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D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 19 aug 2007 18:58:38

"...Richardson maintained Peter Stewart was a homosexual..."

Leo van de Pas -- 15 August 2007
---------------------------------------------

Hmmmmmmmm...

Did Douglas Richardson do that?

If so:

WHEN was THAT and WHAT did he SAY?

Does Leo actually know what he is talking about?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Gjest

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program???

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 19:32:04

Dear Rebecca,
The best free Genealogy databases I can think of are
Rootsweb.com and FamilySearch.org, the latter being the Latter Day Saints`
online repository. You might also tey the GENWeb series for the various states and
Canadian Provinces. Canana`s Provincial Archives are also pretty good. Apart
from which is Genealogics.org, Stewart Baldwin`s Henry Project (ancestry of
Henry II, King of England) also scan through Cyndi`s Lists. there are many good
sites out there.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA



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D. Spencer Hines

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program???

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 19 aug 2007 20:35:35

RootsMagic is also quite open to customer originated recommendations for
improvements.

They have rapidly done so with several of my recommendations -- which are
now incorporated into the program.

"Free" programs don't often offer that advantage.

DSH

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:...

Don't try to be cheap by looking for a "Free Program" that you soon will
be dissatisfied with.

Roots Magic is your best bet. 3.2.4 is the current version.

They even give you a Free Trial.

Here are the details and the pricing:

http://www.rootsmagic.com/demo.htm

Get the RootsMagic book through the mail and you're set to go.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

norenxaq

Re: ? king ?

Legg inn av norenxaq » 19 aug 2007 21:08:07

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/19/2007 12:55:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

The line from Alfred to Woden to Adam comes from the Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle, which was compiled during his reign. It is fiction.



-------------------
Paul can you state what part of the ASC has a line from Adam to Woden?
Thanks
Will Johnson






ASC stops at Woden. Anything before him were later additions

Gjest

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program???

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 21:14:03

In a message dated 8/19/2007 10:31:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Jwc1870@aol.com writes:

The best free Genealogy databases I can think of are
Rootsweb.com and FamilySearch.org,


--------------
I think the poster was asking for a genealogy program they can run on their
own computer. A software program, versus an external, web-located database.

I use PAF, because it's free and I'm cheap.
I don't like that I cannot search by a woman's married name very easily, the
only way being a complete search of the whole database as it's not indexed.

Maiden names are indexed. I could create duplicate entries for each
marriage, but at this point that would be a month long project at least.

I'd also like to search based on property-owned, and based on titles.

The easy way to solve this would be to have a program where you can identify
various fields as indexed and search on any of them, but I don't see the LDS
putting a new version in place. The current PAF has been extant for many
years with no sign of upgrades.

Will Johnson



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Hovite

Re: ? king ?

Legg inn av Hovite » 19 aug 2007 21:34:19

On Aug 19, 9:01 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

Paul can you state what part of the ASC has a line from Adam to Woden?
Thanks
Will Johnson

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL athttp://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

There are several different chronicles collectively called the Anglo-
Saxon Chronicle. In some versions (A, B, C, F) the genealogy is in the
annal for 855, which records the death of Aethelwulf, father of
Aelfred.

Gjest

Re: For Peter Stewart

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 21:48:00

On Aug 19, 10:20 am, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:57 am, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:





Dear Roger,

Speaking for myself, I' have little interest to question, here, about
the quality of "Stewart" contributions.

Me (and much more peoples on this list) are questioning his BEHAVIOR:
his arrogance, pomposity, impoliteness etc. etc that characterize his
replies, and that is undoubtfull.

If you find correct that "Stewart" (or any other) can be free to
systematically treat other peoples like garbage .... Good luck to you
too!

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Roger LeBlanc
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:15 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: For Peter Stewart

Speaking only for myself, I just want to say that I don't feel
comfortable criticizing members of this list whose credentials/standing
I don't know the first thing about. I have virtually no access to useful

source material, so can contribute little on that front, but I am very
interested in medieval history and genealogy, so that's why I keep
reading this group, hoping it may someday live up to its potential and
become a genuine "discussion" group.

Peter's participation here has been tremendously beneficial to me. He
often is the only member who replies to my postings (as with the recent
Simon de Montforts thread), and I think his helpfulness and genuine
interest must be self-evident to every reader here. For those who think
otherwise, they are free to hit the delete key (as I often do with a
couple of the posters which I have come to learn will have nothing of
interest to me). That being said I think those who would delete Peter's
contributions without reading them can't be very serious about the
subject.

Roger LeBlanc

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- Show quoted text -

Now why is it that these anti-Stewart posts are functionally
illiterate in exactly the same way. As a retired college instructor,
if I received these replies under different names as classroom
assignments, I would be quite sure that they were written by the same
person. It is not likely that the same kinds of grammatical errors
would appear again and again on posts by different people all with the
same irrational and unsubstantiated viewpoint. - Bronwen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Update: one of these hydra-heads has pointed out that I did not answer
"his" question. The question assumes that Peter Stewart abuses other
listers. Because this is not the case, the question is pointless. So,
Steven Loyd (however you are spelling it now), you remind me of
students who failed to study for exams and then blamed me, the
instructor, for their bad grades. Judging from your posts, you may
actually be one of them. It does not appear that classroom education
has done much for you. It also appears that you are no older than 13
in terms of emotional adjustment. - Bronwen

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 19 aug 2007 21:48:33

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teuchter>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Og_%28comic%29>

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Brittanicus Traductus Sum
--------------------------------------------------------

"HardySpicer" <gyansorova@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1187555356.227197.226240@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 20, 5:38 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

Well thank God we got rid of many Highlanders (Teuchters as we call
them).

Lazy good for nothings that now form the backbone of your country!! Ha
ha...(evil laugh..). Many of them buggered off to Canada and have made
little of themselves there as well.Bunch of wasters - the *nglish new
what they were doing (in fact it was teh British army and not just the
*nglish). Many lowland Scots were glad to see the back of them. They
wanted a Catholic Royal family you see and the majority of lowlanders
were Rangers supporters - true to the flag of King Billie - King of
Orange Bastards.

Steven Loyd

RE: For Peter Stewart

Legg inn av Steven Loyd » 19 aug 2007 22:13:12

Many thanks, PROFESSOR. I'll do my best, in the future, to reply to your
posts in the same "exquisite" Stewart-style... I start immediately:

You must be some kind of crook-professor teaching in a
fake-crap-university-for-idiots


Regards
Your hydra-head





-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of
lostcooper@yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 10:48 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: For Peter Stewart


On Aug 19, 10:20 am, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:57 am, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:





Dear Roger,

Speaking for myself, I' have little interest to question, here,
about the quality of "Stewart" contributions.

Me (and much more peoples on this list) are questioning his
BEHAVIOR: his arrogance, pomposity, impoliteness etc. etc that
characterize his replies, and that is undoubtfull.

If you find correct that "Stewart" (or any other) can be free to
systematically treat other peoples like garbage .... Good luck to
you too!

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Roger
LeBlanc
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:15 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: For Peter Stewart

Speaking only for myself, I just want to say that I don't feel
comfortable criticizing members of this list whose
credentials/standing I don't know the first thing about. I have
virtually no access to useful

source material, so can contribute little on that front, but I am
very interested in medieval history and genealogy, so that's why I
keep reading this group, hoping it may someday live up to its
potential and become a genuine "discussion" group.

Peter's participation here has been tremendously beneficial to me.
He often is the only member who replies to my postings (as with the
recent Simon de Montforts thread), and I think his helpfulness and
genuine interest must be self-evident to every reader here. For
those who think otherwise, they are free to hit the delete key (as I

often do with a couple of the posters which I have come to learn
will have nothing of interest to me). That being said I think those
who would delete Peter's contributions without reading them can't be

very serious about the subject.

Roger LeBlanc

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

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successo nella vita e negli affari
Clicca
qui:http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6931&d=19-8-Hide quoted

text -
- Show quoted text -

Now why is it that these anti-Stewart posts are functionally
illiterate in exactly the same way. As a retired college instructor,
if I received these replies under different names as classroom
assignments, I would be quite sure that they were written by the same
person. It is not likely that the same kinds of grammatical errors
would appear again and again on posts by different people all with the

same irrational and unsubstantiated viewpoint. - Bronwen- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Update: one of these hydra-heads has pointed out that I did not answer
"his" question. The question assumes that Peter Stewart abuses other
listers. Because this is not the case, the question is pointless. So,
Steven Loyd (however you are spelling it now), you remind me of students
who failed to study for exams and then blamed me, the instructor, for
their bad grades. Judging from your posts, you may actually be one of
them. It does not appear that classroom education has done much for you.
It also appears that you are no older than 13 in terms of emotional
adjustment. - Bronwen


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



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Gjest

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 22:20:15

On Aug 18, 7:51 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"M. de la Fayette" <Faye...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:mailman.819.1187489130.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

"Peter's knowledge is a resource we
should not lose.

Paul"

Good luck, Paul!

Well, fancy that - for once I can agree with "M. de la Fayette", perhaps for
all I know with each and every one of him.

Paul Mackenzie, needless to say, is a real person and a real gentleman, who
doesn't depend on anyone else's knowledge, as his own posts show from the
formidable depth of his own research. He also doesn't resort to fantasy and
wishful thinking in genealogy, unlike "Duke" Marco who presides over the
"genmarenostrum" website about which we are constantly reminded by his
cohort of phoney identities.

Thanks, Paul. As you are one of the few SGM participants I have had the
pleasure of meeting, it is always gratifying to hear your views.

Peter Stewart

I think the illiterate posters may live in Nigeria and be writing
under many names, offering tons of money and claiming various
emergencies.

Gjest

Re: ? king ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 22:24:02

In a message dated 8/19/2007 12:55:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

The line from Alfred to Woden to Adam comes from the Anglo-Saxon
Chronicle, which was compiled during his reign. It is fiction.



-------------------
Paul can you state what part of the ASC has a line from Adam to Woden?
Thanks
Will Johnson



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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Gjest

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program???

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 22:25:04

Does Rootsmagic allow entering two men or two women into a marriage?

Does it allow *fast* searching based on a woman's married name?

And does it allow indexing other fields if you chose, for example, an index
on property or title would greatly simplify the study of how these passed from
one generation to the next.

Will



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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Leticia Cluff

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 19 aug 2007 22:30:33

On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 02:57:40 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

Hines has removed the context once again, trying to fool himself that he has
a new point - but it is only now 12.50 in Melbourne and whatever missparked
his latest damp squib cannot have been at my lunch time.

And how many times does he need to be told that "Lux et Veritas et Libertas"
is a clumsy, semi-literate attempt at translating his false slogan into
Latin? (And of course, he wouldn't know "veritas" if it bit him, which it
does every hour of every day.)


Has nobody else noticed the incorrect Latin in the Commander's new
signature?

In the thread about Culloden he declares:

Brittanicus Traductus Sum

It's a common enough mistake, but still a mistake.

Tish


Peter Stewart



"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:mVsxi.269$wi6.1673@eagle.america.net...
Hilarious!

Stewart is obviously drinking his lunch and is in high dudgeon again --
always an amusing show.

He sees conspiracies everywhere.

With Pogue J. Gans in semi-retirement, Stewart offers some of the Best
Entertainment Value on USENET.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas


Dora Smith

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program???

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 19 aug 2007 22:36:04

LOL - you're pulling the chain of the person who said we only discuss
homosexuality on this list!

But seriously, Rootsmagic's printouts look nice, but it doesn't do an awful
lot. I've genuinely found PAF plus PAF Companion to do the best job, and
at under $10 they fit most peoples' budgets. PAF is available for free,
but the person who asked actually wants something to recommend to people to
use to look at her data, and they might want to print reports.

Legacy does the best job at making web sites. There are serious
restrictions on the ability of the free version to do that. It isn't quite
as good as PAF, though it too does prettier reports.

PAF displays a little screen with the spouse of each individual you look at
in the search feature, so you can look for a married woman under her
husband's name. I don't know about Legacy and Rootsmagic. I have an idea
neither of their search features are quite as easy to use. But I don't
use either of them much beyond using Legacy to do web sites.

I think all of tehm will do some sort of an arranged list based on specified
criteria. One of the programs, not PAF, calls it a focus group and is a
bit hoagy to set up. Rootsmagic probably does teh fanciest things with
them, like allowing you to make selected people a certain color.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: Best Free Genealogy Program???


Does Rootsmagic allow entering two men or two women into a marriage?

Does it allow *fast* searching based on a woman's married name?

And does it allow indexing other fields if you chose, for example, an
index
on property or title would greatly simplify the study of how these passed
from
one generation to the next.

Will
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message




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Volucris

Re: For Peter Stewart

Legg inn av Volucris » 19 aug 2007 22:45:06

Steven (etc.etc),

It maybe not my ballgame but pfffffffffffffff.
Go and play somewere else.

Lets go back to something more substantial.
Questions en discussions on Medieval genealogy.
To my knowledge this is to be the place for that, and not for
discussion on discussions.

Hans Vogels


On 19 aug, 23:13, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
> onzin <

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 19 aug 2007 22:45:46

Yes...

So What?

Talk about off-the-wall responses...

Totally irrelevant to the thread.

DSH

"allan connochie" <conncohies@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:MJ2yi.26278$h11.24726@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:me%xi.31$Jp2.978@eagle.america.net...

Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?

Emigration in the early 20thC/late 19thC absolutely dwarved any emigration
in the aftermath of Culloden.

Allan

Gjest

Re: ? king ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 aug 2007 22:51:02

In a message dated 8/19/2007 1:35:16 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
paulvheath@gmail.com writes:

There are several different chronicles collectively called the Anglo-
Saxon Chronicle. In some versions (A, B, C, F) the genealogy is in the
annal for 855, which records the death of Aethelwulf, father of
Aelfred.


-------------------
Here is some text, it appears to be under 854
_http://historymedren.about.com/library/text/bltxtaschron851.htm_
(http://historymedren.about.com/library/ ... ron851.htm)

I hope we can all agree that 35 generations from Adam to Cenred is several
dozen generations too short. Remembering that Jehovah said he would limit the
age of man after the flood and that no one lived past about 100 after Moses.

Will



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Volucris

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Volucris » 19 aug 2007 22:57:32

DSH a Commander?
Thought he was a naval subordinate,
huffing and puffing to impersonate a literate commanding officer.

Hans Vogels



On 19 aug, 23:30, Leticia Cluff <leticia.cl...@nospam.gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 02:57:40 GMT, "Peter Stewart"

p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Hines has removed the context once again, trying to fool himself that he has
a new point - but it is only now 12.50 in Melbourne and whatever missparked
his latest damp squib cannot have been at my lunch time.

And how many times does he need to be told that "Lux et Veritas et Libertas"
is a clumsy, semi-literate attempt at translating his false slogan into
Latin? (And of course, he wouldn't know "veritas" if it bit him, which it
does every hour of every day.)

Has nobody else noticed the incorrect Latin in the Commander's new
signature?

In the thread about Culloden he declares:

Brittanicus Traductus Sum

It's a common enough mistake, but still a mistake.

Tish

Volucris

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Volucris » 19 aug 2007 23:11:05

DSH,

Who cares what you (YES YOU) do in your spare time.
Don't go twisting and manipulating other one's answers.
Put a sock in your mouth and take a hike.
Looks like your frustrated because all what you really want is to get
l...
Verbal abuse seems to be the only way you nowadays get o..

