Or perhaps Eadgifu was indeed Aelfgar's widow (called 'Aegifu' in AR), in
which case this may have nothing to do with Ealdgyth.
Is there any value to be found in this Domesday record?
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illnois
----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
Excuse me.
The paragraph below should read :
I'd like to suggest that this identity of Count Alan 'the Red'
establishes a reasonable case that the property owned by Eadgifu/Ealdgyth
in the time of
King Edward - which would have to be in the name of Earl Aelfgar's
[daughter] in 1066 since both the Earl (abt 1062 per DNB) and Ealdgyth's
husband were dead. They then passed to [her] son, Earl Edwin, sometime
before 1071. The Domesday property record would thus not only confirm the
name of Edwin's [grand]father - Earl Aelfgar - but confirm that the name
of his mother was Eadgifu/Ealdgyth. The Domesday record - if the
translation can be verified - would also seem to establish a prima facia
case that the names Ealdgyth and Eadigifu (perhaps 'the Fair') may be
synonymous. This in turn would lend increased support to the later
secondary sources which claim that Gruffydd ap Llywelyn's widow m. (or at
least 'had a relationship with') (2), King Harold II who d. in the Battle
of Hastings.
Terry Booth
Chicago Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "TJ Booth" <terryjbooth@sbcglobal.net
To: "GenMedieval" <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
John,
Thanks for your note - it helped steer me the right way. Here's some
further
information and thoughts.
"Florence of Worcester" notes that in 1071, Aelfgar's sons Earl Edwin
and
Earl Morcar revolted against King William, with Earl Edwin being killed
by
his own people.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gpR0iz5GjYgC&pg=177Subsequent to that event, about 1072 the King began 'dismantling' Earl
Edwin's properties - which were extensive and largely in Richmond - and
granted them to Count Alan 'the Red', who is believed to have
accompanied
William in the invasion. See a discussion of this in Paul Dalton's
'Conquest, Anarchy, and Lordship: Yorkshire, 1066-1154' at
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nog9_G ... Q#PPA67,M1.
As you note, count Alan 'the Red' was the son of Eudo, count of
Penthievre.
He apparently had a brother also named Alan ('the Black') who was
granted
some of his brother's properties. A reasonable (but not perfect)
facsimile
of Count Alan's dates and titles can be found in Doyle's "Official
Baronage
of England" at
http://books.google.com/books?id=DO8IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA105.
He
also appears in a chart in CP X, page 781, which shows him as 'Lord of
Richmond'. CP apparently states (not seen) he dsp. 4 Aug 1089, a late
enough
date for his extensive land grants from King William to be shown in the
Domesday book .
I'd like to suggest that this identity of Count Alan 'the Red'
establishes a
reasonable case that the property owned by Eadgifu/Ealdgyth in the time
of
King Edward - which would have to be in the name of Earl Aelfgar's widow
in
1066 since the Earl was by then dead (abt 1062 per DNB) - passed to
their
son, Earl Edwin, sometime before 1071. The Domesday property record
would
thus not only confirm the name of Edwin's father - Earl Aelfgar - but
confirm that the name of his mother (and Aelfgar's wife) was
Eadgifu/Ealdgyth. The Domesday record - if the translation can be
verified -
would also seem to establish a prima facia case that the names Ealdgyth
and
Eadigifu (perhaps 'the Fair') may be synonymous. This in turn would lend
increased support to the later secondary sources which claim that
Aelfgar's
wife m. (or at least 'had a relationship with') (2), King Harold II who
d.
in the Battle of Hastings.
I apologize for not having access to the primary source to confirm all
the
details and spellings in the Domesday record as provided by UK Archives.
Terry Booth
Chicago, Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
Dear Terry,
Re: the identification of Count Alan, he was one of the more
important tenants in chief of King William at the time of Domesday
Book (1086). He was a younger son of Eudo, count of Penthievre (also
designated 'count of Brittany'). He has been identified as one of the
few certain participants in the Battle of Hastings (or Senlac Hill as
your prefer). See Complete Peerage XII, Appendix L, p. 48.
