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John Higgins

Re: Rogerson, an Aldermanic family from Chester 1400s~1500s

Legg inn av John Higgins » 14 jul 2005 18:45:02

Thanks for posting this information on the Rogerson family, which sheds some
light on this little-known family.

You are likely aware of this, but there is a pedigree of the Offley family
that was published in vols. 19 and 20 of "The Genealogist" [new series] and
includes a brief discussion of the Rogerson connection, with indications
that there may be a connection to a Rogers family of London.

"The will of David Rogers, Cit. and Grocer of London, pr. P.C.C. 1582,
mentions his cousin Robert Offley, his brother Edw. Wylde, and his cousin
Hughe Rogerson, Alderman; and that of his uncle John Rogers, also Cit. and
Grocer of London, pr. P.C.C. 30 Dec. 1589, mentions his "cousin germyn" Mr.
Robert Offley, and also Mr. William and Mr. Hughe Offley."

If the Offley pedigree is correct, Elizabeth Rogerson and William Offley are
ancestors of Princess Diana, and William Offley is also her ancestor via a
daughter of his first marriage.

----- Original Message -----
From: <ToddWhitesides@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:11 PM
Subject: Rogerson, an Aldermanic family from Chester 1400s~1500s


I would appreciate any assistance on the early history of the Rogerson
family, a politically active family in Chester in the 1400s and 1500s.
William
Rogerson served as Mayor of Chester from 1447 to 1449, and Robert
Rogerson in
1463-64 and 1471-72.

I can support with documentation my lineage back to William Rogerson (d.
1519), Ironmonger and Alderman of Chester, who served as Mayor in 1510-11.
His
will [PRO prob/11/19] was written 18 Apr. 1519 and recorded on 31 May
1519.
He requested burial in the Church of St. Peter in Chester by the body of
his
wife Margaret. In it he made a donation "to the makyng of the newe
steple of
the College Church of Saint John of Chester." He left his house in
Chester
and his house in Stapleford to his eldest son Rauffe Rogerson . He
mentioned
his siblings: Hugh Rogerson, Thomas Rogerson, and Alice Thornton.
Besides
his eldest son Rauffe he had the following children: Thomas Rogerson,
Agnes
Rogerson, Margery, Johna Yure (Eure?), Alice Barton, and Elizabeth
Offeley
[wife of Will'm Offeley].

His eldest son Rauffe Rogerson (alias Ralph Rogers with other variations)
was also an Ironmonger and Alderman of Chester, and he served as Mayor in
1534-35. His will [PRO prob/11/26] was written 1 Oct. 1539 and recorded
on 7 Feb
1540. He requested "to be buryed in the Trynytie Churche w'in Seynt
Patryck
Chappell there." His sister Elizabeth Offeley was the first of the
witnesses
to his will.

Elizabeth (Rogerson) Offeley was the second wife of William Offeley (d.
1560), Sheriff of Chester, and they were buried in the Church of St. Peter
in
Chester. She was the ancestor of at least three colonial North
Americans:
Sarah (Offley) Thorogood (1609-1657) of Lynnhaven, Princess Anne Co.,
Virginia;
William Brewster (alias Sackford Brewster), Gent., of Sackford Hall,
Suffolk,
and Surry County, Virginia (who died between 1655 and 1669); and Richard
Edelen (ca. 1639-1695), Gent., of St. Andrew Undershaft Parish, London,
and Saint
Mary's County, Maryland.

charlotte Smith

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL-D Digest V05 #524 Dallenridge

Legg inn av charlotte Smith » 14 jul 2005 22:31:02

I; have the email address of Nigel Saul and if you want I will give it to you and maybe he will help you with this copy. Let me know. Charlotte Smith


Charlotsmith@prodigy.net

Charani

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL-D Digest V05 #524 Dallenridge

Legg inn av Charani » 14 jul 2005 23:29:18

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:30:47 +0000 (UTC), charlotte Smith wrote:

I; have the email address of Nigel Saul and if you want I will give
it to you and maybe he will help you with this copy. Let me know.

Many thanks :))

You have mail.

Gjest

Re: Rogerson, an Aldermanic family from Chester 1400s~1500s

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 jul 2005 01:35:02

_RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Re: Rogerson, an Aldermanic family from Chester
1400s~1500s_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1121359266)


John~

I have seen the information you mentioned but in a book format ~ An Account
of the Offley Family Written in the Days of James I. by an Unknown Author to
which is added A Pedigree Compiled by G.C. Bower and H.W.F. Harwood. (Thirty
copies privately reprinted from The Genealogist, N.S., Vols. XIX and XX).
Exeter: Printed by Wm. Pollard & Co. Ltd., 39 & 40, North Street. 1904.
Are you a descendant of the Offley family as well?

Todd Whitesides

Gjest

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 jul 2005 05:05:57

It's not a matter of what I am or am not saying. The tradition I cite
is a fact. I have no idea whether or not it was in use during King
David's time. Are you suggesting that there is no such matrilineal
tradition?

Gjest

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 jul 2005 07:32:02

In a message dated 7/14/2005 9:14:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lostcooper@yahoo.com writes:


It's not a matter of what I am or am not saying. The tradition I cite
is a fact. I have no idea whether or not it was in use during King
David's time. Are you suggesting that there is no such matrilineal
tradition?


If it's a *fact* then you should have no problem finding a credible source
who will state that. Is it also a *fact* that you have no idea that David in
his matrilineal line is not Hebrew? I'm sure you've heard of the Book of Ruth.
Did you not know that Ruth is not a Hebrew? So that makes David some sort of
usurper I suppose.

Will Johnson

R. Battle

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy (OT)

Legg inn av R. Battle » 15 jul 2005 07:39:20

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

<snip>
Is it also a *fact* that you have no idea that David in
his matrilineal line is not Hebrew? I'm sure you've heard of the Book
of Ruth. Did you not know that Ruth is not a Hebrew? So that makes
David some sort of usurper I suppose.
snip


Not that this is on topic here, but in point of fact according to the book
of Ruth the titular lady was not David's matrilineal ancestor but rather
the mother of Obed, David's paternal grandfather. That being said, at
least through Bible times the paternal line was the most important, that
determining one's tribe (as well as who could lawfully be priests, etc.).
I'm not sure when the maternal line became so important in Jewish
tradition, though I would be interested to learn (I'm guessing it
coincided with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the beginnings of
rabbinic rather than priestly leadership).

-Robert Battle

CED

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av CED » 15 jul 2005 22:30:53

To the group:
Since the posting to which the above response no longer appears, here
it is:
Since you have the knowledge maybe you would like to answer the
question's. Or are you a sponger and like to sit back and still other's
research and not give them credit.

Mike
Unlike CED who has no name and is posting under somebody else email
account
CED

CED

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av CED » 15 jul 2005 22:33:24

DSH:

Who cares whether one has credibility with you?

CED

Ernst Hoffmann

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, an advice to greatest living expe

Legg inn av Ernst Hoffmann » 15 jul 2005 22:34:02

Pompeo Conte Litta <di Milano> lived during the first half of the
19th century (i.e. when the United States were still young!)
His "Storia delle famiglie celebri italiane" is a major work at the
STARTING point of the italian scjientific genealogy.....
HE has the undispensable merit of collecting available information
on the beginnings of noble italian families in the early medieval
period
AND trying to merge them into proper lineages..... Not all of his
THEORIES have survived into modern times, baut all of them are still
worth to be duely considered (BEFORE discarding them easily)
One thing is for sure: He was in command of his native Italian
language AND its source languages.
He was also aware of the fact, that "Gorizia" was not a FIRST name
like Giovanna but rather a construction like
"Edmund of Woodstock" , "John of Gaunt", "Lionel of Antwerp" or
"Edmund of Langley"...... ONE THING is for sure;
NOBODY (and his brethren) called her "Giovanna del Sabran" and
NOBODY argues about the dates of her birth nor
her death. Both dates are simply UNKNOWN: (Her "birth-certificate"
apparently got lost before it was even drawn up). Her parents are
assumed..... at best
An investigation into the "causa matrimoniae" of Nicolo conte di
Nola with a certain Maria del Balzo produced little conclusive
evidence:
(The bestman could not be located to give an affidavit, sadly he had
died a little while ago (about give and take 600 years)).
It is based on the fact, that Nicolo was sometimes called "del
Balzo" (which <at your own discretion> could stem from his mother being
Sueva des Baux (with him as a heir) or "iure uxoris" of a wife from
a marriage Balzano-Orsini). <Well, I have not personally seen the
original
source document from the Questura; "Niccolo Orsini aka Niccolo del
Balzo" either>
Ernst
>

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 15 jul 2005 23:39:17

CED wrote:
DSH:

Who cares whether one has credibility with you?

CED

I care.

DR

Peter Stewart

Re: OT credibility Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabr

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 jul 2005 00:31:45

""Leo"" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000901c58994$44a905a0$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
For a person's opinion to count that person him/herself needs to have
credibility.
How do you get credibility? By contributing or producing. Where does
Spencer Hines fit in? Except for bile or a few superb ancestorlists is it
now five years ago?---tell me what has Hines produced? If he can't carp he
won't _contribute_ most of the time.

Yes and no - some of his carping IS a contribution, but less and less as
time goes on.

In any case, Richardson is barking up a dead tree if he seriously hopes that
Hines believe and trust him. The recent sycohpancy is just a pose, that came
about becasue Hines couldn't bring himself to admit his total ignorance of
Latin and some other follies. Then he decided that an alliance with his
fellow pretender in this regard might be useful: misery loves company.

The credibility of Hines, such as it was, depended on people believing that
he was a man of superior education and culture. He blew this to smithereens.
Richardson never has more than shards of learning to start with. Now they
make a good pair, Humpty Dumpty and Dumpty Spencer Humpty.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jul 2005 00:50:02

I read on http://www.tudorplace.com that Barbara Gamage was "one of the wealthiest
heiresses in England" upon her father's death.

Why then is there confusion on her parentage?
Per Leo's site her mother was Catherine Powell
Per tudorplace.com her mother was Gwenlleian, widow of Watkins Thomas

Can anyone shed light on this? Apparently secondary sources are at conflict
and so what do we have in the way of a definitive answer?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Update to genealogics re Thomas Gamage / Margaret St Joh

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jul 2005 01:13:02

On Leo's helpful website we find this couple Thomas Gamage and Margaret St
John with no associated dates. To this I add this helpful article from the
online a2a catalog


From the a2a catalog
Deeds and estate papers of the Danvers family of Thornbury, Glos., and
Swainswick (Somerset)
Catalogue Ref. D1928
Creator(s):Danvers family of Thornbury, Gloucestershire and Swainswick,
Somerset
FAMILY
FILE [no title] - ref. D1928/F1 - date: 1497
[from Scope and Content] Settlement before the marriage between Thos. Gamage,
Lord of "Coytyff" [Coyty Castle, Glamorgan] in the March of Wales and Margt.
dr. of Sir John St. John, Kt.


