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Jim Weber

Re: Greyndour ancestry for Alice Walwyn, per VCH-Glouc.

Legg inn av Jim Weber » 08 jul 2005 20:38:31

Dear Newsgroup,

I am reposting my prior message for the third (and final) time, and I
am not even going to mention the special characters that I removed in
order to get keep google from screwing up the format of my post.

Jim Weber

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I've collected a bit about the Walwyn family as I have a more recent
descent from them. Thomas Walwyn who d.1415 had both a son and a
brother called William (they are each mentioned in his will); the
brother is identified in the Walwyn pedigree in Duncombe's Hereford as
being the William of Bickerton who married Joanna Greyndour (it gives
their son William d.1470, m. Elizabeth dau William Lanks, and had Alice
d.1518 m. Thomas Baynham d.1500, with issue). The William who was son
of Thomas Walwyn was of 'Longworth' (usually Longford). According to
BLG he was b.c1390, m. Jane/Joan dau. Sir Thomas Whitney, and d.1440.
However, it is still possible that they may have been confused over
time and swapped some details- the chronology may give a clue. Thomas
Walwyn and Sir John Greyndour do seem to have been almost exact (within
10 years) contemporaries and the article I mentioned gives Greyndour's
second wife Isabella as mother of Johanna; this would seem to favour
William the son as more likely chronologically, unless William the
brother was on a later marriage to a younger woman (although she was
not then an heiress). Thomas Walwyn (d.1415) may be found in HoP, House
of Commons 1386-1421, vol iv pp.765-6; Sir John Greyndour is also in
that series but I don't have a copy of his entry. These provide
abundant references. (There is no mention of Bickerton in Thomas'
holdings therein.)

Dear Matthew,

I am back from my long weekend and have had a chance to study your
information. I have also had a chance to reread the VCH-Gloucs account
of Ruardean, an excerpt of which I have copied below. On examining the
VCH account, it doesn't imply (as I had assumed in my prior reading)
that the William Walwyn who m. Ellen was a son of the Thomas Walwyn who
m. Isabel Hathaway. What VCH does seem to imply is that Ellen, who was
a widow of William Walwyn in 1445, was a sister of Isabel Hathaway and
coheir of the Ruardean property. Therefore we are presented with yet
another William Walwyn!

This new William Walwyn is certainly not the son of Thomas Walwyn &
Isabel Hathaway, yet this new William is probably related to the other
Walwyn family. In fact I tend to think that this William Walwyn might
be the brother mentioned in your source as William Walwyn of Bickerton.
Two sisters (Isabel & Ellen) marrying two brothers (Thomas & William)
is not unheard of. Then the William Walwyn who m. Joanna/Elizabeth
Greyndour would probably be William & Ellen (Hathaway) Walwyn's son.
We don't know how long this latter William Walwyn lived, but one could
speculate that he died v.p. and/or v.m., since the properties all
seemed to come together in the hands of his son William Walwyn
(grandson of Ellen & William), of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471. This
would explain how William of Bickerton ended up with property in
Ruardean (part from his grandmother Ellen, and part from his cousin
Isabel Hyde). It would also place the William Walwyn who m.
Joanna/Elizabeth Greyndour closer to his wife's age, as she was b.
c1395 (or at minimum after 1384).

I have updated the tables from my previous posting to include your
information, plus my proposed changes. I also eliminated the " "
previously used in my tables, as the " " had unintended consequences.

Regards,

Jim Weber

----------

VCH-GLOUCS, RUARDEAN (HATHAWAYS)

Thomas Hathaway, the owner in 1366, (Footnote 16) held land in Ruardean
from the Crown for a cash rent paid at St. Briavels castle and at his
death in 1376 his heirs were his infant daughters Isabel, Sibyl, and
Ellen. (Footnote 17) His estates in Ruardean and St. Briavels were
divided between them in 1382, when Isabel and her husband Thomas Walwyn
received her share. (Footnote 18) The Crown retained the other shares
until Sibyl, who married Nicholas Hyde, and Ellen came of age.
(Footnote 19) Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle (Herefs.), died in 1415 and
was survived by Isabel and several sons, of whom Richard was his heir.
(Footnote 20) In 1445 Ellen, the widow of William Walwyn, quitclaimed
rents in Ruardean to John Hickox and his wife Isabel, and in 1450
Isabel quitclaimed land which she had inherited from her mother Sibyl
Hyde to William Walwyn of Bickerton in Much Marcle. (Footnote 21)
William held a manor court in 1454, (Footnote 22) when he was also
described as of Ruardean, (Footnote 23) and at his death in 1471
Hathaways, held from Ruardean manor for 1d., passed to his daughter
Alice, wife of Thomas Baynham (Footnote 24) (d. 1500).

[From: 'Ruardean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 231-47. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=23261. Date
accessed: 08 July 2005]

----------

UPDATED TABLES for Dean, Greyndour, Hathaway, Baynham, & Walwyn lines.

TABLE A. Mitcheldean - VCH-Gloucs Vol V

1.William son of Norman, of Dean in 1086.
1. Hugh of Dean, fl. 1130.
1. William of Dean, fl. time of Miles of Gloucester (d. 1143) & his son
Roger Earl of Hereford (d. 1155).
1. William of Dean, d. bef.1199. (this generation is blurred with the
prior in VCH)
1. Geoffrey of Dean, held Mitcheldean 1199.
1. William of Dean, d. c1259.
1. Henry of Dean, d. c1292; (m. Agatha, da. of William de Lasborough.
[VCH-Gloucs, St. Briavels])
1. William of Dean, d. c1310.
1. William of Dean, d. c1319, m. Isabel, fl. 1320, d.bef.1328.
1.1. Joan of Dean, fl. 1384, m. 1) John Esger;
1.1. .....................by 1334 m. 2) Ralph Baynham (ap Eynon), d. by
1366.
1.1.1. Margaret, heir of Joan of Dean (or by 1st husband?), fl. 1384;
m. William of the hall, constable of Grosmont.
1.1.2. Thomas Baynham, d. in 1376; m. Joan, fl. 1376.
1.1.2.1. Thomas Baynham, d.bef.1395.
1.1.2.1.1. John Baynham, minor 1395 when he was Joan of Dean's heir,
fl. 1411, d.bef.1418; (m. Elizabeth. [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1436; (m. Margaret Abrale/Abrahall
[VoG]).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham, minor 1436, d. 1500; m. 1) (Margaret,
da. of Richard or John Huddy [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Alexander Baynham, (heir by 1st wife), of
Mitcheldean, d. 1524.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. John Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1528 (d.s.p.).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2. William Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1568; m. Anne,
fl. 1573 (holding Mitcheldean).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1572; m. Mary, d. 1610; m. Sir
Robert Woodruff, d. 1609.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2. Joseph Baynham, d. 1613, granted (temporarily?)
Mitcheldean in 1574 to Thomas Horn.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2.1. Alexander Baynham sold Mitcheldean in 1619 to
Nicholas Roberts.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham (above) by 1471 m. 2) Alice Walwyn SEE
TABLE B.
1.2. Isabel of Dean (, d.bef.1358; m. 1) Ralph Abenhall; m by 1354. 2)
John Basset. [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE C.

TABLE B. Newland (Clearwell Manor) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.

1. Richard son of Joce, Woodward of Dean, fl. 1223
1. William Joce (maybe son of Richard), Forester of Dean, fl. 1245.
1. William Joce (maybe son of William), held Bearse bailiwick in
Newland in 1282.
1. Philip Joce, given lands in Newland in 1320 by William (or another
William Joce (son of William?)).
1.1. (Sir Philip Joce, of Clearwell, of age 1310, fl. 19 Dec 1341.
[A2A])
1.2. (John Joce, of Newland, of age 1310 (at which time he was named
"senior"). [A2A, VoG])
1.2.1.. John Joce, (b. bef 1310 [A2A]), mentioned with son John in
1365.
1.2.1.1. John Joce, of age 1365, d.bef.1389; m. by 1378 Isabel; m. by
1395 John Greyndour SEE BELOW.
1.2.2. (Margaret Joce m. Robert Greyndour [VoG])
1.2.2.1. Lawrence Greyndour, fl. 1358; m. Margaret heiress of Abenhall,
d. 1375. SEE TABLE C.
1.2.2.1.1. John Greyndour, d. 1415/6, of Clearwell; m. 1) Marion; m. by
1395 2) Isabel SEE ABOVE.
1.2.2.1.1.1. Robert Greyndour (by 1st wife), d. 1443; m. Joan Rugge, d.
1484; m. bef 1455 John Barre, d. 1483.
1.2.2.1.1.1.1. Elizabeth, b. c1420, dsp. 1452; m. 1) Reynold West [Lord
la Warre]; m. 2) John Tiptoft [Earl of Worcs]
1.2.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour, b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]); m.
William Walwyn of Bickerton. SEE TABLE D.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471 (m.
Elizabeth dau. of William Lanks [SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1. Alice Walwyn, d.1518; m. by 1471 1) Thomas Baynham; m.
2) Sir Walter Dennis. SEE TABLE A.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.1. (Isabel Baynham, d.aft24 Jun 1517; m. Giles Brugge
of Cubberley, d. 1 Dec 1511 [CP 3:152, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth Baynham; m. 1) Robert Russell; 2) Robert
Throckmorton of Coughton [AR7, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3. Sir Christopher Baynham, heir of his mother, of
Clearwell; (m. Joane Morgan [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1. Sir George Baynham, d. 1546; (m. Cecily, da. of
John Gage by Philippa Guilford [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.1. Christopher Baynham, minor 1546, fl. 1555,
dsp.bef.1558.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.2. Richard Baynham, dsp. 1580.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3. Thomas Baynham, d. 1611; (m. Mary da. of William
Winter [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1. Cecily Baynham; m. Sir William Throckmorton,
Bt, d. 1628.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
1664.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
c1680; m. Catherine, fl. 1698.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1.1. Catherine Wild (dau.) & Carolina
Scrymsher (step-dau.) sold Clearwell in 1698
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.2. Joan Baynham; m. John Vaughan.

TABLE C. Abenhall - VCH-Glocs Vol V.

1. William Abenhall, a woodward in 1216 and 1237.
1. Ralph Abenhall, fl. 1255.
1. Ralph Abenhall (possibly same as above), d. c1301.
1.1. John Abenhall, dsp.bef.1317.
1.2. Ralph Abenhall, fl.1317, granted Abenhall to his brother Reynold.
1.3. Reynold Abenhall, d. c1341.
1.3.1. Ralph Abenhall, d.c1347; (m. Isabel of Dean; m. by 1354 John
Basset [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE A.
1.3.1.1. Margaret Abenhall, heir, d. 1375, m. Lawrence Greyndour, of
Newland, fl. 1358. SEE TABLE B.

TABLE D. Ruardean (Hathaways Court) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.

1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. c1317.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.bef.1355.
1. Walter Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.bef.1366.
1. Thomas Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. 1376.
1.1. Isabel Hathaway, heir of Hathaway in 1382, b. c1366, d.aft.1415,
m. Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle, d. 1415.
1.1.1. Richard Walwyn, heir, of Much Marcle.
1.1.2. (Thomas Walwyn, of Hellens Manor? [BP])
1.1.2.1. (Margaret Walwin; m. William de Croft, Sheriff of Hereford
[BP])
1.1.3. (William Walwyn, of Longford, b. c1390, d. 1440; m. Jane/Joan
dau. of Thomas Whitney. [SGM])
1.2. Sibyl Hathaway, b. c1369, d.bef.1450; m. Nicholas Hyde.
1.2.1. Isabel in 1450 quitclaimed lands inherited from Sibyl (mother)
to William Walwyn of Bickerton.
1.3. Ellen Hathaway, b. c1372, fl. 1445; m. William Walwyn, d.bef.1445
(of Bickerton, brother of Thomas d. 1415 [SGM, me])
1.3.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton (m. Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour,
b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]) SEE TABLE B.

Jim Weber

Re: Greyndour ancestry for Alice Walwyn, per VCH-Glouc.

Legg inn av Jim Weber » 08 jul 2005 20:45:16

Dear Newsgroup,

I am reposting my prior message for the fourth (and maybe final) time,
and I am not even sure of what else I might have to remove in order to
get keep google from screwing up the format of my post.

Jim Weber

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I've collected a bit about the Walwyn family as I have a more recent
descent from them. Thomas Walwyn who d.1415 had both a son and a
brother called William (they are each mentioned in his will); the
brother is identified in the Walwyn pedigree in Duncombe's Hereford as
being the William of Bickerton who married Joanna Greyndour (it gives
their son William d.1470, m. Elizabeth dau William Lanks, and had Alice
d.1518 m. Thomas Baynham d.1500, with issue). The William who was son
of Thomas Walwyn was of 'Longworth' (usually Longford). According to
BLG he was b.c1390, m. Jane/Joan dau. Sir Thomas Whitney, and d.1440.
However, it is still possible that they may have been confused over
time and swapped some details- the chronology may give a clue. Thomas
Walwyn and Sir John Greyndour do seem to have been almost exact (within
10 years) contemporaries and the article I mentioned gives Greyndour's
second wife Isabella as mother of Johanna; this would seem to favour
William the son as more likely chronologically, unless William the
brother was on a later marriage to a younger woman (although she was
not then an heiress). Thomas Walwyn (d.1415) may be found in HoP, House
of Commons 1386-1421, vol iv pp.765-6; Sir John Greyndour is also in
that series but I don't have a copy of his entry. These provide
abundant references. (There is no mention of Bickerton in Thomas'
holdings therein.)

Dear Matthew,

I am back from my long weekend and have had a chance to study your
information. I have also had a chance to reread the VCH-Gloucs account
of Ruardean, an excerpt of which I have copied below. On examining the
VCH account, it doesn't imply (as I had assumed in my prior reading)
that the William Walwyn who m. Ellen was a son of the Thomas Walwyn who
m. Isabel Hathaway. What VCH does seem to imply is that Ellen, who was
a widow of William Walwyn in 1445, was a sister of Isabel Hathaway and
coheir of the Ruardean property. Therefore we are presented with yet
another William Walwyn!

This new William Walwyn is certainly not the son of Thomas Walwyn &
Isabel Hathaway, yet this new William is probably related to the other
Walwyn family. In fact I tend to think that this William Walwyn might
be the brother mentioned in your source as William Walwyn of Bickerton.
Two sisters (Isabel & Ellen) marrying two brothers (Thomas & William)
is not unheard of. Then the William Walwyn who m. Joanna/Elizabeth
Greyndour would probably be William & Ellen (Hathaway) Walwyn's son.
We don't know how long this latter William Walwyn lived, but one could
speculate that he died v.p. and/or v.m., since the properties all
seemed to come together in the hands of his son William Walwyn
(grandson of Ellen & William), of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471. This
would explain how William of Bickerton ended up with property in
Ruardean (part from his grandmother Ellen, and part from his cousin
Isabel Hyde). It would also place the William Walwyn who m.
Joanna/Elizabeth Greyndour closer to his wife's age, as she was b.
c1395 (or at minimum after 1384).

