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Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

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D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 18:14:57

Cite?

DSH

"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ayFGYSAoCW6GFwSj@finhall.demon.co.uk...

Professor David Hatch is of the opinion that Red hair occurs when two
groups which were formerly of the same stock but who took different
migratory paths re-integrate. Then after several generations the gene
again becomes recessive.

Douglas Richardson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 13 sep 2007 18:47:29

On Sep 12, 2:39 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
< <<In a message dated 09/12/07 13:20:49 Pacific Standard Time,
royalances...@msn.com writes:
< You're quite welcome, Will. >>
<
< ----------------------------------------------------
< Douglas when you get around to actually providing any evidence,
we'll be waiting.

I don't believe that evidence is what you are asking for, nor what you
really need.

Best always, Douglas Richartdson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Gjest

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 sep 2007 18:55:06

In a message dated 9/13/2007 7:33:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHILLIPS18@aol.com writes:

good Lord, your references are bogus and you are beyond ignorance to
even consider them worthy of any consideration
i have a reference for you: "thinking themselves to be wise, they were
really fools" (Rom.1:22)
you have sold your soul to the devil for this brief flirtation with
false fame - oh, and when you open your eyes in hell ask yourself "was
it worth it"


------------------------
They are not *my* references you silly monkey.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 19:04:28

True...

What he actually needs is a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

DSH

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1189705649.285248.70540@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

On Sep 12, 2:39 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 09/12/07 13:20:49 Pacific Standard Time,
royalances...@msn.com writes:

You're quite welcome, Will.

----------------------------------------------------
Douglas when you get around to actually providing any evidence,
we'll be waiting.

I don't believe that evidence is what you are asking for, nor what you
really need.

Best always, Douglas Richartdson, Salt Lake City, Utah

taf

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av taf » 13 sep 2007 20:03:53

On Sep 13, 10:47 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
On Sep 12, 2:39 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 09/12/07 13:20:49 Pacific Standard Time,royalances...@msn.com writes:

You're quite welcome, Will.

----------------------------------------------------
Douglas when you get around to actually providing any evidence,
we'll be waiting.

I don't believe that evidence is what you are asking for, nor what you
really need.


Evidence is precisely what he has been asking for - the specific
evidence that resulted in your concluding that Benedicta (or whatever
you choose to call her) was a Ludlow. (And no, you cannot have
concluded this based on your own book.)

As to what he really needs, that is a much more existential question,
but one which falls outside the purview of medieval genealogy.

taf

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Maud de Camville's Daughter, Isabel de Vernon, Wife of S

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 20:08:24

Hilarious!

Why can't DR cite his own book?

DSH

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1189710233.138977.14800@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

Evidence is precisely what he has been asking for - the specific
evidence that resulted in your concluding that Benedicta (or whatever
you choose to call her) was a Ludlow. (And no, you cannot have
concluded this based on your own book.)

As to what he really needs, that is a much more existential question,
but one which falls outside the purview of medieval genealogy.

taf

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 21:28:18

Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person who
has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-ed
lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7deGi.58$H_5.169@eagle.america.net...
Top People Top Post.

Bottom People Bottom Post

It's Axiomatic.

DSH

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcbfsk$pna$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:5NaGi.95613$GO6.64242@newsfe21.lga...
???

There's a D S Hines faq out there somewhere.

I would read it...

And please don't top post.


William Black

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av William Black » 13 sep 2007 21:32:07

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...
Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person who
has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.

It's not a democracy.

There's an rfc somewhere.

Please don't top post.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's Daughter, Isabel de Vernon, Wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 sep 2007 21:37:12

In a message dated 09/13/07 13:30:19 Pacific Standard Time, panther@excelsior.com writes:
1. Douglas cites his book...with page and line.
2. Then folks can follow the trail back to primary sources themselves.
3. If they find an error they post it here and draw DR's attention to it. >>

----------------------
You'd think.
Has DR ever actually engaged any of the errors spotted?
Not that he *has* to, but you'd think he'd at least respond with a "Thank you for pointing this out, I'll make a note of it...."

Instead, even after repeatedly pointing out that his rules-of-thumb don't work and aren't reliable, he trots them out and adds to them! Now we get things like Countess was a common English name in this period and "de" was dropped by everyone after 1400 (by celestial edict no doubt), and on and on.

At some point you have to stop and say, "is he making *this* up as well?"

Will

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 21:38:15

Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!

DSH

"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:vd6je3pafejuetn7ntthsdhue5agslqfcu@4ax.com...

If you went to the trouble of Googling for "David Hatch" +"red hair"
you would find the reference yourself:

http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about25843.html

Oh, dear, that was posted three and a half years ago by Bryn Fraser
himself, again without a source.

Still, if Douglas Richardson can cite himself, so can Bryn.

Tish

WJhonson

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 sep 2007 21:38:20

And it's not a dictatorship.
It's complete anarchy.

People top-post, bottom-post and inter-leave their postings.

Always been that way, not likely to change.

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 21:38:50

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcc6ol$ch9$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...
Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person
who has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.

It's not a democracy.

There's an rfc somewhere.

That's why I said: "for what it's worth."

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 21:43:22

Right On!

Yes, and even for sighted people, it's FAR better and smarter, and faster to
have the NEW STUFF at the TOP.

Please tell us how you "read" these posts.

I'm unclear as to how your technical system works and would like to do
everything I can to make it easier and smoother for you.

Aloha,

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...

Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person who
has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7deGi.58$H_5.169@eagle.america.net...

Top People Top Post.

Bottom People Bottom Post

It's Axiomatic.

DSH

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 13 sep 2007 21:44:41

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Right On!

Yes, and even for sighted people, it's FAR better and smarter, and
faster to have the NEW STUFF at the TOP.

Please tell us how you "read" these posts.

I'm unclear as to how your technical system works and would like to do
everything I can to make it easier and smoother for you.

Aloha,

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...

Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind
person who has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the
newly added comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7deGi.58$H_5.169@eagle.america.net...

Top People Top Post.

Bottom People Bottom Post

It's Axiomatic.

DSH

Only those with a short attention span.
--
John Briggs

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 21:54:46

http://www.freedomsci.com/fs_products/JAWS_HQ.asp

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:dihGi.67$H_5.317@eagle.america.net...
Right On!

Yes, and even for sighted people, it's FAR better and smarter, and faster
to have the NEW STUFF at the TOP.

Please tell us how you "read" these posts.

I'm unclear as to how your technical system works and would like to do
everything I can to make it easier and smoother for you.

Aloha,

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...

Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person
who has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, ne C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: E OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7deGi.58$H_5.169@eagle.america.net...

Top People Top Post.

Bottom People Bottom Post

It's Axiomatic.

DSH


Leticia Cluff

Re: Maud de Camville's Daughter, Isabel de Vernon, Wife of S

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 13 sep 2007 22:15:49

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:37:12 -0700, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 09/13/07 13:30:19 Pacific Standard Time, panther@excelsior.com writes:
1. Douglas cites his book...with page and line.
2. Then folks can follow the trail back to primary sources themselves.
3. If they find an error they post it here and draw DR's attention to it.

----------------------
You'd think.
Has DR ever actually engaged any of the errors spotted?
Not that he *has* to, but you'd think he'd at least respond with a "Thank you for pointing this out, I'll make a note of it...."

Instead, even after repeatedly pointing out that his rules-of-thumb don't work and aren't reliable, he trots them out and adds to them! Now we get things like Countess was a common English name in this period and "de" was dropped by everyone after 1400 (by celestial edict no doubt), and on and on.

At some point you have to stop and say, "is he making *this* up as well?"


One of the harshest indictments of Douglas Richardson read as follows:

=============================

In my carefully considered opinion, anyone who has been following
Richardson's posts to this newsgroup over the years and who has NOT
come to the conclusion that Richardson is a sly, manipulative
charlatan and an utter fraud is clearly naive, none-too-swift and a
damned fool to boot.

I've been reading him for eight years now and have seen nothing to
change my mind on that considered judgment

=============================


Those are the words of the Big Banana himself, DSH, from March 2004
(same month as Bryn's cite, curiously).


Tish

Praeterea censeo Hinem esse delendum

Leticia Cluff

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 13 sep 2007 22:15:56

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:54:46 -0400, "Dana S. Leslie"
<dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:


Interesting.

Another user of JAWS dislikes top posting:
http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/gey_chr0.htm

Tish


http://www.freedomsci.com/fs_products/JAWS_HQ.asp

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:dihGi.67$H_5.317@eagle.america.net...
Right On!

Yes, and even for sighted people, it's FAR better and smarter, and faster
to have the NEW STUFF at the TOP.

Please tell us how you "read" these posts.

I'm unclear as to how your technical system works and would like to do
everything I can to make it easier and smoother for you.

Aloha,

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...

Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person
who has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, ne C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: E OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7deGi.58$H_5.169@eagle.america.net...

Top People Top Post.

Bottom People Bottom Post

It's Axiomatic.

DSH



Bryn

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Bryn » 13 sep 2007 22:18:43

In article <HIgGi.64$H_5.118@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
<panther@excelsior.com> writes
Nonsense...

Cite an article or book, with full details -- not just a detached name.

Are you so stupid you don't know what a citation is?

A high-school freshman should know all about that.

I am under absolutely no obligation to provide you with anything.

I imagine that Serbo-Croatian is not one of your prime languages
therefore any citation would be meaningless.

I have no idea if David Hatch published the results of our discussions
and collaboration though if he did so it would be in Serbo-Croatian and
not English.

