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Gjest

Re: Doug's Magna Charta

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 jul 2005 09:05:31

Where do I order it?

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Doug's Magna Charta

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 26 jul 2005 09:48:25

jonky@aol.com wrote:
< Where do I order it?

Dear John ~

You can order the book, Magna Carta Ancestry, direct through me. I
have your e-mail address and will contact you privately by e-mail
regarding ordering particulars.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Doug's Magna Charta

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 26 jul 2005 10:41:49

Dear Barbara ~

I've been shipping Magna Carta Ancestry books out to customers for the
past month. I have your order in hand to process tomorrow. It should
take a week to 10 days to arrive. In the meantime, please know that I
very much appreciate your patience and your book order.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


"Barbara P. Smith" wrote:
< Has anyone heard yet when Doug is shipping his new book to those of
us
< who ordered in advance of the book's publication?
<
< Thanks!
<
< Barbara

Gjest

Re: Precocious Scotsman?

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 jul 2005 10:42:23

"John Higgins" wrote:
This version of the children of John "the Gentle" Grant, 4th of Freuchie, is
also in the 1999 edition of BP (sub Strathspey), but it is in conflict with
SP and other sources on the family, and I suspect BP is wrong in giving any
children to the 2nd wife.

SP explicitly says that all seven daughters of John Grant were by the 1st
wife Margaret Stewart, but is not specific as to the maternity of the two
sons. But a well-documented family history by Archibald Kennedy, Earl of
Cassillis, published im 1911 and titled "The Rulers of Strathspey: A
History of the Lairds of Grant and Earls of Seafield" follows SP with
respect to the daughters and also says that the two sons were by the 1st
wife also. In the case of the elder son Duncan, it cites a memorial stone
at his burial place which apparently states that he is the son of Margaret
Stewart. From the narrative in this source, Duncan seems clearly to have
been an adult by at least 1565 (3-4 years before his marriage) at which
point his father transferred some of his territories to him to manage.

So I guess Duncan wasn't quite so precocious a Scotsman... :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Precocious Scotsman?


According to Burke's Peerage 1938 page 2346

John Grant, 4th of Freuchie, 2nd of Rothiemurchus, died in 1585
he married (1) before February 1539 Lady Margaret Stewart of Atholl, she
died in 1555
they had one daughter Grizel
he married (2) before March 1558 Janet Leslie, widow of David Crichton
they had Duncan, Patrick, Barbara and six more daughters (I don't know
anything about these)

The question is about son Duncan

Duncan Grant, younger of Freuchie married 20 February 1569 Margaret
Mackintosh.

As he appears to be the eldest son by the second wife and we can only
guess when he was born, but 1560 does not seem a bad guess. That would make
him about eight or nine years old when he married. So far so good.

Margaret Mackintosh's father William Mackintosh, 15th chief, died in
August 1550. Which means Margaret was born around 1550, making her roughly
ten years older than Duncan.

Would they marry an 8 or 9 year old boy with a girl ten years older?

Is it possible that Duncan is by the first wife? Which would make him at
least five, but likely more years older and closer in age to his wife. Does
anyone know?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


I guess that John Grant's daughter Barbara probably remains by the
second marriage, however, as Barbara's husband Colin Cam Mackenzie was
himself the son of Elizabeth Stewart, daughter of John Earl of Atholl;
which would make them first cousins otherwise (I think).

Janet Leslie, Grant's second wife, was of rather unusual ancestry
though- daughter of George, 4th Earl of Rothes by his 1st- and 4th!-
wife (shades of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor) Margaret, natural
daughter of William 3rd lord Crichton and Margaret, daughter of king
James II (so also a descendant of Edward III). Barbara now looks to be
the only one with this line, but she and Colin Mackenzie have many
descendants.

Matthew

Julian Richards

Re: England's/Britain's Homosexual Kings

Legg inn av Julian Richards » 26 jul 2005 11:02:00

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:36:23 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

I'm looking forward to watching the first homosexual Canadian and
British Generals assume their commands.

This is going to be Great Fun to watch from the United States.

Bring It On!

During WW2 there was a senior British tank commander in the desert
campaign who wore a pink silk scarf whilst riding around in his tank.
Rather than being noted for his personal life, he had the reputation
of being one of the best at his job.

The name escapes me, bonus points to anyone who can provide a
reference.


--

Julian Richards
medieval "at" richardsuk.f9.co.uk

http://www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk
Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV"

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

Gjest

Re: Precocious Scotsman?

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 jul 2005 11:47:23

Thanks for letting me down gently, Leo- a couple of thoughts below,
though.

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Matthew,

I think I have to disappoint you :-) According to Burke'se Extinct Peerage
1866 page 346 Colin Mackenzie married the eldest daughter of John Grant. Her
mother is not mentioned nor in SP is her mother mentioned in the Mackenzie
pages. And as SP (see below message) explicitly states all daughters to be
by the first wife, I think we have to accept that.

Fair enough. If she was the eldest daughter then it seems to be
clinched; and of course a first cousin marriage wasn't such a problem
by then, which was the main reason I was sticking with the other
theory.

Yes Barbara has a fair number of descendants, but do you think that Janet
Leslie is the only one who could have continued this fascinating
Crichton/Royal Stewart line?
That is not the case, amongst the descendants of the line you can find Lady
Diana Spencer and Sarah Ferguson, as well as Gateway Ancestors James Boyd,
James Irving, Sir Alexander Nisbet, Lady Christina Stewart, Charles
Stirling, Robert Rollo and no doubt more.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

I just had a look at your lines on Genealogics and see that the
remaining descents would be through Helen Leslie, another daughter of
the 4th earl of Rothes. I understood her mother to be Agnes Somerville,
and presume I got that from SP- is this then not the case? I actually
hope I'm wrong! It would be a pity for this line to be a dead end.

Matthew

----- Original Message -----
From: <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: Precocious Scotsman?




"John Higgins" wrote:
This version of the children of John "the Gentle" Grant, 4th of Freuchie,
is
also in the 1999 edition of BP (sub Strathspey), but it is in conflict
with
SP and other sources on the family, and I suspect BP is wrong in giving
any
children to the 2nd wife.

SP explicitly says that all seven daughters of John Grant were by the 1st
wife Margaret Stewart, but is not specific as to the maternity of the two
sons. But a well-documented family history by Archibald Kennedy, Earl of
Cassillis, published im 1911 and titled "The Rulers of Strathspey: A
History of the Lairds of Grant and Earls of Seafield" follows SP with
respect to the daughters and also says that the two sons were by the 1st
wife also. In the case of the elder son Duncan, it cites a memorial
stone
at his burial place which apparently states that he is the son of
Margaret
Stewart. From the narrative in this source, Duncan seems clearly to have
been an adult by at least 1565 (3-4 years before his marriage) at which
point his father transferred some of his territories to him to manage.

So I guess Duncan wasn't quite so precocious a Scotsman... :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Precocious Scotsman?


According to Burke's Peerage 1938 page 2346

John Grant, 4th of Freuchie, 2nd of Rothiemurchus, died in 1585
he married (1) before February 1539 Lady Margaret Stewart of Atholl,
she
died in 1555
they had one daughter Grizel
he married (2) before March 1558 Janet Leslie, widow of David Crichton
they had Duncan, Patrick, Barbara and six more daughters (I don't know
anything about these)

The question is about son Duncan

Duncan Grant, younger of Freuchie married 20 February 1569 Margaret
Mackintosh.

As he appears to be the eldest son by the second wife and we can only
guess when he was born, but 1560 does not seem a bad guess. That would
make
him about eight or nine years old when he married. So far so good.

Margaret Mackintosh's father William Mackintosh, 15th chief, died in
August 1550. Which means Margaret was born around 1550, making her
roughly
ten years older than Duncan.

Would they marry an 8 or 9 year old boy with a girl ten years older?

Is it possible that Duncan is by the first wife? Which would make him
at
least five, but likely more years older and closer in age to his wife.
Does
anyone know?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


I guess that John Grant's daughter Barbara probably remains by the
second marriage, however, as Barbara's husband Colin Cam Mackenzie was
himself the son of Elizabeth Stewart, daughter of John Earl of Atholl;
which would make them first cousins otherwise (I think).

Janet Leslie, Grant's second wife, was of rather unusual ancestry
though- daughter of George, 4th Earl of Rothes by his 1st- and 4th!-
wife (shades of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor) Margaret, natural
daughter of William 3rd lord Crichton and Margaret, daughter of king
James II (so also a descendant of Edward III). Barbara now looks to be
the only one with this line, but she and Colin Mackenzie have many
descendants.

Matthew


Leo van de Pas

Re: Precocious Scotsman?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 26 jul 2005 12:08:01

Dear Matthew,

I think I have to disappoint you :-) According to Burke'se Extinct Peerage
1866 page 346 Colin Mackenzie married the eldest daughter of John Grant. Her
mother is not mentioned nor in SP is her mother mentioned in the Mackenzie
pages. And as SP (see below message) explicitly states all daughters to be
by the first wife, I think we have to accept that.

Yes Barbara has a fair number of descendants, but do you think that Janet
Leslie is the only one who could have continued this fascinating
Crichton/Royal Stewart line?
That is not the case, amongst the descendants of the line you can find Lady
Diana Spencer and Sarah Ferguson, as well as Gateway Ancestors James Boyd,
James Irving, Sir Alexander Nisbet, Lady Christina Stewart, Charles
Stirling, Robert Rollo and no doubt more.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: Precocious Scotsman?



"John Higgins" wrote:
This version of the children of John "the Gentle" Grant, 4th of Freuchie,
is
also in the 1999 edition of BP (sub Strathspey), but it is in conflict
with
SP and other sources on the family, and I suspect BP is wrong in giving
any
children to the 2nd wife.

SP explicitly says that all seven daughters of John Grant were by the 1st
wife Margaret Stewart, but is not specific as to the maternity of the two
sons. But a well-documented family history by Archibald Kennedy, Earl of
Cassillis, published im 1911 and titled "The Rulers of Strathspey: A
History of the Lairds of Grant and Earls of Seafield" follows SP with
respect to the daughters and also says that the two sons were by the 1st
wife also. In the case of the elder son Duncan, it cites a memorial
stone
at his burial place which apparently states that he is the son of
Margaret
Stewart. From the narrative in this source, Duncan seems clearly to have
been an adult by at least 1565 (3-4 years before his marriage) at which
point his father transferred some of his territories to him to manage.

So I guess Duncan wasn't quite so precocious a Scotsman... :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Precocious Scotsman?


According to Burke's Peerage 1938 page 2346

John Grant, 4th of Freuchie, 2nd of Rothiemurchus, died in 1585
he married (1) before February 1539 Lady Margaret Stewart of Atholl,
she
died in 1555
they had one daughter Grizel
he married (2) before March 1558 Janet Leslie, widow of David Crichton
they had Duncan, Patrick, Barbara and six more daughters (I don't know
anything about these)

The question is about son Duncan

Duncan Grant, younger of Freuchie married 20 February 1569 Margaret
Mackintosh.

As he appears to be the eldest son by the second wife and we can only
guess when he was born, but 1560 does not seem a bad guess. That would
make
him about eight or nine years old when he married. So far so good.

Margaret Mackintosh's father William Mackintosh, 15th chief, died in
August 1550. Which means Margaret was born around 1550, making her
roughly
ten years older than Duncan.

Would they marry an 8 or 9 year old boy with a girl ten years older?

Is it possible that Duncan is by the first wife? Which would make him
at
least five, but likely more years older and closer in age to his wife.
Does
anyone know?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


I guess that John Grant's daughter Barbara probably remains by the
second marriage, however, as Barbara's husband Colin Cam Mackenzie was
himself the son of Elizabeth Stewart, daughter of John Earl of Atholl;
which would make them first cousins otherwise (I think).

Janet Leslie, Grant's second wife, was of rather unusual ancestry
though- daughter of George, 4th Earl of Rothes by his 1st- and 4th!-
wife (shades of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor) Margaret, natural
daughter of William 3rd lord Crichton and Margaret, daughter of king
James II (so also a descendant of Edward III). Barbara now looks to be
the only one with this line, but she and Colin Mackenzie have many
descendants.

Matthew


Gjest

Re: Precocious Scotsman?

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 jul 2005 13:01:29

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Thanks for letting me down gently, Leo- a couple of thoughts below,
though.

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Matthew,

I think I have to disappoint you :-) According to Burke'se Extinct Peerage
1866 page 346 Colin Mackenzie married the eldest daughter of John Grant. Her
mother is not mentioned nor in SP is her mother mentioned in the Mackenzie
pages. And as SP (see below message) explicitly states all daughters to be
by the first wife, I think we have to accept that.

Fair enough. If she was the eldest daughter then it seems to be
clinched; and of course a first cousin marriage wasn't such a problem
by then, which was the main reason I was sticking with the other
theory.

Yes Barbara has a fair number of descendants, but do you think that Janet
Leslie is the only one who could have continued this fascinating
Crichton/Royal Stewart line?
That is not the case, amongst the descendants of the line you can find Lady
Diana Spencer and Sarah Ferguson, as well as Gateway Ancestors James Boyd,
James Irving, Sir Alexander Nisbet, Lady Christina Stewart, Charles
Stirling, Robert Rollo and no doubt more.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

I just had a look at your lines on Genealogics and see that the
remaining descents would be through Helen Leslie, another daughter of
the 4th earl of Rothes. I understood her mother to be Agnes Somerville,
and presume I got that from SP- is this then not the case? I actually
hope I'm wrong! It would be a pity for this line to be a dead end.

Ah, it seems that Janet and Helen are given as daughters of Margaret
Crichton in SP and as daughters of Agnes Somerville by Burke's; while
the daughters of Agnes per SP are attributed to Margaret by Burke. No
wonder it's confused, they seem to say the opposite on everything here!
So, assuming that SP is always to be preferred, that does indeed give
many, many descents for this James II line. I'll amend my scribblings
accordingly.

Matthew

----- Original Message -----
From: <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: Precocious Scotsman?




"John Higgins" wrote:
This version of the children of John "the Gentle" Grant, 4th of Freuchie,
is
also in the 1999 edition of BP (sub Strathspey), but it is in conflict
with
SP and other sources on the family, and I suspect BP is wrong in giving
any
children to the 2nd wife.

