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a.spencer3

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 07 sep 2007 16:07:37

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
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"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
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"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
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"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message
de
news:
LmZDi.311$YE3.666@eagle.america.net...
So, a relative of Cousin Diana...

With a bastard descent from Charles II.

DSH


How closely were you related to 'Cousin Diana'? How closely was the
late
Duke of Buccleuch related to Diana? How closely are you related to
that
family?


Probably even further away than are we Spencers, by the distance
between
Surrey & Hawaii, which must be as far away as one can be, thank
goodness.

Surreyman

Always been interested in where names came from. Looked up Spencer "In
a
castle a chamberlain was an important official. The surname Chambers
comes
from the same source, a man who looked after the king's or a noble's
private
chambers. The man who dispensed stores was a spencer. Other officials
were
the parker who looked after the game park and the warriner who looked
after
rabbit warrens. From him we get the surname Warner. The reeve was an
important official in a Medieval village. Bailey is a
corruption of bailiff, another important official

http://www.localhistories.org/surnames.html

Normandy

Yep, but the first de Spenser in the UK, I think, was also a 'steward'
in
the sense of being a right hand man of William I (but after the
Conquest).
A family with many consequent beheadings for treason, castle-buildings
and
banishments - they were an odd lot.
Our branch came down through whichever lot were Lords of the Manor of
Wimbledon, so I had the benefit of being 'Spencer of Spencer Hill' when
living in Wimbledon as a kid!!
And another lot (or maybe the same) were, coincidentally, Lords of the
Manor
from 1272 of my current home area. But these were largely absent LOMs
out
here, also including Edward the Confessor and the Beauforts.
However, it's all inevitably very convoluted and from whichever side of
the
blanket.
Something I must get into better when I retire properly!

Surreyman

The Falaise Roll records a d'spencer but the Caen table does not. Since
William sailed from Falaise I would think that more accurate. The
Churchills
claimed descent from the companion of William the Conqueror.by way of
d'Spencer down to Sir John Spencer who had flourished as a grazier in
Surry
on rented property. Sir John becmae a Lord of the Manor. Whilst the roll
at
Falaise does not capitalise d'spencer by the time Winston Leonard Spencer
Churchill was born the 's' had long been capitalised.

Spencer of Spencer Hill bit of all right



Yep, it's probably the Surrey lot we're down from, too.
I dug around a bit many years back now.
There's a de Spenser on the supposed Battle Abbey 'roll of honour' of the
knights that came over at Hastings. But apparently it's a load of xxxxxx!
The story seems to be that de Spenser came over too late, smashed the
original scroll, and created a new one including his name - which is now
also enshrined in all those pseudo-parchment lists you can buy at the Battle
bookshop!

Surreyman

David

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av David » 07 sep 2007 17:11:28

On Sep 7, 10:07 am, "a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message

news:46e166dd$0$27413$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...





"a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1QcEi.45712$S91.12...@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e14d44$0$25927$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
ZRaEi.38114$ph7.13...@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e0e321$0$5080$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message
de
news:
LmZDi.311$YE3....@eagle.america.net...
So, a relative of Cousin Diana...

With a bastard descent from Charles II.

DSH

How closely were you related to 'Cousin Diana'? How closely was the
late
Duke of Buccleuch related to Diana? How closely are you related to
that
family?

Probably even further away than are we Spencers, by the distance
between
Surrey & Hawaii, which must be as far away as one can be, thank
goodness.

Surreyman

Always been interested in where names came from. Looked up Spencer "In
a
castle a chamberlain was an important official. The surname Chambers
comes
from the same source, a man who looked after the king's or a noble's
private
chambers. The man who dispensed stores was a spencer. Other officials
were
the parker who looked after the game park and the warriner who looked
after
rabbit warrens. From him we get the surname Warner. The reeve was an
important official in a Medieval village. Bailey is a
corruption of bailiff, another important official

http://www.localhistories.org/surnames.html

Normandy

Yep, but the first de Spenser in the UK, I think, was also a 'steward'
in
the sense of being a right hand man of William I (but after the
Conquest).
A family with many consequent beheadings for treason, castle-buildings
and
banishments - they were an odd lot.
Our branch came down through whichever lot were Lords of the Manor of
Wimbledon, so I had the benefit of being 'Spencer of Spencer Hill' when
living in Wimbledon as a kid!!
And another lot (or maybe the same) were, coincidentally, Lords of the
Manor
from 1272 of my current home area. But these were largely absent LOMs
out
here, also including Edward the Confessor and the Beauforts.
However, it's all inevitably very convoluted and from whichever side of
the
blanket.
Something I must get into better when I retire properly!

Surreyman

The Falaise Roll records a d'spencer but the Caen table does not. Since
William sailed from Falaise I would think that more accurate. The
Churchills
claimed descent from the companion of William the Conqueror.by way of
d'Spencer down to Sir John Spencer who had flourished as a grazier in
Surry
on rented property. Sir John becmae a Lord of the Manor. Whilst the roll
at
Falaise does not capitalise d'spencer by the time Winston Leonard Spencer
Churchill was born the 's' had long been capitalised.

Spencer of Spencer Hill bit of all right

Yep, it's probably the Surrey lot we're down from, too.
I dug around a bit many years back now.
There's a de Spenser on the supposed Battle Abbey

The original name is Despenser, not de Spenser; from earlier French
despensier "one who spends, one who pays out" which became modern
French dépensier "wastrel, spendthrift", both from the verb despenser
> dépenser "to spend"; cf. English "dispense".

John Briggs

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av John Briggs » 07 sep 2007 17:40:41

Normandy wrote:
"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: 1QcEi.45712$S91.12211@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e14d44$0$25927$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: ZRaEi.38114$ph7.13097@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e0e321$0$5080$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le
message de news: LmZDi.311$YE3.666@eagle.america.net...
So, a relative of Cousin Diana...

With a bastard descent from Charles II.

DSH


How closely were you related to 'Cousin Diana'? How closely was
the late Duke of Buccleuch related to Diana? How closely are you
related to that
family?


Probably even further away than are we Spencers, by the distance
between
Surrey & Hawaii, which must be as far away as one can be, thank
goodness. Surreyman

Always been interested in where names came from. Looked up Spencer
"In a castle a chamberlain was an important official. The surname
Chambers comes
from the same source, a man who looked after the king's or a
noble's private chambers. The man who dispensed stores was a
spencer. Other officials were
the parker who looked after the game park and the warriner who
looked after rabbit warrens. From him we get the surname Warner.
The reeve was an important official in a Medieval village. Bailey
is a corruption of bailiff, another important official

http://www.localhistories.org/surnames.html

Normandy

Yep, but the first de Spenser in the UK, I think, was also a
'steward' in the sense of being a right hand man of William I (but
after the Conquest). A family with many consequent beheadings for
treason, castle-buildings and banishments - they were an odd lot.
Our branch came down through whichever lot were Lords of the Manor of
Wimbledon, so I had the benefit of being 'Spencer of Spencer Hill'
when living in Wimbledon as a kid!!
And another lot (or maybe the same) were, coincidentally, Lords of
the Manor
from 1272 of my current home area. But these were largely absent
LOMs out here, also including Edward the Confessor and the Beauforts.
However, it's all inevitably very convoluted and from whichever side
of the
blanket.
Something I must get into better when I retire properly!

Surreyman

The Falaise Roll records a d'spencer but the Caen table does not. Since
William sailed from Falaise I would think that more accurate.
The Churchills claimed descent from the companion of William the
Conqueror.by way of d'Spencer down to Sir John Spencer who had
flourished as a grazier in Surry on rented property. Sir John becmae
a Lord of the Manor. Whilst the roll at Falaise does not capitalise
d'spencer by the time Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill was born the
's' had long been capitalised.

No, no, no - 'Despencer' is just the official who dispenses, food etc, i.e.
the Butler. Every household would have one, and it was a particularly
important function - that is why it became a surname.
--
John Briggs

a.spencer3

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 07 sep 2007 17:55:04

"David" <dsalo@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:1189181488.457595.226800@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 7, 10:07 am, "a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message

news:46e166dd$0$27413$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...





"a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1QcEi.45712$S91.12...@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e14d44$0$25927$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:
ZRaEi.38114$ph7.13...@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e0e321$0$5080$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message
de
news:
LmZDi.311$YE3....@eagle.america.net...
So, a relative of Cousin Diana...

With a bastard descent from Charles II.

DSH

How closely were you related to 'Cousin Diana'? How closely was
the
late
Duke of Buccleuch related to Diana? How closely are you related to
that
family?

Probably even further away than are we Spencers, by the distance
between
Surrey & Hawaii, which must be as far away as one can be, thank
goodness.

Surreyman

Always been interested in where names came from. Looked up Spencer
"In
a
castle a chamberlain was an important official. The surname Chambers
comes
from the same source, a man who looked after the king's or a noble's
private
chambers. The man who dispensed stores was a spencer. Other officials
were
the parker who looked after the game park and the warriner who looked
after
rabbit warrens. From him we get the surname Warner. The reeve was an
important official in a Medieval village. Bailey is a
corruption of bailiff, another important official

http://www.localhistories.org/surnames.html

Normandy

Yep, but the first de Spenser in the UK, I think, was also a 'steward'
in
the sense of being a right hand man of William I (but after the
Conquest).
A family with many consequent beheadings for treason, castle-buildings
and
banishments - they were an odd lot.
Our branch came down through whichever lot were Lords of the Manor of
Wimbledon, so I had the benefit of being 'Spencer of Spencer Hill'
when
living in Wimbledon as a kid!!
And another lot (or maybe the same) were, coincidentally, Lords of the
Manor
from 1272 of my current home area. But these were largely absent LOMs
out
here, also including Edward the Confessor and the Beauforts.
However, it's all inevitably very convoluted and from whichever side
of
the
blanket.
Something I must get into better when I retire properly!

Surreyman

The Falaise Roll records a d'spencer but the Caen table does not. Since
William sailed from Falaise I would think that more accurate. The
Churchills
claimed descent from the companion of William the Conqueror.by way of
d'Spencer down to Sir John Spencer who had flourished as a grazier in
Surry
on rented property. Sir John becmae a Lord of the Manor. Whilst the
roll
at
Falaise does not capitalise d'spencer by the time Winston Leonard
Spencer
Churchill was born the 's' had long been capitalised.

Spencer of Spencer Hill bit of all right

Yep, it's probably the Surrey lot we're down from, too.
I dug around a bit many years back now.
There's a de Spenser on the supposed Battle Abbey

The original name is Despenser, not de Spenser; from earlier French
despensier "one who spends, one who pays out" which became modern
French dépensier "wastrel, spendthrift", both from the verb despenser
dépenser "to spend"; cf. English "dispense".

You're right. The first 'UK' Spencer, William I's chum, was Robert le
Despenser, I believe.

Surreyman

Normandy

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Normandy » 07 sep 2007 18:14:34

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
dafEi.13505$6u5.1669@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
Normandy wrote:
"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: 1QcEi.45712$S91.12211@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e14d44$0$25927$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: ZRaEi.38114$ph7.13097@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e0e321$0$5080$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le
message de news: LmZDi.311$YE3.666@eagle.america.net...
So, a relative of Cousin Diana...

With a bastard descent from Charles II.

DSH


How closely were you related to 'Cousin Diana'? How closely was
the late Duke of Buccleuch related to Diana? How closely are you
related to that
family?


Probably even further away than are we Spencers, by the distance
between
Surrey & Hawaii, which must be as far away as one can be, thank
goodness. Surreyman

Always been interested in where names came from. Looked up Spencer
"In a castle a chamberlain was an important official. The surname
Chambers comes
from the same source, a man who looked after the king's or a
noble's private chambers. The man who dispensed stores was a
spencer. Other officials were
the parker who looked after the game park and the warriner who
looked after rabbit warrens. From him we get the surname Warner.
The reeve was an important official in a Medieval village. Bailey
is a corruption of bailiff, another important official

http://www.localhistories.org/surnames.html

Normandy

Yep, but the first de Spenser in the UK, I think, was also a
'steward' in the sense of being a right hand man of William I (but
after the Conquest). A family with many consequent beheadings for
treason, castle-buildings and banishments - they were an odd lot.
Our branch came down through whichever lot were Lords of the Manor of
Wimbledon, so I had the benefit of being 'Spencer of Spencer Hill'
when living in Wimbledon as a kid!!
And another lot (or maybe the same) were, coincidentally, Lords of
the Manor
from 1272 of my current home area. But these were largely absent
LOMs out here, also including Edward the Confessor and the Beauforts.
However, it's all inevitably very convoluted and from whichever side
of the
blanket.
Something I must get into better when I retire properly!

Surreyman

The Falaise Roll records a d'spencer but the Caen table does not. Since
William sailed from Falaise I would think that more accurate.
The Churchills claimed descent from the companion of William the
Conqueror.by way of d'Spencer down to Sir John Spencer who had
flourished as a grazier in Surry on rented property. Sir John becmae
a Lord of the Manor. Whilst the roll at Falaise does not capitalise
d'spencer by the time Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill was born the
's' had long been capitalised.

