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WJhonson

Re: Huttons of Dry Drayton (snippet for Hap Sutcliff)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 20:18:11

You state that Rose Hutton's husband was named Thomas St George,
Stirnet here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... eorge1.htm

states his name was Francis St George

WJhonson

Re: Huttons of Dry Drayton (snippet for Hap Sutcliff)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 20:18:11

You state that Rose Hutton's husband was named Thomas St George,
Stirnet here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... eorge1.htm

states his name was Francis St George

WJhonson

Re: Huttons of Dry Drayton (snippet for Hap Sutcliff)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 20:18:11

You state that Rose Hutton's husband was named Thomas St George,
Stirnet here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... eorge1.htm

states his name was Francis St George

Gjest

Re: Help with "Warda de Portsok', Portsoken ward" Publicatio

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 aug 2007 21:04:23

On 21 Aug., 05:17, "Dolores C. Phifer" <doloresc.phi...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Hello Everyone. Can anyone help me make out what "Warda de Portsok', Portsoken ward" means in the source below? Thanks.

Dolores

Portsoken ward is one of the wards into which the City of London is
divided for electoral purposes. Each Ward has its own annual meeting,
and elects representatives to the Court of Common Council.

A map of the London wards may be seen here:

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporat ... es_map.htm

MA-R

Gjest

Re: VIrtual Library Card

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 aug 2007 21:08:25

On 21 Aug., 18:47, "Le Bateman" <LeBate...@att.net> wrote:
Can someone tell me how a virtual library card can help me gain access to
primary Medieval sources?
Le

In some cases, libraries and universities subscribe to sites, eg
research sites. This access entitlement can in some cases be passed
on to their members and registered users.

Having a library card may therefore enable you to access these sites
from your own computer, if this is within the service agreement; you
use your library card number to log in.

For instance, Members of the Society of Genealogists can use their
library card to access the databases of a reasearch site once a
quarter (I think it is Ancestry.com but I'm not sure off the top of my
head).

MA-R

The Highlander

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av The Highlander » 21 aug 2007 21:28:26

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:03:28 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:14:21 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:39:07 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:38:15 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:35:46 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:16:24 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

Several posters in SCS are descended from the Border Reivers
(Raiders), myself included.

Your mother certainly put it about a bit. If it's not border reivers
it's Bonnie Prince whatsit or Robert the Bruce.

I think you're confusing my mother with your daughter, the wee hoor
who works the sailors down at the docks for five bucks a shot to pay
for her crack habit.


But is she related to William Wallace?

I have no idea who your daughter is related to.

Anglotrash is not my scene.

Funny that since you seem to be related to every other Scottish
historical figure. But as William Wallace supposedly didn't have any
surviving children I guess you must be descended from his idiot
brother. The one they don't like to talk about.

Ach, I can hardly cope with all the clumsy attempts at wit!

I'll bet they think you're "a real card" at your local boozer, down
there in the Great British Slum - England.

Away home your fatherless bastard. God curse you in all your
undertakings and guide your feet to the cliff edge - and over it!

Ionganntach mar a tha an cultar Sasannach a' toirt buaidh air modhan
sluaigh! - Amazing how the English culture affects people's manners!

As our cousins in Ireland say, "Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón!"
(Many a time a man's mouth broke his nose!)

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 22:14:17

You refer to 1052, but that's not the year to which I refer.
Aelfgar was outlawed the first time in 1055 see my extract of the A.C. in A.S.C. on
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... ady_Godiva

This is the time when he went to Ireland, got 18 more ships, and then went to Gruffydd in Wales and joined forces to counter-attack. Shortly after they all kissed and made-up and he was restored. Then a bit later his father dies and he succeeds to that Earldom as well or in exchange I'm not sure. Then he's outlawed again a bit futher on yet and drops off the earth.

Will



In a message dated 08/21/07 14:02:14 Pacific Standard Time, terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
When Aelfgar relinquished his earldom in 1052, he wasn't really 'outlawed'.

John Higgins

Re: Clues from Lists-Indexes, vol. 39 (Chancery Proc., Bridg

Legg inn av John Higgins » 21 aug 2007 22:58:37

This particular "descent" of Theophilus Leigh from Edward III is of course
dependent on your opinion of the purported legitimacy [or illegitmacy] of
Katherine Stradling, the wife of Maurice Dennis. This has been discussed at
length in this group in the past, but I don't believe that anyone has yet
presented evidence indicating that Katherine was a legitimate daughter of
Sir Edward Stradling and thus a daughter of Jane Beaufort. It still seems
to be just "wishful thinking"....

And Brad Verity made a strong case a few years ago that Jane Beaufort was an
illegitimate daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort by some [unknown] woman
other than Alice FitzAlan/Arundel. This doesn't break the line to Edward
III (if the Stradling question were resolved) but it should at least be
noted.

If the Stradling link is dismissed, I don't believe that Theophilus Leigh
has any descents from Edward III, although his wife Mary Brydges definitely
does....and these are the descents that Micahel was probably referring to.

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: Clues from Lists-Indexes, vol. 39 (Chancery Proc.,Bridges'
Division, 1613-1714, A-C)


In a message dated 08/21/07 11:31:17 Pacific Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
footnote 2 : "Theophilus Leigh, of Adlestrop, co Gloucester, Esq, son of
William Legh, Esq, by his third wife Joan, dau of Thomas Perry of the city

of Gloucester, Esq. He died 10 Feb 1724/5, aged about 78. She his second
wife, dau of James eighth Lord Chandos, by Elizabeth eldest dau and coheir
of Sir Henry Bernard of London, Kt. She died 13 June 1703, aged about 35.
These Leighs will be very familiar to thos acquainted with Jane
Austen's genealogy. To make them on-topic, I suspect their ascent to
Edward III through the Brydges family is detailed on Leo's great site.

---------------------
Sure I can do that
Theophilus Leigh of Adlestrop in 12 steps
William Leigh of Adlestrop d 17 Jun 1690
William Leigh of Adlestrop m Elizabeth Whorwood
Rowland Leigh of Adlestrop m Catherine Berkeley
Richard Berkeley of Stoke Gifford d 1605 m Elizabeth Reade of Melton
Sir John Berkeley of Stoke Gifford d 1546 m Isabella Dennis
Sir William Dennis of Durham m Anne Berkeley
Sir Walter Denys of Gloucs. m Agnes Danvers
Maurice Dennis of Olveston m Katherine Stradling
Sir Edward Stradling of St Donat's Castle d 1453 m Jane Beaufort d 1479
Henry Beauford, Bishop of Winchester d 1447 m Alice de Arundel
John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster m Caterine Roet
Edward III

Theophilus second wife Mary Brydges in 14 steps
James Brydges, 8th Lord Chandos m Elizabeth Barnard
John Brydges, 2nd Bart of Wilton Castle d 1651/2 m Mary Pearle
Giles Brydges of Wilton Castle m Mary Scudamore
Sir James Scudamore d.v.p. 14 Apr 1619 m Mary Throckmorton
Sir Thomas Throckmorton d 1607 m Elizabeth Berkeley
Richard Berkeley of Stoke Giffard m Elizabeth Reade of Melton

And then as above.
So they were distant cousins.

Will Johnson

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John Higgins

Re: Clues from Lists-Indexes, vol. 39 (Chancery Proc., Bridg

Legg inn av John Higgins » 21 aug 2007 23:14:52

What's your source for the assertion that Richard, Earl of Cornwall, was
Holy Roman Emperor? I believe that he was only King of the Romans (the
title of the designated heir to the Emperor) but he was quickly dispossessed
of even that title.

If you really need a royal descent for Hugh Alington, why not go back one
generation further and say that he was a descendant, in 14 steps, from King
John "Lackland"?

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: Clues from Lists-Indexes, vol. 39 (Chancery Proc.,Bridges'
Division, 1613-1714, A-C)


In a message dated 08/13/07 15:05:40 Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
p. 221
--Thornedick, Herbert, clerk, and John
--Allington, Hugh, and Anne his wife
--1665; Great Carlton [Lincs.] rectory

-------------------
http://books.google.com/books?id=IPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA968
Lincolnshire Pedigrees, by A R Maddison, Arthur Staunton Larken; pg 968
shows us that Herbert Thorndike was third son of Francis of Burwell later
ofScamblesby

Anne (Thorndike) Alington wife of Hugh Alington of Stenigot and Burwell
was his niece.

Hugh Alington has royal descent, 13 steps from Germany (if you will, or
HRE) being the descendent of Richard (*"Plantagenet"*) of Cornwall, Holy

Roman Emperor in 1256
Will Johnson

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Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 aug 2007 23:19:08

"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nbtlc3lbsijfluce9pkhkhi2vsl832d836@4ax.com...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:29:31 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:


"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:xsiyi.65$Jp2.1126@eagle.america.net...
Peter Stewart, our Tasmanian Devil in SGM, obviously has not the
slightest
idea of what a Top Banana is.

He needs to do some Basic Research,

Amusing...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Hines has no idea how to compose a simple phrase in Latin. He needs to do
some Basic Learning.

"Top banana" on the other hand indicates the top-billed act in a variaty
show or the leading person in a group. Nothing smart about it, the harping
use of the phrase by Hines is a dead giveaway of his own warped and
frustrated desire to be seen as the most prominent critic of others on
Usenet. But he doesn't cut it, because we all know he is a phoney: he uses
Latin tags to show of an elite education that he demonstrably missed.

For anyone who misssed it in October 2005, when he posted his own undoing
in
this aspect of his pretense, I have copied below his post asserting a
quite
wrong translation of the Latin term, "non sequitur", AFTER this had been
correctly given by me. Hines is not only unable to read and understand the
simplest Latin text, but he purports to impose his ignorance on everyone
else.

Needless to say, he won't admit the error, despite this being verifiable
by
any reader who checks an elementary Latin grammar.

Peter Stewart


From: "D. Spencer Hines" < poguemidden@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: _Non Sequitur_
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:42:23 -0000
References: <Yxa9d.17317$5O5.5889@news-server.bigpond.net.au
20041007125319.44745.qmail@web41724.mail.yahoo.com
cMj9d.17653$5O5.8570@news-server.bigpond.net.au
""Sequor" primarily means "to follow", and "sequitur" is the third
person indicative active, present tense, meaning "he/she/it follows"."

Peter Stewart

Actually, Peter, _SEQUITUR_ is third person, indicative, PASSIVE,
present tense -- meaning [literally, among other meanings] "he/she/it is
[is being] followed."

So, NON SEQUITUR literally means -- "it [the logic] is NOT being
followed" -- but your original, correct, "it does not follow" parses
better.

Cheers And Aloha,

Spencer


Thank you for that piece of entertainment, Peter, which deserves pride
of place alongside his "prima nocta" fantasies.

The word "deponent" is obviously not an active component of the
Commander's conceptual world.

Quite right, Letitia, although his ignorance of deponent verbs might
occasionally mislead him into an accidentally true expression.

For instance, if Hines wrote "patior" this would be equally true whether he
actually meant "I am suffering" or "I am being suffered".

But more usually it will be the same-old same-old Hinesian ignorance of
Latin, as when he thinks "mentitur" does not mean "he is lying" but rather
"he is being lied".

Peter Stewart

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 21 aug 2007 23:20:01

You are right, I'm confusing the 1055 'banishment' with Aelfgar's peaceful
earlier 1051 'interim' earlship. But please note that Florence does not
identity Godwine's replacement as earl. The 'interim earl' is only
identified in Malmsbury (the eminent 12th century historian) :

Florence's statements on Godwine's banishment abt Sep 1051 are here and on
the preceding page :
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz ... 1-PA152,M1

Florence's statements on Godwine's restoration 'to his former honors' abt 15
Sep 1052 are :
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz ... 1-PA154,M1 .

Malmesbury's statement is "Godwin and Sweyn retired to Flanders, and Harold
to Ireland. His [Godwin's] earldom was given to Elgar, the son of Leofric, a
man of active habits; who, receiving, governed it with ability, and readily
restored it to him [Godwin] upon his return; and afterwards, on the death of
Godwin, when Harold had obtained the dukedom of his father, he reclaimed it,
though, by the accusation of his enemies, he was banished for a time." See
http://books.google.com/books?id=W2ANAA ... #PPA220,M1

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


You refer to 1052, but that's not the year to which I refer.
Aelfgar was outlawed the first time in 1055 see my extract of the A.C. in
A.S.C. on
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... ady_Godiva

This is the time when he went to Ireland, got 18 more ships, and then went
to Gruffydd in Wales and joined forces to counter-attack. Shortly after
they all kissed and made-up and he was restored. Then a bit later his
father dies and he succeeds to that Earldom as well or in exchange I'm not
sure. Then he's outlawed again a bit futher on yet and drops off the
earth.

Will



In a message dated 08/21/07 14:02:14 Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
When Aelfgar relinquished his earldom in 1052, he wasn't really
'outlawed'.

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John Brandon

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 aug 2007 23:25:26

Quite right, Letitia, although his ignorance of deponent verbs might
occasionally mislead him into an accidentally true expression.

Ignorance of the correct spelling of the name of a correspondent is
usually considered bad form.

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 aug 2007 23:38:15

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1187735126.277800.149140@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Quite right, Letitia, although his ignorance of deponent verbs might
occasionally mislead him into an accidentally true expression.

Ignorance of the correct spelling of the name of a correspondent is
usually considered bad form.

Even Brandon can be right - who would have thought?

My apologies to Leticia.

Peter Stewart

John Brandon

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 aug 2007 23:57:07

Even Brandon can be right - who would have thought?

Your idol Dorothy Parker would be proud of you for that one ...

Gjest

Re: family tree maker

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 00:01:08

I do and I love it!! Been with them since DOS!.

Ans. to question... Either take them both out and put them in ...in correct
order 1st marriage first 2nd marriage 2nd... OR but a "abt. so and so"
date or "c. date" to put them in the correct order... OR last trick... put
a 1 in the first marriage... put a 2 in the second marriage... go to
another person... come back then remove the 1 and the 2 and they will stay
in that order.


