreement with the Pabenham
descent so far as the alleged Beatrice Haselden at 13, but I am not
sure that the Mountfichet part of the descent is certain?
Regards
Michael
13/12 Elizabeth Cheyne married to John Hasilden - these are backed up
by a number of sources, e.g. Sir John Cheyne's will of 31.7.1488 proved
PCC 21.7.1489 [PROB/11/8] mentions his daughter Elizabeth Haselden; the
1575/1619 Visitation of Cambridgeshire [sub Cheney, p119 Harl. Soc.
Pub] shows Sir John's daughter "Elizabeth ux. John Hasilden of Com.
Cambridg" while sub Haselden [p 88] "John Haselden of Meldreth in Com.
Cambridg [m] Elizabeth d. of John Cheyney".
I don't think the next generation is by any means certain, however:
i.e. an alleged daughter to John Haselden & Elizabeth Cheyne, Beatrice
Haselden, married to Robert Freville.
Robert Freville of Little Shelford (died 1521) left a will proved at
Ely which names his wife Rose; his children are stated to include a
daughter Thomasine. The will of Rose Freville "late the wife of Robert
Freville" was similarly proved at Ely in 1529. In the copy I have of
this latter will, Rose states she is the mother of the sons named in
Robert's will, but does not refer to daughters, so there is always a
possibility that she was a second wife, I suppose, but there is no
positive reason for believing this to be the case, so far as I know.
Rose's maiden name is not known. It is sometimes speculated that she
was a Peyton, as Sir Christopher Peyton stands at the head of the her
trustees named in her husband's will - but Sir Christopher's own will
(PCC Prob 11/15) does not mention her. Alternatively, she is sometimes
said to be a Haselden, probably because Francis Hasilden [son of John
and Elizabeth nee Cheyne] is likewise mentioned in Robert Freville's
will - for instance, the entry for Robert & Rose's son George Freville
in The History of Parliament says (without references) that he was "2nd
son of Robert Freville by Rose ?da. of Anthony Hasleden" [also a son of
John & Elizabeth].
I also have the wills of Anthony Haselden [proved PCC 1.6.1527, Prob
11/22] and Francis Haselden [Proved PCC, 21.11.1522, Prob 11/20]
neither of which refers to Rose or any other Frevilles - although the
former does refer to "my cosen Christopher Burgoyn" - the Burgoyne
entry at p24 of the Visitation of Cambridgeshire does not (at least in
my notes of it) shed any light on what this relationship would be - and
"my nephew Thomas Chichele ( the Visitation tells us that Christopher
Burgoyne's aunt "Elizabeth Burgoyne married Thomas Chichley"), so
perhaps we should read this to infer that Anthony Hasilden's otherwise
unnamed wife was a Burgoyne?
If any additional references are known, I should be delighted to see
them. Please let me know if you would like further particulars of the
Hasilden and related documents I hold - some of the wills go into a
large amount of genealogical detail.
In relation to the third line, I am in agreement with the Pabenham
descent so far as the alleged Beatrice Haselden at 13, but I am not
sure that the Mountfichet part of the descent is certain?
Regards
Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
In a message dated 8/13/05 8:05:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, UTZ@aol.com
writes:
<< 7 John ENGAINE, Sir b: 30 May 1302 d: 16 February 1357/58
.... +Joan PEVEREL >>
On this Joan you give no dates.
However in a recent post here Douglas has shown that she was living at her
husband's death "...On 19 March following [1357/8] the escheator in co.
Leicester was ordered to take the fealty of Joan, and the manors which she and her
husband had held jointly at his death, were liberated to her."
In addiiton Douglas has shown that she was living a little later by this
document from the A2A collection
"... a grant dated 30 June 1359 from Sir William Bernake to Lady Joan,
"formerly wife of John Engayne, Knt." and other parties. ..."
Will Johnson
writes:
<< 7 John ENGAINE, Sir b: 30 May 1302 d: 16 February 1357/58
.... +Joan PEVEREL >>
On this Joan you give no dates.
However in a recent post here Douglas has shown that she was living at her
husband's death "...On 19 March following [1357/8] the escheator in co.
Leicester was ordered to take the fealty of Joan, and the manors which she and her
husband had held jointly at his death, were liberated to her."
In addiiton Douglas has shown that she was living a little later by this
document from the A2A collection
"... a grant dated 30 June 1359 from Sir William Bernake to Lady Joan,
"formerly wife of John Engayne, Knt." and other parties. ..."
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
PS The Mountfichet part does seem right, just the question marks at
Beatrice as above.
MAR
Beatrice as above.
MAR
-
Paul Mackenzie
Re: Copyright question
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
As to the first question, the answer is "it a substantial part of the
work". I am looking at this from British law, but US law is roughly the
same. The answer is a matter of degree and varies from case to case.
As to the second case, if copyright does exist in the letter, then
copying of the entire letter is an infringement of the copyright in that
letter. As we are dealing in medieval genealogy, copyright in a lot of
documents and books have expired. So it maybe wise to check. Under
Australian law the copyright period is generally 50 years plus the life
of the author. I believe US law is different. Also be aware that there
maybe copyright in photographs in old documents, where the copyright in
the document per se has expired.
An answer to the third question will depend upon the facts. For
instance, whilst a work may freely be given this per se is NOT a licence
for the work to freely reproduced. Thus it does not preclude a lawsuit
In essence, infringement will depend upon the terms and conditions
of any licence implied or otherwise associated with the gift or sale.
From a practical point of view, you could approach the owner of the
copyright in the letter requesting their permission to include the
letter in your work.
Regards
Paul
1) How large of a quote can you make from a work before it's a violation of
copyright law?
2) If you quote an entire letter of two pages, within your own work, which
itself it 800 pages long, are you in violation of copyright on that two-page
letter?
3) If a work has never been presented for sale, but has been given freely to
anyone who asks, would this not preclude any lawsuit from claiming financial
damages ?
Will Johnson
As to the first question, the answer is "it a substantial part of the
work". I am looking at this from British law, but US law is roughly the
same. The answer is a matter of degree and varies from case to case.
