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Ian Goddard

Re: Northern Wills & Inventories

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 11 okt 2007 12:27:51

WJhonson wrote:
Re Indexes of the Visitations. They are all complete evidently.

If you go to my jumppage here.
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... hp/Sources

Closer to the bottom fourth or so, you will find this link Visitation Index

It is, in fact, a Visitation Index. Evidently to all of them.

Try it. Let me know if it appears to be incomplete. I'd like to know.

Will Johnson


Great, duly bookmarked. The various visitations and wills at

http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/choosefamily.html

could be usefully added to "Abstracts and Extracts of primary
documents". Note that the PDFs appear to contain both images and OCRs
but the latter are raw with frequent misreadings but nontheless useful.

--
Ian

Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk

Ian Goddard

Re: Northern Wills & Inventories - PS

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 11 okt 2007 12:48:26

Ian Goddard wrote:
WJhonson wrote:
Re Indexes of the Visitations. They are all complete evidently.

If you go to my jumppage here.
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... hp/Sources

Closer to the bottom fourth or so, you will find this link Visitation
Index
It is, in fact, a Visitation Index. Evidently to all of them.

Try it. Let me know if it appears to be incomplete. I'd like to know.

Will Johnson


Great, duly bookmarked. The various visitations and wills at

http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/choosefamily.html

could be usefully added to "Abstracts and Extracts of primary
documents". Note that the PDFs appear to contain both images and OCRs
but the latter are raw with frequent misreadings but nontheless useful.


This

http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=uioJAA ... ontroversy

might also be useful. It includes the depositions given in the trial
together with the author's research into the deponents' backgrounds but
one of the points of interest is that the depositions include brief CVs
of the deponents in their own words.

--
Ian

Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk

John Higgins

Re: Middleton 1100-1600

Legg inn av John Higgins » 11 okt 2007 16:49:15

FHL is the Family History Library - go to http://www.familysearch.org and click on
"library" for details, including their on-line catalog. Although the FHL
itself is in Salt Lake City, much of their collection has been microfilmed
(indicated in the catalog) and, if filmed, is generally available for loan
(at a small fee) to one of their branches, the Family History Cernters.
There are roughly 60 FHCs in Florida, so there should be one reasonably
close to you. See the website for locations.

The FHL in SLC will also do limited research via mail request, if you are
very specific as to your needs. See the website for details.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Arnold" <billarnoldfla@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: Middleton 1100-1600


Much thanks. I have no idea what FHL is. I am in Florida,
and although I have done genealogy since 1960s, I am NEW to
British genealogy, and am tracing an ancestor. I am trying to
get Middleton genealogy from online, and apologize for that.
My local library has so little, they did not have the American
Genealogist, so you can surmise they have less British works.

Bill

--- John Higgins <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I wasn't referring to the current American publication titled The
Genealogist, but rather to the British publication of the same name
published in the late 19th and early 20th century (until 1922 I
believe).
There were two series of this publication - the later (and longer)
series is
known as the "new series".

For information on this and other useful 19th-century British
genealogical
periodicals, see Anthony Wagner's book "English Genealogy', pp. 393ff.
They
are available in the FHL and probably in other libraries with large
genealogical collections, possibly on microfilm or microfiche.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Arnold" <billarnoldfla@yahoo.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: Middleton 1100-1600



--- John Higgins <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"But the most extensive pedigree I've found for the Middletons of
Stockeld appears in Clay's
edition of Dugdale's 1664-65 visitation of Yorkshire. The Middleton
segment was published in
8-10 pages in vol. 18 of "The Genealogist [new
series]", and Clay's edition of the entire visitation was published
separately as a three-volume
set. "

I called The Genealogist and they could not find the particular
Middleton
segment in vol. 18.

Can someone assist with more detail so I can find it? I can order a
back
issue. I need to know
what the
name of the article was, what year, whether spring or fall issue.

Are we referring to the same journal, published in America?

Bill

**********************************************








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Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton 1100-1600

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 11 okt 2007 17:08:03

Much thanks. I have no idea what FHL is. I am in Florida,
and although I have done genealogy since 1960s, I am NEW to
British genealogy, and am tracing an ancestor. I am trying to
get Middleton genealogy from online, and apologize for that.
My local library has so little, they did not have the American
Genealogist, so you can surmise they have less British works.

Bill

--- John Higgins <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I wasn't referring to the current American publication titled The
Genealogist, but rather to the British publication of the same name
published in the late 19th and early 20th century (until 1922 I believe).
There were two series of this publication - the later (and longer) series is
known as the "new series".

For information on this and other useful 19th-century British genealogical
periodicals, see Anthony Wagner's book "English Genealogy', pp. 393ff. They
are available in the FHL and probably in other libraries with large
genealogical collections, possibly on microfilm or microfiche.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Arnold" <billarnoldfla@yahoo.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: Middleton 1100-1600



--- John Higgins <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"But the most extensive pedigree I've found for the Middletons of
Stockeld appears in Clay's
edition of Dugdale's 1664-65 visitation of Yorkshire. The Middleton
segment was published in
8-10 pages in vol. 18 of "The Genealogist [new
series]", and Clay's edition of the entire visitation was published
separately as a three-volume
set. "

I called The Genealogist and they could not find the particular Middleton
segment in vol. 18.

Can someone assist with more detail so I can find it? I can order a back
issue. I need to know
what the
name of the article was, what year, whether spring or fall issue.

Are we referring to the same journal, published in America?

Bill

**********************************************







____________________________________________________________________________
________
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onese ... fer=1ONXIC

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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Bill Arnold

Re: Northern Wills & Inventories

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 11 okt 2007 17:20:04

Much thanks. I just got in mail Marshall's "Genealogist's
Guide" after talking with Gary Boyd Roberts. But I still
have the problem of getting the cited works.

For info, I am now concentrating on Middletons from
Sir Peter de Middleton,c.1300, down to William Middleton,
d.1552, who was his descendant. My concerns are near
the last descendants in that line. Particularly, I am
interested in locating my female andestor Middleton
who was more than likely born to the Middleton who
married Alice Mauleverer, and was probably a brother
of William Middleton who married Margaret Hamerton.

Bill

***************************************************
--- John Higgins <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

The published visitations, along with many, many other sources of
information on specific surnames, are indexed in G. W. Marshall's
"Genealogist's Guide" (1903) and its successor J. B. Whitmore's
"Genealogical Guide" (1953), both of which should be available in many
libraries. [There is also a successor to Whitmore, Geoffrey Barrows'
"Genealogist's Guide" (1977), but it's much shorter and has little
visitation material]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Arnold" <billarnoldfla@yahoo.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: Northern Wills & Inventories


I have, unfortunately, dial-up service. So, before I download
a huge file, I want to check an index of what is in the particular
Visitation. Is there an index to these Visitations, prior to a
download of each one?

Bill

***********************************

--- John Watson <WatsonJohnM@gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 10, 7:55 am, Bill Arnold <billarnold...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Much thanks again. How does one solve the index problem,
so one can do selective downloads?

Bill

*********************************
--- John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:



Today's harvest from the Internet Archive website is for wills, etc.
mainly from Yorkshire. For completeness I have also included links
to
where some of these documents, and others, can be downloaded in pdf
format from Prof. Boynton's University of Iowa website, but beware,
some of these are large downloads.

Internet Archive:

Testamenta Eboracensia. A Selection of Wills from the Registry at
York
(Part 2)
http://www.archive.org/details/testamen ... 30surtuoft

Testamenta Eboracensia. A Selection of Wills from the Registry at
York
(Part 4)
http://www.archive.org/details/publications53surtuoft

Testamenta Eboracensia. A Selection of Wills from the Registry at
York
(Part 5)
http://www.archive.org/details/selectio ... 05surtuoft

Testamenta Eboracensia. A Selection of Wills from the Registry at
York
(Part 6)
http://www.archive.org/details/aselecti ... 06surtuoft

Wills & Administrations from The Knaresborough Court Rolls (Vol 1)
http://www.archive.org/details/publications104surtuoft

North Country Wills (Part 1)
http://www.archive.org/details/northcou ... 00surtuoft

Wills and Inventories from the Registry at Durham (Part 3)
http://www.archive.org/details/willsinv ... 00surtuoft

University of Iowa:

Testamenta Eboracensia. A Selection of Wills from the Registry at
York
(Parts 1 & 2)
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern ... rktext.pdf

North Country Wills (Part 1)
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern ... 16text.pdf

North Country Wills (Part 2)
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern ... 21text.pdf

Wills and Inventories of the Northern Counties of England (Part 1)

http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern ... landtext...

Wills and Inventories from the Registry of the Archdeaconry of
Richmond
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern ... ndtext.pdf

Regards,

John

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Hi Bill,

Not sure what you mean by the "index problem".

Regards,

John


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Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton 1100-1600

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 11 okt 2007 17:26:02

When I click on the url, I get a series of searches at Google.

My point is still the same: my download speed to so slow,
I cannot download each one to find which one I need. Is there an external index?

Bill

*****************************************************
--- Ian Goddard <goddai01@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 10/9/2007 5:07:00 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
billarnoldfla@yahoo.com writes:

I am unfamiliar with the reference:

"Testamenta Eboracensia", 3:209, which I think is available on-line -
might be worth checking...." Can you tell me what the source is,
and is there an URL for the online?


------------------------------

_http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Testamenta+Eboracensia%22&rls=com.
microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLG_
(http://www.google.com/search?q="Testamenta+Eboracensia"&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBo
x&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLG)

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

See also John Watson's very useful Northern Wills & Inventories thread.

--
Ian

Hotmail is for spammers. Real mail address is igoddard
at nildram co uk

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Bill Arnold

Re: Northern Wills & Inventories

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 11 okt 2007 17:27:02

Again, thanks for your help. I will try it and report back.

Bill

**********************************************************
--- WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

Re Indexes of the Visitations. They are all complete evidently.

If you go to my jumppage here.
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... hp/Sources

Closer to the bottom fourth or so, you will find this link Visitation Index

It is, in fact, a Visitation Index. Evidently to all of them.

Try it. Let me know if it appears to be incomplete. I'd like to know.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
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word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message




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Bill Arnold

Re: Northern Wills & Inventories

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 11 okt 2007 17:28:16

Much thanks. I have done that, as well. In some instances,
I wait ten minutes for a page to open only to find it irrelevant
and immaterial. I apologize for wasting so much bandwidth
on tech aspects of genealogy. I will keep trying. I have been
at this since the 1960s, and getting there.

Bill

*********************************************************
--- Todd Carnes <toddcarnes@gmail.com> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Arnold" <billarnoldfla@yahoo.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: Northern Wills & Inventories


I have, unfortunately, dial-up service. So, before I download
a huge file, I want to check an index of what is in the particular
Visitation. Is there an index to these Visitations, prior to a
download of each one?

Bill


Google Books allows you to search (and read) the text of the books online.
Why not visit the various "visitation" books, search for the surname(s)
you're looking for, then download only those volumes that come up with hits
that you are interested in pursuing?

Alternatively, you could just view the books online and only print out the
pages that interest you.

Todd






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Renia

Re: Northern Wills & Inventories

Legg inn av Renia » 11 okt 2007 18:05:54

Bill Arnold wrote:

Much thanks. I just got in mail Marshall's "Genealogist's
Guide" after talking with Gary Boyd Roberts. But I still
have the problem of getting the cited works.

For info, I am now concentrating on Middletons from
Sir Peter de Middleton,c.1300, down to William Middleton,
d.1552, who was his descendant. My concerns are near
the last descendants in that line. Particularly, I am
interested in locating my female andestor Middleton
who was more than likely born to the Middleton who
married Alice Mauleverer, and was probably a brother
of William Middleton who married Margaret Hamerton.


The usual way in genealogy, as you doubtless know, is to work backwards
from what you know, to what you don't know.

That said, the Visitation of Yorkshire 1563 gives:

William Mydelton of Stockhill married Margaret doughter of Sir Stephen
Hamerton of Wyckelsworth, com Ebor (in the county of Yorkshire). His
"son and heyr" was John Mydelton who married Mawde doughter of John
Thwaytes of Lofthowse.

William was the second son of Oliverus or Lodwicus Mydelton, nupcit (who
married) "Johanam filiam et heredem Johannis Granson" (Joan, daughter
and heir of John Granson). Their children were:
Edward*
William (married Margaret Hamerton)
Thomas
Anna
Johana
Johana (sic) nupta Leonardo Preston

No other spouses mentioned.

None of the Mydeltons in this extensive genealogy is stated to have
married a Mauleverer. The earliest Myddleton mentioned, is Thomas. A
Peter Middleton (etc) is not mentioned. By the same token, the
Mauleverer pedigree does not show any marriage to a Myddleton.
* Edward probably died young as he was not the heir.


Who, where and when was your female ancestor Middleton?

Renia

Gjest

Re: Visitation Index

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 okt 2007 19:30:05

<<<In a message dated 10/11/2007 3:05:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Maytree4@aol.com writes:

Yes, I would volunteer my services. I have (not all years) Kent, Norfolk,
Suffolk, Essex and London (1568) on CD disks and I am a good quick typist.
I'd be quite happy to copy type the Index for each of them.>>>


===============
If you need a place to host your new index, I would be happy to put it up on
my site.

Will



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Gjest

Re: Northern Wills & Inventories

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 okt 2007 19:36:03

<<In a message dated 10/11/2007 8:27:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
billarnoldfla@yahoo.com writes:

Much thanks. I have done that, as well. In some instances,
I wait ten minutes for a page to open only to find it irrelevant
and immaterial. >>


-------------------------

Bill you may not be using "exact quoting" in your searches.
If for example you are looking for Stephen Middleton, don't type Stephen
Middleton
instead type

"Stephen Middleton"

with the quotes just like that. That will show you only those pages with
have that exact phrase instead of Stephen OR Middleton but not both.

Will Johnson



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Gjest

Re: Middleton 1100-1600

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 okt 2007 19:37:02

In a message dated 10/11/2007 8:23:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
billarnoldfla@yahoo.com writes:

My point is still the same: my download speed to so slow,
I cannot download each one to find which one I need. Is there an external
index?


------
Bill, Google itself IS the external index. Google Books indexes every word
within these books.

There is no need for any additional index. Just type what you want into
Google Books

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: children of Helena Snakenborg with her second husband, T

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 okt 2007 19:50:06

<<In a message dated 10/11/2007 5:20:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
zzhsoszy@uqconnect.net writes:

I don't have access to the DNB, but following is what I have found on
the internet (for her father)>>


----------------------------------------
You asked for comments.
My first comment is "the internet" is not a source.
It's like saying "I found it in the library", or "some guy told me."

Sources should be useful for confirming details.

Will Johnson



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WJhonson

Re: Katherine Moleyns first wife of John Howard Duke of Norf

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 00:24:05

And which William Molyns was the husband of Katherine Fauconer ? (by 1417)

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Katherine Moleyns first wife of John Howard Duke of Norf

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 01:07:28

Some more proof that Eleanor (Molyns) m1 Hungerford m2 Manningham; was an only surviving child.
Will Johnson

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0156.pdf
CPR 7 Nov 1431
"On 28 November, 8 Henry VI, the king by letters patent, on certain security committed to Margery, late the wife of William Molyns, father of William Molyns, and to Anne, late the wife of the said William the son, the custody of two thirds of the lands, rents and services which were of the said William the son, who held of the king in chief, and which came into the king's hands by reason of his death and of the nonage of Eleanor his daughter and heir, rendinging therefor the extent or as they might be able to settle with the treasurer of England before the Purification then next. They did not, however, come to any settlement by that date, and, as they have now surrendered their said letters patent, the king now grants the said custody and the marriage of the said heir to Thomas Chaucer, esquire, for whom Thomas Haseley of London, esquire, and John Fortesque of the county of Devon, esquire, have become sureties; inquisitions of the said two thirds having now been returned int!
o Chancery, from the date of the death of the said William the son until the full age of the heir. The said Thomas Chaucer is to pay for the said custody and marriage 500 marks at the Exchequer, viz. 400 at once and the remaining 100 within one year after the said heir shall be of the age of fourteen years. He who is to keep buildings in repair and support all charges and keep the heir up to the age of fourteen at his own cost but should the heir die under the age of fourteen the said Thomas or his executor shall be quit of paying the said 100 marks. Moreover should the said Margery and Anne or either of them die before the said Eleanor reaches the said age, the said Thomas shall thenceforth have the custody of all the manors, lands, rents and services which would come to the king's hands thereby, until the full age of the said Eleanor, rendering therefor either the extent to be made or as the said Thomas may be able to settle with the treasurer of England within half a yea!
r after the death. -- By bill of the treasurer
- Transcribed courtesy of Will Johnson, wjhonson@aol.com, Professional Genealogist, from the original image.

WJhonson

Re: Katherine Moleyns first wife of John Howard Duke of Norf

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 01:14:03

The IPM in which William Molyns' heir is named as his daughter Eleanor, alledgedly describes her as "aged 14". If true this would mean the IPM took 11 years to be created.

Something still seems amiss here.

WJhonson

Re: Katherine Moleyns first wife of John Howard Duke of Norf

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 01:36:12

Will thank you for your excellent post.

Note that "Dick" Whittington "thrice Lord Mayor of London" is one of the enfeoffees in 1417 of the Manor of Brehull and as you probably have suspected this would be the first wife of that William Molyns later to die in 1429 or 1440 or something.

At any rate, note that the father there named "Thomas Fauconer" is likely to be the same person as "Thomas Fauconer Lord Mayor of London" thus explaining as well why Dick Whittington one of the enfeoffs.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Possible CP addition: Ralph Cromwell IV (d c1349)?

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 okt 2007 01:55:25

I have 1344 Common Pleas Warranty of charter Nota Gard of a Ralph de Crombwell plt. against William la Zouche of Harryngsworth concerning deeds at Basford. Summary: Note that in a warranty of charter the defendant said that the plaintiff was not impleaded. Because he did not deny the deeds nor the warranty, it was adjudged that the plaintiff should recover 'pro loco et tempore'
And in the 1353 IPM of this William la Zouche:
Bolewyk and Rothewell. The reversion of the manors after the death of Avice wife of Ralph de Crombwell, held of the gift of the aforesaid Henry, Walter and William by fine levied in the kings court, to him and the heirs ofn his body, with the remainder to his right heirs.

Is this the "Ralph IV'?

Thanks,
Pat
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: mjcar@btinternet.com
CP sub Cromwell (Barony, 1375) provides some details of the first
Lord's ancestry, viz:

1. Haldane
2. Hugh
3. Ralph (I)
4. Ralph (II), died 1289
5. Ralph (III), died 1298
6. Ralph (IV), born c1291
7. Ralph (V), died 1364
8. Ralph (VI), 1st Lord Cromwell, died 1398

No death date for Ralph (IV) is given [I did not check the Corrigenda
volume].

I presume he was the testator called "Ralph de Crombwell, knight",
whose will was proved at York on 25 January 1349/50 (Zouche's
Register, 10, p 340)

MAR


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WJhonson

Re: Katherine Moleyns first wife of John Howard Duke of Norf

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 02:25:58

Will thank you for your excellent post.

You will be interested to know that Philippa, the known relict and admin'x of her husband Thomas Fauconer Lord Mayor of London (in 1415), was a HALSHAM.

