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WJhonson

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 sep 2007 19:58:24

Regarding the children of Sir William Cavendish of this title, sometime ago Rosie Bevan had kindly provided me with a list and I give her response quoted below.

Will Johnson
--------------
START QUOTE
"
The very readable and sympathetic biography of Bess, Mary S Lovell, Bess of Hardwick : first lady of Chatsworth (Abacus, 2005), gives the following information about the 16 children of William Cavendish:

William Cavendish c.1505-1557
+ (1.) 1532 Margaret, dau. Edmund Bostock, d. 1540
2. Elizabeth b. 1534 d. bef 1540.
2. Katherine b. 1535, d. aft 1547
2. John d. inf
2. Mary d. aft 1547
2. Ann b. 1540. Married Sir Henry Boynton in 1561
+ (2.) 1542 Elizabeth, dau. Thomas Parker of Postingford, Suffolk, d.
1546 in childbirth
2. Susan b. Oct 1544, d. inf
2. John b. 1545 d. inf
2. female b. 1546, stillborn
+ (3) Elizabeth, dau.John Hardwick, 1527-1608
2. Frances b.1548 d. aft 1608, had issue
+ Sir Henry Pierrepoint
2. Temperance b.1549 d. 1549
2. Henry 1550-1616 s.p.l.
+ Grace Talbot
2.William Ist Earl of Devonshire 1551-1625, had issue
+ Anne Keighly d. 1598
+ Elizabeth Wortley
2.Charles 1553-1617, had issue
+ Margaret Kitson d. 1582
+Catherine Ogle
2. Elizabeth 1555-1582, had issue
+ Charles Stuart, 5th earl Lennox 1555-1576
2.Mary 1556-1632, had issue
+ Gilbert Talbot, 7th Earl Shrewsbury (eldest son of Bess's 4th husband, George Talbot)
2. Lucres 1557-1557

Ann Cavendish had 700 pounds on her marriage with Sir Henry Baynton. The marriage was arranged through Bess's second husband, Sir William St Loe, whose first wife was Jane Baynton 1523-1549 (dau. of Sir Edward Baynton), and his two surviving daughters by her were brought up in the Baynton household after their mother's death.

There is no mention of any marriage for the other daughters of Margaret Bostock so I assume they did not survive to adulthood.
Cheers, Rosie"
END QUOTE

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 sep 2007 20:11:02

<<In a message dated 09/03/07 04:56:56 Pacific Standard Time, jonathankirton@sympatico.ca writes:
[You can check the IGI also, which is quite comprehensive.] >>

---------------------------
I think you mean the AF, and my previous response applies.

However, in discussing the IGI we must be very careful to note what *it* has on the particular record, as its own underlying source.

Unlike the AF which does not list sources, the IGI does, although many times they are frustratingly vague. For example, for this Thomas Brooke, we do see, in the AF this data, but also we see it in the IGI, with this specific birthdate.

*However*, let us note and reinforce that scrolling down the page slightly we see this
"Record submit after 1991 by a member of the LDS church..."
and also
"No source information is available."

Therefore we must stand on the principle that this entry is no better than any other unsourced statement found on some random webpage. There is no way, or at least no easy way to verify where this patron got their data from, nor to look at that underlying data yourself.


So the follow-up question said in a plaintive and whiny tone would be "Well when IS the IGI a good source? Gosh you're so mean!"

Looking at some other Thomas Brooke's born much later as an example we see an entry that says
Thoms. Brook christened 14 Dec 1620 Broadway, Worcester
Father Tobias Brook

Scrolling down the page we see, and this is quite important
"Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed..."

And please note this quite important point
BATCH C018202 SOURCE 0246644

You can click on the word Source and what do you see on the next page?
You see this
Bishop's Transcripts 1608-1837 Church of England, Parish Church of Broadway (Worcestershire)

In other words, this IGI entry, comes direct, they say, from a source which you yourself, given the opportunity can check, to verify the entry.

This is a good source. At least it's much better than the first one at which we looked above.

Will Johnson

TJ Booth

Re: Identity of Dionisia m(1) Sothill m(2) Markenfield

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 03 sep 2007 20:18:31

Adrian,

Your comments are appreciated, and you are correct there is no evidence that
Sir William hung at Pontrefact had a wife or issue. But except for John
Ravilious' last sentence in the SGM post below (i.e. he 'died sine prole')
I've not seen evidence he didn't either - is there any?

You seem to suggest that Dionisia should be identified as a dau of Sir
William Sr. and Isabel Deincourt. But as the original posting noted, there
is no Dionisia mentioned in Isabel's very extensive will, which would seem
to rule this out. Isabel's will was posted by Ravilious in
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1180577827. The
only other Sir William of Elmley would be a generation too late (i.e. Sir
William son of Isabel's son Sir John).

The bigger question is how much of Walbran's description of Sir Thomas
Markenfield's tomb can be accepted. Dionisia survived her husband and
probably supervised the tomb's construction, so she should know her own
parentage. The description of the Markenfield arms impaling the arms of
Fitzwilliam thus seems convincing since the other shield of his arms
impaling Miniot properly identifies his known first wife (by whom he had his
son Sir Thomas who m. Beatrice Sothill). Perhaps Sir Thomas' tomb is still
in a condition that the identification of the Fitzwilliam arms can be
verified, but can we trust Walbran that the first name of Dionisia's father
was William? Might her father more likely be one of Isabel's sons Sir John
or Thomas?

Your otherwise exemplary notes unfortunately perpetuate the erroneus
identification of Isabel Deincourt's dau Joan as the wife of Henry Sothill.
John Ravilious and Rosie Bevans have presented convincing evidence in the
archives that the Joan who m. Henry Sothill abt 1410/1411 was 4 generations
later.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: <ADRIANCHANNING02@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: Identity of Dionisia m(1) Sothill m(2) Markenfield


Terry,

I've not seen any evidence that the William FitzWillima who was hung at
Pontefract was married, let alone had issue. The Complete Peerage does
give his
father as the Sir William who married Isabel Deincourt, but his mother
would
seem to be by a previous wife. There is quite a lot of information at
the
Public Records Office A2A site, Sheffield Archives_ Wentworth Woodhouse
Muniments ref as WWM/D/. My notes reads as follows (from CP unles
otherwise shown):

KETELBORN; Of Anglian or Scandinavian descent; On 1 Dec 1135 seised of
land
at Hopton near Emley
]
GODRIC (?c1112-)
]
WILLIAM FITZWILLIAM (?c1140-<1194); m ?c1169 Aubrey d&h of ROBERT de
LISOURS
(s of FAULK de LISOURES; Domesday tenant of Sprotborough and other West
Riding manors under ROGER de BUSLI; ROBERT de LISOURS m c1129 Aubrey d of
ROBERT
de LACY (ld of Pontefract and in her issue heir of the great Lacy estates
from ROBERT de LACY II (-1193/4))

(NB This was Aubrey's m3, She m1 c1150 ROBERT FITZEUSTACE » JOHN (-1190)
Constable of Chester » ROBERT, constable and 2nd house of LACY; m2 c1167
WILLIAM
de CLAIRFAIT)

]
WILLIAM FITZWILLIAM (?c1173-l Feb 1218/9) alleged Marshal of battle of
Hastings!!!; In 1194 ROGER constable of Chester released to him and his
mother all
the land which had been held by ROBERT de LISOURS to WILLIAM and his
mother
]
THOMAS FITZWILLIAM; Sir; In 1253 gr of free warren, market and fair at
Emley, Yorks [A2A WWM/D/3 1253 granted Abbey & Convent of Roche, all
lands etc of
Mar held by grant from Jordan s of Philip of Mar] [A2A WWM/D/9 Thomas
d<1279
as Wm FWm was then Ld of Sprotborough]
│
WILLIAM (-<1295); Sir
[A2A WWM/D4 implies he has d sister Albreda m c1255 RICHARD WALENS]
]
WILLIAM (-<1342); Sir; In 1294 executor of his f's will; [email q Vis of
Nth: lord of Emley and Sprotborough] [email; kt, serving with the army of
Ed I
in Scotland, fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298] m1 Maude
(-<1324);
m2 Isabel Deincourt (-1348 ?sp)] [eml Isabel left an extant Will] [eml
infers he probably only m once to Isabel Deincourt][A2A WWM/D/16 suggests
he m
Agnes sis&cohier of Roger Bertram (-ipm 1312) Her coheirs were Isabella
de Bray
m Norman Darcy leaving Philip de Bray and Christiana de Ros leaving Elias
de
Penbum; and WWM/D/26,27 by 1324 he was m to Isabel Deyncourt & would seem
to
imply his son John was by a previous marriage]
]
1) WILLIAM (-22 Mar 1322 Hung Pontefract); Ex for joining Er LANCASTER's
rebellion; unm?
2) JOHN (-10 Aug 1349 ipm); Sir; [eml In 1327 imprisoned, freed 9 Mar
1343/44] m Joan d of ADAM de RERESBY of Thribergh][A2A WWM/D/37 confirms
some of
details and suggests he died of pestilence

William's (-<1342)daughters:
from email: 1)Joan m HENRY SOTHILL/SOOTHILL of Southill, Yorks »7s, she
may
come from a different generation and 2)Margaret m WILLIAM BINGHAM but
another
eml gives (1) Joan m Sir BRIEN de THORNHILL and (2) Margaret m HENRY de
PIERREPONT; A2A WWM/D/23 supports this last statement and that Hy was the
son of
a Lord Robert de Pirpoint


Issue of John FitzWilliam (-1349)

1). JOHN FITZWILLIAM (1327-1385 murdered at Howden); Sir; Obtained East
Haddlesey manor and other property in Yorks on death Sir THOMAS de
STAPLETON; [BP
In 1372 founded chantry of St EDWARDS at Sprotburgh church]; m Elizabeth
Clinton d? of WILLIAM CLINTON Er HUNTINGDON] [CP Vol VI p 649 Wm C
(c1304-25 Aug
1354 sp [ac?] per ipm 28 Ed III] [eml Paley Baildon's History of Baildon
and
the Baildons 1:343 et seq states Elizabeth’s surnames is uncertain] [VY
calls him Sir WILLIAM, but calls his son s of JOHN]
2) Joan m« Sir THOMAS de STAPLETON (-1373) [A2A WWM/D/61 He was s&h of
Milo
de Stapilton]

regards,
Adrian

WJhonson

Re: Royal Gateway missed on purpose by Douglas Richardson ?

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 sep 2007 21:07:11

<<In a message dated 09/02/07 15:58:33 Pacific Standard Time, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
What is the opinion about this? >>
--------------------

Leo the new version of his DNB entry kindly supplied me in full by Marilyn Pedrick a few months ago looks a bit askance on this claim by saying "There is no contemporary evidence to suggest that George Percy ever married. "

It then goes on to relate a story *from the early 1800s* where two brothers in Virginia claimed descent from him. Of course no evidence was cited, and probably none exist, but the claim will probably out-live us all.

Will Johnson

Normandy

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Normandy » 03 sep 2007 21:13:19

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
wMXCi.217$YE3.38@eagle.america.net...
There were only 10 Yale residential colleges in 1962.

This pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

If he wants to be taken seriously he needs to use his Real Name -- no
pseudonyms need apply.

DSH

Never knew a Yalie who was not proud of his college. Yale's alumni records

are searchable only by college.
D. Spencer Hines will not say what his college was.. Why?

Wonder who the phoney is?

Normandy

Normandy

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Normandy » 03 sep 2007 21:15:31

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
fDYCi.218$YE3.512@eagle.america.net...
This pogue 'Normandy' won't reveal his Real Name.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

The worm squirms


Sinclair

Leo van de Pas

Re: Royal Gateway missed on purpose by Douglas Richardson ?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 03 sep 2007 21:22:18

Many thanks. I am going to keep George Percy unmarried. By "his daughter", who I have kept as Ann (no surname) a remark about the unsubstantiated rumour.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: WJhonson
To: Leo van de Pas ; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: Royal Gateway missed on purpose by Douglas Richardson ?


<<In a message dated 09/02/07 15:58:33 Pacific Standard Time, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
What is the opinion about this? >>
--------------------

Leo the new version of his DNB entry kindly supplied me in full by Marilyn Pedrick a few months ago looks a bit askance on this claim by saying "There is no contemporary evidence to suggest that George Percy ever married. "

It then goes on to relate a story *from the early 1800s* where two brothers in Virginia claimed descent from him. Of course no evidence was cited, and probably none exist, but the claim will probably out-live us all.

Will Johnson

Jack Linthicum

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 03 sep 2007 21:33:12

On Sep 3, 4:13 pm, "Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
wMXCi.217$YE3...@eagle.america.net...> There were only 10 Yale residential colleges in 1962.

This pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

If he wants to be taken seriously he needs to use his Real Name -- no
pseudonyms need apply.

DSH

Never knew a Yalie who was not proud of his college. Yale's alumni records
are searchable only by college.
D. Spencer Hines will not say what his college was.. Why?

Wonder who the phoney is?

Normandy

I get this feeling that "David" wasn't a really popular figure in his
collige days, and fears the return of someone from his past who could
confirm that. He is, as you may know, a career asshole.

WJhonson

Re: Identity of Dionisia m(1) Sothill m(2) Markenfield

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 sep 2007 21:33:51

<<In a message dated 09/03/07 09:23:18 Pacific Standard Time, ADRIANCHANNING02 writes:
WILLIAM FITZWILLIAM (?c1173-l Feb 1218/9) alleged Marshal of battle of
Hastings!!!; In 1194 ROGER constable of Chester released to him and his mother all
the land which had been held by ROBERT de LISOURS to WILLIAM and his mother >>

-----------------

Rather than dying *on* 1 Feb 1218/9 I believe he was living on that date, or rather I have the 9th but not quibbling over the day. So apparently there must be a document naming him living.

He was however dead by 22 Feb 1224 there is a discussion in the archives on this very point Sep 2005 which I did not copy.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Identity of Dionisia m(1) Sothill m(2) Markenfield

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 sep 2007 21:45:00

<<In a message dated 09/03/07 09:23:18 Pacific Standard Time, ADRIANCHANNING02 writes:
William's (-<1342)daughters:
from email: 1)Joan m HENRY SOTHILL/SOOTHILL of Southill, Yorks »7s, she may
come from a different generation and 2)Margaret m WILLIAM BINGHAM but another
eml gives (1) Joan m Sir BRIEN de THORNHILL and (2) Margaret m HENRY de
PIERREPONT; A2A WWM/D/23 supports this last statement and that Hy was the son of
a Lord Robert de Pirpoint >>

-----------------

The Joan who m Henry de Sothill was a daughter of William FitzWilliam but several generations forward. Sir Henry de Sothill made a will in 1421, his wife outlived him and on several documents she is called Joan (Jane).

Will

Leo van de Pas

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 03 sep 2007 21:59:01

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)


In a message dated 09/02/07 12:41:30 Pacific Standard Time,
jonathankirton@sympatico.ca writes:
William Brooke, 5th. Baron Cobham, (1527-1597) had three sons, Henry,
William
and George.

----------------
Or, his eldest son by his second wife Frances Newton, was named
Maximillian born 4 Dec 1560

Burke's Peerage, 1938, page 611 has the same birth date and tells Maximilian
died 5 December 1583
Leo van de Pas

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D. Spencer Hines

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 22:03:34

Bullcrap...

There are all sorts of Yale Alumni & Alumnae Records.

This no-name pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46dc6adf$0$5107$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

>Yale's alumni records are searchable only by college. [sic]

Jack Linthicum

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 03 sep 2007 22:09:35

On Sep 3, 5:03 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Bullcrap...

There are all sorts of Yale Alumni & Alumnae Records.

This no-name pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message

news:46dc6adf$0$5107$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

Yale's alumni records are searchable only by college. [sic]


You mean like the one showing Howard Cosell had a Yale JD?

http://www.nndb.com/edu/434/000127053/

Ray O'Hara

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Ray O'Hara » 03 sep 2007 22:20:44

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7F_Ci.220$YE3.602@eagle.america.net...


bwaaak buk buk buk bwaaak.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 22:28:30

Pogue Linthicum needs to keep trying to verify his contention that Howard
Cosell earned a full-course Yale JD in 1970.

When he has finished his search, given up or has new convincing,
non-bullcrap evidence [of the gilt-edged sort he has NOT presented
previously] he is required to present it to the Gentle Readers in these
newsgroups....

And await his grade assigned.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1188853775.200084.270730@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

You mean like the one showing Howard Cosell had a Yale JD?

http://www.nndb.com/edu/434/000127053/

Jack Linthicum

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 03 sep 2007 22:35:57

On Sep 3, 5:28 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Pogue Linthicum needs to keep trying to verify his contention that Howard
Cosell earned a full-course Yale JD in 1970.

When he has finished his search, given up or has new convincing,
non-bullcrap evidence [of the gilt-edged sort he has NOT presented
previously] he is required to present it to the Gentle Readers in these
newsgroups....

And await his grade assigned.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:1188853775.200084.270730@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

You mean like the one showing Howard Cosell had a Yale JD?

http://www.nndb.com/edu/434/000127053/

You mean like you are volunteering the information the gentleman from
France, a fellow Eli, has been requesting?

Why do you keep trying to qualify a simple statement made multi posts
ago that Yale was responsible for Howard Cosell? First you tried to
say that Yale College didn't give the degree and now you seem to be
able to grade a JD as "full course" or not. And you say Sinclair/
Normandy can look you up so blithely why can't you show me that the
JDs for 1970 did not include our Howard?

J.C.B.Sharp

Re: Identity of Dionisia m(1) Sothill m(2) Markenfield

Legg inn av J.C.B.Sharp » 03 sep 2007 22:46:03

I have found my copy of "The Ancient and Modern History of the loyal town
of Rippon", T.Gent, 1733.

In the chapter on inscriptions in the church the only mention of
Markenfield is in a section on those that were illegible (p 133):

The other ancient monument is near the North Door and is thought to be
that of Sir William Markenfield's Kt once steward to the archbishop of
York, on which are the effigies of the said knight and his lady.

Gjest

Re: Identity of Dionisia m(1) Sothill m(2) Markenfield

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 sep 2007 01:00:04

Will,

My mistake, CP Vol V p 519 has living 9th Feb 1218/9, thanks for pointing
this out.

Adrian


In a message dated 03/09/2007 21:34:34 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:

<<In a message dated 09/03/07 09:23:18 Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING02 writes:
WILLIAM FITZWILLIAM (?c1173-l Feb 1218/9) alleged Marshal of battle of
Hastings!!!; In 1194 ROGER constable of Chester released to him and his
mother all
the land which had been held by ROBERT de LISOURS to WILLIAM and his mother

-----------------

Rather than dying *on* 1 Feb 1218/9 I believe he was living on that date, or
rather I have the 9th but not quibbling over the day. So apparently there
must be a document naming him living.

He was however dead by 22 Feb 1224 there is a discussion in the archives on
this very point Sep 2005 which I did not copy.

Will

-------------------------------
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the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Identity of Dionisia m(1) Sothill m(2) Markenfield

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 sep 2007 01:01:03

Yes, thanks Will. I include this in my notes to remind myself that such a
claim has been made, but I should have made it clearer that it no longer holds
water.

Adrian


In a message dated 03/09/2007 21:45:48 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:

<<In a message dated 09/03/07 09:23:18 Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING02 writes:
William's (-<1342)daughters:
from email: 1)Joan m HENRY SOTHILL/SOOTHILL of Southill, Yorks »7s, she may

come from a different generation and 2)Margaret m WILLIAM BINGHAM but
another
eml gives (1) Joan m Sir BRIEN de THORNHILL and (2) Margaret m HENRY de
PIERREPONT; A2A WWM/D/23 supports this last statement and that Hy was the
son of
a Lord Robert de Pirpoint >>

-----------------

The Joan who m Henry de Sothill was a daughter of William FitzWilliam but
several generations forward. Sir Henry de Sothill made a will in 1421, his
wife outlived him and on several documents she is called Joan (Jane).

Will

-------------------------------
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jonathan kirton

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 04 sep 2007 01:08:54

Dear Leo and Will,

Tomorrow I will scan all the relevant pages and source references
from McKeen's book to you
both, including all the relevant armorial bearings of the Brookes of
Cobham, because I suspect you may have a problem locating a copy of
the book.

In the mean time I will send the following:

Source: McKeen, Volume 2, pages 700 thro' 707.

George Brooke, Lord Cobham (c.1497-1558) married Anne Bray (d. 1558)
(senior co-heiress
of Lord Bray (1557) & of Jane (nee Haiighwell), Lady Bray (d.1558)

He shows their sons as follows:-

1. William Brooke, 5th. Baron Cobham, born 1527,m 1) Dorothy
Neville 2) Frances Newton
2. Henry Brooke, born 1529, died young
3. George Brooke, born 1533, d. c. 1570; mar. Christina Duke, who
mar. 2nd. Greg. Sprinte
4. Thomas Brooke, born 1533, died 1578; (here he shows a "?") mar.
Catherine Cavendish
5. John Brooke, born 1535, died 1594; mar. Alice (Cobb)
Norton, died 1580
6. Edward Brooke, born 1536 (probably died before the 2nd. Edward
was born, after 1540)
7. Henry, (Sir Henry Cobham) (sic) Brooke born 1537, d. 1592; mar.
Anne (Sutton) Haddon
8. Thomas (a second Thomas ?) Brooke, born 1539
9. Edmund Brooke, born 1540
10. Edward (a second Edward) born ? (after the first Edward had died)

[Possibly George and Thomas(1) were twins (?), but not necessarily.
He seems to have a bit
of uncertainty about the two named "Thomas", but I believe it is not
unheard of to have two children with the same name. I have not yet
had time to go through all his sources, but you
can judge those for yourselves when you receive the scans]

Regards,

Jonathan

Dean A. Markley

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Dean A. Markley » 04 sep 2007 02:02:36

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Pogue Linthicum needs to keep trying to verify his contention that Howard
Cosell earned a full-course Yale JD in 1970.

When he has finished his search, given up or has new convincing,
non-bullcrap evidence [of the gilt-edged sort he has NOT presented
previously] he is required to present it to the Gentle Readers in these
newsgroups....

And await his grade assigned.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1188853775.200084.270730@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

You mean like the one showing Howard Cosell had a Yale JD?

http://www.nndb.com/edu/434/000127053/


So what the heck is a "pogue" and how is it related to naval content?

Paul J Gans

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 04 sep 2007 04:15:04

In alt.history.british Dean A. Markley <deanmarkley@comcast.net> wrote:
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Pogue Linthicum needs to keep trying to verify his contention that Howard
Cosell earned a full-course Yale JD in 1970.

When he has finished his search, given up or has new convincing,
non-bullcrap evidence [of the gilt-edged sort he has NOT presented
previously] he is required to present it to the Gentle Readers in these
newsgroups....

And await his grade assigned.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1188853775.200084.270730@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

You mean like the one showing Howard Cosell had a Yale JD?

http://www.nndb.com/edu/434/000127053/


So what the heck is a "pogue" and how is it related to naval content?

If you search the internet for the word under naval slang of the
WWII and post WWII era you will find it.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Peter Stewart

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 sep 2007 04:21:56

D. Spencer Hines is roughly as persuasive an advocate for himself as is
Senator Larry Craig, though not quite up to his level of self-awareness.
Comments interspersed:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7F_Ci.220$YE3.602@eagle.america.net...
Bullcrap...

There are all sorts of Yale Alumni & Alumnae Records.

But no "alumnae" records from 1962 if co-education started there, as far as
I recall, in 1969. A red herring, and ill-informed anyway: in Latin, the
masculine plural includes the feminine unless there is a specific need to
particularise the two genders.

This no-name pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

He hasn't pretended to know Latin, or told lies about other people. Using a
pseudonym is not in itself proof of phoniness.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Ho hum - unable to defend himself OR correct himself.

Hines, you were reduced to asking for "detente" and then for "peace and
friendship". You were offered terms (for peace alone), that you stop
parading your fraudulent superiority over others in SGM. That meant in posts
AND in crossposts.

But your obvious complexes of guilt and inferiority evidently have total
mastery over your fingers, and you simply can't help yourself from typing
and posting deceitful, ignorant effusions. Consequently the terms for peace
changed: as stated before, you can either get out of SGM and stay out, or
you will be pursued, exposed and humiliated wherever else you visit Usenet
with your stench of bad character and mental instability.

You must despise yourself even more than the rest of us despise you, in
order to drag the good name left by your father into the dirt of your
Internet notoriety. But that will be your own business ONLY if and when you
desist from acting out your self-hatred in soc.genealogy.medieval.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 05:51:39

Pogue Gans, one of the most notorious lard arses on USENET, could not gain
admission to ANY Ivy League college or university in 1951 -- and had to
settle for four years at Ohio State.

Pogue Gans is a chemist at NYU who dabbles in Mediaeval History and False
Charges -- an integral part of his penchant for Character Assassination,
Lies, Red Herrings and Envy.

Pogue Gans LOVES to play with sock puppets, such as 'Normandy'/'Sinclair',
and frequently cannot tell them from Real People with Real Names.

He is a poster boy for Mediocre Academics, Inc. in America.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fbieik$q24$1@reader1.panix.com...

