Blount-Ayala

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Séimí mac Liam

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 11 sep 2007 18:53:45

Kay Allen <allenk@pacbell.net> wrote in
news:mailman.2161.1189531636.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com:

You fellows seem to take it in stride in the various
testosterone-laden
rants which seem to occur on this list with
unfortuante frequency. But let a woman call you to
task and you seem to take unusually extreme umbrage.


So take me to task for my telling Ray O'Hara that his assessment of
polygamy in the early church was bullshit. Do you think the reason some
members of the early church practiced polygamy was because of an over-
abundance of Mormon women? That was the only thing I had said in this
thread before you called me 'butt ignorant' is that your idea of reasoned
debate? And yet you seem to expect only politeness and reasoned debate
in reply.
And by-the-way you have made one contradictory
statement. Privately, you said that there was no list
owner, and in this post you admit there is one.

What I said in private e-mail is this:

"I am not a member of the 'list' and the newgroup is unowned and
unmoderated.
Tood is a nice man but he doesn't run usenet or soc.genealogy.medieval."

Clearly you have a reading comprehension problem.



--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 11 sep 2007 18:56:05

Kay Allen <allenk@pacbell.net> wrote in
news:mailman.2161.1189531636.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com:

I
have apologized both publically and privately.

Are you man enough to do the same and take
responsibility for your part?


Show me where you have apologised for calling me butt ignorant, either
privately or publically. As I said in e-mail...Apres Vous.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 sep 2007 19:11:02

In a message dated 9/11/2007 8:15:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:

So far I've never been hit directly, but only glancing blows.
Even then it once knocked me down into the prairie grass, thankfully.
These are very small deer, of course; we don't have big ones around here.


--------
One time I was hit by a midget deer as well.
It was a stuffed midget deer being wielded by the Queen Mother.
I said she was pudgy and had no style and she took offense.
Imagine!



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

taf

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av taf » 11 sep 2007 19:26:45

On Sep 11, 9:50 am, "Séimí mac Liam" <gwyd...@comcast.nospam.net>
wrote:

You could to two things to limit the problem: Name the individual in
question

Look who started this thread - the same person who started the thread
on Diana, Princess of Wales, on Politics in Washington, DC, and on and
on and on. Anyhow, the problem here is with everyone who has been
arguing religion. Basically everyone in this thread.

and limit the feed to the list to not include usenet posts
crossposted to more than, say, three groups.

We have looked into this, but it is not a priority for those at
Ancestry who have responsibility for the list-hosting software.
Basically, as much as it would improve the atmosphere, it is not going
to happen.

You could also as list-
owner of the list, explain to the subscribers how to use the list and the
differences between usenet and listservers.

Yes, perhaps time for this again.


I apologise for missing the
crosspost to soc.genealogy.medieval in my reply to Ray O'Hara psted from
alt.history.british, had a caught it, I would have left SGM off the
distribution. That said, the major infamer of this thread was your list
member, Kay Allen, who jumped in with both feet and hit the ground
running, insulting all and sundry, by and large with out cause as both I
and Mr. Johnson were taking O'Hara to task for his assesment of the
causes of polygamy in the early church.

In this case, the problem was two fold. First, Mr. Hines posted
something expressly intended to be politically inflammatory. It ended
up being theologically inflammatory as well. He continues to try to
excuse his indefensible behavior based on bizarre self-serving
justification, but he basically has no respect for topicality in any
of the groups to which he posts. The second problem was that list
participants took up the discussion and started (and some continue)
squabbling with each other over something that has nothing whatsoever
to do with medieval genealogy. We can't stop a self-centered
malcontent from making his inflammatory crossposts and we can't stop
the other people from other groups that he leads into our community,
but we can (and must if we value having this group) avoid allowing
ourselves to make matters worse.

taf

Kay Allen

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 11 sep 2007 19:28:03

Prithee good sire, slime mcSlimey, thou speakest as
serpant with forked tongue. You post this list under a
preposterous pseudonym, without facing up with the
courage of your convictions.

Thou posteth me in private. And it seems you speaketh
out of both sides of digestive oriface.

I didn' just jump in with two feet. You and Will
Johnson had made scurrilous remarks before I even
entered the fray. And you kept on making them.
Academic speech is one thing. Hate speech is quite
another. So, it seems to me that you were imflaming,
before I ever came on the scene. Please note that the
word you were trying for was inflamer, not infamer.
And calling someone butt ignorant seems to be a common
place on this list; but Mormon Tarbaby is a first. And
not particularly original.

So I maintain that you are not nearly so innocent as
you would like to paint yourself, with paint brushes
dangling from both sides of your toothy oriface. I
have apologized both publically and privately.

Are you man enough to do the same and take
responsibility for your part?

You fellows seem to take it in stride in the various
testosterone-laden
rants which seem to occur on this list with
unfortuante frequency. But let a woman call you to
task and you seem to take unusually extreme umbrage.

And by-the-way you have made one contradictory
statement. Privately, you said that there was no list
owner, and in this post you admit there is one.

I have tried to retire from this senseless
"discussion". I hope every one else involved will
have the courage and the sense to do like-wise.

Kay Allen AG


--- Séimí mac Liam <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:

taf <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in
news:


You could to two things to limit the problem: Name
the individual in
question and limit the feed to the list to not
include usenet posts
crossposted to more than, say, three groups. You
could also as list-
owner of the list, explain to the subscribers how to
use the list and the
differences between usenet and listservers. I
apologise for missing the
crosspost to soc.genealogy.medieval in my reply to
Ray O'Hara psted from
alt.history.british, had a caught it, I would have
left SGM off the
distribution. That said, the major infamer of this
thread was your list
member, Kay Allen, who jumped in with both feet and
hit the ground
running, insulting all and sundry, by and large with
out cause as both I
and Mr. Johnson were taking O'Hara to task for his
assesment of the
causes of polygamy in the early church.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email
to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word
'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message

James C. Woodard

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av James C. Woodard » 11 sep 2007 19:34:11

taf <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in
news:1189535205.602011.138380@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

On Sep 11, 9:50 am, "Séimí mac Liam" <gwyd...@comcast.nospam.net
wrote:

You could to two things to limit the problem: Name the individual in
question

Look who started this thread - the same person who started the thread
on Diana, Princess of Wales, on Politics in Washington, DC, and on and
on and on. Anyhow, the problem here is with everyone who has been
arguing religion. Basically everyone in this thread.

and limit the feed to the list to not include usenet posts
crossposted to more than, say, three groups.

We have looked into this, but it is not a priority for those at
Ancestry who have responsibility for the list-hosting software.
Basically, as much as it would improve the atmosphere, it is not going
to happen.

You could also as list-
owner of the list, explain to the subscribers how to use the list and
the differences between usenet and listservers.

Yes, perhaps time for this again.


I apologise for missing the
crosspost to soc.genealogy.medieval in my reply to Ray O'Hara psted
from alt.history.british, had a caught it, I would have left SGM off
the distribution. That said, the major infamer of this thread was
your list member, Kay Allen, who jumped in with both feet and hit the
ground running, insulting all and sundry, by and large with out cause
as both I and Mr. Johnson were taking O'Hara to task for his
assesment of the causes of polygamy in the early church.

In this case, the problem was two fold. First, Mr. Hines posted
something expressly intended to be politically inflammatory. It ended
up being theologically inflammatory as well. He continues to try to
excuse his indefensible behavior based on bizarre self-serving
justification, but he basically has no respect for topicality in any
of the groups to which he posts. The second problem was that list
participants took up the discussion and started (and some continue)
squabbling with each other over something that has nothing whatsoever
to do with medieval genealogy. We can't stop a self-centered
malcontent from making his inflammatory crossposts and we can't stop
the other people from other groups that he leads into our community,
but we can (and must if we value having this group) avoid allowing
ourselves to make matters worse.

taf



Thank you for you time in replying.







--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
gwyddon@comcast.net

aka

Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 11 sep 2007 19:41:33

We have also FREELY discussed the Ancestry and Mediaeval Ancestry of
American Presidential candidates in these newsgroups -- the ancestry of
people such as Governor Howard Dean and Senator John Kerry quite recently in
fact -- as well as that of President George Walker Bush.

So, that's ANOTHER Good Reason why Governor Mitt Romney's Mormon Ancestry
and possible Mediaeval Ancestry and History are perfectly ON-TOPIC for these
groups.

Again, no one is FORCING anyone to read anything they do not WISH to read.

Folks have complete Freedom Of Choice to ignore or delete posts in which
they have little or no interest.

I am decidedly PRO CHOICE in these matters.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 sep 2007 19:53:03

In a message dated 9/11/2007 10:45:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

Small boys are very imaginative and can work out ingenious solutions to such
recondite problems. You should hire or acquire one.


------------
I see issues with this.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 11 sep 2007 20:04:12

You sorely misjudge me and my intentions, sir.

DSH

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99A86F9E45193Sim@216.196.97.136...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:_sBFi.8$H_5.222@eagle.america.net:

We have also FREELY discussed the Ancestry and Mediaeval Ancestry of
American Presidential candidates in these newsgroups -- the ancestry
of people such as Governor Howard Dean and Senator John Kerry quite
recently in fact -- as well as that of President George Walker Bush.

So, that's ANOTHER Good Reason why Governor Mitt Romney's Mormon
Ancestry and possible Mediaeval Ancestry and History are perfectly
ON-TOPIC for these groups.

Again, no one is FORCING anyone to read anything they do not WISH to
read.

Folks have complete Freedom Of Choice to ignore or delete posts in
which they have little or no interest.

I am decidedly PRO CHOICE in these matters.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

I'll bet you even managed to keep a straight face when you wrote this.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

taf

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP ...

Legg inn av taf » 11 sep 2007 20:06:35

On Sep 11, 10:27 am, "Séimí mac Liam" <gwyd...@comcast.nospam.net>
wrote:
Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltay...@earthlink.net> wrote innews:nathanieltaylor-DD0048.13183111092007@earthlink.vsrv-
sjc.supernews.net:





In article <Xns99A859DE64ACE...@216.196.97.136>,
"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyd...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:

... the major infamer of this thread was your list
member, Kay Allen, who jumped in with both feet and hit the ground
running, insulting all and sundry...

The real 'major infamer' of this thread (Freudian slip, perhaps) is the
person who made the original post, which had no business being made
here
in the first place. The disingenuous, inflammatory, off-topic post was
intended as nothing more than a seed pearl--an irritant to the forums
to
which it was (cross)posted.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Agreed, but with this caveat: It has been traditional on this group to
work up genealogies of potential Presidents in the past and to that
extent, even though off topic, such has in the past been acceptable.


It has been tolerated, but you are right, it is off-topic, and this
has been pointed out from time to time. The last thing we need is a
net-nanny commenting on the appropriateness of every single post, and
as these prove rather harmless, so not much has been made of them.
That being said, these discussions have usually been about the
ancestry as traced to the period this group covers. Tracing a
presidential candidate to the mid-19th century in no way qualifies,
particularly when it is done with a clear although unstated intention
of focusing attention on contemporary American politics.

That, by the way, is the dirty underbelly of the behavior in question.
As the election approaches, there will be repeated attempts to divert
this group into discussions of current politics. It happens every
election (American, Brit, and even Ausie). As you have demonstrated,
each such discussion can be viewed as a precedent, justifying more of
the type, and the result will be a cesspool. This is, to a degree, how
each group develops its character, what they talk about and what they
don't, but if I want to see partisan bickering there are plenty of
places I can go for it. Instead I go here for medieval genealogy, and
would very much regret it if this group went the way of some of the
others, which are 95% garbage and 5% on-topic material. If anyone
values this group, then the urge to discuss such topics should be
resisted.

taf

WJhonson

Re: King's Kinsfolk: Bishop Edmund Stafford, kinsman of King

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 sep 2007 22:00:10

But I agree with TAF that you fishing for a relationship is begging the question.