No, no, no - 'Despencer' is just the official who dispenses, food etc,
i.e. the Butler. Every household would have one, and it was a
particularly important function - that is why it became a surname.
--
John Briggs
If you look above the name come from "The man who dispensed stores was a

spencer" The roll at Falaise says d'spencer. Is the breath mark a
replacement for the E in the time of William?

Normandy
>

William Black

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av William Black » 07 sep 2007 18:26:25

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:dafEi.13505$6u5.1669@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

No, no, no - 'Despencer' is just the official who dispenses, food etc,
i.e. the Butler. Every household would have one, and it was a
particularly important function - that is why it became a surname.

I've read that as well, but the servants of the 'inner household' became
the professional Civil Service pretty quickly.

While it's possible that the butler of the Duke of Normandy was just that,
the bottler, the butler of the king of England probably wasn't.

Thinking about it, the fact that Despencer was knighted probably indicates
that the job was already something well beyond carrying in the boar's head
at the high point of dinner...

The butler was one of the officials in charge of the booze rather than the
food, what you're thinking of is the steward, who was in charge of the
lot. I think there were four lots of servants involved in serving a meal, I
think the ewerers, pantlers, sewerers and butlers, but it was all told at
a lecture long ago and I'm probably wrong...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Diana, Princess Of Wales's Descents From Charles II

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 07 sep 2007 18:58:22

I've not seen any evidence that Diana is descended from Eleanor "Nell" Gwynn
and Charles II.

If Leo is correct, she is not descended from Charles II and Lucy Walter
either -- but descended from Lucy Walter and Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of
Arlington.

However Diana does appear to be descended from Charles II and Barbara
Villiers, Duchess of Cleveland and Charles II and Louise Renée de Penancoët
de Kéroualle, Duchess of Portsmouth.

So, that would make Diana as descended from Charles II with TWO of his
mistresses -- NOT FOUR. BUT with a separate descent from Lucy Walter and
another man, Henry Bennet.

Comments?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-------------------------------------------------------

Mary Crofts.

She was never acknowledged by Charles II.

Back when Leo was a Reasonable Man.

DSH
-------------------------------------------------------------

"Dear Spencer,

Mary is not a daughter of Charles II. Her mother, Lucy Walter, is mother of
the Duke of Monmouth and even his paternity is slightly, but only slightly,
shaky. After Monmouth was born Charles II quickly discarded her as she had
roving eyes. When Lucy Walter died, Charles II took James Scott, Duke of
Monmouth, to bring him up. He did not take Mary Crofts. Mary was fathered by
Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington, and the Crofts surname comes from Henry
Bennet's mother.

The other two lines are spot on.

Have a look in my data base and ask for Lucy Walter, she has a few
biographical remarks about this."

Leo van de Pas ---- 9 September 2003
-----------------------------------------------------------

Mary Crofts? Was her father actually Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington,
Viscount Thetford, b. abt 1618, Middlesex? -- DSH

From: "José Verheecke" <jose.verheecke@pandora.be>

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 12:00 PM

Subject: Re: Lines From Charles II To Diana, Princess Of Wales [1961-1997]

| According to an excellent article by Philip Hall(a)
| Lucy Walter's daughter Mary(°Den Haag,Holland ..-5-1651)
| was fathered by Theobald,2nd Viscount Taaffe(+1677)....
| (a)Philip Hall:"Charles II's Noble descendants"(Genealogist's
| Magazine vol 22:7 [Sept 1987],col.487-500)
|
| José Verheecke

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:...

Thanks.

How about the descent from Nell Gwynn?

A tree...

DSH

"William Reitwiesner" <wmaddams@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:wmaddams-46EAA7.22264705092007@news.supernews.com...

In article <1188996157.250031.217200@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Turenne <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote:

On 5 Sep, 09:35, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

How does Diana descend from Charles II and Lucy Walter and Charles II
and Nell Gwynn?

The descents from James Crofts-Scott, 1st Duke of Monmouth or another
alleged child of Lucy Walter, Mary -- and Charles Beauclerk, Duke of
Saint Albans, the son by Nell Gwynn.

Thank you.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

See:

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/dianalines.htm

Or

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;m ... 2=0;dag=on

So, if Leo is correct -- WAR must be wrong.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Turenne

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Turenne » 07 sep 2007 19:37:26

My understanding is that the Falais Roll leaves a lot to be desired as
far as accuracy is concerned. It is felt that the roll was a medieval
invention compounded over the years. The following are thought to be
some of the most likely to have fought at Hastings:

Robert de Beaumont, later Earl of Leicester
Eustace of Boulogne, Count of Boulogne
William of Evreux, later Count of Evreux
Geoffrey of Mortagne, later Count of Perche
William Fitz Osbern, later Earl of Hereford
Aimeri de Thouars, Vicomte of Thouars
Hugh de Montfort, seigneur of Montfort-sur-Risle
Walter Giffard, seigneur of Longueville
Ralph de Toeni, seigneur of Conches
Hugh de Grandmesil, seigneur of Grandmesnil
William de Warenne, later Earl of Surrey
William Malet, seigneur of Graville
Odo of Bayeux, Bishop of Bayeux, later Earl of Kent
Turstin Fitz Rou
Engenulf de Laigle, seigneur of Laigle
Geoffrey de Montbray, Bishop of Coutances.
Robert of Mortain, Count of Mortain, later Earl of Cornwall.
Wadard, believed to be a follower of the Bishop of Bayeux.
Vital, believed to be a follower of the Bishop of Bayeux.
Goubert d'Auffay, seigneur of Auffay.
William Malet.
Robert de Vitot.
Gerelmus de Panileuse.
(*?) Robert fitz Ernis. (Urze?)
Roger, son of Turold.
Turstin, son of Rou.
Erchembald
Taillefer.
A member of the house of Ponthieu ("Pontivi nobilis haeres"). Perhaps
Count Gui I.
Gerald the Seneschal
Rodulf the Chamberlain (? de Tancarville).
Hugh d'Ivry, the Pincerna.
Richard fitz Gilbert (de Clare).
Pons (? ancestor of the Cliffords).
Ranulf the Vicomte of the Bessin.
Ralf Tesson.
Fulk d'Aunou.
Richard the Vicomte d'Avranchin

Richard

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 07 sep 2007 20:11:37

Citation?

DSH

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:InfEi.51177$1G1.25809@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...

You're right. The first 'UK' Spencer, William I's chum, was Robert le
Despenser, I believe.

Surreyman

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 07 sep 2007 21:13:27

Bingo!

This "Robert le Despenser" as a Companion Of The Conqueror sounds like
wishful thinking on "Surreyman's" part.

Par For The Course...

DSH

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1189195260.712915.101560@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

On 7 Sep, 20:11, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Citation?

DSH

"a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message

news:InfEi.51177$1G1.25809@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...

You're right. The first 'UK' Spencer, William I's chum, was Robert le
Despenser, I believe.

Surreyman- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A mixture of sources. Here is the Falaise Roll for what it's worth. If
you fancy it you can cross reference it with the Roll at Battle Abbey.

http://www.robertsewell.ca/falaise.html

Don't forget that the most recent incarnation of the Falaise Roll is
dated 1931, by which time quite a few extra names had been added.

I am minded of George IV who, even in the company of Wellington,
reminisced over dinner about the part he played at Waterloo!

Richard

David

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av David » 07 sep 2007 21:18:05

On Sep 7, 12:14 pm, "Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
"John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
dafEi.13505$6u5.1...@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

Normandy wrote:
"a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: 1QcEi.45712$S91.12__BEGIN_MASK_n#9g02mG7!__...__END_MASK_i?a63jfAD$z__@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e14d44$0$25927$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"a.spencer3" <a.spenc...@ntlworld.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: ZRaEi.38114$ph7.13__BEGIN_MASK_n#9g02mG7!__...__END_MASK_i?a63jfAD$z__@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46e0e321$0$5080$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le
message denews: LmZDi.311$YE3.__BEGIN_MASK_n#9g02mG7!__...__END_MASK_i?a63jfAD$z__@eagle.america.net...
So, a relative of Cousin Diana...

With a bastard descent from Charles II.

DSH

How closely were you related to 'Cousin Diana'? How closely was
the late Duke of Buccleuch related to Diana? How closely are you
related to that
family?

Probably even further away than are we Spencers, by the distance
between
Surrey & Hawaii, which must be as far away as one can be, thank
goodness. Surreyman

Always been interested in where names came from. Looked up Spencer
"In a castle a chamberlain was an important official. The surname
Chambers comes
from the same source, a man who looked after the king's or a
noble's private chambers. The man who dispensed stores was a
spencer. Other officials were
the parker who looked after the game park and the warriner who
looked after rabbit warrens. From him we get the surname Warner.
The reeve was an important official in a Medieval village. Bailey
is a corruption of bailiff, another important official

http://www.localhistories.org/surnames.html

Normandy

Yep, but the first de Spenser in the UK, I think, was also a
'steward' in the sense of being a right hand man of William I (but
after the Conquest). A family with many consequent beheadings for
treason, castle-buildings and banishments - they were an odd lot.
Our branch came down through whichever lot were Lords of the Manor of
Wimbledon, so I had the benefit of being 'Spencer of Spencer Hill'
when living in Wimbledon as a kid!!
And another lot (or maybe the same) were, coincidentally, Lords of
the Manor
from 1272 of my current home area. But these were largely absent
LOMs out here, also including Edward the Confessor and the Beauforts.
However, it's all inevitably very convoluted and from whichever side
of the
blanket.
Something I must get into better when I retire properly!

Surreyman

The Falaise Roll records a d'spencer but the Caen table does not. Since
William sailed from Falaise I would think that more accurate.
The Churchills claimed descent from the companion of William the
Conqueror.by way of d'Spencer down to Sir John Spencer who had
flourished as a grazier in Surry on rented property. Sir John becmae
a Lord of the Manor. Whilst the roll at Falaise does not capitalise
d'spencer by the time Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill was born the
's' had long been capitalised.

No, no, no - 'Despencer' is just the official who dispenses, food etc,
i.e. the Butler. Every household would have one, and it was a
particularly important function - that is why it became a surname.
--
John Briggs

If you look above the name come from "The man who dispensed stores was a
spencer" The roll at Falaise says d'spencer. Is the breath mark a
replacement for the E in the time of William?

No, and the Falaise roll quoted above says "le Despensier", not
"d'spencer". A form that doesn't exist doesn't need to be explained.

David

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av David » 07 sep 2007 21:22:30

On Sep 7, 3:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Bingo!

This "Robert le Despenser" as a Companion Of The Conqueror sounds like
wishful thinking on "Surreyman's" part.

Par For The Course...

DSH

That's a little harsh -- the story that a Spencer came over with
William the Conqueror may be erroneous, or even fraudulent, but it's
not as if Surreyman is personally making it up.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 07 sep 2007 21:38:28

"Surreyman", like most broken-down Englishmen, with many frustrations, wants
to tie his lineage to a Noble, Royal or Retainer -- as in "Robert le
Despenser".

He wants to find such links for his own aggrandizement -- whereas I do it
for the FUN of it -- realizing that such descents are available to millions
who are willing to do the tracing.

TENS of MILLIONS of us are descended from William The Conqueror himself --
so, making some silly-buggers statement about an invented Companion of the
Conqueror is ludicrous -- but amusing -- and "Surreyman" provides Fair
Entertainment -- although he's not a Top Banana, such as Stewart.

Telling us about a "Robert le Despenser" that someone ELSE made up and
trying to hook himself to it is just as bad as inventing a Companion of the
Conqueror himself.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"David" <dsalo@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:1189196550.072687.296770@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

On Sep 7, 3:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Bingo!

This "Robert le Despenser" as a Companion Of The Conqueror sounds like
wishful thinking on "Surreyman's" part.

Par For The Course...

DSH

That's a little harsh -- the story that a Spencer came over with
William the Conqueror may be erroneous, or even fraudulent, but it's
not as if Surreyman is personally making it up.

Turenne

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Turenne » 07 sep 2007 22:41:39

One of the greatest parliamentary quotes came from the first Lord
Spencer; Sir Robert Spencer, then head of the house, who was created
Baron Spencer of Wormleighton. The new noble made his appearance in
the House of Lords and promptly began giving advice on the conduct of
the government. The Earl of Arundel arose and thanked the new baron
for his suggestions and reminded him that while the ancestors of the
other men present were dying in battle for the glory of the nation,
the sheep grazing Spencers of Warwickshire had amounted to absolutely
nothing." Lord Spencer is reported to have answered, "When my
ancestors were, as you say, keeping sheep, yours, my lord ,were
plotting treason."