Laku noc'
DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i8NobEAI$Y6GFwV+@finhall.demon.co.uk...

In article <ZeeGi.59$H_5.265@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes

Cite?

DSH

"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ayFGYSAoCW6GFwSj@finhall.demon.co.uk...

Professor David Hatch is of the opinion that Red hair occurs when two
groups which were formerly of the same stock but who took different
migratory paths re-integrate. Then after several generations the gene
again becomes recessive.

I just did!

--
Bryn



--
Bryn

Here's to you Jonathan Briley, not falling but flying.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 22:19:45

O.K.

You have this JAWS 8.0?

<http://www.freedomsci.com/fs_products/JAWS_HQ.asp>

How does it output Braille?

You are completely blind, recently?

God Bless You.

We should post to your convenience whenever possible.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:dshGi.84521$lZ7.69574@newsfe20.lga...

http://www.freedomsci.com/fs_products/JAWS_HQ.asp

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:dihGi.67$H_5.317@eagle.america.net...

Right On!

Yes, and even for sighted people, it's FAR better and smarter, and faster
to have the NEW STUFF at the TOP.

Please tell us how you "read" these posts.

I'm unclear as to how your technical system works and would like to do
everything I can to make it easier and smoother for you.

Aloha,

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...

Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person
who has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, ne C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: E OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7deGi.58$H_5.169@eagle.america.net...

Top People Top Post.

Bottom People Bottom Post

It's Axiomatic.

DSH

Bryn

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Bryn » 13 sep 2007 22:20:08

In article <vd6je3pafejuetn7ntthsdhue5agslqfcu@4ax.com>, Leticia Cluff
<leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> writes
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:03:13 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
panther@excelsior.com> top-posted the following (now in its proper
place):

"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i8NobEAI$Y6GFwV+@finhall.demon.co.uk...

In article <ZeeGi.59$H_5.265@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes

Cite?

DSH

"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ayFGYSAoCW6GFwSj@finhall.demon.co.uk...

Professor David Hatch is of the opinion that Red hair occurs when two
groups which were formerly of the same stock but who took different
migratory paths re-integrate. Then after several generations the gene
again becomes recessive.

I just did!

Nonsense...

Cite an article or book, with full details -- not just a detached name.

Are you so stupid you don't know what a citation is?

A high-school freshman should know all about that.


If you went to the trouble of Googling for "David Hatch" +"red hair"
you would find the reference yourself:

http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about25843.html

Oh, dear, that was posted three and a half years ago by Bryn Fraser
himself, again without a source.

Really, now I am interested...
Still, if Douglas Richardson can cite himself, so can Bryn.

Tish

--
Bryn

Here's to you Jonathan Briley, not falling but flying.

William Black

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av William Black » 13 sep 2007 22:31:55

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:hdhGi.372$RB7.131@newsfe14.lga...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcc6ol$ch9$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...
Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person
who has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.

It's not a democracy.

There's an rfc somewhere.

That's why I said: "for what it's worth."
Exactly.


I believe you can appeal to get it changed, but you'd be very lucky these
days...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 22:39:19

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:rQhGi.68$H_5.72@eagle.america.net...
O.K.

You have this JAWS 8.0?

http://www.freedomsci.com/fs_products/JAWS_HQ.asp

How does it output Braille?

You are completely blind, recently?

Yes; that's why I posted the link in reply to your question. Why did you
think?

In addition to driving a speach synthesis engine through a computer's sound
card, JAWS will drive a refreshable braille display, an external device
connected to a com port, that consists of an array of pins that either pop
up or don't, to form a braille line that can be made to correspond to a
portion of the computer screen. (Search the Freedom Scientific site, to
which I sent the link, for info on the PowerBraille 40, for more details.)

I've been blind, with naught but light perception, since age 8, 1966. You
can do the math; but, then again, I've several times posted my actual birth
date, and you could just do the mat from that. <g>



Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

WJhonson

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 sep 2007 22:44:16

Utterly silly.
Appeal to whom? and Why?
RFC ? Request for comment?
Seems to have nothing to do with nothing.
Tempest in a teapot.
Top posters will top post and bottom posters will bottom post and all god's creatures will have shoes.
Can we move on?



In a message dated 09/13/07 14:35:25 Pacific Standard Time, william.black@hotmail.co.uk writes:

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:hdhGi.372$RB7.131@newsfe14.lga...
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcc6ol$ch9$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...
Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person
who has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.

It's not a democracy.

There's an rfc somewhere.

That's why I said: "for what it's worth."
Exactly.


I believe you can appeal to get it changed, but you'd be very lucky these
days...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.






-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 sep 2007 22:45:36

If it can talk, why do you need braille ?

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 23:01:49

"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2262.1189719972.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
If it can talk, why do you need braille ?

Suppose I want/need to check the spelling of a word it mispronounces (such
as the "Ashkenazis" we discussed earlier); read foreign words/phrases,
without having to swap out the entire speech engine; proofread my typing;
find active portions of a screen I know to be there, such as links on a page
with which I'm already familiar, without having to read through the entire
page; etc. These and many other tasks I find easier to perform with braille,
rather than speech. The easiest/most fluid access, I find, involves
continually switching back and forth between speech and braille, as the
specific task/situation requires. And, fortunately, I could afford to
acquire a refreshable braille display, as well as the JAWS software -- many
blind computer users cannot.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

David

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av David » 13 sep 2007 23:06:07

On Sep 13, 3:17 pm, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:

Prior to this thread, I wasn't aware of the possibility that the red-haired
gene in the Ashkenazi gene pool might not be the same (of the same origin)
as the red-haired gene in the Northern European gene pool. But, since
Paul(?) introduced me to said possibility, I've remembered that there is a
tradition that Genghis Khan (NOT Kahn <G>) was red-haired. As my
Ukrainian/Jewish grandmother had certain Tartar facial features (inherited
by my nephew, but not me), perhaps the red-hair in our Ashkenazi family line
isn't a legacy of Viking/Cossack rapists, after all, as I always thought.
Perhaps, it derives from Tartar rapists, instead. If so, that would separate
me even further from any likelihood of a familial arboreal connection to any
companion of The Conqueror.

No, the Mongols of the 13th century generally had, as they still have
today, hair with shades between dark brown and black; we have
paintings of Mongols from the period to demonstrate this. If red hair
cropped up occasionally, it was very rare (and so worthy of comment)
and probably due to intermarriage with non-Mongols; that is, Mongol
ancestry would not be the *source* of red hair. It should also be
noted that the sources describing Chinggis Khaghan as red-haired are
not first-hand and are open to doubt.

The incidence of red hair in peoples of the past has sometimes been
overestimated, since dark hair which is preserved (e.g. through
mummification, induced or natural) for centuries tends to undergo
chemical changes which leave it with a rusty color.

Gjest

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 sep 2007 23:09:09

On Sep 13, 12:52?pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/13/2007 7:33:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
They are not *my* references you silly monkey.
--------------------------------------------

is that the best you can do?; i was expecting more from an educated
person like you
i don't know where you got your education but i think you should ask
for your money back

pip

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 23:28:17

Thank you.

I've posted interlineally below.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:Z5iGi.388$RB7.307@newsfe14.lga...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:rQhGi.68$H_5.72@eagle.america.net...

O.K.

You have this JAWS 8.0?

http://www.freedomsci.com/fs_products/JAWS_HQ.asp

How does it output Braille?

You are completely blind, recently?

Yes; that's why I posted the link in reply to your question. Why did you
think?

Yes, I read the page.

In addition to driving a speach synthesis engine through a computer's
sound card, JAWS will drive a refreshable braille display, an external
device connected to a com port, that consists of an array of pins that
either pop up or don't, to form a braille line that can be made to
correspond to a portion of the computer screen. (Search the Freedom
Scientific site, to which I sent the link, for info on the PowerBraille
40, for more details.)

Fascinating...

I've been blind, with naught but light perception, since age 8, 1966. You
can do the math; but, then again, I've several times posted my actual
birth date, and you could just do the mat from that. <g

What happened when you were 8, in 1965-6, if you were born in 1957?

You are a Princeton graduate?...

Readers see below.

God Bless.

Aloha,

DSH

Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas9
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 23:32:06

Fascinating...

These are the sorts of details I had hoped you'd post.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:4riGi.272730$BX3.52727@newsfe13.lga...
"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2262.1189719972.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

If it can talk, why do you need braille ?

Suppose I want/need to check the spelling of a word it mispronounces (such
as the "Ashkenazis" we discussed earlier); read foreign words/phrases,
without having to swap out the entire speech engine; proofread my typing;
find active portions of a screen I know to be there, such as links on a
page with which I'm already familiar, without having to read through the
entire page; etc. These and many other tasks I find easier to perform with
braille, rather than speech. The easiest/most fluid access, I find,
involves continually switching back and forth between speech and braille,
as the specific task/situation requires. And, fortunately, I could afford
to acquire a refreshable braille display, as well as the JAWS software --
many blind computer users cannot.
--
Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 23:45:15

For more such, as well as the often differing experiences/opinions of other
blind/visually impaired computer users, browse the archives at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/blindtech/
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:_TiGi.70$H_5.211@eagle.america.net...
Fascinating...

These are the sorts of details I had hoped you'd post.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:4riGi.272730$BX3.52727@newsfe13.lga...

"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2262.1189719972.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

If it can talk, why do you need braille ?