I have updated the tables from my previous posting to include your
information, plus my proposed changes. I also eliminated the " "
previously used in my tables, as the " " had unintended consequences.

Regards,

Jim Weber

----------

VCH-GLOUCS, RUARDEAN (HATHAWAYS)

Thomas Hathaway, the owner in 1366, (Footnote 16) held land in Ruardean
from the Crown for a cash rent paid at St. Briavels castle and at his
death in 1376 his heirs were his infant daughters Isabel, Sibyl, and
Ellen. (Footnote 17) His estates in Ruardean and St. Briavels were
divided between them in 1382, when Isabel and her husband Thomas Walwyn
received her share. (Footnote 18) The Crown retained the other shares
until Sibyl, who married Nicholas Hyde, and Ellen came of age.
(Footnote 19) Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle (Herefs.), died in 1415 and
was survived by Isabel and several sons, of whom Richard was his heir.
(Footnote 20) In 1445 Ellen, the widow of William Walwyn, quitclaimed
rents in Ruardean to John Hickox and his wife Isabel, and in 1450
Isabel quitclaimed land which she had inherited from her mother Sibyl
Hyde to William Walwyn of Bickerton in Much Marcle. (Footnote 21)
William held a manor court in 1454, (Footnote 22) when he was also
described as of Ruardean, (Footnote 23) and at his death in 1471
Hathaways, held from Ruardean manor for 1d., passed to his daughter
Alice, wife of Thomas Baynham (Footnote 24) (d. 1500).

[From: 'Ruardean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 231-47. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=23261. Date
accessed: 08 July 2005]

----------

UPDATED TABLES for Dean, Greyndour, Hathaway, Baynham, & Walwyn lines.

TABLE A. Mitcheldean - VCH-Gloucs Vol V

1.William son of Norman, of Dean in 1086.
1. Hugh of Dean, fl. 1130.
1. William of Dean, fl. time of Miles of Gloucester (d. 1143) & his son
Roger Earl of Hereford (d. 1155).
1. William of Dean, d. bef 1199. (this generation is blurred with the
prior in VCH)
1. Geoffrey of Dean, held Mitcheldean 1199.
1. William of Dean, d. c1259.
1. Henry of Dean, d. c1292; (m. Agatha, da. of William de Lasborough.
[VCH-Gloucs, St. Briavels])
1. William of Dean, d. c1310.
1. William of Dean, d. c1319, m. Isabel, fl. 1320, d. bef 1328.
1.1. Joan of Dean, fl. 1384, m. 1) John Esger;
1.1. .....................by 1334 m. 2) Ralph Baynham (ap Eynon), d. by
1366.
1.1.1. Margaret, heir of Joan of Dean (or by 1st husband?), fl. 1384;
m. William of the hall, constable of Grosmont.
1.1.2. Thomas Baynham, d. in 1376; m. Joan, fl. 1376.
1.1.2.1. Thomas Baynham, d. bef 1395.
1.1.2.1.1. John Baynham, minor 1395 when he was Joan of Dean's heir,
fl. 1411, d. bef 1418; (m. Elizabeth. [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1436; (m. Margaret Abrale/Abrahall
[VoG]).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham, minor 1436, d. 1500; m. 1) (Margaret,
da. of Richard or John Huddy [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Alexander Baynham, (heir by 1st wife), of
Mitcheldean, d. 1524.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. John Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1528 (d.s.p.).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2. William Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1568; m. Anne,
fl. 1573 (holding Mitcheldean).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1572; m. Mary, d. 1610; m. Sir
Robert Woodruff, d. 1609.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2. Joseph Baynham, d. 1613, granted (temporarily?)
Mitcheldean in 1574 to Thomas Horn.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2.1. Alexander Baynham sold Mitcheldean in 1619 to
Nicholas Roberts.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham (above) by 1471 m. 2) Alice Walwyn SEE
TABLE B.
1.2. Isabel of Dean (, d. bef 1358; m. 1) Ralph Abenhall; m by 1354. 2)
John Basset. [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE C.

TABLE B. Newland (Clearwell Manor) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.

1. Richard son of Joce, Woodward of Dean, fl. 1223
1. William Joce (maybe son of Richard), Forester of Dean, fl. 1245.
1. William Joce (maybe son of William), held Bearse bailiwick in
Newland in 1282.
1. Philip Joce, given lands in Newland in 1320 by William (or another
William Joce (son of William?)).
1.1. (Sir Philip Joce, of Clearwell, of age 1310, fl. 19 Dec 1341.
[A2A])
1.2. (John Joce, of Newland, of age 1310 (at which time he was named
"senior"). [A2A, VoG])
1.2.1.. John Joce, (b. bef 1310 [A2A]), mentioned with son John in
1365.
1.2.1.1. John Joce, of age 1365, d. bef 1389; m. by 1378 Isabel; m. by
1395 John Greyndour SEE BELOW.
1.2.2. (Margaret Joce m. Robert Greyndour [VoG])
1.2.2.1. Lawrence Greyndour, fl. 1358; m. Margaret heiress of Abenhall,
d. 1375. SEE TABLE C.
1.2.2.1.1. John Greyndour, d. 1415/6, of Clearwell; m. 1) Marion; m. by
1395 2) Isabel SEE ABOVE.
1.2.2.1.1.1. Robert Greyndour (by 1st wife), d. 1443; m. Joan Rugge, d.
1484; m. bef 1455 John Barre, d. 1483.
1.2.2.1.1.1.1. Elizabeth, b. c1420, dsp. 1452; m. 1) Reynold West [Lord
la Warre]; m. 2) John Tiptoft [Earl of Worcs]
1.2.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour, b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]); m.
William Walwyn of Bickerton. SEE TABLE D.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471 (m.
Elizabeth dau. of William Lanks [SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1. Alice Walwyn, d.1518; m. by 1471 1) Thomas Baynham; m.
2) Sir Walter Dennis. SEE TABLE A.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.1. (Isabel Baynham, d. aft 24 Jun 1517; m. Giles Brugge
of Cubberley, d. 1 Dec 1511 [CP 3:152, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth Baynham; m. 1) Robert Russell; 2) Robert
Throckmorton of Coughton [AR7, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3. Sir Christopher Baynham, heir of his mother, of
Clearwell; (m. Joane Morgan [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1. Sir George Baynham, d. 1546; (m. Cecily, da. of
John Gage by Philippa Guilford [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.1. Christopher Baynham, minor 1546, fl. 1555,
dsp.bef 1558.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.2. Richard Baynham, dsp. 1580.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3. Thomas Baynham, d. 1611; (m. Mary da. of William
Winter [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1. Cecily Baynham; m. Sir William Throckmorton,
Bt, d. 1628.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
1664.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
c1680; m. Catherine, fl. 1698.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1.1. Catherine Wild (dau.) & Carolina
Scrymsher (step-dau.) sold Clearwell in 1698
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.2. Joan Baynham; m. John Vaughan.

TABLE C. Abenhall - VCH-Glocs Vol V.

1. William Abenhall, a woodward in 1216 and 1237.
1. Ralph Abenhall, fl. 1255.
1. Ralph Abenhall (possibly same as above), d. c1301.
1.1. John Abenhall, dsp.bef 1317.
1.2. Ralph Abenhall, fl.1317, granted Abenhall to his brother Reynold.
1.3. Reynold Abenhall, d. c1341.
1.3.1. Ralph Abenhall, d.c1347; (m. Isabel of Dean; m. by 1354 John
Basset [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE A.
1.3.1.1. Margaret Abenhall, heir, d. 1375, m. Lawrence Greyndour, of
Newland, fl. 1358. SEE TABLE B.

TABLE D. Ruardean (Hathaways Court) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.

1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. c1317.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. bef 1355.
1. Walter Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. bef 1366.
1. Thomas Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. 1376.
1.1. Isabel Hathaway, heir of Hathaway in 1382, b. c1366, d. aft 1415,
m. Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle, d. 1415.
1.1.1. Richard Walwyn, heir, of Much Marcle.
1.1.2. (Thomas Walwyn, of Hellens Manor? [BP])
1.1.2.1. (Margaret Walwin; m. William de Croft, Sheriff of Hereford
[BP])
1.1.3. (William Walwyn, of Longford, b. c1390, d. 1440; m. Jane/Joan
dau. of Thomas Whitney. [SGM])
1.2. Sibyl Hathaway, b. c1369, d. bef 1450; m. Nicholas Hyde.
1.2.1. Isabel in 1450 quitclaimed lands inherited from Sibyl (mother)
to William Walwyn of Bickerton.
1.3. Ellen Hathaway, b. c1372, fl. 1445; m. William Walwyn, d. bef 1445
(of Bickerton, brother of Thomas d. 1415 [SGM, me])
1.3.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton (m. Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour,
b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]) SEE TABLE B.

Jim Weber

Re: Greyndour ancestry for Alice Walwyn, per VCH-Glouc.

Legg inn av Jim Weber » 08 jul 2005 20:52:22

Ok, I give up. Google screwed up my last message for no good reason
that I can see. If I click on "see more" for my message, then the post
turns out like I posted it. Otherwise nearly the entire posting is
hidden under "show quoted text".

Does anyone have any ideas about what I am doing wrong?

Jim Weber

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Greyndour ancestry for Alice Walwyn, per VCH-Glouc.

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 08 jul 2005 21:13:42

In message of 8 Jul, "Jim Weber" <jim.weber@nwintl.com> wrote:

Ok, I give up. Google screwed up my last message for no good reason
that I can see. If I click on "see more" for my message, then the post
turns out like I posted it. Otherwise nearly the entire posting is
hidden under "show quoted text".

Does anyone have any ideas about what I am doing wrong?

You could always give up on using Google as it may be trying to do
things with the core Usenet that it probably can't. You might just get
a proper news reader (http://www.forteinc.com is a start) and use a proper
usenet feed. Some ISPs will include a Usenet feed as part of the
service.

Or join Rootsweb with their mailing list gateway to MEDIEVAL-L?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Greyndour ancestry for Alice Walwyn, per VCH-Glouc.

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 jul 2005 21:35:36

Dear Jim,

I can't help with the posting problems, but on first sight the latest
reconstruction is very neat; and it does ease the chronology that was
looking a little off. Good work!

For your Walwyn chart, the known children of Thomas and Isabel are
Richard, William, Malcolm, Joan wife of Hugh Folyot, and Christine.
Thomas of Hellens in your chart is son of Richard the eldest son. It
looks impossible that Margaret (Croft) could be his daughter
(chronology again); the Croft family history assigns her to the elder
Thomas but she isn't mentioned in his will. Richard is the more likely
generation for her father but isn't called Thomas- more to look into
I'm afraid.

Matthew

Jim Weber wrote:
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

I've collected a bit about the Walwyn family as I have a more recent
descent from them. Thomas Walwyn who d.1415 had both a son and a
brother called William (they are each mentioned in his will); the
brother is identified in the Walwyn pedigree in Duncombe's Hereford as
being the William of Bickerton who married Joanna Greyndour (it gives
their son William d.1470, m. Elizabeth dau William Lanks, and had Alice
d.1518 m. Thomas Baynham d.1500, with issue). The William who was son
of Thomas Walwyn was of 'Longworth' (usually Longford). According to
BLG he was b.c1390, m. Jane/Joan dau. Sir Thomas Whitney, and d.1440.
However, it is still possible that they may have been confused over
time and swapped some details- the chronology may give a clue. Thomas
Walwyn and Sir John Greyndour do seem to have been almost exact (within
10 years) contemporaries and the article I mentioned gives Greyndour's
second wife Isabella as mother of Johanna; this would seem to favour
William the son as more likely chronologically, unless William the
brother was on a later marriage to a younger woman (although she was
not then an heiress). Thomas Walwyn (d.1415) may be found in HoP, House
of Commons 1386-1421, vol iv pp.765-6; Sir John Greyndour is also in
that series but I don't have a copy of his entry. These provide
abundant references. (There is no mention of Bickerton in Thomas'
holdings therein.)

Dear Matthew,

I am back from my long weekend and have had a chance to study your
information. I have also had a chance to reread the VCH-Gloucs account
of Ruardean, an excerpt of which I have copied below. On examining the
VCH account, it doesn't imply (as I had assumed in my prior reading)
that the William Walwyn who m. Ellen was a son of the Thomas Walwyn who
m. Isabel Hathaway. What VCH does seem to imply is that Ellen, who was
a widow of William Walwyn in 1445, was a sister of Isabel Hathaway and
coheir of the Ruardean property. Therefore we are presented with yet
another William Walwyn!

This new William Walwyn is certainly not the son of Thomas Walwyn &
Isabel Hathaway, yet this new William is probably related to the other
Walwyn family. In fact I tend to think that this William Walwyn might
be the brother mentioned in your source as William Walwyn of Bickerton.
Two sisters (Isabel & Ellen) marrying two brothers (Thomas & William)
is not unheard of. Then the William Walwyn who m. Joanna/Elizabeth
Greyndour would probably be William & Ellen (Hathaway) Walwyn's son.
We don't know how long this latter William Walwyn lived, but one could
speculate that he died v.p. and/or v.m., since the properties all
seemed to come together in the hands of his son William Walwyn
(grandson of Ellen & William), of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471. This
would explain how William of Bickerton ended up with property in
Ruardean (part from his grandmother Ellen, and part from his cousin
Isabel Hyde). It would also place the William Walwyn who m.
Joanna/Elizabeth Greyndour closer to his wife's age, as she was b.
c1395 (or at minimum after 1384).

I have updated the tables from my previous posting to include your
information, plus my proposed changes. I also changed the ">"
previously used in my tables to a ".", as the ">" had unintended
consequences.

Regards,

Jim Weber

----------

VCH-GLOUCS, RUARDEAN (HATHAWAYS)

...Thomas Hathaway, the owner in 1366, (Footnote 16) held land in
Ruardean from the Crown for a cash rent paid at St. Briavels castle and
at his death in 1376 his heirs were his infant daughters Isabel, Sibyl,
and Ellen. (Footnote 17) His estates in Ruardean and St. Briavels were
divided between them in 1382, when Isabel and her husband Thomas Walwyn
received her share. (Footnote 18) The Crown retained the other shares
until Sibyl, who married Nicholas Hyde, and Ellen came of age.
(Footnote 19) Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle (Herefs.), died in 1415 and
was survived by Isabel and several sons, of whom Richard was his heir.
(Footnote 20) In 1445 Ellen, the widow of William Walwyn, quitclaimed
rents in Ruardean to John Hickox and his wife Isabel, and in 1450
Isabel quitclaimed land which she had inherited from her mother Sibyl
Hyde to William Walwyn of Bickerton in Much Marcle. (Footnote 21)
William held a manor court in 1454, (Footnote 22) when he was also
described as of Ruardean, (Footnote 23) and at his death in 1471
Hathaways, held from Ruardean manor for 1d., passed to his daughter
Alice, wife of Thomas Baynham (Footnote 24) (d. 1500)...

