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WJhonson

Re: Quebec nobility

Legg inn av WJhonson » 02 mai 2007 00:02:55

Is this Marguerite LeGardeur related to that Catherine LeGardeur who married Charles d'Ailleboust, Sieur des Musseaux on 16 Sep 1652 in Quebec City ?

Thanks
Will Johnson


In a message dated 04/29/07 22:40:35 Pacific Standard Time, rygagne@hotmail.com writes:
On Apr 29, 11:20 pm, BV <bvana...@hotmail.com> wrote:
In the Leneuf ancestry , there is a Marguerite LeGardeur who is the
mother of Mathieu Leneuf . Has she been connected to the other noble
LeGardeur family ? Bernard

Good day Bernard,

The answer to your question is no. If you look at the genealogy of
the LeGardeur who settled in New-France, some branches are far less
documented than others and there is obviously a possibility that
Marguerite LeGardeur was part of one of these branches, who could have
been protestant. In that case, when Jacques LeNeuf de la Poterie
married also a LeGardeur, he would have been related 3 to 4 degree or
something like this. The other possibility is that she belonged to a
different family or from a much more remote branch of the family. To
my knowledge, nobody went to Caen to settle this issue and it is
impossible even to know if this issue could be solved with the
existing documents in the Archives. Until John Dulong first published
the names of the real parents of Jacques and Mathieu LeNeuf, there was
a genealogy of our LeNeuf family based on the one found in d'Hozier's
book at the Archives Nationales du Québec that many people was wrongly
following. My point is that nobody can say with certainty that
Marguerite LeGardeur was closely related or not to the LeGardeur we
know. I know there are theories on some websites, but they remain
only theories.
Have a good day, R.-Yves Gagné


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John P. Ravilious

Re: CP Addition: Elizabeth de Tiliol, wife of Anthony, Lord

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 02 mai 2007 01:30:56

Dear Pat,

Joan de Greystoke was a daughter of Thomas de Greystoke
(also called Thomas fitz William) and his wife Christian de
Vipont. Reference to her, as her son's mother, can be found
in Complete Peerage (CP V:514) and the Victoria County
History for the East Riding of Yorkshire (VCH East Riding
III:164-170 [sub _Fangfoss_]). She is currently shown in
Leo's fine website, Genealogics.org., under #I00451657.

The timeframe of your second query (1322) is concurrent
with Sir Peter de Tiliol's career, but given the varied
spellings and de Tilliol's primary locus in the West, I'm not
sure if this is a reference to the same individual. I've not
seen the 'Tilliott' spelling before. Of course that is proof
of nothing, and we well know the county boundaries were not
hermetic seals.....

As to your last query, the earlier post provides the
answer. In the AT you will find Richard de Lucy as #18, and
Ada de Morville his wife at #19. They were the parents of
Alice de Lucy (#9), wife of Alan de Multon and mother of
Thomas de Lucy (#4), lord of Papcastle, who took his mother's
name.

Cheers,

John




On May 1, 10:49�am, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
John,
Could you identify Joan de Greystoke? Harrison's History of Yorkshire has the follwwing:
"1322 William de Vipont, Lord of Alston, etc., who, with Peter Tilliott and others were  defendants in a plea at the suit of Henry son of Hugh  de Ravensworth for forcibly entering plaintiff's house at Dent in Richmondshire..." Is this the same as your Peter Tilliol? And one further question, if I may, could this Lucy family be related to the Richard de Lucy who married Ada, co-heiress of Hugh de Morville of Burgh.
Thank you for posting this information.
Pat





From: "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com
Date: 2007/04/30 Mon PM 10:11:27 EDT
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: CP Addition: Elizabeth de Tiliol, wife of Anthony, Lord Lucy (d. 1343)

Monday, 30 April, 2007

Hello All,

     The account in Complete Peerage concerning Anthony de Lucy, Lord
 Lucy (d. bef 10 June 1343) identifies his wife only as Elizabeth.

     No direct evidence as to her identity has been found to date,
 but two secondary sources identify her as Elizabeth de Tiliol (or
 Tilliolf), daughter of Sir Robert de Tiliol of Scaleby, Cumberland,
 and his wife Maud de Lasceles (widow of Sir William de Hilton of
 Swine and Winestead, co. Yorks.):

  1. In a pedigree of the Tilliol family, Rev. James Wilson
     shows one daughter of Sir Robert de Tilliol and his wife
     Maud as ' Elizabeth wife of Anthony de Lucy ' [1].

  2. In 1671, Sir Daniel Fleming of Rydal wrote concerning
     the "Tylliolf" lords of Scaleby: ' Geoffrey had issue Robert
     Tylliolf who died 18 Ed. 2nd, he purchased the third part
     of Levington, and had issue Peter or Piers and a daughter
     Elizabeth wife of Anthony Lucy' [2].

     We certainly find Sir Peter de Tiliol and Sir Anthony de Lucy
 closely associated, including letters of protection granted on
 8 June 1322 at Haddlesey for ' Andrew de Hartcla, earl of Carlisle,
 staying in the Marches of Scotland on the king's service ' as well
 as for those individuals (including John de Haverington, Anthony de
 Lucy, Ralph de Nevill, Ranulf de Dacre, Peter de Tilliolf and
 others) ' staying in his company ' [3].

     Elizabeth de Tiliol was evidently named for her maternal
 grandmother, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir William fitz Ralph, of
 Grimthorpe and Hildreskelf, co. York (d. aft June 1269) and his
 wife Joan de Greystoke.  This identification provides some modest
 increase in the known ancestry of the Tilliols, as well as the
 Lords Lucy (incl. the later Lords Lucy of the Melton family) and
 their descendants of the Pierrepont, Lowe and other families.

     I will post a limited AT for Elizabeth de Tiliol in a
 subsequent post.  Should anyone have any further relevant
 documentation, comment or criticism, that would be most
 welcome.

     Cheers,

                          John *

NOTES

 [1] Rev. James Wilson, Some Extinct Cumberland Families: The
     Tilliols.  The Ancestor: A Quarterly Review of County and
     Family History, Heraldry and Antiquities (London: Archibald
     Constable & Co. Ltd., Jan. 1903), Num. IV, p. 100.

 [2] Sir G. F. Duckett, Bart., ed., Description of the County of
     Westmoreland, by Sir Daniel Fleming of Rydal, A.D. 1671
     (London: Bernard Quaritch; Kendal: T. Wilson, 1882), p. 154.

 [3] CPR 16 Edw. II, p. 130, mem. 9.

 * John P. Ravilious

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WJhonson

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Eve de Clavering, wife of Sir

Legg inn av WJhonson » 02 mai 2007 02:07:14

As I'm doing this silly task of going through the details of her life with an eye to finding something that isn't there, I think it might be wise to point out yet another discrepancy.

Thanks to Millerfairfield who has perhaps unknowingly supplied a missing bit.

We already know that CPR E2V1p26-7 14 Dec 1307 is supposed to err in stating that Thomas de Audley, "son and heir of Nicholas" died unmarried. I've already pointed out how odd it is that Hugh le Despencer comes back for another heir of this line, which of course would make perfect sense if in fact Thomas did die unmarried. Then Hugh's action here makes sense. Hugh's action could also make sense if Thomas was married to Hugh's daughter as intended but had no children. In that case Hugh's family still wouldn't get Thomas' inheritence and so Hugh would want the next heir to ensure this.

Note that the 14 Dec 1307 also states that Nicholas the one Hugh is being granted now, is "brother and heir of Thomas".

But now in the Close Rolls 2E2 we have a problem. See
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... lavering1T

Where it's stated that Thomas de Audley, the late husband of this same Eve did have a son and in fact that son is still living. HA!

Note that this is supposed to be 2E2, thus at least several months after the 1307 CPR cited above. Now what say you.

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Mabel 'filia Willielmi Patrio', wife of Nigel de Mowbray

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 02 mai 2007 02:15:51

Tuesday, 1 May, 2007


Hello All,

In a prior thread, there was discussion concerning the identity
of Mabel, wife of Nigel de Mowbray (d. 1191) and her parentage [1].
Of particular interest, Doug Richardson provided an extract from
Archaeologia Cantiana, which states in part,

"Domesday Book records that Richard, son of William, held
Patrixbourne from Odo, Bishop of Bayeux and half-brother of
William the Conqueror. After that, as Sanders records, the
manor was held by the Patrick family who came from La Lande-
Patry, near Flers in the Calvados region of Normandy. William
Patrick's name appears on deeds in Normandy in the period
1066-83, and Richard was almost certainly his son." [2]

This would appear to provide at least a weak link with the
tenure of Banstead, Surrey, which Mabel (wife of Nigel de
Mowbray) had as her maritagium. The VCH history for Surrey which
covers Banstead states that ' In 1086 Banstead, in Wallington
Hundred, was held by Richard of Odo, Bishop of Bayeux ' [3]. The
account in VCH goes on to state concerning Mabel, "She seems to
have been the daughter of Roger, Earl of Clare", but there seems no
justification for this statement except the theory given therein
(see below) that the 1086 tenant was Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare.

It seems more than probable that the Richard who held
Banstead in 1086 of Bishop Odo of Bayeux was the same Richard,
son of William who held Patrixbourne at the same time. It seems
unlikely that the illustrious Richard fitz Gilbert would have
been identified only as "Richard" in the record concerning
Banstead. Further, there is an interesting (if not marriage-
ending) consanguinity issue with the 'Richard fitz Gilbert'
theory put forward in the VCH account: if Mabel, wife of Nigel
de Mowbray, was a daughter of Roger de Clare, the marriage of
their great-grandson Roger de Mowbray to Roese de Clare (a]
known great-great granddaughter of Roger de Clare) ca. 1270
would have required a dispensation for consanguinity in the
4th and 4th degrees. I am not aware of any dispensation for
this marriage, although this of course does not bar the
possible existence of same.

It now appears more likely that Mabel was in fact the
daughter of William Patrick, who would then have been the
namesake of Mabel's son William de Mowbray. Additional
relevant documentation, comment or criticism on the subject
is of course welcome.

Cheers,

John *



NOTES

[1] J. Ravilious, <Mabel 'filia Willielmi Patrio', wife of Nigel de
Mowbray>, SGM, 9 Nov 2006.

[2] Doug Richardson, <Patrick family of Patrixbourne, Kent>, SGM,
10 Nov 2006, cites "Patrixbourne Church: Medieval Patronage,
Fabric and History" by Mary Berg (Archaeologia Cantiana,
122 (2002): 113-142).

[3] 'Parishes: Banstead', A History of the County of Surrey:
Volume 3 (1911), pp. 252-62. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=42963

This account states in part, but more fully,

' In 1086 Banstead, in Wallington Hundred, was held by
Richard of Odo, Bishop of Bayeux. (fn. 26) Among the
appurtenances of the manor was a house in Southwark worth
40d. (fn. 27) Alnod, when he had held the manor, had had a
demesne house in London, which Adam son of Hubert held of
Odo. (fn. 28) In the time of Henry I Tirel del Maniers gave
the church to the monastery of St. Mary Overy, (fn. 29) but
there is no other proof that he was lord of the manor. It
was held in 1169-70 by Nigel de Mowbray, whose wife Mabel
had received it from her father as her marriage
portion. (fn. 30) She seems to have been the daughter of
Roger, Earl of Clare; it is therefore possible that the
Richard of 1086 was the great Richard of Tonbridge
himself. (fn. 30a) '

Footnotes:

' 27 Ibid. 285-6.
28 Ibid. 302b.
29 Manning and Bray, Hist. of Surr. ii, 582. Rolls in the
King's Court (Pipe R. Soc.), xiv, 42. This roll is, in
places, very illegible, but in view of Manning's deeds
and those concerning Southmerfeld and the Prior of
Southwark (see rectory), there seems no doubt that the
places referred to in the roll (. . . feld
and . . . stud) are Southmerfield and Banstead,
particularly as they are stated to have belonged to
Tirel del Maniers and after to Nigel de Mowbray.
30 Manning and Bray, ut supra; Pipe R. 16 Hen. II (Pipe
R. Soc.), xv, 164.
30a Cott. MS. Cleo. Col. iii, fol. 302. '


* John P. Ravilious

WJhonson

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Eve de Clavering, wife of Sir

Legg inn av WJhonson » 02 mai 2007 02:21:21

Furthermore, since Eve is described as "aged 40" [probably "40 or more"] at the IPM of her mother, I submit that she could not be the mother of this heir of Thomas de Audley her first husband.

So Thomas de Audley her first husband must have had a previous marriage. Could he have actually had a marriage to Hugh le Despencer's daughter who would then have had a son and then died in time for Thomas to next marry Eve ? The timing seems very tight as we know that Thomas de Audley son and heir of Nicholas had to be born exactly between 1286 and 1289,

And then we have the statement that he died a minor and unmarried, while Eva's husband Thomas had a heir who was living at least several months after this above statement. Very curious isn't it.

Rosie Bevan had privately told me that there wasn't another Thomas de Audley running around who could be this first husband of Eva, but I wonder.... could there be another Thomas de Audley ? I'm thinking maybe a brother to Nicholas instead of a son. That would explain quite a few things.

I'm having a hard time thinking that Piers Gaveston had custody of an imaginary son of Thomas and complicity of all the parties in making up a person who never existed. And that Hugh le Despencer would just overlook a heir of his own daughter in grasping after the next heir. Something just doesn't gel here.

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Eve de Clavering, wife of Sir J

Legg inn av wjhonson » 02 mai 2007 03:40:40

Another factor that speaks toward Eve de Clavering's first husband
Thomas de Audley *not* being that minor heir in the custody of Hugh le
Despencer is the following

CPR E2V1 page 144 - Membrane 19
1308 Nov 10 - Westminster
"License for Katherine, late the wife of Nicholas de Aldithelegh, to
grant all lands which she holds in dower of the inheritence of
Nicholas de Aldithelegh, her son, to her said son, charged with a
yearly payment to herself of 100L for her sustenance."

CP identifies the above Katherine as Katherine Gifford who was living
in 1322 as a nun at Ledbury. Possibly here she is entering the
nunnery and so grant her lands. But on 10 Nov 1308 to whom does she
grant? To her rightful heir, the presumably only child of her eldest
son Thomas who we know by the Close Rolls was still LIVING as late as
9 Mar 1309 (the year called "second year [of my reign]" cannot mean
1308).

No, she grants to Nicholas her second son, who by the way is also not
the custodian of the body of his alledged nephew. Possibly because
Nicholas himself is still a minor *at this time*, which is odd.

She grants to a minor, not his guardian Hugh le Despencer and she
grants all her lands to her second son, instead of her grandson then
living, who by the way, also isn't in her custody.

And who the heck is Bertrand de Cayllou that he should have custody of
the body of the grandson anyway?

Of course, that Thomas d'Audley first husband of Eve de Clavering
isn't in fact a member of this family, would wipe all these problems
away.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Eve de Clavering, wife of Sir J

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 mai 2007 11:26:03

On May 2, 2:21 am, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Furthermore, since Eve is described as "aged 40" [probably "40 or more"] at the IPM of her mother, I submit that she could not be the mother of this heir of Thomas de Audley her first husband.

See below - there is no reason to believe she was mother of Thomas's
heir - the question is whether the heir was his son.

So Thomas de Audley her first husband must have had a previous marriage.

Only if his heir in 2 Edward II was his son - see below.

And then we have the statement that he died a minor and unmarried, while Eva's husband Thomas had a heir who was living at least several months after this above statement. Very curious isn't it.

It isn't curious that Thomas de Audley had an heir living in 2 Edward
II; it would be curious if he had a *son* living then.

Michael Miller's translation of the Close Roll document is, as usual,
an excellent one. Nevertheless, I question the accuracy of the
relevant part, viz:

q.f. ejusdem Thomas h'uit

as

"which the son of the same Thomas held"

It seems as logical to me from the context of the document, and more
logical given what else is known of the genealogy, if "f" is taken to
stand for "frater" rather than "filius" - i.e. his heir was his
brother, Nicholas, not a putative son whose existence would throw what
is otherwise known of the family into utter confusion. If Thomas's
lands passed to his brother Nicholas after his death, from whom the
former's widow Eve obtained dower, then everything falls back into
place.

Regards, Michael Andrews-Reading

Gjest

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Eve de Clavering, wife of Sir J

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 mai 2007 11:28:54

On Apr 29, 8:00 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Will Johnson has helpfully posted some documentation on
_www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Eve_de_Clavering#Primary_d...
tion_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... ering#Pr...)