Return to some constructive Medieval Genealogy or be silent.

Hans Vogels



On 19 aug, 19:58, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
> onzin <

Bryn

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Bryn » 19 aug 2007 23:12:48

In article <tS2yi.39$Jp2.1081@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
<panther@excelsior.com> writes
Yes...

So What?

Talk about off-the-wall responses...

Totally irrelevant to the thread.



There is no thread.


DSH

"allan connochie" <conncohies@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:MJ2yi.26278$h11.24726@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:me%xi.31$Jp2.978@eagle.america.net...

Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?

Emigration in the early 20thC/late 19thC absolutely dwarved any emigration
in the aftermath of Culloden.

Allan



--
Bryn

I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but
I can't be arsed.

Remove the gremlins to email me...

Steven Loyd

RE: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Steven Loyd » 19 aug 2007 23:15:46

Very good my dear PROFESSOR: "I think the illiterate posters may live in
Nigeria (...)" you wrote.

Not only pompous and pro-Stewart.

Racist, too

Good, very "politically-correct!

Regards

Your dreamed idra-head (oh... to be precise, PROFESSOR, "Idra" is a word
coming from LATIN. Must be write IDRA and not HYDRA!

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of
lostcooper@yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 11:20 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry


On Aug 18, 7:51 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"M. de la Fayette" <Faye...@hotmail.com> wrote in
messagenews:mailman.819.1187489130.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

"Peter's knowledge is a resource we
should not lose.

Paul"

Good luck, Paul!

Well, fancy that - for once I can agree with "M. de la Fayette",
perhaps for all I know with each and every one of him.

Paul Mackenzie, needless to say, is a real person and a real
gentleman, who doesn't depend on anyone else's knowledge, as his own
posts show from the formidable depth of his own research. He also
doesn't resort to fantasy and wishful thinking in genealogy, unlike
"Duke" Marco who presides over the "genmarenostrum" website about
which we are constantly reminded by his cohort of phoney identities.

Thanks, Paul. As you are one of the few SGM participants I have had
the pleasure of meeting, it is always gratifying to hear your views.

Peter Stewart

I think the illiterate posters may live in Nigeria and be writing under
many names, offering tons of money and claiming various emergencies.


-------------------------------
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the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



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Hovite

Re: ? king ?

Legg inn av Hovite » 19 aug 2007 23:23:35

Some printed versions put it under 854, this text is from versions B
and C for 855 (version A is corrupt because a copyist has missed out a
line of text):

"A.D. 854. This year the heathen men for the first time
remained over winter in the Isle of Shepey. The same year King
Ethelwulf registered a TENTH of his land over all his kingdom for
the honour of God and for his own everlasting salvation. The
same year also he went to Rome with great pomp, and was resident
there a twelvemonth. Then he returned homeward; and Charles,
king of the Franks, gave him his daughter, whose name was Judith,
to be his queen. After this he came to his people, and they were
fain to receive him; but about two years after his residence
among the Franks he died; and his body lies at Winchester. He
reigned eighteen years and a half. And Ethelwulf was the son of
Egbert, Egbert of Ealhmund, Ealhmund of Eafa, Eafa of Eoppa,
Eoppa of Ingild; Ingild was the brother of Ina, king of the
West-Saxons, who held that kingdom thirty-seven winters, and
afterwards went to St. Peter, where he died. And they were the
sons of Cenred, Cenred of Ceolwald, Ceolwald of Cutha, Cutha of
Cuthwin, Cuthwin of Ceawlin, Ceawlin of Cynric, Cynric of Creoda,
Creoda of Cerdic, Cerdic of Elesa, Elesa of Esla, Esla of Gewis,
Gewis of Wig, Wig of Freawine, Freawine of Frithugar, Frithugar
of Brond, Brond of Balday, Balday of Woden, Woden of Frithuwald,
Frithuwald of Freawine, Freawine of Frithuwualf, Frithuwulf of
Finn, Finn of Godwulf, Godwulf of Great, Great of Taetwa, Taetwa
of Beaw, Beaw of Sceldwa, Sceldwa of Heremod, Heremod of Itermon,
Itermon of Hathra, Hathra of Hwala, Hwala of Bedwig, Bedwig of
Sceaf; that is, the son of Noah, who was born in Noah's ark:
Laznech, Methusalem, Enoh, Jared, Malalahel, Cainion, Enos, Seth,
Adam the first man, and our Father, that is, Christ. Amen. Then
two sons of Ethelwulf succeeded to the kingdom; Ethelbald to
Wessex, and Ethelbert to Kent, Essex, Surrey, and Sussex.
Ethelbald reigned five years. Alfred, his third son, Ethelwulf
had sent to Rome; and when the pope heard say that he was dead,
he consecrated Alfred king, and held him under spiritual hands,
as his father Ethelwulf had desired, and for which purpose he had
sent him thither."

http://omacl.org/Anglo/part2.html

The monk who put this together probably regarded it as literally true,
because he would have believed that all men were descended from Adam,
that all Anglo-Saxon kings were descended from Woden, and that all
West Saxon kings were descended from Cerdic, so all he had to do was
fill in the gaps. The genuine part is "And Ethelwulf was the son of
Egbert, Egbert of Ealhmund". Notice that this is a dynasty with names
commencing with E. Whether "Ealhmund of Eafa, Eafa of Eoppa" is true
is now impossible to say; there is no independent confirmation
available, and the names Eafa and Eoppa are abbreviated forms (but the
section of the genealogy from Cerdic to Woden is taken from the
mythical ancestors of Ida, King of Bernica, with various omissions and
duplications, and in that genealogy Ida's father is Eoppa, so maybe he
has been simply moved rather than omitted). Ealhmund was King of Kent,
and many other kings with names beginning with E had previously
reigned in Kent, including Ecgbert II, possibly Ealhmund's immediate
predecessor, and after whom Ealhmund chose to name his son. Ealhmund
was probably a close relative of Eanmund who reigned some twenty years
before him. Ealhmund's son Ecgbert is said to have been a kinsman
(cognatus) of Eadbert III of Kent (but this comes from Henry of
Huntingdon, who may having been guessing, taking his cue from the
Anglo-Saxon Chronicle annal dated 823 for 825). The old West Saxon
line may have ended with Ine, who is said to have been succeeded by
his wife's brother, Ethelheard (but this connexion is only mentioned
in the witness list of a charter now regarded as a forgery, though a
wise forger would use a real witness list from a genuine charter).

Volucris

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Volucris » 19 aug 2007 23:46:50

Okay wiseguy,

Tell us then what kind of Latin referencebook you use.
What you try to sell (idra) is not to be found in my 2002 (second
revised version) Latin/Dutch referencebook of the Amsterdam University
Press.
The word hydra gives no problem.

So who do you think you can fool.

Hans Vogels

On 20 aug, 00:15, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
[snip]
Your dreamed idra-head (oh... to be precise, PROFESSOR, "Idra" is a word
coming from LATIN. Must be write IDRA and not HYDRA!

Christopher Ingham

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Christopher Ingham » 20 aug 2007 01:42:40

On Aug 19, 6:46 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Okay wiseguy,

Tell us then what kind of Latin referencebook you use.
What you try to sell (idra) is not to be found in my 2002 (second
revised version) Latin/Dutch referencebook of the Amsterdam University
Press.
The word hydra gives no problem.

So who do you think you can fool.

Hans Vogels

On 20 aug, 00:15, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
[snip]



Your dreamed idra-head (oh... to be precise, PROFESSOR, "Idra" is a word
coming from LATIN. Must be write IDRA and not HYDRA!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Idra" is the Italian form of "hydra" ["Harper Collins Sansoni English-
Italian Dictionary, 3rd rev. ed. (Florence,
1995)].
In Latin it is spelled "hydra,", not "idra" ["Oxford Latin
Dictionary," 2nd rev. ed. (New York, 1996)].
The Latin word is borrowed from the Greek "ydra" (transliterated)
["Greek-English Lexicon," 9th rev. ed. (Oxford, 1996)].

Christopher Ingham

Steven Loyd

RE: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Steven Loyd » 20 aug 2007 01:57:45

Thank Chistopher, in fact the mythological Monster to whom the PROFESSOR
are referring to is , in Italian: "Idra dalle cento teste"

But, believe me, the Latin word "hydra" simply ... Don't exist!

HYDRA is the English translation of "IDRA" , the hundred-heads monster.
As you well know, Italian language "born" directly from Latin. Words
are 99,9% the same. You can find, i.e., "Cesar" in Latin and " Cesare"
in Italian, but will never find Chesar in Latin and Cesare in Italian!

Thanks for your contribution




-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Christopher
Ingham
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 2:43 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry


On Aug 19, 6:46 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Okay wiseguy,

Tell us then what kind of Latin referencebook you use.
What you try to sell (idra) is not to be found in my 2002 (second
revised version) Latin/Dutch referencebook of the Amsterdam University

Press. The word hydra gives no problem.

So who do you think you can fool.

Hans Vogels

On 20 aug, 00:15, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote: [snip]



Your dreamed idra-head (oh... to be precise, PROFESSOR, "Idra" is a
word
coming from LATIN. Must be write IDRA and not HYDRA!- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

"Idra" is the Italian form of "hydra" ["Harper Collins Sansoni English-
Italian Dictionary, 3rd rev. ed. (Florence,
1995)].
In Latin it is spelled "hydra,", not "idra" ["Oxford Latin
Dictionary," 2nd rev. ed. (New York, 1996)].
The Latin word is borrowed from the Greek "ydra" (transliterated)
["Greek-English Lexicon," 9th rev. ed. (Oxford, 1996)].

Christopher Ingham



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Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 aug 2007 02:05:24

On Aug 20, 8:15 am, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
Very good my dear PROFESSOR: "I think the illiterate posters may live in
Nigeria (...)" you wrote.

Not only pompous and pro-Stewart.

Pompous? Bronwen's remark was nothing of the sort, unlike the
ludicrous ducal titles and claims to nobility that come from you under
the alleged "nickname" Marco.

Racist, too

Nonsense - Bronwen was referring to the notorious internet scammers
who send illiterate and absurd emails from Nigeria.

Good, very "politically-correct!

Regards

Your dreamed idra-head (oh... to be precise, PROFESSOR, "Idra" is a word
coming from LATIN. Must be write IDRA and not HYDRA!

In English usage, ultimately from Greek, the word for a many-headed
monster is spelled "Hydra", see

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hydra.html

and

http://www.hydra.gr/

Peter Stewart

Christopher Ingham

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Christopher Ingham » 20 aug 2007 02:07:09

On Aug 19, 8:42 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Aug 19, 6:46 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:





Okay wiseguy,

Tell us then what kind of Latin referencebook you use.
What you try to sell (idra) is not to be found in my 2002 (second
revised version) Latin/Dutch referencebook of the Amsterdam University
Press.
The word hydra gives no problem.

So who do you think you can fool.

Hans Vogels

On 20 aug, 00:15, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
[snip]

Your dreamed idra-head (oh... to be precise, PROFESSOR, "Idra" is a word
coming from LATIN. Must be write IDRA and not HYDRA!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Idra" is the Italian form of "hydra" ["Harper Collins Sansoni English-
Italian Dictionary, 3rd rev. ed. (Florence,
1995)].
In Latin it is spelled "hydra,", not "idra" ["Oxford Latin
Dictionary," 2nd rev. ed. (New York, 1996)].
The Latin word is borrowed from the Greek "ydra" (transliterated)
["Greek-English Lexicon," 9th rev. ed. (Oxford, 1996)].

Christopher Ingham- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No, the English word "hydra' is from the Latin "hydra," the latter a
loanword from the Greek "ydra" ["The Oxford English Dictionary," 2nd
ed. (New York, 1989)].

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 aug 2007 02:09:57

On Aug 20, 10:57 am, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
Thank Chistopher, in fact the mythological Monster to whom the PROFESSOR
are referring to is , in Italian: "Idra dalle cento teste"

But, believe me, the Latin word "hydra" simply ... Don't exist!

HYDRA is the English translation of "IDRA" , the hundred-heads monster.
As you well know, Italian language "born" directly from Latin. Words
are 99,9% the same. You can find, i.e., "Cesar" in Latin and " Cesare"
in Italian, but will never find Chesar in Latin and Cesare in Italian!

Thanks for your contribution

No thanks for yours - "You can find, i.e...." Cesare" in Italian, but
will never find...Cesare in Italian!"

And you, of course, are the expert in languages....only not so clear
on your own.

Peter Stewart

Steven Loyd

RE: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Steven Loyd » 20 aug 2007 02:39:30

I can't figure if you are more idiot or brain-damaged.
You really lost the ability to read (as you admitted.....)!
Go back to the kindergarten, please



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 3:10 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry


On Aug 20, 10:57 am, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
Thank Chistopher, in fact the mythological Monster to whom the
PROFESSOR are referring to is , in Italian: "Idra dalle cento teste"

But, believe me, the Latin word "hydra" simply ... Don't exist!

HYDRA is the English translation of "IDRA" , the hundred-heads
monster. As you well know, Italian language "born" directly from
Latin. Words are 99,9% the same. You can find, i.e., "Cesar" in Latin
and " Cesare" in Italian, but will never find Chesar in Latin and
Cesare in Italian!

Thanks for your contribution

No thanks for yours - "You can find, i.e...." Cesare" in Italian, but
will never find...Cesare in Italian!"

And you, of course, are the expert in languages....only not so clear on
your own.

Peter Stewart


-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



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Gjest

Re: Somerset land grants by William

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 03:34:54

On Aug 19, 8:00 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 18 Aug., 22:41, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:

G'day Folks,
This is my first post to this group. I have a problem which I hope
that someone can resolve.
Does anyone have any knowledge of this Adam De Coveston or can you
point me to any readily available source where I can identify who he
was, so that I can extend the lineage further back.

G'day, Rfer.

Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants', p 413 has details as follows:

Adam de Covestone, son of Geoffrey I de Covestone, and father of
Geoffrey II de Covestone, who held his grandfather's fee of the abbot
of Glastonsbury in 1166.

Chronologically, it would therefore seem extremely unlikely that Adam
was active at the time of the Conquest, or received land from William
I.

I have several
lines going back 3000 years and feel that he must tie in to at least
one of them.

Is this a typo for 300? No human genealogy is provable further than
some 1600 years, so any 3000 year genealogy is not valid.

Regards, Michael

G'day Michael,
I go back several generations before the Geoffrey and Adam whom you
mention - probably 2 more, to Geoffrey father of that Adam and Adam
father of the latter Geoffrey. This would take me to the grandfather
whom you mention, who had the original grant.

I am curious as to why you say that no human genealogy is provable
further back than 1600 years - i.e. before 400 AD +/-. There are
written records that precede that date and histories were written of
the people then, which include a potted genealogy. When several such
documents have been found, I would consider the case to be proved. Are
you going to say that the lineage of Julius Caesar or the descendancy
of the Pharohs of Egypt are not firmly established? I think that a LOT
of people would shoot you down in flames over an assertion such as you
have made.

I have never accepted the first thing that I found on the 'Net and
have always insisted on finding several sites which, in terms of fuzzy
logic, agree with one another. I have looked for as many as possible
and then take the consensus of opinion. My opinion is that I can never
access the original documents, here in Australia, and, even if I
could, I would not be able to read them, as I do not have the language
scholarship to do so. So I have to rely on the scholarship of others
and what is posted on the 'Net.