CF for more details on the family
http://books.google.com/books?id=EG0JAA ... a+fauconer


Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Possible CP addition: Ralph Cromwell IV (d c1349)?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 06:11:01

<<In a message dated 10/11/07 17:56:32 Pacific Daylight Time, pajunkin@bellsouth.net writes:
I have 1344 Common Pleas Warranty of charter Nota Gard of a Ralph de Crombwell plt. against William la Zouche of Harryngsworth concerning deeds at Basford. Summary: Note that in a warranty of charter the defendant said that the plaintiff was not impleaded. Because he did not deny the deeds nor the warranty, it was adjudged that the plaintiff should recover 'pro loco et tempore'
And in the 1353 IPM of this William la Zouche:
Bolewyk and Rothewell. The reversion of the manors after the death of Avice wife of Ralph de Crombwell, held of the gift of the aforesaid Henry, Walter and William by fine levied in the kings court, to him and the heirs ofn his body, with the remainder to his right heirs.

Is this the "Ralph IV'? >>
--------------------

Reserving judgement that CP has this correctly, I do have that *some* Ralph Cromwell born between about 1292 and 1300 married Anice (Avice is close enough) de Bellers of Kirby Bellers.

I then have that they had an unnamed son who was the father of Ralph, 1st Lord Cromwell born 1328/37 who married Maud (Matilda) de Bernake.

There are probably a lot of ways to reconstruct the family.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 06:21:11

<<In a message dated 10/11/07 22:05:46 Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson writes:
Mary had a brother John Machell of Tangley near Wonersh, Surrey, he was "aged 13" in 1593 in his father's IPM of that year. Michael Machell the haberdasher died 23 Aug 1593>>

-------------------------
Will thank you for your excellent post. Above you said "Michael" but I know you meant "Matthew" as your link actually says Matthew as well.

Will Might I inform you that there is perhaps something else tangled in this families ascent.

You had mentioned in your last post that Jane Woodruff who married as his first wife John Machell of Tangley, Surrey and you gave her ascent, in part, through the White family of South Warnborough.

This Jane had an elder brother David Woodruff, Knt of Poyle, Surrey who married Catherine White

Well it turns out Catherine White's father was that John White Lord Mayor of London in 1563 called "of Farnham, co Surrey"; while on the other side, Catherine's maternal grandfather was that Sir Thomas White called "of South Warnborough, Surrey"

Will I don't yet know how these White families of South Warnborough exactly connect BUT that Robert White of "South Warnborough" who died Oct or Nov of 1512 is called the grandson of that Robert White called "of Farmham, Surrey"

Strange isn't it? Just waiting for the missing piece to link these two.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Hester Sandys Temple & the 700 club

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 06:27:06

<<In a message dated 10/11/07 22:20:28 Pacific Daylight Time, rjmatsleepers@yahoo.co.uk writes:
My reading of the claim by Fuller does not require all 700 descendents
to have been living at the same time. I suspect it includes some who
had died before Hester - for example, John Temple, son of Thomas and
Hester who died in 1592, aged 2 months. >> -------------------

-------------------------------
What is the source that they had a son John who died in 1592 aged 2 months ?
Peter Temple is called their eldest son and its known that sir John was baptised 10 Nov 1593

That doesn't leave a lot of room for another son.

WJhonson

Re: children of Helena Snakenborg with her second husband, T

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 07:01:11

Serendipity is a strange thing in my life.

I had just remarked that I'd like to join two White families.

The daughter of Catherine White by her first husband William Harding of Wyke, was named Mary Harding (a son William d.s.p. 1611). This Mary Harding by one source had married "Robert Gorges of Worplesdon"

So I went hunting for who this could be and as the results were *actually coming up!* I read your posting. So having your words in my mind, here is what I read not "Worplesdon" but rather "She married Sir Robert Gorges of Red Lynch who with the concurrence of his wife in 1614 levied a fine of this estate..."

That's a little too weird isn't it. So

Catherine White m1 William Harding, m2 David Woodruff, m3 George Wrottesley

By her first husband issue William d.s.p. 1611 his heir was his sister Mary Harding who m by 1614 Sir Robert Gorges of Red Lynch son of Sir Thomas Gorges by Helen Snakenborg.

I mean how in the world could you MAKE up such a thing to link together four distinct threads.


Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: children of Helena Snakenborg with her second husband, T

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 07:05:32

Will thank you for your excellent post.

You mentioned Thomas Gorges son of Sir Robert Gorges of Red Lynch by his wife Mary Harding.

It might interest you to know that this Thomas Gorges married as her first husband that same Margaret Poyntz dau of Sir Robert Poyntz of Iron Acton (by his wife Frances Gibbons), who secondly married Richard Hastings Bart and thirdly Samuel Gorges of the Inner Temple and Wraxall, Judge.

They all have royal ascents except for Richard Hastings Bart who I don't know who he is just yet.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 08:25:28

Just when you thought these people couldn't *get* more tangled.

William Offley, Mayor of Stafford and later Sheriff of Chester in 1517
married first to a Dorrington
and had interalia Sir Thomas Offley and Margaret Offley

Margaret married as her first husband and his second wife to John Nichols, merchant Taylor of London (IPM 24 May 23H8), Margaret died 1573 and left a will.

Her brother Thomas Offley married to Joan Nichols "heiress of her father"
"aged 21 and more" by his IPM 24 May 23H8... you guessed it. She was the daughter of John above, by his first wife....

Aaaaaaaahhhhh!

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 08:46:06

<<In a message dated 10/12/07 00:22:25 Pacific Daylight Time, WJhonson writes:
Well it turns out Catherine White's father was that John White Lord Mayor of London in 1563 called "of Farnham, co Surrey"; while on the other side, Catherine's maternal grandfather was that Sir Thomas White called "of South Warnborough, Surrey">>

--------------------------
Will thank you for your excellent post.
You may be a tad disappointed that the family isn't quite as incestuous as that.
Sir John White, Lord Mayor of London it turns out was married twice. Catherine White is by his second wife, Katherine Sodaye, dau of John Sodaye of London, apothecary to the Queen.

To drive the point home, her will as "Katherine White, widow, late wife of Sir John White Knight, late alderman of London" [just in case we're thinking she is someone else !!] mentions "my dau Katherine White... my BROTHER Richard Sodye..." etc etc see more here

http://books.google.com/books?id=L58RAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA224


Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Possible CP addition: Ralph Cromwell IV (d c1349)?

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 okt 2007 16:14:12

Will,
Perhaps this was a settlement of affairs after William la Zouche's son Eudo (who married JOan Inge) was implicated with his "cousins" Ralph and Roger la Zouche in the murder of Roger Belers.
On his death in 1326--IPM Roger Belers. 25 January 19 Edw. II. Leic. Belgrave. 4l. 12s. rent, 14 hens price 21d. and divers plots of meadow which the said Roger granted for fifty years to the warden of the chapel of St. Peter Kirkeby, held of William la Zouche by service of 6d. yearly. IPM. Edw. II, Vol. 6, 1910. p.442.
Thank you,
Pat

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com>
In a message dated 10/11/07 17:56:32 Pacific Daylight Time,
pajunkin@bellsouth.net writes:
I have 1344 Common Pleas Warranty of charter Nota Gard of a Ralph de Crombwell
plt. against William la Zouche of Harryngsworth concerning deeds at Basford.
Summary: Note that in a warranty of charter the defendant said that the
plaintiff was not impleaded. Because he did not deny the deeds nor the warranty,
it was adjudged that the plaintiff should recover 'pro loco et tempore'
And in the 1353 IPM of this William la Zouche:
Bolewyk and Rothewell. The reversion of the manors after the death of Avice wife
of Ralph de Crombwell, held of the gift of the aforesaid Henry, Walter and
William by fine levied in the kings court, to him and the heirs ofn his body,
with the remainder to his right heirs.

Is this the "Ralph IV'?
--------------------

Reserving judgement that CP has this correctly, I do have that *some* Ralph
Cromwell born between about 1292 and 1300 married Anice (Avice is close enough)
de Bellers of Kirby Bellers.

I then have that they had an unnamed son who was the father of Ralph, 1st Lord
Cromwell born 1328/37 who married Maud (Matilda) de Bernake.

There are probably a lot of ways to reconstruct the family.

Will Johnson

jonathan kirton

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 12 okt 2007 17:14:00

Dear Will and Group,

Further to Margaret Offley, daughter of William Offley, Mayor of
Stafford, I recently obtained a photocopy of "The Genealogist",
Volume XIX, (1903), which many of you may not have seen, which
contains an article entitled:-
"A Manuscript Relating to the Family of Offley" which provides a
charming contemporary description of Margaret at the time that she
married her second husband Stephen Kirton.
(page 5):- "But to return to Wm. Offley his Daughters, Margarett the
eldest that was marryed to Mr. John Nechells (sic), who as you have
heard had no issue by her but left her very rich, & being a
beautifull woman of a goodly complexion, tall & in her best tyme,
after was married to Stephen Kirton Cousen (sic) & Godsone to that
worthy Kt Sr Stephen Jenings (sic) who had by his wife Margaret (that
is Stephen Kirton's wife) two sons Thomas and John Kirton, This John
the younger (sic. In fact John was the elder son and heir, but he
died young and unmarried) was a very beautifull man, and at Bruges in
Flaunders (sic) was tearmed (sic) a second Absolon, the Angell of
English men, & hee dyed in his best tyme unmarried."

Margaret's eldest son, John Kirton, was born in 1534, and like his
father was a Merchant Tailor,
and a Merchant of the Staple of England. He never married. He wrote
his will 13 June, 1566,
(P.C.C. Crymes), his will being proved just 14 days later, on 27
June, 1566. aged about 32.
He left bequests to his well beloved mother: one ring with a death's
head of 40 shillings, and a black gown; and to each of his sisters:
(Jane)Wethill, Grizzel Woodruff, Ellen White, and Anne Kirton (who
in 1566 was still unmarried). Also to his well beloved brother Thomas
Kirton, one hundred poundes, and to his well beloved brother in law
Richard White, the sum of Fowretie
(sic 40) poundes.

Jonathan Kirton, Canada

Doug Weller

Re: Message from Thomas Milton Tinney, Sr.

Legg inn av Doug Weller » 12 okt 2007 19:29:49

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:36:15 -0700, in soc.history.ancient, Christopher
Ingham wrote:

On Oct 9, 12:02 am, "vctin...@sbcglobal.net" <vctin...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
Message from Thomas Milton Tinney, Sr.
to Roy Stockdill and others

On Oct 6, 10:53 am, "Roy Stockdill" <roy.stockd...@btinternet.com
wrote:

My little joke was aimed at those Americans -
and you can't deny there are a fair number of
them around - who just love to claim they can
trace their ancestry back to 1,000 years before
William the Conqueror. and some even back
to Adam and Eve, when we all know that this
is just simply fantasy, wishful thinking and
absurd nonsense. Latching onto fanciful
biblical genealogies and tagging your own
family tree onto them is just a joke. You have
only to look at some of the absurd websites
to realise this is true - and the Tinney site is
one such example.
. . .
However, my relatives are sensible and realistic
people who look to me to tell them the truth
about their ancestry as far as I know it, not
to some pie-in-the-sky mythical links to
ancient history BC.
. . .
I suspect most of these would-be descendants
of Adam and Eve and the ancient world come
from the fundamentalist American bible belt
and, as far as I am concerned, they are indeed
very naïve and provincial people.
. . .
Roy Stockdill
Editor, Journal of One-Name Studies
Guild of One-Name Studies website:www.one-name.org
Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History:www.genuki.org.uk/gs/
Newbie.html

REPLY:
It is exceedingly unfortunate that someone
of your stature in genealogy and family history
research, should present false assertions, as
observed and studied truth, in any public forum,
such as soc.genealogy.britain You have degraded,
in a serious way, the profession that you represent.

I suggest that you learn to read before you write.
It would be most helpful. You asserted: "Latching
onto fanciful biblical genealogies and tagging your
own family tree onto them" is what you found out
in your personal evaluation of my web sites. Not.

A very thorough evaluation was made of Biblical
text and presented, along with other parallel
supporting records, of the ancient history of Man.
Alphabetic History of Civilization:
Ancient and Modern Genealogieshttp://www.academic-genealog ... logies.htm

This book evaluates historical knowledge
as it relates to ancient and modern
genealogies. Information gleaned from
social contexts, both secular and religious,
are reviewed, using modern genealogical
research specialist standards: to properly
reconstruct and correctly portray real
historical lives and family pedigrees.
Cultural, religious and family tradition,
(their stated facts and viewpoints), are
surveyed within given ancient contexts
of primary and secondary record sources,
as handed down for the benefit of our
modern generation. Modern claims of
genealogical attachment to biblical records
are noted, with remarks.

I also presented a study of
the BOOK [Stick] of JUDAHhttp://www.academic-genealogy.com/ ... yjudah.htm
You will note links, upon professional evaluation:
"WARNING: This pedigree is not CREDIBLE."

ALEX SHOUMATOFF, in his book,
"The Mountain of Names", incorrectly
notes: "Thomas Milton Tinney, a Mormon
who has traced his ancestry over a hundred
and fifty-two generations, right back to Adam,
explains . . . " Alex missed reading page 141,
among many other notes and references given,
in Ancient and Modern Genealogies with Temple
(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)
Records; copyright 1973.
"It is apparent to the feel of the author of this
book, that some names have been added or
inserted into this pedigree to eliminate the Jewish
connection of the record, and years expanded to
unusual post-flood life spans, to make an improper
Biblical connection."http://www.dispatchesfromthevanishingworld.com/pastdispatches/mountai...

This is also clearly stated by others, at:
BIBLE - BIBLICAL RESOURCES: under
I Have a Question - Questions and Answers:http://www.academic-genealogy.com/worldancestry.htm#biblical
"Robert C. Gunderson, Senior Royalty
Research Specialist, Church Genealogical
Department. The simplest answer to both
questions is No. Let me explain. In thirty-five
years of genealogical research, I have yet to
see a pedigree back to Adam that can be
documented."

Nevertheless, your further compound your error
by stating: "Latching onto fanciful biblical genealogies",
which I find contradicted in MORMON records; RE:

Pearl of Great Price, Moses, Chapter 1, verse 8:
And it came to pass that Moses looked, and
beheld the world upon which he was created;
and Moses beheld the world and the ends
thereof, and all the children of men which are,
and which were created; of the same he greatly
marveled and wondered.
. . . Moses, Chapter 7, verse 67 And the Lord
showed Enoch all things, even unto the end of
the world; and he saw the day of the righteous,
the hour of their redemption, and received a
fulness of joy; . . .

D&C 107: 56 And Adam stood up in the midst
of the congregation; and, notwithstanding
he was bowed down with age, being full
of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever
should befall his posterity unto the latest
generation.

These ancient intelligent individuals and seers,
are our true living ancestry, which make latching
onto fanciful DNA hypothetical genealogies an
absurd joke, even "wishful thinking and absurd
nonsense", as you so eloquently mention.

Cheers! and

Respectfully yours,

Tom Tinney, Sr.
Who's Who in America,
Millennium Edition [54th] through 2004
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
Family Genealogy & History Internet Education Directoryhttp://www.academic-genealogy.com/

So, do you list any medieval genealogies with purportedly documented
descent
from ancient (before AD 500) lineages? If so, could you cite one or
two examples?

Christopher Ingham

He's posted this to sci.archaeology also.
And soc.geneaology.britain, where the kindest comment was "sky-pixie
delusion".

Doug
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 23:00:25

We have yet another chance to illustrate the need to note sources AS YOU GO, citing their own underlying sources in some cases, but at least so that you can go BACK to cite their underlying sources once you find a conflict in the secondaries.

Towit and appropos of this thread we've been examining some families who swirled around the offices of Lord Mayor, Alderman of London, and also Merchant Taylors, etc.

We're well-aware by now of the family of Stephen Kirton and his wife Margaret Offley. Some of their numerous offpring appear in Stirnet and in particular look at
Stirnet Dutton 02 here http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... .htm#link1
*which* citing:
(1) Collins (1812, volume 8, Dutton of Sherborne).
(2) BP1934 (Sherborne) with support from BEB1844 (Dutton of Sherborne)
states that "Thomas Dutton of Sherborne (d 4.10.1581, 2nd son), m1 Mary (dau of Robert Meyney or Taylor), and m2 Margaret Kirton (dau of Stephen Kirton of London)"

"The Genealogist" (v19, 1903), "Pedigree of Offley" on Google Books here
http://books.google.com/books?id=L58RAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA224

states that he married ANNE Kirton and quotes the Will of this Thomas Dutton towit: '...mentions his "laste wife" Anne Kirton, decd., and Margaret his then wife (who "deserved no curtesye" from him). By Anne Kirton he had two sons, William his heir..."

We can see fairly clearly WHY the secondaries have muddled the line making Anne and Margaret the same woman and then adding Kirton as Margaret's surname based on likely some prior reference to Thomas' father-in-law Stephen Kirton. Plainly, Anne was the Kirton as The Genealogist states, and mother of his heir William. Margaret Kirton never existed, at least not from these facts, perhaps from others. Margaret SOMEBODY however did.

Since stirnet however has enshrined the false mother, it will now be repeated in a thousand online gedcoms, while only a dozen will read this and correct it based on his actual will. Of course the prior fault lies in Collins, BP and BEB doubtless dependent on Collins, who never went back to re-read the original primary source.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 23:10:32

Will thank you for your excellent post.

I note a discrepancy with PA, "Raynsford" here
http://books.google.com/books?id=p_yzpu ... #PPA604,M1

where DR states that Stephen Kirton by his wife Margaret Offley had "ONE son and four daughters". The article you linked in your prior post, to The Genealogist states that they had TWO sons, the other son John is there called "The Angell of Englishmen" (whatever that means) and died unmarried. Perhaps something of his life can be found to prove the assertion that he was their son ?

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 okt 2007 23:36:28

Will re the descendents of the Kirton family, I direct your attention again to that article in The Genealogist where they very helpfully tell us that, in the IPM of his father Thomas Dutton of Sherborne, his son and heir William Dutton was "aged 20 years 6 weeks and 3 days" on 5 Dec 1581.

Now flipping to Stirnet Dutton 02 we see a list of the children of William Dutton by his wife Anne Nicholas dau of Ambrose Nicholas Lord Mayor of London (again with those Lord Mayors !)

At any rate, Stirnet helpfully gives all the baptismal dates. I can only add that they were all baptised at Sherborne, Gloucs. and you can view the baptismal entries here (http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch C036292)


Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 00:46:25

Will today seems to be a day of corrections.

Please direct your attention to
http://books.google.com/books?id=mfUGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA400
Collections for a History of Staffordshire
where they, copying an MS state that Margery Wrottesley married James Leveson.

We know that SOME female Wrottesley did for Richard Wrottesley in his will dated 1518 mentions his "son James Lewson". However as to which James Leveson, there appears to be confusion (ONCE MORE) on his, plus his two wives in an expected manner.

Towit the merger of two wifes and the shifting of the maiden name from one to the other, probably because of some OTHER document in which the Wrottesley's are named as inlaws of some sort.

James Leveson married twice, firstly to Alice Wrottesly and secondly to Margery (not Margaret) OFFLEY

James made a Will dated 8 Apr 1545, proved 28 Oct 1547 *in which* he makes his current wife Margery one of his executors and specificallly names his two wives, Alice and Margery.

His son sir Richard Leveson in HIS will names his uncle Walter Wrottesley.

So we see once more an example of the muddling that sometimes occurs, and we've fixed James's death date erroneously reported as obt 7E6 (which dates possibly never existed in the first place), or at least this obit belongs to some other James.