Will Johnson

Leo

Re: Update to genealogics re Thomas Gamage / Margaret St Joh

Legg inn av Leo » 16 jul 2005 01:21:02

Sadly my information came from CP and Gerald Paget, CP shouldn't but Paget
could have shown dates if he was aware.but, I looked first before typing
this, there are no dates mentioned.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Update to genealogics re Thomas Gamage / Margaret St John


On Leo's helpful website we find this couple Thomas Gamage and Margaret St
John with no associated dates. To this I add this helpful article from
the
online a2a catalog


From the a2a catalog
Deeds and estate papers of the Danvers family of Thornbury, Glos., and
Swainswick (Somerset)
Catalogue Ref. D1928
Creator(s):Danvers family of Thornbury, Gloucestershire and Swainswick,
Somerset
FAMILY
FILE [no title] - ref. D1928/F1 - date: 1497
[from Scope and Content] Settlement before the marriage between Thos.
Gamage,
Lord of "Coytyff" [Coyty Castle, Glamorgan] in the March of Wales and
Margt.
dr. of Sir John St. John, Kt.


Will Johnson


Leo

OT credibility Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Leo » 16 jul 2005 01:25:02

For a person's opinion to count that person him/herself needs to have
credibility.
How do you get credibility? By contributing or producing. Where does Spencer
Hines fit in? Except for bile or a few superb ancestorlists is it now five
years ago?---tell me what has Hines produced? If he can't carp he won't
_contribute_ most of the time.


----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran


CED wrote:
DSH:

Who cares whether one has credibility with you?

CED

I care.

DR


Leo

CP Ommission Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Pever

Legg inn av Leo » 16 jul 2005 01:34:02

Dear Wil,

This is a good one!! Gerald Paget is often a good guide but he is known to
have errors in his huge book on the ancestors of Prince Charles.

The parents of Barbara Gamage are recorded as
N14811 John Gamage of Coity
N 14812 Catherine Powell
No dates are given for either.

As Barbara married the 1st Earl of Leicester CP could (but doesn't) give the
answer.
CP VII Pages 553 and 554 only give her father as John Gamage of Coity.
Volume XIV does not give her mother either.
Does anyone know?
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of John


I read on http://www.tudorplace.com that Barbara Gamage was "one of the wealthiest
heiresses in England" upon her father's death.

Why then is there confusion on her parentage?
Per Leo's site her mother was Catherine Powell
Per tudorplace.com her mother was Gwenlleian, widow of Watkins Thomas

Can anyone shed light on this? Apparently secondary sources are at
conflict
and so what do we have in the way of a definitive answer?

Thanks
Will Johnson


Gjest

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jul 2005 02:57:02

Dear Browen,
If the ancient Jewish tradition were about matrilineal
(mother-daughter) descents being Jews then why do the Old Testament genealogies
all focus on patrlineal (father- son) descents as the Old Testament appears
to have Jewish in origin?
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jul 2005 03:32:02

In a message dated 7/15/05 3:49:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson writes:

<< I read on http://www.tudorplace.com that Barbara Gamage was "one of the
wealthiest heiresses in England" upon her father's death.

Why then is there confusion on her parentage?
Per Leo's site her mother was Catherine Powell
Per tudorplace.com her mother was Gwenlleian, widow of Watkins Thomas >>
---------------------------
Wales Annals and Antiquities, Volumes I-II : Annals Antiquities of the
Counties County Families of Wales, pg 587
has this to say

"John Gamage m Gwenllian, dau and h of Sir Thomas ap Jenkin Powell of
Glyn-Ogwr, and had issue Barbara, sole heiress, b 1562, m in or before 1584, Sir
Robert Sydney, second son of Sir Henry Sydney..."

So now I have a birthyear for Barbara and feel better about giving her the
mother Gwenllian Powell.

Am I reading this correctly that Sir Thomas Powell was the son of Jenkin
Powell ? Is that what "ap" means?

Thanks
Will Johnson

norenxaq

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av norenxaq » 16 jul 2005 03:43:01

"John Gamage m Gwenllian, dau and h of Sir Thomas ap Jenkin Powell of
Glyn-Ogwr, and had issue Barbara, sole heiress, b 1562, m in or before 1584, Sir
Robert Sydney, second son of Sir Henry Sydney..."

So now I have a birthyear for Barbara and feel better about giving her the
mother Gwenllian Powell.

Am I reading this correctly that Sir Thomas Powell was the son of Jenkin
Powell ? Is that what "ap" means?

Thanks
Will Johnson

you are reading that correctly

Peter Stewart

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 jul 2005 04:29:23

""Leo"" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000301c589ac$51013120$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
I think you cracked the problem. Catherine Powell and Gwenllian Powell is
one and the same person. Paget had it _slightly_ wrong.

Goodness me, Leo - surely you are forgetting the third triplet, Gorizia
Powell.

Remember the Richardson rules: two different names can't apply to the same
person if he didn't think so at first, and no-one can survive making a will
longer than he thinks appropriate.

Peter Stewart

Leo

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Leo » 16 jul 2005 05:16:00

I think you cracked the problem. Catherine Powell and Gwenllian Powell is
one and the same person. Paget had it _slightly_ wrong.
Thanks for this.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of John


In a message dated 7/15/05 3:49:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson
writes:

I read on http://www.tudorplace.com that Barbara Gamage was "one of the
wealthiest heiresses in England" upon her father's death.

Why then is there confusion on her parentage?
Per Leo's site her mother was Catherine Powell
Per tudorplace.com her mother was Gwenlleian, widow of Watkins Thomas
---------------------------
Wales Annals and Antiquities, Volumes I-II : Annals Antiquities of the
Counties County Families of Wales, pg 587
has this to say

"John Gamage m Gwenllian, dau and h of Sir Thomas ap Jenkin Powell of
Glyn-Ogwr, and had issue Barbara, sole heiress, b 1562, m in or before
1584, Sir
Robert Sydney, second son of Sir Henry Sydney..."

So now I have a birthyear for Barbara and feel better about giving her the
mother Gwenllian Powell.

Am I reading this correctly that Sir Thomas Powell was the son of Jenkin
Powell ? Is that what "ap" means?

Thanks
Will Johnson


Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 16 jul 2005 10:09:11

Peter Stewart wrote:
""Leo"" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000301c589ac$51013120$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
I think you cracked the problem. Catherine Powell and Gwenllian Powell is
one and the same person. Paget had it _slightly_ wrong.

Goodness me, Leo - surely you are forgetting the third triplet, Gorizia
Powell.

Remember the Richardson rules: two different names can't apply to the same
person if he didn't think so at first, and no-one can survive making a will
longer than he thinks appropriate.

Peter Stewart

Dear Peter ~

You're misrepresenting the facts again. Badly, I might add. I have no
"rules." I do ask that all genealogical connections be based on
evidence, not on your typical philosophy, "it's true because I say it
is."

So, Peter - what evidence do you have that Gorizia, wife of Count
Niccolo Orsini, existed? What evidence do you have that she was the
same person as his proven wife, Giovanna?

If you're unable to provide the evidence, then you will be guilty of
the same thing you accused Dr. Kelley. You have collapsed two people
into one person, because you thought they had similar sounding names.
Gosh, before you know it, you'll be a Kelley-ite style of genealogist.
And, that would actually be an improvement.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Peter Stewart

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 jul 2005 10:25:15

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121504950.999658.242980@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:
""Leo"" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000301c589ac$51013120$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
I think you cracked the problem. Catherine Powell and Gwenllian Powell
is
one and the same person. Paget had it _slightly_ wrong.

Goodness me, Leo - surely you are forgetting the third triplet, Gorizia
Powell.

Remember the Richardson rules: two different names can't apply to the
same
person if he didn't think so at first, and no-one can survive making a
will
longer than he thinks appropriate.

Peter Stewart

Dear Peter ~

You're misrepresenting the facts again. Badly, I might add. I have no
"rules." I do ask that all genealogical connections be based on
evidence, not on your typical philosophy, "it's true because I say it
is."

So, Peter - what evidence do you have that Gorizia, wife of Count
Niccolo Orsini, existed?

None, you fool - I only said that LITTA called a woman Gorizia whom others
call Giovanna, and that a MEDIEVAL SOURCE FOR THIS is not known.

What evidence do you have that she was the same person as his proven wife,
Giovanna?

The woman Litta called Gorizia has NEVER been represented otherwise, except
in the past few days by YOU.

If you're unable to provide the evidence, then you will be guilty of
the same thing you accused Dr. Kelley. You have collapsed two people
into one person, because you thought they had similar sounding names.
Gosh, before you know it, you'll be a Kelley-ite style of genealogist.
And, that would actually be an improvement.

Characteristic, blatant nonsense - your crude deceits can't change this
simple fact: I have nothing to prove beyond that Litta was the source for
calling Giovanna Gorizia, and the proof of that is to be found in LITTA
(apart from the support in Watson and Roberts already cited that you ignore
but can't refute), where you can look for it if you are not convinced.

There is no similarity even between your absurd & false allegation above and
the behaviour of Kelley - that of course you STILL haven't tried to defend.

YOU are the one proposing that Litta's Gorizia Sabrano is not meant to be
the same as Giovanna Sabrano, despite the same parentage and the same
marriage. This bizarre proposal is yet to be substantiated by anything more
than your obtuse idea that a person can't make a will and then live on for
several decades, although you haven't tried to prove this for the particular
woman under discussion anyway.

Prolonging your embarrassment on this matter is not in your own interests,
but apparently you are helpless to stop.

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 16 jul 2005 10:40:47

Dear Peter ~

Now that you have admitted you have no evidence, it's a wonder you ever
bothered to post at all.

Good genealogy is based on evidence, not opinions. No evidence =
opinion. Simple as that.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Peter Stewart wrote:
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121504950.999658.242980@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:
""Leo"" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000301c589ac$51013120$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
I think you cracked the problem. Catherine Powell and Gwenllian Powell
is
one and the same person. Paget had it _slightly_ wrong.

Goodness me, Leo - surely you are forgetting the third triplet, Gorizia
Powell.

Remember the Richardson rules: two different names can't apply to the
same
person if he didn't think so at first, and no-one can survive making a
will
longer than he thinks appropriate.

Peter Stewart

Dear Peter ~

You're misrepresenting the facts again. Badly, I might add. I have no
"rules." I do ask that all genealogical connections be based on
evidence, not on your typical philosophy, "it's true because I say it
is."

So, Peter - what evidence do you have that Gorizia, wife of Count
Niccolo Orsini, existed?

None, you fool - I only said that LITTA called a woman Gorizia whom others
call Giovanna, and that a MEDIEVAL SOURCE FOR THIS is not known.

What evidence do you have that she was the same person as his proven wife,
Giovanna?

The woman Litta called Gorizia has NEVER been represented otherwise, except
in the past few days by YOU.

If you're unable to provide the evidence, then you will be guilty of
the same thing you accused Dr. Kelley. You have collapsed two people
into one person, because you thought they had similar sounding names.
Gosh, before you know it, you'll be a Kelley-ite style of genealogist.
And, that would actually be an improvement.