Suppose I want/need to check the spelling of a word it mispronounces
(such as the "Ashkenazis" we discussed earlier); read foreign
words/phrases, without having to swap out the entire speech engine;
proofread my typing; find active portions of a screen I know to be there,
such as links on a page with which I'm already familiar, without having
to read through the entire page; etc. These and many other tasks I find
easier to perform with braille, rather than speech. The easiest/most
fluid access, I find, involves continually switching back and forth
between speech and braille, as the specific task/situation requires. And,
fortunately, I could afford to acquire a refreshable braille display, as
well as the JAWS software -- many blind computer users cannot.
--
Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, ne C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: E OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/


WJhonson

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 sep 2007 23:53:20

<<In a message dated 09/13/07 15:10:16 Pacific Standard Time, PIPPHILLIPS18 writes:
is that the best you can do?; i was expecting more from an educated person like you i don't know where you got your education but i think you should ask for your money back >>
------------------------
You were expecting more abuse and high falootin insultin here at this ho down ?

I don't yet know you well enough to truly insult you with passion and verve. But keep it up mister smart aleck and we'll see ;)

Will

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 13 sep 2007 23:56:22

Bryn wrote:
In article <HIgGi.64$H_5.118@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes
Nonsense...

Cite an article or book, with full details -- not just a detached
name.

Are you so stupid you don't know what a citation is?

A high-school freshman should know all about that.

I am under absolutely no obligation to provide you with anything.

I imagine that Serbo-Croatian is not one of your prime languages
therefore any citation would be meaningless.

I have no idea if David Hatch published the results of our discussions
and collaboration though if he did so it would be in Serbo-Croatian
and not English.

The language no longer exists, of course - it has been replaced by Bosnian,
Serbian and Croatian (possibly also Montenegrin). "Serbo-Croat" was
preferred in British usage.
--
John Briggs

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 00:37:22

Content-Free Response Noted & Discarded.

No one gives a damn about his "discussion and collaboration", sans details,
with some further unidentified David Hatch.

DSH

Bryn wrote:

In article <HIgGi.64$H_5.118@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines

panther@excelsior.com> writes

Nonsense...

Cite an article or book, with full details -- not just a detached
name.

Are you so stupid you don't know what a citation is?

A high-school freshman should know all about that.

I am under absolutely no obligation to provide you with anything.

I imagine that Serbo-Croatian is not one of your prime languages
therefore any citation would be meaningless.

I have no idea if David Hatch published the results of our discussions
and collaboration though if he did so it would be in Serbo-Croatian
and not English.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Marquess of Blandford

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 00:38:19

Capital!

DSH

"Anne Jackson" <amygdala@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:313030303432363046E9D3C392@zetnet.co.uk...
The message from Turenne <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> contains these
words:

Blandford has been sentenced to 6 months in prison for repeated
driving offences, 'road rage' and racially abusing a taxi driver. It
is now fairly well known that The Duke of Marlborough has disinherited
him, but I understand that he (Marlborough) is attempting to bypass
Blandford in the succession to the dukedom, in favour of Blandford's
brother Lord Edward Spencer-Churchill. Is there a precedent for doing
this, and is an Act of Parliament neccessary?

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/ ... 950306.ece

Although he was in line to be the next Duke, he was barred from
inheriting Blenheim or the chairmanship of the trust which runs
the 2,100-acre estate – both of which will now pass to his son
George, the Earl of Sunderland.

--
AnneJ

If you don't quit, and don't cheat, and don't run home
when trouble arrives, you can only win.
~Shelley Long

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 00:41:38

I'm far more interested in YOUR experiences -- rather than those of some
generic blind/visually impaired computer user.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:N3jGi.272733$BX3.62111@newsfe13.lga...

For more such, as well as the often differing experiences/opinions of
other blind/visually impaired computer users, browse the archives at:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/blindtech/

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:_TiGi.70$H_5.211@eagle.america.net...

Fascinating...

These are the sorts of details I had hoped you'd post.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:4riGi.272730$BX3.52727@newsfe13.lga...

"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2262.1189719972.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

If it can talk, why do you need braille ?

Suppose I want/need to check the spelling of a word it mispronounces
(such as the "Ashkenazis" we discussed earlier); read foreign
words/phrases, without having to swap out the entire speech engine;
proofread my typing; find active portions of a screen I know to be
there, such as links on a page with which I'm already familiar, without
having to read through the entire page; etc. These and many other tasks
I find easier to perform with braille, rather than speech. The
easiest/most fluid access, I find, involves continually switching back
and forth between speech and braille, as the specific task/situation
requires. And, fortunately, I could afford to acquire a refreshable
braille display, as well as the JAWS software -- many blind computer
users cannot.
--
Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, ne C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: E OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 14 sep 2007 00:57:52

Leticia Cluff <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in
news:vd6je3pafejuetn7ntthsdhue5agslqfcu@4ax.com:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:03:13 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
panther@excelsior.com> top-posted the following (now in its proper
place):

"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i8NobEAI$Y6GFwV+@finhall.demon.co.uk...

In article <ZeeGi.59$H_5.265@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes

Cite?

DSH

"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremilinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ayFGYSAoCW6GFwSj@finhall.demon.co.uk...

Professor David Hatch is of the opinion that Red hair occurs when
two
groups which were formerly of the same stock but who took different
migratory paths re-integrate. Then after several generations the
gene
again becomes recessive.

I just did!

Nonsense...

Cite an article or book, with full details -- not just a detached name.

Are you so stupid you don't know what a citation is?

A high-school freshman should know all about that.


If you went to the trouble of Googling for "David Hatch" +"red hair"
you would find the reference yourself:

http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about25843.html

Oh, dear, that was posted three and a half years ago by Bryn Fraser
himself, again without a source.

Still, if Douglas Richardson can cite himself, so can Bryn.

Tish


Don't believe enything you read in a thread involving Dairmid Logan.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

WJhonson

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 sep 2007 01:15:26

<<In a message dated 09/13/07 16:44:24 Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870 writes:
I seem to recall reading in the forward of my penguin
paperback edition of Geoffrey of Monmouth`s " History of the Kings of Britain" that
Geoffrey copied a lot of his material from earlier work written by Welsh monks
which doubtless came from the lips of Welsh poets and genealogists who had
it from the lips of their teachers, et cetera. >>

--------------------

Geoffrey states that he got his material from an old book. The accepted wisdom is either that he made it all up which seems hardly likely if you read it; OR that he was relating actual stories mixed in with some of his own fiction.

Certainly it seems pretty odd that he would believe that King Arthur (who per the loose chronology I've built based on Geoffrey, must have reigned around 500) had actually conquered Paris and all of Gaul, etc, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Denmark....

That part, I can certainly believe, Geoffrey very greatly exaggerated. Arthur it seems, based simply on the *amount* of material he gives him and his exploits, was the main point of the work, although we don't get *to* Arthur until the last few "books" (12 books in all).

He mentions Merlin here and there, but quite a lot of the book is very dry detailing of genealogies, apparently stretching back to perhaps 1500 to 2000 BC, not all of which obviously connect to each other. If this is a work of pure fiction is a very boring one, and judged by the things he says about Arthur he certainly *could* have made up a lot more about everyone else. If you're going to write a whopper of fiction pretending to be fact, why make parts of it dreadfully dull?

In particular, although he claims British lineage for Constantine the Great among others, he doesn't really dwell on what Constantine exactly did. Seems a bit odd to just skip merrily past one of the greatest leaders of the past if your main point is to show how amazing the British were.

Will Johnson

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Eoppa

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 14 sep 2007 01:20:23

Dear James,
I was seeing Eafa as male, and as possible sibling of the Kentish king. I see the origin of the Kentish-West Saxon union as somewhat older than Dave Kelley's thesis - for the reasons stated in my last post. Perhaps others might weigh-in on this; 'though I suspect the consensus is that no-one should bother. I think that this point was briefly discussed at groups.yahoo.com/group/Anglo-Saxon_genealogy a while back. IIRC, the discussion kind of fizzled.
I have looked at Medieval Lands, and the editor-compiler may have gotten his information, (he has Eofa as a male, son of Eoppa), from my piece in _Foundations_, 1:6, p. 409; but since it isn't cited, we don't know.
Sincerely

Ford MB

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: Eoppa


: Dear Ford,
: I recall reading the Eafa as West Saxon heiress married to
: a Kentish aetheling as well but at somewhere far less reputable than Stewart
: Baldwin, namely the Medieval Lands project. Stewart`s Henry Project doesn`t
: seem to venture beyond King Alfred of England died 899 at this point.
:
: Sincerely,
:
: James W Cummings
:
: Dixmont, Maine USA
:
:
:
: ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
:
: -------------------------------
: To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

taf

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av taf » 14 sep 2007 01:26:43

On Sep 13, 3:09 pm, PIPPHILLIP...@AOL.com wrote:
On Sep 13, 12:52?pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:> In a message dated 9/13/2007 7:33:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
They are not *my* references you silly monkey.