Richard Lichten

Turenne

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Turenne » 07 sep 2007 22:52:11

One of the great Parliamentary put-downs emanated from the 1st Baron
Spencer:

Sir Robert Spencer, one of the richestmen in England, was created
Baron Spencer of Wormleighton. The new noble made his appearance in
the House of Lords and promptly began giving advice on the conduct of
the government. The Earl of Arundel thanked the new baron for his
suggestions and reminded him that while the ancestors of the other men
present were dying in battle for the glory of the nation, the sheep
grazing Spencers of Warwickshire had amounted to absolutely nothing."
Lord Spencer is reported to have answered, "When my ancestors were, as
you say, keeping sheep, yours, my lord ,were plotting treason."

I don't need to remind this group of the regular appearances of
members of the Howard family to the executioners block!

Richard L

WJhonson

Re: Washington of Washington and their Tempest and Mallory h

Legg inn av WJhonson » 07 sep 2007 23:10:23

Sir William de Wessington V (number five !) died without a male heir, in 1399, which is why the Norman Manor Hall of Washington passed into the Tempest family with the marriage of his daughter Alianor (Eleanor) to Sir William Tempest of Studley.

He was Mr number five, the guy who built it was his distant ancestor.

So there ya go.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Washington of Washington and their Tempest and Mallory h

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 07 sep 2007 23:15:43

Dear Will,

We need to go a little further :-) Who was the mother of Alianore and what about the ancestors of William?
So many questions and so many William Washingtons :-)
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: WJhonson
To: Leo van de Pas ; Tony Hoskins ; GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: Washington of Washington and their Tempest and Mallory heirs


Sir William de Wessington V (number five !) died without a male heir, in 1399, which is why the Norman Manor Hall of Washington passed into the Tempest family with the marriage of his daughter Alianor (Eleanor) to Sir William Tempest of Studley.

He was Mr number five, the guy who built it was his distant ancestor.

So there ya go.

Will Johnson

Clagett, Brice

re: Jane (Joan) Botiler d. 1480

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 07 sep 2007 23:16:35

I do not think that Joan, wife of (1) John Leventhorpe and (2)
John Stanford, was a daughter of Sir John Boteler of Bewsey
and Isabel Harrington. According to my sources she was
daughter of John Butler (d. 1482) of Meppershall, etc., Bed-
fordshire, and his wife, Eliza beth _____, and granddaughter
of John Butler (d. 1442) and his second wife, Joan Meppershall.
Joan inherited Meppershall. See volume 12 of Moriarty's note-
books at NEHGS and vol. 2 of VCH Bedford.

WJhonson

Re: Washington of Washington and their Tempest and Mallory h

Legg inn av WJhonson » 07 sep 2007 23:24:25

Here is some stuff to digest with your tea and crumpets, appropriate to this topic

http://books.google.com/books?id=3FZqCm ... #PPA541,M1

William Black

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av William Black » 07 sep 2007 23:28:56

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1189201931.491291.145050@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
One of the great Parliamentary put-downs emanated from the 1st Baron
Spencer:

Sir Robert Spencer, one of the richestmen in England, was created
Baron Spencer of Wormleighton. The new noble made his appearance in
the House of Lords and promptly began giving advice on the conduct of
the government. The Earl of Arundel thanked the new baron for his
suggestions and reminded him that while the ancestors of the other men
present were dying in battle for the glory of the nation, the sheep
grazing Spencers of Warwickshire had amounted to absolutely nothing."
Lord Spencer is reported to have answered, "When my ancestors were, as
you say, keeping sheep, yours, my lord ,were plotting treason."

I don't need to remind this group of the regular appearances of
members of the Howard family to the executioners block!

Didn't some Spencers get theirs (for treason) when Edward II got his?


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Turenne

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Turenne » 07 sep 2007 23:39:51

As Hovite stated earlier:

After Sir Piers de Gavaston was beheaded, bereft King Edward II found
solace in the arms of Hugh Despenser the Younger. This displeased the

Queen and she was vengeful. The Complete Peerage, 2nd edition, tells
the awful tale: "He accompanied the King in his flight to Wales in
October 1326, and with the King was captured near Llantrisant, County
Glamorgan, 16 November 1326. He was taken to Hereford, tried -
without
being allowed to speak in own defence - condemned to death as a
traitor, and hanged on a gallows 50 feet high, 24 November 1326. His
head was set up on London Bridge, 4 December, and his quarters in
four
different places [Dover, Bristol, York, and Newcastle] ... The Queen
obtained his movables, plate, and jewels, 8 January 1327". >>>>>

It's important not to get the Spencers mixed up with the Despencers;
although the Spencers claim descent from the more ancient family,
their relationship is somewhat tenuous. It is interesting to note that
the Spencer coat of arms is the same as that of the Despencer's, but I
feel that Garter was being charitable when granting the arms.

Richard


WJhonson

Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J

Legg inn av WJhonson » 07 sep 2007 23:48:29

And it doesn't seem the slightest bit silly to rely on some author quoting some other author's tract when the words of Charles Brandon himself are extant and available to view on the very topic quoted? That is his betrothal to Anne Browne, him throwing her over to marry Margaret Neville, Lady Mortimer and then his divorce from Lady Mortimer *so he says* to then marry Anne Browne, solemnized while she was considerably pregnant with his second child.

I'm sure the actual papal bull is living in the stacks at Salt Lake City. I've already suggested where it might be found.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Possible C.P. Addition: Margaret Neville's marriage to J

Legg inn av WJhonson » 07 sep 2007 23:51:31

Are you suggesting that her known daughter Anne was by Robert Downes?

Or are you suggesting that Robert Horne was her lover but not husband?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Paul J Gans

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 08 sep 2007 02:37:03

In soc.history.medieval Turenne <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote:


My understanding is that the Falais Roll leaves a lot to be desired as
far as accuracy is concerned. It is felt that the roll was a medieval
invention compounded over the years. The following are thought to be
some of the most likely to have fought at Hastings:

Robert de Beaumont, later Earl of Leicester
Eustace of Boulogne, Count of Boulogne
William of Evreux, later Count of Evreux
Geoffrey of Mortagne, later Count of Perche
William Fitz Osbern, later Earl of Hereford
Aimeri de Thouars, Vicomte of Thouars
Hugh de Montfort, seigneur of Montfort-sur-Risle
Walter Giffard, seigneur of Longueville
Ralph de Toeni, seigneur of Conches
Hugh de Grandmesil, seigneur of Grandmesnil
William de Warenne, later Earl of Surrey
William Malet, seigneur of Graville
Odo of Bayeux, Bishop of Bayeux, later Earl of Kent
Turstin Fitz Rou
Engenulf de Laigle, seigneur of Laigle
Geoffrey de Montbray, Bishop of Coutances.
Robert of Mortain, Count of Mortain, later Earl of Cornwall.
Wadard, believed to be a follower of the Bishop of Bayeux.
Vital, believed to be a follower of the Bishop of Bayeux.
Goubert d'Auffay, seigneur of Auffay.
William Malet.
Robert de Vitot.
Gerelmus de Panileuse.
(*?) Robert fitz Ernis. (Urze?)
Roger, son of Turold.
Turstin, son of Rou.
Erchembald
Taillefer.
A member of the house of Ponthieu ("Pontivi nobilis haeres"). Perhaps
Count Gui I.
Gerald the Seneschal
Rodulf the Chamberlain (? de Tancarville).
Hugh d'Ivry, the Pincerna.
Richard fitz Gilbert (de Clare).
Pons (? ancestor of the Cliffords).
Ranulf the Vicomte of the Bessin.
Ralf Tesson.
Fulk d'Aunou.
Richard the Vicomte d'Avranchin

I can't speak about most of the others, but Taillefer is
rather unlikely. He occurs in the Carmen de Hastingae
Proelio usually attributed to Guy, Bishop of Amiens, though
there is reason to doubt that.

The Taillefer story is highly problematic[1] and reeks of
a poetic addition.

The Carmen can be regarded as an early source because of
Guy's death soon after Hastings. If he did not write
it, it could be rather late.[2]

William Malet is also included twice in the list above.


[1] It involves the midst of the battle when a knight,
Taillefer, supposedly rides out in front of the Norman lines,
juggling his sword and shouting insults at the Anglo-Saxons.
The battle pauses. Finally a Saxon hero arrives, fights Taillefer,
and is killed. The battle then resumes. The story is not told by
any other somewhat contemporary writers, but does occur in later
writings on Hastings, such as Wace.

[2] And indeed shows many of the literary marks of late
composition, including the accumulation of legendary cruft
that often accompanies great events.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Tony Ingham

Re: Jane (Joan) Botiler d. 1480

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 08 sep 2007 02:39:55

My Leventhorpe family data indicates John Boteler of Toft Cambs. son of
John and h.w. Joan Meperteshale. Writs were issued for Beds., Herts. and
Cambs. after John jrs. death in 1482.

Tony Ingham


Clagett, Brice wrote:
I do not think that Joan, wife of (1) John Leventhorpe and (2)
John Stanford, was a daughter of Sir John Boteler of Bewsey
and Isabel Harrington. According to my sources she was
daughter of John Butler (d. 1482) of Meppershall, etc., Bed-
fordshire, and his wife, Eliza beth _____, and granddaughter
of John Butler (d. 1442) and his second wife, Joan Meppershall.
Joan inherited Meppershall. See volume 12 of Moriarty's note-
books at NEHGS and vol. 2 of VCH Bedford.

-------------------------------
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D. Spencer Hines

Re: Diana, Princess Of Wales's Descents From Charles II

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 sep 2007 04:00:23

I've not seen any evidence that Diana is descended from Eleanor "Nell" Gwynn
and Charles II.

If Leo is correct, she is not descended from Charles II and Lucy Walter
either -- but descended from Lucy Walter and Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of
Arlington.

However Diana does appear to be descended from Charles II and Barbara
Villiers, Duchess of Cleveland and Charles II and Louise Renée de Penancoët
de Kéroualle, Duchess of Portsmouth.

So, that would make Diana as descended from Charles II with TWO of his
mistresses -- NOT FOUR....

BUT with a separate descent from Lucy Walter and another man, Colonel Henry
Bennet, later 1st Earl of Arlington.

Comments?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-------------------------------------------------------

Mary Crofts.

She was never acknowledged by Charles II.

Back when Leo was a Reasonable Man.

DSH
-------------------------------------------------------------

"Dear Spencer,

Mary is not a daughter of Charles II. Her mother, Lucy Walter, is mother of
the Duke of Monmouth and even his paternity is slightly, but only slightly,
shaky. After Monmouth was born Charles II quickly discarded her as she had
roving eyes. When Lucy Walter died, Charles II took James Scott, Duke of
Monmouth, to bring him up. He did not take Mary Crofts. Mary was fathered by
Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington, and the Crofts surname comes from Henry
Bennet's mother.

The other two lines are spot on.

Have a look in my data base and ask for Lucy Walter, she has a few
biographical remarks about this."

Leo van de Pas ---- 9 September 2003
-----------------------------------------------------------

Mary Crofts? Was her father actually Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington,
Viscount Thetford, b. abt 1618, Middlesex? -- DSH

From: "José Verheecke" <jose.verheecke@pandora.be>

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 12:00 PM

Subject: Re: Lines From Charles II To Diana, Princess Of Wales [1961-1997]

| According to an excellent article by Philip Hall(a)
| Lucy Walter's daughter Mary(°Den Haag,Holland ..-5-1651)
| was fathered by Theobald,2nd Viscount Taaffe(+1677)....
| (a)Philip Hall:"Charles II's Noble descendants"(Genealogist's
| Magazine vol 22:7 [Sept 1987],col.487-500)
|
| José Verheecke

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:...

Thanks.

How about the descent from Nell Gwynn?

A tree...

DSH

"William Reitwiesner" <wmaddams@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:wmaddams-46EAA7.22264705092007@news.supernews.com...

In article <1188996157.250031.217200@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Turenne <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote:

On 5 Sep, 09:35, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

How does Diana descend from Charles II and Lucy Walter and Charles II
and Nell Gwynn?

The descents from James Crofts-Scott, 1st Duke of Monmouth or another
alleged child of Lucy Walter, Mary -- and Charles Beauclerk, Duke of
Saint Albans, the son by Nell Gwynn.

Thank you.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

See:

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/dianalines.htm

Or

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;m ... 2=0;dag=on

So, if Leo is correct -- WAR must be wrong.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

a.spencer3

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 08 sep 2007 10:42:09

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fbs1kk$37a$2@registered.motzarella.org...
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:dafEi.13505$6u5.1669@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

No, no, no - 'Despencer' is just the official who dispenses, food etc,
i.e. the Butler. Every household would have one, and it was a
particularly important function - that is why it became a surname.

I've read that as well, but the servants of the 'inner household' became
the professional Civil Service pretty quickly.

While it's possible that the butler of the Duke of Normandy was just that,
the bottler, the butler of the king of England probably wasn't.