Characteristic, blatant nonsense - your crude deceits can't change this
simple fact: I have nothing to prove beyond that Litta was the source for
calling Giovanna Gorizia, and the proof of that is to be found in LITTA
(apart from the support in Watson and Roberts already cited that you ignore
but can't refute), where you can look for it if you are not convinced.

There is no similarity even between your absurd & false allegation above and
the behaviour of Kelley - that of course you STILL haven't tried to defend.

YOU are the one proposing that Litta's Gorizia Sabrano is not meant to be
the same as Giovanna Sabrano, despite the same parentage and the same
marriage. This bizarre proposal is yet to be substantiated by anything more
than your obtuse idea that a person can't make a will and then live on for
several decades, although you haven't tried to prove this for the particular
woman under discussion anyway.

Prolonging your embarrassment on this matter is not in your own interests,
but apparently you are helpless to stop.

Peter Stewart

CED

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av CED » 16 jul 2005 10:54:18

Mr Richardson:

You are twisting the burden of proof again. You are contending that
Gorizia, wife of Niccolo Orsini, is a separate person from Giovanna de
Sabran. Therefore, the burden is upon you to document that Gorizia
ever existed. Unwarranted shifting the burden of proof is not
honorable or scholarly. What evidence do you have that Gorizia ever
existed? That is the question.

CED

Peter Stewart

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 jul 2005 11:12:24

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121506847.340845.186810@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dear Peter ~

Now that you have admitted you have no evidence, it's a wonder you ever
bothered to post at all.

Good genealogy is based on evidence, not opinions. No evidence =
opinion. Simple as that.

Clearly Richardson wants the newsgroup to see what contempt he has for it,
to persist in such outright stupidity.

Once more: NO-ONE but Richardson himself has maintained an independent
existence for Gorizia. There CAN BE no evidence for this if she did not
exist apart from a shadow name for someone otherwise known as Giovanna. For
the latter there is evidence, for the former only an alternative name given
by Litta.

This can't be made any plainer. Richardon's refusal to acknowledge the
obvious is proof that he regards this forum as a place where he can make an
idiot of himself with impunity, so long as he gets all the information he
needs to go into his next book without the trouble of seeking this out for
himself.

Litta can be found in print, where his work should be consulted by a scholar
interested in what he had to say. Sponging up information from posts on
Usenet is not an acceptable way to avoid the task of verifying what this
FROM HIS OWN WORDS if you persis in doubting what you have been told from
three different reports.


Peter Stewart

CED

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av CED » 16 jul 2005 17:43:59

To the newsgroup:

Mr. Richardson is again twisting the argument. The burden is on him,
not anybody else, to prove that Gorizia ever existed.

Mr Richardson has found himself in an untenable position, in that he
first intoduced the website in the "Italian language" in which Niccolo
Orsini's wife was named Gorizia. Peter Stewart did not introduce her
name. Now, because Mr. Richardson, well known for not being able to
handle languages, has found himself in the awkward position of
introducing ill-founded evidence, he is attempting to place the burden
elsewhere.

This has been obvious to any of who has followed this argument, an
argument created by Mr. Richardson; however, he will not let it go. He
apparently wants to hammer Mr. Stewart with a false charge, charge of
which Mr. Richardson is guilty.

Mr. Stewart has no allegation to withdraw and no position for which he
needs proof. Mr. Richardson does, however.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 16 jul 2005 18:06:01

In message of 16 Jul, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

You're misrepresenting the facts again. Badly, I might add. I have no
"rules." I do ask that all genealogical connections be based on
evidence, not on your typical philosophy, "it's true because I say it
is."

And we can find in the archives on several occasions the famous rule of
eighty five, for instance, royalances...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
wrote in 2002:

" ... I usually figure on 85 years for three generations ..."

This sounds like a rule (of thumb) if ever there was one.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 16 jul 2005 18:18:56

This is a rule of thumb, Tim, not a rule. Please don't misrepresent
things.

Even so, I'm glad to see you've learned something helpful. It's made
my day.

DR

Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
In message of 16 Jul, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

You're misrepresenting the facts again. Badly, I might add. I have no
"rules." I do ask that all genealogical connections be based on
evidence, not on your typical philosophy, "it's true because I say it
is."

And we can find in the archives on several occasions the famous rule of
eighty five, for instance, royalances...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
wrote in 2002:

" ... I usually figure on 85 years for three generations ..."

This sounds like a rule (of thumb) if ever there was one.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 16 jul 2005 18:21:14

No evidence = opinion.

DR

CED wrote:
To the newsgroup:

Mr. Richardson is again twisting the argument. The burden is on him,
not anybody else, to prove that Gorizia ever existed.

Mr Richardson has found himself in an untenable position, in that he
first intoduced the website in the "Italian language" in which Niccolo
Orsini's wife was named Gorizia. Peter Stewart did not introduce her
name. Now, because Mr. Richardson, well known for not being able to
handle languages, has found himself in the awkward position of
introducing ill-founded evidence, he is attempting to place the burden
elsewhere.

This has been obvious to any of who has followed this argument, an
argument created by Mr. Richardson; however, he will not let it go. He
apparently wants to hammer Mr. Stewart with a false charge, charge of
which Mr. Richardson is guilty.

Mr. Stewart has no allegation to withdraw and no position for which he
needs proof. Mr. Richardson does, however.

CED

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av CED » 16 jul 2005 19:08:39

Mr. Richardson:

So you agree! You have no evidence, only opinion.

CED

Gjest

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 jul 2005 19:22:02

In a message dated 7/16/2005 10:14:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@powys.org
writes:


In message of 16 Jul, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

You're misrepresenting the facts again. Badly, I might add. I have no
"rules." I do ask that all genealogical connections be based on
evidence, not on your typical philosophy, "it's true because I say it
is."

And we can find in the archives on several occasions the famous rule of
eighty five, for instance

You people get out of my Barbara Gamage thread!
*Throws a live cat at you*

Will Johnson

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 16 jul 2005 20:02:48

I have evidence to prove that Count Niccolo Orsini had a wife named
Giovanna in 1363. That's it.

Where is your evidence? Or, do you just have an opinion?

DR

CED wrote:
Mr. Richardson:

So you agree! You have no evidence, only opinion.

CED

CED

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av CED » 17 jul 2005 02:41:03

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Hmmmmmm...


DSH:

I understand from others in the group that you have a severe mental
disorder. It is such that, as you get close to the edge, your postings
lose all their rational content and would, if they were not in English,
be utter gibberlish.

At the urgings of others, who know you better than I, to take pity, I
have chosen to ignore even the most ridiculous and malicious of your
postings.

Even now as you approach the edge (if the following posting is actually
yours and therefore evidence of your condtion), I am amazed that your
English is better than that of Mr. Richardson for whom you clack (or is
it quack, or maybe swallow frogs, or possibly lust?).

Is the language the product of your training or just that of an idiot
savant?

CED

Yes, Stewart definitely bobs and weaves -- he also bucks and weaves [a
form of tap dance].

Further, Stewart has the thoroughly buggered idea that all he has to do
is shout and everyone will stand silent and intimidated -- while he
rants on.

Hilarious!

He's Brain-Damaged -- and it's getting worse.

Stewart also keeps harping, bluffing and puffing on the Kelley matter.

Douglas Richardson has fully explained what happened there and has been
exonerated of blame -- but Stewart is solely in transmit mode -- unable
to read the incoming posts and interpret them.

He is damned funny though, I'll give him that.

He should quit his day job and do stand-up comedy in Australia and New
Zealand.

As it is, he's wasting his time mucking about with Genealogy.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 17 jul 2005 03:24:44

I'm not sure that Hines is yet on the edge of his psychological precipice,
though it's only a matter of time I suppose - note that for all his bluster
he doesn't offer any support to Richardson on the issue at hand about
Giovanna/Gorizia. Hines is even more dishonest and cowardly than he is
stupid, while Richardson's manifold failings are all in perfect equilibrium.

The organ-grinder ran out of lies, and up stepped the monkey to gibber &
caper in front of the audience trying to divert attention.

It never works. They will go on doing it as long as enough people sit back
watching in contempt but disdaining to speak up.

Peter Stewart



"CED" <leesmyth@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1121564463.298792.277970@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Hmmmmmm...


DSH:

I understand from others in the group that you have a severe mental
disorder. It is such that, as you get close to the edge, your postings
lose all their rational content and would, if they were not in English,
be utter gibberlish.

At the urgings of others, who know you better than I, to take pity, I
have chosen to ignore even the most ridiculous and malicious of your
postings.

Even now as you approach the edge (if the following posting is actually
yours and therefore evidence of your condtion), I am amazed that your
English is better than that of Mr. Richardson for whom you clack (or is
it quack, or maybe swallow frogs, or possibly lust?).

Is the language the product of your training or just that of an idiot
savant?

CED

Yes, Stewart definitely bobs and weaves -- he also bucks and weaves [a
form of tap dance].

Further, Stewart has the thoroughly buggered idea that all he has to do
is shout and everyone will stand silent and intimidated -- while he
rants on.

Hilarious!

He's Brain-Damaged -- and it's getting worse.

Stewart also keeps harping, bluffing and puffing on the Kelley matter.

Douglas Richardson has fully explained what happened there and has been
exonerated of blame -- but Stewart is solely in transmit mode -- unable
to read the incoming posts and interpret them.

He is damned funny though, I'll give him that.

He should quit his day job and do stand-up comedy in Australia and New
Zealand.

As it is, he's wasting his time mucking about with Genealogy.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Ann Sharp

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy

Legg inn av Ann Sharp » 17 jul 2005 05:36:34

James
. . . why do the Old Testament genealogies
all focus on patrlineal (father- son) descents ....

Ann:
Book of Genesis ... Abraham, "First Patriarch" [which tends to suggest
that Abraham came from a non-patriarchal society, otherwise why is he titled
the "First Patriarch"?].

Point I actually wish to make, though, is that Jewishness is inherited
by the descendants of Sarah only, not by other descendants of Abraham.

L.P.H.,

Ann

Gjest

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 jul 2005 17:52:01

In a message dated 7/16/2005 9:44:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
axsc@sbcglobal.net writes:


Book of Genesis ... Abraham, "First Patriarch" [which tends to suggest
that Abraham came from a non-patriarchal society, otherwise why is he titled
the "First Patriarch"?].

Point I actually wish to make, though, is that Jewishness is inherited
by the descendants of Sarah only, not by other descendants of Abraham.

A rule is not made by a single exception.
You prove the obverse of your point by this kind of reasoning.
Anyone who has actually read the Bible is well-aware that almost to
exclusion, male-lines are presented.
Someone apparently has an axe to grind here. But this kind of
mis-information does not impress the vigilant. Try harder.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 jul 2005 17:55:01

In a message dated 7/17/2005 5:47:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Jwc1870@aol.com writes:


They were of the City of Ur and Haran died before their father,
Nahor marrying his brother`s daughter Milcah. Abram married Sarai whose
parentage is not stated in the Bible.