SP explicitly says that all seven daughters of John Grant were by the 1st
wife Margaret Stewart, but is not specific as to the maternity of the two
sons. But a well-documented family history by Archibald Kennedy, Earl of
Cassillis, published im 1911 and titled "The Rulers of Strathspey: A
History of the Lairds of Grant and Earls of Seafield" follows SP with
respect to the daughters and also says that the two sons were by the 1st
wife also. In the case of the elder son Duncan, it cites a memorial
stone
at his burial place which apparently states that he is the son of
Margaret
Stewart. From the narrative in this source, Duncan seems clearly to have
been an adult by at least 1565 (3-4 years before his marriage) at which
point his father transferred some of his territories to him to manage.

So I guess Duncan wasn't quite so precocious a Scotsman... :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Precocious Scotsman?


According to Burke's Peerage 1938 page 2346

John Grant, 4th of Freuchie, 2nd of Rothiemurchus, died in 1585
he married (1) before February 1539 Lady Margaret Stewart of Atholl,
she
died in 1555
they had one daughter Grizel
he married (2) before March 1558 Janet Leslie, widow of David Crichton
they had Duncan, Patrick, Barbara and six more daughters (I don't know
anything about these)

The question is about son Duncan

Duncan Grant, younger of Freuchie married 20 February 1569 Margaret
Mackintosh.

As he appears to be the eldest son by the second wife and we can only
guess when he was born, but 1560 does not seem a bad guess. That would
make
him about eight or nine years old when he married. So far so good.

Margaret Mackintosh's father William Mackintosh, 15th chief, died in
August 1550. Which means Margaret was born around 1550, making her
roughly
ten years older than Duncan.

Would they marry an 8 or 9 year old boy with a girl ten years older?

Is it possible that Duncan is by the first wife? Which would make him
at
least five, but likely more years older and closer in age to his wife.
Does
anyone know?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


I guess that John Grant's daughter Barbara probably remains by the
second marriage, however, as Barbara's husband Colin Cam Mackenzie was
himself the son of Elizabeth Stewart, daughter of John Earl of Atholl;
which would make them first cousins otherwise (I think).

Janet Leslie, Grant's second wife, was of rather unusual ancestry
though- daughter of George, 4th Earl of Rothes by his 1st- and 4th!-
wife (shades of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor) Margaret, natural
daughter of William 3rd lord Crichton and Margaret, daughter of king
James II (so also a descendant of Edward III). Barbara now looks to be
the only one with this line, but she and Colin Mackenzie have many
descendants.

Matthew


Ken Ozanne

Re: Doug's Magna Carta

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 26 jul 2005 13:28:01

Doug,
I sent two emails much earlier in the year when you made your offer but
have heard nothing. Did you get them? I'd still like to pick up the book in
Salt Lake if that is possible. I may very well be there for the September
Genealogical Conference, though I won't be a participant.

In passing, I was very pleased to see your apology to Leo and various
other apologies that seem to have happened in consequence.

Best,
Ken

Thur

Re: England's/Britain's Homosexual Kings

Legg inn av Thur » 26 jul 2005 14:13:05

"Julian Richards" <see@sig.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7b2ce15dukqvq3devrhlqdr8bqkhjqo425@4ax.com...
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:36:23 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

I'm looking forward to watching the first homosexual Canadian and
British Generals assume their commands.

This is going to be Great Fun to watch from the United States.

Bring It On!

During WW2 there was a senior British tank commander in the desert
campaign who wore a pink silk scarf whilst riding around in his tank.
Rather than being noted for his personal life, he had the reputation
of being one of the best at his job.

The name escapes me, bonus points to anyone who can provide a
reference.


--

Julian Richards
You may be interested to know that from experimentation with

different colours, it was found that in the desert, pink was the
best to hide objects from aerial observation.
I suspect though, that day-glo pink wasn't what they were on
about.
I cannot remember where I heard this. Anyone heard it too?
--
Thur

a.spencer3

Re: England's/Britain's Homosexual Kings

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 26 jul 2005 14:40:52

"Thur" <no-personals@z.com> wrote in message
news:BFqFe.8992$YL5.4288@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
You may be interested to know that from experimentation with
different colours, it was found that in the desert, pink was the
best to hide objects from aerial observation.
I suspect though, that day-glo pink wasn't what they were on
about.
I cannot remember where I heard this. Anyone heard it too?
--

It's still a very live subject.
But pink isn't 'the best'. It's just one of numerous colours (and patterns)
that can be used in deserts, especially for disguising vehicles.
Deserts are, in fact, very different to each other in colours of sand (and
they're not all sand!), colours of other ground types, and also in patterns
(from smooth monochrome to varying ground/rock patterns of 'blotches', wavy
lines, etc.).
Camouflage colours for deserts can range from an almost white sand colour to
solid black, largely with creamy yellows/pinks/light oranges in between -
or, indeed, combinations of these.
Obviously, camouflage nets, local brush, etc. can be also added.
The eventual choice depends on which desert & season, whether observation is
to be 'hidden' from land or air, etc.
This applies to personal camouflage nets etc. also.

Surreyman

Jerry W. Murphy

Re: Doug's Magna Charta

Legg inn av Jerry W. Murphy » 26 jul 2005 18:26:02

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara P. Smith" <bpsmith@viptx.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 11:15 PM
Subject: Doug's Magna Charta


Has anyone heard yet when Doug is shipping his new book to those of us who
ordered in advance of the book's publication?

Thanks!

Barbara

______________________________


I'm wondering about that myself. Actually I'm beginning to wonder if my copy
has been lost in the mail since I've been seeing comments about the book for
more than a month on this list.

Jerry W. Murphy
jwm_genealogy@hotmail.com

Chris Phillips

Re: Respnse on Early Marriages

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 27 jul 2005 16:24:51

Will Johnson wrote:
And to counter this argument :) just because that's the way I am ...
My own ancestor in 1635 was supposed to get married and the church forbade
it
because "she has not yet reached the age of 12". So they waited until she
was 12 and then married her.
This poster does not say about which era he is speaking.

Joan, the elder daughter of John Argentein, was presumably married about
1317-8, when an 'Aid for marrying the lord's eldest daughter' is recorded in
the accounts of the Argenteins' manor of Melbourn, Cambridgeshire.

From the later evidence of inquisitions post mortem, Joan was born about
1310. Her younger sister Elizabeth was born about 1312. In 1317-8, the
prospective husbands of both girls, John and William Boteler, seem to have
been living at melborun, according to the accounts.

Chris Phillips

Gjest

Re: Respnse on Early Marriages

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 jul 2005 17:08:01

In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:00:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
butlergrt@aol.com writes:


So to answer the question ,
yes, they were married off young and as arranged marriages for land,
money, titles or for alliances, either at the families discretion or the
kings. Hope this helps, makes interesting reading alos.

And to counter this argument :) just because that's the way I am ...
My own ancestor in 1635 was supposed to get married and the church forbade it
because "she has not yet reached the age of 12". So they waited until she
was 12 and then married her.
This poster does not say about which era he is speaking.
Will Johnson

John Higgins

Re: "Postal Havoc"

Legg inn av John Higgins » 28 jul 2005 06:08:01

Mr. Hines: You should get your facts straight before you post. Check out this posting from Doug Richardson dated 5/27:

The prepublication price is available through June 1st. After that, the regular sales price will be in effect.

[end of quote]

June 1st was almost two months ago.....

As I said before, caveat emptor....

**********************
[Hines posted:]

Douglas Richardson should indeed get cracking on shipping any remaining
books out -- if people sent him an order and payment by 30 June 2005, as
he requested, for the pre-publication price of $60.

DSH

Gjest

Re: Who is Rohese ? Fw: Re: Rohese, wife of Sir Richard de L

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jul 2005 06:10:02

<< > Good Afternoon,
I believe that Rohese, (Rohaise) was the widow of the earl of essex,
daughter of Alberic de Vere, Lord Justiciary,temp Henry I,married 2nd,
Richard de Lucy,Constable of Falaise in Normandy for King Stephen, 1162
appointed Lord Justiciary of England,Henry I, 1172 appointed 2nd time High
Justiciary marching into Scotland with Humphrey de Bohun. Richard De Lucy
had 2 sons, Geoffrey and Herbert, and two daughters, Maude married Walter
fitz Robert, ancestors of the Fitzwalters, and Rohais, his other daughter,
married Fulbert de Dover, Lord of Chilham in Kent.
Data from "The Battle Abbey Roll" vol. II,p.128 and vol III,198-204 by the
Duchess of Cleveland, printed London, by John Murry, Albemarle Street,
1889. Hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Emmett

Emmett this source seems a little confused, since we now have a primary
document in which Rohais of Dover asserts that Richard and Rohesia are her
grandparents, not her parents. Unless you believe there were two "Rohais of Dover" 's
one generation apart.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Who is Rohese ? Fw: Re: Rohese, wife of Sir Richard de L

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jul 2005 06:10:03

In a message dated 7/27/05 3:00:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cgp@medievalgenealogy.org.uk writes:

<< > After this great message the obvious next step is to look in CP. Volume V
pages 113-116

Geoffrey de Mandeville, 1st Earl of Essex married Rohese sister of Aubrey
1st Earl of Oxford and daughter of Aubrey de Ver, Chamberlain of England,
by
Adelise, daughter of Gilbert FitzRichard de Clare. After Geoffrey de
Mandeville died, Rohese married Pasyn de Beauchamp with whom she founded
the
Priory of Chicksand where she was buried. There is a remark she survived
her
son the 2nd Earl of Essex who died in 1166.

The question is, was this Rohese then married three times? In CP Volume
XIV
under Essex is no additional information.

My question is what reason "butlergrt" has to identify Rohese, wife of
Richard de Lucy, with Rohese, the wife of Geoffrey de Mandeville (d. before
Michaelmas 1144).

Chris Phillips >>

Rather it would appear to me that we have two distinct and different Rohese'
here
One the wife of Richard de Lucy
The other the wife of Geoffrey de Mandeville.

Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: "Postal Havoc"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 jul 2005 06:38:35

O.K.

The argument is even better for those who have not received their
books -- MCA -- in the United States -- and who SENT their MONEY in ON
TIME.

Douglas Richardson should indeed get cracking on shipping any remaining
books out -- if people sent him an order and payment by 1 June 2005, as
he requested, for the pre-publication and shipping price of $60.

Douglas probably had to wait until GPC shipped him the copies. He
certainly didn't have them on June 1st to mail out and HE probably
received HIS copies by Media Mail.

THINK....

Of course people OVERSEAS may have to wait until two months AFTER
shipment for receipt, [particularly in Australia] as the books
reportedly go out as Media Mail.

THINK....

SHIPS ---- Slower than Aircraft....

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Doug's Magna Carta

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 28 jul 2005 09:29:56

Dear Ken ~

Thank you for your good post.

By all means, yes, I'd be delighted to meet you when you come to Salt
Lake City in September. And, yes, you can certainly pick up a book
when you are in town. I'll be working in the Heritage Creations booth
during the conference. Please be sure to stop by and say hello.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


Ken Ozanne wrote:
< Doug,
< I sent two emails much earlier in the year when you made your
offer but
< have heard nothing. Did you get them? I'd still like to pick up the
book in
< Salt Lake if that is possible. I may very well be there for the
September
< Genealogical Conference, though I won't be a participant.


< Best,
< Ken

Leo van de Pas

OT Richardson's Apology - So far

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 28 jul 2005 09:49:01

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Ozanne" <ken.ozanne@bigpond.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: Doug's Magna Carta


<snip>
In passing, I was very pleased to see your apology to Leo and various
other apologies that seem to have happened in consequence.

Best,
Ken

What I would like to ask Ken Ozanne is whether he thinks that the 'apology'
from Richardson was adequate or even appropriate.

The 'apology' came unexpected and I was taken by surprise. An apology should
come from a generous spirit willing to acknowledge past misdemeanours and
expressing regret for things said. As such I was hoping for a new beginning
or better the end of a dreadful one.

While willing to start at a more civil co-operation, others correctly
described the situation very differently and flawed:

As was pointed out by others, the apology was directed at my database, not
me. As this was pointed out and if Richardson did have an intention of
goodwill, I gave him time to reflect and show his goodwill by making a much
more appropriate and needed apology.

An apology not just to me but also to gen-med where he had totally destroyed
the atmosphere for everyone.

Richardson is willing to acknowledge a minor offence but demands to be let
off the hook for much more serious offences. Not just offences to me, also
to Peter Stewart and Tim Powys-Lybbe and definitely not forgetting the whole
of gen-med. Richardson, assisted by Hines, poisoned the atmosphere to a
dreadful degree.

If you read Mr. Richardson's apology, you will note that it extends only to
my database. There is almost nothing personal to it. However his insults
remain forever in the archives.

He apologised for something I had shrugged off as _an unfortunate choise of
words_ his more serious insults remain unacknowledged by Richardson.

Away from gen-med I help more people than on, which is why I take great
offence to his _I was fighting with everyone_ He made the remark, he needs
to prove it, or withdraw and apologise.

His tenacity in his pursuit of me because of an e-mail he maintained as
private and should not have been submitted to gen-med verged on the
maniacal. The person whose privacy I am supposed to have violated so far has
not complained. In any case the contents of that e-mail is very much open to
interpretatoion.

Am I asking Richardson for an apology? No, he offered one, but it was one
that was too little and too late.

Sadly Richardson has thrown away an opportunity to make peace, lasting
peace. As it is he allows the distrust of him and his motives to continue.

An apology without a generous attitude is no apology. Has Richardson shown
his true colours? I hope not.

Gjest

Re: "Postal Havoc"

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jul 2005 10:47:01

I recently received a letter from Vancouver Island which took three months to
arrive!

Also, I ordered some engine spares from the USA on a Tuesday over the
internet and they were delivered to me in the UK on Thursday (the same week)!

There is just no logic to it.