As to the second case, if copyright does exist in the letter, then
copying of the entire letter is an infringement of the copyright in that
letter. As we are dealing in medieval genealogy, copyright in a lot of
documents and books have expired. So it maybe wise to check. Under
Australian law the copyright period is generally 50 years plus the life
of the author. I believe US law is different. Also be aware that there
maybe copyright in photographs in old documents, where the copyright in
the document per se has expired.
An answer to the third question will depend upon the facts. For
instance, whilst a work may freely be given this per se is NOT a licence
for the work to freely reproduced. Thus it does not preclude a lawsuit
In essence, infringement will depend upon the terms and conditions
of any licence implied or otherwise associated with the gift or sale.
From a practical point of view, you could approach the owner of the
copyright in the letter requesting their permission to include the
letter in your work.
Regards
Paul
-
Paul Mackenzie
Re: Copyright question
Paul Mackenzie wrote:
My apologies to the group, I have not kept upto date with the recent
changes to copyright law
in Australia [last year or two]. Currently as the law now stands
The duration of copyright in Literary works is
(i) Literary works. Duration of Term:
life of the author plus 70 years
(ii) Literary works which are unpublished, have not been
broadcast or performed in public and records of which
have not been offered for sale to the public at the time of
the author's death. Duration of Term: 70 years after the first of these
events to occur; otherwise indefinite.
Photographs have different durations.
Regards
Paul
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
1) How large of a quote can you make from a work before it's a
violation of copyright law?
2) If you quote an entire letter of two pages, within your own work,
which itself it 800 pages long, are you in violation of copyright on
that two-page letter?
3) If a work has never been presented for sale, but has been given
freely to anyone who asks, would this not preclude any lawsuit from
claiming financial damages ?
Will Johnson
As to the first question, the answer is "it a substantial part of the
work". I am looking at this from British law, but US law is roughly the
same. The answer is a matter of degree and varies from case to case.
As to the second case, if copyright does exist in the letter, then
copying of the entire letter is an infringement of the copyright in that
letter. As we are dealing in medieval genealogy, copyright in a lot of
documents and books have expired. So it maybe wise to check. Under
Australian law the copyright period is generally 50 years plus the life
of the author. I believe US law is different. Also be aware that there
maybe copyright in photographs in old documents, where the copyright in
the document per se has expired.
An answer to the third question will depend upon the facts. For
instance, whilst a work may freely be given this per se is NOT a licence
for the work to freely reproduced. Thus it does not preclude a lawsuit
In essence, infringement will depend upon the terms and conditions
of any licence implied or otherwise associated with the gift or sale.
From a practical point of view, you could approach the owner of the
copyright in the letter requesting their permission to include the
letter in your work.
Regards
Paul
My apologies to the group, I have not kept upto date with the recent
changes to copyright law
in Australia [last year or two]. Currently as the law now stands
The duration of copyright in Literary works is
(i) Literary works. Duration of Term:
life of the author plus 70 years
(ii) Literary works which are unpublished, have not been
broadcast or performed in public and records of which
have not been offered for sale to the public at the time of
the author's death. Duration of Term: 70 years after the first of these
events to occur; otherwise indefinite.
Photographs have different durations.
Regards
Paul
-
Gjest
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
PPS I have muddled the above reference to the Peytons - Sir Robert
Peyton stands at the head of the trustees of Rose Freville's marriage
settlement according to her husband's will; Sir Robert Peyton died in
1518, according to VCH Cambridgeshire [sub Isleham]; it is the will of
his uncle Christopher Peyton (1507) which I have seen and which,
although providing an extensive list of relations, does not mention
Rose or any of the Frevilles.
Apologies for relying too much on memory.
MAR
Peyton stands at the head of the trustees of Rose Freville's marriage
settlement according to her husband's will; Sir Robert Peyton died in
1518, according to VCH Cambridgeshire [sub Isleham]; it is the will of
his uncle Christopher Peyton (1507) which I have seen and which,
although providing an extensive list of relations, does not mention
Rose or any of the Frevilles.
Apologies for relying too much on memory.
MAR
-
John Brandon
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
Gary the Body Roberts, _Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants_, pp. 538-39,
says that disproof of the Peyton descent and of the identification of
Rose Peyton as the wife of Robert Freville is to be found in Eugene A.
Stratton, _Applied Genealogy_, pp. 70-72, 74, 165, 170; while disproof
of any Haselden descent is found in _Nexus_ 13 (1996):129. Instead, he
gives a line from Robert II of France, through the Dukes of Burgundy,
Counts of Ponthieu, de Stoteville, de Say, Dabridgecourt, Staverton,
Burgoyne, Shute, Leete.
says that disproof of the Peyton descent and of the identification of
Rose Peyton as the wife of Robert Freville is to be found in Eugene A.
Stratton, _Applied Genealogy_, pp. 70-72, 74, 165, 170; while disproof
of any Haselden descent is found in _Nexus_ 13 (1996):129. Instead, he
gives a line from Robert II of France, through the Dukes of Burgundy,
Counts of Ponthieu, de Stoteville, de Say, Dabridgecourt, Staverton,
Burgoyne, Shute, Leete.
-
Gjest
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
Many thanks - this tallies with what I have found. It seems we do not
know what family Robert Freville's wife was from. I am still digging
away, mostly with original wills from Ely, and will post details if I
find anything to cast further light.
Michael
know what family Robert Freville's wife was from. I am still digging
away, mostly with original wills from Ely, and will post details if I
find anything to cast further light.
Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
From Little Shelford Church:
"In gratia et misericordia dei his iacent Robertus Frevill armiger
quondam dominus istius villae et Rosa uxor eius qui obiit xo mensis
Aprilis M.CCCCC.XX.II [sic] quoram animabus propicietur deus"
In God's grace and mercy here lie Robert Freville, armiger, sometime
lord of this village, and Rose his wife, who died the tenth day of the
month of April 1522 [should be 1521] on whose soul may God have mercy.
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
John Brandon wrote:
Dear John ~
Thanks for the correction. Much appreciated. Does this sever the
descent from Rohese de Lucy for the Leete family?
When you have a moment, can you post the specific descent from King
Robert II down to Leete, as given by Gary?