Becky
ttg-inc@tx.rr.com
"Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might
as well dance !"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dantemortem" <dantemortem@gmail.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:36 PM
Subject: family tree maker


Does anyone use FTM? I would like to know how to put multiple marriages
in
chronological sequence. Many of my entries have the first marriage as #2.

best

dm

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Tony Ingham

Re: Book

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 22 aug 2007 00:31:06

Well Done, Brice.

I shouldn't worry about the 'heads up'. A modicum of honesty in this
area is quite refreshing.

All the best,

Tony Ingham


Clagett, Brice wrote:
In the past some have expressed interest in a book I have been writing,
long overdue,
called _Seven Centuries: Ancestry of John Brice de Treville Clagett and
Ann Calvert
Brooke Clagett for 20 Generations._

I have today placed a notice about this project on genealogy
marketplace.

I expect that some one will bite my head off for posting this modest
heads-up here,
but what the hell.

-------------------------------
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WJhonson

Re: First marriage of Rev. Charles Chauncy's mother Agnes

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 00:47:37

This is excellent news.

I have *already* had in my database Elizabeth Dixwell (dau of Mark) had married somebody Westrow. I didn't know which one.

And I had already had Anne Capell married Thomas Westrow.

Now we know Thomas and Anne had a son Thomas who is that husband of Elizabeth.

Thanks to John Brandon.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 01:05:43

Are you claiming that Malmesbury is the source for The Laud Chronicle ?
"The Laud Chronicle (E) — 1048 [1051] "And then Odda was appointed earl over Devon, and over Somerset, and over Dorset, and over Cornwall; and Aelfgar, earl Leofric's son, was given the earldom which Harold had had."



In a message dated 08/21/07 16:21:08 Pacific Standard Time, terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
The 'interim earl' is only
identified in Malmsbury (the eminent 12th century historian) :

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 01:13:23

Peter is a VERY sad case...

But that's what makes him Great Entertainment -- indeed the Top Banana of
SGM -- better than a Milton Berle, George Burns [and Gracie Allen] or a Sid
Caesar -- a Billy Crystal, a Dennis Miller or a Robin Williams in the
fascinating, volatile, ongoing Borscht Belt of USENET.

Peter has GRAVE fears concerning the exposure of his Family's Bastard
Descents, Financial and Sexual Scandals, Alcoholism, Chicanery, Corruption,
Charlatanry and Fraud.

"Yet [Person X] can't bare to have the subject broached, and [X] made me
promise not to share information on [X's] family background. I did this
again over Christmas, our first as a family for 14 years, and can't break my
word."

Peter Stewart, February 2004 -- to DSH

His Family doesn't want him doing Genealogy at all -- for fear of Leaks,
Exposure, Ridicule, Embarrassment & Possible Vengeance.

That makes for EXTREME stress on him -- DAILY.

Peter's problems are further compounded because of the Bollixed Brain
Syndrome [BBS] he suffers from -- coupled with the Trigeminal Neuralgia and
his other medical problems.

Pitiful -- To Be Sure...

But Always Entertaining.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

WJhonson

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 01:14:36

<<In a message dated 08/21/07 17:05:58 Pacific Standard Time, j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk writes:
I in fact did was "to make an apt approximation and possible confuse
*some* people who had not fully followed through the reasoning". Surely
that is not the same. >>

-------------
Could you explain how the approximation was "apt" ?
To my way of thinking it was based on a bad understanding of the mathematics of statistics.

Using your apt method, a 2% rate per 50 generations would give a 100% chance. Which of course is false. No human can determine what the answer will be without doing the appropriate math. For you to *constantly* complain that we're berating you, *instead* of simply admitting that you did not know the math and move on, speaks volumes.

Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Book

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 01:19:15

Well it sell at Amazon?

DSH

"Tony Ingham" <nugget@bordernet.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.977.1187739126.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Well Done, Brice.

I shouldn't worry about the 'heads up'. A modicum of honesty in this area
is quite refreshing.

All the best,

Tony Ingham

Clagett, Brice wrote:
In the past some have expressed interest in a book I have been writing,
long overdue,
called _Seven Centuries: Ancestry of John Brice de Treville Clagett and
Ann Calvert
Brooke Clagett for 20 Generations._

I have today placed a notice about this project on genealogy
marketplace.

I expect that some one will bite my head off for posting this modest
heads-up here,
but what the hell.

Alan Grey

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Alan Grey » 22 aug 2007 01:30:37

WJhonson wrote:
I'd like to suggest Ealdgyth, Aeldgifu and Edith are all the same name.


Further to this name issue. These names have quite different roots, so
it could not be said that they were the same name. Also, I do not think
that "eald" is an error for "ead" as suggested in another post. It
appears instead that "Aeld" [=ield/o] and "eald" [=ield] are effectively
the same [eld/ild], and mean old/age, while "eald" as the additional
meaning of honoured/great/exhalted, which is why the latter appears in
the word ealdorman. The two roots were probably treated as varieties of
the same word. On the other hand, "gifu" [giefu] means gift, whereas
"gyth" [gehthu/githu] means care/anxiety/sorrow (and I've also seen
[gyth] given the meaning of strife, perhaps as an extension of [githu]).

Thus, I would say that Aeldgifu means "great gift" whereas Ealdgyth
means "great sorrow".

On the other hand, as [taf] said, Edith derives from the name Eadgyth.
The root "ead" means riches/happiness. Thus, the name is a
juxtaposition of two concepts: happiness and sorrow.

In summary, all three are different names.

Alan R Grey

Note that I have transliterated "ð" as "th" in the above.

Sources: Clark Hall's, A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary, Second Edition,
(1916) and Bosworth and Toller's An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary (1898) and
supplement (1921).

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 01:33:44

Indubitably correct.

DSH

"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.985.1187741695.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 08/21/07 17:05:58 Pacific Standard Time,
j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk writes:

I in fact did was "to make an apt approximation and possible confuse
*some* people who had not fully followed through the reasoning". Surely
that is not the same.

-------------
Could you explain how the approximation was "apt" ?
To my way of thinking it was based on a bad understanding of the
mathematics of statistics.

Using your apt method, a 2% rate per 50 generations would give a 100%
chance. Which of course is false. No human can determine what the answer
will be without doing the appropriate math. For you to *constantly*
complain that we're berating you, *instead* of simply admitting that you
did not know the math and move on, speaks volumes.

Will Johnson

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 22 aug 2007 01:44:22

There are 2 distinctly different events - it can be confusing.

The Laud Chronicle (E) event shown as 1048(1051) appears to be the same as
Florence's aft 15 Apr 1053 event "His [Godwins's] son Harold succeeded to
his earldom, and Harold's earldom was given to Algar, son of earl Leofric."
This appears much the same as the Florence page 155 citation on your
'Aelfgar' page,
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz ... 1-PA155,M1.
If Florence is correct in his dating, the date of the Laud Chronicle (E)
event would appear too early (or vice versa, Florence may be too late). But
both deal with Aelfgar's assuming Harold's earldom.

The Florence/Malmesbury 'temporary earldom' from Sep 1051 to Sept 1052
precedes the above. It also clearly deals with Godwine 's earldom while he
was still alive - the period when Godwine was banished to Flanders and
Harold went to Ireland. In Godwine's absence (NOT death), Aelfgar became
temporary earl of Godwine's (NOT Harold's) earldom. Citations for this are
in my prior post.

There may very well be no Laud Chronicle (E) record matching the
Florence/Malmesbury event of Sep 1051 to Sep 1052.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


Are you claiming that Malmesbury is the source for The Laud Chronicle ?
"The Laud Chronicle (E) — 1048 [1051] "And then Odda was appointed earl
over Devon, and over Somerset, and over Dorset, and over Cornwall; and
Aelfgar, earl Leofric's son, was given the earldom which Harold had had."



In a message dated 08/21/07 16:21:08 Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
The 'interim earl' is only
identified in Malmsbury (the eminent 12th century historian) :

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 aug 2007 01:47:26

On Aug 22, 10:13 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Peter is a VERY sad case...

But that's what makes him Great Entertainment -- indeed the Top Banana of
SGM -- better than a Milton Berle, George Burns [and Gracie Allen] or a Sid
Caesar -- a Billy Crystal, a Dennis Miller or a Robin Williams in the
fascinating, volatile, ongoing Borscht Belt of USENET.

And what exactly, Hines, is it that makes you such very poor
entertainment?

You have screwed your own joke, as the comedians you list are not "sad
cases". Anyone less sad than Gracie Allen would be hard to imagine.

Peter has GRAVE fears concerning the exposure of his Family's Bastard
Descents, Financial and Sexual Scandals, Alcoholism, Chicanery, Corruption,
Charlatanry and Fraud.

Hines I gave you permission to post whatever you like from my emails,
that alone can inform you about whatever you fabricated this from -
hardly as sign of "GRAVE fears".

"Yet [Person X] can't bare to have the subject broached, and [X] made me
promise not to share information on [X's] family background. I did this
again over Christmas, our first as a family for 14 years, and can't break my
word."

Peter Stewart, February 2004 -- to DSH

His Family doesn't want him doing Genealogy at all -- for fear of Leaks,
Exposure, Ridicule, Embarrassment & Possible Vengeance.

Didn't in 2004, when the subject came up in very particular
circumstances.

That makes for EXTREME stress on him -- DAILY.

Nonsense. I was not interested from a genealogical point of view in
the matters that caused real problems and acknowledged embarrassment
for both sides of my family, but naturally this was not understood by
people who knew nothing of SGM in 2004 except that it was a public
forum for interest in family backgrounds. My own interests are of no
concern, and nor is the true information available to Hines.

Peter's problems are further compounded because of the Bollixed Brain
Syndrome [BBS] he suffers from -- coupled with the Trigeminal Neuralgia and
his other medical problems.

Pitiful -- To Be Sure...

Freely admitted -- To Be Sure... so nothing for Hines to sink his
rotten fangs into, despite his endless pitiful attempts.

But Always Entertaining.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

The only constant entertainment that Hines can provide is his refusal
to correct his own botched try at Latin. This is an unmistakable sign
of his Narcissistic Personality Disorder - lie Richardson, he can't
bear to admit error except as a smokescreen in the most minor slips.
But chronic ignorance, that both of them expose to public view and
lasting record daily, is outside their limited powers of self-control.

As is stopping their lies, no matter how much it hurts them to go on.
Sick _and_ moronic.

Peter Stewart

WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 01:49:44

<<In a message dated 08/21/07 17:31:59 Pacific Standard Time, a.grey@niwa.co.nz writes:
Thus, I would say that Aeldgifu means "great gift" whereas Ealdgyth
means "great sorrow". >>
--------------------------
This then would tend toward the argument that the ladies have been merged inappropriately. *Or* it would tend toward the argument that some contemporary and slightly-later writers, screwed up the name.

Of course that argument might wander into discussions of what original languages were being writen in, and whether they had such a distinction, and whether in the transmission some sloppy copyist had misplaced a letter.

Will

Gjest

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 01:52:49

On Aug 21, 5:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Peter is a VERY sad case...

But that's what makes him Great Entertainment -- indeed the Top Banana of
SGM -- better than a Milton Berle, George Burns [and Gracie Allen] or a Sid
Caesar -- a Billy Crystal, a Dennis Miller or a Robin Williams in the
fascinating, volatile, ongoing Borscht Belt of USENET.

Peter has GRAVE fears concerning the exposure of his Family's Bastard
Descents, Financial and Sexual Scandals, Alcoholism, Chicanery, Corruption,
Charlatanry and Fraud.

"Yet [Person X] can't bare to have the subject broached, and [X] made me
promise not to share information on [X's] family background. I did this
again over Christmas, our first as a family for 14 years, and can't break my
word."

Peter Stewart, February 2004 -- to DSH

His Family doesn't want him doing Genealogy at all -- for fear of Leaks,
Exposure, Ridicule, Embarrassment & Possible Vengeance.

That makes for EXTREME stress on him -- DAILY.

Peter's problems are further compounded because of the Bollixed Brain
Syndrome [BBS] he suffers from -- coupled with the Trigeminal Neuralgia and
his other medical problems.

Pitiful -- To Be Sure...

But Always Entertaining.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

You seem to be the only one fixated on the history of Peter's family.
In fact, you are fixated on bastard lines - period. Whatever could be
the reason....? Actually I don't care about your bastard lines any
more than I do about his. The only bastard lines I care about are my
own. No matter what my ancestors did or who they were, they are mine
to love or hate as I choose. The same is true of everyone else. You
just try to project your own shame and inadequacy on others who, in
your opinion, should be ashamed. When they are not, you dive right in
with your shrill yapping and sit back, naked, thinking everyone now
admires your outfit. Notice how your only supporters are the
illiterate and easily led.

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 aug 2007 02:07:22

On Aug 22, 10:52 am, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 21, 5:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:





Peter is a VERY sad case...

But that's what makes him Great Entertainment -- indeed the Top Banana of
SGM -- better than a Milton Berle, George Burns [and Gracie Allen] or a Sid
Caesar -- a Billy Crystal, a Dennis Miller or a Robin Williams in the
fascinating, volatile, ongoing Borscht Belt of USENET.

Peter has GRAVE fears concerning the exposure of his Family's Bastard
Descents, Financial and Sexual Scandals, Alcoholism, Chicanery, Corruption,
Charlatanry and Fraud.

"Yet [Person X] can't bare to have the subject broached, and [X] made me
promise not to share information on [X's] family background. I did this
again over Christmas, our first as a family for 14 years, and can't break my
word."

Peter Stewart, February 2004 -- to DSH

His Family doesn't want him doing Genealogy at all -- for fear of Leaks,
Exposure, Ridicule, Embarrassment & Possible Vengeance.

That makes for EXTREME stress on him -- DAILY.

Peter's problems are further compounded because of the Bollixed Brain
Syndrome [BBS] he suffers from -- coupled with the Trigeminal Neuralgia and
his other medical problems.

Pitiful -- To Be Sure...

