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Cloudberry@btinternet.com

Re: British Apologies For The Slave Trade

Legg inn av Cloudberry@btinternet.com » 01 sep 2007 07:58:40

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:r8s2d3pe1ea3s26i93pmjptfc9jjma80ci@4ax.com...
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 22:55:52 GMT, "allan connochie"
conncohies@noemail.com> wrote:


"Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:a7OdnRiNqMrbFE3bnZ2dnUVZ_oaonZ2d@rcn.net...

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:9411d3522fdqtkavtoflv9esfi2qqnurcu@4ax.com...
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 10:02:30 -0400, "Ray O'Hara"
mary.palmucci@rcn.com> wrote:


"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4MSzi.29895$rr5.7055@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...

My various Caribbean & African friends also seem to think all these
'apologies' are pathetic, meaningless and, anyway, totally
misunderstanding.
They ask, for instance, where are the apologies from the slaving
African
tribes ... the Arabs (who were at it long before Europeans), etc.,
etc.

Do-gooding twitdom personified.

Surreyman



where are the appologies from the african chiefs who sold their
"excess"
subjects into slavery.

as to the arabs. they still practice black slavery.

Are you implying that the US doesn't, in its own inimitable way?

yes.
while scotland is an enslaved country
don't get me wrong. there are plenty of fine scotsman , jackie stewart
and
craig ferguson come to mind.
dario franchitti too. but on the whole the scots at best serfs to their
english overlords.

Serfs you say! Christ I'd better write to the Prime Minister and complain.
But then again Gordon Brown is Scottish, as is a fair percentage of the
cabinet, so no point moaning to him. Ok I'll write to the opposition
leaders
instead! Maybe Menzies Campbell would help. Oh no! The leader of the Lib
Dems is Scottish too. Can't moan to him. So the only one left is the
leader
of the Tory Party but David Cameron, doesn't that sound a tad Scottish
too?
Well blow me down Dave's auld faither is frae Inverness! He always did say
that Dave, being a serf, would never get on in English
politics..........at
least no further than leader of the official opposition. Ach well Michael
Ancram only got to deputy leader of the Tories so I'd best write to their
last leader. After all the last two Labour leaders were both born in
Scotland and the one before that was a serf too - though a Welsh serf!
Then
the Lib Dems. Their last leader was also a Scot! The one before that was a
mixture but more Irish than anything else. The the one before that! Oh no
that was wee Steely, another bloody Scot.

Right then I'll go right to the top and complain to Betty Windsor. But
then
again I suppose being Scottish never did her mum any harm either.

Allan


I thought that was very amusing, especially coming from someone whose
country maintains an iron grip on its citizens and who are far more
like serfs than Brits ever were, given that they can scarcely move
without some police agency ordering them to do this and stop doing
that.

Of course, a name like O'Hara tells you instantly that you're dealing
with the descendant of Irish serfs, so I suppose he doesn't actually
understand the difference between being a genuinely free man and being
the property of an overlord, like George Bush, the US Administration
and the multitude of agencies that direct the life of the average
American citizen, right down to the most minute details.

The US is controlled by more police-type aqencies than any European
country. Any uniformed government agent seems to carry a gun and to
have police powers in the US. It is a country where the citizen has a
dozen hands gripping his collar. I suppose that's why so many choose
to live outside the US.

Like the former Soviet Union, "freedon:" is a mantra that they all
chant but which actually has very little basis in reality.

As an example; in Washington State, it's an offence not to have a bag
in your car for the disposal of garbage.

Bag? So, why do you allow your mother-in-law into your car as a passenger?


How much more can you be
controlled than that! I wouldn't be surprised if they introduced spot
checks to ensure that people are wearing American-made underwear!

Of course with the constant propaganda pouring out night and day about
how free Americans are compared to other countries, and as most
Americans have never been outside the United States, they have no idea
how uncluttered with laws, rules and regulations other countries are.

I might add that most of those agencies seem to a favour a threatening
and bullying approach when dealing with the average citizen and
concepts like the right of the citizen to proceed about his business
without let or hindrance is simply unknown, as most of the police
agencies can stop you and demand that you identify yourself and give
an explanation of what you are doing; some thing completely illegal in
Canada and the UK, unless the police agent has grounds to believe that
you have committed or about to commit a crime. Grounds which yoiu can
challenge.

Yes indeed, serfdom is alive and well in the United States. Yet O'Hara
thinks he's being provocative, completely failing to understand that
he is peering out through the bars, not in, like us!

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Cloudberry@btinternet.com

Re: British Apologies For The Slave Trade

Legg inn av Cloudberry@btinternet.com » 01 sep 2007 08:00:06

Liverpool is IN IRELAND!
"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:R0mAi.22044$mo.20850@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
Brian Sharrock wrote:
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b5Tzi.29900$rr5.13056@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...

snip

The Liver Building itself was completed within the last hundred
years .....

Acttually ninety six (completed 1911) ... but whose counting ?

but I myself have been present when someone made a speech
bemoaning the fact that it was paid for by the blood of African
slaves...

Why didn't you walk away from that lying speechifier?

The Liver Building was paid for by the members of the _mutual_
organisation called the
Royal Liver Freindly society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Live ... ly_Society

extract> Liverpool Burial Society was founded by a group of working
men from Liverpool in the "Lyver Inn" on 24 July 1850 to "provide for
the decent interment of deceased members". By 1857 the Society had
moved to its fourth head office and had expanded throughout the
United Kingdom. By the end of the 1890's a decision was taken to
build what would become the Royal Liver Building it opened on 19 July
1911. </extract
See; "group of working men" ... not a penny from 'the blood of African
Slaves'!

Those deceased members would be turning in the 'decent internments'
if they realised the calumnies spread by anomymous 'bemonaer' who
didn't know of what they spoke.

Liverpool Town Hall, it must be added, was almost certainly built
on the profits of slave trading...


' .... almost certainly built ... " equates to;- 'I have no
proof... but I'll toss in some hyperbole !"

It was built in 1754. It is difficult to say what other trade there was in
Liverpool at that date, other than slave trading and the sugar trade.
--
John Briggs


Cloudberry@btinternet.com

Re: British Apologies For The Slave Trade

Legg inn av Cloudberry@btinternet.com » 01 sep 2007 08:01:19

"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:SoidnV-X2oFCj0_bnZ2dnUVZ8q_inZ2d@bt.com...
John Briggs wrote:
Brian Sharrock wrote:
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b5Tzi.29900$rr5.13056@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
snip

The Liver Building itself was completed within the last hundred
years .....
Acttually ninety six (completed 1911) ... but whose counting ?

but I myself have been present when someone made a speech
bemoaning the fact that it was paid for by the blood of African
slaves...
Why didn't you walk away from that lying speechifier?

The Liver Building was paid for by the members of the _mutual_
organisation called the
Royal Liver Freindly society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Live ... ly_Society

extract> Liverpool Burial Society was founded by a group of working
men from Liverpool in the "Lyver Inn" on 24 July 1850 to "provide for
the decent interment of deceased members". By 1857 the Society had
moved to its fourth head office and had expanded throughout the
United Kingdom. By the end of the 1890’s a decision was taken to
build what would become the Royal Liver Building it opened on 19 July
1911. </extract
See; "group of working men" ... not a penny from 'the blood of African
Slaves'!

Those deceased members would be turning in the 'decent internments'
if they realised the calumnies spread by anomymous 'bemonaer' who
didn't know of what they spoke.

Liverpool Town Hall, it must be added, was almost certainly built
on the profits of slave trading...

' .... almost certainly built ... " equates to;- 'I have no
proof... but I'll toss in some hyperbole !"

It was built in 1754. It is difficult to say what other trade there was
in Liverpool at that date, other than slave trading and the sugar trade.

Importing tobacco and exporting manufactured goods like plates and
cooking pots.

Andrew Swallow

They sold rubber Mr.Blobbie suits to African negros in return for negro
slaves.

Cloudberry@btinternet.com

Re: British Apologies For The Slave Trade

Legg inn av Cloudberry@btinternet.com » 01 sep 2007 08:02:05

"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote in message
news:13d3hbialmdvdb0@corp.supernews.com...
"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4MSzi.29895$rr5.7055@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...

where are the apologies from the slaving African
tribes...

Quite so - we paid damn good money for what were often shoddy goods. A
great deal of the product was terminally defunct before it had even
crossed the Atlantic. It should also be born in mind that the chief
niggers often sold their own sons and daughters for profit.
No bloody money-back guarantees in those days either.
We Brits shored up the African west coast economy for centuries.
Ungrateful bastards.

Quite rightly.

Cloudberry@btinternet.com

Re: British Apologies For The Slave Trade

Legg inn av Cloudberry@btinternet.com » 01 sep 2007 08:03:54

"Peter Skelton" <skeltonp@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:cph3d3tgrnnri90n9repprhfgamk06sd9o@4ax.com...
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 04:24:38 +1000, "Adam Whyte-Settlar"
none@none> wrote:


"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4MSzi.29895$rr5.7055@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...

where are the apologies from the slaving African
tribes...

Quite so - we paid damn good money for what were often shoddy goods. A
great
deal of the product was terminally defunct before it had even crossed the
Atlantic. It should also be born in mind that the chief niggers often sold
their own sons and daughters for profit.
No bloody money-back guarantees in those days either.
We Brits shored up the African west coast economy for centuries.
Ungrateful bastards.

You have a nice line in irony, a silver tongue and the brass to
deliver it smoothly.


Peter Skelton

Of course the folks in Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria do not have to
apologise for all of the Europeans slaves who were taken from Europe to
North Africa by African slavers.

Cloudberry@btinternet.com

Re: British Apologies For The Slave Trade

Legg inn av Cloudberry@btinternet.com » 01 sep 2007 08:07:19

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:CXlAi.26459$Db6.3080@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
William Black wrote:
"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:XRRzi.37415$S91.28284@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:HFHzi.244$Jp2.1540@eagle.america.net...

On 9 December 1999 Liverpool City Council passed a formal motion
apologising for the City's part in the slave trade. It was
unanimously agreed that Liverpool acknowledges its responsibility
for its involvement in three centuries of the slave trade. The
City Council has made an unreserved apology for Liverpool's
involvement and the continual effect of slavery on Liverpool's black
communities.



And what PC rubbish it all is.


I was wondering more about the 'three centuries' stuff.

Assuming Liverpool didn't operate illegally as a matter of course
after 1807 it means they think they've been slaving since about 1500.

Isn't that a touch early for any English involvement?

First Liverpool slave ship set sail in 1699.
--
John Briggs

And when did the first commie slave ship set sail to Siberia! Why don't you
commie bastrards first apologise for commie slavery before asking us real
men (i.e. non-commie non-homos) to apologise for Liverpool, but on the other
hand Liverpool itself should be aoplogised for, it's an Irish wog town!

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Database Recommendations For Mediaeval Genealogy

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 sep 2007 08:14:13

Not Surprising...

You get what you pay for.

DSH

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1637.1188629356.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

After downloading and installing Legacy and playing with it for a little
while, I figured out that this option to turn on the display of the
Alternate
Names in the Name List is for the paid version only.

Doesn't work on the free version.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 sep 2007 08:35:54

....And who refused to accept my offer of Peace & Friendship and threw it
back in my face?...

Leo van de Pas -- who just kept on firing -- even though they were blanks --
completely non-substantive.

So...

I'm certainly not going to stop pointing out his gaffes and errors, as in:

1. Not understanding what a DESCENDANT is and stupidly refusing to admit to
his error.

2. CONFUSING Howard Dean of Vermont with Tom Kean of New Jersey.

The names don't even sound the same.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-----------------------------------

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:Iv7Ci.29237$4A1.2411@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

What a difference a day makes....

Yesterday someone (else?) called D. Spencer Hines wrote:

D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:CPLBi.104$YE3.357@eagle.america.net...

That's really overly harsh.

Why can't we all just get along?

Todd is trying to whip up hate and discontent among the posters here -- and
I don't think that's called for at all.

We need to take a more collegial, inclusive attitude and not back-bite or
kvetch.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Pax et Amicitia

Peace And Friendship

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1188513051.808779.123910@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

My complement to Todd and Don stands. As does my complement last week
regarding the lovely portraits displayed on Leo's database. Both are
sincere sentiments on my part.

In their defense, you are no "complement" to Don and Todd, or to Leo's
database, by any stretch of the imagination.

And your compliments to them were backhanders. You wouldn't know a "sincere
sentiment" served on a plate with watercress.

Peter Stewart

And who thought it wouldn't last?

Peter Stewart

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:S77Ci.145$YE3.388@eagle.america.net...

"Amongst descendants" belong spouses, as otherwise there would be no next
generation. Apparently you have not grasped that fact. I wonder what
Kuniko thinks about this attitude that spouses "do not belong to a
family". Interesting attitude. De Jure Descendants (spouses) are an
essential part of any family." -- Leo van de Pas
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Leo just keeps wriggling and throwing out red herrings. Also, my wife
has no part in this discussion. He needs to leave her out of it. I'm
not talking about Leo's boyfriends.

1. That's not what Leo originally wrote -- "...belong to a family".

2. THIS is what he wrote:

"A very kind person helped me with information about the Stuyvesant
family, I have digested this and made a file just to see what it brought
together and it is quite amazing (to me) who are to be found amongst
the descendants of this family. Kirk Douglas, Montgomery Clift,
Eleanor Roosevelt, Robert Traill Spence Lowel IV, Adam von Trott
zu Solz (involved in the conspiracy against Hitler), Princess Maria
Antonia de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal,
and many others." -- Leo van de Pas

3. ALL the others named above are allegedly DESCENDANTS of a STUYVESANT.

Kirk Douglas is NOT.

4. Leo doesn't even know what a DESCENDANT is in GENEALOGY!

Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!

A self-professed Genealogist, constantly working in the English language,
who doesn't even understand what a DESCENDANT is....

Further, Leo is flummoxed, farbissen and farblondjet -- so, he wriggles,
throws out red herring strawmen and tries to move the goal posts.

His latest gaffe is in confusing Howard Dean of Vermont with Tom Kean of
New Jersey.

Victoria, it just doesn't get any better than this.

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat
opus

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Gjest

Re: Database Recommendations for Medieval Genealogy

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 sep 2007 08:50:04

After downloading and installing Legacy and playing with it for a little
while, I figured out that this option to turn on the display of the Alternate
Names in the Name List is for the paid version only.