Rose

Gjest

Re: Medieval Ordinary of Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jul 2005 18:46:02

If you have not already done so, you may find Brian Timms site of use at

_http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20rolls%20of%20arms.htm_
(http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20r ... 20arms.htm)

as given by Chris Philip's superb site at

_http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html_
(http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html)

regards,
Adrian

Tim wrote;

<And your nearest friendly Good Library will, of course, have copies of
Volumes I and II ->

Ginny replied;

Thank you for this information, Tim. Is the title actually Medieval
Ordinary of Arms, Volume I and Volume II? What would I use in an
interlibrary lookup? Thanks in advance. ;-) Ginny

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 28 jul 2005 18:48:15

Dear Bonnie ~

Thank you for your good post.

I stated earlier that Sir Richard de Lucy and his wife, Rohese of
Boulogne, had five children, including two sons, Geoffrey and Godfrey,
Bishop of Winchester, and one daughter, Maud, wife of Walter Fitz
Robert.

In addition to the three children I named earlier, Sir Richard de Lucy
and his wife, Rohese, also had two daughters, Alice, wife of Odinel de
Umfreville, and Aveline, wife of Gilbert de Montfitchet.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

bonnie wrote:
If Richard de Lucy had only one daughter, Maud, then I need some help.
Who are the parents of Alice de Lucy (ca1129 - 1197) who m. Odinel de
Umfreville?

Thanks to someone who can set me straight,
Bonnie

bonnie

daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy

Legg inn av bonnie » 28 jul 2005 19:26:02

If Richard de Lucy had only one daughter, Maud, then I need some help.
Who are the parents of Alice de Lucy (ca1129 - 1197) who m. Odinel de
Umfreville?

Thanks to someone who can set me straight,
Bonnie

Ginny Wagner

RE: daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 28 jul 2005 19:45:02

<If Richard de Lucy had only one daughter, Maud, then I need some help.
Who are the parents of Alice de Lucy (ca1129 - 1197) who m. Odinel de
Umfreville?>


Domesday Descendants

de Lucy, Ricardus "... By his wife Roesia he was the father of Geoffrey de
Lucy, Godfrey, bishop of Winchester, Matilda, wife of Walter fitz Robert of
Dunmow, Alice, wife of Odinel de Umfravillena and Aveline, wife of Gilbert
de Montfichet."

;-) Ginny

-

Ginny Wagner

RE: Medieval Ordinary of Arms

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 28 jul 2005 21:04:01

Adrian, Thank you for this website -- was already familiar with Chris' which
is, as you say, superb. I decided to do a search on three lions rampant
which is the shield shown for the early Gorhams and, as I was searching the
page listing shields, I came to a Hue de Laval. I remembered that
Keats-Rohan had a sentence in Domesday that went: "The year of the marriage
itself, 1119, also saw Henry's resounding victory over Louis of France at
Bremule, the first datable appearance of Hugh of Laval in England, and the
appointment of the Manceau Geoffrey de Gorron as abbot of St. Albans." At
the time, I wondered about Laval and Gorron being in the same sentence and
now I have another tie -- the three lions rampant crest that will give me
another place to search besides the Ravillon key. How very interesting this
all is! ;-) Ginny

D. Spencer Hines

Re: "Postal Havoc"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 jul 2005 21:13:02

Strange Logic...

1. You don't indicate the category of mail.

2. If they were the same, your example would seem to prove that mail
service from the U.S. to the U.K. is a hell of a lot better than mail
service from Vancouver to the U.K.

Deus Vult.

DSH

<Maytree4@aol.com> wrote in message news:79.4a4823a7.3019f515@aol.com...

| I recently received a letter from Vancouver Island which took three
months to
| arrive!
|
| Also, I ordered some engine spares from the USA on a Tuesday over the
| internet and they were delivered to me in the UK on Thursday (the same
week)!
|
| There is just no logic to it.
|
| Rose

CE Wood

Re: Eustache II "Aux Grenons" Count of Boulogne

Legg inn av CE Wood » 28 jul 2005 22:02:36

Married: Abt 1036
Sources:
1036 [ES III #621]
um 1036 [ES II #78, ES III #657]
abt 1036 [Ref: Paget HRHCharles p8]
first marriage of Eustace [Wagner's PedigreeProgress #1]
second marriage of Goda [Shorter Cambridge Medieval History p382]

CE Wood


WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
I found a site http://genealogy.patp.us/conq/eustaceb.shm
which states (without source) that Eustache married Goda in 1050

Is there a source other than the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle which mentions this
marriage date ? In the ASC the only thing that I can find simply states, in
passing, 1052 [1051] "Eustache landed at Dover; he was married to King Edward's
sister."

But the "was" here does not necessarily imply that he was married at that
time, only that he was married at some time prior to that.

Also the site mentioned, at the top states that Goda was the widow of
Gauthier, Count of Mantes. However was she not the widow of Dreux, Count of Vexin
and before him the divorced wife of Siward Biornsson, Earl of Northumberland ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Eustache II "Aux Grenons" Count of Boulogne

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jul 2005 22:06:01

I found a site http://genealogy.patp.us/conq/eustaceb.shm
which states (without source) that Eustache married Goda in 1050

Is there a source other than the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle which mentions this
marriage date ? In the ASC the only thing that I can find simply states, in
passing, 1052 [1051] "Eustache landed at Dover; he was married to King Edward's
sister."

But the "was" here does not necessarily imply that he was married at that
time, only that he was married at some time prior to that.

Also the site mentioned, at the top states that Goda was the widow of
Gauthier, Count of Mantes. However was she not the widow of Dreux, Count of Vexin
and before him the divorced wife of Siward Biornsson, Earl of Northumberland ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Mark B

Re: "Postal Havoc"

Legg inn av Mark B » 28 jul 2005 23:02:01

--- "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
wrote:

snip
THINK....

Of course people OVERSEAS may have to wait until two
months AFTER
shipment for receipt, [particularly in Australia] as
the books
reportedly go out as Media Mail.

THINK....
snip


I THINK there's no such thing as overseas "Media
Mail." Perhaps you mean Economy (Surface).

That's what I THINK.

Mark Briscoe



____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 28 jul 2005 23:02:36

Dear Leo ~

I believe an examination of the primary records of this time period
will be quite helpful to you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
< What gives Rohese the surname/identification of de Boulogne? All I
have seen
< so far is that Richard de Lucy and his wife Rohese had the following
< children.........I have not seen her anywhere recorded as Rohese de
< Boulogne. Because Faramus is an uncle (great-uncle) to her children
it
< leaves the possibility they are half-siblings or uncle and niece.
<
< Should we jump to conclusions?
< Leo van de Pas

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Philip De Gai:Robert of Glouc.-Possible

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 28 jul 2005 23:07:40

Dear James ~

I believe that the mother of Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester, was a
member of the Bohun or Salisbury families of Wiltshire.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup Members,
< There has been a
suggestion that
< Philip de Gai was an illegitimate son of Robert de Caen, 1st Earl of

< Gloucester and Peter Stewart made the suggestion that perhaps He was
related to
< Gloucester through the latter`s mother .contemporary records refer to
Philip de Gai
< as a kinsman of Robert, Earl of Gloucester, that much is certain. It
would be
< nice if Peter`s suggestion were correct and further evidence were
discovered
< revealing the name of the Earl`s mother, which is currently unknown,
his
< surname" de Caen " suggests He was born in Normandy. One more rather
vague
< possibility is that Philip de Gai`s unknown spouse was a daughter of
Earl Robert.
< Sincerely,
< James W Cummings
< Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Philip De Gai:Robert of Glouc.-Possible

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jul 2005 23:17:03

Dear Newsgroup Members,
There has been a suggestion that
Philip de Gai was an illegitimate son of Robert de Caen, 1st Earl of
Gloucester and Peter Stewart made the suggestion that perhaps He was related to
Gloucester through the latter`s mother .contemporary records refer to Philip de Gai
as a kinsman of Robert, Earl of Gloucester, that much is certain. It would be
nice if Peter`s suggestion were correct and further evidence were discovered
revealing the name of the Earl`s mother, which is currently unknown, his
surname" de Caen " suggests He was born in Normandy. One more rather vague
possibility is that Philip de Gai`s unknown spouse was a daughter of Earl Robert.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Eustache II "Aux Grenons" Count of Boulogne

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 jul 2005 23:29:01

In a message dated 7/28/05 2:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wood_ce@msn.com
writes:

<< Married: Abt 1036
Sources:
1036 [ES III #621]
um 1036 [ES II #78, ES III #657]
abt 1036 [Ref: Paget HRHCharles p8]
first marriage of Eustace [Wagner's PedigreeProgress #1]
second marriage of Goda [Shorter Cambridge Medieval History p382] >>

Thank you for this contribution. I wonder what ES is basing this date on ?
That Dreux, Count of (or in) Vexin died in 1035 ? And therefore Goda was
remarried quickly after?
Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson royala

Time for a group hug

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 28 jul 2005 23:40:34

Dear Leo ~

If you're trying to goad me, Leo, it won't work. I apologized to you
last week and have no desire to start another argument with you. Let
us have peace on the newsgroup. It's time for a group hug, I think.

Now, where would you like to begin with your research on the Lucy and
Boulogne families?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
< What is helpful for _all_ is to quote which Primary Source _you_
obviously
< have seen and quote from it. This reeks too much of your other
statements in
< the past _I know the answer but to get it you must buy my book_
Surely you
< are not reverting to your old uncollegial self again?
<
<

John Brandon

Re: daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 jul 2005 23:40:52

Surely you are not reverting to your old uncollegial self again?

Possibly, but at least he is not becoming incoherent with rage.

Leo van de Pas

Re: daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 28 jul 2005 23:50:02

What gives Rohese the surname/identification of de Boulogne? All I have seen
so far is that Richard de Lucy and his wife Rohese had the following
children.........I have not seen her anywhere recorded as Rohese de
Boulogne. Because Faramus is an uncle (great-uncle) to her children it
leaves the possibility they are half-siblings or uncle and niece.

Should we jump to conclusions?
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy


Dear Bonnie ~

Thank you for your good post.

I stated earlier that Sir Richard de Lucy and his wife, Rohese of
Boulogne, had five children, including two sons, Geoffrey and Godfrey,
Bishop of Winchester, and one daughter, Maud, wife of Walter Fitz
Robert.

In addition to the three children I named earlier, Sir Richard de Lucy
and his wife, Rohese, also had two daughters, Alice, wife of Odinel de
Umfreville, and Aveline, wife of Gilbert de Montfitchet.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

bonnie wrote:
If Richard de Lucy had only one daughter, Maud, then I need some help.
Who are the parents of Alice de Lucy (ca1129 - 1197) who m. Odinel de
Umfreville?

Thanks to someone who can set me straight,
Bonnie


Leo van de Pas

Re: Philip De Gai:Robert of Glouc.-Possible

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 29 jul 2005 00:23:02

In my data base I have a thank you to Stewart Baldwin who only says the
unnamed mother of Robert de Caen was a relative of Philip Gai and Nigel son
of William.

----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: Philip De Gai:Robert of Glouc.-Possible


Dear James ~

I believe that the mother of Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester, was a
member of the Bohun or Salisbury families of Wiltshire.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Newsgroup Members,
There has been a
suggestion that
Philip de Gai was an illegitimate son of Robert de Caen, 1st Earl of

Gloucester and Peter Stewart made the suggestion that perhaps He was
related to
Gloucester through the latter`s mother .contemporary records refer to
Philip de Gai
as a kinsman of Robert, Earl of Gloucester, that much is certain. It
would be
nice if Peter`s suggestion were correct and further evidence were
discovered
revealing the name of the Earl`s mother, which is currently unknown,
his
surname" de Caen " suggests He was born in Normandy. One more rather
vague
possibility is that Philip de Gai`s unknown spouse was a daughter of
Earl Robert.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA


Leo van de Pas

Re: daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 29 jul 2005 00:28:01

What is helpful for _all_ is to quote which Primary Source _you_ obviously
have seen and quote from it. This reeks too much of your other statements in
the past _I know the answer but to get it you must buy my book_ Surely you
are not reverting to your old uncollegial self again?


----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy


Dear Leo ~

I believe an examination of the primary records of this time period
will be quite helpful to you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
What gives Rohese the surname/identification of de Boulogne? All I
have seen
so far is that Richard de Lucy and his wife Rohese had the following
children.........I have not seen her anywhere recorded as Rohese de
Boulogne. Because Faramus is an uncle (great-uncle) to her children
it
leaves the possibility they are half-siblings or uncle and niece.

Should we jump to conclusions?
Leo van de Pas


butlergrt

Re:Re: de Lucys daughter(s)

Legg inn av butlergrt » 29 jul 2005 00:34:55

Good Evening,
As it is written, right or no,"This powerful baron had two sons,Geoffrey
and Herbert(Godfrey); and two daughters, Maude, married to Walter Fitz
Robert (ancestors of the Fitz Walters) and Rohais, married to Fulbert de
Dover, Lord of Chilhamn in Kent. Geoffrey, the heir ( of Richard de Lucy)
did NOT survive his father, and left an only son who died s.p.:
Herbert(Godfrey) the younger, also had no issue: and their sister Rohais
had livery of the whole barony, though Maude appears to have iherited
Angre and the Essex property".*
* Richard de Lucy, Lord of Gouviz and Baron of Cretot in Normandy,
mentioned in the MSS of the Cotton Libr. Tib. D II., mentioned among the
nobility of France.
The above "The Battle Abbey Roll with some Account of the Norman
Lineages" by the Duchess of Cleveland, printed by John Murray, Albemarle
Street, London 1889.
This is the only mention of children I find, so it is possible the
Geoffrey's son may have been inadvertantly counted?
Further:
He certainly had one brother namded Walter and possibly a 2nd brother
named Reginald de Lucy as he gave a moiety of the church at
Godstone,Surrey to the Abbey of Lenses, founded by Richard. Walter, The
other brother was the 5th Abbot of Battle, and according to the Abbey
Chronicle ruled energetically and wisely for 33 years, etc.
Mon. II 302-Mannings Surrey.
Reginald de Lucy the 3rd brother, acquired by marriage a very large
property in Cumberland. This was the Saxon barony of Coupland or Kopeland,
granted by Ranulph de Meschines to his younger brother William, Kopeland
became Ergemont in the new tongue. William married Cecilia de Roumeli,
heiress of Skipton-in-Craven and left an only child Aaliza or Alice who
bore her mothers name of Roumeli, and brought the united baronies to her
husband, William Fitz Duncan and grandson of Malcolm Canmore. The had one
surviving issue commonly called Boy of Egremont, too died and the great
inheritance fell to his three sisters. Cecily was married by HenryII to
William de Gros, Earl of Albemarle, Amabel became the wife of Reginald de
Lucy and Alice had two husbands, Gilbert Pipard and Robert Courtenay but
all her children died young and thus the whole of her share, comprising,
in addition to the honor of Cockermouth,Aspatric and the barony of
Allerdale, eventually came to the Lucy's. There is more on Reginalds line,
no male issue but two daughters who married two brothers, Lambert and Alan
de Multon, but their 1 son retained his mothers maiden name instead of
Multon. The other was summoned to parliment as Lord Lucy, 16 Ed. II. He
added to his estate by marrying his kinswoman Margaret de Multon, one of
the co-heirs of John de Multon.....
There is more but I was sondering abou Richard de Lucys alleged 3rd son,
still think it was probably Geoffreys, any data for it?
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: Philip De Gai:Robert of Glouc.-Possible

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 29 jul 2005 00:46:02

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:
Dear James ~

I believe that the mother of Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester, was a
member of the Bohun or Salisbury families of Wiltshire.