But Always Entertaining.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

You seem to be the only one fixated on the history of Peter's family.
In fact, you are fixated on bastard lines - period. Whatever could be
the reason....? Actually I don't care about your bastard lines any
more than I do about his. The only bastard lines I care about are my
own. No matter what my ancestors did or who they were, they are mine
to love or hate as I choose. The same is true of everyone else. You
just try to project your own shame and inadequacy on others who, in
your opinion, should be ashamed. When they are not, you dive right in
with your shrill yapping and sit back, naked, thinking everyone now
admires your outfit. Notice how your only supporters are the
illiterate and easily led.

Thank you, Bronwen, this is deadly accurate and you put it very well.

The bastard that fascinates Hines in my ancestry was more recent (born
in the third quarter of the 19th-century) than his usual fixation with
medieval ones, but that probably adds to his stupid & wrong idea that
I should be ashamed. The person of interest to him was most colourful,
as it happens, one of the first private detectives in the British
empire, who was speared to death by Aborigines in Western Australia.
Not someone whose history I could very well hide, even if I wanted to
as some of his other descendants did.

But not on topic here.

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

Re: First Marriage Of The Reverend Charles Chauncy's Mother

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 03:23:31

Hmmmmmm...

Elizabeth Dixwell was related to the well-known English regicide who
escaped to New Haven, Connecticut?
------------------------------------------------------

regicides

regicides (rej'isidz) [key][Lat., =king-killers], in English history, name
given to those judges and court officers responsible for the trial and
execution of Charles I in 1649. After the Restoration (1660) of the monarchy
they were excepted from the general pardon granted by the Act of Indemnity.
At that time 41 of the 59 signers of the king's death warrant were still
alive. Fifteen of them fled: William Goffe, John Dixwell, and Edward Whalley
went to New England; several went to Germany and Holland; and Edmund Ludlow
and four others went to Switzerland.

Some were able to convince Charles II that they had had little to do with
his father's trial and that they were loyal to the monarchy, and they were
reprieved. Nine of those who signed the warrant and four others closely
connected with the trial were hanged. Six others, who were deemed less
politically dangerous, were imprisoned for life; some were later reprieved.

See C. V. Wedgwood, A Coffin for King Charles (1964); N. H. Mayfield,
Puritans and Regicide (1988).

DSH

"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.979.1187740072.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

This is excellent news.

I have *already* had in my database Elizabeth Dixwell (dau of Mark) had
married somebody Westrow. I didn't know which one.

And I had already had Anne Capell married Thomas Westrow.

Now we know Thomas and Anne had a son Thomas who is that husband of
Elizabeth.

Thanks to John Brandon.

Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 03:56:25

Peter has GRAVE fears concerning the COMPLETE exposure of his Family's
Bastard Descents, Financial and Sexual Scandals, Alcoholism, Chicanery,
Corruption, Charlatanry, Concupiscence, Crimes and Fraud.

"Yet [Person X] can't bare [sic] to have the subject broached, and [X] made
me promise not to share information on [X's] family background. I did this
again over Christmas, our first as a family for 14 years, and can't break my
word."

Peter Stewart, February 2004 -- to DSH

His Family doesn't want him doing Genealogy at all -- for fear of Leaks,
Exposure, Ridicule, Embarrassment & Possible Vengeance.

"The [Family Name] descent is very undistinguished, through a line of [X, Y
and Z] Leo was tracking the [Similar Family Name] and I didn't want to get
into his database."

Peter Stewart, February 2004 -- to DSH

Peter Stewart...

Pitiful -- To Be Sure...

But Always Entertaining.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 aug 2007 04:20:01

It's Groundhog day in Hawaii again, again.

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:jCNyi.109$Jp2.1167@eagle.america.net...
Peter has GRAVE fears concerning the COMPLETE exposure of his Family's
Bastard Descents, Financial and Sexual Scandals, Alcoholism, Chicanery,
Corruption, Charlatanry, Concupiscence, Crimes and Fraud.

"Yet [Person X] can't bare [sic] to have the subject broached, and [X]
made
me promise not to share information on [X's] family background. I did
this
again over Christmas, our first as a family for 14 years, and can't break
my
word."

Peter Stewart, February 2004 -- to DSH

His Family doesn't want him doing Genealogy at all -- for fear of Leaks,
Exposure, Ridicule, Embarrassment & Possible Vengeance.

"The [Family Name] descent is very undistinguished, through a line of [X,
Y and Z] Leo was tracking the [Similar Family Name] and I didn't want to
get into his database."

The omitted name is Stewart, simple as that. My agnatic ancestors were "dim
Perthshire squireens" as I recall describing them, either to Hines or maybe
to Leo. What is conceivably shameful or embarrassing about that? Is there
supposed to be some illustrious line of Hines ancestors that throw mine into
the dirt by contrast? plenty of people have more distinguished ancestors
than mine, but I don't see this as a merit in the descendants.

Hines can't understand that someone might be honest and undisturbed about a
family background. Why is that?

There have been two public scandals in my family's living memory, one on
each parent's side. Neither of these involved me or reflects on me. One was
totally false, cruel and vengeful opportunism (in the present mode of Hines)
on the part of a yellow press editor in the 1920s, who had been sacked from
a previous career by his victim's husband after being caught cheating. This
still rankles bitterly with some relatives, but never with me except
vicariously as a child. The other was a personal humiliation that rather
absurdly clouded the last days of another grandparent, and that I have
already described here in outline. Big - as I said before - deal.

Peter Stewart

TJ Booth

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av TJ Booth » 22 aug 2007 04:57:43

I've just reread ASC, Florence and Malmesbury. They all speak of the same
event using different sources and different dates. The common threads are
that Godwin is alive in all sources, and all discuss the time when Godwine
fled to Flanders and Harold went to Ireland.

ASC dates the flight to Flanders to 1048, and states that Odda received
Godwine's earldom and Aelfgar received Harold's earldom. ASC dates the
return of Godwine and Harold to 1052, when "they gave his [Godwine's]
earldom clean to Godwine, and as full and free as he before possessed it,
and to his sons also all that they before possessed. . .
http://books.google.com/books?id=4jEIAA ... #PPA427,M1. Though
unstated, Aelfgar had to surrender his earlship in 1052.

Florence provides more specific dating of the event (the flight to Flanders
is Sep 1051, the return is Sep 1052 - the citations are in the post below)
but does not identify any interim earls.

Malmesbury gives no dating but contradicts ASC by stating that Aelfgar
assumed Godwine's (not Harold's) earlship and makes no mention of Odda (i.e.
earl Aethelwine, who d. a monk in 1056 according to Florence).

So Malmesbury was NOT the source of the ASC.






----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net>
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


There are 2 distinctly different events - it can be confusing.

The Laud Chronicle (E) event shown as 1048(1051) appears to be the same as
Florence's aft 15 Apr 1053 event "His [Godwins's] son Harold succeeded to
his earldom, and Harold's earldom was given to Algar, son of earl
Leofric."
This appears much the same as the Florence page 155 citation on your
'Aelfgar' page,
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz ... 1-PA155,M1.
If Florence is correct in his dating, the date of the Laud Chronicle (E)
event would appear too early (or vice versa, Florence may be too late).
But
both deal with Aelfgar's assuming Harold's earldom.

The Florence/Malmesbury 'temporary earldom' from Sep 1051 to Sept 1052
precedes the above. It also clearly deals with Godwine 's earldom while he
was still alive - the period when Godwine was banished to Flanders and
Harold went to Ireland. In Godwine's absence (NOT death), Aelfgar became
temporary earl of Godwine's (NOT Harold's) earldom. Citations for this
are
in my prior post.

There may very well be no Laud Chronicle (E) record matching the
Florence/Malmesbury event of Sep 1051 to Sep 1052.

Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois


----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva


Are you claiming that Malmesbury is the source for The Laud Chronicle ?
"The Laud Chronicle (E) — 1048 [1051] "And then Odda was appointed earl
over Devon, and over Somerset, and over Dorset, and over Cornwall; and
Aelfgar, earl Leofric's son, was given the earldom which Harold had had."



In a message dated 08/21/07 16:21:08 Pacific Standard Time,
terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net writes:
The 'interim earl' is only
identified in Malmsbury (the eminent 12th century historian) :

-------------------------------
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-------------------------------
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Dolores C. Phifer

Re:Agnes (Welch) (Humberston) Chauncy / Huttons, Haseldens,

Legg inn av Dolores C. Phifer » 22 aug 2007 05:09:34

Hello John. I remember seeing CHICHELEY while working on some of my family lines so I took the bait... Ok... Look what I found while looking for my Robert WHITE and Alice/Alecia, etc... does this make us way distant cousin? Ha!

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/us ... names.html
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/us ... GENEO2.pdf
William Chicheley Born ~ 1450
Thomas Chicheley Born ~ 1493
Elizabeth Chicheley Born ~1526
Frances Dockwra Born ~1497


http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... cChicheley
http://fabpedigree.com/jahn1.htm
625846: John CHICHELE; (CHICHELEY); 1404? - 1451+
652042: Valentine (Alen) CHICHE (CHICHELE)
652043: Philippa CHICHELEY
1251692: William CHICHELE; (CHICHELEY); ? - 1425?
1304086: Robert CHICHELEY; (CHICHLEY)


I first ran some Google Searches to see if any similar websites showed up... a few did.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/us ... names.html

RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives (November 2006)Re: Was George Chauncy's wife Ann (Welch) Humberston or Agnes (Winch) Humberston? SHAA MAYORS OF LONDON · Re: SHAA MAYORS OF LONDON ...
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-11 - 95k - Cached - Similar pages


Res Anon - New General Catalog of Old Books & AuthorsVol 1 (anon) [n|1911] George Chauncey FERRIS {US?} (M: ? - ? ...... The Blooming Of The Lilies (anon) [1909] Agnes Maule MACHAR {CA} (F: 1837 Jan 23 - 1927 ....
http://www.authorandbookinfo.com/ngcoba/1.htm - 250k - Cached - Similar pages


RootsWeb: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives (November 2006)Re: Was George Chauncy's wife Ann (Welch) Humberston or Agnes (Winch) Humberston? SHAA MAYORS OF LONDON · Re: SHAA MAYORS OF LONDON ...
archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-11 - 95k - Cached - Similar pages


http://www.google.com/search?q=Agnes,+W ... 7&filter=0

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz= ... Chauncy%2C

Your search - Huttons, Haseldens, Chicheleys, Docwras, Turpins - did not match any documents.

Your search - Huttons, Haseldens, Chicheleys, Docwras, - did not match any documents.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz= ... tnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz= ... tnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22%7BJa ... 7&filter=0

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... ea83f9e89e

I know Will that I need to get sources... but it's a place to get some background if for the research.

Hope something helps.

Later,
Dolores


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder/Briard


Want to try some mediaeval genealogy now, either of you?

See my posting on Agnes (Welch) (Humberston) Chauncy next door.

Don't you have anything further in your limited repertoire than
Huttons, Haseldens, Chicheleys, Docwras, and Turpins?

Paul Mackenzie

Re: FPE probability

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 22 aug 2007 05:25:18

John Plant wrote:
Thanks Simon for a bit of mathematical sanity.

Putting this on a more formal footing

if p is the probability of FPE in one generation
then (1-p) is the probability of no FPE in one generation
and (1 - p)^n is the probability of no FPE in n generations
giving
1 - (1-p)^n as the probability of at least one FPE in n generations


Note that, for small p, 1 - (1-p)^n approximates to pn, if I have not
forgotten all of my elementary math. This is not a particularly good
approximation for p=0.02 and n=25 however, and when I said "about 50%"
much earlier (as a quick rough stab at it, leading on to much abuse), it
would have been better if I had said 60% (not that the experimental data
is accurate enough for the difference to matter and I thought it
adequate for a rough estimate on this list to conflate the experimental
uncertainty with the calculation; nonetheless, this clarity is a
blessing for those who understand it). I had not realized there would be
so much interest in this fine detail on this list.

this assumes
1 p is constant throughout the generations
2 the probability of an FPE in one generation is independent of an
FPE in any previous or succeeding generation - I'm not convinced that is
true

p = 0.02 n = 25 gives .40 for at least one FPE in 25 generations
p = 0.05 n = 25 gives .72 for at least one FPE in 25 generations
p= 0.1 n = 25 gives .93 for at least one FPE in 25 generations

cheers

Simon

(1-p)^n means raise (1-p) to the power n



Hi All:

Thanks for the lucid discussion of this matter. This is an important
aspect of genealogy. One can infer from this, that many medieval
genealogical trees may be suspect.

Some other comments:

1. p may also vary between generations depending on cultural mores.
2. what scenario do you envisage where the FPE in one generation affects
another?

Regards

Paul

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 22 aug 2007 05:26:19

On Aug 21, 5:30 pm, Alan Grey <a.g...@niwa.co.nz> wrote:
WJhonson wrote:
I'd like to suggest Ealdgyth, Aeldgifu and Edith are all the same name.

Further to this name issue. These names have quite different roots, so
it could not be said that they were the same name. Also, I do not think
that "eald" is an error for "ead" as suggested in another post. It
appears instead that "Aeld" [=ield/o] and "eald" [=ield] are effectively
the same [eld/ild], and mean old/age, while "eald" as the additional
meaning of honoured/great/exhalted, which is why the latter appears in
the word ealdorman. The two roots were probably treated as varieties of
the same word.

Yes, but I don't recall ever having seen Eald-/AEld- used in an
authentic name, while Ead- is one of the most common roots. That is
why I suggested error. Do you know of an example? (I guess I should
check PASE)

taf

Dolores C. Phifer

Re: [gen-medieval] Help with "Warda de Portsok', Portsoken w

Legg inn av Dolores C. Phifer » 22 aug 2007 05:32:23

Hello MA-R. Thanks. This will help me figure out ay least what part of
London my ancestor worked in. Best Regards, Dolores


----- Original Message -----
From: <mjcar@btinternet.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Help with "Warda de Portsok',Portsoken ward" Publication: Two
Early London Subsidy Rolls

On 21 Aug., 05:17, "Dolores C. Phifer" <doloresc.phi...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Hello Everyone. Can anyone help me make out what "Warda de Portsok',
Portsoken ward" means in the source below? Thanks. Dolores


Portsoken ward is one of the wards into which the City of London is
divided for electoral purposes. Each Ward has its own annual meeting,
and elects representatives to the Court of Common Council.