Actually that is not correct. It is, in fact stated, that Sarah is Abraham's
half-sister.
I find that odd, but hey.
Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av John Brandon » 17 jul 2005 19:42:22

If Richardson has explained this, post his explanation - I'm sure I didn't see it. He claimed that the editorial statement made by Sheppard was untrue all along, but we only have his unsupported word for this. It doesn't begin
to explain why Richardnson left it on the record uncorrected for so

long. The latter fact undermines the former assertion.

Doug evidently didn't care much for Mr. Sheppard and couldn't be
bothered about correcting his errors. It's actually rather refreshing
to see someone react with indifference (more or less) to those they
dislike. On the other hand, your inevitable, automatic responses to DR
undermine your assertions of extreme dislike for him.

But since you're ill and housebound, I guess it provides an outlet.

Gjest

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 jul 2005 23:16:01

I see there is a new book out.

Domestic Politics and Family Absence: the Correspondence (1588-1621) of
Robert
Sidney, First Earl of Leicester and Barbara Gamage Sidney (2005). ...

Is there a way I could determine whether a library near me (Santa Cruz,
California) might have this book and which library?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Leo

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Leo » 17 jul 2005 23:27:01

Dear Wil,

Dumb question on my behalf. If you ring your nearest library and ask them,
surely they could tell? There is an Australian website for the library
system (I lost the URL) in there you could see which library has a
particular book. Surely something like that exists for the USA?

The book sounds interesting, how did you hear about this title? Where would
it have been published?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of John


I see there is a new book out.

Domestic Politics and Family Absence: the Correspondence (1588-1621) of
Robert
Sidney, First Earl of Leicester and Barbara Gamage Sidney (2005). ...

Is there a way I could determine whether a library near me (Santa Cruz,
California) might have this book and which library?
Thanks
Will Johnson




Bevan Shortridge

RE: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Bevan Shortridge » 17 jul 2005 23:37:02

Hi Will,

I would suggest Libdex:

http://www.libdex.com/

Enter appropriate keyword (e.g. Santa Cruz) to find libraries near you,
then search their catalogues (if online).

Bevan


-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:15 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of John


I see there is a new book out.

Domestic Politics and Family Absence: the Correspondence (1588-1621) of
Robert
Sidney, First Earl of Leicester and Barbara Gamage Sidney (2005). ...

Is there a way I could determine whether a library near me (Santa Cruz,
California) might have this book and which library?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 00:02:54

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121625741.973917.92380@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
If Richardson has explained this, post his explanation - I'm sure I
didn't see it. He claimed that the editorial statement made by Sheppard
was untrue all along, but we only have his unsupported word for this. It
doesn't begin
to explain why Richardnson left it on the record uncorrected for so
long. The latter fact undermines the former assertion.

Doug evidently didn't care much for Mr. Sheppard and couldn't be
bothered about correcting his errors. It's actually rather refreshing
to see someone react with indifference (more or less) to those they
dislike.

This is rubbish - however much Richardson may have disliked Sheppard, a
scholar is bound to care for the truth & nothing can excuse leaving a
falsehood on the record. IF the claim about Richardson's concurrence with
Kelley was false, Richardson owed it to himself and to readers of the book
to correct it. What he thought of anyone else is immaterial.

The possible ulterior motives in leaving the statement uncorrected are not
far or hard to seek. An honourable motive has not yet been suggested. NOT
ONE. You are free to try, of course, but the above is another dismal
failure.

On the other hand, your inevitable, automatic responses to DR
undermine your assertions of extreme dislike for him.

You are posting from mistaken impressions, yet again.

I don't "dislike" Richardson - I have never met him. I know nothing of him
personally beyond whatever he exposes of himself in the newsgroup. I wish to
know less. I despise his work and postings to SGM, and the characteristics
betrayed in these.

As to your weird impression that I respond to every last post from him, try
sorting the messages on the Usenet group in your browser, and you will see
that I don't respond to the majority of Richardson's posts. I don't even
read a lot of them - his work does not interest me: truth and the facts do.

Peter Stewart

Dolly Ziegler

Book search: OCLC FirstSearch & WorldCat

Legg inn av Dolly Ziegler » 18 jul 2005 00:04:01

If you ring your nearest library and ask them, surely they could tell?
There is an Australian website for the library system in there you could
see which library has a particular book. Surely something like that
exists for the USA?

Yep, OCLC's FirstSearch includes the WorldCat database of hundreds of
libraries worldwide. Call your local public library and ask for a
FirstSearch. Some libraries might do a search online, I dunno.

Cheers, Dolly in Maryland USA

Gjest

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 00:23:01

Here is a link to where this new book is mentioned and some others on the
same subject material
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/pages/brennan.htm
School of English, University of Leeds | staff pages
Dr Michael Brennan
Reader in Renaissance Studies

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 00:27:01

In a message dated 7/17/2005 2:35:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
b.shortridge@auckland.ac.nz writes:


http://www.libdex.com/

Enter appropriate keyword (e.g. Santa Cruz) to find libraries near you,
then search their catalogues (if online).

Bevan

Unfortunately the way this search works, you have to first identify a
particular library and then you can only search their catalog.

What I really want is something like "search all libraries".
There are a few dozen libraries within driving distance, it's pretty tedious
to search them one-by-one.

Thanks for the information.
Will Johnson

John Higgins

Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of J

Legg inn av John Higgins » 18 jul 2005 01:44:01

The Worldcat/First Search system mentioned is available online to
cardholders of the San Francisco Public Library. It indicates that the
title you mention is available at Stanford and UC Santa Cruz (and other
non-CA locations).

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Barbara Gamage was C.P.Addition: Joan Peverel, wife of John


I see there is a new book out.

Domestic Politics and Family Absence: the Correspondence (1588-1621) of
Robert
Sidney, First Earl of Leicester and Barbara Gamage Sidney (2005). ...

Is there a way I could determine whether a library near me (Santa Cruz,
California) might have this book and which library?
Thanks
Will Johnson



Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 18 jul 2005 03:04:05

We see once again that Peter Stewart has no evidence.

No evidence = opinion.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Peter Stewart wrote:
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121530238.965251.244330@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Newsgroup ~

Peter Stewart is bobbing and weaving again - what a hoot!

Peter Stewart has never once bobbed or weaved: I stand exactly where I
started, maintaining exactly what I said in the first place.

I claimed that Count Niccolo Orsini's wife was named Giovanna in 1363.
And I produced a document to prove it. Within twenty four hours, no
less.

No-one has questioned that Orsini's wife in 1363 was Giovanna Sabrano. The
proof you found cited in another secondary work that you have failed to
disclose - since we know that you still can't even identify the information
in Urban V's document relating specifically to this question - DOES NOT
BEGIN TO PROVE THE WOMAN WAS NOT ALSO KNOWN AS GORIZIA.

Peter Stewart claimed that Giovanna is the same person as Count
Niccolo's alleged wife, Gorizia. I asked him to produced his evidence.
He says he has none and that he's not going to provide any. Well, I
say if you have no evidence, then withdraw your allegation then. Shut
up or put up, Peter.

The claim I made is that Gorizia is another name for the Sabrano wife of
Niccolo otherwise called Giovanna. The latter name is established from
medieval records, the former only from the 19th-century work of Litta as far
as I know. The evidence for that statement CAN ONLY BE FOUND IN LITTA, and
this cannot change unless the name should be traced back beyond him. I have
never represented that I have done this - on the contrary I have said as
plainly as can be that I have not.

I don't believe that any document is now likely to come to notice
elucidating Litta's conclusion, that Niccolo Orsini's Sabrano wife and
mother of his daughter Sueva was somewhere called Gorizia rather than - or
in addition to - Giovanna.

Richardson refuses to see this inexorable logic or to undermine it with his
posturings. He insults the intelligence of his readers by trying to do this.

He also demeans even his own already low level of craftiness by trying to
make out that I have committed some kind of error that he can't specify.

Bringing in Kelley is a typical ploy: in this case, Richardson wants to
associate me with the statements of Litta just because I answered a question
pointing out that he is the first known source of a variant name for a
particular person. At the same time he wants to blame me for following a
published statement associating him in full with Kelley's nonsensical
conclusions on another matter, a claim that over years he chose not to deny.

It's hard to describe this as a flagrant double standard, since it lacks any
standards at all and is indeed mere stupidity unhinged.

Richardson fails to remember that influential members of the genealogical
community in which he wants to be honoured can read SGM, and certainly
others hear about his shennanigans here.

His Hinesian rubbish about "bobbing and weaving" or "running for the tall
grass" only goes to show that silence in the face of his crude
misrepresentations will not achieve anything. For the good of genealogy as a
study, some more people ought to speak up against his abuse of this
newsgroup, his self-interested traching of logic, his disregards for truth
and his flouting of all professional standards.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 03:14:38

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121652244.903444.264780@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
We see once again that Peter Stewart has no evidence.

Since Richardson is notoriously blinded by egomania and contrariness, no-one
should be too perturbed that he STILL can't admit seeing what everyone else
knows he must have understood long ago.

No matter how long he goes on making a fool of himself, I will go on
pointing this out - but I will not do his work for him.

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 18 jul 2005 03:22:51

Peter Stewart wrote:
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121652244.903444.264780@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
No matter how long he goes on making a fool of himself, I will go on
pointing this out - but I will not do his work for him.

Peter Stewart

When Peter has some evidence, then we can talk. Until then, Peter is
wasting everyone's time.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 03:29:19

When editing posts, it is customary to indicate the snips taken out.

Richardson can't even observe the usual courtesies with other people's
words, so it's no surprise that he is willing for us all to see how
resolutely he fails to take in their meaning.

There is no conceivable percentage in this for Richardson, yet he is fool
enough to persist.

It's past time for some others to tell him this, apart from CED and myself.
He won't listen to sense, but perhaps he will be shaken by consensus.

Peter Stewart



<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121653371.020916.216030@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:
royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121652244.903444.264780@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
No matter how long he goes on making a fool of himself, I will go on
pointing this out - but I will not do his work for him.

Peter Stewart

When Peter has some evidence, then we can talk. Until then, Peter is
wasting everyone's time.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 04:38:06

Is this really the best you can do, Hines?

Even you can surely see how feeble a riposte this is, reduced to babbling,
vaporous assertions, infantile language, and a quite inapposite Bible
reference for bad measure.

Well, if you can't keep quite you will have to keep on being humiliated by
the damp squibs you come up with. You can have no-one else to blame.

Peter Stewart.


"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FnFCe.144$ds5.1149@eagle.america.net...
Hmmmmmmm...

Peter Stewart is very fond of the word _nous_ -- even though he doesn't
have any -- because his brain is damaged.

No doubt that is why Peter is so fond of the word _nous_.

He seems to think if he just keeps typing and posting the word _nous_,
like a mantra -- he might actually acquire some _nous_ of his own.

Fat Chance.

John 5:14

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 18 jul 2005 05:26:39

Hmmmmmmm...

Peter Stewart is very fond of the word _nous_ -- even though he doesn't
have any -- because his brain is damaged.

