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WJhonson

Re: Descents From Edward III For Ramsden Appleyard

Legg inn av WJhonson » 09 mai 2007 19:02:51

You certainly have a number from which to choose.
The parish register of Saint John's Church, Beverley, Yorkshire is extracted here
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch C106622

Matthew 1721
Anne 1722
Jane 1723
Frances 1724
William 1725
Margaret 1728
Thomas 1730
Ramsden 1736

The next baptism for an Appleyard there is a Samuel son of Samuel in 1767

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Descents From Edward III For Ramsden Appleyard

Legg inn av WJhonson » 09 mai 2007 19:16:38

That Jane Ramsden survived her husband.
Will Johnson
-------------------------

East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: EAST RIDING DOCUMENTS


The contents of this catalogue are the copyright of East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service
Rights in the Access to Archives database are the property of the Crown, © 2001-2006

To find out more about the archives described below, contact East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service

EAST RIDING DOCUMENTS
Catalogue Ref. zDDX76
Former Catalogue Ref. DDX76


Deeds for Beverley and other documents



FILE - Settlement relating to land in York - ref. zDDX76/2/4 - date: 11 Jun 1700
[from Scope and Content] Parties: 1) Jane Appleyard widow of Matthew Appleyard of Burstickgarth esquire 2) Charles Pelham of Brocklesby of Lincolnshire, esquire Property: in County of York settled on her by Matthew Appleyard; Jane Appleyard to have estate of £100 clear yearly value for her life; the residue to the use of her sons by Matthew Appleyard, successively in tail male (mentions her sons Matthew, Francis and Thomas Appleyard) Witnesses: Elizabeth Pelham, John Stringer and Richard Butler

Ernst Hoffmann

Fwd: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Ernst Hoffmann » 09 mai 2007 20:25:39

And there was this scholar, who wrote a book about "good queen
Elisabeth of England" and dedicated it to Queen Victoria....

She was later heard to say: But I descent from Mary of Scots.....

nugh said

Ernst

Am 09.05.2007 um 20:56 schrieb Paul C:

On Wed, 09 May 2007 18:42:09 +0100, Andrew Swallow
am.swallow@btopenworld.com> wrote:

Paul C wrote:
On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:41:32 +0100, Andrew Swallow
am.swallow@btopenworld.com> wrote:

Paul C wrote:
[snip]

Erm, are you suggesting the first couple of dozen on the list
*were*
Kings of Britain?
When you get this technical watch out for the difference in
definitions
between "Britain" and "Great Briton". Scotland is part of
"Great Briton".

There's nothing technical about pointing out the nonsense of
listing
Kings/Queens of England as British monarchs, yet ignoring Scottish
monarchs.

Whoever drew up the list is just plain wrong.

Technical point - define British/Britain.

It doesn't matter whether we are discussing (Great) Britain or the
United Kingdom.

Pre-Union, listing English monarchs and calling them British is a
nonsense. They are no more 'British' than the Scottish monarchs who
were ignored.

Looks like whoever made all this up is one of those people who
doesn't
understand the distinction between 'English' and 'British'.

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WJhonson

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av WJhonson » 09 mai 2007 23:04:20

How certain are you of this claim?
Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/09/07 13:40:42 Pacific Standard Time, allan@noemail.co.uk writes:
The first to do so was James VI of Scotland who styled
himself King of Great Britain.

WJhonson

Re: Descents From Edward III For Ramsden Appleyard

Legg inn av WJhonson » 09 mai 2007 23:11:14

By the way just to get specific, Ramsden was bap on 13 Mar 1737/8
So it would be more appropriate to say "in his 27th year" instead of "age 27" as today we'd think a person was "27" only once they'd reached their 27th birthday, whereas "in his 27th year" started on your 26th birthday.

By the way Jane names her sons, Matthew, Francis, Thomas, I'd say Matthew is the eldest and in 1714 he is a witness to an Exemplification of a common recovery relating to land in Burstwick

Will Johnson
-----------------------
East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: EAST RIDING DOCUMENTS
EAST RIDING DOCUMENTS
Catalogue Ref. zDDX76
Former Catalogue Ref. DDX76
Deeds for Beverley and other documents

FILE - Exemplification of a common recovery relating to land in Burstwick, Skeckling, Elsternwick, Aldbrough and Hedon - ref. zDDX76/2/1 - date: 10 May 1714
[from Scope and Content] Parties: 1) Francis Boxholme gentleman 2) Christopher Goulton gentleman Property: 2 messuages, 50 acres land, 150 acres meadow, and 150 acres pasture in Burstwick, Skeckling, Elsternwick, Alkbrough [Aldbrough], and Hedon; with tithes of grain and hay in Elsternwick Witnesses: Matthew Appleyard esquire, and John Stanford vouched to warranty (Easter 1714)

WJhonson

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av WJhonson » 10 mai 2007 00:18:33

I think Wikipedia rightly states that Anne was the first Monarch to use the title "Great Britian", the previous ones used seperately England, Ireland, Scotland, etc.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 mai 2007 00:24:02

Dear Will,
I think He may well have sd, Though certainly James by the
Grace of God, King of England, Wales, Scotland and his dominions across the sea,
Lord of Ireland, Defender of the Faith. wE are talking about the fellow who
promulgated the dogma of the Divine Right of Kings and commenced the first anti
Tobacco campaign. Jacobus Rex Britainnica Magna certainly wanted to be
remembered and probably had a hand in translating from Greek and Latin into English
and simutaneously editing The King James edition of The Holy Bible.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Renia

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Renia » 10 mai 2007 01:02:54

WJhonson wrote:

I think Wikipedia rightly states that Anne was the first Monarch to use the title "Great Britian", the previous ones used seperately England, Ireland, Scotland, etc.

James I and his sons Charles I and James II were all styled "King of
Great Britain and Ireland" as was Queen Anne. William and Mary were
styled "King/Queen of England, Scotland and Ireland".

WJhonson

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av WJhonson » 10 mai 2007 01:06:25

I believe this is false.



In a message dated 05/09/07 17:05:35 Pacific Standard Time, renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
James I and his sons Charles I and James II were all styled "King of
Great Britain and Ireland" as was Queen Anne. William and Mary were
styled "King/Queen of England, Scotland and Ireland".

Renia

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Renia » 10 mai 2007 01:21:54

WJhonson wrote:

I believe this is false.

Oh, yes? Why is that?

In a message dated 05/09/07 17:05:35 Pacific Standard Time, renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:
James I and his sons Charles I and James II were all styled "King of
Great Britain and Ireland" as was Queen Anne. William and Mary were
styled "King/Queen of England, Scotland and Ireland".

WJhonson

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av WJhonson » 10 mai 2007 01:27:34

It's my belief, just as it's your belief that you're right.

Fortunately our beliefs don't make things fact.

However you could cite an actual document in which James I calls himself King of Great Britain anytime you'd like to prove your point. I think you might find however, that he calls himself King of England and Scotland or something to that effect.

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av WJhonson » 10 mai 2007 01:31:40

For example you might cite this

East Kent Archives Centre: New Romney Borough [NR/J - NR/Z]


The contents of this catalogue are the copyright of East Kent Archives Centre
Rights in the Access to Archives database are the property of the Crown, © 2001-2006

To find out more about the archives described below, contact East Kent Archives Centre

NEW ROMNEY BOROUGH
Catalogue Ref. NR
Creator(s):
New Romney Borough


MISCELLANEOUS

Printed Proclamations - ref. NR/ZPr

JAMES I

FILE - Assuming to the King the title of 'King of Great Britain' following the Act of Union [Steele 1003] 3 ff. R. Barker - ref. NR/ZPr/74 - date: 20 Oct. 1604

Gjest

Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 mai 2007 06:54:02

In a message dated 5/9/2007 9:20:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lostcooper@yahoo.com writes:

She is remembered via oral history as
having been a confused and troubled young woman.
I find it difficult to swallow the idea that Native women of the
Powhatan Confederacy would have worked as maids for English


But not that they would stoop to being prostitutes.
Very interesting.



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 10 mai 2007 11:39:21

Dear Piere,
I'm sorry for the mistake. I corrected it quoting you in that message.

I'm aware about the suspicions concernig the Rogerio Paleolog's
document. Since many years I'd like to find the original to have the
possibility to examine it, whit the support of same experts, of course,
because I'm really curious abouit the alleged paleologo italian line.

I'm very interested about any more things and opinions coming from you,
about the argument I posted in our Forum.
If you like, you could answer me here or directly in our forum.

Regards
Marco


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of
pierre_aronax@hotmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:45 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


I will not go into the discussion about your titles of nobility, about
which I have no opinion. However, reading this discussion I have had the
curiosity to look at your website and its forum and, speaking of good
manners, I would like to see my name mentioned when you quote me: a
bibliographical reference I gave here is reproduced with my comments
verbatim and attributed to an anonymous "amico del Forum gen- Medieval"
(I was not aware we were friends, and, as far as I can remember, that
message you quoted was not answering one of yours).

http://genmarenostrum.forumup.it/about2 ... strum.html

For what is of the topic you addressed there, many things could be said,
but for the beginning I think you should not give any credit to
documents like the purported "diploma di Ferdinando d'Aragona Re di
Napoli del 6 ottobre 1463 nel quale il Sovrano concede a Rogerio
Paleologo citato come devoto e illustre figlio di Tommaso Despota di
Morea le rendite di alcuni terreni" : Thômas Palaiologos had no son
called Roger and no Byzantine prince is likely to have given such name
to one of his children. Would it not contain such impossibility, the
document would be suspect anyway, being published in a book of Charles
A. Gauci, of dubious scientific reputation. This is obviously fake
Byzantine genealogy again.

Pierre


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Gjest

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 mai 2007 14:19:03

Is brother poetic licence for uncle?


In a message dated 06/05/2007 21:06:00 GMT Standard Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

Edward V was slain by his brother

WJhonson

Re: C.P. Addition: Alice Beauchamp, wife of Thomas le Botele

Legg inn av WJhonson » 10 mai 2007 22:06:36

The author(s) of CP obviously was trying to set himself up for all future time, selling "corrections" to his own work. Very devious!!
Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/10/07 11:56:04 Pacific Standard Time, mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
Suppression requires a motive. What do you suppose that motive to
have been in CP's case?

WJhonson

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av WJhonson » 10 mai 2007 22:36:09

<<In a message dated 05/10/07 14:30:42 Pacific Standard Time, allan@noemail.co.uk writes:
He was Dutch but both he and his wife were descended from the Stuart kings
of Scotland. William was a grand-son of Charles I and Mary was the daughter
of James VII of Scotland.>>


When you say "he was Dutch" I assume you mean where he was born. His mother Mary was born in London, the daughter of Charles I, King of England by Henriette Marie Bourbon who was born in Paris daughter of Henry IV, King of France.

His great-great-grandmother was the Archduchess of Austria, her husband the Grand Duke of Tuscany, another was the Queen of Navarre. A great-great-grandfather was the King of Norway and Denmark and of couse another was that Lord Darnley who caused so much trouble for Mary Queen of Scots.

So William, by birthplace was perhaps Dutch, but by ancestry he was a real mutt.

Will Johnson

Dora Smith

Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 10 mai 2007 22:44:29

What oral history remembers her as a confused adn troubled young woman?
And where were you encountering the original oral history tellers? And how
are you equating her status to that of a maid? !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"


In a message dated 5/9/2007 9:20:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lostcooper@yahoo.com writes:

She is remembered via oral history as
having been a confused and troubled young woman.
I find it difficult to swallow the idea that Native women of the
Powhatan Confederacy would have worked as maids for English


But not that they would stoop to being prostitutes.
Very interesting.




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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.465 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11:56 AM

WJhonson

Re: Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica

Legg inn av WJhonson » 10 mai 2007 23:15:48

Thanks Brad for pointing that out. I was able to find Vol 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, and 8 which I've added to my Sources page here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... es#England

Haven't found 4 yet.

Will

WJhonson

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av WJhonson » 10 mai 2007 23:25:04

<<In a message dated 05/10/07 15:18:43 Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870 writes:
William the Silent, Stadholder of the Netherlands who was
an elected ruler who drove out the Spanish. I believe his ancestry was mainly
German (House of Nassau). >>


William the Silent's eight great-grandparents were Nassau-Dillenburg, Heinsberg, Hessen, Katzenelnbogen, Stolberg, Mansfeld, Eppstein-Konigstein and van der Marck

So it looks like he was a pretty thorough German (HRE) type.

Will

Gjest

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mai 2007 00:19:02

Dear Will,
Most British (English, Scots, Welsh and Irish) Monarchs have
tended to be mutts, And You probably overlooked one of William of Orange`s
most famous forebears William the Silent, Stadholder of the Netherlands who was
an elected ruler who drove out the Spanish. I believe his ancestry was mainly
German (House of Nassau).
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



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Gjest

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mai 2007 01:29:02

Dear Micheil,
As You rightly point out a Bretwalda was a Engish
(Saxon) High King, The Picts, Scots, Irish and Welsh also used roughly the same form
of governance by which to greater or lesser degree the lesser Kings
(forerunners of nobles) obeyed , protected and gave counsel to the High King (when
They weren`t in open rebellion and trying to gain his place for themselves). They
had what amounted to a Constitutional Monarchy sans Constitution. As to
Scotland`s conquest by England, King Edward I took his armies there a number of
times between 1286 and 1306. Had the Comyn family ever decided to fight and risk
the ruin of their strong castles rather than negociate peaces largely
favorable to them and their allies, King Edward may have found a great degree of
difficulty in enforcing his will within the realm of Scotland. Then too, there was
that Ancient tradition (back to at least the reign of King Edward the Elder)
that the Scots monarchs submit to at least a verbal "overlordship" by the King
of England. Plus Edward I was of Scots Royal Blood. Edward II attempted to
invade Scotland and was nearly taken prisoner by the Scots during his campaign.
Edward III did in fact manage to conquer Scotland in 1332-1333 taking Robert
I`s son David II as a hostage (He was only a child) and replacing him with
John`s son Edward Baliol who was deposed and David II , though a prisoner /guest
at Edward III`s court reproclaimed King. Oliver Cromwell staged a holocaust of
Catholics and other persons loyal to King Charles II in Ireland. James II also
had allies including the Catholic Duke of Gordon and a fight was inevitable,
The Campbells, Douglases and Hamiltons adhered to William III, but the real
bloody Conquest took place following the Battle of Cullendon in 1745-1746 when
George II of Great Britain son the Duke of Cumberland known far and wide as
Butcher Cumberland systematically descimated anyone who wore the garb of any of
the clans, spoke gaelic or did anything that a Scot would do and a Englishman
not. He murdered many people had many more sent as tranportees to America and
Canada.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 11 mai 2007 02:49:02

Dear James

Thankyou for your very concise explanation. Much appreciated. I could never
get my head around it at school, - we should have had you as a teacher! (of
course you would have needed to be in your prime 50 years ago).

