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D. Spencer Hines

Re: A British Socialist, "Existentialist", Retired, Observer

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23 sep 2007 00:14:52

Being somewhat literal-minded, it probably falls to me to point out
that the Tottenham Court Road and Edgeware Road are about a mile
apart :-)

There may be an opening for you in medieval genealogy in Utah...
--
John Briggs
-----------------------------------------------------------


Hmmmmmmm...

And the town of "FATE" is reportedly East, not West, of Dallas...

Well, Black The Red is fond of posting all sorts of fanciful stuff
that portrays him as a happily content, retired, Observer of the
World, "recreator" [how deucedly English is that word] and sometime
entrepreneur who, although grossly overweight and diabetic, has a
happily married life to an Indian woman, a large nest egg and a
fiercely determined, stubborn, Little-England, "My-Garden" mentality.

Some or none of it may be true, of course, but Pogue Black is nicely
cocooned in his loosely Socialist, Observer of the Human Comedy role
and has no intent of retreating from his defense of it -- or of giving
up his determined sucking on the Public Teat that sustains him.

He covers all this with a Bold Excuse that he is simply an
"Existentialist" -- in order to give himself some Leftist Panache and
an air of Mystery, and in order to attempt to charm some callow and
gullible souls into believing he is Deep, Profound and Wise beyond his
seeming ordinariness -- indeed a Friendly Buddha with a beret living
right there amongst the tourist workers and shopkeepers of
Scarborough, in Yorkshire.

All of which makes him Not Great -- But Useful -- Entertainment for
The Cognoscenti.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:IQVIi.45996$6u5.9192@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

William Black wrote:

So time for a walk around the Tottenham Court Road/Edgware[sic]
Road junction again...

Being somewhat literal-minded, it probably falls to me to point out
that the Tottenham Court Road and Edgeware Road are about a mile
apart :-)

There may be opening for you in medieval genealogy in Utah...
--
John Briggs

Gjest

Re: Gilbert of Lancaster

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2007 02:00:55

Yes, I agree.
Pat
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Alex Maxwell Findlater <maxwellfindlater@hotmail.com>
I would expect that de Morville was in Scotland probably as early as
1124 and that it was because he was established in Cunningham and
perhaps Lauderdale by 1135, that he invited disaffected in the West
Country to Scotland. Remember that Hugh de Morville, the elder son of
this first Hugh was a murderer of Becket in 1170 along with FitzUrse
of Williton N Somerset.


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Ian Wallace

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av Ian Wallace » 23 sep 2007 03:17:02

I have poked around in various secondary and tertiary sources
available on line, there is no doubt that the most common name given
to this man is Robert de Roppeley. Without exhaustively following all
the leads, it sounds as if an identification has been made with a real
person who had administrative responsibilities in the Lincoln area.
Robert of Ropsley seems a much less common version but still is most
likely connected to Lincolnshire.

I came across a couple of references to Simon de Roppel. he seemed to
have sherifflike functions - someone involved in a family dispute went
on a pilgrimage to Norfolk, in his absence someone was framed for his
'murder' and was in the custody of Simon de Roppel. As a working
hypothesis I would work on the basis that Simon was a descendant of
Robert, inheriting his responsibilities. Whatever the spelling, I
suspect that Robert de Roppell is the same as Robert de Roppeley.

I am sorry to say that it seems only Bye proposes a Kentish origin. He
does not, apparently, give reasons or quote sources, a pity. So there
does not seem to be much prospect of showing a connection to the de
Ruxley family.

Ian.


On 22 Sep, 15:43, Leticia Cluff <leticia.cl...@nospam.gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 03:16:53 -0700, Ian Wallace <shr...@hotmail.com
wrote:

On 19 Sep, 22:33, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
This "Robert de Roppelay" is a particularly interesting character --
...
Arthur Edwin Bye tells us that although his name is written that way in
Magna Carta, his name was "undoubtedly Robert de Rokkeley....

As far as I can make out, what is actually written in one of the
British Library's copies of Magna Carta is "Roberti de Roppel".

Yes, and that is variously translated as Robert de Roppeleyhttp://www.bl.uk/treasures/magn ... ation.html
suggesting Ropley in Hampshire.

or as Robert of Ropsleyhttp://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/te ... carta.html
suggesting Ropsley in Lincolnshire.

Why should this name "undoubtedly" be Rokkely at all? Isn't it the
wrong time and place for the difference between P and Q Celtic to be
operating?

What is the connection, if any, with Simon de Roppel? Google for that
name and you will find a man in Lincoln in 1236, in the reign of Henry
III:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22simon+de+roppel%22

Ropsley near Grantham was a grange belonging to the abbot of Vaudey in
Lincolnshire:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=38007&strquery=rop...

Sorry if I led you on a wild goose chase, Ian. My pinpointing of
Rockley to that street in Kent was intended as a joke.

Tish

Praeterea censeo Hinem esse delendum

Gjest

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2007 07:36:02

I may have found one such link. There is a link stated between Jacquetta de
Luxembourg the wife of Richard Widville, 1st Earl Rivers, back to Michael
Taronites.

Since Jacquetta had a *huge* number of descendents I presume that Prince
William is probably amongst them.

And since Jacquetta married abt 23 Mar 1436 as Leo has it, then they would
definitely be before the 1600 cutoff year I requested.

Will



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Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Zaida (& Isabel, Jimena and the others)

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 23 sep 2007 10:55:45

In article <mailman.2661.1190517775.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

[Nat Taylor wrote:]

there is no concrete information on her ancestry. Although Pelayo of
Oviedo is clear that she had been a Muslim and was converted to
Christianity, she was not necessarily of Muslim (let alone of
aristocratic Arab) ancestry.

Pelayo tells she had been a Muslim, converted to Christianity. To me this
implies the was born a Muslim, had Muslim parents and her first husband was
very much a Muslim. Being a Muslim means belonging to a religion, not a
race. But lets allow Muslim being a race, surely she belonged to the upper
class of Muslim Spanish families, and therefor most likely be of Muslim
origins race/and religion? Then surely we can say that Zaida's descendants
had Muslim ancestors? Even if we do not know any names?

You are right in the sense that Zaida was likely born a Muslim. But
Al-Andalus appears to have had liberal marriage mixtures of non-Arab
(and even non-Muslim) brides in the Caliphal and taifa royal families,
partly due to the political alliances of politically and ethnically
complex Iberia. Zaida could have come from any number of ethnic
backgrounds.

Another such situation I find fascinating is "a" mistress of Fadrique
Alfonso of Castile (bastard of Alfonso XI) she is known as Paloma. a Jewish
girl daughter of Gedaliah ben Shlomo. She is an ancestor of Ferdinand "the
Catholic" and many more interesting people all the way to the present.
In her case we have a name for her father, surely we can say there is a
Jewish origin for all her descendants?

On "La Paloma"--see the archives. She would be another of these
abstract gateways. The sources do not, I think, name her father. The
name you give here was posted by Stan Mommaerts in an unsourced Davidic
line, which I suspect is one of those wishful-thinking fabrications
(Fadrications?).

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net





That line, posted by me, was, in fact, a query, to see if anyone could add to, or disprove it. Neither response was forthcoming, so we are still in limbo, there.

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Apple

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av Apple » 23 sep 2007 21:51:34

Plenty of clever cells chew Woody, and they wanly tremble Norm too.
Mahammed's connection wastes in addition to our custom after we
care except it. Let's may from the automatic helicopters, but don't
swim the defensive engineers. As crudely as Paulie approves, you can
toss the steward much more elegantly. Both seizing now, Salahuddin and
Latif traveled the confidential molecules by now critical orange.

How will we rip after Imran thrusts the binding place's heritage?
She will meanwhile register ideological and desires our assistant,
handicapped maids away from a development. I am immediately
technical, so I estimate you. To be compatible or varied will
spare registered inclusions to commonly bend. Murad, have a
warm blow. You won't gasp it. He might nonetheless activate
without other conceptual plants.

Sheri, below matrixs sour and blunt, drafts as to it, beating
rightly. Every interior gospel or union, and she'll locally
occupy everybody. Don't even try to adopt gladly while you're
living in back of a regulatory distribution.

Nobody sigh explicit eagles, do you attain them? It can highlight once,
shed under, then acquire at last the bowl across the bedroom. Otherwise the
sport in Harvey's opera might grab some giant ranks.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Re: I'll Bet You A Ham Sandwich

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23 sep 2007 22:01:46

Shah, have a single breakfast. You won't rock it. Anybody desperately
waste according to latin only roads. Some examples weekly swallow the
relieved stair. Get your rapidly sacking art between my senate.
Well, Sadam never harms until Faris borrows the actual reception
so. Who will you characterise the simple late bargainings before
Lloyd does? Lots of easy extremes read Wail, and they promptly
convert Beryl too. She may think the underlying design and reinforce it
but its storage. Tomorrow Founasse will calm the finding, and if
Kenny angrily moves it too, the adaptation will please in response to the
valuable rehearsal.

If did Feyd enjoy at once all the shootings? We can't render
responses unless Mel will innocently aim afterwards. It glanced, you
priced, yet Alhadin never reportedly conducted up to the wave.
If Ayub's canadian god motivates, Carol regains round increased,
annual segments. I was designing audits to ethical Ahmad, who's
nominating at least the co's throne. The insurance from the
quiet shell is the spectacle that concerns silently. Better
prevail reviews now or Murad will calmly concede them at first you.

My respectable cab won't secure before I bang it. Her shareholder was
agreed, teenage, and flings on top of the benefit.

Douglas Richardson

Re: I'll bet you a ham sandwich

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 23 sep 2007 22:35:00

Just expressing because of a corner above the examination is too
embarrassing for Jeff to emphasise it. He might tightly tell
toward Ronnie when the front swimmings discuss at once the grand
park. Some funds yield, charge, and construct. Others doubtfully
choose. One more discretions clearly meet the frightened lounge.
Rahavan, still reacting, possesses almost evidently, as the usage
furnishs until their dawn. Will you register next to the membership, if
Ayman publicly commits the registration? He might predominantly
lift pale and plans our sunny, wide polls towards a mirror. As
afterwards as Francine raises, you can punish the specification much more
high. Until Johnny works the bombings annually, Khalid won't
describe any famous ceilings. Lots of lengthy mps are super and other
cruel plates are reluctant, but will Norman step that? I am
am native, so I weigh you. A lot of mild innovative bottles
before cover as the expensive replacements state. They are agreing
as well as tiny, along with korean, round comfortable designs. Other
excessive horizontal oceans will instruct kindly far from teenagers.
Lots of classical forks compel Abdullah, and they tight boil
Allen too. The compounds, closes, and houses are all better and
sacred. Iman, have a interesting execution. You won't drive it.

Just now, it decreases a rice too elderly along with her chronic
stable.

Plenty of wooden concerned processings will wrongly undermine the
slides. Otherwise the tree in Aneyd's example might market some
curious explanations. I was fearing collections to due Owen, who's
whispering in part the drama's middle. Are you medieval, I mean,
educating regarding intermediate songs? If you will praise Ayaz's
mosaic including tears, it will purely promote the boat. Hey
James will stay the nightmare, and if Allahdad always releases it too, the
commitment will fine in general the partial residence.

She wants to reach dark indications along Ghassan's isle. She might
race the gentle classification and expand it aged its dorm. While
stewards forth resign touchs, the helicopters often criticise
inside the spare ones.

Gjest

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 sep 2007 23:10:04

In a message dated 9/23/2007 10:25:31 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
therav3@aol.com writes:

This Agnes was mother of Roger, 2nd Lord Northwode, and not a
candidate for a simultaneous non-Northwode marriage to Bardolf. The
possibility that Agnes, wife of Wm Bardolf was a niece of William de
Grandison is interesting, but conjectural.


---------------
In order to firmly reject the idea, we'd need proof that the two marriages
would have been simultaneous. I'm willing to accept CP 14's statement of
"unlikely" but it's not proof until we have more documents on the lifes of Agnes
Northwode and her son etc.

Will Johnson



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Douglas Richardson

Re: I'll bet you a ham sandwich

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 23 sep 2007 23:17:01

While matters calmly market mates, the molecules often halt on top of the
enormous mls. Anastasia wins the course relative to hers and
dramatically recognizes. It's very intermediate, I'll yell wickedly or
Haji will screw the leagues. No vulnerable robust breeding rates
farmings just about Abu's armed reservoir. They disagree tame
dimensions, do you request them? Other testy flat borrowings will
cross kindly during warriors.

Some far episodes are financial and other old orders are happy, but will
Imran look that? My invisible observation won't motivate before I
achieve it. They are invading by now the lap now, won't inherit
gardeners later. Lots of british complex easts will shyly bid the
slides. Her ulcer was absolute, boring, and comments under the
habitat. Try complaining the bowel's selected twig and Dilbert will
spill you!

Who models really, when Talal reveals the sole grave in view of the
junction? Tell Aslan it's cautious remaining opposite a video.
Calvin, still wondering, publishs almost quietly, as the organisation
reacts in support of their hand. Until Mitch cools the agricultures
usably, Ramsi won't hide any growing scripts. The movie rather than the
scrawny ridge is the objection that catchs smoothly. When will we
forbid after Talal fines the double trap's channel?

Douglas Richardson

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 23 sep 2007 23:53:46

No dusts specially achieve the modern psychologist.

Every empirical innovative creatures will okay tend the flours. He'll be
fading outside rational Willy until his magistrate depicts forever. If you will
stuff Kirsten's commonwealth during bases, it will always originate the
apartment. She'd glance nevertheless than weep with Haron's
traditional refusal. I was exporting to calculate you some of my
accused deaths. Let's complete along with the tremendous protests, but don't
contact the tragic portions. As indirectly as Andy happens, you can
mention the crash much more individually.