Will Johnson

jonathan kirton

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 13 okt 2007 02:02:05

Dear Will and Group,

I made an error in my posting earlier today with regard to the
article from "The Genealogist".
Mea culpa. The contemporary statement that Thomas Kirton was Stephen
and Margaret Kirton's eldest son, and his younger brother was John
(the Angel of English men), which I had said was in error, was in
fact probably partially correct at the time it was written.

Stephen and Margaret's first two children, boy and girl twins, were
born at Hillfarrance, co. Somerset, in 1523, the boy being named
Thomas. Their second son John was born in 1534, and at the time that
the first part of the original article was written, that part of the
statement was correct.

Thereafter, evidently sometime before about 1537, the eldest, first
born Thomas died, a fact of which the author of the article was
evidently unaware. In about 1537 Stephen and Margaret had a third son
who was also named as Thomas, and was thus John's younger brother,
and the Thomas who was named in John's 1566 will. After John's death
it was Thomas, the third son, who became his parent's son and heir,
and inherited the Thorp Mandeville Manor after his mother's death.

This third son, the last Thomas, was a lawyer, and Common Sergeant of
the City of London, and died and was buried at Thorp Mandeville,
Northants. in 1601. There is still an excellent memorial in the
parish church there to him and his wife and children, although over
the years some of the details of some of the coats of arms on the
memorial have been repainted incorrectly.

Jonathan Kirton, Canada

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 02:41:09

Jonathan thank you for your posting, could you provide us with a source for your statements ?
Thanks
Will

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 05:47:33

<<In a message dated 10/12/07 07:05:14 Pacific Daylight Time, starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA441 >>>

----------------------
You're right John.
Maybe someone can refresh for us what the proof is that Mary Machell who m Ralph Cudworth belongs to this family at all ?

The fact that she isn't listed in the Vis Essex 1634 doesn't look good. Admittedly the vis wasn't focused on her part of the family, but it does list several of her siblings.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 05:55:40

<<In a message dated 10/12/07 09:15:05 Pacific Daylight Time, jonathankirton@sympatico.ca writes:
(P.C.C. Crymes), his will being proved just 14 days later, on 27
June, 1566. aged about 32. >>

--------------------

Are you sure that the will itself states that he is 32 ?
It would be very uncommon for a will to say that, so it would be great if we could verify the source for saying he was 32.

Thanks
Will

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 06:05:30

Gah!
The IGI is clogged with people submitting the marriage of "Jane or Ann Machell " to Richard Rich.

Stop !

The marriage extract is already present in Batch M001511
stating
Jane Mrs Machel to Richarde Riches
13 Dec 1574 Saint Mary Aldermary, London

There was no Anne Machell married to Richard Rich.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 06:18:03

Thanks to John Brandon for pointing out this interesting Machell connection to Sir Nathaniel Rich. He has a free DNB entry here in the old edition

http://books.google.com/books?id=SCw8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1005

WJhonson

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 07:15:04

<<<In a message dated 10/12/07 09:27:38 Pacific Daylight Time, billarnoldfla@yahoo.com writes:
Sir Peter de Middleton=Eustacia de Plumpton
knight, sheriff, Yorkshire
alive.1290/1300 >>>
-----------------
He was yet living in 1328 when he witnessed a charter


Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 07:25:21

Bill the full line, as presented, is not possible.

In particular its highly unlikely that Isabel Plumpton, daughter of Sir William Plumpton "eldest son" by his wife Elizabeth Stapleton figures in the line in the way you have described.

For Alice to be married and active on deeds in the 1490s, she has to be too old to be in this descent. Sir William Plumpton is known to have been born on 7 Oct 1404 and died on 15 Oct 1480, his Stapleton wife was dead by 1450.

If you calculate approximate years backward yourself you will see that there is a problem.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Copinger's Manors of Suffolk online volumes

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 07:39:05

<<In a message dated 10/12/07 14:25:29 Pacific Daylight Time, starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
The Earl in 1567sold the lordship to Arthur Chute or Choute,
who sold it in 1577 to Humphrey Brewster." Vol. 2, p. 67, sub
Frostenden (which is the place Lionel Chute the elder married his wife
Susan ...), mentions "a deed by Anne of Cleves appointing Philip
Chewte to be Bailiff of the lordship." >>
=====================
Seems like the name could also be "Shute" as in
Robert Shute, Baron of the Exchequer

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... atton2.htm

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Elizabeth: The Golden Age -- Cate Blanchett/Clive Owen

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 okt 2007 07:41:20

It's a SPECTACLE.

Don't expect a HISTORY LESSON.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

WJhonson

Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 07:56:02

Brendan as far as I know, Douglas doesn't *have* a set of corrections to MCA or PA for that matter. If the Rokesley error is in PA, then perhaps someone can find the page, and section and send me a correction page that I can put up on my site where I have the the PA corrections

http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... t_Ancestry

Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Elizabeth: The Golden Age -- Cate Blanchett/Clive Owen

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 okt 2007 08:06:38

Fair-Minded.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-------------------------------------------

ELIZABETH: THE GOLDEN AGE

David Noh
Film Journal International

In _Elizabeth: The Golden Age_, Cate Blanchett once more tackles Britain’s
dynamic queen, a character she played nine years ago in _Elizabeth_.

For me, the definitive Good Queen Bess will always be Glenda Jackson in her
monumental 1971 TV miniseries _Elizabeth R_, in which her febrile
intelligence and pugnacity were perfectly channeled. That said, Blanchett
runs her a very close second, with Bette Davis in _The Private Lives of
Elizabeth and Essex_ (1939) and _The Virgin Queen_ (1955) — a question of
her exterior mannerisms, however effective, holding sway — pulling third
place.

Blanchett’s work in the first _Elizabeth_ was impressive but a tad callow, a
sketch more than a human fulfillment.

Here, like Davis in _The Virgin Queen_, she has really grown into the part
and has a magisterial ease which is both convincingly queenly and supremely
ingratiating.

Her voice has deepened and acquired daunting power, and she’s a haughty,
naughty delight dismissing the various hapless royal suitors who have come
from all over the globe to woo her. Later, in her scenes with Sir Walter
Raleigh (Clive Owen), she is deeply moving in what could easily be highly
clichéd moments of “I’m a queen, but I’m a woman, too!” It’s a full-scale
star performance in every sense — immeasurably helped by Alexandra Byrne’s
magnificently architectural, bewildering array of costumes — and I wouldn’t
be surprised if, like Helen Mirren last year, Blanchett walks away with an
Elizabethan Oscar.

Director Shekhar Kapur mercifully soft-pedals the grating _Godfather_-like
violence he over-employed in _Elizabeth_ to “enliven” historical episodes.

The threatening invasion of the mighty Spanish Armada is the dramatic
centerpiece of the film, which provides plenty of outlets for Kapur’s
blood-and-thunder penchant, as does all the conniving intrigue going on in
Elizabeth’s court, replete with gory moments of torture presided over by
Geoffrey Rush, happily reprising his role of Sir Francis Walsingham,
ruthless advisor to the Queen.

Much more might have been made of the intriguing tale of Mary, Queen of
Scots (Samantha Morton), the cousin Elizabeth had executed for royal
plotting. Morton is fully up to the part, but Kapur gives us her story in
dribs and drabs, preferring to concentrate — unsurprisingly — on her
beheading, over which he lingers with salacious glee.

At one point, Kapur has Blanchett morphing into Joan of Arc, in full armor,
astride a white horse, encouraging her troops to battle, the very image of
an inspirational Britannia.

The fact of such an episode is highly doubtful, so if the director wanted to
play fast and loose with history, for dramatic effect he also might have
included a fierce confrontation scene between the two Queens, although they
never actually met.

Owen has a fit, Errol Flynn dash as Raleigh and has an impressively starry
moment when this great sailor of the seas describes the allure of voyaging
with a faraway look in his eyes that captivates his Queen. (It’s
interesting to note — perhaps in the desire not to mar the film’s triumphant
happy ending — that the filmmakers omit any mention in the written epilogue
of his eventual beheading by Elizabeth’s successor, King James.) Jordi
Mollà has a handsome authority as Philip II, Elizabeth’s great Spanish rival
in the quest for world domination. Technical credits all the way down the
line are solid and the entire project makes one yearn to see a wrap-up film
of Elizabeth’s final years, with her doomed relationship with Robert
Devereux, Earl of Essex, _et al._

WJhonson

Re: Will Johnson's "prestidious" database

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 09:31:32

In a message dated 10/13/07 01:10:28 Pacific Daylight Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Will ~

Where do I post the corrections to your PA corrections? I have
several of them in hand to share with you. And I know you want them.

Better yet, where do we post corrections to your own database? Do you
want them posted here on the newsgroup, or set to you privately? Will
you post the corrections on a website for us to visit? That's only
fair I think.

I've already submitted the "de Botetourt" correction of your database
to you. As of tonight, here's what you're currently showing:

Botetourt, Ada of b: 1284/1325
Botetourt, Guy , Knt of Upton, Norfolk b: 1200/1248
Botetourt, Joan de b: ABT 1362 in Mendlesham, Suffolk d: AFT 1428
Botetourt, John de b: 1335/1369 in Rotherfield, Oxfordshire d: in
Rotherfield, Oxfordshire
Botetourt, John de , Knt b: ABT 1330 in Mendlesham, Suffolk d: 1377
Botetourt, John, 1st Lord b: ABT 1265 in of Mendlesham, Suffolk d: 25
Nov 1324
Botetourt, John, Lord of Webley Castle b: 1318 d: 1385
Botetourt, Joyce de b: 1320/1355
Botetourt, Joyce de b: 1335/1368 d: 12 Aug 1420
Botetourt, Joyce, Baroness , suo jure b: 1360/1386 d: 1 Jan 1406/1407
Botetourt, Katherine b: 1335/1345 d: ABT 1387
Botetourt, Otho de b: ABT 1298 in Mendlesham, Suffolk d: 1345
Botetourt, Robert of b: 1233/1300
Botetourt, Roger of b: 1233/1300
Botetourt, Thomas de b: 1284/1301 d: 1322 in D.v.p.

You have five entries out of fifteen correctly stated, the rest are
wrong. That's not very impressive, Will. None of these people were
"de Botetourt" or "of Botetourt." The name was Botetourt, with no
"de" or "of."

Also, I just visited the the front page of your database. You seem to
have misspelled two words at the top of your main index page:
"prestidious" and "descendents"

I think you mean "prestigious descendants" not "prestidious
descendents." Is that right? I can't even find prestidious in the
dictionary. Is prestidious even a word?

For those that want to visit your database, here is the weblink:

http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... ls&recno=0

Your database is certainly most "prestidious," whatever that means.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah >>


--------------------------------------------
Well if your idea of a "correction" is "de" or no "de", then I don't want them :)
That isn't "my database", I actually have several such, and that one happens to be an older copy, as you can note at the top where it says
"Updated: 2006-05-25"

Meaning that it was last updated 25 May 2006. It's now 13 Oct 2007.

You can go ahead and submit corrections however if you like to me or to the list
or whatever you want.

Additions would be sort of pointless as I've been adding people continuously
for about 15 months since that was posted, so it's quite likely any addition
is already in my current data.

There is no online copy of my current database by the way, since that would
probably be your next question. I think that database on AWT was my last
public update to the internet of my royals database.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Will Johnson's "prestidious" database

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 okt 2007 09:33:02

<<In a message dated 10/13/07 01:10:28 Pacific Daylight Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Where do I post the corrections to your PA corrections? I have
several of them in hand to share with you. And I know you want them. >>

-----------------

As to this part, I think it would be helpful to the entire list for you to post your PA corrections publicly.

Will Johnson

jonathan kirton

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 13 okt 2007 14:06:07

Dear Will Johnson, and the Group,

There seem to be a great many errors and confusions about Stephen
Kirton and his wife Margaret (nee Offley) and their children.
Together they had a total of eleven children of which six survived to
adulthood.

For example there are 64 entries for Stephen on the IGI, ALL of them
wrong.

Stephen Kirton was born at Christchurch, co. Hampshire, probably at
the former home of his mother, Margaret (nee White) who had
originally come from there. This is stated specifically in Stephen's
will (P.C.C. 17 Tashe):- "Item I will that there shalbe given in
Almes to the poor people of sainct Andrus where as I now dwell and in
the parish of sainct Katheryne Christchurche where that I was borne
the summe of ten poundes sterling......." Furthermore:- "Item I
will and bequeth towardes the repayring of the parish churche of
southwarmbrowe in the Countie of Southampton where my mother was born
the some of fyve poundes."

We do not know his date of birth, but we do know that his mother
Margaret had died probably before 1514, and Stephen seems to have
been her second child out of four, so I estimate that he was born in
about 1501. There is a record that he married his wife Margaret
(nee Offley) in 1521in Staffordshire, and that their first two
children, twins, were born at Hillfarance, Somerset, in 1523.

Their children who survived to adulthood were as follows:-

Jane Kirton, born 1530, married aged 16 in 1546 to Richard Wethill.
When Stephen wrote his will on 1 Feb., 1552 he made "...my well
beloved sonne in law Richard Whethill..." one of his overseers, along
with "..my faithfull frende and kynsman Thomas Whit (sic; White) of
Southwarmbrow of the countie of Southampton, Esquier ....." so
presumably both Jane and her husband were then still alive, and Jane
was still alive in 1566 from her brother John's will.

John Kirton, born 1534, (mentioned in my previous post) He is not
mentioned by name in his father's will. d.s.p. 1566.

Grizzel Kirton, born circa 1536, wife of Sir Nicholas Woodroffe, Lord
Mayor of London (See the
Visitation of London, 1554) Both are mentioned in Stephen's will,
when he left them both gold mourning rings, adding:- "Item where as I
have given unto Nicholas Woodrof my sonne in lawe with the marrying
of my doughter (sic) Grissel in redy money the some of CCLxvj poundes
(etc.)
(actually a bit over 266 pounds sterling) and more dyd give unto them
the howse where he now dwellith (sic) which cost me a hundreth at the
least some in all amth (sic: amounteth) to CCCLxvj (over 366 pounds
sterling)...." Grizzel or Grissel was still alive in 1566.

Ellen Kirton (not Hellen, as is sometimes written), born 1541, wife
of Sir Richard White of South
Warnborough, co. Hants.. Ellen eventually died in Essex, 22 August,
1596; not specifically named in Stephen's will.

Anne Kirton, born 1545, wife firstly of Sir Thomas White, and
secondly of Thomas Dutton of Sherborne, co. Glouc.. Also not
specifically named in Stephen's will.

Thomas (2) Kirton, born:- (Richardson says about 1537 (Magna Carta
Ancestry, p.475 item 14)). However, perhaps because he was still very
young when his father died, surprisingly he is not mentioned by name
in his father's will. However in his mother's will he is not only
mentioned, but is also her executor (Somersetshire Wills, Frederick
Brown, 4th. series,p. 9, Margaret Kyrton,
P.C.C. 22 Peter). From the Soc. of Genealogists, London, Vernona
Smith MSS, Vol. 36, page 56; Thomas Kirton, entered the Inner Temple,
14 November, 1565; and he was made Common Sergeant of the City of
London (a position in the City's legal hierarchy which would only
have been held by a lawyer) in the year 1582. (He was not a Merchant
tailor, nor a Merchant of the Staple, as stated by Richardson, as had
been his father and his elder brother John.)(ibid.) The text on the
memorial in the Thorp Mandeville church reads as follows:- "Here lie
the Bodies of Thomas Kirton Esquier Common Serjeant of the Citye of
London and Marye his Wyfe who being married together 38 years and
having issue between them 12 children 6 sonnes and 6 daughters Marye
died the 22 of Ffebruarye in the yere of Our lord 1597 being 60 yer
of age Thomas Kirton Esquire was buried XXI of April MDCI "
So Mary was born in about 1538, and I would guess that Richardson's
estimate of Thomas' birth being in about 1537 is pretty accurate, so
that Thomas was only aged about 15 when his father Stephen had died,
leaving him in the care of his mother who was one of Stephen's
executors.

Thomas and Mary (nee Sadler) Kirton's memorial shows them facing each
other, kneeling at an alter in prayer, while behind Thomas are his
three sons who survived to adulthood, and behind Mary are the five
daughters who reached adulthood. They are all carved in effigy in the
marble or alabaster in high relief. At the top of the memorial the
Kirton arms impale those of Sadler, and along the lower edge of the
main carved panel are several coats of arms including those of
Milborne, & some that are still unidentified. (I can provide a pdf
scan of the memorial if wished.)

(Other sources used, other than those already mentioned: "History and
Antiquities of the County of Northamptonshire" by George T. Baker
(1822-30); "Calendar of State Papers Domestic- Edward VI, 1547-1553" )

Sincerely,

Jonathan Kirton, Canada

Renia

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Renia » 13 okt 2007 16:41:42

Bill Arnold wrote:

Thanks, Will. In the archives, someone confirmed this desecent
from the Clay's 3 vol. of, I believe, Dugdale, et al. Also, I do not
recall Isabel Plumpton in the line. Are you using her name as an
alternate for Alice?

He's saying the pedigree does'nt work.

The Middletons of Stockeld in Dugdale's Visitation of 1665 begin with
William Middleton who died in 1609.

Renia

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Renia » 13 okt 2007 17:06:07

Bill Arnold wrote:

Again, much thanks, Renia.

Re: the footnote, do we know who wrote it,
and when?

Presumably the 1881 editor, Charles Best Norcliffe. He cites the
visitation of Lincolnshire, ed 1881.

Also, there is additional evidence about the other son.

Waht other son? I'm losing track here.

Others have commentated that John, heir, might have
intnetionally left his brother's name out of the pedigree:
for some unknown reason. I could speculate, but I am
not fully cognizant of all the wills and other court documents
about these principals, as yet. Also: apparently, John's
pedigree statements are contradicted by other visitations,
and other evidence. Thanks for this, though. Are you
aware of the other evidence.

I'm not studying the Myddletons, so, no.

The other son married a daughter of Sir John Leeke,
who was the grandfather of Robert Pek(Peke) Peck,
the Elder. Best evidence is she was Margery Leeke.

What I can tell from Flower's 1563 visitation is that:

Richard Peck married Alice Myddleton of Stokheld.
His son, John Peck, married Jane, daughter of John Anne of Frickley.
John's son, Richard Peck, married Anne Hothom.
This Richard's daughter, Katherin, married John Leake (or Lake) of
Normanton.

Renia


Bill

*************************************************



--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:


According to the pedigree of the Peck family of Wakefield in Flowers
Visitation of 1563/4, page 236:

Richard Pecke, son and heyr, married a doter of Mydelton of Stokeld.

A footnote says he was:

Sir William [Mydelton]. Her daughter Anne became the wife of Henry Allen
of Grantham. The footnote cites the Visitation of Wiltshire, ed Walter C
Metcalfe, 1881, page 2.

Their children are named as:
John
Margaret
Ann
Elsabeth
Izabell

Renia


Bill Arnold wrote:


Thanks much., Renia.

Here Is what I have:

So: I seek confirmation of the found data, the Middleton
pedigree: seeking any missing information and corrections
of anything which is incorrect.