Normandy <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

What college were you in? I think you are about the same age and I am
trying to place you

Class of '62

"We're poor little lambs who have lost our way
Bah, bah, bah.
We're little black sheep who have gone astray
Bah, bah, bah.
Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
Doomed from here to eternity
Lord have mercy on such as we!
Bah, bah, bah."


Normandy

You will NEVER get a factual answer from Hines that reveals
anything about his private life. The only exceptions have
been in moments of pique where he loses control of himself.

You are dealing here with one of the most notorious newsgroup
trolls.

He is not Yale's proudest product.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

D. Spencer Hines

Re: I Remember Diana, Princess Of Wales

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 05:57:22

Correct...

That was at the core of Diana's abysmal failure as a Princess.

She refused to accept the role assumed so competently, by say a Princess
Anne.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Louis Epstein" <le@main.put.com> wrote in message

news:2c2dnRW9B6T7K0fbnZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@velocitywest.net...

She certainly didn't understand what being a Princess entailed (and
one is not supposed to treat it as EVER capable of being "redefined"
closer to the pop celebrity status she understood better).

zeke zzzzzzzypt

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av zeke zzzzzzzypt » 04 sep 2007 06:02:28

Are you a Gaypublican?

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Pogue Gans, one of the most notorious lard arses on USENET, could not gain
admission to ANY Ivy League college or university in 1951 -- and had to
settle for four years at Ohio State.

Pogue Gans is a chemist at NYU who dabbles in Mediaeval History and False
Charges -- an integral part of his penchant for Character Assassination,
Lies, Red Herrings and Envy.

Pogue Gans LOVES to play with sock puppets, such as 'Normandy'/'Sinclair',
and frequently cannot tell them from Real People with Real Names.

He is a poster boy for Mediocre Academics, Inc. in America.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fbieik$q24$1@reader1.panix.com...

Normandy <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

What college were you in? I think you are about the same age and I am
trying to place you
Class of '62
"We're poor little lambs who have lost our way
Bah, bah, bah.
We're little black sheep who have gone astray
Bah, bah, bah.
Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
Doomed from here to eternity
Lord have mercy on such as we!
Bah, bah, bah."

Normandy
You will NEVER get a factual answer from Hines that reveals
anything about his private life. The only exceptions have
been in moments of pique where he loses control of himself.

You are dealing here with one of the most notorious newsgroup
trolls.

He is not Yale's proudest product.

--
--- Paul J. Gans


D. Spencer Hines

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 06:28:32

Twaddle & Codswallop.

Many women were pursuing graduate degrees at Yale University in 1962. Only
Yale College was male only.

Pogue Stewart is flaunting his congenital, carefully cultivated and lovingly
nurtured Grand Ignorance again.

He never completed his degree at Oxford University and had to leave Oxford
because of Severely Bollixed Brain Syndrome -- after he fell off his
motorcycle while drunk and dandily smashed his noodle against a cobblestone.

His noodle was so badly discombobulated he could no longer continue at
Oxford. -- DSH

"Quite right for once - I lost the ability to read." -- Peter Stewart

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ob4Di.30403$4A1.24103@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7F_Ci.220$YE3.602@eagle.america.net...

Bullcrap...

There are all sorts of Yale Alumni & Alumnae Records.

Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46dc6adf$0$5107$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

Yale's alumni records are searchable only by college. [sic]

But no "alumnae" records from 1962 if co-education started there, as far
as I recall, in 1969.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Counting Descendants

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 08:35:29

Excellent!

Well, it took many sharp blows upside the head with my trusty 2 by 4 to
bring Leo around to SEEING THE LIGHT...

Of course he is still FAR too cowardly and duplicitous to admit it publicly.

But Leo has FINALLY twigged to the fact that he needs to write MICHAEL
DOUGLAS in the list of alleged DESCENDANTS below NOT KIRK DOUGLAS.

Mission (Partially) Accomplished.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.1670.1188693907.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

At the moment I have only 866 descendants, even though millions are claimed.
Like what happened to Kenau Simonsdr. Hasselaer in The Netherlands, the
descendants of Anneke Jans gave her a reputation, her reputation was being
descended from William the Silent even though no evidence has ever been
produced.

However it is the descendants that are varied and fascinating. To begin with
a list of interesting descendants (which has grown)

Philip Livingston Jr, Signer of the declaration of Independence
William Livingston, 1st Governor of New Jersey
Henry Brockholst Livingston, US Supreme Court Justice
Herman Melville
Louisa May Alcott
Henry Fonda
Eleanor Roosevelt
Floyd Delafield Crosby, cinematographer
Thomas Howard Kean, Governor of New Jersey
Adam von Trott zu Solz
Jane Fonda
Peter Fonda
Robert Trail Spence Lowell IV
Montgomery Clift
Bridget Fonda
Michael Douglas ******
William Addams Reitwiesner

Peter Stewart

Re: Counting Descendants

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 sep 2007 09:00:40

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:zV7Di.228$YE3.510@eagle.america.net...
Excellent!

Well, it took many sharp blows upside the head with my trusty 2 by 4 to
bring Leo around to SEEING THE LIGHT...

Of course he is still FAR too cowardly and duplicitous to admit it
publicly.

But Leo has FINALLY twigged to the fact that he needs to write MICHAEL
DOUGLAS in the list of alleged DESCENDANTS below NOT KIRK DOUGLAS.

Mission (Partially) Accomplished.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

This is Narcissistic Personality Disorder, served neat.

Leo has posted a "list of interesting descendants", quite a different
statement from his last one about people found "amongst descendants". The
wilful misreading of this by Hines, forgetting the example of "a house
amongst trees", was proof of nothing but his own blinkered pedantry.

But harping about his phoney "mission...accomplished" is even more idiotic
than his Republican idol George W. Bush making a similarly risible claim
about the US mission in Iraq.

Peter Stewart



"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.1670.1188693907.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

At the moment I have only 866 descendants, even though millions are
claimed.
Like what happened to Kenau Simonsdr. Hasselaer in The Netherlands, the
descendants of Anneke Jans gave her a reputation, her reputation was being
descended from William the Silent even though no evidence has ever been
produced.

However it is the descendants that are varied and fascinating. To begin
with
a list of interesting descendants (which has grown)

Philip Livingston Jr, Signer of the declaration of Independence
William Livingston, 1st Governor of New Jersey
Henry Brockholst Livingston, US Supreme Court Justice
Herman Melville
Louisa May Alcott
Henry Fonda
Eleanor Roosevelt
Floyd Delafield Crosby, cinematographer
Thomas Howard Kean, Governor of New Jersey
Adam von Trott zu Solz
Jane Fonda
Peter Fonda
Robert Trail Spence Lowell IV
Montgomery Clift
Bridget Fonda
Michael Douglas ******
William Addams Reitwiesner

Peter Stewart

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 sep 2007 09:14:42

Yet again Hines shows us unmistakably that he recognises the home truths he
cannot answer, or face up to, by deleting these from my copied post before
replying. Comments interspersed:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:o56Di.226$YE3.589@eagle.america.net...

Twaddle & Codswallop.

Many women were pursuing graduate degrees at Yale University
in 1962.

So they were already "alumnae" of somewhere else.

Only Yale College was male only.

And it's your time there that has interested Normandy, despite your coyness
about it.

Pogue Stewart is flaunting his congenital, carefully cultivated
and lovingly nurtured Grand Ignorance again.

Once again Hines fails to characterise another, while projecting his own
fault and describing himself to the instant recognition of everyone reading
his tiresome jabber.

He never completed his degree at Oxford University and had to
leave Oxford because of Severely Bollixed Brain Syndrome -- after
he fell off his motorcycle while drunk and dandily smashed his
noodle against a cobblestone.

A first - Hines has taken correction for a change, and the cobblestone is
singular at last. But still he persists in ascribing his own guilty feelings
to me, on the mistaken assumption that I should be embarrassed about a mere
accident.

His noodle was so badly discombobulated he could no longer continue at
Oxford. -- DSH

"Quite right for once - I lost the ability to read." -- Peter Stewart

And then Hines, like Wile E, Coyote, effortfully hoists his petar onto
himself, making sure that any new or inattentive reader will be disgusted by
his glee at the misfortune of someone else. But as it happens, I am so
little bothered about this that I posated the details myself. Clearly I
regained the abliity to read, and never lost the ability to see through a
psychopathic fraud.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

If Hines had the ability to read Latin, he would never have been stupid
enough to post this trash....or if he could read and comprehend English, he
would not be stupid enough to go on posting it now.

If he wants to remind everyone of the pathetic, belated and false account he
tried to give of himself over this, it will of course pursue him across
Usenet for as long as he stays in SGM. He isn't remotely perceptive enough
to know the extent of his own ignorance, or smart enough to see his next
faux-pas coming. Soon, if he is fool enough to hang around, he will fall
into another "glory hole" of his own digging.

If he had a grain of sense left he might have resorted by now to his stale
fib of last week, saying that he has looked at SGM again and found it as
(allegedly) dull as when he left it last, so that he will retire once
more....But instead he just comes back for more, and more, and more of the
same.

Peter Stewart

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ob4Di.30403$4A1.24103@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:7F_Ci.220$YE3.602@eagle.america.net...

Bullcrap...

There are all sorts of Yale Alumni & Alumnae Records.

Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46dc6adf$0$5107$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

Yale's alumni records are searchable only by college. [sic]

But no "alumnae" records from 1962 if co-education started there, as far
as I recall, in 1969.


D. Spencer Hines

Re: Vincent Brannigan, Irish-American With Split Loyalties,

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 09:15:21

We can have no "50-50" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an
American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
--- Theodore Roosevelt

Bingo!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 09:30:31

We see evidence of these frequent bouts of illiteracy in Peter's posts on
USENET -- marred as they are by carelessness, ignorance, sloth and poor
logical progression.

He even confesses that he often sees blanks in a sentence.

Yes, we see blanks in his sentences too -- blanks of Reason, Good Sense,
Sensitivity and Understanding of even the simplest matters of Fact &
Logic.

Par For The Course.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:U1Nzi.25805$4A1.13913@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

I still have bouts of illiteracy and trouble with speaking, a kind
of stammer that adds extra syllables.

The other day I came out with a felicitous one, in trying to
desribe [sic] the pornographic content of some spam
messages - I called it "porn-agog-raphy".

Peter Stewart
-----------------------------------------

He says he still has bouts of illiteracy...

Yes, indeed he does -- frequently.

Not frequently, but occasionally. The most tedious problem in reading is
that I sometimes fail to recognise odd words, usually common & simple ones
such as "enough" or "that", and have to make emendations in my head to
work around these blanks in a sentence.

Peter Stewart

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 sep 2007 09:52:37

Hines, you don't have anything like the credibility just to assert such
things: show us examples, provide your reasoning. As you demand of others,
when it suits you, put up or shut up.

I sometimes can't make out odd words. This is not a "confession", but merely
the acknowledgement of a fact that I deal with. Once again, Hines is
projecting the guilt that suffuses his warped psyche.

He can't address my posts on the current thread, he can't even face the
truths in them, so he reverts to some tired old misrepresentations that only
show how twisted he is around the pillars of guilt that hold up his own
wretched life.

Peter Stewart



"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:GJ8Di.231$YE3.43@eagle.america.net...
We see evidence of these frequent bouts of illiteracy in Peter's posts on
USENET -- marred as they are by carelessness, ignorance, sloth and poor
logical progression.

He even confesses that he often sees blanks in a sentence.

Yes, we see blanks in his sentences too -- blanks of Reason, Good Sense,
Sensitivity and Understanding of even the simplest matters of Fact &
Logic.

Par For The Course.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:U1Nzi.25805$4A1.13913@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

I still have bouts of illiteracy and trouble with speaking, a kind
of stammer that adds extra syllables.

The other day I came out with a felicitous one, in trying to
desribe [sic] the pornographic content of some spam
messages - I called it "porn-agog-raphy".

Peter Stewart
-----------------------------------------

He says he still has bouts of illiteracy...

Yes, indeed he does -- frequently.

Not frequently, but occasionally. The most tedious problem in reading is
that I sometimes fail to recognise odd words, usually common & simple
ones
such as "enough" or "that", and have to make emendations in my head to
work around these blanks in a sentence.


James Hogg

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av James Hogg » 04 sep 2007 09:57:51

"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:
wMXCi.217$YE3...@eagle.america.net...

This pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

If he wants to be taken seriously he needs to use his Real Name -- no
pseudonyms need apply.


You can't combine the terms 'Scot' and 'phony' in one sentence. Phil
is the genuine article, and if he says that he was a resident of
Timothy Dwight in 1962 then we can believe him.

Now it's up to Heid-the-Ba' in Hawai'i (DSH) to declare the name and
year of his college.