Thinking about it, the fact that Despencer was knighted probably
indicates
that the job was already something well beyond carrying in the boar's head
at the high point of dinner...

The butler was one of the officials in charge of the booze rather than the
food, what you're thinking of is the steward, who was in charge of the
lot. I think there were four lots of servants involved in serving a meal,
I
think the ewerers, pantlers, sewerers and butlers, but it was all told
at
a lecture long ago and I'm probably wrong...


Yep.
The name origins might have been more humble.
But by 1066 some Spencers and Stewards, for instance, had risen to the top.

Surreyman

a.spencer3

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 08 sep 2007 10:42:13

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:WhiEi.10$FF5.124@eagle.america.net...
Bingo!

This "Robert le Despenser" as a Companion Of The Conqueror sounds like
wishful thinking on "Surreyman's" part.

Par For The Course...


I specifically said 'after' Hastings, and have already decried his attempts

at retrospectively becoming a 'companion'.
Read my posts.
Then, check some history.

Twit!

Surreyman

a.spencer3

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 08 sep 2007 10:45:13

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:RGiEi.12$FF5.100@eagle.america.net...
"Surreyman", like most broken-down Englishmen, with many frustrations,
wants
to tie his lineage to a Noble, Royal or Retainer -- as in "Robert le
Despenser".

He wants to find such links for his own aggrandizement -- whereas I do it
for the FUN of it -- realizing that such descents are available to
millions
who are willing to do the tracing.

TENS of MILLIONS of us are descended from William The Conqueror himself --
so, making some silly-buggers statement about an invented Companion of the
Conqueror is ludicrous -- but amusing -- and "Surreyman" provides Fair
Entertainment -- although he's not a Top Banana, such as Stewart.

Telling us about a "Robert le Despenser" that someone ELSE made up and
trying to hook himself to it is just as bad as inventing a Companion of
the
Conqueror himself.


I specifically said 'after' Hastings, and have already decried his attempts

at retrospectively becoming a 'companion'.
Read my posts.
Then, check some history.

Twit!

Surreyman

a.spencer3

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 08 sep 2007 10:53:37

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fbsjbr$2te$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1189201931.491291.145050@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
One of the great Parliamentary put-downs emanated from the 1st Baron
Spencer:

Sir Robert Spencer, one of the richestmen in England, was created
Baron Spencer of Wormleighton. The new noble made his appearance in
the House of Lords and promptly began giving advice on the conduct of
the government. The Earl of Arundel thanked the new baron for his
suggestions and reminded him that while the ancestors of the other men
present were dying in battle for the glory of the nation, the sheep
grazing Spencers of Warwickshire had amounted to absolutely nothing."
Lord Spencer is reported to have answered, "When my ancestors were, as
you say, keeping sheep, yours, my lord ,were plotting treason."

I don't need to remind this group of the regular appearances of
members of the Howard family to the executioners block!

Didn't some Spencers get theirs (for treason) when Edward II got his?



Oh certainly!
And another was 'banished beyond the Welsh' - a fate even worse than death,
apparently! This led to the formation of the 'Little England' area in
Pembrokeshire, I believe.

Surreyman

a.spencer3

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 08 sep 2007 11:02:49

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1189205277.392621.19390@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

0201171.jpg

Yep, the fret in particular pops up throughout many Spencer arms, and is on
both the current Wimbledon (London) and Woking (Surrey) towns' arms, showing
the Spencer, Lord of Manor, association.

Surreyman

William Black

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av William Black » 08 sep 2007 11:13:30

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1189204791.648522.13030@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
As Hovite stated earlier:

After Sir Piers de Gavaston was beheaded,

I thought he just got run through at Pontefract Castle, a depressing place
to die...


bereft King Edward II found
solace in the arms of Hugh Despenser the Younger.

Well no.

There's a gap.

Part of this gap is filled by The battle of Bannockburn.

So there's lots going on...


This displeased the
Queen and she was vengeful.

Not exactly.

She was shagging a nasty piece of work called Mortimer at the time and it
was an even chance who'd get murdered by the other.

That's the nice thing about the story of Edward II.

Not a single person comes out of it with any credit at all.


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

William Black

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av William Black » 08 sep 2007 11:14:59

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:JauEi.11359$F77.9776@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:RGiEi.12$FF5.100@eagle.america.net...
"Surreyman", like most broken-down Englishmen, with many frustrations,
wants
to tie his lineage to a Noble, Royal or Retainer -- as in "Robert le
Despenser".

He wants to find such links for his own aggrandizement -- whereas I do it
for the FUN of it -- realizing that such descents are available to
millions
who are willing to do the tracing.

TENS of MILLIONS of us are descended from William The Conqueror
himself --
so, making some silly-buggers statement about an invented Companion of
the
Conqueror is ludicrous -- but amusing -- and "Surreyman" provides Fair
Entertainment -- although he's not a Top Banana, such as Stewart.

Telling us about a "Robert le Despenser" that someone ELSE made up and
trying to hook himself to it is just as bad as inventing a Companion of
the
Conqueror himself.


I specifically said 'after' Hastings, and have already decried his
attempts
at retrospectively becoming a 'companion'.
Read my posts.
Then, check some history.

Twit!

Isn't he.

This particular gentleman and his possible editing of the roll of companions
is reasonably well known.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

William Black

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av William Black » 08 sep 2007 18:14:17

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fbujb4$rlq$1@reader1.panix.com...
In alt.history.british William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1189204791.648522.13030@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
As Hovite stated earlier:

After Sir Piers de Gavaston was beheaded,

I thought he just got run through at Pontefract Castle, a depressing
place
to die...


bereft King Edward II found
solace in the arms of Hugh Despenser the Younger.

Well no.

There's a gap.

Part of this gap is filled by The battle of Bannockburn.

So there's lots going on...


This displeased the
Queen and she was vengeful.

Not exactly.

She was shagging a nasty piece of work called Mortimer at the time and it
was an even chance who'd get murdered by the other.

That's the nice thing about the story of Edward II.

Not a single person comes out of it with any credit at all.

Eddy III seems to have been the last one standing, if
not the actual winner.

'Winner' isn't exactly how I'd describe a man who locked his mum up in a
nunnery and hung her boyfriend (without the benefit of a trial)

He went on to start the Hundred Years War, preside over the Black Death.
introduced the 'Statute of Labourers', probably the cause of the Peasant's
Revolt (and, let's be honest here, Socialism in England, still, every
cloud...) and started off the first serious attempt by the English to
conquer Ireland, introduced summary justice and then had the unmitigated
gall to introduce the Treason Act!

Like his dad he was a serious chaser after sex, but at least they were
female this time, although one of them nicked all his rings as he lay
dying....

What's positive about him?

Well, he wasn't gay, he threw the Papal Courts out of England and he made
English the normal language for official business, at least, some of the
time...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Paul J Gans

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 08 sep 2007 18:42:03

In alt.history.british William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1189204791.648522.13030@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
As Hovite stated earlier:

After Sir Piers de Gavaston was beheaded,

I thought he just got run through at Pontefract Castle, a depressing place
to die...


bereft King Edward II found
solace in the arms of Hugh Despenser the Younger.

Well no.

There's a gap.

Part of this gap is filled by The battle of Bannockburn.

So there's lots going on...


This displeased the
Queen and she was vengeful.

Not exactly.

She was shagging a nasty piece of work called Mortimer at the time and it
was an even chance who'd get murdered by the other.

That's the nice thing about the story of Edward II.

Not a single person comes out of it with any credit at all.

Eddy III seems to have been the last one standing, if
not the actual winner.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 sep 2007 18:53:19

"Eddy III"...

How cute.

DSH

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fbujb4$rlq$1@reader1.panix.com...

That's the nice thing about the story of Edward II.

Not a single person comes out of it with any credit at all.

Eddy III seems to have been the last one standing, if
not the actual winner.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Turenne

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Turenne » 08 sep 2007 21:01:24

William Black wrote:

.....preside over the Black Death.

Bit harsh William; he was hardly the Pied Piper.

Richard

William Black

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av William Black » 08 sep 2007 22:08:59

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1189281684.421800.196330@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
William Black wrote:

.....preside over the Black Death.

Bit harsh William; he was hardly the Pied Piper.


He was unlucky in his parents as well (assuming Edward II was actually his
father)

That's his problem, after all, as Mel Brooks says "It's good to be the
king..."

Only sometimes it isn't...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 08 sep 2007 22:14:58

More famously, Peter O'Toole as Henry II, in _The Lion In Winter_.

DSH

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fbv36j$a61$1@registered.motzarella.org...

That's his problem, after all, as Mel Brooks says "It's good to be the
king..."

Gjest

Re: Genealogical Cliques

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 sep 2007 23:25:04

Dear Dana,
I can only claim (as millions can) descent from Hugh de
Moreville, Justiciar of Scotia who was father to Becket`s assassin. the
assassin`s brother Richard de Moreville succeeded their father as Justiciar, his
daughter Elena de Moreville married Roland(gaelic Lachlan), Lord of Galloway, their
son Alan, Lord of Galloway married 1st _________ de Lacy of Pontefract and
had a daughter Helen of Galloway who married Roger de Quincey, 2nd Earl of
Winchester and Justiciar of Scotia in right of his wife.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Tony Hoskins

Re: Washington of Washington and their Tempest and Mallory h

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 08 sep 2007 23:42:27

Thanks Will and Leo.

For what it's worth, this site http://www.geocities.com/wor_lass/

"The Washington Line Continues: William de Wessington I was succeeded
by direct male descendants and their families until the death of his
great-great-great-great grandson, Sir William de Wessington V in 1399.
As he and his wife, Alina, did not have a male heir the Washington Manor
passed into the hands of the Tempest family, when their daughter Eleanor
married Sir William Tempest, a relative from Yorkshire. However, as Sir
William Tempest also died without leaving a male heir the Washington
Manor then passed into the hands of the Mallory family when their
daughter Dyonisia Tempest married William Mallory, Lord of Hutton
Conyers. As Dyonisia was heiress to Studley Royal as well as Washington
Manor, upon their marriage William Mallory became Lord of Hutton
Conyers, Lord of Studley Royal and Lord of Washington Manor."

Certainly inadequate, but serves to render self-evident the fact that
Eleanor (Washington) Tempest (d.1451), heiress of a moiety of
Washington, Co. Durham, could not be a daughter of the Sir William
Washington (d. 1290) who married Margaret de Morville.

I regret my absence form the Newberry Library where I can remember a
monograph on the early Washingtons. Will try to unearth a copy here on
the West Coast.

Tony Hoskins


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Martin

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Martin » 09 sep 2007 01:10:08

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:RGiEi.12$FF5.100@eagle.america.net...
"Surreyman", like most broken-down Englishmen, with many frustrations,
wants
to tie his lineage to a Noble, Royal or Retainer -- as in "Robert le
Despenser".

He wants to find such links for his own aggrandizement -- whereas I do it
for the FUN of it -- realizing that such descents are available to
millions
who are willing to do the tracing.

TENS of MILLIONS of us are descended from William The Conqueror himself --
so, making some silly-buggers statement about an invented Companion of the
Conqueror is ludicrous -- but amusing -- and "Surreyman" provides Fair
Entertainment -- although he's not a Top Banana, such as Stewart.

Telling us about a "Robert le Despenser" that someone ELSE made up and
trying to hook himself to it is just as bad as inventing a Companion of
the Conqueror himself.

This is a bit rich to say the least, coming from someone who changed his
name to claim he was related to British aristocracy, and has referred to
Princess Diana as "cousin Diana", Winston Churchill as "uncle" and the Black
Prince as "great uncle Edward"!

To aggrandise you David would take a miracle, whoever's blood trickles
through your withered veins. Even if you were related to English royalty
past or present, it would do nothing for your standing whatsoever... or
denigrate them by association. You are what you are, which I think everyone
can see is somewhat less than 'noble' in any way!

It is of course interesting fun finding out about your ancestors, but there
it ends. Knowing you are related to someone does not make you *them*, or
indulge you with their intelligence, attributes or tendencies... I'm very
glad to say!

Martin

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Martin » 09 sep 2007 01:29:23

"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fbul9r$ocp$1@registered.motzarella.org...
"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fbujb4$rlq$1@reader1.panix.com...
In alt.history.british William Black <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1189204791.648522.13030@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
As Hovite stated earlier:

After Sir Piers de Gavaston was beheaded,

I thought he just got run through at Pontefract Castle, a depressing
place
to die...


bereft King Edward II found
solace in the arms of Hugh Despenser the Younger.

Well no.

There's a gap.

Part of this gap is filled by The battle of Bannockburn.

So there's lots going on...


This displeased the
Queen and she was vengeful.

Not exactly.

She was shagging a nasty piece of work called Mortimer at the time and it
was an even chance who'd get murdered by the other.

That's the nice thing about the story of Edward II.

Not a single person comes out of it with any credit at all.

Eddy III seems to have been the last one standing, if
not the actual winner.