Sir Peter de Middleton=Eustacia de Plumpton
knight, sheriff, Yorkshire
alive.1290/1300
____________________________________________
Sir Thomas Middleton=Eliza Gramary
____________________________________________
Sir Nicolas Middleton=Alice Stapleton
____________________________________________
John Middleton=Alice Mauleverer
____________________________________________
[source: above: Clay's 3. vol. Visitations]
____________________________________________
William Middleton=Margaret Hamerton
of Stockhyll
____________________________________________
John Middleton=Maud Thwaytes
____________________________________________
Sir Peter Middleton=Anne Vasavour
will:2 Apr 1499
____________________________________________
Sir William Middleton,Knight=Jane Dudley
____________________________________________
Thomas Middleton=Margaret Gascon
____________________________________________
[source: above: Visitation of Yorkshire,
1563-64, Wm Flower]
____________________________________________
Seeking to place in the Middleton pedigree,
Alice Middleton, died aft. 1491
____________________________________________
[Note 1: in parish church of Wakefield:
"Here lyeth buried Rickard Pek(Peck),esquire,
and Alce, his wief, daughter of Peter Middleton
of Stokeld, Knight, and had yssue 2 sons and 4
daughters. Richard Pek(Peck) dyed anno Domini
1516, 24 Junii."]
____________________________________________
[Note 2: pedigree of one of Alice Middleton's
sons, in part, printed in *The Publications of the
Surtees Society* for 1862 (vol. 41, p. 81):
"Richard Pek(Peck) maried (sic) Alice, doughter
(sic) of Middleton of Stokell (names one son,
not the other, and 4 daughters).]
____________________________________________
[Note 3: In 4 Henry VII 2-25 Nov 1488: "Richard
Pek(Peck) and Alice, his wife, appear as deforciants
....in large parish of Halifax, in the West Riding of
Yorkshire..."]
____________________________________________
[Note 4: in 6 Henry VII 15 Apr-8 May 1491:
"Richard Pek(Peck) and Alice, his wife, as
deforciants...."]
____________________________________________
[Note 5: Inquisition post Mortem on death of
Richard Pek(Peck) of Wakefield (co. York) Esq.,
held at Wentbridge (sic) 10 henry VIII 28 Aug
1518."]
____________________________________________
[Note 6: "William Middleton, Knight, with Thomas
Middleton, his son and heir, William Thwaites, Esq.,
of Marston...." re: an indenture created years earlier,
22 Henry VII 23 Jul 1507, arranging marriage of
son John of Alice Middleton and Richard Pek(Peck)
and disposition of land.
____________________________________________
FINDING SUMMARY of evidence, above:
(1)Alice Middleton was alive in 1488 and 1491,and
apparently died thereafter as her husband Richard
Pek(Peck) remarried.
(2)Alice Middleton was first wife of Richard Pek(Peck),
her pedigree entered in Tonge's Visitation, 1530, by
son John, therein said to be daughter of Middleton
of Stokell.
(3)in parish church she was named daughter of Peter
Middleton of Stokeld, knight.
(4)Alice Middleton was name in Inquisition post
Mortem of her husband as mother of 2 sons and 4
daughters.
_________________________________________________
CONCLUSIONS, based on pedigree and notes:
If said Alice Middleton, wife of Richard Pek(Peck)
is daughter of Sir Peter Middleton,d.2 Apr 1499,
whose wife was Anne Vavasour, then she was
the sister of Sir William Middleton, also son and
heir of Sir Peter Middleton, and Sir William, will
2 Aug 1549, died 11 Mar 1552. In 1993 article in
Ilkley Gazette of East Yorkshire, a William Middleton
who died in 1552 had requested burial next to his ancestor,
Sir Peter Middleton, knight and sheriff of Yorkshire,
who was buried in the parish church, c.1300, and
who was married to Eustacia Plumpton. Thus,
Alice Middleton is great-granddaughter of William
Middleton and his wife Margaret Hamerton.
Alice Middleton's brother Sir William was heir-enforcer
in 1516 on behalf of heirs or Richard Pek(Peck)
and his wife Alice Middleton, Sir William's sister.
Alice Middleton's grandmother Maud Thwaytes's
relative, William Thwaytes, was witness. Maud
Thwaytes father John died 1469.


Bill

***********************************************

--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:



Bill Arnold wrote:



Much thanks. I just got in mail Marshall's "Genealogist's
Guide" after talking with Gary Boyd Roberts. But I still
have the problem of getting the cited works.

For info, I am now concentrating on Middletons from
Sir Peter de Middleton,c.1300, down to William Middleton,
d.1552, who was his descendant. My concerns are near
the last descendants in that line. Particularly, I am
interested in locating my female andestor Middleton
who was more than likely born to the Middleton who
married Alice Mauleverer, and was probably a brother
of William Middleton who married Margaret Hamerton.


The usual way in genealogy, as you doubtless know, is to work backwards

from what you know, to what you don't know.

That said, the Visitation of Yorkshire 1563 gives:

William Mydelton of Stockhill married Margaret doughter of Sir Stephen
Hamerton of Wyckelsworth, com Ebor (in the county of Yorkshire). His
"son and heyr" was John Mydelton who married Mawde doughter of John
Thwaytes of Lofthowse.

William was the second son of Oliverus or Lodwicus Mydelton, nupcit (who
married) "Johanam filiam et heredem Johannis Granson" (Joan, daughter
and heir of John Granson). Their children were:
Edward*
William (married Margaret Hamerton)
Thomas
Anna
Johana
Johana (sic) nupta Leonardo Preston

No other spouses mentioned.

None of the Mydeltons in this extensive genealogy is stated to have
married a Mauleverer. The earliest Myddleton mentioned, is Thomas. A
Peter Middleton (etc) is not mentioned. By the same token, the
Mauleverer pedigree does not show any marriage to a Myddleton.
* Edward probably died young as he was not the heir.


Who, where and when was your female ancestor Middleton?

Renia


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Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 13 okt 2007 17:21:02

Thanks, Will. I will add this to the Sir Peter de Middleton
file.

Bill

**************************************


--- WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 10/12/07 09:27:38 Pacific Daylight Time, billarnoldfla@yahoo.com writes:
Sir Peter de Middleton=Eustacia de Plumpton
knight, sheriff, Yorkshire
alive.1290/1300
-----------------
He was yet living in 1328 when he witnessed a charter


Will Johnson



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Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 13 okt 2007 17:25:05

Thanks, Will. In the archives, someone confirmed this desecent
from the Clay's 3 vol. of, I believe, Dugdale, et al. Also, I do not
recall Isabel Plumpton in the line. Are you using her name as an
alternate for Alice?

Bill

**************************************************
--- WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

Bill the full line, as presented, is not possible.

In particular its highly unlikely that Isabel Plumpton, daughter of Sir William Plumpton "eldest
son" by his wife Elizabeth Stapleton figures in the line in the way you have described.

For Alice to be married and active on deeds in the 1490s, she has to be too old to be in this
descent. Sir William Plumpton is known to have been born on 7 Oct 1404 and died on 15 Oct
1480, his Stapleton wife was dead by 1450.

If you calculate approximate years backward yourself you will see that there is a problem.

Will Johnson

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Renia

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Renia » 13 okt 2007 17:41:41

Bill Arnold wrote:
Thanks, Renia.

I thought there were other Visitations which combined
give a fuller Middleton pedigree from Sir Peter Middleton,
c.1300.

Others may know of these visitations. I'm in Greece and can't get to
them, so, like you, I'm relying on online OCDs.

Are you suggesting that the William Middleton, d.1609,
was not a descendant of the Sir Peter Middleton line of
Yorkshire?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the earlier generations of
Middletons don't appear on Dugdale's 1665 Visitation of Yorkshire.

What I did think when I first saw your list, was that they were a list
of Middletons and their spouses, but in no particular order, because the
generations don't seem to match up.

Will Johnson seems to have had a similar impression.

As I said before, you need to go backwards, not forwards. Always a
fruitless task, unless you are doing a one-name study. Middleton, spellt
many different ways, is not an uncommon name.

Renia

Bill

******************************************************
--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:


Bill Arnold wrote:


Thanks, Will. In the archives, someone confirmed this desecent
from the Clay's 3 vol. of, I believe, Dugdale, et al. Also, I do not
recall Isabel Plumpton in the line. Are you using her name as an
alternate for Alice?

He's saying the pedigree does'nt work.

The Middletons of Stockeld in Dugdale's Visitation of 1665 begin with
William Middleton who died in 1609.

-------------------------------
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Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 13 okt 2007 17:45:05

Again, much thanks, Renia.

Re: the footnote, do we know who wrote it,
and when?

Also, there is additional evidence about the other son.
Others have commentated that John, heir, might have
intnetionally left his brother's name out of the pedigree:
for some unknown reason. I could speculate, but I am
not fully cognizant of all the wills and other court documents
about these principals, as yet. Also: apparently, John's
pedigree statements are contradicted by other visitations,
and other evidence. Thanks for this, though. Are you
aware of the other evidence.

The other son married a daughter of Sir John Leeke,
who was the grandfather of Robert Pek(Peke) Peck,
the Elder. Best evidence is she was Margery Leeke.

Bill

*************************************************



--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:

According to the pedigree of the Peck family of Wakefield in Flowers
Visitation of 1563/4, page 236:

Richard Pecke, son and heyr, married a doter of Mydelton of Stokeld.

A footnote says he was:

Sir William [Mydelton]. Her daughter Anne became the wife of Henry Allen
of Grantham. The footnote cites the Visitation of Wiltshire, ed Walter C
Metcalfe, 1881, page 2.

Their children are named as:
John
Margaret
Ann
Elsabeth
Izabell

Renia


Bill Arnold wrote:

Thanks much., Renia.

Here Is what I have:

So: I seek confirmation of the found data, the Middleton
pedigree: seeking any missing information and corrections
of anything which is incorrect.

Sir Peter de Middleton=Eustacia de Plumpton
knight, sheriff, Yorkshire
alive.1290/1300
____________________________________________
Sir Thomas Middleton=Eliza Gramary
____________________________________________
Sir Nicolas Middleton=Alice Stapleton
____________________________________________
John Middleton=Alice Mauleverer
____________________________________________
[source: above: Clay's 3. vol. Visitations]
____________________________________________
William Middleton=Margaret Hamerton
of Stockhyll
____________________________________________
John Middleton=Maud Thwaytes
____________________________________________
Sir Peter Middleton=Anne Vasavour
will:2 Apr 1499
____________________________________________
Sir William Middleton,Knight=Jane Dudley
____________________________________________
Thomas Middleton=Margaret Gascon
____________________________________________
[source: above: Visitation of Yorkshire,
1563-64, Wm Flower]
____________________________________________
Seeking to place in the Middleton pedigree,
Alice Middleton, died aft. 1491
____________________________________________
[Note 1: in parish church of Wakefield:
"Here lyeth buried Rickard Pek(Peck),esquire,
and Alce, his wief, daughter of Peter Middleton
of Stokeld, Knight, and had yssue 2 sons and 4
daughters. Richard Pek(Peck) dyed anno Domini
1516, 24 Junii."]
____________________________________________
[Note 2: pedigree of one of Alice Middleton's
sons, in part, printed in *The Publications of the
Surtees Society* for 1862 (vol. 41, p. 81):
"Richard Pek(Peck) maried (sic) Alice, doughter
(sic) of Middleton of Stokell (names one son,
not the other, and 4 daughters).]
____________________________________________
[Note 3: In 4 Henry VII 2-25 Nov 1488: "Richard
Pek(Peck) and Alice, his wife, appear as deforciants
....in large parish of Halifax, in the West Riding of
Yorkshire..."]
____________________________________________
[Note 4: in 6 Henry VII 15 Apr-8 May 1491:
"Richard Pek(Peck) and Alice, his wife, as
deforciants...."]
____________________________________________
[Note 5: Inquisition post Mortem on death of
Richard Pek(Peck) of Wakefield (co. York) Esq.,
held at Wentbridge (sic) 10 henry VIII 28 Aug
1518."]
____________________________________________
[Note 6: "William Middleton, Knight, with Thomas
Middleton, his son and heir, William Thwaites, Esq.,
of Marston...." re: an indenture created years earlier,
22 Henry VII 23 Jul 1507, arranging marriage of
son John of Alice Middleton and Richard Pek(Peck)
and disposition of land.
____________________________________________
FINDING SUMMARY of evidence, above:
(1)Alice Middleton was alive in 1488 and 1491,and
apparently died thereafter as her husband Richard
Pek(Peck) remarried.
(2)Alice Middleton was first wife of Richard Pek(Peck),
her pedigree entered in Tonge's Visitation, 1530, by
son John, therein said to be daughter of Middleton
of Stokell.
(3)in parish church she was named daughter of Peter
Middleton of Stokeld, knight.
(4)Alice Middleton was name in Inquisition post
Mortem of her husband as mother of 2 sons and 4
daughters.
_________________________________________________
CONCLUSIONS, based on pedigree and notes:
If said Alice Middleton, wife of Richard Pek(Peck)
is daughter of Sir Peter Middleton,d.2 Apr 1499,
whose wife was Anne Vavasour, then she was
the sister of Sir William Middleton, also son and
heir of Sir Peter Middleton, and Sir William, will
2 Aug 1549, died 11 Mar 1552. In 1993 article in
Ilkley Gazette of East Yorkshire, a William Middleton
who died in 1552 had requested burial next to his ancestor,
Sir Peter Middleton, knight and sheriff of Yorkshire,
who was buried in the parish church, c.1300, and
who was married to Eustacia Plumpton. Thus,
Alice Middleton is great-granddaughter of William
Middleton and his wife Margaret Hamerton.
Alice Middleton's brother Sir William was heir-enforcer
in 1516 on behalf of heirs or Richard Pek(Peck)
and his wife Alice Middleton, Sir William's sister.
Alice Middleton's grandmother Maud Thwaytes's
relative, William Thwaytes, was witness. Maud
Thwaytes father John died 1469.


Bill

***********************************************

--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:


Bill Arnold wrote:


Much thanks. I just got in mail Marshall's "Genealogist's
Guide" after talking with Gary Boyd Roberts. But I still
have the problem of getting the cited works.

For info, I am now concentrating on Middletons from
Sir Peter de Middleton,c.1300, down to William Middleton,
d.1552, who was his descendant. My concerns are near
the last descendants in that line. Particularly, I am
interested in locating my female andestor Middleton
who was more than likely born to the Middleton who
married Alice Mauleverer, and was probably a brother
of William Middleton who married Margaret Hamerton.


The usual way in genealogy, as you doubtless know, is to work backwards
from what you know, to what you don't know.

That said, the Visitation of Yorkshire 1563 gives:

William Mydelton of Stockhill married Margaret doughter of Sir Stephen
Hamerton of Wyckelsworth, com Ebor (in the county of Yorkshire). His
"son and heyr" was John Mydelton who married Mawde doughter of John
Thwaytes of Lofthowse.

William was the second son of Oliverus or Lodwicus Mydelton, nupcit (who
married) "Johanam filiam et heredem Johannis Granson" (Joan, daughter
and heir of John Granson). Their children were:
Edward*
William (married Margaret Hamerton)
Thomas
Anna
Johana
Johana (sic) nupta Leonardo Preston

No other spouses mentioned.

None of the Mydeltons in this extensive genealogy is stated to have
married a Mauleverer. The earliest Myddleton mentioned, is Thomas. A
Peter Middleton (etc) is not mentioned. By the same token, the
Mauleverer pedigree does not show any marriage to a Myddleton.
* Edward probably died young as he was not the heir.


Who, where and when was your female ancestor Middleton?

Renia

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____________________________________________________________________________________
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Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 13 okt 2007 17:55:05

Thanks, Renia.

I thought there were other Visitations which combined
give a fuller Middleton pedigree from Sir Peter Middleton,
c.1300.

Are you suggesting that the William Middleton, d.1609,
was not a descendant of the Sir Peter Middleton line of
Yorkshire?

Bill

******************************************************
--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:

Bill Arnold wrote:

Thanks, Will. In the archives, someone confirmed this desecent
from the Clay's 3 vol. of, I believe, Dugdale, et al. Also, I do not
recall Isabel Plumpton in the line. Are you using her name as an
alternate for Alice?

He's saying the pedigree does'nt work.

The Middletons of Stockeld in Dugdale's Visitation of 1665 begin with
William Middleton who died in 1609.

-------------------------------
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____________________________________________________________________________________
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Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 13 okt 2007 20:20:05

Thanks again, Renia.

I am still puzzled.

Some one on the list send me a reference to a compilation
of earlier Visitations in a 3 vol. by Clay. It was to
gen-medieval, all members, and it is in the Middleton
archive. It stated that the pedigree from Sir Peter
Middleton, c.1300, down to the Middleton who married
Alice Mauleverer was confirmed by English Visitations.

So, I wonder specifically what Will is challenging. He
cited names NOT in the Clay citation. I understand he
did not accept the citation, but if it was an English
Visitation, historically dated, then specifics need to
be cited to challenge it. That is my opinion, to be
sure.

Bill

**********************************************
--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:

Bill Arnold wrote:
Thanks, Renia.

I thought there were other Visitations which combined
give a fuller Middleton pedigree from Sir Peter Middleton,
c.1300.

Others may know of these visitations. I'm in Greece and can't get to
them, so, like you, I'm relying on online OCDs.


Are you suggesting that the William Middleton, d.1609,
was not a descendant of the Sir Peter Middleton line of
Yorkshire?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the earlier generations of
Middletons don't appear on Dugdale's 1665 Visitation of Yorkshire.

What I did think when I first saw your list, was that they were a list
of Middletons and their spouses, but in no particular order, because the
generations don't seem to match up.

Will Johnson seems to have had a similar impression.

As I said before, you need to go backwards, not forwards. Always a
fruitless task, unless you are doing a one-name study. Middleton, spellt
many different ways, is not an uncommon name.

Renia


Bill

******************************************************
--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:


Bill Arnold wrote:


Thanks, Will. In the archives, someone confirmed this desecent
from the Clay's 3 vol. of, I believe, Dugdale, et al. Also, I do not
recall Isabel Plumpton in the line. Are you using her name as an
alternate for Alice?

He's saying the pedigree does'nt work.

The Middletons of Stockeld in Dugdale's Visitation of 1665 begin with
William Middleton who died in 1609.