Merilyn



-------Original Message-------



From: Jwc1870@aol.com

Date: 05/11/07 08:56:31

To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com

Cc: Jwc1870@AOL..com

Subject: Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )



Dear Micheil,

As You rightly point out a Bretwalda was a Engish

(Saxon) High King, The Picts, Scots, Irish and Welsh also used roughly the
same form

of governance by which to greater or lesser degree the lesser Kings

(forerunners of nobles) obeyed , protected and gave counsel to the High King
(when

They weren`t in open rebellion and trying to gain his place for themselves).
They

had what amounted to a Constitutional Monarchy sans Constitution. As to

Scotland`s conquest by England, King Edward I took his armies there a number
of

times between 1286 and 1306. Had the Comyn family ever decided to fight and
risk

the ruin of their strong castles rather than negociate peaces largely

favorable to them and their allies, King Edward may have found a great
degree of

difficulty in enforcing his will within the realm of Scotland. Then too,
there was

that Ancient tradition (back to at least the reign of King Edward the Elder)

that the Scots monarchs submit to at least a verbal "overlordship" by the
King

of England. Plus Edward I was of Scots Royal Blood. Edward II attempted to

invade Scotland and was nearly taken prisoner by the Scots during his
campaign.

Edward III did in fact manage to conquer Scotland in 1332-1333 taking Robert

I`s son David II as a hostage (He was only a child) and replacing him with

John`s son Edward Baliol who was deposed and David II , though a prisoner
/guest

at Edward III`s court reproclaimed King. Oliver Cromwell staged a holocaust
of

Catholics and other persons loyal to King Charles II in Ireland. James II
also

had allies including the Catholic Duke of Gordon and a fight was inevitable,

The Campbells, Douglases and Hamiltons adhered to William III, but the real

bloody Conquest took place following the Battle of Cullendon in 1745-1746
when

George II of Great Britain son the Duke of Cumberland known far and wide as

Butcher Cumberland systematically descimated anyone who wore the garb of any
of

the clans, spoke gaelic or did anything that a Scot would do and a
Englishman

not. He murdered many people had many more sent as tranportees to America
and

Canada.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA







************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com




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WJhonson

Re: Thomas Bradley 1633 of VA, son of Thomas Bradley DD, de

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 mai 2007 05:02:31

<<In a message dated 05/10/07 16:35:34 Pacific Standard Time, don.stone@verizon.net writes:
Sorry, you're not even on the list of possible successors, due to the
Act of Settlement 1701 (unless you're a Protestant descendant of
Electress Sophia of Hanover). >>


See! They stole the county then they rewrote the rules!
Nice trick, those Germans pulled.
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mai 2007 05:56:21

On May 10, 2:44 pm, "Dora Smith" <villan...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
What oral history remembers her as a confused adn troubled young woman?
And where were you encountering the original oral history tellers? And how
are you equating her status to that of a maid? !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernu...@yahoo.com





----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhon...@aol.com
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"

In a message dated 5/9/2007 9:20:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lostcoo...@yahoo.com writes:

She is remembered via oral history as
having been a confused and troubled young woman.
I find it difficult to swallow the idea that Native women of the
Powhatan Confederacy would have worked as maids for English

But not that they would stoop to being prostitutes.
Very interesting.

--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.465 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11:56 AM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The account of Kateri Tekakwitha that I gave came from such Mohawk
elders as Ray Fadden, Maurice Kenny, and others at Akwesasne, as well
as Peter Blue Cloud when he was visiting my area. I was participating
in the oral history process, in this instance, by hearing it "from the
horse's mouth". It was first-hand evidence. You may not agree with it,
but I heard it from these people and at least know for a fact that the
story is told that way by some traditional Mohawks. As Catholicism is
still prevalent among members of the Mohawk Nation on both sides of
the US/Canadian border, I would also assume that many Mohawks would
disagree with the account I received from those elders. I did not
suggest that Tekakwitha was a maid. When another poster suggested that
women of the Powhatan Confederacy might have been maids at Jamestown,
I argued against that interpretation of recent archaeological evidence
showing that Native women were residents there during its first years
(instead of mere visitors). Bronwen

Gjest

Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mai 2007 06:14:26

On May 9, 9:52 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/9/2007 9:20:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

lostcoo...@yahoo.com writes:

She is remembered via oral history as
having been a confused and troubled young woman.
I find it difficult to swallow the idea that Native women of the
Powhatan Confederacy would have worked as maids for English

But not that they would stoop to being prostitutes.
Very interesting.

Would you say that is the difference between wholesale and retail?
I did not mean to suggest that women of the Powhatan Confederacy were
anything other than normal human beings. They were individuals of all
sorts who conducted their affairs for all sorts of reasons. Given the
context of Jamestown and the historical period, it is difficult to
imagine that the women would have been "hired" for any reason. If the
Jamestown colonists were going to hire Native women to do their
housework, why not hire the men to hunt and fish? Why not hire both
sexes to raise crops, both cash crops and food (since one reason for
the starvation there was the insistence on planting non-edible cash
crops rather than food)? As evidence for such widespread employment of
Native people does not seem to have surfaced, the point is again made
that the women were probably co-habiting with or married to the men
and were possibly ostracized for doing so by their own people. I am
interested to see what more comes of the archaeological project which,
by the way, modern descendants of the Powhatan Confederacy are working
on.
Bronwen

************************************** See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.

WJhonson

Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 mai 2007 07:45:33

<<In a message dated 05/10/07 22:15:45 Pacific Standard Time, lostcooper@yahoo.com writes:
As evidence for such widespread employment of
Native people does not seem to have surfaced, the point is again made
that the women were probably co-habiting with or married to the men
and were possibly ostracized for doing so by their own people. >>


Because evidence for cohabitation/marriage has not surfaced either. The only evidence you have is that Indian women appear in the archaeological record. That's it.

Why they are there is speculation. You want them to be mistresses. But a keen desire to achieve a goal doesn't make it any more likely to be true.

Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: Some additional ancestry for Snoop Dogg, also known as C

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 mai 2007 16:04:20

the implication of a "m.[arriage]" between Verhell and Snoop's
marriage.

Erm, should be "Snoop's mother."

It seems I've become a terrible proofreader of my own writing
recently.

Antoine Andrra

RE: News on www.genmarenostrum.com website

Legg inn av Antoine Andrra » 11 mai 2007 19:19:03

It' a very good work!

Did you also goot informations about a line of Correale - Curiale in the
Cilento region, if I'm not wrong, in the vilage of Sanseverino?

Thanks

Antoine Andrra

-----Original Message-----
From: MLS [mailto:mlupis@genmarenostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 6:57 PM
To: 'gen-medieval@rootsweb.com'
Subject: News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website



For anyone could be interested, we just published on our website
http://www.genmarenostrum.com "Genealogie delle Famiglie Nobili del
Mediterraneo",
the genealogies of the historical CORREALE family from Sorrento, at
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-le ... /indice%20
correale.htm

Linee dei:
Correale: Patrizi di Sorrento - Linea antica
Correale: Patrizi di Sorrento, Correale Medici e Correale Santacroce
Correale: Patrizi di Sorrento, altra linea

Any correction and/or suggestion will be welcome




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bob&carole

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av bob&carole » 11 mai 2007 20:51:04

Apparently, Rep. Mark Foley is homosexual Pedophile. And like many
homosexual men, he likes young teen boys. We should pray for him that
he gets a handle on this problem and refrains from harming any more
kids .


Meanwhile, we need to wake up. The fact that this is typical behavior
for homosexuals doesn't stop us from continuing to elevate such folks
to positions where they gain access to our children.


http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=52244

MLS

RE: News on www.genmarenostrum.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 11 mai 2007 21:04:30

Yes Antoine, in a quite rare book by Marullo di Condojanni, "Onofrio
Correale etc." there is a table whit the genealogy of a Correale-Curiale
branch from Sanseverino village, in the Cilento region, but this
genealogy is quite uncomplete. For this reason, we decide not to publish
it yet, hoping can find some more informations about it in the next
future
Regards
Msrco

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Antoine Andrra
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 8:19 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website


It' a very good work!

Did you also goot informations about a line of Correale - Curiale in the
Cilento region, if I'm not wrong, in the vilage of Sanseverino?

Thanks

Antoine Andrra

-----Original Message-----
From: MLS [mailto:mlupis@genmarenostrum.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 6:57 PM
To: 'gen-medieval@rootsweb.com'
Subject: News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website



For anyone could be interested, we just published on our website
http://www.genmarenostrum.com "Genealogie delle Famiglie Nobili del
Mediterraneo",
the genealogies of the historical CORREALE family from Sorrento, at
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-le ... /indice%20
correale.htm

Linee dei:
Correale: Patrizi di Sorrento - Linea antica
Correale: Patrizi di Sorrento, Correale Medici e Correale Santacroce
Correale: Patrizi di Sorrento, altra linea

Any correction and/or suggestion will be welcome




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Tony Hoskins

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 11 mai 2007 21:35:46

I'm stretching to see the connection of this email to medieval genealogy. Assistance, anyone?

T.

bob&carole <bobandcarole555@hotmail.com> 05/11/07 12:51PM
Apparently, Rep. Mark Foley is homosexual Pedophile. And like many

homosexual men, he likes young teen boys. We should pray for him that
he gets a handle on this problem and refrains from harming any more
kids .


Meanwhile, we need to wake up. The fact that this is typical behavior
for homosexuals doesn't stop us from continuing to elevate such folks
to positions where they gain access to our children.


http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=52244


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: C.P.Addition: Bluet marriage of Isabel de Beaumont, wido

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mai 2007 21:51:03

Oh, I see what you mean, he was a son by a former wife of __ Bluet?

Adrian

In a message dated 11/05/2007 20:25:21 GMT Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING02@aol.com writes:

Are you suggesting that William Bluet was a grantor of land at a date
before
1168 and that he was born after 1148, i.e. made a grant of land whilst
under
aged, or have I misinterpreted you post.

(BTW, in my 1990 edition of David Crouch's book, the suggestion is on page
139 not 149)

Adrian

Gjest

Re: C.P.Addition: Bluet marriage of Isabel de Beaumont, wido

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mai 2007 21:52:02

Are you suggesting that William Bluet was a grantor of land at a date before
1168 and that he was born after 1148, i.e. made a grant of land whilst under
aged, or have I misinterpreted you post.

(BTW, in my 1990 edition of David Crouch's book, the suggestion is on page
139 not 149)

Adrian


In a message dated 11/05/2007 18:01:09 GMT Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Dear Newsgroup ~

Karen Repko recently posted an interesting record dated in the reign
of King Henry II, in which a certain William Bluet is styled brother
of Earl Richard ["frater comitis Ricardi"]. An abstract of this
record can be found in the National Archives catalogue as shown below:

National Archives Catalogue
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp

E 327/298:

Grantor: William Bloet, brother of Earl Richard; Grantee: Warin de
Baseville; Place or Subject: Grant of land in Heacham and La Wike;
County: [Norfolk]
Covering dates [Henry II]. END OF QUOTE.

Based on this record, David Crouch has suggested in his book, William
Marshal, Knighthood, War and Chivalry, 1147-1219, page 149 that
William Bluet was married to a sister of Richard de Clare (nicknamed
Strongbow), 2nd Earl of Pembroke. However, my study of medieval
kinships indicates that the two men would be half-brothers to each
other, not brothers-in-law. If so, this would indicate that Earl
Richard de Clare's mother, Isabel de Beaumont, married (2nd) some time
after 6 Jan. 1147/8 (death of her known husband) to _____ Bluet.
According to Karen's private e-mail to me today, Isabel de Beaumont is
stated to still be living as late as 1172. As such, there is ample
time for Isabel to have been left a young widow in 1148, and remarried
to a Bluet 2nd husband.
..
Elsewhere I fnd that there is an ancient list of obits (deaths)
recorded in Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, which religious house was
founded in 1131 by Walter Fitz Richard, a member of the Clare family.
This list is printed in William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 5
(1825): 266, which can be found at the following weblink:

http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/MatrixBoo ... Monasticon%2
0(Vol.%205%20Part%20041%20Tintern).pdf

The list of obits is for the founders ["fundatorum"] of the Abbey
[that is, the Clare family], and their near kinsfolk ["genere
propinquo eorum"]. Included among the people on this list is Walter
Fitz Richard, founder of the Abbey, and many of his other well known
Clare relations. Curiously, this list includes an obit for Ralph
Bluet the younger, whose obit was commemorated on the 13th of July,
presumably the date of his death:

"Radulfus Bloeth junior obiit xiij die Julii.".

While the inclusion of Ralph Bluet's obit in this list of Clare
kinsfolk is not concrete proof of an intermarriage between Isabel de
Beaumont and the Bluet family, this is certainly good supporting
evidence that the Bluet and Clare families were near related to one
another. At the present time, I'm uncertain as to the identity of
Ralph Bluet the younger. However, it is possible that he was the
second husband of Isabel de Beaumont, which would readily explain his
inclusion in the list of obits. If so, then he would necessarily be
the father of William Bluet, who was styled brother of Earl Richard de
Clare in the record first cited above.

I believe that Karen Repko has a copy of the original document in
which William Bluet is styled brother of Earl Richard. If so, perhaps
Karen would be willing to make a scanned copy of this document
available, so that someone to provide a full transcript in English.

Special thanks go to Karen for sharing her research findings with the
newsgroup. This matter deserves further study.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF KAREN REPKO'S EARLIER POST

Subject: E 327/298 William Bloet, brother of Earl Richard(Strongbow)
Date: 17 Mar 2007 12:28:39 -0700

I have previously posted a few questions about the Bloet family and
their medieval connections per Dr. Crouch's book.