What is the basis for this belief?

taf

Leo van de Pas

Re: Time for a group hug

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 29 jul 2005 00:53:02

Dearest Douglas,

Do you think that _apology_ was appropriate or sufficient?

To have effective co-operation and an collegial atmosphere we should rush
with the knowledge we have from primary sources, it does not help to say
_look it up yourself, if I in Salt Lake City can find it so should you in
Australia_ Co-operation and respect is a two way street. I still see you
going into the opposite direction. Only one person can change that.

As always the BEST.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:40 AM
Subject: Time for a group hug


Dear Leo ~

If you're trying to goad me, Leo, it won't work. I apologized to you
last week and have no desire to start another argument with you. Let
us have peace on the newsgroup. It's time for a group hug, I think.

Now, where would you like to begin with your research on the Lucy and
Boulogne families?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
What is helpful for _all_ is to quote which Primary Source _you_
obviously
have seen and quote from it. This reeks too much of your other
statements in
the past _I know the answer but to get it you must buy my book_
Surely you
are not reverting to your old uncollegial self again?




D. Spencer Hines

Re: Time For A Group Hug

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 29 jul 2005 01:18:01

Time for a Group Hug, Leo.

D. Spencer Hines

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:00c201c593c6$fb3f1430$0300a8c0@Toshiba...

<snip>

Gjest

Re: Addition to DNB : Sir John Hunt of Lyndon, Rutland, late

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 jul 2005 01:50:03

The Dictionary of National Biography sub Hunt, John, Sir d 1615 does not
mention a wife (but who I now identify as Mary) but does confirm that this person
is the same as the son of

John Hunt of Lyndon [Hall], Co Rutland and his wife Amice "Amy" Cave dau of
Sir Thomas Cave of Stanford, Northamptonshire

And in addition I can find no mention anywhere of John Hunt's oldest heir
whom I now identify as Remegius (Remeige) Hunt who d 1618 and his wife was named
Elizabeth.

Further, this same John Hunt the elder had a daughter Margaret who, with her
husband Mr Raynes had at least five children, to wit: George, Nicholas,
Gabriel, Amice, and Elizabeth

In addition this same John Hunt the elder, had a sister Anne Hunt who married
a Mr Boothe.

As you can see from the Will and IPM, John Hunt appears to have been a rather
wealthy person.


CONANT MSS
Catalogue Ref. DG11
Creator(s): Conant family of Lyndon Hall, Rutland
Barker family of Lyndon Hall, Rutland

Wills and Administrations

FILE [no title] - ref. DG11/990 - date: 1605 March 19
[from Scope and Content] Certified copy of the will, dated 28th December 28
Elizabeth I, and probate granted 31st March 1586 by the Prerogative Court of
Canterbury, of John Hunte the elder, of Lindon, co. Rutland, esq.: wife, Amice,
to have all testator's lands in LINDON and HALLOUGHTON for life; Bowwood in
TICKENGCOTE to executors for payment of debts and legacies; to Remeige Hunt,
after deaths of testator and his wife, the manor of LINDON for life, then the
reversion of Bowwood and all other lands in LYNDON to Thomas Hunt, eldest son of
Remeige, and to eldest son of Thomas and heirs male, remainders to second to
7th sons of Thomas successively and their heirs male, in default to Fras., the
second son of Remige, to John, the third son of Remige, successively and their
sons and heirs male as before, remainders to testator's 2nd son John and
heirs male, and heirs male of testator; to son, Fras. Hunt, Swinnowe Hilles and
Goodmans Closes, in HALLOUGHTON, for ever, and after death of testator's wife,
all his lands in HALLOUGHTON for ever; also to Fras. all lands in BARROWE,
QUERNE and PRESTOLDE; to son Thomas Hunt the patronage of LINDON and TWIFORD and
lands in DEINE for life, then reversion of lands in DEINE to son Fras. and his
heirs for ever; to daughter Margaret Raynes lands in BARROWE, let to Bart.
Franck, for 40 years, and at her death residue of the term to her sons, George,
Nicholas and Gabriel, and to her daughters, Amice and Elizabeth; testator's
wife and executors to have £80 for private purposes testator has charged her to
perform, and wife Amice, to allow such tenants as be parcel of her jointure to
remain to pay yearly rents and carry out other duties which testator had in
his lifetime; "my Lord of Rutland" to have testator's land in WOLSTROPPE; lease
made to George Trigge and Fras. Hunt of Porthill, Coplowhill and Holgate for
30 years, to wife Amice, Kenelm Digbye, esq., and George Trigge, gent.; land in
ESONDYNE and CARLEBIE to be sold by executors and the proceeds, and the
profits of Bowwood, to be bestowed in alms where needed; sister Anne Boothe, to be
repaid 30 shillings out of her rent for 40 years; Robert Martin of Denie and
his wife to have the house and land in DEINE, in which they live, for 40 years;
- - - - Freeman, widow, to have the farm in which she dwells for 12 years;
testator's tenants in LINDON and elsewhere, after death of testator and his
wife, to have their farms for 4 years at the usual rents; directions concerning
lands in BARROWE, QUERNE and PRESTOLDE held in trust by Edward Digby, Anthony
Digby and Leonard Homan, who are to convey lands in WOLLSTROPPE to Lord Rutland,
and the lands in BARROWE, QUERNE and PRESTOLDE to testator's son, Fras.; sons
directed not to hinder Amice of any legacies or bequests, and to make further
legal assurance of all lands conveyed and bequesthed, on penalty of loss of
benefit from the will; any ambiguity in the will to be resolved by Kenelm
Digby, Edward Digby, Henry Harenden and George Trigge without law suit; if son
Remige should try to alter the will, executors to take advantage of his bonds,
(etc.) to recompence the injured parties; all lands, part of LINCOLN HOULD, to
executors for the term held and to pay the rent; Elizabeth, wife of son Remige,
to have freehold lands in LYNDON for life, after deaths of testator and his
wife: testator appoints wife Amice, Anthony Digby, Peter Roos and son Francis
Hunt, executors, George Trigge a coadjutor, and Kelnelm Digby and Henry Harenden
supervisors: administration granted to Amicie Hunt, Fras. Hunt, Anthony Digby
and Peter Roos.


CONANT MSS
Catalogue Ref. DG11
Creator(s): Conant family of Lyndon Hall, Rutland
Barker family of Lyndon Hall, Rutland

INQUISITIONS

FILE [no title] - ref. DG11/939 - date: 30 Elizabeth I, August 27
[from Scope and Content] Inquisition Post Mortem, taken at Uppingham before
Edward Digbie, esq., Fras. Morgan, esq., deputy feodary of co. Rutland, and the
eschaetor of the same county, on John Hunt, esq., deceased, by the oath of
Thomas Brudenell, Thomas Markeham, William Pecke, gents., Clem. Braittayne,
Robert Allen, John Pecke, Jas. Ridgley, Thomas Warde, Robert Warde, John
Ridlington, Richard Morris, Thomas Nebon, John Fawkener, Fras. Fowler, Thomas Sharpe,
William Allen, Andrew Rudkine and Thomas Sheild, yeomen: they say said John
Hunt at his death was seised in his demesne as of fee of the manor of LINDEN,
also 16 messuages, 1 mill, 600 acres of land, 300 acres of meadow, 500 acres of
pasture, 20 acres of wood, 200 acres of furze and heath and £10 of rent and
view of frankpledge in LINDEN and TYKINGCOTE and the advowson of the church of
LINDON; and of one acre of meadow in PILTON, and one croft 40 acres of land, 10
acres of meadow, 20 acres of pasture in ESSINDEN and KARLEBIE; and of 6
messuages, 7 cottages, 10 tofts, one dovecot, 12 gardens, 300 acres of land, 100
acres of meadow, 200 acres of pasture, 3 acres of wood, 120 acres of furze and
heath, and 20 pence of rent and common of pasture for 100 animals and 500 sheep
in BARROWS UPON SORE and QUARNE alias QUARNEDON; and of the manor of BARROWE,
called Roxtons Manor, and of 3 messuages, 8 cottages, 9 tofts, 9 gardens, 40
acres of land, 23 acres of meadow, 20 acres of pasture and 14 pence of rent in
BARROWE UPON SORE and QUERNE; and of certain lands in PRESTWOLD; and of 2
messuages, 3 tofts, 2 gardens, 1 water mill, 300 acres of land, 100 acres of
meadow, 200 acres of pasture and 12 shillings of rent in HALLOUGHTON, and of 5
messuages, 1 mill, 4 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 20 acres of pasture in
HALLOUGHTON; and of 1 cottage in HALLOUGHTON; and of 2 messuages, 3 cottages, 40
acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 40 acres of pasture in STOKEDALBENIE; and
of 3 messuages, 80 acres of land, 12 acres of meadow, 30 acres of pasture in
DEENE and BULLWICKE; and of the manor of WOLSTROPPE; and of 2 messuages, 100
acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 60 acres of pasture and annual rent of 2 hens
in WOLSTROPPE; and of an annual rent of 16 pence issuing from certain
tenements in NORMANTON: all which manors, messuages, lands, tenements and
hereditaments John Hunt willed and bequeathed in his will, as follows:- (See Muniments of
Title - Wills and Administrations, 19 March 1605): and they say further that
he was seised of the manor of NEWTON MARMION alias COLD NEWTON, and of 3
messuages, 3 cottages, 6 gardens, 6 tofts, 300 acres of land, 100 acres of meadow,
500 acres of pasture, 6 acres of wood, and 40 shillings rent in NEWTON BURDET
alias COLD NEWTON; and of a messuage, 30 acres of land, 11 acres of meadow, 40
acres of pasture, 3 acres of wood in the same; and of 2 cottages in the same;
and of the manor of SALT; and of 2 messuages, 150 acres of land, 40 acres of
meadow, 100 acres of pasture, 300 acres of furze and heath in SALT and ENSTON;
and of 2 messuages and 100 acres of land, 30 acres of meadow, 100 acres of
pasture and 12 acres of wood in WHETMORE and GEYTON; and of a messuage, 60 acres
of land, 20 acres of meadow, 40 acres of pasture in DOGLANE and FRODSWALL; and
of 2 messuages, 60 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 40 acres of pasture, 10
acres of wood in WHITMORE; and of a messuage, 30 acres of land, 10 acres of
meadow, 20 acres of pasture in MILWICKE; and of 3 cottages in STONE; and of a
cottage, 2 acres of land, 2 acres of pasture in NEWCASTELL UNDERLINE; and of 20
acres of pasture in COOTON: they say that said John Hunt died 17th March 28
Elizabeth I, and that Remige Hunt is the elder son and next heir and was aged
40 years at John's death: further they say that the manor of LINDON and other
premises in LINDON and TYKENCOTE are held of the Queen in chief by Knight's fee
and are valued annually at £19:10s:Od.; that the acre of meadow in PILTON are
held of William Lord Burleighe, High Treasurer of England, by suit of his
hundred court of WRANGDIKE, and is valued annually at 2 shillings; that the croft
and other premises in ESSENDEN and KARLEBIE are held of Lord Burleighe by
annual rent of 12 pence and valued annually at 26s:8d.; that the 6 messuages,
(etc.). in BARROWE UPON SORE and QUERNE are held of Henry, Earl of Huntington as
of his manor of BARROWE by annual rent of 12s:11½d. and valued annually at
£5:14s:5½d.; that the manor of BARROWE, called Roxton's, Manor, and other
premises in BARROWE UPON SORE and QUERNE are held of said Earl as of his manor of
BARROWE and by annual rent 13s:6 ½d. and of the Queen as of her manor of
BEWMANNOR by annual rent of 9 shillings and of Lord Barkley and annual rent of 12
pence, and valued annually at £5:14s:5½d; that the lands in PRESTWOLD are held of
Everard Digbie, esq., and Mary his wife and Henry Hall, esq., as of their
manor of PRESTWOLD and valued annually at 5 shillings; that the cottage in
HALLOUGHTON is held of the Queen as of her manor in HALLOUGHTON called Beaumonts by
annual rent of 6 pence, and of Richard Oliver, gent., as of his manor in
HALLOUGHTON by annual rent of 3 pence, and valued annually at 25 shillings; that the
2 messuages, (etc.) in HALLOUGHTON are held of the Queen as of her manor of
Beaumonts by annual rent of 9s:7 1/2d. and of Richard Oliver, gent., as of his
manor in HALLOUGHTON called Pauletts by annual rent of 8s:1d., and valued
annually at £12:15s:6d; that the 5 messuages, (etc.) in HALLOUGHTON are held of
Richard Oliver, gent., as of his manor called Pauletts, by annual rent of
6s:11d. and valued annually at £10:Os:2d.; that the 30 acres of pasture in
HALLOUGHTON are held of the Queen in chief by a 56th part of a knight's fee and valued
annually at 17s:6d.; that the 2 messuages, (etc.), IN STOKEDALBENIE are held
of Edward Gryffine, esq., as of his manor of STOKEDALBINIE by annual rent of
4s:4d., and valued annually at £3; that the 3 messuages, (etc.) in DEINE and
BULWICKE are held of John Brudenell, esq., as of his manor of DEINE by annual
rent of 10s:4d. and valued annually at 31s:8d.; that the manor of WOLSTROPPE,
(etc.) are held of Roger, Earl of Rutland of his Castle of BELVOIRE by annual
rent of 8d. and other unknown services, and valued annually at £3:9s:4d.; that
the manor of NEWTON MARMION and other premises in NEWTON BURDET are held of
Ambrose, Earl of Warwick as of his manor of KYBWORTHE by military service and
valued annually at £9:6s:8d.; that the messuage and other premises in NEWTON
BURDET are held of said Earl as of his manor of KYBWORTHE by military service and
valued annually annually at 13s:4d.; that the 2 cottages in NEWTON BURDET are
held of said Earl in like manner and valued annually at 23s:4d.; that the manor
of SALT and other premises in SALT and ENSTON are held of the Baron of
Stafford as of his barony of STAFFORD by military service, and valued annually at
57s:10d.; that the 2 messuages and other premises in WHETMORE and GAYTON are
held of the Queen as of her hundred of PIRIHILL and valued annually at 40s; that
the messuage and other premises in DOGLANE and FRODSWALL are held of Edward
Devereux, esq., as of his manor of FRODSWALL by annual rent of 1 pound of pepper
and 3 shillings and valued annually at 33s:5d.; that the 2 messuages and
other premises in WHITMORE are held of ---- Mannering, son of Edward Mannering,
deceased, as of his manor of WHITMORE by annual rent of 2s:1d. and valued
annually at 29s:4d.; that the messuage and other premises in MILWICKE are held of
William Maxefeild, esq., as of his manor of GARISHALL by annual rent of 2
shillings and valued annually at 6s:5d.; that the 3 cottages in STONE are held of
the Queen of her hundred of PIRIHILL and valued annually at 11 shillings; that
the cottage and other premises in NEWCASTELL UNDERLINE are held of the mayor
and burgesses of NEWCASTELL in burgage-tenure and by annual rent of 6d. and
valued annually at 2s:10d.; and that the 20 acres of pasture in COOTON are held of
said Edward Devereux as of his manor of FRODSWALL, and valued annually at 20
pence.

