I am reposting my prior message for the third (and final) time, and I
am not even going to mention the special characters that I removed in
order to get keep google from screwing up the format of my post.
Jim Weber
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I've collected a bit about the Walwyn family as I have a more recent
descent from them. Thomas Walwyn who d.1415 had both a son and a
brother called William (they are each mentioned in his will); the
brother is identified in the Walwyn pedigree in Duncombe's Hereford as
being the William of Bickerton who married Joanna Greyndour (it gives
their son William d.1470, m. Elizabeth dau William Lanks, and had Alice
d.1518 m. Thomas Baynham d.1500, with issue). The William who was son
of Thomas Walwyn was of 'Longworth' (usually Longford). According to
BLG he was b.c1390, m. Jane/Joan dau. Sir Thomas Whitney, and d.1440.
However, it is still possible that they may have been confused over
time and swapped some details- the chronology may give a clue. Thomas
Walwyn and Sir John Greyndour do seem to have been almost exact (within
10 years) contemporaries and the article I mentioned gives Greyndour's
second wife Isabella as mother of Johanna; this would seem to favour
William the son as more likely chronologically, unless William the
brother was on a later marriage to a younger woman (although she was
not then an heiress). Thomas Walwyn (d.1415) may be found in HoP, House
of Commons 1386-1421, vol iv pp.765-6; Sir John Greyndour is also in
that series but I don't have a copy of his entry. These provide
abundant references. (There is no mention of Bickerton in Thomas'
holdings therein.)
Dear Matthew,
I am back from my long weekend and have had a chance to study your
information. I have also had a chance to reread the VCH-Gloucs account
of Ruardean, an excerpt of which I have copied below. On examining the
VCH account, it doesn't imply (as I had assumed in my prior reading)
that the William Walwyn who m. Ellen was a son of the Thomas Walwyn who
m. Isabel Hathaway. What VCH does seem to imply is that Ellen, who was
a widow of William Walwyn in 1445, was a sister of Isabel Hathaway and
coheir of the Ruardean property. Therefore we are presented with yet
another William Walwyn!
This new William Walwyn is certainly not the son of Thomas Walwyn &
Isabel Hathaway, yet this new William is probably related to the other
Walwyn family. In fact I tend to think that this William Walwyn might
be the brother mentioned in your source as William Walwyn of Bickerton.
Two sisters (Isabel & Ellen) marrying two brothers (Thomas & William)
is not unheard of. Then the William Walwyn who m. Joanna/Elizabeth
Greyndour would probably be William & Ellen (Hathaway) Walwyn's son.
We don't know how long this latter William Walwyn lived, but one could
speculate that he died v.p. and/or v.m., since the properties all
seemed to come together in the hands of his son William Walwyn
(grandson of Ellen & William), of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471. This
would explain how William of Bickerton ended up with property in
Ruardean (part from his grandmother Ellen, and part from his cousin
Isabel Hyde). It would also place the William Walwyn who m.
Joanna/Elizabeth Greyndour closer to his wife's age, as she was b.
c1395 (or at minimum after 1384).
I have updated the tables from my previous posting to include your
information, plus my proposed changes. I also eliminated the " "
previously used in my tables, as the " " had unintended consequences.
Regards,
Jim Weber
----------
VCH-GLOUCS, RUARDEAN (HATHAWAYS)
Thomas Hathaway, the owner in 1366, (Footnote 16) held land in Ruardean
from the Crown for a cash rent paid at St. Briavels castle and at his
death in 1376 his heirs were his infant daughters Isabel, Sibyl, and
Ellen. (Footnote 17) His estates in Ruardean and St. Briavels were
divided between them in 1382, when Isabel and her husband Thomas Walwyn
received her share. (Footnote 18) The Crown retained the other shares
until Sibyl, who married Nicholas Hyde, and Ellen came of age.
(Footnote 19) Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle (Herefs.), died in 1415 and
was survived by Isabel and several sons, of whom Richard was his heir.