A map of the London wards may be seen here:
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporat ... es_map.htm

MA-R

Alan Grey

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av Alan Grey » 22 aug 2007 05:36:32

taf wrote:
On Aug 21, 5:30 pm, Alan Grey <a.g...@niwa.co.nz> wrote:

WJhonson wrote:

I'd like to suggest Ealdgyth, Aeldgifu and Edith are all the same name.

Further to this name issue. These names have quite different roots, so
it could not be said that they were the same name. Also, I do not think
that "eald" is an error for "ead" as suggested in another post. It
appears instead that "Aeld" [=ield/o] and "eald" [=ield] are effectively
the same [eld/ild], and mean old/age, while "eald" as the additional
meaning of honoured/great/exhalted, which is why the latter appears in
the word ealdorman. The two roots were probably treated as varieties of
the same word.


Yes, but I don't recall ever having seen Eald-/AEld- used in an
authentic name, while Ead- is one of the most common roots. That is
why I suggested error. Do you know of an example? (I guess I should
check PASE)


Yes, PASE has AEldred, Ealdred, Ealdgyth, Ealdberht and a number of
others (sp. Ea- rather than AE-).

Alan

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 22 aug 2007 06:08:55

On Aug 21, 9:36 pm, Alan Grey <a.g...@niwa.co.nz> wrote:

Yes, PASE has AEldred, Ealdred, Ealdgyth, Ealdberht and a number of
others (sp. Ea- rather than AE-).

I forgot about Eldred, which was common. The others I don't recall
having come across, although there are even a couple of kings.

taf

WJhonson

Re: Agnes (Welch) (Humberston) Chauncy / Huttons, Haseldens,

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 06:09:03

<<In a message dated 08/21/07 21:10:50 Pacific Standard Time, doloresc.phifer@comcast.net writes:
I know Will that I need to get sources... but it's a place to get some background if for the research. >>
---------------
Dolores confine your searches to Google Books.
That will help.
These online trees are worthless 99.999 percent of them are absolutely worthless :)

Worth....less. Without worth. Of no worth :)

Will

D. Spencer Hines

Re: July 20, 1944 Plot To Kill Hitler

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 07:07:16

<http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070821190229.85c66zlt&show_article=1>

"Tom Cruise is starring as Count Claus Schenk von Stauffenberg, an
aristocratic Nazi officer who mounted a failed plot to assassinate Adolf
Hitler in 1944 as Germany was losing World War II." -- _Valkyrie_ is the
projected name of the film.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_20_Plot>

God Bless The Men Who Tried To Kill Adolf Hitler On This Date 63 Years
Ago....

Especially cousin Colonel Claus Schenk Count von Stauffenberg.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_Schenk_Graf_von_Stauffenberg>

His Genealogy is especially fascinating.

RIP

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Leticia Cluff

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 22 aug 2007 12:39:00

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:25:26 -0700, John Brandon
<starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quite right, Letitia, although his ignorance of deponent verbs might
occasionally mislead him into an accidentally true expression.

Ignorance of the correct spelling of the name of a correspondent is
usually considered bad form.

Peter is not the first to misspell my name. Even DSH has incorrectly
referred to me as Letitia.

I ascribe the error to excessive familiarity with the Roman goddess of
gaiety, Laetitia.

This trivial problem can be avoided by simply calling me:

Tish

conaught2

Re:Divorce Medieval Style

Legg inn av conaught2 » 22 aug 2007 13:16:47

There is a very interesting book published in 2007 about this subject. I was interested in the book because it tells about Katherine Dowdall of Termonfeckin and her request for a dissoultion of her marriage on the grounds of "force and fear". The book arrived yesterday and it has some great information.

To Have and To Hold - Marrying and Its Documentation in Western Christendom, 400-1600, Edited by Philip L. Reynolds and John Witte, Jr.

Some of the chapters:

"Marriage Agreements from 12th Century Southern France by Cynthia Johnson

Marriage Contracts in Medieval England by R. H. Helmholz

Marriage Contracts and the Church Courts of 14th Century England by Frederik Pedersen

Marrying and Marriage Litigation in Medieval Ireland by Art Cosgrove

Marriage Contracts in Medieval Iceland

Contracting Marriage in Renaissance Florence

Marital Property Law as Socio-Cultural Text: The Cast of Late-Medieval Douai."

The Irish chapter tells what constitutes a valid marriage. It is fascinating reading.

Margaret K.

John Plant

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av John Plant » 22 aug 2007 13:32:53

WJhonson wrote:
In a message dated 08/21/07 17:05:58 Pacific Standard Time,
j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk writes:
I in fact did was "to make an apt approximation and possible confuse
*some* people who had not fully followed through the reasoning".
Surely that is not the same.

-------------
Could you explain how the approximation was "apt" ?
To my way of thinking it was based on a bad understanding of the
mathematics of statistics.

Using your apt method, a 2% rate per 50 generations would give a 100%
chance. Which of course is false. No human can determine what the
answer will be without doing the appropriate math. For you to
*constantly* complain that we're berating you, *instead* of simply
admitting that you did not know the math and move on, speaks volumes.

Will Johnson

I *did* know the math (at least I did around 40 years ago). I still
remember some of it, at least in general outline. My original statement
was correct to within the range of experimental error.

I did not say that the np approximation was always apt; I said it was
not particularly good as soon as I mentioned it for n=25 and p=0.2.
Perhaps you could remind us all of a fuller series expansion of 1-(1-p)^n
if you want an approximation that works better at higher values. My
approximation, which I vaguely remembered, didn't do too badly for p=0.2
and n=25. I never claimed that it was good for n=50, but just expected
that the extrpolation would fall off gradually for higher n. To my mind,
you just seem to have introduced a higher value of n while keeping to the
first-order approximation to score a cheap point, just to show that the
low n,p approximation does not work for high n and p. Of course it doesn't.
The higher order terms come in to play.

Turning to the interjections of DSH. Apart from the math
he claimed that my looniest idea was that there was a genealogical
connection between Plant and Plantagenet even though I had already gone
to great lengths to explain that it was not my idea at all; at no
stage have I supported it, quite the contrary. He has posted this
dishonesty in another newsgroup in which I do not participate.

Before this, you had started out by saying that I go from a faulty
premise to a faulty conclusion, as if the whole methodology was wrong,
even though it was not. DSH attacked the math and introduced a calculation
suitable for higher n and p. I started out by thanking him but he then
persisted in mounting personal attacks on me. I am not *constantly*
complaining, as you put it; I have remained very patient in the face of
these affronts; but, since you mention it, these are my complaints.

I will gladly admit to my shortcomings. Very early in this debate, I
said "no-one's perfect". My math is very rusty: I haven't used it for
years. I used to be very good at it but I have since forgotten most of
it, as I have already mentioned.

The question is: will others on this list admit to their shortcomings
and move on? Will you and others admit that I did not say anything that
was substantially incorrect and that there has been needless berating.
Will DSH admit that his presentation of the math was not nearly as
elegant as that by Simon. You single out me to admit things. Is that
because you think that I will where others will not? I have asked DSH
about his mathematical qualifications and he has not answered. He has
foisted himself upon us, partly aided by you, as though he is an expert and
yet he has failed to substantiate that he has any depth of knowledge
and he has ignored other people's questions.

Perhaps, with a bit more helpfulness and a bit less posturing and berating,
we could all move on.

John Plant

Jack Linthicum

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Jack Linthicum » 22 aug 2007 13:38:57

On Aug 21, 11:20 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Is there
supposed to be some illustrious line of Hines ancestors that throw mine into
the dirt by contrast? plenty of people have more distinguished ancestors
than mine, but I don't see this as a merit in the descendants.



His father was a superman, but military service took him away from the
family during the war and after. Wellington went to college for high
school, graduated from the USNA, learned to fly, served heroically in
WWII, part of the Manhattan Project, administered missile production
for the Navy, NATO staff, served on the predecessor to NASA. You know
average guy, the son couldn't live up to without the crutch of having
"great ancestors". 35th cousins and 18th grandfathers all meticulously
carved out by the kind of geneaologists that can find royal blood in a
drunken homeless person.

Gjest

Re: Divorce Medieval Style

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 14:14:49

On 22 Aug., 13:16, "conaught2" <conaug...@charter.net> wrote:
There is a very interesting book published in 2007 about this subject. I was interested in the book because it tells about Katherine Dowdall of Termonfeckin and her request for a dissoultion of her marriage on the grounds of "force and fear". The book arrived yesterday and it has some great information.

To Have and To Hold - Marrying and Its Documentation in Western Christendom, 400-1600, Edited by Philip L. Reynolds and John Witte, Jr.

Some of the chapters:

"Marriage Agreements from 12th Century Southern France by Cynthia Johnson

Marriage Contracts in Medieval England by R. H. Helmholz

Marriage Contracts and the Church Courts of 14th Century England by Frederik Pedersen

Marrying and Marriage Litigation in Medieval Ireland by Art Cosgrove

Marriage Contracts in Medieval Iceland

Contracting Marriage in Renaissance Florence

Marital Property Law as Socio-Cultural Text: The Cast of Late-Medieval Douai."

The Irish chapter tells what constitutes a valid marriage. It is fascinating reading.

Margaret K.

Sounds fascinating. I see it is available in the UK for 45 pounds,
which is very reasonable for a Cambridge University Press text. Many
thanks for the heads-up.

Cheers, Michael

Ken Ozanne

Re: STAWELL/STOWELL COTHELSTONE

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 22 aug 2007 14:20:12

Arthur,
There is a fairly extensive pedigree of the Stowell family of
Cothelstone, Somerset in the 1623 Visitation of Somerset, pages 106-107.

There is reference in CP Vol XIIA (under Stawell) and further
references in the footnotes there.

The Falaise Roll and the Battle Abbey Roll are not worthwhile
sources.

I fear that your pedigrees of 3000 years will not stand up under
close scrutiny. There are plenty of members of this group who will gladly
show you where they break down. Of course, if they do stand up, we will all
be delighted!

Hope this helps. Try to ignore our flame wars - there are some very
erudite people here.

Best,
Ken


On 19/8/07 10:37, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
<gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: arthuri@alphalink.com.au
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:41:22 -0700
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Somerset land grants by William

G'day Folks,
This is my first post to this group. I have a problem which I hope
that someone can resolve.

I am descended from the Stawell family. Oral tradition, plus
information that I located on a Web Site dealing with Somerset,
suggest that the earliest person of the family who has been
identified, is an Adam De Coveston, who supposedly was granted land
by William the Conqueror. I emailed to the contact person on that site
and have received no reply and the information appears to have been
removed. This suggests to me that they had picked up on some fairy
tale that they were unable to verify.

I have copies of the Falaise Roll and the Battle Abbey Roll and have
identified 3 people with the given name Adam, who appear in both
rolls. I have read the text associated with all three, in the Falaise
Roll and none of them appear to be associated with Somerset.

I have two copies of the Domesday Book and neither of them identify an
Adam associated with Stawell. I cannot remember, off the top of my
head, whether I have identified Coveston (or Cothelston, or any other
variation in spelling). in either version. One version (the Penquin
translation) is organised by name within each county. The other
version is a single volume version which is organised by location
name, within each county.

Does anyone have any knowledge of this Adam De Coveston or can you
point me to any readily available source where I can identify who he
was, so that I can extend the lineage further back. I have several
lines going back 3000 years and feel that he must tie in to at least
one of them.

Sorry that this first foray into this list is so long. I offer
sincere thanks to anyone who may be able to provide information to
resolve this dilemma.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue
Melbourne,
Victoria,
Australia.

Duwop

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Duwop » 22 aug 2007 15:42:59

On Aug 20, 11:16 am, The Highlander <mich...@shaw.ca> wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:59:11 +0100, Bryn

<SNIP very informative entertaining post>

My personal picture of a Border Reiver is that of a man sitting on a
horse, leaning on a spear with his shoulder which is pinning an
enemy messenger to the ground through the neck, while the rider *reads*
the message he was carrying.

Ahh, you had me going there for a minute, till you'd have us believe
that Reivers were literate. Most likely he was holding the paper
thinking "Hey! This'll be better than a clump of grass".

Still, enjoyable read.

John Brandon

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 aug 2007 16:12:47

Peter is not the first to misspell my name. Even DSH has incorrectly
referred to me as Letitia.

I ascribe the error to excessive familiarity with the Roman goddess of
gaiety, Laetitia.

This trivial problem can be avoided by simply calling me:

Tish

I was only smiling to myself that he spent half a day coming up with
those dim Latin jokes (what erudition!), yet could not spell your name
properly.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 16:43:09

Hilarious!

Plant is STILL bollixing the MATH.

A 2% generational FPE rate does NOT give us p = 0.2 but p = .02.

Plant is clearly exposed as an incompetent.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"John Plant" <j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:mailman.1052.1187786006.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

I did not say that the np approximation was always apt; I said it was
not particularly good as soon as I mentioned it for n=25 and p=0.2.
Perhaps you could remind us all of a fuller series expansion of 1-(1-p)^n
if you want an approximation that works better at higher values. My
approximation, which I vaguely remembered, didn't do too badly for p=0.2
and n=25.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 16:45:01

Or, even better, by the name of "her" sock-puppet handler.

DSH

"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:528oc3p1t1nil0kmsurbr55t56ri37qbuu@4ax.com...

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:25:26 -0700, John Brandon
starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quite right, Letitia, although his ignorance of deponent verbs might
occasionally mislead him into an accidentally true expression.

Ignorance of the correct spelling of the name of a correspondent is
usually considered bad form.

Peter is not the first to misspell my name. Even DSH has incorrectly
referred to me as Letitia.

I ascribe the error to excessive familiarity with the Roman goddess of
gaiety, Laetitia.

This trivial problem can be avoided by simply calling me:

Tish

John Briggs

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av John Briggs » 22 aug 2007 17:33:03

Leticia Cluff wrote:
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:25:26 -0700, John Brandon
starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quite right, Letitia, although his ignorance of deponent verbs might
occasionally mislead him into an accidentally true expression.