'Winner' isn't exactly how I'd describe a man who locked his mum up in a
nunnery and hung her boyfriend (without the benefit of a trial)

I thought she was sent off to Castle Rising in Norfolk (a 'secure retirement
home' of the time). Her ghost is apparently still seen running dementedly
along the battlements, tearing her hair out. I must admit, it looks a very
dull place to end your days, very 'Norman' and functional.

As for Mortimer, his ghost still haunts the dismal dungeon above the Trip to
Jerusalem pub in Nottingham 'tis said - a very spooky place indeed, worth a
visit. I didn't hear the unfortunate Roger pacing restlessly, but even so...
perhaps 'Most haunted' should check it out?

Ed III did well in some ways, his funeral monument probably being the best
one of a fairytale King ever made. Never good with women though...

He went on to start the Hundred Years War, preside over the Black Death.
introduced the 'Statute of Labourers', probably the cause of the
Peasant's Revolt (and, let's be honest here, Socialism in England,
still, every cloud...) and started off the first serious attempt by the
English to conquer Ireland, introduced summary justice and then had the
unmitigated gall to introduce the Treason Act!

And the Order of the Garter... Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense etc.
Bit kinky if you ask me...
Tom Crosfield was not impressed by EdIII's 'legal reforms', that's for sure!

Like his dad he was a serious chaser after sex, but at least they were
female this time, although one of them nicked all his rings as he lay
dying....

What's positive about him?

Well, he wasn't gay, he threw the Papal Courts out of England and he made
English the normal language for official business, at least, some of the
time...

And thrashed the French at Crecy, introduced the first artillery, and
organised the first proper BEF (or should I say 'EEF'?) to lay waste to the
continent. Not all bad...

Shame about the BP, that seems to have broken him somehow? On a more
negative point, he was really to blame for the Wars of the Roses, by having
too many sons and too few honours to bestow on them. He did his duty as a
King even so I reckon.

Cheers
Martin

David

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av David » 09 sep 2007 02:37:34

On Sep 8, 7:29 pm, "Martin" <martin1471spam...@outgun.com> wrote:

And the Order of the Garter... Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense etc.
Bit kinky if you ask me...

Shame on you for thinking evil of it!
:)

Gjest

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 02:59:26

On Sep 7, 1:38 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
"Surreyman", like most broken-down Englishmen, with many frustrations, wants
to tie his lineage to a Noble, Royal or Retainer -- as in "Robert le
Despenser".

He wants to find such links for his own aggrandizement -- whereas I do it
for the FUN of it -- realizing that such descents are available to millions
who are willing to do the tracing.

TENS of MILLIONS of us are descended from William The Conqueror himself --
so, making some silly-buggers statement about an invented Companion of the
Conqueror is ludicrous -- but amusing -- and "Surreyman" provides Fair
Entertainment -- although he's not a Top Banana, such as Stewart.

Telling us about a "Robert le Despenser" that someone ELSE made up and
trying to hook himself to it is just as bad as inventing a Companion of the
Conqueror himself.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"David" <ds...@softhome.net> wrote in message

news:1189196550.072687.296770@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...



On Sep 7, 3:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Bingo!

This "Robert le Despenser" as a Companion Of The Conqueror sounds like
wishful thinking on "Surreyman's" part.

Par For The Course...

DSH

That's a little harsh -- the story that a Spencer came over with
William the Conqueror may be erroneous, or even fraudulent, but it's
not as if Surreyman is personally making it up.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some of us are descended from all 3 groups: the Saxons (Edward's line
albeit not Edward the Confessor himself), Harold & William. Similarly,
both the Red Rose & the White Rose. No wonder our souls are scattered.

Tim

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Tim » 09 sep 2007 03:02:23

On Sep 8, 9:37 pm, David <ds...@softhome.net> wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:29 pm, "Martin" <martin1471spam...@outgun.com> wrote:

And the Order of the Garter... Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense etc.
Bit kinky if you ask me...

Shame on you for thinking evil of it!
:)

Is there any record of who fought on the Anglo-Saxon side at the
Battle of Hastings? Harold Godwinson's younger brothers the Earls
Leofwyne and Gyrthe died in battle there along with Harold. Gyrthe was
Earl of East Anglia and I think that Anglo-Saxon title has been
vacant ever since.

Lockehead

Re: Jasper Tudor's bastard daughter, Ellen, wife of William

Legg inn av Lockehead » 09 sep 2007 04:24:04

On Sep 7, 4:12 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

About a week ago, I submitted various corrections and additions to the
ODNB staff regarding Jasper Tudor's illegitimate daughter, Ellen
Gardiner, and her family. This morning I received a very cordial
reply from Mark Curthoys, Research Editor for Oxford DNB, informing me
that my information will be referred to their specialist advisers on
the relevant periods, with a view to making adjustments as appropriate
in due course.

In other words, if you find a correction to ODNB, by all means, submit
it to the staff for review.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF E-MAIL FROM MARK CURTHOYS

Dear Mr Richardson

Thank you very much indeed for sending this extremely helpful
information on Jasper Tudor and Thomas Gardiner.

We will ensure that the information is referred to our specialist
advisers on the relevant periods, with a view to making adjustments as
appropriate in due course (this is inevitably a gradual process).

In the meantime, we are very grateful to you for setting out the data
in such detail.

Yours sincerely
Mark Curthoys
---------------
Research Editor
Oxford DNB


But............................before that thread was decimated by
sniping, I thought that it was agreed that William Gardiner did,
indeed have more than one son, Thomas. This was proven by the fact
that the challenge to his will/estate was brought by his "children".
If he only had one son (Thomas), it would have been brought by "his
only son, Thomas"...correct?

Lockehead

Re: Jasper Tudor's bastard daughter, Ellen, wife of William

Legg inn av Lockehead » 09 sep 2007 04:43:43

On Sep 8, 11:24 pm, Lockehead <franklo...@mris.com> wrote:
On Sep 7, 4:12 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:





Dear Newsgroup ~

About a week ago, I submitted various corrections and additions to the
ODNB staff regarding Jasper Tudor's illegitimate daughter, Ellen
Gardiner, and her family. This morning I received a very cordial
reply from Mark Curthoys, Research Editor for Oxford DNB, informing me
that my information will be referred to their specialist advisers on
the relevant periods, with a view to making adjustments as appropriate
in due course.

In other words, if you find a correction to ODNB, by all means, submit
it to the staff for review.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF E-MAIL FROM MARK CURTHOYS

Dear Mr Richardson

Thank you very much indeed for sending this extremely helpful
information on Jasper Tudor and Thomas Gardiner.

We will ensure that the information is referred to our specialist
advisers on the relevant periods, with a view to making adjustments as
appropriate in due course (this is inevitably a gradual process).

In the meantime, we are very grateful to you for setting out the data
in such detail.

Yours sincerely
Mark Curthoys
---------------
Research Editor
Oxford DNB

But............................before that thread was decimated by
sniping, I thought that it was agreed that William Gardiner did,
indeed have more than one son, Thomas. This was proven by the fact
that the challenge to his will/estate was brought by his "children".
If he only had one son (Thomas), it would have been brought by "his
only son, Thomas"...correct?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here is the proof I was talking about:

"Peter Watson, of London, draper, and William Sybson, husband of
Ellen, late the wife of William Gardyner v the Mayor, Aldermen, and
Sheriffs of London: an action by the children of William Gardyner,
deceased, to recover the portion of his son Thomas, who has entered
Westminster abbey" (C 1/252/12, dated 1501-1502).


We also see from this that William Gardiner had "children", not just
a
son Thomas.

Gjest

Re: Brits vs. Normans [was Re: Why This Continuing Loony Inf

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 05:16:02

Dear Fellow Listers,
Hardicanute (Canute III), King of Denmark and
England was one of history`s more obnoxious teenage kings. He drank too much
and did not take women at all seriously so He has no known issue. aged
twenty-four at his death in 1042, He had made a bet with Magnus I, the equally young
king of Norway that if They should die without issue that the survivor should
have all the possessions of the loser. Magnus I survived until 1047 and his
co-ruler since 1046 Harald III took up the claim at the urging of King Harold
II`s brother Tostig, the exiled Earl of Northumbria in 1066. Harald III`s
army consisted principally of Norwegians, Danes, disgruntled Sazons, Manx,
Hebrideans, Orkneyans, Irish , Scots and possibly even a few Greeks as He had
served as a mercenary in Empress Zoe`s army for around fifteen yrears. Stamford
Bridge was perhaps the largest piece of luck Duke William II of Normandy had at
Senlac. It allowed his troops to be well rested when the battle weary and
battered Saxon army advanced.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Margaret Bauer

Re: Rolle family of Stevenstone

Legg inn av Margaret Bauer » 09 sep 2007 05:36:13

Hi Everyone

Would anyone know anything about the ROLLE family who were at Stevenstone,
(their estate) near St Giles in the Wood in Devon.
I have an Amelia Fortescue (the daughter of Richard Fortescue of Holcombe, -
whose father also Richard was killed at the 1st battle of St Albans 1455).
This Amelia Fortescue married a John Rolle of Stevenstone and I would like
to find who his parents were to round that part of my story off.
Amelia was born somewhere about 1464 at Punsborne and at first I assumed
that this John Rolle might have been born about 1460 maybe, but cannot find
a John that seems to have been at "Stevenstone" that far back as that
(assuming he is a few years the elder of Amelia at this stage).
I can find no children to this Amelia and John Rolle, so I even wonder if
she might have been a second wife or something like that.
From what I can locate (mainly from the Internet) it appears that a George
Rolle who was married to a Eleanor Dacres, is as far back as most have

achieved but of course I need some records that reach back into the 1400s.

Thankyou
Margaret Bauer
*************************
Margaret Bauer
Qld, Australia.
bauerm@tpg.com.au
*************************

Alianore

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Alianore » 09 sep 2007 06:12:40

On Sep 8, 11:08 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
"Turenne" <richard.licht...@virgin.net> wrote in message

news:1189281684.421800.196330@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...



William Black wrote:

.....preside over the Black Death.

Bit harsh William; he was hardly the Pied Piper.

He was unlucky in his parents as well (assumingEdward IIwas actually his
father)

That's his problem, after all, as Mel Brooks says "It's good to be the
king..."

Only sometimes it isn't...

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Oh, there's little doubt that Edward II was Edward III's father.
Edward II was in York with Queen Isabella at the right time to
conceive him. No reason at all to think otherwise.

Edward III didn't lock his mother up in a nunnery, or at Castle
Rising. He didn't lock her up anywhere. Castle Rising was merely her
favourite residence, but she spent a lot of time travelling around her
vast estates, and visited court sometimes. She died at Hertford
Castle in August 1358.

Normandy

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Normandy » 09 sep 2007 06:49:52

"Tim" <A.Windemere@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1189303343.338041.135660@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 8, 9:37 pm, David <ds...@softhome.net> wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:29 pm, "Martin" <martin1471spam...@outgun.com> wrote:

And the Order of the Garter... Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense etc.
Bit kinky if you ask me...

Shame on you for thinking evil of it!
:)

Is there any record of who fought on the Anglo-Saxon side at the
Battle of Hastings? Harold Godwinson's younger brothers the Earls
Leofwyne and Gyrthe died in battle there along with Harold. Gyrthe was
Earl of East Anglia and I think that Anglo-Saxon title has been
vacant ever since.

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is the only English source I know of and its
description is brief. William of Poitiers records 4,000 English dead but
names only a few in Gesta Guillelmi II ducis Normannorum,.

Normandy

>

Tim

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Tim » 09 sep 2007 06:52:02

On Sep 9, 1:12 am, Alianore <warner.kath...@googlemail.com> wrote:
On Sep 8, 11:08 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:





"Turenne" <richard.licht...@virgin.net> wrote in message

news:1189281684.421800.196330@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

William Black wrote:

.....preside over the Black Death.

Bit harsh William; he was hardly the Pied Piper.

He was unlucky in his parents as well (assumingEdward IIwas actually his
father)

That's his problem, after all, as Mel Brooks says "It's good to be the
king..."

Only sometimes it isn't...

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Oh, there's little doubt that Edward II was Edward III's father.
Edward II was in York with Queen Isabella at the right time to
conceive him. No reason at all to think otherwise.

Edward III didn't lock his mother up in a nunnery, or at Castle
Rising. He didn't lock her up anywhere. Castle Rising was merely her
favourite residence, but she spent a lot of time travelling around her
vast estates, and visited court sometimes. She died at Hertford
Castle in August 1358.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Edward II and Isabella had three other children (John, Eleanor, and
Joanna). Edward also had an illegitimate son Adam who died in his
teens.

Alianore

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Alianore » 09 sep 2007 09:19:43

On Sep 9, 7:52 am, Tim <A.Windem...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 9, 1:12 am, Alianore <warner.kath...@googlemail.com> wrote:





On Sep 8, 11:08 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:

"Turenne" <richard.licht...@virgin.net> wrote in message

news:1189281684.421800.196330@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

William Black wrote:

.....preside over the Black Death.