-------------------------------
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the
word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message





____________________________________________________________________________________
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http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658

-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Rhodolphus Ellmes

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 okt 2007 20:35:05

Perhaps these Elms of Henley-on-Thames shown in the site you give are
connected to the John Elms of Henley who married Elizabeth Browne d&h of William
Browne of Stamford, Lincs. William was a rich wool merchant who, with his
brother, restored one of the churches in Stamford. He also founded Stamford
Hospital

This Elizabeth Elms is mentioned in the following deed of gift

Simcoe family of Devon; Title Deeds, Northants File Ref 1038 M/T/13/7
Deed of gift in tail
1. John Taillor, clerk and Henry Wykes, clerk
2. Elizabeth Elmes widow of John Elmes of Henley on Thames, Oxon., merchant
of the 'Stapule calicie', and daughter and heiress of William Broun of
Stamford, Lincs., merchant of the same staple
Premises: manor of Swynsted, Lincs., manor of Wolsehouse, Rutland, manors of
Papley and Lilford, Northants., manor of Hogyngton, Cambs., also lands and
tenements in Swynsted, Wytham, Staunford, Brodyng, Bredcroft, Great and Little
Casterton, Lincs., Warmyngton, Papley, Ogerston, Pokbroke, [ac: Polebrook]
Artelyngborough, Lylford, Wyxsthorpp, Achirche, Pylton and Benefeld,
Northants., and Hogyngton, Cambs., which 1. held with John Verney Knt., Guy Wolston
Knt., Robert Harecourt Knt., Robert Brudewell and others by deed from 2.
The premises are to be held by 2. for life, and after her death by William
Elmes, son of Elizabeth, and his heirs. If William dies without heirs, the
premises remain to John, brother of William, and his heirs
Attornies: John Colston and John Holyngton
Witnesses: William Warner vicar of Lilford, William Cook of Oundell
merchant, Robert Beamond, William Baker, of Papley, Henry Elyss, William Aburn of
Lylford, Richard Mower of Wytham, Henry Watgott, John Webster, John Maxsey of
Swynsted, Robert Stelyngton
Date: 20 December, 15 Henry VII [1499]
(PRO A2A; Devon Record Office: Simcoe)

Quite a few properties there then. It is interesting to note that one of
the properties is Pokbroke, [ac: Polebrook]. In the past there have been posts
here regarding a Nicholas Browne of Polebrook, N'hants (-PCC Will 1608) that
he is the same as in the following:

WASHINGTON, Richard, gent., of St Martin-in-the Fields, bachelor, 46, and
Frances Browne, of same, spinster, 27, daughter of Nicholas Browne, deceased –
at St. Martin-in-the-Fields. 14 April, 1627. Bp of London’s Office
(Joseph Foster’s London marriages Licences.1521-1869, p 1423)

Regards,
Adrian


In a message dated 08/10/2007 15:50:25 GMT Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

About a year ago, I posted the following, on the possible origin of
Rhodolphus Elmes of Scituate, Mass.:


I would like to draw attention to a nice webpage that I believe has
helped to clarify the English origin of an American settler, Rodolphus
Elmes of Scituate in Plymouth Colony (later in the Massachusetts Bay):

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... ies09.html

<snip>

Renia

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Renia » 13 okt 2007 20:59:39

The 1563 visitation by Flowers has 4 Middleton (various spellings)
pedigrees on pages 206, 208, 209, 210.


THAT ON PAGE 206 BEGINS THUS:

Thomas Mydelton. His 2nd son:
Ricardus de Mydelton = Aliciam filiam de Thomae Mydelton de Comitatu
Lancastre (Alice, daughter of Thomas Mydelton of Lancashire). Their
numerous children (mostly daughters) include a son:

D. Oliverus or Lodwicus Mydelton = Johanam filiam et heredem Johannis
Granson. Their children (presumably D2):
Edward
William
Thomas
Anna
Johann
Johana = Leonard Preston


THAT ON PAGE 208 BEGINS THUS:
Sir John Mydelton of Belso*. His son and heyr:

Thomas Mydelton = Elenor doughter of Roland Tempest of Homesyde. Their
sons were Thomas, William and Gilbert (eventual heir). Two further
generations.

*Footnote as to his marriage.


THAT ON PAGE 209 BEGINS THUS:

Thomas Mydelton of Barnard Castle = One of the doughters and heyrs of
Sir John Hedlam knight of Cleveland in Yorkshire. (Descendants are
included for 3 generations.)



THAT ON PAGE 210 BEGINS THUS:

William Mydelton* of Stockel = Margaret doughter of Sir Stephen Hamerton
of Wyckelsworth, com Ebor. Their son and heyr:

John Mydelton = Mawde dau of John Thwaytes of Lofthowse. Their son and heyr:

Sir Piers Mydelton, knight = Ann doughter of Henry Vavasor of Haselwod.
(Descendants are included for 2 generations). Sir Piers = 2ndly Izabell
Dighton. (Descendants are included for 1 generation.)

A footnote re William Mydelton says: "First in D2".



The earlier Middletons you mention from 1300 onwards, do not appear in
these pedigrees.


The 1665 visitation by Dugdale does not include the people you need.

However, the Newberry Library of Chicago has:

Dugdales's visitation of Yorkshire with additions. Edited by J.W. Clay.
Exeter: Pollard, 1899. Call #: F0745.242.

The "additions" mean the data does not appear in any visitations, but
the editor has included extra work by other genealogists.

http://www.newberry.org/genealogy/yorkshire.html

Renia



Bill Arnold wrote:

Thanks again, Renia.

I am still puzzled.

Some one on the list send me a reference to a compilation
of earlier Visitations in a 3 vol. by Clay. It was to
gen-medieval, all members, and it is in the Middleton
archive. It stated that the pedigree from Sir Peter
Middleton, c.1300, down to the Middleton who married
Alice Mauleverer was confirmed by English Visitations.

So, I wonder specifically what Will is challenging. He
cited names NOT in the Clay citation. I understand he
did not accept the citation, but if it was an English
Visitation, historically dated, then specifics need to
be cited to challenge it. That is my opinion, to be
sure.

Bill

**********************************************
--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:


Bill Arnold wrote:

Thanks, Renia.

I thought there were other Visitations which combined
give a fuller Middleton pedigree from Sir Peter Middleton,
c.1300.

Others may know of these visitations. I'm in Greece and can't get to
them, so, like you, I'm relying on online OCDs.


Are you suggesting that the William Middleton, d.1609,
was not a descendant of the Sir Peter Middleton line of
Yorkshire?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the earlier generations of
Middletons don't appear on Dugdale's 1665 Visitation of Yorkshire.

What I did think when I first saw your list, was that they were a list
of Middletons and their spouses, but in no particular order, because the
generations don't seem to match up.

Will Johnson seems to have had a similar impression.

As I said before, you need to go backwards, not forwards. Always a
fruitless task, unless you are doing a one-name study. Middleton, spellt
many different ways, is not an uncommon name.

Renia


Bill

******************************************************
--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:



Bill Arnold wrote:



Thanks, Will. In the archives, someone confirmed this desecent

from the Clay's 3 vol. of, I believe, Dugdale, et al. Also, I do not

recall Isabel Plumpton in the line. Are you using her name as an
alternate for Alice?

He's saying the pedigree does'nt work.

The Middletons of Stockeld in Dugdale's Visitation of 1665 begin with
William Middleton who died in 1609.

Gjest

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 okt 2007 23:37:04

Dear Will and others.
Looking back at prior Threads on the
Cudworth / Machell / Lewknor connection I found I had made a reference to the Paul C
Reed article mentioned in GBR`s 1st edition of RD600 which was described as
being based in part on the wills of Mary`s grandfather Edward Lewknor (III) and
of John Machell (I`m betting on her brother, rather than her paternal
grandfather).
A webpage on the Stoughton family which says She was Cudworth`s widow by
1624 and in that year became the 1st wife of John , son of Thomas and Katherine
( ) Stoughton of Naughton, Suffolk, England. She died in abt 1634
her husband marrying his 2nd wife Jane Brown in 1635.
_http://www.2/crocker.com/~jcamp/ts.html_
(http://www.2/crocker.com/~jcamp/ts.html)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

ps I seem to recall that Paul`s Cudworth article was supposed to appear
when They had sutticient room for it in NEHGR. I don`t know if that is still
the plan or not. Also, I may be thinking of the wrong publication.




************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Diana, Princess Of Wales & Continuing Mindless Celebrity

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 okt 2007 23:57:17

Bingo!

DSH

"allan connochie" <conncohies@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:_FbQi.31696$aN2.1086@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...

Besides none of these issues Diana spoke would be regarded as specifically
political issues or controversial in any way. All the major UK parties
would claim to approve of humanitarian issues and disapprove of landmines
etc. Once she was no longer HRH no doubt she could have made real comments
on real sticky political issues, but let's face it, had she done so - who
woul have cared what she thought anyway? She was becoming a real figure of
ridicule and only her early and sudden death turned her into some kind of
St Diana!

Allan

Gjest

Re: Compleete Peerage Addition: Sir Thomas Mortimer, husband

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2007 01:39:06

Hi Will

Page 56 PA " daughter of Michael de Poynings, Knt. 1st Lord
Poynings,by Joan, daughter of Richard Rokesley"

You have MCA Page etc



Brendan Wilson

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:56:02 -0700, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

Brendan as far as I know, Douglas doesn't *have* a set of corrections to MCA or PA for that matter. If the Rokesley error is in PA, then perhaps someone can find the page, and section and send me a correction page that I can put up on my site where I have the the PA corrections

http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... t_Ancestry

Will Johnson

To Reply: remove Bkts and word DOT and put a dot. Stops Spam

Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 14 okt 2007 02:05:03

Before this thread disappears, can anyone tell me about the ancestors of
Anne Middleton born 1397 who married Sir John Manners. She was apparently
the daughter of Sir John Middleton, and that's all the information I have.

Any idea where they might fit in?

Merilyn







-------Original Message-------



From: Renia

Date: 10/14/07 05:30:16

To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft.1491



The 1563 visitation by Flowers has 4 Middleton (various spellings)

pedigrees on pages 206, 208, 209, 210.





THAT ON PAGE 206 BEGINS THUS:



Thomas Mydelton. His 2nd son:

Ricardus de Mydelton = Aliciam filiam de Thomae Mydelton de Comitatu

Lancastre (Alice, daughter of Thomas Mydelton of Lancashire). Their

numerous children (mostly daughters) include a son:



D. Oliverus or Lodwicus Mydelton = Johanam filiam et heredem Johannis

Granson. Their children (presumably D2):

Edward

William

Thomas

Anna

Johann

Johana = Leonard Preston





THAT ON PAGE 208 BEGINS THUS:

Sir John Mydelton of Belso*. His son and heyr:



Thomas Mydelton = Elenor doughter of Roland Tempest of Homesyde. Their

sons were Thomas, William and Gilbert (eventual heir). Two further

generations.



*Footnote as to his marriage.





THAT ON PAGE 209 BEGINS THUS:



Thomas Mydelton of Barnard Castle = One of the doughters and heyrs of

Sir John Hedlam knight of Cleveland in Yorkshire. (Descendants are

included for 3 generations.)







THAT ON PAGE 210 BEGINS THUS:



William Mydelton* of Stockel = Margaret doughter of Sir Stephen Hamerton

of Wyckelsworth, com Ebor. Their son and heyr:



John Mydelton = Mawde dau of John Thwaytes of Lofthowse. Their son and heyr:



Sir Piers Mydelton, knight = Ann doughter of Henry Vavasor of Haselwod.

(Descendants are included for 2 generations). Sir Piers = 2ndly Izabell

Dighton. (Descendants are included for 1 generation.)



A footnote re William Mydelton says: "First in D2".







The earlier Middletons you mention from 1300 onwards, do not appear in

these pedigrees.





The 1665 visitation by Dugdale does not include the people you need.



However, the Newberry Library of Chicago has:



Dugdales's visitation of Yorkshire with additions. Edited by J.W. Clay.

Exeter: Pollard, 1899. Call #: F0745.242.



The "additions" mean the data does not appear in any visitations, but

the editor has included extra work by other genealogists.



http://www.newberry.org/genealogy/yorkshire.html



Renia







Bill Arnold wrote:



Thanks again, Renia.



I am still puzzled.



Some one on the list send me a reference to a compilation

of earlier Visitations in a 3 vol. by Clay. It was to

gen-medieval, all members, and it is in the Middleton

archive. It stated that the pedigree from Sir Peter

Middleton, c.1300, down to the Middleton who married

Alice Mauleverer was confirmed by English Visitations.



So, I wonder specifically what Will is challenging. He

cited names NOT in the Clay citation. I understand he

did not accept the citation, but if it was an English

Visitation, historically dated, then specifics need to

be cited to challenge it. That is my opinion, to be

sure.



Bill



**********************************************

--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:





Bill Arnold wrote:



Thanks, Renia.



I thought there were other Visitations which combined

give a fuller Middleton pedigree from Sir Peter Middleton,

c.1300.



Others may know of these visitations. I'm in Greece and can't get to

them, so, like you, I'm relying on online OCDs.





Are you suggesting that the William Middleton, d.1609,

was not a descendant of the Sir Peter Middleton line of

Yorkshire?



I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying the earlier generations of

Middletons don't appear on Dugdale's 1665 Visitation of Yorkshire.



What I did think when I first saw your list, was that they were a list

of Middletons and their spouses, but in no particular order, because the

generations don't seem to match up.



Will Johnson seems to have had a similar impression.



As I said before, you need to go backwards, not forwards. Always a

fruitless task, unless you are doing a one-name study. Middleton, spellt

many different ways, is not an uncommon name.



Renia





Bill



******************************************************

--- Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:







Bill Arnold wrote:







Thanks, Will. In the archives, someone confirmed this desecent



from the Clay's 3 vol. of, I believe, Dugdale, et al. Also, I do not



recall Isabel Plumpton in the line. Are you using her name as an

alternate for Alice?



He's saying the pedigree does'nt work.



The Middletons of Stockeld in Dugdale's Visitation of 1665 begin with

William Middleton who died in 1609.



-------------------------------

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Renia

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Renia » 14 okt 2007 02:22:39

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:

Before this thread disappears, can anyone tell me about the ancestors of
Anne Middleton born 1397 who married Sir John Manners. She was apparently
the daughter of Sir John Middleton, and that's all the information I have.

Any idea where they might fit in?

Merilyn



Flower's Visitation of 1563 gives some info in a footnote to the Ogle
family, on page 233. The pedigree begins with:

King Edward the First, had a son:
Thomas Brotherton, Marshall of England, had a daughter:
Margaret Brotherton, who married 1stly, Lord John Mowbray and had issue:
Elizabeth Segrave = Lord John Mowbray
Genet = Sir Thomas Grey, Lord of Horton in Northumberland, had issue:
Sir John Grey, Earl of Tankerville and Lord Powes, had issue:
Mawde Grey = Sir Robert Ogle, knight, their daughter:
Johanna = Robert Manners, knight and had issue:
Sir Robert Manners of whom "therl of Rutland is descended".

The footnote says:
This Sir Robert Manners was son of Sir John, who died in 1438, by Agnes
daughter of Sir John Middleton of Belsay. The marriage of his
great-granddaughter Katherine, niece of King Edward the Fourth, is given
on page 66 of this work.

The Middleton pedigree does not mention any of this but there is a
footnote to Sir John Mydleton of Belso on page 208:

Sir John Middleton, knight, of Belsay, married Christian, daughter and
eventual heir of Sir John de Strivelyn, summoned as a Baron 1342-1371,
by Barbara, sister and co-heir of Adam de Swinburn, and had a son, John,
M.P. for Northumberland 1417.

Renia

Gjest

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2007 02:26:03

In a message dated 10/13/2007 11:15:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
billarnoldfla@yahoo.com writes:

It stated that the pedigree from Sir Peter
Middleton, c.1300, down to the Middleton who married
Alice Mauleverer was confirmed by English Visitations.

So, I wonder specifically what Will is challenging.


-------------------
I did cite specifics Bill. You posted a line including Isabel Plumpton. I
pointed out that she could not be in the place specified. Look back at your
posting. Bill, the simple fact that a person appears in a Visitation is not
sufficient to conclude that they are accurately placed. You must also rely
on other factors. Chronology is a bit one. If she is too young to be a
grandmother or great-grandmother or whatever, than that must be accepted.

Visitations are not to be accepted at face-value as facts, they are
evidence, other evidence can refute them. If you view the archives you can find
visitation corrections.

If you have accurately posted where somebody put Isabel Plumpton, then its
simply a fact that she cannot be in that position chronologically. She is too
young, based on the other documents you posted, showing her descendent Alice
active in documents in the 1490s.

Will Johnson



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Gjest

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2007 02:31:02

<<In a message dated 10/13/2007 12:01:14 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
billarnoldfla@yahoo.com writes:

You might understand this all better than
I, but I am trying to resolve the Middletons and need
more than a dismissal of documented Visitation cited
by members of this list.>>


-------------
Bill I think you're unclear on exactly what Visitations are. They are not
necessarily secondary works based on underlying primary documents. We'd like
to think they are, but there is, in general, no way to show that they are.
They have to be considered as primary documents, that is, as documents
generating, in their own right "facts". They *may* accord exactly to other primary
documents, but we cannot conclude necessarily that they are secondary (i.e. a
compilation of primary documents). In some cases they may be merely a
recording of the memory of the signer, just like a person today, taking a family
history interview, is creating a primary document "Who are your parents?",
"When were they born?". A family history interview is a primary document, and
these visitations may be as well.

Having said that, we then have to understand, that the memory of the
interviewee may be faulty, especially regarding events that occurred 50, 80, or 200
years before they were born. We have to treat the visitations that purport
to record such things with a healthy dose of skepticism. They are evidence,
they are not proofs.

Will Johnson



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John Higgins

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av John Higgins » 14 okt 2007 03:38:13

I'm as bewildered as Bill Arnold by Will Johnson's mention of Isabel
Plumpton, dau. of Sir William Plumpton and his 1st wife Elizabeth
Stapleton - especially since I can find no reference to Alice Plumpton in
any of Bill Arnold's posts. The only Plumpton that Bill mentioned is
Eustacia, several generations earlier. There may in fact be a problem in
the proposed pedigree but it's likely not in the Middleton segments - and
Isabel Plumpton is not the problem.

As I underestand it, Bill is trying to place Alice Middleton, wife of
Richard Peck. She is in fact mentioned in Clay's edition [with additions]
of Dugdale's 1664-5 Visitation of Yorkshire. The Middleton of Stockeld
pedigree going back from her is, per Clay:

Sir Peter Middleton (d. ca. 1499), m. Anne, dau. of Sir Henry Vavasour of
Hazlewood
Sir John Middleton, m. Matilda, dau. of Sir John Thwaites of Lofthouse
William Middleton (will 1474), m. Margaret, dau. of Sir Stephen Hamerton of
Wigglesworth
Sir John Middleton, m. Alice, dau. of Sir Peter Mauleverer of Beamsley
Sir Nicholas Middleton; m. (2 of 3) Avice, dau. of Sir Gilbert Stapleton
Sir Thomas Middleton (prob. d. before March 1393), m. Eliza, dau. of Sir
Henry Gramary
Sir Peter Middleton, m. Eustacia, dau. of Sir Robert Plumpton
[and five more generations before this]

Alice Plumpton gets into this through the Hamerton marriage. Margaret
Hamerton who mar. William Middleton (d. 1474) is identified in Dugdale's
Middleton pedigree as daughter of Sir Steven Hamerton. In pedigrees of the
Hamerton family in visitations and other sources (e.g., Thomas Dunham
Whitaker's "Deanery of Craven"), Margaret is said to be a dau. of Sir
Stephen by his wife Isabel Plumpton - yes, THAT Isabel. The problem is that
Sir Stephen is said to have died 1500/1 per his IPM. Although this likely
presents no problems with the Plumpton chronology that Will mentions below,
it is problematic to give Sir Stephen a son-in-law who died 27 years before
him, as the pedigrees indicate. It seems possible that Margaret Hamerton
was in fact a sister, rather than daughter, of Sir Stephen Hamerton - but
this is only a guess.

Since Will has introduced Isabel Plumpton into the picture, does this help
to clarify things a bit and put her in a proper context?

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft.1491


Bill the full line, as presented, is not possible.

In particular its highly unlikely that Isabel Plumpton, daughter of Sir
William Plumpton "eldest son" by his wife Elizabeth Stapleton figures in the

line in the way you have described.
For Alice to be married and active on deeds in the 1490s, she has to be
too old to be in this descent. Sir William Plumpton is known to have been

born on 7 Oct 1404 and died on 15 Oct 1480, his Stapleton wife was dead by
1450.
If you calculate approximate years backward yourself you will see that
there is a problem.