Ignorance of the correct spelling of the name of a correspondent is
usually considered bad form.

Peter is not the first to misspell my name. Even DSH has incorrectly
referred to me as Letitia.

I ascribe the error to excessive familiarity with the Roman goddess of
gaiety, Laetitia.

Letitia (Laetitia) is the correct Latin form. The English form is Lettice.
--
John Briggs

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 17:45:42

Correct.

"She" doesn't even know how to spell "her" own name correctly.

Sock Puppets often get badly confused about such things.

They forget whom they are playing too -- or to.

Just remember -- there is only one _tit_ in Letitia.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-----------------------------------------

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3zZyi.20536$mZ5.13794@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...

Leticia Cluff wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:25:26 -0700, John Brandon
starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quite right, Letitia, although his ignorance of deponent verbs might
occasionally mislead him into an accidentally true expression.

Ignorance of the correct spelling of the name of a correspondent is
usually considered bad form.

Peter is not the first to misspell my name. Even DSH has incorrectly
referred to me as Letitia.

I ascribe the error to excessive familiarity with the Roman goddess of
gaiety, Laetitia.

Letitia (Laetitia) is the correct Latin form. The English form is
Lettice.
--
John Briggs

Gjest

Re: Re: VIrtual Library Card

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 17:58:11

Once registered, the Library of Virginia assigns a number that you may use to access the collections.
Pat
From: WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com
Date: 2007/08/21 Tue PM 04:00:17 EDT
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: VIrtual Library Card

In a message dated 08/21/07 12:58:48 Pacific Standard Time, LeBateman@att.net writes:
Can someone tell me how a virtual library card can help me gain access to
primary Medieval sources?

-----------------------

I assume what you mean is, there is a physical library somewhere, who gives out library cards to patrons. They are willing to give you a library card *online* so you can view their collection *online*.

Who is the library ?

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John Brandon

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 aug 2007 17:58:51

Just remember -- there is only one _tit_ in Letitia.

Sounds kinda nasty. I'm trying to visualize it.

I wonder if anyone has ever said, "Pish tosh, Tish Cluff"? Lots of
sibilance in that one.

Gjest

Re: Contributions of D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 18:20:05

In a message dated 8/22/2007 8:25:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
caellach@comcast.net writes:

Why is this list not moderated ?


Moderation is Evil.



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Gjest

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 18:26:03

In a message dated 8/22/2007 5:33:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk writes:

I never claimed that it was good for n=50, but just expected
that the extrpolation would fall off gradually for higher n. To my mind,
you just seem to have introduced a higher value of n while keeping to the
first-order approximation to score a cheap point,


-------------
You refuse to admit you made a mistake. And that we caught it and it flew
in your face.
Using inappropriate, third-grade math that just happens to get a close
number doesn't make it "apt" all of the sudden. The random chance that the result
is *close* (in your opinion) doesn't change the fact that you, claiming to
be a physicist with innumerable papers published, should make such an enormous
error as considering statistical mathematics to be similar to arithmetic.

You and I both know, that statistics are a foundational element in modern
quantum mechanics. I have yet to hear any explanation of why you made such a
gross mistake here. Since you should know this math.

And your constant whining about not wanting to own your error doesn't
impress anyone.

Will





************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Gjest

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 18:34:04

One more thing, as I tend to react too quickly and hadn't read the part
where you play Charlie Brown "Why's everybody always pickin on me?"

If you Mr Plant would simply say, "My math was wrong for this sort of case,
and the math I used has nothing to do with this sort of case." and then MOVE
ON, this conversation would be over.

But you don't, you constantly want to claim that it was *close*,
*approximate*, *apt* and other similar words, when it wasn't.

I could ride in a grocery-cart, to work down the highway, as its similar to
a car. A grocery-cart (I think these are called trolleys in England) has
wheels, you can steer it sort of, it has a place to sit or crouch anyway...

But I'd still get a ticket or arrested for being on the highway riding one
of these things. Or for that matter a bicycle, a scooter, a skateboard.
These all have wheels. The mere fact that your type of math uses numbers and can
be *summed* doesn't make it appropriate, apt, close, or anything-at-all to
statistics.

Just admit it, and move on. And stop trying to C.Y.A. because that approach
will never pass.

Will Johnson



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 19:34:58

George Tenet worked as a busboy in his family's diner in Queens, New York
(later renamed the Scobee Diner).

He was an obsequious toady from a very early age -- but a street-smart,
conniving and clever one.

Tenet was also eminently politically correct as a multi-ethnic [Greek,
Albanian], had the requisite Congressional "oversight" experience and
connections to be a good toady to Congress critters and was pock-marked --
so he had "overcome a physical disability".

He had ALL the right qualifications -- EXCEPT the extensive field
intelligence experience to make him a competent DCI.

George Tenet had zip point zero military or intelligence field collection or
even analytical experience.

Then people wonder why we didn't prevent the 9/11 Attack.

Naïveté Writ Large.

A Common Human Trait among The Poguenoscenti.

But the blame cannot ALL be put on Tenet.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Exitus Acta Probat
--------------------------------------

There is some Truth to that.

Tenet is that rarest of beasts a bipartisan toady, obsequious to both
parties.

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 20:41:04

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 01:40:13 Pacific Standard Time, p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

"Item xxiii. die Aprilis dominus noster rex apud Westmonasterium fecit
solemnes immo sumptuosas exequias pro sorore sua Matilda comitissa sancti
Pauli in cereis et luminaribus circa feretrum illius, in pannis nigris ac
aureis ac pauperum distributione". >>

-----------------------------------
I refuse to allow Douglas to translate the above Latin until I have translated it from Spanish, the only language in which I had ever had instruction.

So with my Spanish knowledge the above says
Um.....let's see. April... lord our King apud? (what's that) blah blah solemized? uh... sumptuous something FOR [his] sister "who was?" Matilda Countess [of] Saint Pol um.. um... luminary ? something something ok I don't know what I'm talking about.

Pannis nigris sounds like black bread :)
Pauperum distibutione something about distributing something to paupers ?

Will Johnson

Dave

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Dave » 22 aug 2007 20:48:07

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:28:26 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca>
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:03:28 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:14:21 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:39:07 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:38:15 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:35:46 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:16:24 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

Several posters in SCS are descended from the Border Reivers
(Raiders), myself included.

Your mother certainly put it about a bit. If it's not border reivers
it's Bonnie Prince whatsit or Robert the Bruce.

I think you're confusing my mother with your daughter, the wee hoor
who works the sailors down at the docks for five bucks a shot to pay
for her crack habit.


But is she related to William Wallace?

I have no idea who your daughter is related to.

Anglotrash is not my scene.

Funny that since you seem to be related to every other Scottish
historical figure. But as William Wallace supposedly didn't have any
surviving children I guess you must be descended from his idiot
brother. The one they don't like to talk about.

Ach, I can hardly cope with all the clumsy attempts at wit!

I'll bet they think you're "a real card" at your local boozer, down
there in the Great British Slum - England.

Away home your fatherless bastard. God curse you in all your
undertakings and guide your feet to the cliff edge - and over it!

Struck a nerve then? I'll bet you have more English blood in you than
I do after what the redcoats did to your great great grandmother.

Your Scottish lairds did a good job when they cleared the land for
more intelligent life.

Michael Kohn

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 946

Legg inn av Michael Kohn » 22 aug 2007 20:57:03

7. Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet (Doug McDonald)

McDonald is correct - talk to any counter-intelligence professional and they tell of their disdain for how Clinton and his crew refused to allow information cross sharing which directly led to the 9-11 attacks. Additionally, Clinton declined twice to take Bin Laden into custody in the 1990s when he was offered up by a foreign government - with Clinton stating 'what would I do with him?' And referred to the risk to the country if he took him into custody for the previous attacks against US persons. Clinton, Tenent, Janet the lumber-jack Attorney General, et al were the ones responsible for 9-11 and the the facts show Bush did not.

Gjest

Re: The le Brun family of Bothel & Torpenhow in Cumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 21:18:05

Tim,

From the last lines of your post, could you confirm that Margaret and Elena
are the coheirs of Sir Robert le Brun, Knt. (b: 1283, d: bef. 1342),

presumably Sir Robert's son, Richard dvp and sp.


From the following the above Sir Robert had a brother Richard le Broun, but
I find no further mention of him


Reference: DMH 10/2/35
Quitclaim by Anthony de Lucy lord of Caldebeck to John bishop of Karliol of
all his right in the advowson of the church of Caldebeck; Creation dates: 6
January 1316/17
Scope and Content
Witnesses: John de Castre, sheriff of Cumberland, Richard of Kirkebride,
William of Mulecastre, Alexander of Bastenthweyt and Robert of Bampton, knights,
Robert le Broun, Richard le Broun, his brother, John of Orreton, John de
Boyvill, William of Osemundrelaw, William le Blount, At Karliol
Seal: Anthony de Lucy. Three luces, hauriant.
PRO; A2A; Cumbria Record Office, Carlisle Headquarters: Mounsey-Heysham
Family


There are a number of deeds for which Robert le Brun and John of Orreton are
co-witnesses, an in fact they were fellow MPs for Cumberland in 1326/7

I have found the following Bruns returned to Parliament for Cumberland

A Ricardus le Brun (with Alexander de Bastenthueit represented the County of
Cumberland for the Parliament at Northampton on 13 October 1307. Robertus
le Brune and Johannes de Skelton for the Parliament of 1316; Alexander de
Bastenthweyt and Robertus le Broun at Westminster, 1320. Robertus le Brun and
Johnannes de Orreton at Westminster for 1326/7; Willielmus Broun and Thomas de
Fresington for Carlise City at Northampton 26 July 1338; (Checked to 1400)
(Members of Parliament 1213-1874; Ordered by The House of Commons, to be
Printed 1 March 1878)


In secondary sources I have seen it claimed that the Browne's Viscounts
Montague descend from an MP for Cumberland and I think it is shown as such in one
or more visitations, but has been shown to be erroneous. e. g:-

In the middle of the fourteenth century Anthony Browne (the younger son of
Robert Browne or le Broun, who represented Cumberland in Parliament) settled in
London and in time became a rich merchant. He was created a Knight of the
Bath at the coronation of Richard the Second, for he had lent a large sum of
money to the King and had been generous enough to cancel the bond. This
Anthony Browne left two sons, Sir Robert and Sir Stephen.
(Cowdray The History of a Great English House by Mrs. Charles Roundell 1884.
p 11)

Regards,
Adrian




In a message dated 18/08/2007 21:29:01 GMT Standard Time, inver1000@yahoo.ca
writes:

In closing, would anyone have other source documentation which may help
confirm or reject the placement of the said unknown Patric(k) Bruns and/or
Richard (le) Brun(e) within this family?

Through the last le Brun co-heiress, Margaret and Elena, this le Brun family
would be, I believe, ancestors of the Curwens of Workington, and Haringtons
of Farleton.


Thanks,

Timothy J. Cartmell

Leticia Cluff

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 22 aug 2007 21:20:33

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 16:33:03 GMT, "John Briggs"
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Leticia Cluff wrote:
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:25:26 -0700, John Brandon
starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quite right, Letitia, although his ignorance of deponent verbs might
occasionally mislead him into an accidentally true expression.

Ignorance of the correct spelling of the name of a correspondent is
usually considered bad form.

Peter is not the first to misspell my name. Even DSH has incorrectly
referred to me as Letitia.

I ascribe the error to excessive familiarity with the Roman goddess of
gaiety, Laetitia.

Letitia (Laetitia) is the correct Latin form. The English form is Lettice.

I would amend your
The English form is Lettice
to
An English form is Lettice

I am eternally grateful that my mother chose another English form.

Tish

Leticia Cluff

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 22 aug 2007 21:20:34

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:58:51 -0700, John Brandon,
President of the DSH Fan Club, <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Just remember -- there is only one _tit_ in Letitia.

Sounds kinda nasty. I'm trying to visualize it.


Gentlemen, with this sudden lurid interest in my bust, I think I'd
better divert your attention to this:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Bus ... eticia.jpg


I wonder if anyone has ever said, "Pish tosh, Tish Cluff"? Lots of
sibilance in that one.

No, you're definitely the first to say that to me.
Was it good for you too?

Tish

Leticia Cluff

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 22 aug 2007 21:20:34

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:20:03 -0700, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 08/21/07 23:35:40 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Actually Waleran de Luxembourg's first
wife was Maud de Holand, Lady Courtenay, and they were married at
Windsor, Berkshire in England in Easter week, 1380.

--------------
How does one calculate when Easter Week in 1380 exactly was ?
I'm interested in narrowing the marriage date done to this seven-day period.

Try this:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/easter/eas ... ulator.htm
Click on Easter/Passover Calculator to the left, then
Easter Sunday and Jewish Passover Calculator in the frame.

Tish

Leticia Cluff

David S. Hines, Ancestor Guilty of Forgery?

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 22 aug 2007 21:21:16

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:45:01 +1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<panther@excelsior.com> top-posted:

"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:528oc3p1t1nil0kmsurbr55t56ri37qbuu@4ax.com...

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:25:26 -0700, John Brandon
starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quite right, Letitia, although his ignorance of deponent verbs might
occasionally mislead him into an accidentally true expression.

Ignorance of the correct spelling of the name of a correspondent is
usually considered bad form.

Peter is not the first to misspell my name. Even DSH has incorrectly
referred to me as Letitia.

I ascribe the error to excessive familiarity with the Roman goddess of
gaiety, Laetitia.

This trivial problem can be avoided by simply calling me:

Tish

Or, even better, by the name of "her" sock-puppet handler.

DSH


That's one of your favorite fantasies, isn't it?

Meanwhile, back in the lreal world, I have been browsing in Google
Books and come up with the following interesting source document which
may be of certain genealogical interest:


"A PROCLAMATION.
STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA.

By his Excellency JAMES HAMILTON, Jun., Governor and
Commander-in-Chief in and over the State aforesaid.
To all to whom these presents shall come.

