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John Brandon

Re: C.P. Addition: Clue to Origin of Ralph de Monthermer, Ea

Legg inn av John Brandon » 29 mai 2007 23:15:27

Nothing so extreme - it is a common enough phrase that most people would

It seems to be a British expression. I've certainly never heard it
before.

Another of your fantasies: "little" is pure imagination, as baseless and
self-serving to a deformed ego as your other opinions.

Sort of like some of yours, eh ("troll," "nuisance," "baseless," "self-
serving," "deformed")? How many unpleasant words can you fit into a
single sentence?

Anyway, this is the last response I'll be making to you. See you,
wouldn't want to be you.

Peter Stewart

Re: C.P. Addition: Clue to Origin of Ralph de Monthermer, Ea

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 30 mai 2007 04:42:43

On May 30, 8:15 am, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Nothing so extreme - it is a common enough phrase that most people would

It seems to be a British expression. I've certainly never heard it
before.

So you thought it appropriate to invent your own definition and then
blame me for it.....

Another of your fantasies: "little" is pure imagination, as baseless and
self-serving to a deformed ego as your other opinions.

Sort of like some of yours, eh ("troll," "nuisance," "baseless," "self-
serving," "deformed")? How many unpleasant words can you fit into a
single sentence?

Mercifully nothing from you is "sort of like" anything from me. In
this case, you are spluttering nonsense - all of those words were put
into a single sentence ONLY BY YOU, not be me. If you can't refute the
terms in their proper context, mischaracterising them is a feeble
attempt at retaliation that can do you no good at all.

Anyway, this is the last response I'll be making to you. See you,
wouldn't want to be you.

We have seen before how little your resolutions to shut up can be
trusted.

Peter Stewart

Larsy

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av Larsy » 30 mai 2007 15:08:53

So there were two separate families of Browne's at Snelston?

Or should there be some kind of connection between these two, and if so what is it?


Why would there necessarily be two separate families of Browne's (sic)
at Snelston?

[I didn't make a "resolution to shut up," of course; far from it. I
merely announced my decision to cease corresponding with a certain
disagreeable old fool whose initials approximate a monthly syndrome of
bloating, irritation, and mood swings.]

Gjest

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av Gjest » 30 mai 2007 18:19:02

To answer your question with a question,

What evidence is there that William Browne, lord mayor of London in 1513 or
his son John Browne, master of the mint were ever of Snelston?

Adrian

In a message dated 30/05/2007 15:10:48 GMT Standard Time,
ravinmaven2001@yahoo.com writes:

So there were two separate families of Browne's at Snelston?

Or should there be some kind of connection between these two, and if so
what is it?



Why would there necessarily be two separate families of Browne's (sic)
at Snelston?

[I didn't make a "resolution to shut up," of course; far from it. I
merely announced my decision to cease corresponding with a certain
disagreeable old fool whose initials approximate a monthly syndrome of
bloating, irritation, and mood swings.]


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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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Larsy

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av Larsy » 30 mai 2007 18:45:01

To answer your question with a question,

What evidence is there that William Browne, lord mayor of London in 1513 or
his son John Browne, master of the mint were ever of Snelston?

Dunno about that. Hasn't Todd F. done some work on the London mayoral
Brownes? He might have some ideas.

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av WJhonson » 30 mai 2007 18:59:38

On the existence of a "John Browne OF SNELSTON" [emphasis mine]
see
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.gene ... 3ab8086de2

citing "Derbyshire Gentry..." which itself cites PRO C 142/33/63
this thread calls him "John Browne of Snelston" exactly as stated

Adrian Channing then replies that this John Browne was "... a son of William Browne (1467-1514), mayor of London in 1513, by his second wife Alice Kebyll".

Will Johnson


John Brandon

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av John Brandon » 30 mai 2007 19:27:01


Maybe the sister "Gerturde" of Sir William in the NEHGR pedigree was
really a brother "George" ...??

Larsy

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av Larsy » 30 mai 2007 20:15:31

Maybe the sister "Gerturde" of Sir William in the NEHGR pedigree was
really a brother "George" ...??

"Gerturde Browne," what a name. 'Course I meant Gertrude.

WJhonson

Re: de Windsor, de Fresney and Wix priory: a conjecture

Legg inn av WJhonson » 30 mai 2007 21:43:16

<<In a message dated 05/30/07 13:11:16 Pacific Standard Time, mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
Walter II - Walter
(II)susequently became heir to half the barony of Windsor, with his
cousin William III, by a settlement reached in 1198 (and) died in 1203
leaving as heirs his two sisters, Christiana (d before Michaelmas
1206), wife of Durand (sic) de Lacelles, and Gunnor (d c 1205/6) wife
of Hugh de Hosdeng. >>


The resolution will probably be to find what DD is citing for the above and quote it exactly. Questions being:
1) does it state "sisters" or simply "heirs"
2) does it state exactly how Walter became heir to half the barony of Windsor or is this an assumption
3) if 1) then does it actually state who the parents of the siblings were?

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: de Windsor, de Fresney and Wix priory: a conjecture

Legg inn av WJhonson » 30 mai 2007 21:46:00

<<In a message dated 05/29/07 20:48:48 Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:
We have a good fix on dates for Duncan de Lascelles and his wife Christiana>>


I missed the part where we have a good fix on dates for either of the above.
Where can I find this documentation?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Ian Goddard

Re: C.P. Addition: Clue to Origin of Ralph de Monthermer, Ea

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 31 mai 2007 00:24:14

John Brandon wrote:


I had never heard this expression--"on a hiding to nothing"--but it

Common expression in N Ireland & maybe elsewhere.

Etymology: uncertain.

Meaning: "expending a great deal of effort with no prospect of achieving
anything".

--
Ian Goddard

Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk

Matthew Connolly

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av Matthew Connolly » 31 mai 2007 13:20:04

Adrian Channing wrote:
(B) Nicholas Browne (-bur 18 Jan 1587) of Snelston m Ellanor (-28 Apr 1595)
d&h of Ralph Shirley of Shirley, Derbs and wdw (m 1545) of Thomas Vernon of
Clifton & Harleston, Derbs and left


A bit more on these people: Thomas Vernon (d.17 Jan 1556/7) was of
Houndhill (aka Houndshill) in Marchington, Staffs, which had been
purchased by his father Humphrey.

Harlaston, Staffs was held for life by Thomas's uncle Sir John Vernon
(d.9 Feb 1545/6, MI Clifton Campville). Sir John's wife was Ellen
Montgomery (sister of the Anne who maried John Browne), heiress of
Sudbury, Derbs, which is just across the river Dove -the county
border- from Marchington; these two Vernon branches were later
reunited in marriage.

Thomas and Eleanor Vernon had one son, Walter (male line ancestor of
the lords Vernon), who is mentioned in the will of his stepfather
Nicholas Browne; Walter had a sister Barbara Vernon, who appears in a
deed quoted by Pym Yeatman as contracted to marry George Allen of
Stanton. Probably another sister was Dorothy, daughter of Thomas
Vernon of "Howell", Staffs, wife of Job Throckmorton of Haseley, Warks
(1545-1601) who was implicated in the production of the 'Martin
Marprelate' puritan tracts.

Eleanor Shirley's father, Ralph Shirley, died 15 Jan 1535/6; his widow
Amy Lolle remarried to Ralph Sacheverell, as appears from this PRO
reference:

C1/1165/46: 1544 April 22 - 1547 Feb 15

Thomas VERNON of Houndhill, esquire, v. Amice, late the wife of Ralph
SECHEVERELL.: Money promised to complainant on his marriage with
Eleanor Schurley, daughter of defendant.: STAFFORD.

-Matthew

Ian Goddard

Etymology

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 31 mai 2007 14:07:08

Ian Goddard wrote:

John Brandon wrote:


I had never heard this expression--"on a hiding to nothing"--but it

Common expression in N Ireland & maybe elsewhere.

Etymology: uncertain.

Meaning: "expending a great deal of effort with no prospect of achieving
anything".


Chambers dictionary gives "hide" as a form of past tense of the verb "hie",
to hasten, so the meaning of "on a hiding" is "in a hurry".

Pedants'r'Us

--
Ian Goddard

Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk

Larsy

Re: Etymology

Legg inn av Larsy » 31 mai 2007 15:32:25

Chambers dictionary gives "hide" as a form of past tense of the verb "hie",
to hasten, so the meaning of "on a hiding" is "in a hurry".

'Hiding,' in this expression, is synonymous with 'thrashing,' and a
'hiding to nothing' means 'a thrashing to bits.'"

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_boar ... es/50.html

Gjest

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av Gjest » 31 mai 2007 18:54:02

Mathew,

Thanks for the Vernon family details. By the way Burke's has Walter (son of
Thomas and Eleanor Vernon) b 1552; m as her 1st husband Mary Littleton and d
1592, leaving an only surv s:

Edward (Sir); b 1584; m 1613 his cousin Margaret Vernon and d 1657, leaving,
with seven daus, ...

One of these daughters was Dorothy Vernon who married Edmund Browne of
Hungary Bentley [per Pym Yeatman and also MI as given in John Edwin Cussans
History of Hertfordshire]

Edmund Browne was the son of Thomas Browne (-Will 1631 pr 1633) of
Shredicote, Staffs by Apolyne d of George Southwarke (widow of William Fairfax)

Thomas Browne was son of William Browne (-Will 1602 pr 1602) of Cookshill.
This William was probably the son of Ralf Browne of Yevely (possibly by Mary
d of William Whitehall of Bloxwith) and he is probably son of John Browne
(-1569) master of the mint by his m3 to Christian d of William Carleol or
Crokell of London.

So there is a connection between the Brownes of Snelston and the Lord mayor
Browne, but I fear not as close as that sought earlier in this thread.

Adrian



In a message dated 31/05/2007 13:20:47 GMT Standard Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

A bit more on these people: Thomas Vernon (d.17 Jan 1556/7) was of
Houndhill (aka Houndshill) in Marchington, Staffs, which had been
purchased by his father Humphrey.

Harlaston, Staffs was held for life by Thomas's uncle Sir John Vernon
(d.9 Feb 1545/6, MI Clifton Campville). Sir John's wife was Ellen
Montgomery (sister of the Anne who maried John Browne), heiress of
Sudbury, Derbs, which is just across the river Dove -the county
border- from Marchington; these two Vernon branches were later
reunited in marriage.

Thomas and Eleanor Vernon had one son, Walter (male line ancestor of
the lords Vernon), who is mentioned in the will of his stepfather
Nicholas Browne; Walter had a sister Barbara Vernon, who appears in a
deed quoted by Pym Yeatman as contracted to marry George Allen of
Stanton. Probably another sister was Dorothy, daughter of Thomas
Vernon of "Howell", Staffs, wife of Job Throckmorton of Haseley, Warks
(1545-1601) who was implicated in the production of the 'Martin
Marprelate' puritan tracts.

Eleanor Shirley's father, Ralph Shirley, died 15 Jan 1535/6; his widow
Amy Lolle remarried to Ralph Sacheverell, as appears from this PRO
reference:

C1/1165/46: 1544 April 22 - 1547 Feb 15

Thomas VERNON of Houndhill, esquire, v. Amice, late the wife of Ralph
SECHEVERELL.: Money promised to complainant on his marriage with
Eleanor Schurley, daughter of defendant.: STAFFORD.

-Matthew

Larsy

Re: Maverick lawsuit

Legg inn av Larsy » 31 mai 2007 19:40:44

"[?John] Maverick and he [Granowe] having married two sisters."

Has this fact been known?

Matthew Connolly

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av Matthew Connolly » 31 mai 2007 21:14:45

On May 31, 6:52 pm, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:
Mathew,

Thanks for the Vernon family details. By the way Burke's has Walter (son of
Thomas and Eleanor Vernon) b 1552; m as her 1st husband Mary Littleton and d
1592, leaving an only surv s:

Edward (Sir); b 1584; m 1613 his cousin Margaret Vernon and d 1657, leaving,
with seven daus, ...

One of these daughters was Dorothy Vernon who married Edmund Browne of
Hungary Bentley [per Pym Yeatman and also MI as given in John Edwin Cussans
History of Hertfordshire]

Edmund Browne was the son of Thomas Browne (-Will 1631 pr 1633) of
Shredicote, Staffs by Apolyne d of George Southwarke (widow of William Fairfax)

Thomas Browne was son of William Browne (-Will 1602 pr 1602) of Cookshill.
This William was probably the son of Ralf Browne of Yevely (possibly by Mary
d of William Whitehall of Bloxwith) and he is probably son of John Browne
(-1569) master of the mint by his m3 to Christian d of William Carleol or
Crokell of London.

So there is a connection between the Brownes of Snelston and the Lord mayor
Browne, but I fear not as close as that sought earlier in this thread.

Adrian


Thanks Adrian, I didn't know anything of Edmund Browne's ancestry; in
case it's of interest, the will of Col. Edward Vernon- one of Dorothy
Browne's brothers- contains several references to his nephew Rupert
Browne, including: "I give and devise unto my Nephew Rupert Browne the
sume of five shillings onely he haveing much disoblieged and dealt ill
with me"!

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av WJhonson » 01 jun 2007 01:01:06

<<In a message dated 05/31/07 05:21:23 Pacific Standard Time, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:
C1/1165/46: 1544 April 22 - 1547 Feb 15

Thomas VERNON of Houndhill, esquire, v. Amice, late the wife of Ralph
SECHEVERELL.: Money promised to complainant on his marriage with
Eleanor Schurley, daughter of defendant.: STAFFORD. >>


Query: That this Ralph Sacheverell who we can see must have died from this, sometime between 1536 and 1547 be identical to *that* Ralph Sacheverell who died 14 Aug 1539, son of Dominic Sacheverell, and also father of that Henry Sacheverell d 1558 who married Lucia Pole

And are thus ancestral to Thomas Hazard the Rhode Island immigrant?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Etymology

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 01 jun 2007 01:57:50

On Jun 1, 12:32 am, Larsy <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chambers dictionary gives "hide" as a form of past tense of the verb "hie",
to hasten, so the meaning of "on a hiding" is "in a hurry".

'Hiding,' in this expression, is synonymous with 'thrashing,' and a
'hiding to nothing' means 'a thrashing to bits.'"

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_boar ... es/50.html

Half right: "hiding" does literally mean "thrashing" in the expression
"hiding to nothing", but not by any means a "thrashing to bits" and
not from the victim's standpoint in the first place.

A report, by someone identified only as "ESC", of Norman Schur's
definition published in New York is an odd sort of authority to take
from one internet discussion forum and then assert as fact on another
about a British colloquialism.

The expressioni is traced by the OED only back as far as 1905, so it
is most unlikely that "hiding" comes from the verb "to hie" (hasten)
rather than from the sporting term common from the late 19th century,
for a whipping. The meaning is "faced with a situation in which any
outcome would be unfavourable or in which success is impossible",
apparently from horseracing wher a favourite is expected to win easily
"so that one gains no credit from victory, and is disgraced by
defeat".

However, Brandon's initial mistake was to ignore the preposition. "On
a hiding" in this case means "[engaged] on a hiding", i.e. the jockey,
rather than "on [the receiving end of] a hiding", i.e the horse. The
animal is "under" the whip, not "on" it. British sporting metaphors
are usually from the human point of view, not literally from the
horse's mouth. And of course racehorses are not "thrashed to bits", at
least in public, anyway.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jun 2007 16:16:03

Matthew,

Yes, Pym Yeatman mentions Rupert

"He [Edmund Browne and Dorothy Vernon] had twelve other sons [besides Thomas
of Bentley] and four daughters, of the fate of whom little is known.
Rupert, the 4th son, was of the prerogative office of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
He had five sons."
(p 81 of Brownes of Betchworth)

I wonder what Rupert did to upset Col Edward Vernon?

I must correct something I said before:

"William Browne (Snelston 1558-1610 Low Countries) Lt gen of Flushing, Low
Countries and of Atherington, Sussex; knt (1603/4)"

I'm now not so sure that William was also of Atherington, Sussex. I assumed
this parley from Shaw's Knights of England:

Knights Bachelors
1603-4, Mar. 14. William Brown, of Sussex, lieut, gov. of Flushing
(knighted at the Tower, by the King)

but I see that the details of Sir William Browne of Atherington, Chichester
etc does not agree with William Browne of Flushing. [It may be of
significance that on the same day, of the 50 or so knights created was Anthony Brown of
Essex [of Mersk manor] and a Nicholas Brown]

Regards,
Adrian


In a message dated 31/05/2007 21:15:51 GMT Standard Time,

mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:
Thanks Adrian,
I didn't know anything of Edmund Browne's ancestry; in
case it's of interest, the will of Col. Edward Vernon- one of Dorothy
Browne's brothers- contains several references to his nephew Rupert
Browne, including: "I give and devise unto my Nephew Rupert Browne the
sume of five shillings onely he haveing much disoblieged and dealt ill
with me"!
<<<<

Gjest

Re: William Bowes and Maud Fitzhugh

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 jun 2007 19:09:02

In a message dated 6/1/2007 7:50:37 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lock.jackie@gmail.com writes:

William Bowes B abt 1415 m Maud Fitzhugh B1428:
I have a date of death for William as 1466, yet his children, Anne,
Margery and Ralph are all born after his death date. Anyone have
another death date for William?
Sir Robert Bowes B1310 m Elizabeth Lilburne B1305
I have that Robert's two sons, William and Robert are both born in
1330, yet they are supposedly half brothers.
Any dates available? or explanations?