I have ventured to add a translation of the Close Roll record to Will's page.
Hope that is ok, Will?
If I have got the translation right, it seems to show that Eve did indeed
marry Thomas Audley as her first husband, and Thomas de Ufford as her second.
Also that Thomas Audley apparently had a child and heir (not necessarily by
Eve), whose inheritance was in the custody first of Piers Gaveston and then
(by assignment) of Bertrand de Cayllou.
MM

See my note elsewhere - should we not consider that the appropriate
translation of "q.f. ejusdem Thomas h'uit" is "which the brother
[frater] of the said Thomas held" - i.e. there was no such son? The
apparently conflicting evidence that Thomas's heir is otherwise known
to have been his minor brother, Nicholas, would therefore remain
undisturbed.

MAR

WJhonson

Re: Sadhbh, mother of Raghnall, king of Man

Legg inn av WJhonson » 02 mai 2007 21:02:09

Is this name Rhodri ap Owain, the *ruler* of Gwynedd (from 1170 to 1190) ?
Thanks
Will



In a message dated 05/02/07 12:40:51 Pacific Standard Time, Mississippienne@gmail.com writes:
Rhodri
ab Owain Gwynedd

WJhonson

Re: Alice Heritage, ancestor of Diana, Princess of Wales

Legg inn av WJhonson » 02 mai 2007 23:06:37

I believe this might say that he acquired "one third" of Burton Dasset in 1557, in two separate purchases, from the same owner, or perhaps two related owners, Thomas and Leonard Danet.

Will


In a message dated 05/02/07 14:23:59 Pacific Standard Time, jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
Also, an article on the Temple family in vol. 3 of
"Herald and Genealogist' says that Peter acquired Burton Dasset in 1560 by
purchase and doesn't mention him inheriting the estate.

WJhonson

Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth

Legg inn av WJhonson » 02 mai 2007 23:29:50

John I'm sorry but my research only goes back to a period at least one if not four generations forward of this.

That Thomas Leventhorpe, 2nd Bart of Shingey Hall who married Dorothy Alington (1604-1643) and died in 1636 after having at least or exactly five children, was a son of

John Leventhorpe, 1st Bart of Shingey Hall (~1560 - 1625) by his wife Joan Brograve (bur 1 Mar 1627/8)

John was a son of
Edward Leventhorpe d 1566 by his wife Mary Parker, second daughter of Sir Henry Parker d.v.p 1551/2 by his wife Grace Newport d 1578

Edward was a son of
Edward Leventhorpe of Shingey Hall d 1551 by his wife Elizabeth Barley

Edward was a son of
Thomas Leventhorpe of Shingey Hall d Oct 1527 by his wife Jane Dalison

If anyone can extend the line back further, that would be appreciated.

Will Johnson




In a message dated 05/02/07 06:25:51 Pacific Standard Time, John4999@hotmail.com writes:
I have an Isabel Leventhorpe of Matham(s) estate Herts. marrying a Thomas
Bataille.
Thomas died 1439
Isabel,was granted a 1/3 dower in Ongar Park Magda(len) Laver/Lever upon
Thomas's death.

John Higgins

Re: Alice Heritage, ancestor of Diana, Princess of Wales

Legg inn av John Higgins » 03 mai 2007 00:21:26

Thae article I cited says [twice] that Peter Temple acquired Burton Dasset
in 1560, not 1557, and it makes no mention of only a one-third interest. I
assume you're basing this statement on some other document you've found -
can you quote the document and ite it?

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: Alice Heritage, ancestor of Diana, Princess of Wales


I believe this might say that he acquired "one third" of Burton Dasset in
1557, in two separate purchases, from the same owner, or perhaps two related

owners, Thomas and Leonard Danet.
Will


In a message dated 05/02/07 14:23:59 Pacific Standard Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
Also, an article on the Temple family in vol. 3 of
"Herald and Genealogist' says that Peter acquired Burton Dasset in 1560 by
purchase and doesn't mention him inheriting the estate.

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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Re: CP Addition: Elizabeth de Tiliol, wife of Anthony,

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 mai 2007 00:27:06

Dear John,
Thank you very much. Perhaps somewhere in these alliances I may find the many unknown wives of the Viponts.
Christian was the daughter of Robert Vipont but I do not know whether she was the daughter of Helen of Allerston or Idonea de Busli. This Robert, son of William and Maud de Morville had a sister Christian who married Robert son of Derman.
The William Vipont mentioned in the document with Peter Tilliot (1322) is called Lord of Alston. Alston descended to the sons of Ivo de Vipont, brother of Robert and Christian. His sons Lawrence and Nicholas inherited Alston and this William may be of either line.
Pat

From: "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com
Date: 2007/05/01 Tue PM 08:30:56 EDT> To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: CP Addition: Elizabeth de Tiliol, wife of Anthony,
Lord Lucy (d. 1343)

Dear Pat,

Joan de Greystoke was a daughter of Thomas de Greystoke> (also called Thomas fitz William) and his wife Christian de
Vipont. Reference to her, as her son's mother, can be found
in Complete Peerage (CP V:514) and the Victoria County
History for the East Riding of Yorkshire (VCH East Riding
III:164-170 [sub _Fangfoss_]). She is currently shown in
Leo's fine website, Genealogics.org., under #I00451657.

The timeframe of your second query (1322) is concurrent
with Sir Peter de Tiliol's career, but given the varied
spellings and de Tilliol's primary locus in the West, I'm not
sure if this is a reference to the same individual. I've not
seen the 'Tilliott' spelling before. Of course that is proof
of nothing, and we well know the county boundaries were not
hermetic seals.....

As to your last query, the earlier post provides the
answer. In the AT you will find Richard de Lucy as #18, and
Ada de Morville his wife at #19. They were the parents of
Alice de Lucy (#9), wife of Alan de Multon and mother of
Thomas de Lucy (#4), lord of Papcastle, who took his mother's
name.

Cheers,

John




On May 1, 10:49?am, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
John,
Could you identify Joan de Greystoke? Harrison's History of Yorkshire has the follwwing:
"1322 William de Vipont, Lord of Alston, etc., who, with Peter Tilliott and others were

WJhonson

Re: Alice Heritage, ancestor of Diana, Princess of Wales

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 mai 2007 00:40:09

Sure John see below
Subj: Re: Some Temple and Giffard wills (continued)
Date: 6/19/06 12:54:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: rjmatsleepers@yahoo.co.uk (John Matthews)
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
<snipped>
My source is N W Alcock's scholarly edition of the account book of Peter Temple published under the title of Warwickshire Grazier and London Skinner 1532-1555.
The Dannett third of the Burton Dassett Manor was purchased in 2 bites. In 1557, Peter purchased from Thomas Dannett, a half interest in the Dannett third. He apparently paid the curiously precise sum of £972 13s 5d. In 1559, Peter bought the other half of the Dannett third of the manor from Leonard Dannett (Thomas' brother) for £1,580.
At the time, Temple was the agent for the 3 co-owners and these purchases upset one of the other co-owners - Sir Anthony Cooke. Alcock gives a lengthy account of this dispute which led to Temple being in the Tower for over a year, but which did not overturn these purchases.
------------------------------------------



In a message dated 05/02/07 16:23:43 Pacific Standard Time, jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
Thae article I cited says [twice] that Peter Temple acquired Burton Dasset
in 1560, not 1557, and it makes no mention of only a one-third interest. I
assume you're basing this statement on some other document you've found -
can you quote the document and ite it?

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: Alice Heritage, ancestor of Diana, Princess of Wales


I believe this might say that he acquired "one third" of Burton Dasset in
1557, in two separate purchases, from the same owner, or perhaps two related

owners, Thomas and Leonard Danet.
Will


In a message dated 05/02/07 14:23:59 Pacific Standard Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
Also, an article on the Temple family in vol. 3 of
"Herald and Genealogist' says that Peter acquired Burton Dasset in 1560 by
purchase and doesn't mention him inheriting the estate.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
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WJhonson

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Eve de Clavering, wife of Sir J

Legg inn av WJhonson » 03 mai 2007 00:50:49

I've added your note to the translation page.

On a second note, not quite "everything" falls into place however.
We're still left with the curiousity that Hugh le Despencer, not otherwise known for being magnanimous, marries off his prize ward to some unrelated girl for some mysterious purpose and then goes back to the new king Edward 2 for the brother. It's an odd bit of work.

If Thomas is sickly or defective in some way and Hugh is considering smothering him in his sleep, why marry him to anyone ? Also the original grant by Edward 1 to Hugh in 1299 specifically states that he should get the next heir if this one dies before marriage. So why doesn't Hugh just get the next heir?

Will Johnson

In a message dated 05/02/07 03:30:47 Pacific Standard Time, mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
If Thomas's
lands passed to his brother Nicholas after his death, from whom the
former's widow Eve obtained dower, then everything falls back into
place.

Gjest

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Eve de Clavering, wife of Sir J

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 mai 2007 05:47:31

On 3 Mai, 00:50, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
I've added your note to the translation page.

On a second note, not quite "everything" falls into place however.
We're still left with the curiousity that Hugh le Despencer, not otherwise known for being magnanimous, marries off his prize ward to some unrelated girl for some mysterious purpose and then goes back to the new king Edward 2 for the brother. It's an odd bit of work.

If Thomas is sickly or defective in some way and Hugh is considering smothering him in his sleep, why marry him to anyone ? Also the original grant by Edward 1 to Hugh in 1299 specifically states that he should get the next heir if this one dies before marriage. So why doesn't Hugh just get the next heir?

Because, despite the CPR entry for 2 Edward II, the first one did not
die unmarried. And perhaps the Claverings made him an offer he
couldn't refuse, or called in a favour - impossible to say at this
distance.

MA-R

JohnH

Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth

Legg inn av JohnH » 03 mai 2007 16:04:58

Thanks anyway Will, worth an ask.
John H
"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1666.1178145086.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
John I'm sorry but my research only goes back to a period at least one if
not four generations forward of this.

That Thomas Leventhorpe, 2nd Bart of Shingey Hall who married Dorothy
Alington (1604-1643) and died in 1636 after having at least or exactly
five children, was a son of

John Leventhorpe, 1st Bart of Shingey Hall (~1560 - 1625) by his wife Joan
Brograve (bur 1 Mar 1627/8)

John was a son of
Edward Leventhorpe d 1566 by his wife Mary Parker, second daughter of Sir
Henry Parker d.v.p 1551/2 by his wife Grace Newport d 1578

Edward was a son of
Edward Leventhorpe of Shingey Hall d 1551 by his wife Elizabeth Barley

Edward was a son of
Thomas Leventhorpe of Shingey Hall d Oct 1527 by his wife Jane Dalison

If anyone can extend the line back further, that would be appreciated.

Will Johnson




In a message dated 05/02/07 06:25:51 Pacific Standard Time,
John4999@hotmail.com writes:
I have an Isabel Leventhorpe of Matham(s) estate Herts. marrying a Thomas
Bataille.
Thomas died 1439
Isabel,was granted a 1/3 dower in Ongar Park Magda(len) Laver/Lever upon
Thomas's death.

Gjest

Re: Another C.P. Correction: Eve de Clavering, wife of Sir J

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 mai 2007 16:59:03

mjcar writes:

<It seems as logical to me from the context of the document, and more
<logical given what else is known of the genealogy, if "f" is taken to
<stand for "frater" rather than "filius"

The very same thought had belatedly occurred to me, Michael: I think you
must be right, as usual.
MM

J.C.B.Sharp

Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth

Legg inn av J.C.B.Sharp » 03 mai 2007 20:19:02

In article <4639f74a$1_4@news.chariot.net.au>,
John4999@hotmail.com (JohnH) wrote:

Thanks anyway Will, worth an ask.
John H
"WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.1666.1178145086.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
John I'm sorry but my research only goes back to a period
at least
one if not four generations forward of this.

That Thomas Leventhorpe, 2nd Bart of Shingey Hall who
married Dorothy
Alington (1604-1643) and died in 1636 after having at
least or
exactly five children, was a son of

John Leventhorpe, 1st Bart of Shingey Hall (~1560 - 1625)
by his wife
Joan Brograve (bur 1 Mar 1627/8)

John was a son of
Edward Leventhorpe d 1566 by his wife Mary Parker, second
daughter of
Sir Henry Parker d.v.p 1551/2 by his wife Grace Newport d
1578

Edward was a son of
Edward Leventhorpe of Shingey Hall d 1551 by his wife
Elizabeth Barley

Edward was a son of
Thomas Leventhorpe of Shingey Hall d Oct 1527 by his wife
Jane Dalison

If anyone can extend the line back further, that would be
appreciated.

Will Johnson




In a message dated 05/02/07 06:25:51 Pacific Standard
Time,
John4999@hotmail.com writes:
I have an Isabel Leventhorpe of Matham(s) estate Herts.
marrying a
Thomas
Bataille.
Thomas died 1439
Isabel,was granted a 1/3 dower in Ongar Park Magda(len)
Laver/Lever
upon
Thomas's death.

The best account is:

P.W.Kerr, The Leventhorpes of Sawbridgeworth, Trans East Herts
Arch Soc, ix, 1935, 129-151.

WJhonson

Re: Leventhorpe of Sawbridgenorth

Legg inn av WJhonson » 04 mai 2007 01:29:04

Tim you lazy sot :)
The Josselyn pedigree you posted, has the Anne married Bigod but then on a later page of that same document you posted to your site, it corrects it as below. They call it Josselyn (No 2). Not really sure what that means. Did they query two different families both living in that county ? Or are they merging two different sets of documents ?



In a message dated 05/03/07 16:10:52 Pacific Standard Time, tim@powys.org writes:
In message of 3 May, wjhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

On May 3, 4:30 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 3 May, "JohnH" <John4...@hotmail.com> wrote:

http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1558.pdf
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/Manuscrip ... n_1612.pdf

It is worth noting that the Joscelin pedigree which contains the false
information has a comment at its end on page 230 of:


Thanks for these Tim. As I'm going along adding the details I note
one possible correction.
In the Joscelin visitation it is noted that Ann married "Bigod of
Bloffield"

Give us a clue! Which page?

There was a connection between the Josselyn family and the BAGOT
family who were of "Blithfield" [Stafford] and I wonder that this
isn't what is here meant.

Even if I had found it, I'm sure my response would have been the same:
no idea, sorry!

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

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Gjest

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 mai 2007 19:39:02

But you are mistaken imho.
I often find details overlooked, by scouring already printed books.
When people create indexes they don't always pay attention to every nuance
of the interplay of those entries.

Take for example this sequence
John Trumpet, 37 married Mary Gillenwater 26 25 Mar 1591
Patrick Mickle married Mrs Mary Trumpet 42 29 Mar 1607

These two entries would be dozens of pages away from each other, and yet
putting them side-by-side here suggests that the same Mary had two marriages.
Which can then be confirmed by examining census returns hopefully. All of
these things have been previously published, and yet you're finding something
*new* by reviewing them yet again.

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

WJhonson

Re: Thomas Bradley 1633 of VA, son of Thomas Bradley DD, de

Legg inn av WJhonson » 05 mai 2007 02:55:45

I have precedence over you and I shant tell you where I live.


In a message dated 05/04/07 18:31:20 Pacific Standard Time, rbrabazon@msn.com writes:
The only remaining question is -- How many descendents of the Plantagenets, Tudors, Stuarts, and the Windsors have to be eliminated so I can take my rightful place as the King of England?

John P. DuLong

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 05 mai 2007 03:29:58

Books and articles have their place in genealogical research, but to
solve difficult problems involving French-Canadian noble and bourgeois
families that genealogists have worked on for several generations it is
clear that the answer does not lie in previously published work. To
continue using these works would be like the drunk who hunts for his
lost car keys under the street light because the lighting is better
there even though he lost his keys away from the light.

Most problems in French-Canadian research are well known and have been
researched by many different genealogists over several decades. M.
Gagné is 100 percent correct that any future progress has to be made in
searching through original records back in France. We French Canadians
are spoiled because so many of our records here in North America are
well preserved, organized, indexed, and many accessible online. This is
simply not the case in France. Furthermore, the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints has not microfilmed as extensively in France as
they have in the United Kingdom and Ireland. Therefore, doing research
in France is much more challenging.

We need to engage in organized research efforts that rely on locating
and using original records in France. This is an expensive and time
consuming proposition. This is why I believe that we have to abandon
the model of the solo researcher striking out on his own to solve a
difficult problem. We need more team approaches like what was used on
the Baillon and Le Neuf projects. Even the accomplished M. Gagné had to
rely on a partner in France to make progress on the Longueval project.
Using a team approach the costs can be shared, the labor divided, and
each team member's particular expertise can be properly employed.