By the way, for those of you planning to come to the FGS Conference in
September here in Salt Lake City, I understand that Gary Boyd Roberts
is going to be here. If so, be sure to bring your pedigree charts and
have Gary look at them for you. Gary is a virtual walking
encyclopedia. He should be sitting at the NEHGS booth in the vendors'
hall. The NERHGS staff will have a list for people to sign up to have
Gary review their charts. Gary is awesome!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
Gary the Body Roberts, _Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants_, pp. 538-39,
says that disproof of the Peyton descent and of the identification of
Rose Peyton as the wife of Robert Freville is to be found in Eugene A.
Stratton, _Applied Genealogy_, pp. 70-72, 74, 165, 170; while disproof
of any Haselden descent is found in _Nexus_ 13 (1996):129. Instead, he
gives a line from Robert II of France, through the Dukes of Burgundy,
Counts of Ponthieu, de Stoteville, de Say, Dabridgecourt, Staverton,
Burgoyne, Shute, Leete.
Dear John ~
Thanks for the correction. Much appreciated. Does this sever the
descent from Rohese de Lucy for the Leete family?
When you have a moment, can you post the specific descent from King
Robert II down to Leete, as given by Gary?
By the way, for those of you planning to come to the FGS Conference in
September here in Salt Lake City, I understand that Gary Boyd Roberts
is going to be here. If so, be sure to bring your pedigree charts and
have Gary look at them for you. Gary is a virtual walking
encyclopedia. He should be sitting at the NEHGS booth in the vendors'
hall. The NERHGS staff will have a list for people to sign up to have
Gary review their charts. Gary is awesome!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: http://www.royalancestry.net
-
John Brandon
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
Hi Douglas,
Yep, I think it does sever the Leete's line to Rohese ...
Okay; it may take a while (tomorrow morning?).
John
Yep, I think it does sever the Leete's line to Rohese ...
When you have a moment, can you post the specific descent from King
Robert II down to Leete, as given by Gary?
Okay; it may take a while (tomorrow morning?).
John
-
Douglas Richardson royala
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
John Brandon wrote:
Tomorrow is fine, John. There's no hurry.
DR
Hi Douglas,
Yep, I think it does sever the Leete's line to Rohese ...
When you have a moment, can you post the specific descent from King
Robert II down to Leete, as given by Gary?
Okay; it may take a while (tomorrow morning?).
John
Tomorrow is fine, John. There's no hurry.
DR
-
Patricia Junkin
Re: C.P. Addition: Maud de Bernake, wife of Sir Ralph de Cro
John,
The old Brearley Hall was the ancient seat of the Midgleys. You have
indicated a connection between the Lacy and Farrer families. Could you
suggest a suggestion of a connection to the Midgleys?
Deeds and papers relating to Brighouse Mills in Rastrick - ref. DD12/II/22
Grant - ref. DD12/II/22/15 - date: 1599-1600 By John Lacy of Brearley to
Henry Farrer of Ewwood and John Midgley of Headley of the manor of Midgley,
Brearley House, Brearley Mill and three parts of Brighouse Mills.[Yorkshire
Archaeological Society
Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection Catalogue Ref. DD12
Creator(s):Clarke-Thornhill family of Fixby, West Riding of Yorkshire
Thornhill, Clarke-, family of Fixby, West Riding of Yorkshire]
Know it is a long shot but thanks in advance.
Pat
[quote]
1.1.1a.1.1.1.1.1 Hugh Lacy[19]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 31 Jul 1573[17]
Occ: lord of Midgely and Brearley Hall
Esq., of Brearley Hall, Halifax, co. York. [17]
'Hughe Lacie, esquier', will of John Savile of New Hall, his
brother-in-law, dated 1 April 1540 (proven 30 Jul 1545)
[Halifax Wills Vol. II:4-5[20]]
'Mr. Hughe Lacy', one of the godparents of his grandson John
Blithman, 14 Nov 1557 [record of baptism, from the parish
registers of Halifax, Co. York, 1538-1593, p. 108][21]
Will of Hugh Lacye of Midgeley, dated 20 September 1570,
proved July 31, 1573 by Executors named. '[22]
__________________________________
identified as father of Margaret Lacy, wife of William Farrar in
Visitation of Hertfordshire, 1634 (HSP 22:53[23], states 'John
Lacy of Brearley', correction to '[Hugh]')[24] and Visitation
of Surrey, 1623 (states erroneously 'Margerett d. of John Lacy
of Brerely in com. York')[23]
the following derived from the IPM of Hugh Lacy,
Esq. of Brearley, co. Yorks. :
' Sutcliffe lists among other property of Hugh Lacy
given in his Inquisition Post Mortem, in 1573, besides
Brearley Hall, a number of other estates, messuages,
etc., part of the Manor of Midgley, messuages in
Brearley, the Manor of Cromwell Bottom and other lands
in Southowram, one-sixth of the Manor of Ethesthorpe,
lands in Northowram and Stanfield; also the Manor of
Wakefield in Socage. '
[Holmes, The Farrar's Island Family and Its English
Ancestry[17] (Baltimore: Gateway Press, 1986), pp. 90-91,
cites Tom Sutcliffe, The Brearley Halls,
Upper and Lower, in Transactions of the Halifax Antiquarian
Society (Sept. 1922), IV:131.]
' 12. Hugh Lacy = Agnes Savile ' [RD 600, p. 316[12]]
Spouse: Agnes Savile
Father: Nicholas Savile, of Newhall in Eland, co. Yorks. (-<1527)
Mother: Margery Wilkinson
Children: Margaret Lacy(->1571)
John Lacy, Esq. of Brearley(-<1585)
Alice, m. John Holdsworth of Astay, co. Yorks.
Agnes, m. Christopher Deighton
Ellen, m. John Dean of Deanhouse
Gilbert (->1573)
Elizabeth, m. Jasper Blithman of Newlaithes,
co. Yorks.
1.1.1a.1.1.1.1.1.1 Margaret Lacy[17],[24],[23]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 28 Dec 1571[25]
'Margaret, my daughter, now wife of William Farrer', will of Hugh
Lacy [proven 31 July 1573: text in Holmes[17]]
' Margaret, da. of John [Hugh] Lacy of Brearley. ' [HSP 22:53[23]]
GENEALOGICS #I00387129[26]
identified as 'Margaret, daughter of Hugh Lacy, of Brearley, co.