Jackie the problem with the above is the lack of source. If you tell us
that you picked up these dates from OneWorldTree for example, that tells us
something. If you got them from Burke's LG that tells us something else. And if
you say you got them from published IPM's that tells us something as well.

If you have no sources, the best thing to do is to erase the dates
completely, and start the search for a year over again.

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av WJhonson » 01 jun 2007 20:52:27

The children of Edmund Brown of Hungary Bentley, would they have been baptised at Longford ?

If so Rupert was baptised on 16 Jul 1644 (For baptism see http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch J055493)

Did Thomas Browne marry a woman named Grace ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Matthew Connolly

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av Matthew Connolly » 01 jun 2007 21:21:00

On Jun 1, 9:52 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
The children of Edmund Brown of Hungary Bentley, would they have been baptised at Longford ?

If so Rupert was baptised on 16 Jul 1644 (For baptism seewww.familysearch.org- IGI - British Isles - Batch J055493)

Did Thomas Browne marry a woman named Grace ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Adrian will know a lot more than I do, but I can at least confirm that
Longford was their church. And yes, Thomas Browne married Grace
Crofts- there's a sketched descent here (visible via proxy server):

http://books.google.com/books?id=eIsuAA ... ley&pgis=1

Don't know any more about your Sacheverell query I'm afraid.

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av WJhonson » 01 jun 2007 21:57:43

Thanks Matthew that helps.
I'll check the baptisms posted for Thomas and Grace to see if I can figure a birth range for Thomas. He does not appear in the extracted baptisms at Longford as far as I can see.

The ones who do, and have father Edward (mother never named) are
Edmund 14 Jun 1638
William 24 Oct 1639
Rupert 16 Jul 1644
George 2 Oct 1645
Phillip 27 May 1652
Richard 12 May 1656

So I've tenatively assigned a birthrange for Dorothy Vernon of 1608/24
and her husband Edmund Browne of Hungary Bentley of 1595/1620
based solely on the above baptisms.

Since Rupert lived to adulthood, and is called "fourth son" I'm assuming Thomas was probably third and the family was elsewhere in the time period 1640/3.

Will Johnson

Ian Goddard

Re: Etymology

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 01 jun 2007 23:21:20

Peter Stewart wrote:

On Jun 1, 12:32 am, Larsy <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chambers dictionary gives "hide" as a form of past tense of the verb
"hie", to hasten, so the meaning of "on a hiding" is "in a hurry".

'Hiding,' in this expression, is synonymous with 'thrashing,' and a
'hiding to nothing' means 'a thrashing to bits.'"

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_boar ... es/50.html

Half right: "hiding" does literally mean "thrashing" in the expression
"hiding to nothing", but not by any means a "thrashing to bits" and
not from the victim's standpoint in the first place.

A report, by someone identified only as "ESC", of Norman Schur's
definition published in New York is an odd sort of authority to take
from one internet discussion forum and then assert as fact on another
about a British colloquialism.

The expressioni is traced by the OED only back as far as 1905, so it
is most unlikely that "hiding" comes from the verb "to hie" (hasten)
rather than from the sporting term common from the late 19th century,
for a whipping. The meaning is "faced with a situation in which any
outcome would be unfavourable or in which success is impossible",
apparently from horseracing wher a favourite is expected to win easily
"so that one gains no credit from victory, and is disgraced by
defeat".

However, Brandon's initial mistake was to ignore the preposition. "On
a hiding" in this case means "[engaged] on a hiding", i.e. the jockey,
rather than "on [the receiving end of] a hiding", i.e the horse. The
animal is "under" the whip, not "on" it. British sporting metaphors
are usually from the human point of view, not literally from the
horse's mouth. And of course racehorses are not "thrashed to bits", at
least in public, anyway.

Peter Stewart

The 1905 reference is to
http://www.amazon.com/Mop-Fair-M-Binste ... 808&sr=1-2
--
Ian Goddard

Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk

wjhonson

Re: Sir William Browne of Flushing marries a Huguenot

Legg inn av wjhonson » 02 jun 2007 00:20:12

Well well here's something nice and scandalous.

Rupert Jr, married the daughter of Rupert Sr, his uncle.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RZ8cxS ... TNuTmS2rlU

jackie

Re: William Bowes and Maud Fitzhugh

Legg inn av jackie » 02 jun 2007 10:23:22

On Jun 1, 7:02 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 6/1/2007 7:50:37 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

lock.jac...@gmail.com writes:

William Bowes B abt 1415 m Maud Fitzhugh B1428:
I have a date of death for William as 1466, yet his children, Anne,
Margery and Ralph are all born after his death date. Anyone have
another death date for William?
Sir Robert Bowes B1310 m Elizabeth Lilburne B1305
I have that Robert's two sons, William and Robert are both born in
1330, yet they are supposedly half brothers.
Any dates available? or explanations?

Jackie the problem with the above is the lack of source. If you tell us
that you picked up these dates from OneWorldTree for example, that tells us
something. If you got them from Burke's LG that tells us something else. And if
you say you got them from published IPM's that tells us something as well.

If you have no sources, the best thing to do is to erase the dates
completely, and start the search for a year over again.

Will Johnson

************************************** See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.

Sorry Will,
I got some of my sources from the website Hissem Bowes and also from a
handwritten family tree in our family's possession. Also whenever i
search family tree's on the internet, the majority (i'd say 90%) of
the information I read, is the same as I have.
Does this help?

Regards
Jackie

Gjest

Re: William Bowes and Maud Fitzhugh

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jun 2007 20:24:02

In a message dated 6/2/2007 2:25:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lock.jackie@gmail.com writes:

I got some of my sources from the website Hissem Bowes and also from a
handwritten family tree in our family's possession. Also whenever i
search family tree's on the internet, the majority (i'd say 90%) of
the information I read, is the same as I have.
Does this help?


If you could be specific about exactly what your source is that would help.
You citing the exact URL of the website.
"Searching family tree on the internet" isn't a source. The vast majority
simply copy older work without citation, so they are completely useless.

For this sort of "guideline" the best guideline, would be the Ancestral
File. They used human intelligence to put the families together (which is more
than can be said for OneWorldTree), so at least they didn't make boffo errors
like linking an 1854 father to a 1621 child.

At any rate, when you cite the Ancestral File, you MUST cite the specific
Ancestral File *number*.

Like I said, take the dates you have, toss them out the window. Replace
them with year-ranges such as "born between 1320 and 1350" based on primary or
good, secondary sources.

Online family trees are 99.9% useless as good, secondary sources. Those
which cite their own sources in a obscure manner like "GEDCOM of John Brown
imported 9-22-02" are useless are a source of this sort is unverifiable (i.e. you
can't confirm the source data yourself). Equally useless are trees (used as
sources) which cite their own sources as "WorldConnect", "CD12 from
somesite.com", and so on. A good citation is one which you can look-up and view the
underlying statements yourself. These citations are so vague, you can't tell
what they are.

William Bowes and Maud FitzHugh are ancestral to tons of people, I'm sure
someone has a reasonably good source for their lives.

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: William Bowes and Maud Fitzhugh

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 jun 2007 20:29:02

<<<In a message dated 6/2/2007 11:22:10 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

William Bowes and Maud FitzHugh are ancestral to tons of people, I'm sure
someone has a reasonably good source for their lives.>>>
-------------------
I should clarify the above. When I say "I'm sure someone has a reasonably
good source" what I'm proposing is that *you* check those sources you're using
and see if any of them cite their underlying source. If you find any "good"
underlying source citation, then that will tell you you're on the right
track.

You should never rely on unsourced online trees for dates, never, ever ever
ever :)

Will



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

WJhonson

Re: Agnes Beaumont

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 jun 2007 04:14:57

<<In a message dated 06/02/07 18:30:41 Pacific Standard Time, p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
What source have you found for Margaret's birthplace? >>


What sort of documents are there for Margaret's life? Other than her son being born abt 1102 are there any other things that allow us to pin her own birthrange down ?

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Agnes Beaumont

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 jun 2007 04:31:33

I think the main issue over Agnes de Newburgh is that she was married or at least contracted to marry at such a young age, at the latest by the end of 1138.

And yet she couldn't have been born earlier than the end of 1133.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Agnes Beaumont

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 03 jun 2007 04:50:18

"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2858.1180841581.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I think the main issue over Agnes de Newburgh is that she was married
or at least contracted to marry at such a young age, at the latest by the
end of 1138.

And yet she couldn't have been born earlier than the end of 1133.

She was betrothed in childhood as part of a peace settlement between Earl
Roger, her father, and the Clintons. This is not at issue, it is a matter of
record.

Peter Stewart

jackie

Re: William Bowes and Maud Fitzhugh

Legg inn av jackie » 03 jun 2007 10:51:02

On Jun 2, 8:26 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 6/2/2007 11:22:10 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

WJhon...@aol.com writes:

William Bowes and Maud FitzHugh are ancestral to tons of people, I'm sure
someone has a reasonably good source for their lives.
-------------------
I should clarify the above. When I say "I'm sure someone has a reasonably
good source" what I'm proposing is that *you* check those sources you're using
and see if any of them cite their underlying source. If you find any "good"
underlying source citation, then that will tell you you're on the right
track.

You should never rely on unsourced online trees for dates, never, ever ever
ever :)

Will

************************************** See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.

Thanks so very much Will. You have been very helpful, although it is
a daunting project to chuck out these dates and start all over
again.
Regards
Jackie

Leo van de Pas

Re: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 04 jun 2007 01:48:02

Apologies for giving a negative response, but at least these are two sources
you can overlook.

Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fuerstliche Haeuser 1961 page 513 simply
says he had a son born out of a marriage, but nothing about the wife.
The Sardimpex website I checked and there was also no wife.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "MN" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 10:05 AM
Subject: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife


Dear Listeners,
did someone got any idea and/or conjecture about the name (and family)
of the wife of:


* Ruggero SANSEVERINO, 2nd Count of Chiaramonte and Tricarico,
+1359/62 , son of
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/sanseverino1.html#GT> Giacomo
Sanseverino, (1st Count of Tricarico and Chiaramonte, Lord of
Castronovo, Noja, Torremare and Sevisio 1319, +1348 and of Margherita di
Chiaramonte (sister and heiress of Ugone Count of Chiaramonte, Lord
Castronovo, Noja, Torremare and Sevisio)

Hi was the father of Venceslao, 3rd Count of Tricarico and Chiaramonte,
1st Duke of Venosa (1380-87), 1st Duke of Amalfi (1394-99).


Some genealogists wrote that the wife of Ruggero should be a "generic"
"Hungarian lady". (?)
Any Idea about this mysterious lady coming fro Hungary?

Thanks in advance for any help
mailto:gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av WJhonson » 04 jun 2007 02:38:14

<<In a message dated 06/03/07 18:24:34 Pacific Standard Time, jimpup writes:
The Clinton Family website show this marriage but shows no sources.
http://www.tudorplace,com.ar/CLINTON.htm >>


Jim the above link is not the "Clinton Family website", but rather it's a compilation website which I call "Tudor Place". The author appears to have tried to plot out every family who had influential people living in *Tudor* times.

The site is useful solely as a loose guideline, it contains many errors, some glaring. The worst part, imho, is that the site virtually never states it's sources. Much better sites are http://www.stirnet.com which states it's sources in a lump at the end of each surname-article, and http://www.thepeerage.com which states its sources for each family group (parents and children).

Will Johnson

MN

RE: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife

Legg inn av MN » 04 jun 2007 12:23:23

Thank you very much for your reply, dear Leo,
But, concerning the genealogy in the "Genealogie della Famiglie Nobili
Italiane" website, in my knowledge they wrote that Ruggero married
"probabilmente una ungherese". That's why I'm searching her possibly
identity. I hoped that some scholars could elaborate some conjecture or
Hypothesis about her name. Thanks in advance for any further help. M

-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 2:48 AM
To: mlupis@genmarenostrum.com; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife


Apologies for giving a negative response, but at least these are two
sources
you can overlook.

Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fuerstliche Haeuser 1961 page 513
simply
says he had a son born out of a marriage, but nothing about the wife.
The Sardimpex website I checked and there was also no wife.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "MN" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 10:05 AM
Subject: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife


Dear Listeners,
did someone got any idea and/or conjecture about the name (and family)

of the wife of:


* Ruggero SANSEVERINO, 2nd Count of Chiaramonte and Tricarico,
+1359/62 , son of
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/sanseverino1.html#GT> Giacomo
Sanseverino, (1st Count of Tricarico and Chiaramonte, Lord of
Castronovo, Noja, Torremare and Sevisio 1319, +1348 and of Margherita
di Chiaramonte (sister and heiress of Ugone Count of Chiaramonte, Lord

Castronovo, Noja, Torremare and Sevisio)

Hi was the father of Venceslao, 3rd Count of Tricarico and
Chiaramonte, 1st Duke of Venosa (1380-87), 1st Duke of Amalfi
(1394-99).


Some genealogists wrote that the wife of Ruggero should be a "generic"

"Hungarian lady". (?) Any Idea about this mysterious lady coming fro
Hungary?

Thanks in advance for any help <mailto:gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ginny Wagner

Re: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife

Legg inn av Ginny Wagner » 04 jun 2007 16:42:23

Ruggiero, son of Giacomo, shows "sp. Govanna d'Aquino capostipite dei Sans
di
Mileto" with a footnote: "Cfr. p. 135 in nota; M. CAMERA, op. cit., p. 272,
383, 384; Archivio storico per la prov. napol. 1896, p. 384; AMMIRATO,
famiglie nobili napol. Firenze, 1580, p. 9."

This information comes from a genealogical table in either La principaut?e
lombarde de Salerne (IXe-XIe
si?ecle) : pouvoir et soci?et?e en Italie lombarde m?eridionale / Loan
Author: Taviani-Carozzi, Huguette.
TN: 364142

or Les Abruzzes m?edi?evales : territoire, ?economie et soci?et?e
en Italie centrale du IXe au XIIe si?ecle / Loan Author: Feller, Laurent.
TN: 364198.


I didn't keep a copy of the title page with the three images I scanned to my
hard disk as I usually do when I copied books from ILL to my computer but
these are the two Italian books I had checked out around that time period so
the tree must have come from one of them.

If anyone would like for me to send a copy of the jpgs with the tree and its
footnotes offlist, I'd be happy to. The other jpg I scanned has a picture of
an arm and fist that is quite interesting.

Ginny Wagner




----- Original Message -----
From: "MN" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 7:05 PM
Subject: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife


Dear Listeners,
did someone got any idea and/or conjecture about the name (and family)
of the wife of:


* Ruggero SANSEVERINO, 2nd Count of Chiaramonte and Tricarico,
+1359/62 , son of
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/sanseverino1.html#GT> Giacomo
Sanseverino, (1st Count of Tricarico and Chiaramonte, Lord of
Castronovo, Noja, Torremare and Sevisio 1319, +1348 and of Margherita di
Chiaramonte (sister and heiress of Ugone Count of Chiaramonte, Lord
Castronovo, Noja, Torremare and Sevisio)

Hi was the father of Venceslao, 3rd Count of Tricarico and Chiaramonte,
1st Duke of Venosa (1380-87), 1st Duke of Amalfi (1394-99).


Some genealogists wrote that the wife of Ruggero should be a "generic"
"Hungarian lady". (?)
Any Idea about this mysterious lady coming fro Hungary?

Thanks in advance for any help
mailto:gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

MN

RE: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife

Legg inn av MN » 04 jun 2007 17:21:04

Dear Ginny,
I'm sorry but I'm afraid you made a mistake, equivocating the Ruggero
Sanseverino (+1359/62) son of Giacomo) whit the other Ruggero
Sanseverino (* 1311/1312 + 1376) son of ENRICO (+ 1314), 4° Conte di
Marsico, and Ilaria de Lloria Baronessa di Lauria, that married 1)
Giovanna d'Aquino and 2) Marquise del Balzo.