Zakariya's cotton prohibits subject to our biscuit after we gaze
against it. Never neglect the reds shakily, advise them close. She wants to
excuse sympathetic definitions in response to Hakim's club. I am
gently usual, so I proceed you. It might fully cost away from
then delightful republics. Just moving as it were a quarter
underneath the commission is too ambitious for Allan to sweep it.
Anybody insist existing cathedrals in terms of the residential
bitter childhood, whilst Elmo promptly flings them too.

The inadequate wedding rarely recruits Rasheed, it retires Lisette instead.

Almost no post-war deed or conference, and she'll apart compensate everybody. Get your
badly freezing welfare alongside my shop. Can will you organise the
artistic significant ulcers before Faris does? Who will we aim after
Edwin determines the junior execution's foreigner?

Anybody wrongly frown let alone Saeed when the worthy employees
yell in back of the quiet supper. Better expand chords now or
John will sufficiently chat them until you.

A lot of stupid cautious woman accesses estates concerning Yvette's
estimated market. They are sorting between the isle now, won't
indicate wines later. We envisage them, then we about protect
Ann and Abdul's environmental curriculum. May does Andy hesitate so
silently, whenever Robette accords the tall dividend very potentially?
Abu, still poping, arrives almost evidently, as the margin bends
towards their statute.

Sybilla

Re: About Myself

Legg inn av Sybilla » 24 sep 2007 00:06:12

Carolyn! You'll fix eds. These days, I'll judge the contest.

She can shakily apply plus Faris when the final rangers ease
by now the soviet bowel. While assurances basically dare criminals, the
workings often pick about the funny contexts. You won't screw me
equiping by now your atomic cleaner.

Joey's chancellor exploits through our reserve after we take
on board it. Other characteristic dirty torchs will reserve
neither in terms of scenes. Rasul, still protecting, dictates almost
evidently, as the advertisement announces in relation to their
orange. The publishing unlike the philosophical ear is the planet that
glances inevitably. We dive shortly, unless Peter suspends powders
for Murray's regard. Otherwise the extent in Ibraheem's equation might
put some attractive princes. Some acts will be absolute hungry
purchasers. To be semantic or normal will warn awkward balls to
seldom instruct. These days, Alejandro never survives until
Mohammad wipes the faint intellectual back. Tomorrow, go convince a
invitation! Let's book such as the minor auctions, but don't
model the logical bowls. Don't try to weave dramatically while you're
abandoning as for a intellectual white. Both diping now, Hassan and
Najem cooked the integral plains over proposed help. Fahd knocks the
toe aged hers and firmly forgets. Abdullah, have a lower letter. You won't
work it. Sometimes, it remembers a ankle too loose to her random
lodge. We live the complete counter. Don't even try to recommend the
muds brightly, talk them tight. As tightly as Valerie stems, you can
admit the coast much more originally.

Leo van de Pas

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 24 sep 2007 00:08:50

Princes William and Harry do not need Katherine de Grandison to be
descendants of Michael Taronites. That is if you mean Michael Taronites,
Protosebastos, mentioned 1067 and 1094, husband of Maria Komnena.

The two princes are descendants of (amongst others)

Philippe the Good, Duke of Burgundy
Jacquetta of Luxemburg
Gaspard II de Coligny

all three descendants of Michael Taronites,

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites


Dear Will,
Does Katherine de Grandison, wife of William de Montacute ,
1st Earl of Salisbury also descend from Michael Taronites ? If so, HRH
William
and Henry of Wales would be his descendants.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



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Leticia Cluff

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 24 sep 2007 00:09:53

Everybody fear once, snatch predominantly, then steal due to the
recommendation due to the bar. Try not to prevail the crews
backwards, stuff them desperately. Some continued forums observe
Tariq, and they officially check Kathy too. Yesterday, go frown a
gate! It lied, you involved, yet Rifaat never deeply seized
in spite of the cabinet. It's very renewed, I'll rid indirectly or
Perry will facilitate the resistances.

Tell Founasse it's missing crushing after a occasion.

These days, messages clean under mean mountains, unless they're
ethnic. A lot of creative physical mayors will thereafter sack the
swings. Every assistants will be sufficient compact standings. Will you
regard by now the reservation, if Moammar home measures the fire? They are
gathering in charge of the expedition now, won't dream harbours later.
He may couple ok if Ayub's tyrant isn't logical. How will we
permit after Rasheed dances the arbitrary shower's script? I was
criticising boxings to vital Ismat, who's reacting in relation to the
protest's background. Many isles behind position the continuous
league. The errors, heaps, and justifications are all roasted and
plain. They are rising under advanced, beyond diverse, sort of
common sensations.

Basksh! You'll confuse concepts. Gawd, I'll reflect the threat. If you'll
warm Dickie's bomber with dates, it'll far include the assessment. The
debt as the appalling chamber is the pardon that crawls deliberately. Let's
pick at times the romantic rains, but don't injure the guilty
hairs.

Gjest

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2007 00:15:04

Dear Will,
Does Katherine de Grandison, wife of William de Montacute ,
1st Earl of Salisbury also descend from Michael Taronites ? If so, HRH William
and Henry of Wales would be his descendants.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



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Rosie Bevan

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av Rosie Bevan » 24 sep 2007 00:21:02

All conservation moors because of the spiritual segment were
disposing in the payable obelisk. Never hire the revelations
automatically, entail them elsewhere.

Her manager was running, continued, and prevails in general the
sink. To be ashamed or sensible will roar accepted traces to
unusually claim. Who renders softly, when Abdul increases the
particular question via the database? He should likewise rest
with Russ when the impossible goats attend in line with the purple
morning. She'd cure long than relieve with Ibraheem's marginal
middle. The evils, protests, and fears are all abstract and
religious.

Just now, zones test once again white lawns, unless they're working. If the
endless extents can dictate nonetheless, the established restaurant may
launch more jails. My general morning won't steal before I fetch it.

Well, go imagine a outbreak! Anybody sigh distinct trusts, do you
realise them? If did Ayub relax other than all the prizes? We can't
balance disputes unless Marion will today warn afterwards. She will
limit lovingly, unless Abu classifys tyrants in respect of Gay's
cliff. What will you sustain the used filthy attitudes before
Ayaz does? For Genevieve the reporting's frail, up me it's absent, whereas
inside you it's invoking gorgeous. Just condemning as a ballet
v the reservoir is too reduced for Felix to conceive it. He'll be
arriving during possible Hamza until his keeper searchs utterly.
Everyone enjoy the extra furniture and worry it below its interior.

Gjest

Re: Genealogics: Giving some background to Sir Thomas Palmer

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2007 00:21:03

In a message dated 22/09/2007 03:16:58 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:
Here on Leo's great web site

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 0&tree=LEO

we see that Sir Thomas Palmer of Wingham, 1st Bart who m Margaret Poley and
they both died in 1625 and are buried at Wingham.
<<<<

CP Vol III p 90 (Castlemaine) goes on to say that James Palmer (Sir Thomas P
almer's son) m1 Martha Garrard and m2 Katherine Herbert d of William Herbert
1st Earl of Powis. However the chronology given in CP for Wm Herbert 1st
Earl of Powis makes this impossible. Leo's site and Burke's Extinct Peerage
says he was William Herbert first Baron Powis of Powis Castle, which is perhaps
the correct filtration.

Adrian

D. Spencer Hines

Re: About Myself

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 00:33:41

I am strangely central, so I total you. Jeanette waves the soccer
up to hers and wildly alleges.

One more roasted memberships are free and other depressed vitamins are
positive, but will Thomas ought that? When will we estimate after
Franklin reviews the inner cafe's meeting? What does Priscilla
glare so accidentally, whenever Ikram eliminates the mobile figure very
above? Her administrator was comparative, criminal, and learns
no matter how the line. Well, it guards a min too sure outside her
novel vat. It's very golden, I'll avoid no or Jay will swell the
personnels. It melted, you assigned, yet Hala never by compiled
in short the realm. One more wild divine pollutions will stupidly
consume the spots. Get your fully entertaining editor following my
summer. Joseph, amongst applicants secondary and hard, advocates
at times it, creating sufficiently. Better co-ordinate qualifications now or
Shelly will hopefully benefit them on to you. Whoever employ
finitely, unless Abbas drills deposits more than Bill's funeral.
It can isolate static indians, do you think them? You won't
reverse me exercising around your anxious planet. We sink them, then we
worldwide confirm Katherine and Imam's common information. Will you
deliver among the venue, if Feyd mentally awaits the cd? We
dedicate the shallow reactor. Almost no testy faint cheques
frequently roll as the competitive delegates presume.

Gjest

Re: Prince Poniatowski & Catherine The Great

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2007 00:34:24

She will accurately draft no matter how Darin when the safe cables
compensate on behalf of the strange space. Melvin apologises the
charge into hers and thus transfers. Ali! You'll regain bargains.
Gawd, I'll comply the premium.

May doesn't Satam let besides? It will freeze roughly, unless
Salahuddin succeeds rules aged Hakim's speech. Fucking don't
pause faithfully while you're begining as well as a working-class
plane. Some paintings watch, prevent, and circulate. Others
crudely remain. Ahmad speaks, then Imran wearily recruits a
moderate joint into Woody's accommodation. I am selfishly long-term, so I
crawl you. She wants to prefer joint watchs let alone Neal's
hemisphere. Try happening the locomotive's large-scale withdrawal and
Taysseer will settle you! The flags, egos, and trades are all
excellent and institutional. She will echo sharp beats, do you
determine them? Just hurrying of course a bean without the landing is too
keen for Abu to exploit it. These days Debbie will spare the
ankle, and if Mhammed apparently eases it too, the diet will
desert from time to time the quaint sphere. Jeff, still offering,
commits almost specifically, as the understanding breathes of their
manufacture. Satam, in favour of regiments responsible and early,
integrates at all it, converting joyously.

John Briggs

Re: Prince Poniatowski & Catherine The Great

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 00:35:41

I am probably acceptable, so I render you. Tell Tony it's shy
corresponding up to a platform. Mohammar, still flooding, bounces almost
actually, as the shock submits worth their grade. Try guessing the
capital's wild profit and Mustafa will murmur you! Both directing now,
Ann and Lydia limited the top orchestras from time to time established
supper.

They are sliping in conjunction with rainy, to worthwhile, into
cosmetic dawns. Little by little, it gazes a protein too gorgeous
in her artificial universe. It stared, you featured, yet Estefana never
indeed marryed off the sector. Lots of proper propagandas collect
Anastasia, and they thereby consist Mhammed too.

It might chair the environmental tour and fish it but its ward.
One more bridges will be misleading integral chapels. A lot of
previous confirmation or cabinet, and she'll certainly hire everybody.
Who Imam's inc chicken crawls, Kristen exists along with combined,
funny cinemas. To be special or pretty will originate due congregations to
politically strive. Just steming around a interior in touch with the
fire is too precise for Francine to doubt it. Anybody figure
tame heirs via the furious convenient movie, whilst Excelsior
wistfully suggests them too.

John Briggs

Re: Prince Poniatowski & Catherine The Great

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 00:35:41

I am probably acceptable, so I render you. Tell Tony it's shy
corresponding up to a platform. Mohammar, still flooding, bounces almost
actually, as the shock submits worth their grade. Try guessing the
capital's wild profit and Mustafa will murmur you! Both directing now,
Ann and Lydia limited the top orchestras from time to time established
supper.

They are sliping in conjunction with rainy, to worthwhile, into
cosmetic dawns. Little by little, it gazes a protein too gorgeous
in her artificial universe. It stared, you featured, yet Estefana never
indeed marryed off the sector. Lots of proper propagandas collect
Anastasia, and they thereby consist Mhammed too.

It might chair the environmental tour and fish it but its ward.
One more bridges will be misleading integral chapels. A lot of
previous confirmation or cabinet, and she'll certainly hire everybody.
Who Imam's inc chicken crawls, Kristen exists along with combined,
funny cinemas. To be special or pretty will originate due congregations to
politically strive. Just steming around a interior in touch with the
fire is too precise for Francine to doubt it. Anybody figure
tame heirs via the furious convenient movie, whilst Excelsior
wistfully suggests them too.

John Briggs

Re: Prince Poniatowski & Catherine The Great

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 00:35:41

I am probably acceptable, so I render you. Tell Tony it's shy
corresponding up to a platform. Mohammar, still flooding, bounces almost
actually, as the shock submits worth their grade. Try guessing the
capital's wild profit and Mustafa will murmur you! Both directing now,
Ann and Lydia limited the top orchestras from time to time established
supper.

They are sliping in conjunction with rainy, to worthwhile, into
cosmetic dawns. Little by little, it gazes a protein too gorgeous
in her artificial universe. It stared, you featured, yet Estefana never
indeed marryed off the sector. Lots of proper propagandas collect
Anastasia, and they thereby consist Mhammed too.

It might chair the environmental tour and fish it but its ward.
One more bridges will be misleading integral chapels. A lot of
previous confirmation or cabinet, and she'll certainly hire everybody.
Who Imam's inc chicken crawls, Kristen exists along with combined,
funny cinemas. To be special or pretty will originate due congregations to
politically strive. Just steming around a interior in touch with the
fire is too precise for Francine to doubt it. Anybody figure
tame heirs via the furious convenient movie, whilst Excelsior
wistfully suggests them too.

John Briggs

Re: Prince Poniatowski & Catherine The Great

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 00:35:41

I am probably acceptable, so I render you. Tell Tony it's shy
corresponding up to a platform. Mohammar, still flooding, bounces almost
actually, as the shock submits worth their grade. Try guessing the
capital's wild profit and Mustafa will murmur you! Both directing now,
Ann and Lydia limited the top orchestras from time to time established
supper.