Jamie

Sab

RE: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Sab » 04 sep 2007 11:34:35

Gaypublican -- how stereotypically quaint? It's bad enough listening to the
bickering back and forth between the Hines & Stewart campus over who's
better, now gay bashing. I really wish this list was moderated, because
I've been deleting more messages than keeping. Flame war or not this is
really getting ridiculous. I do not care who went to what Ivy League school
or blasted Oxford. I don't care what illness someone has and how it affects
them academically and mentally. I don't care and I have a feeling a lot of
other people DO NOT CARE. This is a list for medieval genealogy, not
someone's personal playground where 2 roosters, and there individual
cronies, are having a pecking match to see whose superior.

And oh, Gaypublican is an oxymoron. If you knew anything about the GLBT
community you find that 90% are non-republican and those who are republican
are too ashamed right now to even claim they're republican because of the
state of the republican party in light of GW.

For right now, I'm putting this list on junk delete because it's nothing but
junk right now with just a few morsels of substance.

Sabrina Young



This e-mail communication, including all attachments, may contain private,
proprietary, privileged and/or confidential information and is intended only
for the person to whom it is addressed. Any unauthorized use, copying or
distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you
are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, and have received it in
error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately.

-----Original Message-----
From: zeke zzzzzzzypt [mailto:zzz@zzz.zzz]
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 12:02 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Are you a Gaypublican?

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Pogue Gans, one of the most notorious lard arses on USENET, could not gain
admission to ANY Ivy League college or university in 1951 -- and had to
settle for four years at Ohio State.

Pogue Gans is a chemist at NYU who dabbles in Mediaeval History and False
Charges -- an integral part of his penchant for Character Assassination,
Lies, Red Herrings and Envy.

Pogue Gans LOVES to play with sock puppets, such as 'Normandy'/'Sinclair',
and frequently cannot tell them from Real People with Real Names.

He is a poster boy for Mediocre Academics, Inc. in America.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fbieik$q24$1@reader1.panix.com...

Normandy <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

What college were you in? I think you are about the same age and I am
trying to place you
Class of '62
"We're poor little lambs who have lost our way
Bah, bah, bah.
We're little black sheep who have gone astray
Bah, bah, bah.
Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
Doomed from here to eternity
Lord have mercy on such as we!
Bah, bah, bah."

Normandy
You will NEVER get a factual answer from Hines that reveals
anything about his private life. The only exceptions have
been in moments of pique where he loses control of himself.

You are dealing here with one of the most notorious newsgroup
trolls.

He is not Yale's proudest product.

--
--- Paul J. Gans


Jack Linthicum

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 04 sep 2007 11:51:29

On Sep 4, 1:02 am, zeke zzzzzzzypt <z...@zzz.zzz> wrote:
Are you a Gaypublican?

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Pogue Gans, one of the most notorious lard arses on USENET, could not gain
admission to ANY Ivy League college or university in 1951 -- and had to
settle for four years at Ohio State.

Pogue Gans is a chemist at NYU who dabbles in Mediaeval History and False
Charges -- an integral part of his penchant for Character Assassination,
Lies, Red Herrings and Envy.

Pogue Gans LOVES to play with sock puppets, such as 'Normandy'/'Sinclair',
and frequently cannot tell them from Real People with Real Names.

He is a poster boy for Mediocre Academics, Inc. in America.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Paul J Gans" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fbieik$q24$1@reader1.panix.com...

Normandy <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

What college were you in? I think you are about the same age and I am
trying to place you
Class of '62
"We're poor little lambs who have lost our way
Bah, bah, bah.
We're little black sheep who have gone astray
Bah, bah, bah.
Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
Doomed from here to eternity
Lord have mercy on such as we!
Bah, bah, bah."

Normandy
You will NEVER get a factual answer from Hines that reveals
anything about his private life. The only exceptions have
been in moments of pique where he loses control of himself.

You are dealing here with one of the most notorious newsgroup
trolls.

He is not Yale's proudest product.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Perhaps not, but he plays one on the usenet.

Normandy

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Normandy » 04 sep 2007 12:48:23

You are dealing here with one of the most notorious newsgroup
trolls.

He is not Yale's proudest product.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Perhaps not, but he plays one on the usenet.


Why does a simple non aggressive question become such an issue? Yale's motto
is actually Lux et Veritas.

Libertas was the Roman goddess of liberty. Libertas temples were on the
Palatine Hill and Aventine I do not know where Libertas comes in. Perhaps
Mr Hines was not referring to Yale at all. He just like to write a corrupt
Latin. Bit of fun, by using the motto as part of his signature and adding to
he has been misconstrued as claiming Yale as his University and the joke is
on the readers of his posting.

Normandy

Jack Linthicum

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 04 sep 2007 12:55:47

On Sep 4, 7:48 am, "Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
You are dealing here with one of the most notorious newsgroup
trolls.

He is not Yale's proudest product.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Perhaps not, but he plays one on the usenet.

Why does a simple non aggressive question become such an issue? Yale's motto
is actually Lux et Veritas.

Libertas was the Roman goddess of liberty. Libertas temples were on the
Palatine Hill and Aventine I do not know where Libertas comes in. Perhaps
Mr Hines was not referring to Yale at all. He just like to write a corrupt
Latin. Bit of fun, by using the motto as part of his signature and adding to
he has been misconstrued as claiming Yale as his University and the joke is
on the readers of his posting.

Normandy

One of the clinical aspects of Hines is is seeming inability to
connect events together. He will respond to a post on one thread on
another, start a thread just to answer a post on another and "create"
threads that are actually ones he has posted before.

I hit on him working up a new computer sometime past and got a sense
that he has a collection of his "favorites" on disc. The first King of
England to speak English, is a favorite, plus his spurious "cousins"
from some genealogy that wouldn't get you into the Sons of the
Revolution or the Brit equivalent.

Frances Kemmish

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Frances Kemmish » 04 sep 2007 12:58:41

Normandy wrote:
You are dealing here with one of the most notorious newsgroup
trolls.

He is not Yale's proudest product.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Perhaps not, but he plays one on the usenet.



Why does a simple non aggressive question become such an issue? Yale's motto
is actually Lux et Veritas.

Libertas was the Roman goddess of liberty. Libertas temples were on the
Palatine Hill and Aventine I do not know where Libertas comes in. Perhaps
Mr Hines was not referring to Yale at all. He just like to write a corrupt
Latin. Bit of fun, by using the motto as part of his signature and adding to
he has been misconstrued as claiming Yale as his University and the joke is
on the readers of his posting.


Unfortunately, he really is an alumnus of Yale (Timothy Dwight College,
I believe). He used to post using his AYA email address.

Fran

Normandy

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Normandy » 04 sep 2007 13:16:28

"Frances Kemmish" <fkemmish@optonline.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
5k4vi6F257odU1@mid.individual.net...
Normandy wrote:
You are dealing here with one of the most notorious newsgroup
trolls.

He is not Yale's proudest product.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Perhaps not, but he plays one on the usenet.



Why does a simple non aggressive question become such an issue? Yale's
motto is actually Lux et Veritas.

Libertas was the Roman goddess of liberty. Libertas temples were on the
Palatine Hill and Aventine I do not know where Libertas comes in.
Perhaps Mr Hines was not referring to Yale at all. He just like to write
a corrupt Latin. Bit of fun, by using the motto as part of his signature
and adding to he has been misconstrued as claiming Yale as his University
and the joke is on the readers of his posting.


Unfortunately, he really is an alumnus of Yale (Timothy Dwight College, I
believe). He used to post using his AYA email address.

Fran

Thanks it such a simple question why all the fuss. There are two D. Hines in
the directory, one from Hawaii in '63 and one from California in '85, long
after my time.

Normandy

Jack Linthicum

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 04 sep 2007 13:42:50

On Sep 4, 8:16 am, "Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
"Frances Kemmish" <fkemm...@optonline.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
5k4vi6F257o...@mid.individual.net...



Normandy wrote:
You are dealing here with one of the most notorious newsgroup
trolls.

He is not Yale's proudest product.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Perhaps not, but he plays one on the usenet.

Why does a simple non aggressive question become such an issue? Yale's
motto is actually Lux et Veritas.

Libertas was the Roman goddess of liberty. Libertas temples were on the
Palatine Hill and Aventine I do not know where Libertas comes in.
Perhaps Mr Hines was not referring to Yale at all. He just like to write
a corrupt Latin. Bit of fun, by using the motto as part of his signature
and adding to he has been misconstrued as claiming Yale as his University
and the joke is on the readers of his posting.

Unfortunately, he really is an alumnus of Yale (Timothy Dwight College, I
believe). He used to post using his AYA email address.

Fran

Thanks it such a simple question why all the fuss. There are two D. Hines in
the directory, one from Hawaii in '63 and one from California in '85, long
after my time.

Normandy

I have seen references to a son and a daughter. She is is said to be
quite bright and outgoing. Question, since he claims 1962 as his
graduation date, is the 1963 just the publication of the list or
suggest something else. Heh heh, as it were.

Normandy

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Normandy » 04 sep 2007 13:59:10

Thanks it such a simple question why all the fuss. There are two D. Hines
in
the directory, one from Hawaii in '63 and one from California in '85,
long
after my time.

Normandy

I have seen references to a son and a daughter. She is is said to be
quite bright and outgoing. Question, since he claims 1962 as his
graduation date, is the 1963 just the publication of the list or
suggest something else. Heh heh, as it were.

62 was my year 63 is what is listed for David Hines at Timothy Dwight there
may be other D. Hines in other colleges who were in the class of '62 or the
information in the directory may incorrect or need updating.



Normandy

Martin

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Martin » 04 sep 2007 14:46:02

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:fDYCi.218$YE3.512@eagle.america.net...
This pogue 'Normandy' won't reveal his Real Name.

DSH

What's wrong David, did he flick you with a wet towel... or flush your fat
head down a toilet?

Ken Ozanne

Re: REVELL

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 04 sep 2007 15:09:50

MAR,

I'm in the process of buying a copy of the 1611 Visitation from the British
Library. I ordered 100 pages worth to start, expect to buy the rest once I
see that is satisfactory.

They are being dilatory in the matter (I paid about 3 weeks ago) and I'm
afraid the first batch will not get to REVELL. However, in the fullness of
time I shall have the pedigree. I'll try to remember to send you the
information, but you might care to check back in a month or so if other
sources don't prove quicker.

Best,
Ken


On 4/9/07 23:00, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
<gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: mjcar@btinternet.com
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:47:01 -0700
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Revells of Ogston and Lenton

Has anyone on-list put together a pedigree of the Revell family of
Ogston, Derbyshire, and Lenton, Notts?

Alternatively, does anyone had access to the family's stemma in the
1611 Visitation of Derbyshire?

MAR

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 04 sep 2007 15:10:51

Peter Stewart wrote:

I sometimes can't make out odd words.

Why not? Can you make them out if you read the
sentence twice?

Deirdre

Martin

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Martin » 04 sep 2007 15:12:12

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46dd56a4$0$27407$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

Thanks it such a simple question why all the fuss. There are two D. Hines
in
the directory, one from Hawaii in '63 and one from California in '85,
long
after my time.

Normandy

I have seen references to a son and a daughter. She is is said to be
quite bright and outgoing. Question, since he claims 1962 as his
graduation date, is the 1963 just the publication of the list or
suggest something else. Heh heh, as it were.

62 was my year 63 is what is listed for David Hines at Timothy Dwight
there may be other D. Hines in other colleges who were in the class of '62
or the information in the directory may incorrect or need updating.

Surely 'Dwight Frye' College?

Joking apart, the 'Spencer' bit was added later, in order to make grandiose
and absurd genealogical claims to puff plain old DH, during some crisis of
confidence. He has openly referred to the late Princess of Wales, Diana, as
'cousin Diana', and the Black Prince as 'great grandfather Edward'.... need
I say more?

I can't imagine how ghastly he was at college, after having been rejected by
the Skull and Bones mob and no doubt festering in his room, plotting
revenge. Anyone who has seen the film 'Animal House' (set in the early
1960's) will no doubt remember Douglas C Niedermeyer, the posturing,
perverted head of the OTC at Faber College, and wondered whether DSH was the
model for this most unsavoury character. Niedemeyer was of course shot by
his own troops in Vietnam, but luckily for Hines, he never went there and
his staff in the Housing Office at Pearl Harbour were not usually armed...

Any anecdotes and tales of DSH's student days would be most welcome - they
may possibly be as hilarious as the details of his lacklustre Naval career,
which have provided many hours of delight, mirth and amusement to many folk
on Usenet.

Cheers
Martin

Martin

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Martin » 04 sep 2007 15:37:50

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:p19Di.30545$4A1.25713@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Hines, you don't have anything like the credibility just to assert such
things: show us examples, provide your reasoning. As you demand of others,
when it suits you, put up or shut up.