I'm searching the wife's name of the Ruggero Sanseverino son of Giacomo
and Margherita di Chiaromonte (here the genealogy:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-le ... INO/SANSEV
ERINO2.htm)

Thanks

M


-----Original Message-----
From: Ginny Wagner [mailto:ginnywagner@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 5:42 PM
To: mlupis@genmarenostrum.com; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife


Ruggiero, son of Giacomo, shows "sp. Govanna d'Aquino capostipite dei
Sans
di
Mileto" with a footnote: "Cfr. p. 135 in nota; M. CAMERA, op. cit., p.
272, 383, 384; Archivio storico per la prov. napol. 1896, p. 384;
AMMIRATO, famiglie nobili napol. Firenze, 1580, p. 9."

This information comes from a genealogical table in either La
principaut?e lombarde de Salerne (IXe-XIe
si?ecle) : pouvoir et soci?et?e en Italie lombarde m?eridionale / Loan
Author: Taviani-Carozzi, Huguette.
TN: 364142

or Les Abruzzes m?edi?evales : territoire, ?economie et soci?et?e en
Italie centrale du IXe au XIIe si?ecle / Loan Author: Feller, Laurent.
TN: 364198.


I didn't keep a copy of the title page with the three images I scanned
to my
hard disk as I usually do when I copied books from ILL to my computer
but
these are the two Italian books I had checked out around that time
period so
the tree must have come from one of them.

If anyone would like for me to send a copy of the jpgs with the tree and
its
footnotes offlist, I'd be happy to. The other jpg I scanned has a
picture of
an arm and fist that is quite interesting.

Ginny Wagner




----- Original Message -----
From: "MN" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 7:05 PM
Subject: Ruggero Sanseverino's wife


Dear Listeners,
did someone got any idea and/or conjecture about the name (and family)

of the wife of:


* Ruggero SANSEVERINO, 2nd Count of Chiaramonte and Tricarico,
+1359/62 , son of
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/sanseverino1.html#GT> Giacomo
Sanseverino, (1st Count of Tricarico and Chiaramonte, Lord of
Castronovo, Noja, Torremare and Sevisio 1319, +1348 and of Margherita
di Chiaramonte (sister and heiress of Ugone Count of Chiaramonte, Lord

Castronovo, Noja, Torremare and Sevisio)

Hi was the father of Venceslao, 3rd Count of Tricarico and
Chiaramonte, 1st Duke of Venosa (1380-87), 1st Duke of Amalfi
(1394-99).


Some genealogists wrote that the wife of Ruggero should be a "generic"

"Hungarian lady". (?) Any Idea about this mysterious lady coming fro
Hungary?

Thanks in advance for any help <mailto:gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Agnes de Beaumont Pt II

Legg inn av WJhonson » 04 jun 2007 21:06:57

Here is a direct link to the "Carta Fundationis" (Foundation Charters), in Latin by which Geoffrey "camerarius de Clintona" gave land to found Bretford. It's a tiny PDF of 2 pages

http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/MatrixBoo ... 20Bretford).pdf

If the list of witnesses can be identified, then the charter could be dated.
"Agnete uxore mea, cum filio mea Henrico concedente et testante. Testes Osbertus de Clintona, Thomas monachus, Stephanos canonicus, Moysen decanus, Willielmus capellanus, Heraldus presbyter, Rogerus Primant, Rob. de Curli, Giffardus de Lucerna, Ric. Wallensis, Tho. filius Armifr. Herebertus de Lucerna, Will. filius Odonis, et Arnaldus frater ejus, Rogerus filius Willielmi, Gaufridus Dela Hai, Fulbertus Sagittarius, Willielmus Armifr. el. Paganus, et. Reginaldus des Mores, Rogerus Pikenot.

Will Johnson

James Hogg

Re: Why Armstrongs have gun rights that Brits don't

Legg inn av James Hogg » 04 jun 2007 22:11:13

On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:08:20 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
<panther@excelsior.com> wrote:


My Armstrongs, previously Border Reivers, et alii, in the Old Country, moved
from Tennessee to Texas soon after the WBTS.


One of the Armstrongs is the subject of a famous border ballad:


Johnie Armstrong

Sum speiks of lords, sum speiks of lairds,
Ach, let them speik and speik awa;
Of a navie man I sing a sang,
Sumtyme calld Laird of Kailua.

The king he wrytes a fleeching letter,
Wi' his ain hand in mockrife glee:
And he hath sent it to Johnie Armstrang,
To cum and speik with him speidily.

The reivin Armstrangs did convene,
They were a laithsome company:
"We’ll ryde and meit our lawful king,
And slaik his arse at Gilnockie."

They ran their mules on the Langum howm,
And brake their speirs, them fouterin men;
The ladys lukit frae their loft-windows,
"Wi’ luck they’ll nae come back again!"

When Johnie came before the king,
With a’ his men sae daft to see,
The king he pisht his breeks at aince,
He fillt the jing-bang can-o-pee.

"May I find grace, my sovereign liege,
Grace for my loyal men and me?
For my name it is Johnie Armstrang,
And subject of yours, my liege," said he.

"Away, away, thou traytor strang!
Out o’ my sicht thou mayst sune be!
I grantit never a traytor’s lyfe,
And nou I’ll not begin wi’ thee."

"Grant me my lyfe, my liege, my king,
And a bonny gift I will give to thee;
Full four-and-twenty fluid drams,
O’ Lagavulin, duty-free."

"Away, away, thou traytor strang!
Out o’ my sicht thou mayst sune be!
I grantit never a traytor’s lyfe,
And nou I’ll not begin wi’ thee."

John murdred was at Carlinrigg,
And a’ his thowless companie;
And Scotland’s heart was ne’er sae blythe,
To see sae mony dobbies die.

And still the Armstrang stock leeves on
Throu sindry haufwit bastard lines.
The etion went frae ill tae waur.
They mareit intae Hines.


James Hogg

The Highlander

Re: Why Armstrongs have gun rights that Brits don't

Legg inn av The Highlander » 05 jun 2007 01:30:31

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:11:13 -1000, James Hogg
<jamie@hogg.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 20:08:20 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
panther@excelsior.com> wrote:


My Armstrongs, previously Border Reivers, et alii, in the Old Country, moved
from Tennessee to Texas soon after the WBTS.


One of the Armstrongs is the subject of a famous border ballad:


Johnie Armstrong

Sum speiks of lords, sum speiks of lairds,
Ach, let them speik and speik awa;
Of a navie man I sing a sang,
Sumtyme calld Laird of Kailua.

The king he wrytes a fleeching letter,
Wi' his ain hand in mockrife glee:
And he hath sent it to Johnie Armstrang,
To cum and speik with him speidily.

The reivin Armstrangs did convene,
They were a laithsome company:
"We’ll ryde and meit our lawful king,
And slaik his arse at Gilnockie."

They ran their mules on the Langum howm,
And brake their speirs, them fouterin men;
The ladys lukit frae their loft-windows,
"Wi’ luck they’ll nae come back again!"

When Johnie came before the king,
With a’ his men sae daft to see,
The king he pisht his breeks at aince,
He fillt the jing-bang can-o-pee.

"May I find grace, my sovereign liege,
Grace for my loyal men and me?
For my name it is Johnie Armstrang,
And subject of yours, my liege," said he.

"Away, away, thou traytor strang!
Out o’ my sicht thou mayst sune be!
I grantit never a traytor’s lyfe,
And nou I’ll not begin wi’ thee."

"Grant me my lyfe, my liege, my king,
And a bonny gift I will give to thee;
Full four-and-twenty fluid drams,
O’ Lagavulin, duty-free."

"Away, away, thou traytor strang!
Out o’ my sicht thou mayst sune be!
I grantit never a traytor’s lyfe,
And nou I’ll not begin wi’ thee."

John murdred was at Carlinrigg,
And a’ his thowless companie;
And Scotland’s heart was ne’er sae blythe,
To see sae mony dobbies die.

And still the Armstrang stock leeves on
Throu sindry haufwit bastard lines.
The etion went frae ill tae waur.
They mareit intae Hines.


James Hogg


LOL! Aye, ye ken the Braid Scots aa recht!

WJhonson

Re: Keith's of Inverugie

Legg inn av WJhonson » 05 jun 2007 02:34:17

<<In a message dated 06/04/07 17:39:55 Pacific Standard Time, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
2.=Sir Edward Keith of Syntoun, died before 1350
married (1) Isabella Syntoun
married (2) Christian Menteith, dau of Sir John Menteith and Ellen of Mar
children 1st marriage 1.William see nr.3,
not sure which marriage 2.John, see nr 4
2nd marriage >>


I am not certain that placing Christian as the second wife of Edward Sr (as opposed to placing her as the wife of Edward JR) is warranted. See this quote

"Keith: Sintoun, Inverugy, Ludquhon, Ravinscraig", by Donald M Mackintosh, FSA Scot. 1998. McCormick, SC
page 4 stating that "On 21 May 1343 Sir John de Menteith, the younger, Lord of Arane, Scipinche and Knapdale granted to Edward de Keth, knt., the son (filio) and Christian his spouse the grantor's sister, the lands of Lodcarne and Perthok in the Earldom of Buchin."

We see here that the source states that his underlying source actually says when speaking about Edward de Keth and Christian his spouse, "filio". and that this was in 1343.

There would be no reason to call Edward Sr "filio" but there would be a very good reason to call Edward Jr "filio".

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Keith's of Inverugie

Legg inn av WJhonson » 05 jun 2007 02:37:47

<<In a message dated 06/04/07 17:39:55 Pacific Standard Time, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
3.Janet Keith, married (1) Sir David Barclay, died before 8 September 1368,
son of Sir David Barclay and Margaret de Brechin
married (2) before 13 April 1370 Sir Thomas Erskine, of That Ilk, died 11
November 1403/18 May 1404, son of Sir Robert Erskine, High Chamberlain of
Scotland, and Beatrix Lindsay >>


This can be made a little more specific by noting that on 8 Sep 1368 she calls herself "Janet de Barclay" while she is granting lands, by herself, that is, in her own right. So I submit that they were married *between* 8 Sep 1368 and 13 Apr 1370

Will Johnson

Ken Ozanne

Re: Early Yorkshire Charters

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 05 jun 2007 09:52:10

John,
You are almost right. But Volumes 1 and 2 are from the 1914 edition (4
volumes I think) and vol 3 from the 1916 edition, which is 6 volumes. Even
so, there didn't appear to be a lot of overlap at a quick glance.

Perhaps one of the better connected members of the group could tell us a
bit more about the various editions.

I'd also like to hear about availability of things like this in
Australian libraries.

Best,
Ken

On 5/6/07 5:45, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
<gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: John Watson <WatsonJohnM@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:00:05 -0000
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Early Yorkshire Charters Vols 1 - 3 Online

Somebody here asked me the other day if I had access to Early
Yorkshire Charters - I said no, but I spoke too soon:

Here are the first three volumes - free to anyone (download if you
want)

Vol 1 http://www.archive.org/details/earlyyor ... 01farruoft

Vol 2 http://www.archive.org/details/earlyyor ... 02farruoft

Vol 3 http://www.archive.org/details/earlyyor ... 03farruoft

Regards,

John

Peter Stewart

Re: Early Yorkshire Charters

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 05 jun 2007 12:13:45

On Jun 5, 6:52 pm, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:
John,
You are almost right. But Volumes 1 and 2 are from the 1914 edition (4
volumes I think) and vol 3 from the 1916 edition, which is 6 volumes. Even
so, there didn't appear to be a lot of overlap at a quick glance.

Perhaps one of the better connected members of the group could tell us a
bit more about the various editions.

I'd also like to hear about availability of things like this in
Australian libraries.

The volumes available for download from the URLs posted by John are
all from the same edition - this is the original publication, printed
for the editor, William Farrer, in Edinburgh between 1914 & 1916.
There are three volumes, with a separate index. The full title is
_Early Yorkshire Charters, Being a Collection of Documents Anterior to
the Thirteenth Century Made from the Public Records, Monastic
Chartularies, Roger Dodsworth's Manuscripts and Other Available
Sources_. It is held in three Australian libraries, and is the second
item that will come up from a search for "Early Yorkshire Charters" at
http://librariesaustralia.nla.gov.au/apps/kss.

The second edition, that will come up as the first item and is held
complete in two Australian libraries, is titled _Early Yorkshire
Charters, Based on the Manuscripts of the Late William Farrer_, edited
by Charles Travis Clay. This was published in 9 volumes for the
Yorkshire Archaeological Society between 1935 & 1965, in the Record
Series as extra series nos. 1-3 and 5-10.

In the overall numbering, the original edition comprises volumes 1-3
(the index does not count) and the second edition volumes 4-12.

Peter Stewart

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Early Yorkshire Charters

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 06 jun 2007 03:31:46

Peter Stewart wrote:
On Jun 5, 6:52 pm, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:

John,
You are almost right. But Volumes 1 and 2 are from the 1914 edition (4
volumes I think) and vol 3 from the 1916 edition, which is 6 volumes. Even
so, there didn't appear to be a lot of overlap at a quick glance.

Perhaps one of the better connected members of the group could tell us a
bit more about the various editions.

I'd also like to hear about availability of things like this in
Australian libraries.


The volumes available for download from the URLs posted by John are
all from the same edition - this is the original publication, printed
for the editor, William Farrer, in Edinburgh between 1914 & 1916.
There are three volumes, with a separate index. The full title is
_Early Yorkshire Charters, Being a Collection of Documents Anterior to
the Thirteenth Century Made from the Public Records, Monastic
Chartularies, Roger Dodsworth's Manuscripts and Other Available
Sources_. It is held in three Australian libraries, and is the second
item that will come up from a search for "Early Yorkshire Charters" at
http://librariesaustralia.nla.gov.au/apps/kss.

The second edition, that will come up as the first item and is held
complete in two Australian libraries, is titled _Early Yorkshire
Charters, Based on the Manuscripts of the Late William Farrer_, edited
by Charles Travis Clay. This was published in 9 volumes for the
Yorkshire Archaeological Society between 1935 & 1965, in the Record
Series as extra series nos. 1-3 and 5-10.

In the overall numbering, the original edition comprises volumes 1-3
(the index does not count) and the second edition volumes 4-12.

Peter Stewart



Hi John

If you do not live near these libraries, you can also order microfilm of
the books from the LDS.

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/fhlcatalog/

Kind Regards

Paul

John Watson

Re: Early Yorkshire Charters

Legg inn av John Watson » 06 jun 2007 04:15:17

On Jun 6, 10:31 am, Paul Mackenzie <paul.macken...@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
On Jun 5, 6:52 pm, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:

John,
You are almost right. But Volumes 1 and 2 are from the 1914 edition (4
volumes I think) and vol 3 from the 1916 edition, which is 6 volumes. Even
so, there didn't appear to be a lot of overlap at a quick glance.

Perhaps one of the better connected members of the group could tell us a
bit more about the various editions.

I'd also like to hear about availability of things like this in
Australian libraries.

The volumes available for download from the URLs posted by John are
all from the same edition - this is the original publication, printed
for the editor, William Farrer, in Edinburgh between 1914 & 1916.
There are three volumes, with a separate index. The full title is
_Early Yorkshire Charters, Being a Collection of Documents Anterior to
the Thirteenth Century Made from the Public Records, Monastic
Chartularies, Roger Dodsworth's Manuscripts and Other Available
Sources_. It is held in three Australian libraries, and is the second
item that will come up from a search for "Early Yorkshire Charters" at
http://librariesaustralia.nla.gov.au/apps/kss.

The second edition, that will come up as the first item and is held
complete in two Australian libraries, is titled _Early Yorkshire
Charters, Based on the Manuscripts of the Late William Farrer_, edited
by Charles Travis Clay. This was published in 9 volumes for the
Yorkshire Archaeological Society between 1935 & 1965, in the Record
Series as extra series nos. 1-3 and 5-10.

In the overall numbering, the original edition comprises volumes 1-3
(the index does not count) and the second edition volumes 4-12.

Peter Stewart

Hi John

If you do not live near these libraries, you can also order microfilm of
the books from the LDS.

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/fhlcatalog/

Kind Regards

Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the suggestions, but

(a) I live in Kuala Lumpur - so these books are unlikely to be in any
library within half a continent

(b) I could order the microfiche - but then I would have to buy a
fiche reader, which isn't cheap

(c) I come from Yorkshire - where we appreciate owt for nowt (free
stuff)

Regards,

John

Andrew and Inge

RE: Peter Frost and "European hair and eye color: A case off

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 06 jun 2007 06:41:51

It is not true that Sweden is 80% blonde. No population on Earth is even
majority blond.

Nor is Scandinavia the most blonde place in Europe. This is coming from an
old theory about a pure Nordic race which the Nazis found particularly
attractive (which is of course NOT to say that anyone considering the theory
should feel guilty). In fact the homelands of the Slavs, around Poland and
Western Ukraine, are said to be the most blonde populations on Earth.