Doesn't work on the free version.



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 sep 2007 09:19:19

No-one said you shouldn't point out whatever you consider to be wrong, or
reply to whatever you find to be provocative.

But we did hope you might not "back-bite or kvetch" quite so stridently,
even in answer.

A "collegial, inclusive attitude" might allow that even a native English
speaker could be excused for adding spouses "amongst" someone's descendants,
without the need for a continuing descant about absolute precision in every
newsgroup post.

Leo's database is one of the best resources available online, and he is
extremely conscientious in keeping it as up-to-date and as accurate as he
can. Some "collegial, inclusive" credit is surely due to him - and just as
when this may be due to yourself, or to Douglas Richardson, it should be
extended with generosity despite the negative history if your own words mean
what they say.

Where is it set in stone that Spencer Hines can't simply defer or let go
first on any minor point whatsoever? Leo does this when he sees the justice
of it, and one unresolved disagreement where he doesn't should not set that
at nought.

Peter Stewart


"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:GD8Ci.147$YE3.452@eagle.america.net...
...And who refused to accept my offer of Peace & Friendship and threw it
back in my face?...

Leo van de Pas -- who just kept on firing -- even though they were
blanks --
completely non-substantive.

So...

I'm certainly not going to stop pointing out his gaffes and errors, as in:

1. Not understanding what a DESCENDANT is and stupidly refusing to admit
to
his error.

2. CONFUSING Howard Dean of Vermont with Tom Kean of New Jersey.

The names don't even sound the same.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-----------------------------------

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:Iv7Ci.29237$4A1.2411@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

What a difference a day makes....

Yesterday someone (else?) called D. Spencer Hines wrote:

D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:CPLBi.104$YE3.357@eagle.america.net...

That's really overly harsh.

Why can't we all just get along?

Todd is trying to whip up hate and discontent among the posters here --
and
I don't think that's called for at all.

We need to take a more collegial, inclusive attitude and not back-bite or
kvetch.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Pax et Amicitia

Peace And Friendship

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1188513051.808779.123910@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

My complement to Todd and Don stands. As does my complement last week
regarding the lovely portraits displayed on Leo's database. Both are
sincere sentiments on my part.

In their defense, you are no "complement" to Don and Todd, or to Leo's
database, by any stretch of the imagination.

And your compliments to them were backhanders. You wouldn't know a
"sincere
sentiment" served on a plate with watercress.

Peter Stewart

And who thought it wouldn't last?

Peter Stewart

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:S77Ci.145$YE3.388@eagle.america.net...

"Amongst descendants" belong spouses, as otherwise there would be no
next
generation. Apparently you have not grasped that fact. I wonder what
Kuniko thinks about this attitude that spouses "do not belong to a
family". Interesting attitude. De Jure Descendants (spouses) are an
essential part of any family." -- Leo van de Pas
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Leo just keeps wriggling and throwing out red herrings. Also, my wife
has no part in this discussion. He needs to leave her out of it. I'm
not talking about Leo's boyfriends.

1. That's not what Leo originally wrote -- "...belong to a family".

2. THIS is what he wrote:

"A very kind person helped me with information about the Stuyvesant
family, I have digested this and made a file just to see what it brought
together and it is quite amazing (to me) who are to be found amongst
the descendants of this family. Kirk Douglas, Montgomery Clift,
Eleanor Roosevelt, Robert Traill Spence Lowel IV, Adam von Trott
zu Solz (involved in the conspiracy against Hitler), Princess Maria
Antonia de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal,
and many others." -- Leo van de Pas

3. ALL the others named above are allegedly DESCENDANTS of a
STUYVESANT.

Kirk Douglas is NOT.

4. Leo doesn't even know what a DESCENDANT is in GENEALOGY!

Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!

A self-professed Genealogist, constantly working in the English
language,
who doesn't even understand what a DESCENDANT is....

Further, Leo is flummoxed, farbissen and farblondjet -- so, he wriggles,
throws out red herring strawmen and tries to move the goal posts.

His latest gaffe is in confusing Howard Dean of Vermont with Tom Kean of
New Jersey.

Victoria, it just doesn't get any better than this.

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat
opus

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum


John Briggs

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av John Briggs » 01 sep 2007 12:32:23

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
You are correct.

All 13 Mayflower Ancestors do come from Nat's wife's side.

I was being overly generous to Nat.

Or just wrong?
--
John Briggs

Ken Ozanne

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 1067

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 01 sep 2007 12:52:12

Brad,
IMHO Reunion is not only the best genealogy program for the Mac but the
best for any platform. Tim Powys-Lybbe, for example, has done some splendid
things with it.

Best,
Ken


On 1/9/07 2:37, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
<gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: Brad Verity <royaldescent@hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 08:44:25 -0700
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Database Recommendations for Medieval Genealogy

I've finally organized my 15 years' worth of hard copy files into two
filing cabinets, and I'm ready to put the information onto a computer
database. An off-list discussion with Leo van de Pas has reinforced
how important it is to do so.

A co-worker recommended I download and use Personal Ancestry File, but
unfortunately it's not compatible with my Mac laptop.

Any recommendations for a good Mac-compatible genealogy database,
especially for medieval data? One that has room for title (Earl of
Westmorland, for example) and for residence (of Halnaby, Yorkshire),
in addition to first and last name?

Thanks and Cheers, -------Brad

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 sep 2007 17:20:27

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bg9Ci.29282$4A1.10770@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

No-one said you shouldn't point out whatever you consider to be wrong, or
reply to whatever you find to be provocative.

That's precisely what I intend to do and what I have indeed already done.

But we did hope you might not "back-bite or kvetch" quite so stridently,
even in answer.

Leo decided to throw my sincere offer of Peace and Friendship, which I
offered to ALL, back in my face and give no quarter and he will meet with
heavy fire in return and no quarter given.

Mediaeval Warfare is appropriate here.

If Leo can't take the heat he should get out of the kitchen.

Let's Continue The March & Enough With The Pettifoggery.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

CE Wood

Re: Database Recommendations for Medieval Genealogy

Legg inn av CE Wood » 01 sep 2007 17:33:44

I did mention this many postings ago. But there is not another
program out there that can do half what Legacy Deluxe can, as well as
allow you to configure almost every parameter, provide incredible
customer support, and update the program several times a year. To say
nothing of costing only $30!

CE Wood


On Aug 31, 11:48 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
After downloading and installing Legacy and playing with it for a little
while, I figured out that this option to turn on the display of the Alternate
Names in the Name List is for the paid version only.

Doesn't work on the free version.

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL athttp://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Database Recommendations For Mediaeval Genealogy

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 sep 2007 17:35:58

Sounds like a WINNER.

DSH

"CE Wood" <wood_ce@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1188664424.675178.87080@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...

I did mention this many postings ago. But there is not another
program out there that can do half what Legacy Deluxe can, as well as
allow you to configure almost every parameter, provide incredible
customer support, and update the program several times a year. To say
nothing of costing only $30!

CE Wood


On Aug 31, 11:48 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
After downloading and installing Legacy and playing with it for a little
while, I figured out that this option to turn on the display of the
Alternate
Names in the Name List is for the paid version only.

Doesn't work on the free version.

Gjest

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 sep 2007 17:37:02

Thanks Peter, I've now added the text you provided in Latin alongwith your
translation of the Liber Eliensis to the Godiva page.

There is a word there, that does not come across in the font I'm using
evidently where you say "She often attended the prayer vigils for
[box]heldreth...."

The [box] is some unprintable character and I wonder if there's another
character or two that can be subsituted to make it readable.

Thanks
Will



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

D. Spencer Hines

Re: I remember Diana, Princess of Wales

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 sep 2007 18:05:05

Well-Stated & True...

By Surreyman.

DSH

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:XPaCi.33830$ph7.31496@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
"Neil Bates" <neil_delver@caloricmail.com> wrote in message
news:13dgrv0jvvulic6@corp.supernews.com...
I was so shocked and sorry to hear a decade ago that Diana, Princess of
Wales had left us. One of the major funeral homes in my mid-size US city
had set up a memorial service for her about a week later, and there was a
long line. I didn't mind waiting to sign the book, and was impressed
that
all those other Americans cared about her so much. Let's remember that
she
wasn't just a pretty royal face who knew charm, but a courageous woman
who
put herself out in the world for its people, and suffered indignities
gracefully.


And also a media-hyped pseudo-fairytale Disneyland icon, especially to
those
overseas who didn't see many of her day-to-day idiocies, whose continually
pounded 'memory' by many with other agendas has long started to sicken
many
in the UK.

Surreyman

D. Spencer Hines

"The Easter Season"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 sep 2007 18:11:47

Intelligent rebuttal.

DSH
---------------------------

"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:46D99BAA.CD9ED214@sbcglobal.net...

Brian Sharrock wrote:

Now explain 'purple drapes _during_ Easter !

Just as there is a "Christmas season", so too is there
an "Easter season". It is the period of Lent (forty
days prior to Easter Sunday) and really starts in earnest
when Passiontide begins on Passion Sunday (Palm Sunday)
which is the fifth Sunday in Lent. This is when the Sarum
Rite comes into play (in congregations which use it) and
the vestments switch to crimson, remaining so until Holy
Saturday (the one before Easter Day itself). On Easter
Sunday they switch to white and gold.

The eve of Holy Saturday is the start of "Eastertide",
beginning during the evening Easter Vigil and lasting
forty days until Ascension Day (normally a Thursday,
but in churches which don't have daily services, it's
celebrated on the following Sunday.) The "Sundays of
Easter" are those which fall in that forty day period

So, Easter has forty days of purple draperies and forty
days of no draperies...assuming that Easter is no more
than a single day indicates lack of acquaintance with the
Christian liturgical year and its practices. Just because
you only get chocolate rabbits on one day doesn't mean
the season is only one day.

Deirdre

kelly 6424

Re: I remember Diana, Princess of Wales

Legg inn av kelly 6424 » 01 sep 2007 18:15:45

Cruel.

You who read the trash printed over in the UK aka "newspapers" and then
complain about the content

get exactly what you deserve.

Idiots.

_________________________________________________________________
A place for moms to take a break!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Counting Descendants

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 sep 2007 18:36:14

"Amongst descendants" belong spouses, as otherwise there would be no next
generation. Apparently you have not grasped that fact. I wonder what Kuniko
thinks about this attitude that spouses "do not belong to a family".
Interesting attitude. De Jure Descendants (spouses) are an essential part
of any family." -- Leo van de Pas
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Leo just keeps wriggling and throwing out red herrings. Also, my WIFE has
no part in this discussion. He needs to leave her out of it. I'm not
talking about his BOYFRIENDS in this venue. But if he wants to open up that
unsavory door to a back room, so be it...

1. That's not what Leo originally wrote -- "...belong to a family".

2. THIS is what he wrote:

"A very kind person helped me with information about the Stuyvesant family,
I have digested this and made a file just to see what it brought together
and it is quite amazing (to me) who are to be found amongst the descendants
of this family. Kirk Douglas, Montgomery Clift, Eleanor Roosevelt, Robert
Traill Spence Lowel IV, Adam von Trott zu Solz (involved in the conspiracy
against Hitler), Princess Maria Antonia de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal,
and many others." -- Leo van de Pas

3. ALL the others named above are allegedly DESCENDANTS of a STUYVESANT.

Kirk Douglas is NOT.

Let's use a biological example. We have a list of sea animals here -- a
dolphin, an oyster, an octopus, a shark, a crab -- AND then we spot a
PANTHER, the first one on the list.

Kirk Douglas is the PANTHER. -- He doesn't FIT.

Kirk Douglas is NOT a Stuyvesant Descendant, whereas the FIVE others
allegedly ARE Stuyvesant Descendants.

4. Leo doesn't even know what a DESCENDANT is in GENEALOGY!

Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!

A self-professed Genealogist, constantly working in the English language,
who doesn't even understand what a DESCENDANT is....

Further, Leo is flummoxed, farbissen and farblondjet -- so, he wriggles,
throws out red herring strawmen and tries to move the goal posts.

His latest gaffe is in confusing Howard Dean of Vermont with Tom Kean of New
Jersey.

Victoria, it just doesn't get any better than this.

And he has some sort of fixation on "trhe East Coast of Europe".

What's THAT All About?

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Counting Descendants

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 sep 2007 19:07:38

I did that by design.

A PANTHER is not a SEA animal by ANY means.

And Kirk Douglas is NOT a Stuyvesant Descendant by any means, whereas the
OTHERS ARE. See Below.

'Nuff Said.

DSH

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1662.1188668737.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 9/1/2007 10:40:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

Let's use a biological example. We have a list of sea animals here -- a
dolphin, an oyster, an octopus, a shark, a crab -- AND then we spot a
PANTHER, the first one on the list.

-----------------
One of these things is not like the other.

I couldn't resist.

A crab by the way isn't like the other "sea animals" in that its also a
land
animal at times.

"Amongst descendants" belong spouses, as otherwise there would be no next
generation. Apparently you have not grasped that fact. I wonder what Kuniko
thinks about this attitude that spouses "do not belong to a family".
Interesting attitude. De Jure Descendants (spouses) are an essential part
of any family." -- Leo van de Pas
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Leo just keeps wriggling and throwing out red herrings. Also, my WIFE has
no part in this discussion. He needs to leave her out of it. I'm not
talking about his BOYFRIENDS in this venue. But if he wants to open up that
unsavory door to a back room, so be it...

1. That's not what Leo originally wrote -- "...belong to a family".

2. THIS is what he wrote:

"A very kind person helped me with information about the Stuyvesant family,
I have digested this and made a file just to see what it brought together
and it is quite amazing (to me) who are to be found amongst the descendants
of this family. Kirk Douglas, Montgomery Clift, Eleanor Roosevelt, Robert
Traill Spence Lowel IV, Adam von Trott zu Solz (involved in the conspiracy
against Hitler), Princess Maria Antonia de Braganca, Infanta of Portugal,
and many others." -- Leo van de Pas

3. ALL the others named above are allegedly DESCENDANTS of a STUYVESANT.

Kirk Douglas is NOT.

Let's use a biological example. We have a list of sea animals here -- a
dolphin, an oyster, an octopus, a shark, a crab -- AND then we spot a
PANTHER, the first one on the list.