WHEREAS, information has been received by this De-
partment, that a certain DAVID S. HINES, has been
guilty of a flagrant act of Forgery in the city of Charleston,
in the state aforesaid, and has resisted by force of arms the
service of a Bench Warrant issued against him; and
whereas, the said David S. Hines has fled from the pursuit
of public justice.

Now, know ye, that I, the said JAMES HAMILTON, Jun.,
have thought fit to offer, and by these presents do offer a
reward of Three Hundred Dollars, for the apprehension
and delivery of the said fugitive to any of the Sheriffs or
Gaolors of this state.

The said David S. Hines is represented to be small in
stature, and of a pale complexion; remarkably youthful in
his appearance, and with but little beard; dressed in a
short brown coat, drab pantaloons, and a leather cap.
When last seen he rode a fine bay mare, of great fleetness;
and it is supposed he will make his way either to Georgia
or the Mississippi. He is represented to be well known in
the Parishes of St. Stephen's and St. James, Santee, in
which latter parish he was last pursued; and it is surmised
that he may be still lurking in that neighborhood.

Given under my hand, and the Seal of the state, at
Charleston, this fourteenth day of May, in the year
of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty-
one, and in the fifty-fifth year of the Independence of
the United States of America.

JAMES HAMILTON, Jun.
By the Governor.
JOHN N. BARRILLON,
Dep. Secretary of State."

Mons parturiens, nascitur mus!!!


View the original--complete with that lovely Latin tag--at
http://tinyurl.com/2sfawv


Tish

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt.,and Wale

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 21:29:34

Try this:

<http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/easter/easter_text2a.htm>

DSH
--------------------------------------

"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1081.1187810452.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 08/21/07 23:35:40 Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Actually Waleran de Luxembourg's first
wife was Maud de Holand, Lady Courtenay, and they were married at
Windsor, Berkshire in England in Easter week, 1380.

--------------
How does one calculate when Easter Week in 1380 exactly was ?
I'm interested in narrowing the marriage date done to this seven-day
period.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: STAWELL/STOWELL COTHELSTONE

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 22:30:37

On Aug 22, 11:20 pm, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:
Arthur,
There is a fairly extensive pedigree of the Stowell family of
Cothelstone, Somerset in the 1623 Visitation of Somerset, pages 106-107.

There is reference in CP Vol XIIA (under Stawell) and further
references in the footnotes there.

The Falaise Roll and the Battle Abbey Roll are not worthwhile
sources.

I fear that your pedigrees of 3000 years will not stand up under
close scrutiny. There are plenty of members of this group who will gladly
show you where they break down. Of course, if they do stand up, we will all
be delighted!

Hope this helps. Try to ignore our flame wars - there are some very
erudite people here.

Best,
Ken

On 19/8/07 10:37, "gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com"

gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
From: arth...@alphalink.com.au
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:41:22 -0700
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Somerset land grants by William

G'day Folks,
This is my first post to this group. I have a problem which I hope
that someone can resolve.

I am descended from the Stawell family. Oral tradition, plus
information that I located on a Web Site dealing with Somerset,
suggest that the earliest person of the family who has been
identified, is an Adam De Coveston, who supposedly was granted land
by William the Conqueror. I emailed to the contact person on that site
and have received no reply and the information appears to have been
removed. This suggests to me that they had picked up on some fairy
tale that they were unable to verify.

I have copies of the Falaise Roll and the Battle Abbey Roll and have
identified 3 people with the given name Adam, who appear in both
rolls. I have read the text associated with all three, in the Falaise
Roll and none of them appear to be associated with Somerset.

I have two copies of the Domesday Book and neither of them identify an
Adam associated with Stawell. I cannot remember, off the top of my
head, whether I have identified Coveston (or Cothelston, or any other
variation in spelling). in either version. One version (the Penquin
translation) is organised by name within each county. The other
version is a single volume version which is organised by location
name, within each county.

Does anyone have any knowledge of this Adam De Coveston or can you
point me to any readily available source where I can identify who he
was, so that I can extend the lineage further back. I have several
lines going back 3000 years and feel that he must tie in to at least
one of them.

Sorry that this first foray into this list is so long. I offer
sincere thanks to anyone who may be able to provide information to
resolve this dilemma.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue
Melbourne,
Victoria,
Australia.

G'day Ken,
I will see whether I can locate a copy of that 1623 Visitation of
Somerset and have a look at that pedigree. Such resources as pretty
thin on the ground in Australia - and it is a pretty big place to try
to get copies from other locations.

Many thanks for your input. No doubt you have seen my discussion of my
methods and sources. If what I have has been garnered from incorrect
sources, while not condoning the propagation of incorrect information,
then I am in good company.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 22:31:00

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 13:35:42 Pacific Standard Time, panther@excelsior.com writes:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/easter/easter_text2a.htm>>

----------
Thanks Hines.
This link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

tells us *obliquely* that Easter Week starts on Easter Sunday. (I've never heard the expression Easter Week before.)

The calculator says Easter Sunday in 1380 was on 25 March.
So Easter Week would be 25 March until 1 April

Hope that's correct.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 22:35:29

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 11:45:36 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<snip>
Finally, the following source states that Bonne de Bar died in 1436,
when she was succeeded at Dun by [her great-nephew] Rene d'Anjou:

Société des naturalistes et archéologues du nord de la Meuse, 12
(1900): 10.

The above reference can be found online at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vfEDAA ... e+Bar+1436

<xnip>>>
----------------------
I thought we had learnt before in this thread that Bonne was "succeeded at Nogent by her *brother* Louis"

So how is she being succeeded at Dun by her great-nephew Rene ?
Shouldn't Louis absorb all her properties ?

Will

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 22:37:23

Great-nephew ? I'm not showing that connection between them.
Could you elaborate



In a message dated 08/22/07 11:45:36 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Finally, the following source states that Bonne de Bar died in 1436,
when she was succeeded at Dun by [her great-nephew] Rene d'Anjou:

WJhonson

Re: Sounde of Cheshire

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 22:41:53

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 14:24:57 Pacific Standard Time, allenk@pacbell.net writes:
Joan Sounde married Thomas Noel of Hilcote in the late
14th cent. >>
---------------
What's the source that such a marriage occurred?
Thanks
Will

WJhonson

Re: STAWELL/STOWELL COTHELSTONE

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 22:44:21

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 14:35:22 Pacific Standard Time, arthuri@alphalink.com.au writes:
If what I have has been garnered from incorrect
sources, while not condoning the propagation of incorrect information,
then I am in good company. >>

---------------------

It was "good" company in the 17th century.
Today it's "bad" company. We simply do not do genealogy in that fashion any longer.

Will

WJhonson

Re: The le Brun family of Bothel & Torpenhow in Cumberland

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 22:53:30

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 12:17:10 Pacific Standard Time, ADRIANCHANNING02 writes:
In secondary sources I have seen it claimed that the Browne's Viscounts
Montague descend from an MP for Cumberland and I think it is shown as such in one
or more visitations, but has been shown to be erroneous>>
--------------
Thomas Browne of Beechwood Castle was an adult by 1428 when Edward Guildford released to feoffees the Manor of Eygthorne to the use of Thomas Browne.

He was a grocer and citizen of London who slowly rose in power as a wool merchant evidently, and became MP for Kent by 1439-40. Eventually tried and beheaded for treason Jul 1460

I have yet to see any firm documentation on who his ancestors may have been. I have a Sir Richard Browne Knt with no source and so probably comes from a database I suspect, until I can find something useful.

Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt.,and Wale

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 22:55:51

No.

(I've never heard the expression Easter Week before.)

It's a very common expression.

Think about it and Google.

DSH

"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1090.1187818312.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

In a message dated 08/22/07 13:35:42 Pacific Standard Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/easter/easter_text2a.htm

----------
Thanks Hines.
This link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

tells us *obliquely* that Easter Week starts on Easter Sunday. (I've
never heard the expression Easter Week before.)

The calculator says Easter Sunday in 1380 was on 25 March.
So Easter Week would be 25 March until 1 April

Hope that's correct.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Sounde of Cheshire

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 22:56:28

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 14:52:26 Pacific Standard Time, allenk@pacbell.net writes:
A 1999 post from Robert O'Connor to this group He
cited Nichol's Leics. iii:254 and WSAS iii:117. I am
not sure what WSAS is, at this moment. >>

--------------
I don't know what WSAS is either, but here is something that may help

(Collections for a History of Staffordshire (WSAS xvii, 1896) pp. 248-50), and possibly with the Master N., can. of Wolverhampton, who occ. c. 1203 (The Later Letters of Peter of Blois, ed. E. Revell (British Academy, 1993) no. 4). He may also be the Nicholas who succeeded Peter of Blois as dean of Wolverhampton after 1203 (Collections for a History of Staffordshire (WSAS iii, 1882) 14, 118, 126 and ibid. ix/I (1888) 53).

From: 'Canons whose prebends cannot be identified', Fasti Ecclesiae Anglicanae 1066-1300: volume 8: Hereford (2002), pp. 61-98. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=34457. Date accessed: 22 August 2007.

Leo van de Pas

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 22 aug 2007 23:00:36

Richardson has the correct connection.

Bonne's sister Yolande/Violante is mother of Yolanda of Aragon the mother of
Rene d'Anjou

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt.,and Waleran de
Luxembourg, Count of Ligny & St.-Pol


Great-nephew ? I'm not showing that connection between them.
Could you elaborate



In a message dated 08/22/07 11:45:36 Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Finally, the following source states that Bonne de Bar died in 1436,
when she was succeeded at Dun by [her great-nephew] Rene d'Anjou:

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Sounde of Cheshire

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 23:06:42

On 22 Aug., 22:56, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/22/07 14:52:26 Pacific Standard Time, all...@pacbell.net writes:
A 1999 post from Robert O'Connor to this group He
cited Nichol's Leics. iii:254 and WSAS iii:117. I am
not sure what WSAS is, at this moment.

--------------
I don't know what WSAS is either, but here is something that may help

William Salt Archaeological Society, I believe; it had a Staffordshire
focus.

Cheers, Michael

Gjest

Re: STAWELL/STOWELL COTHELSTONE

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 aug 2007 23:18:39

On 22 Aug., 22:30, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:
On Aug 22, 11:20 pm, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:





Arthur,
There is a fairly extensive pedigree of the Stowell family of
Cothelstone, Somerset in the 1623 Visitation of Somerset, pages 106-107.

There is reference in CP Vol XIIA (under Stawell) and further
references in the footnotes there.

The Falaise Roll and the Battle Abbey Roll are not worthwhile
sources.

I fear that your pedigrees of 3000 years will not stand up under
close scrutiny. There are plenty of members of this group who will gladly
show you where they break down. Of course, if they do stand up, we will all
be delighted!

Hope this helps. Try to ignore our flame wars - there are some very
erudite people here.

Best,
Ken

On 19/8/07 10:37, "gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com"

gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
From: arth...@alphalink.com.au
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:41:22 -0700
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Somerset land grants by William

G'day Folks,
This is my first post to this group. I have a problem which I hope
that someone can resolve.

I am descended from the Stawell family. Oral tradition, plus
information that I located on a Web Site dealing with Somerset,
suggest that the earliest person of the family who has been
identified, is an Adam De Coveston, who supposedly was granted land
by William the Conqueror. I emailed to the contact person on that site
and have received no reply and the information appears to have been
removed. This suggests to me that they had picked up on some fairy
tale that they were unable to verify.

I have copies of the Falaise Roll and the Battle Abbey Roll and have
identified 3 people with the given name Adam, who appear in both
rolls. I have read the text associated with all three, in the Falaise
Roll and none of them appear to be associated with Somerset.

I have two copies of the Domesday Book and neither of them identify an
Adam associated with Stawell. I cannot remember, off the top of my
head, whether I have identified Coveston (or Cothelston, or any other
variation in spelling). in either version. One version (the Penquin
translation) is organised by name within each county. The other
version is a single volume version which is organised by location
name, within each county.

Does anyone have any knowledge of this Adam De Coveston or can you
point me to any readily available source where I can identify who he
was, so that I can extend the lineage further back. I have several
lines going back 3000 years and feel that he must tie in to at least
one of them.

Sorry that this first foray into this list is so long. I offer
sincere thanks to anyone who may be able to provide information to
resolve this dilemma.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue
Melbourne,
Victoria,
Australia.

G'day Ken,
I will see whether I can locate a copy of that 1623 Visitation of
Somerset and have a look at that pedigree. Such resources as pretty
thin on the ground in Australia - and it is a pretty big place to try
to get copies from other locations.

It's online here:

http://www.ukgenealogyarchives.org.uk/c ... set%201623

MAR

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt.,and Wale

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 22 aug 2007 23:18:40

Grandnephew is a much more coherent and appropriate term for this
relationship.

DSH
-------------------------------

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.1100.1187820090.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Richardson has the correct connection.

Bonne's sister Yolande/Violante is mother of Yolanda of Aragon the mother
of Rene d'Anjou

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt.,and Waleran
de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny & St.-Pol

Great-nephew ? I'm not showing that connection between them.
Could you elaborate

In a message dated 08/22/07 11:45:36 Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
Finally, the following source states that Bonne de Bar died in 1436,
when she was succeeded at Dun by [her great-nephew] Rene d'Anjou

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av WJhonson » 22 aug 2007 23:29:53

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 15:00:56 Pacific Standard Time, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
Bonne's sister Yolande/Violante is mother of Yolanda of Aragon the mother of
Rene d'Anjou >>

-----------------------
My source differs.
Heraldry shows both wives for John, King of Aragon (from 1387), but states that by his FIRST wife Martha who died 1380 and who was d of John I, Count of Armagnac he had this Yolante born in 1380 who marries Louis II, titular King of Naples. They marry in 1400, he dies in 1417, she dies in
1443

By John's *second* wife Yolante d of Robert Duke of Bar, they state that this marriage occurred in 1384, that John died in 1395 and that Yolante died in 1431 and show no children.