Concerning the reasons for that I think the most important thing to know is
that there is no scientific consensus, just shots in the dark, including
even a theory that blondeness is a trait coming from interbreeding with
Neanderthals (who lived in the same region where blondeness seems to come
from).

Regards
Andrew Lancaster

-----Original Message-----
From: samsloan [mailto:samhsloan@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2007 4:05 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Peter Frost and "European hair and eye color: A case
offrequency-dependent sexual selection?"


The article by Peter Frost has a map on page 2 showing that in Central
Sweden, Central Norway and Southern Finland, more than 80% of the
population has blond hair. However, in areas further to the north, the
Laplanders have black hair and darker skin. That is because they eat
seals and fish, which even women can catch. Also, infanticide is
practiced. They kill some of their baby girls, so the male and female
populations remain equal and everybody has enough to eat and every
woman has a man to help her reproduce.

Another question is why only Scandinavians are more than 80% blond.
Why not the peoples of Northern Siberia and Northern North America?

Peter Stewart

Re: Early Yorkshire Charters

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 06 jun 2007 07:11:20

On Jun 5, 9:13 pm, Peter Stewart <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
On Jun 5, 6:52 pm, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:

John,
You are almost right. But Volumes 1 and 2 are from the 1914 edition (4
volumes I think) and vol 3 from the 1916 edition, which is 6 volumes. Even
so, there didn't appear to be a lot of overlap at a quick glance.

Perhaps one of the better connected members of the group could tell us a
bit more about the various editions.

I'd also like to hear about availability of things like this in
Australian libraries.

The volumes available for download from the URLs posted by John are
all from the same edition - this is the original publication, printed
for the editor, William Farrer, in Edinburgh between 1914 & 1916.
There are three volumes, with a separate index. The full title is
_Early Yorkshire Charters, Being a Collection of Documents Anterior to
the Thirteenth Century Made from the Public Records, Monastic
Chartularies, Roger Dodsworth's Manuscripts and Other Available
Sources_. It is held in three Australian libraries, and is the second
item that will come up from a search for "Early Yorkshire Charters" athttp://librariesaustralia.nla.gov.au/apps/kss.

The second edition, that will come up as the first item and is held
complete in two Australian libraries, is titled _Early Yorkshire
Charters, Based on the Manuscripts of the Late William Farrer_, edited
by Charles Travis Clay. This was published in 9 volumes for the
Yorkshire Archaeological Society between 1935 & 1965, in the Record
Series as extra series nos. 1-3 and 5-10.

In the overall numbering, the original edition comprises volumes 1-3
(the index does not count) and the second edition volumes 4-12.

I had forgotten details of the index to Farrer's original three
volumes, mentioned above - this was published in 1942 as Yorkshire
Archaeological Society Record Series, extra series no. 4, prepared by
Charles and Edith Clay.

Individual sub-titles of the volumes edited by Sir Charles Clay are as
follows:

4 - The Honour of Richmond, part 1 (YAS Record Series, extra no. 1)
5 - The Honour of Richmond, part 2 (YAS Record Series, extra no. 2)
6 - The Paynel Fee (YAS Record Series, extra no. 3)
7 - The Honour of Skipton (YAS Record Series, extra no. 5)
8 - The Honour of Warenne (YAS Record Series, extra no. 6)
9 - The Stuteville Fee (YAS Record Series, extra no. 7)
10 - The Trussebut Fee, with some chapters of the Ros Fee (YAS Record
Series, extra no. 8)
11 - The Percy Fee (YAS Record Series, extra no. 9)
12 - The Tison Fee (YAS Record Series, extra no. 10)

Peter Stewart

norenxaq

Re: Peter Frost and "European hair and eye color: A case of

Legg inn av norenxaq » 06 jun 2007 17:24:40

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 6/6/2007 9:06:38 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

it is my understanding that these women are desirable because they
are
viewed as subserviant. it has very little to do with beauty

So a blonde phillipino would be the most desireable.



naturally...


:>

Gjest

Re: Peter Frost and "European hair and eye color: A case of

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 jun 2007 18:29:02

In a message dated 6/6/2007 9:06:38 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
norenxaq@san.rr.com writes:

it is my understanding that these women are desirable because they are
viewed as subserviant. it has very little to do with beauty


So a blonde phillipino would be the most desireable.



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Gordon Banks

RE: Peter Frost and "European hair and eye color: A case off

Legg inn av Gordon Banks » 06 jun 2007 19:55:04

The loss of melanin which occurs in white, blond, blue-eyed people is
thought to be an adaptation of people living at high latitudes allowing
for greater absorption by the skin of the sun's rays which produce
vitamin D. Vitamin D can also be obtained by eating a diet of marine
animals and fish, so Eskimos don't have the selection pressure to lose
their melanin. Those whose ancestors have been living at high latitudes
the longest would be expected to be the whitest.

WJhonson

Re: Peter Frost and "European hair and eye color: A case off

Legg inn av WJhonson » 07 jun 2007 00:40:55

<<In a message dated 06/06/07 11:55:52 Pacific Standard Time, geb@gordonbanks.com writes:
Vitamin D can also be obtained by eating a diet of marine
animals and fish, so Eskimos don't have the selection pressure to lose
their melanin. Those whose ancestors have been living at high latitudes
the longest would be expected to be the whitest. >>


It's one theory. For this theory to work you'd have to show that not only did the peoples in the middle part of Sweden *not* eat fish, but that people with the same ancestral type in other areas where they didn't lose their dark hair *did* eat fish.

I'm not a believer in this sort of theorization, it all strikes me as "creating an explanation to fit *perceived facts* by a lot of hand waving and long words."

There is really, imho, no explanation for sexual selection. It's more akin to the Great Tulip Bubble, if enough people think X is an attractive trait pretty soon there's a run on X. Meanwhile along comes a new disease which wipes out 90% of everyone who has the X trait and some ethnologist comes up with a nifty explanation which is completely irrelevant.

Will Johnson

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Early Yorkshire Charters

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 07 jun 2007 00:54:36

John Watson wrote:
On Jun 6, 10:31 am, Paul Mackenzie <paul.macken...@ozemail.com.au
wrote:

Peter Stewart wrote:

On Jun 5, 6:52 pm, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:

John,
You are almost right. But Volumes 1 and 2 are from the 1914 edition (4
volumes I think) and vol 3 from the 1916 edition, which is 6 volumes. Even
so, there didn't appear to be a lot of overlap at a quick glance.

Perhaps one of the better connected members of the group could tell us a
bit more about the various editions.

I'd also like to hear about availability of things like this in
Australian libraries.

The volumes available for download from the URLs posted by John are
all from the same edition - this is the original publication, printed
for the editor, William Farrer, in Edinburgh between 1914 & 1916.
There are three volumes, with a separate index. The full title is
_Early Yorkshire Charters, Being a Collection of Documents Anterior to
the Thirteenth Century Made from the Public Records, Monastic
Chartularies, Roger Dodsworth's Manuscripts and Other Available
Sources_. It is held in three Australian libraries, and is the second
item that will come up from a search for "Early Yorkshire Charters" at
http://librariesaustralia.nla.gov.au/apps/kss.

The second edition, that will come up as the first item and is held
complete in two Australian libraries, is titled _Early Yorkshire
Charters, Based on the Manuscripts of the Late William Farrer_, edited
by Charles Travis Clay. This was published in 9 volumes for the
Yorkshire Archaeological Society between 1935 & 1965, in the Record
Series as extra series nos. 1-3 and 5-10.

In the overall numbering, the original edition comprises volumes 1-3
(the index does not count) and the second edition volumes 4-12.

Peter Stewart

Hi John

If you do not live near these libraries, you can also order microfilm of
the books from the LDS.

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/fhlcatalog/

Kind Regards

Paul


Hi Paul,

Thanks for the suggestions, but

(a) I live in Kuala Lumpur - so these books are unlikely to be in any
library within half a continent

(b) I could order the microfiche - but then I would have to buy a
fiche reader, which isn't cheap

(c) I come from Yorkshire - where we appreciate owt for nowt (free
stuff)

Regards,

John

Hi John


My apologies. I addressed my reply to the wrong person. I think it
should have been Ken. Notwithstanding, I like owt for nowt too.

Regards

Paul

Peter Stewart

Re: Early Yorkshire Charters

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 07 jun 2007 00:58:02

On Jun 6, 12:22 pm, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:
On 6/6/07 6:30, "gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com"

<snip>

I tried the librariesaustralia site a year or so back but it seems to
have improved significantly. I remember then that I searched inter alia for
Settipani (maybe just Christian Settipani) and had no hits. At least the
site now knows of three of his books even if it says no Australian library
has any of them.

More books in print are picked up in the database now, one of the
changes that happened around the time it was opened to the public
(previously, as Kinetica, it was restricted to users with password
access). But the acquisitions policy of Australian libraries has not
improved at the same time...

I remember you saying a couple of years back that you tend to buy books
not held in an Australian library. In a way, I'm doing the same thing,
though I hadn't realized that this website has become useful in locating
material in Australian libraries. At least I have some material that it
doesn't think any Australian library has. Perhaps we can compare notes
sometime.

The main trouble with Australian libraries is Australian
librarianship. Until the end of the 1960s/early 1970s, through the
second phase of university foundations (Monash, UNSW, Flinders etc)
sensible practices generally applied: the catalogues of older
institutions were studied and reprints were acquired where possible to
fill major gaps. Some vague attempts at this were made into the 1980s
by newer universities (Macquarie, Griffith etc), but from the 1990s
onwards standards of commonsense in the profession have slipped
noticeably. Now the same books are acquired by most libraries, and
there is little or no co-ordination even with periodicals. Almost all
my ILLs for the past ten years have been international.

Meanwhile libraries as venerable as the Baillieu, the Fisher, NLA and
SLV are not maintaining much less increasing the comprehensiveness of
their collections, such as ever was, by buying all important
publications in, for example, medieval history.

Genealogy is not a priority, understandably for academic libraries but
not for their larger state and civic counterparts.

The education of librarians has fallen to such a low that the
profession is heading for widespread disrepute that will make
recruitment of bright people even rarer. You have only to stand in a
queue and listen while waiting for a reference librarian to realise
how little these people need to know nowadays to get their jobs, as
they plod along tying to catch up with a simple question, get
flummoxed, waste everyone's time and fail in the end to provide a
useful, much less efficient, service.

There are notable exceptions, of course, but many of the best are now
raising families or have found other less frustrating pursuits outside
the system that is letting down itself, and the public that pays for
it.

Peter Stewart

Leo van de Pas

Re: Ansouis, ancient home of the Sabran family

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 07 jun 2007 02:49:27

Dear Tony,
This is an interesting story, but you are aware that the original family
died out in the 1800s and the last one adopted twin-nephews of his wife and
they continued the name and title till the present. The present (8th) Duc de
Sabran married in 1997 and by 2001 appears not to have children, but there
are quite a few males in line to the title and, let's hope, there will be
Ducs de Sabran for many more years.

The list of genealogically inclined descendants is quite fascinating :
Gordon Banks, Brice Clagett, James Cummings, Ian Fettes, John Steele Gordon,
Gordon R. Hale, Tony Hoskins, Malinda Jones, Will Johnson, Peter de Loriol,
Andrew MacEwen, Doug McDonald, Grant Menzies, George Andrews Moriarty, Brom
Nichol Jr., Merilyn Pedrick, Tim Powys-Lybbe, John Ravilious, William Addams
Reitwiesner, Gary Boyd Roberts, Walter Lee Sheppard Jr., Sam Sloan, Louise
Staley, Don Stone, Gilbert van Studnitz, Hans Vogels, Mike Welch, Kelsey
Williams

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:38 AM
Subject: Ansouis, ancient home of the Sabran family


Perhaps of interest. From _Point de Vue_ (30 mai-5 juin 2007).

Ansouis - home of the Sabran family for a millennium - is for sale.

Many of us descend from the Sabran lords of Ansouis, most numerously
though Eleanor of Provence, Queen of England * great-great
granddaughter of Rainon I de Sabran dit du Caylar, Seigneur du Caylar et
d'Ansouis (fl. 1155). More recent Sabran descents come to some of us
descending from Giovanna/Gorizia de Sabran (d.c. 1378), wife of Niccolò
Orsini, Conte di Nola.

"Le duc et la duchesse de Sabran-Pontèves sont morts respectivement
en 1973 et 1988. Depuis lors, leurs quatre enfants n'ont pas réussi à
se mettre d'accord sur un partage équitable de la succession, que
seule permet alors une vente judiciaire. C'est ainsi que seront
prochainement vendus, non seulement le château d'Ansouis mais aussi le
reste du patrimoine immobilier Sabran-Pontèves au tribunal de grand
instance de Paris. La vente aura lieu le 29 octobre 2007.

Pour une fois, il n'est pas question de probèmes financiers. Leurs
enfants, l'actuel duc de Sabran, les comtes Jean et Géraud de Sabran
et leur s*ur, S.A.R. la duchesse d'Orléans, ne parvenant pas à
s'accorder sur la valeur et le partage de ces biens, ils devront
être vendus aux enchères.

C'en est donc fini! Ansouis, la perle du Luberon, la demeaure de
saint Elzéar st sainte Dauphine, la place forte sur laquellt les Sabran
règnent depuis plus de mille ans, Ansouis a vécu."

Sad to see another ancient stammsitz lost. Perhaps a consortium of
Sabran descendants should be formed to consider a buy-out, before it's
too late!

Tony Hoskins


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Ansouis, ancient home of the Sabran family

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 07 jun 2007 03:04:03

Yes, that's very sad that after so long it should go out of the family.
Perhaps the new owners will turn it into a fine hotel, and we can have a
family reunion there!

Merilyn







-------Original Message-------



From: Tony Hoskins

Date: 06/07/07 10:09:34

To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

Subject: Ansouis, ancient home of the Sabran family



Perhaps of interest. From _Point de Vue_ (30 mai-5 juin 2007).



Ansouis - home of the Sabran family for a millennium - is for sale.



Many of us descend from the Sabran lords of Ansouis, most numerously

though Eleanor of Provence, Queen of England * great-great

granddaughter of Rainon I de Sabran dit du Caylar, Seigneur du Caylar et

d'Ansouis (fl. 1155). More recent Sabran descents come to some of us

descending from Giovanna/Gorizia de Sabran (d.c. 1378), wife of Niccolò

Orsini, Conte di Nola.



"Le duc et la duchesse de Sabran-Pontèves sont morts respectivement

en 1973 et 1988. Depuis lors, leurs quatre enfants n'ont pas réussi à

se mettre d'accord sur un partage équitable de la succession, que

seule permet alors une vente judiciaire. C'est ainsi que seront

prochainement vendus, non seulement le château d'Ansouis mais aussi le

reste du patrimoine immobilier Sabran-Pontèves au tribunal de grand

instance de Paris. La vente aura lieu le 29 octobre 2007.



Pour une fois, il n'est pas question de probèmes financiers. Leurs

enfants, l'actuel duc de Sabran, les comtes Jean et Géraud de Sabran

et leur s*ur, S.A.R. la duchesse d'Orléans, ne parvenant pas à

s'accorder sur la valeur et le partage de ces biens, ils devront

être vendus aux enchères.



C'en est donc fini! Ansouis, la perle du Luberon, la demeaure de

saint Elzéar st sainte Dauphine, la place forte sur laquellt les Sabran

règnent depuis plus de mille ans, Ansouis a vécu."



Sad to see another ancient stammsitz lost. Perhaps a consortium of

Sabran descendants should be formed to consider a buy-out, before it's

too late!



Tony Hoskins





Anthony Hoskins

History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian

History and Genealogy Library

Sonoma County Library

3rd and E Streets

Santa Rosa, California 95404



707/545-0831, ext. 562



-------------------------------

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Gascoigne of Sedbury

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 jun 2007 05:01:51

Brad tells us that Sir William Gascoigne was "aged 36 in 1605" and that his grandparents Richard Gascoigne of Sedbury and Jane Norton had a pre-nuptial settlement dated 1 Apr 1548

These two facts together, can only mean that Sir John Gascoigne, Knt of Sedbury, who represents here the intervening generation (if any) could only have been born exactly 1549 or 1550

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Joan Mowbray, wife of Sir Thomas Gray, of H

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 jun 2007 10:49:02

I can add just a little more to the saga of the Greys of Ketteringham . . .

From "The History and Topography of Ketteringham" by James Hunter, 1851 ....