York' [pedigree of Farrer, of Ingleborough, co. York, County
Families Vol. I - West Riding[19]]
cf. Foster, County Families of York, West Riding, Vol.
I - pedigree of Farrer, of Ingleborough, co. York[19]
HSP 22:53[23]
G. B. Roberts, pp. 316-7[12]
Spouse: William Farrar
Death: bef 3 Apr 1573[25]
Father: Henry Ferror (-<1549)
Mother: Agnes (->1548)
Children: Agnes, m. Richard Wade of Quickstavers
in Sowerby, co. Yorks.
Margaret, m. Edward Wilkinson
Henry Farrar, of Ewood in Midgley(-<1610)
John Farrar(<1541-<1628)
Robert (<1548-)
Hugh Farrar, of Wadsworth, co. Yorks.
Ellen
Mary (<1556-), m. Henry Horsfall
1.1.1a.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John Farrar
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 26 May 1628[27],[17]
Birth: bef 6 Mar 1541[28]
Bapt: 6 Mar 1541, Halifax, co. Yorks.[28],[21]
Esquire, of Croxton, co. Lincoln., and St. Mary, Aldermanbury, London
' John Farrar of Croxton, co. Linc., 2 son. = Sissely, da. of William
Kelk of Barnaby [Barnet by the Wold], co. Linc. ' [HSP 22:53[23]]
record of baptism, from the parish registers of Halifax, Co. York,
1538-1593 [Church of England. Parish Church of Halifax
(Yorkshire)[28]], p. 21:
' Item Johes. fil. Wl. Farror de Myggeley eodem [sexto] die. '[21]
'John Farror of Midgeley ', party (together with his brother Hugh) to
a grant dated 13 Jan 1577/78:
' Bargain and sale, dated 13 Jan 1578:
Parties 1. John Hutchonson of Kyngeston upon Hull
haberdasher and Margaret Brodley his wife
(daughter and co-heir of John Brodley bastard
son of William Brodley of Conanley in Craven, deceased)
2. John Farror of Midgeley and Hugh Farror of the same
clothiers.
Conson. £60.
Parcels a moiety of a messuage in Skircote then in occupation of
Henry Ferror of Ewwood in Mydgelay gent., near Hallyfax broke with
all lands &c. pertaining thereto in Skircote and Southowrome; also
a moiety of 2 fulling mills lately converted to 2 corn mills situate
on the aforesaid lands with all appurtenances.
Habendum. to (2) and the heirs and assigns of John Farror.
Covenants.
for further assurance, for title to convey, warranty against all
manner of persons and people, for quiet enjoyment, to hand over
deeds &c. and that (1) should enter into a bond for 200 marks for
due performance of this deed. ' [2 seal tags with traces of wax,
signature of Hugh Farror. No witnesses.] - A2A, West
Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds: Temple Newsam Collection
[WYL100/AR - WYL100/HX], WYL100/HX/A/83[4]
armorial bearings of 'John Ferrar of Croxton' confirmed as
appertaining to him by William Camden, Clarenceux King of Arms
in 1609[29]
inherited lands of Ewood and Midgley from brother Henry on his
death, July 1610[17]
will dated Nov 14, 1627, proven May 28, 1628 [The Pedigree of
Farrar[25], and A. Holmes, p. 51[17], citing PCC 50, the will
of ' John Farrer the elder of London, Esquire, of Aldermanbury
Parish ' ]
NOTE: identified erroneously in pedigree of Farrer, of Ingleborough,
co. York (County Pedigrees) as 'John Farrer, of Elfaburgh Hall
[ca 1537]'[19] based on said John Farrer being named one of the
supervisors of Henry Farrer's will, 25 June 1548[20]
cf. HSP 22:53, pedigree of Farrar of Great Amwell.[23]
Foster, pedigree of Farrer of Ingleborough, co. York.[19]
Holmes, pp. 49-52[17]
Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 303[2]
Roberts, pp. 316-7[12]
The Descent of Dr. Lillian K. Farrar, M.D.[29]
Spouse: Cecily Kelke[30]
Birth: bef 1552[31]
Father: William Kelke, mercer of London (~1520-<1552)
Mother: Thomasine Skerne (-<1566)
Marr: 25 Aug 1574, St. Sepulchre's without Newgate, London[30]
Children: Henry (-1672)
John (<1581-<1649)
William (<1583-<1637)
Humfrey
1.1.1a.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 William Farrar[27]
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 28 Apr 1583, Croxton, Lincolnshire[27]
Death: bef 11 Jun 1637[17]
Bapt: 28 Apr 1583, Croxton, Lincolnshire[17]
Occ: planter; member, Council for Virginia 1626 -[32]
of Hoddesdon, Bloxborne and Amwell, co. Herts., and 'Farrar's Island',
Henrico Co., Virginia
' 3. William. ' [Visitation of Herfordshire, pedigree of Farrer,
HSP 22:53[23]]
' William Farer 1623 ', 3rd son [HSP 43, Visitations of Surrey,
1623 - pedigree of Farrar[24]]
arrived in Virginia on the Neptune with Lord de la Warr, August 1618[27]
' Willliam fferrar ', res. at 'Jordans Journey', Virginia
on 16 Feb 1623/24 : appointed as attorney resident there with
family of Cecily, widow of Samuel Jordan, muster of 23
Jan 1623/24[32] :
' The MUSTER of m' WILLIAM FERRAR & m's JORDAN
WILLIAM FERRAR aged 31 yeares in the Neptune in August 1618
SISLEY JORDAN aged 24 yeres in the Swan in August 1610
Jordans Jorney. Charles Cittie
MARY JORDAN her daughter aged 3 yeares ttt borne heare.