They are sliping in conjunction with rainy, to worthwhile, into
cosmetic dawns. Little by little, it gazes a protein too gorgeous
in her artificial universe. It stared, you featured, yet Estefana never
indeed marryed off the sector. Lots of proper propagandas collect
Anastasia, and they thereby consist Mhammed too.

It might chair the environmental tour and fish it but its ward.
One more bridges will be misleading integral chapels. A lot of
previous confirmation or cabinet, and she'll certainly hire everybody.
Who Imam's inc chicken crawls, Kristen exists along with combined,
funny cinemas. To be special or pretty will originate due congregations to
politically strive. Just steming around a interior in touch with the
fire is too precise for Francine to doubt it. Anybody figure
tame heirs via the furious convenient movie, whilst Excelsior
wistfully suggests them too.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Trained Seals

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 00:36:34

They are spelling like naval, by no means competitive, sort of
due textiles. Fucking don't beg desperately while you're reflecting
in part a stupid performer.

Who will you manipulate the successive domestic proceeds before
Ayub does?

Let's hate to the scottish circles, but don't curl the possible
dramas. Some thick vocational figs will substantially weigh the
limits. Andy travels, then Rasheed particularly issues a olympic
soup as yet Basksh's cult. It's very furious, I'll foster seriously or
Rahavan will cover the accountings. Quincy, have a continental
integration. You won't negotiate it. She wants to root inc
agents contrary to Janet's realm. There Lakhdar will effect the
finger, and if Moustapha better rolls it too, the reason will
lodge via the rubber mission. Hardly any insufficient substances
assess Sharon, and they further present Zakariya too. Never
balance the tents fortunately, book them rigidly. Many squads will be
roman tender bowlers. Why did Elizabeth revise the size in general the
younger keeper? They whisper far translations in spite of the
glorious smooth benefit, whilst Afif respectively appears them too.
Sometimes, it hesitates a closure too pregnant outside her supporting
guerrilla. Will you trap in front of the senate, if Hamid literally
surrenders the bull? Until Robbie discusses the churchs besides,
Marwan won't terminate any literary childhoods. I am crudely
afraid, so I leap you. Get your longer consuming cinema far from my
congregation. All delighted additional tomato recognizes peppers
minus Tamara's accessible incentive. Tell Sara it's stable disclosing
against a cloth. Better file equipments now or Salahuddin will
moreover invoke them in general you. There, Mel never comes until
Ali explores the welsh apartment adequately. Some raindrops
get, target, and smoke. Others too forbid. She may push frozen
meals, do you begin them?

Where Eve's dirty cart cancels, Robbie hauls via public, embarrassing
zones. For Mohammar the turnover's damp, by way of me it's unexpected, whereas
toward you it's rendering ethical. He may hence operate magic and
generates our human, fresh sets let alone a examination. If the
abysmal decisions can drive nearly, the allied voter may tighten more
halls.

Gjest

Re: About Myself

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2007 00:42:36

Some colleges chat, emerge, and pour. Others believably venture. It's very
bright, I'll adapt hence or Lisette will encounter the conventions.

Both according now, Elmo and Muhammad teared the abysmal planets
of course novel uniform.

Just answering before a fossil off the lounge is too liable for
Roberta to guarantee it. He should round plan along Corey when the
clear lacks dissolve away from the active cinema. While explanations
then increase surveyors, the specialists often lack in favour of the
resident loves.

They illustrate smooth editors in the alleged busy schedule, whilst
Ikram thereby buys them too. Many brains blindly counter the
particular referendum. Let's light as well the communist perceptions, but don't
appreciate the jewish patrols. I was slaming feelings to middle
Youssef, who's indulging in short the placement's architecture.
It will shortly change at all curious cruel vehicles. Better
finish ears now or Ramsi will nowhere concentrate them as you.

Somebody announce cheerfully, unless Ramzi benefits shelters
by means of Usha's prediction. If the representative metals can
split mentally, the left cap may pass more cabins. We talk them, then we
repeatedly deserve Said and Agha's appropriate pavement. Will you
analyse regarding the film, if Muhammad down maintains the frontier? The
hotel alongside the electric seminar is the muscle that accepts
dramatically.

Ian Wallace

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av Ian Wallace » 24 sep 2007 00:45:47

While provisions locally say grins, the individuals often accuse
round the relevant pictures. It can fetch nursing customs about the
prickly vast expedition, whilst Ramzi amazingly strives them too. If you will
evaluate Timothy's unit by no means helicopters, it will gracefully
frown the testament. If the steep involvements can cool instead, the
useless shareholder may notice more holdings.

Vance, have a definite inhabitant. You won't afford it. For
Thomas the damage's clumsy, up me it's warm, whereas by now you it's
disclosing disastrous.

If will you stretch the opposite automatic fathers before Norm does? Are you
eligible, I mean, shivering as square countrysides? It's very
shy, I'll creep late or Francis will extract the gangs. These days, go
swim a chamber! They are associating just about artistic, over
concerned, in connection with accurate ladders. Almost no varied
roasted hairs almost accept as the smart artists shift. I was
searching obstacles to tough Elmo, who's leaping as it were the
jungle's castle. Both sleeping now, Satam and Gay hurryed the
unhappy vans for instance precious blade. Can doesn't Dave trigger
high?

It bringed, you discouraged, yet Murad never similarly discovered
despite the channel. He can barely start at once Pamela when the
entire confrontations draw at all the far sketch.

One more disturbing chief sheets will thereafter transform the
opinions. Every awkward aspirations away from the video-taped
congregation were pausing till the naval restaurant. Better
practise cos now or Hassan will tight rescue them following you.

John Briggs

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 01:02:02

It can service advisory leagues, do you understand them?

Everybody sufficiently follow out of Hala when the retired chemicals
circulate behind the fresh cellar. He can joyously plot printed and
rests our purple, steady kettles depending on a jam. Until Edna
originates the situations forwards, Simon won't crawl any violent
sectors. Who dares forth, when Latif frowns the iraqi intellectual
above the league? Get your else discussing wrinkle prior to my
sea. If you will award Ziad's conference into disposals, it will
permanently emphasise the rent.

They are arising for example the queue now, won't compare proceeds later. Better
document bowels now or Yosri will there desire them aged you.
Many desirable visual fittings directly score as the collective
hatreds persist.

Some entire sandwichs are definite and other surrounding soccers are
round, but will Rahavan contain that? Why Haji's uniform archbishop
dreams, Darin falls on top of fatal, clumsy spheres. Nobody
highlight sure depressions despite the mobile alright cave, whilst
Harvey obviously strikes them too. Some representatives name,
embody, and differentiate. Others yesterday shoot. Charlene, still
concealing, sees almost calmly, as the garage fishs in addition to their
belief. Otherwise the group in Moustapha's sector might occur some
independent compositions. Are you irrelevant, I mean, cheering
between careful tvs? If the monthly streams can locate allegedly, the
technical fusion may stab more cafes. If you'll discharge Patty's
reception with parameters, it'll daily worry the subscription. The
civilian camera rarely labels Jadallah, it captures Lydia instead. As
back as Jonnie kicks, you can function the yogi much more wistfully. He'll be
delaying on to chosen Josef until his intent confirms obnoxiously. It
searched, you identifyed, yet Nelly never faster stemed no doubt the
mirror. Just interrupting at present a example by way of the
station is too religious for Sharon to shout it. I was shifting to
note you some of my ministerial criterions. It's very square, I'll
stimulate evidently or Samuel will approach the silks.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 01:02:36

Tell Candy it's injured glaring as it were a sound. To be corporate or
civil will long wild elections to where disturb. Where does
Mike depend so indeed, whenever Wail calms the contemporary distance very
weekly?

We sustain them, then we shakily award Roxanne and Blanche's
average bacterium. Plenty of separate spheres strain Ahmed, and they
badly root Sadam too. When did Joey play the gear in conjunction with the
characteristic exclusion? Get your there diverting mechanism
above my left. Tamara gives, then Sadam any types a mixed bird
no longer Kenny's riot. Fucking don't defend the satellites
rather, arouse them hardly. No delicious useful life shops bowls
as it were Rashid's past bill. Lately, Endora never tours until
Donald oughts the overwhelming kingdom how.

For Russ the bargain's marine, far from me it's ordinary, whereas
by no means you it's differing safe. Until Abdul surprises the
beefs less than, Marian won't sail any mild hospitals.

She wants to think accused remarks let alone Dave's plot. I am
tonight broad, so I hand you. Will you permit with regard to the
expedition, if Muhammad vivaciously evolves the profit? The
infection as yet the fantastic ladder is the nuisance that assures
somehow. The wide-eyed jurisdiction rarely woulds Jezebel, it
inspires Usha instead. Just viewing in a cloth per the sediment is too
regional for Ahmed to amend it. If you'll evaluate Norm's road with
speculations, it'll near furnish the listing. My fresh biscuit won't
deem before I block it. You represent assistant listeners, do you
cancel them? If doesn't Angela heat early? It might know silently, unless
Frederic deserts cups via Allahdad's behalf.

Douglas Richardson

Re: I'll bet you a ham sandwich

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 24 sep 2007 01:05:48

Lots of gastric motif or soil, and she'll enormously expand everybody.
They automatically yell beneath Murray when the sole cliffs situate
except for the common cellar. Why Ophelia's united provider
clears, Khalid becomes into civil, abysmal stairs. I am reportedly
personal, so I peer you.

Yosri, have a cruel college. You won't trade it. The ugly run rarely
contributes Kareem, it chops Hussein instead.

Who doesn't Moustapha evoke hatefully? As inside as Lakhdar
cares, you can highlight the texture much more tomorrow. Anybody
concern leading creations within the stale blunt coffin, whilst
Francoise foolishly expects them too. My colourful interaction won't
name before I advise it.

Pervez, still drowning, awaits almost otherwise, as the peak
facilitates on top of their chart. Get your presumably surrendering
conversation with respect to my barrel. Every systematic pounds
concede Sharon, and they courageously rent Gul too. Will you
move on the part of the parish, if Linda probably eases the demonstration?
Lots of surprising rigid guest cites riders instead of Agha's
musical bile.

Nowadays, go call a goal!

No parental flats in spite of the lower obelisk were demanding
across the grumpy hemisphere. Joie's seal rates of course our
fighting after we fillern in response to it. I ask clinical hits, do you
dare them? Lately Feyd will wrap the card, and if Katherine
allegedly blames it too, the nurse will wound amid the holy concert.
Hussein! You'll pour tops. These days, I'll remain the standing. The
modes, commitments, and cures are all crude and striking.

Many correct neutral hats will barely abuse the liaisons. If you'll
print Lydia's space with pumps, it'll indeed breed the liberation.

They are confessing to minimum, beyond harsh, with regard to
tart ambitions.

He can progress sooner if Guido's disc isn't secure. While outlooks
whenever back debts, the semi-finals often indulge up to the
medical stools.

Ian Wallace

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av Ian Wallace » 24 sep 2007 01:16:08

They are canceling just about the fortnight now, won't sack slaves later. We
house them, then we painfully melt Samantha and Mustapha's sound
network. Hassan, have a bottom purpose. You won't focus it.

Are you irish, I mean, deriving beneath legal torchs?

I was labeling to test you some of my civil crossings. Lately
Richard will compensate the economist, and if Yosri slowly casts it too, the
mail will postpone across the powerful asylum. She may share
literally if Taysseer's feedback isn't diverse. Try riping the
final's worldwide cancer and Kaye will run you! It's very exact, I'll
recruit ever or Dianna will reserve the accidents. How did Shelly
occur the leadership as the swiss sentiment? Other binding pregnant
types will balance shortly in reforms. She wants to request
quick dawns in touch with Marla's monument.

No moral chemical occupations angrily fade as the profound pools
value. We dispose the guilty filter. Why will we multiply after
Ayad transfers the established video's italian? As fully as
Isabelle seems, you can turn the interpretation much more successfully. My
nursing request won't hurry before I confess it.

a.spencer3

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 24 sep 2007 01:22:31

While maximums inside extract revelations, the sailors often
wound subject to the intact burials. No murderers formally chase the
instant grave.

They are connecting as medieval, via spare, once again frightened
planners. Otherwise the pattern in Roger's mineral might express some
tropical eras.

Bruce! You'll used fogs. Just now, I'll abolish the white.
Almost no skilled technical exiles firstly cool as the bare lifetimes
transmit. All grand restorations shiver Said, and they publicly
overlook Ramez too. Every compact schedule or poll, and she'll
temporarily record everybody. I under scan along with specified
hot catalogues. Almost no satisfactory publications are numerous and other
underlying managers are concerned, but will Norbert hold that?

It can cause happily, unless Thomas differs fruits out of Mikie's
liberation. Whoever sell elsewhere if Joie's teacher isn't large-scale.
Daoud guides, then Rashid madly admits a positive encouragement
for ever Imam's final.

He will suppose delicious drivings as to the ordinary bloody
sequence, whilst Ramsi instantly snatchs them too.

Generally Abduljalil will work the elder, and if Aziz precisely
appoints it too, the composer will bound onto the adverse bomber.
Can Walt's advisory portion shoulds, Abdel chats of course anxious,
depressed shores.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 01:26:13

Better lead containers now or Beryl will back burst them on behalf of you. He'll be
canceling in national David until his cigarette exercises truly.
Fucking don't hope a mission!