Kirk Douglas is the PANTHER. -- He doesn't FIT.

Kirk Douglas is NOT a Stuyvesant Descendant, whereas the FIVE others
allegedly ARE Stuyvesant Descendants.

4. Leo doesn't even know what a DESCENDANT is in GENEALOGY!

Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!

A self-professed Genealogist, constantly working in the English language,
who doesn't even understand what a DESCENDANT is....

Further, Leo is flummoxed, farbissen and farblondjet -- so, he wriggles,
throws out red herring strawmen and tries to move the goal posts.

His latest gaffe is in confusing Howard Dean of Vermont with Tom Kean of New
Jersey.

Victoria, it just doesn't get any better than this.

And he has some sort of fixation on "trhe East Coast of Europe".

What's THAT All About?

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Prosecutio stultitiae est gravis vexatio, executio stultitiae coronat opus

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Brian Sharrock

Re: "The Easter Season"

Legg inn av Brian Sharrock » 01 sep 2007 19:36:51

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:C3hCi.159$YE3.452@eagle.america.net...
Intelligent rebuttal.

DSH

Once again; he deonstrates that he doesn't contibute any facts and mistakes
noise for signal.

--

Brian

Gjest

Re: Counting Descendants

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 sep 2007 19:47:03

In a message dated 9/1/2007 10:40:32 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

Let's use a biological example. We have a list of sea animals here -- a
dolphin, an oyster, an octopus, a shark, a crab -- AND then we spot a
PANTHER, the first one on the list.



-----------------
One of these things is not like the other.

I couldn't resist.

A crab by the way isn't like the other "sea animals" in that its also a land
animal at times.



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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The Highlander

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av The Highlander » 01 sep 2007 20:19:01

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:09:52 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:CPLBi.104$YE3.357@eagle.america.net...
That's really overly harsh.

Why can't we all just get along?

Todd is trying to whip up hate and discontent among the posters here --
and
I don't think that's called for at all.

We need to take a more collegial, inclusive attitude and not back-bite or
kvetch.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Pax et Amicitia

Peace And Friendship

That's fine by me - the former at least - and will remain so, hopefully,
when I can get my breath back.

It may last as long as we don't hear more about training or other alleged
superiorities of one poster over another.

And NB, "Pax et amicitia" is correct Latin.

10/10! LOL!
Peter Stewart

If you are interested in investigating Mr. Hines' classical education,

you will find the complete course here:

http://www.yuni.com/library/latin_2.html

Not the Oxford-approved course, naturally, but for someone versed in
the skills of cut and paste...

One has the impression that had Mr. Hines been at Oxford, he would
probably have read pornography.

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 01 sep 2007 20:24:27

ZAAAAAAAAPPPP!!!

Deirdre is a ROMAN?

How Delightful!

DSH
------------------------------------

"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enteract@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:46D9B7E5.F3BA4F41@sbcglobal.net...

Brian Sharrock wrote:

I suggest you ask your pastor / priest / minister (whatever) to explain a
liturgical calendar to you.

Archbishop, thank you.

He did...the Easter _season_ begins at Ash Wesnesday,
proceeds through Passiontide, Easter itself and ends
with the Ascension. Different diocese have different
rituals (Milan and a couple of the Spanish ones most
noteably) and the Anglicans vary things a bit, but you'll
find most people _don't_ believe Easter Sunday is the
whole of the holiday. Good Friday and Holy Saturday are
inarguably part of Easter and the draperies are most
assuredly in place then.

Enjoy your chocolate rabbit.

Deirdre

Deirdre Sholto Douglas

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av Deirdre Sholto Douglas » 01 sep 2007 22:28:38

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
ZAAAAAAAAPPPP!!!

Deirdre is a ROMAN?

Don't be silly, I'm completely apostate. The Archbishop
was a family friend...as was the Episcopal bishop and
the Presbyterian minister...large cheques makes for
strange ecclesiastic bedfellows. They were nice enough
sorts despite their dependence on mythology.

Deirdre

Peter Stewart

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 sep 2007 00:42:50

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1658.1188660958.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Thanks Peter, I've now added the text you provided in Latin alongwith your
translation of the Liber Eliensis to the Godiva page.

There is a word there, that does not come across in the font I'm using
evidently where you say "She often attended the prayer vigils for
[box]heldreth...."

The [box] is some unprintable character and I wonder if there's another
character or two that can be subsituted to make it readable.

Aetheldryth is possibly the conventional form in modern orthography, but
Todd can give you a better answer than I can.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 sep 2007 00:51:40

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:1kgCi.151$YE3.484@eagle.america.net...
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bg9Ci.29282$4A1.10770@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

No-one said you shouldn't point out whatever you consider to be wrong, or
reply to whatever you find to be provocative.

That's precisely what I intend to do and what I have indeed already done.

And that is what you did best in the past when you concentrated on failures
of commonsense and acuity, rather than diminishing the effect by harping
about expression, spelling or typing mistakes.

Peter Stewart

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 02 sep 2007 03:15:04

On Sep 1, 4:42 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
WJhon...@aol.com> wrote in message

There is a word there, that does not come across in the font I'm using
evidently where you say "She often attended the prayer vigils for
[box]heldreth...."

The [box] is some unprintable character and I wonder if there's another
character or two that can be subsituted to make it readable.

Aetheldryth is possibly the conventional form in modern orthography, but
Todd can give you a better answer than I can.


There is no convention, at least that I am aware, (the same author in
the same book will use Aethelweard and Athelstan, Alfred and
Aelfheah). That being said, the first element will usually be
represented as Athel-, Aethel-, or AEthel-. The second usually appears
as -thryth.

taf

CE Wood

Re: Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av CE Wood » 02 sep 2007 04:21:28

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I13470

CE Wood

On Sep 1, 8:06 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/1/2007 7:55:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

wood...@msn.com writes:
From Bill Marshall's excellent, well-resourced site:

What's the URL?
Thanks
Will

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL athttp://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 04:50:18

You look to your own emphases and mistakes and I'll look to mine.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult
---------------------------------------------------------

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:gWmCi.29480$4A1.630@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:1kgCi.151$YE3.484@eagle.america.net...

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bg9Ci.29282$4A1.10770@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

No-one said you shouldn't point out whatever you consider to be wrong,
or reply to whatever you find to be provocative.

That's precisely what I intend to do and what I have indeed already done.

And that is what you did best in the past when you concentrated on
failures of commonsense and acuity, rather than diminishing the effect by
harping about expression, spelling or typing mistakes.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Theodegotho, and the Burgundians?

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2007 05:09:03

In a message dated 9/1/2007 7:55:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
wood_ce@msn.com writes:

From Bill Marshall's excellent, well-resourced site:


What's the URL?
Thanks
Will



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Christopher Ingham

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Christopher Ingham » 02 sep 2007 05:26:44

On Sep 1, 10:15 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Sep 1, 4:42 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

WJhon...@aol.com> wrote in message

There is a word there, that does not come across in the font I'm using
evidently where you say "She often attended the prayer vigils for
[box]heldreth...."

The [box] is some unprintable character and I wonder if there's another
character or two that can be subsituted to make it readable.

Aetheldryth is possibly the conventional form in modern orthography, but
Todd can give you a better answer than I can.

There is no convention, at least that I am aware, (the same author in
the same book will use Aethelweard and Athelstan, Alfred and
Aelfheah). That being said, the first element will usually be
represented as Athel-, Aethel-, or AEthel-. The second usually appears
as -thryth.

taf

Apparently either edh (eth) or thorn is being referred to. _The
Chicago Manual of Style_, 15th ed. (2003) contains a brief section on
obsolete letters (p. 439):

"'Old English and Middle English'

"_Special characters._ Several Old English or Middle English letters
not used in modern English occur in both lowercase and capital forms:
[__,__] Called edh or eth [Resemble capital D, and 6 in reverse
image; with a short horizontal stroke bisecting the vertical members.]
[__,__] Called thorn [Resemble Ps, with serifs at the upper and
lower ends; although the round elements are somewhat lower on the
stems.]
Both edh and thorn are used to represent voiced or unvoiced_th_, as
in_them_or_three_.
[__,__] Called yogh [Resemble 3s.]; occurs in Middle English
sometimes for_y_ as in_year_, sometimes for_gh_ as in_light_.
[__,__] Ligature [Joined forms of AE and ae.]; should not be printed
as two letters in Old English names and text.

"Edh, thorn, and the ligature are available in most text-editing
software and thus require no special coding. Yogh, if unavailable,
will require coding....

"_Substitutions_. Two characters occasionally found in Old English
texts are [__] [resembles undotted lower case J, with leftward
horizontal extension at upper end] for_and_(or ampersand) and [__]
(wyn) [resembles lower case P, with lower part of round element
descending to converge with stem] for_w_; but the modern ampersand
and_w_ may be substituted for these."

Christopher Ingham

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 sep 2007 06:03:42

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:wqqCi.169$YE3.492@eagle.america.net...
You look to your own emphases and mistakes and I'll look to mine.

But you do nothing of the sort.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Here is one of your own repeated mistakes that you don't & won't look to -
and yet you insist on looking to everyone else's.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: I Remember Diana, "Princess Of Wales" [sic]

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 06:05:10

Right!

The Queen denied her the right to continue to be called Her Royal Highness.

Served Cousin Diana right -- after all the trouble and woe she caused The
Monarchy.

"The Queen took away Her Royal Highness."...

AND she was no longer THE Princess of Wales.

DSH

"theunscot" <theunscot@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1188699604.746739.197950@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...

Upon marriage, she became "HRH The Princess of Wales".
Upon divorce, she became Diana, Princess of Wales.

And yes, she was, and still is, incorrectly referred to as 'Princess
Diana'. Even in the memorial service the other day, the Bishop of
London referred to her in his sermon as 'Princess Diana'.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 06:19:19

Hilarious!

Peter is FAR too thick to understand WHY I write:

_Lux et Veritas et Libertas_...

With VERY GOOD REASON on the Internet.

He needs to put on his Thinking Cap and THINK.

Many others have twigged to my rationale long, long ago -- but not Peter,
who is rather a laggard and sluggard in such matters.

But, I fear Peter feels another Grand Hissy Fit coming on...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Deus Vult

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:OurCi.29589$4A1.24009@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:wqqCi.169$YE3.492@eagle.america.net...

You look to your own emphases and mistakes and I'll look to mine.

But you do nothing of the sort.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Here is one of your own repeated mistakes that you don't & won't look to -
and yet you insist on looking to everyone else's.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 sep 2007 06:34:25

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:YJrCi.175$YE3.203@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!

Peter is FAR too thick to understand WHY I write:

_Lux et Veritas et Libertas_...

With VERY GOOD REASON on the Internet.

He needs to put on his Thinking Cap and THINK.

Many others have twigged to my rationale long, long ago -- but not Peter,
who is rather a laggard and sluggard in such matters.

But, I fear Peter feels another Grand Hissy Fit coming on...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

It doesn't make a jot of difference what reason you may think you have to
write incorrect and inelegant Latin, it is still incorrect and inelegant.
The conjunction "et" should not be repeated in this way, and that's all
there is to it.

The language had its rules and proprieties established for millennia before
there was an Internet. These are not changed, and demonstrating that you
don't understnad them is no smarter now than it ever was.

Nor is trying to provoke someone you with whom you have been pretending to
want "detente".

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 06:46:31

As I was saying previously...

Peter is FAR too thick to understand WHY I write:

_Lux et Veritas et Libertas_...

For VERY GOOD REASONS on the Internet.

He needs to put on his Thinking Cap and THINK.

Many others have twigged to my wise rationale long, long ago -- but not
Peter, who is rather a laggard and sluggard in such matters.

But, I feared Peter felt another Grand Hissy Fit coming on...

And I Was Right.

So, I'll leave Peter to put on his Thinking Cap and chew on this one for a
while.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Deus Vult

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:BXrCi.29600$4A1.14945@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

<baldersnip>

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 06:53:07

Hmmmmmm...

Hilarious!

Well, I can spell UNDERSTAND in English, which changes all the time, for the
better and for the worse.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:BXrCi.29600$4A1.14945@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

The language had its rules and proprieties established for millennia
before there was an Internet. These are not changed, and demonstrating
that you don't understnad [sic] them is no smarter now than it ever was.

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 sep 2007 07:05:18

This would have to be the weakest attempt to avade coreecting himself or
answreing for it that even Hines has tried to perpetrate on readers.

He is of course unable and unwilling to explain himself, because there can
be no case for such a crude error as his, regardless of the medium in which
it is made or the readers for whom it is intended.

Repeating "et" in Latin is wrong, and far more so than an ambiguous use of
"amongst" in English.

There are no "GOOD REASONS" for displaying ignorance, anywhere at any time.

Nor are there any honest reasons for trying a pre-emptive misrepresentation
of someone who has pointed out your error. This is not a "hissy fit" but a
patient attempt to see if you can reform after all, or are just a lost mind
& character on the way to a lonely, ranting intellectual subsistence.

Peter Stewart



"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:WbsCi.179$YE3.464@eagle.america.net...
As I was saying previously...

Peter is FAR too thick to understand WHY I write:

_Lux et Veritas et Libertas_...

For VERY GOOD REASONS on the Internet.

He needs to put on his Thinking Cap and THINK.

Many others have twigged to my wise rationale long, long ago -- but not
Peter, who is rather a laggard and sluggard in such matters.

But, I feared Peter felt another Grand Hissy Fit coming on...

And I Was Right.

So, I'll leave Peter to put on his Thinking Cap and chew on this one for a
while.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Deus Vult

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:BXrCi.29600$4A1.14945@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

baldersnip

Weatherlawyer

Re: I Remember Diana, "Princess Of Wales" [sic]

Legg inn av Weatherlawyer » 02 sep 2007 08:02:31

On Sep 2, 5:05 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Right!

fillern off you retard.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 08:17:52

As I've pointed out several times now...

Peter is FAR too thick to understand WHY I write:

_Lux et Veritas et Libertas_...

For VERY GOOD REASONS on the Internet.

He needs to put on his Thinking Cap and THINK.

Many others have twigged to my wise rationale long, long ago -- but not
Peter, who is rather a laggard and sluggard in such matters.