I think we also need a better mechanism for financially supporting these
research teams. Perhaps genealogical societies could do special fund
raisers to support these teams. The genealogical societies could also
be official endorsers of projects which might help encourage people to
donate to the teams.

Finding the occasional odd fact by combing through published works is
possible, but it is growing more and more unlikely. We have to hit the
original records to make any substantial progress especially on tracing
noble and bourgeois families back in France.

While it will always be necessary to review the available published
literature on a research question to insure that it has not already been
answered, it is incumbent that we still apply our critical skills to any
published findings. Does a published work really solve a problem? Is
it based on the best available evidence? Is it chronologically
possible? Are their conflicting solutions to the problem? Etc.

Lastly, published works play an important role once a breakthrough is
made on a research project to expand the findings based on previously
documented cases. However, we must still retain a critical eye. This
is especially true with Medieval genealogical research were so much work
was done in previous centuries and was not necessarily done using the
most professional methods or with access to documents that we now have
available to us.

JP

Gjest

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mai 2007 09:33:11

On May 4, 8:36 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
But you are mistaken imho..

Take for example this sequence
John Trumpet, 37 married Mary Gillenwater 26 25 Mar 1591
Patrick Mickle married Mrs Mary Trumpet 42 29 Mar 1607

Will Johnson

Good day,

Please kindly read my message (except if my English is not
understandable), I am referring to French Canadian genealogy, and I
respectfully do not see in it names like Trumpet, Mickle, Gillenwater
which do not sound French to me. Yours, R;Yves Gagné

Andrra

RE: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Andrra » 05 mai 2007 10:24:04

Yes

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of
rygagne@hotmail.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:33 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007


On May 4, 8:36 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
But you are mistaken imho..

Take for example this sequence
John Trumpet, 37 married Mary Gillenwater 26 25 Mar 1591 Patrick
Mickle married Mrs Mary Trumpet 42 29 Mar 1607

Will Johnson

Good day,

Please kindly read my message (except if my English is not
understandable), I am referring to French Canadian genealogy, and I
respectfully do not see in it names like Trumpet, Mickle, Gillenwater
which do not sound French to me. Yours, R;Yves Gagné



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
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Saluzzo

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Saluzzo » 05 mai 2007 10:47:09

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems in
Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public.
The owner, a certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important
genalogical italian publisher, first of all by the publisher of the
"Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana".
Due of this legal pursue, it is emerged that this guy seem's to be
completely uknown to the italian and not italian world of scholars,
university etc. and it is used to copy the main part of his work from
other sources (like the "Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no
possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next future...



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry
to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any of the
applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have technical
problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as soon as
possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
<oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






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Diane Sheppard

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 05 mai 2007 11:34:23

On May 4, 9:29 pm, "John P. DuLong" <dulo...@habitant.org> wrote:
I think we also need a better mechanism for financially supporting these
research teams. Perhaps genealogical societies could do special fund
raisers to support these teams. The genealogical societies could also
be official endorsers of projects which might help encourage people to
donate to the teams.

John, I agree that we need a better mechanism for supporting these
research efforts and that support in the way of funraisers or
endorsements might help encourage people to donate to the research
teams.

Part of the problem is that descendants of the couple researched often
are not aware of the research until after the project has been
completed. Had I known of R Yves Gagne's research on the d'Ailleboust
and Menteith families, I would have been glad to contribute to his
research. In addition, I would have contributed to the Catherine
Baillon research fund because Marie Martin (the Menteith gateway
ancestor) shares part of Catherine Baillon's ancestry.

As an example, we could publicize research projects in Michigan's
Habitant Heritage, inviting potential contributors to contact the
researchers.

If the researchers or members of this group who are aware of research
projects would be willing to post information about a research project
to this group, to our mail list in Michigan and to the editors of the
appropriate French Canadian Genealogical Societies, this could start
the fundraising project.

Diane Sheppard

Helene Lamarche

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Helene Lamarche » 05 mai 2007 12:58:34

I can only but thoroughly agree to what has been said by Roland-Yves Gagné,
John P. Dulong about the need to rely on original records - as well as the
challenge it si to do so.

John is right in stating the importance of "organized research efforts that
rely on locating and using original records in France" this being "an
expensive and time consuming proposition.". So far, such team approaches as
used on the Baillon and Le Neuf projects are exceptional examples.
Exceptional both in their rarity and the outstanding results that were
achieved. And yes, it is imperative to find "a better mechanism for
financially supporting these research teams".

At this point, I would like to indicate, that while its purposes are
different (broader and not specifically focused on one family or lineage)
there is already one very effective example of a such "joint venture"
between genealogical associations.

I am referring to the Fichier Origine an "in progress » database of civil
and notarial records sponsored by PROFEQ, or Projet franco-québécois de
recherche sur les origines familiales des émigrants français et étrangers
établis au Québec des origines à 1865 (which could loosely be translated as
: researching the origin of French and other immigrants in Quebec up to
1865). The purpose is to make these records free and available, on line, to
all researchers. See http://www.fichierorigine.com/index.htm

The project is a collaboration of the Fédération française de généalogie
and theFédération québécoise des sociétés de généalogie.
See http://www.fichierorigine.com/presentation.htm

As well, as the editor of the Mémoires for the past five years, I have
witnessed a tremendous increase of collaboration between researchers of both
sides of the Atlantic, both individually and collectively. And extending
lately to the Michigan's Habitant Heritage.

Certainly, both the Michigan's Habitant Heritage and the Mémoires - as well
as the soc. genealogy groups - could play a vital role in sharing
information and "networking" research projects, regardless of the barrier
language (as R.Y Gagné and I are so well aware of) . But as we all know,
when there's a will .

Hélène Lamarche
Rédactrice en chef
Mémoires de la Société génalogique canadienne-française

Gjest

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mai 2007 13:10:25

On May 5, 5:29 am, "John P. DuLong" <dulo...@habitant.org> wrote:

Even the accomplished M. Gagné had to. rely on a partner in France to
make progress on the Longueval project.
Using a team approach the costs can be shared, the labor divided, and
each team member's particular expertise can be properly employed.

I
Good Day,


Mr.: Dulong raises a good issue. The Amyot-Longueval project that was
published in the Memoires de la Societe genealogique canadienne-
française in April 2007 benefited from the very good advices of one of
its co-authors, Laurent Kokanosky. I learned that having a very
qualified co-author from the area of research is capital for the
success of a search in a foreign country. First, the way the archives
are organized in France is totally different than the way we have in
the Province of Quebec. Having a "local guide" allows any North
American to save himself a lot of time (and the proverb Time is money
makes here a lot of sense!) to find his way. Second, as the history
of families through centuries is obviously different from the one in
North America, sharing anything you find with him will allow you to
know a lot concerning facts that are obvious for any French National
but totally unknown for a North American. Also, you might find family
names that will immediately ring a bell to your co-author and will
lead you to new directions. So; obviously, any North American wishing
to make searches in Europe will gain a lot from a team work with
someone of the area of search. And you can even make yourself a new
friend!
After the Amyot Longueval project; the same co-authors are now working
on the ancestry of Guillaume Daoust, before going after other settlers
from that area of France.
Have a good week-end, R;-Yves Gagné

Jack Baschon

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Jack Baschon » 05 mai 2007 14:33:12

I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian genealogies:
"Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del Mediterraneo"
http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems in
Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public. The owner, a
certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important genalogical italian
publisher, first of all by the publisher of the "Annuario della Nobiltà
Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it is emerged that this guy seem's
to be completely uknown to the italian and not italian world of
scholars, university etc. and it is used to copy the main part of his
work from other sources (like the "Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no
possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next future...



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site


Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry
to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any of the
applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have technical
problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as soon as
possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
<oscan1@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43950@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us






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Denis Beauregard

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 05 mai 2007 14:59:09

Le Sat, 5 May 2007 07:58:34 -0400, "Helene Lamarche"
<achel@videotron.ca> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.french:

As well, as the editor of the Mémoires for the past five years, I have
witnessed a tremendous increase of collaboration between researchers of both
sides of the Atlantic, both individually and collectively. And extending
lately to the Michigan's Habitant Heritage.

Let me remind you that you rejected an article about one of my
ancestor because the same article was to be published at the same
time by a society in France and another in USA.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

oscan1@yahoo.com

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av oscan1@yahoo.com » 05 mai 2007 16:34:24

On May 5, 6:33 am, "Jack Baschon" <ebasche...@katamail.com> wrote:
I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian genealogies:
"Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del Mediterraneo"http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems in
Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public. The owner, a
certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important genalogical italian
publisher, first of all by the publisher of the "Annuario della Nobiltà
Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it is emerged that this guy seem's
to be completely uknown to the italian and not italian world of
scholars, university etc. and it is used to copy the main part of his
work from other sources (like the "Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no
possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next future...

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry
to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any of the
applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have technical
problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as soon as
possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
osc...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

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Thank you for the link to the website. And thank you to everyone who
responded to my query. It's an increasing rare pleasure to deal with
intelligent, civilized people on the internet.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

Denis Beauregard

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 05 mai 2007 18:44:46

Le Sat, 5 May 2007 13:21:49 EDT, WJhonson@aol.com écrivait dans
soc.genealogy.medieval:

In a message dated 5/5/2007 7:00:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
denis.b-at-francogene.com@fr.invalid writes:

Let me remind you that you rejected an article about one of my
ancestor because the same article was to be published at the same
time by a society in France and another in USA.


Denis could you not just publish your work on one of your web pages?

It was not MY work, but that of a French searcher. And it was
published at other societies. I am not sure, but maybe it was
publish in L'Ancêtre.

I said it was one of my ancestor to specify that it was someone
with descendants today.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

Gjest

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mai 2007 19:24:03

In a message dated 5/5/2007 7:00:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
denis.b-at-francogene.com@fr.invalid writes:

Let me remind you that you rejected an article about one of my
ancestor because the same article was to be published at the same
time by a society in France and another in USA.


Denis could you not just publish your work on one of your web pages?

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mai 2007 19:25:08

In a message dated 5/5/2007 1:35:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
rygagne@hotmail.com writes:

Please kindly read my message (except if my English is not
understandable), I am referring to French Canadian genealogy, and I
respectfully do not see in it names like Trumpet, Mickle, Gillenwater
which do not sound French to me. Yours, R;Yves Gagné


You completely avoid the argument. Replace each name with a French name and
its the same argument. While the records might be published, not all the
interactions within the records are published, and new findings can appear from
those.
Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com..

Dora Smith

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 05 mai 2007 19:43:17

I get Denis's point, and I agree with him. I won't share with publishers
that demand exclusive control of my information either. I just about
threatened to sue the last person who tried it with me, and I've never
interacted with her since.

Of course Denis, or his client, or whoever's information it actually was,
could publish it elsewhere, and obviously whoever it was did so. That is
not the point.

The point is as exciting as it sounded, this French service obviously has a
prohibitive attitude problem, and I'm now feeling lukewarm about it too.

Actually, from what I've been hearing about France, genealogically and
otherwise, I was astounded it had anything as helpful as this service
sounded. It was nice to hear, but obviously that wasn't the full story.

--
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com
"Denis Beauregard" <denis.b-at-francogene.com@fr.invalid> wrote in message
news:ha3p33l5jojdj02bbks26reh46toicr06s@4ax.com...
Le Sat, 5 May 2007 07:58:34 -0400, "Helene Lamarche"
achel@videotron.ca> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.french:

As well, as the editor of the Mémoires for the past five years, I have
witnessed a tremendous increase of collaboration between researchers of
both
sides of the Atlantic, both individually and collectively. And extending
lately to the Michigan's Habitant Heritage.

Let me remind you that you rejected an article about one of my
ancestor because the same article was to be published at the same
time by a society in France and another in USA.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord -
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 -
http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

Tony Hoskins

Re: Warwick and the Beauchamp Chapel

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 05 mai 2007 20:31:50

Dear Michael:

How kind of you!

As a descendant of #s 2 (a & b) and 3, I'd love to see your photos of
their tombs. I saw them last many years ago, as a student wandering
through Warwick, little knowing at that time that I was a descendant.

Many thanks!

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Warwick and the Beauchamp Chapel

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mai 2007 20:50:46

On 5 Mai, 20:31, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
Dear Michael:

How kind of you!

As a descendant of #s 2 (a & b) and 3, I'd love to see your photos of
their tombs. I saw them last many years ago, as a student wandering
through Warwick, little knowing at that time that I was a descendant.

Many thanks!

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

They're on their way, Tony - enjoy!

Cheers, Michael

John P. DuLong

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 05 mai 2007 21:33:44

Dora Smith wrote:

The point is as exciting as it sounded, this French service obviously has a
prohibitive attitude problem, and I'm now feeling lukewarm about it too.

Actually, from what I've been hearing about France, genealogically and
otherwise, I was astounded it had anything as helpful as this service
sounded. It was nice to hear, but obviously that wasn't the full story.

Opps, your Francophobia is showing.

Given the conditions the French work under, that is, records lost and
damaged due to two world wars, dispersed records, unindexed records,
etc., I have always been pleased with the professional and helpful
service I have received from the French departmental archives. There is
no "prohibitive attitude problem" among these archivists. I have done
research directly and indirectly in the USA, Canada, England, Scotland,
Ireland, Switzerland, and the Netherlands and I would say the service I
have received from the French has been no different except perhaps for
the length of time it takes to receive mailings (but that could also be
in part due to the United States Postal Service).

JP

John P. DuLong

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 05 mai 2007 21:39:25

The Longueval and Daoust projects were both announced on UseNet News and
there should be a notice about the Daoust project in an up coming
issue of Michigan's Habitant Heritage. In addition, I posted messages
regarding these projects on some relevant family forums. However, you
are right Diane that we could do a better job advertising these projects.

As for missing a chance to financially assist on one of the past
research projects, why not pay it forward? M. Gagné is engaged in the
Daoust project right now. He could use financial help. So if you have
benefited at all from any of his past research efforts on the Baillon,
Le Neuf, Monteith, or Longueval projects, then please consider donating
to his new Daoust project. You can learn more about it at
http://www.habitant.org/daoust.

JP

Denis Beauregard

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 05 mai 2007 21:48:02

Le Sat, 5 May 2007 13:20:27 EDT, WJhonson@aol.com écrivait dans
soc.genealogy.medieval:

In a message dated 5/5/2007 1:35:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
rygagne@hotmail.com writes:

Please kindly read my message (except if my English is not
understandable), I am referring to French Canadian genealogy, and I
respectfully do not see in it names like Trumpet, Mickle, Gillenwater
which do not sound French to me. Yours, R;Yves Gagné


You completely avoid the argument. Replace each name with a French name and
its the same argument. While the records might be published, not all the
interactions within the records are published, and new findings can appear from
those.

But the comparison has too many different parameters to be
meaningful. I think this topic was discussed here some years ago.

You have many differences.

For example, the availability of records and where they are located.
In France, you will have to go to many centers to follow a trail. In
England, there are Visitations.

In France, the older genealogical society appeared in the 1950s.
In England, there were record societies that were publishing records.
Just type "record society" in books.google.com and you get at this
time over 7,000 entries like publications by (I keep the date):

Northamptonshire Record Society - 1924
Norfolk Record Society - 1931
Lincoln Record Society - 1912
Bristol Record Society - 1930

Nothing close to that in France. They begun to publish records only
in the 1950s so that many records lost in WW II will never be
available.

The relation between the nobles and the commoners was different
like the relation between the natives and the colonists was different
in New France and New England. There were 2 different societies with
different use, laws, religions, etc.

The population of Quebec is 7 M, compared to 300 M in USA. With the
same % of searchers interessed in medieval, they are 1/35 of the same
in USA. And indeed, there wer very few people who worked with
original old records. Tanguay published some French records in
1870-1891. Before him and after him, many studies were made about
one specific family by the Roy and some authors but only Godbout
(between 1925 and 1960) attempted a systematic search over all the
French records looking for the commoners and the nobles. Only a small
part of his papers were published. After him, nobody else tried to do
the same thing. The searchers always limited themselves to either
republishing data found by other or to a small set of families. For
example, Rene Jette included a lot of material from Godbout in his
dictionary but made no European search (for original records) of his
own for this dictionary (the DGFQ was published in 1983). It is only
since the works about Catherine de Baillon that he was involved in a
search from original records but he did that with a team. This was
extended later to the Le Neuf project and Yves Gagné, who was on his
team, made himself more search by his own, also from original records,
but focussing on his own ancestors (which is anyway a huge job by
itself). I am also integrating data from many other searchers but
likewise, the only medieval original records I have used were for my
own Beauregard-Jarret line (which I found to 1471 and I was lucky
because someone else translated the documents before I learned they
existed).