MARGRETT JORDAN aged 1 yeare
TEMPERANCE BALEY aged 7 yeares
Servant's
WILLIAM DAWSON aged 25 yeres in the Discouery March 1621
ROBERT TURNER aged 26 yeres in the Tryall June 1619
JOHN HELY aged 24 yeares in the Charles November 1621
ROGER PRESTON aged 21 yeares in the Discouerie March 1621
ROBERT MANUELL aged 25 yeres in the Charles November 1621
THOMAS WILLIAMS aged 24 yeares in the Dutic May 1618
RICHARD JOHNSON aged 22 yeares in the Southampton 1622
WILLIAM HATFEILD aged in the Southampton 1622
JOHN PEAD 35 yeares old in the same Shipp
JOHN FREAME aged 16 yeares in the
same Shipp ' [ Muster of 21 Jan 1624/5[33],[34] ]
married Cecily, before 14 Nov 1627 (date of father's will) and
probably before 1626.[17]
d. before 11 June 1637:
'Willm. Farrar', "sonn and heire of Willm. Farrar late of Henrico,
decd.", had grant dated 11 June 1637 of '..2000 acres eastly.
upon the Gleab land of Varina, &c. westerly to the bottom
of ---- island.' [Virginia State Land Office, Land Office Patents
No. 1, 1623-1643 (v.1 & 2), p. 437 (Reel 1)][36]
3rd husband of Cecily _____ Jordan.[32]
cf. Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 303[2],
Holmes, pp. 49-52, 111-125[17]
Spouse: Cecily (Reynolds ?)[32]
Birth: ca 1599[32],[17]
Death: aft 1629
Marr: bef Jun 1627[17]
Children: William (~1627->1676)
John (->1684)
Cecily
1. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
2. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and
Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 2004.
3. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.), 'The Visitation of Yorkshire
in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
4. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
5. Paul C. Reed, "Driby," Society of Medieval Genealogy (@rootsweb.com),
22 June 1999, posted on GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
6. "Yorkshire Subsidy Rolls (Poll Tax) for the year 1379," transcribed
from The Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical Journals,
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Mi ... field.html
7. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England
Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
8. Alice Edith Middleton MacDonald, "The Fortunes of a Family: Bosville
of New Hall, Gunthwaite and Thorpe through Nine Centuries,"
Edinburgh: privately printed by T. and A. Constable, 1927, .pdf
image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
9. Douglas Richardson, "Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and
Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 2005.
10. William Brown, F.S.A., ed., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. II," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series, Record series vol. L - 1914.
11. "James L. Hansen," The Ancestry of Joan Legard, Grandmother of the
Rev. William Skepper/Skipper of Boston, Massachusetts, The American
Genealogist, Vol. 69, No. 3 (July 1994), pp. 129-139.
12. Gary Boyd Roberts, "The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the
American Colonies," Baltimore: Genealogical Pub. Co., 2004.
13. Charles Travis Clay, F.S.A., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. VI," The
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, printed for the
Society, 1930, Record series vol. LXXVI - for the year 1930.
14. J. Horsfall Turner, "The History of Brighouse, Rastrick, and
Hipperholme," Bingley, Yorkshire: Thomas Harrison and Sons, 1893,
.pdf image files provided by Ancestry.com http://www.ancestry.com.
15. John P. Ravilious, "Plantagenet Descent: Edward I to Symmes of
Barnsley," 26 April 2005, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, re: proof
of descent from Edward I of England to William Farrar the emigrant,
through Symmes of Barnsley and Lacy of Brearley.
16. M. J. Stanley Price, M.A., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. X," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series, printed for the Society,
1945, Record series vol. CXX - for the year 1953.
17. Alvahn Holmes, "The Farrar's Island Family and its English Ancestry,"
Baltimore: Gateway Press, Inc., 1972, reprinted 1986, cites Rev.
C. V. Collier, 'Documents at "Burton Agnes" ', East Riding Society,
vols. 18-19 (1911-1912), providing abstracts of 6 deeds relating to
Kelke and identifying members of the Kelke family.
18. "Some Early Lacys," E. Lacey, Rootsweb World Connect Project
(www. rootsweb.com), extracted 23 Aug 2000,
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~elacey/delacy_wbg/
19. "Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire," compiled by Joseph
Foster, W. Wilfred Head, London, 2 vols.: 1874.
20. J. W. Clay, F.S.A., and E. W. Crossley, editors, "Halifax Wills,"
(privately printed for the editor), Vol. I (1389 to 1544); Vol II
(1545-1559).
21. "Halifax Parish Registers, 1538-1593," Halifax, Yorkshire Baptisms,
1538-1593, image courtesy Ancestry.com.
22. "Will of Hugh Lacye, Esq. of Brearley," dated 20 Sept 1570, proved
31 July 1573, Ruth Keys Clark, ruthkeysclark@yahoo.com,
http://members.tripod.com/~Caryl_Williams/HLacye.html
text provided by Tom Sutcliffe (130-1) Halifax Antiquarium Society,
1 Sept 1922 “ The Brearley Halls, Upper and Lowerâ€
The old Brearley Hall was the ancient seat of the Midgleys. You have
indicated a connection between the Lacy and Farrer families. Could you
suggest a suggestion of a connection to the Midgleys?
Deeds and papers relating to Brighouse Mills in Rastrick - ref. DD12/II/22
Grant - ref. DD12/II/22/15 - date: 1599-1600 By John Lacy of Brearley to
Henry Farrer of Ewwood and John Midgley of Headley of the manor of Midgley,
Brearley House, Brearley Mill and three parts of Brighouse Mills.[Yorkshire
Archaeological Society
Clarke Thornhill of Fixby Collection Catalogue Ref. DD12
Creator(s):Clarke-Thornhill family of Fixby, West Riding of Yorkshire
Thornhill, Clarke-, family of Fixby, West Riding of Yorkshire]
Know it is a long shot but thanks in advance.