[From: 'Ruardean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 231-47. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=23261. Date
accessed: 08 July 2005]

----------

UPDATED TABLES for Dean, Greyndour, Hathaway, Baynham, & Walwyn lines.

TABLE A. Mitcheldean - VCH-Gloucs Vol V

1.William son of Norman, of Dean in 1086.
.1. Hugh of Dean, fl. 1130.
.1. William of Dean, fl. time of Miles of Gloucester (d. 1143) & his
son Roger Earl of Hereford (d. 1155).
.1. William of Dean, d.<1199. (this generation is blurred with the
prior in VCH)
.1. Geoffrey of Dean, held Mitcheldean 1199.
.1. William of Dean, d. c1259.
.1. Henry of Dean, d. c1292; (m. Agatha, da. of William de Lasborough.
[VCH-Gloucs, St. Briavels])
.1. William of Dean, d. c1310.
.1. William of Dean, d. c1319, m. Isabel, fl. 1320, d.<1328.
.1.1. Joan of Dean, fl. 1384, m. 1) John Esger;
.1.1. .....................by 1334 m. 2) Ralph Baynham (ap Eynon), d.
by 1366.
.1.1.1. Margaret, heir of Joan of Dean (or by 1st husband?), fl. 1384;
m. William of the hall, constable of Grosmont.
.1.1.2. Thomas Baynham, d. in 1376; m. Joan, fl. 1376.
.1.1.2.1. Thomas Baynham, d.<1395.
.1.1.2.1.1. John Baynham, minor 1395 when he was Joan of Dean's heir,
fl. 1411, d.<1418; (m. Elizabeth. [VoG])
.1.1.2.1.1.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1436; (m. Margaret Abrale/Abrahall
[VoG]).
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham, minor 1436, d. 1500; m. 1) (Margaret,
da. of Richard or John Huddy [VoG])
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Alexander Baynham, (heir by 1st wife), of
Mitcheldean, d. 1524.
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. John Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1528 (d.s.p.).
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2. William Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1568; m. Anne,
fl. 1573 (holding Mitcheldean).
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1572; m. Mary, d. 1610; m. Sir
Robert Woodruff, d. 1609.
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2. Joseph Baynham, d. 1613, granted (temporarily?)
Mitcheldean in 1574 to Thomas Horn.
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2.1. Alexander Baynham sold Mitcheldean in 1619 to
Nicholas Roberts.
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham (above) by 1471 m. 2) Alice Walwyn SEE
TABLE B.
.1.2. Isabel of Dean (, d.<1358; m. 1) Ralph Abenhall; m by 1354. 2)
John Basset. [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE C.

TABLE B. Newland (Clearwell Manor) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.

1. Richard son of Joce, Woodward of Dean, fl. 1223
.1. William Joce (maybe son of Richard), Forester of Dean, fl. 1245.
.1. William Joce (maybe son of William), held Bearse bailiwick in
Newland in 1282.
.1. Philip Joce, given lands in Newland in 1320 by William (or another
William Joce (son of William?)).
.1.1. (Sir Philip Joce, of Clearwell, of age 1310, fl. 19 Dec 1341.
[A2A])
.1.2. (John Joce, of Newland, of age 1310 (at which time he was named
"senior"). [A2A, VoG])
.1.2.1.. John Joce, (b. bef 1310 [A2A]), mentioned with son John in
1365.
.1.2.1.1. John Joce, of age 1365, d.<1389; m. by 1378 Isabel; m. by
1395 John Greyndour SEE BELOW.
.1.2.2. (Margaret Joce m. Robert Greyndour [VoG])
.1.2.2.1. Lawrence Greyndour, fl. 1358; m. Margaret heiress of
Abenhall, d. 1375. SEE TABLE C.
.1.2.2.1.1. John Greyndour, d. 1415/6, of Clearwell; m. 1) Marion; m.
by 1395 2) Isabel SEE ABOVE.
.1.2.2.1.1.1. Robert Greyndour (by 1st wife), d. 1443; m. Joan Rugge,
d. 1484; m. bef 1455 John Barre, d. 1483.
.1.2.2.1.1.1.1. Elizabeth, b. c1420, dsp. 1452; m. 1) Reynold West
[Lord la Warre]; m. 2) John Tiptoft [Earl of Worcs]
.1.2.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour, b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]); m.
William Walwyn of Bickerton. SEE TABLE D.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471 (m.
Elizabeth dau. of William Lanks [SGM])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1. Alice Walwyn, d.1518; m. by 1471 1) Thomas Baynham;
m. 2) Sir Walter Dennis. SEE TABLE A.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.1. (Isabel Baynham, d.>24 Jun 1517; m. Giles Brugge of
Cubberley, d. 1 Dec 1511 [CP 3:152, SGM])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth Baynham; m. 1) Robert Russell; 2) Robert
Throckmorton of Coughton [AR7, SGM])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3. Sir Christopher Baynham, heir of his mother, of
Clearwell; (m. Joane Morgan [VoG])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1. Sir George Baynham, d. 1546; (m. Cecily, da. of
John Gage by Philippa Guilford [VoG])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.1. Christopher Baynham, minor 1546, fl. 1555,
dsp.<1558.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.2. Richard Baynham, dsp. 1580.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3. Thomas Baynham, d. 1611; (m. Mary da. of
William Winter [VoG])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1. Cecily Baynham; m. Sir William Throckmorton,
Bt, d. 1628.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
1664.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell,
d. c1680; m. Catherine, fl. 1698.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1.1. Catherine Wild (dau.) & Carolina
Scrymsher (step-dau.) sold Clearwell in 1698
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.2. Joan Baynham; m. John Vaughan.

TABLE C. Abenhall - VCH-Glocs Vol V.

1. William Abenhall, a woodward in 1216 and 1237.
.1. Ralph Abenhall, fl. 1255.
.1. Ralph Abenhall (possibly same as above), d. c1301.
.1.1. John Abenhall, dsp.<1317.
.1.2. Ralph Abenhall, fl.1317, granted Abenhall to his brother Reynold.
.1.3. Reynold Abenhall, d. c1341.
.1.3.1. Ralph Abenhall, d.c1347; (m. Isabel of Dean; m. by 1354 John
Basset [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE A.
.1.3.1.1. Margaret Abenhall, heir, d. 1375, m. Lawrence Greyndour, of
Newland, fl. 1358. SEE TABLE B.

TABLE D. Ruardean (Hathaways Court) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.

1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. c1317.
.1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.<1355.
.1. Walter Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.<1366.
.1. Thomas Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. 1376.
.1.1. Isabel Hathaway, heir of Hathaway in 1382, b. c1366, d.>1415, m.
Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle, d. 1415.
.1.1.1. Richard Walwyn, heir, of Much Marcle.
.1.1.2. (Thomas Walwyn, of Hellens Manor? [BP])
.1.1.2.1. (Margaret Walwin; m. William de Croft, Sheriff of Hereford
[BP])
.1.1.3. (William Walwyn, of Longford, b. c1390, d. 1440; m. Jane/Joan
dau. of Thomas Whitney. [SGM])
.1.2. Sibyl Hathaway, b. c1369, d.<1450; m. Nicholas Hyde.
.1.2.1. Isabel in 1450 quitclaimed lands inherited from Sibyl (mother)
to William Walwyn of Bickerton.
.1.3. Ellen Hathaway, b. c1372, fl. 1445; m. William Walwyn, d.<1445
(of Bickerton, brother of Thomas d. 1415 [SGM, me])
.1.3.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton (m. Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour,
b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]) SEE TABLE B.

Denis Beauregard

Re: Greyndour ancestry for Alice Walwyn, per VCH-Glouc.

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 08 jul 2005 21:42:19

Le 8 Jul 2005 12:52:22 -0700, "Jim Weber" <jim.weber@nwintl.com>
écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:

Ok, I give up. Google screwed up my last message for no good reason
that I can see. If I click on "see more" for my message, then the post
turns out like I posted it. Otherwise nearly the entire posting is
hidden under "show quoted text".

Does anyone have any ideas about what I am doing wrong?

I am not sure what your problem is. It seems at least one of your
attempts is like you want it.

Anyway, some hints:

- avoid using ----------. Try ========= instead or ====8<=====
A line beginning by "-- " is followed by the signature. Many more -
should mean nothing, but let's try to be the safer possible.

- avoid beginning lines with fancy characters, like > | : or . which
may be used to quote.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ http://www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo http://www.sgcf.com

John Brandon

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 jul 2005 21:45:49

He told me his mother made him promise never to reveal his Ancestry.

Maybe she realized that he was an incredibly snobbish and pompous child
from the start, and knew that he would be beaten mercilessly if he
mentioned his relationship to the uppity-ups.

Or maybe she wanted his silence to prevent inconvenient things
happening--for instance, someone looking in Burke's or Debrett's
_Peerage_ or the _Landed Gentry_ and noticing that the descent really
couldn't come about in quite the way claimed.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 jul 2005 22:25:28

Yes, there is indeed an element of fantasy and subterranean dark secrets
in Peter's alleged descent from the Dukes of Devonshire.

Actually, it seems Peter's descent from the Dukes of Devonshire may well
be an illegitimate, or otherwise tainted, descent -- hence Peter's
unwillingness to discuss it.

Peter allegedly descends -- under whatever questionable circumstances --
from William Cavendish [1720-1764], the 4th Duke of Devonshire. He was
Prime Minister 1756-1757 -- as a Whig.

Whether Peter descends from the left side or right side of the blanket
is the issue.

He told me his mother made him promise never to reveal his Ancestry.

Since the Queen Mother is descended from this same 4th Duke of
Devonshire [she was his 3rd Great-Granddaughter] -- Peter Stewart is
allegedly closely related to her [a Fourth or Fifth Cousin] and, of
course, to the Queen.

However, Peter, is loathe to reveal the precise descent -- perhaps for
quite obvious reasons.
----------------------------------------------------------------

New, But Related Subject, Upon Which Stewart Has Posted Malicious
Gibberish:

As to Douglas Richardson, of course I criticized him quite severely in
the past, it's all on the record -- and Douglas then turned over a new
leaf.

I'm always happy to see that -- and if I played some role in Douglas
Richardson's transformation, conversion to virtue and turning towards
the light -- thereby producing a good work product and providing for his
six children -- I'm happy to have been of service.

I'm sure the Good People of Salt Lake City also played an important role
in Douglas's transformation.

Peter Stewart, _au contraire_, has clearly turned to the Dark Side of
the Force.

'Nuff Said.

Deus Vult.

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120832167.917134.241570@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

| >I see you are still fantasising about me and aristocracy. Truly
| >pitiful.
|
| Peter, of course I am utterly fascinated by you and would like to know
| exactly how you descend from the Cavendish/ Devonshires. Any
| information gratefully received!

Ginny Wagner

RE: Greyndour ancestry for Alice Walwyn, per VCH-Glouc.

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 08 jul 2005 22:34:02

Jim,

<Does anyone have any ideas about what I am doing wrong?>

Are you choosing the option for 'text only' in your emails? Looks to me like
the html formatting of automatic outline numbering was used originally which
would be stripped in the usenet's text only ability. Ginny Wagner

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 jul 2005 23:04:43

Indeed.

We note with amusement he has closed up tighter than a good, healthy
Cherrystone clam.

DSH

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120855549.479316.164730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

| >>He told me his mother made him promise never to reveal his Ancestry.
|
| Maybe she realized that he was an incredibly snobbish and pompous
| child from the start, and knew that he would be beaten mercilessly
| if he mentioned his relationship to the uppity-ups.
|
| Or maybe she wanted his silence to prevent inconvenient things
| happening--for instance, someone looking in Burke's or Debrett's
| _Peerage_ or the _Landed Gentry_ and noticing that the descent really
| couldn't come about in quite the way claimed.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 jul 2005 23:20:23

Indeed.

We note with amusement he has closed up tighter than a good, healthy
Cherrystone clam.

Peter Stewart has clearly lit out for the tall grass with his tail
between his legs -- whining.

Peter is decidedly one of the most proficient WHINERS on USENET -- and
stands head and shoulders above anyone else on SGM -- on that score.

Deeeeelightful!

Deus Vult.

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120855549.479316.164730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

| >>He told me his mother made him promise never to reveal his Ancestry.
|
| Maybe she realized that he was an incredibly snobbish and pompous
| child from the start, and knew that he would be beaten mercilessly
| if he mentioned his relationship to the uppity-ups.
|
| Or maybe she wanted his silence to prevent inconvenient things
| happening--for instance, someone looking in Burke's or Debrett's
| _Peerage_ or the _Landed Gentry_ and noticing that the descent really
| couldn't come about in quite the way claimed.

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 08 jul 2005 23:38:03

Dear Tony ~

The document I produced from the Lettres Communes of Pope Urbain V
identifies the wife of Niccolo Ursini, Count of Nola, in 1363 as being
Countess Johanna (Latin for Giovanna or Joan). Johanna was then alive.


I believe a full translation of the Latin text would prove helpful to
you. Perhaps one of our newsgroup scholars can provide you an exact
translation. Anyone want to help Tony out?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

"Tony Hoskins" wrote:
Dear Doug,

Thank you very much for the citation to the letters of Pope Urban V. I
will need to look into this document further to ensure 1) that it refers
to a current (1363) matter and 2) whether, if indeed current, it might
be an error, referring to the Count of Nola's earlier wife Giovanna/
Garizie/ Gersende de/di Sabran(o), or 3) that indeed in 1363 Giovanna
(et var.) was still Niccolo's wife.

That Niccolo's Sabran wife is consistently repeated as Sueva's mother
in almost all sources I've encountered is clear, but Shama's repeated
statements sub Orsini and de Balzo to the contrary - that she was rather
the child of Niccolo by his 2nd wife Maria del Balzo - certainly
warrants investigation of his sources.

Of interest, too, would be the fact that Niccolo Orsini, Conte di
Nola's would-be 2nd wife Maria del Balzo would be his first cousin.
Dispensations to establish date of marriage, etc.?

Below, please find three pertinent entries from Davide Shama's
site<www.sardimpex.com> stating Sueva Orsini, Duchessa d'Andria's
mother to have been Maria del Balzo.