All other searchers I know are either working in one of those teams or
working from secondary sources or are working on their own family
or are working on post-1600 records. The only one who ever worked on
nearly all families and from original records was Archange Godbout.
There is not enough published work to do otherwise.

You can't presume research in France is like research in England.

But, on one point, you are right: Godbout didn't check ALL the
possible records. He had no computer, no Internet, and no time
travelling machine. He didn't visit all the local archives in
France. He didn't check all the families in all the major
medieval dictionaries, something than can be done now. But from
what I have found myself until now, the possibilities are very
small to find something useful (i.e. descendants living today).
What I find usually in Pere Anselme etc. is for unmarried persons
like nuns or for someone with no child or no grand-child or where
the descendants migrated to France or West Indies. And
those who found something in France for many generations nearly
always did it from original records (either found by themselves
or by Godbout). I think the only exceptions are Levreault (royal
line) and Sacquepee (no royal line) for those with descendants.
It seems all other are from Godbout searches (mostly published
in 1975, 15 years after his death) or original searches in France.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

John Brandon

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av John Brandon » 05 mai 2007 21:54:42

Opps, your Francophobia is showing.

Given the conditions the French work under, that is, records lost and
damaged due to two world wars, dispersed records, unindexed records,
etc., I have always been pleased with the professional and helpful
service I have received from the French departmental archives. There is
no "prohibitive attitude problem" among these archivists. I have done
research directly and indirectly in the USA, Canada, England, Scotland,
Ireland, Switzerland, and the Netherlands and I would say the service I
have received from the French has been no different except perhaps for
the length of time it takes to receive mailings (but that could also be
in part due to the United States Postal Service).

JP

Yes, she's a reactionary Texas socialite mouthing the sentiments of
her great Leader, George W. Bush.

John P. DuLong

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 05 mai 2007 21:55:49

Helene Lamarche wrote:

I am referring to the Fichier Origine an "in progress » database of civil
and notarial records sponsored by PROFEQ, or Projet franco-québécois de
recherche sur les origines familiales des émigrants français et étrangers
établis au Québec des origines à 1865 (which could loosely be translated as
: researching the origin of French and other immigrants in Quebec up to
1865). The purpose is to make these records free and available, on line, to
all researchers. See http://www.fichierorigine.com/index.htm

I was under the impression, and please correct me if I am wrong, that
most of the findings in the Fichier Origine are what I would call low
hanging fruit. That is, these are mostly baptism records people have
found by taking information the immigrant gave in his/her marriage
record or marriage contract, borrowing the necessary microfilm from the
Mormons, and tracking down the baptismal record. Am I perhaps over
simplifying the successes of this project? Fichier Origine is an
important service and can be, as Mme Lamarche suggests, a model of what
a more intensive project could be like.

What I have in mind is a collaborative association that would subscribe
funds from donors and requests grant proposals from research teams. The
teams would have to layout the goal of their project, the research done
to date, the general strategy to be taken, the skills of the team
members, etc. The association would then select the teams to endorse
and fund, perhaps one team a year with continuing grants if progress is
made. The teams would have to provide a confidential progress report
every year. Given the extreme competitiveness in Medieval genealogy,
the association would have to guarantee the intellectual property rights
of the teams including the ones they decide not to fund. At the end of
the project the association would arrange for the publication of the
findings. These are just some sketchy ideas I have been mulling over in
my mind lately.

This is actually not a new model. The New England Historic and
Genealogical Society sponsored a researcher in England for many years
before World War I. They hired Henry F. Waters who searched through the
the Prerogative Court of Canterbury records looking for early New
England and I believe Virginia settlers. I believe other societies also
subscribed to this project and financially supported Waters. But Waters
worked pretty much alone, so this is more a model of society funding a
project than of a team approach.

I keep thinking I should write an article about the topic of sponsored
team researching, but I never seem to have the time.

JP

Diane Sheppard

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Diane Sheppard » 05 mai 2007 22:02:16

On May 5, 3:39 pm, "John P. DuLong" <dulo...@habitant.org> wrote:
As for missing a chance to financially assist on one of the past
research projects, why not pay it forward? M. Gagné is engaged in the
Daoust project right now. He could use financial help. So if you have
benefited at all from any of his past research efforts on the Baillon,
Le Neuf, Monteith, or Longueval projects, then please consider donating
to his new Daoust project. You can learn more about it athttp://www.habitant.org/daoust.

Good point about the donation John.
I guess that I overlooked the information on your website because I
was not a descendant. In the future, if you learn of other research
of this type, please post the information to the FCHSM mail list where
we will be sure to read it.

Diane

Gjest

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 mai 2007 01:34:02

For example Denis, I am a DesMarais descendent as well. Some time ago, I
was contacted by a DesMarais researcher in Quebec because I had done a bit of
work in original parish records there to follow my line backward.

This researcher was telling me that he was going through the notarial
records and the relationships described there showed many errors in what had been
published to date on the line.

If there are still errors in the published lines in Quebec, it seems like
there's plenty of work for people to keep working those lines even before they
consult records in France.

Like you mentioned, very few if any of the researchers on a line, have
actually consulted *all* the relevant documents. Or even all the relevant
published secondary sources on those lines. If we're still publishing *corrections*
to Jette today, then there's still work that can be done right in Quebec.

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: No Credible Proof Queen Elizabeth II Is A Descendant Of

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 mai 2007 02:09:02

In a message dated 5/5/2007 1:40:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

It works the other way, too. Anybody who had children more than a few
hundred years ago is likely to have millions of descendants today, and quite
a few famous ones.


Uh no. Actually the liklihood is that anyone "who had children" in say 1750
may have as few as zero (if the lines all died out) and as many as perhaps
500 to a thousand. Not even close to a million.

Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

John P. DuLong

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 06 mai 2007 02:23:46

Mr. Johnson is correct to point out that there is still progress that
can be made in Québec research by consulting original records to correct
published works, but this is relatively easy work to do and not very
challenging. Most of the original records are indexed and relatively
easy to view on microfilm thanks to the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints.

The challenge comes when we try to extend our pedigrees back to France.
As M. Beauregard points out, it is a totally different game in France.
For a number of historical and logistical reasons, research in France
is much more challenging and problematic. Having now helped my wife
research her Anglo-Irish and Scottish ancestry, I have a better
understanding of why French research can be so much harder to do. There
are just not the same resources and tools available in France as in the
United Kingdom and Ireland (though the latter is also challenging
because of the destruction of important records during the Irish Civil War).

When I was doing research in Calvados and Pas-de-Calais I remember more
than once being told that the records I wanted were destroyed in either
World War I or World War II. It was sad because there were some
privative indexes (really general inventories of collections) to these
destroyed records that indicated that they might have contained valuable
information.

JP

mhollick@mac.com

Re: No Credible Proof Queen Elizabeth II Is A Descendant Of

Legg inn av mhollick@mac.com » 06 mai 2007 02:45:43

On May 5, 8:06 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/5/2007 1:40:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

pant...@excelsior.com writes:

It works the other way, too. Anybody who had children more than a few
hundred years ago is likely to have millions of descendants today, and quite
a few famous ones.

Uh no. Actually the liklihood is that anyone "who had children" in say 1750
may have as few as zero (if the lines all died out) and as many as perhaps
500 to a thousand. Not even close to a million.

Will Johnson

************************************** See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.

That's based on what?

If a person had 10 children in 1750 and each child had five children
(and five children thereafter) and each generation was 30 years you'd
get (without intermarriage):

1750: 10
1780: 50
1810: 250
1840: 1,250
1870: 6,250
1900: 31,250
1930: 156,250
1960: 781,250
1990: 3,906,250

So if you assume a 50% intermarriage and/or death/non procreation
factor you still get close to 2 million living descendants. So your
theory is based on what?

Denis Beauregard

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 06 mai 2007 05:36:01

Le Sat, 5 May 2007 19:32:19 EDT, WJhonson@aol.com écrivait dans
soc.genealogy.medieval:

For example Denis, I am a DesMarais descendent as well. Some time ago, I
was contacted by a DesMarais researcher in Quebec because I had done a bit of
work in original parish records there to follow my line backward.

This researcher was telling me that he was going through the notarial
records and the relationships described there showed many errors in what had been
published to date on the line.

In Quebec, not in France.

If there are still errors in the published lines in Quebec, it seems like
there's plenty of work for people to keep working those lines even before they
consult records in France.

Like you mentioned, very few if any of the researchers on a line, have
actually consulted *all* the relevant documents. Or even all the relevant
published secondary sources on those lines. If we're still publishing *corrections*
to Jette today, then there's still work that can be done right in Quebec.

But there are very few corrections in lines. Very few. Usually, the
correction is for a weak link (either Tanguay or Jette made a guess to
compensate a missing or incomplete record). In a few cases, the
parents on the record were wrong (like the case of Josephte de
St-Paul). Obviously, if the problem is in your ancestors, this will
bug you. Nonetheless, there are now few corrections remaining in the
older families. One challenge I have is to compare the existing main
sources (Tanguay, Jette, Red Drouin, DGQA, NA17, the Acadian series)
to find and study discrepancies. I forward to PRDH the differences I
found in DGQA that need to be corrected (obviously, I won't tell them
about the corrections I made in my own data but I list them for my
users). In the lists I sent last year, I think 4 were rejected,
likely because I put a mark on the wrong line in my database, and 2
cases are differences of opinion which I will study closer later.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

Denis Beauregard

Re: No Credible Proof Queen Elizabeth II Is A Descendant Of

Legg inn av Denis Beauregard » 06 mai 2007 05:54:54

On Sat, 5 May 2007 20:06:32 EDT, WJhonson@aol.com wrote in
soc.genealogy.medieval:

In a message dated 5/5/2007 1:40:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
panther@excelsior.com writes:

Uh no. Actually the liklihood is that anyone "who had children" in say 1750
may have as few as zero (if the lines all died out) and as many as perhaps
500 to a thousand. Not even close to a million.

Pierre Tremblay married in 1657. Today, except maybe 100, all
Tremblay in Quebec are his descendants. Population of Quebec is
7 M, and 1.076% of them are those Tremblay, so roughly 75,000
by a male only line and living today. There is about the same
number of men and women, so you add about 75,000 with a Tremblay
mother and you get 150,000. Roughly the same numbers for
grand-mothers and g-g-mother and g-g-g-mothers etc. and you have
easily over 1 million of descendants after 350 years.

http://www.stat.gouv.qc.ca/publications ... xes1_4.pdf

The case of Zacharie Cloutier is better. He was married in 1616 and
nearly every inhabitant of Quebec with old French roots are his
descendants. Maybe 1% are not descendant of Zacharie. This gives
easily 5 millions of descendants and 5 more millions with the
Franco-Americans and the Franco-Canadians out of Quebec. About 10 M
in 400 years, maybe 20 M.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 - http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

Bob Turcott

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 06 mai 2007 07:28:52

Denis,
here is an instance where a correction and update was made for my ancestry,
in this instance Acadian Genealogist Steven White makes such corrections or
additions which is always nice to lead me in getting more directions in
advancing my research more forward, so yes, I am gratefull for updates and
corrections and you clearly understand the value and need of these things.
Keep up the good work and always encourage others of where you may find
fault in their resaerch as it will advance them more forward and make them a
better researcher!!! Thanks Denis!!!

Formal referance

Dictionnaire généalogique des familles acadiennes
Ajouts et corrections



p 514 (sept 2003) Famille de Jean Doiron (1) s. Catherine. Ajouter, après
«TURCOT» sur la deuxième ligne, «(François & Jeanne Bidet)».
[Contribution de J.-M. Germe, des Ormes (France)]

http://www.umoncton.ca/etudeacadiennes/ ... r-dict.htm







From: Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-francogene.com@fr.invalid>
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007
Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 00:36:01 -0400
Le Sat, 5 May 2007 19:32:19 EDT, WJhonson@aol.com écrivait dans
soc.genealogy.medieval:

For example Denis, I am a DesMarais descendent as well. Some time ago,
I
was contacted by a DesMarais researcher in Quebec because I had done a
bit of
work in original parish records there to follow my line backward.

This researcher was telling me that he was going through the notarial
records and the relationships described there showed many errors in what
had been
published to date on the line.

In Quebec, not in France.

If there are still errors in the published lines in Quebec, it seems like
there's plenty of work for people to keep working those lines even before
they
consult records in France.

Like you mentioned, very few if any of the researchers on a line, have
actually consulted *all* the relevant documents. Or even all the
relevant
published secondary sources on those lines. If we're still publishing
*corrections*
to Jette today, then there's still work that can be done right in
Quebec.

But there are very few corrections in lines. Very few. Usually, the
correction is for a weak link (either Tanguay or Jette made a guess to
compensate a missing or incomplete record). In a few cases, the
parents on the record were wrong (like the case of Josephte de
St-Paul). Obviously, if the problem is in your ancestors, this will
bug you. Nonetheless, there are now few corrections remaining in the
older families. One challenge I have is to compare the existing main
sources (Tanguay, Jette, Red Drouin, DGQA, NA17, the Acadian series)
to find and study discrepancies. I forward to PRDH the differences I
found in DGQA that need to be corrected (obviously, I won't tell them
about the corrections I made in my own data but I list them for my
users). In the lists I sent last year, I think 4 were rejected,
likely because I put a mark on the wrong line in my database, and 2
cases are differences of opinion which I will study closer later.


Denis

--
0 Denis Beauregard -
/\/ Les Français d'Amérique du Nord -
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
|\ French in North America before 1721 -
http://www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
/ | Maintenant sur cédérom, début à 1765
oo oo Now on CD-ROM, beginnings to 1765

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_________________________________________________________________
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Bob Turcott

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 06 mai 2007 07:37:08

Jp,

I fully understand the feeling of learning when something was destroyed in
a war, I can remember
when I was doing some research on a Meherenc ancestor and when I had learned
that a coat of arms was destroyed or removed from an ancestral manor of
another branch of the famille during the french revolton, I felt totaly
ripped off and devastated, however in the case of ancient records being
destroyed, I would feel the same way. However the good thing is, there
sometimes is another branch of the very same famille you are researching
that almost always leaves trace records that lead to the final conclustion
that you were looking for, this is the most challenging & rewarding part
about the research. I realize however almost always is the case and not
always, we always seem to find a way to pick up the pieces.

Cheers
Bob


When I was doing research in Calvados and Pas-de-Calais I remember more
than once being told that the records I wanted were destroyed in either
World War I or World War II. It was sad because there were some
privative indexes (really general inventories of collections) to these
destroyed records that indicated that they might have contained valuable
information.

JP

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub005 ... direct/01/

Gjest

Re: No Credible Proof Queen Elizabeth II Is A Descendant Of

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 mai 2007 08:34:02

I agree Denis that there are cases where a person after 350 years might have
a million descendents. But the argument given was that anyone who lived "a
few hundred years ago" and had children would today have a million
descendents.

The question then is, not does someone 350 years ago have a million, but
does everyone (with children) 350 years ago each have a million. I submit that
the average number of descendents is far less then a million.

Will



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 mai 2007 11:58:10

On May 5, 11:33 pm, "John P. DuLong" <dulo...@habitant.org> wrote:
Dora Smith wrote:
The point is as exciting as it sounded, this French service obviously has a
prohibitive attitude problem, and I'm now feeling lukewarm about it too.
Actually, from what I've been hearing about France, genealogically and
otherwise, I was astounded it had anything as helpful as this service
sounded. It was nice to hear, but obviously that wasn't the full story.

Opps, your Francophobia is showing.