I recently posted an email reply which Dr. Crouch had been kind enough
to send me reply to questions I had directed to him on. One question
was his mention of a marriage between William Bloet and a daughter of
Gilbert de Clare(Strongbow) in his book "William Marshal, Knighthood,
War and Chivalry, 1147-1219" pg 149. In answer to my request for
information on this marriage, Dr. Crouch directed me to the E327/298
reference in the National Archives. I did a quick lookup and it does
say " Grantor:William Bloet'frater comitis Ricardi', brother of Earl
Richard; Grantee: Warin de Baseville...subject: Grant of land in
Heacham and La Wike; county Norfolk...dated before 1168.

Is this a 3rd marriage for Basilea, or is the kinship mentioned
through a possible illigetimate daughter, or even more far fetched...a
3rd marriage for Gilberts' widow Isabel, and therefore a half brother
of Earl Richard?

Could someone with more knowledge give a helping hand here?

Thanks...Cheers,
Karen Repko

WJhonson

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av WJhonson » 11 mai 2007 21:59:52

It's always the ones who protest too much that are suspicious.
I let you decide what I mean.
Will Johnson



<<In a message dated 05/11/07 12:56:13 Pacific Standard Time, bobandcarole555@hotmail.com writes:
Meanwhile, we need to wake up. The fact that this is typical behavior
for homosexuals doesn't stop us from continuing to elevate such folks
to positions where they gain access to our children.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=52244 >>

pj.evans

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av pj.evans » 11 mai 2007 22:08:52

It's old news. Not even correct information, since they're confusing
homeosexuality with pedophilia. And not much connection to medieval
genealogy, unless you go in for some of the wilder stories.

On May 11, 12:51 pm, bob&carole <bobandcarole...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Apparently, Rep. Mark Foley [snipped - OT]

wjhonson

Re: Fraudulent genealogy

Legg inn av wjhonson » 11 mai 2007 22:11:36

Also make sure that at least *some* of the vital connecting links are
extremely obscure.

Saluzzo

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Saluzzo » 11 mai 2007 22:19:13

Did someone on this list can succeed to get a password on this site?
Because I personally tried from Italy, without any answer and also some
Italian people I know tried too, getting the same no-result. No
password, no access.

I'm afraid all this "password-circus" seems very much a fake. Probably
the owner has really been sued and forced not to maintain public the
site and is trying to "hide" this fact under the alleged "password
restriction"..

Can someone got different news about it. Can someone succeed in his
subscription?



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry
to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any of the
applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have technical
problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as soon as
possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
<oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






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wjhonson

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av wjhonson » 11 mai 2007 22:21:32

Let me hijack this thread, since just *yesterday* (shades of
Serendipity), I was reading here

http://books.google.com/books?id=1kMjAA ... n#PPP21,M1

a discussion of the Memoirs of the Earl of Castlehaven.

Mervyn Touchet, 2nd Earl of Castlehaven was on 14 May 1631
Beheaded for sodomy and other crimes at Tower Hill, London

One of those "other crimes" was evidently stated to be prostituting
his daughter Lucy in the arms of a common servent, who became her
first husband. Lucy (Lucia) afterwards married Gerald FitzMaurice

Mervyn was a descendent of Piers Gaveston, and also, seperately from
Edward III


We can see here at Leo's great site
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php ... 6&tree=LEO
what he has in the way of the immediate ancestry of Mervyn

Can anyone fill in the missing four great-grandparents?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Renia

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av Renia » 11 mai 2007 22:50:52

What gets me about this, is the juxtaposition of the newsgroups.

alt.politics.homosexuality
alt.support.depression.medication
soc.culture.thai

and finally,

soc.genealogy.medieval

What connection do any of these newsgroups have with each other and with
the subject matter?

Peculiar.

bob&carole wrote:
Apparently, Rep. Mark Foley is homosexual Pedophile. And like many
homosexual men, he likes young teen boys. We should pray for him that
he gets a handle on this problem and refrains from harming any more
kids .


Meanwhile, we need to wake up. The fact that this is typical behavior
for homosexuals doesn't stop us from continuing to elevate such folks
to positions where they gain access to our children.


http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=52244

Tony Hoskins

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 11 mai 2007 23:17:37

"alt.politics.homosexuality; alt.support.depression.medication; soc.culture.thai; and finally, soc.genealogy.medieval. What connection do any of these newsgroups have with each other and with the subject matter? Peculiar."

Indeed. It strikes me that set theory - if bent to this enquiry to determine this type - illustrated by Venn diagrams, might reach a fascinating conclusion. Just what would the points of congruence bespeak? (And, do we really want to know?!)

Tony Hoskins
Santa Rosa, California

wjhonson

Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham, Discov

Legg inn av wjhonson » 12 mai 2007 03:27:21

Well this is very special.
In a shocking and exciting *twist*

http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAA ... %22+coleby
Lincolnshire Pedigrees, by A R Maddison "Hall formerly FitzWilliam of
Grantham", pg 440

proclaims in bold language that "Anne dau of Sir Thomas Trollope,
Bart" was "bapt at Bourne 2 Jul 1619" and married as his second wife
Charles Hall of Kettlethorpe

I've been researching the HALL family today as many of them have low
Cecil Numbers.

But Bourne? What the heck were they doing at Bourne?
So being the glutton for punishment, I asked Familysearch and found
that the Register of Bourne has been extracted at least part. So for
the past few hours I've been editing it and low and behold....

Thomas Trollope married Hester on 9 Jun 1618 at Great Steeping,
Lincolnshire
I'm sure you recognize this as Thomas the Bart, marrying Hester
"Street" his first wife
They were the parents of the above Anne and also her next sibling Sir
William Trollope, 2nd Bart of Casewick.

This same Thomas married as his second wife that Mary Clitheroe who
bur 16 Jun 1688 and had Thomas Trollope of Barham who then after
several gen descends to that Anthony Trollope the author 1815-82

At any rate
http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/view ... llope&cr=1

claims that Thomas Trollope the first Bart had for mother Alice Sharpe
dau of William Sharpe.... (get ready) of BOURNE and voila we have our
link.

At Bourne meanwhile (For baptisms see http://www.familysearch.org - IGI -
British Isles - Batch P011781)

we have Thomas Trollope bap 26 Feb 1595, the only Thomas of the right
age. So we now see he married at age 23 and had children until he was
about 50, which all fits and explains why I couldn't find his first
family before.

His father William Trollope must be that one bap 21 Feb 1562 at Bourne
as the son of Matthew Trollope. This Matthew also had a son Thomas
who died young bap 11 Nov 1565 at Bourne and died there 25 Sep 1571.

At Bourne, other than Matthew, having children in this *same* time
period we have a Thomas Trollope with children from 1562 to 1572 and a
William Trollope with children from 1562 to 1566 and possibly as late
as 1576. I submit that these three men might very well be Brothers.

An investigation into other documents, at Bourne, might shed light on
how they connect back, but at least here we get an extra one to two
generations of information.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 mai 2007 06:04:23

On May 10, 11:45 pm, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 05/10/07 22:15:45 Pacific Standard Time, lostcoo...@yahoo.com writes:
As evidence for such widespread employment of
Native people does not seem to have surfaced, the point is again made
that the women were probably co-habiting with or married to the men
and were possibly ostracized for doing so by their own people.

Because evidence for cohabitation/marriage has not surfaced either. The only evidence you have is that Indian women appear in the archaeological record. That's it.

Why they are there is speculation. You want them to be mistresses. But a keen desire to achieve a goal doesn't make it any more likely to be true.

Will Johnson

I *want* them to be mistresses? How do you get that from what I
posted? Perhaps they were wives since the antimiscegenation laws did
not yet exist. Hey, maybe they had evicted the men and were living
there by themselves. I don't think I said anything to suggest that I
am doing any more than just speculating like everyone else. I may be
at a slight advantage in that Native Studies happens to be my area of
expertise but an educated guess is still just a guess. Until evidence
surfaces (if it ever does) to explain their presence in Jamestown
houses, I would not present anything at all as factual. And of course
there may well be more than one reason to account for their presence.
I would like to actually see the archaeological report and get a sense
of how they determined that the women were actually living there.
Bronwen

Antoine Andrra

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Antoine Andrra » 12 mai 2007 10:59:55

Dear mr. Stewart,

I tried to "decript" your messagge but ... I'm sorry ... I'can't
understand a single word!

What are you talking about?

And who's Calro Caruzzi????

Marc Antoine Andrra



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:54 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



"Francisco Tavares de Almeida" <francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com>
wrote
in message news:1178925756.803361.233070@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down for

a while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website).

Thank you, Francisco - I was wondering why someone calling himself
"Antoine
Andrra" would sign himself "M" as he did the other day, see:

"Andrra" <andrra@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.1938.1178670288.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I'm afraid you should immediately go to the see a veterinary ... for a

full check-up. Believe me.
M

Now we see how much pride "M" actually takes in his own conglomeration
of
names and assumed titles, that he needs to hide behind another identity
to
support and praise himself in public. Calro Caruzzi must be shuddering
in
his grave.

Peter Stewart



-------------------------------
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Saluzzo

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Saluzzo » 12 mai 2007 11:04:00

Are you related to the most noble family of Corleone's?

If yes I could be interested on sharing informations.

Please, contact me also privately if you prefer

Just for your information, I have no website.

Thanks

S

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:23 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down for a
while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website). Now you are
for the 2nd time changing the topic Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )
to News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website. Just like a cuckoo putting
eggs in other bird's nest! And now with the *new* name Antoine Andrra -
probably a *distant* cousin of the first Andrra. Pathetic. Btw, are you
sure that the mentioned genealogy is Correale and not Corleone?

Davide Shamà installed the password exactly to prevent the plagiarism so
is only to be expected that you and your friends have the access denied.
But there is an easy way to obtain access even from abroad. Send an e-
mail to Davide Shamà and ask him to check with one of his friends who
knows you and is wishing to be your guarantor. I am sure that the
proceeding is quite easy to you once in your list of "Ringraziamenti"
you have so many Davide's friends. Including of course the one that
already granted me the access and never had any intercourse with you or
your website.

Best regards,
Francisco




Saluzzo escreveu:
Did someone on this list can succeed to get a password on this site?
Because I personally tried from Italy, without any answer and also
some Italian people I know tried too, getting the same no-result. No
password, no access.

I'm afraid all this "password-circus" seems very much a fake. Probably

the owner has really been sued and forced not to maintain public the
site and is trying to "hide" this fact under the alleged "password
restriction"..

Can someone got different news about it. Can someone succeed in his
subscription?



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any of

the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as
soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know
if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

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Iscriviti subito! Clicca qui:
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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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Aristide

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Aristide » 12 mai 2007 11:19:15

Excuse me to introduce myself on this discussion.
I also sent some weeks ago my details to the site but... No answer.

What it means what are you say, Francisco: this site is for
"friends-only"? Where is the utility if this? That's simply ridiculous!
I can't believe it. Must exist a different reason

Thanks for your attention
Aristide

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:23 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down for a
while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website). Now you are
for the 2nd time changing the topic Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )
to News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website. Just like a cuckoo putting
eggs in other bird's nest! And now with the *new* name Antoine Andrra -
probably a *distant* cousin of the first Andrra. Pathetic. Btw, are you
sure that the mentioned genealogy is Correale and not Corleone?

Davide Shamà installed the password exactly to prevent the plagiarism so
is only to be expected that you and your friends have the access denied.
But there is an easy way to obtain access even from abroad. Send an e-
mail to Davide Shamà and ask him to check with one of his friends who
knows you and is wishing to be your guarantor. I am sure that the
proceeding is quite easy to you once in your list of "Ringraziamenti"
you have so many Davide's friends. Including of course the one that
already granted me the access and never had any intercourse with you or
your website.

Best regards,
Francisco




Saluzzo escreveu:
Did someone on this list can succeed to get a password on this site?
Because I personally tried from Italy, without any answer and also
some Italian people I know tried too, getting the same no-result. No
password, no access.

I'm afraid all this "password-circus" seems very much a fake. Probably

the owner has really been sued and forced not to maintain public the
site and is trying to "hide" this fact under the alleged "password
restriction"..

Can someone got different news about it. Can someone succeed in his
subscription?



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any of

the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as
soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know
if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

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soggiorni in tutto il mondo e un week-end per due persone a Positano.
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-------------------------------
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the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 mai 2007 11:22:13

Even you can do beter than that, surely - suddenly adding a new first name
to "Antoine Andrra" will not cover your forgetful use of "M" for signature
under this false identity, or convince anyone this patsy is not an avatar of
the very stupid and dishonest Marco Lupis, soi-disant "duke of San Donato".

If you had the nous to read the next email you would recognise your
great-grandfather's name, obvious enough even with the typos below.

Peter Stewart


"Antoine Andrra" <andrra@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.2089.1178964010.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear mr. Stewart,

I tried to "decript" your messagge but ... I'm sorry ... I'can't
understand a single word!

What are you talking about?

And who's Calro Caruzzi????

Marc Antoine Andrra



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:54 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



"Francisco Tavares de Almeida" <francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com
wrote
in message news:1178925756.803361.233070@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down for

a while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website).

Thank you, Francisco - I was wondering why someone calling himself
"Antoine
Andrra" would sign himself "M" as he did the other day, see:

"Andrra" <andrra@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.1938.1178670288.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I'm afraid you should immediately go to the see a veterinary ... for a

full check-up. Believe me.
M

Now we see how much pride "M" actually takes in his own conglomeration
of
names and assumed titles, that he needs to hide behind another identity
to
support and praise himself in public. Calro Caruzzi must be shuddering
in
his grave.

Peter Stewart



-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



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Antoine Andrra

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Antoine Andrra » 12 mai 2007 11:43:49

You are a fucking disgusting human being!!!
Who entitled you to answer a civil question whit this kind of word??????
I hope this gentleman you so fucking impolitely mentioned it will come
to find you in a shit-repository where you live, for sure.
Remember that also the Italian Postal Police can find you following your
IP!

fillern you!

Marc Antoine Andrra

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:22 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Even you can do beter than that, surely - suddenly adding a new first
name
to "Antoine Andrra" will not cover your forgetful use of "M" for
signature
under this false identity, or convince anyone this patsy is not an
avatar of
the very stupid and dishonest Marco Lupis, soi-disant "duke of San
Donato".

If you had the nous to read the next email you would recognise your
great-grandfather's name, obvious enough even with the typos below.

Peter Stewart


"Antoine Andrra" <andrra@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.2089.1178964010.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear mr. Stewart,

I tried to "decript" your messagge but ... I'm sorry ... I'can't
understand a single word!

What are you talking about?