Again, many thanks for the courtesy of your informative and kind
reply.

Tony Hoskins


**ORSINI**

K1. Nicola (* 27-8-1331 + testamento: 14-2-1399, morto poco dopo a
Nola), 3° Conte di Nola)

a) = Napoli 1352/1355 Giovanna (o Garizia) de Sabran, figlia di
Guglielmo
Conte di Ariano e di Francesca dei Conti di Celano

b) = ca. 1359 Maria del Balzo, figlia di Raimondo Conte di Soleto e di
Isabella d'Eppes (d'Appia) (* 1340/1341 + ?) (v.)

L1. (ex 1°) Beatrice (* 1352/1355 ca. + ?), Nobile Romana.
= ca. 1368/1370 Luigi Antonio della Ratta 3° Conte di Caserta (v.)

L2. (ex 2°) Roberto (* 1360 ca. + ca. 1400), 4° Conte di Nola
= 1378 ca. Margherita Sanseverino, figlia di Ruggero 2° Conte di
Tricarico
e Altomonte

L3. (ex 2°) Sveva, Nobile Romana.= 8-12-1381 Francesco I del Balzo 1°
Duca d'Andria

L4. (ex 2°) Raimondo detto "Raimondello" Orsini del Balzo (+
Taranto
17-1-1406), Conte di Soleto (occupata nel 1382), Duca di Benevento, 1°
Principe di Taranto, Duca di Bari. = 1384 ca. Maria d'Enghien Contessa
di Lecce


**DEL BALZO, entry # 1**

J2. (ex 2°) Francesco I (+ testamento: 23-4-1422), 2° Conte d'Andria,
1° Duca d'Andria dal 2-1351,

a) = (contratto: 1350) Luisa Sanseverino, forse figlia di Tommaso
6° Conte di Marsico e di Sibilla Pipino dei Conte di Minerbino (+
1351/1352)

b) = 1352 Margherita d'Angiò dei Principi di Taranto, Duchessa
di Bari, figlia di Filippo II Principe di Taranto e di Caterina di
Valois Imperatrice titolare di Costantinopoli (* 1325 + Napoli 1380)
(v.), già divorziata da Edoardo I
Balliol Re di Scozia;

c) = 8-12-1381 Sveva Orsini, figlia di Nicola Conte di Nola e di
Maria del Balzo dei Conti di Soleto (v.)


**DEL BALZO, entry # 2**

J1. Raimondo (+ Napoli 5-8-1375), Signore di Soleto investito nel 1329
e 1° Conte al 1352,

a) = ca. 1331 Margherita d'Aquino 4° Contessa d'Ascoli,
figlia di Cristoforo II 2° Conte di Ascoli e di Teodora Sanseverino dei
Conti di Marsico (+ post 6-3-1339/ante 6-12-1339) (v.), già vedova di
Riccardo da Marzano Conte di Squillace;

b) = tra 6-12-1339 e 15-11-1340 Isabelle d'Eppes (d'Appia), forse
figlia del Cavaliere Jean d'Eppes (+ Napoli 14-7-1375), già vedova di
Adinolfo
d'Aquino Conte di Belcastro e di Drogone di Merleto.

K1. (ex 1°) Giovanni (* 1332 + 20-4-1338).

K2. (ex 2°) Maria (* 1341 ca. + ?), erede della contea di Soleto.
= ca. 1359 Nicola Orsini 3° Conte di Nola

K3. (ex 2°) Altri 3 figli morti infanti

J2. Sveva
= (dote: 400 onze) 1330 Roberto Orsini Conte di Nola

J3. Beatrice
= Francesco della Ratta 2° Conte di Caserta

-----



Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 00:32:49

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120855549.479316.164730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
He told me his mother made him promise never to reveal his Ancestry.

Maybe she realized that he was an incredibly snobbish and pompous child
from the start, and knew that he would be beaten mercilessly if he
mentioned his relationship to the uppity-ups.

Or maybe she wanted his silence to prevent inconvenient things
happening--for instance, someone looking in Burke's or Debrett's
_Peerage_ or the _Landed Gentry_ and noticing that the descent really
couldn't come about in quite the way claimed.

I see that Brandon is too idiotic to shut up on matters that he knows
nothing about.

I have never claimed ANYTHING at all about my descent from the Cavensidh
family except to confirm that this exists after Hines got it egregiously
wrong.

I have repeatedly said that it means NOTHING to me anyway. It is remote, and
I have far more interesting ancestors than those.

And Brandon ought to know, since he is fixated on British aristocracy, that
linkages through females are not traced far in those works. My surname is
not Cavendish, and he will be wasting his time looking for an agnatic or
close cognatic descent. The link goes through several other familes.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 00:34:24

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ooBze.484$4H2.2681@eagle.america.net...

<baldersnip>

New, But Related Subject, Upon Which Stewart Has Posted Malicious
Gibberish:

You wrote it, Hines.

The archive has many such nuggets yet to be unearthed.

They will be....

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 00:36:45

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dZBze.492$4H2.2814@eagle.america.net...
Indeed.

We note with amusement he has closed up tighter than a good, healthy
Cherrystone clam.

I was never open about this - it is of no more interest than a single
element of the 18th-century ancestry of anyone else on this newsgroup, and I
do not intend to waste bandwidth on it. I never did - that was yor work, and
Brandon's. All aquiver with excitement at a ducal title, wetting yourselves
to find out details of a huge NOTHING.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 00:38:28

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1120862283.797104.126250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dear Tony ~

The document I produced from the Lettres Communes of Pope Urbain V
identifies the wife of Niccolo Ursini, Count of Nola, in 1363 as being
Countess Johanna (Latin for Giovanna or Joan). Johanna was then alive.

I believe a full translation of the Latin text would prove helpful to
you.

It wouldn't - clearly you can't get even the gist of it if you think so.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 00:57:51

For his next trick Hines will swim UP the Niagara Falls.

Peter Stewart


"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hoEze.501$4H2.2788@eagle.america.net...
I stand by everything I have written on this matter.

I say again, for the benefit of the Poor Reader and Meretricious
Poster -- Pogue Stewart:
----------------------------

New, But Related Subject, Upon Which Pogue Stewart Has Posted Malicious
Gibberish:

As to Douglas Richardson, of course I criticized him quite severely in
the past, it's all on the record -- and Douglas then turned over a new
leaf.

I'm always happy to see that -- and if I played some role in Douglas
Richardson's transformation, conversion to virtue and turning towards
the light -- thereby producing a good work product and providing for his
six children -- I'm happy to have been of service.

I'm sure the Good People of Salt Lake City also played an important role
in Douglas's transformation.

Peter Stewart, _au contraire_, has clearly turned to the Dark Side of
the Force.

'Nuff Said.

Deus Vult.

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 01:20:01

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hoEze.501$4H2.2788@eagle.america.net...

<snip>

As to Douglas Richardson, of course I criticized him quite severely in
the past, it's all on the record -- and Douglas then turned over a new
leaf.

All that has changed since November 2003, as we all know, is the attitude of
Hines, because in the interval he was caught out and humiliated in his deep
ignorance of Latin. This reversal of his own making demolished his
longstanding pose as a man of learning and high cultivation (a fiiction of
the ill-educated anyway, since Latin is just another language, that was once
a vulgar tongue, not rocket science).

Hines subscribes to the base, self-serving and egocentric principle of "my
enemy's enemy is my friend". That led him to try mending his bridges with
Richardson, but the latter is not quite a stupid as Hines thinks and hasn't
yet fallen off this rickety new pontoon into the river of poison that roils
around his former critic, the dishonest and vituperative D. (for "Dayne")
Spencer Hines.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 01:34:35

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wPEze.503$4H2.2983@eagle.america.net...

<snip>

He ought to tell us about the ancestor that lost all the Family Money on
the horses too.

That was ME, and I'm not my own ancestor. Hines knows NOTHING about it and
yet makes wild assertions.

Hell, Pogue Stewart is about a Fifth Cousin of Queen Elizabeth II. I
kid you not.

Closer, and it means nothing to me or, I'm quite confident in saying, to
her. She must have thousands of relatives within this degree.

And you think he's not proud of that -- because of all the poor-mouthing
and backing and filling he has been doing here lately?

Why on earth should I be proud of that? It reflects no credit on me in any
way. The queen has disreputable cousins - some would say even children - and
descends no more distantly than from our common ancestors from other people
who were tavern-keepers, trademen and such. She is not a demi-godess, beyond
the fevered snobbery of Hines and Brandon, just flesh and (to some of us
closer, to all others more distantly) blood.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 01:37:12

Hilarious!

First Pogue Stewart runs for the tall grass.

Then he pauses in his headlong flight to throw two more grenades at
Douglas Richardson, one at Spencer Hines ---- and three Red Herrings at
the newsgroup -- hoping to divert attention from his sorry plight.

Douglas has done nothing wrong. He's just had two books published which
Pogue Stewart hasn't even SEEN, much less READ, but is determined to
CONDEMN.

Pogues On The Run!

The last thing Peter wants to do is actually show us his descent from
William Cavendish, 4th Duke of Devonshire, several other Prime Ministers
and nobles -- and the Stewarts -- because THAT would let the cat out of
the bag -- several cats.

Deeeeelightful! As Theodore Roosevelt would say.

Deus Vult.

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]

"Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur. Odi profanum vulgus et arceo."

Quintus Aurelius Stultus [33 B.C. - 42 A.D.]

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat
opus.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 01:49:25

I stand by everything I have written on this matter.

I say again, for the benefit of the Poor Reader and Meretricious
Poster -- Pogue Stewart:
----------------------------

New, But Related Subject, Upon Which Pogue Stewart Has Posted Malicious
Gibberish:

As to Douglas Richardson, of course I criticized him quite severely in
the past, it's all on the record -- and Douglas then turned over a new
leaf.

I'm always happy to see that -- and if I played some role in Douglas
Richardson's transformation, conversion to virtue and turning towards
the light -- thereby producing a good work product and providing for his
six children -- I'm happy to have been of service.

I'm sure the Good People of Salt Lake City also played an important role
in Douglas's transformation.

Peter Stewart, _au contraire_, has clearly turned to the Dark Side of
the Force.

'Nuff Said.

Deus Vult.

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Leo

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av Leo » 09 jul 2005 01:53:02

Isn't it about time Spencer Hines revealed his own glorious ancestry? He has
been playing coy about his own ancestry for years.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes of
Devonshire


"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dZBze.492$4H2.2814@eagle.america.net...
Indeed.

We note with amusement he has closed up tighter than a good, healthy
Cherrystone clam.

I was never open about this - it is of no more interest than a single
element of the 18th-century ancestry of anyone else on this newsgroup, and
I do not intend to waste bandwidth on it. I never did - that was yor work,
and Brandon's. All aquiver with excitement at a ducal title, wetting
yourselves to find out details of a huge NOTHING.

Peter Stewart


Tony Hoskins

Re: Pronunciation of 'de Bohun'

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 09 jul 2005 01:53:02

If, as some have claimed, "Mohun" could have been prounounced "moon", so
therefore "Bohun", "boon"?


"Todd A. Farmerie" <farmerie@interfold.com> 07/08/05 04:38PM
graham@gmilne.demon.co.uk wrote:
I have heard a number of ways of pronouncing 'Bohun' including
'boon'
and 'bowen'. Today, I happened to meet a French lady from Normandy
who
was running a market stall. I wrote the words 'de Bohun' on my
newspaper and asked her how they pronounced this in Normandy. She
said
'de bo-hun' with the 'bo' pronounced 'bow' and the 'hun' prounounced
as
in 'Hun'.

Unfortunately, the question is not so simple as this. It is likely
that
a modern Frenchwoman and a modern Englishman would give you different
answers, both of which would differ from the answer you would get from
a
12th century Anglo-Norman baron.

taf

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Pronunciation of 'de Bohun'

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 01:55:52

Bingo!

SOME folks definitely pronounce BOHUN as BOONE [BOON].

DSH

""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s2ceaf56.059@CENTRAL_SVR2...

| If, as some have claimed, "Mohun" could have been pronounced "moon",
| so therefore "Bohun", "boon"?

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 02:16:09

Nonsense, Leo!

My ancestry is by no means "glorious".

Descents from Edward III are a dime a dozen.

Tens of millions, perhaps hundreds of millions, of us have such
descents. I have pointed that out on NUMEROUS occasions. Check The
Archives.

No 18th Century Dukes or British Prime Ministers in my Ancestry. Thank
God!

My ancestors had the Good Sense to leave Britain -- three and some
almost four hundred years ago -- and come to America -- God Bless 'Em.

A slice of them were French Huguenots -- so they were glad to see the
last of the tyrannical Louis XIV and his ilk as well.

However, Pogue Stewart is descended from at least three British Prime
Ministers, a gaggle of Dukes and Duchesses, Edward IV, Charles II and
Henry VII ---- by either the left or right side of the blanket.

But he's afraid to tell us how -- for fear of what will indubitably be
revealed.

He ought to tell us about the ancestor that lost all the Family Money on
the horses too.

Hell, Pogue Stewart is about a Fifth Cousin of Queen Elizabeth II. I
kid you not.

And you think he's not proud of that -- because of all the poor-mouthing
and backing and filling he has been doing here lately?

Hilarious!

Think Again....

DSH

""Leo"" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000d01c58418$13b110e0$0300a8c0@Toshiba...

| Isn't it about time Spencer Hines revealed his own glorious ancestry?
| He has been playing coy about his own ancestry for years.

Leo

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av Leo » 09 jul 2005 02:49:01

Playing hide and seek as you have, without going into details is very
different from Peter Stewart who as far as I know has never referred
publicly to historical people as cousins or uncles. Tantalising people with
claimed descents from royalty is making ones ancestors glorious, intended or
not.

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes of
Devonshire


Nonsense, Leo!

My ancestry is by no means "glorious".

Descents from Edward III are a dime a dozen.

Tens of millions, perhaps hundreds of millions, of us have such
descents. I have pointed that out on NUMEROUS occasions. Check The
Archives.

No 18th Century Dukes or British Prime Ministers in my Ancestry. Thank
God!

My ancestors had the Good Sense to leave Britain -- three and some
almost four hundred years ago -- and come to America -- God Bless 'Em.

A slice of them were French Huguenots -- so they were glad to see the
last of the tyrannical Louis XIV and his ilk as well.

However, Pogue Stewart is descended from at least three British Prime
Ministers, a gaggle of Dukes and Duchesses, Edward IV, Charles II and
Henry VII ---- by either the left or right side of the blanket.

But he's afraid to tell us how -- for fear of what will indubitably be
revealed.

He ought to tell us about the ancestor that lost all the Family Money on
the horses too.