The possession of Ketteringham by the Greys continued till near the close of
the century. We find in Blomefield an extract from the Will of a Sir Henry
Grey, which professes to shew how it passed from Grey to Heveningham, the
family to whom it next belonged. This Will is dated September 28, 1492, and
contains the following clause :

"As touching my manors, lands, and tenements hereafter following, first, I
will that my lord Edmund of Suffolk, Whith all other the feoffees of my manor
of Ketteringham, alias Ketteringham Hall, shall stand seized thereof to the
use of me, Sir Henry Gray and Jane, my wife, term of our two lives and the
longest liver, for payment of debts and performance of our wills : and after
eight years after the death of the longest liver, to remain to Thomas
Heveningham, Esquire, son and heir of John Heveningham, Knight, and to Anne, his wife,
daughter of the said Dame Jane Gray, wife of the said Sir Henry Gray, and to
the heirs of their two bodies lawfully begotten." There is a remainder to
William Grey of Merton."

The daughter of Jane Scot (Dame Jane Grey) and Thomas Yarde was Anne Yarde
and she married Thomas Heveningham. Thomas Yarde was of Denton Court, nr. Elham
in Kent. Thomas Yarde was probably a son of John Yerde, Sheriff of Kent
1440/41. His mother is said to be a daughter of de Courtenay.

The Ketteringham estates of the Greys remained with the Heveningham family
from the late 14 hundreds until it was sold by the Heveninghams in 1717.
Thomas Heveningham did not enjoy his estates for very long as he died in January
1499/1500 when the Ketteringham estates were inherited by his son Sir John
Heveningham (d.1563) and his wife Alice Shelton. His wife Anne Yarde died in
1507. Both are buried at Ketteringham church where their tomb can still be
seen today.



Kind Regards,

Rose
Surrey / UK

MN

RE: Who is his mother?

Legg inn av MN » 08 jun 2007 16:10:42

Dear Leo,

ROMANO (or ROMANELLO) ORSINIs 'mother was the Simonetta you mentioned
below. Her family name still remain unknown (in my knowledge) except she
was cited as "Roman Lady".

You can check the genealogy at our site, to this link:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-le ... orsini.htm

Ciao

M


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Leo van de Pas
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:37 AM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Who is his mother?


Romano Orsini, who died in 1350, is an ancestor of at least 31 Gateway
Ancestors. And he is most likely on a very interesting crossroad as, if
we
can make sure who his mother was, he could be a descendant of
Charlemagne,
Alfred the Great, Emperor Friedrich II and many more historical figures.

His father Gentile II Orsini, a Roman Senator who died in 1314, was
married
four times
(1) Simonetta (source :Anton Ferrante Boschetti, Table X in Famiglie
Celebrie Italiane, published in 1930)
(2) Clarice di Ruffo (sources Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels,
Fuerstliche
Haeuser, 1959, page 543, and
(Turton, Plantagenet Ancestry page 224,
here
she made out to be the mother of Romano)
(3) Jacoba (Source Anton Ferrante Boschetti, Tafel X)
(4) Cubitosa (source Anton Fedrrante Boschetti, Tafel X)

Gentile II had about ten children, but by which wives did they belong?

Douglas Richardson's _Plantagenet Ancestry_ (p. 446.) gives "... ROMANO
(or ROMANELLO) ORSINI, signore of Pitigliano, Bardella, Cantalupo,
Vicovaro, etc., Justiciar of Naples, and, in right of his wife
[Anastasia de Montfort], Count of Nola and Soano, son and heir of
Gentile Orsini, signore of Pitigliano, Bardella, Catalupo, Vicovaro,
etc., Justiciar of Naples, by Jacopa, daughter of Giovanni Pierleoni."

As a source for the Orsini family Richardson gives the no longer
accessible
Sardimpex website.

In "Papal Genealogy" by George Williams, Page 22 shows only the name of
Gentile (no wives) and one son Romano.

Can anyone shine some light on this? Perhaps Turton was guilty of
wishful
thinking making Clarice di Ruffo mother of Romano as her ancestry is
quite
impressive.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



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Janet

Kennedy and Vaux

Legg inn av Janet » 08 jun 2007 16:34:02

Elizabeth Kennedy was she the daughter of Gilbert Kennedy of Dunure, 1st
Lord Kennedy B. Circa 1406 and his unknown wife.

It is said that she is and Elizabeth married John Vaux.

Source
Charles Mosley, editor, Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th
edition, 3 volumes (Wilmington, Delaware, U.S.A.: Burke's Peerage
(Genealogical Books) Ltd, 2003), volume 1, page 263. Hereinafter cited as
Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 107th edition

Janet

John Higgins

Re: Gascoigne puzzle

Legg inn av John Higgins » 08 jun 2007 17:47:25

Leo:

Gascoigne pedigrees in at least two different visitations of Yorkshire
(Flower and Glover) make Joan the wife of Sir Henry Vavasour the daughter of
the Sir William Vavasour who mar. Margaret Clarell. This is also shown in
Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees, which no doubt relied on the visitations as
well as other information.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:06 AM
Subject: Gascoigne puzzle


Burke's Peerage 1999 page 2876

Henry Vavasour, born circa 1402, died just before 15 January 1452/3
married Joan Langton
their son
Sir Henry Vavasour, died 22 December 1499, married Joan Gascoigne,
daughter of Sir William Gascoigne
they had children :
1. William dsp 1500
2. Henry born ca.1456
and probably more children

This makes me guess that William dsp 1500 was probably born about 1454,
and there could have been older sisters. But if their parents, Sir Henry

Vavasour and Joan Gascoigne, were married about 1452, would Joan Gascoigne
have been born about 1430/1435?
Taking into account the information I have on the early generations of the
Gascoigne's, it makes me guess that Joan was a daughter of William Gascoigne

of Gawthorpe and Margaret Clarell.
Burke's Peerage makes Joan's father a Sir, but Gerald Paget, in Ancestors
of Prince Charles (Q99789) does not......that is of course if they are the

same person.
Does anyone know?
With many thanks,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



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John Higgins

Re: Vavasour puzzle

Legg inn av John Higgins » 08 jun 2007 18:00:24

There's a good pedigree of the Scropes in "Extinct and Dormant Peerages of
the Northern Counties of England" [1913], by the noted genealogist J. W.
Clay. Clay assigns the four married daughters you note below to Henry, 6th
Lord Scrope, rather than Henry, 7th Lord Scrope. Apparently BEP was wrong -
again.... - CSL was right for once.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:40 AM
Subject: Vavasour puzzle


Burke's Peerage 1999 page 2876 shows

John Vavasour, married Anne Scrope, daughter of 6th Lord (Baron) Scrope
(of Bolton) and died 11 August 1524.
Their eldest (?) son Sir William Vavasour was born 20 November 1514.
--------------------------------------------------

Henry Scrope, 6th Lord Scrope of Bolton, ca.1468-1506, married Lady
Elizabeth Percy, according to Burke's Extinct Peerage they had two sons and

four daughters Elizabeth, Katherine, Agnes and Jane (no spouses given for
these four)
Henry Scrope, 7th Lord Scrope of Bolton ca.1480-1533 married twice, his
first wife died in 1501 and they had two daughters, Alice and Elizabeth, he

then married Mabel Dacre and they had one son and four daughters Anne
according to Burke's Extinct Peerage she married John Vavasour, Joane
married John Lord Lumley, Elizabeth married Sir Bryan Stapleton and Ann
married to Thomas Ryther of Harewood.
I just cannot believe that Burke's Extinct Peerage is correct. Anne Scrope
wife of John Vavasour, surely according to the above was born 1503/1504 at

the earliest, but then to give birth 20 November 1514, seems highly
unlikely.
------------------
Cahiers de Saint Louis, page 825 gives a different situation.

Henry Scrope, 6th Lord Scrope of Bolton (died 1506) married Elizabeth
Percy and they had eight children
1.Henry 7th Lord
2. John who has posterity
3.Agnes married Thomas Ryther
4.Elizabeth married to Bryan Stapleton
5.Joan married to John Lord Lumley
6.Eleanor
7.Catherine
8.Anne married to John Vavasour


Can anyone add to this?
With many thanks,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

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John P. Ravilious

Re: Kennedy and Vaux

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 08 jun 2007 18:23:15

Dear Janet,

I have seen it put about that Gilbert Kennedy of Dunure (d. aft 2
Nov 1404), husband of Agnes Maxwell and grandfather of Gilbert
Kennedy, 1st Lord Kennedy, had such a daughter Elizabeth: however, I
have seen no evidence to support this.

The account in Scots Peerage identifies many sons (legitimate and
not) of the earlier Gilbert, and a host of sons and daughters of
Gilbert, Lord Kennedy his grandson (d. aft 6 Mar 1478/9), but no such
Elizabeth. The text of the appropriate volume (SP II:448 et seq.) can
be seen courtesy of Googlebooks at

http://books.google.com/books?id=ELEEAA ... ISO-8859-1

Should I find some relevant documentation re: this alleged Vaus-
Kennedy marriage, I will pass that along.

Cheers,

John







On Jun 8, 10:33?am, "Janet" <mon...@getgoin.net> wrote:
Elizabeth Kennedy was she the daughter of Gilbert Kennedy of Dunure, 1st
Lord Kennedy B. Circa 1406 and his unknown wife.

It is said that she is and Elizabeth married John Vaux.

Source
Charles Mosley, editor, Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th
edition, 3 volumes (Wilmington, Delaware, U.S.A.: Burke's Peerage
(Genealogical Books) Ltd, 2003), volume 1, page 263. Hereinafter cited as
Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 107th edition

Janet

barbarapsmith

RE: Maria de Padilla: of Jewish descent?

Legg inn av barbarapsmith » 09 jun 2007 00:25:34

I don't know what information this journal may contain, but it may be worth
looking into.


Notices of Periodicals
"English Historical Review."1897; XII: 191-200


"Documents in the nunnery of Santa Clara dc Astadillo [1345-1372,
illustrating the life of Dofia Maria de Padilla and her family]"


Good luck!

Barbara

Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.








-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tony Hoskins
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 6:02 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Maria de Padilla: of Jewish descent?

Perhaps this question has arisen before?

Wikipedia [sub Maria de Padilla] claims Maria de Padilla - mistress and
wife of Pedro the Cruel, King of Castile, and ancestress to a number of
us - was of Jewish ancestry.

"María de Padilla (1334 - August 1361) was the mistress of Peter I,
King of Castile, whom she later married in 1353. She was a Castilian
noblewoman of converso Jewish descent." [citing Peggy K. Liss, "Isabel
the Queen," New York: Oxford University Press, 1992, p. 165; James
Reston, Jr. "Dogs of God," New York: Doubleday, 2005, p. 18.]

Does anyone know more on this?

Thanks.

Tony Hoskins

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

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WJhonson

Re: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 jun 2007 03:46:34

<<In a message dated 06/10/07 15:47:38 Pacific Standard Time, barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net writes:
10. Sir Peter (Piers) Dutton Elizabeth Butler

Boyer: 46; The Dutton Chronicle

11. Sir William Butler Elizabeth Standish >>


Stirnet here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... .htm#link3
is showing that the Elizabeth Butler who married Piers Dutton was the daughter of Sir John Butler, not Sir William Butler as above.

So now that we've established that there are competing secondary sources, the next step would be to *quote* exactly what each source says.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: "Better" Royal Descent for Joseph Bolles/ Thomas Bradbur

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 jun 2007 04:14:41

Doug what is the source that Cecily Fleming married Robert Waterton "about 1407" as you stated or implied in your last message.

By the way, I agree that in the original posting she is put in the wrong family.
Her father was a Robert but that Robert Fleming of Woodhall and Methley, brother of Richard Fleming who was Bishop of Lincoln 1420

So this Cecily should be a few generations earlier.

Will Johnson

Ken Ozanne

Re: Registrum Honoris de Morton

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 11 jun 2007 08:33:00

John,
I searched for all the words Registrum Honoris Morton on Google Books
and found both volumes downloadable even in Australia.

Best,
Ken

On 11/6/07 6:40, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
<gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:36:49 -0700
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Graham of Dalkeith: their Comyn ancestry

CC: of earlier message to Alex


Dear Alex,

Thanks for your rapid review, and replies. We are indeed
indebted to Prof. Barrow, a fact already known, and now nicely
reinforced. Also to Dr. Stringer, with whom I do not always agree,
but for whose efforts I'm always appreciative.

This does seem to resolve the descent of Kilbucho, etc. and
provides a good deal more structure to the many documents provided in
the Reg. Honoris de Morton. The bad news is, I've not seen the 1st
volume except in a passing opportunity at the LOC; the good news is,
Vol II (with the Latin charter text) is available online, either with
a query in GoogleBooks of "Registrum Honoris Morton", or at

http://books.google.com/books?id=gLAEAA ... noris+mort
on&ie=ISO-8859-1#PPR8,M1

I have not seen the 1978 article by Prof. Barrow, although there
are myriad references to it on the WWW. When next I get a chance at
the LOC, I will see if this volume is available.

Again, my thanks for your views and reply.

Cheers,

John



On Jun 10, 12:51?am, Alex Maxwell Findlater
maxwellfindla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have sent this email to John and have now managed to upload the
chart, so that others may see it too.

Dear John

The attached will doubtless accord you some satisfaction and also a
small wonderment that yet again the indomitable Barrow has been here
already.

The article is in the 1978 Scottish Genealogis. He deals with four
families, MacWilliam, de Morville, Randolph and that of Master
Gamelin. This chart is, by the way, the only one.

I must confess that I was completely side-tracked by the FitzGilbert,
instead of "son of". I have always been wary of Fitz's, wondering
when they were anachronistic. Yet I happily accept the Fitz in the
FitzHerbert family and that of Warkworth. Perhaps it would be
possible to use fitz for filius/o and Fitz, when it has become
established as a surname. Meanwhile I shall probably continue to
wobble between "Fitz" and "son of" depending on context.

If I can post the chart somewhere on the web, I'll do that.

Good luck

Alex

The link is below:

http://heraldry-scotland.com/copgal/alb ... Boyville...

barbarapsmith

RE: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Legg inn av barbarapsmith » 11 jun 2007 16:13:05

Thank you Will. That is an interesting finding. Doug R., if you're reading
this, this is perhaps another possible MC line for the Yales.

Barbara


Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.
Project Chairman and Interviewer
Victoria County Historical Commission
Oral History Project



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of WJhonson
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:47 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

<<In a message dated 06/10/07 15:47:38 Pacific Standard Time,
barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net writes:
10. Sir Peter (Piers) Dutton Elizabeth Butler

Boyer: 46; The Dutton Chronicle

11. Sir William Butler Elizabeth Standish >>


Stirnet here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... .htm#link3
is showing that the Elizabeth Butler who married Piers Dutton was the
daughter of Sir John Butler, not Sir William Butler as above.

So now that we've established that there are competing secondary sources,
the next step would be to *quote* exactly what each source says.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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Kay Allen

RE: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 11 jun 2007 20:37:33

Could you pkease resend the line. I did not receive
it.

I have Sir Piers (d. 1433) marrying Elizabeth Butler
(d. 1433). She is the dtr. of Sir William Butler and
Elizabeth Havering. This is from the work on the
Butlers of Warrington, which is available on fiche
through the LDS system.

K
--- barbarapsmith <barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net>
wrote:

Thank you Will. That is an interesting finding.
Doug R., if you're reading
this, this is perhaps another possible MC line for
the Yales.

Barbara


Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.
Project Chairman and Interviewer
Victoria County Historical Commission
Oral History Project



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf
Of WJhonson
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:47 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

In a message dated 06/10/07 15:47:38 Pacific
Standard Time,
barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net writes:
10. Sir Peter (Piers) Dutton Elizabeth
Butler

Boyer: 46; The Dutton Chronicle

11. Sir William Butler Elizabeth
Standish


Stirnet here

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... .htm#link3
is showing that the Elizabeth Butler who married
Piers Dutton was the
daughter of Sir John Butler, not Sir William Butler
as above.

So now that we've established that there are
competing secondary sources,
the next step would be to *quote* exactly what each
source says.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email
to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word
'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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WJhonson

Re: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 jun 2007 21:29:16

<<In a message dated 06/11/07 13:13:45 Pacific Standard Time, allenk@pacbell.net writes:
This is from the work on the
Butlers of Warrington, which is available on fiche
through the LDS system. >>


Could you give a full bibliographic citation? I don't know who the author of the above work you cite was, nor what year or what publisher.