Gjest

Re: Addition to genealogics: Another daughter for Roger Cave

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 jul 2005 02:22:02

Monson
Catalogue Ref. MON
Creator(s): Monson family of South Carlton, Lincolnshire
Newton family of Lincolnshire
Archer family of Lincolnshire
Thistlewood family of Lincolnshire and Jamaica

Monson small deed boxes. 1 - 38.

FILE - Title deeds etc., Lincolnshire. - ref. MON 3/29 - date: 1506-1657
item: Indenture of grant to create a further trust. - ref. MON 3/29/43 -
date: 12 September 1588
[from Scope and Content] John Bussy to Francis Molyneux, Henry Poole, Thomas
Horseman, and Thomas Molyneux in trust for the grantor and his wife, Elizabeth
their son Edmund and his future wife Frances Cave, daughter of Roger Cave,
late of Stamford.

Gjest

Re: Addition to genealogics: New daughter for Walter Bagot o

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 jul 2005 02:36:02

Okeover family of Okeover
Catalogue Ref. GB 0026 D231
Creator(s): Okeover family of Okeover, Derbyshire

Family - ref. D231M/F
Okeover family
Family Settlements

FILE [no title] - ref. D231M/F19 - date: 1609/1610
[from Scope and Content] Articles of agreement between Rowland Okeover of
Okeover, Staffs, esq., Anne his wife, and Walter Bagot of Bliffield [Blithfield],
Staffs, by which Humfrey his sone and heir apparent shall within one year of
this agreement marry Lettyce Bagot, one of Walter's daughters

Peter Stewart

Re: Philip De Gai:Robert of Glouc.-Possible

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 29 jul 2005 06:35:23

Todd Farmerie wrote:

Douglas Richardson royalances...@msn.com wrote:
Dear James ~

I believe that the mother of Robert Fitz Roy, Earl of Gloucester, was a
member of the Bohun or Salisbury families of Wiltshire.

What is the basis for this belief?

It seems to be taking a while to answer this question, so maybe it
could be broken down into several that can be addressed one at a time
if necesary:

1. Is this belief held after or in the absence of reading the paper by
David Crouch cited earlier by Chris?

2. If after, what evidence is believed to outweigh the proposal he
made?

3. If not, what rationale in favour of another family is so strong that
Crouch's views don't even need to be considered?

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Time for a group hug

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 29 jul 2005 07:02:49

My comment is interspersed below.

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dearest Douglas,

To have effective co-operation and an collegial atmosphere we should rush
with the knowledge we have from primary sources, it does not help to say
_look it up yourself, if I in Salt Lake City can find it so should you in
Australia_ Co-operation and respect is a two way street.

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

So why aren't you posting any primary records on Sir Richard de Lucy
and his wife, Rohese of Boulogne? If this is a two way street, you
should be posting your share, too. That's only fair, Leo.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Tony Ingham

Re: For D C Richardson

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 29 jul 2005 07:27:01

Douglas,

As you obviously did not receive my previous mailing or have overlooked
a reply I'll try again.

This time in two parts. Part 1 follows:

In reply to your posting you might be interested in the following which
indicates that the on line info contains more than a glimmer of truth.
[The E.R.O. index is riddled with typographical errors which probably
explains the name Glynis]

1530 Essex Record Office D/DCe/Z12
Draft (?of Agreement) betw (i) John HAMPDEN, esq., son and h. of John
HAMPDEN; (ii) Edm., Katryn and Margery HAMPDEN, exors. of will of Thomas
HAMPDEN; (iii) Edw., Francis and Alexander HAMPDEN, sons of Thomas and
Margery HAMPDEN; (iv) (blank) Scotte, gent.and w. Joan, and Humph. Cotes
and w. Glynis, daughter of Thomas and Margery HAMPDEN.
Recites will of Thomas HAMPDEN, incl. disposal of manors of
"Baledlowe, Chilton and Esynton (co. Bucks) and of other lands in "Buk
and Oxerford" (damaged) 15 May 22 Henry (viii, 1530)

Part 2, dealing with individuals in a previous thread on the Hampden
family will follow shortly.

Tony Ingham
AUSTRALIA

Dear Newsgroup ~

As a followup to my earlier post today on the Hampden family, I should
mention that there is information online in Ancestry World Tree Project
which gives the following marriages for Thomas Hampden's known four
daughters:

1. Alice, married Robert Whitney.

2. Katherine, married _____ Goldington.

3. Jane, married John Scott.

4. Eleanor, married Humphrey Cotes.

The sources for these marriages are supposed to be:

Putman Family by Even Putman; Hist and Antuquities of the County of
Buckingham; Victoria History of the Counties of England; Visitation of
the County of Buckingham.

Can anyone confirm any of the above four marriages? Is Robert Whitney
above by any chance connected to the immigrant, John Whitney, of
Watertown, Massachusetts.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Peter Stewart

Re: Time for a group hug

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 29 jul 2005 07:27:40

Douglas Richardson wrote:

So why aren't you posting any primary records on Sir Richard de
Lucy and his wife, Rohese of Boulogne? If this is a two way street,
you should be posting your share, too. That's only fair, Leo.

Um, Leo is questioning whether Rohese WAS "of Boulogne", so why would
he at the same time have evidence to post in favour of this?

He has also frequently explained that he sees himself as a "gatherer"
of genealogical data found by others, not a "hunter" of primary
records. Leo never misrepresents himself to the newsgroup.

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Time for a group hug

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 29 jul 2005 07:33:54

Dear Peter ~

Please call me Douglas. Thank you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

bonnie

Re: daughter[s?] of Richard de Lucy

Legg inn av bonnie » 29 jul 2005 07:44:01

Dear Ginny and Doug -

Thank you for your helpful responses.

Bonnie

Peter Stewart

Re: Time for a group hug

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 29 jul 2005 08:41:50

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1122618834.608807.16190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dear Peter ~

Please call me Douglas. Thank you.

No thank you.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Time For A Group Hug

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 29 jul 2005 08:52:02

Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!

<Groak!>

DSH

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1122618834.608807.16190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

| Dear Peter ~
|
| Please call me Douglas. Thank you.
|
| Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
|
| Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Leo van de Pas

Re: Time for a group hug

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 29 jul 2005 09:11:02

You are the one proclaiming to have it.

We are back where we all were hoping not to return to.

You're so called reasonable approach lacks reason.


----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: Time for a group hug


My comment is interspersed below.

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dearest Douglas,

To have effective co-operation and an collegial atmosphere we should rush
with the knowledge we have from primary sources, it does not help to say
_look it up yourself, if I in Salt Lake City can find it so should you in
Australia_ Co-operation and respect is a two way street.

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

So why aren't you posting any primary records on Sir Richard de Lucy
and his wife, Rohese of Boulogne? If this is a two way street, you
should be posting your share, too. That's only fair, Leo.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


Peter Marrow

Insults

Legg inn av Peter Marrow » 29 jul 2005 12:17:01

Check out the automated Shakespearean insult generator:

http://www.sunbelt-software.com/stu/insult.htm

best regards
Pete

The Ikon That Can Still G

(RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av The Ikon That Can Still G » 29 jul 2005 19:34:35

David E. Powell wrote:
Has anyone else seen this guy's posts on USENET? I wonder if he is a
wrestling fan. Imagine him on RSPW....

CliffMacGillivray

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av CliffMacGillivray » 29 jul 2005 19:38:08

The Ikon That Can Still Go wrote:
David E. Powell wrote:

Has anyone else seen this guy's posts on USENET? I wonder if he is a
wrestling fan. Imagine him on RSPW....

My understanding is that there is a very real tragic stpry behind D.
Spencer Hines. Apparently with his father's influence he was able to
rise to a promising billet in the Naval Intelligence community but after
his dad retired he couldn't stand on his own two feet and retired in
obscurity as some anonymous desk jockey oversseing military housing
somewhere or something.

CED

Re: Real Names & Pseudonyms

Legg inn av CED » 29 jul 2005 20:11:03

Brandon:

Yes, when I stop to think about it. My form of dyslexia forces me to
spell by rules I learned when I was young. Putting an 'e' at the end
of the word which sounds like hypocrit changes its sound, by
lengthening the 'i'; so that it would sound like 'hypoceyet.' So if I
type without thinking, I change the spelling of certain words. Sorry
about that.

CED

John Brandon

Re: Real Names & Pseudonyms

Legg inn av John Brandon » 29 jul 2005 20:19:16

Yep, I was thinking there was a slightly foreign aspect to his/her
writing.

John Brandon

Re: Real Names & Pseudonyms

Legg inn av John Brandon » 29 jul 2005 20:20:37

Well, at least you admitted you were "typing without thinking" ....

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Real Names & Pseudonyms

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 29 jul 2005 20:56:02

Perhaps "he" is French or Belgian.

DSH

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122662526.402792.224070@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

| "Ceddie" is quite cute, I think. Cedric the Entertainer goes by that
| name sometimes.
|
| Are you aware that 'hypocrit' is usually spelled with an -e?

Gjest

Re: Just and unjust insults

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 jul 2005 20:58:02

In a message dated 7/29/05 10:41:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
geb@gordonbanks.com writes:

<< I'm not sure the Abolitionists' insults were what effected that change.
It took a bloody war. >>

The war was fought over states rights vs federal rights, not over the issue
of slavery.

The freeing of the slaves, made part-way into it, was an attempt by Lincoln
to cripple the South so the North could free.

Will Johnson

The Ikon That Can Still G

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av The Ikon That Can Still G » 29 jul 2005 20:58:43

Cut and Paste from Usenet:


Commander David Spencer Hines, US Navy Retired.


He currently lives in Hawaii with his Japanese wife.
They have two children of either sex.


Hines is believed to have been unemployed for at least the last seven
years
after failed business adventures he started with money from his
father's
will.


The son of Admiral Wellington T Hines (war hero and pioneer of carrier
based
operations in the US Navy) Baby David's career was all mapped out for
him:
Yale, Officer Training - he was being groomed for a top slot at the
Pentagon.


But as with many great men, the son rarely lives up to expectations.


He was relieved for 'cause' on two separate occasions while serving in
the
United States Navy, the first being while assigned to Naval Security
Group
Activity Misawa, Japan, the second while assigned to CINCPAC's Intel
Division on Oahu.


The latter incident got him reassigned to Pearl Harbor here he assumed
the duties as housing officer, quite a demotion for one whose career
had such glowing promise as a junior officer.


Never endearing, and forever the outcast, this "pompous nautical ass"
laboured hard and doggedly for his promotions up to the rank of
Commander, but he ran into the 'eye of the storm' when he tried to
pull one tantrum after another in disagreement with a very sage
Captain who would go on to become Commander, U.S.Naval Security Group
Command!


He was yanked from his operational duties on the first occasion, and
appointed XO simply for the convenience of being under close scrutiny
by the C.O, and in a position less harassing to the other 700+ members
of the command.


This was NOT a promotion.


He served only as XO while the paperwork for his transfer made it
through
the bureaucratic chain back in Washington. That didn't take all that
long,
and before anyone knew it, D. Spencer Hines and his marvellous wife
(how
she's put up with him for all these years must remain one of the
world's
greatest mysteries), had departed Northern Honshu for the Hawaiian
Islands.


It's one thing to butt heads with a Captain, but when told to cool
your jets by a four-star and you still stand your ground, most wise
men
know that their careers will, at that very moment, gain great
momentum and a natural phenomenon of tailspins that have continued to
this
day!


In summary, in the words of a fellow officer who served with him:


" D Spencer Hines is one of the most arrogant jackasses to ever breath
and
walk upon the face of earth. He hadn't a clue what leadership was all
about,
and in the face of intelligence evaluation, he would always ask for a
point
paper when one's analysis varied from his - and that was often the
case.


"A towering man, of bulk and arrogance, this red headed barbarian is
not worth the grey hairs many of your constituents seem to be letting
themselves in for.


"He is his father's son, but nothing like his father, but rather, more
a quasi-nautical south seas jester at this stage in life whose open
sores apparently continue to ooze and your group are the swabs being
used to absorb all that ails this sick man during his transition to
senior citizenship!"