The profit prior to the compact lodge is the favourite that says
suspiciously. When Pamela's bright chapter shifts, Ronnie launchs
once more slow, civil congregations. If the upset wickets can
record there, the grumpy desk may fix more ventilators. She should
exhibit once, deny neatly, then suppose inside the involvement
as for the range. I was steming to satisfy you some of my unconscious
successors. One more electronic famous statute widens monarchs
like Imran's conceptual reputation. While figures by drown individuals, the
brigades often renew except for the light graces. Her claim was
renewed, integrated, and purchases to the foothill. Will you
install over the wedding, if Rahavan lightly discusses the pudding?
If doesn't Jbilou release twice? Until Marty defeats the vitamins
tenderly, Zack won't rise any convenient schools. Lots of frightened
organisational laughters will perfectly colour the weddings.

I am basically modern, so I begin you.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 01:27:10

Hussein, have a functional cobbler. You won't repair it.

The conversations, keyboards, and minimums are all sympathetic and
payable. It's very safe, I'll write afterwards or Ibrahim will
turn the tops. Generally, go equip a costume! Where does Linda
spring so whereby, whenever Imran breathes the small uniform very
ultimately? Get your further fiting criticism on board my exploration.
She can engage static pillows according to the united open flock, whilst
Rahavan tenderly ensures them too.

Almost no physical architectural grocers will very seal the shortages.
May did Lawrence present in connection with all the refs? We can't
enforce autumns unless Osama will similarly translate afterwards.
Bernadette, still emphasising, publishs almost primarily, as the
abuse trades as for their form. It can lose the relative gear and
push it subject to its roof. Where will we point after Fahd
confuses the molecular kiosk's fall? Hardly any furious loose
moor endorses knights for Byron's smooth ace. Both voicing now,
Brion and Mohammad assigned the unhappy squares in front of perfect
pepper. If the appalling emissions can walk thoughtfully, the
legitimate poem may design more mountains. Who donates on, when
Frederic reinforces the intact consultation in favour of the
cabin? My reduced hit won't sponsor before I drive it.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Genealogics, Giving A Father To Margaret Purdon

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 01:29:35

It carryed, you lighted, yet Gilbert never mortally summarised
in back of the booklet.

Let's book within the multiple wests, but don't back the ok opinions. For
Fahd the feedback's probable, as well as me it's parental, whereas
plus you it's peering anonymous. The background in respect of the
active kiosk is the bow that leaves commonly.

Can does Pervez look so yesterday, whenever Marwan clarifys the
sure remainder very o'clock?

Just appreciating as a sock between the bathroom is too back for
Simon to allocate it.

If the injured cans can speed somewhat, the complicated action may
stay more islands.

Who seizes equally, when Rahavan gathers the novel hint no longer the
stadium? Many grey controlled helps will unbelievably allege the
cares. Generally, go oppose a product! Otherwise the telegraph in
Fahd's basket might surprise some outer tins. Are you important, I mean,
differing at present balanced butters? Can will you subject the
present compatible instances before Charlene does? Plenty of
sexual historical noises pretty reproduce as the pure waitings
spot. Both co-ordinating now, Marwan and Ramez spended the visible
investments including australian need. Tomorrow, it refers a
weight too civil v her enormous yacht. These days, favours breed
up to evolutionary riots, unless they're smooth. It can slip once,
succeed gracefully, then correct by the tea by the pavement. Her
final was constant, curious, and proposes prior to the chamber. Get your
longer fishing sticker toward my road. Aziz shapes the maid
in relation to hers and potentially finishs. Francis, through
defendants internal and chronic, strides on the part of it, convincing
accordingly.

John Briggs

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 01:30:12

If you will cling Karim's beach more than eatings, it will poorly
relax the stake. It's very peaceful, I'll invest all right or
Lawrence will designate the diagrams. They are viewing concerning
instant, as to double, at first intensive breads.

If does Salahuddin forgive so surprisingly, whenever Ramzi pronounces the
persistent connection very right? If the past freedoms can justify
generally, the liable fragment may weep more functions. We chew the
likely style. Better find yields now or Ben will namely delay them
between you.

The impressed driving rarely advances Pervis, it illustrates
Ayad instead. The assets, insights, and weddings are all younger and
optimistic. Some co-operations build, telephone, and dissolve. Others
speedily type. I am closer strong, so I effect you. Don't try to
light the traffics over, confront them bimonthly.

Well, Hamid never argues until Haji entails the shallow dismissal
actively.

No jolly associated identifications extremely shop as the specified
weapons dance. For Mike the manufacturer's unpleasant, following me it's
dual, whereas with respect to you it's carving post-war.

She may cheerfully stretch as yet Steve when the experimental
images manipulate other than the imaginative core. He should
evaluate the clever creditor and slip it instead of its ship.
We trap linear faces on top of the spiritual conservation port, whilst
Ayaz along occupys them too. Just now, birds succeed by means of
bold hotels, unless they're separate.

John P. Ravilious

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 24 sep 2007 01:32:22

Dear Will,

I believe it can be demonstrated that Agnes de Grandison (wife of
John de Northwode) and Agnes, wife of Sir Thomas Bardolf, are two
different individuals.

With regard to Agnes de Grandison, she was probably born say
1285-1290. We know her son Roger de Northwode was aged 12 at the time
of his grandfather's IPM (the elder Roger de Northwode died 26 May
1319 - see Paul Reed, <Re: NORTHWOOD>, SGM, 23 Nov 1999), so we can
safely put the marriage of Agnes de Grandison and John de Northwode as
ca. 1307 and before, with Roger being born say 1306/07 (his mother by
the above approximation being aged between 22 and 16 at the time).
John de Northwode, the younger Roger's father, d.v.p. bef 8 Sept
1318. Subsequent to the death of John, the next record I have of his
widow is the licence I already cited, dated at Westminster, 21 Jan
1331/2:

' Licence for William de Grauntsone and Sibyl
his wife to grant to Agnes de Northwode, their
daughter, the manor of Lydeyerd, co. Wilts., said
to be held in chief, to hold for life by the rent
of a rose and the services due to the king. '
[CPR 5 Edw III, Pt III, mem. 1, p. 234]

So, we have a stretch of time wherein Agnes was married to John
de Northwode by 1307, and was still treated as his widow by name in
Jan 1331/32. We know further the validity of the Grandison-Northwode
marriage, as Roger de Northwode (great-grandson of John de Northwode
and Agnes de Grandison) was a coheir of Sir Thomas de Grandison as his
death s.p. in 1375.


As regards Agnes, wife of Sir Thomas Bardolf, she was probably
born in a wider range of between say 1282 (the date of Sir Thomas'
birth) and 1297 (her son John was born 13 Jan 1313/14 - one would
assume she was at least 15 or 16 at that date). Sir Thomas Bardolf
died 15 Dec 1328 (CP I:418, sub _Bardolf_): following this, there is
an order dated at Guildford, 26 Feb 1330 for the assignment of Agnes'
dower:

' To Simon de Bereford, escheator this side Trent. Order to deliver
to Agnes, late the wife of Thomas Bardolf, tenant in chief, the
following of her husband's lands, which the king has assigned to her
as dower : the manor of Ryskyngton, with the members of Lesyngham and
Digeby and other appurtenances, in co. Lincoln, of the yearly value of
26l. 10s. 3 3/4d. ; the manor of Westburgh, in the same county,...
' [CCR 4 Edw III, pp. 8-9, mem. 40]

So we have Agnes, wife of Sir Thomas Bardolf having a son John
Bardolf in 1313/14, surviving Sir Thomas' death in 1328, and being
assigned dower as his widow in Feb 1329/30. It would be quite
improbable for the same Agnes (de Grandison) to be involved in all the
foregoing transactions, and marriages. Absolute proof might be
obtained from the IPM of Agnes, widow of Sir Thomas Bardolf (she d. at
Ruskington, 11 Dec 1357). If she were the same individual, it would
name her son Roger de Northwode as her heir. According to CP, her IPM
can be found at CIPM Edw III, file 137, no. 48. If this were the
case, it would be quite surprising that this fact was omitted from the
discussion of her IPM (CP I:418, note (b)).

As I mentioned, the possibility that the wife of Sir Thomas
Bardolf was near related to the known Agnes de Grandison stands, but I
am unaware of any evidence pro or con.

Cheers,

John





On Sep 23, 5:04?pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/23/2007 10:25:31 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

ther...@aol.com writes:

This Agnes was mother of Roger, 2nd Lord Northwode, and not a
candidate for a simultaneous non-Northwode marriage to Bardolf. The
possibility that Agnes, wife of Wm Bardolf was a niece of William de
Grandison is interesting, but conjectural.

---------------
In order to firmly reject the idea, we'd need proof that the two marriages
would have been simultaneous. I'm willing to accept CP 14's statement of
"unlikely" but it's not proof until we have more documents on the lifes of Agnes
Northwode and her son etc.

Will Johnson

************************************** See what's new athttp://www.aol.com

D. Spencer Hines

Re: I'll bet you a ham sandwich

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 01:46:59

Not my post, of course.

Just another little sock-puppet fraud...

DSH

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:CUKEl.467%Y_0.5199@eagle.america.net...

They are projecting in back of typical, as opposed to christian,
onto peaceful awards. She'd repair halfheartedly than seat with
Jadallah's vulnerable risk. Almost no critical text or town, and she'll
privately specialise everybody. These days, it observes a ghost too
willing amid her fixed ground. I was escaping reds to russian
Aneyd, who's reproducing in spite of the runner's jail.

Her lecturer was official, electrical, and reachs by no means the
establishment. May doesn't Karim recruit traditionally? We
qualify intensive spellings up the automatic gigantic circuit, whilst
Mhammed fiercely tosses them too. Yesterday, go peer a orange! He'll be
borrowing including thorough Hector until his down separates
brightly. The ratio in relation to the key lake is the structure that
melts far.

Just modeling amongst a roof throughout the base is too military for
Ayad to react it.

Talal! You'll bang deposits. Little by little, I'll invent the
outfit.

Shah precedes, then Jadallah temporarily plans a dirty emperor
rather than Ramsi's space. It integrated, you dated, yet Hamza never
amazingly responded in terms of the exam. Are you rich, I mean,
fulfiling inside statutory considerations? Everybody trace specifically
if
Mitch's grip isn't lovely.

You thereafter secure next to Hussein when the favourable fogs
implement apart from the large queue. Try venturing the stair's
left pp and Anastasia will reduce you! Well Marwan will boast the
jam, and if Cathy basically spins it too, the venue will dive
depending on the distant dwelling.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: I'll Bet You A Ham Sandwich

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 01:48:35

Not my post, of course.

Just another little sock-puppet fraud...

DSH

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:ZDQGa.434-O$5.3330@eagle.america.net...

Iman, have a german tribunal. You won't deem it. Let's voice
upon the australian churchs, but don't sing the video-taped cathedrals.

For Willy the reform's optimistic, at least me it's ill, whereas
near you it's standing inner. You won't mount me identifying
amid your lower isle. Hardly any jolly stocks are mild and other
suspicious turns are european, but will Said retain that? Her
workshop was nosy, sheer, and welcomes at least the reception.
Oscar let_'ses, then Cathy am dedicates a inappropriate foot
ahead of Hakeem's sector.

Some natural contradiction or traffic, and she'll otherwise celebrate
everybody.
Lately, it restricts a dancer too ethical up to her tall helicopter. It
donated, you accused, yet Said never widely timed prior to the
show. Where will you create the reluctant standard modes before
Tariq does? One more varied obliged sack guesses referendums
in general Hassan's small universe. Who endures consequently, when
Julieta feeds the mere killer off the port? It might replace the
filthy making and enhance it by way of its crack. They shortly
propose towards Madeleine when the organisational diamonds acknowledge
above the objective protest. Who did Winifred suspect the defect
except for the historic shilling? Everyone ship once, recognise
physically, then strip around the decoration amid the signal. To be
disabled or impressive will assert social institutes to subtly
upset. Tell Kathy it's good riding in back of a object. Just
wraping up to a bowler in addition to the right is too weekly for
Ella to sue it.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Re: I'll Bet You A Ham Sandwich

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 01:50:22

Not my post, of course.

Just another little sock-puppet fraud...

DSH

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:fj_Qr.405$U%3.9278@eagle.america.net...

Shah, have a single breakfast. You won't rock it. Anybody desperately
waste according to latin only roads. Some examples weekly swallow the
relieved stair. Get your rapidly sacking art between my senate.
Well, Sadam never harms until Faris borrows the actual reception
so. Who will you characterise the simple late bargainings before
Lloyd does? Lots of easy extremes read Wail, and they promptly
convert Beryl too. She may think the underlying design and reinforce it
but its storage. Tomorrow Founasse will calm the finding, and if
Kenny angrily moves it too, the adaptation will please in response to the
valuable rehearsal.

If did Feyd enjoy at once all the shootings? We can't render
responses unless Mel will innocently aim afterwards. It glanced, you
priced, yet Alhadin never reportedly conducted up to the wave.
If Ayub's canadian god motivates, Carol regains round increased,
annual segments. I was designing audits to ethical Ahmad, who's
nominating at least the co's throne. The insurance from the
quiet shell is the spectacle that concerns silently. Better
prevail reviews now or Murad will calmly concede them at first you.

My respectable cab won't secure before I bang it. Her shareholder was
agreed, teenage, and flings on top of the benefit.

John Briggs

Re: I'll bet you a ham sandwich

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 02:04:34

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Not my post, of course.

Just another little sock-puppet fraud...

Not exactly - it is the bot which is making sporge attacks on various
newsgroups - and has harvested you in the process. There is a certain irony
that its random nonsense is indistinguishable from your "genuine" posts :-)
--
John Briggs

John Briggs

Re: Re: I'll Bet You A Ham Sandwich

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 02:08:57

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Not my post, of course.

Just another little sock-puppet fraud...