Bit harsh William; he was hardly the Pied Piper.

He was unlucky in his parents as well (assumingEdward IIwas actually his
father)

That's his problem, after all, as Mel Brooks says "It's good to be the
king..."

Only sometimes it isn't...

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Oh, there's little doubt thatEdward IIwas Edward III's father.
Edward IIwas in York with Queen Isabella at the right time to
conceive him. No reason at all to think otherwise.

Edward III didn't lock his mother up in a nunnery, or at Castle
Rising. He didn't lock her up anywhere. Castle Rising was merely her
favourite residence, but she spent a lot of time travelling around her
vast estates, and visited court sometimes. She died at Hertford
Castle in August 1358.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Edward IIand Isabella had three other children (John, Eleanor, and
Joanna). Edward also had an illegitimate son Adam who died in his
teens.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, and the itineraries of Edward II and Isabella show that they were
together at the right time to conceive all four children. I've seen
people speculating that Roger Mortimer might have been the father of
Isabella's children, but he was in Ireland during the conception
periods of Edward II and Isabella' three eldest children.

Adam is called "Ade filio domini Regis bastardo" and was provided with
equipment during the Scots campaign of 1322. He was accompanied by
his tutor Hugh Chastilloun, and seems to have died during the
campaign, probably in his early or mid teens.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 sep 2007 09:27:12

Yes, Edward II seems to have been an accomplished switch hitter -- enjoying
sex with both men and women.

Or, was he just "doing his duty" in fathering the four legitimate children?

Adam the Bastard would provide some tentative evidence for the
switch-hitter, bisexual theory for Edward II.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Alianore" <warner.kathryn@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1189325983.923175.89450@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

Edward II and Isabella had three other children (John, Eleanor, and
Joanna). Edward also had an illegitimate son Adam who died in his
teens.- Hide quoted text -

Yes, and the itineraries of Edward II and Isabella show that they were
together at the right time to conceive all four children. I've seen
people speculating that Roger Mortimer might have been the father of
Isabella's children, but he was in Ireland during the conception
periods of Edward II and Isabella' three eldest children.

Adam is called "Ade filio domini Regis bastardo" and was provided with
equipment during the Scots campaign of 1322. He was accompanied by
his tutor Hugh Chastilloun, and seems to have died during the
campaign, probably in his early or mid teens.

Normandy

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Normandy » 09 sep 2007 11:05:54

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
T8OEi.24$DU5.35@eagle.america.net...
Yes, Edward II seems to have been an accomplished switch hitter --
enjoying sex with both men and women.

Or, was he just "doing his duty" in fathering the four legitimate
children?

Adam the Bastard would provide some tentative evidence for the
switch-hitter, bisexual theory for Edward II.

In what way would a bastard child support the theory of a bi-sexual?


Normandy

a.spencer3

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av a.spencer3 » 09 sep 2007 11:34:58

<lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1189303166.154785.106570@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 7, 1:38 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
"Surreyman", like most broken-down Englishmen, with many frustrations,
wants
to tie his lineage to a Noble, Royal or Retainer -- as in "Robert le
Despenser".

He wants to find such links for his own aggrandizement -- whereas I do
it
for the FUN of it -- realizing that such descents are available to
millions
who are willing to do the tracing.

TENS of MILLIONS of us are descended from William The Conqueror
himself --
so, making some silly-buggers statement about an invented Companion of
the
Conqueror is ludicrous -- but amusing -- and "Surreyman" provides Fair
Entertainment -- although he's not a Top Banana, such as Stewart.

Telling us about a "Robert le Despenser" that someone ELSE made up and
trying to hook himself to it is just as bad as inventing a Companion of
the
Conqueror himself.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"David" <ds...@softhome.net> wrote in message

news:1189196550.072687.296770@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...



On Sep 7, 3:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Bingo!

This "Robert le Despenser" as a Companion Of The Conqueror sounds
like
wishful thinking on "Surreyman's" part.

Par For The Course...

DSH

That's a little harsh -- the story that a Spencer came over with
William the Conqueror may be erroneous, or even fraudulent, but it's
not as if Surreyman is personally making it up.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some of us are descended from all 3 groups: the Saxons (Edward's line
albeit not Edward the Confessor himself), Harold & William. Similarly,
both the Red Rose & the White Rose. No wonder our souls are scattered.


Yep.
Stretching actual knowledge a bit, my Dad's Spencers were lording it in
Caerphilly Castle whilst my Mum's Lewises were camped in their mud huts
outside the walls! :-))

Surreyman

Dana S. Leslie

Danish Ordinals (was: Re: Brits vs. Normans [was Re: Why Thi

Legg inn av Dana S. Leslie » 09 sep 2007 14:41:11

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2030.1189307181.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear Fellow Listers,
Hardicanute (Canute III), King of Denmark
and
England was one of history`s more obnoxious teenage kings. He drank too
much

I have often seen Canute The Great counted as Canute I of both Denmark and
England. so, if Hardicanute is counted as Canute III of Denmark, who counts
as Canute II of Denmark?


Thank you.
--


Blessed Be,

Dana

D. S. Leslie, née C. R. Guttman
Email: DSLeslie@alumni.princeton.edu
Skype: dsleslie
Web: ÞE OL' PHILOSOPHIE SHOPPE
Your Source for Discounted Ideas
http://members.cox.net/dsleslie2/

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 sep 2007 15:17:24

Most reputable geologists [sic] will tell you that it is almost impossible
to identify your ancestors with any reliability in Europe before the mid
13th century.

Hilarious!

Most geologists know damned little about GENEALOGY and are generally
rock-headed when it comes to dealing with Royal & Noble European Genealogy.

None of the lists compiled on William's companions should be treated with
out suspicion. I have a list of 18 generations of my family, including my
children, but how can anyone say with certainty that it is valid? A man
is only sure of his mother.

Normandy

Worthless, Tongue-Flapping Bromide...

And Untrue...

NO, a man cannot be CERTAIN he knows who his mother is.

Only Death & Taxes are "certain".

As to the list I posted, many of us have MULTIPLE descents from 12 or so of
those 20.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

taf

Re: Danish Ordinals (was: Re: Brits vs. Normans [was Re: Why

Legg inn av taf » 09 sep 2007 15:39:31

On Sep 9, 6:41 am, "Dana S. Leslie" <dsles...@alumni.princeton.edu>
wrote:
Jwc1...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.2030.1189307181.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Dear Fellow Listers,
Hardicanute (Canute III), King of Denmark
and
England was one of history`s more obnoxious teenage kings. He drank too
much

I have often seen Canute The Great counted as Canute I of both Denmark and
England. so, if Hardicanute is counted as Canute III of Denmark, who counts
as Canute II of Denmark?


The numbering of Scandinavian kings is not consistent, being based on
fictional kings lists and other such sources. In this particular case
you are mixing two distinct numberings. In the one, Canute is the
first Cnut of Denmark (and the only one of England). In the other,
counting Hardicanute as a variant of Canute, Hardicanute is III,
Canute is II, and his great grandfather, the father of Gorm, also
interpreted as being Hardicnut, would be Canute I.

taf

William Black

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av William Black » 09 sep 2007 15:41:06

"Martin" <martin1471spamfck@outgun.com> wrote in message
news:D7HEi.53934$h11.41829@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...

As for Mortimer, his ghost still haunts the dismal dungeon above the Trip
to Jerusalem pub in Nottingham 'tis said - a very spooky place indeed,
worth a visit. I didn't hear the unfortunate Roger pacing restlessly, but
even so... perhaps 'Most haunted' should check it out?

I love that pub.

I have this imagine of the Sherriff of Nottingham throwing Robin Hood down
into the dungeon and him picking himself up and hearing the question...

"Your usual Mr 'old?"

I think it was there before the castle was built on top of it.


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

taf

Re: Jasper Tudor's bastard daughter, Ellen, wife of William

Legg inn av taf » 09 sep 2007 15:55:26

On Sep 8, 8:43 pm, Lockehead <franklo...@mris.com> wrote:

Here is the proof I was talking about:

"Peter Watson, of London, draper, and William Sybson, husband of
Ellen, late the wife of William Gardyner v the Mayor, Aldermen, and
Sheriffs of London: an action by the children of William Gardyner,
deceased, to recover the portion of his son Thomas, who has entered
Westminster abbey" (C 1/252/12, dated 1501-1502).

We also see from this that William Gardiner had "children", not just
a
son Thomas.

Yes, it is clear that William had more than one child. What it doesn't
show is how many children Ellen had.

taf

Melvyn Douglass

Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Wills of Sir John Cornwall, L

Legg inn av Melvyn Douglass » 09 sep 2007 16:30:06

What was the date the wills were proven? (I don't have ready access to the sources you cited). Thanks.

Melvyn Douglass
Houston, TX


Douglas Richardson <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 253254 (sub Fanhope) includes a good
account of the life history of Sir John Cornwall, Lord Fanhope, who
died in 1443. According to Complete Peerage, Lord Fanhope left a will
dated 10 December 1443, directing burial in the Friars Preachers,
Ludgate.

According to the source cited below, however, Lord Fanhope actually
left two wills, one dated dated 1 April 1437 and the other dated 10
Dec. 1443, both of which were probated. Under the terms of the first
will, a life rent of 40 marks payable out of certain London properties
was devoted to prayers for his soul.

Source: Beaven, Reports of Cases in Chancery, 2 (1841): 588-604.

This same addition needs to be made to Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 200
(sub Exeter).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jan Böhme

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Jan Böhme » 09 sep 2007 17:39:18

On 9 Sep, 12:05, "Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

In what way would a bastard child support the theory of a bi-sexual?

Inasmuch as one would not normally sire bastards out of a sense of
duty - as might be imagined for siring legitimate heirs - but only
because one really enjoyed the exercise, I suppose.

Jan Böhme

Gjest

Re: Danish Ordinals (was: Re: Brits vs. Normans [was Re: Why

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 18:20:05

Dear Dana,
Canute of England is counted as Canute II , not I. Canute I
was also known as Hardicanute and in Sir Iain Moncreiffe`s 1982 book " Royal
Highness : Ancestry of the Royal Child " p 110 ,He is called King of Sjaelland
, which was a local Danish kingdon and died 884, his son Frotho d 885
succeeded , his son Harald II died 899 succeeded and his son is given as Gorm died
936 died as King sof all Denmark. I think Stewart Baldwin , Todd Farmerie and
other knowledgable persons on this list deny, the rxistence of this 1st
Hardicanute / Canute, but if there is a Canute I , he is considered to have been it.
there weew also Saint Canute IV reigned 1080-1086 , son of Canute II`s
Sweyn II of Denmark (reigned 1047-1074) who was son of that King`s sister Estrith
/ Astrid by her husbsand Ulf., Canute V (reigned 1154-1157),son of Magnus,
King of Sweden (reigned 1129-1134) who owed his position to being married to
a daughter of King Inge I of Sweden. Magnus father Niels was King of Denmark
(1104-1134), an illegitimate son of Sweyn II of Denmark., Canute Lavard , King
of Wenden ( died 1131) was a son of Sweyn II`s illegitimate son King Eric I
(reigned 1095- died 1103), Canute, King of Wenden was the father of Valdemar
I, King of Denmark (reigned 1157-1182), who was the father of King Canute VI
(reigned 1182- 1202) whose brother King Valdemar II (reigned 1202- 1241) is the
ancestor of all Danish Kings to the present. Maclagan and Louda " Heraldry
of the Royal Families of Europe " tables 16 , 17) See Moncreiffe " Royal
Hignness" Table 36 Denmark for a line from Valdemar II to Christian I of
Oldenburg, King of Denmark via King Valdemar II`s son King Christopher I of Denmark,
his son King Eric V of Denmark, his daughter Richilda , wife of Nicholas II,
Count of Werle - Parchim, their daughter Sophia of Werle-Parchim married
Gerhard III, Count of Holstein-Rendsburg, their son Heinrich II, Count of Holstein -
Rendsburg, his son Gerhard VI, Count of Holstein- Rendsburg and Duke of
Schleswig, his daughter Hedwig of Schleswig married Dietrich II the Happy, Count of
Oldenburg, their son became King Christian I of Denmark, Norway and for a
time Sweden.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

John Briggs

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av John Briggs » 09 sep 2007 18:23:38

lostcooper@yahoo.com wrote:
On Sep 7, 1:38 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
"Surreyman", like most broken-down Englishmen, with many
frustrations, wants to tie his lineage to a Noble, Royal or Retainer
-- as in "Robert le Despenser".

He wants to find such links for his own aggrandizement -- whereas I
do it for the FUN of it -- realizing that such descents are
available to millions who are willing to do the tracing.