Gordon Banks

Re: Just and unjust insults

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 29 jul 2005 21:06:01

So what "right" was it that the states that seceded were so worried
about losing?

On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 14:56 -0400, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 7/29/05 10:41:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
geb@gordonbanks.com writes:

I'm not sure the Abolitionists' insults were what effected that change.
It took a bloody war.

The war was fought over states rights vs federal rights, not over the issue
of slavery.

The freeing of the slaves, made part-way into it, was an attempt by Lincoln
to cripple the South so the North could free.

Will Johnson
--

Gordon Banks <geb@gordonbanks.com>

Gjest

Re: Guillem de Gellone - disregard last post!

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 jul 2005 21:15:02

Disregard last post!! Try this one. did i get it right this time?

"Baldwin was the son of Hugh, count of Rethel, and his wife Melisende of
Monthlery; Hugh, son of Manasses of Rethel and Jutta (Judith). Baldwin of Bourcq
was a cousin of the brothers Eustace III, Godfrey, and Baldwin, whom he
followed on the First Crusade in 1096. Although Baldwin II is called a "cousin" of
Baldwin I, the exact manner in which they are related has never been discovered.
Some disreputable books have claimed a fictitious Ida of Boulogne as mother
to Baldwin II in order to force the relationship, but this person never
existed."

Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Real Names & Pseudonyms

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 29 jul 2005 21:40:01

Indeed.

Actual -- or Calculated -- as a Ruse.

DSH

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122664756.820212.62960@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

| Yep, I was thinking there was a slightly foreign aspect to his/her
| writing.

Gjest

Re: Wikipedia.com

Legg inn av Gjest » 29 jul 2005 22:34:01

In a message dated 7/29/05 1:16:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< To a degree that is exactly it, although it is indicated that those
contributing should take compromise positions and recognize legitimate
alternative opinion rather than having a continuous tennis match between
extremes. I don't think, though, there is any way to stop someone from
posting an extreme position in place of a moderate one. (I was working
up material on early Navarre, and someone posted a whole lot of stuff
that is either based research too cutting edge for me to be aware of it,
or so old it has long been dismissed without coming to my notice. I am
at a loss what to do now.)

Just a friendly suggestion - perhaps it would be a good idea for anyone
planning to update/correct wiki to post here and leave a little time for
comment before uploading the change. At least then a reasonable
compromise can be hammered out here rather than through warring wiki
submissions. >>

I can answer that. There are such fights that go on from time to time,
usually on the really contentious pages like the one for Baha U'llah.

What happens is a Talk page is started. One of the tabs at the top of each
page says "Talk" or "Discuss" something like that. If you click that, you can
sometimes see long discussions on this or that point in the article. Usually
(99% of the time), people come to an agreement, or one side just gives up and
goes away.

I would suggest just reposting back your data, and adding a Talk-point on why
you think its' this or that way and cite sources. Most of the time, if you
cite sources in Talk, people will check them out and agree or tell you why they
still think it's wrong. Similar to here, only a little easier to click
around in the discussions.

Will Johnson

James Toupin

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av James Toupin » 29 jul 2005 23:49:54

Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

James


"The Ikon That Can Still Go" <CrayzeeGuy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122667123.565250.111720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Cut and Paste from Usenet:


Commander David Spencer Hines, US Navy Retired.


He currently lives in Hawaii with his Japanese wife.
They have two children of either sex.


Hines is believed to have been unemployed for at least the last seven
years
after failed business adventures he started with money from his
father's
will.


The son of Admiral Wellington T Hines (war hero and pioneer of carrier
based
operations in the US Navy) Baby David's career was all mapped out for
him:
Yale, Officer Training - he was being groomed for a top slot at the
Pentagon.


But as with many great men, the son rarely lives up to expectations.


He was relieved for 'cause' on two separate occasions while serving in
the
United States Navy, the first being while assigned to Naval Security
Group
Activity Misawa, Japan, the second while assigned to CINCPAC's Intel
Division on Oahu.


The latter incident got him reassigned to Pearl Harbor here he assumed
the duties as housing officer, quite a demotion for one whose career
had such glowing promise as a junior officer.


Never endearing, and forever the outcast, this "pompous nautical ass"
laboured hard and doggedly for his promotions up to the rank of
Commander, but he ran into the 'eye of the storm' when he tried to
pull one tantrum after another in disagreement with a very sage
Captain who would go on to become Commander, U.S.Naval Security Group
Command!


He was yanked from his operational duties on the first occasion, and
appointed XO simply for the convenience of being under close scrutiny
by the C.O, and in a position less harassing to the other 700+ members
of the command.


This was NOT a promotion.


He served only as XO while the paperwork for his transfer made it
through
the bureaucratic chain back in Washington. That didn't take all that
long,
and before anyone knew it, D. Spencer Hines and his marvellous wife
(how
she's put up with him for all these years must remain one of the
world's
greatest mysteries), had departed Northern Honshu for the Hawaiian
Islands.


It's one thing to butt heads with a Captain, but when told to cool
your jets by a four-star and you still stand your ground, most wise
men
know that their careers will, at that very moment, gain great
momentum and a natural phenomenon of tailspins that have continued to
this
day!


In summary, in the words of a fellow officer who served with him:


" D Spencer Hines is one of the most arrogant jackasses to ever breath
and
walk upon the face of earth. He hadn't a clue what leadership was all
about,
and in the face of intelligence evaluation, he would always ask for a
point
paper when one's analysis varied from his - and that was often the
case.


"A towering man, of bulk and arrogance, this red headed barbarian is
not worth the grey hairs many of your constituents seem to be letting
themselves in for.


"He is his father's son, but nothing like his father, but rather, more
a quasi-nautical south seas jester at this stage in life whose open
sores apparently continue to ooze and your group are the swabs being
used to absorb all that ails this sick man during his transition to
senior citizenship!"

Vince Brannigan

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Vince Brannigan » 30 jul 2005 00:33:24

James Toupin wrote:
Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

James


perfectly happy to do so as I always have.

of course he is the kingpin of personal abuse

but I can live with it

Vince

hippo

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av hippo » 30 jul 2005 01:16:51

"James Toupin" wrote in message

Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that
we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any
newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

Good for you. Even if it was possible to verify any of this, which there
isn't, there is nothing to be gained by lowering the level of discourse to
the level of the (small 't') troll groups. -the Troll

Ernst Hoffmann

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Ernst Hoffmann » 30 jul 2005 02:41:02

Motion carried!

Ernst
Am 29.07.2005 um 22:49 schrieb James Toupin:


Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives
that we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with
him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express
your own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any
newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

James



Ref. snipped for good reasons.

Bernard Schulmann

Baltic Sea region

Legg inn av Bernard Schulmann » 30 jul 2005 02:50:02

Hello all, been a bit since I dropped a note in here - funny how some
things do not change.......

I am curious, who here has interest in genealogy of people from places
around the Baltic Sea? This is the area that interests me the most and
I would love to see who has also being doing research in that area.

Bernard

ray o'hara

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av ray o'hara » 30 jul 2005 03:47:10

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dcel7e$26$12@reader2.panix.com...
In alt.history.british James Toupin <jtoupin@telus.net> wrote:
Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that
we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your
own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any
newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

Actually no. I'm the Gans he keeps talking about. Am I in
a debate with him? Do I have discourse with him? Does he
insult me? Does he make personal attacks on me?

Can we have some fairness here?

---- Paul J. Gans

i'm sure many here think pogue is a common first name.

Paul J Gans

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 30 jul 2005 04:30:22

In alt.history.british James Toupin <jtoupin@telus.net> wrote:
Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

Actually no. I'm the Gans he keeps talking about. Am I in
a debate with him? Do I have discourse with him? Does he
insult me? Does he make personal attacks on me?

Can we have some fairness here?

---- Paul J. Gans

CJ Adams

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av CJ Adams » 30 jul 2005 05:02:03

James Toupin wrote:
Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

James


This writer has made a good and decent point. This isn't the first time

I've seen this putative biography and I wish it would be the last. I
generally don't agree with him either and his plethora of Latin tags is
inelegant in the extreme. Nevertheless, he doesn't deserve this
e-assassination. Disagreement yes; long knives, no.

Cheers
CJ Adams
Arte et Marte

Gjest

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 jul 2005 05:14:37

Please if you must attack. Take it to your private emails we are trying
to have a civilized newsgroup. You don't like Spencer or anyone else
here this isn't the forum to do it in. Please take it to
http://www.whocares.org

Gjest

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 jul 2005 05:14:39

Please if you must attack. Take it to your private emails we are trying
to have a civilized newsgroup. You don't like Spencer or anyone else
here this isn't the forum to do it in. Please take it to
http://www.whocares.org

Gjest

Re: A better date for the death of Edward Boughton - 1548

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 jul 2005 07:11:11

Edward Boughton of Brownsover, Dunchurch, Long Lawford and Little Lawford
was married to Elizabeth Willington, dau of William Willington of
Barcheston.

Until today I had only vague dates for Edward. However now we have a few
more exact specifications.
1) In his will dated 18 Apr 1547, Edward calls Elizabeth "My wife of 18
years" thus putting their marriage at 1528/9
2) The date of a will is only a vague idea of when a person died (AFT 18 Apr
1547) and in-fact Elizabeth's own father did not die until quite a long while
after he made his will. However, today I have found the wardship of Edward's
son William grated to Elizabeth's father William. The date of this grant is
18 Feb 1548 and states that Edward is deceased.
3) This son William Boughton is said to have married Jane Coningsby of
Hampton Court and their child, Edward Boughton, was born in 1572

Below I present the documents from the A2A Site
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Document 1
This one proves the name of his wife, and name of his father-in-law, and year
of their marriage.

Ward-Boughton-Leigh of Brownsover
Catalogue Ref. CR162
Creator(s): Ward family of Brownsover, Warwickshire
Boughton family of Brownsover, Warwickshire
Leigh family of Brownsover, Warwickshire

Ward-Boughton-Leigh of Brownsover
Family Settlements
Boughton family

FILE - Last will of Edward Boughton, he leaves the lands in Brownsover, which
he lately purchased, to Elizabeth his wife, for 18 years, to the 'fynding' of
his son Richard, and his daughter, Agnes, who is to receive £120 on her 19th
birthday, and the rest of the profits of the said land are to go to Richard.
And of the lands which Dame Elizabeth Barrington holds for her lifetime: 2
parts of them after her death are to go to Richard until William is 21. His wife
Elizabeth, William Willington his father-in-law, Reynold Dugby and Thomas Cave
are his executors. - ref. CR162/470 - date: 18th Apr. 1547
----------------------------------------------------
Document 2
This one shows that Edward has now died, and that

Ward-Boughton-Leigh of Brownsover
Manorial Documents
Boughton family
Warwickshire
FILE - Grant by Letters Patent to William Wyllington esq., of
certain annual rents in the manor of Brownsover with its appurtenances in
Dunchurch, Long Lawford and Little Lawford, which were held by Edward Boughton
(deceased) in knight's fee of the Crown; also the wardship and marriage of William
Boughton, during the latter's minority. - ref. CR162/3 - date: 18th Feb. 1548

Will Johnson

John Cartmell

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av John Cartmell » 30 jul 2005 08:12:58

In article <CYCGe.6322$d02.937924@news20.bellglobal.com>, CJ Adams
<bluebell@start.ca> wrote:
Nevertheless, he doesn't deserve this e-assassination.

Yes he does.
By all means object to it being done by public though - in both directions.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 http://www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

Gjest

Re: William Boughton, created Baronet in 1641

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 jul 2005 08:46:17

For some reason I assumed that this person would be in DNB but I can't find
him under Boughton anyway.

However using A2A I've determined that his parents were Edward Boughton b
1572 d aft 1609 and Elizabeth Catesby b bef 1590

Edward and Elizabeth were married bef 28 Oct 1593 on which date they appear
as "Edward and Elizabeth his wife"

Elizabeth is dau of Edward Catesby of Bromham, Warwickshire
Edward Boughton is son of William Boughton and Jane Coningsby (she of
Hampton Court)

Edward Boughton and Elizabeth Catesby had three children:
1) Katherine married William Combe
2) William married Abigail Baker
3) Thomas married Judith Baker, sister to Abigail.

I've traced this Boughton line back about another 7 generations using the A2A
collection.

What's odd to me is that WorldConnect when I say "Edward Boughton, wife
Catesby" has nothing ... at all ...

So what? Am I in virgin territory here? I just find it odd since William was
a Baronet and all :) I would have thought there'd be lots of stuff out there
on him.

Will Johnson

Robert O'Connor

Re: A better date for the death of Edward Boughton - 1548

Legg inn av Robert O'Connor » 30 jul 2005 10:18:17

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:145.4a4a05f6.301c57d6@aol.com...
Edward Boughton of Brownsover, Dunchurch, Long Lawford and Little Lawford
was married to Elizabeth Willington, dau of William Willington of
Barcheston.

Dear will


As you appear from the above to be interested in the Broughton ancestry you
may also be interested in the Willingtons and their ancestral connections??

From Phillimore's 'Some Account of the Family of Middlemore' (a copy of
which I am fortunate enough to possess, the Middlemores forming part of my
own ancestry), p 35 the following details on William Willington may be
gleaned:

William Willington, Esq., of Barcheston, Co. Warw. M 1 st Anne (Died before
8 Nov. 1545), d. of Richard Middlemore, Esq., of Edgbaston, Co. Warw. & his
wife Margery, d. of Sir Thomas Throckmorton, Kt., of Coughton, Co. Warw. M
2nd 1545 his sister-in-law Anne, widow of Thomas Middlemore, Esq., of
Edgbaston, & d. of Richard Littleton, Esq., of Pillaton, Co. Staffs. Died
1555.

Elizabeth Willington, wife of Edward Broughton, was the daughter of William
Willington and his first wife Anne Middlemore.