And that in some cases you hypothesize that there must be a certain specific relationship to fill in a gap in order to make your rule still work.

It's very much a Settipani way of linking people up based on onomastics without regard for other issues like politics and geography. It is, far more likely, IMHO, that it's your rule of thumb that is badly in need of a splint, rather than the family trees.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 sep 2007 22:09:35

Attacking this from a new direction, I note DR has stated that the 1351 fine, which he quotes from an 18th century work where the author there has translated (or quoted) "cousins and heirs" of William de Campville and Audrey his wife.

Laying aside for the moment that the fines are probably extant, in Latin, in the stacks at Salt Lake for one, DR states that William and Audrey can be "readily identified as the lineal ancestors...."

I don't have such an identification, and my quick sources don't seem to either. Perhaps DR can point out what source identifies this particular couple as such ancestors ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 sep 2007 22:53:04

In a message dated 09/11/07 14:49:35 Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870 writes:
Philip, King of the
Romans by Irene Komnenos, daughter of Emperor Isaakios II
-------------------------
Why is she Komnenos and not Angelica ?
I thought her father was called Isaac Angelos as opposed to Isaac Komnenos.
And that it was this Isaac's wife who was supposed to be Komnena, daughter of Andronikos the Emperor who was murdered in 1185

Will

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 sep 2007 23:00:00

William, 2nd Lord Camville (who died shortly before 27 Jul 1338 per CP "Camville") had five daughters and co-heirs as CP has it.

However in one posting it was stated that his daughter Eleanor married Richard de Penris. CP has this daughter unmarried and cites the IPM simply calling her Eleanor with no husband and no alternate surname to indicate she might be a widow of anybody.

Since Eleanor was the second daughter, she had to be at least in her late 20s if not possibly as old as her 40s at this time.

It would be useful were the person with the Penris proof to supply it.

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 sep 2007 23:05:36

<<In a message dated 09/10/07 22:45:11 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Vernon, Vernon quartering Avenell, and Durversal of Spencer -
Pembrugge - Stackpole - Vernon impaling a blank shield - and Vernon
with a canton gules.

There are no Camville arms mentioned as being found at this early
Vernon tomb. >>

---------------------------
Unless you can show exactly who this Sir John Vernon d 1477 is supposed to fit into the Vernon family you're detailing, what arms his tomb shows isn't relevant. There are many Vernons who we do not yet know where they fit exactly (from primary sources), and the reconstructions of historians who had only partial information really doesn't help the situation.

In this particular case, it seems reasonable to connect Sir John to that Richard de Vernon d 1452 Speaker of the House as his mother was Benedicta Pembrugge, a known heiress.

Will

WJhonson

Fwd: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 sep 2007 23:22:48

In a message dated 09/11/07 15:18:44 Pacific Standard Time, WJhonson writes:
<<In a message dated 09/11/07 13:25:48 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
In 1260, for example,
I find that Maud de Camville's great-grandmother, Lucy, widow of
William de Camville (died 1260), sued her son, Geoffrey de Camville,
for dower in the manor and advowson of Clifton-Campville,
Staffordshire [Reference: Colls. Hist. Staffs. 4 (1883): 134-147].>>

--------------------------
This would be more interesting were it to cite back to the actual primary source material. I would not wish anyone to rely on Collins for this level of exactitude, esp as we know that "1260" is pregnant for errors, being also the year William died.

It could very well be that the suit is undated and should rightly say merely "after 1260" for all we know.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Gregory of Tours

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 sep 2007 23:27:05

<<In a message dated 09/11/07 00:39:16 Pacific Standard Time, christopheringham@comcast.net writes:
Only hypothetically, I believe, through Arnulf, bishop of Metz. See
the threads from 2004, "Munderic Lord of Vitry," and 2005, "My
Merovingian Line." >>

------------------------
I think you've answered my question upside-down.
What I was wondering is *not* about the Merovingian kings.

I'm stating that the "History of the Franks" by Gregory of Tours, gives HIS (that is Gregory's) family tree. Not the tree of the kings, which it also gives but so do a thousand web pages.

I'm interested to know about the descents to modern-times if any for Gregory's family, not the Merovingians.

Thanks
Will Johnson

Dantemortem

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av Dantemortem » 11 sep 2007 23:40:44

There is another descent to Edward III's wife, and one to Henry VII

Vladimir Monomakh m. Gytha
I
Mstislav II
I
Euphrosyne m. Geza II of Hungary
I
Bela III
I
Andras II

Bela IV

Istvan V

Maria of Hungary = Charles II of Naples

Marguerite of Anjou=Charles III of Valois

Jeanne of Valois=Wm III of Avesnes

Philippa of Hainault=Edward III



Vladimir Monomakh m. Gytha
I
Mstislav II
I
Euphrosyne m. Geza II of Hungary
I
Bela III
I
Andras II

Bela IV

Istvan V

Maria of Hungary = Charles II of Naples

Marguerite of Anjou=Charles III of Valois

Philip VI of Valois

John II of Valois

Charles V

Charles VI

Catherine of Valois = Owen Tudor

Edmund Tudor

Henry VII


On 9/11/07, D. Spencer Hines <panther@excelsior.com> wrote:
Good Question...

I tend to seriously doubt it.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Tim" <A.Windemere@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189539722.296406.314090@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...

On Sep 11, 1:58 pm, Don Aitken <don-ait...@freeuk.com> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:42:55 -0700, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 9, 2:26 am, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 9, 1:02 am, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sep 9, 12:32 am, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:

Harold Godwinson was defeated and killed at the Battle of
Hastings
by
the forces of William the Conqueror but he is nevertheless an
ancestor
of the British royal family (as well as most other European
royal
families). Here is one descent:

King Harold Godwinson, father of:
Gytha, mother of:
Grand Prince Mstislav the Great of Kiev, father of:
Ingebora of Kiev, mother of:
King Valdemar I of Denmark, father of:
King Valdemar II of Denmark, father of:
King Eric IV of Denmark, father of:
Queen-Consort Sofia of Sweden, mother of:
Princess Ingeborg Folkunga of Sweden, mother of:
Gerhard IV, Count of Holstein, father of:
Ingeborg, Countess of Holstein, mother of:
Christian V, Count of Oldenburg, father of:
Dietrich von Oldenburg, father of:
King Christian I of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick I of Denmark, father of:
King Christian III of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick II of Denmark, father of:
King Christian IV of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick III of Denmark, father of:
King Christian V of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick IV of Denmark, father of:
King Christian VI of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick V of Denmark, father of:
Prince Frederick of Denmark, father of:
Princess Louise Charlotte of Denmark, mother of:
Princess Louise Caroline of Hesse-Cassel, mother of:
King Christian IX of Denmark, father of:
Queen-Consort Alexandra of Great Britain, mother of:
King George V of Great Britain, from whom the present British
royal
family descends.

Sorry, there's a mistake in my previous post. Princess (later
Queen-
Consort) Louise Caroline was the wife (not mother) of King
Christian
IX of Denmark, and they were the parents of Princess Alexandra
(later
Queen-Consort of Great Britain) the mother of King George V.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The husband of Harold II's daughter Gytha was Vladimir II Monomakh,
Grand Prince of Kiev. Vladimir's mother was Anastasia, daughter of
the
Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX Monomachos. So the Windsors also
have
a descent from a Byzantine Emperor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I recently became aware that there is a much earlier descent in the
English royal family from Harold II. Edward III's mother, Isabella of
France, has a descent from Harold II that is posted elsewhere on the
internet. If anyone is aware of the details of this descent and could
post it in this forum I imagine that it would be of interest.

Vladimir Monomakh m. Gytha
I
Mstislav II
I
Euphrosyne m. Geza II of Hungary
I
Bela III
I
Andras II
I
St. Elizabeth m. Ludwig IV of Thuringia
I
Sophie m. Henri II of Brabant
I
Henri III
I
Marie m. Philippe III of France
I
Philippe IV
I
Isabelle

--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the above information. I wonder if Edward III was aware
of his descent from Harold

M. O'Connor



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 sep 2007 23:50:10

<<In a message dated 09/11/07 15:30:27 Pacific Standard Time, PIPPHILLIPS18 writes:
Anne, the so-called sister of Jesus, came to Rome with a party of
Christians led by Joseph of Arimathea at the time of the first
persecution of the Jerusalem Church in AD 36 where according to legend
she met and married the British prince Belus, the son of the British
ex-king Dubnovellus [who was himself an exile in Rome], who eventually
returned to Britain with her and had issue. This Belus (c. AD 35/50)
is not to be confused with his ancestor Beli Mawr, who sacked Rome in
386BC in the "First Celtic Storm". See the "Beli & Anne Pedigree" in
Bartrum's "Early Genealogical Tracts".

pip phillips

The above is not legend but rather fantasy. Perhaps anyone at all listening would care to try to find any of this related in any credible history book modern or ancient.

Will

Gjest

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 sep 2007 23:51:02

Dear Don Aitken,
Your first pedigree appears correct based on
Charles Evans` article on The Counts of Oldenburg published in TAG many years
ago. The Thuringian pedigree however you put forth is slighly in error, Henry
II, Duke of Brabant was twice married. His 1st wife and Henry III, Duke of
Brabant`s mother was Maria of Hohenstaufen, daughter of Philip, King of the
Romans by Irene Komnenos, daughter of Emperor Isaakios II of Byzantium and his
1st wife NN ( whom I sometimes wonder if she were actually his consort at all).
Henry II of Brabant`s 2nd wife Sophia of Thuringia was the mother of his
son Henry I, Landgrave of Hesse.
Sophia `s Hungarian ancestry is shared down
to Andrew II , King of Hungary with Edward III`s Queen Philippa of Hainault,
both descended through his 1st wife Gertrude of Meran, then it`s St Elizabeth`s
brother King Bela IV of Hungary with Maria, daughter of Nicaean Emperor
Theodore I Laskaris, Bela`s son Stephen V, King of Hungary by Elizabeth of the
Kumans, then Stephen`s daughter Mary married Charles II of Naples , their
daughter Margaret of Naples married Charles, Count of Valois , their daughter Jeanne
of Valois married William III, Count of Holland and Hainault, and one of
their daughters was Queen Philippa. See Genealogics.org, Also Heraldry of the
Royal Families of Europe by Mac Lagan and Louda) in especial Tables 107-108
(Brabant), Table 113 (Holy Roman Empire), Table 65 (France), Table 2 (England
Plantagenets), Table 89 (Hungary).
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA




************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Don Stone

Re: Descent From Edward III For Dowsabel Burton, heiress of

Legg inn av Don Stone » 12 sep 2007 00:08:48

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Dear Brad,
King Edward I`s 2nd wife Margaret of France was likewise
descended by way of the Brabantine lineage from Byzantine rulers and King Harold
II of England.

Yes, she has descents from Byzantine rulers but not, I think, from
Harold II of England.

-- Don Stone

WJhonson

Re: Descent From Edward III For Dowsabel Burton, heiress of

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 sep 2007 00:33:14

<<In a message dated 09/11/07 16:10:26 Pacific Standard Time, A.Windemere@gmail.com writes:
Just incidentally, Edward III's mother, Isabella of France, was
descended from the Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX Monomachus. .... So anyone descended from Edward III also has descents from
Byzantium, as well as from King Harold II.