No doubt that is why Peter is so fond of the word _nous_.

He seems to think if he just keeps typing and posting the word _nous_,
like a mantra -- he might actually acquire some _nous_ of his own.

Fat Chance.

John 5:14

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 18 jul 2005 05:31:36

| It's past time for some others to tell him this, apart from CED and
| myself. He won't listen to sense, but perhaps he will be shaken
| by consensus.
|
| Peter Stewart

-------Cordon Sanitaire--------------

Hmmmmmmm.

Pitiful...

And:

Desperate...

But...

Hilarious!

Peter has missed his true calling.

Stand-up comedy is his forte.

Sad....

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 05:44:43

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zsFCe.145$ds5.852@eagle.america.net...
| It's past time for some others to tell him this, apart from CED and
| myself. He won't listen to sense, but perhaps he will be shaken
| by consensus.
|
| Peter Stewart

-------Cordon Sanitaire--------------

Hmmmmmmm.

Pitiful...

And:

Desperate...

But...

Hilarious!

Peter has missed his true calling.

Stand-up comedy is his forte.

Sad....

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Ah, here we see the level of intelligence that Hines can call his own - some
while ago it was pointed out to him that using the conjunction "et"
successively is a solecism, not literate Latin usage.

But still he does it.

Next time any question arises about correcting someone's database, we will
surely not hear from Hines who can't correct a single word in his oafish
pose as a Latinist. He perhaps picked this up, along with his novelty
spelling pedantries and general knowledge, from a crossword puzzle in his
local "Honoluelue" newspaper.

Whether or not I am a comedian, at least there is some variety to my posts.
Hines has a repertoire of three, maybe four, that he can't help trotting out
no matter how weary we all are with his limited, cloddish humour.

And still he has not tried to answer the direct & salient challenge in my
previous post, asking for the simplest and most readily available proof - if
this exists - of his allegation about bobbing and weaving. That's another
specimen of the failed Hines technique, as pinned for inspection before now,
showing roughly the brain-power of a mosquito that keeps on buzzing for
blood as it hungrily infests a lifeless puddle.

He won't venture to support Richardson on any specific point, but merely
provides a vague background hum like a daft insect..

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 06:05:13

Peter

I have one simple question. What were Litta's sources. If Litta used no
sources than his research is flawed. Can you name his sources or not?

Mike Welch

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 06:14:03

<mwelch8442@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121663113.711794.195190@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter

I have one simple question. What were Litta's sources. If Litta used no
sources than his research is flawed. Can you name his sources or not?

If you have been reading this thread you have already seen the answer to
this question, repeatedly.

Of course Litta used sources - but in this instance we don't know what, or
how old, or how reliable his information might have been. As I said before,
he could have misinterpreted something. It doesn't make any difference to
resolving issue, since we can't trace it back beyond him. The simple fact is
that the woman he called Gorizia was from all we know and in all respects
apart from the name he used THE SAME PERSON as Giovanna.

The ENTIRE discussion is only going on to this point because Richardson
petulantly hopes to get his work of checking Litta done for him, and some
Italian and Latin texts translated, at the cost of exposing his juvenile
obstinacy to newsgroup members whom he clearly does not respect.

Why you should still cling on to a misguided respect for him in the face of
these constant turmoils of stupidity is a mystery.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 06:21:41

Peter

Than Litta is worthless in this. If nobody can check his sources than
his work is flawed. He is no better than the modern online database.
Which also give no sources.

Mike Welch

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [NB: contains ge

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 18 jul 2005 06:33:44

The genealogical question now on the table is about Jeanne de Sabran,
apparently the only known wife of Niccolo Orsini, count of Nola. They
are relatively proximal ancestors of Jacquette de Luxembourg, and thus
of a considerable number of Anglo-American descendants--including,
apparently, my children.

Q: Was Jeanne de Sabran also known as 'Gorizia', or did Niccolo Orsini
have another wife by that name?

The name 'Gorizia' is explicitly associated with Jeanne de Sabran in her
entry, no. 1575, in Neil D. Thompson & Charles M. Hansen's "A Medieval
Heritage: the Ancestry of Charles II, King of England," _The
Genealogist_ 17 (2003), p. 251.

The entry in Thompson & Hansen was posted by Tony Hoskins here on 12
July [from Gen-Medieval-L post <s2d3efe9.023@CENTRAL_SVR2>]:

"1574. Niccolo Orsini, called "des Ursins," Count of Nola, [born] 27
August 1331, [died] Nola (after 14 February) 1399, ... [married] to

1575. Jeanne de Sabran, called "Gorizia," her testament dated 1357
[note 250].

One can make two observations on these brief passages: First, it appears
that Thompson & Hansen believe Jeanne de Sabran is the same as
'Gorizia'. Second, the wording is ambiguous, but perhaps a 1357
testament for this woman uses the name 'Gorizia'. But this is not
entirely clear: the entry does NOT say "called 'Gorizia' IN her
testament dated 1357."

Now, some days previously Douglas Richardson had posted a document
showing the count's wife as 'Johanna' [= Jeanne, Joan, Giovanna] in
1363. His reaction to Tony's post of the twelfth was to associate the
'Gorizia' mentioned by Thompson & Hansen with the 1357 testament (when
this is not entirely clear from the passage). Richardson also appears
to have thought the 1357 testament suggested that she had died about
that time. Earlier, in citing the on-line pedigree-index to Thompson &
Hansen, on the 'Foundation for Medieval Genealogy' website, Richardson
had misread the notation "d. a1357" to stand for "died about 1357" when
in fact it means "died after 1357."

Douglas Richardson wrote on 7 July [from article
<1120764055.636132.181440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>]:

... the Graphical Index to the Ancestry of
Charles II found on helpful Foundations for Medieval Genealogy website
(http://fmg.ac/Projects/CharlesII/9-12/24/393.htm) states that Jeanne
de Sabran died about 1357. This is also incorrect.

But the entry on the page Richardson cites reads simply "Jeanne de
Sabran ( -a1357)," and it is clear from the context that 'a' in the
date stands for 'after', not 'about': elsewhere on the same page 'c' is
used for 'circa'. Whether or not he was influenced by this mistaken
reading of the webpage (which one might call a quaternary source),
Douglas Richardson told Tony that he did not believe that 'Gorizia'
cited in 1357 could be the same as 'Jeanne' from 1363.

Richardson wrote on July 12 [from article
<1121237685.369854.42920@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>]:

If Niccolo Orsini's wife was named Giovanna (or Joan) in 1363,
... why do you believe she is the same wife as Gorizia who
allegedly left a testament dated 1357?

Wouldn't there be two wives, one named Gorizia and one named Giovanna
de Sabran? What is your evidence that Count Niccolo had a wife
named Gorizia?

In fact when Tony posted the entry he had not been concerned about
'Gorizia' and expressed no opinion or belief about her: Tony had been
interested in the other alleged wife, Marie des Baux, who Thompson &
Hansen dispensed with in a footnote, also quoted by Tony. As posted by
Tony (in the same message cited above):

Note 250: Casanovas, _Henri IV 83, evidently following Litta,
incorrectly gives Niccolo Orsini a second wife, Marie des Baux [Balzo],
only child and heiress of Raymond des Baux, Count of Soleto, d.s.p. 5
Aug. 1375 (_ES_ [new ed.] 3:4:752), and by letters dated 18 Oct. 1375,
Queen Joanna of Naples granted John d'Arcussia di Capra, Count of
Minervino, the castle and bourgs which had reverted to the crown by the
death of Raymond, Count of Soleto, without legitimate issue, "to the
exclusion of Nicholas Orsini, Count Palatine and of Nola, his nephew,
who had himself acknowledged that he has no rights in the feudal goods
of his uncle' (Watson, "Seize Quartiers' [supra note 203], 12:248, n.
15)."

Now, this footnote explicitly deals with Marie des Baux. But Tony did
NOT post the source-paragraph corresponding to the data in entries
1574-1575, where one would expect to find the source of 'Gorizia' and
mention of the 1357 testament. Here are the sources listed for this
couple, on the same page of Thompson & Hansen's article, [_TG_ 17
(2003), 251] [adapted into a list for this post]:

1. Litta 8 (62): xi. [sic: though fascicle 62, on the Orsini, is in
vol. 7, not vol. 8.]

2. Fedele Savio, "Le tre famiglie Orsini di Monterotondo...," Bollettino
della Societa umbria di storia patria 2 (1896): 89-112, at 99-106.

3. la Chesnaye-Desbois, _Dictionnaire de la noblesse_, 3d ed., 19 vols.
(Paris, 1863-76), 18:13-14.

4. Turton, 224-5.

5. Emile Leonard, _Les Angevins de Naples (Paris, 1954), 421, 454, 464.

6. Joannis 460, 524 [? = J-D Joannis, _Les seize quartiers genealogiques
des Capetiens, 4 vols. (Lyon, 1958-65)].

7. Alessandro Cutolo, _Re Ladislao d'angio Durazzo (Naples, 1969), 46,
57, 75, 129n23, 132n44, 143n52, 179n85.

8. Casanovas, _Henri IV_, 83. [=Francis M. Casanovas, _Les ancetres
d'Henri IV: 512 quartiers_ (Paris, 1991)]

Now: perhaps one or more of these eight sources (all the others of which
postdate the Orsini fascicle in Litta) mention this 1357 testament
and/or a document of that or other date which uses 'Gorizia' to name a
wife of Niccolo Orsini.

Turton (no. 4), the only one of these sources in my study, does neither.

For what it's worth, Turton assigns Jeanne de Sabran an approximate
death date of "c. 1379," not used by Thompson & Hansen. Can Turton's
date be traced to a document?

So: rather than continuing a long volley of rancor, is anyone interested
in the problem, and has access to any of these sources other than Turton?

By the way, 'Gorizia' is an old medieval town in the extreme northeast
of modern Italy, on the Slovene border between Trieste and Friuli. It
is nowhere near Sabran (Provence). I have no knowledge of it as a given
name, medieval or modern.

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [NB: contains ge

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 06:56:12

Nat

Thank You for posting Neil Thompson sources. Perhaps Neil Thompson aka
gryphon801 can answer these question about his work. Since he post's on
this newsgroup.

Mike Welch

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 06:58:56

<mwelch8442@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121664101.306132.99470@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Peter

Than Litta is worthless in this. If nobody can check his sources than
his work is flawed. He is no better than the modern online database.
Which also give no sources.

Yes, quite so - except that apart from Litta there is known reason to worry
about a "Gorizia" in the first place. If the name (or person) is to be
discussed at all, this can only be done with reference to Litta.

It should be added that his work was excellent for his time and inspires
some general trust in his capacities to locate and interpret evidence. That
can't be said for Richardson.