But, I feared Peter felt another Grand Hissy Fit coming on...

And I Was Right...

Indeed Peter's Grand Hissy Fit continues apace...

As Sound And Fury, Signifying Nothing.

So, I'll leave Peter to put on his Thinking Cap and chew on this one for a
while.

Even my broad hints have not gotten through that thick skull of his.

Remarkable!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Deus Vult

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:yosCi.29611$4A1.9940@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

<baldersnip>

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 sep 2007 08:48:19

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:QztCi.182$YE3.510@eagle.america.net...
As I've pointed out several times now...

Peter is FAR too thick to understand WHY I write:

_Lux et Veritas et Libertas_...

For VERY GOOD REASONS on the Internet.

He needs to put on his Thinking Cap and THINK.

Many others have twigged to my wise rationale long, long ago -- but not
Peter, who is rather a laggard and sluggard in such matters.

But, I feared Peter felt another Grand Hissy Fit coming on...

And I Was Right...

Indeed Peter's Grand Hissy Fit continues apace...

As Sound And Fury, Signifying Nothing.

So, I'll leave Peter to put on his Thinking Cap and chew on this one for a
while.

Even my broad hints have not gotten through that thick skull of his.

Remarkable!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Not a hope of convincing anyone with this tripe, Hines - least of all
yourself.

Your downhilll slide into new deceit and old arrogance was even quicker than
I expected.

If you had any legitimate reason (and, of course, there can't be one in the
first place) for making such a blunder, we would have heard about it long
before now. Dumbing down for the Internet is no kind of rationale for
writing bad Latin: people who don't know the language, like yourself, won't
recognise the meaning any better for larding nouns with a redundant and
wrong conjunction.

A list qualities you are falsely trying to associate with yourself would be
risible enough on its own, without getting the elementary Latin wrong in the
process. The most backward child in prep school would be expected to do
better.

You carefully avoided addressing this point for weeks, and now the best you
can do is the vain pretense that you are withholding some arcane rationale
for flat error, presumably blaming your medium and/or readers for your own
patent ignorance.

It won't wash.

Now that you are back wallowing in your sty of smelly mud and ordure,
flicking it off your tongue at the world, we can see that your plea for
peace was not genuine but just desperate begging for a reprieve to think up
more idiocies.

How tiresome.

Peter Stewart

Richard Casady

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Richard Casady » 02 sep 2007 12:02:42

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 07:48:19 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

How tiresome.

Peter Stewart

I used to ignore him, but lately I have paid him the attention of
deleting his stuff unread.

Casady

kelly 6424

Re: I Remember Diana, "Princess Of Wales" [sic]

Legg inn av kelly 6424 » 02 sep 2007 15:33:08

That Bishop, a Charles toadie was an affront to Diana's memory.

_________________________________________________________________
Share your special parenting moments!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 16:43:38

Hilarious!

Peter strikes out, as I knew he would -- and continues his wimpy-wussy
meanderings in Terminal Hissy Fit Mode.

How Sweet It Is!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Vincent Brannigan, Irish-American With Split Loyalties,

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 16:47:18

We can have no "50-50" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an
American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
--- Theodore Roosevelt

Bingo!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

D. Spencer Hines

Re: I remember Diana, Princess of Wales

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 16:51:24

Perceptive...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Louis Epstein" <le@main.put.com> wrote in message
news:2c2dnRW9B6T7K0fbnZ2dnUVZ_qjinZ2d@velocitywest.net...
Her infidelities started before his...and her "Princess" status was
entirely a consequence of his making the mistake of marrying her.
She certainly didn't understand what being a Princess entailed (and
one is not supposed to treat it as EVER capable of being "redefined"
closer to the pop celebrity status she understood better).

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 02 sep 2007 17:00:50

On Sep 1, 9:26 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Sep 1, 10:15 pm, taf <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:

"_Substitutions_. Two characters occasionally found in Old English
texts are [__] [resembles undotted lower case J, with leftward
horizontal extension at upper end] for_and_(or ampersand) and [__]
(wyn) [resembles lower case P, with lower part of round element
descending to converge with stem] for_w_; but the modern ampersand
and_w_ may be substituted for these."

I have also seen '7' used for the first.

taf

the_verminator@comcast.ne

Re: I Remember Diana, "Princess Of Wales" [sic]

Legg inn av the_verminator@comcast.ne » 02 sep 2007 17:50:22

On Sep 2, 9:33 am, "kelly 6424" <kelly6...@hotmail.com> wrote:
That Bishop, a Charles toadie was an affront to Diana's memory.


Diana was an affront to humanity!

She was the perfect poster child for the "ME!" generation.

taf

Re: I Remember Diana, "Princess Of Wales" [sic]

Legg inn av taf » 02 sep 2007 18:12:34

On Sep 2, 9:50 am, "the_vermina...@comcast.net"
<the_vermina...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sep 2, 9:33 am, "kelly 6424" <kelly6...@hotmail.com> wrote:

That Bishop, a Charles toadie was an affront to Diana's memory.

Diana was an affront to humanity!

She was the perfect poster child for the "ME!" generation.

Whatever she, the Bishop or Charles are/were, none of them lived in
medieval times. Let's not do this here. (We can't stop Hines from
trying to disrupt this group. We can stop him from succeeding.)

taf

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 02 sep 2007 18:20:14

The person referred to in the Godgifu 'Liber Eliensis' record may be St.
Æthelthryth of Ely (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Etheldreda), from
whose worship apparently derives the word 'tawdry'. The following Domesday
record also suggests that Godgifu of Ely may have survived to the time of
King Edward, since she would seem a match to this Rendlesham, Suffolk
property owned by Hervey de Bourges TRW.

Godgifu, a free woman commended half to St Æthelthryth [of Ely] and half to
Eadric of Laxfield , held Rendlesham with 60 acres as a manor. Then 2
ploughs, now 1; 2 acres of meadow. 1 villan. Then as now worth 20s. 1 free
man and half a [free man] under the same commendation [held] 10 acres and
half a plough in the same valuation. Bernard d'Alençon holds this from
Hervey [de Bourges]. William [Malet] was seised thereof on the day on which
he
died. It is 1 league long and a half broad. In geld 14d. (from Little
Domesday, Folio 443v).
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... Id=7611047

An alternate translation of this same record, from 'Domesday Book and the
Law', Robin Flemming; 1998; Cambridge, page 444 reads : "Hervey de Bourges,
Rendlesham. TRE Godgifu, a free woman half commended to Ely and half to
Eadric of Laxfield, held sixty acres of land in Rendlesham. Now Bernard
d'Alencon holds it from Hervey de Bourges. William Malet was seized [of it]
on the day he died."

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


Thanks Peter, I've now added the text you provided in Latin alongwith your
translation of the Liber Eliensis to the Godiva page.

There is a word there, that does not come across in the font I'm using
evidently where you say "She often attended the prayer vigils for
[box]heldreth...."

The [box] is some unprintable character and I wonder if there's another
character or two that can be subsituted to make it readable.

Thanks
Will



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Gjest

Re: Vincent Brannigan, Irish-American With Split Loyalties,

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2007 18:48:09

On Sep 2, 8:47 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
We can have no "50-50" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an
American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
--- Theodore Roosevelt

Bingo!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"American": blind but devout followers of the false messiah, Amerigo
Vespucci, whose main dogma involves the delusion that they can
*become* natives of a place merely by living there. In other words,
there is no such thing as an "American".

Jack Linthicum

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 02 sep 2007 18:55:27

On Sep 2, 11:43 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Hilarious!

Peter strikes out, as I knew he would -- and continues his wimpy-wussy
meanderings in Terminal Hissy Fit Mode.

How Sweet It Is!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

I have no Latin but isn't it "illegitimatus Non Carborundum"?

and since you seem to be the only person on the Internet, and I use
the word "person" with suspicion, to use the phrase "Calcitravi
Asinum" I suspect that is incorrect too.

Any Latinists among the vestments crowd?

Gjest

Re: I Remember Diana, "Princess Of Wales" [sic]

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2007 19:15:07

Dear Listers,
Neither Prince Charles nor his first wife Diana Frances
Spencer, Princess of Wales` conduct in their marriage is beyond reproach. Both
were unfaithful and both were I have no doubt seriously dedicated to helping
out the human race in general. Diana`s public conduct seldom went beyond the
bounds of royal duty. So, She was younger and prettier than Charles and more at
ease in public.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Leticia Cluff

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 02 sep 2007 19:23:19

Jack Linthicum <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> scripsit:

On Sep 2, 11:43 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Hilarious!

Peter strikes out, as I knew he would -- and continues his wimpy-wussy
meanderings in Terminal Hissy Fit Mode.

How Sweet It Is!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

I have no Latin but isn't it "illegitimatus Non Carborundum"?

and since you seem to be the only person on the Internet, and I use
the word "person" with suspicion, to use the phrase "Calcitravi
Asinum" I suspect that is incorrect too.

Any Latinists among the vestments crowd?


Neither "illegitimati" and "illegitimatus" are possible Latin words.
There is no -at- in the real Latin adjective "illegitimus."

In any case, the whole phrase, in its numerous variants, is merely
mock Latin:
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum

"Calcitravi asinum" is also mock Latin, as indeed is all of DSH's
Latin. It's an attempt to render the sentence "I kicked ass" using a
verb meaning "to kick with the heels" and the name of the humble
animal.

Some people find this kind of schoolboy humor HILARIOUS.

Tish

John Briggs

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av John Briggs » 02 sep 2007 19:36:35

Leticia Cluff wrote:
Jack Linthicum <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> scripsit:

On Sep 2, 11:43 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Hilarious!

Peter strikes out, as I knew he would -- and continues his
wimpy-wussy meanderings in Terminal Hissy Fit Mode.

How Sweet It Is!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

I have no Latin but isn't it "illegitimatus Non Carborundum"?

and since you seem to be the only person on the Internet, and I use
the word "person" with suspicion, to use the phrase "Calcitravi
Asinum" I suspect that is incorrect too.

Any Latinists among the vestments crowd?


Neither "illegitimati" and "illegitimatus" are possible Latin words.
There is no -at- in the real Latin adjective "illegitimus."

In any case, the whole phrase, in its numerous variants, is merely
mock Latin:
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum

"Calcitravi asinum" is also mock Latin, as indeed is all of DSH's
Latin. It's an attempt to render the sentence "I kicked ass" using a
verb meaning "to kick with the heels" and the name of the humble
animal.

Some people find this kind of schoolboy humor HILARIOUS.

It also illustrates that Americans don't know their arse from a donkey...
--
John Briggs

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 19:50:34

_Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc_ is one of William Addams
Reitwiesner's favorites -- for obvious reasons.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 19:58:48

_Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc_ is one of William Addams
Reitwiesner's favorites -- for obvious reasons.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Jack Linthicum

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 02 sep 2007 20:14:20

On Sep 2, 2:58 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
_Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc_ is one of William Addams
Reitwiesner's favorites -- for obvious reasons.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Repetition is not the sign of a stable mind.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati from the same Internet page of "Cool
Latin quotes" you got the Addams family one from

Michael Kuettner

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Michael Kuettner » 02 sep 2007 21:34:14

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> schrieb
<snip>
I have no Latin but isn't it "illegitimatus Non Carborundum"?

and since you seem to be the only person on the Internet, and I use
the word "person" with suspicion, to use the phrase "Calcitravi
Asinum" I suspect that is incorrect too.

Any Latinists among the vestments crowd?

Well, calcitrare means "to kick with the hind-legs", like horses do.

Since Hines is an ass, it seems to be correct when _he_ uses it...

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

Gjest

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 sep 2007 21:45:37

On 2 Sep., 20:39, jonathan kirton <jonathankir...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Dear Group,
On this subject; a small mystery is, I think, finally solved !
My sincere thanks to all
who helped, especially my cousin, Blair Southerden in the UK; Vicki
Perry at Hatfield
House Hertfordshire, UK, and also especially, Dr. Mark Nicholls,
Librarian, St. John's
College, Cambridge, UK, who has himself written extensively on the
Winchester
trials of 1603.

In my email of 14 June, 2007 I had explained what I had read in Ruth
Norrington's "In
the Shadow of the Throne - The Lady Arbella Stuart" (2002) in which
(pages 56-57)
she had stated: "there was a rumour that Hertford [Edward Seymour,
earl of Hertford]
had sent his lawyer, Kirton - whose son had married Bess's [Bess of
Hardwick] step-
daughter (a daughter of Sir William Cavendish by a previous marriage)
- to Wales to
see Owen Tydder (evidently sic. Tudor), whose son was Arbella's
page,...." I wished
to determine which lawyer named "Kirton" this might be. It clearly
could not possibly
be either of the two James Kirtons (or Kyrton), neither of whom had
any son born prior
to 1608. And any daughter of William Cavendish by his first wife
had to have been
born before 1540, when his first wife died; so the generations did
not match up at all,
and something was clearly wrong.