I sometimes can't make out odd words. This is not a "confession", but
merely the acknowledgement of a fact that I deal with. Once again, Hines
is projecting the guilt that suffuses his warped psyche.

He can't address my posts on the current thread, he can't even face the
truths in them, so he reverts to some tired old misrepresentations that
only show how twisted he is around the pillars of guilt that hold up his
own wretched life.

Well put Peter, but I fear a waste of your time. For many years now DSH has
been given the benefit of good advice and expert psychoanalysis without
charge, but it has done little good. Hines is stuck in a terrible rut of his
own making, like a blind hamster (or more likely a rat) trapped within an
eternal wheel. When he refuses to reply, you have 'won' - as you seem to
have done. He has no answer, there is nothing to say.... you have placed a
16" shell squarely into his magazine, he has gone down to 'Davey Hines
Locker'.

Like the Flying Dutchman however, he will return, like a dishevelled
zombieto his eternal task - which is making everyone as miserable as he can.
Not easy for David, since he is so ineffectual, but he does have a use,
providing great pleasure for the many of who are unsporting enough to enjoy
shooting rats in a barrel - or scoring bullseye after bullseye on the
enormous target glued to his gigantic, wizened arse. A cruel pleasure, but
pleasure is pleasure, and why not?

Cheers
Martin

Normandy

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Normandy » 04 sep 2007 16:36:56

Joking apart, the 'Spencer' bit was added later, in order to make
grandiose
and absurd genealogical claims to puff plain old DH, during some crisis of
confidence. He has openly referred to the late Princess of Wales, Diana,
as 'cousin Diana', and the Black Prince as 'great grandfather Edward'....
need I say more?


Any anecdotes and tales of DSH's student days would be most welcome - they
may possibly be as hilarious as the details of his lacklustre Naval
career, which have provided many hours of delight, mirth and amusement to
many folk on Usenet.

Cheers
Martin

I would dislike people to repeat antidotes of my student days, especially if
they were referencing to Northampton Mass. My little brown and white Sunbeam
Alpine was called, by the ladies of Smith, the Biological Bug. Ah! those
were the days when we all thought we would live forever or die young and be
a good looking corpse.

Diana, Princess of Wales was a descendant of King Charles II of England
through four illegitimate sons: Henry Fitzroy, 1st Duke of Grafton, son by
Barbara Villiers, 1st Duchess of Cleveland, Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of
Richmond and Lennox, son by Louise de Kérouaille, 1st Duchess of Portsmouth,
Charles Beauclerk, son by Nell Gwyn, James Crofts- Scott, 1st Duke of
Monmouth who had a son by Lucy Walter. Her family line also comes from of
King James II of England through an illegitimate daughter, Henrietta
FitzJames. Henrietta's mother was Arabella Churchill, the sister of John
Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough. Where does Edward, the Black Prince come
into it?

The Black Prince died in AD 1376 assuming a generation of 25 years to call
Edward 'great grandfather Edward' would have been a feat beyond mortal men.
In normal genealogical terms if anyone could trace their linage back that
far it would have to be the 17th great grandfather.

Fitz indicates the illegitimate sons of kings and princes of the blood. Give
the man the benefit of doubt you are saying, if I understand correctly, that
the claimant in question is calling himself a descended bastard.

Normandy

Gjest

Re: Revell and Comberford

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 sep 2007 17:09:30

On 4 Sep., 16:55, Maytr...@aol.com wrote:
As I understand it Mary Comberford was the daughter Thomas Comberford of
Comberford, Staffordshire and his wife Dorothy Fitzherbert . Thomas Comberford
was the son of John Comberford and Joan Parle. Dorothy Fitzherbert was the
daughter of Raulff Fitzherbert of Norberye and his wife, Elizabeth Marshall of
Upton in Leicestershire.

Rose
Surrey / UK

Thanks again, Rose

This does seem to be the general view. However, I am not sure the
chronology is right.

The son of Thomas Comberford and Dorothy Fitzherbert was Humphrey
Comberford, who married Dorothy Beaumont. Dorothy was the second of
three daughters and coheiresses of John Beaumont of Wednesbury, who
died in 1502. This suggests that the latest birthdate for Dorothy
Beaumont was about 1500.

If Mary was also the daughter of Thomas Comberford, then I would
expect her also to be born 1490-1510, but she seems to be younger than
this, based on the dates of her grandchildren.

I wonder whether there is any primary evidence for her place in the
Comberford family!

I did see that your Heveninghams tied in there somewhere too...

Best wishes, Michael

Gjest

Re: REVELL

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 sep 2007 17:10:21

On 4 Sep., 15:09, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:
MAR,

I'm in the process of buying a copy of the 1611 Visitation from the British
Library. I ordered 100 pages worth to start, expect to buy the rest once I
see that is satisfactory.

They are being dilatory in the matter (I paid about 3 weeks ago) and I'm
afraid the first batch will not get to REVELL. However, in the fullness of
time I shall have the pedigree. I'll try to remember to send you the
information, but you might care to check back in a month or so if other
sources don't prove quicker.

Ken

Many thanks indeed - and good luck with getting it!

Cheers, Michael

Martin

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Martin » 04 sep 2007 17:34:04

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46dd7b99$0$27378$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
Joking apart, the 'Spencer' bit was added later, in order to make
grandiose
and absurd genealogical claims to puff plain old DH, during some crisis
of confidence. He has openly referred to the late Princess of Wales,
Diana, as 'cousin Diana', and the Black Prince as 'great grandfather
Edward'.... need I say more?


Any anecdotes and tales of DSH's student days would be most welcome -
they may possibly be as hilarious as the details of his lacklustre Naval
career, which have provided many hours of delight, mirth and amusement to
many folk on Usenet.

Cheers
Martin

I would dislike people to repeat antidotes of my student days, especially
if they were referencing to Northampton Mass. My little brown and white
Sunbeam Alpine was called, by the ladies of Smith, the Biological Bug. Ah!
those were the days when we all thought we would live forever or die young
and be a good looking corpse.

Alas, 'such is life' (last words of Ned Kelly on the scaffold).

I too would be less than pleased to see the antics, activities and
atrocities (there is no other word) which I engaged in during my University
days, repeated on the Internet. Fortunately, I can't remember many of them
myself for some reason, which may spare me from indignity, embarrassment and
belated prosecution (no 'statute of limitations' in the UK!)

My trusty Triumph Herald (KA 'The Black Bastard") is still sought by the
Police forces of several counties, though all that now remains of her are
one Bulgarian remould tyre on a banded rim, the extractor exhaust manifold,
stage IV head and Weber carburettors, buried somewhere beneath a pile of
junk in the garage along with the Ark of the Covenant and Holy Grail. Matt
black was a good choice of colour...

Diana, Princess of Wales was a descendant of King Charles II of England
through four illegitimate sons: Henry Fitzroy, 1st Duke of Grafton, son by
Barbara Villiers, 1st Duchess of Cleveland, Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of
Richmond and Lennox, son by Louise de Kérouaille, 1st Duchess of
Portsmouth, Charles Beauclerk, son by Nell Gwyn, James Crofts- Scott, 1st
Duke of Monmouth who had a son by Lucy Walter. Her family line also comes
from of King James II of England through an illegitimate daughter,
Henrietta FitzJames. Henrietta's mother was Arabella Churchill, the sister
of John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough. Where does Edward, the Black
Prince come into it?

Er... ask DSH I suppose?

The Black Prince died in AD 1376 assuming a generation of 25 years to call
Edward 'great grandfather Edward' would have been a feat beyond mortal
men. In normal genealogical terms if anyone could trace their linage back
that far it would have to be the 17th great grandfather.

Fitz indicates the illegitimate sons of kings and princes of the blood.
Give the man the benefit of doubt you are saying, if I understand
correctly, that the claimant in question is calling himself a descended
bastard.

A right bastard, little question about that. A pretentious one too. The
arrogance of Henry VIII, the nature of Richard II and the manner of George
IV are an unfortunate combination with the intelligence of Henry III, as our
Spency has found to his cost. Sad fellow...

Cheers
Martin

Gjest

Re: Revell and Comberford

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 sep 2007 18:00:04

As I understand it Mary Comberford was the daughter Thomas Comberford of
Comberford, Staffordshire and his wife Dorothy Fitzherbert . Thomas Comberford
was the son of John Comberford and Joan Parle. Dorothy Fitzherbert was the
daughter of Raulff Fitzherbert of Norberye and his wife, Elizabeth Marshall of
Upton in Leicestershire.

Rose
Surrey / UK

Paul J Gans

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Paul J Gans » 04 sep 2007 19:00:10

In soc.history.medieval Martin <martin1471spamfck@outgun.com> wrote:

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46dd7b99$0$27378$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

Joking apart, the 'Spencer' bit was added later, in order to make
grandiose
and absurd genealogical claims to puff plain old DH, during some crisis
of confidence. He has openly referred to the late Princess of Wales,
Diana, as 'cousin Diana', and the Black Prince as 'great grandfather
Edward'.... need I say more?


Any anecdotes and tales of DSH's student days would be most welcome -
they may possibly be as hilarious as the details of his lacklustre Naval
career, which have provided many hours of delight, mirth and amusement to
many folk on Usenet.

Cheers
Martin

I would dislike people to repeat antidotes of my student days, especially
if they were referencing to Northampton Mass. My little brown and white
Sunbeam Alpine was called, by the ladies of Smith, the Biological Bug. Ah!
those were the days when we all thought we would live forever or die young
and be a good looking corpse.

Alas, 'such is life' (last words of Ned Kelly on the scaffold).

I too would be less than pleased to see the antics, activities and
atrocities (there is no other word) which I engaged in during my University
days, repeated on the Internet. Fortunately, I can't remember many of them
myself for some reason, which may spare me from indignity, embarrassment and
belated prosecution (no 'statute of limitations' in the UK!)

My trusty Triumph Herald (KA 'The Black Bastard") is still sought by the
Police forces of several counties, though all that now remains of her are
one Bulgarian remould tyre on a banded rim, the extractor exhaust manifold,
stage IV head and Weber carburettors, buried somewhere beneath a pile of
junk in the garage along with the Ark of the Covenant and Holy Grail. Matt
black was a good choice of colour...

Well. Then I shall not report on one mad trip to Hastings
to check reports of strange goings-on in the surrounding
woods.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

William Black

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av William Black » 04 sep 2007 19:21:13

"Martin" <martin1471spamfck@outgun.com> wrote in message
news:0OfDi.44175$S91.18292@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...

My trusty Triumph Herald (KA 'The Black Bastard")

Not a Vitesse?

I'm surprised.

They were a real hooligan's car

Mind you, I had a Herald in 1971, a rather nice estate.

Chassis fell to bits after a couple of years...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Don Stone

Re: Byzantine Traditions

Legg inn av Don Stone » 04 sep 2007 19:29:45

Leo van de Pas wrote:
In ES Volume II Tafel 179 the Angeloi family is recorded. There is Emperor Isaac II and with him his two wives.
Wife nr 1 is NN
their children, Alexios IV, an unnamed daughter, and Eirene (Maria)
Wife nr 2 is Margaretha of Hungary
their children Manuel and Ioannes

I understand that in Byzantium children were not named after their parents, BUT daughter Eirene has on her necrology the name of her mother recorded, and it appears that NN is Herina (Eirene).

Could the mother's name have been a monastic one? Was she perhaps divorced by Isaac II ? There doesn't seem to be any record of this first wife of Isaac II. Does anyone know?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia


Leo,

In December of 2005 John Ravilious assembled a good anthology of SGM
discussions about the mother of Eirene; see
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1134524327.

-- Don Stone

WJhonson

Re: REVELL

Legg inn av WJhonson » 04 sep 2007 19:51:26

Here is a bit of background on the Comberford's at least, much needed for me and perhaps others as I had nothing previously on them. Now Thomas, son of Humfrey Comberford and Dorothy Beaumont has at least three unique royal ascents.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DEgJAA ... #PPA293,M1


Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Leo's Continuing Difficulties In Counting Genealogical D

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 19:56:02

"A very kind person helped me with information about the Stuyvesant family,
I have digested this and made a file just to see what it brought together
and it is quite amazing (to me) who are to be found amongst the descendants
of this family. Kirk Douglas, Montgomery Clift, Eleanor Roosevelt, Robert
Traill Spence Lowel IV, Adam von Trott zu Solz (involved in the conspiracy
against Hitler), Princess Maria Antonia de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal,
and many others." -- Leo van de Pas

ALL the others named above are allegedly DESCENDANTS of a STUYVESANT.

Kirk Douglas is NOT and Maria Antonia de Braganca, Infanta of Potugal, is
allegedly NOT.