Peter Stewart

R. Battle

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av R. Battle » 18 jul 2005 07:02:24

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Peter Stewart wrote:

<snip>
It's past time for some others to tell him this, apart from CED and
myself. He won't listen to sense, but perhaps he will be shaken by
consensus.
snip


I think that at least some have given up on the thread as a lost cause. I
haven't, but starting in high school (where I despised those students who
would repeat what a previous student said in order to obtain some sort of
participation points) I have never seen the point of adding my two cents
when they are the same two cents that have already been anted up by
someone else. And, to be perfectly honest, I've lost track of exactly
what Doug's position currently is with regard to the wife/wives in
question and what he is asking for documentation about.

The following is my *impression* of the debate as it stands; if it is
incorrect on any points I would appreciate enlightenment:

Douglas Richardson's position: there was a wife Giovanna and possibly a
wife Gorizia; if the latter existed she could not have been identical with
Giovanna because of the date of a "testament" of Gorizia (and the
non-equivalence of the two names).

Peter Stewart's position: the first known source that gives a wife the
name Gorizia is Litta; this is the name that Litta gives to the lady
others call Giovanna. This interpretation of Litta was shared by GBR and
G. W. Watson.

Is that the way the argument stands?

If so, then there is no evidence that *can* be brought to bear to prove
P.S.'s point that Litta is the first to use the name Gorizia, except the
argument from silence (he hasn't found anything earlier, nor apparently
has anyone else that has been reading this thread). With regard to the
details of the life of the person that Litta calls "Gorizia" and whether
or not they match the life of the known "Giovanna," that is easy enough to
check for someone with access to Litta (and it is at the FHL); and in the
meantime the explicit or tacit affirmation of that from those who have
read Litta (PS, GBR, and Watson) suffices for me.

-Robert Battle

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [NB: contains ge

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 07:09:57

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-68B11F.01372718072005@news1.east.earthlink.net...

<snip>

So: rather than continuing a long volley of rancor, is anyone interested
in the problem, and has access to any of these sources other than Turton?

Thank you, Nat - with luck this could break the circuit.

By the way, 'Gorizia' is an old medieval town in the extreme northeast
of modern Italy, on the Slovene border between Trieste and Friuli. It
is nowhere near Sabran (Provence). I have no knowledge of it as a given
name, medieval or modern.

As to modern usage, a correspondent off-list has sent me the following
links:

http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... &id=I05200
http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... I552705065
http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... I518410697
http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... 52&id=I106

adding that a search for "Gorizia" on the Social Security Death Index at

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/ ... _form=true

comes up with 18 examples.

As to the place, it's conceivable that Jeanne de Sabran had married a lord
from (or indeed in) Gorizia before she married Niccolo Orsini, or had some
other connection ther that can't now be found - but this is going a step
past Litta by assuming that he had perhaps misunderstood a reference,
something that he certainly did not do frequently.

Peter Stewart

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [NB: contains ge

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 18 jul 2005 07:17:19

In article <VIHCe.51652$oJ.45848@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-68B11F.01372718072005@news1.east.earthlink.net...

As to the place, it's conceivable that Jeanne de Sabran had married a lord
from (or indeed in) Gorizia before she married Niccolo Orsini, or had some
other connection ther that can't now be found - but this is going a step
past Litta by assuming that he had perhaps misunderstood a reference,
something that he certainly did not do frequently.

Peter, thank you. I read Robert Battle's last post after making mine.
Do you in fact have Litta (fasc. 62) to hand, then? To clarify, is it
indeed Litta, and not some later source, who calls Niccolo's wife
'Gorizia'? And does Litta mention a 1357 testament, or is this only in
one or more of the later sources?

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 07:23:19

"R. Battle" <battle@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.61b.0507172216120.73756@dante73.u.washington.edu...

<snip>

The following is my *impression* of the debate as it stands; if it is
incorrect on any points I would appreciate enlightenment:

Douglas Richardson's position: there was a wife Giovanna and possibly a
wife Gorizia; if the latter existed she could not have been identical with
Giovanna because of the date of a "testament" of Gorizia (and the
non-equivalence of the two names).

Peter Stewart's position: the first known source that gives a wife the
name Gorizia is Litta; this is the name that Litta gives to the lady
others call Giovanna. This interpretation of Litta was shared by GBR and
G. W. Watson.

Is that the way the argument stands?

Yes - and thank you, Robert. It could not be put more clearly.

The problem arose because Richardson insists on claiming that if I restate
the opinion of Litta I must also give him the unknown evidence behind this,
even though he has been told it can't be recovered and may not even have
existed, as implied, in the first place.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 07:34:06

Peter

Thank You for your anwer on Litta. We know Litta made error's but hey
were humans and not perfect. So it's stll possible there was two wives.
We will have to take Litta for what it's worth. Just a stepping stone.

Mike Welch

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [NB: contains ge

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 07:34:22

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-563CEF.02210318072005@news1.east.earthlink.net...
In article <VIHCe.51652$oJ.45848@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-68B11F.01372718072005@news1.east.earthlink.net...

As to the place, it's conceivable that Jeanne de Sabran had married a
lord
from (or indeed in) Gorizia before she married Niccolo Orsini, or had
some
other connection ther that can't now be found - but this is going a step
past Litta by assuming that he had perhaps misunderstood a reference,
something that he certainly did not do frequently.

Peter, thank you. I read Robert Battle's last post after making mine.
Do you in fact have Litta (fasc. 62) to hand, then? To clarify, is it
indeed Litta, and not some later source, who calls Niccolo's wife
'Gorizia'? And does Litta mention a 1357 testament, or is this only in
one or more of the later sources?

Sorry, Nat, I have at hand only my notes on this, made years ago - Litta is
not on my shelves and I don't have a photocopy of the Orsini table. Chico
Doria has a set, but I don't think he is reading SGM posts lately.

The name "Gorizia" is definitely given by Litta, and I have not found an
earlier authority for the name or a later one explaining it.

Let me add that one person who could perhaps clarify this off the top of his
head is Lindsay Brook: I learned today that he is recovering well from a
serious accident and hopes to leave hospital soon. I'm sure the newsgroup
will also be pleased to know this.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 07:43:09

<mwelch8442@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121668446.754114.250190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Peter

Thank You for your anwer on Litta. We know Litta made error's but hey
were humans and not perfect. So it's stll possible there was two wives.
We will have to take Litta for what it's worth. Just a stepping stone.

It's not possible that there were two wives from the same family, both the
mother of Sueva.

I don't know how many more times it will have to be stated that Gorizia is
just another name for the woman usually called Giovanna. All that is likely
to be established from Litta's source, if this came to light and proved to
be valid in the first place, would be that Gorizia might have been the
preferred name of the woman baptised - or possibly even miscalled -
Giovanna. However, we know that Pope Urban V called her by the latter name,
evidently in response to an application sent to Avignon by or on behalf of
her husband and naming her, so this is not highly probable to say the least.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 07:57:03

In a message dated 7/17/2005 10:31:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mwelch8442@yahoo.com writes:


Peter

Than Litta is worthless in this. If nobody can check his sources than
his work is flawed. He is no better than the modern online database.
Which also give no sources.

Mike Welch

You have a full stop at "database." So you are implying that all online
databases, give no sources. That isn't true.

The other more important untruth is that Litta is worthless.
It was common in the past to write genealogical books without citing your
sources. In fact I was reading a biography of Blavatsky and she cited several
sources, the modern author stating that this was "uncommon to unheard of" and
this was only a little over a hundred years ago.

To state that all genealogical books of the past are worthless is the extreme
edge of reasoning. I doubt you'll find many adherents of that extreme
position in this group or among professional genealogists or historians.

Peter is taking a middle position, that we cannot simply discard Litta and
others, but we have to merely say, we don't know what sources they used if any.

That to me seems perfectly reasonable.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 13:35:16

""Peter G R Howarth"" <pgrhowarth@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:200507181139.j6IBdSbm027194@mail.rootsweb.com...
Dear Mr Richardson ~

I have been reading all your good posts on this and associated topics with
interest. There was only one -- your first. All the rest have merely
misrepresented what Peter Stewart said.

Is your grasp of logic really so shaky that you genuinely misinterpreted
Peter's citation for the origin of the reference to Gorizia into meaning
that he must believe that there are two different women involved? If so,
how can we trust any of your other conclusions?

Or were you in fact trying to goad Peter into giving you full details of
the
reference? If you are really interested in the truth, why not go and look
Litta up yourself? Italian is a nice straightforward language that can be
picked up quite easily.

Or have you now given up on looking for the truth? Are you now only
interested in trying to score points off someone else? And when do you
think you will eventually win one of these arguments?

Best always, Peter G R Howarth

Well said, Peter - and, for once, "Best always" goes with a worthy message.

There must be many who think as you do but never say so. If more did speak
up, we would surely have less (or at least less prolonged) strife in the
newsgroup since clearly a volume of negative feedback is not the object of
SGM's pretentious pests.

Peter Stewart

Peter G R Howarth

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter G R Howarth » 18 jul 2005 13:40:02

Dear Mr Richardson ~

I have been reading all your good posts on this and associated topics with
interest. There was only one -- your first. All the rest have merely
misrepresented what Peter Stewart said.

Is your grasp of logic really so shaky that you genuinely misinterpreted
Peter's citation for the origin of the reference to Gorizia into meaning
that he must believe that there are two different women involved? If so,
how can we trust any of your other conclusions?

Or were you in fact trying to goad Peter into giving you full details of the
reference? If you are really interested in the truth, why not go and look
Litta up yourself? Italian is a nice straightforward language that can be
picked up quite easily.

Or have you now given up on looking for the truth? Are you now only
interested in trying to score points off someone else? And when do you
think you will eventually win one of these arguments?

Best always, Peter G R Howarth



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Douglas Richardson royala

The need to provide sources

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 18 jul 2005 16:30:40

Dear Mr. Howarth ~

This is what you said back in 2004 in a post about logic and evidence:

"I may be a tyro at genealogy, but I do have experience with logic and
evidence. Those that put forward a case (or theory) must include the
evidence on which it is based. If there is no evidence, then there is
no case. That is why Paul Bulkley has been expected to provide his
sources."

I agree with your statement: "If there is no evidence, there is no
case." But, Peter Stewart has provided no evidence. In fact, he
refuses to do so. If you expected Paul Bulkley to provide his sources,
why not Peter Stewart? Where's your logic in that?

It seems that it is your logic that is flawed, not mine, Mr. Howarth.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website; http://www.royalancestry.net


"Peter G R Howarth" wrote:
Dear Mr Richardson ~

I have been reading all your good posts on this and associated topics with
interest. There was only one -- your first. All the rest have merely
misrepresented what Peter Stewart said.

Is your grasp of logic really so shaky that you genuinely misinterpreted
Peter's citation for the origin of the reference to Gorizia into meaning
that he must believe that there are two different women involved? If so,
how can we trust any of your other conclusions?

Or were you in fact trying to goad Peter into giving you full details of the
reference? If you are really interested in the truth, why not go and look
Litta up yourself? Italian is a nice straightforward language that can be
picked up quite easily.

Or have you now given up on looking for the truth? Are you now only
interested in trying to score points off someone else? And when do you
think you will eventually win one of these arguments?