Blithely side-stepping the problematic descent from Constantine ?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Descent From Edward III For Dowsabel Burton, heiress of

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 00:52:04

Dear Brad,
King Edward I`s 2nd wife Margaret of France was likewise
descended by way of the Brabantine lineage from Byzantine rulers and King Harold
II of England. Further, She descended as follows from Count Eustace II of
Boulogne, one of William I, King of England`s companions.

1 Eustace II, Count of Boulogne married Ida of
Lorraine
2 Eustace III, Count of Boulogne married Mary,
daughter of Malcolm III, King of Scots
3 Maud of Boulogne, Queen of England married
Stephen , King of England 1135- 1154
4 Mary of England married Matthew of Alsace, Count
of Boulogne
5 Maud of Alsace and Boulogne married Henry I, Duke
of Brabant
6 Henry II, Duke of Brabant married 1st Maria of
Hohenstaufen
7 Henry III, Duke of Brabant married Adelaide of
Burgundy, daughter of Duke Hugh IV
8 Marie of Brabant married as 2nd wife Philip III,
King of France
9 Margaret of France married as 2nd wife, Edward I,
King of England

(See Genealogics.org)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Dantemortem

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av Dantemortem » 12 sep 2007 01:03:07

There's another line through Yolande of Hungary to Isabella of
Castille=Edmund of Langley, ancestor of Edward IV and Richard III and Henry
VIII.





On 9/11/07, Dantemortem <dantemortem@gmail.com> wrote:
There is another descent to Edward III's wife, and one to Henry VII

Vladimir Monomakh m. Gytha
I
Mstislav II
I
Euphrosyne m. Geza II of Hungary
I
Bela III
I
Andras II

Bela IV

Istvan V

Maria of Hungary = Charles II of Naples

Marguerite of Anjou=Charles III of Valois

Jeanne of Valois=Wm III of Avesnes

Philippa of Hainault=Edward III



Vladimir Monomakh m. Gytha
I
Mstislav II
I
Euphrosyne m. Geza II of Hungary
I
Bela III
I
Andras II

Bela IV

Istvan V

Maria of Hungary = Charles II of Naples

Marguerite of Anjou=Charles III of Valois

Philip VI of Valois

John II of Valois

Charles V

Charles VI

Catherine of Valois = Owen Tudor

Edmund Tudor

Henry VII


On 9/11/07, D. Spencer Hines <panther@excelsior.com> wrote:

Good Question...

I tend to seriously doubt it.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Tim" <A.Windemere@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189539722.296406.314090@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com ...

On Sep 11, 1:58 pm, Don Aitken <don-ait...@freeuk.com> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:42:55 -0700, Tim < A.Windem...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Sep 9, 2:26 am, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 9, 1:02 am, Tim < A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sep 9, 12:32 am, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:

Harold Godwinson was defeated and killed at the Battle of
Hastings
by
the forces of William the Conqueror but he is nevertheless an
ancestor
of the British royal family (as well as most other European
royal
families). Here is one descent:

King Harold Godwinson, father of:
Gytha, mother of:
Grand Prince Mstislav the Great of Kiev, father of:
Ingebora of Kiev, mother of:
King Valdemar I of Denmark, father of:
King Valdemar II of Denmark, father of:
King Eric IV of Denmark, father of:
Queen-Consort Sofia of Sweden, mother of:
Princess Ingeborg Folkunga of Sweden, mother of:
Gerhard IV, Count of Holstein, father of:
Ingeborg, Countess of Holstein, mother of:
Christian V, Count of Oldenburg, father of:
Dietrich von Oldenburg, father of:
King Christian I of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick I of Denmark, father of:
King Christian III of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick II of Denmark, father of:
King Christian IV of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick III of Denmark, father of:
King Christian V of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick IV of Denmark, father of:
King Christian VI of Denmark, father of:
King Frederick V of Denmark, father of:
Prince Frederick of Denmark, father of:
Princess Louise Charlotte of Denmark, mother of:
Princess Louise Caroline of Hesse-Cassel, mother of:
King Christian IX of Denmark, father of:
Queen-Consort Alexandra of Great Britain, mother of:
King George V of Great Britain, from whom the present British
royal
family descends.

Sorry, there's a mistake in my previous post. Princess (later
Queen-
Consort) Louise Caroline was the wife (not mother) of King
Christian
IX of Denmark, and they were the parents of Princess Alexandra
(later
Queen-Consort of Great Britain) the mother of King George V.-
Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The husband of Harold II's daughter Gytha was Vladimir II
Monomakh,
Grand Prince of Kiev. Vladimir's mother was Anastasia, daughter of
the
Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX Monomachos. So the Windsors also
have
a descent from a Byzantine Emperor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I recently became aware that there is a much earlier descent in the
English royal family from Harold II. Edward III's mother, Isabella
of
France, has a descent from Harold II that is posted elsewhere on the
internet. If anyone is aware of the details of this descent and
could
post it in this forum I imagine that it would be of interest.

Vladimir Monomakh m. Gytha
I
Mstislav II
I
Euphrosyne m. Geza II of Hungary
I
Bela III
I
Andras II
I
St. Elizabeth m. Ludwig IV of Thuringia
I
Sophie m. Henri II of Brabant
I
Henri III
I
Marie m. Philippe III of France
I
Philippe IV
I
Isabelle

--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute " clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the above information. I wonder if Edward III was aware
of his descent from Harold

M. O'Connor



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



Kay Allen

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 12 sep 2007 01:32:02

Douglas,

I believe that Durvassal is of Spernor, not of
Spencer.

K
--- Douglas Richardson <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:

Dear Newsgroup ~

I just checked the book, Notes on the Churches of
Derbyshire, by J.
Charles Cox, Volume 2, published in 1877. On pages
19-20, there is a
discussion of the tomb of a certain Sir John Vernon
who died in 1477.
According to the author, the following arms were
visible at this tomb
in 1611:

Vernon, Vernon quartering Avenell, and Durversal of
Spencer -
Pembrugge - Stackpole - Vernon impaling a blank
shield - and Vernon
with a canton gules.

There are no Camville arms mentioned as being found
at this early
Vernon tomb.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City,
Utah


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email
to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word
'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 01:34:02

Dear Will,
Because I goofed. Eirene Angela was the wife of Phillip,
King of the Romans.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 02:18:03

Dear Don Aitchen,
1 Harold II, King of England killed 1066 by
his mistress Eadgyth Swan-neck
2 Gytha (natural daughter) married Vladimir II
Monomachus, Duke of Kief
3 Mstislav I , Duke of Kief (baptized as
Harold) married 2nd daughter of Dimitri Zavidovic of Novgorod
4 Euphrosyna of Kief married Geza II, King of
Hungary
5 Bela III, King of Hungary married Agnes de
Chatillon
6 Andrew II, King of Hungary married 2nd
Yolande, daughter of Peter II de Courtenay. lLatin Emperor
7 Yolande of Hungary married 2nd James I the
Conqueror, King of Aragon
8 Isabella of Aragon married (his 1st wife)
Philip III, King of France
9 Philip IV, King of France married Joan I,
Queen of Navarre (daughter of King Henry I and Blanche of Artois, later wife of
Edmund, Earl of Lancaster and mother of his children)
10 Isabel of France married Edward II, King of
England
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

taf

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av taf » 12 sep 2007 03:09:23

On Sep 11, 5:15 pm, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Don Aitchen,
1 Harold II, King of England killed 1066 by
his mistress Eadgyth Swan-neck
2 Gytha (natural daughter) married Vladimir II
Monomachus, Duke of Kief
3 Mstislav I , Duke of Kief (baptized as
Harold) married 2nd daughter of Dimitri Zavidovic of Novgorod

Perhaps it should be mentioned that there are those who think western
genealogists have been too generous in accepting this connection -
that the documentation for it is somewhat late and "wishful
thinking". I cannot comment on this, being unfamiliar with the
primary record.

taf

John Watson

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av John Watson » 12 sep 2007 04:26:50

On Sep 12, 8:15 am, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Don Aitchen,
1 Harold II, King of England killed 1066 by
his mistress Eadgyth Swan-neck

Fancy that? I always thought it was an arrow that killed him.

Regards,

John

WJhonson

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 sep 2007 04:33:17

<<In a message dated 09/11/07 20:30:29 Pacific Standard Time, WatsonJohnM@gmail.com writes:
On Sep 12, 8:15 am, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Don Aitchen,
1 Harold II, King of England killed 1066 by
his mistress Eadgyth Swan-neck

Fancy that? I always thought it was an arrow that killed him.

Regards, John >>

----------------------------
Yeah but she reached over, when no one was looking, and gave it a good twist.

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 sep 2007 05:53:16

http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/view ... gskw=&cr=1

Calls her "Benedicta" sister and heiress of Sir Fulk PEMBRUGE, Knt of Tonge Castle
So you can take your snotty response and stick it back up your nose.
Or you can post what your source is for calling her Ludlow :)
Have a nice day

Gjest

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 05:54:00

On Sep 10, 8:28 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 09/10/07 20:25:32 Pacific Standard Time, lostcoo...@yahoo.com writes:
On Sep 10, 8:14 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

Faith based on mythology has no business in historical studies.
If you can't study the history of your own religion impartially, then you shouldn't comment on those who can.

And, anyway, ALL religions are based on mythology.

-------------------------------------
Setting that aside for the moment. I have nothing against LDS any more than any other religion. What we're discussing however is the history of the religion, not its *current* religious views.

Well, actually, the original post was suggesting that Romney should be
ashamed of having had polygamous ancestors.

WJhonson

Re: Fwd: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 sep 2007 05:54:49

<<In a message dated 09/11/07 21:50:15 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
You might want to check the extensive bibliography in either
Plantagenet Ancestry (2004) or Magna Carta Ancestry (2005) for Colls.
Hist. Staffs. >>

----------------
Oh Lordy. So we can again spend a week of spinning wheels only to discover that the fact stated is not actually from *any* of the cited sources?

I think not.

Gjest

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 06:00:47

On Sep 10, 8:37 pm, Kay Allen <all...@pacbell.net> wrote:
Maybe to a UC Berkeley liberal anthropologist!

You can have your lack of faith and I can have my
faith, and that doesn't make either of us the better
for it; just different.

K



- Show quoted text -

Actually, in my clumsy way, that was my point. I was defending your
right to believe whatever you choose and not have to defend that to
anyone. That, by the way, is a world view that was developed over a
lifetime of "UC Berkeley liberal anthropologist" identity - to respect
your vision no matter how it differs from mine.

Tony Ingham

Re: children of Richard, 1st Baron Rich

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 12 sep 2007 06:15:44

Will,

Richard Lord Ryche left the bulk of his estate 'to Sir Robert [2nd Lord
Ryche] and his heirs male, with successive remainders to me [the
testator] and my heirs male and to Richard my base son and his heirs
male, and for default the remainder to Edward Ryche of
Horndon-on-the-Hill and his heirs male.'

Edward Riche esquire, in his will made 30 Apr 1599, left his messuage
called Salmons in Horndon-on-the-Hill to his son and heir Robert.

1553 Feet of Fines for Essex Vol. V. p.36.
Michaelmas term. 1 Mary. CP25(2)/70/577 No. 7.
Edward Ryche, esquire, pl.
Thomas Mathew and wife Emma and John Thressher and wife Joan, def.
A messuage called Salmons', 40 acres arable, 5 acres meadow, 4 acres
pasture and 1 acre wood in Horndon 'upon the Hyll'. Consideration £80.