Hell, Pogue Stewart is about a Fifth Cousin of Queen Elizabeth II. I
kid you not.

And you think he's not proud of that -- because of all the poor-mouthing
and backing and filling he has been doing here lately?

Hilarious!

Think Again....

DSH

""Leo"" <leo@home.netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:000d01c58418$13b110e0$0300a8c0@Toshiba...

| Isn't it about time Spencer Hines revealed his own glorious ancestry?
| He has been playing coy about his own ancestry for years.


norenxaq

Re: Pronunciation of 'de Bohun'

Legg inn av norenxaq » 09 jul 2005 02:50:02

""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s2ceaf56.059@CENTRAL_SVR2...

| If, as some have claimed, "Mohun" could have been pronounced "moon",
| so therefore "Bohun", "boon"?

which leads me to wonder if this pronunciation is a major part of the
claim by some of Daniel Boone's descendants of a de Bohun ancestry

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 03:43:37

Hines evidently goes through life imagining that everyone must have guilty
or shamelful secrets to hide.

I don't.

But I can see how his grotesque self-obsession leads him to project this
twisted idea onto the world at large.

Peter Stewart


"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tNGze.509$4H2.2952@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!

NOW Pogue Stewart tells us HE is the one who lost the Family Fortune on
the HORSES -- after dropping out of OXFORD -- because he was severely
BRAIN-DAMAGED as a result of having fallen off his motorcycle while
DRUNK -- and banging his wee NOODLE against the cobblestones.

Vanessa, I tell you, it just doesn't get any better than this.

The Idle Australian Rich, Close Cousin To The Queen -- Reduced To
Pratfall!!!

Abundanza!

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Pronunciation of 'de Bohun'

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 04:23:38

Yep... <G>

DSH

"norenxaq" <norenxaq@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:42CF1EDA.B4FD858E@san.rr.com...

| > ""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
| > news:s2ceaf56.059@CENTRAL_SVR2...
| >
| > | If, as some have claimed, "Mohun" could have been pronounced
"moon",
| > | so therefore "Bohun", "boon"?
|
| which leads me to wonder if this pronunciation is a major part of the
| claim by some of Daniel Boone's descendants of a de Bohun ancestry

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 04:32:13

Hilarious!

NOW Pogue Stewart tells us HE is the one who lost the Family Fortune on
the HORSES -- after dropping out of OXFORD -- because he was severely
BRAIN-DAMAGED as a result of having fallen off his motorcycle while
DRUNK -- and banging his wee NOODLE against the cobblestones.

Vanessa, I tell you, it just doesn't get any better than this.

The Idle Australian Rich, Close Cousin To The Queen -- Reduced To
Pratfall!!!

Abundanza!

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 05:07:48

Hilarious!

NOW Pogue Stewart tells us HE is the one who lost the Family Fortune on
the HORSES -- after dropping out of OXFORD -- because he was severely
BRAIN-DAMAGED as a result of having fallen off his motorcycle while
DRUNK -- and banging his wee NOODLE against the cobblestones.

We see the results of that unfortunate event right here on SGM every
day.

Delirious!

Vanessa, I tell you, it just doesn't get any better than this.

The Idle Australian Rich, Close Cousin To The Queen -- Reduced To
Pratfall!!!

Abundanza!

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor.

Ken Ozanne

Re: Anglo-Saxon web site

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 09 jul 2005 05:16:03

Dora,
I went to Cerdic and found that I could see, with scrolling, all the
C's in the left hand column. Near enough to browsing for me.

I didn't see a means of searching by place, but, if the database is
truly orthogonal, it should not be difficult to provide one. However, it
might be quite difficult to link up places of that time period to modern
place names. You might care to suggest this feature to the authors.
Certainly the work is ongoing.

This is a most significant site and I thank you, Simon, for bringing it
to my attention. As I understand it, it is intended to be complete, which is
a truly wonderful thing. I also think it will take me quite a while to
understand fully just what it does and doesn't do.

Among the things that I don't think it does is to provide value
judgments on the documents it mentions.

Best,
Ken


From: "Dora Smith" <villandra@austin.rr.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:16:12 -0500
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon web site

How are you supposed to search it for a name if you don't know exactly how
the name was spelled? I don't see a browse feature, and there is no
capacity for a soundex search.

How am I supposed to know how the ancestors of people named Raymond spelled
their name in 1100?

There should also be a way to see all the people listed for a given place...
since in all probability, these people weren't called Raymond at all!

I've done my best to be polite.... no swear words... no ... heck...


----- Original Message -----
From: "fairthorne" <fairthorne@breathe.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:08 AM
Subject: Anglo-Saxon web site


Hi Folks

A bit outside the range of this newsgroup, some news which I meant to pass
on a month ago but forgot.
Now it has been mentioned in the press and is up and running

http://www.pase.ac.uk

is a database of every single Anglo-Saxon person mentioned in contemporary
records

It is the product of a collaboration with KCL (King's College London) and
Cambridge, and received a grant of £500,000 from the Arts and Humanities
Research Board

Full article about it is in current Times Higher Education Supplement (8
July page 9)

Would be interested to hear what you all think of it, and if no one
objects
I'll pass the polite comments (of course all comments in this newsgroup
are
polite) to Jinty Nelson. Genealogy was not a use they had in mind when
designing the database so it do everything we'd like.

Cheers

Simon

(who by coincidence lectures part-time at KCL, but in Maths not History)

David Teague

Re: Pronunciation of 'de Bohun'

Legg inn av David Teague » 09 jul 2005 05:27:01

FWIW, I was enrolled in the Centre for Medieval Studies at the University of
York twenty years ago, and the only pronunciation for "de Bohun" I ever
heard there was "de boon" -- and that from the Brits. We Americans, by and
large, had no idea how to pronounce it.


David Teague




From: norenxaq To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Pronunciation
of 'de Bohun' Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:49:05 -0700

""Tony Hoskins"" wrote in message > news:s2ceaf56.059@CENTRAL_SVR2...
| If, as some have claimed, "Mohun" could have been pronounced "moon",
| so therefore "Bohun", "boon"?

which leads me to wonder if this pronunciation is a major part of the
claim by some of Daniel Boone's descendants of a de Bohun ancestry

Peter Stewart

Re: 450 Sheep Jump To Their Deaths In Turkey -- 1000 Late-Co

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 05:52:19

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:GpIze.525$4H2.2928@eagle.america.net...
Damn, they act just like "Liberals"!

DSH
------------------------------

"450 Sheep Jump to Their Deaths in Turkey"

Perhaps none of them could answer for what they were thinking in November
2003, or chopping & changing since then, and considered it more honourable
to die than to lie.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: 450 Sheep Jump To Their Deaths In Turkey -- 1000 Late-Co

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 06:24:48

Damn, they act just like "Liberals"!

DSH
------------------------------

"450 Sheep Jump to Their Deaths in Turkey"

The Associated Press
Friday, July 8, 2005

"ISTANBUL, Turkey -- First one sheep jumped to its death. Then stunned
Turkish shepherds, who had left the herd to graze while they had
breakfast, watched as nearly 1,500 others followed, each leaping off the
same cliff, Turkish media reported.

In the end, 450 dead animals lay on top of one another in a billowy
white pile, the Aksam newspaper said. Those who jumped later were saved
as the pile got higher and the fall more cushioned, Aksam reported.

"There's nothing we can do. They're all wasted," Nevzat Bayhan, a
member of one of 26 families whose sheep were grazing together in the
herd, was quoted as saying by Aksam.

The estimated loss to families in the town of Gevas, located in Van
province in eastern Turkey, tops $100,000, a significant amount of money
in a country where average GDP per head is around $2,700.

"Every family had an average of 20 sheep," Aksam quoted another
villager, Abdullah Hazar as saying. "But now only a few families have
sheep left. It's going to be hard for us."
-----------------------

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

D. Spencer Hines

Re: A Sensible Voice On The Left

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 07:50:52

"Bin Laden's whole game plan is to turn the people of the democratic
world against their governments.

He thinks democracies are weak because their people, who are more easily
frightened than their governments, can bring those governments down.

He doesn't understand that this flexibility -- and this trust -- are why
democracies will live, while he will die.

Many of us didn't vote for Bush's government or Blair's. But we're
loyal to them, in part because we were given a voice in choosing them.

And if we don't like our governments, we can vote them out. We can't
vote out terrorists. We can only kill them."

William Saletan -- _Slate_
----------------------

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 09 jul 2005 10:26:49

Peter Stewart wrote:

It wouldn't - clearly you can't get even the gist of it if you think so.

Peter Stewart

No, Peter, you are once wrong again. Gong! Please stop
misrepresenting me.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 09 jul 2005 10:33:16

Peter Stewart wrote:

It wouldn't - clearly you can't get even the gist of it if you think so.

Peter Stewart

No, Peter, you are wrong once again. Gong! Please stop
misrepresenting me. Stick to the facts. I know the gist of the Latin
text I posted.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Pronunciation of 'de Bohun'

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 09 jul 2005 11:01:09

Dear David ~

The Bohun surname is often spelled Boun in medieval records.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

"David Teague" wrote:
FWIW, I was enrolled in the Centre for Medieval Studies at the University of
York twenty years ago, and the only pronunciation for "de Bohun" I ever
heard there was "de boon" -- and that from the Brits. We Americans, by and
large, had no idea how to pronounce it.


David Teague




From: norenxaq To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Pronunciation
of 'de Bohun' Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:49:05 -0700

""Tony Hoskins"" wrote in message > news:s2ceaf56.059@CENTRAL_SVR2...
| If, as some have claimed, "Mohun" could have been pronounced "moon",
| so therefore "Bohun", "boon"?

which leads me to wonder if this pronunciation is a major part of the
claim by some of Daniel Boone's descendants of a de Bohun ancestry

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 11:09:52

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1120901208.998175.15180@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:

It wouldn't - clearly you can't get even the gist of it if you think so.

Peter Stewart

No, Peter, you are once wrong again. Gong! Please stop
misrepresenting me.

What on earth do you think you're talking about? The text has NO
genealogical significance beyond the date and the names, that's ALL there is
to it.

If you want to maintain that the whole passage has some value for the
purpose, TRANSLATE IT.

But whatever mish-mash of incomprehension you come up with, I have NOT
misrepresented you at all - you spoke from total ignorance, without the
faintest clue what the Latin meant, If you had, you would never have
bothered to transcribe it all in the first place.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 11:11:10

Are you now trying for a Hines safety measure, posting duplicates hoping to
slip the odd unanswered message into the archive?

Peter Stewart

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1120901596.036308.253110@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Peter Stewart wrote:

It wouldn't - clearly you can't get even the gist of it if you think so.

Peter Stewart

No, Peter, you are wrong once again. Gong! Please stop
misrepresenting me. Stick to the facts. I know the gist of the Latin
text I posted.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 09 jul 2005 11:24:00

Peter Stewart wrote:
Are you now trying for a Hines safety measure, posting duplicates hoping to
slip the odd unanswered message into the archive?

Peter Stewart


Dear Peter ~

This is a new feature of google. If you find a mistake in your post,
you can remove the post, and replace it with a corrected version. Only
the corrected version remains in the archives. If this confused you,
I apologize.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 jul 2005 11:35:20

Douglas Richardson wrote:

This is a new feature of google. If you find a mistake in your post,
you can remove the post, and replace it with a corrected version.
Only the corrected version remains in the archives. If this
confused you, I apologize.

But it's you who were confused: your entire post was a sorry mistake,
and you failed to correct it by adding to it.

You are of course lying about the point at issue. You don't know the
gist of the passage you posted or even you would have had the nous to
shut up about its alleged, and illusory, significance.

Peter Stewart

Vickie Elam White

Re: 450 Sheep Jump To Their Deaths In Turkey -- 1000 Late-Co

Legg inn av Vickie Elam White » 09 jul 2005 15:14:27

And you felt the need to post this on a
medieval genealogy newsgroup because ...


Vickie Elam White

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:GpIze.525$4H2.2928@eagle.america.net...
Damn, they act just like "Liberals"!

DSH
------------------------------

"450 Sheep Jump to Their Deaths in Turkey"

The Associated Press
Friday, July 8, 2005

"ISTANBUL, Turkey -- First one sheep jumped to its death. Then
stunned
Turkish shepherds, who had left the herd to graze while they had
breakfast, watched as nearly 1,500 others followed, each leaping
off the
same cliff, Turkish media reported.

In the end, 450 dead animals lay on top of one another in a
billowy
white pile, the Aksam newspaper said. Those who jumped later
were saved
as the pile got higher and the fall more cushioned, Aksam
reported.

"There's nothing we can do. They're all wasted," Nevzat Bayhan,
a
member of one of 26 families whose sheep were grazing together in
the
herd, was quoted as saying by Aksam.

The estimated loss to families in the town of Gevas, located in
Van
province in eastern Turkey, tops $100,000, a significant amount
of money
in a country where average GDP per head is around $2,700.

"Every family had an average of 20 sheep," Aksam quoted another
villager, Abdullah Hazar as saying. "But now only a few families
have
sheep left. It's going to be hard for us."
-----------------------

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Descent From The Cavendish Family/ Dukes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 19:39:17

Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!

NOW Peter 'Pogue' Stewart tells us HE is the one who lost the Stewart
Family Fortune on the HORSES -- after dropping out of OXFORD -- because
he was severely BRAIN-DAMAGED as a result of having fallen off his
motorcycle while DRUNK -- and banging his wee, clogged NOODLE against
the cobblestones.

We see the results of that unfortunate "accident" right here on SGM
every day.

Delirious!

Veronique, I tell you, it just shouldn't get any better than this -- yet
it always does.

The Idle Australian Rich, Fourth Cousin To Queen Elizabeth II [Or
Perhaps Even Closer] -- Reduced To Egregious Pratfall & Disgrace!!!

Abundanza!

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor.

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 09 jul 2005 19:40:04

Peter Stewart wrote:
Douglas Richardson wrote:

This is a new feature of google. If you find a mistake in your post,
you can remove the post, and replace it with a corrected version.
Only the corrected version remains in the archives. If this
confused you, I apologize.

But it's you who were confused: your entire post was a sorry mistake,
and you failed to correct it by adding to it.

You are of course lying about the point at issue. You don't know the
gist of the passage you posted or even you would have had the nous to
shut up about its alleged, and illusory, significance.

Peter Stewart

Dear Peter ~

I understand the gist of the Latin passage I posted. Please stick to
the facts.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net


Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 jul 2005 20:44:22

Stewart doesn't like FACTS -- because they consistently cut against him.

Such as the FACT of his having lost the Family Fortune on the horses.