I don't have any further information on William Willington as he does not
fall within my direct ancestry, but Anne Middlemore's male line ancestry is
thus (beginning with her earliest known male ancestor):

JOHN de MIDDLEMORE (2), of Studley & Solihull, Co Staffs., England., He was
named in the Subsidy Roll for Studley & Sollihull, 1327. Mentioned in
various legal transactions, 1332 to 1343. He was lawyer for Ralph de Perham
in relation to lands in Longdon, 1332. He was directed to arrest & lodge
certain criminals in Worcester Gaol, 1333. Appointed a Commissioner in an
inquest relating to the lands of the Abbot of Bordesley, 1336. M Lettice
(She granted to her son, John, premises in Solihull & Tanworth, 1343). Died
c. 1340. He had issue:
/
HENRY MIDDLEMORE (2), of Mapleborough, Studley., He was recorded as living
in 1335 & as lawyer for Thomas de Beauchamp in 1365. He was a defendant in
a plea of assize, 1368. He had issue:
/
THOMAS MIDDLEMORE (2), of Edgbaston, Co. Warw., M Isabel (She M 2nd Richard
Clodeshale, of Saltley, whose will was Proved at P.C.C., August 1428. She
died c. 1423), d. & heir of Richard de Edgbaston, Esq., of Edgbaston, Co.
Warw. (See EDGBASTON). Citizen of London. He took possession of Edgbaston
in right of his wife. He was mentioned in an inquisition held as to the
founding of the Guild of the Holy Cross in Birmingham, 1392. An inquisition
as to his estate was taken at Birmingham, which showed that he was seised of
the manor of Edgbaston and lands in Studley, 10 March 1396. He, his wife, &
son John, were defendants in a suit by Thomas Porter, of Edgbaston, 1400.
He had licence to found a chantry in Studley Church, called Middlemore's
chapel, 1405. Died c. 1410. He had issue:
/
JOHN MIDDLEMORE (2), of Edgbaston, Co. Warw., M Agnes Waldive (She M 2nd
William Lucy). He was listed as one of the persons required to take the
oath not to maintain peace breakers, 1 May 1434. Died 1446. Bur. in
Edgbaston Church. He had issue:
/
RICHARD MIDDLEMORE, of Edgbaston, Co. Warw., Born before 1446. On his
father's death in 1446 he was a minor, & consequently was made a ward of Sir
William Birmingham, Kt., of Birmingham, Warw. He was one of the jurors at
the I.P.M. of Sir William Birmingham, Kt., 1478. In 1483 he witnessed a
grant of the manor of Arley made by Sir William Littleton, Kt., of Frankley,
Co. Worc. In 1490 he was a party with his nephew, John, to a final concord
relating to lands in King's Norton. He built the north arcade to St.
Bartholomew's Church, Edgbaston, 1500. M c. 1470 Margery (Born c. 1450.
Named as executrix of her husband's will, 28 Nov. 1502. Will dated 14 Aug.
1530. Died 1530. Will Proved at P.C.C., 6 Feb. 1530/1), d. of Sir Thomas
Throckmorton, Kt., of Coughton, Co. Worc. & his wife Margaret, d. of Sir
Robert Olney, Kt. (See THROCKMORTON). Will dated 28 Nov. 1502 - described
in his will as "Lord of Edgbaston". Died 16 Feb. 1502/3. Will Proved at
P.C.C., 14 March 1502/3. I.P.M., 1503. He had issue:
/
ANNE MIDDLEMORE, M William Willington above.

If any of this should be relevant to your interest I can happily let you
have my full Middlemore file detailing the Middlemore family in its many
lines. The Trockmorton connection is also easily traced and I can provide
details of that family should you so require.

Best wishes
Robert O'Connor

Graeme Wall

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Graeme Wall » 30 jul 2005 11:19:07

In message <p-KdnU32Adayd3ffRVn-2w@comcast.com>
"ray o'hara" <roh@comcast.net> wrote:

[snip]
i'm sure many here think pogue is a common first name.



Never had understood his obsession with Irish folk-rock music.

--
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>

Grey Satterfield

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 30 jul 2005 12:54:59

On 7/29/05 5:49 PM, in article moyGe.171428$tt5.77829@edtnps90, "James
Toupin" <jtoupin@telus.net> wrote:

Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

I agree. It's possible to go too far, even on Usenet, and this is one of
those times.

[Original scurrilous post about the Corpulent Commander snipped.]

Grey Satterfield

Grey Satterfield

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Grey Satterfield » 30 jul 2005 12:57:28

On 7/29/05 11:14 PM, in article
1122696877.844631.31560@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "mwelch8442@yahoo.com"
<mwelch8442@yahoo.com> wrote:

Please if you must attack. Take it to your private emails we are trying
to have a civilized newsgroup. You don't like Spencer or anyone else
here this isn't the forum to do it in. Please take it to
http://www.whocares.org

Usenet, "civilized"? Ha!

Grey Satterfield

Jack Linthicum

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 30 jul 2005 13:35:43

ray o'hara wrote:
"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dcel7e$26$12@reader2.panix.com...
In alt.history.british James Toupin <jtoupin@telus.net> wrote:
Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that
we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your
own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any
newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

Actually no. I'm the Gans he keeps talking about. Am I in
a debate with him? Do I have discourse with him? Does he
insult me? Does he make personal attacks on me?

Can we have some fairness here?

---- Paul J. Gans

i'm sure many here think pogue is a common first name.

Not christian but sur, David Pogue is the consumer electronics writer
for the New York Times.

But:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pogue
1. pogue
Derogatory phrase used by front-line infantry units to describe
rear-support or staff units.
Screw those leg-ass pogues!
Source: Hu$tla' $teve, Aug 26, 2003

2. pogue
Derogatory military slang used by front line troops to describe staff
and other rear echelon or support units/troops
Buggerd pogue and his chief of staff. No I aint seen then out here
busting there arse.
Source: Finn, Apr 14, 2005

3. Pogue
Derogatory term for the Irish. Possibly from Irish Gaelic "pogue mo
thoin", meaning "kiss my arse". Could also refer to the Irish rock
group The Pogues.
Go back to Ireland you fucking Pogue.
Source: Stormin, Sep 29, 2004


Basically a twofer, but Hines was staff, rear echelon or support so it
must be the Irish thing.

Fred J. McCall

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Fred J. McCall » 30 jul 2005 15:41:34

Grey Satterfield <grey.satterfield@oscn.net> wrote in
news:BF10D4C3.1A268%grey.satterfield@oscn.net:

I agree. It's possible to go too far, even on Usenet, and this is
one of those times.

[Original scurrilous post about the Corpulent Commander snipped.]

Given his comments to Sheila, it would seem that Commander Hiney
recognizes no such limitation. Therefore, I'm not so sure one should
be recognized when it comes to him....

--
This space for let.

James Toupin

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av James Toupin » 30 jul 2005 18:19:35

I don't defend Hine's actions against you, however I am fairly new to the
news group and this was the first post that I had seen with such a thorough
and brutal evisceration of someone on a personal level. I realise that it is
not always easy to ignore attacks or insults that may be hurled at you, but
stooping to the level of the one who you feel has abused you certainly will
not do anything for you or help you to argue your points to the newsgroup at
large. My suggestion is to take the high road and argue your points in a
firm, logical, and rational manor within the newsgroup. If the debate turns
into a personal attack against you, then you always have the option of
conducting that personal argument on a personal level through E-mail with
your attacker. Although even then you lower yourself to his level.

Maybe being new to the newsgroup, and newsgroups as a whole, I am naive and
expect too much from the medium. I would hope, however that these forums
could be a place where points can be raised, countered, and debated in a
vigorous yet civil manor.

With hope and naivety;
James


"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dcel7e$26$12@reader2.panix.com...
In alt.history.british James Toupin <jtoupin@telus.net> wrote:
Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that
we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any
newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

Actually no. I'm the Gans he keeps talking about. Am I in
a debate with him? Do I have discourse with him? Does he
insult me? Does he make personal attacks on me?

Can we have some fairness here?

---- Paul J. Gans

James Toupin

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av James Toupin » 30 jul 2005 18:24:00

"Fred J. McCall" <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96A34E41E5BCfmccallearthlinknet@207.217.125.201...
Grey Satterfield <grey.satterfield@oscn.net> wrote in
news:BF10D4C3.1A268%grey.satterfield@oscn.net:

I agree. It's possible to go too far, even on Usenet, and this is
one of those times.

[Original scurrilous post about the Corpulent Commander snipped.]

Given his comments to Sheila, it would seem that Commander Hiney
recognizes no such limitation. Therefore, I'm not so sure one should
be recognized when it comes to him....


I believe that the limitations should be recognized and adheared to by all.

Hopefully;
James
--
This space for let.

Bernard Schulmann

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Bernard Schulmann » 30 jul 2005 20:34:10

Hello all

David Spencer Hines has been a bully and nasty in a very personal and
uncalled for way for YEARS in newsgroups. My usage of this group
drops off on regular basis in large part because of the pointless
nastiness from him directed at people for no useful purpose. We have
lost many good and helpful people from here because of him. He has
also driven many people away from here that wanted to take the first
steps in learning about the subject.

That said, as much Schadenfreude many of us get in reading about his
past and present, it is hardly germane to the subject here.

There is only one answer to Hines, ignore him. In the years of
reading and contributing to this group I have yet to see anything from
him that would indicate that he has any scholarly interest in the
subject. As far as I can tell his only interest is sparking online
conflict and this somehow excites hi..

If you can not find yourself able to ignore him, have some pity for him
now that you have seen some information about his life and see how his
inability to address his issues has lead to constant problems in his
life. The man has shown over years here (and I presume in the rest of
his life) that he is incapable of normal interaction with other people.

So, if you are at the brunt of something from him, ignore it as you will
save yourself many hours of grief and he might begin to learn that he
has personal issues that he needs professional help with to remediate.

Bernard Schulmann
Victoria BC
Canada

ps Areas of interest to me are still: Baltic Germans, Rurkids,
Scandanavians and related people in the medieval era. Though I have
special interest in the Scottish migration to Sweden from 1550 to 1700
and would love to find the reputed link between the Macphersons of
Scotland and Fersens (or Versesns) of the Baltic Region

Doug McDonald

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 30 jul 2005 21:56:56

Bernard Schulmann wrote:

Hello all


That said, as much Schadenfreude many of us get in reading about his
past and present,


Let us say only this: if his military history is as described,
it leaves a very big question ... was he RIGHT??? The military
being what it is, one certainly cannot assume he was gotten rid of
because he was obnoxious and wrong. He may have been obnoxious and
right. As was learn the hard way once again on 9/11/2001, sometimes
it would pay to be right, when one is a spy.

Doug McDonald

Gordon Banks

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 30 jul 2005 22:17:17

I agree. Just another example of what kinds of nastiness this
tit-for-tat stuff leads to.

On Fri, 2005-07-29 at 22:49 +0000, James Toupin wrote:
Hey! Come on now guys. I disagree with Hines too, but this is simply
unnecessary cruelty. We all have episodes and failures in our lives that we
would rather not have splashed all over the internet. Disagree with him,
argue with him, point out the flaws in his reasoning, and express your own
point of view but the personal attacks just makes everyone in any newsgroup
look like petty, childish fools. Let us have discourse and debate, not
insults and debasing.

James


"The Ikon That Can Still Go" <CrayzeeGuy@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122667123.565250.111720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Cut and Paste from Usenet:


Commander David Spencer Hines, US Navy Retired.


He currently lives in Hawaii with his Japanese wife.
They have two children of either sex.


Hines is believed to have been unemployed for at least the last seven
years
after failed business adventures he started with money from his
father's
will.


The son of Admiral Wellington T Hines (war hero and pioneer of carrier
based
operations in the US Navy) Baby David's career was all mapped out for
him:
Yale, Officer Training - he was being groomed for a top slot at the
Pentagon.


But as with many great men, the son rarely lives up to expectations.


He was relieved for 'cause' on two separate occasions while serving in
the
United States Navy, the first being while assigned to Naval Security
Group
Activity Misawa, Japan, the second while assigned to CINCPAC's Intel
Division on Oahu.


The latter incident got him reassigned to Pearl Harbor here he assumed
the duties as housing officer, quite a demotion for one whose career
had such glowing promise as a junior officer.


Never endearing, and forever the outcast, this "pompous nautical ass"
laboured hard and doggedly for his promotions up to the rank of
Commander, but he ran into the 'eye of the storm' when he tried to
pull one tantrum after another in disagreement with a very sage
Captain who would go on to become Commander, U.S.Naval Security Group
Command!


He was yanked from his operational duties on the first occasion, and
appointed XO simply for the convenience of being under close scrutiny
by the C.O, and in a position less harassing to the other 700+ members
of the command.


This was NOT a promotion.


He served only as XO while the paperwork for his transfer made it
through
the bureaucratic chain back in Washington. That didn't take all that
long,
and before anyone knew it, D. Spencer Hines and his marvellous wife
(how
she's put up with him for all these years must remain one of the
world's
greatest mysteries), had departed Northern Honshu for the Hawaiian
Islands.


It's one thing to butt heads with a Captain, but when told to cool
your jets by a four-star and you still stand your ground, most wise
men
know that their careers will, at that very moment, gain great
momentum and a natural phenomenon of tailspins that have continued to
this
day!


In summary, in the words of a fellow officer who served with him:


" D Spencer Hines is one of the most arrogant jackasses to ever breath
and
walk upon the face of earth. He hadn't a clue what leadership was all
about,
and in the face of intelligence evaluation, he would always ask for a
point
paper when one's analysis varied from his - and that was often the
case.


"A towering man, of bulk and arrogance, this red headed barbarian is
not worth the grey hairs many of your constituents seem to be letting
themselves in for.


"He is his father's son, but nothing like his father, but rather, more
a quasi-nautical south seas jester at this stage in life whose open
sores apparently continue to ooze and your group are the swabs being
used to absorb all that ails this sick man during his transition to
senior citizenship!"


--

Gordon Banks <geb@gordonbanks.com>

Fred J. McCall

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Fred J. McCall » 30 jul 2005 23:59:29

Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> wrote in
news:dcgsot$l1f$6@reader2.panix.com:

In alt.history.british Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net
wrote:
Grey Satterfield <grey.satterfield@oscn.net> wrote in
news:BF10D4C3.1A268%grey.satterfield@oscn.net:

I agree. It's possible to go too far, even on Usenet, and this
is one of those times.

[Original scurrilous post about the Corpulent Commander
snipped.]

Given his comments to Sheila, it would seem that Commander Hiney
recognizes no such limitation. Therefore, I'm not so sure one
should be recognized when it comes to him....