Edward mentioned not only his Essex property, but also a 'messuage in
St. Andrew Undershaft in the city of London, and all other lands wherein
Joan my wife hath any estate in jointure ; and after her decease to him
[Robert the son] and his heirs male'

Extract from I.P.M., dated 14 Aug 1552, on George Armerer, citizen and
brewer of London.
'Before the death of the said George Armerer, Edward Ryche of Hornden
on the Hill in co. Essex, gent, and Joan his wife, daughter and heir of
Edward Saunders, citizen and leatherseller of London, deceased, were
seised of the stable with the loft built over it, late in the tenure of
John Shelley, situate in Longlane in the parish of St. Sepulchre without
Newgate, in the suburbs of London.
(The Index Library, by British Record Society - 1901) ex Google Book Search

Joan the daughter of Edward Saunders leatherseller of London married
Edward Ryche abt 24 Nov 1541 in St. Mildred Poultry with St. Mary
Colechurch London (I.G.I.)

Edward Riche, gentleman, was the son and heir of Thomas Riche and his
wife Rachel Newborough. The description of the property below shows an
undeniable link between Isabel, late the wife of John Rych and Edward
Riche son and heir of Thomas Riche. This Edward is extremely likely to
the same Edward as the Edward on Horndon-on-the-Hill

Historical gazetteer of London before the Great Fire: Cheapside;
parishes of All Hallows Honey Lane, St Martin Pomary, St Mary le Bow, St
Mary Colechurch and St Pancras Soper Lane (1987), pp. 252-55.
St. Mary le Bow 104/12.
The tenements had been granted, probably by the king, to Dartford
Priory by 1371, when the prioress surrendered to the Crown lands
including 6, and a tenement in London formerly of Robert de Bourton and
John de Legyton, executors of Robert de Hanwode late citizen and
merchant. These lands were subsequently re-granted to the priory. In
1397 and 1398 the rector of St. Mary le Bow complained of intrusion
against the prioress of Dartford in the parish of St. Mary le Bow,
probably for disseisin of the 13s. 4d. rent. The names of the priory's
tenants are not known. In 1458 the king licensed the priory, in
consideration of its poverty and expenses, to grant 12, described as a
messuage in the parish of St. Mary le Bow, between 11 to the S. and E.,
13 and the churchyard to the N., and the tenements of Thomas Beaumont
and Robert Gayton (in Bread Street) to the W., to Isabel, late the wife
of John Rych, and to Thomas Urswyk, Richard Ryche, John Pulter, John
Alburgh, and William Duraunt and anyone else. The sale, for a sum of
money applied to the relief of grievous charges, was made and confirmed
in 1459. (PRO, E40/5280; Cal Close R 1369-74, p. 344; Cal Pat R 1370-4,
pp. 162-3; HCP 122, m. 5d; HPL 122, m. 13d; HPL 123, m. 3; Cal Pat R
1452-61, p. 463; Cal Close R 1454-61, pp. 393-4.)
Sixteenth and seventeenth centuries
It seems probable that 12 remained with the Riche family from the mid
15th century to the mid 16th century. In 1541 James Strilley of
Nottingham, gentleman, and his wife Rachel, widow of Thomas Riche,
gentleman, leased their messuage or tenement with cellars, solars,
warehouses and yard adjoining, in Bow churchyard in the parish of St.
Mary le Bow to George Robynson, citizen and mercer, for 40 years at £8
rent. The lessors covenanted to repair, maintain, pave and cleanse
during the term if Rachel should live so long, and the lessee agreed to
pay all quit-rents. In 1543 James Strilley and Rachel, with Edward
Riche, gentleman, son and heir of the said Thomas Riche, granted and
quitclaimed to Anthony Marker (? recte Marler), citizen and haberdasher,
in their messuage in Bow churchyard, in which Marker lived. The grant
was secured by a recovery made by Anthony Marler against George Ellyot,
mercer, and William Carkett, scrivener, who called James Strylley,
Rachel, and Edward Riche to warrant. In 1550 the tenement of Anthony
Marler, haberdasher, in Bow churchyard lay to the E. of 2 tenements in
Bread Street. (HR 243(46, 120); HPL 179, m. 56; Salters' Company, MS
H1/2/1/20.)

John Riche, mercer of London (d. 1458), eldest son of Richard Riche,
mercer of London (d.1464) and his wife Isabell Pulter had three sons:
Richard
Thomas, mercer of London, was living 10 Apr 1505 when he was
co-executor of the will of Thomas Marowe sergeant at law. Thomas married
Margaret daughter of Edmund Shaa, knight, mercer and mayor of London.
John

The upshot of all this is that Edward of Horndon-on-the-Hill was the
closest male relative then living (apart from his immediate family) when
Richard Lord Ryche made his will. This then begs the question as to
whether Richard was descended from the same family.

Tony Ingham



WJhonson wrote:
Richard, 1st Baron Rich has a DNB article which lists children and also lists its own sources. They mention two legitimate sons and one illegitimate one, but no Edward.

Will

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 sep 2007 06:16:08

Yes I've since discovered that this is in CP III which is online courtesy of my ancestry subscription and so I've now copied out what it states.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 06:17:54

Dead Wrong...

And demonstrates a total lack of even Junior-High School Reading
Comprehension Competency...

As well as low intelligence and primitive information processing skills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1189572840.725475.13460@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Well, actually, the original post was suggesting that Romney should be
ashamed of having had polygamous ancestors.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 06:31:09

Dead Wrong...

And demonstrates a total lack of even Junior-High-School Reading
Comprehension Competency...

As well as low intelligence and primitive information processing skills.

The poster needs to reread the initial post in this thread several time --
the entire post -- and try not to blot his copybook or fornicate with the
pooch again.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1189572840.725475.13460@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Well, actually, the original post was suggesting that Romney should be
ashamed of having had polygamous ancestors.

Gjest

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 06:44:49

Isn't it a bugaboo of the Mormon church that Joseph Smith indeed had
multiple wives and that his first, primary wife more than once wanted
to leave him over it?

I've personally seen the fecal matter cast from both sides...

Judy


On Sep 10, 7:43 pm, Kay Allen <all...@pacbell.net> wrote:
That assertion a a pile of male bovine fecal matter. I
think you have confused Joseph Smith with Warren Jeffs
of the Fundamentalist LDS Church.

Why don't you read some histories of the LDS Church
written by the people who lived it. Then you might
have a more realistic view from their side of the
story?

Kay Allen AG

--- WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 09/10/07 12:41:13 Pacific
Standard Time, mary.palmu...@rcn.com writes:
and what relevence does that have. we all know the
history of the mormons.
the main reason for polygamy was the fact that the
early mormons had many
more women than men.

------------------------
I dispute this theory.

I believe the main reason was that Joseph Smith had
a position of divine authority and a hankering to go
after the young women.

It's a theme that is repeated over thousands of
years don't ya know.
Nothing new here.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email
to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word
'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 sep 2007 07:01:04

<<In a message dated 09/11/07 22:45:19 Pacific Standard Time, katheryn.swynford@gmail.com writes:
Isn't it a bugaboo of the Mormon church that Joseph Smith indeed had
multiple wives and that his first, primary wife more than once wanted
to leave him over it? >>

-----------------
Most of, if not all of, Joseph Smith's first family stayed when Brigham Young took the rest to Utah. They had their own church, not affilitiated with the Salt Lake, and wonder of all, plural marriage was never part of it.

They held that plural marriage was never a divinely given rule.

I think the Salt Lakers would like very much if that part of the history were ignored.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 07:39:01

Recte:

Dead Wrong...

And demonstrates a total lack of even Junior-High-School Reading
Comprehension Competency...

As well as low intelligence and primitive information processing skills.

The poster needs to reread the initial post in this thread several times --
the entire post -- and try not to blot his copybook or fornicate with the
pooch again.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1189572840.725475.13460@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Well, actually, the original post was suggesting that Romney should be
ashamed of having had polygamous ancestors.

Robert O'Connor

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av Robert O'Connor » 12 sep 2007 08:00:25

snip

">>> St. Elizabeth m. Ludwig IV of Thuringia
I
Sophie m. Henri II of Brabant
I

snip

according to Weis 'Ancestral Roots' this line breaks here as Henry III of
Brabant is shown as the son of Henry II's first wife Marie of Swabia?

Henri III
I
Marie m. Philippe III of France
I
Philippe IV
I
Isabelle

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 12 sep 2007 10:33:10

WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in
news:mailman.2197.1189576851.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com:

I think the Salt Lakers would like very much if that part of the
history were ignored.


As well as the Mountain Meadow Massacre, led by my great-great-great
grandfather. If you've any doubt as to how much they don't want to deal
with that one, try to find some place showing the recent movie about it
called 'September Dawn' which was mentioned by Kay Allen as an example of
distorted anti-Mormon propaganda. I hope to see it in Seattle this week-
end. That's the nearest theatre to Portland showing the film.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Gjest

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 16:23:03

In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:35:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net writes:

As well as the Mountain Meadow Massacre, led by my great-great-great
grandfather.


-----------
It probably didn't help that all or most of the Mountain Meadow group were
Arkansans. The same state where Parley Pratt was murdered. Of course it was
also the same state where the Federal judge pardoned him, but hey why
quibble./



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 16:24:02

In a message dated 9/12/2007 12:45:20 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

A caveat though Will- look at the DNB entry for Richard Vernon,


Thanks I'll take a look at this later today.
Will



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Matthew Connolly

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av Matthew Connolly » 12 sep 2007 16:26:59

On Sep 12, 4:13 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/12/2007 12:45:20 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

mvernonconno...@yahoo.co.uk writes:

A caveat though Will- look at the DNB entry for Richard Vernon,

Thanks I'll take a look at this later today.
Will


I really meant the bit about the other account being 'genealogically
worthless'- but in fact the article in the old DNB has the same
errors, and is best avoided! Go for the HoP biography (if possible)
for a good start.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 16:56:47

Isaac Haight, William Dame, John Higbee or John Lee?

Please tell us the Rest of the Story.

Of course the 150th Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was
yesterday, September 11th.

Then we'll trace the Mediaeval Ancestors of Romney.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2203.1189606861.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:35:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net writes:

As well as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, led by my great-great-great
grandfather.

-----------
It probably didn't help that all or most of the Mountain Meadow group were
Arkansans. The same state where Parley Pratt was murdered. Of course it
was also the same state where the Federal judge pardoned him, but hey why
quibble.

Gjest

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 17:37:02

Well now that's dropping the other shoe isn't it?

Hopefully HoP supports its contentions with some firm references, citing
primary material.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Democrats Already Dismissing Petraeus Report

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 18:16:40

General Petraeus also holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University's Woodrow
Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

This is one smart cookie.

He made those Democrat Cut & Run Senators look like fools at yesterday's
hearings.

Barbara Boxer was so frightened of him she ran out the clock so he couldn't
even respond to her hysterical tirade and hand-wringing episode.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult
--------------------------------------------

An older summary, when he was a three-star:

Lieutenant General David H. Petraeus assumed command of the U.S. Army
Combined Arms Center and Fort Leavenworth on October 20th, 2005 following
deployment in Iraq as the first commander of the Multi-National Security
Transition Command – Iraq, which he led from June 2004 to September 2005,
and the NATO Training Mission - Iraq, which he commanded from October 2004
to September 2005.

Prior to that deployment, he commanded the 101st Airborne Division (Air
Assault), leading the "Screaming Eagles" in combat during the first year of
Operation Iraqi Freedom.

His command of the 101st followed a year deployed on Operation Joint Forge
in Bosnia, where he was the Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations of the
NATO Stabilization Force and the Deputy Commander of the US Joint
Interagency Counter-Terrorism Task Force – Bosnia.

Prior to his tour in Bosnia, he spent two years at Fort Bragg, North
Carolina, serving first as the Assistant Division Commander for Operations
of the 82nd Airborne Division and then as the Chief of Staff of XVIII
Airborne Corps.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was commissioned in the Infantry upon graduation
from the United States Military Academy in 1974.