Pat
[quote]
1.1.1a.1.1.1.1.1 Hugh Lacy[19]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 31 Jul 1573[17]
Occ: lord of Midgely and Brearley Hall
Esq., of Brearley Hall, Halifax, co. York. [17]
'Hughe Lacie, esquier', will of John Savile of New Hall, his
brother-in-law, dated 1 April 1540 (proven 30 Jul 1545)
[Halifax Wills Vol. II:4-5[20]]
'Mr. Hughe Lacy', one of the godparents of his grandson John
Blithman, 14 Nov 1557 [record of baptism, from the parish
registers of Halifax, Co. York, 1538-1593, p. 108][21]
Will of Hugh Lacye of Midgeley, dated 20 September 1570,
proved July 31, 1573 by Executors named. '[22]
__________________________________
identified as father of Margaret Lacy, wife of William Farrar in
Visitation of Hertfordshire, 1634 (HSP 22:53[23], states 'John
Lacy of Brearley', correction to '[Hugh]')[24] and Visitation
of Surrey, 1623 (states erroneously 'Margerett d. of John Lacy
of Brerely in com. York')[23]
the following derived from the IPM of Hugh Lacy,
Esq. of Brearley, co. Yorks. :
' Sutcliffe lists among other property of Hugh Lacy
given in his Inquisition Post Mortem, in 1573, besides
Brearley Hall, a number of other estates, messuages,
etc., part of the Manor of Midgley, messuages in
Brearley, the Manor of Cromwell Bottom and other lands
in Southowram, one-sixth of the Manor of Ethesthorpe,
lands in Northowram and Stanfield; also the Manor of
Wakefield in Socage. '
[Holmes, The Farrar's Island Family and Its English
Ancestry[17] (Baltimore: Gateway Press, 1986), pp. 90-91,
cites Tom Sutcliffe, The Brearley Halls,
Upper and Lower, in Transactions of the Halifax Antiquarian
Society (Sept. 1922), IV:131.]
' 12. Hugh Lacy = Agnes Savile ' [RD 600, p. 316[12]]
Spouse: Agnes Savile
Father: Nicholas Savile, of Newhall in Eland, co. Yorks. (-<1527)
Mother: Margery Wilkinson
Children: Margaret Lacy(->1571)
John Lacy, Esq. of Brearley(-<1585)
Alice, m. John Holdsworth of Astay, co. Yorks.
Agnes, m. Christopher Deighton
Ellen, m. John Dean of Deanhouse
Gilbert (->1573)
Elizabeth, m. Jasper Blithman of Newlaithes,
co. Yorks.
1.1.1a.1.1.1.1.1.1 Margaret Lacy[17],[24],[23]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 28 Dec 1571[25]
'Margaret, my daughter, now wife of William Farrer', will of Hugh
Lacy [proven 31 July 1573: text in Holmes[17]]
' Margaret, da. of John [Hugh] Lacy of Brearley. ' [HSP 22:53[23]]
GENEALOGICS #I00387129[26]
identified as 'Margaret, daughter of Hugh Lacy, of Brearley, co.
York' [pedigree of Farrer, of Ingleborough, co. York, County
Families Vol. I - West Riding[19]]
cf. Foster, County Families of York, West Riding, Vol.
I - pedigree of Farrer, of Ingleborough, co. York[19]
HSP 22:53[23]
G. B. Roberts, pp. 316-7[12]
Spouse: William Farrar
Death: bef 3 Apr 1573[25]
Father: Henry Ferror (-<1549)
Mother: Agnes (->1548)
Children: Agnes, m. Richard Wade of Quickstavers
in Sowerby, co. Yorks.
Margaret, m. Edward Wilkinson
Henry Farrar, of Ewood in Midgley(-<1610)
John Farrar(<1541-<1628)
Robert (<1548-)
Hugh Farrar, of Wadsworth, co. Yorks.
Ellen
Mary (<1556-), m. Henry Horsfall
1.1.1a.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 John Farrar
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 26 May 1628[27],[17]
Birth: bef 6 Mar 1541[28]
Bapt: 6 Mar 1541, Halifax, co. Yorks.[28],[21]
Esquire, of Croxton, co. Lincoln., and St. Mary, Aldermanbury, London
' John Farrar of Croxton, co. Linc., 2 son. = Sissely, da. of William
Kelk of Barnaby [Barnet by the Wold], co. Linc. ' [HSP 22:53[23]]
record of baptism, from the parish registers of Halifax, Co. York,
1538-1593 [Church of England. Parish Church of Halifax
(Yorkshire)[28]], p. 21:
' Item Johes. fil. Wl. Farror de Myggeley eodem [sexto] die. '[21]
'John Farror of Midgeley ', party (together with his brother Hugh) to
a grant dated 13 Jan 1577/78:
' Bargain and sale, dated 13 Jan 1578:
Parties 1. John Hutchonson of Kyngeston upon Hull
haberdasher and Margaret Brodley his wife
(daughter and co-heir of John Brodley bastard
son of William Brodley of Conanley in Craven, deceased)
2. John Farror of Midgeley and Hugh Farror of the same
clothiers.
Conson. £60.
Parcels a moiety of a messuage in Skircote then in occupation of
Henry Ferror of Ewwood in Mydgelay gent., near Hallyfax broke with
all lands &c. pertaining thereto in Skircote and Southowrome; also
a moiety of 2 fulling mills lately converted to 2 corn mills situate
on the aforesaid lands with all appurtenances.
Habendum. to (2) and the heirs and assigns of John Farror.
Covenants.