Rosie Bevan sent a pedigree from "Bess of Hardwick - First Lady of
Chatsworth"
which showed a daughter of William Cavendish & his first wife, named
as Katherine
Cavendish, born 1535, died after 1547. [but mentioned no marriage]

This information was confirmed on the IGI: Katherine Cavendish (AFN:
9G59-JR),
born 1535, "of Chatsworth, Derbyshire", died about 1552. [&
again no marriage]

I then obtained a copy of "Arbella - England's Lost Queen" by Sarah
Gristwood,
(Bantam Edition, 2004). On page 159 she also mentioned: ".........in
an inquiry held
later, in 1603. At that time David Owen Tudor - a satellite of
Arbella's family, who
subsequently sent his young son to be her page - admitted that he
had, three or four
years past (i.e. circa 1599), been approached by the earl of
Hertford's solicitor
'to move a marriage between Lord Beauchamp's eldest son [the earl's
grandson]
and the Lady Arbella, ......." On page 277 she also wrote: "And
again, from another
confession Cobham made [Henry Brooke, 6th. Baron Cobham, 8th. Lord
Cobham]
on 13 August (1603): "Being asked what was the cause that moved
him to have
[conference] with Arbella, answereth, that Frances Kirton [noted by
(Mark) Nicholls
as being Cobham's kinswoman, in service with Arbella]........." In
the author's notes
for this page 277 (shown on page 515) she comments: " 'Frances
Kirton'; It was an
Edward Kirton (or Kyrton) who in 1610 assissted Arbella's escape -
and Kyrton or
Kirton was the name of the lawyer, employed by the earl of
Hertford, who was
instrumental in the 1590s (sic. circa 1599) proposal for a marriage
between Arbella
and one of the Seymour family. Arbella (Hatfield xii 584) states
that he was also
married to a step-daughter of Bess's." [Bess of Hardwick]

Hatfield House very quickly supplied me with scans of pages 583 - 587
from Vol.
XII from the Calendar of the Salisbury (Cecil) Manuscripts, from
which it quickly
became clear that this was the source of both authors' information,
taken from the
"Confession of John Daudridge", given at Winchester on 2 Jan., 1602-3
(1603).
[John Daudridge was a servant of Bess of Hardwick, Arbella's
grandmother]
"About three weeks afore Christmas, [probably in the above mentioned
year of
1599], as I guess, my Lady Arbella asked me, if I would go a little
way for her, and
I answered, I would do the best I could; so she rested for that time.
[i.e. she did not
then say anything else.] Not long after, she told me I must go a
hundred miles for
her; I made answer that I durst not, for fear of my Lady's [Bess's]
displeasure and
endangering the loss of my service. [losing his job] She said to
me that if I did, I
should not need to care, for I should find friends, whereupon I
granted that I would
go. Then she told me that I must go to a place called Amsbury, in
Wiltshire, (sic.
Amesbury, Wilts., where Lord Hertford owned the Priory, and where
Kirton was
evidently staying) and deliver a message to one Mr. Kirton, my Lord
of Heretforde's
solicitor of his causes; the effect of the message, AS FAR AS I CAN
REMEMBER,
is as followeth: Mr. Kirton. You are my Lord of
Hertford's ancient and faithful
servant and reputed to be a discreet and honest man, your son married
a child of
Sir William Cavendish's....................."
John Daudridge was a servant, testifying at a major treason trial,
about events
which had occurred some four years earlier; he was probably more than
a little
nervous, and maybe forgetful, because what I believe he meant to say
was:-
"your son married a GRANDCHILD of Sir William Cavendish's ."

I then, with Blair's help made contact with Dr. Nicholls, who kindly
recommended to
me a biography: "A Memory of Honour: the Life of William Brooke,
Lord Cobham"
by the late David McKeen (whose PhD thesis it was, here at Concordia
University
in Montreal); it was subsequently brought to publication by his
friends, and was in
1986 published by the Institut fur Anglistik und Amerikanistik,
Universitat Salzburg,
as one of as series:- Salzburg studies in English
Literature. Elizabethan and
Renaissance studies. Fortunately for me, Blair was able to find a
copy in London.

George Brooke, 4th. Baron Cobham, (b. c.1497 - 1558), married
Anne Braye of
Eatons, co. Beds., with whom he had ten sons and four daughters.

The eldest son, William Brooke became 5th. Baron Cobham (1527-1597),
[subject
of the above book] and the youngest son, Thomas Brooke (IGI AFN:848F-
L8) born:
30 Dec., 1533 at Cobham, Kent, married Catherine or Katherine
Cavendish, dau.
of Sir William Cavendish and his first wife Margaret Bostock.
Catherine born 1535,
died after 1557. Both the brothers, who were first cousins of Sir
Thomas Wyatt, who
was married to one of their sisters, became involved in Wyatt's
rebellion. William
was pardoned, and was successful in obtaining a pardon for his
brother Thomas,
who, in 1554, had actually been sentenced to be executed. The
couple; Thomas
and Catherine had three children, a son who died in childhood; an
eldest daughter,
Frances Brooke, who married a man named Mills, and had five sons, &
a younger
daughter, Dudley Brooke, born: c. 1557, died: c. 1581, who became the
first wife of
Daniel Kirton, only son of Edward Kirton of Almesford, co. Somerset
and London.
(ref.: Visitation of London, 1568) Daniel was born in London, c.
1555, and died in
1594. Thomas Brooke himself seems to have been a wild man; he is
several times
called "a pirate". He died in Flanders in 1578, aged only 45.

After his first wife, Dudley, died circa 1581, Daniel remarried to a
Frances (her
surname is still not known) and had two children, a son, Edward
(junior) [of the
Court of Chivalry case] and a daughter, Frances. After Daniel died
in 1594, his
wife, Mrs. Frances Kirton went as a widow to serve Lady Arbella .
Subsequently,
in about 1606 she remarried to Sir Robert Vernon, then living at
Mitcham, Surrey.

William Brooke, 5th. Baron Cobham, (1527-1597) had three sons, Henry,
William
and George.

Henry Brooke, 6th. Baron Cobham, 8th. Lord Cobham, KG, Warden of the
Cinque
Ports, born 1564, mentioned above as a kinsman of Frances Kirton,
[although it
does not seem to be a very close kinship ?] was implicated with his
youngest brother,
George Brooke, in the Bye Plot, George being executed at Winchester,
5 Dec., 1603.
Henry Brooke, Lord Cobham was accused of treason for his part in the
Main Plot, and
was executed at the Tower of London on 24 Jan., 1618-19.

My conclusion is that Edward Seymour, Lord of Hertford's solicitor
and lawyer in
circa 1599 was indeed Edward Kirton, senior, of Almesford, Somerset,
and London,
and that in 1599 he was indeed fairly ancient; he died two years
later in 1601.
We had not previously known that he was a solicitor, but several
members of his
immediate family were, so it is not at all unlikely.
I would be most interested in any comments, particularly as to the
accuracy of any
or all of the above.

Jonathan

Excellent work - many thanks for sharing this with the group.

Best wishes, Michael

D. Spencer Hines

Re: SHM Stats For August

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 sep 2007 21:59:47

Nothing too serious, i.e., life-threatening, as a reason for your going to
the hospital, we hope, Julian.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

"Julian Richards" <julian@spam-me-not.co.uk> wrote in message
news:p77md35cove2e9pd2ahgoe4ltrapu6g35u@4ax.com...

Stats are a little late due to a brief trip to hospital.

Not a lot on
the on topics front again. My 4 messages puts me in 80th position in
the rankings and that is with me on six weeks "holiday".

Header-statistics for: Subject: (Re:/was: skipped)
(based on msgs with bodies between 8/1/2007 and 8/31/2007)

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67 2.03% Ray O'Hara
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44 1.34% a.spencer3
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33 1.00% allan connochie
32 0.97% Robert Peffers.
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29 0.88% Peter Alaca
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26 0.79% Cory Bhreckan
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22 0.67% Jack Linthicum
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21 0.64% Richard Casady
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17 0.52% TMOliver
17 0.52% dapra
16 0.49% Tiglath
14 0.42% Soren Larsen
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14 0.42% John Brandon
13 0.39% redc1c4
13 0.39% Michael Kuettner
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12 0.36% mountain man
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10 0.30% flexford@ntlworld.com
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10 0.30% Mike Smith
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9 0.27% Jack Granade
8 0.24% Frances Kemmish
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8 0.24% Al Klein
7 0.21% JerryT
7 0.21% Tedd Jacobs
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6 0.18% Baldoni
6 0.18% Christopher A.Lee
6 0.18% The Amaurotean Capitalist
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5 0.15% James Beck
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5 0.15% mjcar@btinternet.com
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69 2.09% (others)

--

Julian Richards

http://www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk
Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV"

Leo van de Pas

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 02 sep 2007 23:03:26

Dear Jonathan,

Many thanks for this very interesting message. It solves almost a question I
have had for a long time.

I thought Sir William Cavendish and his first wife Margartet Bostock had
three daughters (I am not sure), till now I had oinly
Anne born circa 1538 who married before 1566 Henry Baynton. This couple has
amongst their descendants at least three Gateways
Anne Baytnon 1602-1679, and her daughters Anne Batt 1630- , and Jane Batt
1631-1674, these three all have royal ancestors.

Add to this the daughter Katherine you found, do you have any idea whether
there was a third daughter?

Another question, does anyone have a full list of children for George
Brooke, Lord Cobham, ca.1497-1558 and his wife Hon.Anne Braye -1558,
they are recorded as having ten sons and four daughters.

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "jonathan kirton" <jonathankirton@sympatico.ca>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)


Dear Group,
On this subject; a small mystery is, I think, finally solved !
My sincere thanks to all
who helped, especially my cousin, Blair Southerden in the UK; Vicki
Perry at Hatfield
House Hertfordshire, UK, and also especially, Dr. Mark Nicholls,
Librarian, St. John's
College, Cambridge, UK, who has himself written extensively on the
Winchester
trials of 1603.

In my email of 14 June, 2007 I had explained what I had read in Ruth
Norrington's "In
the Shadow of the Throne - The Lady Arbella Stuart" (2002) in which
(pages 56-57)
she had stated: "there was a rumour that Hertford [Edward Seymour,
earl of Hertford]
had sent his lawyer, Kirton - whose son had married Bess's [Bess of
Hardwick] step-
daughter (a daughter of Sir William Cavendish by a previous marriage)
- to Wales to
see Owen Tydder (evidently sic. Tudor), whose son was Arbella's
page,...." I wished
to determine which lawyer named "Kirton" this might be. It clearly
could not possibly
be either of the two James Kirtons (or Kyrton), neither of whom had
any son born prior
to 1608. And any daughter of William Cavendish by his first wife
had to have been
born before 1540, when his first wife died; so the generations did
not match up at all,
and something was clearly wrong.

Rosie Bevan sent a pedigree from "Bess of Hardwick - First Lady of
Chatsworth"
which showed a daughter of William Cavendish & his first wife, named
as Katherine
Cavendish, born 1535, died after 1547. [but mentioned no marriage]

This information was confirmed on the IGI: Katherine Cavendish (AFN:
9G59-JR),
born 1535, "of Chatsworth, Derbyshire", died about 1552. [&
again no marriage]

I then obtained a copy of "Arbella - England's Lost Queen" by Sarah
Gristwood,
(Bantam Edition, 2004). On page 159 she also mentioned: ".........in
an inquiry held
later, in 1603. At that time David Owen Tudor - a satellite of
Arbella's family, who
subsequently sent his young son to be her page - admitted that he
had, three or four
years past (i.e. circa 1599), been approached by the earl of
Hertford's solicitor
'to move a marriage between Lord Beauchamp's eldest son [the earl's
grandson]
and the Lady Arbella, ......." On page 277 she also wrote: "And
again, from another
confession Cobham made [Henry Brooke, 6th. Baron Cobham, 8th. Lord
Cobham]
on 13 August (1603): "Being asked what was the cause that moved
him to have
[conference] with Arbella, answereth, that Frances Kirton [noted by
(Mark) Nicholls
as being Cobham's kinswoman, in service with Arbella]........." In
the author's notes
for this page 277 (shown on page 515) she comments: " 'Frances
Kirton'; It was an
Edward Kirton (or Kyrton) who in 1610 assissted Arbella's escape -
and Kyrton or
Kirton was the name of the lawyer, employed by the earl of
Hertford, who was
instrumental in the 1590s (sic. circa 1599) proposal for a marriage
between Arbella
and one of the Seymour family. Arbella (Hatfield xii 584) states
that he was also
married to a step-daughter of Bess's." [Bess of Hardwick]

Hatfield House very quickly supplied me with scans of pages 583 - 587
from Vol.
XII from the Calendar of the Salisbury (Cecil) Manuscripts, from
which it quickly
became clear that this was the source of both authors' information,
taken from the
"Confession of John Daudridge", given at Winchester on 2 Jan., 1602-3
(1603).
[John Daudridge was a servant of Bess of Hardwick, Arbella's
grandmother]
"About three weeks afore Christmas, [probably in the above mentioned
year of
1599], as I guess, my Lady Arbella asked me, if I would go a little
way for her, and
I answered, I would do the best I could; so she rested for that time.
[i.e. she did not
then say anything else.] Not long after, she told me I must go a
hundred miles for
her; I made answer that I durst not, for fear of my Lady's [Bess's]
displeasure and
endangering the loss of my service. [losing his job] She said to
me that if I did, I
should not need to care, for I should find friends, whereupon I
granted that I would
go. Then she told me that I must go to a place called Amsbury, in
Wiltshire, (sic.
Amesbury, Wilts., where Lord Hertford owned the Priory, and where
Kirton was
evidently staying) and deliver a message to one Mr. Kirton, my Lord
of Heretforde's
solicitor of his causes; the effect of the message, AS FAR AS I CAN
REMEMBER,
is as followeth: Mr. Kirton. You are my Lord of
Hertford's ancient and faithful
servant and reputed to be a discreet and honest man, your son married
a child of
Sir William Cavendish's....................."
John Daudridge was a servant, testifying at a major treason trial,
about events
which had occurred some four years earlier; he was probably more than
a little
nervous, and maybe forgetful, because what I believe he meant to say
was:-
"your son married a GRANDCHILD of Sir William Cavendish's ."

I then, with Blair's help made contact with Dr. Nicholls, who kindly
recommended to
me a biography: "A Memory of Honour: the Life of William Brooke,
Lord Cobham"
by the late David McKeen (whose PhD thesis it was, here at Concordia
University
in Montreal); it was subsequently brought to publication by his
friends, and was in
1986 published by the Institut fur Anglistik und Amerikanistik,
Universitat Salzburg,
as one of as series:- Salzburg studies in English
Literature. Elizabethan and
Renaissance studies. Fortunately for me, Blair was able to find a
copy in London.

George Brooke, 4th. Baron Cobham, (b. c.1497 - 1558), married
Anne Braye of
Eatons, co. Beds., with whom he had ten sons and four daughters.

The eldest son, William Brooke became 5th. Baron Cobham (1527-1597),
[subject
of the above book] and the youngest son, Thomas Brooke (IGI AFN:848F-
L8) born:
30 Dec., 1533 at Cobham, Kent, married Catherine or Katherine
Cavendish, dau.
of Sir William Cavendish and his first wife Margaret Bostock.
Catherine born 1535,
died after 1557. Both the brothers, who were first cousins of Sir
Thomas Wyatt, who
was married to one of their sisters, became involved in Wyatt's
rebellion. William
was pardoned, and was successful in obtaining a pardon for his
brother Thomas,
who, in 1554, had actually been sentenced to be executed. The
couple; Thomas
and Catherine had three children, a son who died in childhood; an
eldest daughter,
Frances Brooke, who married a man named Mills, and had five sons, &
a younger
daughter, Dudley Brooke, born: c. 1557, died: c. 1581, who became the
first wife of
Daniel Kirton, only son of Edward Kirton of Almesford, co. Somerset
and London.
(ref.: Visitation of London, 1568) Daniel was born in London, c.
1555, and died in
1594. Thomas Brooke himself seems to have been a wild man; he is
several times
called "a pirate". He died in Flanders in 1578, aged only 45.