Good grief Fred, you and I agree on something!

I've noticed it happens once in a while, Paul.

I just chalk you being right sometimes to the phenomenon that says
even a stopped clock is right twice a day. :-)

Of course there is a long list of women on the
internet he's treated this way, but hey...

But not in front of me....

[And I've had him in my killfile for a long, long time.]

--
This space for let.

Paul J Gans

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 31 jul 2005 00:51:26

In alt.history.british Fred J. McCall <fmccall@earthlink.net> wrote:
Grey Satterfield <grey.satterfield@oscn.net> wrote in
news:BF10D4C3.1A268%grey.satterfield@oscn.net:

I agree. It's possible to go too far, even on Usenet, and this is
one of those times.

[Original scurrilous post about the Corpulent Commander snipped.]

Given his comments to Sheila, it would seem that Commander Hiney
recognizes no such limitation. Therefore, I'm not so sure one should
be recognized when it comes to him....

Good grief Fred, you and I agree on something!

Of course there is a long list of women on the
internet he's treated this way, but hey...

---- Paul J. Gans

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: A better date for the death of Edward Boughton - 1548

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 31 jul 2005 03:45:02

Dear Robert
I have a couple collaterol Middlemors in my database in the mid to late
1600s:
Emma Middlemor of Edgebaston, Warwickshire married Walliston Betham of
Rowington, Warwickshire. Their daughter Bridget Betham married John
Middlemor of Edgebaston. I have no dates for them, but two of Bridget's
siblings were living in 1685, including Dr. John Betham who was "Tutor to
James the Old Pretender" The information is from an old Betham tree which I
found in Auckland at the time of the Commonwealth Games in 1990. (Small
boast - my son won the Gold Medal for pole-vault for Australia!!)
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia

-------Original Message-------

From: Robert O'Connor
Date: 07/30/05 18:46:56
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: A better date for the death of Edward Boughton - 1548

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message news:145.4a4a05f6.301c57d6@aol.com...
Edward Boughton of Brownsover, Dunchurch, Long Lawford and Little Lawford
was married to Elizabeth Willington, dau of William Willington of
Barcheston.

Dear will


As you appear from the above to be interested in the Broughton ancestry you
may also be interested in the Willingtons and their ancestral connections??

From Phillimore's 'Some Account of the Family of Middlemore' (a copy of
which I am fortunate enough to possess, the Middlemores forming part of my
own ancestry), p 35 the following details on William Willington may be
gleaned:

William Willington, Esq., of Barcheston, Co. Warw. M 1 st Anne (Died before
8 Nov. 1545), d. of Richard Middlemore, Esq., of Edgbaston, Co. Warw. & his
wife Margery, d. of Sir Thomas Throckmorton, Kt., of Coughton, Co. Warw. M
2nd 1545 his sister-in-law Anne, widow of Thomas Middlemore, Esq., of
Edgbaston, & d. of Richard Littleton, Esq., of Pillaton, Co. Staffs. Died
1555.

Elizabeth Willington, wife of Edward Broughton, was the daughter of William
Willington and his first wife Anne Middlemore.

I don't have any further information on William Willington as he does not
fall within my direct ancestry, but Anne Middlemore's male line ancestry is
thus (beginning with her earliest known male ancestor):

JOHN de MIDDLEMORE (2), of Studley & Solihull, Co Staffs., England., He was
named in the Subsidy Roll for Studley & Sollihull, 1327. Mentioned in
various legal transactions, 1332 to 1343. He was lawyer for Ralph de Perham
in relation to lands in Longdon, 1332. He was directed to arrest & lodge
certain criminals in Worcester Gaol, 1333. Appointed a Commissioner in an
inquest relating to the lands of the Abbot of Bordesley, 1336. M Lettice
(She granted to her son, John, premises in Solihull & Tanworth, 1343). Died
c. 1340. He had issue:
/
HENRY MIDDLEMORE (2), of Mapleborough, Studley., He was recorded as living
in 1335 & as lawyer for Thomas de Beauchamp in 1365. He was a defendant in
a plea of assize, 1368. He had issue:
/
THOMAS MIDDLEMORE (2), of Edgbaston, Co. Warw., M Isabel (She M 2nd Richard
Clodeshale, of Saltley, whose will was Proved at P.C.C., August 1428. She
died c. 1423), d. & heir of Richard de Edgbaston, Esq., of Edgbaston, Co.
Warw. (See EDGBASTON). Citizen of London. He took possession of Edgbaston
in right of his wife. He was mentioned in an inquisition held as to the
founding of the Guild of the Holy Cross in Birmingham, 1392. An inquisition
as to his estate was taken at Birmingham, which showed that he was seised of
the manor of Edgbaston and lands in Studley, 10 March 1396. He, his wife, &
son John, were defendants in a suit by Thomas Porter, of Edgbaston, 1400.
He had licence to found a chantry in Studley Church, called Middlemore's
chapel, 1405. Died c. 1410. He had issue:
/
JOHN MIDDLEMORE (2), of Edgbaston, Co. Warw., M Agnes Waldive (She M 2nd
William Lucy). He was listed as one of the persons required to take the
oath not to maintain peace breakers, 1 May 1434. Died 1446. Bur. in
Edgbaston Church. He had issue:
/
RICHARD MIDDLEMORE, of Edgbaston, Co. Warw., Born before 1446. On his
father's death in 1446 he was a minor, & consequently was made a ward of Sir
William Birmingham, Kt., of Birmingham, Warw. He was one of the jurors at
the I.P.M. of Sir William Birmingham, Kt., 1478. In 1483 he witnessed a
grant of the manor of Arley made by Sir William Littleton, Kt., of Frankley,
Co. Worc. In 1490 he was a party with his nephew, John, to a final concord
relating to lands in King's Norton. He built the north arcade to St.
Bartholomew's Church, Edgbaston, 1500. M c. 1470 Margery (Born c. 1450.
Named as executrix of her husband's will, 28 Nov. 1502. Will dated 14 Aug.
1530. Died 1530. Will Proved at P.C.C., 6 Feb. 1530/1), d. of Sir Thomas
Throckmorton, Kt., of Coughton, Co. Worc. & his wife Margaret, d. of Sir
Robert Olney, Kt. (See THROCKMORTON). Will dated 28 Nov. 1502 - described
in his will as "Lord of Edgbaston". Died 16 Feb. 1502/3. Will Proved at
P.C.C., 14 March 1502/3. I.P.M., 1503. He had issue:
/
ANNE MIDDLEMORE, M William Willington above.

If any of this should be relevant to your interest I can happily let you
have my full Middlemore file detailing the Middlemore family in its many
lines. The Trockmorton connection is also easily traced and I can provide
details of that family should you so require.

Best wishes
Robert O'Connor

hippo

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av hippo » 31 jul 2005 05:00:10

"James Toupin" wrote in message

I don't defend Hine's actions against you, however I am fairly new to the
news group and this was the first post that I had seen with such a
thorough
and brutal evisceration of someone on a personal level. I realise that it
is
not always easy to ignore attacks or insults that may be hurled at you,
but
stooping to the level of the one who you feel has abused you certainly
will
not do anything for you or help you to argue your points to the newsgroup
at
large. My suggestion is to take the high road and argue your points in a
firm, logical, and rational manor within the newsgroup. If the debate
turns
into a personal attack against you, then you always have the option of
conducting that personal argument on a personal level through E-mail with
your attacker. Although even then you lower yourself to his level.

Maybe being new to the newsgroup, and newsgroups as a whole, I am naive
and
expect too much from the medium. I would hope, however that these forums
could be a place where points can be raised, countered, and debated in a
vigorous yet civil manor.

With hope and naivety;
James

We all hope that, James, but sometimes a reminder from just such a person as
yourself is a needed reminder of how we most look to others is needed and,
from my part at least, very welcome. -the Troll

D. Spencer Hines

Re: England's/Britain's Homosexual Kings

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 31 jul 2005 06:03:02

Yep....

It's a Metropolitan Myth, fondly held by the Homosexual Lobby.

There is no truth to it.

DSH

"Charlie Anderson" <charlesefa@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ZDXGe.71816$s54.57182@pd7tw2no...

| Doug Weller wrote:
|
| >
| >I think any list of Britain's possibly homosexual kings must include
| >Richard I.
| >
|
| Not to belabour an old topic, but that theory has been shot out of the
| water by John Gillingham.
|
| Read his two biographies of Richard I for further details. 1978 and
| 1999. The first does a more comprehensive job of analysing the
| evidence, but the second also deals with it.
|
| Charlie Anderson, Vancouver

a.spencer3

Re: (RSPW Recruiting) D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 31 jul 2005 11:52:41

"James Toupin" <jtoupin@telus.net> wrote in message
news:HEOGe.171634$tt5.22882@edtnps90...
I don't defend Hine's actions against you, however I am fairly new to the
news group and this was the first post that I had seen with such a
thorough
and brutal evisceration of someone on a personal level. I realise that it
is
not always easy to ignore attacks or insults that may be hurled at you,
but
stooping to the level of the one who you feel has abused you certainly
will
not do anything for you or help you to argue your points to the newsgroup
at
large. My suggestion is to take the high road and argue your points in a
firm, logical, and rational manor within the newsgroup. If the debate
turns
into a personal attack against you, then you always have the option of
conducting that personal argument on a personal level through E-mail with
your attacker. Although even then you lower yourself to his level.

Maybe being new to the newsgroup, and newsgroups as a whole, I am naive
and
expect too much from the medium. I would hope, however that these forums
could be a place where points can be raised, countered, and debated in a
vigorous yet civil manor.


Pyrbright or Pyrford?

Surreyman

Luke Potter

Re: William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to the regi

Legg inn av Luke Potter » 31 jul 2005 16:52:01

Robert Bearman does not make any mention of the connection of the
Redvers/Vernon line to Fulk, Osmund and Gunnor. Indeed the ancestry of
Richard de Redvers is only touched upon in one paragraph in the
introduction. In it he argues that Richard cannot have been son of
William as the charter this was based upon was incorrectly translated,
and then goes on to suggest that the argument put forward by the
Thomas Stapleton in the 1840s in _Magni Rotuli Scaccarii
Normanniae_(1844, vol.2, pp.cclxix-cclxxx) was probably correct. In
this Stapleton had put forward the argument that Richard was son of
the Baldwin of 1060, apparently mainly due to the fact that Richard
named his first son Baldwin. Bearman however then concluded by stating
that the obscurity of the origin of Richard de Redvers was really
proof by itself of how he was one of Henry I's new men who owed
everything they had to Royal favour.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, Bearman does not seem to have been
aware of the twelfth century charter by Richard de Vernon of Vernon
which mentioned his ancestor William de Vernon who was buried in
Vernon church. This does seem to negate the argument that his
grandfather Richard de Redvers was son of Baldwin de Redvers and not
William de Vernon. Furthermore it is interesting that Thomas Stapleton
too did find this evidence after he had published his thoughts on the
family in 1844. An privately printed volume entitled _Historical
Memoirs of the House of Vernon_ appears to have been written in the
later 1840s or early 1850s. [One copy is at the archives at the
William Salt Library, Lichfield, England] In this he argued that
Richard de Redvers was indeed a son of William de Vernon.

As for the 1060 charter, I seem to have lost the copy I had of it so I
will need to get this out again. However the Raher who is mentioned in
it does seem to occur in a couple of later charters of William de
Vernon.

The 1067x1077 charter of William de Vernon and Emma to Holy Trinity,
Rouen, was witnessed by Raber Longus. Another undated charter
confirming the gifts of Emma of Longueville, the mother of an Ivo, was
also witnessed by both William of Vernon and 'Raberii Longi'.
Interestingly William's 1077 charter to the Abbey of Bec is also
witnessed by a Roger son of Raher. I presume that the Longus element
of the name is derived from nearby Longueville, but whether there was
a blood as well as geographic connection between Raher and William I
don't think can be proved (at least with the current evidence I have
seen)

Luke





paul bulkley wrote:
Dear Ginny, Todd and Luke:

I have just obtained a copy of Bearman's "Charters of
the Redvers Family", and it is quite clear that there
is no need for any crazy theory like mine!

Richard de Reviers (Redvers) was awarded numerous
properties by Henry Ist 1100/1101 in recognition of
his loyal service to Henry. Q.E.D.

The Redver's pedigree, according to Bearman and Keats
Rohan would appear to be something like this:

Hugh de Vernon married daughter of Fulk Fitz Osmond.
Children: Richard, William, and Baldwin.

This is the same relationship reported in DP that I just called into
question. Does Bearman give any indication why these three are made
grandsons of Fulk, and not nephews as Robert of Torigny would have it
(at least with regard to Baldwin)? I don't have handy access to Robert,
but I don't think this is a 'nepos' problem - all authors I have seen,
from White to Van Houts to Keats-Rohan indicate that Baldwin was son of
Osmund's daughter, not his granddaughter.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

Re: William Fitz Osbern's alleged sons according to the regi

Legg inn av Todd A. Farmerie » 31 jul 2005 18:11:25

Luke Potter wrote:
Robert Bearman does not make any mention of the connection of the
Redvers/Vernon line to Fulk, Osmund and Gunnor.

OK, so Keats-Roham making Baldwin grandson fo Fulk is new to DP, and
must, I think, be an error (at least as it is phrased).


As I mentioned in my earlier post, Bearman does not seem to have been
aware of the twelfth century charter by Richard de Vernon of Vernon
which mentioned his ancestor William de Vernon who was buried in
Vernon church. This does seem to negate the argument that his
grandfather Richard de Redvers was son of Baldwin de Redvers and not
William de Vernon.

Not necessarily. I recall at least one documented example where
"antecessor meus" was used for a (related) predicessor in a holding (in
other words, "the one from whom I inherited my interest") who was not
direct ancestor. For Richard, this would apply to William either way,
as there seems no doubt some of William's holdings went to Richard.

I guess the question is, what was behind Keats-Rohan and Stapleton
thinking it was Baldwin and not William to begin with? Richard had a
brother Hugh, and William a son. Keats Rohan seems to think these are
distinct men, in which case making Richard son of William is a lot less
likely, but what if they were the same - it would make it a certainty.

taf

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