Will

Kay Allen

Re: Sounde of Cheshire

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 23 aug 2007 00:21:03

A 1999 post from Robert O'Connor to this group He
cited Nichol's Leics. iii:254 and WSAS iii:117. I am
not sure what WSAS is, at this moment.

K
--- WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 08/22/07 14:24:57 Pacific
Standard Time, allenk@pacbell.net writes:
Joan Sounde married Thomas Noel of Hilcote in the
late
14th cent.
---------------
What's the source that such a marriage occurred?
Thanks
Will

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email
to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word
'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 00:25:25

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 11:51:10 Pacific Standard Time, clivewest@ukonline.co.uk writes:
"Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd>>
-------------------
I'd like the opinion of the prosopographers (or however you spell it) that the names Algid and Aldgyth are the same.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 00:31:28

I know that Terry Booth has been making an in-depth study of the references to this purported family-group from Domesday.

If the heir truly only got one piece of land, it would seem poor results from such an apparently immensely wealthy heiress. In fact, if it can be shown that the land dwindled down to almost naught it would seem to argue *against* the connection rather then for it.

Although with all the tumult going on, not even that logic is secure. In addition, we must keep in mind, that even chroniclers can create relationships by working backward. So if I say so-and-so is my brother-in-law, and you know my wife's name, you might assume that my wife is his sister, when in reality, my sister is his wife; OR you heard me wrong.

Let's not forget that Orderic called Godiva Aelfgar's *wife* not his mother.

Will

Gjest

Re: The le Brun family of Bothel & Torpenhow in Cumberland

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 aug 2007 00:51:03

In a message dated 22/08/2007 22:54:27 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 12:17:10 Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING02 writes:
In secondary sources I have seen it claimed that the Browne's Viscounts
Montague descend from an MP for Cumberland and I think it is shown as such
in one
or more visitations, but has been shown to be erroneous>>
--------------
Thomas Browne of Beechwood Castle was an adult by 1428 when Edward Guildford
released to feoffees the Manor of Eygthorne to the use of Thomas Browne.

He was a grocer and citizen of London who slowly rose in power as a wool
merchant evidently, and became MP for Kent by 1439-40. Eventually tried and
beheaded for treason Jul 1460

I have yet to see any firm documentation on who his ancestors may have been..
I have a Sir Richard Browne Knt with no source and so probably comes from a
database I suspect, until I can find something useful.

Will Johnson



====


Will,

Thanks for your post. Nor have I found firm documentation of his father,
but must have been in good standing to obtain the Fitz-Alan spouse. I think it
is the Essex Visitation is the one which makes the connection to the
Cumberland Brun, but there are then intervening generations which are clearly
bollixed.

Although he was executed for high treason, he was in fact a victim of the
War of the Roses. Here is a summary of my researches, including a short bit
on the circumstances of his death.

Adrian

Grocer, citizen of London, but acquired properties in Kent; comptroller of
the household
1428 Edward Guildford released to Walter Hungerford, William Darel, Thomas
Browne, and John Forescue the Manor of Eygthorne, to the use of Thomas Browne
1431 [067 has 1434] Married Eleanor d&h of Sir Thomas Fitz‑Alan of
Beechworth/Betchworth Castle, (the br of John, Earl of Arundel) and had issue.
1433, July 11 Perhaps the Thomas Broun who was, with others, ordered to
sell the wine and merchandise taken of the captured Spanish ship Manequeneth
1434 June 8 With others, given a commission to muster men at arms at Dover..
1434 July 12 With others, given a commission to muster men at arms at Dover.
1434-35 Acquired Harbledowne, Tennington, and West Bere, Kent from John
Fogge
1435 March 30 Perhaps the Thomas Broune merchant to ship wool to Calais
for the king
1437, Oct 10 J ustice
1437 Nov 27 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1438 Feb 12 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1438 May 12 Pardon with John Broun and four others after entering 100 acres
in Parish of la Rivere by Dover bought from Thomas Thorold and entering it
without licence.
1438 May 26 Comm re inquisition into the state of Newenton by Hethe, etc
1438 Dec 12 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1439 Mar 19 One of the commissioners for Kent to raise a loan for the king..
1439-40 MP for Kent
1440 July 24 Licence to sell wool abroad, in consideration of his recent
misfortunes and impoverishments in Kent
1440 Aug 18 Licence for life to trade over-seas
1442 Feb 5 Held 100 acres in Couperlond, Ryver by Dover
1442 Mar 30 Comm to raise loan for king in Kent
1443 Feb 16 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1443 Mar 18 Acquired the marriage and wardship of John s&h of Thomas Torell
(Tyrell*) of Shelley/Shellow, Bowells, Ongar, Essex
1443 May 8 Comm to make inquisition in Kent
1443-44 Sheriff of Kent
1444 July 11 Acquired, with others, marriage of Robert s&h of Robert Kirkham
1445 Acquired West Bere from John Scott
1445 Oct 8 Licence to trade with aliens etc
1445-46 MP for Kent
1446 June 1 Comm to raise loan in Kent for king
1446 Dec Exchequer clerk
1447 c. Feb Under treasurer of the exchequer
1447 Feb 8 Granted stewardship of lordships of Mylton and Merden Kent after
death of Dk of Gloucester (who d 23 Feb 1446/7, whilst under arrest)
1447 July 18 Appointed under-treasurer of the exchequer
1449 July 8 Granted right to hold annual fairs at Eythorne, Kent;
Kyngesnede, Kent; Swanscombe, Kent; Wymblyngweld, Kent; Tong, Kent; Betchworth, Surrey
1449 July 12 Granted exemption from assizes etc.
1449 Sep 25 Comm to raise a loan for the king in Kent
Parl. of Nov 1449The staplers of Calais continued their campaign against the
hated licences to bypass Calais in o/seas trade, and Henry VI reluctantly
agreed to annul all but those granted to the queen, Suffolk, Thomas Walsingham,
Thomas Browne, John Pennington, (these last 3 were members of the royal
household) and the prior of Bridlington
1450 Slandered by the populace
Jul 1453 July Admitted to the council
July 1453 Joined the council of Hy VI, which also included Sir Thomas
Tyrell, Whittingham and Thorp
1458 On commission at Rochester to inquire into the quarrel between Richard
Nevill Er of Warwick and the citizens of Lubeck
1458 Ganted (Royal?) Swanscombe manor, plus grant of a fair, Kent but soon
afterwards it returned to Dk of York.
1459 June 1x 1461 July 20 Thomas’ wife Eleanor was devised, Manors of
Pluckley and Waldershare (Waldeshare) in Tenterton/Tenderden from Joan Knowght,
(-Will 1 June 1459} g-dau and heir of Richard Malmayn and dau of Henry Knowght.
Eleanor is incorrectly called a widow.
1459 c.Dec Granted Swanscombe manor
1460 Sheriff of Kent
c1460 At latter end of Hy VI Browne acquired Caldham/Coldham, and Hoptons
manor. Alkham and Morehall manor, Cheriton all of, or near Folkestone. From
Robert Brandred and Morris-court, Bapchild (which may have been acquired by the
Brownes before 1412); Tong manor (royal grant?); and Eythorne manor (050
states this was acquired 7 Hy VI, 1428-9) acquired from Sir Walter Hungerford
and Batfriston manor, Wyborne's estate acquired from John de Monyngham; manor
of Hartangre, Barson parish; Land called `Walsted' and `Huddes' at Lindfield,
Sussex. For Betchworth and land in Surrey see ipm, Dorking and for London
the inquisition both below.
Jul 1460 Temp bat of Northampton, the Lancastrians held up in the Tower of
London were Lords Scales (Thomas de Scales k 25 Jul 1460 attempting to escape
from tower), Moleyns (Robert Hungerford who m Eleanor d&h of Wm de Moleyns,
escaped from the Tower but bhd 18 May 1464), Lovel (John Lovel, released, d
1464/5), Vesci (Henry Bromflete, released from Tower; d 1468/9), and De la
Warr (Richard West, released from Tower, d. 1475/6), as well as household
figures like Sir Edmund Hampden, Sir Thomas Browne, Sir Gervase Clifton, and Sir
Thomas Tyrell. The Tower, besieged by Ld Cobham and the sheriffs, surrendered
on 19 July, and in the last week of July a Sir Thomas Browne with at least 6
others were condemned and beheaded at Tyburn
20 July 1460 Tried and convicted of high treason, beheaded and attainted
c1461 His widow m2 Thomas Vaughan of Tretower, Wales, later KB.
28 May 1476 ipm at Dorking

WJhonson

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 01:10:28

Rear Admiral Wellington T Hines (1907-94)

Very interesting name.

Just the right combination of uniqueness and ease of spelling to make him easy to research.
----------------------

In a message dated 08/22/07 05:40:29 Pacific Standard Time, jacklinthicum@earthlink.net writes:

His father was a superman, but military service took him away from the
family during the war and after. Wellington went to college for high
school, graduated from the USNA, learned to fly, served heroically in
WWII, part of the Manhattan Project, administered missile production
for the Navy, NATO staff, served on the predecessor to NASA. You know
average guy, the son couldn't live up to without the crutch of having
"great ancestors". 35th cousins and 18th grandfathers all meticulously
carved out by the kind of geneaologists that can find royal blood in a
drunken homeless person.


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John Watson

Re: Sounde of Cheshire

Legg inn av John Watson » 23 aug 2007 01:16:59

On Aug 23, 5:56 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/22/07 14:52:26 Pacific Standard Time, all...@pacbell.net writes:
A 1999 post from Robert O'Connor to this group He
cited Nichol's Leics. iii:254 and WSAS iii:117. I am
not sure what WSAS is, at this moment.

--------------
I don't know what WSAS is either, but here is something that may help

(Collections for a History of Staffordshire (WSAS xvii, 1896) pp. 248-50), and possibly with the Master N., can. of Wolverhampton, who occ. c. 1203 (The Later Letters of Peter of Blois, ed. E. Revell (British Academy, 1993) no. 4). He may also be the Nicholas who succeeded Peter of Blois as dean of Wolverhampton after 1203 (Collections for a History of Staffordshire (WSAS iii, 1882) 14, 118, 126 and ibid. ix/I (1888) 53).

From: 'Canons whose prebends cannot be identified', Fasti Ecclesiae Anglicanae 1066-1300: volume 8: Hereford (2002), pp. 61-98. URL:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=34457. Date accessed: 22 August 2007.

Hi Will,

Collections for a History of Staffordshire, The William Salt
Archaeological Society, Vol III New Series, London, 1900 is online
here:

http://www.openlibrary.org/details/newc ... 03stafuoft

but I am not sure if this is the volume referred to. There are several
other volumes of this series available at the same site.

Regards,

John

Brad Verity

Re: Contributions of D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 23 aug 2007 01:19:42

From: Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com

So the context appears to have been that Richardson was under scrutiny
from familiar posters in signed posts, and then someone unknown by
name to you interjected, and you leapt to a conclusion that you can't
now back up plausibly but nevertheless "recall"....This on the basis
of your super-acute analysis of language and tone from what you
characterise as mere "taunts" and "insults". Just whose language and
tone did you recognise? And why did you say noting at the time? If I
had a reasonable suspicion, much less a definite knowledge, that
someone was sniping at Richardson under an assumed identity, I would
consider myself dishonest not to point this out. He deserves fair
treatment, no matter how critical, and the newsgroup deserves to know
who is or is not trying to manipulate opinion.

I'd like to add the little that my two cents is worth and agree with Peter
in principle here. There's nothing more frustrating to me on SGM than
someone whom I've kill-filed popping up under a brand new name trying to
disguise himself. I'd like to ask Todd and Don and anyone else familiar
enough with the mechanisms of "sock puppets" that when they in the future
encounter a poster and suspect he/she is a fraudulent identity, to please do
a 'Sock Puppet Alert' for the newsgroup. It would greatly help me, and
perhaps other list members who, like myself, aren't so computer-savvy.

Of course, when the going gets sticky Todd Farmerie gets going.
Nothing new, nothing honourable, just more conceited sniping when it
suits and then a quick retreat into silence when accountability gets
"tedious". Exactly the reasons I left SGM before, when the same from
you was added to repellent sycophancy from Chris Phillips towards
Richardson.

I genuinely mourn the absence of Chris Phillips from SGM, as well as Paul
Reed. I'm glad Vickie Elam White and Kay Allen still post occasionally.
Heated debates on the newsgroup can be exhausting. I know firsthand - I've
had enough of my own with Douglas. And if they become emotional and
personal, I completely understand leaving the newsgroup altogether. Once
that happens, life has a way of taking over and steering one off onto new
pursuits. But I hope that someday both Chris and Paul will come back to
SGM, even if they post only once in awhile like Rosie Bevan.

You are falling into a fallacy that Brandon himself has posted from tody:
my
posts without genealogical substance are not time- or energy-consuming:
from
long practice as a writer I type almost as fast as I think, and I don't
even
think about SGM between viewings of the newsgroup at odd moments when I am
engaged on other work. Whatever crosses my mind when I see a post that I
consider worth a response is what you get, typos, spelling errors and all.
If you don't like it, don't read it. But don't worry yourself about my time
and energy.

Peter is on my list of SGM members whose posts I always try and read. Those
include, in addition to the ones I've mentioned above: Todd Farmerie, Don
Stone, Nat Taylor, Stewart Baldwin, Leo van de Pas, Michael Andrews-Reading,
John Higgins, Will Johnson, Tony Hoskins and Tim Powys-Libbe. And, believe
it or not, Douglas Richardson (if they are about genealogy), as our areas of
research overlap frequently, he does stumble upon useful bits of info
sometimes, and his posturing as some kind of medieval primary source expert
amuses me. The only time I read Spencer Hines's posts is thru Google, and
only if he's responded to a post or thread I've participated in or made.
All his posts in my Inbox are deleted unread. John Brandon I've kill-filed
and fly right by on Google. The only writing of his I see is if someone
whose posts I always open is responding to him.

So I've seen a little of this long back-and-forth between Peter, Brandon and
Spencer Hines, but only Peter's posts, and actually of those, I only read
the most recent one in my Inbox and delete all the earlier ones unread. I'm
glad he gives no thought to SGM once he's sent off his responses, as he in
turn won't mind if I delete most of his non-genealogy posts.