--------------------------------------------
is that the best you can do?; i was expecting more from an educated
person like you
i don't know where you got your education but i think you should ask
for your money back

My question is, is this the best _you_ can do? You have attacked his
education, his reading, and the well-being of his soul. What you have
not done is support your position.

taf

Gjest

Re: Eoppa

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 01:31:03

Dear Ford,
I recall reading the Eafa as West Saxon heiress married to
a Kentish aetheling as well but at somewhere far less reputable than Stewart
Baldwin, namely the Medieval Lands project. Stewart`s Henry Project doesn`t
seem to venture beyond King Alfred of England died 899 at this point.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Ray O'Hara

Re: Marquess of Blandford

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 14 sep 2007 01:36:11

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:%RjGi.72$H_5.96@eagle.america.net...

that last worthy spencer is jeremy spencer

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 sep 2007 01:38:45

<<In a message dated 09/12/07 01:00:18 Pacific Standard Time, farmerie@interfold.com writes:
Another rule of thumb made law, it would seem. And an application of
the generic to specific. Still, I guess no one told James "de
Vernon", 1422. >>

-----------------------------
Todd I'm glad you mention that point. It almost eluded me, until DR pointed out how horribly James Alexander Manning has mangled things in his work "The Lives of the Speakers of the House of Commons".

Not *only* does he call William de Vernon's wife "Benedicta" violating one of DR's cardinal rules that English women should be called by names germinating from the English language; BUT he also violates another one of DR's cardinal rules "...William de Vernon, who by Benedicta, his wife...", that is using the "de" for a family who obviously lived after 1400.

Although he *does* correct himself in only calling the son Richard Vernon, instead of "de Vernon".

However I would be remiss if I did not point out that the DNB, "Vernon or Pembruge, Sir Richard (d. 1451)" article does all sorts of flip-flops over "de"

Stating that he was son of Richard DE Vernon d 1402 (however we know that this father stopped using de in 1400)

But then it makes the horrible gaff saying he married Benedicta (there's that Latin name again!) DE Ludlow (de ! after 1400 !)

To be serious for a wee moment however, they there call Benedicta de Ludlow "the DAUGHTER" of Sir Robert Pembrugge of Tong and Juliana Trussel.

Seems like even they are confused as she could not be Ludlow if she is Pembrugge. It must be that Juliana Trussel was twice married and perhaps Robert calls her "daughter" anyway at some point, even though she is a step-daughter thus confusing 500 years of genealogists.

I'm so glad however that we could express our outrage that genealogists and historians of the past insist on using the form Benedicta instead of Bennet, and instead on haphazardly throwing around "de" after 1400. It's simply scandalous.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 01:45:04

Dear Will,
I seem to recall reading in the forward of my penguin
paperback edition of Geoffrey of Monmouth`s " History of the Kings of Britain" that
Geoffrey copied a lot of his material from earlier work written by Welsh monks
which doubtless came from the lips of Welsh poets and genealogists who had
it from the lips of their teachers, et cetera.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 sep 2007 01:58:10

<<In a message dated 09/12/07 01:20:24 Pacific Standard Time, farmerie@interfold.com writes:
No, just a general comment about reading things into arms. That being
said, in digging around I found that Durvassal apparently descended
from their own Camville heiress. I guess that gives someone some
weasel room. (I note there is a decent Durvassal summary in VCH Warks:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=57006 , although
the author was apparently unaware of the indenture I cited elsewhere
in this thread.) >>
-----------------------------------------
In looking through the report on the Manor of Spernell, I'm struck by the name Walter Holt son of John Holt, and that Walter was a minor in 1401 but came of age in 1402/3

I already have a Walter Holte in my database, who is that Walter Holte of Aston; escheator for the counties of Warwick and Leicester tempe E3 and R2; adult by 1377 if not earlier

This Walter Holte married Margery Bagot and is known to have had inter alia an eldest son John Holte "of Yardley.

I have nothing in the chronology that *precludes* this John from being that same John who could have had a son by 1381/2 and the fact that his own father had the uncommon name Walter might speak to this line being connected.

Thoughts? Comments? Vicious personal attacks based on my spelling ?

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 sep 2007 02:15:24

<<In a message dated 09/12/07 01:20:24 Pacific Standard Time, farmerie@interfold.com writes:
I guess that gives someone some
weasel room. (I note there is a decent Durvassal summary in VCH Warks:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=57006 , although
the author was apparently unaware of the indenture I cited elsewhere
in this thread.) >>

----------------------
The next interesting point in the descent of Spernell.
This report states that Henry Beaumont and Joan his wife had half the manor in 1441 when they dispossessed it to John Throckmorton and that Dugdale makes this Joan a granddaughter of William Spernore who this report guesses might be an illegitimate son.

However C.T.e.G. also repeats this claim when it makes Henry Heronville marry Margaret Spernore co-heiress of her father and have an only heir, a daughter Joan Heronville who marries Sir Henry Beaumont as her second husband.

They cite numerous MS for the general line, without specifically stating this particular conflict.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 sep 2007 02:34:58

<<In a message dated 09/12/07 09:35:19 Pacific Standard Time, farmerie@interfold.com writes:
You know
exactly which of your cited reference(s) you used to draw this
conclusion, but you refuse to tell - still making friends. >>-------------------------

-----------------
I would suggest this is an unwarranted assumption. I'm not at all warm-and-fuzzy with the idea that DR does know which source says what.

There was a case last year, when someone (I've forgotten the details) went through and demolished his case, source-by-source and IIRC DR did not pipe up. It may even be one of those cases, where he vanished for a few months.

Call me out-of-touch but I have this odd hunch....

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 sep 2007 02:50:14

<<In a message dated 09/13/07 14:10:32 Pacific Standard Time, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:
That's right, your research indicates correctly- indeed, Sir John
Vernon (d.1545) has a fine tomb in the church at Clifton Campville. >>
--------------------
Can we quibble? I think the date is 9 Feb 1545/6

Will

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 sep 2007 02:59:37

<<In a message dated 09/13/07 18:55:37 Pacific Standard Time, farmerie@interfold.com writes:
- maybe I should
post this to five newsgroups as a VCH Correction), and Thomas granted
it to William, son of John, who>>

--------------
Where are you getting that Thomas granted it to William? The VCH report doesn't state that. It only states that William received a life interest and died perhaps in or slightly before 1401.

Will

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 05:34:53

On Sep 12, 6:11 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:





No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.
As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.
But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is some thought, currently, that the red-hair gene (at least in
northern Europe) is linked to Neanderthals.

Bryn

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Bryn » 14 sep 2007 08:33:06

In article <qejGi.55667$h11.6603@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, John Briggs
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> writes
Bryn wrote:
In article <HIgGi.64$H_5.118@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes
Nonsense...

Cite an article or book, with full details -- not just a detached
name.

Are you so stupid you don't know what a citation is?

A high-school freshman should know all about that.

I am under absolutely no obligation to provide you with anything.

I imagine that Serbo-Croatian is not one of your prime languages
therefore any citation would be meaningless.

I have no idea if David Hatch published the results of our discussions
and collaboration though if he did so it would be in Serbo-Croatian
and not English.

The language no longer exists, of course - it has been replaced by Bosnian,
Serbian and Croatian (possibly also Montenegrin). "Serbo-Croat" was
preferred in British usage.

Anybody want to buy slightly used copy of "Serbo-Croatian for
Travellers" Berlitz?

--
Bryn

Here's to you Jonathan Briley, not falling but flying.

Bryn

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Bryn » 14 sep 2007 08:35:46

In article <dRjGi.71$H_5.174@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
<panther@excelsior.com> writes
Content-Free Response Noted & Discarded.

No one gives a damn about his "discussion and collaboration", sans details,
with some further unidentified David Hatch.

Woooo Hoooo.................

You're just pissed because I did not take the "Companions" bait..
DSH

Bryn wrote:

In article <HIgGi.64$H_5.118@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines

panther@excelsior.com> writes

Nonsense...

Cite an article or book, with full details -- not just a detached
name.

Are you so stupid you don't know what a citation is?

A high-school freshman should know all about that.

I am under absolutely no obligation to provide you with anything.

I imagine that Serbo-Croatian is not one of your prime languages
therefore any citation would be meaningless.

I have no idea if David Hatch published the results of our discussions
and collaboration though if he did so it would be in Serbo-Croatian
and not English.



--
Bryn

Here's to you Jonathan Briley, not falling but flying.

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 14 sep 2007 10:18:11

Bryn wrote:
In article <qejGi.55667$h11.6603@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, John Briggs
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> writes
Bryn wrote:
In article <HIgGi.64$H_5.118@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes
Nonsense...

Cite an article or book, with full details -- not just a detached
name.

Are you so stupid you don't know what a citation is?

A high-school freshman should know all about that.

I am under absolutely no obligation to provide you with anything.

I imagine that Serbo-Croatian is not one of your prime languages
therefore any citation would be meaningless.

I have no idea if David Hatch published the results of our
discussions and collaboration though if he did so it would be in
Serbo-Croatian and not English.

The language no longer exists, of course - it has been replaced by
Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian (possibly also Montenegrin).
"Serbo-Croat" was preferred in British usage.

Anybody want to buy slightly used copy of "Serbo-Croatian for
Travellers" Berlitz?

Rather than "Teach Yourself Serbo-Croat"? Neither book is currently
available - which is the point I was making.
--
John Briggs

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 14 sep 2007 10:21:12

lostcooper@yahoo.com wrote:
On Sep 12, 6:11 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie
dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:





No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume, duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in
the rear, at the Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became
Guillaume le Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to
this very day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et
alii -- but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of
your own. Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at
Hastings.
As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any
companions of the Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family
tree. The closest to any Norman I'm likely to get is the
hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack rapist who introduced
the red-hair gene into my bloodline.
But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is some thought, currently, that the red-hair gene (at least in
northern Europe) is linked to Neanderthals.