He has held leadership positions in airborne, mechanized, and air assault
infantry units in Europe, the Middle East, and the United States, including
command of a battalion in the 101st Airborne Division and a brigade in the
82nd Airborne Division.

In addition, he has held a number of staff assignments: Aide to the Chief of
Staff of the Army; service as a battalion, brigade, and division operations
officer; Military Assistant to the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe; Chief
of Operations of the United Nations Force in Haiti; and Executive Assistant
to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was the General George C. Marshall Award winner
as the top graduate of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College Class
of 1983.

He subsequently earned MPA and Ph.D. degrees in international relations from
Princeton University’s Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International
Affairs, and later served as an Assistant Professor of International
Relations at the US Military Academy.

He also completed a fellowship at Georgetown University.

Awards and decorations earned by Lieutenant General Petraeus include the
Defense Distinguished Service Medal, the Distinguished Service Medal, two
awards of the Defense Superior Service Medal, four awards of the Legion of
Merit, the Bronze Star Medal with "V" device, the State Department Superior
Honor Award, and the Gold Award of the Iraqi Order of the Date Palm.

He is a Master Parachutist and Air Assault and Ranger qualified. He has also
earned the Combat Action Badge and French, British, and German Jump Wings.

LTG Petraeus and his wife have two children, a son and a daughter.

Gjest

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 18:36:02

In a message dated 9/12/2007 9:30:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHILLIPS18@aol.com writes:

you are not very well read, are you?; or at least have never research
this subject


--------------------------
I tend to stay away from connections based on fantasy, conspiracy theories
and lizards.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 12 sep 2007 18:39:27

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:H%TFi.33$H_5.145@eagle.america.net:

Isaac Haight, William Dame, John Higbee or John Lee?

Please tell us the Rest of the Story.

Of course the 150th Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was
yesterday, September 11th.

Then we'll trace the Mediaeval Ancestors of Romney.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2203.1189606861.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:35:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net writes:

As well as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, led by my
great-great-great grandfather.

-----------
It probably didn't help that all or most of the Mountain Meadow group
were Arkansans. The same state where Parley Pratt was murdered. Of
course it was also the same state where the Federal judge pardoned
him, but hey why quibble.




The one of those four convicted and executed.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

mcclurera@verizon.net

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av mcclurera@verizon.net » 12 sep 2007 18:47:02

On Sep 11, 1:49 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Dear Kay,

The LDS folks allegedly take their guidance on polygamy from Biblical and
Mediaeval Practice in various cultures and they are VERY interested in
Mediaeval Genealogy -- for several reasons.

Many Mormons spend lots of time connecting to their Mediaeval Ancestors and
trying to work out the Genealogical Connections.

So, this is CERTAINLY on-topic for SGM as well as SHM, ATR and AHB.

Please tell those of us who are NOT bigoted about the Church Of LDS what you
think.

Aloha,

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Kay Allen" <all...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:mailman.2147.1189486513.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...



Dear DSH,

Thank you for the invitation, but this is definitely
OT. Nothing would be solved. And I am tired of
dealing with an opinionated bigot. or is that an
oxymoron. Or maybe just moron.

Good night all.

K

--- "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Tell us about the LDS Church, Kay -- the Real Story.

DSH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would consider it an honor to respond (respectfully). Salvation
concerns everyone so therefore it would be appropriate. I'm a convert
and consider it part of my salvation to serve it the rest of my life.
You must do a lot of research at the Family History Centers so you
must have heard the message. I know another eminent genealogist who
won't take the plunge too! This is fun.

Bob
Florida

Douglas Richardson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av Douglas Richardson » 12 sep 2007 18:55:28

On Sep 12, 11:25 am, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/12/2007 9:50:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

royalances...@msn.com writes:

My source for Sir Richard Vernon and Bennet Ludlow is Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005) by Douglas Richardson, pp. 862-864.

------
Hilarious....

************************************** See what's new athttp://www.aol.com

You're quite welcome, Will.

DR

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 12 sep 2007 19:04:46

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:H%TFi.33$H_5.145@eagle.america.net:

Isaac Haight, William Dame, John Higbee or John Lee?

Please tell us the Rest of the Story.

Of course the 150th Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was
yesterday, September 11th.

Then we'll trace the Mediaeval Ancestors of Romney.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2203.1189606861.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:35:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net writes:

As well as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, led by my
great-great-great grandfather.

-----------
It probably didn't help that all or most of the Mountain Meadow group
were Arkansans. The same state where Parley Pratt was murdered. Of
course it was also the same state where the Federal judge pardoned
him, but hey why quibble.




To make this topical for SGM I have the following line for John Doyle
Lee's first wife:

1 Thomas Wolsey, Cardinal b: March 4, 1470/71 St. Nicholas,
Ipswich, Suffolk, England d: November 29, 1530 in Leicester,
England
+Joan Larke b: Abt. 1490 m: in England
2 William Wulsi b: 1512 d: October 16, 1557
3 George Wolsey b: Abt. 1537
+Unknown Woolsey
4 Rev. Benjamin Wolsey b: Oxford, Suffolk, England
+Unknown Hook b: Abt. 1586
5 George Joris Wolsey "The Settler" b: October 27, 1610 Great
Yarmouth, Norfolk, England d: August 17, 1698 in Flushing,
Queens, NY
+Rebecca Cornell b: January 31, 1628/29 Saffron Waldon,
Essex, England d: February 5, 1712/13 in Jamaica, Queens, NY
m: December 9, 1647 in Dutch Church,Brooklyn, Kings, NY
6 Thomas Wolsey b: April 10, 1655 (Near) Flushing, Queens, NY
d: in Westchester County, NY
+Ruth Bailey b: Queens County, NY m: January 11,
1683/84 in Queens County, NY
7 Richard Wolsey b: Jamaica, Queens, NY d: April 21, 1777 in
New Bedford, Dutchess, NY
+Sarah Fowler b: Flushing, Queens, NY d: in Westchester
County, NY m: January 24, 1717/18 in Queens County, NY
8 Rev. Thomas Woolsey b: Bedford, Westchester, NY
+Sarah Pierce b: Abt. 1730 Bedford, Westchester, NY d: Aft.
1794 m: Abt. 1750 in Westchester County, NY
9 Richard Woolsey b: Bedford, Westchester, NY d: in Pulaski
County, KY
+Nancy Plumstead b: Abt. 1745 Bedford, Westchester, NY
m: in Danville, Boyle, KY
10 Joseph Woolsey b: Danville, Boyle, KY
+Schaeffer (Shaffer)Abagail b: September 13, 1786 Kentucky
d: September 3, 1848 in Crossing Of Sweetwater (On The Plains)
11 Agatha Ann Woolsey b: January 18, 1814 Danville, Boyle, KY
d: June 4, 1866 in New Harmony, Washington, UT
+John Doyle Lee b: September 6, 1812 Kaskaskia, Illinois d:
March 23, 1877 in Utah m: July 24, 1833 in Vandalia(?),
Illinois

The problem I have with this is that generations 2 and 3 appear to me to
be fabricated.
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Normandy

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Normandy » 12 sep 2007 19:10:41

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
H%TFi.33$H_5.145@eagle.america.net...
Isaac Haight, William Dame, John Higbee or John Lee?

Please tell us the Rest of the Story.

Of course the 150th Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was
yesterday, September 11th.

Then we'll trace the Mediaeval Ancestors of Romney.

DSH

You cannot even trace your own without outrageous inventions how are you

going to trace theirs? How are you related to 'Cousin' Diana, Princess of
Wales and 'Cousin' William, future King of the UK and 'Cousin' Harry.

Normandy

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 19:12:35

John Lee...

Fascinating!

So he was your 3rd Great-Grandfather?

Executed by firing squad no less.

Please tell us about your read on the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99A9623D98F29Sim@216.196.97.136...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:H%TFi.33$H_5.145@eagle.america.net:

Isaac Haight, William Dame, John Higbee or John Lee?

Please tell us the Rest of the Story.

Of course the 150th Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was
yesterday, September 11th.

Then we'll trace the Mediaeval Ancestors of Romney.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2203.1189606861.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:35:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net writes:

As well as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, led by my
great-great-great grandfather.

-----------
It probably didn't help that all or most of the Mountain Meadow group
were Arkansans. The same state where Parley Pratt was murdered. Of
course it was also the same state where the Federal judge pardoned
him, but hey why quibble.

The one of those four convicted and executed.

William Black

Re: Democrats Already Dismissing Petraeus Report

Legg inn av William Black » 12 sep 2007 19:20:01

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:OaVFi.34$H_5.215@eagle.america.net...
General Petraeus also holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University's Woodrow
Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

This is one smart cookie.

He made those Democrat Cut & Run Senators look like fools at yesterday's
hearings.

Barbara Boxer was so frightened of him she ran out the clock so he
couldn't even respond to her hysterical tirade and hand-wringing episode.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult
--------------------------------------------

An older summary, when he was a three-star:

Lieutenant General David H. Petraeus assumed command of the U.S. Army
Combined Arms Center and Fort Leavenworth on October 20th, 2005 following
deployment in Iraq as the first commander of the Multi-National Security
Transition Command - Iraq, which he led from June 2004 to September 2005,
and the NATO Training Mission - Iraq, which he commanded from October 2004
to September 2005.

Prior to that deployment, he commanded the 101st Airborne Division (Air
Assault), leading the "Screaming Eagles" in combat during the first year
of
Operation Iraqi Freedom.

His command of the 101st followed a year deployed on Operation Joint Forge
in Bosnia, where he was the Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations of the
NATO Stabilization Force and the Deputy Commander of the US Joint
Interagency Counter-Terrorism Task Force - Bosnia.

Prior to his tour in Bosnia, he spent two years at Fort Bragg, North
Carolina, serving first as the Assistant Division Commander for Operations
of the 82nd Airborne Division and then as the Chief of Staff of XVIII
Airborne Corps.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was commissioned in the Infantry upon
graduation
from the United States Military Academy in 1974.

He has held leadership positions in airborne, mechanized, and air assault
infantry units in Europe, the Middle East, and the United States,
including
command of a battalion in the 101st Airborne Division and a brigade in the
82nd Airborne Division.

In addition, he has held a number of staff assignments: Aide to the Chief
of
Staff of the Army; service as a battalion, brigade, and division
operations
officer; Military Assistant to the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe;
Chief
of Operations of the United Nations Force in Haiti; and Executive
Assistant
to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was the General George C. Marshall Award
winner
as the top graduate of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College
Class
of 1983.

He subsequently earned MPA and Ph.D. degrees in international relations
from
Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International
Affairs, and later served as an Assistant Professor of International
Relations at the US Military Academy.

He also completed a fellowship at Georgetown University.

Awards and decorations earned by Lieutenant General Petraeus include the
Defense Distinguished Service Medal, the Distinguished Service Medal, two
awards of the Defense Superior Service Medal, four awards of the Legion of
Merit, the Bronze Star Medal with "V" device, the State Department
Superior
Honor Award, and the Gold Award of the Iraqi Order of the Date Palm.

He is a Master Parachutist and Air Assault and Ranger qualified. He has
also
earned the Combat Action Badge and French, British, and German Jump Wings.

LTG Petraeus and his wife have two children, a son and a daughter.


But, in the words of Napoleon:

"Is he lucky?"

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Gjest

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 19:27:03

In a message dated 9/12/2007 9:50:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

My source for Sir Richard Vernon and Bennet Ludlow is Magna Carta
Ancestry (2005) by Douglas Richardson, pp. 862-864.


------
Hilarious....



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 12 sep 2007 19:34:29

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in news:h9WFi.35$H_5.242
@eagle.america.net:

John Lee...

Fascinating!

So he was your 3rd Great-Grandfather?

