On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 02:54:28 -0000, <taf@clearwire.net> wrote:
On Nov 2, 4:31 pm, "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin+use...@spamcop.net
[..]
Afonso VI = Isabel/Zaida
-Sancho
-Elvira
-Sancha = D. Rodrigo Gonzalez de Lara
Afonso VI = Isabel de França (d. of Luis "Le Gros" de França)
-Sancha Afonso = Rodrigo Alvares de Asturias (from: La casa de
Ron)
Are there actually 2 Sanchas?
Is there any documented evidence for this?
Bishop Pelayo, writing within a few years of Alfonso's death, gives an
account of his marriages and children:
I tried to search for the primary source for this account by Opispo
Pelayo, and I guess I found it - Liber Chronicorum - though I was not able
to find the actual text online by a simple search on Google.
Nevertheless, I found the following:
"la obra histórica del obispo Pelayo de Oviedo (Liber Chronicorum, Li-
ber Itacii), que habría modificado o creado ex novo este docu-
mento, con el objetivo de salir favorecido en sus disputas entre su sede y
la de Lugo"
From:
LA PERVIVENCIA DE LA CIUDAD ROMANA
Celia Fernández Corral
http://www.educa.jcyl.es/educacyl/cm/im ... edia=40011"en esta época, el poder feudal de los monarcas leoneses, desencadena en
Asturias la idea secesionista ( primera mitad del siglo XII), siendo el
máximo exponente el obispo Pelayo. A él se debe el Liber.
Testamentorum con el que pretende fortalecer la sede ovetense frente a la
hegemónica iglesia toledana.El obispo Pelayo, no duda en falsear
donaciones o diplomas para aumentar el prestigio de su territorio, en una
obra donde se recogen hermosos dibujos de los monarcas asturianos."
http://www.el-caminoreal.com/historia/h ... dieval.htmAnd this as well:
"El hipercriticismo de diversos autores (i.e. Lucien Barrau-Dihigo) ha
cargado las tintas contra la labor historiográfica de Pelayo, tachándole
de falsario, fabuloso e interpolador, de forma no siempre justificada. La
obra que ha hecho más célebre al obispo Pelayo ha sido el Libro de los
Testamentos donde el prelado ovetense recogió todos los documentos
relacionados con la situación jurídica, la historia y las posesiones de su
diócesis."
http://www.oviedodocesiglos.es/index.ph ... &Itemid=29This seems to cast some doubts about the mentioned Chronicle, parts of it
allegedly being a forgery to favour the Obispado de Oviedo over Lugo
and/or Toledo.
In this case, however, (and, plese, note that I've not read the original
text) possibly there is no reason to believe this passage of the Chronicle
is biased or forged.
wife: Agnes of Aquitaine
children: none
Have her as Inés de Poitou, which is the same.
wife: Constance of Burgundy
children: Urraca
Ok
wife: Berta of Lombardy
children: none
Have her as Berta da Borgonha?
But certainly not the same house of Borgonha Constança belongs to.
Have it as Condado Palatino de Borgonha.
wife: Isabel
children: Elvira m. Roger of Sicily
Strangely enough, I do not have this marriage.
Do you know who were the parents of Rogerio, and if there was sucession
from this marriage?
Sancha m. Rodrigo Gonzalez de Lara
Yes.
wife: Beatrice
children: none
Beatriz de Aquitania, ok.
mistress: Jimena Munoz
children: Elvira m. Raymond of Toulouse
Teresa m. Henry of Burgundy
The mother of Portugal.

mistress: Zaida, renamed Isabel
children: Sancho
Now this is more clear to me. I had both his daughters Sancha and Elvira
assigned to Zaida, which I understand from the discussion going on is not
clear at all.
What is known is that they are children of "Isabel, Regina", correct?
BTW, I also have this, according to the author of "Os Braganções", José C.
Lourinho Soares (page 63):
Fernão Mendes de Bragança, o Velho (d. after Aug. 1117) married an
unnamed, illegitimate daughter of Afonso VI de Castela, by an unnamed
mother.
"Documenta-se como governador de Chaves por D. Afonso VI, com cuja filha
(certamente uma bastarda) parece que casou, segundo o Livro Velho."