Given the conditions the French work under, that is, records lost and
damaged due to two world wars, dispersed records, unindexed records,
etc., I have always been pleased with the professional and helpful
service I have received from the French departmental archives.
JP

Good Day,

Mr. Dulong is raising an issue that is often ignored
by North American researchers with ancestors in
Scotland; England and France and cannot understand why
they have success in Scotland but find only confusion
in France: without a knowledge of the history of
France and French archives, they might spontaneously
blame it on the country itself for reasons based on
ignorance only..
First, the population of Scotland or England was far
less than the population of France in 1600, so it is
normal that there were fewer deeds in Scotland than
France, so indexation is much easier to do, and the
existence of a central Register of Deeds in Scotland
is made easier in Scotland than in France.
Second, France was invaded by foreign troops, not
England or Scotland (recently, I mean, in case someone
replies, no, William the C. invaded England!).
Imagine the troubles of the archivists of the Aisne or
Ardennes department that had to move all the archives
in WWI and WWII, as they tended to be near military
targets, like city halls (as well as inhabitants of
London realized that their hospitals were built near
railway stations during WWII, another military
target). So while our archivists were comfortably in
their offices drafting indexes, French archivists had
other priorities. The archives of Aisne were
transferred to a nuns' house... and of course, many
boxes were lost during the war. Needless to say that
before the existence of archives departementales,
there were many battles in France that destroyed many
archives (there in no more parish registers for
Soissons before 1812). Third; we might not understand
why they do not put on microfilms all these notary
deeds, but this is a question of budget, and the deeds
concerning the history with a big H will be
microfilmed before they can afford to put money in the
notary deeds of a little village. There is a 4th
factor: all notary deeds of the XVIIth century are
not in Archives départementales. Many people in the
Aisne departmental archives will point out that the
reference numbers (call numbers with the name of notary and dates of
deeds in the box)
of the deeds of Soissons cover 3
binders, but the city of Laon covers only one binder.

Have a good day everyone, R;-Yves Gagné

Francisco Tavares de Alme

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Francisco Tavares de Alme » 06 mai 2007 12:15:04

oscan1@yahoo.com escreveu:
On May 5, 6:33 am, "Jack Baschon" <ebasche...@katamail.com> wrote:
I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian genealogies:
"Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del Mediterraneo"http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems in
Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public. The owner, a
certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important genalogical italian
publisher, first of all by the publisher of the "Annuario della Nobiltà
Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it is emerged that this guy seem's
to be completely uknown to the italian and not italian world of
scholars, university etc. and it is used to copy the main part of his
work from other sources (like the "Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no
possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next future...

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are
sorry
to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any of the
applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have technical
problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem as soon as
possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
osc...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page
requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that
they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a
great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

--
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- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the link to the website. And thank you to everyone who
responded to my query. It's an increasing rare pleasure to deal with
intelligent, civilized people on the internet.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

I am very sorry to hear the news.
About the website on Mediterranean Nobility the president is: the 13th
duke of San Donato, marquis don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo prince's
of Santa Margherita, marquis's of Soragna wich in other instances I
also saw claiming be 30th or close baron of something.
Here in gen-med he posted two lines to a noble roman matron, one of
them including two or three generations in Carthago.
What I mean is that Sardimpex I knew I could trust.

OT- btw can somebody give me a clue who I shall adress in Italy to
find me copies or abstracts of 3 births (I do not need certificates)
in Napoli in the early XIX?
I know dates and names; they were germans and evangelic (could also go
to a lutheran church)
and the father was the consul of Württemberg.

Thanks in advance,
Francisco

John P. DuLong

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 06 mai 2007 15:03:13

Acadian research, because of the loss and destruction of so many
records, will always be much more problematic than French-Canadian
research. Therefore, it is more challenging. White has done a
wonderful job given the limited records.

JP

John P. DuLong

Re: French Canadian medieval ancestry in 2007

Legg inn av John P. DuLong » 06 mai 2007 15:14:42

I agree with Mr. Turcott that often if records are destroyed or missing,
then you can search and find similar records elsewhere that can be used
to prove a case. For example, the Catholic registers for Calvados were
badly damaged during the war, but the Protestant records were not in the
departmental archives at the time of the bombing and fortunately the Le
Neuf brothers who came to Canada turned out to be Huguenots.
Nevertheless, in some areas of France, the devastation of war was pretty
complete.

In contrast to France, I have been lucky helping my wife with her
Anglo-Irish ancestry because so many of the records that were destroyed
in 1922 were abstracted and published before the Irish Civil War. This
is particularly the case with the clergy of the Church of Ireland. This
gets back to what M. Beauregard mentioned, that is, that many indexing
projects and publications did not come about in France until after World
War II. So these records are lost for all time. We are indeed lucky
that Fr. Godbout was able to do research in France in the 1920s.

My father-in-law fought in Normandie during World War II. He told me
the loudest and most sustained sound he ever heard was the bombing of
towns between Coutances and St-Lo before the Americans swept south and
east towards Paris. As he told me this story all I could think of was
the destruction of records in these areas. Likewise, when I see on the
History Channel the British bombing of Caen to force the Nazis out I
have to wonder how many genealogical problems will go unsolved because
of the devastation reeked upon the Calvados departmental archives.

JP

Saluzzo

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Saluzzo » 06 mai 2007 16:37:45

I'm sorry but I' can't agree whit you.
First of all , the genealogies published in the website
http://www.genmatenostrum.com about the Mediterranean Nobility are full
of sources.

On the contrary, in the Sardimpex website there are NO sources AT ALL.

Second, I see nothing "strange" also in the roman genealogies you
mention: there also are referring to some reliable sources, like Mr.
Settipani's works, i.e.

Third, About the president of the Mediterranean Institute, at least is a
well known scholar and reputed member of the Italian aristocracy.

On the contrary the owner of Sardimpex site is a guy totally unknown to
the word of University or Italian Scholarship. As I can heard, is an
employee in a small primary school in Sardinia (the man who take care of
the school, I mean, cleaning rooms etc...). By the way, I have nothing
to say about people working cleaning a primary school but, how he can
pretend to "teach" Genealogy to every people in the Word?

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 1:15 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



oscan1@yahoo.com escreveu:
On May 5, 6:33 am, "Jack Baschon" <ebasche...@katamail.com> wrote:
I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian
genealogies: "Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del
Mediterraneo"http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems
in Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public. The
owner, a certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important
genalogical italian publisher, first of all by the publisher of the
"Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it is
emerged that this guy seem's to be completely uknown to the italian
and not italian world of scholars, university etc. and it is used to

copy the main part of his work from other sources (like the
"Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no
possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next future...

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are

sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any
of the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem
as soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
osc...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page

requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that

they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know

if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a

great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per
te:http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Videocorso di marketing: impara dagli esperti del settore come fare
* un marketing di successo per la tua attivita'
Clicca qui:http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?midb00&dU

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the link to the website. And thank you to everyone who
responded to my query. It's an increasing rare pleasure to deal with
intelligent, civilized people on the internet.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

I am very sorry to hear the news.
About the website on Mediterranean Nobility the president is: the 13th
duke of San Donato, marquis don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo prince's
of Santa Margherita, marquis's of Soragna wich in other instances I also
saw claiming be 30th or close baron of something. Here in gen-med he
posted two lines to a noble roman matron, one of them including two or
three generations in Carthago. What I mean is that Sardimpex I knew I
could trust.

OT- btw can somebody give me a clue who I shall adress in Italy to find
me copies or abstracts of 3 births (I do not need certificates) in
Napoli in the early XIX? I know dates and names; they were germans and
evangelic (could also go to a lutheran church) and the father was the
consul of Württemberg.

Thanks in advance,
Francisco


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
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kelly 6424

RE: No Credible Proof Queen Elizabeth II Is A Descendant Of

Legg inn av kelly 6424 » 06 mai 2007 17:17:57

Bravo!

This one made my Sunday!

KB Gray
NY

_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/defaul ... ineapril07

Cesare Patrignani

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Cesare Patrignani » 06 mai 2007 20:43:52

reputed member of the Italian aristocracy?
are you speaking seriously? Italian aristocracy? the family is completely
unknown......



"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1817.1178465901.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...


I'm sorry but I' can't agree whit you.
First of all , the genealogies published in the website
http://www.genmatenostrum.com about the Mediterranean Nobility are full
of sources.

On the contrary, in the Sardimpex website there are NO sources AT ALL.

Second, I see nothing "strange" also in the roman genealogies you
mention: there also are referring to some reliable sources, like Mr.
Settipani's works, i.e.

Third, About the president of the Mediterranean Institute, at least is a
well known scholar and reputed member of the Italian aristocracy.

On the contrary the owner of Sardimpex site is a guy totally unknown to
the word of University or Italian Scholarship. As I can heard, is an
employee in a small primary school in Sardinia (the man who take care of
the school, I mean, cleaning rooms etc...). By the way, I have nothing
to say about people working cleaning a primary school but, how he can
pretend to "teach" Genealogy to every people in the Word?

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 1:15 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



oscan1@yahoo.com escreveu:
On May 5, 6:33 am, "Jack Baschon" <ebasche...@katamail.com> wrote:
I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian
genealogies: "Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del
Mediterraneo"http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems
in Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public. The
owner, a certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important
genalogical italian publisher, first of all by the publisher of the
"Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it is
emerged that this guy seem's to be completely uknown to the italian
and not italian world of scholars, university etc. and it is used to

copy the main part of his work from other sources (like the
"Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no
possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next future...

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We are

sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any
of the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem
as soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
osc...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration page

requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears that

they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone know

if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be a

great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per
te:http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Videocorso di marketing: impara dagli esperti del settore come fare
* un marketing di successo per la tua attivita'
Clicca qui:http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?midb00&dU

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the link to the website. And thank you to everyone who
responded to my query. It's an increasing rare pleasure to deal with
intelligent, civilized people on the internet.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

I am very sorry to hear the news.
About the website on Mediterranean Nobility the president is: the 13th
duke of San Donato, marquis don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo prince's
of Santa Margherita, marquis's of Soragna wich in other instances I also
saw claiming be 30th or close baron of something. Here in gen-med he
posted two lines to a noble roman matron, one of them including two or
three generations in Carthago. What I mean is that Sardimpex I knew I
could trust.

OT- btw can somebody give me a clue who I shall adress in Italy to find
me copies or abstracts of 3 births (I do not need certificates) in
Napoli in the early XIX? I know dates and names; they were germans and
evangelic (could also go to a lutheran church) and the father was the
consul of Württemberg.

Thanks in advance,
Francisco


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
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D. Spencer Hines

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 06 mai 2007 21:18:09

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ue8s33909oupr553qa0npucnrkogue7o5a@4ax.com...

The Queen's death will cause worldwide sadness; "The End of an Era"
the newspapers will announce.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Indeed it will.

Many folks alive today have only known her as the British Monarch.

She has done an excellent job in her role as a Constitutional Monarch --
into which she was thrown in 1936, for training -- at the age of 10 -- by
Edward VIII's Abdication and her father's accession to the throne, as George
VI.

Her Coronation on 2 June 1953 was a Grand Affair -- as was her wedding on 20
November 1947.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Fortem Posce Animum

Britannicus Traductus Sum
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a poem used in British Schools to help children remember the line of
English Kings (from Victorian times)...The book, _KINGS AND QUEENS OF
BRITAIN: A Victorian Mnemonic or Learning verse_, is compiled and
illustrated by Frances and Rowan Barnes-Murphy. London: Pavilion Books,
Limited. 1995

Kings and Queens of Britain

William the Conqueror long did reign

William Rufus by arrow was slain

Henry I was a scholar, bright

Stephen was king without any right

Henry II Plantagenet's scion

Richard I was as brave as a lion

John though a tyrant the charter signed

Henry III had a weakly mind

Edward I conquered Cumbria's Danes

Edward II was crowned Prince of Wales

Edward III restored Scotia's pride

Richard II by Henry's hand died

Henry IV then wore the crown

Henry V pulled the French king down

Henry VI Lost the Roses and France

Edward IV led the Commons a dance

Edward V was slain by his brother

Richard III soon gave way to another

Henry VII was frugal of means

Henry VIII had too many queens

Edward VI Reformation began

Bloody Mary frustrated the plan

Wise and Profound were Elizabeth's ways

England and Scotland were joined under James

Charles found the people a cruel corrector

Oliver Cromwell became the Lord Protector

Charles II hid in an oak

James II took the Popery's yoke

William and Mary shared the throne

Good Queen Anne then reigned alone

George I from Hanover came

George II carried on the name

George III was loved in the land

George IV was pompous and grand

William IV had no heir of his own

So Good Queen Victoria came to the throne

Edward VII loved gambling and fun

George V reigned through World War I

Edward VIII gave his throne for a wife

George VI saw more World War and strife

Elizabeth II was crowned young and serene,

And the People still sing "God Save Our Queen."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"The last six lines bring it up to date."

"Maggie"

MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 06 mai 2007 21:35:24

Maybe YOU should think seriously BEFORE sit in front of your Computer
desk... And write!

Maybe you can read , i. e. , the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana"
about the family...

For your convenience I post the link here:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/Lu ... 0d'oro.pdf

Good reading!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cesare
Patrignani
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:44 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


reputed member of the Italian aristocracy?
are you speaking seriously? Italian aristocracy? the family is
completely
unknown......



"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1817.1178465901.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...


I'm sorry but I' can't agree whit you.
First of all , the genealogies published in the website
http://www.genmatenostrum.com about the Mediterranean Nobility are
full of sources.

On the contrary, in the Sardimpex website there are NO sources AT ALL.

Second, I see nothing "strange" also in the roman genealogies you
mention: there also are referring to some reliable sources, like Mr.
Settipani's works, i.e.

Third, About the president of the Mediterranean Institute, at least is

a well known scholar and reputed member of the Italian aristocracy.

On the contrary the owner of Sardimpex site is a guy totally unknown
to the word of University or Italian Scholarship. As I can heard, is
an employee in a small primary school in Sardinia (the man who take
care of the school, I mean, cleaning rooms etc...). By the way, I have

nothing to say about people working cleaning a primary school but, how

he can pretend to "teach" Genealogy to every people in the Word?

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 1:15 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



oscan1@yahoo.com escreveu:
On May 5, 6:33 am, "Jack Baschon" <ebasche...@katamail.com> wrote:
I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian
genealogies: "Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del
Mediterraneo"http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems
in Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public. The
owner, a certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important
genalogical italian publisher, first of all by the publisher of the

"Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it is
emerged that this guy seem's to be completely uknown to the italian

and not italian world of scholars, university etc. and it is used
to

copy the main part of his work from other sources (like the
"Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no
possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next
future...

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We
are

sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any

of the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem
as soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
osc...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration
page

requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears
that

they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone
know

if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be
a

great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per
te:http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Videocorso di marketing: impara dagli esperti del settore come
fare
* un marketing di successo per la tua attivita'
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-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide

quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the link to the website. And thank you to everyone who
responded to my query. It's an increasing rare pleasure to deal with
intelligent, civilized people on the internet.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

I am very sorry to hear the news.
About the website on Mediterranean Nobility the president is: the 13th

duke of San Donato, marquis don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo prince's

of Santa Margherita, marquis's of Soragna wich in other instances I
also saw claiming be 30th or close baron of something. Here in
gen-med he posted two lines to a noble roman matron, one of them
including two or three generations in Carthago. What I mean is that
Sardimpex I knew I could trust.

OT- btw can somebody give me a clue who I shall adress in Italy to
find me copies or abstracts of 3 births (I do not need certificates)
in Napoli in the early XIX? I know dates and names; they were germans
and evangelic (could also go to a lutheran church) and the father was
the consul of Württemberg.

Thanks in advance,
Francisco


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

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Tony Ingham

Re: Death Date for Elizabeth Wingfield

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 07 mai 2007 02:43:28

Robert,

I think you may find that the stated date of issue of the writ is
correct. The date can be verified by the entry in "Calendar of Fine
Rolls" and/or the I.P.M..

I have (without source) her date of death as 28 Mar 1497. Suggest you
check the Gen Med archives for previous discussions.

Tony Ingham



Robert Forrest wrote:
CP 12(1):454, Suffolk, footnote (c) tells us Elizabeth Wingfield, widow of
Sir William Brandon, died 28 Apr 1497, and her will of 1496 was proved 8 May
1497. George Moriarty, in his article, "The Brandons", NEHGR 103:103+
(1949), agrees with the date the will was proved, and summarizes Elizabeth's
will, citing Testa. Vetusta, Vol. II, p. 432.

Moriarty goes on:
"The Inq. Post Mortem of Elizabeth, late wife of Sir William Brandon. Writ
of _diem clausit extremum_ issued 11 Apr 12 Henry VII (1497). By her will
she devised lands...Elizabeth died 28 April 12 Henry VII (1496/7)."

Can a writ of _diem clausit extremum_ be issued *before* the death of the
person concerned, or is the 11 April date incorrect?




-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



Cesare Patrignani

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Cesare Patrignani » 07 mai 2007 20:26:49

which family? I find no family Lupis Macedonio Palermo principi di Santa
Margherita dei marchesi di Soragna in Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà
Italiana....



"MLS" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1838.1178483775.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Maybe YOU should think seriously BEFORE sit in front of your Computer
desk... And write!