for further assurance, for title to convey, warranty against all
manner of persons and people, for quiet enjoyment, to hand over
deeds &c. and that (1) should enter into a bond for 200 marks for
due performance of this deed. ' [2 seal tags with traces of wax,
signature of Hugh Farror. No witnesses.] - A2A, West
Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds: Temple Newsam Collection
[WYL100/AR - WYL100/HX], WYL100/HX/A/83[4]
armorial bearings of 'John Ferrar of Croxton' confirmed as
appertaining to him by William Camden, Clarenceux King of Arms
in 1609[29]
inherited lands of Ewood and Midgley from brother Henry on his
death, July 1610[17]
will dated Nov 14, 1627, proven May 28, 1628 [The Pedigree of
Farrar[25], and A. Holmes, p. 51[17], citing PCC 50, the will
of ' John Farrer the elder of London, Esquire, of Aldermanbury
Parish ' ]
NOTE: identified erroneously in pedigree of Farrer, of Ingleborough,
co. York (County Pedigrees) as 'John Farrer, of Elfaburgh Hall
[ca 1537]'[19] based on said John Farrer being named one of the
supervisors of Henry Farrer's will, 25 June 1548[20]
cf. HSP 22:53, pedigree of Farrar of Great Amwell.[23]
Foster, pedigree of Farrer of Ingleborough, co. York.[19]
Holmes, pp. 49-52[17]
Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 303[2]
Roberts, pp. 316-7[12]
The Descent of Dr. Lillian K. Farrar, M.D.[29]
Spouse: Cecily Kelke[30]
Birth: bef 1552[31]
Father: William Kelke, mercer of London (~1520-<1552)
Mother: Thomasine Skerne (-<1566)
Marr: 25 Aug 1574, St. Sepulchre's without Newgate, London[30]
Children: Henry (-1672)
John (<1581-<1649)
William (<1583-<1637)
Humfrey
1.1.1a.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 William Farrar[27]
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 28 Apr 1583, Croxton, Lincolnshire[27]
Death: bef 11 Jun 1637[17]
Bapt: 28 Apr 1583, Croxton, Lincolnshire[17]
Occ: planter; member, Council for Virginia 1626 -[32]
of Hoddesdon, Bloxborne and Amwell, co. Herts., and 'Farrar's Island',
Henrico Co., Virginia
' 3. William. ' [Visitation of Herfordshire, pedigree of Farrer,
HSP 22:53[23]]
' William Farer 1623 ', 3rd son [HSP 43, Visitations of Surrey,
1623 - pedigree of Farrar[24]]
arrived in Virginia on the Neptune with Lord de la Warr, August 1618[27]
' Willliam fferrar ', res. at 'Jordans Journey', Virginia
on 16 Feb 1623/24 : appointed as attorney resident there with
family of Cecily, widow of Samuel Jordan, muster of 23
Jan 1623/24[32] :
' The MUSTER of m' WILLIAM FERRAR & m's JORDAN
WILLIAM FERRAR aged 31 yeares in the Neptune in August 1618
SISLEY JORDAN aged 24 yeres in the Swan in August 1610
Jordans Jorney. Charles Cittie
MARY JORDAN her daughter aged 3 yeares ttt borne heare.
MARGRETT JORDAN aged 1 yeare
TEMPERANCE BALEY aged 7 yeares
Servant's
WILLIAM DAWSON aged 25 yeres in the Discouery March 1621
ROBERT TURNER aged 26 yeres in the Tryall June 1619
JOHN HELY aged 24 yeares in the Charles November 1621
ROGER PRESTON aged 21 yeares in the Discouerie March 1621
ROBERT MANUELL aged 25 yeres in the Charles November 1621
THOMAS WILLIAMS aged 24 yeares in the Dutic May 1618
RICHARD JOHNSON aged 22 yeares in the Southampton 1622
WILLIAM HATFEILD aged in the Southampton 1622
JOHN PEAD 35 yeares old in the same Shipp
JOHN FREAME aged 16 yeares in the
same Shipp ' [ Muster of 21 Jan 1624/5[33],[34] ]
married Cecily, before 14 Nov 1627 (date of father's will) and
probably before 1626.[17]
d. before 11 June 1637:
'Willm. Farrar', "sonn and heire of Willm. Farrar late of Henrico,
decd.", had grant dated 11 June 1637 of '..2000 acres eastly.
upon the Gleab land of Varina, &c. westerly to the bottom
of ---- island.' [Virginia State Land Office, Land Office Patents
No. 1, 1623-1643 (v.1 & 2), p. 437 (Reel 1)][36]
3rd husband of Cecily _____ Jordan.[32]
cf. Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry, p. 303[2],
Holmes, pp. 49-52, 111-125[17]
Spouse: Cecily (Reynolds ?)[32]
Birth: ca 1599[32],[17]
Death: aft 1629
Marr: bef Jun 1627[17]
Children: William (~1627->1676)
John (->1684)
Cecily
1. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
2. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and
Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 2004.
3. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.), 'The Visitation of Yorkshire
in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
4. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
5. Paul C. Reed, "Driby," Society of Medieval Genealogy (@rootsweb.com),
22 June 1999, posted on GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
6. "Yorkshire Subsidy Rolls (Poll Tax) for the year 1379," transcribed
from The Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical Journals,
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Mi ... field.html
7. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England
Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
8. Alice Edith Middleton MacDonald, "The Fortunes of a Family: Bosville
of New Hall, Gunthwaite and Thorpe through Nine Centuries,"
Edinburgh: privately printed by T. and A. Constable, 1927, .pdf
image files provided by Genealogy.com http://www.genealogy.com.
9. Douglas Richardson, "Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and
Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 2005.
10. William Brown, F.S.A., ed., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. II," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series, Record series vol. L - 1914.
11. "James L. Hansen," The Ancestry of Joan Legard, Grandmother of the
Rev. William Skepper/Skipper of Boston, Massachusetts, The American
Genealogist, Vol. 69, No. 3 (July 1994), pp. 129-139.
12. Gary Boyd Roberts, "The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the
American Colonies," Baltimore: Genealogical Pub. Co., 2004.
13. Charles Travis Clay, F.S.A., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. VI," The
Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, printed for the
Society, 1930, Record series vol. LXXVI - for the year 1930.
14. J. Horsfall Turner, "The History of Brighouse, Rastrick, and
Hipperholme," Bingley, Yorkshire: Thomas Harrison and Sons, 1893,
.pdf image files provided by Ancestry.com http://www.ancestry.com.
15. John P. Ravilious, "Plantagenet Descent: Edward I to Symmes of
Barnsley," 26 April 2005, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, re: proof
of descent from Edward I of England to William Farrar the emigrant,
through Symmes of Barnsley and Lacy of Brearley.
16. M. J. Stanley Price, M.A., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. X," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series, printed for the Society,
1945, Record series vol. CXX - for the year 1953.
17. Alvahn Holmes, "The Farrar's Island Family and its English Ancestry,"
Baltimore: Gateway Press, Inc., 1972, reprinted 1986, cites Rev.
C. V. Collier, 'Documents at "Burton Agnes" ', East Riding Society,
vols. 18-19 (1911-1912), providing abstracts of 6 deeds relating to
Kelke and identifying members of the Kelke family.