After his first wife, Dudley, died circa 1581, Daniel remarried to a
Frances (her
surname is still not known) and had two children, a son, Edward
(junior) [of the
Court of Chivalry case] and a daughter, Frances. After Daniel died
in 1594, his
wife, Mrs. Frances Kirton went as a widow to serve Lady Arbella .
Subsequently,
in about 1606 she remarried to Sir Robert Vernon, then living at
Mitcham, Surrey.

William Brooke, 5th. Baron Cobham, (1527-1597) had three sons, Henry,
William
and George.

Henry Brooke, 6th. Baron Cobham, 8th. Lord Cobham, KG, Warden of the
Cinque
Ports, born 1564, mentioned above as a kinsman of Frances Kirton,
[although it
does not seem to be a very close kinship ?] was implicated with his
youngest brother,
George Brooke, in the Bye Plot, George being executed at Winchester,
5 Dec., 1603.
Henry Brooke, Lord Cobham was accused of treason for his part in the
Main Plot, and
was executed at the Tower of London on 24 Jan., 1618-19.

My conclusion is that Edward Seymour, Lord of Hertford's solicitor
and lawyer in
circa 1599 was indeed Edward Kirton, senior, of Almesford, Somerset,
and London,
and that in 1599 he was indeed fairly ancient; he died two years
later in 1601.
We had not previously known that he was a solicitor, but several
members of his
immediate family were, so it is not at all unlikely.
I would be most interested in any comments, particularly as to the
accuracy of any
or all of the above. Sincerely, Jonathan
Kirton, Canada




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Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 02 sep 2007 23:50:26

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ToDCi.47960$1G1.46802@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
Leticia Cluff wrote:
Jack Linthicum <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> scripsit:

On Sep 2, 11:43 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Hilarious!

Peter strikes out, as I knew he would -- and continues his
wimpy-wussy meanderings in Terminal Hissy Fit Mode.

How Sweet It Is!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

I have no Latin but isn't it "illegitimatus Non Carborundum"?

and since you seem to be the only person on the Internet, and I use
the word "person" with suspicion, to use the phrase "Calcitravi
Asinum" I suspect that is incorrect too.

Any Latinists among the vestments crowd?


Neither "illegitimati" and "illegitimatus" are possible Latin words.
There is no -at- in the real Latin adjective "illegitimus."

In any case, the whole phrase, in its numerous variants, is merely
mock Latin:
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum

"Calcitravi asinum" is also mock Latin, as indeed is all of DSH's
Latin. It's an attempt to render the sentence "I kicked ass" using a
verb meaning "to kick with the heels" and the name of the humble
animal.

Some people find this kind of schoolboy humor HILARIOUS.

It also illustrates that Americans don't know their arse from a donkey...

Quite right, John - but in this case it also illustrates that Hines doesn't
know the first thing about Latin, or about grammar more generally.

"Calcitro" is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the right object
(and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi" instead.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: SHM Stats For August

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 01:02:47

Your Great Loss...

Fascinating Social History Passes You By Daily.

DSH

"erilar" <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:drache-B8837E.18375002092007@news.airstreamcomm.net...

I see an incredible number of totally unfamiliar names among the posters.
Must be because I seldom open non-medieval threads . . .

--
Mary, biblioholic

bib-li-o-hol-ism : the habitual longing to purchase, read, store, admire,
and consume books in excess.

http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo

Leo van de Pas

Re: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 03 sep 2007 01:05:18

Dear Will,

At last I got around to this one. Constantia Ernle has now 1.910 ancestors
in my system. To some of the details you gave I have been able to add
through the Complete Baronetage (Volumes I and II) For interesting ancestors
you have to go back a few hundred years, but she has many.
Many thanks for this.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:47 PM
Subject: Giving Constantia Ernle a Royal Ascent


On Leo's excellent database here
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php ... 2&tree=LEO

we see the pedigree for that Constantia Ernle who married Thomas Hay, 9th
Earl of Kinnoull in 1741

She died 29 Jun 1753 per Leo.

We see her pedigree is short, only giving her parents. I shall now
rectify that, giving her a line that stretches back thinly at least 30
generations.

Her mother Constantia Rolt was the only daughter of Sir Thomas Rolt, Knt
of Sacomb, Hertfordshire. This Constantia married, as Leo has it as well,
John Kyrle Ernle.

His dates are given by Money-Kryle family muniments editor as 1682-1725

John Kyrle Ernle was the son of Sir John Ernle, Knt who d 1686, by his
wife Vincentia Kyrle the eldest daughter of Sir John Kyrle, Knt of Much
Marcle by his wife Rebecca Vincent.

And thus we explain her name "Vincentia" which is rather odd. Vincentia
is given dates by the family editor of 1651-1683
See
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxs ... esheet=xsl\A2A_com.xsl&keyword=Kyrle&properties=0601

There is a settlement in which she is explicitly called "Eldest daughter"
of Sir John Kyrle of Much Marcle, for her marriage in 1674 to "John Ernle
junior of Burytown in Highworth, Wilts."

The exact marriage date can be found here (For marriage see
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch M137231) in the
extracted marriages from Much Marcle as 6 Dec 1674

This John Ernle, her husband is that one who d 1686 obviously v.p. as his
father John Ernle of Whetham d 1697 having been born "abt 1618" as it's
said.

Returning to Vincentia Kyrle (1651-83), she was the daughter of that Sir
John Kyrle who succeeded his grandfather, has probate 1683, and Rebecca
Vincent on 16 Dec 1647 at Much Marcle. His marriage is in the parish
register extract and the settlement is specified in the family papers
(ibid at A2A).

Unfortunately his wife's family is not specified, but I'd wish to know is
she may be related to the Vincent of Stoke d'Abernon or Bernake.

Continuing with Sir John (probate 1683) his parents were Francis Kyrle by
his wife Hester Tracy. This connection may be seen here
http://books.google.com/books?id=VikAAA ... #PPA296,M1
Burke's Extinct and dormant baronetcies, "Kyrle"

At this point, the point where Francis Kyrle d.v.p. in 1649, son of Sir
John Kyrle, Bart (cr 1627) d 1650 by his wife Sybil Scudamore heiress of
her father Philip Esq we must leave the Kyrle to their curling and go
after the Tracies.

Hester Tracy being that one who was the daughter of Paul Tracy, 1st Bart
of Stanway, Sheriff of Gloucs. d 4 Mar 1625/6 as stirnet
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... htm#btstan

by his wife Anne Shakerley dau of Ralph Shakerley of Aynho

Following stirnet we find that Paul Tracy was the son of Richard Tracy of
Stanway, Sheriff of Gloucs by his wife Barbara Lucy. Looking up the
Lucy's we find Barbara's grandfather was that Sir Richard Empson, Speaker
of the House of Commons and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster who was
beheaded 17 Aug 1510 at Tower Hill, London for this see
http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/view ... gskw=&cr=1

Barbara's other grandfather was Edmund Lucy of Charlecote d 1495 per Leo

Returning to the royal line, Richard Tracy of Stanway was the son of
William Tracy of Toddingham by his wife Margaret Throckmorton.

This line ascends as well to the Pauncefote about whom we've recently
spoken, to wit that Sir John Pauncefote "only son" who in 4H4 had to
defend his title to Crickhowel and whose daughter Margaret married William
Tracy, Sheriff of Gloucs living in 1449.

On the other side, Richard Tracy of Stanway had as maternal grandparents
Sir Thomas Throckmorton, Knt of Coughton, Warwick d 13 Jul 1472 who has an
Altar Tomb at John the Baptist, Fladbury, Worcs. and his wife Margaret
Olney

Thomas Throckmorton ascends in 16 steps to Italy, through the Durvassal,
Camville families to Aubrey "the Chamberlain", 1st Earl of Oxford and then
continuing up to Berneger, King of Italy.

Will Johnson

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Hal Bradley

Re: Alexander St. John

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 03 sep 2007 02:20:06

Leslie,

The marriage record indicates that the Leventhorpe marriage was her first marriage. There is an error in the Hertford Visitation. Jane Dallison's first husband was Thomas, not John Leventhorpe. Thomas died in 1527.

VCH Hertford 3:340 provides the succession for Shinghall and the father of Edward Leventhorpe (d. 1551), oldest son of Jane, was Thomas Leventhorpe. The VCH text is available here:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... d=43625#s7

Hope that is of some help.

Hal Bradley

From: lmahler@att.net
Date: 2007/09/02 Sun PM 03:45:09 CDT
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Alexander St. John


Alexander St. John, father of Henry St. John of Keysoe, co. Bedford is
briefly treated in Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry.
see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=wHZcIR ... 3exlQC4OCE

(Alexander's son Henry was grandfather of Elizabeth wife of Samuel
Whiting of Lynn, Mass. They were ancestral to
Pres. Calvin Coolidge, actress Bette Davis & Sen. John Kerry)

No will, IPM or burial is noted for Alexander.
The heralds visitations of Bedfordshire state that his wife was Jane
widow of Thomas Leventhorpe of Sawbridgeworth co. Hertford.

As an example of how confused the sources can be for this period:
A summary of monumental brasses states that Thomas Leventhorpe was
married to the -widow- of Alexander St. John:
http://books.google.com/books?id=SjAEAA ... leventhorp

The marriages are given in the same order in Weiss' Ancestral Roots,
based on Mill Stephenson's book on monumental brasses:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XLqEWw ... c#PPA85,M1

The heralds visitations of Hertfordshire state that Jane was married
to "John" Leventhorpe & Alexander St. John,
without saying which marriage happened first.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DSoEAA ... eventhorpe

And then we have the London marriage license for
"Alexander Seynt John, of Lacton, & Johanna alias Jane Leventhorpe, of
Sawbridgeworth" dated 18 Nov. 1530.

http://books.google.com/books?id=xTIEAA ... eventhorpe

One would hope there are surviving records which will straighten this
out!

Leslie


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D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 02:43:33

Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRAVI-I_...

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

Yep, that's the ticket!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:S6HCi.29989$4A1.9078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Calcitro" [sic] is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the right
object (and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi"
instead.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 sep 2007 04:23:01

It is clear from his mistaken "[sic]" below that Hines doesn't even
recognise the form "calcitro", the entry he needs to look for in a verb list
or dictionary (infinitive = "calcitrare") - "calcitravi" is the perfect
tense, but verbs are identified in the present tense.

He thinks that he can get out of a hole by excavating himself into it more
deeply with the industrial earth-mover of his ignorance.

Latin is a language, not a code. It doesn't have exact equivalents to
English that can be translated word-for-word, like a signal in Morse. Even
in English it would be clumsy to write "Light and Truth and Liberty", but in
Latin the repeated use of "et" is not only clumsy, it is wrong.

Now Hines wishes us to know that he is as ignorant of scansion as he is of
elementary expression.

In Latin verse, meter is not determined by stressed and unstressed
syllables, as in English, but by vowel length and openness or closure by
consonants. The open-ended "calcitravi" followed by an initial vowel in
"asinum" simply doesn't scan as Hines imagines it must.

This isn't something that can be made up by an ignoramus as he goes along,
trying desperately to pretend to knowledge without a clue of realities.

"Calcitro" is an _intransitive_ verb, so cannot be used with a direct object
whether this is "asinum" (an ass, i.e. a donkey) or more correctly "clunis"
(as arse, i.e. buttocks).

The way to say "I kicked arse/ass" in Latin verse (satisfying his absurd
criteria, when writing prose in the first place) might be "calce clunis
percussi", or if wishing to confess animal abuse - with metric elision
between the first two words - "calce asinum percussi".

Peter Stewart


"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:NGJCi.205$YE3.563@eagle.america.net...
Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRAVI-I_...

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

Yep, that's the ticket!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:S6HCi.29989$4A1.9078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Calcitro" [sic] is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the
right
object (and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi"
instead.

Peter Stewart


Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 sep 2007 04:48:58

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:p6LCi.30081$4A1.8939@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
It is clear from his mistaken "[sic]" below that Hines doesn't even
recognise the form "calcitro", the entry he needs to look for in a verb
list or dictionary (infinitive = "calcitrare") - "calcitravi" is the
perfect tense, but verbs are identified in the present tense.

Hines might have worked out his error just from knowing English a bit
better - his absurd "calcitravi asinum" can be simply translated into the
derived & similar words to show what is wrong with it: "I was recalcitrant
the ass". No prizes for guessing who is the donkey.

Peter Stewart

Margaret Bauer

Re: Pennystone query

Legg inn av Margaret Bauer » 03 sep 2007 05:51:31

Hi everyone

I have hunted about, but cannot locate an answer to my problem so thought I
would drop it into a query incase anyone out there might know the parents of
LETTICE (Catherine) PENNYSTONE, who was the mother of Sir Francis Knollys
(who married Catherine Carey), Joan Knollys (who married Sir Charles
Wingfield), and Elizabeth Knollys (who was married to Richard Fortescue of
Spridleton) Please.

Thankyou
Margaret

*************************
Margaret Bauer
Qld, Australia.
bauerm@tpg.com.au
*************************

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 06:50:51

Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum._

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:S6HCi.29989$4A1.9078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Calcitro" [sic] is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the right
object (and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi"
instead.

Peter Stewart

Leo van de Pas

Re: Pennystone query

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 03 sep 2007 06:58:52

Dear Margaret,

According to Gerald Paget, in his book on the ancestors of Prince Charles,
the parents of Lettice _Penystone_ were Sir Thomas and Alice Bulstrode.


I think an ancestor list works better :-), let me know if this kind of
display isa foreign to you.