Maybe you can read , i. e. , the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana"
about the family...

For your convenience I post the link here:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/Lu ... 0d'oro.pdf

Good reading!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cesare
Patrignani
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:44 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


reputed member of the Italian aristocracy?
are you speaking seriously? Italian aristocracy? the family is
completely
unknown......



"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1817.1178465901.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...



I'm sorry but I' can't agree whit you.
First of all , the genealogies published in the website
http://www.genmatenostrum.com about the Mediterranean Nobility are
full of sources.

On the contrary, in the Sardimpex website there are NO sources AT ALL.

Second, I see nothing "strange" also in the roman genealogies you
mention: there also are referring to some reliable sources, like Mr.
Settipani's works, i.e.

Third, About the president of the Mediterranean Institute, at least is

a well known scholar and reputed member of the Italian aristocracy.

On the contrary the owner of Sardimpex site is a guy totally unknown
to the word of University or Italian Scholarship. As I can heard, is
an employee in a small primary school in Sardinia (the man who take
care of the school, I mean, cleaning rooms etc...). By the way, I have

nothing to say about people working cleaning a primary school but, how

he can pretend to "teach" Genealogy to every people in the Word?

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 1:15 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



oscan1@yahoo.com escreveu:
On May 5, 6:33 am, "Jack Baschon" <ebasche...@katamail.com> wrote:
I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian
genealogies: "Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del
Mediterraneo"http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems
in Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public. The
owner, a certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important
genalogical italian publisher, first of all by the publisher of the

"Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it is
emerged that this guy seem's to be completely uknown to the italian

and not italian world of scholars, university etc. and it is used
to

copy the main part of his work from other sources (like the
"Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no
possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next
future...

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We
are

sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm any

of the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem
as soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
osc...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration
page

requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears
that

they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone
know

if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be
a

great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per
te:http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Videocorso di marketing: impara dagli esperti del settore come
fare
* un marketing di successo per la tua attivita'
Clicca qui:http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?midb00&dU

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide

quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the link to the website. And thank you to everyone who
responded to my query. It's an increasing rare pleasure to deal with
intelligent, civilized people on the internet.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

I am very sorry to hear the news.
About the website on Mediterranean Nobility the president is: the 13th

duke of San Donato, marquis don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo prince's

of Santa Margherita, marquis's of Soragna wich in other instances I
also saw claiming be 30th or close baron of something. Here in
gen-med he posted two lines to a noble roman matron, one of them
including two or three generations in Carthago. What I mean is that
Sardimpex I knew I could trust.

OT- btw can somebody give me a clue who I shall adress in Italy to
find me copies or abstracts of 3 births (I do not need certificates)
in Napoli in the early XIX? I know dates and names; they were germans
and evangelic (could also go to a lutheran church) and the father was
the consul of Württemberg.

Thanks in advance,
Francisco


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Prestiti e Finanziamenti con un semplice click, scopri subito se sei
finanziabile cliccando qui
Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid)10&de





MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 07 mai 2007 20:51:16

I'm really sorry for you if you got problems readings...
I attached the link whit the abstract of the "Libro d'oro" . If you WANT
to read you can read.

Please note: nobody wrote "principi di Santa Margherita" but "DEI
principi di Santa Margherita"

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cesare
Patrignani
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 9:27 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


which family? I find no family Lupis Macedonio Palermo principi di
Santa
Margherita dei marchesi di Soragna in Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà
Italiana....



"MLS" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1838.1178483775.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Maybe YOU should think seriously BEFORE sit in front of your Computer
desk... And write!

Maybe you can read , i. e. , the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana"
about the family...

For your convenience I post the link here:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/Lu ... 0d'oro.pdf

Good reading!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cesare
Patrignani
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:44 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


reputed member of the Italian aristocracy?
are you speaking seriously? Italian aristocracy? the family is
completely unknown......



"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1817.1178465901.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...



I'm sorry but I' can't agree whit you.
First of all , the genealogies published in the website
http://www.genmatenostrum.com about the Mediterranean Nobility are
full of sources.

On the contrary, in the Sardimpex website there are NO sources AT
ALL.

Second, I see nothing "strange" also in the roman genealogies you
mention: there also are referring to some reliable sources, like Mr.
Settipani's works, i.e.

Third, About the president of the Mediterranean Institute, at least
is

a well known scholar and reputed member of the Italian aristocracy.

On the contrary the owner of Sardimpex site is a guy totally unknown
to the word of University or Italian Scholarship. As I can heard, is
an employee in a small primary school in Sardinia (the man who take
care of the school, I mean, cleaning rooms etc...). By the way, I
have

nothing to say about people working cleaning a primary school but,
how

he can pretend to "teach" Genealogy to every people in the Word?

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 1:15 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



oscan1@yahoo.com escreveu:
On May 5, 6:33 am, "Jack Baschon" <ebasche...@katamail.com> wrote:
I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian
genealogies: "Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del
Mediterraneo"http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems

in Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public. The

owner, a certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important
genalogical italian publisher, first of all by the publisher of
the

"Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it is

emerged that this guy seem's to be completely uknown to the
italian

and not italian world of scholars, university etc. and it is used
to

copy the main part of his work from other sources (like the
"Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no

possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next
future...

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We
are

sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm
any

of the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem

as soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
osc...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration
page

requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears
that

they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone
know

if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be

a

great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per
te:http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Videocorso di marketing: impara dagli esperti del settore come
fare
* un marketing di successo per la tua attivita'
Clicca qui:http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?midb00&dU

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message-
Hide

quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the link to the website. And thank you to everyone who

responded to my query. It's an increasing rare pleasure to deal with

intelligent, civilized people on the internet.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

I am very sorry to hear the news.
About the website on Mediterranean Nobility the president is: the
13th

duke of San Donato, marquis don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo
prince's

of Santa Margherita, marquis's of Soragna wich in other instances I
also saw claiming be 30th or close baron of something. Here in
gen-med he posted two lines to a noble roman matron, one of them
including two or three generations in Carthago. What I mean is that
Sardimpex I knew I could trust.

OT- btw can somebody give me a clue who I shall adress in Italy to
find me copies or abstracts of 3 births (I do not need certificates)
in Napoli in the early XIX? I know dates and names; they were germans

and evangelic (could also go to a lutheran church) and the father was

the consul of Württemberg.

Thanks in advance,
Francisco


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without

the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Prestiti e Finanziamenti con un semplice click, scopri subito se sei
finanziabile cliccando qui Clicca qui:
http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid)10&de





Francisco Tavares de Alme

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Francisco Tavares de Alme » 07 mai 2007 22:12:30

As a portuguese from the lowest range of nobility I always had some
difficulties with the italian nobility. Portugal is - maybe was - an
independent country for nearly 900 years and the "fons honorum" was
one and only one. But that is not the point.

For me you may well be the 13th duca di San Donato, with the treatment
of marquis and rights to several other minor titles. Marco Luca
Lorenzo Rosario if I read well. I have more difficulties understanding
how a journalist and critic of art - whatever that really means -
without mention to any university degree becomes a reputed scholar
well known in cientific and university circles.
I also have difficulties to understand how someone who lived in Hong-
Kong not long ago, become president of an organization with adress in
a palace with your own name, nr. 1 of the street or Plaza or whatever
of the same name.

But I have no dificulties recognising some basic facts.
1. Davide Shamà and his website exist for a number of years and your
site is a flagrant copy of sardimpex.com not only formally but also in
some of the genealogies.
2. You have announced your site some time ago and its reopening
recently under the nick MLS that you are using now. Nothing wrong as
that may mean Marco Lupis Something. Unfortunately, under the nick MLS
you have signed in message 6 May 2007 21:35 As Jack, identifying
yourself with other nick "Jack Baschon" and imagination is not needed
to ascert that you are also "Saluzzo", btw a very old title of marquis
that I hope you are not claiming for yourself.
This use of different nicks only shows that you are pretending
something not clear and probably not nice.
3. While Davide Shamà has a long list of authentic collaborators -
amongst whom well known people like Cesare Patrignani and Herbert
Stoyan to refer only names known in this list - you have copied part
of those names to your site. In one particular instance - I do not
doubt that there are others - you have included a scholar who never
had any intercourse with you or your site. I do not post his name only
because I have no explicit authorization but, to your information, he
made a disclaim more than a month ago in his own list stating that he
never authorized your use of his name.

I have no idea if you are just trying to get donations or if there is
a scheme to lure people to pay for future publications of faked
genealogies or anything else that I can not imagine. But in my opinion
you are a crook, and no less crook if you are a real duke.

Best regards,
Francisco


MLS escreveu:
I'm really sorry for you if you got problems readings...
I attached the link whit the abstract of the "Libro d'oro" . If you WANT
to read you can read.

Please note: nobody wrote "principi di Santa Margherita" but "DEI
principi di Santa Margherita"

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cesare
Patrignani
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 9:27 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


which family? I find no family Lupis Macedonio Palermo principi di
Santa
Margherita dei marchesi di Soragna in Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà
Italiana....



"MLS" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1838.1178483775.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Maybe YOU should think seriously BEFORE sit in front of your Computer
desk... And write!

Maybe you can read , i. e. , the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana"
about the family...

For your convenience I post the link here:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/Lu ... 0d'oro.pdf

Good reading!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cesare
Patrignani
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:44 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


reputed member of the Italian aristocracy?
are you speaking seriously? Italian aristocracy? the family is
completely unknown......



"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1817.1178465901.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...



I'm sorry but I' can't agree whit you.
First of all , the genealogies published in the website
http://www.genmatenostrum.com about the Mediterranean Nobility are
full of sources.

On the contrary, in the Sardimpex website there are NO sources AT
ALL.

Second, I see nothing "strange" also in the roman genealogies you
mention: there also are referring to some reliable sources, like Mr.
Settipani's works, i.e.

Third, About the president of the Mediterranean Institute, at least
is

a well known scholar and reputed member of the Italian aristocracy.

On the contrary the owner of Sardimpex site is a guy totally unknown
to the word of University or Italian Scholarship. As I can heard, is
an employee in a small primary school in Sardinia (the man who take
care of the school, I mean, cleaning rooms etc...). By the way, I
have

nothing to say about people working cleaning a primary school but,
how

he can pretend to "teach" Genealogy to every people in the Word?

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 1:15 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



oscan1@yahoo.com escreveu:
On May 5, 6:33 am, "Jack Baschon" <ebasche...@katamail.com> wrote:
I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian
genealogies: "Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del
Mediterraneo"http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal problems

in Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public. The

owner, a certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important
genalogical italian publisher, first of all by the publisher of
the

"Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it is

emerged that this guy seem's to be completely uknown to the
italian

and not italian world of scholars, university etc. and it is used
to

copy the main part of his work from other sources (like the
"Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see no

possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next
future...

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We
are

sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm
any

of the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still have
technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the probem

as soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
osc...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires
registration before the data can be accessed. The registration
page

requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears
that

they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone
know

if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will be

a

great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per
te:http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Videocorso di marketing: impara dagli esperti del settore come
fare
* un marketing di successo per la tua attivita'
Clicca qui:http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?midb00&dU

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message-
Hide

quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the link to the website. And thank you to everyone who

responded to my query. It's an increasing rare pleasure to deal with

intelligent, civilized people on the internet.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

I am very sorry to hear the news.
About the website on Mediterranean Nobility the president is: the
13th

duke of San Donato, marquis don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo
prince's

of Santa Margherita, marquis's of Soragna wich in other instances I
also saw claiming be 30th or close baron of something. Here in
gen-med he posted two lines to a noble roman matron, one of them
including two or three generations in Carthago. What I mean is that
Sardimpex I knew I could trust.

OT- btw can somebody give me a clue who I shall adress in Italy to
find me copies or abstracts of 3 births (I do not need certificates)
in Napoli in the early XIX? I know dates and names; they were germans

and evangelic (could also go to a lutheran church) and the father was

the consul of Württemberg.

Thanks in advance,
Francisco


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without

the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

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finanziabile cliccando qui Clicca qui:
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Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 07 mai 2007 23:32:40

"Francisco Tavares de Almeida" <francisco.tavaresdealmeida@gmail.com> wrote
in message news:1178572350.372028.269620@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
As a portuguese from the lowest range of nobility I always had some
difficulties with the italian nobility. Portugal is - maybe was - an
independent country for nearly 900 years and the "fons honorum"
was one and only one. But that is not the point.

For me you may well be the 13th duca di San Donato, with the
treatment of marquis and rights to several other minor titles. Marco
Luca Lorenzo Rosario if I read well. I have more difficulties
understanding how a journalist and critic of art - whatever that really
means - without mention to any university degree becomes a reputed
scholar well known in cientific and university circles.

<snip>

I have no idea if you are just trying to get donations or if there is
a scheme to lure people to pay for future publications of faked
genealogies or anything else that I can not imagine. But in my
opinion you are a crook, and no less crook if you are a real duke.

It's not clear from the 'Libro d'oro' entry that anyone in this family can
be the 13th duke of San Donato, much less a younger son. Unless the father
and geologist elder brother are both dead, how would he hold the title with
ordinal, even if these claims are genuine for his family? However, it is
clear that this is not one of any great distinction at any time in its
alleged history, to say nothing of its unsubstantiated ancient nobility or
descent from the Obertenghi.

More interesting than this dim record, from a genealogical point of view,
might be the apparent crook's maternal link to the family of Capone.

Peter Stewart

MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 08 mai 2007 00:34:42

Dear Francisco, many thanks for your message. BTW, you are free to think
and believe whatever you like. But I'll reply to your "charges", just to
be clear.

- Unfortunately for you, I really live in our family Palace in South of
Italy. If you will come around, you'll be my appreciate guest. The Lupis
Palace belong from our family at least since 4/5 centuries. And our
Palace is in a place dedicated to one of our ancestors and it host a
Foundation "Istituto per lo Studio dei Ceti Dirigenti del Mediterraneo"
whit a 6.000 - books library. Believe it or not, ... this is ONLY YOUR
problem.

As professional journalist, foreign correspondent from the Far East,
based in Hong Kong, I used to live many years there. I cant' see why me
and my family could not own our family House in Italy in the same time
(!?). Considering also that I decided to come back to Italy some years
ago, precisely to promote the restoration of the Palace and the birth
of our Foundation (Istituto etc.), after my mother death (the last
duchess of San Donato etc. , BTW...).

- The abstract of the "Libro d'oro" it is dated 1989. Now we are in
2007.

- I ignore if the collaborators of sardimpex site are really or fake. I
assumed Cesare Patrignani is real, because he share the same Shamà
-"style"... (!!)
And, following the same "style", you could also be an other of
his "collaborator"... In my humble opinion.

- In our site http://www.genmarenostrum.com, we never stated any
"Collaborator List", because we only have a "Scientific Publishing
Committee" who's members - believe me, are really REAL! All friends of
mine. As we not state any "collaborator" I can't see how we should have
"copied" (as you wrote..) any name. Could you please send me a private
email whit the name of this gentleman you mention? As I told you, we
don't publish collaborator lists. We only report a list of
"Ringraziamenti" , to thanks people that helped us in our activity,
particularly sending genealogies etc. I don't think that someone could
be mentioned in this list if he don't really helped us or sent
something. But as I'm not the only one that organize this list of
"Ringraziamenti", once again please tell me privately, if you prefer,
the name of this gentleman. If true...

- We don't need to "copy" anything form anywhere. We are perfectly able
to study and publish studies and genealogies on our own. Unfortunately
Mr. Shamà and "his friends" cannot pretend to have the "exclusive" of
the genealogical material in the world and/or in the Web. Genealogies,
particurally if concerning the major historical families, are all the
same. Nobody can pretend to keep nothing about them!

- About the last part of your message ... Thanks for the "crook". You
will take full responsibility on everything you wrote.

Regards

Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo di Santa Margherita


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 11:13 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


As a portuguese from the lowest range of nobility I always had some
difficulties with the italian nobility. Portugal is - maybe was - an
independent country for nearly 900 years and the "fons honorum" was one
and only one. But that is not the point.

For me you may well be the 13th duca di San Donato, with the treatment
of marquis and rights to several other minor titles. Marco Luca Lorenzo
Rosario if I read well. I have more difficulties understanding how a
journalist and critic of art - whatever that really means - without
mention to any university degree becomes a reputed scholar well known in
cientific and university circles. I also have difficulties to understand
how someone who lived in Hong- Kong not long ago, become president of an
organization with adress in a palace with your own name, nr. 1 of the
street or Plaza or whatever of the same name.