Will Johnson

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Gjest

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2007 04:30:04

Dear Merilyn, Renia, Will and others,
Maud Gray who married
about May 21, 1399 Sir Robert Ogle, Kt. of Ogle , Northumberland was the
daughter of Sir Thomas Gray, kt of Heton by his wife Joan Mowbray, daughter of
John Mowbray, 4th Baron Mowbray of Thirsk, co. York . John Gray, Earl of
Tankerville was her brother , not her father. Maud`s son -in-law, husband of her
daughter Joan Ogle was Sir Robert Manners , kt. of Etal , Northumberland was the
son of Sir John Manners, kt. by his wife Anne Middleton, daughter of Sir John
Middleton of East Swinburn, Northumberland. so the Middletons were on the
opposite side of the family tree. Robert and Joan (Ogle) Manners became the
parents of Sir Robert Manners , Kt. who married Eleanor de Roos, their son George
Manners married King Edward IV`s niece Anne St Leger and inherited the Barony
of Roos of Hamlake. Their daughter Katherine Manners married Sir Robert
Constable, kt. of Everingham, co York (See Faris Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd edition
articles Mowbray, Gray, Heron, Manners and Stapleton )
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

John Higgins

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av John Higgins » 14 okt 2007 04:39:04

I think it's very unwise to broadly categorize visitations as "primary
documents", given most of what's now available in published form as
"Visitations". The original visitations (i.e., the actual interviews with
the families) are fairly called primary documents. But this strictly
applies only to original ducments now held in various offices in London if
you can access them. Virtually everything that's available as published
"Visitations" involves compilations, amendments, additions, and other
revisions to the oroginal documents and not simply publishing the documents
themselves. This often makes them better as sources than the original
documents since they may have, for example, been enhanced and validated with
information from wills, parish registers, and other records. But what's
published as 'visitations" are almost invariably NOT primary documents.

Tim Powys Lybbe has posted on the reliability of visitations a number of
times in the past. His messages in the archives are well worth reading.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <billarnoldfla@yahoo.com>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft.1491


In a message dated 10/13/2007 12:01:14 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
billarnoldfla@yahoo.com writes:

You might understand this all better than
I, but I am trying to resolve the Middletons and need
more than a dismissal of documented Visitation cited
by members of this list.


-------------
Bill I think you're unclear on exactly what Visitations are. They are
not
necessarily secondary works based on underlying primary documents. We'd
like
to think they are, but there is, in general, no way to show that they
are.
They have to be considered as primary documents, that is, as documents
generating, in their own right "facts". They *may* accord exactly to
other primary
documents, but we cannot conclude necessarily that they are secondary
(i.e. a
compilation of primary documents). In some cases they may be merely a
recording of the memory of the signer, just like a person today, taking a
family
history interview, is creating a primary document "Who are your
parents?",
"When were they born?". A family history interview is a primary
document, and
these visitations may be as well.

Having said that, we then have to understand, that the memory of the
interviewee may be faulty, especially regarding events that occurred 50,
80, or 200
years before they were born. We have to treat the visitations that
purport
to record such things with a healthy dose of skepticism. They are
evidence,
they are not proofs.

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's new at
http://www.aol.com

-------------------------------
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Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 14 okt 2007 04:41:02

Dear Renia, James, Will, etc.
Now it's getting clearer. Thanks for the information.
And, Will, I've had success with Stirnet too. Had an e-mail from Peter
Barns-Graham who has sorted out the problem.
Best wishes
Merilyn

-------Original Message-------

From: Jwc1870@aol.com
Date: 10/14/07 11:59:08
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com
Subject: Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft.1491

Dear Merilyn, Renia, Will and others,
Maud Gray who married
about May 21, 1399 Sir Robert Ogle, Kt. of Ogle , Northumberland was the
daughter of Sir Thomas Gray, kt of Heton by his wife Joan Mowbray, daughter
of
John Mowbray, 4th Baron Mowbray of Thirsk, co. York . John Gray, Earl of
Tankerville was her brother , not her father. Maud`s son -in-law, husband of
her
daughter Joan Ogle was Sir Robert Manners , kt. of Etal , Northumberland
was the
son of Sir John Manners, kt. by his wife Anne Middleton, daughter of Sir
John
Middleton of East Swinburn, Northumberland. so the Middletons were on the
opposite side of the family tree. Robert and Joan (Ogle) Manners became the
parents of Sir Robert Manners , Kt. who married Eleanor de Roos, their son
George
Manners married King Edward IV`s niece Anne St Leger and inherited the
Barony
of Roos of Hamlake. Their daughter Katherine Manners married Sir Robert
Constable, kt. of Everingham, co York (See Faris Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd
edition
articles Mowbray, Gray, Heron, Manners and Stapleton )
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

-------------------------------
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John Higgins

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av John Higgins » 14 okt 2007 05:44:11

The more conservative approach would be to regard the published "visitations" as NOT primary documents, unless you have a great deal of certainty about their provenance. Most users of these publications probably don't have either the inclination or the time or the ability to delve deeply into the origins of these publications, so they would best advised to regard them as secondary documents - which in most cases is probably the proper categorization.

Or, to put it another way, precisely because "we do not know what sources were used if any", we should not consider the published visitations to be primary documents.

But this is somewhat academic - if you insist on the "gold standard" of support from primary documents for every aspect of your medieval genealogy, you're going to have a pretty sparse genealogy. We have to work with what we've got and recognize the limitations. But don't make it worse by calling things "primary documents" that really aren't.

----- Original Message -----
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: jthiggins@sbcglobal.net ; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft.1491


<<In a message dated 10/13/2007 8:48:23 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
This often makes them better as sources than the original
documents since they may have, for example, been enhanced and validated with
information from wills, parish registers, and other records. >>
-------------------------
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. That's the problem. I did not say they *are* primary documents, I said we have to treat them as such, because we do not know what sources were used if any. We cannot now, at this distance, with ease, separate the primary material from the additions.

That's the problem.
Will Johnson





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Gjest

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2007 06:25:03

<<In a message dated 10/13/2007 8:48:23 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

This often makes them better as sources than the original
documents since they may have, for example, been enhanced and validated with
information from wills, parish registers, and other records. >>


-------------------------
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. That's the problem. I did not say they
*are* primary documents, I said we have to treat them as such, because we do not
know what sources were used if any. We cannot now, at this distance, with
ease, separate the primary material from the additions.

That's the problem.
Will Johnson



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2007 06:35:04

Well poop.

Obviously I've muddled things and have *something* in my notes, which didn't
come through in the discussion. I'll have to go back and see how and why I
made the connection to the Plumptons, but that will have to wait until Monday
when I get back to my office where all my notes are.

Will Kpjmspm



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Gjest

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2007 06:55:03

In a message dated 10/13/2007 9:46:57 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

Or, to put it another way, precisely because "we do not know what sources
were used if any", we should not consider the published visitations to be
primary documents.>>>



---------
You are mistaking my meaning. Bill was believing that the visitations are
somehow "verified". In that light, I am stating that we cannot say they are
verified in any way.

That's the whole point.

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 okt 2007 06:58:02

In a message dated 10/13/2007 9:46:57 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

But don't make it worse by calling things "primary documents" that really
aren't.>>



------------
We don't know if they are, we don't know if they're not.
We can't say they are not, we can't say they are.
Do you not agree that we not know ?

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 14 okt 2007 17:52:03

Very much thanks, John.

In a separate post I hope to post something about
the first Sir Peter who married Eusatcia Plumpton.

I hope to see your response.

Also, thanks to all who have attempted to put forth
a CORRECTED Middleton pedigree.

Unless my eyes deceive me, I do believe John Higgins,
Gent, has benefited GEN-MEDIEVAL with his scholarship
and contributed greatly to the Middleton lineage descents
from Sir Peter Middleton, Knight, sheriff of Yorkshire,
Ilkley, c.1290-1335.

Bill

*********************************
--- John Higgins <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I'm as bewildered as Bill Arnold by Will Johnson's mention of Isabel
Plumpton, dau. of Sir William Plumpton and his 1st wife Elizabeth
Stapleton - especially since I can find no reference to Alice Plumpton in
any of Bill Arnold's posts. The only Plumpton that Bill mentioned is
Eustacia, several generations earlier. There may in fact be a problem in
the proposed pedigree but it's likely not in the Middleton segments - and
Isabel Plumpton is not the problem.

As I underestand it, Bill is trying to place Alice Middleton, wife of
Richard Peck. She is in fact mentioned in Clay's edition [with additions]
of Dugdale's 1664-5 Visitation of Yorkshire. The Middleton of Stockeld
pedigree going back from her is, per Clay:

Sir Peter Middleton (d. ca. 1499), m. Anne, dau. of Sir Henry Vavasour of
Hazlewood
Sir John Middleton, m. Matilda, dau. of Sir John Thwaites of Lofthouse
William Middleton (will 1474), m. Margaret, dau. of Sir Stephen Hamerton of
Wigglesworth
Sir John Middleton, m. Alice, dau. of Sir Peter Mauleverer of Beamsley
Sir Nicholas Middleton; m. (2 of 3) Avice, dau. of Sir Gilbert Stapleton
Sir Thomas Middleton (prob. d. before March 1393), m. Eliza, dau. of Sir
Henry Gramary
Sir Peter Middleton, m. Eustacia, dau. of Sir Robert Plumpton
[and five more generations before this]

Alice Plumpton gets into this through the Hamerton marriage. Margaret
Hamerton who mar. William Middleton (d. 1474) is identified in Dugdale's
Middleton pedigree as daughter of Sir Steven Hamerton. In pedigrees of the
Hamerton family in visitations and other sources (e.g., Thomas Dunham
Whitaker's "Deanery of Craven"), Margaret is said to be a dau. of Sir
Stephen by his wife Isabel Plumpton - yes, THAT Isabel. The problem is that
Sir Stephen is said to have died 1500/1 per his IPM. Although this likely
presents no problems with the Plumpton chronology that Will mentions below,
it is problematic to give Sir Stephen a son-in-law who died 27 years before
him, as the pedigrees indicate. It seems possible that Margaret Hamerton
was in fact a sister, rather than daughter, of Sir Stephen Hamerton - but
this is only a guess.

Since Will has introduced Isabel Plumpton into the picture, does this help
to clarify things a bit and put her in a proper context?

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft.1491


Bill the full line, as presented, is not possible.

In particular its highly unlikely that Isabel Plumpton, daughter of Sir
William Plumpton "eldest son" by his wife Elizabeth Stapleton figures in the
line in the way you have described.

For Alice to be married and active on deeds in the 1490s, she has to be
too old to be in this descent. Sir William Plumpton is known to have been
born on 7 Oct 1404 and died on 15 Oct 1480, his Stapleton wife was dead by
1450.

If you calculate approximate years backward yourself you will see that
there is a problem.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
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-------------------------------
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____________________________________________________________________________________
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Bill Arnold

Re: Genealogy is a useless science!!!

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 14 okt 2007 17:57:03

Gosh, this thread blows my mind.

You are absolutely wrong. Good genealogy IS science. It used all the
laws(rules, take your pick) of good science. Ipso facto: it is, when done
right, and comfirmed by independent research and analysis, science.

Please take your opinion elsewhere.

Philosophically, I suppose we could debate other issues of genealogy
which are now coming into the fray: DNA, et al.

But, I will stay with the tried and true in science: TRUTH and CERTAINTY
as can best be ascertained by disciplined work.

Bill

*******************************************************



--- Pictou <pictou@comcast.net> wrote:

As pointed out, genealogy is not science, but it does use rules of evidence
and logic.
My wife wants to know which of her rich ancestors are going to pay our
bills.

"Victor Smootbank" <mean_priests@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1191790687.660510.116080@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Better go for archaeology, you could find hidden treasures
and get rich!!!




-------------------------------
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____________________________________________________________________________________
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Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 14 okt 2007 17:58:02

Agreed. As a case in point: there is a Peck Pedigree in much dispute in the British
Museum which dates from c.1620 by the College of Heralds, and published in
Ira. B Peck's book on his lineage. His book is a well documented compilation
of twenty years' work about mainly descendants of gateway to America Joseph
Peck, c.1587, who arrived 1638. The frontspiece pedigree, published in 1838,
is loosely based upon 4 plates in the British Museum, and caused articles in
the New England Historical Genealogical Society Register starting with reviews
in 1870s and continued until c.1939, by two descendants of Joseph Peck. My
intent is to resolve the Middleton question. At the heart of the controversy
was precisely whether or not the British Museum Pedigree of Pecks was a fraud.
It was, apparently, a compilation of a Peck in/c.1620 based on earlier Visitations,
and I cannot resolve yet the originals from the latter one in the British Museum,
largely in Latin and with arms, from the latter in Ira Peck's book, in the English
of the 1800s with additions and apparently illegible lines at crucial junctures.

So: scholarship marches on, and indeed we must use multiple sources and
conclusions based on reason to find the best resolve of documents cited.
To most, I assume this is old news, but to some perhaps NEW news!

Bill

***************************

--- John Higgins <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

The more conservative approach would be to regard the published "visitations" as NOT primary
documents, unless you have a great deal of certainty about their provenance. Most users of these
publications probably don't have either the inclination or the time or the ability to delve
deeply into the origins of these publications, so they would best advised to regard them as
secondary documents - which in most cases is probably the proper categorization.

Or, to put it another way, precisely because "we do not know what sources were used if any", we
should not consider the published visitations to be primary documents.

But this is somewhat academic - if you insist on the "gold standard" of support from primary
documents for every aspect of your medieval genealogy, you're going to have a pretty sparse
genealogy. We have to work with what we've got and recognize the limitations. But don't make
it worse by calling things "primary documents" that really aren't.

----- Original Message -----
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: jthiggins@sbcglobal.net ; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft.1491


In a message dated 10/13/2007 8:48:23 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
writes:
This often makes them better as sources than the original
documents since they may have, for example, been enhanced and validated with
information from wills, parish registers, and other records.
-------------------------
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. That's the problem. I did not say they *are* primary
documents, I said we have to treat them as such, because we do not know what sources were used
if any. We cannot now, at this distance, with ease, separate the primary material from the
additions.

That's the problem.
Will Johnson





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------
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word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message





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Bill Arnold

Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 14 okt 2007 18:14:03

Re-reading, I spotted an error:
Ira B. Peck published his Peck Gen book in 1868.
It was pub. in Boston by Mudge.

Bill

**************************************

--- Bill Arnold <billarnoldfla@yahoo.com> wrote:

Agreed. As a case in point: there is a Peck Pedigree in much dispute in the British
Museum which dates from c.1620 by the College of Heralds, and published in
Ira. B Peck's book on his lineage. His book is a well documented compilation
of twenty years' work about mainly descendants of gateway to America Joseph
Peck, c.1587, who arrived 1638. The frontspiece pedigree, published in 1838,
is loosely based upon 4 plates in the British Museum, and caused articles in
the New England Historical Genealogical Society Register starting with reviews
in 1870s and continued until c.1939, by two descendants of Joseph Peck. My
intent is to resolve the Middleton question. At the heart of the controversy
was precisely whether or not the British Museum Pedigree of Pecks was a fraud.
It was, apparently, a compilation of a Peck in/c.1620 based on earlier Visitations,
and I cannot resolve yet the originals from the latter one in the British Museum,
largely in Latin and with arms, from the latter in Ira Peck's book, in the English
of the 1800s with additions and apparently illegible lines at crucial junctures.

So: scholarship marches on, and indeed we must use multiple sources and
conclusions based on reason to find the best resolve of documents cited.
To most, I assume this is old news, but to some perhaps NEW news!

Bill

***************************

--- John Higgins <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


The more conservative approach would be to regard the published "visitations" as NOT primary
documents, unless you have a great deal of certainty about their provenance. Most users of
these
publications probably don't have either the inclination or the time or the ability to delve
deeply into the origins of these publications, so they would best advised to regard them as
secondary documents - which in most cases is probably the proper categorization.

Or, to put it another way, precisely because "we do not know what sources were used if any",
we
should not consider the published visitations to be primary documents.

But this is somewhat academic - if you insist on the "gold standard" of support from primary
documents for every aspect of your medieval genealogy, you're going to have a pretty sparse
genealogy. We have to work with what we've got and recognize the limitations. But don't
make
it worse by calling things "primary documents" that really aren't.

----- Original Message -----
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: jthiggins@sbcglobal.net ; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Middleton pedigree, 1100-1600: Alice Middleton, died aft.1491


In a message dated 10/13/2007 8:48:23 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jthiggins@sbcglobal.net
writes:
This often makes them better as sources than the original
documents since they may have, for example, been enhanced and validated with
information from wills, parish registers, and other records.
-------------------------
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. That's the problem. I did not say they *are* primary
documents, I said we have to treat them as such, because we do not know what sources were used
if any. We cannot now, at this distance, with ease, separate the primary material from the
additions.

That's the problem.
Will Johnson





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Re: MIDDLETON: Sir Peter de Middelton (c.1290-1335) - A Prom

Legg inn av John Higgins » 14 okt 2007 18:59:45

According to the Middleton pedigree in the 1664-5 visitation which I've
cited previously, the Sir William Middleton mentioned below had a will which
was proved, not dated, 11 March 1552 - the will was dated 2 Aug 1549. Clay
cites Testamenta Eboracensia, v. 6, which has also been previously cited.

Sir William Middleton is indicated as the son of Sir Peter and his wife Anne
Vavasour of Hazlewood and thus a brother of the previously mentioned Alice
Middleton who mar. Richard Peck. According to the visitation pedigree, Sir
William was married three times and had children (and probably further
descendants) by all three marriages.

At a quick glance, the information below for Sir William's ancestor Sir
Peter, who mar. Eustacia Plumpton, appears to be in sync with the limited
information on him in the visitation pedigree.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Arnold" <billarnoldfla@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 8:33 AM
Subject: MIDDLETON: Sir Peter de Middelton (c.1290-1335) - A
ProminentFourteenth Century Knight from Ilkley


I would appreciate gen-medieval list members' thoughts on
who was the William Middleton mentioned in the following article:
"...the will of Sir William Middelton, dated 11 March, 1552, in
which he requests to be buried under the stone where his ancestor
Sir Peter Middelton lay in Ilkley Church...." This clearly shows me
that at least in Ilkley, East Yorkshire, this pedigree is common
enough knowledge to make it the subject of a 1993 article.
Does anyone know of a book written about this Middleton
lineage?

Bill

**************************************************************

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/middelton/peterm.html


Sir Peter de Middelton (c.1290-1335) - A Prominent Fourteenth Century Knight
from Ilkley

An edited version of this article was published in the Ilkley Gazette on 1
April 1993

Tucked away in a quiet corner of the ancient Parish Church in Ilkley is one
of the town's greatest
historical treasures. Under an arched recess, in the small chapel off the
north aisle, lies a
finely carved effigy of a knight, which is over six hundred and fifty years
old. We must thank
Eoian Lewis for his recent drawings of this monument which are, I believe,
the first to accurately
portray it.

A description of c.1929, by Mr. William I'Anson, runs:

The knight, whose head rests upon pillows which are supported by angels,
wears a round-topped
skull-cap under a hood of mail; his hands, uplifted in prayer, are protected
by mail gauntlets
secured at the wrists by buckled leather straps; a guige [a strap for the
shield], passing over
the right shoulder, carries the shield; the surcoat, which reaches almost to
the ankles, is girt
at the waist by a narrow buckled strap, the pendent tag of which is looped
up and tucked away at
the right side; below and beneath the skirt of the hauberk [the coat of
mail] is seen the lower
extremity of the padded and quilted gambeson [a coat for wearing underneath
chain mail]; the
cuir-bouilli [boiled leather] knee-cops are ridged and decorated by
miniature shields; the
mail-clad legs are crossed; short prick spurs are worn, and the feet rest
upon a lion.
The knight's shield carries the arms of Middelton but for many years there
has been uncertainty as
to which member of the Middelton family it represented. The Middelton
family, who took their name
from Middleton in Wharfedale, can be traced back to the twelfth century and
continued their
association with Ilkley until the twentieth.