As is white skin, for that matter...
--
John Briggs

a.spencer3

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 14 sep 2007 10:35:45

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:dihGi.67$H_5.317@eagle.america.net...
Right On!

Yes, and even for sighted people, it's FAR better and smarter, and faster
to
have the NEW STUFF at the TOP.

Please tell us how you "read" these posts.

I'm unclear as to how your technical system works and would like to do
everything I can to make it easier and smoother for you.


Beware of Hawaiian Housing Officers bearing gifts.

Surreyman

Normandy

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Normandy » 14 sep 2007 10:57:16

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
RBsGi.42358$ph7.15497@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:dihGi.67$H_5.317@eagle.america.net...
Right On!

Yes, and even for sighted people, it's FAR better and smarter, and faster
to
have the NEW STUFF at the TOP.

Please tell us how you "read" these posts.

I'm unclear as to how your technical system works and would like to do
everything I can to make it easier and smoother for you.


Beware of Hawaiian Housing Officers bearing gifts.

Surreyman
Is that the Housing Office at Pearl Harbour?


Normandy


a.spencer3

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 14 sep 2007 11:00:50

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46ea5b12$0$27380$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
RBsGi.42358$ph7.15497@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:dihGi.67$H_5.317@eagle.america.net...
Right On!

Yes, and even for sighted people, it's FAR better and smarter, and
faster
to
have the NEW STUFF at the TOP.

Please tell us how you "read" these posts.

I'm unclear as to how your technical system works and would like to do
everything I can to make it easier and smoother for you.


Beware of Hawaiian Housing Officers bearing gifts.

Surreyman
Is that the Housing Office at Pearl Harbour?


Don't know.
Hines still had his glorious career ahead of him in '41.
Ask him!

Surreyman

Brian Pears

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Brian Pears » 14 sep 2007 11:37:49

John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
The language no longer exists, of course - it has been replaced by
Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian (possibly also Montenegrin).
"Serbo-Croat" was preferred in British usage.

As the 'languages' are completely mutually intelligible, is it
not more accurate to describe them as dialects of the same
language, Serbo-Croat, like Geordie, Scouse, Brum, American,
Australian, Cockney and Mancunian are to English? Surely it's
just nationalism which prompts the insistence that their local
dialect is a distinct 'language'.

--
Brian Pears
Gateshead, UK

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 14 sep 2007 12:03:25

Brian Pears wrote:
John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:
The language no longer exists, of course - it has been replaced by
Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian (possibly also Montenegrin).
"Serbo-Croat" was preferred in British usage.

As the 'languages' are completely mutually intelligible, is it
not more accurate to describe them as dialects of the same
language, Serbo-Croat, like Geordie, Scouse, Brum, American,
Australian, Cockney and Mancunian are to English? Surely it's
just nationalism which prompts the insistence that their local
dialect is a distinct 'language'.

OK, what's the linguists definition of the difference between a language and
a dialect?
--
John Briggs

David

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av David » 14 sep 2007 13:11:43

On Sep 14, 6:03 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Brian Pears wrote:
John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
The language no longer exists, of course - it has been replaced by
Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian (possibly also Montenegrin).
"Serbo-Croat" was preferred in British usage.

As the 'languages' are completely mutually intelligible, is it
not more accurate to describe them as dialects of the same
language, Serbo-Croat, like Geordie, Scouse, Brum, American,
Australian, Cockney and Mancunian are to English? Surely it's
just nationalism which prompts the insistence that their local
dialect is a distinct 'language'.

OK, what's the linguists definition of the difference between a language and
a dialect?
--
John Briggs

"A language is a dialect with an army and a navy".

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 14 sep 2007 13:47:34

David wrote:
On Sep 14, 6:03 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Brian Pears wrote:
John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
The language no longer exists, of course - it has been replaced by
Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian (possibly also Montenegrin).
"Serbo-Croat" was preferred in British usage.

As the 'languages' are completely mutually intelligible, is it
not more accurate to describe them as dialects of the same
language, Serbo-Croat, like Geordie, Scouse, Brum, American,
Australian, Cockney and Mancunian are to English? Surely it's
just nationalism which prompts the insistence that their local
dialect is a distinct 'language'.

OK, what's the linguists definition of the difference between a
language and a dialect?

"A language is a dialect with an army and a navy".

Correct.

Max Weinreich: "A shprakh iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot" [ "A
language is a dialect with an army and a navy"] in "Der yivo un di
problemen fun undzer tsayt" ["Yivo" and the problems of our time]
Yivo-bleter, Vol. 25, No. 1, p. 13 (1945).

As he was writing in 1945, it is quite possible that by "flot" he meant "air
force" (there being a distinct lack of navies in central Europe, with the
possible exception of Hungary) - but that the word didn't yet exist in
Yiddish.
--
John Briggs

Gjest

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 16:40:05

According to Shaw's Staffordshire the entry was as follows . . .

Johannes Vernon de Harlaston, (miles in one, but whether copy or oiginal I
know not,) Feb. 12 1544, fepultus. Reg. Clifton. (sic).

Kind Regards,

Rose
Surrey / UK

Gjest

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 16:40:06

On Sep 13, 6:53?pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 09/13/07 15:10:16 Pacific Standard Time,

I don't yet know you well enough to truly insult you with passion and verve. But keep it up mister smart aleck and we'll see

Will
----------------------------------------------

is that a threat? communication of threats is against the law? I think
I will consult my cousin, a lawyer, as what options I have

Pip

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 17:09:24

<G>

Fair Enough.

For parallel structure, we should probably call it the Scrotal Line -- and
the Uterine Line.

So, you have an advanced case of Scrotal Line Length Envy...

OR, Penile Line Length Envy -- if you insist.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fbuqdl$7v9$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Do you give the same priority to an All-Female, Uterine, Line?...

Which is even rarer.


yes, of course

Admit it, McDonald...

You are a First-Rate Male Chauvinist Pig -- born, bred and educated in
Texas.

In this case, I'm afraid you have got it right! And that's even
though my paper trail ... NO ... make that BECAUSE my paper
trail ... poops out well later (fewer generations back) than
any other of my lines. So I must make do with my DNA connection to
the famous progenitor of the chiefly line (i.e. line of the Clan chiefs).

I've got a bad case of the agnatic line length envy :-) :-) :-)

The uterine line goes back a bit farther, though the farthest back
lady (one Sarah Clawson) seems quite uninteresting.

Doug McDonald

Doug McDonald

Magna Carta sureties ... was Hastings

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 14 sep 2007 17:19:38

DSH suggested that since I had lots of ancestors at the Battle
of Hastings (in fact, the number is now 13 "companions", which
is all of them with living descendants, plus the loser and the winner),
I should have had lots of Magna Carta sureties in my ancestry.

In fact, I do have 8 of them. But at really appears that I
don't descend from the rest. A close reading of Richardson's
Magna Carta book seems to have all the other sureties leading to names
that simply don't appear in my files. Close inspection of
Genealogics and Tim Powys-Lybbe's file shows no clues.

I suspect that, if such lines exist, they would be through my three
main non-royal lines that stretch back far in England,
Lathom (Frances Lathom who married Jeremy Clark and William Dungan,
I descend from Dungan), Fitzhugh of Great Barford, Bedfordshire
(no known relation to Lord Fitzhugh), and perhaps Weaver (ancestral to
Clement Weaver of Rhode Island). All of these show signs of being
in a social stratum where a connection to noble lines
would be reasonable. However, none has been found, and the lines themselves
are all mildly suspect simply because they derive from publications
of the very early 20th century.

I do suggest that professional genealogists looking for big
discoveries might well consider these lines. I discovered the
Edward III ancestry of Rev. Robert Rose of Virginia by searching his Grant
wife's ancestry.

Doug McDonald

Hovite

Re: Eoppa

Legg inn av Hovite » 14 sep 2007 17:21:29

On Sep 14, 12:28 am, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Ford,
I recall reading the Eafa as West Saxon heiress married to a Kentish aetheling

They is no evidence for that, and Anglo-Saxon kingdoms could be
acquired by conquest, and frequently were.

Doug McDonald

Re: Magna Carta sureties ... was Hastings

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 14 sep 2007 17:27:01

Doug McDonald wrote:

I do suggest that professional genealogists looking for big
discoveries might well consider these lines. I discovered the
Edward III ancestry of Rev. Robert Rose of Virginia by searching his Grant
wife's ancestry.
^^^^


make that mother, not wife


Doug

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 17:45:51

Hmmmmm...

Curious.

Are you sure you've checked all those relevant Uterine Lines that you seem
to consider less important, Doug?

There are of course the 25 sureties for Magna Carta -- plus William
Marshall, Earl of Pembroke -- plus the 29 Guarantors and Counselors of King
John -- with some overlap.

And you can't pick up more than EIGHT?

You are descended from Edward III?

If so, perhaps I can help.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fcecbh$rj2$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

DSH suggested that since I had lots of ancestors at the Battle
of Hastings (in fact, the number is now 13 "companions", which
is all of them with living descendants, plus the loser and the winner),
I should have had lots of Magna Carta sureties in my ancestry.

In fact, I do have 8 of them. But at [sic] really appears that I
don't descend from the rest.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 17:51:00

<G>

Indeed.

DSH

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fcecp8$rj2$2@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

Doug McDonald wrote:

I do suggest that professional genealogists looking for big
discoveries might well consider these lines. I discovered the
Edward III ancestry of Rev. Robert Rose of Virginia by searching his
Grant wife's ancestry.
^^^^

make that mother, not wife


Doug

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 17:54:25

Hmmmmm...