Executed by firing squad no less.

Please tell us about your read on the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99A9623D98F29Sim@216.196.97.136...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:H%TFi.33$H_5.145@eagle.america.net:

Isaac Haight, William Dame, John Higbee or John Lee?

Please tell us the Rest of the Story.

Of course the 150th Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was
yesterday, September 11th.

Then we'll trace the Mediaeval Ancestors of Romney.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2203.1189606861.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:35:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net writes:

As well as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, led by my
great-great-great grandfather.

-----------
It probably didn't help that all or most of the Mountain Meadow
group
were Arkansans. The same state where Parley Pratt was murdered. Of
course it was also the same state where the Federal judge pardoned
him, but hey why quibble.

The one of those four convicted and executed.



My read is based almost entirely on John D's diary. That may be biased
but at least it is first hand.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 12 sep 2007 20:02:37

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in
news:Xns99A96B92746AFSim@216.196.97.136:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in news:h9WFi.35$H_
5.242
@eagle.america.net:

John Lee...

Fascinating!

So he was your 3rd Great-Grandfather?

Executed by firing squad no less.

Please tell us about your read on the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99A9623D98F29Sim@216.196.97.136...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:H%TFi.33$H_5.145@eagle.america.net:

Isaac Haight, William Dame, John Higbee or John Lee?

Please tell us the Rest of the Story.

Of course the 150th Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was
yesterday, September 11th.

Then we'll trace the Mediaeval Ancestors of Romney.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2203.1189606861.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:35:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net writes:

As well as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, led by my
great-great-great grandfather.

-----------
It probably didn't help that all or most of the Mountain Meadow
group
were Arkansans. The same state where Parley Pratt was murdered.
Of
course it was also the same state where the Federal judge pardoned
him, but hey why quibble.

The one of those four convicted and executed.



My read is based almost entirely on John D's diary. That may be biased
but at least it is first hand.


BTW, for thos interested, it can be found here:
http://www.antimormon.8m.com/leeindex.html Read and judge for yourself.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 20:02:38

We have also FREELY discussed the Ancestry and Mediaeval Ancestry of
American Presidential candidates in these newsgroups -- the ancestry of
people such as Governor Howard Dean and Senator John Kerry quite recently in
fact -- as well as that of President George Walker Bush.

So, that's ANOTHER Good Reason why Governor Mitt Romney's Mormon Ancestry
and possible Mediaeval Ancestry and History are perfectly ON-TOPIC for these
groups.

Again, no one is FORCING anyone to read anything they do not WISH to read.

Folks have complete Freedom Of Choice to ignore or delete posts in which
they have little or no interest.

I am decidedly PRO CHOICE in these matters.

I'm not a Net-Nanny-In-Chief who is also an advocate of Censorship and
Exclusion, such as Todd A. Farmerie, AKA "taf".

I believe in Outreach, a Welcoming Policy of Inclusion rather than
Exclusion, and Tolerance for all Points of View in the Global Market of
Ideas.

But if someone is talking through his hat or is all hat and no cattle, I'll
make sure he is exposed as a Fraud, a Liar and a Charlatan -- as I've
already done with Pogue Gans, "The Highlander" and "Normandy".

'Nuff Said.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

Dies Irae

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Sholem Aleichem

D. Spencer Hines

Re: French President, A Hungarian Nobleman

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 20:07:49

But of course...

He's also a Stalwart -- NOT a wimp and a wuss such as his predecessor,
Jacques The Weasel.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<edespalais@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:1189623613.325972.233550@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

On 12 sep, 20:33, "edespal...@yahoo.fr" <edespal...@yahoo.fr> wrote:

Friday in Budapest!

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070912/t ... 4b3_1.html

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 20:11:07

But we're interested in what YOU think.

DSH

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99A97057111A5Sim@216.196.97.136...

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in
news:Xns99A96B92746AFSim@216.196.97.136:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in news:h9WFi.35$H_
5.242
@eagle.america.net:

John Lee...

Fascinating!

So he was your 3rd Great-Grandfather?

Executed by firing squad no less.

Please tell us about your read on the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99A9623D98F29Sim@216.196.97.136...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:H%TFi.33$H_5.145@eagle.america.net:

Isaac Haight, William Dame, John Higbee or John Lee?

Please tell us the Rest of the Story.

Of course the 150th Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was
yesterday, September 11th.

Then we'll trace the Mediaeval Ancestors of Romney.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2203.1189606861.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:35:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net writes:

As well as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, led by my
great-great-great grandfather.

-----------
It probably didn't help that all or most of the Mountain Meadow
group were Arkansans. The same state where Parley Pratt was
murdered.

Of course it was also the same state where the Federal judge
pardoned him, but hey why quibble.

The one of those four convicted and executed.

My read is based almost entirely on John D's diary. That may be biased
but at least it is first hand.


BTW, for thos interested, it can be found here:
http://www.antimormon.8m.com/leeindex.html Read and judge for yourself.

Séimí mac Liam

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Séimí mac Liam » 12 sep 2007 20:14:50

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:yRWFi.38$H_5.312@eagle.america.net:

But we're interested in what YOU think.

DSH

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99A97057111A5Sim@216.196.97.136...

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in
news:Xns99A96B92746AFSim@216.196.97.136:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in news:h9WFi.35$H_
5.242
@eagle.america.net:

John Lee...

Fascinating!

So he was your 3rd Great-Grandfather?

Executed by firing squad no less.

Please tell us about your read on the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99A9623D98F29Sim@216.196.97.136...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:H%TFi.33$H_5.145@eagle.america.net:

Isaac Haight, William Dame, John Higbee or John Lee?

Please tell us the Rest of the Story.

Of course the 150th Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre
was yesterday, September 11th.

Then we'll trace the Mediaeval Ancestors of Romney.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2203.1189606861.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 9/12/2007 2:35:25 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net writes:

As well as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, led by my
great-great-great grandfather.

-----------
It probably didn't help that all or most of the Mountain Meadow
group were Arkansans. The same state where Parley Pratt was
murdered.

Of course it was also the same state where the Federal judge
pardoned him, but hey why quibble.

The one of those four convicted and executed.

My read is based almost entirely on John D's diary. That may be
biased but at least it is first hand.


BTW, for thos interested, it can be found here:
http://www.antimormon.8m.com/leeindex.html Read and judge for
yourself.




I am a far from disinterested source, my family having been subjected to
ill-treatment by the Church for 3 or 4 generations. Stir your own shit
Spencer.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

Normandy

Re: Polygamy Prominent In GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Normandy » 12 sep 2007 20:17:42

"Séimí mac Liam" <gwyddon@comcast.nospam.net> a écrit dans le message de
news: Xns99A9726943EE7Sim@216.196.97.136...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in
news:yRWFi.38$H_5.312@eagle.america.net:

But we're interested in what YOU think.

DSH

ed.

My read is based almost entirely on John D's diary. That may be
biased but at least it is first hand.


BTW, for thos interested, it can be found here:
http://www.antimormon.8m.com/leeindex.html Read and judge for
yourself.




I am a far from disinterested source, my family having been subjected to
ill-treatment by the Church for 3 or 4 generations. Stir your own shit
Spencer.

--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99

You are asking Hines to think? Séimí get real it will not happen.

Normandy
>

Turenne

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Turenne » 12 sep 2007 20:17:46

DSH wrote:

So, that's ANOTHER Good Reason why Governor Mitt Romney's Mormon Ancestry
and possible Mediaeval Ancestry and History are perfectly ON-TOPIC for these
groups.

Pure conjecture. He may be keen on crochet or raise guinea pigs as a
hobby, but I don't see you boring rec.crafts or rec.pets with your
off topic meanderings.

Richard Lichten

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 12 sep 2007 21:03:41

Nonsense...

Polygamy makes for FAR more opportunities for Royal/Noble Ancestry -- and
Descendants.

THINK!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--------------------------------------

"Dag T. Hoelseth" <dagtho@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1189626021.290639.59620@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

On 12 Sep, 21:02, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

We have also FREELY discussed the Ancestry and Mediaeval Ancestry of
American Presidential candidates in these newsgroups -- the ancestry of
people such as Governor Howard Dean and Senator John Kerry quite recently in
fact -- as well as that of President George Walker Bush.

So, that's ANOTHER Good Reason why Governor Mitt Romney's Mormon Ancestry
and possible Mediaeval Ancestry and History are perfectly ON-TOPIC for these
groups.

Again, no one is FORCING anyone to read anything they do not WISH to read.

Folks have complete Freedom Of Choice to ignore or delete posts in which
they have little or no interest.

I am decidedly PRO CHOICE in these matters.

I'm not a Net-Nanny-In-Chief who is also an advocate of Censorship and
Exclusion, such as Todd A. Farmerie, AKA "taf".

I believe in Outreach, a Welcoming Policy of Inclusion rather than
Exclusion, and Tolerance for all Points of View in the Global Market of
Ideas.

But if someone is talking through his hat or is all hat and no cattle, I'll
make sure he is exposed as a Fraud, a Liar and a Charlatan -- as I've
already done with Pogue Gans, "The Highlander" and "Normandy".

'Nuff Said.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

Dies Irae

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Sholem Aleichem

The possible royal or noble ancestry of the current and former
presidents of the USA is surely on topic. I fail to see, however, how
polygamy in presidential candidate Mitt Romney's family tree is of any
relevance to ATR. Please take it elsewhere.

--
Dag T. Hoelseth
http://www.geocities.com/dagtho/royalty.html

Leticia Cluff

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 12 sep 2007 21:27:31

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:52:36 -0700, David <dsalo@softhome.net> wrote:

On Sep 12, 2:02 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

I believe in Outreach, a Welcoming Policy of Inclusion rather than
Exclusion, and Tolerance for all Points of View in the Global Market of
Ideas.

I see you are a Capitalist.

I'm on the other side. I believe in a sparing, minimal use of capital
letters, for the fewest possible functions: to begin a sentence, for
proper names of persons, places, and institutions which conventionally
use them, in titles and publicshed materials, and titles or offices
(e.g. King, President) when referring to a specific holder of the
title.

A capital letter is like a decoration, or a medal; it should only be
worn when deserved, and then only upon the right occasion; and while
every sentence deserves at least one, to pretend to many capitals
which one does not deserve, is like wearing a chestful of store-bought
medals -- it's a species of cheap and vulgar effrontery.

An Excessive and Flagrant Abuse of Capital Letters is an Unsightly Pox
upon an Humble Sentence, and therefore Deserves to be Flogg'd in the
Market-Place, Whipp'd about the Public Square, and Pillory'd in the
Park.

He only does it to annoy people.

Tish

Andrew Inge Lancaster

RE: Gilbert of Lancaster

Legg inn av Andrew Inge Lancaster » 12 sep 2007 21:29:53

Thanks Paul

I have identified the quote you mention on my webpage about this subject
here:
http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/De%20L ... rland.html

It seems to be the earliest source for some ideas which later became
widespread. It is certainly not all right, for example Warin was certainly
the son of William de Lancaster I according to the Cockerand Cartulary.

However it is intriguing. Interesting how it corrects the popular error of
Radcliffe genealogists and says he is "de Furnesio" rather than the
nonsensical "de Frunesco". I presume the latter, which spread all over the
internet, has come from one person's typo and classic internet plagiarism.

Problem is that we don't know the sources. I know of no primary source of
the de Furnesio name for example.

De Furnesio was a surname used by early members of the le Fleming family of
Cumbria.