DSH

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1120934404.879107.68150@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

| I understand the gist of the Latin passage I posted. Please stick to
| the facts.
|
| Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon web site

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 jul 2005 22:18:02

In a message dated 7/9/2005 5:39:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
villandra@austin.rr.com writes:


I expected a link to where to go to browse, a link for locality, and a link
on the search page for approximate spellings. Silly logical me.

There doesn't seem to be a way to do approximate spellings
so someone like me types in Aelfwulf and gets nothing.

But if I type in Lincolnshire or something like that I can get to a page of
Bishops, etc and then copy and paste a name back into the search engine and
then see every item using that proper name. It's a bit round-about, there's
probably a better way to do it.

Will Johnson

Tony Hoskins

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 09 jul 2005 22:32:02

Thanks so much, Doug. Your generous and helpful input is greatly
appreciated.

Am saying goodbye again to GEN-MED. A week or so ago, ever hopeful, I
re-subscribed, wishing to raise the matter of Sueva Orsini's mother for
discussion. But, I found (as in the past) that little to no response
(save for your kind interest) on serious matters is elicited, while
being overwhelmed by an endless deluge of neurotic, internecine, and
malicious postings, which apparently (most sadly) have become the
hallmarks of this list. There must be healthier venues. I hope to find
them.

Again, thanks for your interest and very helpful input.

Sincerely,

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 jul 2005 00:50:35

As I said, I have no shameful secrets. The events that Hines alludes to are
not even remotely as they might appear from his moronic, fact-free
gossip-mongering.

When it comes to the Latin passage that Richardson posted, and that he and
Hines cam't begin to understand, Richardon said to Tony "I believe a full
translation of the Latin text would prove helpful to you."

If he had the faintest idea what this contained, he COULD NOT maintain that.

If these two fools wish to do so, they should justify the claim. No-one else
is obliged to help them out.

Peter Stewart



"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:s%Uze.561$4H2.3359@eagle.america.net...
Stewart doesn't like FACTS -- because they consistently cut against him.

Such as the FACT of his having lost the Family Fortune on the horses.

DSH

royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1120934404.879107.68150@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

| I understand the gist of the Latin passage I posted. Please stick to
| the facts.
|
| Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Ravyn, Lady Heresy

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av Ravyn, Lady Heresy » 10 jul 2005 01:32:57

yeah I know Spencer. it really doesn't matter to me except for the
Porphyria thing. he was an interesting character--I had no idea until I
started checking up on him. I don't think my grandmother knew anything
about it--I think those papers were from my grandfather, who died in
1969 and I doubt she even looked at them. There was a small painted
portrait of Rupert on an oval that seemed to be porcelain, but my aunt
got it--because one of my cousins looked like his twin!
well anyway I was just responding to an old post about Porphyria, I
don't have alot of hope in proving any bastard connection. The dates
seem to be right tho and I guess it is as much a possibility as
anything else.
Ravyn

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 10 jul 2005 01:41:13

You do realize, of course, that Prince Rupert of the Rhine [1619-1682]
never married, but left two bastard children.

So, any descent your grandmother and you might conceivably have from him
would be, at best, a Bastard Descent.

However, Prince Rupert was quite a romantic figure and I imagine your
grandmother was deucedly charmed by him and his legend -- and dearly
wanted to be descended from him -- even via a Bastard Descent.

Then there are Rupert's Balls, also known as Rupert's Drops. You'll
want to investigate those in depth.

Good Hunting!

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Ravyn, Lady Heresy" <LadyLvsNyt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1120949209.086808.11920@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

<baldersnip>

Peter Stewart

Re: Sueva (Orsini), Duchessa d'Andria's mother

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 jul 2005 01:42:16

O dear....Tony Hoskins was saved from swallowing yet another a raw red
herring from Richardson, and he goes off thanking the fishmonger at the
expense of the food inspector!

Peter Stewart


""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s2cfd15e.000@CENTRAL_SVR2...
Thanks so much, Doug. Your generous and helpful input is greatly
appreciated.

Am saying goodbye again to GEN-MED. A week or so ago, ever hopeful, I
re-subscribed, wishing to raise the matter of Sueva Orsini's mother for
discussion. But, I found (as in the past) that little to no response
(save for your kind interest) on serious matters is elicited, while
being overwhelmed by an endless deluge of neurotic, internecine, and
malicious postings, which apparently (most sadly) have become the
hallmarks of this list. There must be healthier venues. I hope to find
them.

Again, thanks for your interest and very helpful input.

Sincerely,

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Taking Out The Taliban Trash

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 10 jul 2005 02:28:41

Yes, interesting.

Four different kills in 70 seconds? -- Or is this Non-Real-Time, spliced
video?

Suggestion:

Don't call a video "NastyMeds" if you want people to watch it -- people
will think you put a virus or Trojan in it.

This video was clean.

Mors Hostibus indeed.

DSH

"Mors Hostibus" <morshostibus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:T%Yze.2350$Xp6.658@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...

| The vid was stripped off.
|
| I posted it on http://www.YouSendIt.com
|
| http://s44.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=318G ... G4L93S80J0
|
| Let me know if you get it or not.
|
| Mors Hostibus
|
| "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| news:TIYze.577$4H2.3438@eagle.america.net...

| > Where is this video of the sniper at work and play?
| >
| > DSH

Douglas Richardson royala

Constant misrepresentations

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 10 jul 2005 03:50:22

Dear Mr. Stewart ~

Please refrain from the constant misrepresentations you continue make
about Mr. Hoskins, Dr. David Kelley, FASG, or others.

Thank you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson

Peter Stewart wrot
O dear....Tony Hoskins was saved from swallowing yet another a raw red
herring from Richardson, and he goes off thanking the fishmonger at the
expense of the food inspector!

Peter Stewart


""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s2cfd15e.000@CENTRAL_SVR2...
Thanks so much, Doug. Your generous and helpful input is greatly
appreciated.

Am saying goodbye again to GEN-MED. A week or so ago, ever hopeful, I
re-subscribed, wishing to raise the matter of Sueva Orsini's mother for
discussion. But, I found (as in the past) that little to no response
(save for your kind interest) on serious matters is elicited, while
being overwhelmed by an endless deluge of neurotic, internecine, and
malicious postings, which apparently (most sadly) have become the
hallmarks of this list. There must be healthier venues. I hope to find
them.

Again, thanks for your interest and very helpful input.

Sincerely,

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Anglo-Saxon web site

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 jul 2005 04:04:01

Hello Simon. I have just used the new PASE web site. It is fantastic! I
have questioned a reference regarding an Anglo-Saxon charter 28 May 934 since I
found the reference many years ago. The primary sources have been difficult
to locate, but in 10 minutes, I was able to clarifiy the information and change
some thoughts which I had incorrect. What a wonderful source. Please thank
those for all their labors and I trust this will be a success for all those
involved. Jerry. The Jones Genealogist. USA.

Peter Stewart

Re: Constant misrepresentations

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 jul 2005 04:27:49

<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1120963822.539178.287350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dear Mr. Stewart ~

Please refrain from the constant misrepresentations you continue make
about Mr. Hoskins, Dr. David Kelley, FASG, or others.

Thank you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson

Substantiate your charges and I will do as you ask.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 10 jul 2005 06:47:17

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0n2Ae.607$4H2.3498@eagle.america.net...
Peter 'Pogue' Stewart has several Bastard Descents from King Charles II,
of which he is inordinately proud.

Hilarious!

But then, that's what makes Peter such **Delightful Entertainment**.

How Sweet It Is!

Don't waste your sympathy on Pogue Stewart with his Bastard Descents
from King Charles II [Reigned:1660-1685]

No-one has done so.

Tens if not hundreds of thousands of people have known lines of descent from
Charles II, many - but far from all - included in various rather pompous
works of reference, mostly on self-report for reasons of vanity.

More distinguished at least in rarity value is a descent from his brother
James II. I don't think I have one of those, but no doubt Hines will tell us
if I do.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 10 jul 2005 07:19:57

Some Folks find that presumed Bastard Descents From Royalty are the BEST
they can find -- so they accept and deal with them and even treat them
as Precious Treasures -- sort of like coprolites -- burnished, polished
and placed under glass in the living room -- to show off.

Peter 'Pogue' Stewart has several Bastard Descents from Charles II, of
which he is inordinately proud.

Hilarious!

But then, that's what makes Peter such **Delightful Entertainment**.

How Sweet It Is!

Some folks even have Bastard Descents from their own Parents or
Grandparents. Now, THOSE are the ones I feel REALLY sorry for.

Don't waste your sympathy on Pogue Stewart with his Bastard Descents
from King Charles II [Reigned:1660-1685]

Consider Abraham Lincoln, who had a Bastard Descent from his maternal
grandparents -- yes, his Mother, Nancy Hanks, was a Bastard.

I'd say Abe Lincoln did pretty well by himself -- and by us Americans.
Our Greatest President.

Further, you keep running into all these people who are so proud to be
descended from William The Conqueror -- hundreds of millions of folks.

Yet William The Conqueror was a Bastard TOO.

William The Bastard.

Some folks even have a Bastard Decent from William The Bastard ----
Doubly Hilarious!

William The Conqueror had no known Bastards HIMSELF -- he was quite
faithful to his wife -- who was far smaller than he -- by all accounts.

I often mention Great-Grandfather William The Conqueror, with tongue
firmly in cheek, because there are HUNDREDS of millions of us folks
descended from him ---- so it certainly "ain't no big thing".

Of course, FINDING and AUTHENTICATING the actual links to William The
Conqueror is a horse of a different color ---- and most folks can't do
that.

Hence The Corrosive, Amusing Envy Of The Poguenoscenti....

But, Peter Stewart, of course, CAN document his links -- to a BASTARD
DESCENT from King Charles II, who had, count them, 14 BASTARDS -- and NO
legitimate children -- so there are plenty of opportunities for folks of
Peter's Ilk to find Bastard Descents from King Charles II.

Ergo, it's easy for Peter Stewart to feel the SHAME of a BASTARD DESCENT
from King Charles II.

Peter Stewart's kind were turning their sisters, aunts, nieces, cousins,
mothers and grandmothers into demimondaines and whores for Royalty for
CENTURIES -- hence the numerous BASTARD DESCENTS from Royalty held by
these Families.

Diana, Princess of Wales, came from one of the same sort of
demimondaine, whorish, British Families.

She too had Bastard Descents from Charles II.

'Nuff Said.

God Save The Queen!

And:

God Bless America.

Me ke aloha pumehana,

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 10 jul 2005 07:23:17

Peter 'Pogue' Stewart has several Bastard Descents from King Charles II,
of which he is inordinately proud.

Hilarious!

But then, that's what makes Peter such **Delightful Entertainment**.

How Sweet It Is!

Don't waste your sympathy on Pogue Stewart with his Bastard Descents
from King Charles II [Reigned:1660-1685]

But, Peter Stewart, of course, CAN document his links -- to a BASTARD
DESCENT from King Charles II, who had, count them, 14 BASTARDS -- and NO
legitimate children -- so there are plenty of opportunities for folks of
Peter's Ilk to find Bastard Descents from King Charles II.

Ergo, it's easy for Peter Stewart to feel the SHAME of a BASTARD DESCENT
from King Charles II.

Peter Stewart's kind were turning their sisters, aunts, nieces, cousins,
mothers and grandmothers into demimondaines and whores for Royalty for
CENTURIES -- hence the numerous BASTARD DESCENTS from Royalty held by
these Families.

Diana, Princess of Wales, came from one of the same sort of
demimondaine, whorish, British Families.

She too had Bastard Descents from Charles II.

'Nuff Said.

God Save The Queen!

And:

God Bless America.

Me ke aloha pumehana,

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Gjest

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 jul 2005 12:01:01

In a message dated 10/07/2005 05:50:49 GMT Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Douglas Richardson

<snip>

One other thing: I see that you have identified Thomas Hampden of
Hampden (died 1485) as a knight. My research indicates Thomas of
Hampden was an esquire, never a knight.



<snip>




He was knighted June 1483

Adrian

Leo

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av Leo » 10 jul 2005 13:14:02

Self-proclaimed Pogue, you make a statement of fact. Prove it. Show us just
one line.
I would love to know it and as you proclaim it as fact----tell us.

But, please, be quick, you are going to be killfiled by me----you are such a
waste of time.

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle


Peter 'Pogue' Stewart has several Bastard Descents from King Charles II,
of which he is inordinately proud.

Hilarious!

But then, that's what makes Peter such **Delightful Entertainment**.

How Sweet It Is!

Don't waste your sympathy on Pogue Stewart with his Bastard Descents
from King Charles II [Reigned:1660-1685]

But, Peter Stewart, of course, CAN document his links -- to a BASTARD
DESCENT from King Charles II, who had, count them, 14 BASTARDS -- and NO
legitimate children -- so there are plenty of opportunities for folks of
Peter's Ilk to find Bastard Descents from King Charles II.

Ergo, it's easy for Peter Stewart to feel the SHAME of a BASTARD DESCENT
from King Charles II.

Peter Stewart's kind were turning their sisters, aunts, nieces, cousins,
mothers and grandmothers into demimondaines and whores for Royalty for
CENTURIES -- hence the numerous BASTARD DESCENTS from Royalty held by
these Families.

Diana, Princess of Wales, came from one of the same sort of
demimondaine, whorish, British Families.

She too had Bastard Descents from Charles II.

'Nuff Said.

God Save The Queen!

And:

God Bless America.

Me ke aloha pumehana,

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor


Gjest

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 jul 2005 13:14:03

Dear Tim,
Esquires or Squires were chosen by knights to aid them in
taking care of them and their weapons from the nobility /gentry just as the
knights were. They probably had been pages attached to other gentle houses and were
basically in " knight school". If the Opportunity arose and They were
courageous enough in a great enough battle or just connected to powerful enough
persons. They would be knighted.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Leo

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Leo » 10 jul 2005 13:20:02

Dear Adrian,

Thanks for this. I will change my DATA BASE but can you give me a source
(secondary will do) for this event?
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: <ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]


In a message dated 10/07/2005 05:50:49 GMT Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Douglas Richardson

snip

One other thing: I see that you have identified Thomas Hampden of
Hampden (died 1485) as a knight. My research indicates Thomas of
Hampden was an esquire, never a knight.



snip




He was knighted June 1483

Adrian


Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 10 jul 2005 15:35:42

In message of 10 Jul, Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Tim,
Esquires or Squires were chosen by knights to aid them in
taking care of them and their weapons from the nobility /gentry just
as the knights were. They probably had been pages attached to other
gentle houses and were basically in " knight school".

I wish it was that easy. While this is reported to be a meaning of
"esquire", it is not a unique meaning. There were, particularly later
on, all sorts of people who were called esquires. I am not sure we know
exactly what was meant when people were called esquire. I have never
heard of any records of people becoming esquires. Is is a legitimate
term that we can give anyone, knowing fairly accurately what we mean by
it? Or is it, as it later became, some mumbo-jumbo that was given to
anyone, as it once was to my gt-gt-grandfather who looked after the
horses in a wayside inn.