And who's Calro Caruzzi????

Marc Antoine Andrra



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:54 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



"Francisco Tavares de Almeida" <francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com
wrote
in message
news:1178925756.803361.233070@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down
for

a while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website).

Thank you, Francisco - I was wondering why someone calling himself
"Antoine Andrra" would sign himself "M" as he did the other day, see:

"Andrra" <andrra@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.1938.1178670288.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I'm afraid you should immediately go to the see a veterinary ... for
a

full check-up. Believe me.
M

Now we see how much pride "M" actually takes in his own conglomeration

of names and assumed titles, that he needs to hide behind another
identity to
support and praise himself in public. Calro Caruzzi must be shuddering
in
his grave.

Peter Stewart



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
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bob&carole

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandal

Legg inn av bob&carole » 12 mai 2007 13:38:49

On May 12, 3:59�am, "Stan Engel" <stan_en...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"bobandcarole" <bobandcarole...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1178891514.790256.118600@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

Apparently, Rep. Mark Foley is homosexual. And like many homosexual
men, he likes young teen boys. We should pray for him that he gets a
handle on this problem and refrains from harming any more kids.

fillern you and fillern your prayers. I don't know how many groups you've posted
your off-topic bullshit to but here's at least a partial list:

alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.support.depression.medication,soc.culture.th­ai,soc.genealogy.medieval,
rec.arts.sf.fandom,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.history.what-if,alt.quotations

Your Mark Foley bullshit has nothing to do with any of the groups except for
alt.politics.homosexuality. You're a crossposting troll.

And you are a clueless fucktard

Next!!

Saluzzo

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Saluzzo » 12 mai 2007 14:47:13

I spent some time to read all the messages concerning this absurd
discussion:

It is more than evident that al least the two clowns writing under the
"Nicknames" as "Tavares de Almeida" and "Peter Stewart" they are nothing
but the same multi-legally-prosecuted Davide Shamà, "the Sardinian
genitor who want to make himself a scholar". Very pathetic. No need to
spend one more second in this ridiculous discussion.
Regards

Ernesto Taverneses Calcaterra de Saleida, last king Stewart


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:04 PM
To: 'Francisco Tavares de Almeida'; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Are you related to the most noble family of Corleone's?

If yes I could be interested on sharing informations.

Please, contact me also privately if you prefer

Just for your information, I have no website.

Thanks

S

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:23 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down for a
while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website). Now you are
for the 2nd time changing the topic Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )
to News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website. Just like a cuckoo putting
eggs in other bird's nest! And now with the *new* name Antoine Andrra -
probably a *distant* cousin of the first Andrra. Pathetic. Btw, are you
sure that the mentioned genealogy is Correale and not Corleone?

Davide Shamà installed the password exactly to prevent the plagiarism so
is only to be expected that you and your friends have the access denied.
But there is an easy way to obtain access even from abroad. Send an e-
mail to Davide Shamà and ask him to check with one of his friends who
knows you and is wishing to be your guarantor. I am sure that the
proceeding is quite easy to you once in your list of "Ringraziamenti"
you have so many Davide's friends. Including of course the one that
already granted me the access and never had any intercourse with you or
your website.

Best regards,
Francisco




Saluzzo escreveu:
Did someone on this list can succeed to get a password on this site?
Because I personally tried from Italy, without any answer and also
some Italian people I know tried too, getting the same no-result. No
password, no access.

I'm afraid all this "password-circus" seems very much a fake. Probably

the owner has really been sued and forced not to maintain public the
site and is trying to "hide" this fact under the alleged "password
restriction"..

Can someone got different news about it. Can someone succeed in his
subscription?



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any of

the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as
soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know
if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Gioca on-line con Best Western! Puoi vincere buoni-sconto per
soggiorni in tutto il mondo e un week-end per due persone a Positano.
Iscriviti subito! Clicca qui:
http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?midd97&d-5


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
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Sponsor:
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-------------------------------
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Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 mai 2007 15:12:20

Are you now the marquis of Saluzzo as well?

SGM is a dangerous place for excitable frauds, as your latest post under the
pseudonym "Antoine Andrra" so disgracefully shows.

Your Freudian slip is also showing - a janitor is not nearly the same as a
"genitor". I know very little about David Shama, but I am sure that anyone's
employment in another field indicates nothing at all about capacities and
skills in genealogy.

Francisco has been posting to the newsgroup, honourably under his own name,
for more than two years. I have been here for seven or so, always identified
by my own name.

A hint: I am not in Sardinia, but in Australia. What is "evident" to you is
absolute nonsense to everyone else, rather like the your claim to the
dukedom of San Donato.

Peter Stewart


"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.2111.1178977649.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I spent some time to read all the messages concerning this absurd
discussion:

It is more than evident that al least the two clowns writing under the
"Nicknames" as "Tavares de Almeida" and "Peter Stewart" they are nothing
but the same multi-legally-prosecuted Davide Shamà, "the Sardinian
genitor who want to make himself a scholar". Very pathetic. No need to
spend one more second in this ridiculous discussion.
Regards

Ernesto Taverneses Calcaterra de Saleida, last king Stewart


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:04 PM
To: 'Francisco Tavares de Almeida'; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Are you related to the most noble family of Corleone's?

If yes I could be interested on sharing informations.

Please, contact me also privately if you prefer

Just for your information, I have no website.

Thanks

S

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:23 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down for a
while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website). Now you are
for the 2nd time changing the topic Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )
to News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website. Just like a cuckoo putting
eggs in other bird's nest! And now with the *new* name Antoine Andrra -
probably a *distant* cousin of the first Andrra. Pathetic. Btw, are you
sure that the mentioned genealogy is Correale and not Corleone?

Davide Shamà installed the password exactly to prevent the plagiarism so
is only to be expected that you and your friends have the access denied.
But there is an easy way to obtain access even from abroad. Send an e-
mail to Davide Shamà and ask him to check with one of his friends who
knows you and is wishing to be your guarantor. I am sure that the
proceeding is quite easy to you once in your list of "Ringraziamenti"
you have so many Davide's friends. Including of course the one that
already granted me the access and never had any intercourse with you or
your website.

Best regards,
Francisco




Saluzzo escreveu:
Did someone on this list can succeed to get a password on this site?
Because I personally tried from Italy, without any answer and also
some Italian people I know tried too, getting the same no-result. No
password, no access.

I'm afraid all this "password-circus" seems very much a fake. Probably

the owner has really been sued and forced not to maintain public the
site and is trying to "hide" this fact under the alleged "password
restriction"..

Can someone got different news about it. Can someone succeed in his
subscription?



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any of

the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as
soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know
if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Gioca on-line con Best Western! Puoi vincere buoni-sconto per
soggiorni in tutto il mondo e un week-end per due persone a Positano.
Iscriviti subito! Clicca qui:
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-------------------------------
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the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



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-------------------------------
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Saluzzo

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Saluzzo » 12 mai 2007 15:58:29

Oh, now I understood. You are the australian JANITOR Davide Stewart. Ok.
Now is clear.

As you wrote yourself I'm not the only one in this list that is not so
SURE that you write from Australia...
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 1178670367

You know, in Italy some people use to say: "Quando la merda monta in
cattedra, o fa puzza o fa danno" .
Need translation? Just ask.

Antonius Severida, emperor of Australian Stewart Kingdom



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 4:12 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Are you now the marquis of Saluzzo as well?

SGM is a dangerous place for excitable frauds, as your latest post under
the
pseudonym "Antoine Andrra" so disgracefully shows.

Your Freudian slip is also showing - a janitor is not nearly the same as
a
"genitor". I know very little about David Shama, but I am sure that
anyone's
employment in another field indicates nothing at all about capacities
and
skills in genealogy.

Francisco has been posting to the newsgroup, honourably under his own
name,
for more than two years. I have been here for seven or so, always
identified
by my own name.

A hint: I am not in Sardinia, but in Australia. What is "evident" to you
is
absolute nonsense to everyone else, rather like the your claim to the
dukedom of San Donato.

Peter Stewart


"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.2111.1178977649.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I spent some time to read all the messages concerning this absurd
discussion:

It is more than evident that al least the two clowns writing under the

"Nicknames" as "Tavares de Almeida" and "Peter Stewart" they are
nothing but the same multi-legally-prosecuted Davide Shamà, "the
Sardinian genitor who want to make himself a scholar". Very pathetic.
No need to spend one more second in this ridiculous discussion.
Regards

Ernesto Taverneses Calcaterra de Saleida, last king Stewart


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:04 PM
To: 'Francisco Tavares de Almeida'; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Are you related to the most noble family of Corleone's?

If yes I could be interested on sharing informations.

Please, contact me also privately if you prefer

Just for your information, I have no website.

Thanks

S

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:23 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down for

a while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website). Now you are

for the 2nd time changing the topic Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926-

) to News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website. Just like a cuckoo
putting eggs in other bird's nest! And now with the *new* name Antoine

Andrra - probably a *distant* cousin of the first Andrra. Pathetic.
Btw, are you sure that the mentioned genealogy is Correale and not
Corleone?

Davide Shamà installed the password exactly to prevent the plagiarism
so is only to be expected that you and your friends have the access
denied. But there is an easy way to obtain access even from abroad.
Send an e- mail to Davide Shamà and ask him to check with one of his
friends who knows you and is wishing to be your guarantor. I am sure
that the proceeding is quite easy to you once in your list of
"Ringraziamenti" you have so many Davide's friends. Including of
course the one that already granted me the access and never had any
intercourse with you or your website.

Best regards,
Francisco




Saluzzo escreveu:
Did someone on this list can succeed to get a password on this site?
Because I personally tried from Italy, without any answer and also
some Italian people I know tried too, getting the same no-result. No
password, no access.

I'm afraid all this "password-circus" seems very much a fake.
Probably

the owner has really been sued and forced not to maintain public the

site and is trying to "hide" this fact under the alleged "password
restriction"..

Can someone got different news about it. Can someone succeed in his
subscription?



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any
of

the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as

soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know
if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






--
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Saluzzo

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Saluzzo » 12 mai 2007 16:04:54

PS: Now in australia is 5 clock in the morning ....
You are not used to slip in the night?

Which kind of stupid can beliewe you?

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 4:12 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Are you now the marquis of Saluzzo as well?

SGM is a dangerous place for excitable frauds, as your latest post under
the
pseudonym "Antoine Andrra" so disgracefully shows.

Your Freudian slip is also showing - a janitor is not nearly the same as
a
"genitor". I know very little about David Shama, but I am sure that
anyone's
employment in another field indicates nothing at all about capacities
and
skills in genealogy.

Francisco has been posting to the newsgroup, honourably under his own
name,
for more than two years. I have been here for seven or so, always
identified
by my own name.

A hint: I am not in Sardinia, but in Australia. What is "evident" to you
is
absolute nonsense to everyone else, rather like the your claim to the
dukedom of San Donato.

Peter Stewart


"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.2111.1178977649.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I spent some time to read all the messages concerning this absurd
discussion:

It is more than evident that al least the two clowns writing under the

"Nicknames" as "Tavares de Almeida" and "Peter Stewart" they are
nothing but the same multi-legally-prosecuted Davide Shamà, "the
Sardinian genitor who want to make himself a scholar". Very pathetic.
No need to spend one more second in this ridiculous discussion.
Regards

Ernesto Taverneses Calcaterra de Saleida, last king Stewart


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:04 PM
To: 'Francisco Tavares de Almeida'; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Are you related to the most noble family of Corleone's?

If yes I could be interested on sharing informations.

Please, contact me also privately if you prefer

Just for your information, I have no website.

Thanks

S

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:23 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down for

a while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website). Now you are

for the 2nd time changing the topic Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926-

) to News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website. Just like a cuckoo
putting eggs in other bird's nest! And now with the *new* name Antoine

Andrra - probably a *distant* cousin of the first Andrra. Pathetic.
Btw, are you sure that the mentioned genealogy is Correale and not
Corleone?

Davide Shamà installed the password exactly to prevent the plagiarism
so is only to be expected that you and your friends have the access
denied. But there is an easy way to obtain access even from abroad.
Send an e- mail to Davide Shamà and ask him to check with one of his
friends who knows you and is wishing to be your guarantor. I am sure
that the proceeding is quite easy to you once in your list of
"Ringraziamenti" you have so many Davide's friends. Including of
course the one that already granted me the access and never had any
intercourse with you or your website.

Best regards,
Francisco




Saluzzo escreveu:
Did someone on this list can succeed to get a password on this site?
Because I personally tried from Italy, without any answer and also
some Italian people I know tried too, getting the same no-result. No
password, no access.

I'm afraid all this "password-circus" seems very much a fake.
Probably

the owner has really been sued and forced not to maintain public the

site and is trying to "hide" this fact under the alleged "password
restriction"..

Can someone got different news about it. Can someone succeed in his
subscription?



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any
of

the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as

soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know
if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Gioca on-line con Best Western! Puoi vincere buoni-sconto per
soggiorni in tutto il mondo e un week-end per due persone a Positano.

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http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?midd97&d-5


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
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conoscere il Carnevale, per rivivere l'edizione 2007. Acquistalo on
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-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



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Gjest

Re: C.P.Addition: Bluet marriage of Isabel de Beaumont, wido

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 mai 2007 19:21:59

On May 11, 3:40�pm, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:
Oh, I see what you mean, he was a son by a former wife of __ Bluet?

Adrian

In a message dated 11/05/2007 20:25:21 GMT Standard Time,  

ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com writes:

Are you  suggesting that William Bluet was a grantor of land at a date  
before  
1168 and that he was born after 1148, i.e. made a grant of land   whilst
under
aged, or have I misinterpreted you post.

(BTW, in my  1990 edition of David Crouch's book, the suggestion is on page  
139  not 149)

Adrian

Hello Adrian,

Thank you for your participation in this Bloet discussion, all
interest is welcome as I am still very much a novice in this area.

(BTW, you are correct) ...in the 1990 edition of Crouch's book "
William Marshal, Court, Career and Chivalry in the Angevin Empire
1147-1219" the Bloets are mentioned on both pages 138 and 139.

~ BUT ~

In the second edition for the Pearson Education publishing copy,
Crouch changed the title of the book to... " William Marshal,
Knighthood, War and Chivalry, 1147-1219" and the Bloet information can
be found on pages 148 and 149.