Count Alan, also called 'Alan the Red', has no known
descendants. However, his younger brother and heir Stephen, lord of
the honour of Richmond (d. 21 Apr 1135) has myriad descendants,
including Ela of Salisbury (countess of Salisbury, wife of William
Longespee)), the Dukes of Brittany (from 1356 on), the Mowbray and
Howard Dukes of Norfolk, and far too many others to contemplate.
Cheers,
John
On Aug 16, 5:41 pm, "TJ Booth" <terryjbo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Will,
I purchased another Domesday record, for Cambridgeshire, hoping it
might
have more insight. The primary source summarized, per UK archives,
would
be
Great Domesday Book; Folio
194R.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... sult.asp...
The record was in pdf format which I printed but didn't save (dumb!),
so
I
will summarize and retype what seems most important. I cannot vouch
for
the
quality of the transcription or translation from Latin.
Essentially everything on the page had once been owned by Eadgifu
(name
mentioned 18 times, including once as "Eadgifu the Fair"). Some of her
ownership is noted as TRE (from Edward's time), but one suspects it
all
might have been. But at Domesday time, almost all the land was held by
"Count Alan" (noted to have 10 burgesses in Cambridgeshire). The
properties
are identified as in Linton, Little Linton, Whittlesford Hundred,
Thriplow
Hundred, Arringford Hundred and Bassingbourn. When Eadgifu owned it,
she
held it by various means including providing 8 watchmen for the
sheriff
and
5 cartage-dues. A total of 32 sokemen are listed (UK Archives defines
them
as "Freeman who nevertheless had to attend their lord's court." -
presumably
they're like sharecroppers). Some of the Sokemen were noted as
responsible
for providing the watchmen and cartage-dues.
The most interesting property is Bassingbourn where Earl Aelfgar is
named,
it also has a high property value:
"Count Alan himself holds 7 hides and 1 1/2 virgates in Bassignbourn.
There
is land for 18 ploughs. In demesne are 4 hides, and there are 5
ploughs,
and
there can be two more. There are 8 villans and 11 bordars and 10
cottars
with 11 ploughs. There are 3 slaves, and 2 mills rendering 20s, and
meadow
for 5 ploughs. In all it is worth 301; when received 261, and as much
TRE
[i.e. same value in King Edward's time]. Eadgifu held this manor, and
there
were 10 sokemen, and 8 of them, men of Eadgifu, could sell their land,
but
the soke remained with her; and the other 2, the men of Earl Aelfgar,
provided 4 watchmen for the sheriff, and they themselves could sell
their
land."
A preceding property in Arringford Hundred, is also of potential
interest
because of the names :
"In Croydon Almaer holds 2 1/2 virgates under the count. There is land
for 6
oxen, and there are 6 oxen, with 1 border and 1 cottar. It is and was
worth
10s; TRE 15s. Godgifu [this is prob not Countess Godgifu, who seems
usually
identified as such] held this land under Eadgifu, and could depart. In
the
same vill Fulchei holds 1 virgate of land from the count. It is and
was
worth 5s. Leofgifu [the nun?] held this land under Eadgifu, and could
depart."
Can anyone identify Count Alan or a possible relationship?
Terry Booth
Chicago Illinois
----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Lady Godiva
In a message dated 08/15/07 18:00:15 Pacific Standard Time,
therav3
writes:
As I recall, it has been reasonably established that Osbern
was the husband of Nest, daughter of 'Grifin' (or rather, Gruffydd
ap Llywelyn). Unless the land of Ealdgyth in Binley were taken by
the (Norman) crown after 1066 and subsequently given to Osbern
fitz Richard, it would have presumably gone to Ealdgyth's heir.
She had no known issue by Harold II: the logical inference here
would be, Nest (wife of Osbern) was the daughter of Gruffydd ap
Llywelyn, by Ealdgyth, his known wife.
----------------------------------------
Actually John I hadn't even gotten as far as that generation.
My main issues are:
1) What source tells us that Aelfgar was son of Godiva, and
2) What source tells us that Aelfgar was married at all, let alone
to a
woman named Elfgifu, and
3) What source tells us that Aelfgar had a daughter who married
Griffin.
So you see I'm a generation or two behind what you say above.
As I've detailed, so far, there *is* no primary source that says
this.
I haven't read all the sources yet, but I really thought by now I'd
find
the primary one instead of finding silence.
Will Johnson
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