So, yes, I am back 3000 years not 300. 300 years would not take me
back even close to the information that I am seeking to enlarge upon.
My database contains 24,240 names and goes back into most parts of
Europe.

Yesterday, I went through the text portion of the Falaise Roll and did
not find anything conclusive. I also went through the Somerset portion
of the Penguin Translation of the Domesday Book and found Stawell,
held by Azelin, and Stowell, held by Goscelin. My searching on the
'Net today has found that Azelin may possibly be a misspelling of
Ascelin and that that may translate into English as Alfred. Seeing
that I have previously found that Auvrai translates as Alfred, it is
possible that Ascelin could translate as Adam. But that remains to be
proved in some way.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue

Gjest

Re: For Peter Stewart

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 04:05:20

On Aug 19, 2:13 pm, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
Many thanks, PROFESSOR. I'll do my best, in the future, to reply to your
posts in the same "exquisite" Stewart-style... I start immediately:

You must be some kind of crook-professor teaching in a
fake-crap-university-for-idiots

Regards
Your hydra-head



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of
lostcoo...@yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 10:48 PM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: For Peter Stewart

On Aug 19, 10:20 am, lostcoo...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:57 am, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:

Dear Roger,

Speaking for myself, I' have little interest to question, here,
about the quality of "Stewart" contributions.

Me (and much more peoples on this list) are questioning his
BEHAVIOR: his arrogance, pomposity, impoliteness etc. etc that
characterize his replies, and that is undoubtfull.

If you find correct that "Stewart" (or any other) can be free to
systematically treat other peoples like garbage .... Good luck to
you too!

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Roger
LeBlanc
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 6:15 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: For Peter Stewart

Speaking only for myself, I just want to say that I don't feel
comfortable criticizing members of this list whose
credentials/standing I don't know the first thing about. I have
virtually no access to useful

source material, so can contribute little on that front, but I am
very interested in medieval history and genealogy, so that's why I
keep reading this group, hoping it may someday live up to its
potential and become a genuine "discussion" group.

Peter's participation here has been tremendously beneficial to me.
He often is the only member who replies to my postings (as with the
recent Simon de Montforts thread), and I think his helpfulness and
genuine interest must be self-evident to every reader here. For
those who think otherwise, they are free to hit the delete key (as I

often do with a couple of the posters which I have come to learn
will have nothing of interest to me). That being said I think those
who would delete Peter's contributions without reading them can't be

very serious about the subject.

Roger LeBlanc

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text -

- Show quoted text -

Now why is it that these anti-Stewart posts are functionally
illiterate in exactly the same way. As a retired college instructor,
if I received these replies under different names as classroom
assignments, I would be quite sure that they were written by the same
person. It is not likely that the same kinds of grammatical errors
would appear again and again on posts by different people all with the

same irrational and unsubstantiated viewpoint. - Bronwen- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Update: one of these hydra-heads has pointed out that I did not answer
"his" question. The question assumes that Peter Stewart abuses other
listers. Because this is not the case, the question is pointless. So,
Steven Loyd (however you are spelling it now), you remind me of students
who failed to study for exams and then blamed me, the instructor, for
their bad grades. Judging from your posts, you may actually be one of
them. It does not appear that classroom education has done much for you.
It also appears that you are no older than 13 in terms of emotional
adjustment. - Bronwen

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- Show quoted text -

You have proven my point very well. Bronwen

Gjest

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 04:25:23

On Aug 19, 6:39 pm, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
I can't figure if you are more idiot or brain-damaged.
You really lost the ability to read (as you admitted.....)!
Go back to the kindergarten, please



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 3:10 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

On Aug 20, 10:57 am, "Steven Loyd" <and...@email.it> wrote:
Thank Chistopher, in fact the mythological Monster to whom the
PROFESSOR are referring to is , in Italian: "Idra dalle cento teste"

But, believe me, the Latin word "hydra" simply ... Don't exist!

HYDRA is the English translation of "IDRA" , the hundred-heads
monster. As you well know, Italian language "born" directly from
Latin. Words are 99,9% the same. You can find, i.e., "Cesar" in Latin
and " Cesare" in Italian, but will never find Chesar in Latin and
Cesare in Italian!

Thanks for your contribution

No thanks for yours - "You can find, i.e...." Cesare" in Italian, but
will never find...Cesare in Italian!"

And you, of course, are the expert in languages....only not so clear on
your own.

Peter Stewart

-------------------------------
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Clicca qui:http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6909&d=20-8- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

By this point it is very clear to anyone reading these posts that you
(however many or few there might be) either lack natural intelligence
or acquired knowledge. Only the least educated and most bitter losers
think that "professor" is a disparaging word. Education is despised
only by those who do not have any or have tried and failed. Of
course, the vast majority of uneducated people do NOT act like you,
speak like you, etc. They have honor and courage in a difficult world
and work for their living. You sound like a kid who thinks he's too
"good" for the job from which he has just gotten fired and the boss
was only jealous. You should do something to better yourself - night
school or community college - anything. If you have thoughts worth
sharing, they are worth sharing coherently and eloquently. Please
learn to do this rather than attacking people because they have
expertise beyond your own.

Christopher Ingham

Re: Somerset land grants by William

Legg inn av Christopher Ingham » 20 aug 2007 04:43:37

On Aug 19, 10:34 pm, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:
On Aug 19, 8:00 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:





On 18 Aug., 22:41, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:

G'day Folks,
This is my first post to this group. I have a problem which I hope
that someone can resolve.
Does anyone have any knowledge of this Adam De Coveston or can you
point me to any readily available source where I can identify who he
was, so that I can extend the lineage further back.

G'day, Rfer.

Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants', p 413 has details as follows:

Adam de Covestone, son of Geoffrey I de Covestone, and father of
Geoffrey II de Covestone, who held his grandfather's fee of the abbot
of Glastonsbury in 1166.

Chronologically, it would therefore seem extremely unlikely that Adam
was active at the time of the Conquest, or received land from William
I.

I have several
lines going back 3000 years and feel that he must tie in to at least
one of them.

Is this a typo for 300? No human genealogy is provable further than
some 1600 years, so any 3000 year genealogy is not valid.

Regards, Michael

G'day Michael,
I go back several generations before the Geoffrey and Adam whom you
mention - probably 2 more, to Geoffrey father of that Adam and Adam
father of the latter Geoffrey. This would take me to the grandfather
whom you mention, who had the original grant.

I am curious as to why you say that no human genealogy is provable
further back than 1600 years - i.e. before 400 AD +/-. There are
written records that precede that date and histories were written of
the people then, which include a potted genealogy. When several such
documents have been found, I would consider the case to be proved. Are
you going to say that the lineage of Julius Caesar or the descendancy
of the Pharohs of Egypt are not firmly established? I think that a LOT
of people would shoot you down in flames over an assertion such as you
have made.

I have never accepted the first thing that I found on the 'Net and
have always insisted on finding several sites which, in terms of fuzzy
logic, agree with one another. I have looked for as many as possible
and then take the consensus of opinion. My opinion is that I can never
access the original documents, here in Australia, and, even if I
could, I would not be able to read them, as I do not have the language
scholarship to do so. So I have to rely on the scholarship of others
and what is posted on the 'Net.

So, yes, I am back 3000 years not 300. 300 years would not take me
back even close to the information that I am seeking to enlarge upon.
My database contains 24,240 names and goes back into most parts of
Europe.

Yesterday, I went through the text portion of the Falaise Roll and did
not find anything conclusive. I also went through the Somerset portion
of the Penguin Translation of the Domesday Book and found Stawell,
held by Azelin, and Stowell, held by Goscelin. My searching on the
'Net today has found that Azelin may possibly be a misspelling of
Ascelin and that that may translate into English as Alfred. Seeing
that I have previously found that Auvrai translates as Alfred, it is
possible that Ascelin could translate as Adam. But that remains to be
proved in some way.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Rfer and Hue,
While many ancient and medieval lineages are known, there are
unfortunately no accepted documented connections between anyone living
in late antiquity and the Early Middle Ages (an indication of the
nearly total cultural collapse of classical civilization).
Traditional early genealogies (e.g., of the Norse, the Irish, and the
Merovingians), although comprised of historical elements, have been
shown to be riddled with legends, myths, and outright falsehoods. The
prosopographical research of Christian Settipani and others has
produced tantalizing leads, but not hard evidence. Beware of the many
genealogical websites which indiscriminately connect almost everyone
back to Adam; you'll notice that they are consistently unsourced.

You might want to check out the lively discussions of this topic in
the archives of this newsgroup, under the heading "DFA" ("descent from
antiquity"), for example.

Christopher Ingham

allan connochie

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av allan connochie » 20 aug 2007 06:34:08

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:tS2yi.39$Jp2.1081@eagle.america.net...
Yes...

So What?

Talk about off-the-wall responses...

Totally irrelevant to the thread.

You asked which Scots migrated in the largest numbers. It was the Scots of
the late 19thC and 20thC who migrated in the largest numbers. I answered
your question!



Allan

Gjest

Re: Somerset land grants by William

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 07:48:19

On 20 Aug., 03:34, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:
On Aug 19, 8:00 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:





On 18 Aug., 22:41, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:

G'day Folks,
This is my first post to this group. I have a problem which I hope
that someone can resolve.
Does anyone have any knowledge of this Adam De Coveston or can you
point me to any readily available source where I can identify who he
was, so that I can extend the lineage further back.

G'day, Rfer.

Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants', p 413 has details as follows:

Adam de Covestone, son of Geoffrey I de Covestone, and father of
Geoffrey II de Covestone, who held his grandfather's fee of the abbot
of Glastonsbury in 1166.

Chronologically, it would therefore seem extremely unlikely that Adam
was active at the time of the Conquest, or received land from William
I.

I have several
lines going back 3000 years and feel that he must tie in to at least
one of them.

Is this a typo for 300? No human genealogy is provable further than
some 1600 years, so any 3000 year genealogy is not valid.

Regards, Michael

G'day Michael,
I go back several generations before the Geoffrey and Adam whom you
mention - probably 2 more, to Geoffrey father of that Adam and Adam
father of the latter Geoffrey. This would take me to the grandfather
whom you mention, who had the original grant.

Hi Rfer

I'm afraid you misread what I posted. What Keats-Rohan says is that
Geoffrey II, son of Adam, son of Geoffrey I, held in 1166 the land
that his grandfather (Geoffrey I) held previously. Thus, the
genealogy is traced back only to Geoffrey I. There is no mention of
an earlier Adam. I have also checked Keats-Rohan's companion volume,
Domesday People, and the Domesday Book itself, and cannot find an
earlier Adam that fits the bill. I would be extremely doubtful that
the name Ascelin or Azelin equates to Adam (or to Alfred for that
matter) but others here will be far more knowledgeable than I am on
that score.

I am curious as to why you say that no human genealogy is provable
further back than 1600 years - i.e. before 400 AD +/-. There are
written records that precede that date and histories were written of
the people then, which include a potted genealogy. When several such
documents have been found, I would consider the case to be proved. Are
you going to say that the lineage of Julius Caesar or the descendancy
of the Pharohs of Egypt are not firmly established? I think that a LOT
of people would shoot you down in flames over an assertion such as you
have made.

No doubt they would like to try, but they would all be wrong, because
it is not an assertion; it is a fact. As a genealogist, I wish as
much as anyone that it wasn't so! There are many claimed genealogies
going back to BC, but every one of them is either multiple guesswork,
or fairy-tales, or lies - or a mixture of all three. If you would
like to post some of your 3000-year old genealogies here, we can
examine them and explain where they break or fall down.

I have never accepted the first thing that I found on the 'Net and
have always insisted on finding several sites which, in terms of fuzzy
logic, agree with one another. I have looked for as many as possible
and then take the consensus of opinion.

This may be fuzzy, but unfortunately it's not logic. The chances are
that the multitude of internet sites have all borrowed their incorrect
data from each other. Just because a mistake is broadcast by several
websites does not change its erroneousness. A better methodology is
to go for quality rather than quantity: i.e. which sites show their
references, and tie their statements back to primary sources. The
vast majority of internet genealogy is, sadly, rubbish.

My opinion is that I can never
access the original documents, here in Australia, and, even if I
could, I would not be able to read them, as I do not have the language
scholarship to do so. So I have to rely on the scholarship of others
and what is posted on the 'Net.

As noted above, much of what is posted on the net is not scholarship,
but blind copyship. You would be amazed to know what primary sources
are available to you, even in Australia. Most of the State or older
University libraries will have runs of primary UK documents in various
record series, including administration records, Visitations and the
like. And the net does have some good stuff too - for example, as
Will Johnson has recently pointed out here, the UK's Public Record
Office has much of its primary material online at http://www.pro.gov.uk while
many of the county record offices either have their own searchable
websites or their material is on http://www.a2a.org.uk ("access to
archives"). Even Google Books and the Gallica website will enable you
to view older published sources. The vast majority of these are in
English.

What I am proposing is, of course, far more rigorous and challenging,
but it is also far more useful and rewarding.

And remember, many of the listers here are always happy to help out
during the process!

Kind regards, Michael

Gjest

Re: Somerset land grants by William

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 08:21:47

On Aug 20, 1:43 pm, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:
On Aug 19, 10:34 pm, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:



On Aug 19, 8:00 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

On 18 Aug., 22:41, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:

G'day Folks,
This is my first post to this group. I have a problem which I hope
that someone can resolve.
Does anyone have any knowledge of this Adam De Coveston or can you
point me to any readily available source where I can identify who he
was, so that I can extend the lineage further back.

G'day, Rfer.

Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants', p 413 has details as follows:

Adam de Covestone, son of Geoffrey I de Covestone, and father of
Geoffrey II de Covestone, who held his grandfather's fee of the abbot
of Glastonsbury in 1166.

Chronologically, it would therefore seem extremely unlikely that Adam
was active at the time of the Conquest, or received land from William
I.

I have several
lines going back 3000 years and feel that he must tie in to at least
one of them.

Is this a typo for 300? No human genealogy is provable further than
some 1600 years, so any 3000 year genealogy is not valid.

Regards, Michael

G'day Michael,
I go back several generations before the Geoffrey and Adam whom you
mention - probably 2 more, to Geoffrey father of that Adam and Adam
father of the latter Geoffrey. This would take me to the grandfather
whom you mention, who had the original grant.

I am curious as to why you say that no human genealogy is provable
further back than 1600 years - i.e. before 400 AD +/-. There are
written records that precede that date and histories were written of
the people then, which include a potted genealogy. When several such
documents have been found, I would consider the case to be proved. Are
you going to say that the lineage of Julius Caesar or the descendancy
of the Pharohs of Egypt are not firmly established? I think that a LOT
of people would shoot you down in flames over an assertion such as you
have made.

I have never accepted the first thing that I found on the 'Net and
have always insisted on finding several sites which, in terms of fuzzy
logic, agree with one another. I have looked for as many as possible
and then take the consensus of opinion. My opinion is that I can never
access the original documents, here in Australia, and, even if I
could, I would not be able to read them, as I do not have the language
scholarship to do so. So I have to rely on the scholarship of others
and what is posted on the 'Net.