18. "Some Early Lacys," E. Lacey, Rootsweb World Connect Project
(www. rootsweb.com), extracted 23 Aug 2000,
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~elacey/delacy_wbg/
19. "Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire," compiled by Joseph
Foster, W. Wilfred Head, London, 2 vols.: 1874.
20. J. W. Clay, F.S.A., and E. W. Crossley, editors, "Halifax Wills,"
(privately printed for the editor), Vol. I (1389 to 1544); Vol II
(1545-1559).
21. "Halifax Parish Registers, 1538-1593," Halifax, Yorkshire Baptisms,
1538-1593, image courtesy Ancestry.com.
22. "Will of Hugh Lacye, Esq. of Brearley," dated 20 Sept 1570, proved
31 July 1573, Ruth Keys Clark, ruthkeysclark@yahoo.com,
http://members.tripod.com/~Caryl_Williams/HLacye.html
text provided by Tom Sutcliffe (130-1) Halifax Antiquarium Society,
1 Sept 1922 “ The Brearley Halls, Upper and Lowerâ€
-
Gjest
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
Thanks, Dave, for the great post. Much appreciated. It's fascinating
to see the sundry and various descents from Rohese of Boulogne to each
immigrant - they're all so unique. The second descent you posted
through the Fauconberge, Engaine, Pabenham, and Cheyne families is very
distinctive. By all means, please post more descents to other
immigrants if you have them.
(snip)
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Although the leap from the Haseldens to the Burgoynes appears faulty in
this case, it might be of interest to note that through the Pabenhams
we get to The Queen (and thus Prince Charles and Prince William) thus:
9. Katherine de Pabenham m (1) Sir William Cheyne; m (2) Thomas
Aylesbury
10. Isabel Aylesbury
11. Catherine Chaworth
12. Thomas Leake
13. Elizabeth Leake
14. Elizabeth ("Bess of") Hardwick
15. William, 1st Earl of Devonshire
16. William, 2nd Earl of Devonshire
17. William, 3rd Earl of Devonshire
18. William, 1st Duke of Devonshire
19. William, 2nd Duke of Devonshire
20. William, 3rd Duke of Devonshire
21. William, 4th Duke of Devonshire
22. Lady Dorothy Cavendish
23. Lord William Cavendish-Bentinck
24. Nina Cavendish-Bentinck
25. Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
26. Queen Elizabeth II
27. Charles, Prince of Wales
28. Prince William of Wales
MAR
While
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
Many thanks for this line. By checking I found I have Katherine twice in my
system, once with each husband. I have changed that now. OK Katherine is an
ancestor of Prince William but she is also an ancestor of
Gary Boyd Roberts - Brice Clagett - Ian Fettes - Tony Hoskins - Tim
Powys-Lybbe - John Ravilious - John Steele Gordon
and Hugh Grant - Rachel Ward - Audrey Hepburn - Gloria Grahame (Oscar
winner) - Randolph Scott
and Prince Albert of Monaco - Sarah Ferguson - Aga Khan IV - Camilla of
Cornwall
and Gateways (incomplete) Hon. George Percy, Margaret Brent, Col. Giles
Brent, Col. Thomas Ligon, Rev. Edward Foliot, Katherine Deighton, Jane
Deighton, Frances Deighton, Jane Lowe, Capt. John West, William Rodney, Afra
Harlestoln, William Strother, Elizabeth Hagburne, Amy Wyllys, Thomas
Hamilton, Nicholas Sewall, Charles Calvert 3rd Lord Baltimore, Herbert
Pelham, Nuriel Gurdon, Capt. Francis Champernoun, Mary Launce, Essex Beville
This is showing yet another genealogical spiderweb connecting people all
over the world.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:30 AM
Subject: Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
<snip>
system, once with each husband. I have changed that now. OK Katherine is an
ancestor of Prince William but she is also an ancestor of
Gary Boyd Roberts - Brice Clagett - Ian Fettes - Tony Hoskins - Tim
Powys-Lybbe - John Ravilious - John Steele Gordon
and Hugh Grant - Rachel Ward - Audrey Hepburn - Gloria Grahame (Oscar
winner) - Randolph Scott
and Prince Albert of Monaco - Sarah Ferguson - Aga Khan IV - Camilla of
Cornwall
and Gateways (incomplete) Hon. George Percy, Margaret Brent, Col. Giles
Brent, Col. Thomas Ligon, Rev. Edward Foliot, Katherine Deighton, Jane
Deighton, Frances Deighton, Jane Lowe, Capt. John West, William Rodney, Afra
Harlestoln, William Strother, Elizabeth Hagburne, Amy Wyllys, Thomas
Hamilton, Nicholas Sewall, Charles Calvert 3rd Lord Baltimore, Herbert
Pelham, Nuriel Gurdon, Capt. Francis Champernoun, Mary Launce, Essex Beville
This is showing yet another genealogical spiderweb connecting people all
over the world.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:30 AM
Subject: Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
<snip>
Although the leap from the Haseldens to the Burgoynes appears faulty in
this case, it might be of interest to note that through the Pabenhams
we get to The Queen (and thus Prince Charles and Prince William) thus:
9. Katherine de Pabenham m (1) Sir William Cheyne; m (2) Thomas
Aylesbury
10. Isabel Aylesbury
11. Catherine Chaworth
12. Thomas Leake
13. Elizabeth Leake
14. Elizabeth ("Bess of") Hardwick
15. William, 1st Earl of Devonshire
16. William, 2nd Earl of Devonshire
17. William, 3rd Earl of Devonshire
18. William, 1st Duke of Devonshire
19. William, 2nd Duke of Devonshire
20. William, 3rd Duke of Devonshire
21. William, 4th Duke of Devonshire
22. Lady Dorothy Cavendish
23. Lord William Cavendish-Bentinck
24. Nina Cavendish-Bentinck
25. Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
26. Queen Elizabeth II
27. Charles, Prince of Wales
28. Prince William of Wales
MAR
-
Cliff Watts
Re: Rohese de Boulogne to William Leete
Leo named in the Gateways group Nuriel Gurdon. I'm sure his finger slipped,
because he clearly intended to list Muriel.
Cliff Watts
because he clearly intended to list Muriel.
Cliff Watts