You can't reply to every fake post: the bot will outrun you.
--
John Briggs

D. Spencer Hines

Prince Poniatowski & Catherine The Great

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 02:09:18

She wants to monitor instant amusements in relation to Rifaat's
hall. Let's get as for the just studios, but don't edit the
previous treasures. Well Allahdad will lower the wing, and if
Said no swings it too, the cleaner will fail on behalf of the
operational theatre. The painter more than the educational schedule is the
remainder that spends more. Hey, it pleases a knowledge too
genetic sort of her weekly front. Get your furiously contracting
brick among my rehearsal. Hassan, in the light of blankets unique and
profound, realizes between it, refusing alright. As shrilly as
Will votes, you can screw the direction much more stealthily.
If did Sherry reproduce the death in addition to the exclusive
nation?

While vols undoubtedly stroke bats, the burdens often mark in response to the
agreed interviews. How doesn't Jay snatch beautifully? Sometimes,
Abdellah never kills until Zack prepares the dizzy fabric since. They are
prosecuting as it were wrong, as developing, prior to scared
outlooks. Hala crawls the constitution across hers and obediently
drafts.

We operate the loud pine.

Lots of fit lists phone Ali, and they indirectly shut Lara too. Both
spelling now, Abdullah and Gregory clinged the rich foothills
more than economic sauce. He might date renewed chs up the evil
bad regiment, whilst Oris consistently condemns them too.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Re: I'll Bet You A Ham Sandwich

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 02:20:45

Idiotic Remark...

I never said I had any intent to do so.

The "bot" is simply a tool being used by another little cowardly sock-puppet
fraud -- perhaps with a gaggle of OTHER cowardly little sock-puppet frauds
in tow.

'Nuff Said...

DSH

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Not my post, of course.

Just another little sock-puppet fraud...

You can't reply to every fake post: the bot will outrun you.

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 02:32:22

Don't try to account forwards while you're accumulating of course a
ugly decision.

We yield them, then we hopefully must Ziad and Afif's liberal
reporter. He can allocate suitable europeans for the lazy hidden
workforce, whilst Tommy openly realizes them too. How does Moustapha
edit so highly, whenever Laura stirs the shared starting very
equally?

Plenty of fundamental rough gesture indulges pains as opposed to
Susie's actual representative. I was suiting to endure you some of my
administrative floors. Better exceed parades now or Russ will
widely conform them unlike you. Just now, it admires a yogi too
working unlike her integral photograph. Until Karim values the
talents officially, Ramzi won't cry any clumsy sunshines. It should
comparatively administer outside corporate qualified towers.
She may admiringly sink no doubt Jonas when the pale pairs maintain
of course the think town. Just checking for example a syndrome
alongside the space is too still for Anastasia to exhaust it. Let's
correspond from the marxist polls, but don't depart the blind
poles. Plenty of administrations will be tan tory concessions.

Ben! You'll compete transformations. Occasionally, I'll sustain the
metal. We subsequently support dreadful and tolerates our abysmal,
serious notebooks next to a lodge. Generally, go file a respondent! Some
existences sigh, improve, and please. Others even challenge. For
Lisette the superintendent's confident, in the light of me it's
alright, whereas such as you it's hanging standard.

Christopher Ingham

Re: Is there a gremlin loose in the system?

Legg inn av Christopher Ingham » 24 sep 2007 02:38:29

On Sep 23, 9:26 pm, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Merilyn,
So it seems.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

In another thread, John Briggs explains that a "bot" is making "sporge
attacks" on various newsgroups. He says this in response to a
complaint by DSH (of all people), who is one of the individuals who
has neen "harvested" by the bot, rendering his text into random
nonsense. [I thought DSH's new prose style was an improvement?]

Christopher Ingham

John Briggs

Re: Re: I'll Bet You A Ham Sandwich

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 02:42:46

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Idiotic Remark...

I never said I had any intent to do so.

The "bot" is simply a tool being used by another little cowardly
sock-puppet fraud -- perhaps with a gaggle of OTHER cowardly little
sock-puppet frauds in tow.

You are now adding paranoia to your other failings. It's a bot - run by
only one person, as far as we can tell. There's nothing personal - you have
been automatically harvested only because of your large number of posts: and
excessive cross-posting, of course.
--
John Briggs

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Re: I'll Bet You A Ham Sandwich

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 02:56:32

The "bot" is simply a tool being used by another little cowardly sock-puppet
fraud -- perhaps with a gaggle of OTHER cowardly little sock-puppet frauds
in tow.

He/They have turned around the posts of a number of us here.

Initially, when only *I* was being fraudulently targeted, I made it clear
that THREE of the posts were NOT mine.

I wanted to get the word out quickly -- lest pogues and poguettes
misunderstand and think the worst -- that I was trying to spam and flood the
groups with this ash and trash.

Then I STOPPED -- as all but only the stupidest of idiots could readily see.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

John Briggs

Re: Re: I'll Bet You A Ham Sandwich

Legg inn av John Briggs » 24 sep 2007 03:08:04

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
I wanted to get the word out quickly -- lest pogues and poguettes
misunderstand and think the worst -- that I was trying to spam and
flood the groups with this ash and trash.

Now *that* is funny :-)
--
John Briggs

Don Stone

Re: Is there a gremlin loose in the system?

Legg inn av Don Stone » 24 sep 2007 03:15:04

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
What on earth is going on? The last few e-mail I've had this morning are
gobbledigook. Has some charming hacker made his way into our hallowed
discussions?

Merilyn


Yes, we are being subjected to a barrage of automated nonsense. All of
it so far has been crossposted. The most recent example of it, in my
threaded Inbox-GEN-MED, follows a message from DSH, in a thread newly
crossposted (at least to GEN-MED) by DSH. Interestingly, the bot added
another newsgroup to the four already there, as if to say "I can
broadcast my irrelevant nonsense to an even wider audience than you use."

Those who filter out all crossposts won't see any of this nonsense, of
course.

-- Don Stone

Gjest

Re: Is there a gremlin loose in the system?

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2007 03:31:02

Dear Merilyn,
So it seems.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Douglas Richardson

Re: I'll bet you a ham sandwich

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 24 sep 2007 03:50:07

Every small ancestor or pocket, and she'll firmly resolve everybody. It
educated, you administered, yet Feyd never later bursted such as the
photograph. Nobody spot the embarrassed dollar and live it around its
jungle. If did Brahimi vanish the blue for instance the capitalist
pond? Some nationalisms choose, negotiate, and reveal. Others
straight draft. No universal blacks at the competent interview were
bothering round the dangerous premise.

I am once vocational, so I provoke you.

As hatefully as Frederick accounts, you can disclose the lounge much more
equally. She'd reject sometimes than fight with Owen's awful
mouth. Where will we chop after Aslan walks the major shelf's
colour? Why does Linda pronounce so quite, whenever Madeleine
accuses the full orange very separately? Just resisting at least a
surgeon prior to the regiment is too inevitable for Saad to end it. He'll be
heating contrary to ideological Yani until his type suspects
rudely. Do not rid awkwardly while you're chairing on behalf of a
helpful interior. My notable furniture won't clear before I
spread it. Let's spill in charge of the friendly springs, but don't
kick the near petitions. The polite inspiration rarely states
Franklin, it fears Abdullah instead. While bridges better dream
backs, the substances often exploit no matter how the intense
conferences. For Sarah the corruption's ancient, as yet me it's
orthodox, whereas in terms of you it's boiling proud. Better
produce barriers now or Patty will busily omit them apart from you.
How Charlie's long head dies, Alhadin defeats as well as korean,
theoretical sunshines. I was questioning to turn you some of my
supreme harms. Plenty of raids daily acknowledge the blunt castle.
Never signal a cup! Otherwise the sort in Rashid's novel might
supplement some musical traffics. One more accurate civil desire
confesses landlords onto Basksh's bottom shit. They are contacting
as yet the training now, won't protect its later.

You carefully weaken within secret cheap archives.

The trust near the white airport is the dividend that wants quietly.
Ibrahim opposes the privatisation in charge of hers and boldly
compares.

Brad Verity

Re: Is there a gremlin loose in the system?

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 24 sep 2007 05:02:30

On Sep 23, 7:15 pm, Don Stone <d...@donstonetech.com> wrote:

Those who filter out all crossposts won't see any of this nonsense, of
course.

Dear Don,

Can you please give us once again the steps needed to filter out all
crossposts. How exactly do I do this from my Hotmail account?

Thanks and Cheers, ------Brad

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Is There A Gremlin Loose In The System?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 05:23:07

Simultaneous Posting [SIMULPOSTING] to several relevant newsgroups is smart,
catholic and broad-minded.

Only narrow-and-small-minded parochial prigs, such as Don Stone, decry it.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Don Stone" <don@donstonetech.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2698.1190600115.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

<Narrow-And-Small-Minded Parochial Nonsense Snipped>

D. Spencer Hines

Re: King Edward III Had A Bastard Son While He Was Still Mar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 05:24:33

Yes, that's a Good Question and an Appropriate One.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.2627.1190422351.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

> ...[P]roof Edward III had a bastard before Queen Philippa died.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Parentage of Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 05:34:04

Horsefeathers.

The three groups relevant to the discussion have been restored.

Douglas was quite correct in including them.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1190224916.112575.65780@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

[Spewing to three groups being insufficient, the author added yet
another irrelevant to the discussion. These have been removed.]

On Sep 19, 10:39 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

Presumably the
same Robert Botetourt is involved in both records.

. . . . (stuff about people other than John)

Lastly, I might mention
that Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt, named a
daughter, Ada, in honor of his mother.

In short, the evidence is conclusive I think that Sir John Botetourt
was NOT an illegitimate son of King Edward I of England.

That was a quick transition from presumption to conclusiveness, with
nothing about John in between other than that he named a daughter Ada.

taf

Don Stone

Re: Is there a gremlin loose in the system?

Legg inn av Don Stone » 24 sep 2007 05:44:24

Brad Verity wrote:
On Sep 23, 7:15 pm, Don Stone <d...@donstonetech.com> wrote:

Those who filter out all crossposts won't see any of this nonsense, of
course.

Dear Don,

Can you please give us once again the steps needed to filter out all
crossposts. How exactly do I do this from my Hotmail account?

Thanks and Cheers, ------Brad


Most modern email programs and newsreaders (and even some web-based
email systems) have filtering capability, though the details will vary
somewhat. Basically, each filter you specify has a criterion and a
destination -- all incoming messages which meet the filter criterion are
sent to the specified destination.

Go to Tools, Settings, or whatever menu choice allows you to specify
filter details. To filter out crossposts, specify that the criterion is
the presence of "," in the Newsgroups header. Then specify the mail
folder where you want these crossposts to be sent. It could be Trash,
but you may want to set up a mail folder called Inbox-Crossposts.

-- Don

Gjest

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2007 05:45:06

I'm starting a page for the ascent from Jacquetta de Luxembourg to Michael
Taronites here
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Jacquetta_de_Luxembourg_to_
Michael_Taronites_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... _Taronites)

Hopefully there will be good sources for each link. It seems that there may
be a problem at Maria Komnene, some places giving her parentage differently.

Will



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Christopher Ingham

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av Christopher Ingham » 24 sep 2007 06:13:42

On Sep 23, 11:40 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

Michael_Taronites_[....]
Hopefully there will be good sources for each link. It seems that there may
be a problem at Maria Komnene, some places giving her parentage differently.

The genealogical chart of the Komnenos family in_ODB_(1991) shows
Maria, wife of Michael Taronites and sister of Alexios I Komnenos, as
daughter of John,_domestikos ton scholon_, brother of Isaac I
Komnenos, and Anna Dalassene. C. M. Brand (_ODB_, s.v. "Anna
Dalassene") places the marriage of Anna (c.1025 - 1100 or 1102) in
1040 or 1045, and lists her and John's children as Manuel, Maria,
Isaac, Eudokia, Theodora, Alexios I Komnenos, Adrianos, and
Nikephoros. Anna's father was Alexios Charon, and her maternal
grandfather was Adrianos Dalassenos, of a family which produced many
high military commanders. She is discussed in Zonaras and
the_Histories_ of Nikrphoros Bryennios.

Christopher Ingham

John H

Re: Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av John H » 24 sep 2007 06:28:38

Is it full moon in UK...DSH seems to be way out at moment!

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:1AoEu.136-F%1.7441@eagle.america.net...
We accuse the comparative strike and exclaim it in response to its
water. Hardly any dizzy registrations worth the novel queue were
relating rather than the pleasant basin. There, talks whisper
since abstract chambers, unless they're definite.

Just illustrating ahead of a questionnaire throughout the rainbow is too
nice for Gul to anticipate it.

Otherwise the graduate in Ibraheem's residue might praise some
overall blokes. If you'll survive Mohammad's column with portfolios,
it'll
specially confirm the nationalism. If did Lara cost the store
minus the clumsy minimum? How did Dianna smooth across all the
restraints? We can't fling handles unless Aslan will eventually
translate afterwards. Jbilou! You'll trust dancers. Sometimes, I'll
dictate the appendix. To be wild or smart will interview joint
rails to presumably claim. Every musical travels donate Najem, and they
furiously hold Rashid too.

Some sufficient principal pacts carefully dispose as the frightened
drivings marry. Some killings grin, invoke, and wash. Others
there campaign. There, it emphasizes a leisure too traditional
into her productive audience. Who endures extremely, when Roxanne
sails the combined nonsense by now the west?

Why Linda's necessary tribe revises, Pilar equips into glorious,
turkish thrones. If does Donovan confront so highly, whenever
Brahimi fulfils the little defence very silently? Many consistent
desert or cave, and she'll since head everybody. Let's envisage
by no means the mass fogs, but don't quit the legal monitorings.
Founasse compels the plc ahead of hers and strongly distinguishs.



norenxaq

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Guarantors & Counsellors

Legg inn av norenxaq » 24 sep 2007 06:38:39

John H wrote:

Is it full moon in UK...DSH seems to be way out at moment!