So, yes, I am back 3000 years not 300. 300 years would not take me
back even close to the information that I am seeking to enlarge upon.
My database contains 24,240 names and goes back into most parts of
Europe.

Yesterday, I went through the text portion of the Falaise Roll and did
not find anything conclusive. I also went through the Somerset portion
of the Penguin Translation of the Domesday Book and found Stawell,
held by Azelin, and Stowell, held by Goscelin. My searching on the
'Net today has found that Azelin may possibly be a misspelling of
Ascelin and that that may translate into English as Alfred. Seeing
that I have previously found that Auvrai translates as Alfred, it is
possible that Ascelin could translate as Adam. But that remains to be
proved in some way.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Rfer and Hue,
While many ancient and medieval lineages are known, there are
unfortunately no accepted documented connections between anyone living
in late antiquity and the Early Middle Ages (an indication of the
nearly total cultural collapse of classical civilization).
Traditional early genealogies (e.g., of the Norse, the Irish, and the
Merovingians), although comprised of historical elements, have been
shown to be riddled with legends, myths, and outright falsehoods. The
prosopographical research of Christian Settipani and others has
produced tantalizing leads, but not hard evidence. Beware of the many
genealogical websites which indiscriminately connect almost everyone
back to Adam; you'll notice that they are consistently unsourced.

You might want to check out the lively discussions of this topic in
the archives of this newsgroup, under the heading "DFA" ("descent from
antiquity"), for example.

Christopher Ingham

G'day Christopher,
I have already run across several lineages claiming to go back to
Adam. The first thing that I look for in them is where the error is,
e.g. showing Mark Anthony as a son of Julius Caesar, or, in one case a
son born in 560, when his father is shown as dying in 547. I am afraid
that they did not have in vitro fertilisation back in those times. I
am very wary of all that I see, being claimed as correct.

I have ancestors in Jersey and those lineages have been carefully
researched from actual records on Jersey by members of the family and
passed on to me. When I look at the IGI, I not only find those records
in Jersey, but they show up in France with exactly the same details. I
have also seen two sets of the same children in the same order with
the same parents, but born 30 years apart. Is it any wonder that I am
skeptical? But I look at sites like Paul McBride and Brian Tompsett
and see the quoted sources and I look at whatever I can find and read
and assess it.

While I agree that the Mormons have done a whole lot to help
genealogy, I think that they have done a lot to hinder it by
encouraging people with no interest in genealogy to try to gain
credits towards the after-life by preparing incorrect ancestries to
present to the church in response to their request for lineages from
all members. Those with no real interest will simply grab the nearest
name that seems to match and insert it into their tree. I always look
at the relationships of dates and places before I accept anything.

I am not a qualified genealogist but I do have 18 years of experience
and am a qualified Civil Engineer. So I am not devoid of intelligence
or knowledge, in the matter of research and research methods. Not that
I thought that you were saying that.

Thank you for your input and I have taken on board all that you have
said.

Keep well and happy, as I am.

I assume that anyone can read these messages, who is subscribed to
this group, so I will outline what my signature block embodies.

The Happy Hunting started out as a genealogical wish but I soon
realised that EVERYONE is looking for something so it has universal
application. The smiley is my breezy outlook on life. Rfer is the
somewhat childish way that my dear sister refers to me and Hue is my
lovely Vietnamese wife.of 7 years. So it is all there for a very good
and sensible reason and stamps me as me.

Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 20 aug 2007 09:35:31

Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

You don't READ well.

FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?

ET ALII.

DSH
-------------------------------------------------

"allan connochie" <conncohies@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:kJ9yi.19761$mo.8579@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:tS2yi.39$Jp2.1081@eagle.america.net..

Yes...

So What?

Talk about off-the-wall responses...

Totally irrelevant to the thread.

You asked which Scots migrated in the largest numbers. It was the Scots of
the late 19thC and 20thC who migrated in the largest numbers. I answered
your question!

Allan

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Newsweek: Remember GLOBAL COOLING?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 20 aug 2007 09:40:30

That's VERY Good.

DSH
-------------------------------------------------

"Eugene Griessel" <eugene@dynagen..co..za> wrote in message
news:46c92682.742860@news.uunet.co.za...

> An elephant: A mouse built to government specifications.

allan connochie

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av allan connochie » 20 aug 2007 10:35:38

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:Lncyi.50$Jp2.1060@eagle.america.net...
Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

You don't READ well.

And you don't seem to take information well which is relevant. What is meant
by the aftermath of Culloden? Are you talking about the months after it, a
two or three year period after it, or during the century or so after it? I
simply don't know. However the figures for emigration were far more
significant from about the mid-19thC to the earlier 20thC. Hence you at
least have the info supplied indicating that the 'immediate' aftermath of
Culloden didn't see a particulary high emigration rate when compared with
later periods.



FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?



I can't imagine either of these would have seem massive emigration due to
Culloden! Many Grahams in the Borders, both English and Scottish, were
forcibly transported to Ireland but that was about 140 years earlier than
Culloden. Lkewise the Armstrongs had been possibly the most powerful of the
Scottish reiving clans and for a time were outlawed. After the Union of the
Crowns, King James VI instigated a period of oppression in the Borders which
saw some executions but many more forced recruitment into military service
and transportations.



Allan

SomersetSue

Re: Somerset land grants by William

Legg inn av SomersetSue » 20 aug 2007 10:55:43

Just a quick comment on Somerset place names.

Stawell and Stowell are two different villages. Stawell is on the
southern slopes of the Polden Hills and is pronounced Stawl.
Stowell is near Templecombe and not far from Sherborne.

I thought I'd mention it in case it was being assumed that they were
the same place with spelling variants.

As for descents from Adam.........well with geologists and
paleoanthropologists in my family, I am as we say in the UK
"gobsmacked" to think there are people taking those seriously. Ah well
each to their own.

Sue

John Plant

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av John Plant » 20 aug 2007 11:02:12

Ok;

but perhaps the more formal evidence and intimation to appear in the
Nomina 30 paper may seem a little less so. Laughing at reality doesn't
go down well with everyone but who cares!

John

D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Hilarious!

Grasping At Straws...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:mailman.803.1187469818.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

John Plant wrote:

What I found most interesting, however, was the association with the
Warennes' holdings. I've noted an association in Yorkshire between the
God[d]ard surname and the Fitzwilliams' holdings. I'm a little cautious
because the FWs had quite a spread of holdings so there may be nothing
more than coincidence at work but it did strike me that the spread of
the surname may have in some way happened under their aegis. Have you
considered the possibility that such a mechanism may have been involved
with the Plants without there having been a genetic connections?
In Appendix D of my Nomina 30 paper, I develop this slightly to a
*possible* association with the interests of Maud Marshall leading on to
the Longspee and Warenne holdings, possibly including some sea trade
activities. I use this only, however, to illustrate that there were
adequate proximities for the possibility of some relevant cultural
interaction. This is just an aside and not the main theme of the paper.

John



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

--
..
.. John S Plant BSc PhD MBCS CITP MInstP MIDI KLUO
Computing, Finance & IT Directorate, Keele University, England, ST5 5BG.

Bryn

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Bryn » 20 aug 2007 12:59:11

In article <Lncyi.50$Jp2.1060@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
<panther@excelsior.com> writes
Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

You don't READ well.

FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?


Borders... Barely Scottish...
ET ALII.

DSH
-------------------------------------------------

"allan connochie" <conncohies@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:kJ9yi.19761$mo.8579@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:tS2yi.39$Jp2.1081@eagle.america.net..

Yes...

So What?

Talk about off-the-wall responses...

Totally irrelevant to the thread.

You asked which Scots migrated in the largest numbers. It was the Scots of
the late 19thC and 20thC who migrated in the largest numbers. I answered
your question!

Allan



--
Bryn

I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but
I can't be arsed.

Remove the gremlins to email me...

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 20 aug 2007 16:19:45

Much more helpful.

Thank you.

DSH

"allan connochie" <allan@noemail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:46cab1d8@news.greennet.net...

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?

I can't imagine either of these would have seem [sic] massive emigration
due to Culloden!

Right. I wasn't implying it.

Highlanders of any distinct names being transported/emigrating immediately
post Culloden?

Many Grahams in the Borders, both English and Scottish, were forcibly
transported to Ireland but that was about 140 years earlier than Culloden.
Lkewise the Armstrongs had been possibly the most powerful of the Scottish
reiving clans and for a time were outlawed. After the Union of the Crowns,
King James VI instigated a period of oppression in the Borders which saw
some executions but many more forced recruitment into military service and
transportations.

Allan

Leticia Cluff

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 20 aug 2007 16:27:45

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:35:31 +1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<panther@excelsior.com> wrote:

Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

I see you have corrected the slovenly error, but what happened to the
customary "Recte"?

Why do you correct some errors silently, in true 1984 style?

And why do you not thank your betters when they try to help you on
your long and painful journey toward a belated education?


You don't READ well.


Mr. Connochie did not misread anything in your poorly worded question.


FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?


Methinks you are in the wrong time and place. Your ancestors were
deported long before Culloden, and from a different, more debatable
part of Scotland.

I am pretty sure you should be writing:

Britannicus Eructatus Sum

Tish

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 20 aug 2007 16:30:15

Peter Stewart, our Tasmanian Devil in SGM, obviously has not the slightest
idea of what a Top Banana is.

He needs to do some Basic Research,

Amusing...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Gjest

Re: Newsweek: Remember GLOBAL COOLING?

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 16:39:14

On Aug 20, 1:40 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
That's VERY Good.

DSH
-------------------------------------------------

"Eugene Griessel" <eugene@dynagen..co..za> wrote in message

news:46c92682.742860@news.uunet.co.za...



An elephant: A mouse built to government specifications.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Except the magazine article is actually an expose of the corporate
funding for naysayers; it supports the fact of global warning. You
have to look beyond the cover.

John Plant

Re: FPE probability

Legg inn av John Plant » 20 aug 2007 16:55:40

Thanks Simon for a bit of mathematical sanity.

Putting this on a more formal footing

if p is the probability of FPE in one generation
then (1-p) is the probability of no FPE in one generation
and (1 - p)^n is the probability of no FPE in n generations
giving
1 - (1-p)^n as the probability of at least one FPE in n generations

Note that, for small p, 1 - (1-p)^n approximates to pn, if I have not
forgotten all of my elementary math. This is not a particularly good
approximation for p=0.02 and n=25 however, and when I said "about 50%"
much earlier (as a quick rough stab at it, leading on to much abuse), it
would have been better if I had said 60% (not that the experimental data
is accurate enough for the difference to matter and I thought it
adequate for a rough estimate on this list to conflate the experimental
uncertainty with the calculation; nonetheless, this clarity is a
blessing for those who understand it). I had not realized there would be
so much interest in this fine detail on this list.

this assumes
1 p is constant throughout the generations
2 the probability of an FPE in one generation is independent of an
FPE in any previous or succeeding generation - I'm not convinced that is

true
p = 0.02 n = 25 gives .40 for at least one FPE in 25 generations
p = 0.05 n = 25 gives .72 for at least one FPE in 25 generations
p= 0.1 n = 25 gives .93 for at least one FPE in 25 generations

cheers

Simon

(1-p)^n means raise (1-p) to the power n

allan connochie

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av allan connochie » 20 aug 2007 17:03:49

"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremlinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VM0lHGAPIYyGFwx7@finhall.demon.co.uk...
In article <Lncyi.50$Jp2.1060@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes
Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

You don't READ well.

FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?


Borders... Barely Scottish...

Oooh! Mark my words you'r doomed....................doomed I say :-)

Allan

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 20 aug 2007 17:14:04

Peter thinks a Top Banana is something he sees through the glory hole in one
of those bath houses he frequents...

So naturally he looks up to them.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

allan connochie

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av allan connochie » 20 aug 2007 17:15:19

"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4hbjc3dvnioiohviuhdm66hgtgphup31j1@4ax.com...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:35:31 +1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
panther@excelsior.com> wrote:

Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

I see you have corrected the slovenly error, but what happened to the
customary "Recte"?

Why do you correct some errors silently, in true 1984 style?

And why do you not thank your betters when they try to help you on
your long and painful journey toward a belated education?


You don't READ well.


Mr. Connochie did not misread anything in your poorly worded question.


FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?


Methinks you are in the wrong time and place. Your ancestors were
deported long before Culloden, and from a different, more debatable
part of Scotland.

Come the revolution you're up against the wall..........with
Bryn.........but he gets shot first :-)

More seriously though the border as such is more or less as it was long
before the Wars of Indepedence. Certainly in the eastern half of country the
current border, Berwick aside, is more or less the same as it was after the
Battle of Carham in 1018. In the west it was set slightly later but not
much. The so called Debateable Land is only a small piece of coutryside near
the Canonbie area. There were of course periods when the English dales
recognised out of necessity the Scottish king as their lord and likewise
there were periods of English occupation of southern Scottish strongholds,
but that is a different matter. By comparison much of the Hebrides didn't
become part of the Scottish kingdom for about a quarter of a millenium after
Carham. The Northern Isles were even later. When they were basically ruled
from Norway the Scottish Borders were an integral part, and possibly richest
part of the Scottish kingdom. Roxburgh and Berwick were at one time arguably
the two most important burghs.

Allan

Bryn

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Bryn » 20 aug 2007 17:23:16

In article <FXiyi.35749$1G1.27295@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>, allan connochie
<conncohies@noemail.com> writes
"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremlinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VM0lHGAPIYyGFwx7@finhall.demon.co.uk...
In article <Lncyi.50$Jp2.1060@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes
Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

You don't READ well.

FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?


Borders... Barely Scottish...

Oooh! Mark my words you'r doomed....................doomed I say :-)

Allan


I've been awful bored lately...


--
Bryn

I suppose its expected that some pithy comment be inserted here but
I can't be arsed.

Remove the gremlins to email me...

Gjest

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 17:36:05

On 20 Aug., 17:14, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Peter thinks a Top Banana is something he sees through the glory hole in one
of those bath houses he frequents...

So naturally he looks up to them.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Yawn. Why don't you take your projected fantasies somewhere else?

Your wife and children must be ever so proud of you. Do they know
what you get up to? You do realise a simple google search will reveal
your filth, don't you?

Is this what your esteemed father brought you up to do?

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 aug 2007 17:49:46

Is this what your esteemed father brought you up to do?

MA-R

Never mind about his father. I'm sure your own is so lenient,
indulgent and touchy feely he's pleased at *however* you've turned
out, as long as you're still alive.

Doug McDonald

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 20 aug 2007 17:57:59

There was a massive emigration of McDonalds etc. after Culloden, which
continues for quite a while. I have no idea whether we constituted the
actual largest name group, but we would have been one of the largest.

The books of people who were "shipped" or "transported" to
the American south in the second half of the 18th century is filled
with McDonald or Cland Donald names, and most of the were "transported"
rather than "shipped", and that alone tells you something. But it
was a much longer flow than just a big burst right after Culloden.

I don't know who my immigrant McDonald ancestor was. My first known
McDonald ancestor was born in GA about 1818, though the census says
both parents came from Scotland. My suspicion is that he had something
to do with Warren Co. GA, based on names of relatives.

My DNA matches that of the chiefs pre-1500. We as yet cannot
say more from the DNA except that his line did not branch from the
main Skye chief line after 1500.

Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 20 aug 2007 18:08:48

Now THAT's a very informative post.

McDONALD.

DSH

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fach78$hsk$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...