Best Regards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: paul bulkley [mailto:designeconomic@yahoo.com]
Sent: 11 September 2007 21:56
To: gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com
Subject: Gilbert of Lancaster

There has been much discussion regarding the identity
of Gilbert of Lancaster

Reference to XX1X Introduction Lancashire and Cheshire
Records Part 1 PRO would appear to explain the
Lancaster identity as per a record preserved by
Benjamin Ayloffe as follows:

" When Lancaster Castle was first made a prison; and
Warin the son of Gilbert de Furness was made the
keeper thereof; and the reason for it"

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Camville's daughter, Isabel de Vernon, wife of S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 sep 2007 21:39:48

<<In a message dated 09/12/07 13:20:49 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
You're quite welcome, Will. >>

----------------------------------------------------
Douglas when you get around to actually providing any evidence, we'll be waiting.

wjhonson

Fwd: Anglo-Saxon kings in England

Legg inn av wjhonson » 12 sep 2007 23:10:33

Last year James Cummings (of Dixmont, Maine) posted that : "According
to David Williamson`s "Kings and Queens of Britain" Appendix B Table 2
(pg 213) Hengist, King of Kent abt 455-488 was father of Aesc, King
of Kent abt 488- 512 and a daugher married to Vortigern, King of the
Britons...."

For the last few days, I've been reading and extracting the fanciful
genealogies and associated fractured chronology from Geoffrey of
Monmouth's "British History" and came upon Book VI, Chapter XII
stating "Vortegirn marries Rowen, the daughter of Hengist".

For those of you who like citing the exact sources for exact claims.

I'm not claiming this work is truthful, only that it's citable.

Google Books lazy link
"The British History of Geoffrey of Monmouth: in Twelve Books", by
Geoffrey of Monmouth
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PPA90& ... #PPA120,M1
Book VI Chapter XII

Original post follows.

Will Johnson
----------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jwc1...@aol.com
Date: May 27 2006, 2:34 pm
Subject: Anglo-Saxon kings in England
To: soc.genealogy.medieval


Dear David and others,
According to David Williamson`s
"Kingsand
Queens of Britain " Appendix B Table 2 (pg 213) Hengist, King of Kent
abt
455-488 was father of Aesc, King of Kent abt 488- 512 and a daugher
married to
Vortigern, King of the Britons. Aesc had Octa , King of Kent abt 512-
abt
542, Octa had Eormenric , King of Kent abt 540-abt 560, Eormenric
was the
father of Aethelbert I, King of Kent abt 560-616 who married twice
1st Bertha,daughterof Charibert I, King of Paris, 2nd unknown woman
and Ricula, wife of
Sledda, King of Essex
Aethelbert I, King of Kent was the father of
Eadbald,
King of Kent 616- 640 who married 1st his father`s widow and 2nd
Emma,daughter
of Theodebert II, King of Austrasia and Ethelburga d 647, wife of
Eadwine, King
of Northumbria
Eadbald, King of Kent and his first wife had
Mildred
(Milmade), Abbess of Lyninge, by Emma He had the subking Eormenred who
by wife
Olava had Eormenburga, wife of Merewald, and the Aethelings
Ethelbert and
Ethelred, Eadbald had further Eorconbert, King of Kent 640-664 who
married
Seaxburga,daughterof Anna, King of East Anglica and adaughterSt
Eanwythe,
Abbess of Folkestone.
see prior posts for issue from Eorconbert, King of Kent.
According to The Encyopedia of World History Peter Stearns editor
(2001) (p
170) Table of MerovingianKings
1Clovis I 488-511 married St
Clothild,daughterof
King Gondebaud of Burgundy
2 Clotaire I 511- 561, King of Soissons,
later King
of the Franks m Ingund
3 Sigebert I 561- 575, King of Austrasia
assassinated m Brunhilda,daughterof Athanagild, King of the Visigoths
by his wife
Goiswintha
4 Childebert II 575-595, King of Austrasia,
King of
Burgundy as well from 593 married Faileuba
5 Theodebert II 595-612 King of Austrasia
deposed
and murdeed m Bilchild
6 Emma m Eadbald, King of Kent (note:
Eadbald`s
wife is not identified as adaughterof Theodebert II of Austrasia at
some sites
on the web)
3 Charibert I m Ingoberg
4 Adelberg (also called Bertha) m Ethelbert
I, King
of Kent
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 sep 2007 23:36:03

Dear M O` Connor,
Yes. Weis and several others do say that Maria
of Swabia alias von Hohenstaufen, etc. daughter of Roman King Philip by Eirene
Angela. Philip was a son of Emperor Frederick I "Barbarrosa" and his wife
Beatrix of Burgundy, daughter of the Franche Comte (Free Count) Renaud III of
Burgundy.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

WJhonson

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 12 sep 2007 23:55:14

<<In a message dated 09/12/07 14:55:12 Pacific Standard Time, PIPPHILLIPS18 writes:
On Sep 12, 1:24?pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
?Four brothers and at least two unnamed sisters appear in the Bible,
as well as Joseph of Arimathea, the latter seen in biblical criticism
as a fictional
character invented as a plot device [J. D. Crossan,_Jesus_9 (San
Francisco, 1994), 156-8;_The Oxford Companion to the Bible_(New York,
1993), s.v. "Joseph of Arimathea"].
------------------------------------------------------------------

maybe i am not reading your post right, are you saying that Joseph of
Arimathea was a fictional character ???

pip >>

---------------------
You are reading it correctly. He is citing a work which has (within it, probably a contributor) Crossan stating that Joseph of Arimathea is a fictional plot device.

It's not new that biblical criticism points out things about the Bible that may startle the more conservative Biblicist.

Will

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 01:38:24

No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

WJhonson

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 sep 2007 01:43:56

<<In a message dated 09/12/07 17:30:17 Pacific Standard Time, dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu writes:
This raises a question about which I've often wondered. What did the
inhabitants of that peninsula sticking out of France/Gaul call it, before
the Normans settled upon it? I know Brittany was called Amorica, before the
Britons migrated to it. but I've never heard of a similar predecessor name
for Normandy. >>
------------
Here is a ye olde tyme map with your answer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neustria

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 02:46:54

: )

How about a famous Rabbi, Philosopher or Physician?

Any of those will do nicely.

Sholem Aleichem.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:TD%Fi.84485$lZ7.4112@newsfe20.lga...

No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became
Guillaume le Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et
alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of
the Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to
any Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the
Cossack rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 02:50:37

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fca2ov$dv2$4@reader1.panix.com...
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu
wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et
alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your
own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of
the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the
Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--


I'm aware of all this. I was being more than slightly facetious about the
hypothetical Cossack rapist -- trying to set up the puntchline about my only
documentable connection to The Conqueror, my birthday.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 02:57:15

Well, that will do in a pinch -- your birthday.

Interesting data on the Ashkenazis and red hair.

Do you have a source for this?

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:AH0Gi.317$RB7.283@newsfe14.lga...
"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fca2ov$dv2$4@reader1.panix.com...
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu
wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this
very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et
alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your
own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of
the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the
Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--


I'm aware of all this. I was being more than slightly facetious about the
hypothetical Cossack rapist -- trying to set up the puntchline about my
only documentable connection to The Conqueror, my birthday.

Paul J Gans

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 13 sep 2007 03:19:28

In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Paul J Gans

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 13 sep 2007 03:19:28

In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Paul J Gans

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 13 sep 2007 03:19:28

In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Paul J Gans

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 13 sep 2007 03:19:28

In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

WJhonson

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 sep 2007 04:02:26

Have your computer read to you the history of an area called Neustria.

Will

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 04:03:52

I know they are both considered 'correct,' in English. But, "Ashkenazis"
offends my linguistically sensitive ear; plus, my speech synthesizer makes a
total hash of pronouncing it. <grin>
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:xu1Gi.272267$BX3.92542@newsfe13.lga...
That should be "Ashkenazim", NOT "Ashkenazis," for all you GoyIM. <grin
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:FO0Gi.45$H_5.65@eagle.america.net...
Well, that will do in a pinch -- your birthday.

Interesting data on the Ashkenazis and red hair.

Do you have a source for this?

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:AH0Gi.317$RB7.283@newsfe14.lga...

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fca2ov$dv2$4@reader1.panix.com...
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu
wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume
le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this
very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et
alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your
own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of
the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the
Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--


I'm aware of all this. I was being more than slightly facetious about
the hypothetical Cossack rapist -- trying to set up the puntchline about
my only documentable connection to The Conqueror, my birthday.




WJhonson

Re: Anna of Arimathea - who is HER husband?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 sep 2007 04:03:56

<<In a message dated 09/12/07 19:30:19 Pacific Standard Time, sir_crispin_gaylord@yahoo.co.uk writes:
What if someone two thousand years hence knowing only this thread were
to say that Crossan is a plot device? >>

--------------
He'd be ecstatic that he is still remembered at all.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 04:13:36

O.K.

You said:

I'm aware of all this.

And I took you at your word -- that "all" meant all. : )

Cheers,

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:wJ1Gi.84493$lZ7.70656@newsfe20.lga...

That was Paul's(?) contribution, not mine - about the two strains of
red-hairedness. I wasn't aware of the distinction, if genuine.

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:eF1Gi.48$H_5.242@eagle.america.net...

Oh, I'm well aware of that -- but both versions are "correct" in English.

I'm not writing Hebrew.

How about the source referred to below?

Cheers,

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:xu1Gi.272267$BX3.92542@newsfe13.lga...

That should be "Ashkenazim", NOT "Ashkenazis," for all you GoyIM. <grin

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:FO0Gi.45$H_5.65@eagle.america.net...

Well, that will do in a pinch -- your birthday.

Interesting data on the Ashkenazis and red hair.

Do you have a source for this?

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:AH0Gi.317$RB7.283@newsfe14.lga...

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fca2ov$dv2$4@reader1.panix.com...
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu
wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at
the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume
le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this
very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et
alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of
your
own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions
of
the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to
any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the
Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

I'm aware of all this. I was being more than slightly facetious about
the hypothetical Cossack rapist -- trying to set up the puntchline
about
my only documentable connection to The Conqueror, my birthday.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 04:14:57

Fair Enough.

Stay Safe...

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:fM1Gi.84494$lZ7.57114@newsfe20.lga...

I know they are both considered 'correct,' in English. But, "Ashkenazis"
offends my linguistically sensitive ear; plus, my speech synthesizer makes
a total hash of pronouncing it. <grin

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:xu1Gi.272267$BX3.92542@newsfe13.lga...

That should be "Ashkenazim", NOT "Ashkenazis," for all you GoyIM. <grin
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:FO0Gi.45$H_5.65@eagle.america.net...

Well, that will do in a pinch -- your birthday.

Interesting data on the Ashkenazis and red hair.

Do you have a source for this?

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:AH0Gi.317$RB7.283@newsfe14.lga...

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fca2ov$dv2$4@reader1.panix.com...
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu
wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with
Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at
the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume
le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this
very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et
alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your
own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions
of the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to
any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the
Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

--


I'm aware of all this. I was being more than slightly facetious about
the hypothetical Cossack rapist -- trying to set up the puntchline
about my only documentable connection to The Conqueror, my birthday.

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 04:17:30

I see from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neustria
that "Neustria," at various times, had other referents than just the entire
western portion of the Regnum Francorum. In particular, it came to refer,
specifically, to the region between the Seine and Loire. I wasn't aware of
this latter usage. Thanks for the info.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2228.1189652583.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Have your computer read to you the history of an area called Neustria.

Will

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 04:39:08

Apparently, Eadgyth Swan-neck, was ALSO present at Hastings!
"John Watson" <WatsonJohnM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189567610.718923.46890@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 12, 8:15 am, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Don Aitchen,
1 Harold II, King of England killed 1066
by
his mistress Eadgyth Swan-neck

Fancy that? I always thought it was an arrow that killed him.