But I have no dificulties recognising some basic facts.
1. Davide Shamà and his website exist for a number of years and your
site is a flagrant copy of sardimpex.com not only formally but also in
some of the genealogies. 2. You have announced your site some time ago
and its reopening recently under the nick MLS that you are using now.
Nothing wrong as that may mean Marco Lupis Something. Unfortunately,
under the nick MLS you have signed in message 6 May 2007 21:35 As Jack,
identifying yourself with other nick "Jack Baschon" and imagination is
not needed to ascert that you are also "Saluzzo", btw a very old title
of marquis that I hope you are not claiming for yourself. This use of
different nicks only shows that you are pretending something not clear
and probably not nice. 3. While Davide Shamà has a long list of
authentic collaborators - amongst whom well known people like Cesare
Patrignani and Herbert Stoyan to refer only names known in this list -
you have copied part of those names to your site. In one particular
instance - I do not doubt that there are others - you have included a
scholar who never had any intercourse with you or your site. I do not
post his name only because I have no explicit authorization but, to your
information, he made a disclaim more than a month ago in his own list
stating that he never authorized your use of his name.

I have no idea if you are just trying to get donations or if there is a
scheme to lure people to pay for future publications of faked
genealogies or anything else that I can not imagine. But in my opinion
you are a crook, and no less crook if you are a real duke.

Best regards,
Francisco


MLS escreveu:
I'm really sorry for you if you got problems readings...
I attached the link whit the abstract of the "Libro d'oro" . If you
WANT to read you can read.

Please note: nobody wrote "principi di Santa Margherita" but "DEI
principi di Santa Margherita"

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cesare
Patrignani
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 9:27 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


which family? I find no family Lupis Macedonio Palermo principi di
Santa Margherita dei marchesi di Soragna in Libro d'Oro della
Nobiltà Italiana....



"MLS" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1838.1178483775.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Maybe YOU should think seriously BEFORE sit in front of your
Computer desk... And write!

Maybe you can read , i. e. , the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà
Italiana" about the family...

For your convenience I post the link here:
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/Lu ... 0d'oro.pdf

Good reading!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cesare
Patrignani
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:44 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


reputed member of the Italian aristocracy?
are you speaking seriously? Italian aristocracy? the family is
completely unknown......



"Saluzzo" <saluzzos@email.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:mailman.1817.1178465901.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...



I'm sorry but I' can't agree whit you.
First of all , the genealogies published in the website
http://www.genmatenostrum.com about the Mediterranean Nobility are
full of sources.

On the contrary, in the Sardimpex website there are NO sources AT
ALL.

Second, I see nothing "strange" also in the roman genealogies you
mention: there also are referring to some reliable sources, like
Mr. Settipani's works, i.e.

Third, About the president of the Mediterranean Institute, at least

is

a well known scholar and reputed member of the Italian aristocracy.

On the contrary the owner of Sardimpex site is a guy totally
unknown to the word of University or Italian Scholarship. As I can
heard, is an employee in a small primary school in Sardinia (the
man who take care of the school, I mean, cleaning rooms etc...). By

the way, I have

nothing to say about people working cleaning a primary school but,
how

he can pretend to "teach" Genealogy to every people in the Word?

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 1:15 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



oscan1@yahoo.com escreveu:
On May 5, 6:33 am, "Jack Baschon" <ebasche...@katamail.com> wrote:
I all!

There also are this site when you can find lot of italian
genealogies: "Genealogie dele Famiglie Nobili del
Mediterraneo"http://www.genmarenostrum.com

Jack



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com

[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Saluzzo
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:47 AM
To: 'jluc soler'; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

As I can heard, the truth is very much different!
It seem's that the owner of the site got some major legal
problems

in Italy and it was forced to avoid his site to remain public.
The

owner, a certain mr. Shamà, as been sued by many important
genalogical italian publisher, first of all by the publisher of
the

"Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana". Due of this legal pursue, it
is

emerged that this guy seem's to be completely uknown to the
italian

and not italian world of scholars, university etc. and it is
used to

copy the main part of his work from other sources (like the
"Annuario etc.).

At the moment, considering the legal situation I resumed, I see
no

possibility to see the site sardimpex.com in the very next
future...

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jluc
soler
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:09 AM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about thewww.sardimpex.comwebsite

i had an answer from davide shama, the owner of this site

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the interest you showed for our exclusive website. We

are

sorry to inform that, at the moment, we are not able to confirm
any

of the applicants who are not resident in Italy, as we still
have technical problems with the program. We hope to resolve the

probem

as soon as possible.

Best regards.

Davide Shamà
osc...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1178347505.961156.43...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I noticed that the great site for Italian noble genealogy
(http://www.sardimplex. com) is back on-line. However, it now requires

registration before the data can be accessed. The registration
page

requires an Italian address and telephone number so it appears
that

they don't want non-Italians to access their data. Does anyone
know

if

the site's owners intend to keep it restricted? If so, it will
be

a

great loss to those of us interested in Italian historical
genealogy.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per
te:http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Videocorso di marketing: impara dagli esperti del settore come
fare
* un marketing di successo per la tua attivita'
Clicca qui:http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?midb00&dU

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message-
Hide

quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you for the link to the website. And thank you to everyone
who

responded to my query. It's an increasing rare pleasure to deal
with

intelligent, civilized people on the internet.

Robert S. Rizzolo
researchitaly.us

I am very sorry to hear the news.
About the website on Mediterranean Nobility the president is: the
13th

duke of San Donato, marquis don Marco Lupis Macedonio Palermo
prince's

of Santa Margherita, marquis's of Soragna wich in other instances I

also saw claiming be 30th or close baron of something. Here in
gen-med he posted two lines to a noble roman matron, one of them
including two or three generations in Carthago. What I mean is
that Sardimpex I knew I could trust.

OT- btw can somebody give me a clue who I shall adress in Italy to

find me copies or abstracts of 3 births (I do not need
certificates) in Napoli in the early XIX? I know dates and names;
they were germans

and evangelic (could also go to a lutheran church) and the father
was

the consul of Württemberg.

Thanks in advance,
Francisco


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without

the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



--
Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te:
http://www.email.it/f

Sponsor:
Prestiti e Finanziamenti con un semplice click, scopri subito se
sei finanziabile cliccando qui Clicca qui:
http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid)10&de







-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 mai 2007 01:01:25

On May 8, 9:34 am, "MLS" <mlu...@genmarenostrum.com> wrote:
Dear Francisco, many thanks for your message. BTW, you are free to think
and believe whatever you like. But I'll reply to your "charges", just to
be clear.

- Unfortunately for you, I really live in our family Palace in South of
Italy. If you will come around, you'll be my appreciate guest. The Lupis
Palace belong from our family at least since 4/5 centuries. And our
Palace is in a place dedicated to one of our ancestors and it host a
Foundation "Istituto per lo Studio dei Ceti Dirigenti del Mediterraneo"
whit a 6.000 - books library. Believe it or not, ... this is ONLY YOUR
problem.

Ah - and would you perhaps be the Italian "duke" who misinformed Pip
Phillips about the contents of one of the books in his library? If you
mean the Palazzo Lupis on Corso Italia in Ragusa, as an 18th-century
building this is not old enough to have been owned by anyone for 4/5
centuries. Perhaps you mean the site has belonged to your family for
that long - or perhaps you are merely exaggerating for effect.

As professional journalist, foreign correspondent from the Far East,
based in Hong Kong, I used to live many years there. I cant' see why me
and my family could not own our family House in Italy in the same time
(!?). Considering also that I decided to come back to Italy some years
ago, precisely to promote the restoration of the Palace and the birth
of our Foundation (Istituto etc.), after my mother death (the last
duchess of San Donato etc. , BTW...).

This was a title in the Capone family? Did Al ever hold it?

Peter Stewart

MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 08 mai 2007 01:34:19

I'm sorry but I assumed you can be able to read italian, but now I'm not
so sure... No offense.

-The Palace you are mentioned in "Corso Italia" in Ragusa (a town in
Sicily), belong to the Sicilian branch of our family and it was sold
some decades ago

- The Palace or our branch, where we used to live, is in Calabria (also
in South of Italy). You can see some information about it in the family
site http://www.genmarenostrum.com(mlupis/lupis.html (home page) and
parcularry in this page
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/rami%20vitali.htm (Chapter:La linea
Calabrese) For your convenience, this is one picture of one of the
library rooms ,
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/553/ ... ssa1du.jpg and
this is a Main gate picture
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/113/imga02604sq.jpg
The Lupis Palace in Calabria, Grotteria can also be found in the city
official site, http://www.grotteriaonline.com in the "Monumenti" and
"Personaggi" sections .

- Oh, you are very-very-very funny ...(!) but the San Donato title
belong from the Sanseverino family.


- I'm sorry but ...What are you meaning here??? "who misinformed Pip
Phillips about the contents of one of the books in his library"??

Finally, may I ask you a question: how old you are?

M

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:01 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


On May 8, 9:34 am, "MLS" <mlu...@genmarenostrum.com> wrote:
Dear Francisco, many thanks for your message. BTW, you are free to
think and believe whatever you like. But I'll reply to your "charges",

just to be clear.

- Unfortunately for you, I really live in our family Palace in South
of Italy. If you will come around, you'll be my appreciate guest. The
Lupis Palace belong from our family at least since 4/5 centuries. And
our Palace is in a place dedicated to one of our ancestors and it host

a Foundation "Istituto per lo Studio dei Ceti Dirigenti del
Mediterraneo" whit a 6.000 - books library. Believe it or not, ...
this is ONLY YOUR problem.

Ah - and would you perhaps be the Italian "duke" who misinformed Pip
Phillips about the contents of one of the books in his library? If you
mean the Palazzo Lupis on Corso Italia in Ragusa, as an 18th-century
building this is not old enough to have been owned by anyone for 4/5
centuries. Perhaps you mean the site has belonged to your family for
that long - or perhaps you are merely exaggerating for effect.

As professional journalist, foreign correspondent from the Far East,
based in Hong Kong, I used to live many years there. I cant' see why
me and my family could not own our family House in Italy in the same
time (!?). Considering also that I decided to come back to Italy some
years ago, precisely to promote the restoration of the Palace and the

birth of our Foundation (Istituto etc.), after my mother death (the
last duchess of San Donato etc. , BTW...).

This was a title in the Capone family? Did Al ever hold it?

Peter Stewart


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Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 mai 2007 02:25:56

On May 8, 10:34 am, "MLS" <mlu...@genmarenostrum.com> wrote:
I'm sorry but I assumed you can be able to read italian, but now I'm not
so sure... No offense.

-The Palace you are mentioned in "Corso Italia" in Ragusa (a town in
Sicily), belong to the Sicilian branch of our family and it was sold
some decades ago

- The Palace or our branch, where we used to live, is in Calabria (also
in South of Italy). You can see some information about it in the family
sitehttp://www.genmarenostrum.com(mlupi ... .html(home page) and
parcularry in this pagehttp://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupi ... Chapter:La linea
Calabrese) For your convenience, this is one picture of one of the
library rooms ,http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/553/scorciobibliotecabassa1du.jpgand
this is a Main gate picturehttp://img262.imageshack.us/img2 ... 2604sq.jpg
The Lupis Palace in Calabria, Grotteria can also be found in the city
official site,http://www.grotteriaonline.comin the "Monumenti" and
"Personaggi" sections .

- Oh, you are very-very-very funny ...(!) but the San Donato title
belong from the Sanseverino family.

According to the Wikipedia article on San Donato, the branch of the
Sanseverino family that held this became extinct in 1654, whereupon it
was confiscated and sold at auction. The Ametrano and Campolongo
families then held it. No mention of the Capones, in Calabria or
Chicago, certainly nothing to connect them genealogically to the
Sanseverino family as your post implies.

- I'm sorry but ...What are you meaning here??? "who misinformed Pip
Phillips about the contents of one of the books in his library"??

Phillips claimed to have information (that turned out to be false)
from an Italian duke whose library contained Pigna's book with a
legendary pedigree of the Estensi.

Finally, may I ask you a question: how old you are?

Old enough to recognise inanity, pomposity and pretense from far too
much experience of these in medieval genealogy.

Peter Stewart

WJhonson

Re: de Cloville origins

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 mai 2007 03:28:06

It would be best if you posted some information first that we could comment on. Your request is a bit vague.



In a message dated 05/07/07 17:19:50 Pacific Standard Time, stursa@695online.com writes:
I've been trying to track down the origins of this family, which resided
in Essex from at least the early thirteenth century. I've run across a few
references to them from earlier, but nothing that really indicates their
specific origins.

Any information would be appreciated.

- SLS


--
Scott L. Stursa
CCNA, MCSA, Security+

-------------------------------
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Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: de Cloville origins

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 08 mai 2007 07:23:13

They do not appear in the rolls of arms of the reign of Edward I (d
1307), so I presume a later import or very minor gentry.

MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 08 mai 2007 11:29:32

1) Now I can understand why you trust sardimpex .... You are talking
about ... Wikipedia (!) Are you ever used to refer to REPUTATED sources?

To be serious, I never disputed the Ametrano-Campolongo succession.
First of all the San Donato "feudo" was non "confiscated". After the
death of the last direct (young) duchess of San Donato, Anna Sanseverino
(at the age of 9), San Donato has been sold by the Crown of Naples to
the Ametrano family. But Mario Sanseverino, the nearest cousin of
duchess Anna, clime it for himself, referring to an old "privilegio"
accorded and confirmed many times to the Sanseverinos. My late mother
descend directly from Mario Sanseverino (after six generations) , as you
can see here
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/storia/Su ... onato.html
This genealogy is fully documented, and whit "Regio Decreto" on 5th
October 1888 those rights was recognized by the former Kingdom of Italy.
(see: "Genealogia di Ercole Sanseverino, barone di Calvera, e suoi
discendenti", Napoli 1902, and "Illustrazioni dell'albero genealogico
della famiglia Cianci di Leo Sanseverino", Napoli 1906)

For those reasons, now we can say that, today, there are two legal
claiming for the San Donato title, both legal and recognized. The first
refer to the Ametrano-Campolongo descendants, that BOUGHT the title,
without any "blood" relation whit the Sanseverinos.

The second refer to the (Mario) Samseverino-del Mercato-Lebano
descendants, that INHERITED the title by direct "blood" line whit the
Sanseverinos.

As I already told you, the Capone family it is not involved in this
claiming. Just to reply to your very stupid and not funny "joke" about
the name of the family, the noble Capone family from whom belong the
grand-mother of my mother as nothing to do whit the famous "Al"
(fortunately for you...) at least at my knowledge. Is a minor nobility
family from south of Italy, coming form Ariano Irpino (SA), and also
included in the "Libro d'Oro".

2) I'm not the same duke you are talking about. I'm afraid for your
friend, but (unfortunately, because is a very old and precious book,
published in Ferrara on 1570) I never had in my library the Alfredo
Pigna book about the Estensi genealogy. But if your friend can be
interested, in my library I have a slime but very interesting book that
include a full analysis of the Pigna's Estensi genealogy: Gian Luca
Gregori, "Genealogie Estensi e falsificazione epigrafica", in "Opuscula
Epigrafica dell'Università degli Studi di Roma - La Sapienza,
Dipartimento di Scienze Storiche Archeologiche Antropologiche
dell'Antichità", 1 1990."
At page 27, there also are a genealogical table: "I capostipiti di Casa
d'Este secondo la genealogia del Pigna".


3) I don't think so ... You write (and think, for sure) like and
arrogant, probably too young ..., insolent guy. All reasons far enough
to include you between the "collaborators" of sadimpex site.

Regards

M




-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:26 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


On May 8, 10:34 am, "MLS" <mlu...@genmarenostrum.com> wrote:
I'm sorry but I assumed you can be able to read italian, but now I'm
not so sure... No offense.

-The Palace you are mentioned in "Corso Italia" in Ragusa (a town in
Sicily), belong to the Sicilian branch of our family and it was sold
some decades ago

- The Palace or our branch, where we used to live, is in Calabria
(also in South of Italy). You can see some information about it in the

family sitehttp://www.genmarenostrum.com(mlupi ... .html(home page)
and parcularry in this
pagehttp://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupi ... Chapter:La
linea
Calabrese) For your convenience, this is one picture of one of the
library rooms
,http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/553/scorciobibliotecabassa1du.jpgand
this is a Main gate
picturehttp://img262.imageshack.us/img2 ... 2604sq.jpg
The Lupis Palace in Calabria, Grotteria can also be found in the city
official site,http://www.grotteriaonline.comin the "Monumenti" and
"Personaggi" sections .