There was a massive emigration of McDonalds etc. after Culloden, which
continues for quite a while. I have no idea whether we constituted the
actual largest name group, but we would have been one of the largest.

The books of people who were "shipped" or "transported" to
the American south in the second half of the 18th century is filled
with McDonald or Cland Donald names, and most of the were "transported"
rather than "shipped", and that alone tells you something. But it
was a much longer flow than just a big burst right after Culloden.

I don't know who my immigrant McDonald ancestor was. My first known
McDonald ancestor was born in GA about 1818, though the census says
both parents came from Scotland. My suspicion is that he had something
to do with Warren Co. GA, based on names of relatives.

My DNA matches that of the chiefs pre-1500. We as yet cannot
say more from the DNA except that his line did not branch from the
main Skye chief line after 1500.

Doug McDonald

The Highlander

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av The Highlander » 20 aug 2007 19:16:24

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:59:11 +0100, Bryn
<bryn@finhall.gremlinsdemon.co.uk> wrote:

In article <Lncyi.50$Jp2.1060@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes
Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

You don't READ well.

FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

The Grahams were originally from the English side of the Border.
ARMSTRONGS?

Johnny Armstrong of Gillnockie was the most famous of them all and
there are several ballads still extant concerning his exploits.

"The Steel Bonnets" a book by George MacDonald Fraser of "Flashman"
fame describes the Border families as "slick professional gangsters
who made the Chicago Mob look like bumbling amateurs".

The period of their ascendancy seems to have been from the 14th to the
16th century.

Several posters in SCS are descended from the Border Reivers
(Raiders), myself included. Our ancestors were as hard as nails and
probably the cruellest people who ever stalked the "The Debatable
Lands", a name given to the Borders as neither England nor Scotland
were anxious to lay claim to them and thus accept responsibility for
the brutal rule of the Border country by the great riding families and
their willingness to switch sides at the drop of a golden guinea...

Most lived by robbery, murder and blackmail; the word of the time for
protection money, which my mother's family claims to have given to the
English language. Border pride in this ancestry is still very much
alive and well. Enforcing the payment of blackmail was usually done by
hanging a member of a defaulting family, including any children, each
time a payment was missed.

To this day the descendants of the Border Reivers are considered "Hard
Men", especially in Ulster, where many fled to avoid execution. Border
pride in this ancestry is commemorated every summer by "Common
Ridings" when mounted horsemen ride the boundaries of their various
towns.

The Grahams, a particularly sought after group by the forces of law
and order, fled to Northern Ireland and Holland and many changed their
name to Maharg, (Graham spelled backwards) and can be found to this
day in phonebooks in the UK, US, Canada, etc.

Neither the Scottish nor the English would admit that the Borderers
were their citizens because of their wish to avoid paying reparations
for their depradations. However when James VI of Scotland became James
I of England, he attacked the Borderers with his now-combined armies
and the records show that many members of my mother's family were
caught and hanged in James' attempts to exterminate them all. However,
the record also shows that many with their surname were still being
hanged some forty years later and the family obviously survives to
this day and was even recently graced by a visit from Prince Charles!

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archiv ... s_ewe.html

Andrew Elliot, who entertained the Prince, is my cousin.

King James, in considering the appeal against the death sentence of
one of my more famous ancestors is reputed to have delivered his
verdict with the words, "He'll be none the worse for a good hanging".
The ancestor duly swung from a gallows.

My most famous Border ancestor, "Wee Jock Elliot of the Park", when
meeting with Lord Darnley, husband of Mary Queen of Scots, to discuss
a peace treaty, stabbed Darnley in the guts with a knife, but was
himself stabbed in return (according the family story, both men had
sworn they were unarmed, but treachery was a way of life in those
days). Wee Jock ,although badly wounded, managed to escape the men
hunting him down and lived to fight another day.

Of course, today, we are all sweetness and light, as epitomised by
myself. I might add, that the record of some of the families of other
posters to SCS would sicken a dog, but for fear of retaliation, I
shall refrain from identifying them...

I might add that my family was known for drowning their prisoners in
streams, rather than hanging them. This probably relates to the belief
that a rope used to hang someone was cursed in some way and could be
a nagging perennial expense, although at other times, ropes which had
hanged someone were considered blessed and we often sold to buyers by
the inch, being cut into pieces as required.

My personal picture of a Border Reiver is that of a man sitting on a
horse, leaning on a spear with his shoulder which is pinning an
enemy messenger to the ground through the neck, while the rider reads
the message he was carrying. I don't remember where I saw this
picture, but I do remember the rumble of approval from the adults and
the remarks concerning its life-like quality. Nobody seemed at all
bothered by its content and goes a long way to explaining why my Great
Uncle Walter's shooting of a man right between the eyes, a man who had
just shot him in the back, in the trenches of WW1, was considered a
minor victory for discipline and the maintenance of good order.

The Scots phrase, "Gallows Humour", almost certainly derives from the
Borderers' love of jokes about death.

During the various wars of the 20th century, many Borderers served in
the King's Own Scottish Borderers.

Here are some modern Reivers riding the bounds:

http://guide.visitscotland.com/vs/image ... iels_1.jpg

And here is a statue of a Border Reiver, or as they called themselves,
Moss troopers, outside the Burgh building in Galashiels:
http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/g ... rooper.jpg

It is said that their horsemanship and ability to move unseen by night
was legendary, and among their many exploits was breaking their family
members out of the various jails which housed them through the
centuries, from Berwick to Carlisle.

A BBC-TV series called "The Borderers" in the 1960s ran for some time
Many of the English audience said it was too brutal to watch.


The Border Ballads, collected by Francis J. Child, many of which can
still be heard sung in Appalachia and othe parts of the US south,
often with names changed to fit local incidents, mostly murderous, are
considered to be the finest corpus of ballads known.

Here is a sample of a well-known Border ballad about a lover who
vanished and was drowned - "Willie's Droon'd in Yarrow" (a Border
River).

Willie's Droon'd in Yarrow.mp3, sung by Gordeanna McCulloch.

http://tinyurl.com/2xwczm

"Willie's rare and Willy's fair,
And Willie's wondrous bonny;
And Willie heght to marry me, (promised)
Gin e'er he married ony. (if)

"Yestreen I made my Bed fu' brade, (full broad)
The Night I'll make it narrow;
For a' the live-long Winter's Night,
I lie twin'd of my Marrow. (deprived of my mate)

"O came ye by yon Water-side,
Pu'd ye the Rose or Lilly;
Or came ye by yon Meadow green,
Or saw ye my sweet Willy?"

She sought him East, she sought him West,
She sought him brade and narrow; (broad)
Sine in the clifting of a craig (cleft of a crag)
She found him droon'd in Yarrow. (drowned/local river)

And here is a song about my ancestor, Little Jock Elliot: (no tune,
I'm afraid)

"Little Jock Elliot"

Wha daur meddle wi' me?
Wha daur meddle wi' me?
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

I ride on my fleet-footed grey,
My sword hanging doun by my knee,
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

In raids I ride always the foremost,
My straik is the first in melee,
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

I ne'er was afraid of a foe,
Or yield I liefer wad die;
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

I've vanquished the Queen's Lieutenant,
And garr'd her troopers flee;
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

Wha daur meddle wi' me?
Wha daur meddle wi' me?
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

A question I thoroughly subscribe to.

Borders... Barely Scottish...

ET ALII.

DSH
-------------------------------------------------

"allan connochie" <conncohies@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:kJ9yi.19761$mo.8579@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:tS2yi.39$Jp2.1081@eagle.america.net..

Yes...

So What?

Talk about off-the-wall responses...

Totally irrelevant to the thread.

You asked which Scots migrated in the largest numbers. It was the Scots of
the late 19thC and 20thC who migrated in the largest numbers. I answered
your question!

Allan




The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Cory Bhreckan

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Cory Bhreckan » 20 aug 2007 19:33:47

Bryn wrote:
In article <FXiyi.35749$1G1.27295@newsfe2-win.ntli.net>, allan connochie
conncohies@noemail.com> writes
"Bryn" <bryn@finhall.gremlinsdemon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VM0lHGAPIYyGFwx7@finhall.demon.co.uk...
In article <Lncyi.50$Jp2.1060@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes
Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

You don't READ well.

FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?

Borders... Barely Scottish...
Oooh! Mark my words you'r doomed....................doomed I say :-)

Allan


I've been awful bored lately...



Then drag out the Paddington again.

--
"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall

Dolores C. Phifer

RE: Linder Research (Bavaria and Baden Germany, Canada to Lo

Legg inn av Dolores C. Phifer » 20 aug 2007 19:36:21

Hello DSH. Sorry, no websites. The one link no longer works. My cousin
moved again. A few of us cousins have personal stuff we are working on.
One of my cousins does have a web page, but she concentrates on the PIQUETTE
ancestors down. PIQUETTE was originally from France. After talking to a
few PIQUETTEs in Canada it is very possible that our PIQUETTE may have been
one of the French Canadians that were removed from Canada and relocated to
Louisiana USA. We haven't found his ship records in Baltimore MD where we
find him generations later. Our Daniel PIQUETTE became very active in
Baltimore and married Sarah Ann French, sister of Capt Thomas Henry French,
7th Calvary, survivor of Custer's Last Stand. He survived, as did a few
other who were up on the hill with Reno. I have cousins near
DC (USA) who still have some of his personal effects. Their daughter
Hannora 'Nora' PIQUETTE married Louis LINDER (Sr.). These are my 4th
great-grandparents. They lived and died in Baltimore MD (USA). I am
communications with a few LINDERs in SC who believe that my Louis/Lewis may
be related to their family. One family story is that they lived near
Linderhof Castle in Bavaria... hence their name. I've been to the Records
at the local LDS Center and haven't gotten through all of the stuff that I
copied yet.
Regards, Dolores

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 4:44 AM
Subject: Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks
LINDER -- VERY interesting surname.
Is there a webpage or two?
Aloha,
DSH
----------------------------------------------

"Dolores C. Phifer" <doloresc.phifer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.866.1187586873.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Hello Everybody.
.... I took over my mom's side of the family tree back in 1986 when my
cousin turned it over to me so that he could work on his mother's side and I
agreed to work on mom's dad's (LINDER, Bavaria and Baden) side.
.... Thanks again for sharing. Later, Dolores

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: Best Free Genealogy Program???

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dolores C. Phifer" <doloresc.phifer@comcast.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:37 PM
Subject: Fw: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 20 aug 2007 19:49:35

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:dpkjc3l5l62vikasbnol6g37qo00ciavc0@4ax.com...

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:59:11 +0100, Bryn
bryn@finhall.gremlinsdemon.co.uk> wrote:

In article <Lncyi.50$Jp2.1060@eagle.america.net>, D. Spencer Hines
panther@excelsior.com> writes

Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World,
Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

You don't READ well.

FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

The Grahams were originally from the English side of the Border.

ARMSTRONGS?

Johnny Armstrong of Gillnockie was the most famous of them all and
there are several ballads still extant concerning his exploits.

"The Steel Bonnets" a book by George MacDonald Fraser of "Flashman"
fame describes the Border families as "slick professional gangsters
who made the Chicago Mob look like bumbling amateurs".

The period of their ascendancy seems to have been from the 14th to the
16th century.

Several posters in SCS are descended from the Border Reivers
(Raiders), myself included.

As am I. Some of my ancestors.

Our ancestors were as hard as nails and
probably the cruellest people who ever stalked the "The Debatable
Lands", a name given to the Borders as neither England nor Scotland
were anxious to lay claim to them and thus accept responsibility for
the brutal rule of the Border country by the great riding families and
their willingness to switch sides at the drop of a golden guinea...

Most lived by robbery, murder and blackmail; the word of the time for
protection money, which my mother's family claims to have given to the
English language. Border pride in this ancestry is still very much
alive and well. Enforcing the payment of blackmail was usually done by
hanging a member of a defaulting family, including any children, each
time a payment was missed.

To this day the descendants of the Border Reivers are considered "Hard
Men", especially in Ulster, where many fled to avoid execution. Border
pride in this ancestry is commemorated every summer by "Common
Ridings" when mounted horsemen ride the boundaries of their various
towns.

The Grahams, a particularly sought after group by the forces of law
and order, fled to Northern Ireland and Holland and many changed their
name to Maharg, (Graham spelled backwards) and can be found to this
day in phonebooks in the UK, US, Canada, etc.

Neither the Scottish nor the English would admit that the Borderers
were their citizens because of their wish to avoid paying reparations
for their depradations. However when James VI of Scotland became James
I of England, he attacked the Borderers with his now-combined armies
and the records show that many members of my mother's family were
caught and hanged in James' attempts to exterminate them all. However,
the record also shows that many with their surname were still being
hanged some forty years later and the family obviously survives to
this day and was even recently graced by a visit from Prince Charles!

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archiv ... s_ewe.html

Andrew Elliot, who entertained the Prince, is my cousin.

King James, in considering the appeal against the death sentence of
one of my more famous ancestors is reputed to have delivered his
verdict with the words, "He'll be none the worse for a good hanging".
The ancestor duly swung from a gallows.

My most famous Border ancestor, "Wee Jock Elliot of the Park", when
meeting with Lord Darnley, husband of Mary Queen of Scots, to discuss
a peace treaty, stabbed Darnley in the guts with a knife, but was
himself stabbed in return (according the family story, both men had
sworn they were unarmed, but treachery was a way of life in those
days). Wee Jock ,although badly wounded, managed to escape the men
hunting him down and lived to fight another day.

Of course, today, we are all sweetness and light, as epitomised by
myself. I might add, that the record of some of the families of other
posters to SCS would sicken a dog, but for fear of retaliation, I
shall refrain from identifying them...

I might add that my family was known for drowning their prisoners in
streams, rather than hanging them. This probably relates to the belief
that a rope used to hang someone was cursed in some way and could be
a nagging perennial expense, although at other times, ropes which had
hanged someone were considered blessed and we often sold to buyers by
the inch, being cut into pieces as required.

My personal picture of a Border Reiver is that of a man sitting on a
horse, leaning on a spear with his shoulder which is pinning an
enemy messenger to the ground through the neck, while the rider reads
the message he was carrying. I don't remember where I saw this
picture, but I do remember the rumble of approval from the adults and
the remarks concerning its life-like quality. Nobody seemed at all
bothered by its content and goes a long way to explaining why my Great
Uncle Walter's shooting of a man right between the eyes, a man who had
just shot him in the back, in the trenches of WW1, was considered a
minor victory for discipline and the maintenance of good order.

Can you show us the picture?

The Scots phrase, "Gallows Humour", almost certainly derives from the
Borderers' love of jokes about death.

During the various wars of the 20th century, many Borderers served in
the King's Own Scottish Borderers.

Here are some modern Reivers riding the bounds:

http://guide.visitscotland.com/vs/image ... iels_1.jpg

And here is a statue of a Border Reiver, or as they called themselves,
Moss troopers, outside the Burgh building in Galashiels:
http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/g ... rooper.jpg

It is said that their horsemanship and ability to move unseen by night
was legendary, and among their many exploits was breaking their family
members out of the various jails which housed them through the
centuries, from Berwick to Carlisle.

A BBC-TV series called "The Borderers" in the 1960s ran for some time
Many of the English audience said it was too brutal to watch.