Also, I believe that Doug was suggesting that the date of 1168 is
the earlest possible one for this grant (which was supplied to me by
Dr. Crouch in personal email), was given as 1168 because it was
witnessed by Robert de Beaumont/ 3rd Earl Leicester's personal house
knights from the witness list of the actual grant. It was Dr. Crouch
who gave the 1168 date, I apologize for any confusion here, as I may
have only stated the earlier date to Doug.

I am posting a copy of the email as received from Dr. Crouch to
further clear this up:


Subject: RE: Questions about Bloets
Date: 3/20/2007 7:26:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: D.Crouch@hull.ac.uk
Reply To:
To: KarRpk@aol.com


Karen

Apologies, I misquoted the source. The charter is by <Willelmus Bloet
frater comitis Ricardi> by which he grants to Warin de Basevilla 100
shillings worth of land in Hecham and La Wike (Higham on the Hill,
Leics, by my identification - Heacham, co Norf, was not a member of
the honor of Leicester) half of the ten pounds worth of land given
William by Earl Robert II of Leicester, this for � knight's fee. The
grant is executed in the court of Robert III of Leicester as is clear
from the witness list. It must date between 1168 and 1189.

David

I hope that anyone wishing to see this grant will ask, and I will
gladly attach a file with a scanned copy of the grant to them via
reply email.

Cheers,
Karen Repko

Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 13 mai 2007 00:07:46

The link provided in your earlier email is to a post from John Brandon that
has nothing to say about my location. Foiled again.

Your calculation of the time my post below was sent is also wrong: the time
shown is 4:12 pm on Saturday 12 May, the corresponding time shown at my end
is 12:12 am on Sunday 13 May, i.e 8 hours ahead. Can you not work this out,
for Italy and Australia respectively? Neither time is 5 o'clock in the
morning, not even close.

Peter Stewart


"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.2115.1178982309.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
PS: Now in australia is 5 clock in the morning ....
You are not used to slip in the night?

Which kind of stupid can beliewe you?

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 4:12 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Are you now the marquis of Saluzzo as well?

SGM is a dangerous place for excitable frauds, as your latest post under
the
pseudonym "Antoine Andrra" so disgracefully shows.

Your Freudian slip is also showing - a janitor is not nearly the same as
a
"genitor". I know very little about David Shama, but I am sure that
anyone's
employment in another field indicates nothing at all about capacities
and
skills in genealogy.

Francisco has been posting to the newsgroup, honourably under his own
name,
for more than two years. I have been here for seven or so, always
identified
by my own name.

A hint: I am not in Sardinia, but in Australia. What is "evident" to you
is
absolute nonsense to everyone else, rather like the your claim to the
dukedom of San Donato.

Peter Stewart


"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> wrote in message
news:mailman.2111.1178977649.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I spent some time to read all the messages concerning this absurd
discussion:

It is more than evident that al least the two clowns writing under the

"Nicknames" as "Tavares de Almeida" and "Peter Stewart" they are
nothing but the same multi-legally-prosecuted Davide Shamà, "the
Sardinian genitor who want to make himself a scholar". Very pathetic.
No need to spend one more second in this ridiculous discussion.
Regards

Ernesto Taverneses Calcaterra de Saleida, last king Stewart


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:04 PM
To: 'Francisco Tavares de Almeida'; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Are you related to the most noble family of Corleone's?

If yes I could be interested on sharing informations.

Please, contact me also privately if you prefer

Just for your information, I have no website.

Thanks

S

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:23 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


Quosque tandem ...? Give up or, at least, let the things cool down for

a while.

You have already been Saluzzo, Jack Bashon, MLS, Andrra (9 Mai 2007
01:23 topic Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website). Now you are

for the 2nd time changing the topic Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926-

) to News on http://www.genmarenostrum.com website. Just like a cuckoo
putting eggs in other bird's nest! And now with the *new* name Antoine

Andrra - probably a *distant* cousin of the first Andrra. Pathetic.
Btw, are you sure that the mentioned genealogy is Correale and not
Corleone?

Davide Shamà installed the password exactly to prevent the plagiarism
so is only to be expected that you and your friends have the access
denied. But there is an easy way to obtain access even from abroad.
Send an e- mail to Davide Shamà and ask him to check with one of his
friends who knows you and is wishing to be your guarantor. I am sure
that the proceeding is quite easy to you once in your list of
"Ringraziamenti" you have so many Davide's friends. Including of
course the one that already granted me the access and never had any
intercourse with you or your website.

Best regards,
Francisco




Saluzzo escreveu:
Did someone on this list can succeed to get a password on this site?
Because I personally tried from Italy, without any answer and also
some Italian people I know tried too, getting the same no-result. No
password, no access.

I'm afraid all this "password-circus" seems very much a fake.
Probably

the owner has really been sued and forced not to maintain public the

site and is trying to "hide" this fact under the alleged "password
restriction"..

Can someone got different news about it. Can someone succeed in his
subscription?



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any
of

the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as

soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know
if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

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-------------------------------
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the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



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La N

Re: Brit & Canadian Officers Generally SHARE Swords From A P

Legg inn av La N » 13 mai 2007 05:39:53

Spencer, could you please remind the gentle readership of your own stellar
military career?

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:1Bw1i.128$y33.318@eagle.america.net...
Appalling!

Your Armed Forces are indeed penny ante.

DSH
-----------------------------------------------

Andrew Chaplin" <ab.chaplin@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in message
news:2NqdnSffpKYzDtvbnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@giganews.com...

As you might have gathered from my reply to William, you now know of two
in the Canadian Forces, if only virtually. However, if you press me, I
can
name only a half dozen, including myself, who bought their own
swords, and most of those are graduates of Charm School.


Gjest

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 mai 2007 06:09:02

Dear Spencer,
I`m not sure if superior Cultures always do win out
over inferior ones the whole Superior / Inferior thing is so subjective that
I`m not sure I agree with that statement. By the way , while Geronimo and
several Apache leaders did in fact surrender to the United States, Cochise never
did. He made a treaty favorable to his nation and died before the United States
decided to treat the Apaches to another dose of Manifest Destiny.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Repousse@gmail.com

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av Repousse@gmail.com » 13 mai 2007 17:02:40

SPEAKING OF SEXUAL FASCISTS, SOUNDS LIKE BOB AND CAROLE ARE TWO OF
THEM.


On May 11, 2:51?pm, bob&carole <bobandcarole...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Apparently, Rep. Mark Foley is homosexual Pedophile. And like many
homosexual men, he likes young teen boys. We should pray for him that
he gets a handle on this problem and refrains from harming any more
kids .

Meanwhile, we need to wake up. The fact that this is typical behavior
for homosexuals doesn't stop us from continuing to elevate such folks
to positions where they gain access to our children.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=52244

ScottyFLL

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av ScottyFLL » 13 mai 2007 18:39:46

On May 13, 12:02�pm, "Repou...@gmail.com" <Repou...@gmail.com> wrote:
SPEAKING OF SEXUAL FASCISTS,  SOUNDS LIKE BOB AND CAROLE ARE TWO OF
THEM.

I don't remember asking you
On May 11, 2:51?pm, bob&carole <bobandcarole...@hotmail.com> wrote:



Apparently, Rep. Mark Foley is homosexual Pedophile. And like many
homosexual men, he likes young teen boys. We should pray for him that
he gets a handle on this problem and refrains from harming any more
kids .

Meanwhile, we need to wake up. The fact that this is typical behavior
for homosexuals doesn't stop us from continuing to elevate such folks
to positions where they gain access to our children.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... _ID=52244- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

bob&carole.

Re: Sexual fascism and the Mark Foley scandel

Legg inn av bob&carole. » 13 mai 2007 18:50:56

On May 13, 12:02�pm, "Repou...@gmail.com" <Repou...@gmail.com> wrote:
SPEAKING OF SEXUAL FASCISTS,  SOUNDS LIKE BOB AND CAROLE ARE TWO OF
THEM.

That is preferable to being an inbred kiddiefucker like you.
On May 11, 2:51?pm, bob&carole <bobandcarole...@hotmail.com> wrote:



Apparently, Rep. Mark Foley is homosexual Pedophile. And like many
homosexual men, he likes young teen boys. We should pray for him that
he gets a handle on this problem and refrains from harming any more
kids .

Meanwhile, we need to wake up. The fact that this is typical behavior
for homosexuals doesn't stop us from continuing to elevate such folks
to positions where they gain access to our children.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... _ID=52244- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chris Dickinson

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 13 mai 2007 21:00:34

Will Johnson wrote:

By the way is a Lord the same as a Peer ?


Nope.

You can be a Lord (e.g. land lord, lord of the manor) without any
aristocratic status. Unless you are making a special point about Lord with a
big L - in which case, again no, because there are various titles (e.g.
courtesy) which have never made you into a Peer.

Chris

Renia

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Renia » 13 mai 2007 21:23:10

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 5/13/2007 12:40:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:


If a man held land by knight's service then he was a knight (in the
feudal sense); it didn't matter how many knight's fees he held.
Additionaly, if he held in chief on the king he was a peer (in the
feudal sense) of the realm.


No, he wasn't. A peer of the realm is was someone entitled to sit in the
House of Lords. A medieval knight was never able to go to Parliament,
unless he was a collector of taxes.


If you read it again you will see that "if he held" modifies "man" not
"knight".
If a MAN held in chief of the king... is what is intended.

By the way is a Lord the same as a Peer ?

Whichever way you read it, whether a man held land in chief of the king
or my knight's service or by scutage, he was not a peer of the realm in
any sense.

There are still Lords of the Manor today. You can buy these titles but
they do not and did not entitle you to sit in the House of Lords. A Lord
of the Manor has never been a peer. He was simply the chief landlord of
that manor.

Peers got their name from being part of a "peer group", that is, people
of similar social ranking. Your son (if you have one) no doubt prefers
to go out with his peers (his similarly-aged friends with similar
interests), rather than rattle about with all the old people on Sundays.

Gjest

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 mai 2007 21:49:02

In a message dated 5/13/2007 12:40:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

If a man held land by knight's service then he was a knight (in the
feudal sense); it didn't matter how many knight's fees he held.
Additionaly, if he held in chief on the king he was a peer (in the
feudal sense) of the realm.

No, he wasn't. A peer of the realm is was someone entitled to sit in the
House of Lords. A medieval knight was never able to go to Parliament,
unless he was a collector of taxes.


If you read it again you will see that "if he held" modifies "man" not
"knight".
If a MAN held in chief of the king... is what is intended.

By the way is a Lord the same as a Peer ?

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Ian Goddard

Re: Descents From Edward III For Judge Richard Aske, Regicid

Legg inn av Ian Goddard » 13 mai 2007 22:59:31

Brad Verity wrote:


Will of Lady Aleisa Myton, dated 16 Apr 1440, at Aughton, proved 22
July 1440. Executor Richard Aske. [Testamenta Eboracensia Part III,
Surtees Society, Vol 30, Durham, 1855, p 76]

I couldn't access her will through Google Books.


Try here:
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/choosefamily.html
--
Ian Goddard

Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk

Gjest

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 mai 2007 00:44:02

Dear Spencer,
My best guess would be that Thomas Edward Lawrence
9known as Lawrence of Arabia) probably did speak Welsh as He seems to have spoken
several languages and had a deep interest in History, Wasn`t He working as an
Egyptologist not long before joining the English army in Africa ?
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Renia

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Renia » 14 mai 2007 19:29:03

Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:

Graham Milne writes:-

all the tenants in chief of a baron were peers of each other; and
they were, respectively, peers of the kingdom and peers of the barony. So,
it is quite correct to refer to a kinght [sic] who was a tenant-in-chief of
the
king as a peer of the kingdom (that is, a peer of the realm). And the
consent of ALL tenants in chief of the King was required for the grant of
an
extraordinary aid, which basically meant any taxation, so if a knight was a
tenant in chief of the king he had a right to attend Parliament to give his
consent to extraordinary aids.

Could Mr Milne please forgive my ignorance, and answer for me the following
questions:-
1. What is the earliest date at which any knight who was a tenant in chief
of the king is referred to in any source as a "peer of the realm" or "peer of
the kingdom"?
2. What is the earliest date (if any) at which any "tenant in chief" of a
baron is referred to as a "peer of the barony"
3.What he means by the expression "tenant in chief of a baron"?
4. What is his authority for the proposition that "the consent of ALL
tenants in chief of the King was required for the grant of an extraordinary aid,
which basically meant any taxation, so if a knight was a
tenant in chief of the king he had a right to attend Parliament to give his
consent to extraordinary aids"?

I have to say, in my ignorance, that I doubt the whole of the passage which
I have quoted from Mr Milne's post
MM

I would doubt all of it. Mr Milne doesn't know what he is talking about.

Gjest

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 mai 2007 20:24:02

Graham Milne writes:-

<all the tenants in chief of a baron were peers of each other; and
<they were, respectively, peers of the kingdom and peers of the barony. So,
<it is quite correct to refer to a kinght [sic] who was a tenant-in-chief of
the
<king as a peer of the kingdom (that is, a peer of the realm). And the
<consent of ALL tenants in chief of the King was required for the grant of
an
<extraordinary aid, which basically meant any taxation, so if a knight was a
<tenant in chief of the king he had a right to attend Parliament to give his
<consent to extraordinary aids.

Could Mr Milne please forgive my ignorance, and answer for me the following
questions:-
1. What is the earliest date at which any knight who was a tenant in chief
of the king is referred to in any source as a "peer of the realm" or "peer of
the kingdom"?
2. What is the earliest date (if any) at which any "tenant in chief" of a
baron is referred to as a "peer of the barony"
3.What he means by the expression "tenant in chief of a baron"?
4. What is his authority for the proposition that "the consent of ALL
tenants in chief of the King was required for the grant of an extraordinary aid,
which basically meant any taxation, so if a knight was a
tenant in chief of the king he had a right to attend Parliament to give his
consent to extraordinary aids"?

I have to say, in my ignorance, that I doubt the whole of the passage which
I have quoted from Mr Milne's post
MM

Graham Milne

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Graham Milne » 15 mai 2007 00:17:48

Try reading Magna Carta, clause 39, which states that: 'No freeman shall be
seized, or imprisoned, or dispossessed, or outlawed, or in any way
destroyed; nor will we condemn him, nor will we commit him to prison,
excepting by the legal judgement of his peers, or by the laws of the land.'

A tenant in chief simply means an immediate tenant. i.e. someone holding
directly of someone else.