Best always, Peter G R Howarth



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Peter G R Howarth

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter G R Howarth » 18 jul 2005 19:13:01

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com [royalancestry@msn.com]wrote Mon
18/07/2005 16:31

Dear Mr. Howarth ~

This is what you said back in 2004 in a post about logic and
evidence:

"I may be a tyro at genealogy, but I do have experience with logic
and evidence. Those that put forward a case (or theory) must include
the evidence on which it is based. If there is no evidence, then
there is no case. That is why Paul Bulkley has been expected to
provide his sources."

I agree with your statement: "If there is no evidence, there is no
case." But, Peter Stewart has provided no evidence. In fact, he
refuses to do so. If you expected Paul Bulkley to provide his
sources, why not Peter Stewart? Where's your logic in that?

It seems that it is your logic that is flawed, not mine, Mr. Howarth.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website; http://www.royalancestry.net

Peter Stewart does not need to provide evidence beyond what he has already
done, because he is not putting forward a case. He merely gave the earliest
source he could find for the use of the name Gorizia for Niccolo Orsini's
wife. You are the one who has tried to misrepresent that as a 'case' of
some kind involving two separate people. I asked whether you had done that
through weakness of logic. If that is not the reason, why have you
persistently twisted what he said?

Peter G R Howarth

P.S. Perhaps I ought to feel flattered that you have bothered to look me up
in the archives. Why not look up Litta instead?



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Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 18 jul 2005 20:39:43

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Yep -- _claqueur_ IS an effete word and rather prissy -- from
"Franch" -- as the jumped-up Australian, Stewart, would say.

DSH

Prissy is right. I think we should ask Peter if he is a claqueur or a
claquee.

DR

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [contains some g

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 18 jul 2005 22:06:31

Thanks, James. Much appreciated. DR

Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Newsgroup,
As Nat indicates Turton did list sources and his
source for Orsini was P. Litta, a part of a series" Famiglio celebri italiane
"begun in 1819. his list of sources further states that a new series was begun
in 1899 . ( front of the book under Italian sources ) however Turton`s
source for Jeanne de Sabran died 1379 was apparently a different work published in
1897 and called " Historie Genealique Sabran- Ponteves " It is in the French
section of the sources list.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [contains some g

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 18 jul 2005 22:09:43

In article <1fd.5d6265d.300d7222@aol.com>, Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Newsgroup,
As Nat indicates Turton did list sources and his
source for Orsini was P. Litta, a part of a series" Famiglio celebri italiane
"begun in 1819. his list of sources further states that a new series was
begun
in 1899 . ( front of the book under Italian sources ) however Turton`s
source for Jeanne de Sabran died 1379 was apparently a different work
published in
1897 and called " Historie Genealique Sabran- Ponteves " It is in the French
section of the sources list.

James, thanks for pointing out the separate source citation for Sabran.
Turton's book doesn't show which source would have provided the
particular date of c. 1379 for Jeanne's death, but hopefully it would be
one of those two (Sabran-Ponteves or Litta).

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Douglas Richardson royala

Love is the key

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 18 jul 2005 22:59:41

To have peace, Leo, you must first be peaceful. Attacking good men
like Brandon and Hines is not the way to accomplish peace. Love is the
key, Leo, not strife.

Douglas Richardson

"Leo" wrote:
Dear CED

Brandon, Richardson and Hines are now weaving to find any excuse or reason
to justify their behaviour. If only Richardson would head for the tall grass
for a while and allow gen-med to recover from the damage he has inflicted.
Look at todays messages, the bar room brawler can be proud of his
achievement, which he does with total disregard for other people.

Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "CED" <leesmyth@cox.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:05 AM
Subject: Nationalism rears its ugly head Re: OT Time to stand back?




Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:

Mr. Richardson:

I am an American, an American for thirteen generations, and proud to be
an American. Your rudeness, lack of integrity, and other misconduct
give us a bad name.

What does nationality have to do with this thread? Most of our best
scholars in this field are not Americans.

CED

John Brandon wrote:
The problem is Peter Stewart, Leo van de Pas, and Tim Powys-Lybbe

Yep, the non-Americans. Most of the Americans realize (or are
beginning to realize, I think) that they owe you a debt of gratitude
for your good work on the new lines in _Plantagenet Ancestry_ and
_MCA_.

Thanks for the complement, John. I know you meant it sincerely. It's
good to hear someone say something nice for a change.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


Gjest

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [contains some g

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 23:00:02

Dear Newsgroup,
As Nat indicates Turton did list sources and his
source for Orsini was P. Litta, a part of a series" Famiglio celebri italiane
"begun in 1819. his list of sources further states that a new series was begun
in 1899 . ( front of the book under Italian sources ) however Turton`s
source for Jeanne de Sabran died 1379 was apparently a different work published in
1897 and called " Historie Genealique Sabran- Ponteves " It is in the French
section of the sources list.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

John Brandon

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av John Brandon » 18 jul 2005 23:44:06

The comments on Nat by Hines are, of course, beneath contempt.

And yet you draw attention to them.

P.S. Would your Rowling reviews happen to be available online? If
not, citations to paper copies will do.

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 jul 2005 23:54:50

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121726646.615525.46580@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The comments on Nat by Hines are, of course, beneath contempt.

And yet you draw attention to them.

Hardly - not even an average try by your abysmal standards.

P.S. Would your Rowling reviews happen to be available online?

I don't know.

If not, citations to paper copies will do.

Not a matter of medieval genealogy or legitimate interest to the newsgroup,
and once again I decline to start corresponding with you off-line.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [contains some g

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 jul 2005 23:58:01

Dear Nat,
As Turton listed Sabran- Ponteves as his source for Sabran
page 225 (his book) and given the hopefully now over challenge /
conterchallenges for evidence other than Signore Litta between Mr Richardson and Mr
Stewart concerning the perhaps nonexistant Gorizia. Which I suppose could have been
a pet nickname just as Bernabo Visconti referred to his wife Beatrice Della
Scala as Regina. it seems most probable that the Sabran- Ponteves book was his
source. I hope some legible copies still exist, whomever may have authored it.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [contains some g

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 jul 2005 00:00:03

Dear Douglas,
You`re welcome.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA

John Brandon

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av John Brandon » 19 jul 2005 00:03:24

I suppose it was 'insolent' of me to wish to inspect your 'real world'
publications. Hmm, maybe they don't exist ....? I wonder.

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 19 jul 2005 00:05:56

What does Harry Potter have to do with Sueva Orsini?

DR

Peter Stewart wrote:
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:UqVCe.193$ds5.677@eagle.america.net...
"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121718758.517849.318270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

| >>They resent DR's ROYALTIES -- as does Nat Taylor -- the Harvard
| >>mole, sans tenure.
|
| Yes, the profound _ressentiment_ that Nietzsche found at the root of
| many modern attitudes ...
-----------------------------------------

Indeed...

Particularly favored among Radical-Chic, Left-Wing, Gypsy Academics --
and among their hangers-on, cooks, bottlewashers, lovers and
"claqueurs".

J.K. Rowling and her _Harry Potter_ books must drive them absolutely
bug-eyed.

Hines proves yet again that he doesn't know what he is talking about, and
predictions based on his self-reflecting theory are bound to come unstuck.

In this case, for instance, I have read four Harry Potter novels in order to
review these quite favourably. The problem with them is that the author's
undoubted genius is far more in the conception than in the execution. But I
am happy for Rowling to amass a great fortune - she is not pretending to be
an expert or spreading errors (pace the Vatican).

As to that, I don't in the least resent Richardson's income or wealth. I
rather wish he would win a great lottery prize, and retire from genealogy.

The comments on Nat by Hines are, of course, beneath contempt.

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: OT Re: Love is the key

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 19 jul 2005 01:02:13

Remember, Leo, love is the key. To have peace, you must first be
peaceful. Finger pointing and attacking others doesn't achieve peace
on the newsgroup. It just stirs up more trouble for you.

Best wishes, DR

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Douglas,
You are such a hypocrite.

The cause of all the problems is that you and your "good men" have taken
their eyes of the ball (genealogy and facts pertaining to genealogy) and are
playing the men, and you three play dirty. From Hines we can expect nothing
else, but from the fox preaching _collegiality_ we should be able expect
better, much better.

If only you knew how peaceful I was, you would not have sent your
hypocritical message.
You the disturber of peace are preaching love? Now I could use some of
Hines's favourite words, lets suffice with HILARIOUS.


D. Spencer Hines

Re: Love Is The Key

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 19 jul 2005 01:31:53

Indeed...

Preceded by a hot toddy and a long, long, peaceful nap in Leo's case --
to get him in the mood.

DSH

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121723981.153038.265170@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

| To have peace, Leo, you must first be peaceful. Attacking good men
| like Brandon and Hines is not the way to accomplish peace. Love is
the
| key, Leo, not strife.
|
| Douglas Richardson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 19 jul 2005 01:40:58

My comments about Nat Taylor are right on the money and deucedly
relevant.

Here they are again:

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121718758.517849.318270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

| >>They resent DR's ROYALTIES -- as does Nat Taylor -- the Harvard
| >>mole, sans tenure.
|
| Yes, the profound _ressentiment_ that Nietzsche found at the root of
| many modern attitudes ...
-----------------------------------------

Indeed...

Particularly favored among Radical-Chic, Left-Wing, Gypsy Academics --
and among their hangers-on, cooks, bottlewashers, lovers and
"claqueurs".

J.K. Rowling and her _Harry Potter_ books must drive them absolutely
bug-eyed.

She has sold 6.9 million copies of her latest book, just in the first 24
hours of its release.

Her publisher is doing a print run of 13.5 million copies.

It's particularly amusing to watch Nat Taylor try to play magisterial
tutor to DR -- a Standard Harvardian Beloved-Pose.....

The Stern New England Tutor With The Ruler Poised -- Ready To Wrap
Knuckles.

Hilarious!

Stay Tuned....

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Leo van de Pas

OT Re: Love is the key

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 jul 2005 01:55:01

Dear Douglas,
You are such a hypocrite.

The cause of all the problems is that you and your "good men" have taken
their eyes of the ball (genealogy and facts pertaining to genealogy) and are
playing the men, and you three play dirty. From Hines we can expect nothing
else, but from the fox preaching _collegiality_ we should be able expect
better, much better.

If only you knew how peaceful I was, you would not have sent your
hypocritical message.
You the disturber of peace are preaching love? Now I could use some of
Hines's favourite words, lets suffice with HILARIOUS.


----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:59 AM
Subject: Love is the key


To have peace, Leo, you must first be peaceful. Attacking good men
like Brandon and Hines is not the way to accomplish peace. Love is the
key, Leo, not strife.

Douglas Richardson

"Leo" wrote:
Dear CED

Brandon, Richardson and Hines are now weaving to find any excuse or
reason
to justify their behaviour. If only Richardson would head for the tall
grass
for a while and allow gen-med to recover from the damage he has
inflicted.
Look at todays messages, the bar room brawler can be proud of his
achievement, which he does with total disregard for other people.

Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "CED" <leesmyth@cox.net
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:05 AM
Subject: Nationalism rears its ugly head Re: OT Time to stand back?




Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com wrote:

Mr. Richardson:

I am an American, an American for thirteen generations, and proud to be
an American. Your rudeness, lack of integrity, and other misconduct
give us a bad name.

What does nationality have to do with this thread? Most of our best
scholars in this field are not Americans.

CED

John Brandon wrote:
The problem is Peter Stewart, Leo van de Pas, and Tim Powys-Lybbe

Yep, the non-Americans. Most of the Americans realize (or are
beginning to realize, I think) that they owe you a debt of gratitude
for your good work on the new lines in _Plantagenet Ancestry_ and
_MCA_.

Thanks for the complement, John. I know you meant it sincerely.
It's
good to hear someone say something nice for a change.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net



Leo

Re: OT Re: Love is the key

Legg inn av Leo » 19 jul 2005 02:32:02

Douglas, quite soon you will find out why I am at peace. You need to learn
the difference between finger-pointing (your speciality) and a summing up of
a situation. The trouble is yours.


----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: OT Re: Love is the key


Remember, Leo, love is the key. To have peace, you must first be
peaceful. Finger pointing and attacking others doesn't achieve peace
on the newsgroup. It just stirs up more trouble for you.

Best wishes, DR

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Douglas,
You are such a hypocrite.

The cause of all the problems is that you and your "good men" have taken
their eyes of the ball (genealogy and facts pertaining to genealogy) and
are
playing the men, and you three play dirty. From Hines we can expect
nothing
else, but from the fox preaching _collegiality_ we should be able expect
better, much better.

If only you knew how peaceful I was, you would not have sent your
hypocritical message.
You the disturber of peace are preaching love? Now I could use some of
Hines's favourite words, lets suffice with HILARIOUS.




Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 jul 2005 03:14:19

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1121727956.205729.245550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
What does Harry Potter have to do with Sueva Orsini?

Hines will have to answer this - he introduced Harry Potter, to two
different threads so far.

So here's a question that Richardson can answer: why do you pose your
question in a response to my post?

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 19 jul 2005 03:21:21

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121727804.388980.255370@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I suppose it was 'insolent' of me to wish to inspect your 'real world'
publications. Hmm, maybe they don't exist ....? I wonder.

You have been advised time & again to stop wondering about me - your
obsession is unhealthy.

And by the way SGM is part of the "real" world - your fantasies betray a
complete lack of intelligent engagement with it, as always.

I gave you the gist of my review, and the newsgroup doesn't need to indulge
you in having this discussed further. If you want to read about Harry
Potter, try the books. Otherwise try any review - I am sure there are plenty
better than mine to keep you going until your next descent into fevered &
baseless speculations about me.

Peter Stewart

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Sueva Orsini's mother, Jeanne de Sabran [contains some g

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 19 jul 2005 03:47:32

In article <104.654a88fd.300d7fa0@aol.com>, Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Nat,
As Turton listed Sabran- Ponteves as his source for Sabran
page 225 (his book) and given the hopefully now over challenge /
conterchallenges for evidence other than Signore Litta between Mr Richardson
and Mr
Stewart concerning the perhaps nonexistant Gorizia. Which I suppose could
have been
a pet nickname just as Bernabo Visconti referred to his wife Beatrice Della
Scala as Regina. it seems most probable that the Sabran- Ponteves book was
his
source. I hope some legible copies still exist, whomever may have authored
it.

James,

As I put into another post, the Sabran work Turton cited is a reprinted
section (on the Sabran-Ponteves family) from a much bigger collection,
the manuscripts of d'Hozier's _Armorial general de France_, compiled in
the 18th century & published in (variously titled) chunks, with
improvements, in the 18th & 19th centuries. The Sabran-Ponteves account
is from the _Registres suppementaires_, likely vol. 7. The FHL has a
microfilm of the BN's copy of a separate printing of the Sabran-Ponteves
section, dated 1897, film nos. 0251158 or 1517498, which appears to be
what Turton used; the whole set, with that section in it, is available
more widely (e.g. at NEHGS in Boston, and various US university
libraries).

Nat Taylor

a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/leaves/

Gjest

Re: OT: You guys fought the ENTIRE time!

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 jul 2005 01:15:01

In a message dated 19/07/2005 21:31:49 GMT Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

Another 'mindless robot' sort who hasn't posted much lately, but who
feels compelled to pop up to say his miniscule fraction of a coin's
worth ...



And do you wonder why many people stop making posts?

Adrian

Robert Forrest

Help with Latin--1241 Cal. Close Rolls entry for John "le Je

Legg inn av Robert Forrest » 20 jul 2005 02:02:02

Would someone please give me the sense of what is going on in these three 1241 items in the Calendar of Close Rolls? Was Johannes
'le Jeu' in the Tower for not paying a debt? And was the king's treasurer sent to pay 30/9/0 to release him? Did the four men in
Item 3 put up the money? This John may have been the gr3- or gr4-grandfather of Elizabeth Jewe who m. (1) Sir John Hody, ancestors
of Henry Samson(Sampson), Mayflower passenger.

1. De denariis in Turri Lond' deponendis. Mandatum est Willelmo de Haverhull, thesaurario regis, quod xxx. libras et ix. solidos,
quos Johannes 'le Jeu' ei lib(er)abit in parte solucionis debitorum que Magister Simon de Steylaund' regi debet recipiat et eas in
Turrim Lond' deponi faciat. [c14 Nov]

2. De bladis Magistri Symonis de Steyland' vendendis...mittimus ad vos Johannem le Gyu paternitatem vestram iterato rogantes
quatinus blada et alia bona predicta per vos...[c13 Mar]

3. De denariis ponendis in Turri Lond.' Mandatum est thesaurario et camerariis quod pecuniam quam Radulfus de Gymell', Radulfus de
Arraz, Ricardus Aurfaber, et Adam le Jofne receperunt per manum Johannis le Gyw de bonis Symonis? Normanni venditis, et quam cis
liberabunt per preceptum regis, deponi faciant in Turri Lond'.

Et mandatum est predictis Radulfo, Radulfo, Ricardo, et Ade quod omnes denarios quos per manum Johannis le Gyw receperunt de bonis
predicti Symonis apud Farendon', deferant Lond'...12 Apr

Thanks for any help.

Bob Forrest

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sueva Orsini's Mother, Jeanne de Sabran

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 20 jul 2005 08:48:45

Hilarious!

Whenever Peter 'Pogue' Stewart gets REALLY flustered -- he just
fustigates and babbles incoherently.

Decidedly Kinky...And Looking For Discipline....

Pogue Stewart = Top Banana.

ALL The Other Australians I've Ever Met Seem Far More SUBSTANTIAL than
Pogue Stewart. I've never encountered such a LIGHTWEIGHT Australian
before. Light in the loafers too, no doubt.

As for myself, I don't have any of those sorts of secrets. I haven't
read ANY of the SIX Harry Potter books, don't intend to, and have only
seen one of the films -- which I did enjoy.

However, I do find the reviews interesting.

The one by Michiko Katutani in The New York Times is particularly good
and finely written.

Mediaeval....

Hmmmmmmm...

I'll bet it's FAR better than any Harry Potter review Pogue Stewart MAY
have written.

But of course he won't reveal his -- for comparison -- he just runs for
the tall grass.

Understandable....

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Chris Phillips

Re: Help with Latin--1241 Cal. Close Rolls entry for John "l

Legg inn av Chris Phillips » 20 jul 2005 09:43:46

Robert Forrest wrote:
Would someone please give me the sense of what is going on in these three
1241 items in the Calendar of Close Rolls?


I think the sense is that Master Simon de Steyland owed the king money and
that John 'le Jeu' was to deliver this sum to the king's treasurer in
partial settlement of the debt, and that the treasurer was ordered to
receive it and deliver the money to the Tower of London. The other entries
relate to the sale of Simon's goods, the payment at Farendon' by John to the
4 men named of the proceeds (by order of the king) and the order to the
treasurer and the chamberlain to deposit the money in the Tower.

This John may have been the gr3- or gr4-grandfather of Elizabeth Jewe who
m. (1) Sir John Hody, ancestors
of Henry Samson(Sampson), Mayflower passenger.

I hadn't heard of Elizabeth "Jewe" before, but I would have assumed that
John 'le Jeu' just meant John the Jew rather than being a family name.

Chris Phillips

Peter Stewart

Re: OT Proof of the Pudding Re: Love is the key

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 jul 2005 13:01:44

""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:002601c58d1e$4ea68b80$0300a8c0@Toshiba...
----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:59 AM
Subject: Love is the key


To have peace, Leo, you must first be peaceful. Attacking good men
like Brandon and Hines is not the way to accomplish peace. Love is the
key, Leo, not strife.

Douglas Richardson

:
Richardson casts slurs on Peter Stewart, Tim Powys-Lybbe and myself with
an e-mail on 19 July 2005 1:39 AM on my copy, headed OT You guys fought
the ENTIRE time!

[Richardson wrote:]
Actually Tim, I went on vacation earlier this month for five days. You,
Mr. Stewart, and Leo fought with EVERYONE the ENTIRE time I was gone. I
felt sorry for everyone who had to put up with your sick abuse.

I must have missed this gem - thanks for posting it, Leo. For once I think
Richardson might have been telling it as he actually sees it: for him,
Brandon, Welch and Hines are now just about "EVERYONE" he has left on-side,
apart from the odd lurker who floats to the surface occasionally, and he
thinks that any criticism of himself or a supporter must be "sick". Perhaps
there was a brouhaha involving one or more of them while he was away - I
don't recall when this happened.

In the real world, of course, his statement is preposterous and hypocritical
in the extreme. So what else is new?

Peter Stewart

Leo van de Pas

OT Proof of the Pudding Re: Love is the key

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 20 jul 2005 13:31:01

----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:59 AM
Subject: Love is the key


To have peace, Leo, you must first be peaceful. Attacking good men
like Brandon and Hines is not the way to accomplish peace. Love is the
key, Leo, not strife.

Douglas Richardson

:

Richardson casts slurs on Peter Stewart, Tim Powys-Lybbe and myself with an
e-mail on 19 July 2005 1:39 AM on my copy, headed OT You guys fought the
ENTIRE time!

Actually Tim, I went on vacation earlier this month for five days. You, Mr.
Stewart, and Leo fought with EVERYONE the ENTIRE time I was gone. I felt
sorry for everyone who had to put up with your sick abuse.

I am still waiting for him to provide one sick abusive message, let alone to
everyone. If he can't, he should apologise or else as I have asked him, step
aside for a while to allow the atmosphere to improve for everyone else.

Why do I repeat this message? Richardson thinks he is allowed to throw mud
and then sanctimoniously proclaim that Love is the Key. It think he should
turn that key and make use of it, obviously he has not.

John Brandon

Re: postings under aliases

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 jul 2005 15:34:00

So Brandon, who works in a library, does not know about the great tradition
of anonymous criticism....


Of course I know of it, "Peter," I just happen to find it distasteful
....

Svar

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