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1968/chapter1.htm

The Border Ballads, collected by Francis J. Child, many of which can
still be heard sung in Appalachia and othe parts of the US south,
often with names changed to fit local incidents, mostly murderous, are
considered to be the finest corpus of ballads known.

Here is a sample of a well-known Border ballad about a lover who
vanished and was drowned - "Willie's Droon'd in Yarrow" (a Border
River).

Willie's Droon'd in Yarrow.mp3, sung by Gordeanna McCulloch.

http://tinyurl.com/2xwczm

"Willie's rare and Willy's fair,
And Willie's wondrous bonny;
And Willie heght to marry me, (promised)
Gin e'er he married ony. (if)

"Yestreen I made my Bed fu' brade, (full broad)
The Night I'll make it narrow;
For a' the live-long Winter's Night,
I lie twin'd of my Marrow. (deprived of my mate)

"O came ye by yon Water-side,
Pu'd ye the Rose or Lilly;
Or came ye by yon Meadow green,
Or saw ye my sweet Willy?"

She sought him East, she sought him West,
She sought him brade and narrow; (broad)
Sine in the clifting of a craig (cleft of a crag)
She found him droon'd in Yarrow. (drowned/local river)

And here is a song about my ancestor, Little Jock Elliot: (no tune,
I'm afraid)

"Little Jock Elliot"

Wha daur meddle wi' me?
Wha daur meddle wi' me?
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

I ride on my fleet-footed grey,
My sword hanging doun by my knee,
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

In raids I ride always the foremost,
My straik is the first in melee,
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

I ne'er was afraid of a foe,
Or yield I liefer wad die;
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

I've vanquished the Queen's Lieutenant,
And garr'd her troopers flee;
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

Wha daur meddle wi' me?
Wha daur meddle wi' me?
My name is little Jock Elliot,
And wha daur meddle wi' me?

A question I thoroughly subscribe to.

Borders... Barely Scottish...

ET ALII.

DSH

Leticia Cluff

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 20 aug 2007 20:03:16

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:15:19 GMT, "allan connochie"
<conncohies@noemail.com> wrote:

"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4hbjc3dvnioiohviuhdm66hgtgphup31j1@4ax.com...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:35:31 +1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
panther@excelsior.com> wrote:

Nope.

I asked about the migration of Scots as an AFTERMATH of Culloden.

LOOK at the Subject Line AND the POST, which read:

"Which Scots and which Scottish Families migrated to the New World, Canada
and the United States, in the largest numbers?"

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Britannicus Traductus Sum

I see you have corrected the slovenly error, but what happened to the
customary "Recte"?

Why do you correct some errors silently, in true 1984 style?

And why do you not thank your betters when they try to help you on
your long and painful journey toward a belated education?


You don't READ well.


Mr. Connochie did not misread anything in your poorly worded question.


FAMILY NAMES REQUIRED.

GRAHAMS?

ARMSTRONGS?


Methinks you are in the wrong time and place. Your ancestors were
deported long before Culloden, and from a different, more debatable
part of Scotland.

Come the revolution you're up against the wall..........with
Bryn.........but he gets shot first :-)

More seriously though the border as such is more or less as it was long
before the Wars of Indepedence. Certainly in the eastern half of country the
current border, Berwick aside, is more or less the same as it was after the
Battle of Carham in 1018. In the west it was set slightly later but not
much. The so called Debateable Land is only a small piece of coutryside near
the Canonbie area.

Sorry. I thought the "debatable lands" referred to the western borders
in general, where those colorful Grahams and Armstrongs et alii
dressed entirely in garments of brown paper and were notorious
rustlers.

My knowledge of the subject comes second-hand from my husband's
reading of a book on the topic by his favorite author. George
MacDonald Fraser. (Boys will be boys.)

Now to a related terminological inaccuracy: Why do some people refer
to all ballads as "border ballads"? Mr. Child's admirable collection
is entitled "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads," and while it
does contain some ballads about the border reivers, far from all the
items in the collection originate from or are set in the borders.

There were of course periods when the English dales
recognised out of necessity the Scottish king as their lord and likewise
there were periods of English occupation of southern Scottish strongholds,
but that is a different matter. By comparison much of the Hebrides didn't
become part of the Scottish kingdom for about a quarter of a millenium after
Carham. The Northern Isles were even later. When they were basically ruled
from Norway the Scottish Borders were an integral part, and possibly richest
part of the Scottish kingdom. Roxburgh and Berwick were at one time arguably
the two most important burghs.

Would I be right in suspecting that you come from one of those two
places?


Tish

John Briggs

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av John Briggs » 20 aug 2007 20:27:42

Leticia Cluff wrote:
Now to a related terminological inaccuracy: Why do some people refer
to all ballads as "border ballads"? Mr. Child's admirable collection
is entitled "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads," and while it
does contain some ballads about the border reivers, far from all the
items in the collection originate from or are set in the borders.

Probably because Sir Walter Scott entitled his collection "The Minstrelsy of
the Scottish Border", and the term stuck.
--
John Briggs

Dave

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Dave » 20 aug 2007 20:35:46

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:16:24 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca>
wrote:

Several posters in SCS are descended from the Border Reivers
(Raiders), myself included.

Your mother certainly put it about a bit. If it's not border reivers
it's Bonnie Prince whatsit or Robert the Bruce.

John Brandon

Re: MI5 Persecution: David Hepworth (2) 16/5/97 (17651)

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 aug 2007 20:47:37

Can you please stop posting all this MI5 bull? It has such an
unattractive look, cluttering up the pristine (!) newsgroup.


Subject: David Hepworth (GLR) is taking the piss
Newsgroups: uk.misc
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Summary:
Keywords:

Last night (21/Feb/97), I was listening to BBC GLR. You have to understand that
I was listening by stealth. Back in 1990 I used to have Capital blaring out of

Not much changes. Today I was listening again to David Hepworth's show on GLR,
having more or less waded in on it by accident. Here is the exchange;

David: "we have executive drivetime, we have Brian in charge of the prize
cupboard. Brian it's not a bad prize cupboard this week is it?"

Brian: "no David it's an absolute (EMPHASIS) embarrassment (END-EMPHASIS) of
prizes this evening" (laughter)

David: "what have we got?"

Brian: "well in my left hand alone we've got that .... Gary Clale, I don't know
if you remember him obviously still alive and kicking...."

David: "Rock and roll spelling test is your first opportunity to take advantage
of this embarrassment of prizes"

What do I read into this exchange? The laughter after the word "embarrassment"
shows they're aware of the last complaint I made on usenet (copied by
snail-mail to them). The "left hand" business is I think a coded way of calling
me a w***er (the term would be better applied to Brian and David).

I have a tape of this exchange, and will eventually get around to posting it on
the website.
........................................................................
Subject: Re: David Hepworth (GLR) is taking the piss
Newsgroups: uk.misc
References: <E9xMvw.4H2.0.bloor@torfree.net
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution: uk

I don't understand. Why has nobody replied to this post? You keep on asking for
evidence, then I present you with something that looks very much like evidence,
and everybody just ignores it. OK I haven't posted the actual sound extract,
and it still isn't proof.

Perhaps everybody just finds it all too boring and dull. Should I start
spamming again from one of those nice anonymous remailers to wake everyone up?
Now there's a thought.
........................................................................

Mike Corley <bu...@torfree.net> wrote:
I don't understand. Why has nobody replied to this post?

Cos you don't reply to our points - you're ignoring us, why shouldn't
we ignore you?

You keep on asking for evidence, then I present you with something
that looks very much like evidence,

No you don't, you post something which could _never_, _ever_ be construed
as referring to yourself. Can't you see it? No, of course you can't,
you've an illness.

Perhaps everybody just finds it all too boring and dull. Should I start
spamming again from one of those nice anonymous remailers to wake everyone up?
Now there's a thought.

And I see you've started. Give it a rest, Mike, unless you're prepared to
enter into proper discussion.

--
Illtud Daniel idan...@jesus.ox.ac.uk
-see Twin Town- -Buy Apollo 440-
........................................................................

Mike Corley <bu...@torfree.net> wrote:
I don't understand. Why has nobody replied to this post?

Never read it. Repost?

Smid
........................................................................
In article <5lhg3i$...@news.ox.ac.uk>,

Illtud Daniel <idan...@jesus.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
[reposted]

Brian: "no David it's an absolute (EMPHASIS) embarrassment (END-EMPHASIS) of
prizes this evening" (laughter)

Uh-Uh. He's on for a bad attack, if he's singling out words which are
apparently attacking him. He previously restricted himself to just
dialog about the mentally ill.

TAKE YOUR MEDICATION MIKE.

Smid
........................................................................

17651

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

Gjest

Re: Somerset land grants by William

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 21:05:01

On Aug 20, 4:48 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 20 Aug., 03:34, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:



On Aug 19, 8:00 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

On 18 Aug., 22:41, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:

G'day Folks,
This is my first post to this group. I have a problem which I hope
that someone can resolve.
Does anyone have any knowledge of this Adam De Coveston or can you
point me to any readily available source where I can identify who he
was, so that I can extend the lineage further back.

G'day, Rfer.

Keats-Rohan, 'Domesday Descendants', p 413 has details as follows:

Adam de Covestone, son of Geoffrey I de Covestone, and father of
Geoffrey II de Covestone, who held his grandfather's fee of the abbot
of Glastonsbury in 1166.

Chronologically, it would therefore seem extremely unlikely that Adam
was active at the time of the Conquest, or received land from William
I.

I have several
lines going back 3000 years and feel that he must tie in to at least
one of them.

Is this a typo for 300? No human genealogy is provable further than
some 1600 years, so any 3000 year genealogy is not valid.

Regards, Michael

G'day Michael,
I go back several generations before the Geoffrey and Adam whom you
mention - probably 2 more, to Geoffrey father of that Adam and Adam
father of the latter Geoffrey. This would take me to the grandfather
whom you mention, who had the original grant.

Hi Rfer

I'm afraid you misread what I posted. What Keats-Rohan says is that
Geoffrey II, son of Adam, son of Geoffrey I, held in 1166 the land
that his grandfather (Geoffrey I) held previously. Thus, the
genealogy is traced back only to Geoffrey I. There is no mention of
an earlier Adam. I have also checked Keats-Rohan's companion volume,
Domesday People, and the Domesday Book itself, and cannot find an
earlier Adam that fits the bill. I would be extremely doubtful that
the name Ascelin or Azelin equates to Adam (or to Alfred for that
matter) but others here will be far more knowledgeable than I am on
that score.

I am curious as to why you say that no human genealogy is provable
further back than 1600 years - i.e. before 400 AD +/-. There are
written records that precede that date and histories were written of
the people then, which include a potted genealogy. When several such
documents have been found, I would consider the case to be proved. Are
you going to say that the lineage of Julius Caesar or the descendancy
of the Pharohs of Egypt are not firmly established? I think that a LOT
of people would shoot you down in flames over an assertion such as you
have made.

No doubt they would like to try, but they would all be wrong, because
it is not an assertion; it is a fact. As a genealogist, I wish as
much as anyone that it wasn't so! There are many claimed genealogies
going back to BC, but every one of them is either multiple guesswork,
or fairy-tales, or lies - or a mixture of all three. If you would
like to post some of your 3000-year old genealogies here, we can
examine them and explain where they break or fall down.

I have never accepted the first thing that I found on the 'Net and
have always insisted on finding several sites which, in terms of fuzzy
logic, agree with one another. I have looked for as many as possible
and then take the consensus of opinion.

This may be fuzzy, but unfortunately it's not logic. The chances are
that the multitude of internet sites have all borrowed their incorrect
data from each other. Just because a mistake is broadcast by several
websites does not change its erroneousness. A better methodology is
to go for quality rather than quantity: i.e. which sites show their
references, and tie their statements back to primary sources. The
vast majority of internet genealogy is, sadly, rubbish.

My opinion is that I can never
access the original documents, here in Australia, and, even if I
could, I would not be able to read them, as I do not have the language
scholarship to do so. So I have to rely on the scholarship of others
and what is posted on the 'Net.

As noted above, much of what is posted on the net is not scholarship,
but blind copyship. You would be amazed to know what primary sources
are available to you, even in Australia. Most of the State or older
University libraries will have runs of primary UK documents in various
record series, including administration records, Visitations and the
like. And the net does have some good stuff too - for example, as
Will Johnson has recently pointed out here, the UK's Public Record
Office has much of its primary material online atwww.pro.gov.ukwhile
many of the county record offices either have their own searchable
websites or their material is onwww.a2a.org.uk("access to
archives"). Even Google Books and the Gallica website will enable you
to view older published sources. The vast majority of these are in
English.

What I am proposing is, of course, far more rigorous and challenging,
but it is also far more useful and rewarding.

And remember, many of the listers here are always happy to help out
during the process!

Kind regards, Michael

G'day Michael,
My meaning when I specified fuzzy logic was that these sites do not
present the black and white information all neatly set out with
exactly the same spelling of the name and the exact date for the
event. There are spelling variations and there is a small range of
dates. The names need to be recognisably the same and the dates need
to lie within a suitably small range. That gives me some comfort that
they are not doing what you have suggested and simply copying someone
else's errors, but rather, making some of their own based on access to
the original documents.

As for access to the original documents, have you ever tried to access
such documents in Australia? You would have a bad time of it. People
from overseas do not believe me when I tell them how lucky they are to
have access to original documents. I know the benefits that I have had
when I have been able to get my hands on original, handwritten
documents here, as opposed to finding extracted information that has
been published in any form.

Don't tell me that ytou are going to say that the legal documents held
in the Jersey Heritage Trust where they outline that Joe is the son of
Sam,husband of Jane and grandson of Bill are not to be believed.
Jersey law is based on European law, not British law and these
practices have been going on for centuries. This is why I believe that
the ancient genealogies can be built up by examining several documents
relating to the same person. And I am not talking the common hoi
poloi, but rather the ruling class, about whom histories have been
written, during their lifetime or shortly after they lived, and who
also signed documents and were involved in court proceedings.

I hope that you have read my reply to Christopher and seen the
explanation of my signature block.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av WJhonson » 20 aug 2007 21:06:16

<<In a message dated 08/20/07 11:56:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
http://books.google.com/books?id=tXIBAA ... #PPA813,M1 >>

--------------------------
Thank you Douglas.
This shorter link might work better
http://books.google.com/books?id=tXIBAA ... =RA1-PA679

The longer one above appears to point after the end of the book, so most people would just see the Title page (as the error-catch).

Why does Philip here call himself the Duke of Burgundy *and also* the Count of Burgundy ?

I was under the impression that once you were a Duke the Count title was sort-of obsoleted. Or were there two places called Burgundy here ?

Will

WJhonson

Re: Maud de Holand, wife of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., and Wal

Legg inn av WJhonson » 20 aug 2007 21:06:16

<<In a message dated 08/20/07 11:56:20 Pacific Standard Time, royalancestry@msn.com writes:
http://books.google.com/books?id=tXIBAA ... #PPA813,M1 >>

--------------------------
Thank you Douglas.
This shorter link might work better
http://books.google.com/books?id=tXIBAA ... =RA1-PA679

The longer one above appears to point after the end of the book, so most people would just see the Title page (as the error-catch).

Why does Philip here call himself the Duke of Burgundy *and also* the Count of Burgundy ?

I was under the impression that once you were a Duke the Count title was sort-of obsoleted. Or were there two places called Burgundy here ?