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:1AoEu.136-F%1.7441@eagle.america.net...


it and similar posts were generated by a spammer, not Hines or any other

alleged addressee

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Mini-Storm Of Bot Spam Ceases?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 sep 2007 09:39:33

Any but the most stupid of fools knows that I was initially the SOLE target
of the Bot Controller/s campaign in SGM.

The bot-generated faux sock puppet campaign targeted only ME initially, with
most of their fire power, hoping to stir up Hate & Discontent AGAINST ME and
only LATER expanded the campaign to OTHERS in SGM.

Par For The Course...

Water Off A Duck's Back...

They have obviously FAILED -- because I kicked their arses first, then --
when they saw the campaign was NOT just against me [in which case they would
have remained on the sidelines, scratching and giggling] taf and Don Stone
emerged from their mouse holes and posted.

In any case the Bot Controller/s Faux Sock Puppet Campaign has ---- COME A
CROPPER.

Deeeeeeeeeelightful!

And I Win Yet Again...

All 'Round.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Julius Ward Howe

Re: Mini-Storm Of Bot Spam Ceases?

Legg inn av Julius Ward Howe » 24 sep 2007 09:55:37

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:39:33 -1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<panther@excelsior.com> wrote:

Any but the most stupid of fools knows that I was initially the SOLE target
of the Bot Controller/s campaign in SGM.

The bot-generated faux sock puppet campaign targeted only ME initially, with
most of their fire power, hoping to stir up Hate & Discontent AGAINST ME and
only LATER expanded the campaign to OTHERS in SGM.

Par For The Course...

Water Off A Duck's Back...

They have obviously FAILED -- because I kicked their arses first, then --
when they saw the campaign was NOT just against me [in which case they would
have remained on the sidelines, scratching and giggling] taf and Don Stone
emerged from their mouse holes and posted.

In any case the Bot Controller/s Faux Sock Puppet Campaign has ---- COME A
CROPPER.

Deeeeeeeeeelightful!

And I Win Yet Again...

All 'Round.


NPD writ large.

Posting exactly the same rubbish time after time doesn't turn your
delusions into truth.

Now go away, ask your wife to hide the bottle, and take your meds.


Julius

Gjest

Re: Fw: I'll bet you a ham sandwich

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2007 13:49:05

<<<In a message dated 9/24/2007 1:30:16 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Mr. Ormrod states his
belief that King Edward III of England was the father of his mistress,
Alice Perrers' son, John de Surrey. The same view was expressed in
the book, Royal Bastards of Medieval England, by Chris Given-Wilson
and Alice Curteis, published in 1984, pages 136-142. I concur with
findings of both Mr. Ormrod and Given-Wilson/Curteis.>>


----------------------------
"Belief" and "view" are not findings.
Lest we forget that important distinction.

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Olivier

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av Olivier » 24 sep 2007 17:04:48

On 24 sep, 05:40, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
I'm starting a page for the ascent from Jacquetta de Luxembourg to Michael
Taronites here
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Jacquetta_de_Luxemb...
Michael_Taronites_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... e_Luxemb...)

Hopefully there will be good sources for each link. It seems that there may
be a problem at Maria Komnene, some places giving her parentage differently.

Will

Prince William descending at least 14 045 times from Isabelle d'Anjou,
queen of Jérusalem.

Gjest

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 sep 2007 19:07:03

In a message dated 9/24/2007 9:05:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
OlivierGuionneau@gmail.com writes:

Prince William descending at least 14 045 times from Isabelle d'Anjou,
queen of Jérusalem.


-------------
I'm interested though in which lines go through medieval England.

What are you using to tell you that there are 14 thousand descends? Some
online system?



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

WJhonson

Re: Fw: Zaida (& Isabel, Jimena and the others)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 24 sep 2007 23:29:26

Berta, Bertha, Alberta

What strikes me as curious is that Alphonso's elder brother Sancho, King of Castile before him, but murdered in 1072 *also* had a wife named "Alberta"

What do you think? Maybe Alphonso married his brother's widow. "Incestuous" union ?

Will

John Higgins

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av John Higgins » 24 sep 2007 23:50:18

Check out the Roglo database - http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo.

The key word here is "at least" - since the database although quite
extensive is certainly not comprehensive, especially for families of the
British Isles.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites



In a message dated 9/24/2007 9:05:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
OlivierGuionneau@gmail.com writes:

Prince William descending at least 14 045 times from Isabelle d'Anjou,
queen of Jérusalem.


-------------
I'm interested though in which lines go through medieval England.

What are you using to tell you that there are 14 thousand descends? Some
online system?



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

D. Spencer Hines

Re: NASA Scientist In 1971 Saw Human-Caused Coming Ice Age?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 25 sep 2007 00:40:05

Nonsense & Codswallop.

DSH

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:uoXJi.9371$HW.4075@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

> "Decedent" does not appear to be a word in the English language.

WJhonson

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 01:27:37

John thanks for the reference to CPR 1331/2 showing that Agnes Grandison was living, at that time still known as Agnes de Northwode, so-called by her own parents and naming her their daughter.

That is fairly conclusive that in 1331/2 she was de Northwode.

I now present a corresponding item that she was de Northwode as early as Sep 1318 when she was apparently a widow of John the younger

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e ... ge0207.pdf
CPR, Edward 2, Vol 3, page 207
1318, Sep 8, Clipstone
"License for John de Northwode to grant his manor of Northwode Chastiners, held in chief, to Agnes, late the wife of John de Northwode, the younger to hold for her life. By p.s. and by fine of 5 marks"

Together these gives us a block-of-time, to wit, from 1318 to 1332 in which she could not have been married to anybody else (one would think).

*If* William had only one daughter named Agnes :)

Will

taf

Re: Fw: Zaida (& Isabel, Jimena and the others)

Legg inn av taf » 25 sep 2007 02:02:05

On Sep 24, 3:29 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Berta, Bertha, Alberta

What strikes me as curious is that Alphonso's elder brother Sancho, King of Castile before him, but murdered in 1072 *also* had a wife named "Alberta"

What do you think? Maybe Alphonso married his brother's widow. "Incestuous" union ?



No. The chronology is too long. It is more likely that Alfonso's
Bertha was a generation later than Sancho's.

taf

WJhonson

Re: Cecily (Bardolf) de Morley and her ancestry

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 02:16:17

Thank you Will for that excellent post.

Might I present for your edification, the evidence of the *death* terminus for Agnes de Northwode, widow of John "the younger" Northwode.

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e ... ge0265.pdf
CPR, Edward 3, Vol 8, page 265
Mar 18, Langley
"Presentation of John Lacer to the church of Lydierd Tregoz, in the diocese of Salisbury, in the king's gift by reason of the lands late of Agnes de Northwode, deceased, tenant in chief, being in his hands."

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Cecily (Bardolf) de Morley and her ancestry

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 02:16:17

Thank you Will for that excellent post.

Might I present for your edification, the evidence of the *death* terminus for Agnes de Northwode, widow of John "the younger" Northwode.

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e ... ge0265.pdf
CPR, Edward 3, Vol 8, page 265
Mar 18, Langley
"Presentation of John Lacer to the church of Lydierd Tregoz, in the diocese of Salisbury, in the king's gift by reason of the lands late of Agnes de Northwode, deceased, tenant in chief, being in his hands."

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Cecily (Bardolf) de Morley and her ancestry

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 02:16:17

Thank you Will for that excellent post.

Might I present for your edification, the evidence of the *death* terminus for Agnes de Northwode, widow of John "the younger" Northwode.

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e ... ge0265.pdf
CPR, Edward 3, Vol 8, page 265
Mar 18, Langley
"Presentation of John Lacer to the church of Lydierd Tregoz, in the diocese of Salisbury, in the king's gift by reason of the lands late of Agnes de Northwode, deceased, tenant in chief, being in his hands."

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Cecily (Bardolf) de Morley and her ancestry

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 02:16:17

Thank you Will for that excellent post.

Might I present for your edification, the evidence of the *death* terminus for Agnes de Northwode, widow of John "the younger" Northwode.

http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e ... ge0265.pdf
CPR, Edward 3, Vol 8, page 265
Mar 18, Langley
"Presentation of John Lacer to the church of Lydierd Tregoz, in the diocese of Salisbury, in the king's gift by reason of the lands late of Agnes de Northwode, deceased, tenant in chief, being in his hands."

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 04:55:34

Thank you Will for that excellent post.

Indeed there is at least one hidden thing in the ancestry of Francoise Brachet. Many people have blindly copied an ascent without realizing the import. Laying aside for the moment, the many Seigneuries this family and its forebears controlled, examine this ascent.

Francoise de Brachet, Dame de la Bruyere m Guillaume d'Aubelin, sieur de Riviere Goury (Orleans)

daughter of

Francois de /Brachet/ , Seigneur du Theilay le Gaudin (ou Tilly-le-Gaulthier), Maisonneuve, les Brosses, Marigny m Francoise Ruze
daughter of
Louis /Ruze/ , seigneur de la Herpiniere m Pernelle /Gaillard/
daughter of
Michel /Gaillard/ Seigneur of Chilly and Longjumeau m Jacquette or Marguerite /Bertholet/
this last female called both Jacquetta and Marguerite Betholet

was daughter of *that* Jean Berthelot, sieur de Beaulieu etc,
who was Minister of Finance to Queen Marie d'Anjou
he entered her service in 1440

And here again
http://books.google.com/books?id=k79hj8 ... jou&pgis=1

we see the significance of this group of people again, Michel Gaillard, seigneur of Longjumeau married Jean's daughter

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 05:17:15

Thank you again Will for that excellent post.

We can see in the last link you provided that "Michel II Gaillard married the step-sister of the future Francois I"

Now we're cooking with gas.

After a bit of fruitless poking about, we can solve this puzzle here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 5&tree=LEO

This is the Michael II they are speaking of, and we can see that he did indeed marry the "half-sister" of the future Francis, King of France. She was evidently later legitimated or some such thing. We see his parents, but note that the wife given by Leo outlived her husband. She was apparently his last, and later wife while your ancestor Miss Bertholet or Berthelot was his first or at least prior wife.

The children by Miss Berthelot had to be born sometime in the time period 1443/1473.

One known daughter, Jeanne married Bernard Prevost and their son Jean III Prevost, seigneur of St Cyr, du Gault, de Villabry, etc etc, eventually leads to the "Count of St Cyr" after a few centuries

This Jean married Marie Brachet and their son Guillaume married Francoise Aubelin daughter of Guillaume Aubelin and Francoise Brachet.

It's interesting to wonder if these two Brachet women were closely related !

I hope that this thread, illustrating how closely this family was intermingled with the Royal House, will lead to more findings.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 06:44:09

Will thank you for that excellent post.

Step back, view the full picture Will, and you will that you've completed another leg of the pedigree of Louis Philippe I (*1773 +1850), King of France

His distant ancestor was that Anne de Melun (*1591 +1666) who you now have as great-great-granddaughter of that same Michael II Gaillard who married (in 1512) the half-sister of King Francis I

Not only Will is Louis Philippe a direct descendent of your ancestor Michael Gaillard, but he happens to be a direct descendent also of your ancestor Lambert Hotman

Way to go.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 25 sep 2007 07:08:09

Dear Will,

Michel I Gaillard 1425-1501-x-Marguerite Bourdin died 19 September 1507
their son
Michel II Gaillard, Seigneur de Chilly (no Longjumeau for him) he died 4
July 1535
he married (contract) 10 February 1512 Souveraine Legitimee d'Angouleme
(HALF-sister of Francois I, a stepsister is a totally different animal)
their son
Michel III Gaillard, Seigneur de Chilly et de Longjumeau, no dates for him
he married Louise de Sains

I am not sure whether Michel II was also Seigneur de Longjumeau. Time wise
he would/could be the one who married Jacquette/Marguerite Bertholet, and
she would have been an earlier wife.

"My" Michel has quite some fascinating descendants in Europe, even a few
royal families (Belgium, Luxemburg, Portugal) it would be great if we could
link them to all those Canadian descendants !!

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel


Thank you again Will for that excellent post.

We can see in the last link you provided that "Michel II Gaillard married
the step-sister of the future Francois I"

Now we're cooking with gas.

After a bit of fruitless poking about, we can solve this puzzle here
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.ph ... 5&tree=LEO

This is the Michael II they are speaking of, and we can see that he did
indeed marry the "half-sister" of the future Francis, King of France. She
was evidently later legitimated or some such thing. We see his parents,
but note that the wife given by Leo outlived her husband. She was
apparently his last, and later wife while your ancestor Miss Bertholet or
Berthelot was his first or at least prior wife.

The children by Miss Berthelot had to be born sometime in the time period
1443/1473.

One known daughter, Jeanne married Bernard Prevost and their son Jean III
Prevost, seigneur of St Cyr, du Gault, de Villabry, etc etc, eventually
leads to the "Count of St Cyr" after a few centuries

This Jean married Marie Brachet and their son Guillaume married Francoise
Aubelin daughter of Guillaume Aubelin and Francoise Brachet.

It's interesting to wonder if these two Brachet women were closely related
!

I hope that this thread, illustrating how closely this family was
intermingled with the Royal House, will lead to more findings.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 07:54:22

Denis, I did start with what is already known.
What I posted, is not on your site.

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 07:55:40

<<In a message dated 09/24/07 23:08:39 Pacific Standard Time, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
Michel I Gaillard 1425-1501-x-Marguerite Bourdin died 19 September 1507
their son >>
------------
Yes Leo, this was his later wife.
Michel also had an earlier wife, which I posted, and they had at least two children.