Curious.

Are you sure you've checked all those relevant Uterine Lines that you seem
to consider less important, Doug?

There are of course the 25 sureties for Magna Carta -- plus William
Marshall, Earl of Pembroke -- plus the 29 Guarantors and Counselors of King
John -- with some overlap.

And you can't pick up more than EIGHT?

You are descended from Henry VII?

If so, perhaps I can help.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fcecbh$rj2$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

DSH suggested that since I had lots of ancestors at the Battle
of Hastings (in fact, the number is now 13 "companions", which
is all of them with living descendants, plus the loser and the winner),
I should have had lots of Magna Carta sureties in my ancestry.

In fact, I do have 8 of them. But at [sic] really appears that I
don't descend from the rest.

Doug McDonald

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 14 sep 2007 18:05:17

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Hmmmmm...

Curious.

Are you sure you've checked all those relevant Uterine Lines that you seem
to consider less important, Doug?

There are of course the 25 sureties for Magna Carta -- plus William
Marshall, Earl of Pembroke -- plus the 29 Guarantors and Counselors of King
John -- with some overlap.

And you can't pick up more than EIGHT?

You are descended from Edward III?


Indeed I am, as I am of Robert III of Scotland and Joan Beaufort
who married James I (who is not my ancestor; her second
husband the Black Knight of Lorn, is.)
If so, perhaps I can help.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fcecbh$rj2$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

DSH suggested that since I had lots of ancestors at the Battle
of Hastings (in fact, the number is now 13 "companions", which
is all of them with living descendants, plus the loser and the winner),
I should have had lots of Magna Carta sureties in my ancestry.

In fact, I do have 8 of them. But at [sic] really appears that I
don't descend from the rest.



I was considering only those 17 men in Richardson's book. I descend from
William Marshall whom you mention, as well as the two Bigods,
two de Clares, Saher de Quincy, Robert de Vere, William Malet,
and John Fitz Robert.

Who are those other of the 25 sureties, and that other list of 29
I never heard of?

So indeed maybe you can help!

Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 18:23:44

Good!

And from Henry VII?

DSH

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fcef11$sh9$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Hmmmmm...

Curious.

Are you sure you've checked all those relevant Uterine Lines that you
seem
to consider less important, Doug?

There are of course the 25 sureties for Magna Carta -- plus William
Marshall, Earl of Pembroke -- plus the 29 Guarantors and Counselors of
King
John -- with some overlap.

And you can't pick up more than EIGHT?

You are descended from Edward III?

Indeed I am, as I am of Robert III of Scotland and Joan Beaufort
who married James I (who is not my ancestor; her second
husband the Black Knight of Lorn, is.)

If so, perhaps I can help.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fcecbh$rj2$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

DSH suggested that since I had lots of ancestors at the Battle
of Hastings (in fact, the number is now 13 "companions", which
is all of them with living descendants, plus the loser and the winner),
I should have had lots of Magna Carta sureties in my ancestry.

In fact, I do have 8 of them. But at [sic] really appears that I
don't descend from the rest.

I was considering only those 17 men in Richardson's book. I descend from
William Marshall whom you mention, as well as the two Bigods,
two de Clares, Saher de Quincy, Robert de Vere, William Malet,
and John Fitz Robert.

Who are those other of the 25 sureties, and that other list of 29
I never heard of?

So indeed maybe you can help!

Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 18:31:22

O.K. Doug, let's start at the beginning.

Here are the 25 Magna Carta Sureties:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Charta_Sureties>

Surely you can bag more than EIGHT of them.

Bishops and Abbots follow -- perhaps you can pick up one or two of them,
even more, as well.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 18:40:06

In a message dated 9/14/2007 2:25:19 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com writes:

There is some thought, currently, that the red-hair gene (at least in
northern Europe) is linked to Neanderthals.

As is white skin, for that matter...


-----------------
Ridiculous poppycock. Everyone knows that white skin came from intermixing
with "The Watchers" i.e. angelic beings.

Get real.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

erilar

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av erilar » 14 sep 2007 18:41:31

In article <fcc6ol$ch9$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:p3hGi.369$RB7.267@newsfe14.lga...
Also, top posting makes it much easier (and faster) for a blind person who
has been keeping up with a particular thread to find the newly added
comments, rather than having to scrolling past scores of
-ed lines.

For what it's worth, I vote for top posting.

It's not a democracy.

There's an rfc somewhere.

Please don't top post.

What we really need around here is sensible cropping of long posts.

--
Mary, biblioholic

bib-li-o-hol-ism : the habitual longing to purchase, read, store,
admire, and consume books in excess.

http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo

Gjest

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 18:51:03

In a message dated 9/14/2007 8:40:18 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHILLIPS18@aol.com writes:

is that a threat? communication of threats is against the law? I think
I will consult my cousin, a lawyer, as what options I have



-----------------------------
Please do, it would be a hoot.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 18:54:04

Indeed.

And Top Posting --The Preferred Posting Style Of The Cognoscenti.

DSH

"erilar" <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:drache-7DBCE8.12413114092007@news.airstreamcomm.net...

> What we really need around here is sensible cropping of long posts.

Doug McDonald

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 14 sep 2007 18:58:49

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Good!

And from Henry VII?


No, unfortunately. I miss by one generation: the wife
of the next (and last) generation of Grant of Ballindalloch,
after the one I descend from, married a descendant of Henry VIII.

This person is not last because he had no descendants, which he did,
but because he had to sell it because of bankruptcy. This was just
as primogeniture was pooping out.

Doug McDonald

Paul J Gans

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 14 sep 2007 19:15:02

In alt.history.british Normandy <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a ?crit dans le message de news:
RBsGi.42358$ph7.15497@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:dihGi.67$H_5.317@eagle.america.net...
Right On!

Yes, and even for sighted people, it's FAR better and smarter, and faster
to
have the NEW STUFF at the TOP.

Please tell us how you "read" these posts.

I'm unclear as to how your technical system works and would like to do
everything I can to make it easier and smoother for you.


Beware of Hawaiian Housing Officers bearing gifts.

Surreyman
Is that the Housing Office at Pearl Harbour?

The very one.


--
--- Paul J. Gans

Hovite

Re: Fwd: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av Hovite » 14 sep 2007 19:41:17

On Sep 12, 11:10 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Last year James Cummings (of Dixmont, Maine) posted that : "According
to David Williamson`s "Kings and Queens of Britain" Appendix B Table 2
(pg 213) Hengist, King of Kent abt 455-488 was father of Aesc, King
of Kent abt 488- 512 and a daugher married to Vortigern, King of the
Britons...."

For the last few days, I've been reading and extracting the fanciful
genealogies and associated fractured chronology from Geoffrey of
Monmouth's "British History" and came upon Book VI, Chapter XII
stating "Vortegirn marries Rowen, the daughter of Hengist".

For those of you who like citing the exact sources for exact claims.

I'm not claiming this work is truthful, only that it's citable.

The name Rowena is impossible for an Anglo-Saxon woman, and the whole
story is clearly just a fairy tale.

Andrew Inge Lancaster

RE: Gilbert of Lancaster

Legg inn av Andrew Inge Lancaster » 14 sep 2007 19:50:51

Hi

I think I've set my mail up oddly on a new computer because it should be
"Andrew and Inge" not "Andrew Inge". I am Andrew Lancaster.

Henry the son of Warine definitely used the names de Lea and de Lancaster,
as did at least some of his brothers, and from him down at least his line is
quite well-known. His descendant of the same name was executed by Thomas de
Lancaster of the Plantagenets before he got executed himself. (Another de
Lancaster, John, this one being a member of the family of the Barons of
Kendal and therefore a distant relative of Henry, became the man responsible
for keeping and wrapping up the estate of said Thomas.)

Henry and Roger also had a brother Adam. See the webpage I made. The
Cockersand Chartulary which makes all this clear is on books.google.com and
covers your points d, e, and f.

Concerning a, b and c, well, I've not heard that anyone has had success yet.
I presume you realize that Ayloffe wrote some centuries ago. It is therefore
possible he saw records which no longer exist.

A similar story which I can't trace is the one passed on by Radcliffe
genealogists, also going back at least 100 years, that they descend from a
Nicholas who was a son of a Gilbert de Furnesio or Furnesco (of Furness).
(It is a lovely fact that almost every webpage has Frunesco, copied from
some original webpage without checking.)

Yours
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: paul bulkley [mailto:designeconomic@yahoo.com]
Sent: 14 September 2007 18:29
To: gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com
Subject: Gilbert of Lancaster

Further reference to Ayloffe's Lancashire Note that
addresses the time when Lancaster Castle was made a
prison, and the Kendal Family responsible for its
operation.

Andrew Inge has made a significant comment that
information sources are not known. Perhaps not
currently acknowledged but possibly can be found
directly or indirectly in public records.

The Kendal time frame appears to be acceptable
relative to known records:

Ivo Talebois 1025/1095
Eldred 1045/
Ketel 1065/1125
Gilbert 1085/
William 1 1110/1171
Willima 11 1135/1184

The existence of Warin Lancaster and his two sons
Henry and Roger is recorded as witnesses to the
1189/94 Charter of Hugh Bussell to Richard (s) Ughtred
of N.Meols. It would appear that Warin would be of a
similar time frame to that of William 11. And surely
Warin's son Henry is the "Henricus de Lea" as
mentioned in the Lancashire Note.