1.Lettice Penystone

2.Sir Thomas Penystone
3.Alice Bulstrode

4.Sir Richard Penystone, of Howridge
5.Margaret Herris
6.Richard Bulstrode, of Hedgerley, died 19 May 1502
7.Alice Kniffe

12.William Bulstrode, of Upton, died 1478
13.Agnes Norreys
14.Richard Kniffe, of Chalvey

Hope this helps?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia




----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret Bauer" <bauerm@tpg.com.au>
To: "Medieval Newsgroup" <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Pennystone query


Hi everyone

I have hunted about, but cannot locate an answer to my problem so thought
I
would drop it into a query incase anyone out there might know the parents
of
LETTICE (Catherine) PENNYSTONE, who was the mother of Sir Francis Knollys
(who married Catherine Carey), Joan Knollys (who married Sir Charles
Wingfield), and Elizabeth Knollys (who was married to Richard Fortescue of
Spridleton) Please.

Thankyou
Margaret

*************************
Margaret Bauer
Qld, Australia.
bauerm@tpg.com.au
*************************


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John Matthews

Re: Pennystone query

Legg inn av John Matthews » 03 sep 2007 07:05:36

On 3 Sep, 06:58, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Dear Margaret,

According to Gerald Paget, in his book on the ancestors of Prince Charles,
the parents of Lettice _Penystone_ were Sir Thomas and Alice Bulstrode.

I think an ancestor list works better :-), let me know if this kind of
display isa foreign to you.

1.Lettice Penystone

2.Sir Thomas Penystone
3.Alice Bulstrode

4.Sir Richard Penystone, of Howridge
5.Margaret Herris
6.Richard Bulstrode, of Hedgerley, died 19 May 1502
7.Alice Kniffe

12.William Bulstrode, of Upton, died 1478
13.Agnes Norreys
14.Richard Kniffe, of Chalvey

Hope this helps?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret Bauer" <bau...@tpg.com.au
To: "Medieval Newsgroup" <GEN-MEDIE...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Pennystone query

Hi everyone

I have hunted about, but cannot locate an answer to my problem so thought
I
would drop it into a query incase anyone out there might know the parents
of
LETTICE (Catherine) PENNYSTONE, who was the mother of Sir Francis Knollys
(who married Catherine Carey), Joan Knollys (who married Sir Charles
Wingfield), and Elizabeth Knollys (who was married to Richard Fortescue of
Spridleton) Please.

Thankyou
Margaret

*************************
Margaret Bauer
Qld, Australia.
bau...@tpg.com.au
*************************

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Is there any (known) connection between this Penistone line and the
Thomas Penistone who married Mary daughter of John Sommer and Martina
Ridge?

Regards,

John Matthews

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 sep 2007 07:52:43

On Sep 3, 3:50 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

Blatant rubbish, Hines - the "spot my deliberate error" lie won't save
you from exposure and humiliation.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

In the nonsene phrase "calcitravi asinum" (meaning, if anything at
all, "I recalcitrated the donkey") only three syllables of
"calcitravi" would be pronounced, as I explained already - in reading
verse this would be spoken "calcitrau' asinum".

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

No dice - an intransitive verb can't take an object in the first
place, so that pretending you are aware of this crude grammatical
error is far from an excuse for repeating it. Hines spends most of his
time online emphasising a bogus superiority in just such matters, but
when examined this turns out to be total hooey.

Latin verbs are conventionally identified by the first person
singular, present tense. Most dictionaries will include them under
this form and define them from this, not from infinitives.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

"Mock Latin" my foot - the desperate lie of an ignoramus caught out.
If that weasel formulation meant anything at all, it would of course
be equally open to everyone criticised by Hines to maintain they were
writing Mock English or using Mock Spelling. There cannot be a unique
standard for him, made retrospective now that he is exposed, no matter
how stupid, clueless and embarrassed he is feeling at present.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin --
and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins.

Hines can only mean himself - or this is yet another "non sequitur"
that he can't define correctly.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum._

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

I have explained the facts, not pedantry or preening in the manner of
Hines himself but necessary correction for an utter hypocrite who
unwittingly parades his ignorance for years and then tries the above
obsessive-compulsive ritual statements to mask his pain on being shown
up, when nothing else will.

And the more he tries to wriggle and deceive, the worse it gets for
him. Definitive stupidity, to keep trying this when all his experience
shows it can only make him look even sillier and more desperate to the
people whose opinion he must care about in order to try.

The only remedy for Hines is to crawl away from SGM once more, and
keep out. Otherwise he remains fair game, not only here but through
all his other crossposted groups, and the record against him will be
enriched each and every time he pipes up in this forum.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 08:06:53

Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins....

As well as HUMOR.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum._

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Why, he's so ignorant he doesn't even realize there is more than ONE WAY to
pronounce Latin.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:S6HCi.29989$4A1.9078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Calcitro" [sic] is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the right
object (and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi"
instead.

Peter Stewart

Julian Richards

Re: SHM Stats For August

Legg inn av Julian Richards » 03 sep 2007 08:11:27

On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 06:59:47 +1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<panther@excelsior.com> wrote:

Nothing too serious, i.e., life-threatening, as a reason for your going to
the hospital, we hope, Julian.

I grazed the side of a big toe. An insignificant little scratch but my
skin decided to go into overdrive and reproduce until it produced a
lump. That then required lopping off under a local anesthetic.
--

Julian Richards

http://www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk
Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV"

THIS MESSAGE WAS POSTED FROM SOC.HISTORY.MEDIEVAL

D. Spencer Hines

Re: SHM Stats For August

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 08:15:31

Thank you.

I'm happy it wasn't anything more serious.

DSH

"Julian Richards" <julian@spam-me-not.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8ocnd3tg59hbd1u53i1dgd66qmihk68dak@4ax.com...

On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 06:59:47 +1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
panther@excelsior.com> wrote:

Nothing too serious, i.e., life-threatening, as a reason for your going to
the hospital, we hope, Julian.

I grazed the side of a big toe. An insignificant little scratch but my
skin decided to go into overdrive and reproduce until it produced a
lump. That then required lopping off under a local anesthetic.
--

Julian Richards

http://www.richardsuk.f9.co.uk
Website of "Robot Wars" middleweight "Broadsword IV"

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 08:17:44

Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins....

As well as HUMOR.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum_

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Why, he's so ignorant he doesn't even realize there is more than ONE WAY to
pronounce Latin.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:S6HCi.29989$4A1.9078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Calcitro" [sic] is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the right
object (and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi"
instead.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 08:17:44

Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins....

As well as HUMOR.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum_

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Why, he's so ignorant he doesn't even realize there is more than ONE WAY to
pronounce Latin.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:S6HCi.29989$4A1.9078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Calcitro" [sic] is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the right
object (and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi"
instead.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 08:17:44

Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins....

As well as HUMOR.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum_

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Why, he's so ignorant he doesn't even realize there is more than ONE WAY to
pronounce Latin.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:S6HCi.29989$4A1.9078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Calcitro" [sic] is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the right
object (and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi"
instead.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 08:17:44

Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins....

As well as HUMOR.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum_

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Why, he's so ignorant he doesn't even realize there is more than ONE WAY to
pronounce Latin.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:S6HCi.29989$4A1.9078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Calcitro" [sic] is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the right
object (and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi"
instead.

Peter Stewart

Normandy

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Normandy » 03 sep 2007 08:45:18

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
diNCi.208$YE3.106@eagle.america.net...
Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and
that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum._

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas


What was your college? I was on Temple Street

Normandy



Habetis bona deum

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 sep 2007 08:50:34

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:YrOCi.210$YE3.486@eagle.america.net...

<snip of reposted blather>

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins....

As well as HUMOR.

The statements of Hines only get sillier as they get more emphatic. No-one
could find the sort of callow rot he is pretending to - that is, actual
"Mock Latin" - humorous who knew the first thing about the real language. It
is the kind of wet, pre-adolescent gibbering of the dull schoolboy who goes
around asking everyone "Comment allez vous?" then retorting "Je ne care pas"
after his first lesson in French.

Hines and original humour are, of course, total strangers.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 sep 2007 09:00:19

And again he copies his own drivel, hoping that eventually it will go
unanswered, with the faintest hope of catching some unwary idiot reader in
the trap of believing it to be unanswerable.

The true humiliation of Hines can be gauged by watching what he _doesn't_
copy or respond to, including blatant typos that he will let pass when the
immediate context is too embarrassing for himself.

For instance, yesterday I posted: "This would have to be the weakest attempt
to avade [sic] coreecting [sic] himself or answreing [sic] for it that even
Hines has tried to perpetrate on readers" - and Hines has not copied back or
remarked on any of these mistakes. Yet this is the first business of life to
the Hawaiian puff-adder whenever he can spit with what he hopes is impunity.

Peter Stewart


"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:diNCi.208$YE3.106@eagle.america.net...
Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and
that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin -- and the
employment of familiar classical tie-ins.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum._

Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:S6HCi.29989$4A1.9078@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Calcitro" [sic] is an intransitive verb, so that even if he got the
right
object (and word order) in this foolish slogan he should use "percussi"
instead.

Peter Stewart


D. Spencer Hines

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 09:39:40

Hilarious!

Peter strikes out, just as I knew he would and even predicted previously --
then continues his whining, wimpy-wussy, fussbudget meanderings in Terminal
Hissy Fit Mode -- punctuated with high-pitched shrieks.

Peter The Pedant loves to play The Prissy Queen in high dudgeon with
sweeping grandiosity.

It's the one thing he does Really Well.

How Sweet It Is!

Victoria, it just doesn't get any better than this.

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 sep 2007 10:14:35

More proof of Hines' embarrassment and compulsive misrepresentation - he
posts this babble without any context, nothing copied to show what he is
pretending to describe.

The trouble for Hines is that he wants to satirise others but has no
ability, for telling words or original thought, to bring this off. So we get
the same-old lines, the same-old phrases, the same-old orthographic freaks.
Nothing new, nothing funny, nothing incisive.

And nothing to exculpate himself from his lies or to disguise his ignorance.

Anyone can criticise Hines more accurately, and characterise him more
recognisably, than he can ever manage in return, no matter how long and hard
he tries.

Yet he goes on trying, like a cartoon patsy, making things only worse for
himself - on the record for good - every time. Definitively thick.

Peter Stewart


"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:IOPCi.213$YE3.559@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!

Peter strikes out, just as I knew he would and even predicted
previously -- then continues his whining, wimpy-wussy, fussbudget
meanderings in Terminal Hissy Fit Mode -- punctuated with high-pitched
shrieks.

Peter The Pedant loves to play The Prissy Queen in high dudgeon with
sweeping grandiosity.

It's the one thing he does Really Well.

How Sweet It Is!

Victoria, it just doesn't get any better than this.

Enjoy!

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Jack Linthicum

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 03 sep 2007 11:15:30

On Sep 3, 2:52 am, Peter Stewart <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
On Sep 3, 3:50 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Nope...

I'm well aware of that view.

Blatant rubbish, Hines - the "spot my deliberate error" lie won't save
you from exposure and humiliation.

I wanted four syllables, not three...

_per-cuss-i_ just doesn't cut it.

Rhythm and metre are very important too.

_CAL-CI-TRA-VI_...

In the nonsene phrase "calcitravi asinum" (meaning, if anything at
all, "I recalcitrated the donkey") only three syllables of
"calcitravi" would be pronounced, as I explained already - in reading
verse this would be spoken "calcitrau' asinum".

I'm also well aware that verbs are identified by their infinitives and that
_CALCITRARE_ is intransitive.

No dice - an intransitive verb can't take an object in the first
place, so that pretending you are aware of this crude grammatical
error is far from an excuse for repeating it. Hines spends most of his
time online emphasising a bogus superiority in just such matters, but
when examined this turns out to be total hooey.

Latin verbs are conventionally identified by the first person
singular, present tense. Most dictionaries will include them under
this form and define them from this, not from infinitives.

In Mock Latin we get to make up our own rules and euphony is VERY
important in the mix.

"Mock Latin" my foot - the desperate lie of an ignoramus caught out.
If that weasel formulation meant anything at all, it would of course
be equally open to everyone criticised by Hines to maintain they were
writing Mock English or using Mock Spelling. There cannot be a unique
standard for him, made retrospective now that he is exposed, no matter
how stupid, clueless and embarrassed he is feeling at present.

So are clues and cribs for folks who have no education in Latin --
and the

employment of familiar classical tie-ins.

Hines can only mean himself - or this is yet another "non sequitur"
that he can't define correctly.

_Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum._





Yep, that's the ticket!

And:

_Illegitimatis Non Carborundum_

Peter The Pedant strikes out again and comes a cropper.

Deeeeeelightful!

Enjoy!

Deus Vult

Sholem Aleichem

Allahu Akbar

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.

I have explained the facts, not pedantry or preening in the manner of
Hines himself but necessary correction for an utter hypocrite who
unwittingly parades his ignorance for years and then tries the above
obsessive-compulsive ritual statements to mask his pain on being shown
up, when nothing else will.

And the more he tries to wriggle and deceive, the worse it gets for
him. Definitive stupidity, to keep trying this when all his experience
shows it can only make him look even sillier and more desperate to the
people whose opinion he must care about in order to try.

The only remedy for Hines is to crawl away from SGM once more, and
keep out. Otherwise he remains fair game, not only here but through
all his other crossposted groups, and the record against him will be
enriched each and every time he pipes up in this forum.

Peter Stewart

There are other groups he should take a vacation from, too.

alt.history.british, sci.military.naval, soc.history.medieval,
us.military.army

Peter Stewart

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 sep 2007 11:28:00

"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1188814530.902779.299690@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 3, 2:52 am, Peter Stewart <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

<snip>

The only remedy for Hines is to crawl away from SGM once more, and
keep out. Otherwise he remains fair game, not only here but through
all his other crossposted groups, and the record against him will be
enriched each and every time he pipes up in this forum.

Peter Stewart

There are other groups he should take a vacation from, too.

alt.history.british, sci.military.naval, soc.history.medieval,
us.military.army

Yes, Jack, I don't doubt this - he can't find anyone to support him, much
less anyone who admires him, across the whole of Usenet that he befouls as
verbal halitosis.

But soc.genealogy.medieval is the only group I wish to take part in, and the
only place I will encounter Hines.