(Footnote 20) In 1445 Ellen, the widow of William Walwyn, quitclaimed
rents in Ruardean to John Hickox and his wife Isabel, and in 1450
Isabel quitclaimed land which she had inherited from her mother Sibyl
Hyde to William Walwyn of Bickerton in Much Marcle. (Footnote 21)
William held a manor court in 1454, (Footnote 22) when he was also
described as of Ruardean, (Footnote 23) and at his death in 1471
Hathaways, held from Ruardean manor for 1d., passed to his daughter
Alice, wife of Thomas Baynham (Footnote 24) (d. 1500).
[From: 'Ruardean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 231-47. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=23261. Date
accessed: 08 July 2005]
----------
UPDATED TABLES for Dean, Greyndour, Hathaway, Baynham, & Walwyn lines.
TABLE A. Mitcheldean - VCH-Gloucs Vol V
1.William son of Norman, of Dean in 1086.
1. Hugh of Dean, fl. 1130.
1. William of Dean, fl. time of Miles of Gloucester (d. 1143) & his son
Roger Earl of Hereford (d. 1155).
1. William of Dean, d. bef.1199. (this generation is blurred with the
prior in VCH)
1. Geoffrey of Dean, held Mitcheldean 1199.
1. William of Dean, d. c1259.
1. Henry of Dean, d. c1292; (m. Agatha, da. of William de Lasborough.
[VCH-Gloucs, St. Briavels])
1. William of Dean, d. c1310.
1. William of Dean, d. c1319, m. Isabel, fl. 1320, d.bef.1328.
1.1. Joan of Dean, fl. 1384, m. 1) John Esger;
1.1. .....................by 1334 m. 2) Ralph Baynham (ap Eynon), d. by
1366.
1.1.1. Margaret, heir of Joan of Dean (or by 1st husband?), fl. 1384;
m. William of the hall, constable of Grosmont.
1.1.2. Thomas Baynham, d. in 1376; m. Joan, fl. 1376.
1.1.2.1. Thomas Baynham, d.bef.1395.
1.1.2.1.1. John Baynham, minor 1395 when he was Joan of Dean's heir,
fl. 1411, d.bef.1418; (m. Elizabeth. [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1436; (m. Margaret Abrale/Abrahall
[VoG]).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham, minor 1436, d. 1500; m. 1) (Margaret,
da. of Richard or John Huddy [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Alexander Baynham, (heir by 1st wife), of
Mitcheldean, d. 1524.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. John Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1528 (d.s.p.).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2. William Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1568; m. Anne,
fl. 1573 (holding Mitcheldean).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1572; m. Mary, d. 1610; m. Sir
Robert Woodruff, d. 1609.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2. Joseph Baynham, d. 1613, granted (temporarily?)
Mitcheldean in 1574 to Thomas Horn.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2.1. Alexander Baynham sold Mitcheldean in 1619 to
Nicholas Roberts.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham (above) by 1471 m. 2) Alice Walwyn SEE
TABLE B.
1.2. Isabel of Dean (, d.bef.1358; m. 1) Ralph Abenhall; m by 1354. 2)
John Basset. [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE C.
TABLE B. Newland (Clearwell Manor) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. Richard son of Joce, Woodward of Dean, fl. 1223
1. William Joce (maybe son of Richard), Forester of Dean, fl. 1245.
1. William Joce (maybe son of William), held Bearse bailiwick in
Newland in 1282.
1. Philip Joce, given lands in Newland in 1320 by William (or another
William Joce (son of William?)).
1.1. (Sir Philip Joce, of Clearwell, of age 1310, fl. 19 Dec 1341.
[A2A])
1.2. (John Joce, of Newland, of age 1310 (at which time he was named
"senior"). [A2A, VoG])
1.2.1.. John Joce, (b. bef 1310 [A2A]), mentioned with son John in
1365.