If the Opportunity arose and They were courageous enough in a great
enough battle or just connected to powerful enough persons. They
would be knighted.

Some knights were made such rather before that, viz Edward V who was
made a knight in 1475 at the tender age of five.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Gjest

Re: Constant misrepresentations

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 jul 2005 15:52:28

On 9 Jul 2005 19:50:22 -0700, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

Dear Mr. Stewart ~

Message cross-posted to soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval, and
alt.talk.royalty.

Can you children please keep your dick-waving contests in your own sandbox, and
stop trying to annoy the adults?

Leo van de Pas

OT Net Nanny Re: Constant misrepresentations

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 10 jul 2005 16:29:03

Dear Douglas,

Are you the Net-Nanny who is in the position of telling people what they can
and cannot do? Looks like it.

----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:50 PM
Subject: Constant misrepresentations


Dear Mr. Stewart ~

Please refrain from the constant misrepresentations you continue make
about Mr. Hoskins, Dr. David Kelley, FASG, or others.

Thank you.

Best always, Douglas Richardson

Peter Stewart wrot
O dear....Tony Hoskins was saved from swallowing yet another a raw red
herring from Richardson, and he goes off thanking the fishmonger at the
expense of the food inspector!

Peter Stewart


""Tony Hoskins"" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:s2cfd15e.000@CENTRAL_SVR2...
Thanks so much, Doug. Your generous and helpful input is greatly
appreciated.

Am saying goodbye again to GEN-MED. A week or so ago, ever hopeful, I
re-subscribed, wishing to raise the matter of Sueva Orsini's mother for
discussion. But, I found (as in the past) that little to no response
(save for your kind interest) on serious matters is elicited, while
being overwhelmed by an endless deluge of neurotic, internecine, and
malicious postings, which apparently (most sadly) have become the
hallmarks of this list. There must be healthier venues. I hope to find
them.

Again, thanks for your interest and very helpful input.

Sincerely,

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562



D. Spencer Hines

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 10 jul 2005 19:47:59

Peter 'Pogue' Stewart lost the Family Fortune because of his inordinate
passion for the horses -- indeed he has admitted it.

That's the long and the short of it.

His mother is certainly not happy about it -- or with him.

Nothing more need be said, except:

Bad Show!

Criminally So!

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 11 jul 2005 01:27:23

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 10/07/2005 05:50:49 GMT Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Douglas Richardson

snip

One other thing: I see that you have identified Thomas Hampden of
Hampden (died 1485) as a knight. My research indicates Thomas of
Hampden was an esquire, never a knight.

He was knighted June 1483

Adrian

No, he wasn't. Check your primary sources.

DR

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: OT Net Nanny Re: Constant misrepresentations

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 11 jul 2005 01:28:53

Dear Leo ~

Todd Farmerie is the Net-Nanny around here. Not me.

DR

"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Dear Douglas,

Are you the Net-Nanny who is in the position of telling people what they can
and cannot do? Looks like it.

Peter Stewart

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 jul 2005 01:55:27

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zgdAe.624$4H2.3490@eagle.america.net...
Peter 'Pogue' Stewart lost the Family Fortune because of his inordinate
passion for the horses -- indeed he has admitted it.

"The horses" in this context is usually taken to mean racing, which is
probably what Hines imagines he is talking about - for the record, I have
never taken the slightest interest in that sport or in betting on horses.

That's the long and the short of it.

His mother is certainly not happy about it -- or with him.

And she has told you this?

Nothing more need be said, except:

Bad Show!

Criminally So!

Send the police, close the ports - I point out the inanities, lies and
evasions of Hines, so I must belong in jail....and the man who wrote this
tags his signature with "Vires et honor"! (his schoolgirlish capitalisations
being quite illiterate in Latin, by the way).

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 jul 2005 02:16:44

"The horses" rather than simply "horses" implies racing: Hines is doing the
buck and wing here.

He knows nothing about the circumstances, and equally nothing about horses
if he thinks that only judgement and/or poor business sense can be at fault
in any misfortune with them.

For all Hines can know, my mother might have been a partner in every
decision I took.

And he has still not diverted attention from his pathetic failure to address
the various points at issue over his daily (hourly....) poor judgement shown
here.

Peter Stewart



"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oIjAe.649$4H2.3520@eagle.america.net...
Peter 'Pogue' Stewart lost the Family Fortune because of his inordinate
passion for the horses -- indeed he has admitted it.

That's the long and the short of it.

His mother is certainly not happy about it -- or with him.

I never said anything about RACING.

Pogue Stewart is doing another of his buck-and-wing tap dances.

Pogue Stewart proved he had VERY poor JUDGEMENT [just as he proves here
daily] and VERY poor business sense.

Nothing more need be said, except:

Bad Show!

Criminally So!

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 11 jul 2005 03:03:05

Peter 'Pogue' Stewart lost the Family Fortune because of his inordinate
passion for the horses -- indeed he has admitted it.

That's the long and the short of it.

His mother is certainly not happy about it -- or with him.

I never said anything about RACING.

Pogue Stewart is doing another of his buck-and-wing tap dances.

Pogue Stewart proved he had VERY poor JUDGEMENT [just as he proves here
daily] and VERY poor business sense.

Nothing more need be said, except:

Bad Show!

Criminally So!

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter Stewart

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 jul 2005 03:56:06

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:GalAe.652$4H2.3749@eagle.america.net...
Yep, Peter Stewart lost the Family Fortune on the horses -- and he is
still not man enough to admit he screwed the pooch because of his own
selfish foolishness, arrogant and stubborn stupidity and egregious
pride.

Sad, Very Sad....

And he dragged his poor mother over the cliff and into the ditch along
with him.

Are the ditches in Hawaii lined with cliffs, or is your sense of proportion
and truth as defective in that as in all else?

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 jul 2005 04:19:00

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:GalAe.652$4H2.3749@eagle.america.net...
Yep, Peter Stewart lost the Family Fortune on the horses -- and he is
still not man enough to admit he screwed the pooch because of his own
selfish foolishness, arrogant and stubborn stupidity and egregious
pride.

Before Hines posts a duplicate and then triplicate of his latest moronic
post, he might care to reflect that it was my frank "admission" that set him
off on this latest rant.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Rupert's Right Royal Puzzle

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 11 jul 2005 04:47:21

Yep, Peter Stewart lost the Family Fortune on the horses -- and he is
still not man enough to admit he screwed the pooch because of his own
selfish foolishness, arrogant and stubborn stupidity and egregious
pride.

Sad, Very Sad....

And he dragged his poor mother over the cliff and into the ditch along
with him.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Peter Stewart

Re: Sir Thomas Hampden & Isabella Hampden Never Existed?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 jul 2005 08:08:44

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bFoAe.664$4H2.3927@eagle.america.net...
Hmmmmmmmm...

Leo really does need to learn how to spell the word VENOMOUS and also
learn how to use it properly -- if he is going to keep throwing it
around so casually.

Leo actually thinks he sees "VENEMOUS EYES"....

Hilarious!

After that he needs to teach Pogue Stewart how to spell WESTMORELAND.

No Hines, you are flatly wrong - in England and in Shakespeare's play
rendered into modern spelling it's correctly "Westmorland". Ask the present
earl.

This is a proper noun, not subject to U.S. variants.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sir Thomas Hampden & Isabella Hampden Never Existed?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 jul 2005 08:15:08

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bFoAe.664$4H2.3927@eagle.america.net...
Hmmmmmmmm...

Leo really does need to learn how to spell the word VENOMOUS and also
learn how to use it properly -- if he is going to keep throwing it
around so casually.

Leo actually thinks he sees "VENEMOUS EYES"....

Hilarious!

And before you spout off again so ignorantly regarding the use of a word,
look up your Shakespeare: "the venom of such looks" for starters, and "thy
tears are...venom to thine eyes".

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sir Thomas Hampden & Isabella Hampden Never Existed?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 11 jul 2005 08:45:05

Hmmmmmmmm...

Leo really does need to learn how to spell the word VENOMOUS and also
learn how to use it properly -- if he is going to keep throwing it
around so casually.

Leo actually thinks he sees "VENEMOUS EYES"....

Hilarious!

After that he needs to teach Pogue Stewart how to spell WESTMORELAND.

Hilarious!

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 11 jul 2005 21:02:40

Dear Adrian ~

Thank you for posting this information. Good job.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:
I have now had a chance to look at this a little more.

A)
I imagine the original source for Sir Thomas Hampden of Baddesley is from
Sir John Maclenan's _Family of Poyntz..._ 1st published in 1886, the recent
reprint has:

"
Poyntz (3nd son of John Poyntz of Alderley), of Woodhatch, Reigate, Surrey.
Died 1601, intestate Admo. to his relict 25 April 1601.

=

Elizabeth, da. and coh. of Thomas Newdigate of Wivelsfield, Sussex (son of
Walter Newdigate by Isabella, dau of Sir Thomas Hampden of Baddesley, co.
Herts), mar (fn. 1). 23 May 1569. Admd. to her husband's effects. Died 1602.
Will dated 5 May 1601. Prob. 17 June 1602 (55 Montague).

1. - At Reigate.
"

As another poster noted, there is no Baddesley in Hertfordshire, also I can
find no other Hampden connected with any Baddesley, nor is he in Shaw's
knights. I think this is therefore an errer.

B)
As for the list of people served with writs on 5th June 1483 for knighthood
(K.B.) on the intended coronation of Ed V on 22nd of June, I now see that most
of them also appear in the list of those knighted on the coronation of Rd
III on July 6 1483. For instance George Nevill later Lord Abergavenny appears
on both lists and CP states he was knighted on the coronation of Rd III,
whereas Edward Lord Dudley (of Sutton) appears only on the first list, and CP
does not record him as a knight. Thomas Hamden of Hamden (not Great Hamden)
only appears on the first list. Thus, I now conclude, the first list were not
knighted on 22 June.

Adrian

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Henry V -- First Post-Conquest King Of England Truly Pro

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 11 jul 2005 21:21:51

Of historical and genealogical note -- there are many salient,
scintillating similarities between King Henry V and President George
Walker Bush.

However, King Henry V probably spoke better English.

Deus Vult.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

Gjest

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 jul 2005 21:37:02

I have now had a chance to look at this a little more.

A)
I imagine the original source for Sir Thomas Hampden of Baddesley is from
Sir John Maclenan's _Family of Poyntz..._ 1st published in 1886, the recent
reprint has:

"
Poyntz (3nd son of John Poyntz of Alderley), of Woodhatch, Reigate, Surrey.
Died 1601, intestate Admo. to his relict 25 April 1601.

=

Elizabeth, da. and coh. of Thomas Newdigate of Wivelsfield, Sussex (son of
Walter Newdigate by Isabella, dau of Sir Thomas Hampden of Baddesley, co.
Herts), mar (fn. 1). 23 May 1569. Admd. to her husband's effects. Died 1602.
Will dated 5 May 1601. Prob. 17 June 1602 (55 Montague).

1. - At Reigate.
"

As another poster noted, there is no Baddesley in Hertfordshire, also I can
find no other Hampden connected with any Baddesley, nor is he in Shaw's
knights. I think this is therefore an errer.

B)
As for the list of people served with writs on 5th June 1483 for knighthood
(K.B.) on the intended coronation of Ed V on 22nd of June, I now see that most
of them also appear in the list of those knighted on the coronation of Rd
III on July 6 1483. For instance George Nevill later Lord Abergavenny appears
on both lists and CP states he was knighted on the coronation of Rd III,
whereas Edward Lord Dudley (of Sutton) appears only on the first list, and CP
does not record him as a knight. Thomas Hamden of Hamden (not Great Hamden)
only appears on the first list. Thus, I now conclude, the first list were not
knighted on 22 June.

Adrian

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Henry V -- First Post-Conquest King Of Engand Truly Prof

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 11 jul 2005 23:39:11

| And none could have envisaged that this curious mixture of an old
| Germanic dialect and non-standard French, spoken in an unimportant
| island off the European coast would one day be the most important
| language on earth.
|
| Funny how things go. Perhaps it is what Deus vult, after all.
|
| Momphert
-------------------

Bingo!

Rule Britannia!

British & American Exceptionalism -- A City On A Hill.

And Sharing Top Language....

DSH

"Momphert" <amompharetus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mn.5d637d57c3456968.33383@hotmail.com...

| On 11/07/2005 D. Spencer Hines wrote in article
| <ZixAe.6$4x4.499@eagle.america.net>:
|
| > Henry V [reigned 1413-1422] was the first King of England, after the
| > Norman Conquest, to be really proficient in English and to make a
| > practice of conducting much of his official state business in
| > English.
| >
| > Henry V was the first King of England, after the Norman Conquest,
| > who could read, write and speak with ease in English.
| >
| > Henry V -- one of England's Greatest Kings -- and justifiably so, on
| > many counts.
| >
| > Real Brit....
| >
| > Deus Vult.
| >
| > D. Spencer Hines
| >
| > Lux et Veritas et Libertas
|
| And none could have envisaged that this curious mixture of an old
| Germanic dialect and non-standard French, spoken in an unimportant
| island off the European coast would one day be the most important
| language on earth.
|
| Funny how things go. Perhaps it is what Deus vult, after all.
|
| Momphert

Gjest

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 jul 2005 01:45:02

In a message dated 7/11/05 4:03:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
geb@gordonbanks.com writes:

<< This may be of interest to some. There is a new free online journal.
There is an article on DNA evidence of the descent of the Ashkenazim.
The URL is http://www.jogg.info >>

It's interesting that the author uses a sort of logic like this:

Because a certain marker appears in Ashkenazic people but not in Sephardic
people and because they had a common ancestor, that marker must have come from
outside that original group.

That at least is how I would characterize the first half of the paper.
But an alternate theory would be that they did NOT have a common ancestor.
That's not really mentioned, perhaps it's not considered polite to think that
maybe the Tanakh is wrong.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 jul 2005 03:30:50

""John Higgins"" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:002801c58686$b19b93f0$6562ac40@labs.agilent.com...

<snip>

The methodogy here is interesting:
1) Find a reference in an Internet database with limited (or no)
documentation.
2) Encourage others to do the heavy lifting of real research for you.
3) Collect the results and loudly trumpet a newly discovered descent.

I guess we'll see how this plays out.....too bad that the original
question
has gotten lost in the tumult...it might have led to some interesting new
discoveries.

As Spencere Hines might say, from Honoluelue or wherevere (omitting every
the superfluous "e" that this master of misplaced pedantry would insert):

Yep, Bingo!