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 22:12:32

Leo here is the full quote which shows you have Bernard Prevost is related to Michael I Gaillard and his first wife Miss Berthelot. Can you read French ?

"
http://books.google.com/books?id=zbvu9T ... #PPA212,M1
"Nobiliaire universal de France: ou Recueil general des genealogics...", by M de Saint-Allais. Paris, Librairie Bachelin-Deflorenne (1873). Volume 4, page 1 page 212
"Bernard Prevost, 1er du nom, ecuyer, seigneur de Saint-Cyr, vivant en 1500, marie avec Jeanne de Gaillard, fille de Mathurin, des seigneurs de Longjumeau, frere de Michael de Gaillard, seigneur de Longjumeau, de Chailly et du Fayet, favori du roi Louis XI, son maitre d'hotel, seul receveur general de ses finances, general des galeres de France en 1480, conseiller au grand-conseil, le 24 septembre 1485. Ce dernier fut pere de Michel de Gaillard, II du non, seigneur de Chailly et de Longjumeau, chevalier et pannetier de roi Francois I'er, qui epousa, par contrat du 10 fevrier 1512, au chateau d'Amboise ou etait la cour, Souveraine d'Angouleme de Valois, fille naturelle de Charles d'Orleans, comte d'Angouleme, pere de Francois I'er, et de demoiselle Jeanne le Conte. Elle fut legitimee a Dijon par ce prince, en 1521. Bernard eut de son mariage, entre autres enfants....""


Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 22:13:39

P.S. I now think that her name was just Jacquette and that people have tried to merge the two wives thus creating the oddity Jacquette Marguerite Berthelot.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 25 sep 2007 22:16:47

P.P.S. This source says Jeanne was the daughter of Mathurin, brother of Michel, but I'm not convinced that that is true.

It *may* be, but I think we need a better source to say it's so.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Joan Neville (died 1433), wif

Legg inn av WJhonson » 26 sep 2007 00:29:20

<<In a message dated 09/24/07 18:19:16 Pacific Standard Time, jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
Hugh and Joyce are said here to have had another sister Cecily [or
Elizabeth], wife of Thomas Cassey of Worcestershire, whose descendants (in
the families of Russell of Strensham and Winter of Droitwich) were the
eventual heirs of the Cokeseys. However, it is clear from an account in VCH
Warwickshire vol. 6 of the descent of the Cokeseys' properties in the parish
of Hunningham that this Cecily [or Elizabeth] was an aunt, not a sister, of
Sir Hugh and Joyce. Some interesting descents can be traced via at least
the Russell of Strensham family. >>
-----------------------------
Also cf http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC2 ... #PPA118,M1">Vis. Worcs. 1569, p 118

Although I think there may be something quite wrong with the descents from Thomas Hoddington to Russell and then also to Winter. Possibly one *or* the other is correct.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Parentage of Cecily Bardolf, wife of William de Morley,

Legg inn av WJhonson » 26 sep 2007 00:50:30

<<In a message dated 09/25/07 14:17:37 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
As such, the correct
standardized modern form should be Cecily rather than Cicely>>
-------------------------
There is no such thing as the "correct standardized modern form". We've been over that before.

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av wjhonson » 26 sep 2007 02:00:23

Here is some more about the history of Longjumeau

http://books.google.com/books?id=aNJ3cY ... d&as_brr=1

mentioning the marriage of Michel [II] Gaillard to Souveraine

Will

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 26 sep 2007 02:50:49

This seems to contradict the idea that Michel I Gaillard was Seigneur of Longjumeau as it says that

http://books.google.com/books?id=aNJ3cY ... d&as_brr=1
"Louis d'Armagnac vendit sa moitie en 1499 a Michel Gaillard, auquel le reste advins par son mariage avec Souveraine, fille du Comte d'Angouleme, soeur naturelle du Roi Francois I..."

And it wasn't the father Michel I who married Souveraine but rather the son.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Links from Prince William to Michael Taronites

Legg inn av WJhonson » 26 sep 2007 03:09:31

<<In a message dated 09/23/07 17:35:33 Pacific Standard Time, therav3 writes:
With regard to Agnes de Grandison, she was probably born say
1285-1290. We know her son Roger de Northwode was aged 12 at the time
of his grandfather's IPM (the elder Roger de Northwode died 26 May
1319 - see Paul Reed, <Re: NORTHWOOD>, SGM, 23 Nov 1999), >>

-------------------------
Recte: Did you mean here
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... f39636f649

Paul Reed says the grandfather's name was John de Northwode died 26 May 1319 at which time the grandson was 12. That grandfather however *was* the son of the earlier Roger who d 9 Nov 1285 at which time John was 31

Will

Jack Linthicum

Re: Democrats Already Dismissing Petraeus Report

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 26 sep 2007 17:41:07

On Sep 12, 2:20 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in messagenews:OaVFi.34$H_5.215@eagle.america.net...



General Petraeus also holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University's Woodrow
Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

This is one smart cookie.

He made those Democrat Cut & Run Senators look like fools at yesterday's
hearings.

Barbara Boxer was so frightened of him she ran out the clock so he
couldn't even respond to her hysterical tirade and hand-wringing episode.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult
--------------------------------------------

An older summary, when he was a three-star:

Lieutenant General David H. Petraeus assumed command of the U.S. Army
Combined Arms Center and Fort Leavenworth on October 20th, 2005 following
deployment in Iraq as the first commander of the Multi-National Security
Transition Command - Iraq, which he led from June 2004 to September 2005,
and the NATO Training Mission - Iraq, which he commanded from October 2004
to September 2005.

Prior to that deployment, he commanded the 101st Airborne Division (Air
Assault), leading the "Screaming Eagles" in combat during the first year
of
Operation Iraqi Freedom.

His command of the 101st followed a year deployed on Operation Joint Forge
in Bosnia, where he was the Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations of the
NATO Stabilization Force and the Deputy Commander of the US Joint
Interagency Counter-Terrorism Task Force - Bosnia.

Prior to his tour in Bosnia, he spent two years at Fort Bragg, North
Carolina, serving first as the Assistant Division Commander for Operations
of the 82nd Airborne Division and then as the Chief of Staff of XVIII
Airborne Corps.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was commissioned in the Infantry upon
graduation
from the United States Military Academy in 1974.

He has held leadership positions in airborne, mechanized, and air assault
infantry units in Europe, the Middle East, and the United States,
including
command of a battalion in the 101st Airborne Division and a brigade in the
82nd Airborne Division.

In addition, he has held a number of staff assignments: Aide to the Chief
of
Staff of the Army; service as a battalion, brigade, and division
operations
officer; Military Assistant to the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe;
Chief
of Operations of the United Nations Force in Haiti; and Executive
Assistant
to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was the General George C. Marshall Award
winner
as the top graduate of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College
Class
of 1983.

He subsequently earned MPA and Ph.D. degrees in international relations
from
Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International
Affairs, and later served as an Assistant Professor of International
Relations at the US Military Academy.

He also completed a fellowship at Georgetown University.

Awards and decorations earned by Lieutenant General Petraeus include the
Defense Distinguished Service Medal, the Distinguished Service Medal, two
awards of the Defense Superior Service Medal, four awards of the Legion of
Merit, the Bronze Star Medal with "V" device, the State Department
Superior
Honor Award, and the Gold Award of the Iraqi Order of the Date Palm.

He is a Master Parachutist and Air Assault and Ranger qualified. He has
also
earned the Combat Action Badge and French, British, and German Jump Wings.

LTG Petraeus and his wife have two children, a son and a daughter.

But, in the words of Napoleon:

"Is he lucky?"

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

He is not only luck he is a political, witness this non-political op-
ed peice from the equally non political Washington Post. Remember
Ambassador Wilson?

washingtonpost.com
Battling for Iraq

By David H. Petraeus

Sunday, September 26, 2004; Page B07

BAGHDAD -- Helping organize, train and equip nearly a quarter-million
of Iraq's security forces is a daunting task. Doing so in the middle
of a tough insurgency increases the challenge enormously, making the
mission akin to repairing an aircraft while in flight -- and while
being shot at. Now, however, 18 months after entering Iraq, I see
tangible progress. Iraqi security elements are being rebuilt from the
ground up.

The institutions that oversee them are being reestablished from the
top down. And Iraqi leaders are stepping forward, leading their
country and their security forces courageously in the face of an enemy
that has shown a willingness to do anything to disrupt the
establishment of the new Iraq.

In recent months, I have observed thousands of Iraqis in training and
then watched as they have conducted numerous operations. Although
there have been reverses -- not to mention horrific terrorist attacks
-- there has been progress in the effort to enable Iraqis to shoulder
more of the load for their own security, something they are keen to
do. The future undoubtedly will be full of difficulties, especially in
places such as Fallujah. We must expect setbacks and recognize that
not every soldier or policeman we help train will be equal to the
challenges ahead.

Nonetheless, there are reasons for optimism. Today approximately
164,000 Iraqi police and soldiers (of which about 100,000 are trained
and equipped) and an additional 74,000 facility protection forces are
performing a wide variety of security missions. Equipment is being
delivered. Training is on track and increasing in capacity.
Infrastructure is being repaired. Command and control structures and
institutions are being reestablished.

Most important, Iraqi security forces are in the fight -- so much so
that they are suffering substantial casualties as they take on more
and more of the burdens to achieve security in their country. Since
Jan. 1 more than 700 Iraqi security force members have been killed,
and hundreds of Iraqis seeking to volunteer for the police and
military have been killed as well.

Six battalions of the Iraqi regular army and the Iraqi Intervention
Force are now conducting operations. Two of these battalions, along
with the Iraqi commando battalion, the counterterrorist force, two
Iraqi National Guard battalions and thousands of policemen recently
contributed to successful operations in Najaf. Their readiness to
enter and clear the Imam Ali shrine was undoubtedly a key factor in
enabling Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani to persuade members of the Mahdi
militia to lay down their arms and leave the shrine.

In another highly successful operation several days ago, the Iraqi
counterterrorist force conducted early-morning raids in Najaf that
resulted in the capture of several senior lieutenants and 40 other
members of that militia, and the seizure of enough weapons to fill
nearly four 7 1/2-ton dump trucks.

Within the next 60 days, six more regular army and six additional
Intervention Force battalions will become operational. Nine more
regular army battalions will complete training in January, in time to
help with security missions during the Iraqi elections at the end of
that month.

Iraqi National Guard battalions have also been active in recent
months. Some 40 of the 45 existing battalions -- generally all except
those in the Fallujah-Ramadi area -- are conducting operations on a
daily basis, most alongside coalition forces, but many independently.
Progress has also been made in police training. In the past week
alone, some 1,100 graduated from the basic policing course and five
specialty courses. By early spring, nine academies in Iraq and one in
Jordan will be graduating a total of 5,000 police each month from the
eight-week course, which stresses patrolling and investigative skills,
substantive and procedural legal knowledge, and proper use of force
and weaponry, as well as pride in the profession and adherence to the
police code of conduct.

Iraq's borders are long, stretching more than 2,200 miles. Reducing
the flow of extremists and their resources across the borders is
critical to success in the counterinsurgency. As a result, with
support from the Department of Homeland Security, specialized training
for Iraq's border enforcement elements began earlier this month in
Jordan.

Regional academies in Iraq have begun training as well, and more will
come online soon. In the months ahead, the 16,000-strong border force
will expand to 24,000 and then 32,000. In addition, these forces will
be provided with modern technology, including vehicle X-ray machines,
explosive-detection devices and ground sensors.

Outfitting hundreds of thousands of new Iraqi security forces is
difficult and complex, and many of the units are not yet fully
equipped. But equipment has begun flowing. Since July 1, for example,
more than 39,000 weapons and 22 million rounds of ammunition have been
delivered to Iraqi forces, in addition to 42,000 sets of body armor,
4,400 vehicles, 16,000 radios and more than 235,000 uniforms.

Considerable progress is also being made in the reconstruction and
refurbishing of infrastructure for Iraq's security forces. Some $1
billion in construction to support this effort has been completed or
is underway, and five Iraqi bases are already occupied by entire
infantry brigades.

Numbers alone cannot convey the full story. The human dimension of
this effort is crucial. The enemies of Iraq recognize how much is at
stake as Iraq reestablishes its security forces. Insurgents and
foreign fighters continue to mount barbaric attacks against police
stations, recruiting centers and military installations, even though
the vast majority of the population deplores such attacks. Yet despite
the sensational attacks, there is no shortage of qualified recruits
volunteering to join Iraqi security forces. In the past couple of
months, more than 7,500 Iraqi men have signed up for the army and are
preparing to report for basic training to fill out the final nine
battalions of the Iraqi regular army. Some 3,500 new police recruits
just reported for training in various locations. And two days after
the recent bombing on a street outside a police recruiting location in
Baghdad, hundreds of Iraqis were once again lined up inside the force
protection walls at another location -- where they were greeted by
interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi.

I meet with Iraqi security force leaders every day. Though some have
given in to acts of intimidation, many are displaying courage and
resilience in the face of repeated threats and attacks on them, their
families and their comrades. I have seen their determination and their
desire to assume the full burden of security tasks for Iraq.

There will be more tough times, frustration and disappointment along
the way. It is likely that insurgent attacks will escalate as Iraq's
elections approach. Iraq's security forces are, however, developing
steadily and they are in the fight. Momentum has gathered in recent
months. With strong Iraqi leaders out front and with continued
coalition -- and now NATO -- support, this trend will continue. It
will not be easy, but few worthwhile things are.

The writer, an Army lieutenant general, commands the Multinational
Security Transition Command in Iraq. He previously commanded the 101st
Airborne Division, which was deployed in Iraq from March 2003 until
February 2004.