It should be possible to find public records
supporting the following claims in the Lancashire
Note:

(a) Gilbert Baron of Kendal appointed Receiver for the
County of Lancaster.
(b) Gilbert being also known as Gilbert de Furnesso.
It would seem very likely because of the Kendal
interests in Furness and adjoining areas.
(c) William 1 as Baron of Lancaster being constituted
"Seneschallus Hospitii Regis", and obtaining the
consent of Parliament to call himself Gilbert of
Lancaster.
(d) Warin (younger brother of William 1) Keeper of the
Castle and Prison, and as "Magister Servius" with his
"Corrodium" therein.
(e) Warin's reward from the king of the Towns of
Aynoldsdale, Ravenmoles,(totally destroyed by the
sea), Leverpool, Lytherland, and Franch Lea.
(f) That Warin's son Henry inherited the above towns,
and was called "Henricus de Lea"

There should be no reason why you genealogical experts
cannot agree that the Lancashire Note is either a
Fairy Story or not.

Finally can someone who understands how to contact the
Web Master of Gen Medieval please advise him that I
have not received any messages from Gen Medieval for
the past two weeks.

Thank you

Paul Bulkley



____________________________________________________________________________
________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated
for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gam ... olyherenow

Gjest

Re: Petition from Eleanor de Bohun, widow of Robert de Ferre

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 20:35:04

Douglas Richardson has posted an interesting record of the petition of
Eleanor de Bohun. The ODNB identifies her as Eleanor, daughter of Humphrey de
Bohun, a Montfortian who died at or soon after the battle of Evesham, and gives
the date of her marriage to Robert Ferrers, 6th Earl of Derby, as 26th June
1269. The date of birth of her elder son John Ferrers is given as 20th June
1271.
I agree with Douglas' conclusion that Eleanor's petition is misdated in the
National Archives, and that it must be dated to a date after her husband's
death in 1279 and before the attainment by her son John of his majority in 1292
MM

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 20:41:40

On Sep 14, 5:21 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Sep 12, 6:11 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie
dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume, duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in
the rear, at the Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became
Guillaume le Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to
this very day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et
alii -- but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of
your own. Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at
Hastings.
As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any
companions of the Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family
tree. The closest to any Norman I'm likely to get is the
hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack rapist who introduced
the red-hair gene into my bloodline.
But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is some thought, currently, that the red-hair gene (at least in
northern Europe) is linked to Neanderthals.

As is white skin, for that matter...
--
John Briggs- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Although Neanderthals coexisted for thousands of years in Europe with
Homo Sapiens (which was a later immigrant species originally from
Africa), DNA analysis indicates that they didn't breed together. Homo
sapiens outcompeted Neanderthalensis, which eventually died out.

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 14 sep 2007 21:33:39

campofonensis@gmail.com wrote:
On Sep 14, 5:21 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Sep 12, 6:11 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie
dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume, duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in
the rear, at the Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became
Guillaume le Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to
this very day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists,
et alii -- but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October
1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in
Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of
your own. Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at
Hastings.
As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any
companions of the Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family
tree. The closest to any Norman I'm likely to get is the
hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack rapist who introduced
the red-hair gene into my bloodline.
But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is some thought, currently, that the red-hair gene (at least
in northern Europe) is linked to Neanderthals.

As is white skin, for that matter...

Although Neanderthals coexisted for thousands of years in Europe with
Homo Sapiens (which was a later immigrant species originally from
Africa), DNA analysis indicates that they didn't breed together. Homo
sapiens outcompeted Neanderthalensis, which eventually died out.

Where do you think the white skin came from?
--
John Briggs

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 14 sep 2007 21:37:32

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Indeed.

And Top Posting --The Preferred Posting Style Of The Cognoscenti.

DSH

"erilar" <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:drache-7DBCE8.12413114092007@news.airstreamcomm.net...

What we really need around here is sensible cropping of long posts.

And trolls.
--
John Briggs

Doug McDonald

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 14 sep 2007 21:40:06

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
O.K. Doug, let's start at the beginning.

Here are the 25 Magna Carta Sureties:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Charta_Sureties

Surely you can bag more than EIGHT of them.



Of those, it appears to be 8. The only person
listed on Wikipedia that is not listed by Richardson is
William de Fortibus, and it appears I don't descend from him.

Remember that only 17 (Richardson) or 18 (Wikipedia)
have descendants.

I do descend from William Marshall, d. 1219,
by numerous paths.

I'd be surprised, however, if in fact none of Lathom,
Dungan, Fitzhugh, or Weaver had noble ancestors. We
just don't know of them. I've looked with no success,
as have numerous other amateurs and some pros.
These are all New England.

Doug

Andrew Inge Lancaster

RE: Gilbert of Lancaster

Legg inn av Andrew Inge Lancaster » 14 sep 2007 21:54:46

A new note on this. I notice on Google Books that The annals of Kendal By
Cornelia Nicholson mentions "the Kerden's MSS" preserved in Manchester as
another document calling Gilbert "de Furnesio". I guess this might however
be a "tertiary" source. Anyone know this MSS?

The same MSS spelt Kuerden is also discussed on Google Books in History of
the county palatine ... of Lancaster. The biographical department ... By
Edward Baines, William Robert Whatton, which draw the family tree to make
Gilbert look more like a brother-in-law of Ketel, and adds another snippet
I'd never heard when it describes Netherwyresdale, held by William de
Lancaster, as "belonging likewise to the lords of Furness".

Which lords of Furness? There were not many people who could ever lay title
to Furness.

Regards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Lancaster-Boon [mailto:andrew.lancaster@skynet.be] On Behalf Of Andrew
Inge Lancaster
Sent: 14 September 2007 20:51
To: 'paul bulkley'; 'gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com'
Subject: RE: Gilbert of Lancaster


Concerning a, b and c, well, I've not heard that anyone has had success yet.
I presume you realize that Ayloffe wrote some centuries ago. It is therefore
possible he saw records which no longer exist.


-----Original Message-----
From: paul bulkley [mailto:designeconomic@yahoo.com]
Sent: 14 September 2007 18:29
To: gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com
Subject: Gilbert of Lancaster


(a) Gilbert Baron of Kendal appointed Receiver for the
County of Lancaster.
(b) Gilbert being also known as Gilbert de Furnesso.
It would seem very likely because of the Kendal
interests in Furness and adjoining areas.
(c) William 1 as Baron of Lancaster being constituted
"Seneschallus Hospitii Regis", and obtaining the
consent of Parliament to call himself Gilbert of
Lancaster.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 21:58:44

Although Neanderthals coexisted for thousands of years in Europe with
Homo Sapiens (which was a later immigrant species originally from
Africa), DNA analysis indicates that they didn't breed together. Homo
sapiens outcompeted Neanderthalensis, which eventually died out.

Indeed.

Darwinian Selection and Survival of The Fittest.

It's a Great Pity Modern Man has tried so hard to arrest, hamstring and
stymie it.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<campofonensis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189798900.469787.180090@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume, duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in
the rear, at the Battle of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066
-- where he became Guillaume le Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to
this very day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et
alii -- but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of
your own. Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at
Hastings.

D. Spencer Hines
-------------------------------------------

Although Neanderthals coexisted for thousands of years in Europe with
Homo Sapiens (which was a later immigrant species originally from
Africa), DNA analysis indicates that they didn't breed together. Homo
sapiens outcompeted Neanderthalensis, which eventually died out.

Don Stone

Re: Gilbert of Lancaster

Legg inn av Don Stone » 14 sep 2007 22:06:37

paul bulkley wrote:
Finally can someone who understands how to contact the
Web Master of Gen Medieval please advise him that I
have not received any messages from Gen Medieval for
the past two weeks.


Paul,

You can check your subscription status via Password Central at RootsWeb:
http://passwordcentral.rootsweb.com/.

If you are not currently subscribed, you can subscribe. Even without
checking your status, you can send the standard subscribe email; if you
are already subscribed, it will be ignored.

-- Don Stone, GEN-MEDIEVAL co-listowner

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 22:18:44

On Sep 14, 4:33 pm, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
campofonen...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sep 14, 5:21 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Sep 12, 6:11 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie
dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume, duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in
the rear, at the Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became
Guillaume le Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to
this very day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists,
et alii -- but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October
1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in
Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of
your own. Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at
Hastings.
As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any
companions of the Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family
tree. The closest to any Norman I'm likely to get is the
hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack rapist who introduced
the red-hair gene into my bloodline.
But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is some thought, currently, that the red-hair gene (at least
in northern Europe) is linked to Neanderthals.

As is white skin, for that matter...

Although Neanderthals coexisted for thousands of years in Europe with
Homo Sapiens (which was a later immigrant species originally from
Africa), DNA analysis indicates that they didn't breed together. Homo
sapiens outcompeted Neanderthalensis, which eventually died out.

Where do you think the white skin came from?
--
John Briggs- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sunlight is necessary for the synthesis of Vitamin D. As Homo sapiens
migrated into northern localities with less sunshine scientists
believe they evolved (through natural selection) paler skin with less
pigment, allowing more of the sun's rays to penetrate.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 22:18:52

Hmmmmmmm...

Well, do you have descents from Edward IV and have you traced the Uterine
Lines?

I'll have some more names for you.

DSH

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fcerjt$f3i$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

O.K. Doug, let's start at the beginning.

Here are the 25 Magna Carta Sureties:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Charta_Sureties

Surely you can bag more than EIGHT of them.