'Reports from the Lords Committees touching the Dignity of a Peer of the
Realm' (1819) states (p. 54) that:
'the records of the reign of King John seem to give strong ground for
supposing that all the King's tenants in chief by military tenure, if not
all tenants in chief, were at one time deemed necessary members of the
common councils of the realm, when summoned for extraordinary purposes, and
especially for the purpose of obtaining a grant of any extraordinary aid to
the king.'

I hope this helps.

<Millerfairfield@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2189.1179166999.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Graham Milne writes:-

all the tenants in chief of a baron were peers of each other; and
they were, respectively, peers of the kingdom and peers of the barony.
So,
it is quite correct to refer to a kinght [sic] who was a tenant-in-chief
of
the
king as a peer of the kingdom (that is, a peer of the realm). And the
consent of ALL tenants in chief of the King was required for the grant
of
an
extraordinary aid, which basically meant any taxation, so if a knight
was a
tenant in chief of the king he had a right to attend Parliament to give
his
consent to extraordinary aids.

Could Mr Milne please forgive my ignorance, and answer for me the
following
questions:-
1. What is the earliest date at which any knight who was a tenant in
chief
of the king is referred to in any source as a "peer of the realm" or
"peer of
the kingdom"?
2. What is the earliest date (if any) at which any "tenant in chief" of
a
baron is referred to as a "peer of the barony"
3.What he means by the expression "tenant in chief of a baron"?
4. What is his authority for the proposition that "the consent of ALL
tenants in chief of the King was required for the grant of an
extraordinary aid,
which basically meant any taxation, so if a knight was a
tenant in chief of the king he had a right to attend Parliament to give
his
consent to extraordinary aids"?

I have to say, in my ignorance, that I doubt the whole of the passage
which
I have quoted from Mr Milne's post
MM








Graham Milne

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Graham Milne » 15 mai 2007 00:19:35

You spoke too soon...

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:f2a9p7$r00$3@mouse.otenet.gr...
Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:

Graham Milne writes:-

all the tenants in chief of a baron were peers of each other; and <they
were, respectively, peers of the kingdom and peers of the barony. So,
it is quite correct to refer to a kinght [sic] who was a
tenant-in-chief of the <king as a peer of the kingdom (that is, a peer
of the realm). And the <consent of ALL tenants in chief of the King was
required for the grant of an <extraordinary aid, which basically meant
any taxation, so if a knight was a <tenant in chief of the king he had a
right to attend Parliament to give his <consent to extraordinary aids.
Could Mr Milne please forgive my ignorance, and answer for me the
following questions:-
1. What is the earliest date at which any knight who was a tenant in
chief of the king is referred to in any source as a "peer of the realm"
or "peer of the kingdom"?
2. What is the earliest date (if any) at which any "tenant in chief" of
a baron is referred to as a "peer of the barony"
3.What he means by the expression "tenant in chief of a baron"?
4. What is his authority for the proposition that "the consent of ALL
tenants in chief of the King was required for the grant of an
extraordinary aid, which basically meant any taxation, so if a knight was
a tenant in chief of the king he had a right to attend Parliament to
give his consent to extraordinary aids"?
I have to say, in my ignorance, that I doubt the whole of the passage
which I have quoted from Mr Milne's post
MM

I would doubt all of it. Mr Milne doesn't know what he is talking about.

Renia

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Renia » 15 mai 2007 00:46:38

Graham Milne wrote:

Try reading Magna Carta, clause 39, which states that: 'No freeman shall
be seized, or imprisoned, or dispossessed, or outlawed, or in any way
destroyed; nor will we condemn him, nor will we commit him to prison,
excepting by the legal judgement of his peers, or by the laws of the land.'

This is the origin of the later term, peer, but in this context, "his
peers" does not mean lords, barons, knights or otherwise. It means a
jury of like freemen, his peers. But in order to serve on a jury, one
had to have a property qualification


A tenant in chief simply means an immediate tenant. i.e. someone holding
directly of someone else.

No, it did not. A tenant-in-chief was one who held land directly from
the king. Otherwise, everybody was a tenant-in-chief of someone.

'Reports from the Lords Committees touching the Dignity of a Peer of the
Realm' (1819) states (p. 54) that:
'the records of the reign of King John seem to give strong ground for
supposing that all the King's tenants in chief by military tenure, if
not all tenants in chief, were at one time deemed necessary members of
the common councils of the realm, when summoned for extraordinary
purposes, and especially for the purpose of obtaining a grant of any
extraordinary aid to the king.'

As I said earlier, certain landholders were collectors of taxes and it
is these men who went to Parliament (the forerunners of today's MPs),
not every landholder or tenant-in-chief.

Chris Dickinson

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 15 mai 2007 00:50:24

Graham Milne wrote:

Try reading Magna Carta, clause 39, which states that: 'No freeman shall
be seized, or imprisoned, or dispossessed, or outlawed, or in any way
destroyed; nor will we condemn him, nor will we commit him to prison,
excepting by the legal judgement of his peers, or by the laws of the
land.'
snip



Another published version of the same text:

'No freeman shall be arrested, or imprisoned, or deprived of his freehold,
or outlawed, or banished or in any way ruined; nor will we take or order
action against him, except by the lawful judgement of his EQUALS and
according to the law of the land.'

Trial by jury.


Chris

WJhonson

Re: Sir John de Eyville (d. 1325) and his wife Margaret: a c

Legg inn av WJhonson » 15 mai 2007 02:31:30

A few things I noticed. In your discussion you post a document which states that Robert is "son and heir" of John Deiville, but then you don't add Robert in your summary of the children of John where you only show Joan.

Since John Deiville married Margaret after 14 Oct 1321 but before 12 Mar 1322 (or 1321/2 if you prefer) and since this Robert is acting as an adult by 1331, can we surmise that this Robert must be a son by John's first wife Agnes?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Sam Sloan

Re: Royal Family of Europe

Legg inn av Sam Sloan » 15 mai 2007 04:19:42

On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:05:41 -0500, "A Tsar Is Born"
<enchante@herodotus.com> wrote:

"Gary Holtzman" <gholtzmn@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:20011031224547.764$Po@newsreader.com...
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:

Just wondering: How does one die of grief when he is only 30 years
old?

Perhaps he killed himself.

Yes, I sometimes wonder whether this "died of grief" diagnosis which
appears in
medieval and early modern chronicles is a euphemism (or, perhaps, an
insightful
description) for suicide. Other times I wonder whether the medievals
simply
recognized a very real cause of death that modern medicine does not.

James had lived a very full life in a very bad climate, and had indulged
himself excessively in sexual behavior at a time when syphilis was brand
new, very fatal, very rampant. There were all sorts of other ailments.
Porphyria ran in his family.

It beats me, sometimes, how anyone lived to 30 before Louis Pasteur's day.
All sorts of things could and did kill everybody.

Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsarisborn@hotmail.com

Yes, syphilis was brand new. King James V of Scotland died in 1542. It
has been conclusively established that syphilis did not exist in
Europe until after Columbus returned from America in 1492. By digging
up old skeletons, it has been established that the American Indians
has syphilis prior to 1492 and Europeans did not. Syphilis swept
Europe as an epidemic killing millions in the early 1500s. I believe
that this is what brought on the Protestant Reformation and the
Puritan Ethic. Apparently, free love reigned in Europe until Columbus
and his men returned from Ameica.

The Europeans believed at that time that they had gotten syphilis from
America, and it has now been proven that they were right.

King James V of Scotland was married twice and had at least ten
different mistresses that we know of and probably some that we do not
know of. We know that he had at least ten mistresses because he had at
least one child by each of them. Obviously, he was a prime candidate
for syphilis.

Sam Sloan
http://www.ishipress.com

Loki

Re: Royal Family of Europe

Legg inn av Loki » 15 mai 2007 05:54:42

Actually, this may not be the case at all.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_12479541

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_12479541

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1359758.stm

http://www.shoppbs.org/sm-pbs-secrets-o ... 04101.html

There are more but that should be enough. Right now , no one seems to
really know the origin of syphilis.

Loki

"Sam Sloan" <sloan@ishipress.com> wrote in message
news:464926a3.417043156@ca.news.verio.net...
On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:05:41 -0500, "A Tsar Is Born"
enchante@herodotus.com> wrote:

"Gary Holtzman" <gholtzmn@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:20011031224547.764$Po@newsreader.com...
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:

Just wondering: How does one die of grief when he is only 30 years
old?

Perhaps he killed himself.

Yes, I sometimes wonder whether this "died of grief" diagnosis which
appears in
medieval and early modern chronicles is a euphemism (or, perhaps, an
insightful
description) for suicide. Other times I wonder whether the medievals
simply
recognized a very real cause of death that modern medicine does not.

James had lived a very full life in a very bad climate, and had indulged
himself excessively in sexual behavior at a time when syphilis was brand
new, very fatal, very rampant. There were all sorts of other ailments.
Porphyria ran in his family.

It beats me, sometimes, how anyone lived to 30 before Louis Pasteur's day.
All sorts of things could and did kill everybody.

Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsarisborn@hotmail.com

Yes, syphilis was brand new. King James V of Scotland died in 1542. It
has been conclusively established that syphilis did not exist in
Europe until after Columbus returned from America in 1492. By digging
up old skeletons, it has been established that the American Indians
has syphilis prior to 1492 and Europeans did not. Syphilis swept
Europe as an epidemic killing millions in the early 1500s. I believe
that this is what brought on the Protestant Reformation and the
Puritan Ethic. Apparently, free love reigned in Europe until Columbus
and his men returned from Ameica.

The Europeans believed at that time that they had gotten syphilis from
America, and it has now been proven that they were right.

King James V of Scotland was married twice and had at least ten
different mistresses that we know of and probably some that we do not
know of. We know that he had at least ten mistresses because he had at
least one child by each of them. Obviously, he was a prime candidate
for syphilis.

Sam Sloan
http://www.ishipress.com

Candide

Re: Royal Family of Europe

Legg inn av Candide » 15 mai 2007 08:17:31

"Loki" <docsloki@aol.com> wrote in message
news:q2b2i.150$6h1.3@newsfe12.lga...
Actually, this may not be the case at all.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_12479541

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_12479541

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1359758.stm


http://www.shoppbs.org/sm-pbs-secrets-o ... 04101.html

There are more but that should be enough. Right now , no one seems
to
really know the origin of syphilis.

Loki

There is a program here called "Secrets of the Dead" and an episode
death with the Chelmsford tie to syphilis and it does seem likely some
sort of the disease did exist in Europe prior to the 1500's, or at least
that part of England.

As for Europeans blaming the Americas for giving them syphilis,
Europeans engaged in some of the first wholesale bio-terrorism by
intentionally and unintentionally unleashing smallpox ( a disease
totally foreign to the Americas) wiping out entire populations that had
existed for centuries.

There were probably lots of royals who had and or died of venereal
disease before a decent treatment was developed. Henry VIII certainly
had some sort of VD (which he passed to his long wished for son), and
didn't one of Queen Victoria's boys who had a bag of shady bedroom
tricks have it as well?

Candide

Chess One

Re: Royal Family of Europe

Legg inn av Chess One » 15 mai 2007 12:28:51

"Sam Sloan" <sloan@ishipress.com> wrote in message
news:464926a3.417043156@ca.news.verio.net...
On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:05:41 -0500, "A Tsar Is Born"
enchante@herodotus.com> wrote:

"Gary Holtzman" <gholtzmn@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:20011031224547.764$Po@newsreader.com...
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:

Just wondering: How does one die of grief when he is only 30 years
old?

Perhaps he killed himself.

Yes, I sometimes wonder whether this "died of grief" diagnosis which
appears in
medieval and early modern chronicles is a euphemism (or, perhaps, an
insightful
description) for suicide. Other times I wonder whether the medievals
simply
recognized a very real cause of death that modern medicine does not.

James had lived a very full life in a very bad climate, and had indulged
himself excessively in sexual behavior at a time when syphilis was brand
new, very fatal, very rampant. There were all sorts of other ailments.
Porphyria ran in his family.

It beats me, sometimes, how anyone lived to 30 before Louis Pasteur's day.
All sorts of things could and did kill everybody.

Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsarisborn@hotmail.com

Yes, syphilis was brand new. King James V of Scotland died in 1542. It
has been conclusively established that syphilis did not exist in
Europe until after Columbus returned from America in 1492.

STDs were referred to in Babylon and seem to have at least a 4,000 year
history. I have seen this sort of claptrap <joke> before, and always wonder
at it - and wonder what happened to the middle ages, which were documented
sufficiently for their to be no doubt whatever.

Phil Innes

By digging
up old skeletons, it has been established that the American Indians
has syphilis prior to 1492 and Europeans did not. Syphilis swept
Europe as an epidemic killing millions in the early 1500s. I believe
that this is what brought on the Protestant Reformation and the
Puritan Ethic. Apparently, free love reigned in Europe until Columbus
and his men returned from Ameica.

The Europeans believed at that time that they had gotten syphilis from
America, and it has now been proven that they were right.

King James V of Scotland was married twice and had at least ten
different mistresses that we know of and probably some that we do not
know of. We know that he had at least ten mistresses because he had at
least one child by each of them. Obviously, he was a prime candidate
for syphilis.

Sam Sloan
http://www.ishipress.com

Gjest

Re: CO Correction? Early Darcy line of Nocton, Lincs

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 mai 2007 12:39:50

On 15 Mai, 12:25, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:
CP Vol IV, p 50 with a minor correction in Vol XIV has:

(c) Ch. Inq. p. m., Hen. III, file 30, no. 12. This Philip had livery of his
father's lands, 16 Oct. 1254 (they had been placed in his keeping, 6 Feb.
1253/4, his father being old and infirm), being s. and h. of Norman d'Arcy (by
Agnes, his wife), s. and h. of Thomas (aged 18 in 1186 [Vol XIV s/b 1185] d.
1206, leaving a widow, Joan), s. and h. of Thomas, who d. 2 July i 1180 (by
Aline, his wife, who d. 1183), s. and h. of Thomas, s. and h. of Robert (living
I1130), s. and h. of Norman d'Areci (living 1115), the Domesday lord of
Nocton, Coningsby, Dunston, Stallingborougb, Cawkwell, &c., or, perhaps, his son.
The barony was held of the King in chief by the service of 2 or 2 1/2
knights' fees. (Pipe Rolls, 31 Hen.I, p. 112 ; 26 Hen. II, p. 58: Lindsey Survey,
1115-18, pluries: Rot. de Dom., pp. 1, 2, 8: Fine Rolls, 7 Joh., mm. 7, 5;
38 Hen. III, m. 2: Patent .Roll, 37-38 Hen. III, p. 1, m. 10: Charter Roll, 29
Edw. I, m. 7: Monasticon, vol. vi, p. 342).