Hang on....this is of course what D.S. Hines DID say, in November 2003. Not
as quite as accurately as John today, but at least he saw through the sham
once, when it suited him.

Peter Stewart

John Higgins

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av John Higgins » 12 jul 2005 04:13:01

So, we're back to my original question: Who WAS the Thomas Hampden (not
necessarily Sir Thomas) who was the father of Isabella the wife of Walter
Newdigate and who is described (probably wrongly) as being of Baddesley,
Herts?

It's clear that there is not (yet) any evidence to support Ronnie Bodine's
conclusion that he is the Thomas Hampden (apparently not Sir Thomas) who
mar. Margery Popham. This latter Thomas is, of course, the one in whom Doug
Richardson is showing a sudden interest as he scurries to correct an
omission in RPA and MCA [dare one call it a blooper? Naahh - only Leo makes
bloopers... :-)] and to seek out previously unknown descendants of these
newly found children of the latter Thomas Hampden [of Great Hampden].

The methodogy here is interesting:
1) Find a reference in an Internet database with limited (or no)
documentation.
2) Encourage others to do the heavy lifting of real research for you.
3) Collect the results and loudly trumpet a newly discovered descent.

I guess we'll see how this plays out.....too bad that the original question
has gotten lost in the tumult...it might have led to some interesting new
discoveries.

----- Original Message -----
From: <ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]


I have now had a chance to look at this a little more.

A)
I imagine the original source for Sir Thomas Hampden of Baddesley is from
Sir John Maclenan's _Family of Poyntz..._ 1st published in 1886, the
recent
reprint has:

"
Poyntz (3nd son of John Poyntz of Alderley), of Woodhatch, Reigate,
Surrey.
Died 1601, intestate Admo. to his relict 25 April 1601.

=

Elizabeth, da. and coh. of Thomas Newdigate of Wivelsfield, Sussex (son of
Walter Newdigate by Isabella, dau of Sir Thomas Hampden of Baddesley, co.
Herts), mar (fn. 1). 23 May 1569. Admd. to her husband's effects. Died
1602.
Will dated 5 May 1601. Prob. 17 June 1602 (55 Montague).

1. - At Reigate.
"

As another poster noted, there is no Baddesley in Hertfordshire, also I
can
find no other Hampden connected with any Baddesley, nor is he in Shaw's
knights. I think this is therefore an errer.

B)
As for the list of people served with writs on 5th June 1483 for
knighthood
(K.B.) on the intended coronation of Ed V on 22nd of June, I now see that
most
of them also appear in the list of those knighted on the coronation of Rd
III on July 6 1483. For instance George Nevill later Lord Abergavenny
appears
on both lists and CP states he was knighted on the coronation of Rd III,
whereas Edward Lord Dudley (of Sutton) appears only on the first list,
and CP
does not record him as a knight. Thomas Hamden of Hamden (not Great
Hamden)
only appears on the first list. Thus, I now conclude, the first list
were not
knighted on 22 June.

Adrian


Douglas Richardson royala

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 12 jul 2005 05:54:59

"John Higgins" wrote:
So, we're back to my original question: Who WAS the Thomas Hampden (not
necessarily Sir Thomas) who was the father of Isabella the wife of Walter
Newdigate and who is described (probably wrongly) as being of Baddesley,
Herts?

We never left your original question, John. You labelled the thread
yourself: It says: "MCA Addition?"

The question you asked was if Isabella wife of Walter Newdigate should
be assigned as a daughter of Thomas Hampden, Esq., of Great Hampden,
Buckinghamshire, which Thomas Hampden is in my Magna Carta Ancestry
book. I said no, no, no. What part of no don't you get?

Now you're trying to change the question "MCA Addition?" into something
else. Geez, John, admit your mistake and get on with it. This is one
van de Pas blooper that won't be added to my database!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Peter Stewart

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 jul 2005 06:23:57

Douglas Richardson wrote:

<snip>

This is one van de Pas blooper that won't be added to my database!

What can this mean? Apart from one specific point, Richardson (who is
so notoriously "big" on primary sources although he can't read these
for himself) will be copying from Leo's website (explicitly derived
from secondary works) into his own database? Even "bloopers" on other
matters that were found in Leo's identified sources may be included?

Such a man as Richardson cannot be defamed in any professional sense,
as his only fame is that he abides by no standards.

Peter Stewart

Douglas Richardson royala

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson royala » 12 jul 2005 07:13:49

"John Higgins" wrote:
Calm down, Doug...take a deep breath. No need to get your panties in a
ruffle (to use one of your favorite phrases).

I wear briefs. Basic briefs. Get your facts straight.

DR

John Higgins

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av John Higgins » 12 jul 2005 07:57:01

Calm down, Doug...take a deep breath. No need to get your panties in a
ruffle (to use one of your favorite phrases).

I repeat again the question that I started this thread with:

"Can anyone help to clarify whether there are one or two Thomas Hampdens
here - and, if two, what's the ancestry and marriage of Sir Thomas of
Baddesley?"

And I helpfully mentioned that IF [note emphasis] there was only one Thomas
Hampden, "this MIGHT [emphasis added] be a Magna Carta descent which has
been overlooked by MCA". That's why the thread was captioned in part "MCA
Addition?" - note the question mark. It certainly got your attention - but
not very productively so.

Now that you've busted a gut (unnecessarily) over the question of one or two
Thomas Hampdens (and indirectly slamming Ronnie Bodine as well as Leo),
perhaps you could focus on the more interesting question of the other Thomas
Hampden [said to be of Baddesley]. There's the potential for a real
discovery....


----- Original Message -----
From: <royalancestry@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]


"John Higgins" wrote:
So, we're back to my original question: Who WAS the Thomas Hampden (not
necessarily Sir Thomas) who was the father of Isabella the wife of
Walter
Newdigate and who is described (probably wrongly) as being of Baddesley,
Herts?

We never left your original question, John. You labelled the thread
yourself: It says: "MCA Addition?"

The question you asked was if Isabella wife of Walter Newdigate should
be assigned as a daughter of Thomas Hampden, Esq., of Great Hampden,
Buckinghamshire, which Thomas Hampden is in my Magna Carta Ancestry
book. I said no, no, no. What part of no don't you get?

Now you're trying to change the question "MCA Addition?" into something
else. Geez, John, admit your mistake and get on with it. This is one
van de Pas blooper that won't be added to my database!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: http://www.royalancestry.net

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: MCA addition?: Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 12 jul 2005 09:17:38

In message of 12 Jul, "Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com"
<royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

"John Higgins" wrote:
So, we're back to my original question: Who WAS the Thomas Hampden
(not necessarily Sir Thomas) who was the father of Isabella the
wife of Walter Newdigate and who is described (probably wrongly) as
being of Baddesley, Herts?

We never left your original question, John. You labelled the thread
yourself: It says: "MCA Addition?"

And he put after it "Hampden of Baddesley [or Great Hampden?]" showing
that there was an uncertainty which he was enquiring about.

The question you asked was if Isabella wife of Walter Newdigate should
be assigned as a daughter of Thomas Hampden, Esq., of Great Hampden,
Buckinghamshire, which Thomas Hampden is in my Magna Carta Ancestry
book. I said no, no, no. What part of no don't you get?

There is a lack of scholarship here, not to mention also a taste of
vindictiveness.

JH was asking (above) who was the Thomas Hampden who was the father of
the Isabella who married Walt Newdigate. DR has chosen to ignore that
question and merely say that Isabella was not the daughter of Thomas H.
of Hampden; he has not considered the question that is now asked (and
a very cogent question it is too).

DR asserts that JH "asked was if Isabella wife of Walter Newdigate
should be assigned as a daughter of Thomas Hampden, Esq.". But his
actual words were "Can anyone help to clarify whether there are one or
two Thomas Hampdens here - and, if two, what's the ancestry and
marriage of Sir Thomas of Baddesley?". JH asked an open ended question.

Now you're trying to change the question "MCA Addition?" into something
else.

I don't think this is in any way justified. An open ended question was
asked; much the same question is still being asked. DR has seen fit to
ignore the full question and just concentrate on denying a proposal
that was only under consideration; DR has not answered the interesting
question about the probable father of Isabella Hampden. I do not think
that anyone can say that JH has been trying to change the question.
(Looks like another soc.gen.med apology should be demanded.)

Geez, John, admit your mistake and get on with it.

What mistake has he made? If anything JH has been a model of care in
not jumping to conclusions but merely asking for clarification of
alternative scenarios. That request to "admit your mistake" should be
withdrawn, it is completely unwarranted.

This is one van de Pas blooper that won't be added to my database!

There is no mistake that JH has made, so why bring LvdP into it? Let's
muse on the reasons:

1. It might be a smokespreen to hide that DR does not know the answers
to JH's questions.

2. It might be a smokescreen to hide that DR has (or maybe hasn't, I do
not know what was in the book) made a modest mistake in saying the
Thos Hampden and Margery Popham only had one child.

3. It is merely another occasion when his jealousy at the high
regard with which we all (well, mostly all) view LvdP gets the
better of him.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

Diane Sheppard

Re: Menteith / Bothwell

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 12 jul 2005 20:48:06

You're welcome. Diane

Diane Sheppard

Re: Christian of Bruce

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 12 jul 2005 21:10:09

SP, Vol 2, 128-130, states that Sir Andrew Moray was probably a widower
when he married the "King's sister" Christian Bruce, as she was past
childbearing age when they married.

Sir Andrew's son, Thomas, married Joanna Moray, daughter of Sir Maurice
Moray, earl of Strathearn (d. 10/17/1346 at Battle of Neville's Cross)
and Joanna Menteith, daughter of John Mentieth, d. 1323. Joanna
Menteith was married 4 times: 1. Malise 7th earl of Strathearn (no
children);. 2 John Campbell, earl of Atholl (no children). 3. Sir
Maurice Moray, one daughter, Joanna; 4. William Sutherland, 5th earl (d
before 6/1371). The had three sons, by her last husband, Robert, (6th
earl), Kenneth, & William.

Hope this helps, Diane

Gjest

Re: Menteith / Bothwell

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 jul 2005 21:11:02

In a message dated 7/12/05 6:46:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bluecolumbine@comcast.net writes:

<< Christian was
married to Gratney earl of Mar about 1296 and bore him two children,
Donald earl of Mar & Ellen (m Sir John Menteith between 1320-1323). >>

Thank you Diane for this additional information.

It's interesting that Christian's daughter Ellen married Sir John Menteith
And Christian married third the Lord of Bothwell

And then I have
Margaret Graham, Countess of Menteith 1360-80
married 21 Nov 1348 (this date from the Hull database)
John Murray, Lord of Bothwell

It seems there must be some more interactions between the Menteith and
Bothwell that I haven't come across yet. So now I have to go try to fill them in
.....

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Christian of Bruce

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 jul 2005 21:35:02

In a message dated 7/12/05 6:46:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bluecolumbine@comcast.net writes:

<< Third, she married Sir Andrew Moray, lord of Bothwell. A dispensation
for their marriage was granted October 12,1326. They were related in
the fourth degree. She did not have any children by her third
marriage. >>

http://www.baronage.co.uk/2003c/crawford.html
Makes this claim:
"Sir Thomas was the second son of Christian, sister of Robert the Bruce, by
her third marriage to Andrew Moray of Bothwell.

Joan, the widow of Sir Thomas’s second marriage, married Archibald the Grim,
Lord of Galloway and subsequently Earl of Douglas."


I had previously had this Joan (Jean) as a Moray but per the above, now she
loses her surname and wanders about in my database, while her dead husband
gains new parents. Any comments ?

Will Johnson

Patricia Junkin

Re: Christian of Bruce

Legg inn av Patricia Junkin » 12 jul 2005 22:13:02

Can anyone shed light on the possibility Helen de Veteriponte, daughter of
Sir Alan who held Lockleven Castle for the Scots, married a grandson of
Robert the Bruce and Isabel de Clare? The Veteripontes/Viponts had held
Carriden, Langton and Bolton. West Lothian and Horndean in Berwickshire from
about the mid 12thc. In 1214 King William I (The Lion) granted lands of
Great and Little Sorby in Galloway to Ivo and Alan de Veteriponte.
A branch of the family remained in Scotland.
In the winter of 1333 the only castles in the hands of the ÔScotsÕ were
Dumbarton, held by Malcolm Fleming (where David himself and his wife were
then sheltering) Loch Leven held by Alan Vipont; Kildrummy, held by
Christiana Bruce, Andrew MurrayÕs wife; Urquhart, held by Thomas Lauder; and
the pele of Lochdoon, held by John Tompson.

Thank you for observations.
Pat

----------
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Christian of Bruce
Date: Tue, Jul 12, 2005, 3:33 PM


In a message dated 7/12/05 6:46:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bluecolumbine@comcast.net writes:

Third, she married Sir Andrew Moray, lord of Bothwell. A dispensation
for their marriage was granted October 12,1326. They were related in
the fourth degree. She did not have any children by her third
marriage.

http://www.baronage.co.uk/2003c/crawford.html
Makes this claim:
"Sir Thomas was the second son of Christian, sister of Robert the Bruce, by
her third marriage to Andrew Moray of Bothwell.

Joan, the widow of Sir Thomas’s second marriage, married Archibald the
Grim,
Lord of Galloway and subsequently Earl of Douglas."


I had previously had this Joan (Jean) as a Moray but per the above, now she
loses her surname and wanders about in my database, while her dead husband
gains new parents. Any comments ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Christian of Bruce

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 jul 2005 22:31:02

In a message dated 7/12/05 1:14:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bluecolumbine@comcast.net writes:

<< SP, Vol 2, 128-130, states that Sir Andrew Moray was probably a widower
when he married the "King's sister" Christian Bruce, as she was past
childbearing age when they married. >>

Diane thank you again for this additional data.

It's interesting that Christian of Bruce marries Gratney, 7th Earl of Mar
and her son's step-grandmother is listed in my database as Mary of Mar
the sister of that same Gratney.

Will Johnson

Diane Sheppard

Re: Christian of Bruce

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 12 jul 2005 22:46:03

You're welcome, Diane

Gjest

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 jul 2005 07:21:33

I think we need to know what kind of DNA evidence was used. Ancient
Jewish tradition is matrilineal and so it would make sense for
mitochondrial DNA to show a possible relationship between the two
groups whereas the Y-chromosome may not.

Bronwen Edwards

Gjest

Re: Journal of Genetic Genealogy

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 jul 2005 18:37:01

In a message dated 7/13/2005 11:29:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lostcooper@yahoo.com writes:


Ancient
Jewish tradition is matrilineal

So ... you're saying that King David was not a Jew ? His matrilineal line is
not strictly Hebrew (Jewish).

Will Johnson

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