Of those, it appears to be 8. The only person
listed on Wikipedia that is not listed by Richardson is
William de Fortibus, and it appears I don't descend from him.

Remember that only 17 (Richardson) or 18 (Wikipedia)
have descendants.

I do descend from William Marshall, d. 1219,
by numerous paths.

Good.

I'd be surprised, however, if in fact none of Lathom,
Dungan, Fitzhugh, or Weaver had noble ancestors. We
just don't know of them. I've looked with no success,
as have numerous other amateurs and some pros.
These are all New England.

Doug

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 22:20:57

Thoughtful.

But citation?

DSH

<campofonensis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189804724.863887.127460@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

Sunlight is necessary for the synthesis of Vitamin D. As Homo sapiens
migrated into northern localities with less sunshine scientists
believe they evolved (through natural selection) paler skin with less
pigment, allowing more of the sun's rays to penetrate.

Julius Ward Howe

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Julius Ward Howe » 14 sep 2007 22:24:47

D. "Spencer" Hines <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit:

Although Neanderthals coexisted for thousands of years in Europe with
Homo Sapiens (which was a later immigrant species originally from
Africa), DNA analysis indicates that they didn't breed together. Homo
sapiens outcompeted Neanderthalensis, which eventually died out.

Indeed.

Darwinian Selection and Survival of The Fittest.

It's a Great Pity Modern Man has tried so hard to arrest, hamstring and
stymie it.


Sorry to pique (sp?) you, David, but this policy of arresting natural
selection has helped you to survive this far, so don't knock it.

Julius Ward Howe

John Briggs

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av John Briggs » 14 sep 2007 22:32:26

campofonensis@gmail.com wrote:
On Sep 14, 4:33 pm, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
campofonen...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sep 14, 5:21 am, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Sep 12, 6:11 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie
dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume, duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in
the rear, at the Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became
Guillaume le Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William
The Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds
echoes to this very day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists,
et alii -- but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October
1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in
Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of
your own. Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English
at Hastings.
As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any
companions of the Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family
tree. The closest to any Norman I'm likely to get is the
hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack rapist who
introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.
But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is some thought, currently, that the red-hair gene (at least
in northern Europe) is linked to Neanderthals.

As is white skin, for that matter...

Although Neanderthals coexisted for thousands of years in Europe
with Homo Sapiens (which was a later immigrant species originally
from Africa), DNA analysis indicates that they didn't breed
together. Homo sapiens outcompeted Neanderthalensis, which
eventually died out.

Where do you think the white skin came from?

Sunlight is necessary for the synthesis of Vitamin D. As Homo sapiens
migrated into northern localities with less sunshine scientists
believe they evolved (through natural selection) paler skin with less
pigment, allowing more of the sun's rays to penetrate.

Quite so - but the time since our ancestors left Africa isn't long enough
for this to have occurred. The Neanderthals, on the other hand, had been
living there for half a million years - which is ample time.
--
John Briggs

Doug McDonald

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 14 sep 2007 22:37:11

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Hmmmmmmm...

Well, do you have descents from Edward IV


No. As to Royals, Robert III and Edward III are it.


and have you traced the Uterine
Lines?

I've tried to, especially for the non-royal lines
Dungan, Lathom, Fitzhugh and Weaver, with no success.
The Rose/Grant lines have dead-end female lines that
all end in prototypical North Scottish names that
look unpromising for getting into England. This leaves
the Ironmonger female deads ends. These are more promising,
running through well known English names like Goring, Goddard,
Radmyll, Camoys, Poynings, Grey, de Courtenay, le Despencer
Carreu, Fitzpayn, Percy, and Clifford.


But no OBVIOUS connections through those names.

I'm currently working on Fitzpayn, which is most promising.

Doug

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 sep 2007 22:45:09

On Sep 14, 5:20 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Thoughtful.

But citation?

DSH

campofonen...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1189804724.863887.127460@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...



Sunlight is necessary for the synthesis of Vitamin D. As Homo sapiens
migrated into northern localities with less sunshine scientists
believe they evolved (through natural selection) paler skin with less
pigment, allowing more of the sun's rays to penetrate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Googlesearch "Vitamin D" "white skin". Then click on http://www.washingtonpost.com
link article "Scientists find a DNA change that accounts for white
skin". (by Rick Weiss, Dec.16, 2005).

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Magna Carta Sureties, Et Alii ... Was Hastings

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 14 sep 2007 23:15:34

O.K.

Robert III of Scotland was at least kicked by a horse and not a mule.

How about descents from other late Lancasters and Yorkists?

DSH

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fceuut$gem$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Hmmmmmmm...

Well, do you have descents from Edward IV

No. As to Royals, Robert III and Edward III are it.

and have you traced the Uterine Lines?

I've tried to, especially for the non-royal lines
Dungan, Lathom, Fitzhugh and Weaver, with no success.
The Rose/Grant lines have dead-end female lines that
all end in prototypical North Scottish names that
look unpromising for getting into England. This leaves
the Ironmonger female deads ends. These are more promising,
running through well known English names like Goring, Goddard,
Radmyll, Camoys, Poynings, Grey, de Courtenay, le Despencer
Carreu, Fitzpayn, Percy, and Clifford.


But no OBVIOUS connections through those names.

I'm currently working on Fitzpayn, which is most promising.

Doug

WJhonson

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 sep 2007 23:32:14

<<In a message dated 09/14/07 13:40:26 Pacific Standard Time, john.briggs4@ntlworld.com writes:
What we really need around here is sensible cropping of long posts.

And trolls. >>
---------------------
There's quite enough cow offal around here without having troll guts all over the postings as well.

WJhonson

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 14 sep 2007 23:34:19

<<In a message dated 09/14/07 12:45:16 Pacific Standard Time, campofonensis@gmail.com writes:
DNA analysis indicates that they didn't breed together. Homo
sapiens outcompeted Neanderthalensis, which eventually died out. >>
--------------------
Do we have then dozens of DNA samples from Neanderthals to make this claim scientific? Or is this just more of the taking-what-scientists-say-and-making-it-extreme that we keep seeing?

taf

Re: Gilbert of Lancaster

Legg inn av taf » 14 sep 2007 23:57:44

On Sep 14, 2:06 pm, Don Stone <d...@donstonetech.com> wrote:
paul bulkley wrote:
Finally can someone who understands how to contact the
Web Master of Gen Medieval please advise him that I
have not received any messages from Gen Medieval for
the past two weeks.

You can check your subscription status via Password Central at RootsWeb:http://passwordcentral.rootsweb.com/.

If you are not currently subscribed, you can subscribe. Even without
checking your status, you can send the standard subscribe email; if you
are already subscribed, it will be ignored.


Let me also turn Paul into one of those people who understands how to
contact the Listowners.

Send all communications with the listowners to:

GEN-MEDIEVAL-L-request@RootsWeb.com

We alternate duties, and this will get it to the right person.

taf

WJhonson

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 15 sep 2007 00:13:39

<<In a message dated 09/14/07 07:45:29 Pacific Standard Time, paulvheath@gmail.com writes:
Cunobelinos was King of the Catulvellauni, from about 10 to about 40
AD. >>

--------------------
Am I right in thinking this was Shakespeare's Cymbeline aka Kymbelinus ?

If so, he is also mentioned by Geoffrey, but as a different person. He states in particular that this Kymbelinus was "brought up by Augustus Caesar" which at least allows us a chronological peg at this point in his narrative.

He gives the father of this Kymbelinus as Tenuantis (aka Tasciovan), Duke of Cornwall and later King of all Britain, who must have lived per my framework from say 90/70 BC until at leat 50 BC

The father of this Tasciovan being King Lud

The son of Kymbelinus is given as Arviragus who fought against Claudius' armies [which occurred in 43 AD]. This Arviragus is given there as marrying Claudius daughter, named Genuissa.

This is fable by the way, but I'm interested only to see if the chronology can hold together. This Genuissa has to be the daughter of Valeria Messalina. I do not have a source describing *exactly* when Claudius married Valeria and hopefully someone has a very good primary source for this, as plenty of secondary sources can't seem to agree.

We do know it must have been sometime between 31 AD and 40 AD. Valeria was stabbed to death, on the orders of Claudius in 48AD. So we have a pretty narrow window for Genuissa's birth which is good.

Their son is given as Marius, King of Britain the father of Coillus "brought up at Rome" (probably as a hostage?)

Marius is the father of "Old King Cole" aka Coillus or Coel who is mentioned at stirnet here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/ancie ... .htm#link1
Cole appears to alternatively be given a mother of "Penardun" ? this might be an error in my database, its possible Penardun is a male, but given a father of "Bran of Siluria" which following Paul Heath should be rendered Bran of the Silures aka Bron the Blessed which I suppose implies that he comes from the Mabigonian although I haven't yet read it to see what it does or doesn't say to support this.

This Bran or Bron is that same one that many people have as married to Anna "of Arimathea" which started this whole thing, but also given as a daughter of James the Bishop of Jerusalem, brother to Jesus.

ALL OF THIS IS FABLE. Just thought I'd throw that in. It's going to prove impossible to co-relate ALL the legends together, but at least we can discuss whether any one of them even works by itself at all.

An alternate mother to Coillus "Cole" is given as "Julia of the Iceni" on stirnet supposed there to be a daughter of Boedicea "Queen of Britons" by Prasutagus, King of the Iceni.

Boedicea BTW is one person who Geoffrey never even alludes to much less mentions by name.

Will Johnson

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