Let's use a biological example. We have a list of sea animals here -- a
dolphin, an oyster, an octopus, a shark, a crab -- AND then we spot a
PANTHER, the first one on the list and a DOE, the last one on the list.

Kirk Douglas is the PANTHER. -- He doesn't FIT.

Princess Maria Antonia de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal, is the DOE. She
doesn't FIT.

Kirk Douglas is NOT a Stuyvesant Descendant, neither allegedly is Maria
Antonia de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal, whereas the FOUR others
allegedly ARE Stuyvesant Descendants.

4. Leo doesn't even know what a DESCENDANT is in GENEALOGY!

Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!

A self-professed Genealogist, constantly working in the English language,
who doesn't even understand what a DESCENDANT is....

Further, Leo is flummoxed, farbissen and farblondjet -- so, he wriggles,
throws out red herring strawmen and tries to move the goal posts.

His latest gaffe is in confusing Howard Dean of Vermont with Tom Kean of New
Jersey.

Victoria, it just doesn't get any better than this.

And he has some sort of fixation on "trhe East Coast of Europe".

What's THAT All About?

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

D. Spencer Hines

Re: I Remember Diana, Princess Of Wales

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 20:07:11

Do the grandchildren of Dukes and Earls have any titles or unique styles?

DSH

Duvall, Jeffery A

RE: Comberfords (was Ravell)

Legg inn av Duvall, Jeffery A » 04 sep 2007 20:08:45

Does anyone know of a solid source on whether or not Katherine, wife of
Sir Thomas Hercy of Grove (d. 1424), was either a member of this family
or a even Comberford at all? I seem to recall that some sources (see
for instance the Testamenta Eboracensia: Or Wills Registered at
York...in google print:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9oIJAA ... thomas+her
cy+of+grove+and+comberford) identify her as a Comberford, while others
(such as Hercy's bio in the History of Parliament series) do not.

Thanks.

Jeff Duvall

Duvall, Jeffery A

RE: Oops...Comberfords (was Ravell)

Legg inn av Duvall, Jeffery A » 04 sep 2007 20:16:02

Oops, sorry about that. I now see that the Testamenta Eboracensia
corrects the identification and lists her as a Cumberworth not a
Comberford. I guess her ancestry will remain a mystery after all.

Jeff D.

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Duvall, Jeffery
A
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:09 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Comberfords (was Ravell)

Does anyone know of a solid source on whether or not Katherine, wife of
Sir Thomas Hercy of Grove (d. 1424), was either a member of this family
or a even Comberford at all? I seem to recall that some sources (see
for instance the Testamenta Eboracensia: Or Wills Registered at
York...in google print:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9oIJAA ... thomas+her
cy+of+grove+and+comberford) identify her as a Comberford, while others
(such as Hercy's bio in the History of Parliament series) do not.

Thanks.

Jeff Duvall




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WJhonson

Re: Comberfords (was Ravell)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 04 sep 2007 20:17:28

And slyly by the way....

Please note the *correction* to the name of the wife of Thomas Throckmorton who previously was known as "Margaret OR Mary Whorwood", this document making it pointedly clear her name was Margaret.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: REVELL

Legg inn av WJhonson » 04 sep 2007 20:25:25

Which John is this one?
Is this Mary Comberford's husband? Or her son?

Will Johnson


Nottinghamshire Archives: Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/FJ/2 - DD/FJ/10]


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Foljambe of Osberton: Deeds and Estate Papers
Catalogue Ref. 157 DD/FJ
Creator(s):
Foljambe family of Osberton, Nottinghamshire

[Access Conditions]
Accessible to all holders of a reader's ticket.


DOCUMENTS RELATING TO TITLE. - ref. DD/FJ/3

BONDS.

FILE [no title] - ref. DD/FJ/3/1/3 - date: 26 June 14 Eliz. I (1572)
[from Scope and Content] 1) John Revell of Comberford (Staffs.), gent.

Leticia Cluff

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 04 sep 2007 20:33:18

On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:45:18 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr>
wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
diNCi.208$YE3.106@eagle.america.net...
Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and
that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum._

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas


What was your college? I was on Temple Street

Normandy



Habetis bona deum


Hello, Normandy, and welcome to whichever of these multiple newsgroups
you have just joined. If you think that Mock Latin like that will
ingratiate you with Mr. Hines, then I am afraid you will be
disappointed. Fishing for personal information about Mr. Hines is also
doomed to failure.

The person cross-posting as "DSH" is a fraud and a troll, you see. No
one knows who he is. He has taken over the name and persona of a real
Yale alumnus, the son of a distinguished naval man. You will not need
to read many of his posts before you become aware that no one with
such a distinguished background could be responsible for the ignorance
and antisocial behavior the imposter displays here. The inept way he
posts exactly the same message several times over indicates that he is
drunk most of the time he spends at the computer.

You only need to look at the email address to see that he's a fake. To
top it all, he claims to post from The Mory's Association, a lie which
is a source of considerable dismay to the real organization of that
name.

A typical feature of his fradulent behavior is that, whenever a
bonafide new poster arrives in any of the numerous groups that "DSH"
pollutes with his presence, he immediately screams "phony" or "sock
puppet."

If you decide to hang around, you may get some education and
entertainment from the replies to DSH's posts. You certainly won't get
any enlightenment from the troll himself.


Tish
My email address is real, apart from the obvious antispam device

Turenne

Re: I Remember Diana, Princess Of Wales

Legg inn av Turenne » 04 sep 2007 20:45:00

On 4 Sep, 20:07, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Do the grandchildren of Dukes and Earls have any titles or unique styles?

DSH

It varies; the grandson of the Duke of Wellington is the Earl of
Mornington and the grandson of the Duke of Marlborough is the Earl of
Sunderland, it all depends on how many subsidiary titles a particular
duke has. The grandsons of earls have no titles or prefixes unless
they are the sons or daughters of the eldest son (if he has a title).
For example, the eldest son of the Earl Cadogan is the Viscount
Chelsea, his sons and daughters are 'Hons'.

Richard

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 20:58:11

On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:45:18 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr

wrote:

Habetis bona deum

<G>

Not too bad -- for a rank beginner.

But he needs to keep working at it -- that's pretty crude.

I have a fair-to-middling idea of what 'Normandy's' Real Name is now.

He MAY be better at Mock French.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

WJhonson

Re: William Cecil PERY, Baron Glentworth

Legg inn av WJhonson » 04 sep 2007 21:02:41

<<In a message dated 09/04/07 10:46:35 Pacific Standard Time, donmac@netactive.co.za writes:
Jane WALCOTT was b 1740, so this settlement dated 1712 to Eleanor would have
been when she was a minor. >>

----------------
I'm suspicious that evidence of this particular birthyear exists. Does it?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Normandy

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Normandy » 04 sep 2007 21:04:57

"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: g5brd3tupdicscqeh0citbucfvf9s80mio@4ax.com...
On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:45:18 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr
wrote:


"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:
diNCi.208$YE3.106@eagle.america.net...
Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and
that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and
the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum._

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas


What was your college? I was on Temple Street

Normandy



Habetis bona deum


Hello, Normandy, and welcome to whichever of these multiple newsgroups
you have just joined. If you think that Mock Latin like that will
ingratiate you with Mr. Hines, then I am afraid you will be
disappointed. Fishing for personal information about Mr. Hines is also
doomed to failure.

The person cross-posting as "DSH" is a fraud and a troll, you see. No
one knows who he is. He has taken over the name and persona of a real
Yale alumnus, the son of a distinguished naval man. You will not need
to read many of his posts before you become aware that no one with
such a distinguished background could be responsible for the ignorance
and antisocial behavior the imposter displays here. The inept way he
posts exactly the same message several times over indicates that he is
drunk most of the time he spends at the computer.

You only need to look at the email address to see that he's a fake. To
top it all, he claims to post from The Mory's Association, a lie which
is a source of considerable dismay to the real organization of that
name.

A typical feature of his fradulent behavior is that, whenever a
bonafide new poster arrives in any of the numerous groups that "DSH"
pollutes with his presence, he immediately screams "phony" or "sock
puppet."

If you decide to hang around, you may get some education and
entertainment from the replies to DSH's posts. You certainly won't get
any enlightenment from the troll himself.


Tish
My email address is real, apart from the obvious antispam device

Thanks unfortunately you seem to right about a troll. It is a shame this
group should be about history not a weird personality. Weird can sometimes
be amusing but not for long.

Normandy

William Black

Re: Addition for ODNB: Sir Richard Pole's first wife, Alice

Legg inn av William Black » 04 sep 2007 21:22:45

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1188934602.876875.33720@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

I just checked the new account of Margaret Plantagenet, Countess of
Salisbury, in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (or ODNB),
which account was prepared by the historian, Hazel Pierce [Reference:
ODNB (2004): (biog. of Margaret Pole) (article available online at http://
http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/22451). Ms. Pierce is also the author
of the most recent biography of Margaret Plantagenet entitled Margaret
Pole which was published in 2003. Unfortunately the new ODNB account
makes no mention of Margaret Plantagenet being Sir Richard Pole's
second wife. Rather, it follows the standard line taken by past
historians that Margaret Plantagenet was Sir Richard's only wife.

One wonders why this should be the case when the evidence of the Pole-
Langford marriage was initially presented by F.N. Macnamara in his
book, Memorials of the Danvers Family, back in 1895. However, I've
found that historians are notoriously bad genealogists. In this case,
the author of the ODNB article missed both the Danvers book and the
published abstract of the Chancery proceeding which proved the Pole-
Langford marriage.



Comments are invited.

Have you written to Dr Hazel M Pierce MA PhD and explained her error ?

She's not a difficult person to find...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 21:49:18

Hilarious!

One sock puppet chats up another one.

Victoria, it just doesn't get any better than this.

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46ddba6c$0$5091$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> a écrit dans le message
de news: g5brd3tupdicscqeh0citbucfvf9s80mio@4ax.com...

On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:45:18 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr
wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:

diNCi.208$YE3.106@eagle.america.net...

Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and
that _CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and
the employment of familiar classical tie-ins.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum._

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

What was your college? I was on Temple Street

Normandy

Habetis bona deum


Hello, Normandy, and welcome to whichever of these multiple newsgroups
you have just joined. If you think that Mock Latin like that will
ingratiate you with Mr. Hines, then I am afraid you will be
disappointed. Fishing for personal information about Mr. Hines is also
doomed to failure.

The person cross-posting as "DSH" is a fraud and a troll, you see. No
one knows who he is. He has taken over the name and persona of a real
Yale alumnus, the son of a distinguished naval man. You will not need
to read many of his posts before you become aware that no one with
such a distinguished background could be responsible for the ignorance
and antisocial behavior the imposter displays here. The inept way he
posts exactly the same message several times over indicates that he is
drunk most of the time he spends at the computer.

You only need to look at the email address to see that he's a fake. To
top it all, he claims to post from The Mory's Association, a lie which
is a source of considerable dismay to the real organization of that
name.

A typical feature of his fradulent behavior is that, whenever a
bonafide new poster arrives in any of the numerous groups that "DSH"
pollutes with his presence, he immediately screams "phony" or "sock
puppet."

If you decide to hang around, you may get some education and
entertainment from the replies to DSH's posts. You certainly won't get
any enlightenment from the troll himself.

Tish

My email address is real, apart from the obvious antispam device

Thanks unfortunately you seem to right about a troll. It is a shame this
group should be about history not a weird personality. Weird can sometimes
be amusing but not for long.

Normandy

James Hogg

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av James Hogg » 04 sep 2007 22:11:40

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 05:58:11 +1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<panther@excelsior.com> wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:45:18 +0200, "Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr

wrote:

Habetis bona deum

G

Not too bad -- for a rank beginner.

But he needs to keep working at it -- that's pretty crude.

I have a fair-to-middling idea of what 'Normandy's' Real Name is now.

Fair-to-middling's nae bad for a rank beginner on the Internet. Keep
working at it and in a few years you might even be able to find
information with the aid of Google.

One thing you'll discover is that Normandy is a popular chap, which
makes quite a contrast to being the most hated get on Usenet.

He MAY be better at Mock French.

In ANY contest between le Seigneur de la Behottière and the
Chanty Wrassler frae Kailua, the outcome is a foregone conclusion.

Lux et Vim et Omo

Jamie

D. Spencer Hines

Re: I Remember Diana, Princess Of Wales

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 sep 2007 22:11:53

Thank you kindly.

Winston Churchill, as a grandson of the 7th Duke of Marlborough, was an
Honourable, or not?

He was a Right Honorable as an MP, right?

DSH

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1188935100.972440.223520@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

On 4 Sep, 20:07, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Do the grandchildren of Dukes and Earls have any titles or unique styles?