What I cited was the stirnet cite, but as we now see, since secondary sources are in conflict, citing more secondary sources isn't going to help solve the problem, UNLESS we can show that the sources were incorrectly quoted.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 jun 2007 21:31:11

<<In a message dated 06/11/07 13:13:45 Pacific Standard Time, allenk@pacbell.net writes:
I have Sir Piers (d. 1433) marrying Elizabeth Butler
(d. 1433). >>


PS I believe stating that Elizabeth died IN 1433 is an error. Probably dittography or the actual source should state perhaps d BEF 1433 provided she is not named in his IPM, which I don't know.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Parentage of Joan Mowbray, wife of Sir Thomas Gray, of H

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 jun 2007 21:41:08

<<In a message dated 06/08/07 01:46:31 Pacific Standard Time, Maytree4 writes:
Thomas Heveningham did not enjoy his estates for very long as he died in January
1499/1500 when the Ketteringham estates were inherited by his son Sir John
Heveningham (d.1563) and his wife Alice Shelton. >>


Thanks for these details. I think you mean (d 1536)
IPM 28H8 and 31H8

Will Johnson

barbarapsmith

RE: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Legg inn av barbarapsmith » 11 jun 2007 22:15:22

Thank you, Kay. I'll be interested in looking over this material.

Barbara



Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.
Project Chairman and Interviewer
Victoria County Historical Commission
Oral History Project






-----Original Message-----
From: Kay Allen [mailto:allenk@pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 3:01 PM
To: barbarapsmith; 'WJhonson'; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

If the dates I have are correct, Elizabeth would,
indeed be a sister of William, and a daughter of John
and Alice. If anyone has access to "The Butlers of
Warrington", that shoul give more information.

K
--- barbarapsmith <barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net>
wrote:

Thank you Will. That is an interesting finding.
Doug R., if you're reading
this, this is perhaps another possible MC line for
the Yales.

Barbara


Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.
Project Chairman and Interviewer
Victoria County Historical Commission
Oral History Project



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf
Of WJhonson
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:47 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

In a message dated 06/10/07 15:47:38 Pacific
Standard Time,
barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net writes:
10. Sir Peter (Piers) Dutton Elizabeth
Butler

Boyer: 46; The Dutton Chronicle

11. Sir William Butler Elizabeth
Standish


Stirnet here

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... .htm#link3
is showing that the Elizabeth Butler who married
Piers Dutton was the
daughter of Sir John Butler, not Sir William Butler
as above.

So now that we've established that there are
competing secondary sources,
the next step would be to *quote* exactly what each
source says.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email
to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word
'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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Kay Allen

RE: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 11 jun 2007 23:01:07

If the dates I have are correct, Elizabeth would,
indeed be a sister of William, and a daughter of John
and Alice. If anyone has access to "The Butlers of
Warrington", that shoul give more information.

K
--- barbarapsmith <barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net>
wrote:

Thank you Will. That is an interesting finding.
Doug R., if you're reading
this, this is perhaps another possible MC line for
the Yales.

Barbara


Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.
Project Chairman and Interviewer
Victoria County Historical Commission
Oral History Project



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf
Of WJhonson
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:47 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

In a message dated 06/10/07 15:47:38 Pacific
Standard Time,
barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net writes:
10. Sir Peter (Piers) Dutton Elizabeth
Butler

Boyer: 46; The Dutton Chronicle

11. Sir William Butler Elizabeth
Standish


Stirnet here

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... .htm#link3
is showing that the Elizabeth Butler who married
Piers Dutton was the
daughter of Sir John Butler, not Sir William Butler
as above.

So now that we've established that there are
competing secondary sources,
the next step would be to *quote* exactly what each
source says.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email
to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word
'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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the body of the message

barbarapsmith

RE: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Legg inn av barbarapsmith » 12 jun 2007 01:43:50

Thank you very much Kay. I had tried to pull it up, but didn't get
anywhere. I trust that you have received the re-send of the lineage I had
first sent to the group.

Barbara



Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.
Project Chairman and Interviewer
Victoria County Historical Commission
Oral History Project







-----Original Message-----
From: Kay Allen [mailto:allenk@pacbell.net]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 7:40 PM
To: WJhonson; barbarapsmith; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Dear Will,
Yes I will be so kind. since you couldn't check
familysearch.org for yourself. It is:

Annals of the Lords of Warrington for the first
five centuries after the conquest: with historical
notices of the place and neighborhood.

Beamont, William (1797?-1889)

Chetham Socieety, 1872-73. 2v. Index in vol 2 (V 87)

British microfiche 6023962-6023969.

I think you will find it far superior to anything I
have seen cited so far.
He was able to use primary source material.

K

--- WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 06/11/07 13:13:45 Pacific
Standard Time, allenk@pacbell.net writes:
This is from the work on the
Butlers of Warrington, which is available on fiche
through the LDS system.


Could you give a full bibliographic citation? I
don't know who the author of the above work you cite
was, nor what year or what publisher.

What I cited was the stirnet cite, but as we now
see, since secondary sources are in conflict, citing
more secondary sources isn't going to help solve the
problem, UNLESS we can show that the sources were
incorrectly quoted.

Will Johnson

Kay Allen

Re: Possible line from Yale to de Roos

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 12 jun 2007 02:44:02

Dear Will,
Yes I will be so kind. since you couldn't check
familysearch.org for yourself. It is:

Annals of the Lords of Warrington for the first
five centuries after the conquest: with historical
notices of the place and neighborhood.

Beamont, William (1797?-1889)

Chetham Socieety, 1872-73. 2v. Index in vol 2 (V 87)

British microfiche 6023962-6023969.

I think you will find it far superior to anything I
have seen cited so far.
He was able to use primary source material.

K

--- WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 06/11/07 13:13:45 Pacific
Standard Time, allenk@pacbell.net writes:
This is from the work on the
Butlers of Warrington, which is available on fiche
through the LDS system.


Could you give a full bibliographic citation? I
don't know who the author of the above work you cite
was, nor what year or what publisher.

What I cited was the stirnet cite, but as we now
see, since secondary sources are in conflict, citing
more secondary sources isn't going to help solve the
problem, UNLESS we can show that the sources were
incorrectly quoted.

Will Johnson

Kay Allen

Re: Savage of Stainsby, and Avenel of Eskdale: a Ferrers des

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 12 jun 2007 03:04:02

Dear John,
In one of the Morris bros.' works on Shropshire, there
is a Walcheline Ferrers of Oakham, co. Rutland that
had a son William. This Walcheline
is grandson of Henry de Ferrers.

Hope this helps.

K
--- "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

Monday, 11 June, 2007


Dear Alex, Hap, et al.,

Two items of note, one factual and one
potential,
following on the earlier posts concerning the
ancestry of
Sir John de Graham of Dalkeith, &c. (d. 1337).

First, the relationship of the Avenels of
Eskdale, and
their Graham descendants, to the Avenel paramour of
William
'the Lion', King of Scots (d. 1214) is reflected in
the
following chart. This does not provide any other
relationship to the royal house of Scotland (the
Comyn
ancestry of the Grahams aside), but it does show a
near
kinship with the de Ros family, of Helmsley, Wark,
&c.
Sir William de Ros of Helmsley (d. ca. 1264) and
his
brother, Sir Robert de Ros of Wark, were in fact
2nd
cousins of the Avenel wife of Sir Henry de Graham
of
Dalkeith.


Robert Avenel = Sibyl [Sibilla]
lord of Eskdale I
d. 8 Mar 1184/5 I
________I___________
I I
William ~ NN Gervase Avenel =
Sibyl
'the Lion' I lord of Eskdale I
K of I d. 1219 I
Scots I I
_____I
_________________________I_________
I I I I
I
Isabel Gervase Roger Robert
William
= 1) Sir Robert (dvp) lord of clerk
de Brus (dsp) Eskdale
= 2) Sir Robert d. 1243
I de Ros I
__I______________ I
I I I
Sir William Sir Robert NN = Sir Henry de
Graham
de Ros of de Ros I of
Dalkeith
Helmsley of Wark I d. aft 5 Feb
1283/4
d. ca. 1264 d. 1269 I
I I I
V V V


The other item alluded to above involves the
Avenel
family and their otherwise unidentified relations.
On 13
June 1213, King John of England ordered a number of
hostages of the King of Scotland be released by
their
hosts, to be delivered to the King (of England) at
Portsmouth. One such letter is detailed in Bain's
Calendar
of Documents Pertaining to Scotland, addressed to
Saier de
Quincy, Earl of Winchester [1]. As Bain wrote,
there were


" Similar letters written to Robert de Vaux
concerning
the son of William de Vaux; to William de Mobray
concerning Nigel son of Philip de Mobray; to
William son
of Walkelin concerning the son of Gervase
Avenel;.." [2]

There has been much ink spilt in the past
concerning
such transactions, and the relationships between
the
hostages and their appointed hosts. In the case of
the
1213 transactions, I have seen no hostage-host
relationship
that did not also involve a known or discernable
kinship,
save one: that of the son of Gervase Avenel (likely
his
eldest son Gervase, who ob.v.p. before 1219) and
William
fitz Walkelin.

William fitz Walkelin was most likely a near
kinsman
of the family of de Ferrers, earls of Derby. He
held
lands in Stainsby, Derbyshire, which he had
obtained from
Henry II in 1170, and is recorded as continuing in
his
tenure there in 1212 [3]. He died sometime before
4 April
1218, when Robert (le) Savage, husband of his
deceased
daughter Hawise, fined to have seisin of her lands
in
Lincolnshire [4].

One interesting possibility would place Sibyl,
the
mother of Gervase Avenel 'the elder', as a daughter
of
William de Ferrers, earl of Derby and his wife
Sibyl
de Braose. This may be something of a stretch,
but
the chronology would work. We know that this
particular
William de Ferrers (d. at Acre before 21 Oct 1190)
had
a kinsman, Henry son of Robert son of Wakelin, to
whom
he granted lands of his aunt Letitia de Ferrers in
Passenham. Further, Earl William allegedly had a
brother
Walkelin, the father of Robert fitz Walkelin,
ancestor of
the Chaundos family (see SGM archives on this).
The
possiblity that William fitz Walkelin was a brother
of this
Robert would make it chronologically feasible
(although
not nearly proven) that Gervase Avenel's son -
possibly a
great-nephew of Earl William (d. 1190) and his
brother
Walkelin - was being hosted by Earl William's
nephew
William fitz Walkelin, a first cousin to Gervase
Avenel
in June 1213.

The identifiation of the parentage of William
fitz
Wakelin, and of his potential kinswoman (presumably
Sibyl,
mother or wife of Gervase Avenel) would be of great
interest to the Graham and Douglas descendants of
the
Avenels, and also to the Savage descendants of
William
fitz Wakelin. Should anyone have additional
thoughts or
documentation that either support or refute the
above
conjecture, that would be of great interest.

Cheers,

John *


NOTES

[1] Bain, Calendar of Documents Pertaining to
Scotland
I:100-101, cites Foedera I:113; and Close Roll
15
John, p. 1, m. 4. :

' 574. Concerning the K. of Scotland's
hostages.
The K. to S[aher] earl of Winchester.
Commands him on receipt, immediately to send the
K. by good and safe messengers, Reginald his own
son, and
the son of William de Veteripont, hostages of the
K. of
Scotland, who are in his custody by the K.'s order;
so that
they may be with the K. at Portsmouth on the vigil
of St.
John Baptist instant. Beaulieu. '


[2] Ibid.

=== message truncated ===

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Savage of Stainsby, and Avenel of Eskdale: a Ferrers des

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 12 jun 2007 03:14:50

Dear Kay et al

Is this the Walcherine de Ferrers whose wife was Alice Leche? I have him as
son of Henry and father of Isabel (Millicent) de Ferrers who married Roger
de Mortimer, making her a sister of the William you mention. Same family?

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick





-------Original Message-------



From: Kay Allen

Date: 06/12/07 10:32:12

To: John P. Ravilious; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Savage of Stainsby, and Avenel of Eskdale: a Ferrers descent ?



Dear John,

In one of the Morris bros.' works on Shropshire, there

is a Walcheline Ferrers of Oakham, co. Rutland that

had a son William. This Walcheline

is grandson of Henry de Ferrers.



Hope this helps.



K

--- "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:



Monday, 11 June, 2007





Dear Alex, Hap, et al.,



Two items of note, one factual and one

potential,

following on the earlier posts concerning the

ancestry of

Sir John de Graham of Dalkeith, &c. (d. 1337).



First, the relationship of the Avenels of

Eskdale, and

their Graham descendants, to the Avenel paramour of

William

'the Lion', King of Scots (d. 1214) is reflected in

the

following chart. This does not provide any other

relationship to the royal house of Scotland (the

Comyn

ancestry of the Grahams aside), but it does show a

near

kinship with the de Ros family, of Helmsley, Wark,

&c.

Sir William de Ros of Helmsley (d. ca. 1264) and

his

brother, Sir Robert de Ros of Wark, were in fact

2nd

cousins of the Avenel wife of Sir Henry de Graham

of

Dalkeith.





Robert Avenel = Sibyl [Sibilla]

lord of Eskdale I

d. 8 Mar 1184/5 I

________I___________

I I

William ~ NN Gervase Avenel =

Sibyl

'the Lion' I lord of Eskdale I

K of I d. 1219 I

Scots I I

_____I

_________________________I_________

I I I I

I

Isabel Gervase Roger Robert

William

= 1) Sir Robert (dvp) lord of clerk

de Brus (dsp) Eskdale

= 2) Sir Robert d. 1243

I de Ros I

__I______________ I

I I I

Sir William Sir Robert NN = Sir Henry de

Graham

de Ros of de Ros I of

Dalkeith

Helmsley of Wark I d. aft 5 Feb

1283/4

d. ca. 1264 d. 1269 I

I I I

V V V





The other item alluded to above involves the

Avenel

family and their otherwise unidentified relations.

On 13

June 1213, King John of England ordered a number of

hostages of the King of Scotland be released by

their

hosts, to be delivered to the King (of England) at

Portsmouth. One such letter is detailed in Bain's

Calendar

of Documents Pertaining to Scotland, addressed to

Saier de

Quincy, Earl of Winchester [1]. As Bain wrote,

there were





" Similar letters written to Robert de Vaux

concerning

the son of William de Vaux; to William de Mobray

concerning Nigel son of Philip de Mobray; to

William son

of Walkelin concerning the son of Gervase

Avenel;.." [2]



There has been much ink spilt in the past

concerning

such transactions, and the relationships between

the

hostages and their appointed hosts. In the case of

the

1213 transactions, I have seen no hostage-host

relationship

that did not also involve a known or discernable

kinship,

save one: that of the son of Gervase Avenel (likely

his

eldest son Gervase, who ob.v.p. before 1219) and

William

fitz Walkelin.



William fitz Walkelin was most likely a near

kinsman

of the family of de Ferrers, earls of Derby. He

held

lands in Stainsby, Derbyshire, which he had

obtained from

Henry II in 1170, and is recorded as continuing in

his

tenure there in 1212 [3]. He died sometime before

4 April

1218, when Robert (le) Savage, husband of his

deceased

daughter Hawise, fined to have seisin of her lands

in

Lincolnshire [4].



One interesting possibility would place Sibyl,

the

mother of Gervase Avenel 'the elder', as a daughter

of

William de Ferrers, earl of Derby and his wife

Sibyl

de Braose. This may be something of a stretch,

but

the chronology would work. We know that this

particular

William de Ferrers (d. at Acre before 21 Oct 1190)

had

a kinsman, Henry son of Robert son of Wakelin, to

whom

he granted lands of his aunt Letitia de Ferrers in

Passenham. Further, Earl William allegedly had a

brother

Walkelin, the father of Robert fitz Walkelin,

ancestor of

the Chaundos family (see SGM archives on this).

The

possiblity that William fitz Walkelin was a brother

of this

Robert would make it chronologically feasible

(although

not nearly proven) that Gervase Avenel's son -

possibly a

great-nephew of Earl William (d. 1190) and his

brother

Walkelin - was being hosted by Earl William's

nephew

William fitz Walkelin, a first cousin to Gervase

Avenel

in June 1213.



The identifiation of the parentage of William

fitz

Wakelin, and of his potential kinswoman (presumably

Sibyl,

mother or wife of Gervase Avenel) would be of great

interest to the Graham and Douglas descendants of

the

Avenels, and also to the Savage descendants of

William

fitz Wakelin. Should anyone have additional

thoughts or

documentation that either support or refute the

above

conjecture, that would be of great interest.



Cheers,



John *





NOTES



[1] Bain, Calendar of Documents Pertaining to

Scotland

I:100-101, cites Foedera I:113; and Close Roll

15

John, p. 1, m. 4. :



' 574. Concerning the K. of Scotland's

hostages.

The K. to S[aher] earl of Winchester.

Commands him on receipt, immediately to send the

K. by good and safe messengers, Reginald his own

son, and

the son of William de Veteripont, hostages of the

K. of

Scotland, who are in his custody by the K.'s order;

so that

they may be with the K. at Portsmouth on the vigil

of St.

John Baptist instant. Beaulieu. '





[2] Ibid.