Adrian


Many thanks, Adrian. There is clearly conflict between CP and DD (and
Dugdale) on this.

Cheers, Michael

Gjest

Re: Bluet marriage of Isabel de Beaumont

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 mai 2007 12:49:02

Have you looked at the Public Records Office A2A Web pages?

Have a look at the bottom of the page at:

http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxs ... esheet=xsl\
A2A_com.xsl&keyword=bluet&properties=0601


Also their file
"SANFORD FAMILY OF NYMEHEAD, PERSONAL AND ESTATE PAPERS
Catalogue Ref. DD\SF"
Has quite a few Bluet hits which may be of interest, although I have not
studied this page.

By the way, you may find these pages easier to follow by clicking the
Catalogue if full option at the top of the page.

Adrian


In a message dated 15/05/2007 04:02:09 GMT Standard Time, jamin@millcomm.com
writes:
Do you know if the Bluet family has been thoroughly researched? I have been
able to find only one record of a William Bluet, father of Elizabeth. The
History of Parliament (Wedgwood) says Elizabeth married John FitzJames (1443
- 1510, the son of John FitzJames and Alice Newburgh), but gives nothing
further on William, nor on his Bluet connections.

Any suggestions?

Thank you.

Thomas Hertzel

Gjest

Re: CO Correction? Early Darcy line of Nocton, Lincs

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 mai 2007 13:29:02

CP Vol IV, p 50 with a minor correction in Vol XIV has:

(c) Ch. Inq. p. m., Hen. III, file 30, no. 12. This Philip had livery of his
father's lands, 16 Oct. 1254 (they had been placed in his keeping, 6 Feb.
1253/4, his father being old and infirm), being s. and h. of Norman d'Arcy (by
Agnes, his wife), s. and h. of Thomas (aged 18 in 1186 [Vol XIV s/b 1185] d.
1206, leaving a widow, Joan), s. and h. of Thomas, who d. 2 July i 1180 (by
Aline, his wife, who d. 1183), s. and h. of Thomas, s. and h. of Robert (living
I1130), s. and h. of Norman d'Areci (living 1115), the Domesday lord of
Nocton, Coningsby, Dunston, Stallingborougb, Cawkwell, &c., or, perhaps, his son.
The barony was held of the King in chief by the service of 2 or 2 1/2
knights' fees. (Pipe Rolls, 31 Hen.I, p. 112 ; 26 Hen. II, p. 58: Lindsey Survey,
1115-18, pluries: Rot. de Dom., pp. 1, 2, 8: Fine Rolls, 7 Joh., mm. 7, 5;
38 Hen. III, m. 2: Patent .Roll, 37-38 Hen. III, p. 1, m. 10: Charter Roll, 29
Edw. I, m. 7: Monasticon, vol. vi, p. 342).

Adrian



In a message dated 15/05/2007 09:00:39 GMT Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
According to a post here back in 2000, Complete Peerage, Vol IV, p 50
et seq, gives the following pedigree for the early Darcy family of
Nocton:

(1) Norman Darcy, ff 1086-1115
(2) Robert Darcy, ff 1130
(3) Thomas Darcy
(4) Thomas Darcy, d 1180; married Aline
(5) Thomas Darcy, died 1206; married Joan
(6) Norman Darcy, married Agnes.

This is largely mirrored by the article in Burke's Peerage, 107th
edition, Vol I, p 1026,sub Darcy de Knayth, except that this alleges
additionally that:

(4) Thomas Darcy died 2 July 1180; married Aline (d 1183), daughter
of Ralph Deincourt

and

(5) Thomas Darcy born circa 1168, died circa 1206

Keats-Rohan (Domesday Descendants, p 286) has a slightly different
pedigree, removing one generation thus:

(1) Norman Darcy, ff 1086-c1118
(2) Robert Darcy, died between 1148 and 1160; married Alice de Calz
(3) Thomas Darcy, d 1180; married Alina or Alice (d 1183), daughter of
Ralph Deincourt I
(4) Thomas Darcy, aged 18 at his father's death, so born c1162; died
1208 (sic)

i.e. she shows two Thomas Darcys, not three. This version is
corroborated by Paul Dalton's article in the ODNB on the family, which
does not cite Keats-Rohan but possibly relies on Sanders Baronies
(which KR also cites).

Curiously, Dugdale's Baronage of 1675, p 369, also shows only two
Thomas Darcys.

I don't have CP to hand - does it show three or two Thomas Darcys, and
if the former, does it cite sources?

MA-R

Graham Milne

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Graham Milne » 15 mai 2007 15:25:28

Exactly, the freemen were peers. All the tenants in chief of a given
superior were peers of eachother. The king's tenants in chief were peers of
the realm. This word was later used to refer to people who were not
necessarily peers in the correct, feudal sense, that is peers in the modern
sense. 'Peer' does indeed mean 'equal'. The 'property qualification' was
simply to hold land in equal degree.

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:f2ascm$3fi$1@mouse.otenet.gr...
Graham Milne wrote:

Try reading Magna Carta, clause 39, which states that: 'No freeman shall
be seized, or imprisoned, or dispossessed, or outlawed, or in any way
destroyed; nor will we condemn him, nor will we commit him to prison,
excepting by the legal judgement of his peers, or by the laws of the
land.'

This is the origin of the later term, peer, but in this context, "his
peers" does not mean lords, barons, knights or otherwise. It means a jury
of like freemen, his peers. But in order to serve on a jury, one had to
have a property qualification


A tenant in chief simply means an immediate tenant. i.e. someone holding
directly of someone else.

No, it did not. A tenant-in-chief was one who held land directly from the
king. Otherwise, everybody was a tenant-in-chief of someone.


'Reports from the Lords Committees touching the Dignity of a Peer of the
Realm' (1819) states (p. 54) that:
'the records of the reign of King John seem to give strong ground for
supposing that all the King's tenants in chief by military tenure, if not
all tenants in chief, were at one time deemed necessary members of the
common councils of the realm, when summoned for extraordinary purposes,
and especially for the purpose of obtaining a grant of any extraordinary
aid to the king.'

As I said earlier, certain landholders were collectors of taxes and it is
these men who went to Parliament (the forerunners of today's MPs), not
every landholder or tenant-in-chief.

Renia

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Renia » 15 mai 2007 15:43:53

Graham Milne wrote:
Exactly, the freemen were peers. All the tenants in chief of a given
superior were peers of eachother. The king's tenants in chief were peers
of the realm.

No, they were not. They were each others' peers (or social equals) who
all lived in the same realm. If you use the term "peers of the realm",
you suggest an official title and that was not the case.


This word was later used to refer to people who were not
necessarily peers in the correct, feudal sense, that is peers in the
modern sense. 'Peer' does indeed mean 'equal'.

No, the word comes from the Latin "parem" which is the accusative of
"par", meaning equal. You have heard of "on a par", I take it. That
these medieval landholders were social equals later developed into
"Peers of the Realm", or the nobility, not the other way round.

The 'property
qualification' was simply to hold land in equal degree.

They did not necessarily hold land in equal degree. They just held land
and were thus landholders and, as such, peers (social equals).

The Highlander

Re: Royal Family of Europe

Legg inn av The Highlander » 15 mai 2007 15:44:04

On Tue, 15 May 2007 11:28:51 GMT, "Chess One" <innes8@verizon.net>
wrote:

"Sam Sloan" <sloan@ishipress.com> wrote in message
news:464926a3.417043156@ca.news.verio.net...


Sam Sloan
http://www.ishipress.com

Stare-mah-sheh, Mohammad Ismail!


I have been following your career with interest for some years and I
must compliment you on your splendid book "Chinese Chess for
beginners" which I think is the best instruction book of Xiang Qi that
I have ever read. I have it sitting in front of me as I type and when
I read your post, your email address leapt off the page at me.

I too have met and dined with Liu Guobin and Lu Qin, the Cantonese
Xiang Qi champion. Like you, I found Liu Guobin a fascinating man and
one for who I have greatest respect for his courage and dedication in
hiding and preserving the icons of Xiang Qi during the Cultural
Revolution at the risk of his freedom and probably his life.

I also played Xiang Qi against Shan Xia Li, the former Number Four
Chinese Chess champion from Shanghai just before Tiananmen Square, who
beat me comprehensively and later taught me some of the simpler
end-games, from which a warm friendship developed to the point that we
were at the point of contemplating marriage when the events of
Tiananmen Square brought everything to a halt as she was unable to
leave China and I was assured by various Chinese officials that Hell
would freeze over before I would be allowed to settle in that
marvellous city as I was correctly identified as the descendant of
opium traders in south China and Hong Kong in the 1800s and the Chiese
have long memories, believing that the sins of the fathers should be
visited on the children! Indeed, there is still a street in Causeway
Bay, Hong Kong named after a member of my family, "Baht Tak San" Gaii
who was Taipan of Jardine-Matheson. I now live in Canada, where I also
have family connections, the Earl of Minto who was Governor-General
here during the 1890s.

However, that's all by the bye, but I was delighted to see your name
appear here as both of us have led what might be described as
chequered careers and I'm happy to know that you too are alive and
well and sincerely hope that your problems with the custody of Shamema
Honzagool Sloan have been laid to rest and that her career is
proceeding as you would have hoped.

I don't want to create a tamaashah, but simply felt I would like to
wish you "Salaam aleikum!"

Pa makhe da kha - Ameen sera!

Michael Paterson, aka The Highlander.

Graham Milne

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Graham Milne » 15 mai 2007 18:07:50

I don't suggest an official title. Don't try to put words into my mouth. It
is a matter of fact. They were peers and they were peers of the kingdom
(realm) as tenants in chief of the king. You really need to go back to
basics (i.e. an understanding of the feudal contract). When you have done
this, let me know.

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:f2cgv0$nbk$1@mouse.otenet.gr...
Graham Milne wrote:
Exactly, the freemen were peers. All the tenants in chief of a given
superior were peers of eachother. The king's tenants in chief were peers
of the realm.

No, they were not. They were each others' peers (or social equals) who all
lived in the same realm. If you use the term "peers of the realm", you
suggest an official title and that was not the case.


This word was later used to refer to people who were not necessarily
peers in the correct, feudal sense, that is peers in the modern sense.
'Peer' does indeed mean 'equal'.

No, the word comes from the Latin "parem" which is the accusative of
"par", meaning equal. You have heard of "on a par", I take it. That these
medieval landholders were social equals later developed into "Peers of the
Realm", or the nobility, not the other way round.

The 'property qualification' was simply to hold land in equal degree.

They did not necessarily hold land in equal degree. They just held land
and were thus landholders and, as such, peers (social equals).

Renia

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Renia » 15 mai 2007 18:37:07

Graham Milne wrote:

I don't suggest an official title. Don't try to put words into my mouth.
It is a matter of fact. They were peers and they were peers of the
kingdom (realm) as tenants in chief of the king. You really need to go
back to basics (i.e. an understanding of the feudal contract). When you
have done this, let me know.

I'm crossposting this to a more relevant newsgroup, soc.history.medieval

There are historians there who would actually ask you to declare your
understanding of the feudal contract and they would go further and say
there was no such thing.

If you are now saying what I was saying all along, that there was no
such official title or no such official status as "peer of the realm" in
medieval England, then why are you making such a big issue of the
phrase? It is no more relevant than "butcher of the realm" or "peasant
of the realm".

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:f2cgv0$nbk$1@mouse.otenet.gr...

Graham Milne wrote:

Exactly, the freemen were peers. All the tenants in chief of a given
superior were peers of eachother. The king's tenants in chief were
peers of the realm.


No, they were not. They were each others' peers (or social equals) who
all lived in the same realm. If you use the term "peers of the realm",
you suggest an official title and that was not the case.


This word was later used to refer to people who were not necessarily
peers in the correct, feudal sense, that is peers in the modern
sense. 'Peer' does indeed mean 'equal'.


No, the word comes from the Latin "parem" which is the accusative of
"par", meaning equal. You have heard of "on a par", I take it. That
these medieval landholders were social equals later developed into
"Peers of the Realm", or the nobility, not the other way round.

The 'property qualification' was simply to hold land in equal degree.


They did not necessarily hold land in equal degree. They just held
land and were thus landholders and, as such, peers (social equals).


Gjest

Re: Question about a knight

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 mai 2007 19:49:02

In a message dated 5/15/2007 10:20:43 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
graham@gmilne.demon.co.uk writes:

Wrong! If you are not aware of the fact that most earls are called 'Lord x'
(as in, say, 'Lord Leicester' for the Earl of Leicester) then you merely
reveal the depth of your ignorance. Only a few earls are called 'Earl x' (as
in, say, Earl Spencer').


Current usage is not relevant to this newsgroup.
Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

WJhonson

Re: Fw: Clues from Lists-Indexes, vol. 202 (Chanc. Proc. Sup

Legg inn av WJhonson » 15 mai 2007 21:53:48

<<In a message dated 05/15/07 12:01:04 Pacific Standard Time, starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
p. 45
--Maurice Blunt, Richard Hill and Thomas Graye of London,
clothworkers, William Smyth and Roger Powell of London, linendrapers,
James Parrott of London, mercer, Edward Draper and Christopher
Robinson of London, girdlers
--Hamon Pickeringe, Leon[?ard] Hollingworth and Edward Shuttleworth
--Debts claimed from estate of third party against defendants as
executor and overseers [1601; Lincs., London]

I think this Edward Draper, girdler, was probably the father of Susan
Draper, wife of Ralph Fogge of New England. >>



And perhaps the Maurice Blount of London is that same one who married Dorothy Claypoole daughter of Sir James Claypoole, Knt of Northborough, by his wife Joan Henson.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Royal Family of Europe

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2007 00:09:03

Dear Sam and others,
I find it doubtful that James V committed
suicide on purpose. Given his genetic background with both parents James IV and
Margaret Tudor having ancestries full of people apt to fall into towering
rages... He may have had one and died of a stroke or struck something so
ferociously He did fatal damage to himself.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

samsloan

Re: New DNA Tests done on the Hemings-Jefferson Controversy

Legg inn av samsloan » 16 mai 2007 00:58:45

New DNA Tests done on the Hemings-Jefferson Controversy

Because of the controversies surrounding the 1998 DNA tests that were
made on one descendant of Sally Hemings and on five relatives of
Thomas Jefferson, a new set of DNA tests have been done in 2007.