DSH

It varies; the grandson of the Duke of Wellington is the Earl of
Mornington and the grandson of the Duke of Marlborough is the Earl of
Sunderland, it all depends on how many subsidiary titles a particular
duke has. The grandsons of earls have no titles or prefixes unless
they are the sons or daughters of the eldest son (if he has a title).
For example, the eldest son of the Earl Cadogan is the Viscount
Chelsea, his sons and daughters are 'Hons'.

Richard

Leo van de Pas

Re: Byzantine Traditions

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 04 sep 2007 22:22:03

Dear Don,

Many thanks for this.One more funny thing the necrology for Eirene the
daughter is in Speyer Cathedral, but ES gives she was buried in Kloster
Lorsch.

With best wishes and many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Stone" <don@donstonetech.com>
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
Cc: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: Byzantine Traditions


Leo van de Pas wrote:
In ES Volume II Tafel 179 the Angeloi family is recorded. There is
Emperor Isaac II and with him his two wives.
Wife nr 1 is NN
their children, Alexios IV, an unnamed daughter, and Eirene (Maria)
Wife nr 2 is Margaretha of Hungary
their children Manuel and Ioannes

I understand that in Byzantium children were not named after their
parents, BUT daughter Eirene has on her necrology the name of her mother
recorded, and it appears that NN is Herina (Eirene).

Could the mother's name have been a monastic one? Was she perhaps
divorced by Isaac II ? There doesn't seem to be any record of this first
wife of Isaac II. Does anyone know?

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia


Leo,

In December of 2005 John Ravilious assembled a good anthology of SGM
discussions about the mother of Eirene; see
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1134524327.

-- Don Stone

William Black

Re: I Remember Diana, Princess Of Wales

Legg inn av William Black » 04 sep 2007 22:25:08

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:ZSjDi.244$YE3.619@eagle.america.net...
Thank you kindly.

Winston Churchill, as a grandson of the 7th Duke of Marlborough, was an
Honourable, or not?

He was a Right Honorable as an MP, right?

Wrong


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Turenne

Re: I Remember Diana, Princess Of Wales

Legg inn av Turenne » 04 sep 2007 22:28:36

DSH wrote:

Winston Churchill, as a grandson of the 7th Duke of Marlborough, was an
Honourable, or not?

He was a Right Honorable as an MP, right?

Nearly right: Churchill was the son of Lord Randolph Churchill who in
turn was a younger son of The Duke of Marlborough. Sons of younger
sons of dukes aren't 'Hons'. A Right Hon. is a member of the Privy
Council and is also the correct way to address barons, viscounts and
earls. So yes, an MP may be a Right Hon. but only if he is a member of
the Privy Council.

Richard

David

Re: I Remember Diana, Princess Of Wales

Legg inn av David » 04 sep 2007 22:52:57

On Sep 4, 4:28 pm, Turenne <richard.licht...@virgin.net> wrote:
DSH wrote:
Winston Churchill, as a grandson of the 7th Duke of Marlborough, was an
Honourable, or not?
He was a Right Honorable as an MP, right?

Nearly right: Churchill was the son of Lord Randolph Churchill who in
turn was a younger son of The Duke of Marlborough. Sons of younger
sons of dukes aren't 'Hons'. A Right Hon. is a member of the Privy
Council and is also the correct way to address barons, viscounts and
earls. So yes, an MP may be a Right Hon. but only if he is a member of
the Privy Council.

Richard

Winston Churchill was sworn of the Privy Council on May 1, 1907, when
he was serving as Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies in the
Campbell-Bannerman government.

Peter Stewart

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 sep 2007 23:24:59

"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:46DD6757.7BDB3F01@sbcglobal.net...

Peter Stewart wrote:

I sometimes can't make out odd words.

Why not? Can you make them out if you read the
sentence twice?

No, this is the result of a brain impairment that was acquired in the 1970s.

When I falter on a word, usually a common one, it's a waste of time trying
to resolve the seemingly meaningless jumble into a recognisable series of
letters. I just guess.

My reading and learning processes when I recovered from a period of total
illiteracy were different from before.

Peter Stewart

WJhonson

Re: SALINS

Legg inn av WJhonson » 05 sep 2007 00:38:26

<<In a message dated 09/04/07 16:28:09 Pacific Standard Time, l.akershoek@hccnet.nl writes:
1 MAURETTE DE SALINS.
She was married in the year 1160 to GERARD DE MACON, count of Vienne, died on September 14, 1184.) >>

------------------------------
What source states that Girard was married in 1160 at all, let alone to a woman named Maurette ?

D. Spencer Hines

Re: 'Fitz' In Genealogy & History

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 sep 2007 01:18:56

The Voice of Reason Speaks Up.

All those with FITZ in their names are NOT Royal Bastards, as "Normandy"
would have it.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1832.1188950316.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Dear Normandy,

Fitz appears to mean " descendant of " like unto
the gaelic " Ua " as in Ua Domnall , Ua Niall ( modern english O` Donnell
and
O` Neal) unlike the gaelic mac " son of " or ingen / nighean " Daughter
of"

Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 05 sep 2007 01:21:31

Peter Stewart wrote:
"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:46DD6757.7BDB3F01@sbcglobal.net...


Peter Stewart wrote:

I sometimes can't make out odd words.

Why not? Can you make them out if you read the
sentence twice?

No, this is the result of a brain impairment that was acquired in the 1970s.

When I falter on a word, usually a common one, it's a waste of time trying
to resolve the seemingly meaningless jumble into a recognisable series of
letters. I just guess.

My reading and learning processes when I recovered from a period of total
illiteracy were different from before.

Ah...got it. I went through a period of aphasia after a head
injury in a car accident a number of years ago...very frus-
trating it is. One knows what one _wants_ to say, but it's
like there's a senility circuit between brain and mouth...the
thoughts bump around like a bee in a bottle but they just
don't come out properly.

Happily, it didn't have any effect on writing or reading...
different neural pathways apparently...but speaking was
a nuisance for a time. And you're right, it's invariably the
simplest words which trip one up.

Deirdre

D. Spencer Hines

Re: 'Fitz' In Genealogy & History

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 sep 2007 01:23:10

The Voice of Reason Speaks Up.

All those with FITZ in their names are NOT Royal Bastards, as "Normandy"
would have it.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1832.1188950316.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Dear Normandy,

Fitz appears to mean " descendant of " like unto
the gaelic " Ua " as in Ua Domnall , Ua Niall ( modern english O` Donnell
and O` Neal) unlike the gaelic mac " son of " or ingen / nighean "
Daughter of"

Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Reading, Writing, Comprehension & Family

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 sep 2007 01:36:42

Yes, just as I have been saying...

Peter Stewart USED to be Totally Illiterate.

NOW he is only Partially Illiterate.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:%WkDi.31340$4A1.24650@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:46DD6757.7BDB3F01@sbcglobal.net...

Peter Stewart wrote:

I sometimes can't make out odd words.

Why not? Can you make them out if you read the
sentence twice?

No, this is the result of a brain impairment that was acquired in the
1970s.

When I falter on a word, usually a common one, it's a waste of time trying
to resolve the seemingly meaningless jumble into a recognisable series of
letters. I just guess.

My reading and learning processes when I recovered from a period of total
illiteracy were different from before.

Peter Stewart

taf

Re: 'Fitz' In Genealogy & History

Legg inn av taf » 05 sep 2007 01:39:47

On Sep 4, 4:56 pm, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:

Fitz appears to mean " descendant of " like unto
the gaelic " Ua " as in Ua Domnall , Ua Niall ( modern english O` Donnell and
O` Neal) unlike the gaelic mac " son of " or ingen / nighean " Daughter of"

Fitz meant "son of", exactly like the Gaelic mac. Of course, after
adoption as a surname, this original meaning becomes pointless, but
the same is true with MacDonald, Johansson, ApJohn, and Galindez.

taf

John Higgins

Re: SALINS

Legg inn av John Higgins » 05 sep 2007 01:56:01

FWIW, there are at least two references to this marriage in ESNF (although
not with a specific date), at 2:59 for the husband's family and 3:439 for
the wife's family. I have no idea as the accuracy of Schwennicke's work on
these families, but it may be a start....

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: SALINS


In a message dated 09/04/07 16:28:09 Pacific Standard Time,
l.akershoek@hccnet.nl writes:
1 MAURETTE DE SALINS.
She was married in the year 1160 to GERARD DE MACON, count of Vienne,
died on September 14, 1184.)

------------------------------
What source states that Girard was married in 1160 at all, let alone to a
woman named Maurette ?

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

quotes in the subject and the body of the message

rainbow.

Re: #Eirene Doukaina, Byzantine Empress

Legg inn av rainbow. » 05 sep 2007 01:56:14

----- Original Message Follows -----
I understand that in Byzantium children were not named
aftertheir parents,

BUT daughter Eirene has on her necrology the name of her
mother recorded, and it appears that NN is Herina
#(Eirene).

Could the mother's name have been a monastic one? Was she
perhaps divorced by Isaac II ? There doesn't seem to be
any record of this first wife of Isaac II. Does anyone
know?

----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------ Ruggero D'Apulia of
Sicily m/d Irene Angela, dau. of Byzantine Emperor Isaac
II Angelus

They had a daughter Beatrice
----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------

Andronikos Doukas (Dukas) and Maria of Bulgaria - d/o Tsar
Trajan of the W. Bulgars (d. 1018)

Children
#Eirene Doukaina, Byzantine Empress, A.D. 1066-1133
Michael Doukaina
----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------

Byzantine Empress (Dowager) Eirene m/d Charlemagne during
the reign of Pope Leo IV

D. Spencer Hines

Re: I Remember Diana, Princess Of Wales

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 sep 2007 01:56:24

"Turenne" <richard.lichten1@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1188941316.522169.264670@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

DSH wrote:

Winston Churchill, as a grandson of the 7th Duke of Marlborough, was an
Honourable, or not?

He was a Right Honorable as an MP, right?

Nearly right: Churchill was the son of Lord Randolph Churchill who in
turn was a younger son of The Duke of Marlborough.

Yes, I understand.

Sons of younger sons of dukes aren't 'Hons'.

Got It. But his father, Lord Randolph Churchill WAS an Hon., from birth,
but not THE Hon.?

A Right Hon. is a member of the Privy Council and is also the correct
way to address barons, viscounts and earls. So yes, an MP may be a
Right Hon. but only if he is a member of the Privy Council.

Richard

O.K.

How does one officially address Marquises/Marquesses in speech?

How does one officially address baronets and knights in speech?

But Winston was reportedly a member of the Privy Council from, what, 1907 --
in the reign of Edward VII?

So, from that date he was a Right Hon.?

When an MP, A, refers to another MP, B, as "The Right Hon." that means that
B is a member of the PC?

What is an "ordinary" MP -- who is NOT a member of the PC -- called?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Gjest

Re: 'Fitz' In Genealogy & History

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 sep 2007 02:01:02

Dear Normandy ,
Fitz appears to mean " descendant of " like unto
the gaelic " Ua " as in Ua Domnall , Ua Niall ( modern english O` Donnell and
O` Neal) unlike the gaelic mac " son of " or ingen / nighean " Daughter of"
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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D. Spencer Hines

Re: Most Villainous Mediaeval Villain

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 sep 2007 02:27:29

Ivan The Terrible [Ivan Groznij] is an excellent candidate.

Groznij does NOT actually mean _Terrible_ as Alex will explain.

He killed his own son, the Tsarevich, personally -- in a fit of rage.

DSH

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fbkvh7$t4l$2@reader1.panix.com...
am05@hotmail.com wrote:
On Sep 4, 12:55 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
a...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Sep 4, 11:21 am, erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
In article <fbjb1i$1u...@registered.motzarella.org>,
"William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

Just about anyone involved on the Catholic side in the Albigensian
Crusade.

seconded heartily!
Ah, these inhabitants of the BT! You really don't know the real
McCoy... Ivan the Terrible would proudly stay on the top of this hill
as far the the murderous psychopats are involved.
In comparison, Vlad the Impaler was a talented amateur or, at best, a
small-scale hooligan.
:-)

I think we have to scale these things. Kings have much more
scope and less to check them.

Indeed. And you probably can safely tell that Vlad had considerably
less (numbers wise) ...er... 'material' to work with, comparing to
Ivan.

However, even in the long list of the pre-revolutionary Russian rulers
(which means that we are pretty much levelling the field in the terms
of geography and population) Ivan IV holds an outstanding place as far
as a pure sadism is involved. This goes for a country where one of the
supposedly most human and mild rulers (Tzar Alexey) felt that it is OK
to cut people's legs and arms for trying to convince members of their
families to stop drinking (goverment hold a wine monopoly and this was
an important source of a revenue) or doing the same to a soldier who
ocassionally discharged his musket on Kremlin's territory.