Camden, writing in the late sixteenth century, attributed the effigy to Adam
de Middelton, who
died in 1317. But the will of Sir William Middelton, dated 11 March, 1552,
in which he requests to
be buried under the stone where his ancestor Sir Peter Middelton lay in
Ilkley Church, throws
doubt on this attribution. Collyer and Turner, in 'Ilkley: Ancient and
Modern' decided that the
effigy belonged to Adam's father Peter, but I'Anson, who looked at many
monuments in the county,
believed it was of a later date.

I'Anson's suggested date for the effigy of c.1335 indicates that it was made
for Sir Peter de
Middelton, nephew of Adam and grandson of Adam's father Peter. However, some
scholars thought that
I'Anson was dating monuments too late, and discussion on this issue was cut
short by the
destruction of I'Ansons library by fire and his death before the publication
of his work. At the
moment, however, we must give his opinions the benefit of the doubt until
further work is done.

Sir Peter was the son of William de Middelton and Agnes, daughter of Nigel
le Boteler of North
Deighton. He must have been born c.1290, but we know nothing of his early
life. He was married
c.1319 to Eustachia, daughter of Robert de Plumpton, knt., who settled on
them lands in Nesfield
and Plumpton. Peter and Eustachia had several children, and Peter's eldest
son and heir Thomas was
born c.1321.

Peter's uncle Adam de Middelton was lord of Middleton, and joint lord of
Draughton and Askwith. He
also became the lord of Stockeld, near Wetherby, after a series of
transactions in the last decade
of his life. Adam was a justice of the king, and rector of Arncliffe, and
other public positions
he held included the offices of keeper of the town of Kingston-upon-Hull,
custodian of the Abbey
of Furness, warden of the Hospital of St. Leonard in York, and keeper of the
seal of the bishopric
of Durham. Sir Adam died on or about 24 February, 1317, leaving Sir Peter as
his heir.

Sir Peter followed his uncle's lead into the legal profession, and we hear
of him in 1327 being
asked to investigate an assault at Ellerker near Hull. He was subsequently
recorded as a justice
for the county of Northampton, and in 1332 was appointed with others to be
'keeper of York
Castle'. In 1334 he was appointed a Justice in Eyre of the forest of the
county of
Nottinghamshire, and later that same year of the county of Yorkshire. His
last position was that
of Sheriff of York, which he was granted in 1335.

The effigy of Sir Peter makes it plain he was seen as a man of arms. We know
of several episodes
in his life which would today be seen as 'incompatible with his public
duties'.

In May, 1316, commissioners were sent to investigate a complaint by John de
Goldesburgh that Adam
de Middelton, Peter de Middelton and many others had assaulted him at
Stockeld, killed three of
his horses to the value of £100, and carried away his goods and assaulted
his men and servants.
Later that year a further commission investigated the death of John
Folbaroun of Goldesburgh
[possibly the 'John de Goldsburgh'] which was said to have been caused by
Peter and others,
several of whom had been involved in the earlier offence. Sir Peter was
later acquitted. A payment
of 10 marks, in part payment of 100 marks, to Alice, widow of John
Folbaroun, from the executors
of the will of Adam de Middelton, recorded in Nov. 1318, was perhaps related
to this murder.

In 1317, a further complaint was made against Peter by John de Stockeld that
with others he had
burned his houses, hedges, and hays at Stockeld, and three horses to the
value of £10, 'broken his
park there', and felled and carried away his trees.

Later, in 1329, John de Moubray made a complaint against him and others that
they had driven away
40 horses and 300 sheep of his in Ingleton, and committed trespasses at his
hunting grounds at
Kirkby Malzeard, Burton in Lonsdale, Hovingham and Thirsk in Yorkshire.

In arms for the Government he was equally active. After Robert the Bruce led
the Scots incursion
into Yorkshire in 1319, when Ilkley and many other places were badly burnt,
he was ordered in
November of that year to raise arms against the Scots. It is unlikely that
any further fighting
took place that year, as shortly afterwards King Edward II agreed to peace
terms with the
invaders.

In 1330 he was appointed with others by Henry de Percy, at his manor of
Spofforth, to array all
men-at-arms and men on foot, and to bring them to him suitably equipped to
go on the King's
service, giving him power to punish rebels and contrariants.

Three years later, in May 1333, King Edward III ordered Peter de Middelton
and William de Mohaut
to raise twenty light horsemen and two hundred foot soldiers, either bowmen
or others, to fight
the Scots and in June was ordered to take them to Richmond or Northallerton.
A grant by Edward I
of Scotland [Edward Bailiol] to Sir Peter of several manors in Scotland, was
probably made as a
result of Sir Peter's role at the battle of Halidon Hill [near Berwick], on
July 19, 1333, when
David II, King of Scotland, was defeated by Edward III in support of
Bailiol.

Back home, carrying out his duties as Sheriff of York, Sir Peter was again
in trouble in 1335:

....when Peter de Middelton, the Sheriff, went into the West Riding to hold
his Tourns [the
Sheriff's twice yearly tour of the courts of the county], on Saturday the
vigil of Palm Sunday,
1335, Robert de Stopham, with other malefactors, viz. John le Vavasour of
Weston, Mauger le
Vavasour the younger, Alan le Venour of Storthes and Simon son of Peter del
Chirche of Oxton, and
others unknown, by procurement of John Vavasour, came against the King's
peace, and lay in wait
for Peter to slay him, at Ottelay and divers other places, so that the
Sheriff could not hold his
Tourns, and scarcely escaped death through their malice....
There seems to have been something of a blood feud between the Middeltons
and the Vavasours, for
Peter son of Richard de Middelton [I believe this Peter was first cousin of
Sir Peter] had been
murdered near Dacre Grange in Nidderdale in 1333 at the instigation of
Thomas son of Mauger le
Vavasour. Peter's son Richard avenged his father in 1345 when he mortally
wounded Thomas Vavasour
by stabbing him sixteen times about the heart as Thomas was walking in his
orchard at Denton.

By 1335 Sir Peter was back in Scotland as is shown by an order to the
Exchequer to pay Sir Peter
and his household their expenses and wages to cover their recent trip from
York to Edinburgh and
back to attend the king.

We last hear of Sir Peter at the castle at Wark on the Tweed, on 11 Sept.
1335, when Michael de
Presfen, one of the king's yeomen and keeper of the castle, gave him a
receipt for £100 in silver
which Sir Peter had been assigned by the bishop of Lincoln, treasurer of
England, to deliver to
Sir Michael's lord, Sir William Montague.

A receipt for monies paid by his executors shows us that by 24 October 1335
he was dead. No
details have yet come to light as to the manner of his death, but perhaps
future researches will
tell us more of the history of this prominent fourteenth century knight.








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Nancy L. Allen

Baldwin le Tyas orTyes (Teutonicus)

Legg inn av Nancy L. Allen » 14 okt 2007 19:20:15

"Bushley - Butterworth," A Topographical Dictionary of England (1848), pp. 460-462; at http://www.british-history.ac.uk, states "In Edward I's reign, Sir Baldwin Teutonicus or de Tyas, a knight of St. John of Jerusalem, . granted all his lands in the township to Sir Robert de Holland in free marriage with his daughter Joan, who, surviving her husband, married, secondly, Sir John de Byron."

Collins's Peerage of England, Genealogical, Biographical, and Historical, Vol. VII (London: 1812), p. 93; at books.google.com, refers to Baldwin as "Sir Baldwin (Teutonick, or) Thies."

William Farrer, transcriber and editor, The Cartulary of Cockersand Abbey of the Premonstratensian Order, Vol. II, Part II (Printed for The Chetham Society, 1900), p. 728; at books.google.com, states:

Roger de Notton "having released his estates in Farnley and Woodsome, co. York, and in Rochdale, co. Lanc., to Baldwin le Tyas or Tyes (Teutonicus), who had married his mother, he died in 1241 (Yorks. Arch. Journal, vol. vii., pp. 131, 132 n); Black Book of Clayton, (Towneley's MS.); Fine Roll, 25 Hen. III. m. 14). Joan, daughter of the said Baldwin le Tyas, married, firstly, Sir Robert de Hoyland, Knt., of High Hoyland, in the Wapentake of Staincross, co. York (Hunter's Deanery of Doncaster, Vol. II . p. 263), to whom her father conveyed in frank marriage with his said daughter Joan, all his lands in Rochdale, viz., in Butterworth, Clegg, Gartside, Ogden, Hollingworth, and Haugh (Black Book of Clayton, No. 71) ; and, secondly, Sir John de Byron, Knt., of Clayton, in Salfordshire.

Teutonicus in this last extract is in italics. The dictionary says that it means "from the ancient German language." Does this mean that the name Tyas/Tyes is from the ancient German language and Baldwin's surname is not Teutonicus or Teutonick? If so, that leaves Tyas/Tyes and Thies for his surname. How do you pronounce Thies?
Nancy

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Diana, Princess Of Wales & Continuing Mindless Celebrity

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 15 okt 2007 01:10:47

Previous to 28 Feb 1947, Philip was reportedly Prince Philip of Greece and
Denmark. He relinquished that title and assumed the surname Mountbattan on
that date.

Granted the qualification of Royal Highness, 19 Nov 1947. Created Duke of
Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich, 20 Nov 1947, by King
George VI, the day he married Elizabeth.

Granted the style and dignity of a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Northern Ireland, 22 Feb 1957, by The Queen.

Prince Philip apparently has a descent from Charles VII, [1403-1461],
'Victorus' Roi de France, while Queen Elizabeth is descended from Charles
VII, as well, reportedly a 14th great-granddaughter.

Charles VII reportedly has Kekule number 49,774 for Prince Philip. This may
equate to O17007 in the standard British Ancestor System. If these data are
correct, Charles VII would be a 13th Great-Grandfather of Prince Philip.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:rds4h3t2febrjg42j6b4ln7m4l5g329hg2@4ax.com...

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 07:36:33 -0700, Jane Margaret Laight
jml27515@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Oct 8, 10:02 am, "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
That is the only real difference that I see. I'd guess the PM
would
become Head of State as well as head of the govt.

No, the Head of State and the person at the head of the Government
(Prime Minister) are two different people.

That's why I wrote "become"....if the monarchy was abolished. That
would be a fundamental change...maybe even necessitating a written
constitution?

What do you think the ceremonies are all about? Choose one to talk
about.

Formal appointment of ministers.....unless they can only be
appointed by the monarch, isn't that just a formality/ceremony? Or, if
the Queen refused to formally appoint Brown...would he not have become
Prime Minister?

Approval of certain (what types?) of legislation....does this mean
the laws will not go into effect if the Queen doesn't approve them?
Or, as in the US...where the President has veto power...if the
President refuses to sign legislation, it still takes effect by
default.

Bestowing honours.....sounds like the epitome of ceremonial powers.

I remember reading somewhere that the Queen formally opens
Parliament. If this is true, does Parliament not open if the Queen
refuses to open it?

Prince Philip was also a Prince in his own right. He was born on
Corfu,
Greece, but was a member of the Danish Royal Family.

But he isn't a true Prince of Great Britain?

Philip was also born a Prince of Greece, a member of their Royal
Family, descended from a Prince of Denmark who was elected to the
throne of Greece--when he became a British citizen Philip gave up
those titles and took the name of Mountbatten before his marriage; he
received the title of Prince of the United Kingdom after he married.

JML

Perhaps I should add that in the UK, a Duke in his own right is also
considered a prince. Philip is Duke of Edinburgh, raised to that
estate by King George VI when Philip married the Queen. Thus he is
Prince Philip, or as the gutter press used to call him, "Phil the
Greek".

Private Eye, a satirical magazine had "in" typically lower class names
like a soap opera for each member of the Royal Family, to avoid being
sued for libel when publishing their more dubious claims of goings-on
behind the Royal scene.

The Queen was Brenda; Princess Margaret was Yvonne and Prince Charles
was Brian. The Duke of Edinburgh was "Keith", and later, the late
Diana, Princess of Wales was "Cheryl".

The Prime Minister of the time, Harold MacMillan, was Supermac and was
apparently very amused when Private Eye brought out a small record of
him allegedly singing a song based on some poetry he had quoted in the
House of Commons. He, a Scot, also refused to have his name published
in "Who's Who" (The UK version of the US "Who Dat?" a listing of the
most important people in Britain, saying that he could not have his
name next to those who has persecuted his ancestors. His family was
connected to the famous publishers, MacMillan.


The Conservative Prime Minister, Sir Alec Douglas-Home, (Home is said
like Hume) was called "Baillie Vass" after a pictures of the real
Baillie Vass (A Scottish magistrate was called a Baillie in those
days) was wrongly captioned "Sir Alec Douglas-Home" , who was also
occasionally called Sir Alec Douglas-Homo, following a brilliantly
funny sketch by the Two Ronnies, who read the alleged evening news,
replacing all the "e"s with "o", claiming that the "o" on the BBC
typewriter had stopped functioning, so "e" was substituting.

Prime minister Harold Wilson was called "Wislon" because Private Etye
thought it sounded more sinister. All in all it was an hilarious time.

There was also a show called "That was the week that was", aka TWTWTW,
hosted by David Frost and introduced by the delicious skat singer,
Millicent Martin.

It was so popular that, being aired on Friday evenings, restaurants
claimed that trade had fallen off as people stayed home to watch it.

The best sketch I remember was Frost doing an outside broadcast in
typical BBC ass-licking style, describing the Royal Barge sinking with
lines like, "And her Majesty, who is wearing a new Dior skirt with
matching accessories set off by a cloche hat with pink begonias is now
smiling radiantly as she sinks beneath the waves..."

The Royal Family was so taboo a subject at that time, that it caused
shock waves throughout the nation and was probably was the forerunner
of all the scurrilous shows involving the Royal Family ever since,
such as one where the family was trying to pick a name for the baby
Prince William. The Queen kept suggesting names like Brian, while
Prince Charles favoured names like Hengist and Princess Margaret,
whose love of Gordon's Gin was a byword, kept popping up from behind a
sofa brandishing a Gordon's Gin bottle and crying "Why don't you call
him Gordon?" It was merciless and we loved it all.

The real demise of the Royal Family's reputation came when some idiot
organized a game show featuring member of the Royal Family and
non-Royals, called, rather sycophantically, "Royals versus Commoners".

It rapidly became clear that the "Royals" intellectual level was
inferior to that of roadkill, while the "Commoners" handily won every
round. A ghastly silence enveloped the UK and when it became clear to
the incredulous audience that this group was what they were paying
massive financial subsidies to support, the magic was gone, as was
apparent when the Queen asked Parliament to pay for the damage caused
by a major fire at Windsor Castle and the public said, "No!" The
Queen, recognizing a "Night of the Long Knives" moment, shortly
afterwards volunteered to pay taxes, just like us common folks.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Medium Shapes The Message

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 15 okt 2007 01:20:36

The Medium Shapes The Message...

Pogue Gans, at NYU, has never understood that simple Truth concerning
USENET.

Pogues Fail To Understand.

Whereas The Cognoscenti Do...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Kay Allen

Re: Was Sir John Middleton married to Christian de Strively

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 15 okt 2007 03:17:45

In Wrottesley's Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls, there
is a pedigree showing that Richard Emildon had a dtr.
married to John Strivelyn. Since Richard' wife was
Christina/Christian, she might well have had a
grandtr. Christian.

But I do not remember the property in question.

K Allen AG

--- Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Merilyn, Will and others,
Did
East Swinburne come into Sir
John Middleton`s ( died 1395) hands through marriage
to Christian de
Strivelyn (aka Stirling) daughter of John de
Strivelyn of Swinburne by either Barbara
(died 1363) co-heir of Adam de Swinburne or Jane,
daughter of Richard
Emildon. Sir John Middleton was apparently a younger
son of Sir Thomas Middleton by
Eliza (nee Gramary) while John Strivelyn `s parents
are given as John
Strivelyn and Mary Macdougal (daughter of Ewen mac
Alastair MacDougal of Dunollie)
Any portion of this correct ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



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Kay Allen

Re: Was Sir John Middleton married to Christian de Strively

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 15 okt 2007 03:17:49

In Wrottesley's Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls, there
is a pedigree showing that Richard Emildon had a dtr.
married to John Strivelyn. Since Richard' wife was
Christina/Christian, she might well have had a
grandtr. Christian.

But I do not remember the property in question.

K Allen AG

--- Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Merilyn, Will and others,
Did
East Swinburne come into Sir
John Middleton`s ( died 1395) hands through marriage
to Christian de
Strivelyn (aka Stirling) daughter of John de
Strivelyn of Swinburne by either Barbara
(died 1363) co-heir of Adam de Swinburne or Jane,
daughter of Richard
Emildon. Sir John Middleton was apparently a younger
son of Sir Thomas Middleton by
Eliza (nee Gramary) while John Strivelyn `s parents
are given as John
Strivelyn and Mary Macdougal (daughter of Ewen mac
Alastair MacDougal of Dunollie)
Any portion of this correct ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



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Kay Allen

Re: Was Sir John Middleton married to Christian de Strively

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 15 okt 2007 03:17:52

In Wrottesley's Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls, there
is a pedigree showing that Richard Emildon had a dtr.
married to John Strivelyn. Since Richard' wife was
Christina/Christian, she might well have had a
grandtr. Christian.

But I do not remember the property in question.

K Allen AG

--- Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Merilyn, Will and others,
Did
East Swinburne come into Sir
John Middleton`s ( died 1395) hands through marriage
to Christian de
Strivelyn (aka Stirling) daughter of John de
Strivelyn of Swinburne by either Barbara
(died 1363) co-heir of Adam de Swinburne or Jane,
daughter of Richard
Emildon. Sir John Middleton was apparently a younger
son of Sir Thomas Middleton by
Eliza (nee Gramary) while John Strivelyn `s parents
are given as John
Strivelyn and Mary Macdougal (daughter of Ewen mac
Alastair MacDougal of Dunollie)
Any portion of this correct ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



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Gjest

Re: Was Sir John Middleton married to Christian de Strively

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 okt 2007 03:37:02

Dear Kay,
Thank You very much. The website I saw the information on
was one of Rootsweb.com which can occasionally serve as a outline to follow.
Richard de Emildon`s wife was given as Christiana de Mowbray whose parents are
given there as Roger de Mowbray, 1st Baron Mowbray of Thirsk and Rohese de
Vere.
sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



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Gjest

Re: Was Sir John Middleton married to Christian de Strively

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 okt 2007 04:50:07

Dear Kay,
I have just reread Douglas Hickling`s piece on the possible
John de Mowbrays ( 5 in number) who could have been Christian (Mowbray)
(Plumpton) Elmendon`s brother. It eliminated 3 of them and suggested that her
brother was John , 3rd Lord Mowbray, which would make her parents John de Mowbray,
2nd Lord Mowbray of Thirsk and Aline de Brewes with a slight chance that she
was instead the daughter of William Mowbray of Easby / Kirklington. in Part 2
He makes an interesting statement about John Middleton and his sisters, who
were heirs to Christiana`s daughter Jacoba (de Elmendon ) de Strivelyn who
was John Strivelyn`s 2nd wife but were not descended from her but rather from
his 1st wife Barbara de Swinburne.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
PS I think Hickling got his Middleton generation mixed up. I seem to
recall that there was a son Thomas and daughters including Anne , wife of Sir John
Manners. John was the husband of Christian Strivelyn.