Regards,

John

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 04:53:56

Yep, it CERTAINLY did not refer JUST to what is now Normandy.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:1Z1Gi.95582$GO6.31362@newsfe21.lga...

I see from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neustria

that "Neustria," at various times, had other referents than just the
entire western portion of the Regnum Francorum. In particular, it came to
refer, specifically, to the region between the Seine and Loire. I wasn't
aware of this latter usage. Thanks for the info.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/
"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2228.1189652583.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Have your computer read to you the history of an area called Neustria.

Will

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Descent Of British Royal Family From Harold Godwinsson,

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 04:56:44

One story has her called in to identify Harold's body after he was killed.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:jh2Gi.95587$GO6.41255@newsfe21.lga...

Apparently, Eadgyth Swan-neck, was ALSO present at Hastings!

"John Watson" <WatsonJohnM@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189567610.718923.46890@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 12, 8:15 am, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:

Dear Don Aitchen,

1 Harold II, King of England killed 1066 by his mistress Eadgyth
Swan-neck

Fancy that? I always thought it was an arrow that killed him.

Regards,

John

Vance Mead

Re: Democrats Already Dismissing Petraeus Report

Legg inn av Vance Mead » 13 sep 2007 08:57:10

Why do you fill this site with this crap? This has nothing to do with
medieval genealogy. This is nithing but a waste of bandwidth.



On Sep 12, 8:16 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
General Petraeus also holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University's Woodrow
Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

This is one smart cookie.

He made those Democrat Cut & Run Senators look like fools at yesterday's
hearings.

Barbara Boxer was so frightened of him she ran out the clock so he couldn't
even respond to her hysterical tirade and hand-wringing episode.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult
--------------------------------------------

An older summary, when he was a three-star:

Lieutenant General David H. Petraeus assumed command of the U.S. Army
Combined Arms Center and Fort Leavenworth on October 20th, 2005 following
deployment in Iraq as the first commander of the Multi-National Security
Transition Command - Iraq, which he led from June 2004 to September 2005,
and the NATO Training Mission - Iraq, which he commanded from October 2004
to September 2005.

Prior to that deployment, he commanded the 101st Airborne Division (Air
Assault), leading the "Screaming Eagles" in combat during the first year of
Operation Iraqi Freedom.

His command of the 101st followed a year deployed on Operation Joint Forge
in Bosnia, where he was the Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations of the
NATO Stabilization Force and the Deputy Commander of the US Joint
Interagency Counter-Terrorism Task Force - Bosnia.

Prior to his tour in Bosnia, he spent two years at Fort Bragg, North
Carolina, serving first as the Assistant Division Commander for Operations
of the 82nd Airborne Division and then as the Chief of Staff of XVIII
Airborne Corps.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was commissioned in the Infantry upon graduation
from the United States Military Academy in 1974.

He has held leadership positions in airborne, mechanized, and air assault
infantry units in Europe, the Middle East, and the United States, including
command of a battalion in the 101st Airborne Division and a brigade in the
82nd Airborne Division.

In addition, he has held a number of staff assignments: Aide to the Chief of
Staff of the Army; service as a battalion, brigade, and division operations
officer; Military Assistant to the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe; Chief
of Operations of the United Nations Force in Haiti; and Executive Assistant
to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was the General George C. Marshall Award winner
as the top graduate of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College Class
of 1983.

He subsequently earned MPA and Ph.D. degrees in international relations from
Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International
Affairs, and later served as an Assistant Professor of International
Relations at the US Military Academy.

He also completed a fellowship at Georgetown University.

Awards and decorations earned by Lieutenant General Petraeus include the
Defense Distinguished Service Medal, the Distinguished Service Medal, two
awards of the Defense Superior Service Medal, four awards of the Legion of
Merit, the Bronze Star Medal with "V" device, the State Department Superior
Honor Award, and the Gold Award of the Iraqi Order of the Date Palm.

He is a Master Parachutist and Air Assault and Ranger qualified. He has also
earned the Combat Action Badge and French, British, and German Jump Wings.

LTG Petraeus and his wife have two children, a son and a daughter.

William Black

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av William Black » 13 sep 2007 10:59:29

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:XE0Gi.44$H_5.289@eagle.america.net...
: )

How about a famous Rabbi, Philosopher or Physician?

Any of those will do nicely.

Sholem Aleichem.


This is going to end in tears.

I can tell...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

The Highlander

Re: Democrats Already Dismissing Petraeus Report

Legg inn av The Highlander » 13 sep 2007 13:34:00

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:57:10 -0700, Vance Mead
<vance.mead@mead.inet.fi> wrote:

Why do you fill this site with this crap? This has nothing to do with
medieval genealogy. This is nithing but a waste of bandwidth.



On Sep 12, 8:16 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
General Petraeus also holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University's Woodrow
Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

This is one smart cookie.

He made those Democrat Cut & Run Senators look like fools at yesterday's
hearings.

Barbara Boxer was so frightened of him she ran out the clock so he couldn't
even respond to her hysterical tirade and hand-wringing episode.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult
--------------------------------------------

An older summary, when he was a three-star:

Lieutenant General David H. Petraeus assumed command of the U.S. Army
Combined Arms Center and Fort Leavenworth on October 20th, 2005 following
deployment in Iraq as the first commander of the Multi-National Security
Transition Command - Iraq, which he led from June 2004 to September 2005,
and the NATO Training Mission - Iraq, which he commanded from October 2004
to September 2005.

Prior to that deployment, he commanded the 101st Airborne Division (Air
Assault), leading the "Screaming Eagles" in combat during the first year of
Operation Iraqi Freedom.

His command of the 101st followed a year deployed on Operation Joint Forge
in Bosnia, where he was the Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations of the
NATO Stabilization Force and the Deputy Commander of the US Joint
Interagency Counter-Terrorism Task Force - Bosnia.

Prior to his tour in Bosnia, he spent two years at Fort Bragg, North
Carolina, serving first as the Assistant Division Commander for Operations
of the 82nd Airborne Division and then as the Chief of Staff of XVIII
Airborne Corps.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was commissioned in the Infantry upon graduation
from the United States Military Academy in 1974.

He has held leadership positions in airborne, mechanized, and air assault
infantry units in Europe, the Middle East, and the United States, including
command of a battalion in the 101st Airborne Division and a brigade in the
82nd Airborne Division.

In addition, he has held a number of staff assignments: Aide to the Chief of
Staff of the Army; service as a battalion, brigade, and division operations
officer; Military Assistant to the Supreme Allied Commander in Europe; Chief
of Operations of the United Nations Force in Haiti; and Executive Assistant
to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Lieutenant General Petraeus was the General George C. Marshall Award winner
as the top graduate of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College Class
of 1983.

He subsequently earned MPA and Ph.D. degrees in international relations from
Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International
Affairs, and later served as an Assistant Professor of International
Relations at the US Military Academy.

He also completed a fellowship at Georgetown University.

Awards and decorations earned by Lieutenant General Petraeus include the
Defense Distinguished Service Medal, the Distinguished Service Medal, two
awards of the Defense Superior Service Medal, four awards of the Legion of
Merit, the Bronze Star Medal with "V" device, the State Department Superior
Honor Award, and the Gold Award of the Iraqi Order of the Date Palm.

He is a Master Parachutist and Air Assault and Ranger qualified. He has also
earned the Combat Action Badge and French, British, and German Jump Wings.

LTG Petraeus and his wife have two children, a son and a daughter.

A splendid record, but of course with none of the glory and kudos

which would have flowed from singlehandedly attending to the
accommodation requirements of junior officers and their families.

I cannot understand why you did not embark on a real estate career
after leaving the Navy. Given your experience, I would have thought it
a natural conclusion to a career crowned with ignominy...

Still, will there come a day when we will be privileged to read your
memoirs? Something simple but tasteful; a leaflet bound in genuine
imitation morocco leather perhaps...?


The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Dana S. Leslie

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 13 sep 2007 14:19:10

???
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcb1mf$d3r$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:XE0Gi.44$H_5.289@eagle.america.net...
: )

How about a famous Rabbi, Philosopher or Physician?

Any of those will do nicely.

Sholem Aleichem.


This is going to end in tears.

I can tell...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.




William Black

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av William Black » 13 sep 2007 15:01:42

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:5NaGi.95613$GO6.64242@newsfe21.lga...
???

There's a D S Hines faq out there somewhere.

I would read it...

And please don't top post.


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Tiglath

Re: Democrats Already Dismissing Petraeus Report

Legg inn av Tiglath » 13 sep 2007 17:06:28

On Sep 12, 1:16 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
General Petraeus also holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University's Woodrow
Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

This is one smart cookie.



What a waste.

His testimony was to the effect to say that Bush has been right all
along.

When you carry water for this White House you will be wet for a long
time, and no doctorate can change that.

Bryn

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Bryn » 13 sep 2007 17:09:12

In article <fca2ov$dv2$4@reader1.panix.com>, Paul J Gans
<gans@panix.com> writes
In alt.history.british Dana S. Leslie <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
No Sale.

A Companion of the Conqueror has to have made the crossing with Guillaume,
duc de Normandie and been present somewhere, even in the rear, at the
Battle
of Hastings, Saturday, 14 October 1066 -- where he became Guillaume le
Conquerant.

Someone who shared the extreme risks and rewards with William The
Conqueror at this World Historical Event that sounds echoes to this very
day.

Brothers in Arms, or Praying or Support Personnel, Specialists, et alii --
but THERE for the Battle of Hastings on 14 October 1066.

NOT someone who "came over later" or guarded the fort in Normandie.

Sorry you can't find at least one Companion of the Conqueror of your own.
Emphasis on CONQUERING those ruddy, scruffy English at Hastings.

As an Ashkenazi Jewess, I'm not at all likely to find any companions of the
Conqueror lurking among the roots of my family tree. The closest to any
Norman I'm likely to get is the hypothetical Viking ancestor of the Cossack
rapist who introduced the red-hair gene into my bloodline.

But does it make up for that lack that I was born 10/14/57?

The Jewish red-hair gene may not be the same as the
Northern European red-hair gene. Even the colors seem
to be slightly different.

It is also quite likely that your ancestors were western
Europeans in the century or two after 1000 AD. Expulsions
in England, France, and later Spain caused a general
movement first to Germany and then further eastward to
the then Polish lands in the Ukraine.

The "custom" of Christians getting (with consent or without)
Jewish women pregnant was not uncommon. The children were
usually accepted into the Jewish community. One indirect
proof of this is that it seems that the genes of Jews are
more nearly like those of the people they live amongst than
they are like those of other, more distant, Jewish groups.

More simply, most Ashenazi Jews are more genetically similar
to (mainly) northern Europeans than they are, for example,
to Syrian or Iranian Jews.

Professor David Hatch is of the opinion that Red hair occurs when two
groups which were formerly of the same stock but who took different
migratory paths re-integrate. Then after several generations the gene
again becomes recessive.

--
Bryn

Here's to you Jonathan Briley, not falling but flying.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 18:11:01

Black The Red is a confirmed cynic.

'Nuff Said.

DSH

"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:5NaGi.95613$GO6.64242@newsfe21.lga...

???

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcb1mf$d3r$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:XE0Gi.44$H_5.289@eagle.america.net...
: )

How about a famous Rabbi, Philosopher or Physician?

Any of those will do nicely.

Sholem Aleichem.


This is going to end in tears.

I can tell...


--
William Black

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 sep 2007 18:13:03

Top People Top Post.

Bottom People Bottom Post

It's Axiomatic.

DSH

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fcbfsk$pna$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Dana S. Leslie" <dsleslie@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote in message
news:5NaGi.95613$GO6.64242@newsfe21.lga...
???

There's a D S Hines faq out there somewhere.

I would read it...

And please don't top post.

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»