TENS of MILLIONS of us are descended from William The Conqueror
himself -- so, making some silly-buggers statement about an invented
Companion of the Conqueror is ludicrous -- but amusing -- and
"Surreyman" provides Fair Entertainment -- although he's not a Top
Banana, such as Stewart.

Telling us about a "Robert le Despenser" that someone ELSE made up
and trying to hook himself to it is just as bad as inventing a
Companion of the Conqueror himself.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"David" <ds...@softhome.net> wrote in message

news:1189196550.072687.296770@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...



On Sep 7, 3:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Bingo!

This "Robert le Despenser" as a Companion Of The Conqueror sounds
like wishful thinking on "Surreyman's" part.

Par For The Course...

DSH

That's a little harsh -- the story that a Spencer came over with
William the Conqueror may be erroneous, or even fraudulent, but it's
not as if Surreyman is personally making it up.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some of us are descended from all 3 groups: the Saxons (Edward's line
albeit not Edward the Confessor himself), Harold & William. Similarly,
both the Red Rose & the White Rose. No wonder our souls are scattered.

The roses seem to have been invented by Henry VII, the wars of the roses by
Shakespeare, and the phrase "Wars of the Roses" by Sir Walter Scott...
--
John Briggs

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 19:45:06

The Problem with deciding who was and was not present at Senlac for the
October battle is the people who would have been present who didn`t rate a mention,
such as Sailors, Men- at- arms, Followers of ignoble blood whose names were
they even known wouldn`t be recorded. Robert de Comines probably owed his
Earldom of Northumbria to being Queen Maud of Flanders` chief bodyguard rather than
any deeds accomplished at Senlac as He doesn`t appear to have been present.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Hovite

Re: Danish Ordinals (was: Re: Brits vs. Normans [was Re: Why

Legg inn av Hovite » 09 sep 2007 19:51:23

On Sep 9, 2:41 pm, "Dana S. Leslie"
I have often seen Canute The Great counted as Canute I of both Denmark and
England. so, if Hardicanute is counted as Canute III of Denmark, who counts
as Canute II of Denmark?

In England, Canute and Hardicanute are treated as distinct names, but
in Denmark it appears that they are not. It is less confusing if you
think of the English Canute as Canute the Great. He was the son of
Sweyn Forkbeard, who was the son of Harald Bluetooth, son of Gorm the
Old. Danish histories and genealogies often start with Gorm because it
is with his reign that Denmark emerges from myths and legends into
history. But Denmark certainly had many Kings before Gorm, and it is
possible (but not certain) that one of them was another Hardicanute.

Gjest

Re: children of Richard, 1st Baron Rich

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 19:55:42

On Sep 9, 11:36 am, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/9/2007 11:05:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

lostcoo...@yahoo.com writes:

Only two sons are listed, neither
of whom show a marriage to "Jane or Ann Machell" as is shown for
"Edward" on the Ancestry site.

-----------------
Oops I said "is not a site" what I meant to say is that Ancestry is "not a
SOURCE" but rather a repository of sources.

Will

************************************** See what's new athttp://www.aol.com

Thank you for your response. Yes, I know - I would never use it as a
source by itself. The information came from a variety of family trees
posted by various people and from the strange composite One World Tree
that someone (?) puts together from the family trees. I browse through
the stuff to see what people think about the lines, discard most of it
as utterly impossible (parents younger than their grandchildren,
"living" entries in the medieval period, etc.), and use the possible
as a guide to search more reliable places (such as the SGM archives,
Genealogics, CP, etc.). Finally I pose the question to SGM generally.
If nothing turns up to support the existence of Edward, for example,
he goes into a separate file but not onto my tree. I do find the
document search feature useful at Ancestry.com, although very little
is older than, say, the late 18th Century. Thanks, Bronwen

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Children Of Richard, 1st Baron Rich

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 sep 2007 20:45:14

One former regular here once said he was a descendant of Richard Rich.

DSH

<lostcooper@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1189360849.050252.231860@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

Some families who post their trees on Ancestry.com claim that Richard
Rich (d.1567) and Elizabeth Jenks (d. 1558) had a son, Edward (c.
1550-1600). On the usual credible websites, even Stirnet, I find no
"Edward" listed among the children. Only two sons are listed, neither
of whom show a marriage to "Jane or Ann Machell" as is shown for
"Edward" on the Ancestry site. Does anyone have some special insight
or a crystal ball that suggests Edward may or may not have existed? Or
that he may have existed but with different parents? Or that he might
be a bastard? Thanks - Bronwen

Gjest

Re: children of Richard, 1st Baron Rich

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 20:51:03

In a message dated 9/9/2007 11:05:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lostcooper@yahoo.com writes:

Only two sons are listed, neither
of whom show a marriage to "Jane or Ann Machell" as is shown for
"Edward" on the Ancestry site.


-----------
Ancestry is not a site, but rather a repository. Like a library is a
repository of many works, ancestry is a repository of many works.

Do you perhaps mean you've found this on the Ancestry World Tree? Or the One
World Tree?



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 20:52:02

Dear Normandy,
Perhaps He was forced to have a sexual encounter
with a woman who wasn`t his wife, otherwise I would think He was perhaps
bisexual, assuming the homosexual rumors were only that.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
ps How many kids did his reputed lover Hugh III le De Spencer, Earl of
Gloucester have by his wife Eleanor de Clare ? Richardson in MCA p 276 (DeSpencer)
lists four sons and five daughters.



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Gjest

Re: children of Richard, 1st Baron Rich

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 20:53:03

In a message dated 9/9/2007 11:05:17 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lostcooper@yahoo.com writes:

Only two sons are listed, neither
of whom show a marriage to "Jane or Ann Machell" as is shown for
"Edward" on the Ancestry site.


-----------------
Oops I said "is not a site" what I meant to say is that Ancestry is "not a
SOURCE" but rather a repository of sources.

Will



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

John Briggs

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av John Briggs » 09 sep 2007 20:53:47

David wrote:
On Sep 9, 12:23 pm, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

The roses seem to have been invented by Henry VII, the wars of the
roses by Shakespeare, and the phrase "Wars of the Roses" by Sir
Walter Scott...

The White Rose was a genuine heraldic badge of the House of York.

Yes, of course.

The use of the red rose by the Lancastrians is, IIRC, a bit more dubious.

It was a genuine Lancastrian badge - it just wasn't used.

After Henry VII's marriage to Elizabeth of York, a multicolored "Tudor
rose" was used to indicate the (hopeful) reconciliation of the
factions.

It was originally half-and-half - as on a wall painting at Windsor, and the
ceiling painting at Boxgrove Priory.

The idea that there was a specific point in time at which
representatives of the York and Lancaster houses chose roses as
badges, as represented in Shakespeare's Henry VI Part 1, Act 2 scene
4, is an attractive fiction.

You do realise that it was performed at "The Rose" playhouse, don't you?

And that the Temple Garden, where this is supposed to have taken place, had
planted a rose garden the year before the play's production?
--
John Briggs

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 sep 2007 21:03:06

Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:

"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a very low
birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have practiced lots
of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions -- and more homosexuals
ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g>

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Jack Linthicum

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 09 sep 2007 21:07:29

On Sep 9, 4:03 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:
"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a very low
birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child families".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have practiced lots
of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions -- and more homosexuals
ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Romney is a Mormon, people who believe fewer than ten children
indicates one of the partners is infertile. They will adopt to fill
out their quota.

Gjest

Re: children of Richard, 1st Baron Rich

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 21:12:04

In a message dated 9/9/2007 12:00:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lostcooper@yahoo.com writes:

.. I do find the
document search feature useful at Ancestry.com, although very little
is older than, say, the late 18th Century. Thanks, Bronwen


-------------------
What do you mean? You mean a document search feature attached to the One
World Tree?

One World Tree is a composite. It's formed by submitted trees created by
people, *plus* automatic matching software. So if the software finds a John
Brown married to a Susannah Holderness, it puts them together into one family,
thus linking your Gedcom data, to my Gedcom data, for example.

The ultimate goal of One World Tree, is that for any particular individual,
there should be only ONE database entry for that person, rather than hundreds
such as you see on the Ancestry World Tree.

It's a great concept, similar to what the LDS tried to do with the Ancestral
File. But it's limited, by the very nature of the fact that on certain
individuals, people have widely disparate views of that person's life, spouses,
children, etc.

It's also limited by the inadvertent errors the are inevitable in GEDCOMs,
that now become a bit more enshrined. Also you cannot *simply* tell the
difference between human-created connections and automatically-created
connections. I don't like that part.

Will



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 21:25:11

In a message dated 9/9/2007 12:10:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

He probably doesn't know the first 10 generations very well -- much less the

last 10 -- or the five or six in between.



-----------------------------
Frodo son of Gandulf son of Hobbita "of the Owl People"

daughter of Gundlehobitalekwinxletra "who was 250 cubits tall"

etc.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 21:25:11

In a message dated 9/9/2007 12:10:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

He probably doesn't know the first 10 generations very well -- much less the

last 10 -- or the five or six in between.



-----------------------------
Frodo son of Gandulf son of Hobbita "of the Owl People"

daughter of Gundlehobitalekwinxletra "who was 250 cubits tall"

etc.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 21:25:13

In a message dated 9/9/2007 12:10:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

He probably doesn't know the first 10 generations very well -- much less the

last 10 -- or the five or six in between.



-----------------------------
Frodo son of Gandulf son of Hobbita "of the Owl People"

daughter of Gundlehobitalekwinxletra "who was 250 cubits tall"

etc.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 21:25:17

In a message dated 9/9/2007 12:10:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

He probably doesn't know the first 10 generations very well -- much less the

last 10 -- or the five or six in between.



-----------------------------
Frodo son of Gandulf son of Hobbita "of the Owl People"

daughter of Gundlehobitalekwinxletra "who was 250 cubits tall"

etc.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Gjest

Re: Who Really Came With William The Conqueror In 1066?

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 sep 2007 21:25:23

In a message dated 9/9/2007 12:10:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

He probably doesn't know the first 10 generations very well -- much less the

last 10 -- or the five or six in between.



-----------------------------
Frodo son of Gandulf son of Hobbita "of the Owl People"

daughter of Gundlehobitalekwinxletra "who was 250 cubits tall"

etc.



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Vince

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av Vince » 09 sep 2007 21:34:05

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:

"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a
very low birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child
families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have
practiced lots of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions --
and more homosexuals ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in
Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Selective abortions of daughters produces the same effect
Dubya and Frau had one birth and twin daughters
Old Joe Kennedy could bang them out with the best

So what ?


Vince 5th of 7

La N

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av La N » 09 sep 2007 21:45:59

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:6eWdnfMij45RxXnbnZ2dnUVZ_vDinZ2d@comcast.com...
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:

"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a
very low birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child
families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have
practiced lots of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions --
and more homosexuals ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in
Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Selective abortions of daughters produces the same effect
Dubya and Frau had one birth and twin daughters
Old Joe Kennedy could bang them out with the best

So what ?


Vince 5th of 7


Me 1st of 7.

taf

Re: children of Richard, 1st Baron Rich

Legg inn av taf » 09 sep 2007 22:07:08

On Sep 9, 12:09 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

One World Tree is a composite. It's formed by submitted trees created by
people, *plus* automatic matching software. So if the software finds a John
Brown married to a Susannah Holderness, it puts them together into one family,
thus linking your Gedcom data, to my Gedcom data, for example.


It also puts together two Johns born in 1865, even of one was born in
Ohio and the other in Australia, or it may match a John married to a
Sarah with another John married to Sarah even if they lived 100 years
apart.

taf

Weatherlawyer

Hilarious bottled.

Legg inn av Weatherlawyer » 09 sep 2007 22:22:03

On Sep 9, 8:45 pm, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Vince" <fire...@firelaw.us> wrote in message

news:6eWdnfMij45RxXnbnZ2dnUVZ_vDinZ2d@comcast.com...



D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:

"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a
very low birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child
families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have
practiced lots of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions --
and more homosexuals ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in
Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Selective abortions of daughters produces the same effect
Dubya and Frau had one birth and twin daughters
Old Joe Kennedy could bang them out with the best

So what ?

Vince 5th of 7

Me 1st of 7.

God help me I read through all this thread.

Now there is nothing to wash out the thought of an Hines Dispenser
before I go to bed. Yeeeugh! Ghagh!

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 sep 2007 22:33:33

Let's see Pogue Brannigan produce documentary evidence that the Romneys
selectively aborted daughters in order to produce 5 sons.

No cheap innuendo will suffice.