Will

Leticia Cluff

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 20 aug 2007 21:07:21

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:27:42 GMT, "John Briggs"
<john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Leticia Cluff wrote:

Now to a related terminological inaccuracy: Why do some people refer
to all ballads as "border ballads"? Mr. Child's admirable collection
is entitled "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads," and while it
does contain some ballads about the border reivers, far from all the
items in the collection originate from or are set in the borders.

Probably because Sir Walter Scott entitled his collection "The Minstrelsy of
the Scottish Border", and the term stuck.

That's a very plausible explanation. Thank you.

Tish

Gjest

Re: Somerset land grants by William

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 21:10:54

On Aug 20, 7:55 pm, SomersetSue <SueBu...@aol.com> wrote:
Just a quick comment on Somerset place names.

Stawell and Stowell are two different villages. Stawell is on the
southern slopes of the Polden Hills and is pronounced Stawl.
Stowell is near Templecombe and not far from Sherborne.

I thought I'd mention it in case it was being assumed that they were
the same place with spelling variants.

As for descents from Adam.........well with geologists and
paleoanthropologists in my family, I am as we say in the UK
"gobsmacked" to think there are people taking those seriously. Ah well
each to their own.

Sue

G'day Sue,
You guessed correctly, I had assumed that the translation resulted in
the different spellings. Thanks for setting me straight. A lot of
people out here would assume as I did.

The descendancies from Adam and Eve give me a bit of a giggle. I am
not hugely religious and thus do not implicitly believe the parable
about Adam and Eve. If it were true, where did Cain and Abel get their
wives from. They would have to be sisters and we are all terribly
inbred. As I said to Christopher, the first thing that I look for is
the error. And there is inevitably one there.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue

allan connochie

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av allan connochie » 20 aug 2007 21:13:11

"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hnnjc39hljfi8ko2v3tifb75ldfi0me8s9@4ax.com...
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:15:19 GMT, "allan connochie"
conncohies@noemail.com> wrote:

More seriously though the border as such is more or less as it was long
before the Wars of Indepedence. Certainly in the eastern half of country
the
current border, Berwick aside, is more or less the same as it was after
the
Battle of Carham in 1018. In the west it was set slightly later but not
much. The so called Debateable Land is only a small piece of coutryside
near
the Canonbie area.

Sorry. I thought the "debatable lands" referred to the western borders
in general, where those colorful Grahams and Armstrongs et alii
dressed entirely in garments of brown paper and were notorious
rustlers.

My knowledge of the subject comes second-hand from my husband's
reading of a book on the topic by his favorite author. George
MacDonald Fraser. (Boys will be boys.)

GMF actually describes the extent of the Debateable Land in chapter 33 of
"The Steel Bonnets". My version also has an inset map at the back which
shows it's extent. The part of the area which is now in Scotland is no more
than about 7 miles long and not much more than a couple of miles wide. There
is a slightly smaller part now in England. Basically this western extreme of
the border was disputed. Neither side would admit that the other owned the
land so neither side could be ultimately be held responsible for the actions
of the inhabitants. The Armstrongs settled the Scottish side in large
numbers and the Grahams were paricularly numerous on the English and both
lots basically did what they wanted. Both sides would devastate the area
every now and again. The English proposed that they take over the whole area
but the Scots refused and eventually the French ambassador drew the line.



Now to a related terminological inaccuracy: Why do some people refer
to all ballads as "border ballads"? Mr. Child's admirable collection
is entitled "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads," and while it
does contain some ballads about the border reivers, far from all the
items in the collection originate from or are set in the borders.


You are quite right. The Borders does have a particularly rich heritage in
ballads but of course not all ballads are Border Ballads. Some examples of
Border Ballads are "Battle of Otterburn" "Dowie Dens of Yarrow" "Kinmont
Willie" "Hughie the Graeme" and "Tam Lin"




There were of course periods when the English dales
recognised out of necessity the Scottish king as their lord and likewise
there were periods of English occupation of southern Scottish strongholds,
but that is a different matter. By comparison much of the Hebrides didn't
become part of the Scottish kingdom for about a quarter of a millenium
after
Carham. The Northern Isles were even later. When they were basically ruled
from Norway the Scottish Borders were an integral part, and possibly
richest
part of the Scottish kingdom. Roxburgh and Berwick were at one time
arguably
the two most important burghs.

Would I be right in suspecting that you come from one of those two
places?

I live in Kelso. The ruins of Roxburgh Castle and the area where the burgh
stood are now just on the outskirts of Kelso.

cheers

Allan

Tish

Gjest

Re: Somerset land grants by William

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 aug 2007 22:14:06

On 20 Aug., 21:05, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:
As for access to the original documents, have you ever tried to access
such documents in Australia?

Yes, actually; I am an Australian.

There's much more there than you give credit for!

Regards, Michael

WJhonson

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av WJhonson » 20 aug 2007 22:59:07

<<In a message dated 08/19/07 00:30:38 Pacific Standard Time, mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
In 1459, a marriage settlement was arranged for Elizabeth, the
daughter of John IV Savage, Esq. (d.1495),
and John Leeke, the son aged 7, of William Leeke of Sutton in the
Dale, Derbyshire : >>

--------------------------------------
I think it would be helpful to see the exact wording of this settlement.
A 1459 settlement would not say "d 1495", and to my mind a 1459 does not preclude Elizabeth from being his sister, not his daughter. His father John was yet living, not dead until 1464 himself.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Leek/Leake ancestry of HM The Queen

Legg inn av WJhonson » 20 aug 2007 22:59:07

<<In a message dated 08/19/07 00:30:38 Pacific Standard Time, mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
In 1459, a marriage settlement was arranged for Elizabeth, the
daughter of John IV Savage, Esq. (d.1495),
and John Leeke, the son aged 7, of William Leeke of Sutton in the
Dale, Derbyshire : >>

--------------------------------------
I think it would be helpful to see the exact wording of this settlement.
A 1459 settlement would not say "d 1495", and to my mind a 1459 does not preclude Elizabeth from being his sister, not his daughter. His father John was yet living, not dead until 1464 himself.

Will Johnson

allan connochie

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av allan connochie » 20 aug 2007 23:03:24

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:OWlyi.13488$ka7.11526@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
Leticia Cluff wrote:

Now to a related terminological inaccuracy: Why do some people refer
to all ballads as "border ballads"? Mr. Child's admirable collection
is entitled "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads," and while it
does contain some ballads about the border reivers, far from all the
items in the collection originate from or are set in the borders.

Probably because Sir Walter Scott entitled his collection "The Minstrelsy
of the Scottish Border", and the term stuck.

Mind you from volume one, apart from Sir Patrick Spens, basically all the
ballads included are almost certainly from the Borders, admittedly English
as well as Scottish. I think some more general works crept into the other
volumes.


Allan

Leticia Cluff

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 20 aug 2007 23:12:53

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:03:24 GMT, "allan connochie"
<conncohies@noemail.com> wrote:

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:OWlyi.13488$ka7.11526@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
Leticia Cluff wrote:

Now to a related terminological inaccuracy: Why do some people refer
to all ballads as "border ballads"? Mr. Child's admirable collection
is entitled "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads," and while it
does contain some ballads about the border reivers, far from all the
items in the collection originate from or are set in the borders.

Probably because Sir Walter Scott entitled his collection "The Minstrelsy
of the Scottish Border", and the term stuck.

Mind you from volume one, apart from Sir Patrick Spens, basically all the
ballads included are almost certainly from the Borders, admittedly English
as well as Scottish. I think some more general works crept into the other
volumes.

Yes. About forty Robin Hood ballads crept into volume 3 :-)

Tish

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 aug 2007 23:29:31

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:xsiyi.65$Jp2.1126@eagle.america.net...
Peter Stewart, our Tasmanian Devil in SGM, obviously has not the slightest
idea of what a Top Banana is.

He needs to do some Basic Research,

Amusing...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Hines has no idea how to compose a simple phrase in Latin. He needs to do
some Basic Learning.

"Top banana" on the other hand indicates the top-billed act in a variaty
show or the leading person in a group. Nothing smart about it, the harping
use of the phrase by Hines is a dead giveaway of his own warped and
frustrated desire to be seen as the most prominent critic of others on
Usenet. But he doesn't cut it, because we all know he is a phoney: he uses
Latin tags to show of an elite education that he demonstrably missed.

For anyone who misssed it in October 2005, when he posted his own undoing in
this aspect of his pretense, I have copied below his post asserting a quite
wrong translation of the Latin term, "non sequitur", AFTER this had been
correctly given by me. Hines is not only unable to read and understand the
simplest Latin text, but he purports to impose his ignorance on everyone
else.

Needless to say, he won't admit the error, despite this being verifiable by
any reader who checks an elementary Latin grammar.

Peter Stewart


From: "D. Spencer Hines" < poguemidden@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: _Non Sequitur_
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:42:23 -0000
References: <Yxa9d.17317$5O5.5889@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
<20041007125319.44745.qmail@web41724.mail.yahoo.com>
<cMj9d.17653$5O5.8570@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
""Sequor" primarily means "to follow", and "sequitur" is the third
person indicative active, present tense, meaning "he/she/it follows"."

Peter Stewart

Actually, Peter, _SEQUITUR_ is third person, indicative, PASSIVE,
present tense -- meaning [literally, among other meanings] "he/she/it is
[is being] followed."

So, NON SEQUITUR literally means -- "it [the logic] is NOT being
followed" -- but your original, correct, "it does not follow" parses
better.

Cheers And Aloha,

Spencer

Peter Stewart

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 aug 2007 23:39:35

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:26jyi.67$Jp2.656@eagle.america.net...
Peter thinks a Top Banana is something he sees through the glory hole in
one of those bath houses he frequents...

So naturally he looks up to them.

Another repellent fantasy of Hines, projected onto someone else so that he
can pretend to ridicule it. So the muddy wheel of his self-contempt turns,
and turns, and turns....going nowhere but endlessly downhill. Who but a
prurient obsessive, or a patron of the places, would ever employ such an
outlandish term for a mere hole in a bathhouse wall?

Quite obviously I didn't bring up the concept of a "Top Banana" in the first
place - and even Hines applied this equally to Renia Simmonds.

But then, presumably, Hines as always takes himself as his reference point,
and his fruity phallic imaginings are of the banana variety that
costermongers call the Lady Finger.

Peter Stewart

John Briggs

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av John Briggs » 21 aug 2007 00:11:36

allan connochie wrote:
"John Briggs" wrote in message
Leticia Cluff wrote:

Now to a related terminological inaccuracy: Why do some people refer
to all ballads as "border ballads"? Mr. Child's admirable collection
is entitled "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads," and while it
does contain some ballads about the border reivers, far from all the
items in the collection originate from or are set in the borders.

Probably because Sir Walter Scott entitled his collection "The
Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border", and the term stuck.

Mind you from volume one, apart from Sir Patrick Spens, basically all
the ballads included are almost certainly from the Borders,
admittedly English as well as Scottish. I think some more general
works crept into the other volumes.

Where "The Twa Corbies" came from is anyone's guess. I'm still puzzling
over its relationship to Ravenscroft's "The Three Ravens". (And whether
*that* has medieval roots, of course.)
--
John Briggs

WJhonson

Re: Clues from Lists-Indexes, vol. 39 (Chancery Proc., Bridg

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 02:27:23

<<In a message dated 08/16/07 15:30:34 Pacific Standard Time, starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
p. 312

--Whittington, Elizabeth, widow, and another
--Leigh, Theophilus, and others
--1694; Taynton [Gloucs.]; personal estate of Thomas Pury >>

--------------
Stirnet doesn't offer much in the way of dates but here is something useful
http://content.ancestry.com/iexec/?htx= ... rc=&pid=40
Chester, Joseph Lemuel, ed. The Marriage, Baptismal, and Burial Registers of the Collegiate Church or Abbey of St. Peter, Westminster. London, England: Harleian Society, 1876.
pg 29 of 63
footnote 2 : "Theophilus Leigh, of Adlestrop, co Gloucester, Esq, son of William Legh, Esq, by his third wife Joan, dau of Thomas Perry of the city of Gloucester, Esq. He died 10 Feb 1724/5, aged about 78. She his second wife, dau of James eighth Lord Chandos, by Elizabeth eldest dau and coheir of Sir Henry Bernard of London, Kt. She died 13 June 1703, aged about 35.

Dolores C. Phifer

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder

Legg inn av Dolores C. Phifer » 21 aug 2007 02:51:42

Sorry for the duplicate. My herd dog herded (nips clothing) me to take her
out earlier and when she pulled my arm and it disappeared and so I rewrote
another one.
Dolores

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dolores C. Phifer" <doloresc.phifer@comcast.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 12:37 PM
Subject: Fw: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder

WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 03:53:30

Something that just doesn't work for me is this scenario.

Earl Aelfgar is outlawed, joins up with Gruffyd and they make war. They are then reconciled, then Aelfgar is outlawed again and disappears.

Meanwhile, back on the farm as we say, Gruffyd, supposedly Ealdgyth's husband, is "slain by his own men" 5 Aug 1063

And then Ealdgyth ends up a huge heiress married to Harold the King who himself dies 14 Oct 1066 at the Battle of Hastings.

If all of this is correct, then Ealdgyth had what we'd call a "rather tumultuous life" and someone should write a long romance novel about her, and make their fortune.

But wait! That's not all! as we say on Ronco television.

Aledgedly her *other* grandfather Sigeferth "a Danish nobleman" was murdered in 1015 and his widow also conveniently called Ealdgyth turns around and marries King Edmund "Ironside" who then dies a year later on 30 Nov 1016.

It all sounds a little too too much.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 04:16:23

Provided the identification of Earl Morcar can be firmly shown, onomastically it might be possible to hypothecize that he is the great-grandson of Morcar of Northumbria.

I'd like to suggest Ealdgyth, Aeldgifu and Edith are all the same name.

Then we have Eadgifu, the Queen of Edward I, who was King 901-924
And Aelfgifu (Elgiva) the Queen of Aethelred, King from 978 to 1013

And Ealdgyth (Aeglithia) the wife of Maldred and mother of Gospatric, Earl of Northumerland.

And don't forget St Aelfgifu the Queen of King Edmund, King from 941 to 946

All these women appear to be variations on the same underlying spoken form.

Will Johnson

The Highlander

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av The Highlander » 21 aug 2007 04:38:15

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:35:46 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:16:24 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

Several posters in SCS are descended from the Border Reivers
(Raiders), myself included.

Your mother certainly put it about a bit. If it's not border reivers
it's Bonnie Prince whatsit or Robert the Bruce.

I think you're confusing my mother with your daughter, the wee hoor
who works the sailors down at the docks for five bucks a shot to pay
for her crack habit.

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 aug 2007 04:59:06

That's cute! : )

DSH

"Dolores C. Phifer" <doloresc.phifer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.894.1187668491.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Sorry for the duplicate. My herd dog herded (nips clothing) me to take
her out earlier and when she pulled my arm and it disappeared and so I
rewrote another one.

Dolores

Gjest

Re: Somerset land grants by William

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 aug 2007 07:38:02

On Aug 21, 7:14 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On 20 Aug., 21:05, arth...@alphalink.com.au wrote:



As for access to the original documents, have you ever tried to access
such documents in Australia?

Yes, actually; I am an Australian.