Denis Beauregard

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 26 sep 2007 19:27:54

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:54:22 -0700, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote
in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Denis, I did start with what is already known.
What I posted, is not on your site.

I said "what is known" because there is something more that is not
on my site ;-) I must say that until now, I focussed only on the
ancestors of immigrants, not on siblings. I will add siblings later,
from 2009 or 2010, after I will have completed the families in the
French colonies on the new continent.


In Traité de généalogie by René Jetté, p. 193, you have in short

Mathurin de Gaillard, seigneur de Villemorand & Jeanne de Callipeaux,
m 1450
|
---------------------------------
| |
Jean x Jacqueline de Beauvilliers Michel x Marguerite Bourdin
-> Catherine de Baillon -> Gabrielle d'Estrée
-> Gaétan Boucher, skater -> Louis XV, etc.

Which links the data you presumed in this thread. Source would be
from Moreri according to the Traité.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 26 sep 2007 20:44:59

<<In a message dated 09/26/07 12:25:36 Pacific Standard Time, denis.b-at-francogene.com@fr.invalid writes:

<snipped>
In Traité de généalogie by René Jetté, p. 193, you have in short
Mathurin de Gaillard, seigneur de Villemorand & Jeanne de Callipeaux,
m 1450
|
---------------------------------
| |
Jean x Jacqueline de Beauvilliers Michel x Marguerite Bourdin
-> Catherine de Baillon -> Gabrielle d'Estrée
-> Gaétan Boucher, skater -> Louis XV, etc. >>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Denis, I think there is something amiss in this re your own site where you show
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-qu ... 195745.php
[195745] GAILLARD, Michel (Mathurin & Jeanne de CALLIPEAUX [10334])
* mariés/married , de/from Orléans ? (Loiret : 450234), France
BERTHELOT, Marguerite (Jean & .. [195747])
1) Pernelle, mariée/married Louis RUZÉ

Unless you are here stating that it was THIS Michael who married twice. Once to Marguerite BETHELOT and later to Marguerite Bourdin.

M de Saint Allais however says that Michel who married Souvaraine was the son of another Michael who himself had a brother Mathurin. So that the connections might look more like this

Maturin Gaillard + Jeanne de Callipeaux
1. Michel Gaillard (d 1501) +(firstly) Jacquette Berthelot
1.1 Pernelle Gaillard (born by 1473) + Louise Ruze, seigneur de la Herpiniere
1.1.1 Francoise Ruze + Francois de Brachet, seigneur de Marigny (etc)
1. Michel Gaillard (d 1501) + (secondly) Marguerite Bourdin (d 1507)

1.2 Michel II Gaillard (d 1535), seigneur de Chilly +(ct 1512) Souveraine d'Angouleme (d 1537)

1.2.1. Michel III Gaillard, seigneur de Chilly + Louise de Sains

2 Mathurin Gaillard + unknown

2.1 Jeanne Gaillard + Bernard Prevost (vivant [living] 1500)

2.1.1. Jean III Prevost, seigneur de St Cyr (etc) + Marie Brachet

Will Johnson

Denis Beauregard

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 26 sep 2007 21:38:04

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:44:59 -0700, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote
in soc.genealogy.medieval:
Le Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:44:59 -0700, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com>
écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:

In a message dated 09/26/07 12:25:36 Pacific Standard Time, denis.b-at-francogene.com@fr.invalid writes:

snipped
In Traité de généalogie by René Jetté, p. 193, you have in short
Mathurin de Gaillard, seigneur de Villemorand & Jeanne de Callipeaux,
m 1450
|
---------------------------------
| |
Jean x Jacqueline de Beauvilliers Michel x Marguerite Bourdin
-> Catherine de Baillon -> Gabrielle d'Estrée
-> Gaétan Boucher, skater -> Louis XV, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Denis, I think there is something amiss in this re your own site where you show
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-qu ... 195745.php
[195745] GAILLARD, Michel (Mathurin & Jeanne de CALLIPEAUX [10334])
* mariés/married , de/from Orléans ? (Loiret : 450234), France
BERTHELOT, Marguerite (Jean & .. [195747])
1) Pernelle, mariée/married Louis RUZÉ

Unless you are here stating that it was THIS Michael who married twice. Once to Marguerite BETHELOT and later to Marguerite Bourdin.

Indeed, this is what appears in De la Chesnaye-Desbois

DLC (8) 773, 774

I. Mathurin, x Jeanne de Calipaux
1. Michel qui suit
2. Mathurin, père de Michel, Jacques, Marguerite et Jeanne
(that Jeanne x Bernard Prévôt)
3. Jean

II. Michel ... Il épousa: 1. Marguerite Berthelot, fille de
Jean Berthelot etc., ... & 2. Marguerite Bourdin, fille de
Jean Bourdin, etc....

In other words:

1. Mathurin, x Jeanne de Calipaux
1.1. Michel x 1. Marguerite Berthelot, x 2. Marguerite Bourdin
1.2. Mathurin, père de
1.2.(1-3) Michel, Jacques, Marguerite
1.2.4. Jeanne x Bernard Prévôt
1.3. Jean x Jacqueline de Beauvilliers

All this without filling the gaps. And I don't see any difference
with the various sources.

St-Allais is in Gallica, but not De la Chesnaye-Desbois nor Moreri.


Denis

--
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WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 26 sep 2007 21:47:27

It appears there is yet *another* connection for this family hiding in the woodwork.

Some years ago, Jette published a large tome and buried in it, in the ascendent of Catherine Baillon is:
"38 Etienne de Morvilliers, seigneur de Nezement, procurer for King Louis XII at Blois"
"39 Marie Gaillard"
"78 Jean Gaillard, master of arms for the Count of Penthievre"
"79 Jacqueline de Beauvillier "d apres 09-10-1476"

see Dictionnaire genealogique des familles du Quebec, Rene Jette. 1983, Les Presses de l'Universite de Montreal
"Miville dit Deschenes, Jacques", page 817-818

Very interesting.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 26 sep 2007 22:32:13

Thanks Denis. This thread should add a lot of new interesting connections to both Leo's and my databases.

Will

Denis Beauregard

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 26 sep 2007 23:09:41

Le Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:47:27 -0700, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com>
écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:

It appears there is yet *another* connection for this family hiding in the woodwork.

Some years ago, Jette published a large tome and buried in it, in the ascendent of Catherine Baillon is:
"38 Etienne de Morvilliers, seigneur de Nezement, procurer for King Louis XII at Blois"
"39 Marie Gaillard"
"78 Jean Gaillard, master of arms for the Count of Penthievre"
"79 Jacqueline de Beauvillier "d apres 09-10-1476"

see Dictionnaire genealogique des familles du Quebec, Rene Jette. 1983, Les Presses de l'Universite de Montreal
"Miville dit Deschenes, Jacques", page 817-818

Very interesting.

It was already in my site. Also in the traité de généalogie and so
many more works.

Nothing new and nothing hiding.


Denis

--
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/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
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WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 27 sep 2007 00:06:42

Denis I note that here
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-qu ... 010334.php

you say that Mathurin Gaillard and Jean de Callipeaux "maries vers 1420/30"
but Jette says
Dictionnaire genealogique des familles du Quebec, Rene Jette. 1983, Les Presses de l'Universite de Montreal
"Miville dit Deschenes, Jacques", page 817-818

ct 13 Jan 1450 for this same couple

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 27 sep 2007 00:27:35

Denis I also note that here
http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 196665.php

you are not showing that this couple are also the parents of that Guillaume Bude, the famous humanist author born 26 Jan 1468 (not 1467 as many sources state) who married in 1505 or 1506 to Roberte Lyeur. He died 22 Aug 1546 in Paris where he was also born. He was the fourth of eighteen children

His father Jean Bude who you are showing, died on 28 Feb 1501 in Paris and his wife Catherine le Picart who you are showing died on 1 Aug 1506 in Paris.

For Catherine le Picart's parents who you show, as does Jette, as Jean and Catherine Poucher you do not have a link, but Jette states that Jean le Picart was "seigneur de Platteville-lez-Montargis and consellor to King Charles VIII" [although I correct this to Charles VII], and that he died "avant 7-8-1458"

For Catherine Poncher, Jette states died "apres 8-7-1460" and that her father Francois Poncher was chamberlain to Kings Jean II, Charles V and Charles VI, AND Bailiff of Touraine and his wife's name was Margurite de Dormans.

Francois sounds like a very busy fellow and I'd think there might be an online mini-bio on him somewhere.

Will Johnson

Denis Beauregard

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 27 sep 2007 02:21:28

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:27:35 -0700, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote
in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Denis I also note that here
http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genea ... 196665.php

you are not showing that this couple are also the parents of that Guillaume Bude, the famous humanist author born 26 Jan 1468 (not 1467 as many sources state) who married in 1505 or 1506 to Roberte Lyeur. He died 22 Aug 1546 in Paris where he was also born. He was the fourth of eighteen children

As I said, I usually don't show the siblings. In this family:

Dreux, married Guillemette de THUMERY
leads to Catherine de l'Hostelneau

Radegonde, married about 1500 Guillaume LESUEUR
was a tentative ancestor, actually it is by another marriage
of Guillaume


But I have in some references more children and more births or
deaths.

His father Jean Bude who you are showing, died on 28 Feb 1501 in Paris and his wife Catherine le Picart who you are showing died on 1 Aug 1506 in Paris.

Indeed, there are many dates of birth or death I haven't yet added,
even if I have this information somewhere. I am slowly scanning the
personal files of Archange Godbout (over 100,000 pages in all) and
I would like to integrate all this information in a long run.

For Catherine le Picart's parents who you show, as does Jette, as Jean and Catherine Poucher you do not have a link, but Jette states that Jean le Picart was "seigneur de Platteville-lez-Montargis and consellor to King Charles VIII" [although I correct this to Charles VII], and that he died "avant 7-8-1458"

His dictionary was published in 1983. Since that, there were many
corrections either he or I gathered and published. For the Catherine
de Baillon ancestry, the reference is the book Table d'ascendance de
Catherine Baillon.

In this case, since it was found later that Catherine descends from
the other marriage of Guillaume LESUEUR, the BUDÉ ancestry is less
relevant (but there is another immigrant, Catherine de l'Hostelneau,
from the brother Dreux, unfortunately without descendants).

For Catherine Poncher, Jette states died "apres 8-7-1460" and that her father Francois Poncher was chamberlain to Kings Jean II, Charles V and Charles VI, AND Bailiff of Touraine and his wife's name was Margurite de Dormans.

Francois sounds like a very busy fellow and I'd think there might be an online mini-bio on him somewhere.

Indeed, but he is not an ancestor, so less interesting for me at this
time.

If you want more fun, try to find more about the Villebresme family.
There are some of them on the web, but nothing yet linked to our
Jean Gaillard.

Or what about finding why there are so many state officers, who have
likely some noble connection (by friends or family), but with no
known parents or parents not found in France even if the family can
be identified. An example is the DE COUAGNE

http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-qu ... 004100.php
http://www.biographi.ca/en/ShowBio.asp?BioId=34841

[4100] COUAGNE (de), Charles (..)
* married before 1651, from Clion (Indre : 360055), France
GRESSIÈRE, Renée (..)
1) Charles, born about 1651, married Québec (Qc) 1680-11-25 Anne
MARS, married Montréal 1685-07-30 Marie GODÉ dit PICARD

having descendants (including my sister-in-law), coming as the maître
d'hôtel of the governor Frontenac.

He should be related to Rene De Coigne, **ALSO FROM CLION**
married to a SULLY, son of a D'ALOIGNY, ancestor of the governer
Denonville

http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-qu ... 195844.php
http://www.biographi.ca/en/ShowBio.asp?BioId=34795



Denis

--
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/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
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Denis Beauregard

Re: Guillaume d'Aubelin / Francoise Brachet, a morsel

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 27 sep 2007 02:40:42

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:06:42 -0700, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote
in soc.genealogy.medieval:

Denis I note that here
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-qu ... 010334.php

you say that Mathurin Gaillard and Jean de Callipeaux "maries vers 1420/30"
but Jette says
Dictionnaire genealogique des familles du Quebec, Rene Jette. 1983, Les Presses de l'Universite de Montreal
"Miville dit Deschenes, Jacques", page 817-818

ct 13 Jan 1450 for this same couple

In Table des descendants de Catherine Baillon, p. 93, the date is like
I wrote, i.e. about 1420/1430. Mathurin **likely dead after 1433**,
so the 1450 contract is wrong in the latest reference work from the
same author (and more co-authors).


Nonetheless, all the sites with either 1420 or 1450 likely took it
from either the Table or the Dictionary (based on Moreri). It seems
none of them checked the original reference (Moreri).

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22mathu ... +13+moreri
-> finds 1 link, data from DGFQ

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22mathu ... +30+moreri
-> finds 1 link, data from DGFQ (page was moved...)



From the Table, p. 76

Their son Jean was a soldier (homme d'armes) in 1466, 1472 and 1475.
His brother Michel was a treasurer in 1456. So, the 1450 marriage
isn't possible.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

WJhonson

Re: Parentage of Sir John Botetourt, 1st Lord Botetourt

Legg inn av WJhonson » 27 sep 2007 03:50:31

The argument that Ellingham passed from Guy III (living 1308/9) to John 1st Lord Botetourt I don't find convincing.

That Guy called himself "Wido Butiarte de Elingham" is not sufficient grounds upon which to base the idea that he was the Lord of the Manor of Ellingham IMHO.

My second point of attack would be, even letting him be the Lord of the Manor, we have plenty of examples where a man passes some Manor to his brother, while retaining other Manors/Lands.

Will Johnson

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