Probably Peter the Great was responsible for a greater total than Ivan
but not by execution (not that he was not a sadist but not up to the
same degree).

One of Ivan's favorite entertainments was to put person into bear's
skin and to watch him being torn apart by the dogs. Executions
involved frying people on the special pans, boiling them alive, slowly
cutting them into the pieces and so on. Description of his Novgorodian
expedition includes putting people on fire and then throwing them into
the river ('simple' killing of everybody whom his troops met on the
way to Novgorod probably can be discounted as a military measure to
achive a total surprise).

In Livonia he was entertaining himself by torchuring to death people
from the towns that surrendered on conditions, etc.

He sounds like a gem of a man. I don't think I'd want
him for a next-door neighbor...

I guess that's why he's called Ivan the Terrible rather than
Ivan the Somewhat Nasty.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

David

Re: Most Villainous Mediaeval Villain

Legg inn av David » 05 sep 2007 02:33:56

On Sep 4, 8:27 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Ivan The Terrible [Ivan Groznij] is an excellent candidate.

Groznij does NOT actually mean _Terrible_ as Alex will explain.

He killed his own son, the Tsarevich, personally -- in a fit of rage.

DSH

"Paul J Gans" <g...@panix.com> wrote in messagenews:fbkvh7$t4l$2@reader1.panix.com...

a...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Sep 4, 12:55 pm, Paul J Gans <g...@panix.com> wrote:
a...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Sep 4, 11:21 am, erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
In article <fbjb1i$1u...@registered.motzarella.org>,
"William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

Just about anyone involved on the Catholic side in the Albigensian
Crusade.

seconded heartily!
Ah, these inhabitants of the BT! You really don't know the real
McCoy... Ivan the Terrible would proudly stay on the top of this hill
as far the the murderous psychopats are involved.
In comparison, Vlad the Impaler was a talented amateur or, at best, a
small-scale hooligan.
:-)

I think we have to scale these things. Kings have much more
scope and less to check them.

Indeed. And you probably can safely tell that Vlad had considerably
less (numbers wise) ...er... 'material' to work with, comparing to
Ivan.

However, even in the long list of the pre-revolutionary Russian rulers
(which means that we are pretty much levelling the field in the terms
of geography and population) Ivan IV holds an outstanding place as far
as a pure sadism is involved. This goes for a country where one of the
supposedly most human and mild rulers (Tzar Alexey) felt that it is OK
to cut people's legs and arms for trying to convince members of their
families to stop drinking (goverment hold a wine monopoly and this was
an important source of a revenue) or doing the same to a soldier who
ocassionally discharged his musket on Kremlin's territory.

Probably Peter the Great was responsible for a greater total than Ivan
but not by execution (not that he was not a sadist but not up to the
same degree).

One of Ivan's favorite entertainments was to put person into bear's
skin and to watch him being torn apart by the dogs. Executions
involved frying people on the special pans, boiling them alive, slowly
cutting them into the pieces and so on. Description of his Novgorodian
expedition includes putting people on fire and then throwing them into
the river ('simple' killing of everybody whom his troops met on the
way to Novgorod probably can be discounted as a military measure to
achive a total surprise).

In Livonia he was entertaining himself by torchuring to death people
from the towns that surrendered on conditions, etc.

He sounds like a gem of a man. I don't think I'd want
him for a next-door neighbor...

I guess that's why he's called Ivan the Terrible rather than
Ivan the Somewhat Nasty.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Villainous, perhaps, but not medieval -- he was a contemporary of the
first Elizabeth. The Middle Ages are too broad a chronological unit
to be able to assign degrees of wickedness. Chinggis Khaghan and his
immediate successors probably caused more widespread misery than any
other rulers, over a rather short timescale.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Most Villainous Mediaeval Villain

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 sep 2007 02:40:55

Ivan Groznij was definitely Mediaeval.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Weatherlawyer

Hilarious Hines' Comprehensive Abilities

Legg inn av Weatherlawyer » 05 sep 2007 02:42:38

From: an e-mail @netspeed.com.au>

Hines is making a total pig of himself on gen-med. He has started,
when he replies, to remove the telling tales and leaves the dross,
then he replies in a grandstanding manner and crossposts to other
groups to show the big wig he is.

He has to quibble about everything
and anything, except the subject of the message directed at him.
However, interestingly, so far he has not touched this message. At
the moment I am unable to crosspost which has me at a disadvantage
with Hilarious Hines.

Unless you have something others just might want to read on other
forae, I'd resist top posting. Especially if you are just arguing with
a troll. So I hope I might be forgiven for doing it too.

He has me swearing on sci.military.naval. I don't doubt that he is a
troll but he has also chosen to behave as a shill which, left
unchecked might just possibly give credence to the Chimp or whatever
champion he will come up with next.

I have found that it relieves my frustration at him to remove all his
message, post something totally off topic (from the other side of his
koin perhaps -Michael Moore is a favourite and The Great MaGonnegal
can often supply a garish taunt) and then I change the title.

Hopefully it might also assist in cutting off any good that his
propaganda does for his evil idle. Though it's more probable that low
voter turn out due to apathy -which in turn was due to unsatisfactory
choices on the hustings, was the main factor in the Chimpification of
the States.

(That and massive voter fraud. But what would you expect with only
idiots voting?)

The protocol with netiquette is to just ignore asses of his ilk. But I
feel that with the parlous state of what passes for democracy in the
world's most dangerous superpower, doing that is not enough.

Pity that, as giving even the slightest attention to the sob is all he
craves.
What is important is that at least I get to feel better about it. And
maybe I can drop on a witty link that is apposite and make others
smile. Laughter is the best medicine.

David

Re: Most Villainous Mediaeval Villain

Legg inn av David » 05 sep 2007 02:43:23

On Sep 4, 8:40 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Ivan Groznij was definitely Mediaeval.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

In the Pulp Fiction sense, doubtless.

Gjest

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 sep 2007 02:45:04

Dear Martin,
There was not much wrong with Henry III`s intelligence
in architectual matters, He suffered in battle strategies and diplomacy,
however.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA
ps What of Richard II`s nature ? He was generally kind, deeply hung up on
his 1st wife Anne of Bohemia and of a rather placid nature, rather like Henry
VI.



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Reading, Writing, Comprehension & Family

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 05 sep 2007 02:47:28

Now Hines is trying to cover his embarrassment under a blizzard of
posts and new off-topic threads. But nothing will work, his DIY kit
from the Acme Defooling Co. is yet another dud for Wile E.

Hines misrepresents the facts by misusing the English language. "Used
to be" implies a chronic condition, whereas my period of illiteracy
following an accident was not. If it had been, this would of course
provide no further occasion for infantile mockery on his part, or for
any shame on mine. People suffer from brain injuries and impairment in
all sorts of ways, in all sorts of activities - including US military
personnel, both on honourable active service and even when, say,
bumped on the noggin by a cupboard door while sidelined on housing
duties.

Hines evidently sees his own past through a "glory hole". So now do
we...but without the distortions of his Narcissistic Personality and
Obsessive-Compulsive disorders.

Peter Stewart


On Sep 5, 10:36 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Yes, just as I have been saying...

Peter Stewart USED to be Totally Illiterate.

NOW he is only Partially Illiterate.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:%WkDi.31340$4A1.24650@news-server.bigpond.net.au...





"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:46DD6757.7BDB3F01@sbcglobal.net...
Peter Stewart wrote:

I sometimes can't make out odd words.

Why not? Can you make them out if you read the
sentence twice?

No, this is the result of a brain impairment that was acquired in the
1970s.

When I falter on a word, usually a common one, it's a waste of time trying
to resolve the seemingly meaningless jumble into a recognisable series of
letters. I just guess.

My reading and learning processes when I recovered from a period of total
illiteracy were different from before.

Peter Stewart- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Reading, Writing, Comprehension & Family

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 sep 2007 02:54:46

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:%WkDi.31340$4A1.24650@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:46DD6757.7BDB3F01@sbcglobal.net...

Peter Stewart wrote:

I sometimes can't make out odd words.

Why not? Can you make them out if you read the
sentence twice?

No, this is the result of a brain impairment that was acquired in the
1970s.

When I falter on a word, usually a common one, it's a waste of time trying
to resolve the seemingly meaningless jumble into a recognisable series of
letters. I just guess.

My reading and learning processes when I recovered from a period of total
illiteracy were different from before.

Peter Stewart
--------------------------------------------------------


Yes, just as I have been saying...

Peter Stewart USED to be TOTALLY Illiterate.

NOW he is only PARTIALLY Illiterate...

But Irredeemably Farblondjet.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Deus Vult

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Reading, Writing, Comprehension & Family

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 05 sep 2007 03:08:29

We can see that Hines is thoroughly rattled now, copying his damp
squibs with giddy capitalisations, plainly out of control by any
faculty of reason or humour.

Soon he will be pleading again for "detente", begging for "peace and
friendship", wondering why it's too late for any next step but into
therapy or total estrangement from whatever he has left, offline in
the real world, of social and family life.

Pitiful, if only he had the self-awareness to realise that he is just
as contemptible to others by his chosen attitudes and behaviour as he
is to himself by his ill-favoured character and circumstances.

Peter Stewart

On Sep 5, 11:54 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:%WkDi.31340$4A1.24650@news-server.bigpond.net.au...







"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enter...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:46DD6757.7BDB3F01@sbcglobal.net...
Peter Stewart wrote:

I sometimes can't make out odd words.

Why not? Can you make them out if you read the
sentence twice?

No, this is the result of a brain impairment that was acquired in the
1970s.

When I falter on a word, usually a common one, it's a waste of time trying
to resolve the seemingly meaningless jumble into a recognisable series of
letters. I just guess.

My reading and learning processes when I recovered from a period of total
illiteracy were different from before.

Peter Stewart

--------------------------------------------------------

Yes, just as I have been saying...

Peter Stewart USED to be TOTALLY Illiterate.

NOW he is only PARTIALLY Illiterate...

But Irredeemably Farblondjet.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Deus Vult- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gjest

Re: Most Villainous Mediaeval Villain

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 sep 2007 03:12:51

On Sep 4, 9:43 pm, David <ds...@softhome.net> wrote:
On Sep 4, 8:40 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Ivan Groznij was definitely Mediaeval.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

In the Pulp Fiction sense, doubtless.

Well, in Russia the Middle Ages (or their equivalent) had been going
on almost all the way to the Russian version of 'Early Modern' times:
they just skipped Renaissance. :-)

Gjest

Re: Most Villainous Mediaeval Villain

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 sep 2007 03:12:51

On Sep 4, 9:43 pm, David <ds...@softhome.net> wrote:
On Sep 4, 8:40 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Ivan Groznij was definitely Mediaeval.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

In the Pulp Fiction sense, doubtless.

Well, in Russia the Middle Ages (or their equivalent) had been going
on almost all the way to the Russian version of 'Early Modern' times:
they just skipped Renaissance. :-)

Gjest

Re: Most Villainous Mediaeval Villain

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 sep 2007 03:12:51

On Sep 4, 9:43 pm, David <ds...@softhome.net> wrote:
On Sep 4, 8:40 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Ivan Groznij was definitely Mediaeval.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

In the Pulp Fiction sense, doubtless.

Well, in Russia the Middle Ages (or their equivalent) had been going
on almost all the way to the Russian version of 'Early Modern' times:
they just skipped Renaissance. :-)

Gjest

Re: Most Villainous Mediaeval Villain

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 sep 2007 03:12:51

On Sep 4, 9:43 pm, David <ds...@softhome.net> wrote:
On Sep 4, 8:40 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Ivan Groznij was definitely Mediaeval.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

In the Pulp Fiction sense, doubtless.

Well, in Russia the Middle Ages (or their equivalent) had been going
on almost all the way to the Russian version of 'Early Modern' times:
they just skipped Renaissance. :-)

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Most Villainous Mediaeval Villain

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 05 sep 2007 03:21:02

Ivan 'The Dread' or Ivan 'The Dreaded' is one translation I've seen.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<am05@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188958175.553682.143020@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

As Spencer correctly noticed, "Terrible" is not a precise translation.
"Grozny" means rather "Terrifying". Personally, I like
"Terrible" (Ugasny) more because his reign _was_ terrible both in its
actions and in its consequences: by his actions (including massive
resettlements and years of terror) Ivan managed to pave the way to the
Times of Trouble.

Interestingly enough, he used the same logic in his letters to Prince
Kurbsky (his former close friend who had been smart enough to escape
to Poland) as Henry VIII used in his correspondence with one of _his_
refugees: Why did you run away? If you are not guilty of treason, you
should not be afraid of an execution because after the death you will
go to Heaven as an innocent victim. Surely, the great minds were
thinking alike. He also had 6 wives and was rather well educated so
one may draw interesting parallels. :-)

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