=== message truncated ===





-------------------------------

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Savage of Stainsby, and Avenel of Eskdale: a Ferrers des

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 12 jun 2007 03:14:50

Dear Kay et al

Is this the Walcherine de Ferrers whose wife was Alice Leche? I have him as
son of Henry and father of Isabel (Millicent) de Ferrers who married Roger
de Mortimer, making her a sister of the William you mention. Same family?

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick





-------Original Message-------



From: Kay Allen

Date: 06/12/07 10:32:12

To: John P. Ravilious; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Savage of Stainsby, and Avenel of Eskdale: a Ferrers descent ?



Dear John,

In one of the Morris bros.' works on Shropshire, there

is a Walcheline Ferrers of Oakham, co. Rutland that

had a son William. This Walcheline

is grandson of Henry de Ferrers.



Hope this helps.



K

--- "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:



Monday, 11 June, 2007





Dear Alex, Hap, et al.,



Two items of note, one factual and one

potential,

following on the earlier posts concerning the

ancestry of

Sir John de Graham of Dalkeith, &c. (d. 1337).



First, the relationship of the Avenels of

Eskdale, and

their Graham descendants, to the Avenel paramour of

William

'the Lion', King of Scots (d. 1214) is reflected in

the

following chart. This does not provide any other

relationship to the royal house of Scotland (the

Comyn

ancestry of the Grahams aside), but it does show a

near

kinship with the de Ros family, of Helmsley, Wark,

&c.

Sir William de Ros of Helmsley (d. ca. 1264) and

his

brother, Sir Robert de Ros of Wark, were in fact

2nd

cousins of the Avenel wife of Sir Henry de Graham

of

Dalkeith.





Robert Avenel = Sibyl [Sibilla]

lord of Eskdale I

d. 8 Mar 1184/5 I

________I___________

I I

William ~ NN Gervase Avenel =

Sibyl

'the Lion' I lord of Eskdale I

K of I d. 1219 I

Scots I I

_____I

_________________________I_________

I I I I

I

Isabel Gervase Roger Robert

William

= 1) Sir Robert (dvp) lord of clerk

de Brus (dsp) Eskdale

= 2) Sir Robert d. 1243

I de Ros I

__I______________ I

I I I

Sir William Sir Robert NN = Sir Henry de

Graham

de Ros of de Ros I of

Dalkeith

Helmsley of Wark I d. aft 5 Feb

1283/4

d. ca. 1264 d. 1269 I

I I I

V V V





The other item alluded to above involves the

Avenel

family and their otherwise unidentified relations.

On 13

June 1213, King John of England ordered a number of

hostages of the King of Scotland be released by

their

hosts, to be delivered to the King (of England) at

Portsmouth. One such letter is detailed in Bain's

Calendar

of Documents Pertaining to Scotland, addressed to

Saier de

Quincy, Earl of Winchester [1]. As Bain wrote,

there were





" Similar letters written to Robert de Vaux

concerning

the son of William de Vaux; to William de Mobray

concerning Nigel son of Philip de Mobray; to

William son

of Walkelin concerning the son of Gervase

Avenel;.." [2]



There has been much ink spilt in the past

concerning

such transactions, and the relationships between

the

hostages and their appointed hosts. In the case of

the

1213 transactions, I have seen no hostage-host

relationship

that did not also involve a known or discernable

kinship,

save one: that of the son of Gervase Avenel (likely

his

eldest son Gervase, who ob.v.p. before 1219) and

William

fitz Walkelin.



William fitz Walkelin was most likely a near

kinsman

of the family of de Ferrers, earls of Derby. He

held

lands in Stainsby, Derbyshire, which he had

obtained from

Henry II in 1170, and is recorded as continuing in

his

tenure there in 1212 [3]. He died sometime before

4 April

1218, when Robert (le) Savage, husband of his

deceased

daughter Hawise, fined to have seisin of her lands

in

Lincolnshire [4].



One interesting possibility would place Sibyl,

the

mother of Gervase Avenel 'the elder', as a daughter

of

William de Ferrers, earl of Derby and his wife

Sibyl

de Braose. This may be something of a stretch,

but

the chronology would work. We know that this

particular

William de Ferrers (d. at Acre before 21 Oct 1190)

had

a kinsman, Henry son of Robert son of Wakelin, to

whom

he granted lands of his aunt Letitia de Ferrers in

Passenham. Further, Earl William allegedly had a

brother

Walkelin, the father of Robert fitz Walkelin,

ancestor of

the Chaundos family (see SGM archives on this).

The

possiblity that William fitz Walkelin was a brother

of this

Robert would make it chronologically feasible

(although

not nearly proven) that Gervase Avenel's son -

possibly a

great-nephew of Earl William (d. 1190) and his

brother

Walkelin - was being hosted by Earl William's

nephew

William fitz Walkelin, a first cousin to Gervase

Avenel

in June 1213.



The identifiation of the parentage of William

fitz

Wakelin, and of his potential kinswoman (presumably

Sibyl,

mother or wife of Gervase Avenel) would be of great

interest to the Graham and Douglas descendants of

the

Avenels, and also to the Savage descendants of

William

fitz Wakelin. Should anyone have additional

thoughts or

documentation that either support or refute the

above

conjecture, that would be of great interest.



Cheers,



John *





NOTES



[1] Bain, Calendar of Documents Pertaining to

Scotland

I:100-101, cites Foedera I:113; and Close Roll

15

John, p. 1, m. 4. :



' 574. Concerning the K. of Scotland's

hostages.

The K. to S[aher] earl of Winchester.

Commands him on receipt, immediately to send the

K. by good and safe messengers, Reginald his own

son, and

the son of William de Veteripont, hostages of the

K. of

Scotland, who are in his custody by the K.'s order;

so that

they may be with the K. at Portsmouth on the vigil

of St.

John Baptist instant. Beaulieu. '





[2] Ibid.



=== message truncated ===





-------------------------------

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Savage of Stainsby, and Avenel of Eskdale: a Ferrers des

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 12 jun 2007 03:14:55

Dear Kay et al

Is this the Walcherine de Ferrers whose wife was Alice Leche? I have him as
son of Henry and father of Isabel (Millicent) de Ferrers who married Roger
de Mortimer, making her a sister of the William you mention. Same family?

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick





-------Original Message-------



From: Kay Allen

Date: 06/12/07 10:32:12

To: John P. Ravilious; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Savage of Stainsby, and Avenel of Eskdale: a Ferrers descent ?



Dear John,

In one of the Morris bros.' works on Shropshire, there

is a Walcheline Ferrers of Oakham, co. Rutland that

had a son William. This Walcheline

is grandson of Henry de Ferrers.



Hope this helps.



K

--- "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:



Monday, 11 June, 2007





Dear Alex, Hap, et al.,



Two items of note, one factual and one

potential,

following on the earlier posts concerning the

ancestry of

Sir John de Graham of Dalkeith, &c. (d. 1337).



First, the relationship of the Avenels of

Eskdale, and

their Graham descendants, to the Avenel paramour of

William

'the Lion', King of Scots (d. 1214) is reflected in

the

following chart. This does not provide any other

relationship to the royal house of Scotland (the

Comyn

ancestry of the Grahams aside), but it does show a

near

kinship with the de Ros family, of Helmsley, Wark,

&c.

Sir William de Ros of Helmsley (d. ca. 1264) and

his

brother, Sir Robert de Ros of Wark, were in fact

2nd

cousins of the Avenel wife of Sir Henry de Graham

of

Dalkeith.





Robert Avenel = Sibyl [Sibilla]

lord of Eskdale I

d. 8 Mar 1184/5 I

________I___________

I I

William ~ NN Gervase Avenel =

Sibyl

'the Lion' I lord of Eskdale I

K of I d. 1219 I

Scots I I

_____I

_________________________I_________

I I I I

I

Isabel Gervase Roger Robert

William

= 1) Sir Robert (dvp) lord of clerk

de Brus (dsp) Eskdale

= 2) Sir Robert d. 1243

I de Ros I

__I______________ I

I I I

Sir William Sir Robert NN = Sir Henry de

Graham

de Ros of de Ros I of

Dalkeith

Helmsley of Wark I d. aft 5 Feb

1283/4

d. ca. 1264 d. 1269 I

I I I

V V V





The other item alluded to above involves the

Avenel

family and their otherwise unidentified relations.

On 13

June 1213, King John of England ordered a number of

hostages of the King of Scotland be released by

their

hosts, to be delivered to the King (of England) at

Portsmouth. One such letter is detailed in Bain's

Calendar

of Documents Pertaining to Scotland, addressed to

Saier de

Quincy, Earl of Winchester [1]. As Bain wrote,

there were





" Similar letters written to Robert de Vaux

concerning

the son of William de Vaux; to William de Mobray

concerning Nigel son of Philip de Mobray; to

William son

of Walkelin concerning the son of Gervase

Avenel;.." [2]



There has been much ink spilt in the past

concerning

such transactions, and the relationships between

the

hostages and their appointed hosts. In the case of

the

1213 transactions, I have seen no hostage-host

relationship

that did not also involve a known or discernable

kinship,

save one: that of the son of Gervase Avenel (likely

his

eldest son Gervase, who ob.v.p. before 1219) and

William

fitz Walkelin.



William fitz Walkelin was most likely a near

kinsman

of the family of de Ferrers, earls of Derby. He

held

lands in Stainsby, Derbyshire, which he had

obtained from

Henry II in 1170, and is recorded as continuing in

his

tenure there in 1212 [3]. He died sometime before

4 April

1218, when Robert (le) Savage, husband of his

deceased

daughter Hawise, fined to have seisin of her lands

in

Lincolnshire [4].



One interesting possibility would place Sibyl,

the

mother of Gervase Avenel 'the elder', as a daughter

of

William de Ferrers, earl of Derby and his wife

Sibyl

de Braose. This may be something of a stretch,

but

the chronology would work. We know that this

particular

William de Ferrers (d. at Acre before 21 Oct 1190)

had

a kinsman, Henry son of Robert son of Wakelin, to

whom

he granted lands of his aunt Letitia de Ferrers in

Passenham. Further, Earl William allegedly had a

brother

Walkelin, the father of Robert fitz Walkelin,

ancestor of

the Chaundos family (see SGM archives on this).

The

possiblity that William fitz Walkelin was a brother

of this

Robert would make it chronologically feasible

(although

not nearly proven) that Gervase Avenel's son -

possibly a

great-nephew of Earl William (d. 1190) and his

brother

Walkelin - was being hosted by Earl William's

nephew

William fitz Walkelin, a first cousin to Gervase

Avenel

in June 1213.



The identifiation of the parentage of William

fitz

Wakelin, and of his potential kinswoman (presumably

Sibyl,

mother or wife of Gervase Avenel) would be of great

interest to the Graham and Douglas descendants of

the

Avenels, and also to the Savage descendants of

William

fitz Wakelin. Should anyone have additional

thoughts or

documentation that either support or refute the

above

conjecture, that would be of great interest.



Cheers,



John *





NOTES



[1] Bain, Calendar of Documents Pertaining to

Scotland

I:100-101, cites Foedera I:113; and Close Roll

15

John, p. 1, m. 4. :



' 574. Concerning the K. of Scotland's

hostages.

The K. to S[aher] earl of Winchester.

Commands him on receipt, immediately to send the

K. by good and safe messengers, Reginald his own

son, and

the son of William de Veteripont, hostages of the

K. of

Scotland, who are in his custody by the K.'s order;

so that

they may be with the K. at Portsmouth on the vigil

of St.

John Baptist instant. Beaulieu. '





[2] Ibid.



=== message truncated ===





-------------------------------

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Kay Allen

Re: Savage of Stainsby, and Avenel of Eskdale: a Ferrers des

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 12 jun 2007 04:25:33

It doesn't show Walcheline's wife's name, but this is
the family to which I referred.

K
--- Merilyn Pedrick <pedricks@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

Dear Kay et al

Is this the Walcherine de Ferrers whose wife was
Alice Leche? I have him as
son of Henry and father of Isabel (Millicent) de
Ferrers who married Roger
de Mortimer, making her a sister of the William you
mention. Same family?

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick





-------Original Message-------



From: Kay Allen

Date: 06/12/07 10:32:12

To: John P. Ravilious; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com

Subject: Re: Savage of Stainsby, and Avenel of
Eskdale: a Ferrers descent ?



Dear John,

In one of the Morris bros.' works on Shropshire,
there

is a Walcheline Ferrers of Oakham, co. Rutland that

had a son William. This Walcheline

is grandson of Henry de Ferrers.



Hope this helps.



K

--- "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:



Monday, 11 June, 2007





Dear Alex, Hap, et al.,



Two items of note, one factual and one

potential,

following on the earlier posts concerning the

ancestry of

Sir John de Graham of Dalkeith, &c. (d. 1337).



First, the relationship of the Avenels of

Eskdale, and

their Graham descendants, to the Avenel paramour
of

William

'the Lion', King of Scots (d. 1214) is reflected
in

the

following chart. This does not provide any other

relationship to the royal house of Scotland (the

Comyn

ancestry of the Grahams aside), but it does show a

near

kinship with the de Ros family, of Helmsley, Wark,

&c.

Sir William de Ros of Helmsley (d. ca. 1264) and

his

brother, Sir Robert de Ros of Wark, were in fact

2nd

cousins of the Avenel wife of Sir Henry de Graham

of

Dalkeith.





Robert Avenel = Sibyl [Sibilla]

lord of Eskdale I

d. 8 Mar 1184/5 I

________I___________

I I

William ~ NN Gervase Avenel =

Sibyl

'the Lion' I lord of Eskdale I

K of I d. 1219 I

Scots I I

_____I

_________________________I_________

I I I I

I

Isabel Gervase Roger Robert

William

= 1) Sir Robert (dvp) lord of clerk

de Brus (dsp) Eskdale

= 2) Sir Robert d. 1243

I de Ros I

__I______________ I

I I I

Sir William Sir Robert NN = Sir Henry de

Graham

de Ros of de Ros I of

Dalkeith

Helmsley of Wark I d. aft 5 Feb

1283/4

d. ca. 1264 d. 1269 I

I I I

V V V





The other item alluded to above involves the

Avenel

family and their otherwise unidentified relations.

On 13

June 1213, King John of England ordered a number
of

hostages of the King of Scotland be released by

=== message truncated ===

Peter Stewart

Re: Maria de Padilla: of Jewish descent?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 jun 2007 06:37:39

"barbarapsmith" <barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.3080.1181345153.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I don't know what information this journal may contain, but it may be worth
looking into.


Notices of Periodicals
"English Historical Review."1897; XII: 191-200


"Documents in the nunnery of Santa Clara dc Astadillo [1345-1372,
illustrating the life of Dofia Maria de Padilla and her family]"

This notice in EHR 12 (1897), on p. 199, refers to an article in _Boletín de
la Real Academia de la Historia_ 29 (1896) 118-178 that can be accessed at

http://descargas.cervantesvirtual.com/s ... pdf?incr=1

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Joan Mowbray, wife of Sir Thomas Gray, of H

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 jun 2007 09:59:02

Apologies, yes, should read 1536.

Kind Regards,

Rose
Surrey / UK

taf

Re: Maria de Padilla: of Jewish descent?

Legg inn av taf » 12 jun 2007 11:50:15

On Jun 11, 10:37 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"barbarapsmith" <barbarapsm...@suddenlink.net> wrote in message

news:mailman.3080.1181345153.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

I don't know what information this journal may contain, but it may be worth
looking into.

Notices of Periodicals
"English Historical Review."1897; XII: 191-200

"Documents in the nunnery of Santa Clara dc Astadillo [1345-1372,
illustrating the life of Dofia Maria de Padilla and her family]"

This notice in EHR 12 (1897), on p. 199, refers to an article in _Boletín de
la Real Academia de la Historia_ 29 (1896) 118-178 that can be accessed at

http://descargas.cervantesvirtual.com/s ... 49743802...

The following can be reconstructed from these documents:

1. Garcia Gutierrez

2. Ferrand Gutierrez de Finestrosa (brother Goter Gonzalez de
Finestrosa) m. Estevania Gonzalez

3. Mari Gonzalez (sister of Sancha Gutierrez, Juana Fernandez [abbess
of Astudillo]], and Juan Fernandez de Finestrosa) m. Juan Garcia de
Padilla

4. Maria Diaz de Padilla (brothers Diego Garcia, Juan Garcia, Lope
Garcia)

There are Jewish individuals named, but with no indication of
relationship.

taf

John P. Ravilious

Re: Registrum Honoris de Morton

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 12 jun 2007 18:30:16

Dear Ken,

Thanks for your reply on your successful search Down Under. Will
have to check again to see if I can access the other volume (likely my
problem, not properly Googling).