In 1998 when the first tests were made, DNA testing of this sort was
still in its infancy. The tests were only done on eight alleles. Some
of these alleles are no longer considered to be useful for testing.
Nowadays, as many as 67 alleles are tested. Thus, new tests were in
order.

In the original 1998 tests, five descendants of Field Jefferson, the
uncle of Thomas Jefferson, were tested along with one descendant of
Eston Hemings Jefferson, the youngest son of Sally Hemings, plus five
descendants of Tom Woodson and three descendants of the Carr Brothers.

The five Woodson descendants were tested because the family of Minnie
Shumate Woodson claimed that Tom Woodson was the son of Thomas
Jefferson and that he was the "Yellow Tom" who, according to James
Thompson Callender, bore "a striking though sable resemblance to the
president himself".

Descendants of the Carr Brothers were tested because it had long been
alleged that the Carr Brothers were the real fathers of Sally's
children. The basis for this was that their father, Dabney Carr, was
the brother-in-law of Thomas Jefferson, being married to Jefferson's
sister. After Dabney Carr died at an early age, Thomas Jefferson
helped care for the Carr Brothers and they grew up at or near
Monticello. Thus, they had the opportunity of access to Sally at the
time that she bore her five children.

The relatives of Thomas Jefferson and the descendant of Eston Hemings
were tested to achieve resolution of the controversy that has been
burning since 1802 concerning allegations that Sally Hemings was the
concubine of Thomas Jefferson and that he was the father of her five
children.

The result of the tests were that the five Woodson descendants and the
three Carr descendants were completely excluded from being the
relatives of Eston Hemings. Their DNA types were completely different,
excluding any possibility of a relationship with Jefferson.

On the other hand, the DNA of the descendant of Eston Hemings was a
perfect match with all five of the Jefferson descendants, except that
one Jefferson descendant had a mutation of one digit, a change from 15
to 16, on DYS392 . Such small changes are well within the normal range
of mutation over the passage of time.

The result of these tests was the publication of an article in Nature
magazine entitled "Jefferson Fathered Slave's Last Child".

This article set off a tremendous firestorm of controversy, as
detractors pointed out that the tests did not prove that Jefferson was
the father. They simply failed to eliminate Jefferson as a possible
father. Somebody else with the same DNA, such as his brother Randolph,
could also be the father.

However, the DNA tests revealed something completely unexpected, which
was that Thomas Jefferson did not have a DNA type typical of white
Americans or Europeans. His DNA was something completely different,
something that had never been encountered before. Something totally
unknown.

A new DNA type was created just for the purpose of classifying Thomas
Jefferson's DNA. He was assigned DNA haplotype K2. Since type K is
deemed to be close to one of the original haplotypes, this means that
Thomas Jefferson was considered to have DNA close to that of the
original modern man, from whom all men alive today are descended. That
so called Y-Chromosome Adam is believed to have lived 60,000 to 90,000
years ago in Africa.

New DNA tests have been done in 2007 for two purposes:

1. To confirm using modern methods the results of the 1998 tests which
found a DNA match between male relatives of Thomas Jefferson and one
descendant of Sally Hemings and

2. To determine the origin of Thomas Jefferson and to determine
whether his ancestry originated from European, African, Middle
Eastern, Native American or Space Invaders.

I have the results of these new DNA tests and I am in the process of
translating them into layman's terms so that stupid people can
understand them.

Sam Sloan

samsloan

Re: The Slave Children of Thomas Jefferson

Legg inn av samsloan » 16 mai 2007 02:36:23

I have been researching the literature on the DNA of Thomas Jefferson.
I find one statement with which I disagree. They write:

"Despite its general rarity, there remains a sizeable subpopulation
in which Thomas Jefferson's Y chromosome could be frequent-all men
named Jefferson. This is because both Y chromosomes and surnames are
patrilinearly inherited, and a correlation exists between Y haplotypes
and surnames (Sykes and Irven, 2000; King et al., 2006; McEvoy and
Bradley, 2006)."

They may not be familiar with a problem which we Americans face, which
is that most of the time when we try to research our family history,
we encounter a brick wall when we try to go back before the first
ancestor who arrived in America. We can almost never find out who his
parents were.

Probably the most common reason for this that he changed his name. For
example, if a German named Karl comes to America he will call himself
Charles.

This is especially true when the immigrant is from a non-English
speaking country.

In the data, the closest match to the DNA of Thomas Jefferson is an
Egyptian man, who is one step away. The second closest match in a tie
between another Egyptian man and a Iberian man. A few steps further
away are a bunch of Somali men who constitute the largest group.

The closest European man is many steps away, so far away that I cannot
count the steps.

Nevertheless, they keep searching for men named Jefferson.

However, if an Egyptian man named Abu Jaffar or Abdul Jaffar came to
America, he would probably change his name to Jefferson, because that
is what Abu Jaffar means. Abu Jaffar means the Son of Jaffar.

Abu Jaffar and Abdul Jaffar are very common names in Egypt, among the
most common names, whereas the name Jefferson is relatively rare even
in England. It is common in America only because Thomas Jefferson had
187 slaves.

Therefore, I feel that they should completely forget about trying to
DNA match our Thomas Jefferson with anybody in England named
Jefferson.

Very Truly yours,

Sam Sloan

WJhonson

Re: Mr Weston a kinsman of Michael Lowe of Lichfield

Legg inn av WJhonson » 16 mai 2007 03:59:53

Today I've been editing the collection of Bagot family papers at
http://shakespeare.folger.edu/other/htm ... html#N1720


Very useful.
Perhaps someone could help me on one point.

Michael Lowe of Tamhorn near Lichfield, had at least one daughter Catherine Lowe who married about 1594 to Anthony Bagot, Gent of Colton, second son of Richard Bagot (d 2 Feb 1596/7) by his wife Mary Saunders

This marriage is mentioned here
http://shakespeare.folger.edu/other/html/dfobagot.html
Bagot, Richard
L.a.80
Addressee unnamed. Ca. 1594 (revised date). Thanks for furthering a motion of marriage between Anthony Bagot and Katherine Lowe; Anthony will have £40 a year, and she will have a new house that Bagot has just built. Incomplete..

but also here
Essex, Robert Devereux, Earl of
L.a.473
To Richard Bagot. The Court. May 6, 1594. Has written to Mr. Lowe, a kinsman of Mr. Weston's, proposing a marriage of Lowe's daughter to Anthony Bagot. Both father and daughter are willing; urges Bagot to agree to favorable terms.

I feel that the Mr Weston here referred may be that Sir Simon Weston who is also called "of Lichfield", but I cannot link the Weston family to the Lowe family.

Can anyone else?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: The Slave Children of Thomas Jefferson

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 16 mai 2007 04:25:00

"samsloan" <samhsloan@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1179279383.213636.164130@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

However, if an Egyptian man named Abu Jaffar or Abdul Jaffar came to
America, he would probably change his name to Jefferson, because that
is what Abu Jaffar means. Abu Jaffar means the Son of Jaffar.

No it doesn't - Jaffar's son would be called Ibn Jaffar.

In Egypt and Palestine Abu Jaffar indicated the father of Jaffar, and would
be used for someone of a different name after his first-born son was called
Jaffar.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: New DNA Tests done on the Hemings-Jefferson Controversy

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2007 11:57:36

On May 16, 12:58 am, samsloan <samhsl...@gmail.com> wrote:

New DNA Tests done on the Hemings-Jefferson Controversy

Because of the controversies surrounding the 1998 DNA tests that were
made on one descendant of Sally Hemings and on five relatives of
Thomas Jefferson, a new set of DNA tests have been done in 2007.

I have the results of these new DNA tests and I am in the process of
translating them into layman's terms so that stupid people can
understand them.

Well, if they were looking for someone who could do stupid, they've
certainly come to the right person.

Gjest

Re: Mr Weston a kinsman of Michael Lowe of Lichfield

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2007 16:41:15

On May 16, 3:59 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Today I've been editing the collection of Bagot family papers athttp://shakespeare.folger.edu/other/h ... html#N1720

Very useful.
Perhaps someone could help me on one point.

Michael Lowe of Tamhorn near Lichfield, had at least one daughter Catherine Lowe who married about 1594 to Anthony Bagot, Gent of Colton, second son of Richard Bagot (d 2 Feb 1596/7) by his wife Mary Saunders

This marriage is mentioned herehttp://shakespeare.folger.edu/other ... bagot.html
Bagot, Richard
L.a.80
Addressee unnamed. Ca. 1594 (revised date). Thanks for furthering a motion of marriage between Anthony Bagot and Katherine Lowe; Anthony will have £40 a year, and she will have a new house that Bagot has just built. Incomplete.

but also here
Essex, Robert Devereux, Earl of
L.a.473
To Richard Bagot. The Court. May 6, 1594. Has written to Mr. Lowe, a kinsman of Mr. Weston's, proposing a marriage of Lowe's daughter to Anthony Bagot. Both father and daughter are willing; urges Bagot to agree to favorable terms.

I feel that the Mr Weston here referred may be that Sir Simon Weston who is also called "of Lichfield", but I cannot link the Weston family to the Lowe family.


Your identification of Mr Weston with Sir Simon is possible, but I
note there are other candidates amongst the Bagot papers (eg John
Weston, Sir Richard Weston, as well as Sir Simon himself).

I presume you noted this entry:

Heton, Martin (Dean of Winchester, later Bishop of Ely)

L.a.539

To Richard Bagot. Winchester. June 18, 1594. Certain persons having
complained of the marriage of Katherine Lowe to Anthony Bagot instead
of to Simon Weston, Heton asks Bagot to make it appear to the world
that she is well bestowed upon A. Bagot; he says he was chiefly
instrument in the marriage.

As you may know, Sir Simon was an MP - my guess would be that he was
knighted during the rush of accolades at the time of James I's
accession and coming south. There is no ODNB article, but there may
be something in the relevant volume of the History of Parliament, if
you have access to these. Additionally, there is a portrait of him of
1608 which describes him as "aet 43", so a likely birthdate of 1565
may be posited; the catalogue says he was "brother of Lord Treasurer
Portland". This is Sir Richard Weston (c1577-1635), knighted in 1603,
and created Lord Weston in 1628 and Earl of Portland in 1633 (ODNB).
Sir Richard were sons of Sir Jerome Weston (d 1603) by his first wife,
Mary Cave (d c1593), daughter and coheiress of Anthony Cave of
Chicheley. The problem with this is Sir Simon's apparent birthdate of
circa 1565: ODNB says Sir Richard was baptised 1577, and was the elder
son of Sir Jerome's first marriage. Sir Jerome in turn was son of Sir
Richard Weston (d 1572), who was married three times (see ODNB article
for him).

MA-R

Gjest

Re:Clues from Lists-Indexes, vol. 202 (Chanc. Proc. Suppleme

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2007 17:39:02

Dear Colleagues,
If there is a person who infests this group with OT posts, and who abuses
people who complain about him, could we please just ignore him?
I greatly respect Peter Stewart, Michael Andrewes-Reading, Renia and others
who have complained about people like him. But surely it would be best to
deprive him of the oxygen of publicity?
MM

WJhonson

Re: New DNA Tests done on the Hemings-Jefferson Controversy

Legg inn av WJhonson » 16 mai 2007 20:55:04

<<In a message dated 05/15/07 17:00:53 Pacific Standard Time, samhsloan@gmail.com writes:
2. To determine the origin of Thomas Jefferson and to determine
whether his ancestry originated from European, African, Middle
Eastern, Native American or Space Invaders. >>


I will be shortly posting my analysis for why Thomas Jefferson is most likely a mass delusion created by collective repression of guilt associated with post-Renaissance religious mania.

Will Johnson

The Thill Group, Inc

Re: Leo van de Pas - Speedy Recovery

Legg inn av The Thill Group, Inc » 16 mai 2007 21:45:53

Dear Leo,
Echoing other's sentiments, Wish you a speedy recovery and return!!
Becky
Dallas, TX, USA
ttg-inc@tx.rr.com

"Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might
as well dance !"

Gjest

Re: Leo van de Pas - Speedy Recovery

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 mai 2007 22:44:02

Dear Leo,
I wish to echo Ian`s sentiments in wishing You a speedy and
complete recovery.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: Mr Weston a kinsman of Michael Lowe of Lichfield

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mai 2007 00:28:51

On 16 Mai, 03:59, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Today I've been editing the collection of Bagot family papers athttp://shakespeare.folger.edu/other/h ... html#N1720

Very useful.
Perhaps someone could help me on one point.

Michael Lowe of Tamhorn near Lichfield, had at least one daughter Catherine Lowe who married about 1594 to Anthony
Bagot, Gent of Colton, second son of Richard Bagot (d 2 Feb 1596/7) by his wife Mary Saunders

According to VCH Staffordshire, vol 14, sub Fisherwick, Michael Lowe
of Tamhorn was the son of a Lichfield mercer, and the son-in-law of
Simon Biddulph, also a Lichfield mercer; Lowe was a member of the
Inner Temple and a chief clerk of the Court of King's Bench. Perhaps
the Christian name Simon is significant here.

Arsandri

RE: PONS DE LEON - Sicilian branch

Legg inn av Arsandri » 17 mai 2007 00:30:30

I will be gratefully for any information and genealogy about this
Sicilian branch of Ponce de Leon.
Thanks once again
Arsandri

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Count Baldoni
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:54 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: PONS DE LEON - Sicilian branch


On May 16, 6:12 pm, "Arsandri" <arsan...@katamail.com> wrote:
In my researches I found this marriage between:

don Francesco IOPPOLO e VENTIMIGLIA dei conti di Nasso dei duchi di
Sinagra da Messina

and

donna Giovanna PONCE DE LEON

both living in the second half of XVI century in Sicily.

I'd like to discover something about the family of this Giovanna Ponce

de Leon, to understand if she could be related to the famous Spanish
family or whit some branch of the same family that moved to Sicily.

Did someone know something about the existence of a Sicilian branch of

Pons or Ponce de Leon family?

Thanks in advance

Arsandri


Some of my ancestors married into this family, however they (Ponce de
Leon) are not on my Christmas card list.

My family were exiled to a rock in the Med because of those dogs.

What do you wish to know amici ?

Count Baldoni


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