The one thing that might actually achieve a quicker, more unmistakable
result, as I have pointed out several times, is the disproof of Brandon's
other absurd fallacy today, that I might suppose myself a lone saviour of
anything or suffer from a messiah delusion. A few posters unaided cannot
prevent these disordered fools from imagining that they have an
appreciative
audience among the silent majority.

I'm not sure they have an audience at all. If other SGM members like me
have kill-filed them or delete their posts unread, their only audience is
themselves.

The best corrective would be for
EVERYONE who dislikes their posts and despises their attitudes to protest
aloud, by posting a barrage, of explicit criticism or at least support for
it, to show the numbers and virtual unanimity they are up against.

Peter, as far I'm concerned, you're right and I give you credit for trying
the tactic of responding to all of the crap in the hope it will make the
crappers decide to go away. I'm skeptical that it will work, but if it's
not emotionally draining on you, then certainly keep trying.

Half a
dozen (indeed "6 or so") posters are as usual being left to carry the
burden
for a much wider readership,

I wonder, though, just how much wider the readership really is? I'd be
surprised if there as many as 50 individuals who regularly read through SGM,
as opposed to simply surfing through it once in awhile.

while Todd and now you are only trying to
spread some extra blame where it does not belong.

There was a point when Spencer Hines was very anti-Douglas, and it may be
some of the sock puppets attacking Douglas were made then.

Sock Puppet Alert: SGM's current Leticia Cliff would appear to be a
created-persona of Hines (thanks to Will Johnson for catching this), and can
be added to the kill-file for members who already have Hines so filed.

Cheers, ------Brad

_________________________________________________________________
More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/ ... ni_2G_0507

WJhonson

Re: Contributions of D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 01:29:15

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 17:21:13 Pacific Standard Time, royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
I genuinely mourn the absence of Chris Phillips from SGM, as well as Paul
Reed.>>
--------------------------
Somewhere in my foggy memory is a long conversation we had on-list about Chris, fmg, and Medlands. It seems that *this* was directly prior to Chris' vanishing (to never return).

IIRC the issues raised were never addressed adequately although Chris and Mr Cawley have had an extremely long time to do so.

Something about plagarism ?

Will Johnson

Brad Verity

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 23 aug 2007 01:30:38

From: WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com

In a message dated 08/22/07 13:35:42 Pacific Standard Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/easter/easter_text2a.htm

----------
Thanks Hines.

Thanks, Will, for pointing out that 'Leticia Cluff' is Spencer Hines.

Cheers, ----Brad

_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route!
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&s ... ORM=MGAC01

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 23 aug 2007 01:36:07

On Aug 22, 4:25 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/22/07 11:51:10 Pacific Standard Time, clivew...@ukonline.co.uk writes:
"Algid uxor Griffin" (Aldgyth wife of Gruffydd
-------------------
I'd like the opinion of the prosopographers (or however you spell it) that the names Algid and Aldgyth are the same.


Well, -gid and -gyth are the same. Al- in late Old English derived
from a contraction of AEthel-, (as in Almer or Elmer from AEthelmaer)
but it frequently appears in non-native script as a representation of
AElf- or even Ead-, so Eald- would not surprise me. As you can
probably guess, this makes it virtually impossible to figure out what
the true A-S name of someone who only appears in Continental sources,
such as the daughter of Eadweard who was sent to marry "a prince near
the Jupiter Mountains", hard, sometimes, to figure out what the
original form might have been (Agive in the surviving record).

taf

Kay Allen

Re: Sounde of Cheshire

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 23 aug 2007 01:45:05

Which I remembered as I was fixing lunch. :-(

K
--- mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:

On 22 Aug., 22:56, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com
wrote:
In a message dated 08/22/07 14:52:26 Pacific
Standard Time, all...@pacbell.net writes:
A 1999 post from Robert O'Connor to this group He
cited Nichol's Leics. iii:254 and WSAS iii:117. I
am
not sure what WSAS is, at this moment.

--------------
I don't know what WSAS is either, but here is
something that may help

William Salt Archaeological Society, I believe; it
had a Staffordshire
focus.

Cheers, Michael


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WJhonson

Re: Spencer Hines Ancestry

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 01:50:25

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 17:11:51 Pacific Standard Time, WJhonson writes:
Rear Admiral Wellington T Hines (1907-94) >>
---------------------------
It's a start
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... on_T_Hines

I'm fairly sure Wellington will appear in a number of newspapers as well, I just haven't had time to search them yet.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Richard Godive Birth c 1480 IGI Cool site / Brichnod Cob

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 02:00:22

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 17:40:51 Pacific Standard Time, doloresc.phifer@comcast.net writes:
http://www.theweald.org/area.asp?Pid=P8 ... =1&y=2&p=0

Name Date Place Father Mother Source
Lady Ela de Sackville [Dene] Birth 1122 Ralph de Dene Mrs Dene IGI
Other Film and Batch references
Richard Godive Birth c 1480 IGI
Ref: Film 962426 >>

-------------------------------
Hate to bust your bubble but the above citation is faulty.
A *film number* is completely irrelevant without additionally specifying a region

Let's *assume* the author meant to specify "British Isles" and voila we get hundreds of entries in the IGI for this particular film number in the British Isles.

Excellent !!! Now what are they ?
Examining the source data which states "Record submitted by a member of the LDS Church"

I.E. these are worthless. They are utter garbage :)
They are not extracted parish entries, they were all submitted by your crazy aunt Martha who talks to people from Beta Reticuli.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Contributions of D. Spencer Hines

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 23 aug 2007 02:03:49

On Aug 23, 10:29 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 08/22/07 17:21:13 Pacific Standard Time, royaldesc...@hotmail.com writes:
I genuinely mourn the absence of Chris Phillips from SGM, as well as Paul
Reed.
--------------------------
Somewhere in my foggy memory is a long conversation we had on-list about
Chris, fmg, and Medlands. It seems that *this* was directly prior to Chris'
vanishing (to never return).

IIRC the issues raised were never addressed adequately although Chris and Mr
Cawley have had an extremely long time to do so.

Something about plagarism ?

Nothing about plagiarism as far as I can recall - the issue was about
rank incompetence.

After an absence of 7 or 8 months I returned to the newsgroup, most
unexpectedly, in order to support Douglas Richardson against some
unjustified criticism from Chris Phillips and Todd Farmerie over
remarks he had posted about the Medieval Lands database.

The FMG had ignored advice about the scope and value of Cawley's work,
and had indeed associated themselves closely with it (format only, as
later claimed, and not content, although the whole was obviously
presented to the public under their aegis). Chris Phillips puffed the
database to the newsgroup, and refused to acknowledge this or to
retract his endorsement when challenged. He went so far as to assert
that I _must_ be wrong, though he couldn't say how, and that Cawley
_must_ have had reasons different from the absurdly mistaken ones that
I had demonstrated for rank errors on one in particular of three
important points that Cawley himself put forward as his most
outstanding discoveries. (Stewart Baldwin pointed out an equal
absurdity in another of these).

When he was unable to back this up from his own knowledge of the
matters in question, Phillips undertook to check with Cawley and
report back the presumed vindication of his (misplaced) confidence.
SGM has never heard from him since.

Peter Stewart

WJhonson

Re: Spencer Hines Ancestry

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 02:18:17

What's wrong with the name David?
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... recoff=2+3

At first I thought "D Spencer's" first name must be something awful....

Peter Stewart

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 23 aug 2007 02:25:29

On Aug 23, 10:30 am, "Brad Verity" <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com
In a message dated 08/22/07 13:35:42 Pacific Standard Time,
pant...@excelsior.com writes:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/easter/easter_text2a.htm

----------
Thanks Hines.

Thanks, Will, for pointing out that 'Leticia Cluff' is Spencer Hines.

maybe I am missing something, but I can't see any reason to suspect
that Leticia Cluff is not a real person much less that she is a
disguise for DS Hines.

I don't follow SHM or other newsgroups but my impression from
crossposted threads over years has been that this poster is frequently
critical or satirical where Hines is concerned. He doesn't show signs
of having the capacity to send himself up, even under an alias.

The post from Leticia copied below is a recent example, where apart
from anything else she clearly knows more than Hines about Latin.

Peter Stewart

On Aug 22, 12:38 am, Leticia Cluff <leticia.cl...@nospam.gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:29:31 GMT, "Peter Stewart"

p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:xsiyi.65$Jp2.1126@eagle.america.net...
Peter Stewart, our Tasmanian Devil in SGM, obviously has not the slightest
idea of what a Top Banana is.

He needs to do some Basic Research,

Amusing...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Hines has no idea how to compose a simple phrase in Latin. He needs to do
some Basic Learning.

"Top banana" on the other hand indicates the top-billed act in a variaty
show or the leading person in a group. Nothing smart about it, the harping
use of the phrase by Hines is a dead giveaway of his own warped and
frustrated desire to be seen as the most prominent critic of others on
Usenet. But he doesn't cut it, because we all know he is a phoney: he uses
Latin tags to show of an elite education that he demonstrably missed.

For anyone who misssed it in October 2005, when he posted his own undoing in
this aspect of his pretense, I have copied below his post asserting a quite
wrong translation of the Latin term, "non sequitur", AFTER this had been
correctly given by me. Hines is not only unable to read and understand the
simplest Latin text, but he purports to impose his ignorance on everyone
else.

Needless to say, he won't admit the error, despite this being verifiable by
any reader who checks an elementary Latin grammar.

Peter Stewart

From: "D. Spencer Hines" < poguemid...@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: _Non Sequitur_
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:42:23 -0000
References: <Yxa9d.17317$5O5.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au
20041007125319.44745.qm...@web41724.mail.yahoo.com
cMj9d.17653$5O5.8...@news-server.bigpond.net.au
""Sequor" primarily means "to follow", and "sequitur" is the third
person indicative active, present tense, meaning "he/she/it follows"."

Peter Stewart

Actually, Peter, _SEQUITUR_ is third person, indicative, PASSIVE,
present tense -- meaning [literally, among other meanings] "he/she/it is
[is being] followed."

So, NON SEQUITUR literally means -- "it [the logic] is NOT being
followed" -- but your original, correct, "it does not follow" parses
better.

Cheers And Aloha,

Spencer

Thank you for that piece of entertainment, Peter, which deserves pride
of place alongside his "prima nocta" fantasies.

The word "deponent" is obviously not an active component of the
Commander's conceptual world.

Tish

WJhonson

Re: Medlands & Chris Phillips (Was Re: Contributions of D. S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 02:25:32

<<In a message dated 08/22/07 18:08:40 Pacific Standard Time, royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
If you still have issues or questions around Medlands, send an email off to
FMG. >>
----------------------------
Did it, been there.
I already told FMG that Cawley had plagarized some items without citation, from this newsgroup right here. I believe DR for one had found a few of his own connections there stated without citation to him or anyone else for that matter, as if Cawley had done it himself.

The response from the secretary of FMG (so stated in his email) was something like, "well I'll ask Mr Cawley about it."
The response from Chris was something like "tell Mr Cawley".
The response from Cawley was silence.

And I never heard anymore about it.

When someone points out to me that I may have lifted something without citation, I'm happy to fix it. I recognize as does everyone that sometimes in the rush to input data, you may forgot to fully cite where it came from. But so far, the FMG/Medlands approach seems to be "shush don't say anything...."

It's not acceptable.
I also find it very odd that a person who is supposed to have created such a huge and wonderful database should be basically a non-entity. Who is he? Where did he come from? What else did he do? What are his qualifications? He seems to have spontaneously appeared on FMG wholely-formed, and then dropped into a hole.


Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: The Long Knives Are Out For George Tenet

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 23 aug 2007 02:25:39

Recte:

The key points are that we must discriminate on the basis
of likelihood of being a terrorist, spy on possible
terrorists, monitor their communications, etc. This is
being done. And it is critical, absolutely critical, not to impose
artificial barriers on who they spy on.

Doug McDonald

Yep...

Naïve people simply don't understand how difficult it is to change the
course of the American Federal Government.

Change -- in the absence of a triggering catastrophic event such as The
Great Depression, Pearl Harbor and 9/11 attacks or Watergate -- proceeds at
a funereal pace -- and no President can change that fundamental fact of
Washington.

The Founding Fathers WANTED the American Government to be checked and
balanced to equilibrium on many issues -- NOT constantly innovative and
stimulative.

It's written by Mr. Madison into the Constitution.

Further, they never envisioned the United States as Top Nation -- the only
Great Power left in a Multi-Cultural World with over 200 so-called Sovereign
Nations....

Nor can they be expected to have foreseen it.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fahvnd$gvr$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

Cory Bhreckan wrote:


The World Trade Towers were standing on Jan 21. 2001. You can whine and
point all the fingers that you want but it won't change the fact. George
W. Bush and his staff were warned and chose to ignore the warning.

The word you have wrong is "chose". In the early days of the Bush
administration the FBI and the CIA were CONSTRAINED by Clinton's
directives to do the wrong thing and not communicate. They had no
legal choice. True, Bush COULD have acted faster than he did
to correct the situation ... but the situation itself
led to a false complacency. This was a leftover from Clinton.
Remember that Tenet was a Clinton holdover, as were many
other mid-level functionaries.

It would take have taken time to fix the problems, even had
they started out on the front burner on inauguration day. It takes
time to get rid of all the baggage from the old regime.

Note that the Bush administration has been very good at
correcting these problems, post 9/11, despite attacks from people like you
trying to stop them from doing the right thing.

The key points are that we must discriminate on the basis
of likelihood of being a terrorist, spy on possible
terrorists, monitor their communications, etc. This is
being done. And it is critical, absolutely critical, not to impose
artificial barriers on who they spy on.

Doug McDonald

WJhonson

Re: Medlands & Chris Phillips (Was Re: Contributions of D. S

Legg inn av WJhonson » 23 aug 2007 02:29:39

On this archived thread
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... 2c36e13649

one can refresh one's memory on DR's original charge of plagarism against Cawley.

To date I know of no response from Cawley.

Will Johnson

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