Cheers,

John
(from Up Over)


On Jun 11, 3:33 am, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:
John,
I searched for all the words Registrum Honoris Morton on Google Books
and found both volumes downloadable even in Australia.

Best,
Ken

On 11/6/07 6:40, "gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com"



gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
From: "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:36:49 -0700
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Graham of Dalkeith: their Comyn ancestry

CC: of earlier message to Alex

Dear Alex,

Thanks for your rapid review, and replies. We are indeed
indebted to Prof. Barrow, a fact already known, and now nicely
reinforced. Also to Dr. Stringer, with whom I do not always agree,
but for whose efforts I'm always appreciative.

This does seem to resolve the descent of Kilbucho, etc. and
provides a good deal more structure to the many documents provided in
the Reg. Honoris de Morton. The bad news is, I've not seen the 1st
volume except in a passing opportunity at the LOC; the good news is,
Vol II (with the Latin charter text) is available online, either with
a query in GoogleBooks of "Registrum Honoris Morton", or at

http://books.google.com/books?id=gLAEAA ... trum+hon...
on&ie=ISO-8859-1#PPR8,M1

I have not seen the 1978 article by Prof. Barrow, although there
are myriad references to it on the WWW. When next I get a chance at
the LOC, I will see if this volume is available.

Again, my thanks for your views and reply.

Cheers,

John

On Jun 10, 12:51?am, Alex Maxwell Findlater
maxwellfindla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have sent this email to John and have now managed to upload the
chart, so that others may see it too.

Dear John

The attached will doubtless accord you some satisfaction and also a
small wonderment that yet again the indomitable Barrow has been here
already.

The article is in the 1978 Scottish Genealogis. He deals with four
families, MacWilliam, de Morville, Randolph and that of Master
Gamelin. This chart is, by the way, the only one.

I must confess that I was completely side-tracked by the FitzGilbert,
instead of "son of". I have always been wary of Fitz's, wondering
when they were anachronistic. Yet I happily accept the Fitz in the
FitzHerbert family and that of Warkworth. Perhaps it would be
possible to use fitz for filius/o and Fitz, when it has become
established as a surname. Meanwhile I shall probably continue to
wobble between "Fitz" and "son of" depending on context.

If I can post the chart somewhere on the web, I'll do that.

Good luck

Alex

The link is below:

http://heraldry-scotland.com/copgal/alb ... yville...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

barbarapsmith

RE: William & Mary Quarterley - OT

Legg inn av barbarapsmith » 12 jun 2007 19:03:57

Robert,

Many public libraries and college/university libraries subscribe to the
JSTOR database which includes the "William and Mary Quarterly." These are
usually available to the public on the library computers. If no one in this
group can supply this to you, you might check with some of your local
libraries.

Good luck!

Barbara


Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.
Project Chairman and Interviewer
Victoria County Historical Commission
Oral History Project







-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Robert O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:16 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: William & Mary Quarterley - OT

Sorry, I was too quick to push the send button - the reference of the
required letter is Vol 21, No. 3 (Jan 1913), pp 163-171


"Robert O'Connor" <roconnor@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:f4lk9h$3kb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
I wonder if any kind soul has access to the above American publication. In

particular I am interested in seeing details of the letter written by Capt
William Smith to Captain Morgan of the "Hornet sloop of war complaining of
extreme ill usage at Norfolk [Virginia]" dated 1766. My wife descends from

Smith's sister.

Many thanks
Robert O'Connor




-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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Gjest

Re: William & Mary Quarterley - OT

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 jun 2007 19:18:27

Hello,

I might add that I have a few things I wanted copied from the JSTOR site - from the _William and Mary Quarterly_ and even offered to pay whatever they wanted to get things copied. They said I had to do it through a University Library in their group.
Seems like they could have sent them to me, but I guess they are low on staff or I happ0ened to get the WRONG person.
Margaret Sypniewski





-----Original Message-----
From: barbarapsmith <barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net>
To: 'Robert O'Connor' <roconnor@es.co.nz>; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 2:03 pm
Subject: RE: William & Mary Quarterley - OT




Robert,

Many public libraries and college/university libraries subscribe to the
JSTOR database which includes the "William and Mary Quarterly." These are
usually available to the public on the library computers. If no one in this
group can supply this to you, you might check with some of your local
libraries.

Good luck!

Barbara


Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.
Project Chairman and Interviewer
Victoria County Historical Commission
Oral History Project


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

Dora Smith

Re: William & Mary Quarterley - OT

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 13 jun 2007 00:48:55

I've observed that most JSTOR articles are available for online purchase for
$10. My library's database subscriptions don't include JSTOR.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "barbarapsmith" <barbarapsmith@suddenlink.net>
To: "'Robert O'Connor'" <roconnor@es.co.nz>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: William & Mary Quarterley - OT


Robert,

Many public libraries and college/university libraries subscribe to the
JSTOR database which includes the "William and Mary Quarterly." These are
usually available to the public on the library computers. If no one in
this
group can supply this to you, you might check with some of your local
libraries.

Good luck!

Barbara


Barbara Parsons Smith, M.A.
Project Chairman and Interviewer
Victoria County Historical Commission
Oral History Project







-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Robert O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:16 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: William & Mary Quarterley - OT

Sorry, I was too quick to push the send button - the reference of the
required letter is Vol 21, No. 3 (Jan 1913), pp 163-171


"Robert O'Connor" <roconnor@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:f4lk9h$3kb$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
I wonder if any kind soul has access to the above American publication.
In

particular I am interested in seeing details of the letter written by Capt
William Smith to Captain Morgan of the "Hornet sloop of war complaining of
extreme ill usage at Norfolk [Virginia]" dated 1766. My wife descends
from

Smith's sister.

Many thanks
Robert O'Connor




-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message




--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.465 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11:56 AM

Gjest

Re: Isaac Luria

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 jun 2007 19:09:03

<<In a message dated 6/13/2007 5:45:36 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
krosenstiel@comcast.net writes:

I am assisting a friend who of Shepardic Jewish background. His mother,
Miriam Lurie, claims descent from Isaac ben Solomon Luria (1534-1572), a
famous Kabbalist rabbi, and some kind of kinship with Karl Marx. Royal
descent from the House of David is claimed for Luria. Any suggestions or
referrals?>>


You didn't say "suggestions of referrals" to do what exactly?
If you're trying to prove her ascent, then you need to do it the same way we
all do, step-by-painful-step, start from her. So that means you'll need to
post the *entire* ascent without leaving anything out or doing any
have-waving along the way :)

What you'll probably end up with, is a line stretching back a few hundred
years and then some hand-waving and large assumptions. Just my opinion.

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: Isaac Luria

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 jun 2007 19:19:04

<<In a message dated 6/13/2007 10:10:22 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

So that means you'll need to
post the *entire* ascent without leaving anything out or doing any
have-waving along the way :)>>



Correcting the above to "Hand"-waving of course.

Will



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Cavendish,(died 1557)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 jun 2007 20:26:56

<<In a message dated 06/13/07 03:27:27 Pacific Standard Time, jonathankirton@sympatico.ca writes:
I believe one of them was named Frances Cavendish, but it
seems that one of Sir
Williams' daughters with Bess was also named Frances, so there may
be some confusion ? >>


I can help you half-way. One of the daughters by Margaret Bostock I have listed as Anne Cavendish born Abt 1538 who married Henry Baynton of Chelsea, Middlesex. They had a child Ferdinando Boynton bap 28 May 1566 at Bronham, Wiltshire who married Joan Weare alias Browne

Ferdinando Boynton and Joan had at least or exactly six children: Anne, Elizabeth, Bamfield, Harry, Henry and Katherine. Thanks to John Brandon who posted details last year on this line.

Anne Baynton married Christopher Batt 12 oct 1629 St Edmund's Salisbury and they went to Boston, Mass.

Elizabeth Baynton married William Maddocke or Maddox 16 Nov 1626 St Edmund's, Salibury, Wiltshire

At this point my database ends, so I can't tell you if there are further descents or not.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Sir William Cavendish,(died 1557)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 13 jun 2007 21:34:48

I think I have most of what you gave----thanks to Gary Boyd Roberts.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: Sir William Cavendish,(died 1557)


In a message dated 06/13/07 03:27:27 Pacific Standard Time,
jonathankirton@sympatico.ca writes:
I believe one of them was named Frances Cavendish, but it
seems that one of Sir
Williams' daughters with Bess was also named Frances, so there may
be some confusion ?


I can help you half-way. One of the daughters by Margaret Bostock I have
listed as Anne Cavendish born Abt 1538 who married Henry Baynton of
Chelsea, Middlesex. They had a child Ferdinando Boynton bap 28 May 1566
at Bronham, Wiltshire who married Joan Weare alias Browne

Ferdinando Boynton and Joan had at least or exactly six children: Anne,
Elizabeth, Bamfield, Harry, Henry and Katherine. Thanks to John Brandon
who posted details last year on this line.

Anne Baynton married Christopher Batt 12 oct 1629 St Edmund's Salisbury
and they went to Boston, Mass.

Elizabeth Baynton married William Maddocke or Maddox 16 Nov 1626 St
Edmund's, Salibury, Wiltshire

At this point my database ends, so I can't tell you if there are further
descents or not.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Cavendish,(died 1557)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 jun 2007 22:28:30

Thanks Leo, evidently there are living descendents off this line as Wargs has one, Sam Waterston here

http://www.wargs.com/other/waterston.html

Note that Christopher Batt is number 1614 in this chart.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Sir William Cavendish,(died 1557)

Legg inn av WJhonson » 13 jun 2007 23:43:38

<<In a message dated 06/13/07 15:06:01 Pacific Standard Time, abevan@paradise.net.nz writes:
2.William Ist Earl of Devonshire 1551-1625, had issue
+ Anne Keighly d. 1598
+ Elizabeth Wortley >>


On these marriages stirnet states that Elizabeth was a Boughton, widow of a Wortley
See
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... 5.htm#dau1

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... 1.htm#dau1

See was also a Cave/Mallory descendent, but I don't have her Malory ancestry earlier than Nicholas Mallory + Catherine Kingston. If anyone does I'd appreciate knowing it.

Thanks
Will Johnson

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Luria

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 14 jun 2007 03:18:32

Obed
Jesse
David
Shephatiah
Daniel
Natan
Maacha
Jedija
Manasseh
Ephraim
Gilhon
Joash
Joshua
Natan
Jehoram
Ezram
Tola
Shimon
Ammon
Moche
Melchiah
Amminadab
Elnatan
Judah
Uriah
David
Shlomo
Ahitophel
Avimelech
Natan
Gideon
Avraham
Basha
Ephraim
Joash
Jehosaphat
Eliezer
David
Shlomo
Uzziah
Hezekiah
Hillel
Shimon Hanassi
Raban Gamliel
Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamliel
*
Rav Yohanan Hasandlar
Joshua Zimri
Yochanan
Nachman
Yosei
Yanai
Binyamin
Yosei
Avraham
Aharon Harofeh
Elyakum
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Shlomo
Yitzchak
Rashi
Miriam = Riban
Rabbeinu Yom Tov
Rabbeinu Yehuda MeParis
*
R Yochanan Ashkenazi
R Yosef Troish
R Mattisyahu Troish
bat = R Shmuel Spiro
R Shlomo Spiro
Miriam = R Shimson Luria
R Yechiel Luria
R Netanel Luria
R Aaron Lurie
R Yechiel Lurie, Brisk
Dresel = R Elasar Schrenzel
Malka = R Israel Isserles
R Moshe Isserles (Rama)
Dresel = R Simcha Bunem
bat = R Yitzchak Bunems
R Binyamin (Wolf) Wilner
Yenta = Shabtai Cohen (Shach)
Yocheved = R Aaron miGesza Zvi, Luntschitz
R Moshe miGesza Zvi, Glogau
R Aaron miGesza Zvi, Berlin
R Eliezer (Lazarus), Mainberheim
R Moshe Trier
Kelche Lazarus = R Naftali Berlinger
R Yaakov
Menachem (Eli)
Yehuda

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Isaac Luria

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 14 jun 2007 07:09:14

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, at 07:43:10
"Karen Rosenstiel" <krosenstiel @ comcast . net> wrote in message
news:5-idnUSffK_De_LbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com

Dear Folks,
I am assisting a friend who of Shepardic Jewish background. His mother,
Miriam Lurie, claims descent from Isaac ben Solomon Luria (1534-1572), a
famous Kabbalist rabbi, and some kind of kinship with Karl Marx. Royal
descent from the House of David is claimed for Luria.

Any suggestions or referrals?

I am new to Jewish genealogy, however I have been researching
French-Canadian genealogy for ~30 years and am familiar with standards of
proof and historical research. No descent from Adam and Eve here! I can read
French and Latin and my friend can probably manage Spanish. I use The Master
Genealogist, among other tools, if anyone has a database they would be
willing to share.

TIA

Karen Rosenstiel
(Searching Quebec Richard and Acadian LeBlanc)
Seattle WA USA


The Lurias were a medieval rabbinic dynasty. Rottenberg, Dan, _Finding Our
Fathers: A guidebook to Jewish genealogy_, Genealogical Publishing Co.,
Inc., (Baltimore, 1998), 0-8063-1151-7, has a series of charts showing the
inter-related Sephardic and Ashkenazi rabbinic dynasties from RaShI to the
grt.-gr.-parents of Karl Marx. Rosenstein, Neil, _The Unbroken Chain_, C.
I. S. Communications, Inc, (United States, 1990), 0-9610578-4-8, shows the
descendants of the a rabbi from the Luria-Katzenellenbogen-Treves nexus, (I
forget, now, exactly which one), to Karl Marx, the Countess Mountbatten of
Burma, some Rothschilds and many Chasidic rabbinic dynasties, as well as,
IIRC, the Maharal of Prague. Many of these rabbinic dynasties can be found
in the _Encyclopaedia Judaica_ and _The Jewish Encyclopedia_.
Rashi claimed descent from R. Yonatan haSandalar, (Rabbi Jonathan the
Sandlemaker), one of the Tannaim, (Rabbinic scholars whose teachings were
central to the compilation of the Talmud), who was a member of the
Patriarchal dynasty of Yehudah haNasi, founded by Hillel the Great, who
claimed descent from David. The Lurias, Shaltiels, Charlaps, Iacchias, ibn
Dauds, the Maharal of Prague and others claimed descent from David, all
through the last Exilarchs, (Reshim Galuta/Roshim haGolah), of Babylon.

Gjest

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 611

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 jun 2007 08:11:02

Douglas Richardson writes:

<The term "in crastino Beatorum Petri &
<Pauli Apostolorum" refers to the "commemoratio" of this saints' day
<which celebrated each year on 30 June, in the week following the
<actual saints' day which is 21 June.
Error here, for once, Douglas. The saints' day is and has always been 29th
June. 30th June is the next day- the "morrow"
MM

Ford Mommaerts-Browne

Re: Isaac Luria

Legg inn av Ford Mommaerts-Browne » 14 jun 2007 08:30:41

"Karen Rosenstiel" <krosenstiel@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<5-idnUSffK_De_LbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com>...
Dear Folks,
I am assisting a friend who of Shepardic Jewish background. His
mother,
Miriam Lurie, claims descent from Isaac ben Solomon Luria (1534-1572), a
famous Kabbalist rabbi, and some kind of kinship with Karl Marx. Royal
descent from the House of David is claimed for Luria.

Any suggestions or referrals?

I am new to Jewish genealogy, however I have been researching
French-Canadian genealogy for ~30 years and am familiar with standards of
proof and historical research. No descent from Adam and Eve here! I can
read
French and Latin and my friend can probably manage Spanish. I use The
Master
Genealogist, among other tools, if anyone has a database they would be
willing to share.

TIA

Karen Rosenstiel
(Searching Quebec Richard and Acadian LeBlanc)
Seattle WA USA


Rottenberg, Dan, Finding Our Fathers: A guidebook to Jewish genealogy,
Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., (Baltimore, 1998), 0-8063-1151-7 Has much
reference material listed, and charts from Rashi down, through the Lurias,
to the grt.-gr.-parents of Karl Marx.

Rosenstein, Neil, The Unbroken Chain, C. I. S. Communications, Inc, (United
States, 1990), 0-9610578-4-8 has MANY other connections, including the
intervening links to Karl Marx, as well as the Countess Mountbatten of Burma
and some Rothschilds.

The Lurias were a medieval rabbinical dynasty, related to many other
rabbinic dynasties, some of which are outlined in Rottenberg's charts.
IIRC, the Maharal of Prague is in this group, as are many of the later
Chasidic dynasties, which are in Rosenstein. Many more can be found in the
Encyclopaedia Judaica, and in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Ford Mommaerts-Browne


--
'Mistrust any enterprise that involves buying new clothes'
--- Thoreau

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