1.2.1.1. John Joce, of age 1365, d.bef.1389; m. by 1378 Isabel; m. by
1395 John Greyndour SEE BELOW.
1.2.2. (Margaret Joce m. Robert Greyndour [VoG])
1.2.2.1. Lawrence Greyndour, fl. 1358; m. Margaret heiress of Abenhall,
d. 1375. SEE TABLE C.
1.2.2.1.1. John Greyndour, d. 1415/6, of Clearwell; m. 1) Marion; m. by
1395 2) Isabel SEE ABOVE.
1.2.2.1.1.1. Robert Greyndour (by 1st wife), d. 1443; m. Joan Rugge, d.
1484; m. bef 1455 John Barre, d. 1483.
1.2.2.1.1.1.1. Elizabeth, b. c1420, dsp. 1452; m. 1) Reynold West [Lord
la Warre]; m. 2) John Tiptoft [Earl of Worcs]
1.2.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour, b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]); m.
William Walwyn of Bickerton. SEE TABLE D.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471 (m.
Elizabeth dau. of William Lanks [SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1. Alice Walwyn, d.1518; m. by 1471 1) Thomas Baynham; m.
2) Sir Walter Dennis. SEE TABLE A.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.1. (Isabel Baynham, d.aft24 Jun 1517; m. Giles Brugge
of Cubberley, d. 1 Dec 1511 [CP 3:152, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth Baynham; m. 1) Robert Russell; 2) Robert
Throckmorton of Coughton [AR7, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3. Sir Christopher Baynham, heir of his mother, of
Clearwell; (m. Joane Morgan [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1. Sir George Baynham, d. 1546; (m. Cecily, da. of
John Gage by Philippa Guilford [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.1. Christopher Baynham, minor 1546, fl. 1555,
dsp.bef.1558.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.2. Richard Baynham, dsp. 1580.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3. Thomas Baynham, d. 1611; (m. Mary da. of William
Winter [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1. Cecily Baynham; m. Sir William Throckmorton,
Bt, d. 1628.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
1664.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
c1680; m. Catherine, fl. 1698.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1.1. Catherine Wild (dau.) & Carolina
Scrymsher (step-dau.) sold Clearwell in 1698
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.2. Joan Baynham; m. John Vaughan.
TABLE C. Abenhall - VCH-Glocs Vol V.
1. William Abenhall, a woodward in 1216 and 1237.
1. Ralph Abenhall, fl. 1255.
1. Ralph Abenhall (possibly same as above), d. c1301.
1.1. John Abenhall, dsp.bef.1317.
1.2. Ralph Abenhall, fl.1317, granted Abenhall to his brother Reynold.
1.3. Reynold Abenhall, d. c1341.
1.3.1. Ralph Abenhall, d.c1347; (m. Isabel of Dean; m. by 1354 John
Basset [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE A.
1.3.1.1. Margaret Abenhall, heir, d. 1375, m. Lawrence Greyndour, of
Newland, fl. 1358. SEE TABLE B.
TABLE D. Ruardean (Hathaways Court) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. c1317.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.bef.1355.
1. Walter Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.bef.1366.
1. Thomas Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. 1376.
1.1. Isabel Hathaway, heir of Hathaway in 1382, b. c1366, d.aft.1415,
m. Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle, d. 1415.
1.1.1. Richard Walwyn, heir, of Much Marcle.
1.1.2. (Thomas Walwyn, of Hellens Manor? [BP])
1.1.2.1. (Margaret Walwin; m. William de Croft, Sheriff of Hereford
[BP])
1.1.3. (William Walwyn, of Longford, b. c1390, d. 1440; m. Jane/Joan
dau. of Thomas Whitney. [SGM])
1.2. Sibyl Hathaway, b. c1369, d.bef.1450; m. Nicholas Hyde.
1.2.1. Isabel in 1450 quitclaimed lands inherited from Sibyl (mother)
to William Walwyn of Bickerton.
1.3. Ellen Hathaway, b. c1372, fl. 1445; m. William Walwyn, d.bef.1445
(of Bickerton, brother of Thomas d. 1415 [SGM, me])
1.3.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton (m. Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour,
b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]) SEE TABLE B.