Peter Stewart

Jack Linthicum

Re: Sensible Crossposting To Genealogical, Cultural, Militar

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 03 sep 2007 11:49:32

On Sep 3, 6:28 am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:1188814530.902779.299690@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

On Sep 3, 2:52 am, Peter Stewart <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

snip

The only remedy for Hines is to crawl away from SGM once more, and
keep out. Otherwise he remains fair game, not only here but through
all his other crossposted groups, and the record against him will be
enriched each and every time he pipes up in this forum.

Peter Stewart

There are other groups he should take a vacation from, too.

alt.history.british, sci.military.naval, soc.history.medieval,
us.military.army

Yes, Jack, I don't doubt this - he can't find anyone to support him, much
less anyone who admires him, across the whole of Usenet that he befouls as
verbal halitosis.

But soc.genealogy.medieval is the only group I wish to take part in, and the
only place I will encounter Hines.

Peter Stewart

Understood

jonathan kirton

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 03 sep 2007 12:55:38

Dear Michael and Leo,

Thanks for your kind comments.

Leo, I think you are right that Thomas Brooke (b.1533), husband of
Catherine Cavendish,
was not the youngest sibling. I had gone from Tudor Place, which
showed the order of the
sons who survived to adulthood as: William, George, Henry, John &
Thomas.

But Stirnet 'Brooke02' also shows Sir Henry's birth as 5 Feb., 1537-8
(1538)

[You can check the IGI also, which is quite comprehensive.]

Re. William Cavendish's children with his first wife Margaret Bostock
(d. 1540)

Rosie's list showed them as:-
Elizabeth, b. 1534; Katherine, b. 1535; John; Mary; Ann, b. 1540

However, the IGI shows them as follows:-
John, b.c. 1526; Elizabeth, b. 1528; Mary, b.c. 1532; Ann, b.c. 1534
& Katherine, born 1535.

I guess you have to take your pick; the only one they agree on is
Katherine / Catherine,
which ties in well with her husband's given birth date of 1533.

Regards, Jonathan

Gjest

Re: Identity of Dionisia m(1) Sothill m(2) Markenfield

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 sep 2007 18:25:06

Terry,

I've not seen any evidence that the William FitzWillima who was hung at
Pontefract was married, let alone had issue. The Complete Peerage does give his
father as the Sir William who married Isabel Deincourt, but his mother would
seem to be by a previous wife. There is quite a lot of information at the
Public Records Office A2A site, Sheffield Archives_ Wentworth Woodhouse
Muniments ref as WWM/D/. My notes reads as follows (from CP unles otherwise shown):

KETELBORN; Of Anglian or Scandinavian descent; On 1 Dec 1135 seised of land
at Hopton near Emley
]
GODRIC (?c1112-)
]
WILLIAM FITZWILLIAM (?c1140-<1194); m ?c1169 Aubrey d&h of ROBERT de LISOURS
(s of FAULK de LISOURES; Domesday tenant of Sprotborough and other West
Riding manors under ROGER de BUSLI; ROBERT de LISOURS m c1129 Aubrey d of ROBERT
de LACY (ld of Pontefract and in her issue heir of the great Lacy estates
from ROBERT de LACY II (-1193/4))

(NB This was Aubrey's m3, She m1 c1150 ROBERT FITZEUSTACE » JOHN (-1190)
Constable of Chester » ROBERT, constable and 2nd house of LACY; m2 c1167 WILLIAM
de CLAIRFAIT)

]
WILLIAM FITZWILLIAM (?c1173-l Feb 1218/9) alleged Marshal of battle of
Hastings!!!; In 1194 ROGER constable of Chester released to him and his mother all
the land which had been held by ROBERT de LISOURS to WILLIAM and his mother
]
THOMAS FITZWILLIAM; Sir; In 1253 gr of free warren, market and fair at
Emley, Yorks [A2A WWM/D/3 1253 granted Abbey & Convent of Roche, all lands etc of
Mar held by grant from Jordan s of Philip of Mar] [A2A WWM/D/9 Thomas d<1279
as Wm FWm was then Ld of Sprotborough]
│
WILLIAM (-<1295); Sir
[A2A WWM/D4 implies he has d sister Albreda m c1255 RICHARD WALENS]
]
WILLIAM (-<1342); Sir; In 1294 executor of his f's will; [email q Vis of
Nth: lord of Emley and Sprotborough] [email; kt, serving with the army of Ed I
in Scotland, fought at the Battle of Falkirk, 22 July 1298] m1 Maude (-<1324);
m2 Isabel Deincourt (-1348 ?sp)] [eml Isabel left an extant Will] [eml
infers he probably only m once to Isabel Deincourt][A2A WWM/D/16 suggests he m
Agnes sis&cohier of Roger Bertram (-ipm 1312) Her coheirs were Isabella de Bray
m Norman Darcy leaving Philip de Bray and Christiana de Ros leaving Elias de
Penbum; and WWM/D/26,27 by 1324 he was m to Isabel Deyncourt & would seem to
imply his son John was by a previous marriage]
]
1) WILLIAM (-22 Mar 1322 Hung Pontefract); Ex for joining Er LANCASTER's
rebellion; unm?
2) JOHN (-10 Aug 1349 ipm); Sir; [eml In 1327 imprisoned, freed 9 Mar
1343/44] m Joan d of ADAM de RERESBY of Thribergh][A2A WWM/D/37 confirms some of
details and suggests he died of pestilence

William's (-<1342)daughters:
from email: 1)Joan m HENRY SOTHILL/SOOTHILL of Southill, Yorks »7s, she may
come from a different generation and 2)Margaret m WILLIAM BINGHAM but another
eml gives (1) Joan m Sir BRIEN de THORNHILL and (2) Margaret m HENRY de
PIERREPONT; A2A WWM/D/23 supports this last statement and that Hy was the son of
a Lord Robert de Pirpoint


Issue of John FitzWilliam (-1349)

1). JOHN FITZWILLIAM (1327-1385 murdered at Howden); Sir; Obtained East
Haddlesey manor and other property in Yorks on death Sir THOMAS de STAPLETON; [BP
In 1372 founded chantry of St EDWARDS at Sprotburgh church]; m Elizabeth
Clinton d? of WILLIAM CLINTON Er HUNTINGDON] [CP Vol VI p 649 Wm C (c1304-25 Aug
1354 sp [ac?] per ipm 28 Ed III] [eml Paley Baildon's History of Baildon and
the Baildons 1:343 et seq states Elizabeth’s surnames is uncertain] [VY
calls him Sir WILLIAM, but calls his son s of JOHN]
2) Joan m« Sir THOMAS de STAPLETON (-1373) [A2A WWM/D/61 He was s&h of Milo
de Stapilton]

regards,
Adrian


In a message dated 01/09/2007 01:27:15 GMT Standard Time,

terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:

John Ravilious and Rosie Bevans have documented that Joan Fitzwilliam who m.
Henry Sothill was the dau of Sir William Fitzwilliam (d. 8 Apr 1398) and
Maud Cromwell (d. aft 1415). This ended much confusion, since many placed
them several generations earlier. They also identified Henry's gr-father as
Sir Henry Sothill (d. bef 1376), who m. Dionisia ? (d. aft 1398). She m.(2)
Sir Thomas Markenfield (d. bef 1385/86), but her parents were unknown.

Dionisia is identified as the dau of Sir William Fitzwilliam of Elmley in a
uniquely long description of Sir Thomas Markenfield's tomb in Ripon
Cathedral (from Walbran's 1856 'Guide to Ripon, Harrogate, Fountains Abbey
etc') http://books.google.com/books?id=tLYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA40. It is unclear
if his identification was based on more than Markenfield's arms :

"In the aisle of the north transept - the groining of which, still lingering
with the square bay and flat dividing arch, merits notice, on account of its

early character - was formerly the chantry of Saint Andrews: the piscina, a
roundly trifoliated aperture, with a projecting basin, remaining in the
south wall. This chapel was also the burial-place of the Markenfields, of
Markenfield, near this city; but no other memorial of them now remains in
it, except a fine altar-tomb of Sir Thomas Markenfield, a warrior in the
time of Richard II, and Dionisia his wife, daughter of Sir William
Fitzwilliam, of Elmley. He is vested in a complete suit of armor, and wears
a collar, which exhibits the design of a park-pale and a stag couchant,
above the elongated, but depressed, pales in front. His arms '(argent) on a
bend (sable) 3 bezants' are sculptured on his breast, and on the hilt of his
richly decorated sword; as well as repeated, impaling Fitzwilliam [last
wife] and Miniot [1st wife], in a series of 15 shields, graven round the
tomb, commemorative of the alliances of his powerful and chivalrous race."

Dionisia 'relicta' is on a 9 Mar 1399 Nomination to Chantry (see JT Fowler's
'Memorials of the Church of SS. Peter and Wilfrid, Ripon' Vol 4 page 177-8
http://books.google.com/books?id=vTSsM- ... A2-PA177,M
1).
Several documents in earlier SGM posts indicate that Henry Sothill's father
(identified as Henry Esq., d.aft 1410) paid rent to Dionisia aft she
remarried Markenfield abt 1376. In 1410 Henry Sothill's father granted land
back to the Fitzwilliams prior to the m. of Joan and Henry, indicating
Dionisia was d. by then. If Dionysia was a Fitzwilliam, it might explain
some of the transactions.

The earliest evidence of Dionisia's son Henry Esq. suggests he was b. bef
1349, making it likely Dionisia was b. bef 1330. (see PRO website FILE - [no
title] - ref. DD/SR/209/321 - date: 1369 Contents Grant: Thomas de Roos,
Lord of Hamelak, to Henry de Sothill, rent of 10 marks. Manor of ?, Yorks).
The only person named Sir William of Elmsley of father age near Dionisia's
birthdate, was executed at Pontrefact 22 Mar 1322, with any family for him
previously unknown. If this Sir William is Dionisia's father and his mother
was Isabel Deincourt, Henry and Joan were 3rd cousins. But since Dionisia is
not named in Isabel's extensive will, this suggests that Sir William - if it
is he - was by a different mother albeit the same father as Isabel's son Sir
John.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
<<<<

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 18:46:38

There were only 10 Yale residential colleges in 1962.

This pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

If he wants to be taken seriously he needs to use his Real Name -- no
pseudonyms need apply.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46dc3c7e$0$25914$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
Ah, yes the old line from the Eli wannabe, "what college are you in?"
"Yale, like I told you."

Yale is a University, Yale College is the undergraduate program, there are
12 Residential Colleges within the University you have to be in one of
them.

Normandy

Jack Linthicum

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 03 sep 2007 19:00:57

On Sep 3, 1:46 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
There were only 10 Yale residential colleges in 1962.

This pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

If he wants to be taken seriously he needs to use his Real Name -- no
pseudonyms need apply.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

"Normandy" <aab...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message

news:46dc3c7e$0$25914$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...



Ah, yes the old line from the Eli wannabe, "what college are you in?"
"Yale, like I told you."

Yale is a University, Yale College is the undergraduate program, there are
12 Residential Colleges within the University you have to be in one of
them.

Normandy

Normandy

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av Normandy » 03 sep 2007 19:14:51

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
wMXCi.217$YE3.38@eagle.america.net...
There were only 10 Yale residential colleges in 1962.

This pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

If he wants to be taken seriously he needs to use his Real Name -- no
pseudonyms need apply.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

No one said the number of colleges in 1962. What college were you in and

whay year?

Normandy

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 sep 2007 19:41:57

<<In a message dated 09/02/07 12:41:30 Pacific Standard Time, jonathankirton@sympatico.ca writes:
This information was confirmed on the IGI: Katherine Cavendish (AFN:
9G59-JR),
born 1535, "of Chatsworth, Derbyshire", died about 1552. [&
again no marriage] >>

-----------------------------
If you're using an AFN that what you're citing is not the IGI. It's the "Ancestral File", quite a different animal. Looking up Katherine Cavendish in the Ancestral File, I confirm her AF number is there listed as 9G59-JR as your above, her parents are there listed as William Cavendish and Margaret Bostock. Her birth is listed as "abt 1535 of Chatsworth, Derbyshr" and her death as "Abt 1552".

However if you scroll down the page just a bit you will also see, on that same page
Marriage
Spouse : Thomas Brooke AFN 848F-L8

Click on his name, and you then get his individual page in the Ancestral File
listing his birth as 30 Dec 1533 of Cobham, Kent
and his parents as
George Brooke and Anne Braye

Please note that the Ancestral File is not a proof and is not a primary source, nor even a good secondary source. The Ancestral File is a compilation of various family group sheets submit by patrons like you, me and your crazy aunt Gladys who talks to people from Beta Reticuli, therefore should not be used to prove a line. It may be used as a guideline for *where* to look for that proof, but it itself is not a reliable source, and is not necessarily even based on any reliable sources.

Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Ping De: "D. Spencer Hines"

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 03 sep 2007 19:45:18

This pogue 'Normandy' won't reveal his Real Name.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Illegitimatis Non Carborundum

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Normandy" <aabbcc@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:46dc4f1b$0$5098$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: wMXCi.217$YE3.38@eagle.america.net...

There were only 10 Yale residential colleges in 1962.

This pogue 'Normandy' is a phony.

If he wants to be taken seriously he needs to use his Real Name -- no
pseudonyms need apply.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

No one said the number of colleges in 1962. What college were you in and
whay [sic] year?

Normandy

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 sep 2007 19:46:15

<<In a message dated 09/02/07 12:41:30 Pacific Standard Time, jonathankirton@sympatico.ca writes:
The eldest son, William Brooke became 5th. Baron Cobham (1527-1597),
[subject
of the above book] and the youngest son, Thomas Brooke (IGI AFN:848F-
L8) born:
30 Dec., 1533 at Cobham, Kent, married Catherine or Katherine
Cavendish, dau. >>

----------------
You didn't use quote marks above and its unclear to me if, regarding this exact birthdate you are quoting the book, or you are supplying that birthdate from the Ancestral File.

*If* you are quoting the book, then they are in conflict with other sources on the relation of Thomas as "youngest" and his birth "30 Dec 1533"

Will

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Cavendish, (died 1557)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 sep 2007 19:55:54

<<In a message dated 09/02/07 12:41:30 Pacific Standard Time, jonathankirton@sympatico.ca writes:
William Brooke, 5th. Baron Cobham, (1527-1597) had three sons, Henry,
William
and George.>>

----------------
Or, his eldest son by his second wife Frances Newton, was named Maximillian born 4 Dec 1560

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