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Kay Allen

Re: Was Sir John Middleton married to Christian de Strively

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 15 okt 2007 04:55:47

I have different parents: John Mowbray. But which one
is unknown. There may be something in the archives.
Christian was also married to Wm de Plumpton.

K
--- Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Kay,
Thank You very much. The website I
saw the information on
was one of Rootsweb.com which can occasionally serve
as a outline to follow.
Richard de Emildon`s wife was given as Christiana de
Mowbray whose parents are
given there as Roger de Mowbray, 1st Baron Mowbray
of Thirsk and Rohese de
Vere.
sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



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D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Medium Shapes The Message

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 15 okt 2007 06:40:09

The Medium Shapes The Message...

Pogue Gans, at NYU, has never understood that simple Truth concerning
USENET.

Indeed, He's Rather Dense On The Matter...

As This Was All Pointed Out To Him, In Detail, YEARS Ago...

Slow Learner.

Pogues Fail To Understand.

Whereas The Cognoscenti Do...

Gans thinks USENET is a CLASSROOM and a VILLAGE PUB...

Whereas it is actually a BAZAAR in the FREE MARKET OF IDEAS...

For which, GOD BLESS...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

Exitus Acta Probat

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Diana, Princess Of Wales & Continuing Mindless Celebrity

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 15 okt 2007 06:47:53

Is there any credible evidence that Prince Philip has been unfaithful to his
wife?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Nancy L. Allen

Re: Baldwin le Tyas orTyes (Teutonicus)

Legg inn av Nancy L. Allen » 15 okt 2007 15:59:40

I found the following in The Countess of Cleveland, The Battle Abbey Roll
with Some Account of The Norman Lineages, In Three Volumes, Vol. III
(London: John Murray, 1889), pp. 177-178; at books.google.com:

"Traies, for Thays, according to Leland's version. He gives us "Thays et
Tony" : and again, further on, "Tay." This was a baronial name. The family
of Teutonicus, or Tyes, is frequently mentioned both in Normandy and
England"

"some time between 1195 and 1211, Roger de Laci granted the manor of
Slaithwaithe, which passed to his brother Baldwin Teutonicus vel Ties, Lord
of Lede, and in right of his wife Margery, also of Woodsome and Farnley,
named from him Farnley-Tyas."

I don't see how the name Teutonicus became
Tyas/Tyes/Ties/Traies/Thays/Thies.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy L. Allen" <allennl@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:20 PM
Subject: Baldwin le Tyas orTyes (Teutonicus)


"Bushley - Butterworth," A Topographical Dictionary of England (1848), pp.
460-462; at http://www.british-history.ac.uk, states "In Edward I's reign, Sir
Baldwin Teutonicus or de Tyas, a knight of St. John of Jerusalem, .
granted all his lands in the township to Sir Robert de Holland in free
marriage with his daughter Joan, who, surviving her husband, married,
secondly, Sir John de Byron."

Collins's Peerage of England, Genealogical, Biographical, and Historical,
Vol. VII (London: 1812), p. 93; at books.google.com, refers to Baldwin as
"Sir Baldwin (Teutonick, or) Thies."

William Farrer, transcriber and editor, The Cartulary of Cockersand Abbey
of the Premonstratensian Order, Vol. II, Part II (Printed for The Chetham
Society, 1900), p. 728; at books.google.com, states:

Roger de Notton "having released his estates in Farnley and Woodsome, co.
York, and in Rochdale, co. Lanc., to Baldwin le Tyas or Tyes (Teutonicus),
who had married his mother, he died in 1241 (Yorks. Arch. Journal, vol.
vii., pp. 131, 132 n); Black Book of Clayton, (Towneley's MS.); Fine Roll,
25 Hen. III. m. 14). Joan, daughter of the said Baldwin le Tyas, married,
firstly, Sir Robert de Hoyland, Knt., of High Hoyland, in the Wapentake of
Staincross, co. York (Hunter's Deanery of Doncaster, Vol. II . p. 263), to
whom her father conveyed in frank marriage with his said daughter Joan,
all his lands in Rochdale, viz., in Butterworth, Clegg, Gartside, Ogden,
Hollingworth, and Haugh (Black Book of Clayton, No. 71) ; and, secondly,
Sir John de Byron, Knt., of Clayton, in Salfordshire.

Teutonicus in this last extract is in italics. The dictionary says that it
means "from the ancient German language." Does this mean that the name
Tyas/Tyes is from the ancient German language and Baldwin's surname is not
Teutonicus or Teutonick? If so, that leaves Tyas/Tyes and Thies for his
surname. How do you pronounce Thies?
Nancy



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John Brandon

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av John Brandon » 15 okt 2007 16:32:45

Dear Will and others.
Looking back at prior Threads on the
Cudworth / Machell / Lewknor connection I found I had made a reference to the Paul C
Reed article mentioned in GBR`s 1st edition of RD600 which was described as
being based in part on the wills of Mary`s grandfather Edward Lewknor (III) and
of John Machell (I`m betting on her brother, rather than her paternal
grandfather).

I looked at Gary's book over the weekend, which gives the wife of
Ralph Cudworth (the elder) as Mary Machell, and states that the 1647
will of John Machell mentions his "cousin Jane Cudworth," interpreted
here as being a sister of the immigrant James1.

The 1624 will of Ralph Cudworth the elder is in the PCC, and available
online. I'm guessing that this document mentions his "wife Mary."
Someone who's a descendant might want to check. It also seems there
is a 1647 John Machell will avail. online.

Bill Arnold

Re: Was Sir John Middleton married to Christian de Strively

Legg inn av Bill Arnold » 15 okt 2007 16:36:03

Would you please clarify the John Middleton connection to the Mowbrays
and Plumptons: there appears to be several inter-generational marriages?

Bill

******************************************
--- Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Dear Kay,
I have just reread Douglas Hickling`s piece on the possible
John de Mowbrays ( 5 in number) who could have been Christian (Mowbray)
(Plumpton) Elmendon`s brother. It eliminated 3 of them and suggested that her
brother was John , 3rd Lord Mowbray, which would make her parents John de Mowbray,
2nd Lord Mowbray of Thirsk and Aline de Brewes with a slight chance that she
was instead the daughter of William Mowbray of Easby / Kirklington. in Part 2
He makes an interesting statement about John Middleton and his sisters, who
were heirs to Christiana`s daughter Jacoba (de Elmendon ) de Strivelyn who
was John Strivelyn`s 2nd wife but were not descended from her but rather from
his 1st wife Barbara de Swinburne.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
PS I think Hickling got his Middleton generation mixed up. I seem to
recall that there was a son Thomas and daughters including Anne , wife of Sir John
Manners. John was the husband of Christian Strivelyn.



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John Brandon

Re: Genealogics: Connecting the Machells to the Barons Aungi

Legg inn av John Brandon » 15 okt 2007 17:29:38

I looked at Gary's book over the weekend, which gives the wife of
Ralph Cudworth (the elder) as Mary Machell, and states that the 1647
will of John Machell mentions his "cousin Jane Cudworth," interpreted
here as being a sister of the immigrant James1.

The 1624 will of Ralph Cudworth the elder is in the PCC, and available
online. I'm guessing that this document mentions his "wife Mary."
Someone who's a descendant might want to check. It also seems there
is a 1647 John Machell will avail. online.

The problem--to my mind--with the James Cudworth descent from royalty
through the Machells and Lewknors lies in the vague statement that the
mother of Rev Ralph Cudworth, Jr., born 1617, "was a member of the
Machell family," and the lack of almost any dates for these people
(Machells, Cudworths, and Lewknors) in the extracted IGI (ie., firm,
correct dates that can be relied on). When we note that no daughter
Mary is shown in the Essex visitation pedigree for Matthew and Mary
(Lewknor) Machell, our doubts grow.

Presumably the John Machell who made a will in 1647 was indeed a
descendant of Mary (Lewknor) Machell, but his "cousin Jane Cudworth"
very easily might have been a true cousin-german, related somewhat
distantly through the Machells, rather than a niece, descended
specifically from the Machell-Lewknor marriage.

Maybe Paul has more details that prove the line. But don't hold yer
breath, folks ... (for the publication of the article, at least).

John P. Ravilious

Re: Baldwin le Tyas orTyes (Teutonicus)

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 15 okt 2007 18:41:41

Dear Nancy,

Certainly the cognomen 'Teutonicus' points to Baldwin le Tyes (or
at least a parent) having come from a German-speaking land. The name
Baldwin would tend to point to Flanders or nearby in the Lowlands area
of the Holy Roman Empire.

'Tyes' sounds like a rendering by someone hearing 'Deitsch' or
'Deutsch'. My guess would be, Baldwin or his father having come from
western Flanders or elsewhere not too far off, explained their family
or tongue being 'Deutsche' or 'Deitsch', which was then taken up by
Norman-French speaking neighbors as 'le Deitsch', or 'le
Tyes' (without the hard ending). This probably needs a knowledgeable
linguist to properly handle, but at least would explain why Baldwin
could be both 'le Tyes' (Norman French) and 'Teutonicus' (Latin).

Perhaps Leo, or another of the list who speaks Nederlans or
Vlaams, would chime in on this.....?

Cheers,

John



On Oct 15, 10:59 am, "Nancy L. Allen" <alle...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I found the following in The Countess of Cleveland, The Battle Abbey Roll
with Some Account of The Norman Lineages, In Three Volumes, Vol. III
(London: John Murray, 1889), pp. 177-178; at books.google.com:

"Traies, for Thays, according to Leland's version. He gives us "Thays et
Tony" : and again, further on, "Tay." This was a baronial name. The family
of Teutonicus, or Tyes, is frequently mentioned both in Normandy and
England"

"some time between 1195 and 1211, Roger de Laci granted the manor of
Slaithwaithe, which passed to his brother Baldwin Teutonicus vel Ties, Lord
of Lede, and in right of his wife Margery, also of Woodsome and Farnley,
named from him Farnley-Tyas."

I don't see how the name Teutonicus became
Tyas/Tyes/Ties/Traies/Thays/Thies.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy L. Allen" <alle...@sbcglobal.net
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:20 PM
Subject: Baldwin le Tyas orTyes (Teutonicus)

"Bushley - Butterworth," A Topographical Dictionary of England (1848), pp.
460-462; atwww.british-history.ac.uk, states "In Edward I's reign, Sir
Baldwin Teutonicus or de Tyas, a knight of St. John of Jerusalem, .
granted all his lands in the township to Sir Robert de Holland in free
marriage with his daughter Joan, who, surviving her husband, married,
secondly, Sir John de Byron."

Collins's Peerage of England, Genealogical, Biographical, and Historical,
Vol. VII (London: 1812), p. 93; at books.google.com, refers to Baldwin as
"Sir Baldwin (Teutonick, or) Thies."

William Farrer, transcriber and editor, The Cartulary of Cockersand Abbey
of the Premonstratensian Order, Vol. II, Part II (Printed for The Chetham
Society, 1900), p. 728; at books.google.com, states:

Roger de Notton "having released his estates in Farnley and Woodsome, co.
York, and in Rochdale, co. Lanc., to Baldwin le Tyas or Tyes (Teutonicus),
who had married his mother, he died in 1241 (Yorks. Arch. Journal, vol.
vii., pp. 131, 132 n); Black Book of Clayton, (Towneley's MS.); Fine Roll,
25 Hen. III. m. 14). Joan, daughter of the said Baldwin le Tyas, married,
firstly, Sir Robert de Hoyland, Knt., of High Hoyland, in the Wapentake of
Staincross, co. York (Hunter's Deanery of Doncaster, Vol. II . p. 263), to
whom her father conveyed in frank marriage with his said daughter Joan,
all his lands in Rochdale, viz., in Butterworth, Clegg, Gartside, Ogden,
Hollingworth, and Haugh (Black Book of Clayton, No. 71) ; and, secondly,
Sir John de Byron, Knt., of Clayton, in Salfordshire.

Teutonicus in this last extract is in italics. The dictionary says that it
means "from the ancient German language." Does this mean that the name
Tyas/Tyes is from the ancient German language and Baldwin's surname is not
Teutonicus or Teutonick? If so, that leaves Tyas/Tyes and Thies for his
surname. How do you pronounce Thies?
Nancy

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WJhonson

Re: Baldwin le Tyas orTyes (Teutonicus)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 15 okt 2007 21:06:19

This is apropos of this thread (you may see why if you look at the book or wait for my next extract.)
Will Johnson

http://books.google.com/books?id=HMgCAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA727
"The Chartulary of Cockersand Abbey of the Premonstratensian Order", by Cockersand Abbey, William Farrer"
pg 727 fn2 : "According to the Survey of co Lancaster made in 1212, Gilbert de Notton held one carucate of land [in Crompton] in thanage, of Roger de Montbegon and William de Nevill jointly, by the service of 6s 4d yearly. The Nevill moiety was in the King's hands at the date of the Survey, because the heirs of the said William, then deceased, had neglected to do homage and render their relief.....In the time of Stephen and Henry II, this estate was held by Adam fitz Swain, whose father, Swain fitz Alric, died shortly before the 31 Henry I (Pipe Roll, p 142)....He died about 1160, leaving two daughters his heirs -- Amabel, the elder, who married firstly, Alexander de Crevequeur, and secondly, William de Neville above named; and Matilda, the younger, married to Adam de Montbegon, father of Roger above named."
- transcribed courtesy of Will Johnson, wjhonson@aol.com, Professional Genealogist, from the original image in Google Books

WJhonson

Re: Baldwin le Tyas orTyes (Teutonicus)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 15 okt 2007 21:31:17

http://books.google.com/books?id=HMgCAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA727
"The Chartulary of Cockersand Abbey of the Premonstratensian Order", by Cockersand Abbey, William Farrer"
pg 727 fn2 : "...The earliest mention that I have found of Gilbert de Notton occurs in the Sheriff's account of co Lancaster, at Michaelmas, 1185, when the latter rendered account at the Treasury of one mark from Gilbert de Noton and Richard de Heland for license to make an agreement touching some suit which they had been litigating in the King's Court (Lancashire Pipe Rolls, p 55). He was Seneschal to John de Lacy, Constable of Chester sometime between 1213 and 1220. By his first wife, who died before 1203, he appears to have had issue at least two sons, viz, Gilbert and William. By his second wife Edith, lady of Barton, in her own right, daughter of Matthew de Barton, whom he married shortly before 1203, he had no issue; but the said Edith by her first husband, whose name has not been preserved, had issue a son, John, who died young and unmarried, and a daughter, Cecily, her heir..."
- transcribed courtesy of Will Johnson, wjhonson@aol.com, Professional Genealogist, from the original image in Google Books

WJhonson

Re: Baldwin le Tyas orTyes (Teutonicus)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 15 okt 2007 21:44:51

http://books.google.com/books?id=HMgCAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA728
"The Chartulary of Cockersand Abbey of the Premonstratensian Order", by Cockersand Abbey, William Farrer"
pg 728 footnote : "Gilbert de Notton (2), eldest son of Gilbert, the Seneschal, married Margery, daughter of Hugh de Eland of Eland and Rochdale, who gave the said Gilbert in frank marriage with his daughter, certain lands in Naden in Spotland (Whalley Coucher, p 640). The said Gilbert also purchased from Robert de Mitton certain lands which had been bestowed upon Jordan de Mitton (the said Robert's grandfather), early in the reign of Henry II, by Hugh de Eland, in frank marriage with his daughter Wymark, viz, two oxgangs of land in Wardleworth, and two oxgangs in Heley (Whalley Coucher, pp 623, 627). This land afterwards became the nucleus of the Byron estates in the lordship of Rochdale. Gilbert de Notton, jun, by his said wife had issue a son, Roger, who succeeded to his father's Yorkshire estate in Silkstone, Farnley Tias, and Woodsome, of which the former estate passed by the marriage of his daughter and heir, Christiana, to William Heron, and so to the family of John, !
Lord Darcy (Hunter's Deanery of Doncaster, passim). The said Roger was the grantor in Charter No 2. Having released his estates in Farnley and Woodsome, co York and in Rochdale, co Lanc. to Baldwin le Tyas or Tyes (Teutonicus), who had married his mother, he died in 1241 (Yorks. Arch. Journal, vol vii, pp 131, 132 n; Black Book of Clayton, (Towneley's MS.); Fine Roll, 25 Hen III m 14). Joan, daughter of the said Baldwin le Tyas, married firstly, Sir Robert de Hoyland, Knt of High Hoyland, in the Wapentake of Staincross, co York (Hunter's Deanery of Doncaster, Vol II, p 263), to whom her father conveyed in frank marriage with his said daughter Joan, all his lands in Rochdale, viz, in Butterworth, Clegg, Gartside, Ogden, Hollingworth, and Haugh (Black Book of Clayton, no 71); and, secondly , Sir John de Byron, Knt, of Clayton in Salfordshire."
- transcribed courtesy of Will Johnson, wjhonson@aol.com, Professional Genealogist, from the original image in Google Books

WJhonson

Re: Baldwin le Tyas orTyes (Teutonicus)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 15 okt 2007 21:58:41

Will thank you for your excellent post(s).

There is a slight discrepancy in this account.

To wit: it states that Gilbert de Notton was a son by his father's first (or prior) wife who had died in 1203 and who is not named, that that father, also named Gilbert married secondly by 1202 to Edith de Barton.

But then it states that Gilbert de Notton, the son, who died in 1241, released his lands to Baldwin le Tyes "who had married his mother".

Unless Gilbert Sr and his first wife were divorced, Baldwin could not have married his mother and yet be living into Gilbert Jr's time period. So perhaps they mean that Baldwin married Edith de Barton ?

Will Johnson

Nancy L. Allen

Re: Baldwin le Tyas or Tyes (Teutonicus)

Legg inn av Nancy L. Allen » 15 okt 2007 22:26:27

Thank you, John, for your reply and explanation of Deitsch/Deutsch becoming Tyes. After my last post, I found the following in The Norman People and Their Existing Descendants in the British Dominions and the United States of America (2nd edition; London: Henry S. King & Co., 1874), p. 416; at books.google.com.

"... the family of Teutonicus, or Tyes, is frequently mentioned both in Normandy and England. It may possibly have been descended from Baldric Teutonicus, ancestor of the Courcys and Nevilles." I haven't checked out this possibility.

I find it interesting that Farrer was the only author, that I've found, who put Teutonicus in italics. The others seem to have just accepted the family name as being Teutonicus and Tyes (or a variant spelling).

Nancy


"John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote in message news:1192470101.512079.44460@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Dear Nancy,

Certainly the cognomen 'Teutonicus' points to Baldwin le Tyes (or
at least a parent) having come from a German-speaking land. The name
Baldwin would tend to point to Flanders or nearby in the Lowlands area
of the Holy Roman Empire.

'Tyes' sounds like a rendering by someone hearing 'Deitsch' or
'Deutsch'. My guess would be, Baldwin or his father having come from
western Flanders or elsewhere not too far off, explained their family
or tongue being 'Deutsche' or 'Deitsch', which was then taken up by
Norman-French speaking neighbors as 'le Deitsch', or 'le
Tyes' (without the hard ending). This probably needs a knowledgeable
linguist to properly handle, but at least would explain why Baldwin
could be both 'le Tyes' (Norman French) and 'Teutonicus' (Latin).

Perhaps Leo, or another of the list who speaks Nederlans or
Vlaams, would chime in on this.....?

Cheers,

John

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