This refers to the Livro Velho, which I presume is the Nobiliary of Count
D. Pedro (now online, as I posted), which I have not cheched yet. It's not
a primary source, and must be taken with care.
Just about all of this is confirmed by other sources: contemporary
charters and the like. As we have been talking about, there is
significant disagreement over whether Alfonso married Zaida/Isabel,
either as the Queen Isabel who was mother of Sancha and Elvira, or as
a second queen of the same name.
It is the mother of Elvira and Sancha who is reputed to be of France,
daughter of Louis, but this is found in a late (by 150 years)
chronicle and a monumental inscription that was actually installed
even later and appears to be based on the chronicle. It is false,
there being no Louis who could have been her father, and the French
royals had never used the name Isabel before this time.
Yes. I've checked the chronology, and it's impossible that she was
daughter of Louis Le Gros, b. 1081.
I apologize if I'm asking something obvious, but could you please
summarise why did it appear the hypotesis of the 2 Isabel? Why can't we
merge them at once? Is there any documental evidence to oppose this?
As to a Sancha who married Rodrigo Alvarez, I know of no evidence for
her. I strongly suspect confusion with the authentic Sancha who
married Rodrigo Gonzalez. Who is this Rodrigo Alvarez supposed to be.
Son of Alvaro Rodriguez de Asturias and Maria Pelaez de Cisneros.
G-son of Rodrigo Diaz de Asturias and Jimena Gomez (this couple is
documented)
Gdaughter of Pelayo Pelaez de Cisneros and Mayor Gonzalez.
I have Maria Pelaez de Cisneros also married to Diego Ansurez de Monzon.
There was a count of this name under Alfonso VII, but he appears too
young, and married Maria Ponce.
Can you provide me more info on this Rodrigo Alvarez married to Maria
Ponce?
Does your source give additional
information that would tell me where I should be looking for this
Rodrigo Alvarez?
"Era ALVAR DÍAZ, como queda dicho, hijo de RODRIGO ÁLVAREZ DE ASTURIAS,
3º de este nombre, el que sirvió al Rey San Fernando en la conquista
de Sevilla con sus hermanos ALVAR PÉREZ DE QUIÑONES, tronco de la familia
de QUIÑONES y RUI PÉREZ DE AVILÉS, maestro de Calatrava, que figura tan
brillantemente en la toma de Sevilla, los cuales eran hijos de otro
RODRIGO ÁLVAREZ DE ASTURIAS, 2ºde este nombre, que se casara con la
Infanta DOÑA SANCHA ALFONSO, hija del Rey ALFONSO VI DE CASTILLA y de LEÓN
y de la Infanta DOÑA ISABEL, hija de LUIS VI Rey de Francia. Era RODRIGO
ÁLVAREZ DE ASTURIAS, el 2º de este nombre, Gobernador de Asturias y
en una escritura que otorgaron a favor de la Iglesia de Burgos, el Rey
Alfonso VII y su mujer Doña Berenguela, le llama Conde de Asturias y aún
solían darle el título de Rey de Gozón y Pravia por haber dado el Rey
ALFONSO VI a su hija DOÑA SANCHA mujer de DON RODRIGO estos lugares sin
sujeción alguna a la jurisdicción Real.
RODRIGO ÁLVAREZ DE ASTURIAS, el segundo de este nombre, era hijo de ÁLVARO
RODRÍGUEZ DE ASTURIAS y de su mujer MARÍA PELÁEZ y nieto de RODRIGO
ÁLVAREZ DE ASTURIAS, el primero, y de su mujer XIMENA GÓMEZ hija de DON
GÓMEZ DÍAZ DE GORMAZ a quien los romances antiguos llaman El Conde Lozano
y de DOÑA TERESA PELÁEZ, Condes de Carrión, hija esta señora de la Condesa
DOÑA ALDONZA ORDÓÑEZ y del INFANTE DON PELAYO FLÓREZ nieto del Rey FRUELA
II."
From:
"La casa de Ron y sus agregadas: Ibias, Quirós, Valcarce Caballero y
otras. Estudio genealógico y heráldico", Antonio de Ron, 1932
Available online at:
http://www.ghg.net/albertron/LA%20CASA%20DE%20RON.html--
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.
(Sun Tzu, The Art of War)