There's much more there than you give credit for!

Regards, Michael

G'day Folks,
This is not a reply specifically to Michael but to the group in
general.

All of this chit chat is all very interesting and illuminating but has
got well away from the original query.

Can anyone suggest who is the original Adam De Coveston, who is
suggested as being the person to whom William the Conqueror granted
the land at either Coveston (or Cothelston) or Stawell? This Adam was
the father of Sir Geoffrey De Coveston, grandfather of Sir Geoffrey
who paid homage to the Abbot in 1189 and still held the land in 1198,
and supposedly died after 1209. Failing identification of Adam as
coming across with William, can anyone identify the earlier Sir
Geoffrey De Coveston for me?

I will be most grateful for any assistance that anyone can render in
this matter.

Keep well and happy, as I am.
Happy Hunting ;-)
Rfer & Hue

Hovite

Re: ? king ?

Legg inn av Hovite » 21 aug 2007 07:47:03

On Aug 19, 9:08 pm, norenxaq <noren...@san.rr.com> wrote:

ASC stops at Woden. Anything before him were later additions

Where did you get that from?

Dolores C. Phifer

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder/Briard

Legg inn av Dolores C. Phifer » 21 aug 2007 08:05:32

Thanks. Ahh, it is not so cute when she who nose is at elbow level when I
am sitting at the computer and is 195lbs and hip high when standing... I'm
5'4". She's a big girl with long black silky hair. I have messed up
Windows on many ocassion when a file of two gets jerked out of where it was
only to end up only God knows where. The same for e-mails and files.
Sometimes I needed help to figure out where it went. And, somethimes... the
word doc just got pulled without a save and all was lost. My Briard is a
real nudger for sure when she want attention. I love her dearly. She want
to go out and me to get to bed. Later, Dolores


----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder
That's cute! : )
DSH

"Dolores C. Phifer" <doloresc.phifer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.894.1187668491.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Sorry for the duplicate. My herd dog herded (nips clothing) me to take
her out earlier and when she pulled my arm and it disappeared and so I
rewrote another one.

John Plant

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av John Plant » 21 aug 2007 09:49:19

John Briggs wrote:
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
Nope...

He bollixed the MATH.

His method of calculating an FPE rate for a Line Of Descent [LOD] is
fatally flawed -- both mathematically and conceptually.

An unfortunate expression in the circumstances :-)

He simply multiplied the SWAG FPE rate for ONE generation [2%] by the
postulated NUMBER of generations [25] in the LOD and got 50%.

Would your care to give your own calculation? Of the probability (expressed
as a percentage) of at least one FPE in a LOD of 25 generations, given a
frequency of 2% for an FPE per generation.

Hopefully, it is now clear to everyone that I did not "bollix the MATH"
as DSH has repeated so many times on this and the alt.history.british
newsgroups. If you go to the new thread entitled "FPE Probability" there
is some further explanation of my original "corresponds" and "around
50%" statement.

John Plant

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av John Plant » 21 aug 2007 10:28:39

John Plant wrote:
Hopefully, it is now clear to everyone that I did not "bollix the MATH"
as DSH has repeated so many times on this and the alt.history.british
newsgroups. If you go to the new thread entitled "FPE Probability" there
is some further explanation of my original "corresponds" and "around
50%" statement.


I have just checked "bollix" in the Oxford English Dictionary where it
says that it is low slang for "to bungle, make a mess of, confuse". What
I in fact did was "to make an apt approximation and possible confuse
*some* people who had not fully followed through the reasoning". Surely
that is not the same.

John

Ian Goddard

Re: Calculating The Joint Probability Of False Paternity Eve

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 21 aug 2007 12:10:23

j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk wrote:
John Plant wrote:


In Appendix D of my Nomina 30 paper, I develop this slightly to a
*possible* association with the interests of Maud Marshall leading on to
the Longspee and Warenne holdings, possibly including some sea trade
activities. I use this only, however, to illustrate that there were
adequate proximities for the possibility of some relevant cultural
interaction. This is just an aside and not the main theme of the paper.


Do you have a link for this?

Dave

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Dave » 21 aug 2007 13:39:07

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:38:15 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca>
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:35:46 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:16:24 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

Several posters in SCS are descended from the Border Reivers
(Raiders), myself included.

Your mother certainly put it about a bit. If it's not border reivers
it's Bonnie Prince whatsit or Robert the Bruce.

I think you're confusing my mother with your daughter, the wee hoor
who works the sailors down at the docks for five bucks a shot to pay
for her crack habit.


But is she related to William Wallace?

The Highlander

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av The Highlander » 21 aug 2007 15:14:21

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:39:07 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:38:15 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:35:46 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:16:24 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

Several posters in SCS are descended from the Border Reivers
(Raiders), myself included.

Your mother certainly put it about a bit. If it's not border reivers
it's Bonnie Prince whatsit or Robert the Bruce.

I think you're confusing my mother with your daughter, the wee hoor
who works the sailors down at the docks for five bucks a shot to pay
for her crack habit.


But is she related to William Wallace?

I have no idea who your daughter is related to.

Anglotrash is not my scene.

The Highlander
Tilgibh smucaid air do làmhan,
togaibh a' bhratach dhubh agus
toisichibh a' geàrradh na sgòrnanan!

Leticia Cluff

Re: Peter Stewart's Ancestry

Legg inn av Leticia Cluff » 21 aug 2007 15:38:25

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:29:31 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:xsiyi.65$Jp2.1126@eagle.america.net...
Peter Stewart, our Tasmanian Devil in SGM, obviously has not the slightest
idea of what a Top Banana is.

He needs to do some Basic Research,

Amusing...

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Hines has no idea how to compose a simple phrase in Latin. He needs to do
some Basic Learning.

"Top banana" on the other hand indicates the top-billed act in a variaty
show or the leading person in a group. Nothing smart about it, the harping
use of the phrase by Hines is a dead giveaway of his own warped and
frustrated desire to be seen as the most prominent critic of others on
Usenet. But he doesn't cut it, because we all know he is a phoney: he uses
Latin tags to show of an elite education that he demonstrably missed.

For anyone who misssed it in October 2005, when he posted his own undoing in
this aspect of his pretense, I have copied below his post asserting a quite
wrong translation of the Latin term, "non sequitur", AFTER this had been
correctly given by me. Hines is not only unable to read and understand the
simplest Latin text, but he purports to impose his ignorance on everyone
else.

Needless to say, he won't admit the error, despite this being verifiable by
any reader who checks an elementary Latin grammar.

Peter Stewart


From: "D. Spencer Hines" < poguemidden@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: _Non Sequitur_
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:42:23 -0000
References: <Yxa9d.17317$5O5.5889@news-server.bigpond.net.au
20041007125319.44745.qmail@web41724.mail.yahoo.com
cMj9d.17653$5O5.8570@news-server.bigpond.net.au
""Sequor" primarily means "to follow", and "sequitur" is the third
person indicative active, present tense, meaning "he/she/it follows"."

Peter Stewart

Actually, Peter, _SEQUITUR_ is third person, indicative, PASSIVE,
present tense -- meaning [literally, among other meanings] "he/she/it is
[is being] followed."

So, NON SEQUITUR literally means -- "it [the logic] is NOT being
followed" -- but your original, correct, "it does not follow" parses
better.

Cheers And Aloha,

Spencer


Thank you for that piece of entertainment, Peter, which deserves pride
of place alongside his "prima nocta" fantasies.

The word "deponent" is obviously not an active component of the
Commander's conceptual world.

Tish

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder/Briard

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 aug 2007 17:07:25

195 pounds!

She weighs far more than I do and I'm 6'4".

I'll bet she at least protects you from ragamuffin blaggards on the street.
: )

DSH

"Dolores C. Phifer" <doloresc.phifer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.903.1187707853.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Thanks. Ahh, it is not so cute when she who nose is at elbow level when I
am sitting at the computer and is 195lbs and hip high when standing... I'm
5'4". She's a big girl with long black silky hair. I have messed up
Windows on many ocassion when a file of two gets jerked out of where it
was only to end up only God knows where. The same for e-mails and files.
Sometimes I needed help to figure out where it went. And, somethimes...
the word doc just got pulled without a save and all was lost. My Briard is
a real nudger for sure when she want attention. I love her dearly. She
want to go out and me to get to bed. Later, Dolores


----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder
That's cute! : )
DSH

"Dolores C. Phifer" <doloresc.phifer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.894.1187668491.7287.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Sorry for the duplicate. My herd dog herded (nips clothing) me to take
her out earlier and when she pulled my arm and it disappeared and so I
rewrote another one.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder/Briard

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 21 aug 2007 18:02:11

Then he'll ruin the entire effect by picking his nose....

Just another oleaginous little Net Nanny...

With dreams of becoming a Net Gauleiter.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
---------------------------------------

"John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1187713916.941863.198120@a39g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

Dear Dolores

You are very welcome here to discuss mediaeval genealogy, but please
do the rest of us a favour and keep this kind of off-topic exchange to
private email.

Regards, Michael

Michael must be in a "taking names and kicking butts" state of mind,
as fussy little law-and-order types are known to get. Try
straightening your desk, Michael, it'll ease your mind. All the pens
on one side; all the post-its on the other. All the papers stacked
neatly, or better yet, filed. Don't miss the dust on top of the
screen.

Gjest

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder/Briard

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 aug 2007 18:18:07

On 21 Aug., 18:02, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Then he'll ruin the entire effect by picking his nose....

Just another oleaginous little Net Nanny...

With dreams of becoming a Net Gauleiter.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
---------------------------------------

"John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message


Ah, a love-fest between two trolls, how sweet.

Want to try some mediaeval genealogy now, either of you?

taf

Re: Lady Godiva

Legg inn av taf » 21 aug 2007 18:48:58

On Aug 20, 8:16 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Provided the identification of Earl Morcar can be firmly shown, onomastically it might be possible to hypothecize that he is the great-grandson of Morcar of Northumbria.

I'd like to suggest Ealdgyth, Aeldgifu and Edith are all the same name.

Then we have Eadgifu, the Queen of Edward I, who was King 901-924
And Aelfgifu (Elgiva) the Queen of Aethelred, King from 978 to 1013

And Ealdgyth (Aeglithia) the wife of Maldred and mother of Gospatric, Earl of Northumerland.

And don't forget St Aelfgifu the Queen of King Edmund, King from 941 to 946

All these women appear to be variations on the same underlying spoken form.

These names are not all the same, but unfortunately are sometimes
confused by Latin scribes.

Ead- and AElf- are distinct, and are likely to be the forms used here.
Eald-, although it appears in Ealdorman, is extremely rare in name
forms, and can be assumed to be an error for Ead-. Al- or El- were
late forms, actually derived from AEthel- but sometimes appearing for
AElf-. As to the second part, -gyth and -gifu are distinct. Edith is
thought to derive from Eadgyth.

We also have to bear in mind that the Anglo-Saxon naming patterns are
not what we are familiar with in other areas (although it has been
argued it is not what has been assumed in the other areas either). If
you look at the entire Wessex clan, there is very little duplication
of names until you get to the generation of Eadweard and AEthelred II,
named for distant predecessors (then AEthelred named children for
every one of the former kings of the family, in no particular order).
None are known to have been named for their maternal grandfather, and
rare are cases where a daughter is named for mother or grandmother. In
fact, we don't understand the patterns very well - in many cases, the
families seem to share one of the two name units with their prior
sibling (AEthel-stan, AEthel-bold, AEthel-red, then AElf-red), or with
a parent, and it seems more likely someone would generate a novel name
than use one from a kinsman. Thus stringing together pedigrees based
on the kind of patterns used to reconstruct a group of French counts
could miss the boat.

taf

Dave

Re: Culloden & The Aftermath

Legg inn av Dave » 21 aug 2007 19:03:28

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:14:21 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca>
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:39:07 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:38:15 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:35:46 GMT, Dave <dave@knowhere.com> wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:16:24 GMT, The Highlander <micheil@shaw.ca
wrote:

Several posters in SCS are descended from the Border Reivers
(Raiders), myself included.

Your mother certainly put it about a bit. If it's not border reivers
it's Bonnie Prince whatsit or Robert the Bruce.

I think you're confusing my mother with your daughter, the wee hoor
who works the sailors down at the docks for five bucks a shot to pay
for her crack habit.


But is she related to William Wallace?

I have no idea who your daughter is related to.

Anglotrash is not my scene.

Funny that since you seem to be related to every other Scottish

historical figure. But as William Wallace supposedly didn't have any
surviving children I guess you must be descended from his idiot
brother. The one they don't like to talk about.

John Brandon

Re: Best Free Genealogy Program??? /thanks/Linder/Briard

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 aug 2007 19:29:39

Want to try some mediaeval genealogy now, either of you?

See my posting on Agnes (Welch) (Humberston) Chauncy next door.

Don't you have anything further in your limited repertoire than
Huttons, Haseldens, Chicheleys, Docwras, and Turpins?

WJhonson

Re: Clues from Lists-Indexes, vol. 39 (Chancery Proc., Bridg

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 19:40:06

<<In a message dated 08/21/07 11:31:17 Pacific Standard Time, mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
footnote 2 : "Theophilus Leigh, of Adlestrop, co Gloucester, Esq, son of William Legh, Esq, by his third wife Joan, dau of Thomas Perry of the city of Gloucester, Esq. He died 10 Feb 1724/5, aged about 78. She his second wife, dau of James eighth Lord Chandos, by Elizabeth eldest dau and coheir of Sir Henry Bernard of London, Kt. She died 13 June 1703, aged about 35.

These Leighs will be very familiar to thos acquainted with Jane
Austen's genealogy. To make them on-topic, I suspect their ascent to
Edward III through the Brydges family is detailed on Leo's great site. >>

---------------------
Sure I can do that
Theophilus Leigh of Adlestrop in 12 steps
William Leigh of Adlestrop d 17 Jun 1690
William Leigh of Adlestrop m Elizabeth Whorwood
Rowland Leigh of Adlestrop m Catherine Berkeley
Richard Berkeley of Stoke Gifford d 1605 m Elizabeth Reade of Melton
Sir John Berkeley of Stoke Gifford d 1546 m Isabella Dennis
Sir William Dennis of Durham m Anne Berkeley
Sir Walter Denys of Gloucs. m Agnes Danvers
Maurice Dennis of Olveston m Katherine Stradling
Sir Edward Stradling of St Donat's Castle d 1453 m Jane Beaufort d 1479
Henry Beauford, Bishop of Winchester d 1447 m Alice de Arundel
John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster m Caterine Roet
Edward III

Theophilus second wife Mary Brydges in 14 steps
James Brydges, 8th Lord Chandos m Elizabeth Barnard
John Brydges, 2nd Bart of Wilton Castle d 1651/2 m Mary Pearle
Giles Brydges of Wilton Castle m Mary Scudamore
Sir James Scudamore d.v.p. 14 Apr 1619 m Mary Throckmorton
Sir Thomas Throckmorton d 1607 m Elizabeth Berkeley
Richard Berkeley of Stoke Giffard m Elizabeth Reade of Melton

And then as above.
So they were distant cousins.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Huttons of Dry Drayton (snippet for Hap Sutcliff)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 21 aug 2007 20:18:11

You state that Rose Hutton's husband was named Thomas St George,
Stirnet here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... eorge1.htm

states his name was Francis St George

Svar

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