DSH
------------------------------------------------

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:6eWdnfMij45RxXnbnZ2dnUVZ_vDinZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:

"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a
very low birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child
families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have
practiced lots of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions --
and more homosexuals ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in
Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Selective abortions of daughters produces the same effect.

taf

Re: Danish Ordinals (was: Re: Brits vs. Normans [was Re: Why

Legg inn av taf » 09 sep 2007 22:35:28

On Sep 9, 9:17 am, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Dana,
Canute of England is counted as Canute II , not I. Canute I
was also known as Hardicanute and in Sir Iain Moncreiffe`s 1982 book " Royal
Highness : Ancestry of the Royal Child " p 110 ,He is called King of Sjaelland
, which was a local Danish kingdon and died 884, his son Frotho d 885
succeeded , his son Harald II died 899 succeeded and his son is given as Gorm died
936 died as King sof all Denmark. I think Stewart Baldwin , Todd Farmerie and
other knowledgable persons on this list deny, the rxistence of this 1st
Hardicanute / Canute, but if there is a Canute I , he is considered to have been it.


This perhaps needs clarifying. This Hardicanute king of "Sjaeland" and
the line through Frotho and Harald II are entirely unsupported by the
historical record, as are the dates given them. They are completely
absent from contemporary and near-contemporary accounts, only to
appear in those written centuries later. That does not stop their use
in counting Cnuts and Haralds by some 'historians'. However, as I said
in my other post, there is a Harthacnut who some serious historians
accept, prior to Canute. One chronicler calls Gorm by the name
Hardecnudth Vurm, while a second, based on information given by
Canute's nephew, indicates that Gorm was son of Hardegon, son of
Svein. Taken together, these historians interpret Hardecnudth Vurm as
meaning Gorm Hardecnutsson, and Hardegon equivalent to this father of
Gorm.

taf

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 sep 2007 22:46:44

Hilarious!

Her PARENTS weren't Wing-Nut "Liberals" -- neither were Brannigan's, who
were both Naval Officers.

DSH

"La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bYYEi.51163$vP5.16004@edtnps90...
"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:6eWdnfMij45RxXnbnZ2dnUVZ_vDinZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:

"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a
very low birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child
families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have
practiced lots of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions --
and more homosexuals ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in
Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Selective abortions of daughters produces the same effect
Dubya and Frau had one birth and twin daughters
Old Joe Kennedy could bang them out with the best

So what ?


Vince 5th of 7


Me 1st of 7.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 09 sep 2007 23:20:44

She will share the power with him -- sub rosa.

You can bank on it.

DSH

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2070.1189375518.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Dear Spencer,

If Hilary Clinton is in fact elected , I seriously
doubt Bill will be more than First Gentleman. Hilary couldn`t bear to
share her
power, nor should she if she does get elected.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: Polygamy Prominent in GOP Presidential Hopeful Mitt Romn

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 sep 2007 00:11:04

Dear Spencer,
If Hilary Clinton is in fact elected , I seriously
doubt Bill will be more than First Gentleman. Hilary couldn`t bear to share her
power, nor should she if she does get elected.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Martin

Re: Duke of Buccleuch Dies

Legg inn av Martin » 10 sep 2007 00:45:58

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:u_VEi.34525$mZ5.21696@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
lostcooper@yahoo.com wrote:
On Sep 7, 1:38 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
"Surreyman", like most broken-down Englishmen, with many
frustrations, wants to tie his lineage to a Noble, Royal or Retainer
-- as in "Robert le Despenser".

He wants to find such links for his own aggrandizement -- whereas I
do it for the FUN of it -- realizing that such descents are
available to millions who are willing to do the tracing.

TENS of MILLIONS of us are descended from William The Conqueror
himself -- so, making some silly-buggers statement about an invented
Companion of the Conqueror is ludicrous -- but amusing -- and
"Surreyman" provides Fair Entertainment -- although he's not a Top
Banana, such as Stewart.

Telling us about a "Robert le Despenser" that someone ELSE made up
and trying to hook himself to it is just as bad as inventing a
Companion of the Conqueror himself.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"David" <ds...@softhome.net> wrote in message

news:1189196550.072687.296770@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...



On Sep 7, 3:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Bingo!

This "Robert le Despenser" as a Companion Of The Conqueror sounds
like wishful thinking on "Surreyman's" part.

Par For The Course...

DSH

That's a little harsh -- the story that a Spencer came over with
William the Conqueror may be erroneous, or even fraudulent, but it's
not as if Surreyman is personally making it up.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some of us are descended from all 3 groups: the Saxons (Edward's line
albeit not Edward the Confessor himself), Harold & William. Similarly,
both the Red Rose & the White Rose. No wonder our souls are scattered.

The roses seem to have been invented by Henry VII, the wars of the roses
by Shakespeare, and the phrase "Wars of the Roses" by Sir Walter Scott...

What we know as 'The Wars of the Roses' were known as the Cousins War (or
wars) at the time they were fought.

Vince

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av Vince » 10 sep 2007 00:46:27

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Let's see Pogue Brannigan produce documentary evidence that the Romneys
selectively aborted daughters in order to produce 5 sons.

No cheap innuendo will suffice.

DSH


I doubt it
and never said it

your claim was that production of sons proved virility
I simply presented an alternative explanation

Vince


------------------------------------------------
"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:6eWdnfMij45RxXnbnZ2dnUVZ_vDinZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:
"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a
very low birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child
families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have
practiced lots of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions --
and more homosexuals ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in
Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Selective abortions of daughters produces the same effect.


Tony Ingham

Re: children of Richard, 1st Baron Rich

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 10 sep 2007 01:00:28

Bronwen,

Edward Ryche and wife Joan . . . along with son Edward were selling
property in Essex in 1586.

Feet of Fines for Essex Vol. VI. p. 42.
Easter term 28 Elizabeth. No.21.
John Ouldham, pl.
Edward Ryche, senior, esquire and wife Joan and Edward Ryche, junior,
gentleman, def.
16 acres arable, 2 acres meadow, 40 acres pasture, 10 acres wood and
4 acres marsh in Fobbing. Consideration £200.

Feet of Fines for Essex Vol. VI. p. 42.
Easter term 28 Elizabeth. No.29.
Edward Hoye, pl.
Edward Ryche, esquire and wife Joan and Edward Ryche, gentleman, his
son and heir apparent, def.
20 acres arable and 20 acres pasture in Mucking. Consideration 160
marks.

Edward was purchasing property in and around Stanford le Hope, Horndon
on the Hill and adjacent areas as early as 1553.

Whether his wife was Joan Machell is another thing altogether.

All the best,

Tony Ingham



lostcooper@yahoo.com wrote:
Some families who post their trees on Ancestry.com claim that Richard
Rich (d.1567) and Elizabeth Jenks (d. 1558) had a son, Edward (c.
1550-1600). On the usual credible websites, even Stirnet, I find no
"Edward" listed among the children. Only two sons are listed, neither
of whom show a marriage to "Jane or Ann Machell" as is shown for
"Edward" on the Ancestry site. Does anyone have some special insight
or a crystal ball that suggests Edward may or may not have existed? Or
that he may have existed but with different parents? Or that he might
be a bastard? Thanks - Bronwen


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



D. Spencer Hines

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 10 sep 2007 01:32:27

It was a JOKE.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

I even put a <g> after it for the benefit of dullards like Pogue Brannigan.

We all know that the male sperm, which can't be controlled, determine the
sex of the child.

Henry VIII didn't know that.

DSH

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:xf6dnVOsAZN8GHnbnZ2dnUVZ_orinZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Let's see Pogue Brannigan produce documentary evidence that the Romneys
selectively aborted daughters in order to produce 5 sons.

No cheap innuendo will suffice.

DSH


I doubt it
and never said it

your claim was that production of sons proved virility
I simply presented an alternative explanation

Vince

------------------------------------------------

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:6eWdnfMij45RxXnbnZ2dnUVZ_vDinZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:

"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a
very low birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child
families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have
practiced lots of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions --
and more homosexuals ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in
Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Selective abortions of daughters produces the same effect.

Robert Forrest

Re: De Kemesek of Fordham: earlier ancestry

Legg inn av Robert Forrest » 10 sep 2007 02:09:32

A Nov 2006 thread with this subject was originated by Michael
Andrews-Reading. Several posts included information on the descendants of
Wimar, steward of Count Alan of Brittany, lord of Richmond. This Wimar was
the progenitor of the Thornton family of Thornton Steward, Yorkshire and of
Cambridgeshire, as discussed in Farrer's "Feudal Cambridgeshire" and in VCH
Cambridgeshire, Vol. 10.

In one of his posts to this thread, Michael mentioned that: "Tim Powys-Lybbe
has very kindly pointed out that in DD Keats-Rohan states Wimar the
Steward's wife was named Gilla."

On the Powys-Lybbe web site the source for this information appears as DP
(Domesday People), p. 497, not DD (Domesday Descendants). Powys-Lybbe seems
to have taken some information on DP which pertains to a Wimar, dapifer of
William II de Warenne, and applied it to Wimar the steward to Alan lord of
Richmond. Easy enough to do, as the two Wimar stewards were contemporaneous,
both also described as Wihomar, Wihomarc, Guihomarc or Guihomar. Also, one
Wimar had sons Warner and Roger, the other sons Roger and Walter. However,
they were two different men, served different lords and had different
successors to their estates. Wimar of Thornton was succeeded by his elder
son Warner, while the Wimar referred to in DP was of Gressinghall, Norfolk,
had a wife named Gila, ended his life as a monk at Castle Acre priory, and
was succeeded by his grandson William, son of his son Roger.

The bottom line here is that it was Wimar dapifer of William II de Warenne
who had a wife Gila. I have seen no reference to the name of the wife of
Wimar steward of count Alan, lord of Richmond...but I'd like to.

Bob Forrest

Vince

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av Vince » 10 sep 2007 02:19:55

So you say now

but what you posted was
Whereas the Romneys have five sons.
The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

When you follow a sexual comment with a "grin"
it has a different meaning


If I say

"Julie Andrews is a hot number" <g>
it is a concurrence , not a joke

Vince



D. Spencer Hines wrote:
It was a JOKE.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

I even put a <g> after it for the benefit of dullards like Pogue Brannigan.

We all know that the male sperm, which can't be controlled, determine the
sex of the child.

Henry VIII didn't know that.

DSH

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:xf6dnVOsAZN8GHnbnZ2dnUVZ_orinZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Let's see Pogue Brannigan produce documentary evidence that the Romneys
selectively aborted daughters in order to produce 5 sons.

No cheap innuendo will suffice.

DSH

I doubt it
and never said it

your claim was that production of sons proved virility
I simply presented an alternative explanation

Vince

------------------------------------------------
"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:6eWdnfMij45RxXnbnZ2dnUVZ_vDinZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:

"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a
very low birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child
families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have
practiced lots of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions --
and more homosexuals ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in
Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Selective abortions of daughters produces the same effect.


D. Spencer Hines

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 10 sep 2007 02:20:30

<G>

DSH

"Frogwatch" <dbohara@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1189386710.939469.212640@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

Liberals, recognizing their unsuitability to continue existing are
doing us a favor and not breeding, I propose to thank them and
encourage the trend. We should pay them not to have children and tax
them when they do. They have finally recognized their complicity in
the deaths of the 100 million people killed by the communists and have
decided to eliminate themselves as a form of atonement.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Why Do Left-Wing Democrats Have Fewer Children?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 10 sep 2007 02:23:04

Hilarious!

Pogue Brannigan is even THICKER than I had ever imagined him to be.

Those nuns must have clobbered him one time too many.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:kcWdnWYV1tJXBnnbnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@comcast.com...

So you say now

but what you posted was
Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

When you follow a sexual comment with a "grin"
it has a different meaning

If I say

"Julie Andrews is a hot number" <g
it is a concurrence , not a joke

Vince

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

It was a JOKE.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

I even put a <g> after it for the benefit of dullards like Pogue
Brannigan.

We all know that the male sperm, which can't be controlled, determine the
sex of the child.

Henry VIII didn't know that.

DSH

"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:xf6dnVOsAZN8GHnbnZ2dnUVZ_orinZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

Let's see Pogue Brannigan produce documentary evidence that the Romneys
selectively aborted daughters in order to produce 5 sons.

No cheap innuendo will suffice.

DSH

I doubt it
and never said it

your claim was that production of sons proved virility
I simply presented an alternative explanation

Vince

------------------------------------------------
"Vince" <firelaw@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:6eWdnfMij45RxXnbnZ2dnUVZ_vDinZ2d@comcast.com...

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Soldier in a Combat Zone wrote:

"The real problem that the democrats have is that they have a
very low birth rate due to abortion, homosexuality and one child
families".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, one sees a lot of speculation about that.

It has been referred to as the Roe-Wade Factor.

Left-wing Loons are, quite often, one-child families who have
practiced lots of contraceptive techniques -- including abortions --
and more homosexuals ARE Democrats -- no one seriously denies that.

Look at the CLINTONS -- one-child family.

That's one reason why they're so popular with the Red Chinese in
Beijing.

Whereas the Romneys have five sons.

The odds against that, of course, are 31 to 1.

So, Mitt Romney is virile too. <g

Soon we will have the Plan B Solution -- the "Morning After" pills.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Selective abortions of daughters produces the same effect.

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