- Oh, you are very-very-very funny ...(!) but the San Donato title
belong from the Sanseverino family.

According to the Wikipedia article on San Donato, the branch of the
Sanseverino family that held this became extinct in 1654, whereupon it
was confiscated and sold at auction. The Ametrano and Campolongo
families then held it. No mention of the Capones, in Calabria or
Chicago, certainly nothing to connect them genealogically to the
Sanseverino family as your post implies.

- I'm sorry but ...What are you meaning here??? "who misinformed Pip
Phillips about the contents of one of the books in his library"??

Phillips claimed to have information (that turned out to be false) from
an Italian duke whose library contained Pigna's book with a legendary
pedigree of the Estensi.

Finally, may I ask you a question: how old you are?

Old enough to recognise inanity, pomposity and pretense from far too
much experience of these in medieval genealogy.

Peter Stewart


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 mai 2007 13:27:58

"MLS" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1890.1178620220.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
1) Now I can understand why you trust sardimpex .... You are talking
about ... Wikipedia (!) Are you ever used to refer to REPUTATED sources?

Um, I have never said anything at all about "sardimpex" - in fact, I have
never even seen it. And I have not said that I "trust" Wikipedia, I simply
reported what it said on a particular subject, that you evidently don't
dispute.

To be serious, I never disputed the Ametrano-Campolongo succession.
First of all the San Donato "feudo" was non "confiscated". After the
death of the last direct (young) duchess of San Donato, Anna Sanseverino
(at the age of 9), San Donato has been sold by the Crown of Naples to
the Ametrano family. But Mario Sanseverino, the nearest cousin of
duchess Anna, clime it for himself, referring to an old "privilegio"
accorded and confirmed many times to the Sanseverinos. My late mother
descend directly from Mario Sanseverino (after six generations) , as you
can see here
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/storia/Su ... onato.html
This genealogy is fully documented, and whit "Regio Decreto" on 5th
October 1888 those rights was recognized by the former Kingdom of Italy.
(see: "Genealogia di Ercole Sanseverino, barone di Calvera, e suoi
discendenti", Napoli 1902, and "Illustrazioni dell'albero genealogico
della famiglia Cianci di Leo Sanseverino", Napoli 1906)

For those reasons, now we can say that, today, there are two legal
claiming for the San Donato title, both legal and recognized. The first
refer to the Ametrano-Campolongo descendants, that BOUGHT the title,
without any "blood" relation whit the Sanseverinos.

The second refer to the (Mario) Samseverino-del Mercato-Lebano
descendants, that INHERITED the title by direct "blood" line whit the
Sanseverinos.

How can someone "inherit" a title that has been sold off - by the monarchy
that granted it in the first place - to someone else? If the claimed
inheritance was not recognised, it fails. The Sanseverino family might
distribute its extant titles to cadet branches, but it can't recreate them
once extinct by disputing the interpretation of alleged past grants with the
monarch of the day. What authority in the kingdom of the Two Sicilies upheld
the inheeritance of the San Donato title? If none, then a decree by the
former kingdom of Italy was a new grant of a new title, and you are not the
13th duke.

In any case, in this

http://www.grotteriaonline.com/grotteri ... uporum.pdf

you claim also to be the 11th duke, while your mother is suppsed to be the
11th duchess. Can't dukes count?

On this evidence they can't do genealogy - the claimed descent of the
Staufer in male line from St Arnulf is fictitious, and indeed utterly
absurd. CHarles Martel's son Grifo did NOT have a son named Frederic of
Lansleburg, and the next five generations are imaginary. Your
great-grandfather Carlo Carucci would be ashamed of such poor scholarship.
Goodness only knows what Tasso might say.

As I already told you, the Capone family it is not involved in this
claiming. Just to reply to your very stupid and not funny "joke" about
the name of the family, the noble Capone family from whom belong the
grand-mother of my mother as nothing to do whit the famous "Al"
(fortunately for you...) at least at my knowledge. Is a minor nobility
family from south of Italy, coming form Ariano Irpino (SA), and also
included in the "Libro d'Oro".

2) I'm not the same duke you are talking about. I'm afraid for your
friend, but (unfortunately, because is a very old and precious book,
published in Ferrara on 1570) I never had in my library the Alfredo
Pigna book about the Estensi genealogy. But if your friend can be
interested, in my library I have a slime but very interesting book that
include a full analysis of the Pigna's Estensi genealogy: Gian Luca
Gregori, "Genealogie Estensi e falsificazione epigrafica", in "Opuscula
Epigrafica dell'Università degli Studi di Roma - La Sapienza,
Dipartimento di Scienze Storiche Archeologiche Antropologiche
dell'Antichità", 1 1990."
At page 27, there also are a genealogical table: "I capostipiti di Casa
d'Este secondo la genealogia del Pigna".

Pip Phillips is no friend of mine, he (or she) is just a teller of tawdry
lies who popped up here recently.

3) I don't think so ... You write (and think, for sure) like and
arrogant, probably too young ..., insolent guy. All reasons far enough
to include you between the "collaborators" of sadimpex site.

Again sardimpex - to repeat, I have nothing to do with this, nothing to say
about it, and I know nothing of it apart from the comments made here over
the past few days. It doesn't interest me. Bombastic, futile claims, poor
genealogical scholarship and attempts to fleece the unwary do concern me,
and that is why my attention has been drawn to you.

Peter Stewart

MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 08 mai 2007 14:48:10

Please, listen to me carefully, Peter Stewart (or whatever could
possibly be your real name and your real age...)

I think that I spent enough time trying to explain to you and answer in
a most civil and polite manner!

On the contrary you attacked me from the first moment in the MOST
Impolite, aggressive, arrogant manner.

I'm not interested to sped much of my time whit a person that
demonstrate enough not to know the most basilar rules of civil
discussion.

If you want continue this discussion in an acceptable "style" I can
agree. In other case, not.

1) I'm glad to read that you are nothing to do whit sardimpex. I'm glad
for you, I mean...
I simply assumed you can be part of the "sardimpex Clan" because of your
"style" , as I already told you, and because you post in this Topic.

2) The decree of the Former Kingdom of Italy to whom I referred, it was
not a "grant of new title". On the contrary it vas a decree that clearly
"recognize" the right of my mother's ancestors claming on the duke of
San Donato title coming from the Sanseverino family. It is quite much
different. In other words, is not a "concession" decree but a
"recognition" decree.

As I repeat once again, we never disputed the rights of the peoples
descending from the one Ametrano's that BOUGHT the title. We simply
state our rights to the same title for a direct lineage, recognized by
the 5th October 1888 decree. That last cannot be disputed.

3) I noticed that, when you have no more arguments to attack me, you go
and find a new one (!) ... like this last about the grotteriaonline.com
site.
Strange.... But, in any case, go ahead. First of all I'm only indicate
the site only to see our family palace pictures. Not for the full
contents.
The page you are referring to is not a work of mine and can include some
errors, like the count of the title holder you found.
About our alleged lineage from Frederic of Lansleburg, for your
happiness, I could agree whit you. It is part of the "tradition" in the
story of the family that the author of the site liked to report.
If you are seriously interested to see an official story of our family,
you must check the official family site I already told you
(http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/lupis.html). For an official
genealogy of the many branches of our family you must check here
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-le ... dice%20Lup
is.html . As clearly stated there, those are the only official
genealogies of the family, based on the original documents kept in the
archive of the marquises, late princes Lupi of Soragna, in the "Rocca of
Soragna", near Parma.
About the older part of those genealogies I can prevent your
"objections": the genealogy of the "Virii Lupi" Roman family is all
based on the Settipani's works. Same for the genealogy of the
descendants of Saint Lupus, bishop of Troyes in the V century. The
genealogy connecting us to an alleged brother of this last Saint Lupus
it is based on a work of a XVII century genealogist, and only in a small
part can be verified.

Our documented genealogies star from the first marquis de Lupis of
Soragna, granted in a VIII century "pergamena" still kept in the same
archive.

Once again, if you are interested to pursue this discussion in a civil
manner, I can agree. On the contrary, I' will no longer interested to
discuss whit someone that insult me.

Regards
M

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:28 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



"MLS" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1890.1178620220.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
1) Now I can understand why you trust sardimpex .... You are talking
about ... Wikipedia (!) Are you ever used to refer to REPUTATED
sources?

Um, I have never said anything at all about "sardimpex" - in fact, I
have
never even seen it. And I have not said that I "trust" Wikipedia, I
simply
reported what it said on a particular subject, that you evidently don't
dispute.

To be serious, I never disputed the Ametrano-Campolongo succession.
First of all the San Donato "feudo" was non "confiscated". After the
death of the last direct (young) duchess of San Donato, Anna
Sanseverino (at the age of 9), San Donato has been sold by the Crown
of Naples to the Ametrano family. But Mario Sanseverino, the nearest
cousin of duchess Anna, clime it for himself, referring to an old
"privilegio" accorded and confirmed many times to the Sanseverinos. My

late mother descend directly from Mario Sanseverino (after six
generations) , as you can see here
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/storia/Su ... onato.html
This genealogy is fully documented, and whit "Regio Decreto" on 5th
October 1888 those rights was recognized by the former Kingdom of
Italy.
(see: "Genealogia di Ercole Sanseverino, barone di Calvera, e suoi
discendenti", Napoli 1902, and "Illustrazioni dell'albero genealogico
della famiglia Cianci di Leo Sanseverino", Napoli 1906)

For those reasons, now we can say that, today, there are two legal
claiming for the San Donato title, both legal and recognized. The
first refer to the Ametrano-Campolongo descendants, that BOUGHT the
title, without any "blood" relation whit the Sanseverinos.

The second refer to the (Mario) Samseverino-del Mercato-Lebano
descendants, that INHERITED the title by direct "blood" line whit the
Sanseverinos.

How can someone "inherit" a title that has been sold off - by the
monarchy
that granted it in the first place - to someone else? If the claimed
inheritance was not recognised, it fails. The Sanseverino family might
distribute its extant titles to cadet branches, but it can't recreate
them
once extinct by disputing the interpretation of alleged past grants with
the
monarch of the day. What authority in the kingdom of the Two Sicilies
upheld
the inheeritance of the San Donato title? If none, then a decree by the
former kingdom of Italy was a new grant of a new title, and you are not
the
13th duke.

In any case, in this

http://www.grotteriaonline.com/grotteri ... ria_Stirpe
_Luporum.pdf

you claim also to be the 11th duke, while your mother is suppsed to be
the
11th duchess. Can't dukes count?

On this evidence they can't do genealogy - the claimed descent of the
Staufer in male line from St Arnulf is fictitious, and indeed utterly
absurd. CHarles Martel's son Grifo did NOT have a son named Frederic of
Lansleburg, and the next five generations are imaginary. Your
great-grandfather Carlo Carucci would be ashamed of such poor
scholarship.
Goodness only knows what Tasso might say.

As I already told you, the Capone family it is not involved in this
claiming. Just to reply to your very stupid and not funny "joke" about

the name of the family, the noble Capone family from whom belong the
grand-mother of my mother as nothing to do whit the famous "Al"
(fortunately for you...) at least at my knowledge. Is a minor nobility

family from south of Italy, coming form Ariano Irpino (SA), and also
included in the "Libro d'Oro".

2) I'm not the same duke you are talking about. I'm afraid for your
friend, but (unfortunately, because is a very old and precious book,
published in Ferrara on 1570) I never had in my library the Alfredo
Pigna book about the Estensi genealogy. But if your friend can be
interested, in my library I have a slime but very interesting book
that include a full analysis of the Pigna's Estensi genealogy: Gian
Luca Gregori, "Genealogie Estensi e falsificazione epigrafica", in
"Opuscula Epigrafica dell'Università degli Studi di Roma - La
Sapienza, Dipartimento di Scienze Storiche Archeologiche
Antropologiche dell'Antichità", 1 1990." At page 27, there also are a
genealogical table: "I capostipiti di Casa d'Este secondo la
genealogia del Pigna".

Pip Phillips is no friend of mine, he (or she) is just a teller of
tawdry
lies who popped up here recently.

3) I don't think so ... You write (and think, for sure) like and
arrogant, probably too young ..., insolent guy. All reasons far enough

to include you between the "collaborators" of sadimpex site.

Again sardimpex - to repeat, I have nothing to do with this, nothing to
say
about it, and I know nothing of it apart from the comments made here
over
the past few days. It doesn't interest me. Bombastic, futile claims,
poor
genealogical scholarship and attempts to fleece the unwary do concern
me,
and that is why my attention has been drawn to you.

Peter Stewart

John Brandon

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 mai 2007 14:59:11

Ahh, Peter Stewart warms to a new enemy ...

It's a feisty old fool, init?

Tony Hoskins

Re: St Alban's Abbey

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 08 mai 2007 19:54:52

Dear Michael:

What a photographic benefactor you are to us all! Do you take
commissions? (!)

Many thanks,

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: St Alban's Abbey

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 mai 2007 20:09:07

On 8 Mai, 19:54, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
Dear Michael:

What a photographic benefactor you are to us all! Do you take
commissions? (!)

Many thanks,

Tony

Dear Tony

It's my pleasure; the snaps I take would otherwise sit in my albums
enjoyed only by myself and family, so being able to circulate them
more widely to people who are interested is good. I spend several
months of each year in England, and as I am based in Buckinghamshire
where I have a house, I am pretty central for most places. As an
Australian I have no fear of traveling distances, so I head off
whenever I have the chance - which is fortunately fairly often. Carpe
diem! While I have the next month or two 'booked' in my head, I am
always open to suggestions of places to go, so feel free to ask.
There are so many hidden treasures here (like the Beauchamp chapel)
and so many externally unremarkable country churches with gems beneath
the pews, that I sometimes struggle to identify the best places to go
next...

Kind regards, Michael

WJhonson

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 mai 2007 21:36:15

I don't understand this observation. If QE2 is the *first* queen of britain with the name Elizabeth, then what was QE1's name?



In a message dated 05/08/07 13:26:02 Pacific Standard Time, dave@knowhere.com writes:
Queen Elizabeth II is the first Queen of Britain with the name
Elizabeth.

Chris Dickinson

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 08 mai 2007 22:37:53

WJhonson wrote:

I don't understand this observation. If QE2 is the *first* queen of
britain with the name Elizabeth, then what was QE1's name?


It's the same old problem with how to describe Charles V, V as Holy Roman
Emperor or I as King of Castile and Aragon (let alone those of you who would
want to use the native languages).

Because EII is II of the UK of GB & NI, does that entitle her predecessor to
be called EI of Britain, even though she didn't rule over Scotland (just had
her Queen executed)? Why not, you might answer, as the first one wasn't
called EI in her lifetime (took a Pope to be the first to call himself the
first), much like the Great War wasn't WWI at the time; so why not add
Britain as well?

There is a case for arguing that later English monarchs have the right to be
called 'of Britain', even before the Union. The notion of 'Bretwalde', of a
High Kingship over the British Isles, goes way back and was attached to the
English, not to the Scottish or Welsh or Irish.

What is really annoying is when Americans refer to the Old Pretender as
James III and idiots call Julius Caesar the first Roman Emperor. :-)

Chris

WJhonson

Re: "James Clyfton ... now living in Maryland"

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 mai 2007 22:48:21

Thanks Mar, using this I was able to find the ascent posted at stirnet.
I also noticed that I have a shorter ascent now which follows this line
Thomas Berkeley of Coston son of
Thomas, 1st Lord Berkeley by his wife Joan Ferrers; son of
Sir Maurice Berkeley by his wife Isabel Fitzroy de Dover (d 1276) daughter of
Richard FitzRoy, Baron Chilham by his wife Royce de Dover (d 1264/5),
son of King John of England



In a message dated 05/08/07 14:05:50 Pacific Standard Time, mjcar@btinternet.com writes:
On 8 Mai, 00:46, WJhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
I don't know of a royal ascent for Bridget Hussey.

Her great grandfather Sir Robert Hussey was a younger son of Sir
William Hussey by Elizabeth nee Berkeley, of the Wymondham branch of
that latter family; their progenitor, Thomas Berkeley, was in turn a
younger son of Thomas, 1st Lord Berkeley by Joan de Ferrers, daughter
of William, Earl of Derby (d 1254), whose mother was a daughter of
Hugh de Kevelioc, Earl of Chester, and thus a great-great-
granddaughter of Henry I. Doubtless there are other royal ascents.

MA-R


-------------------------------
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WJhonson

Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham, Discov

Legg inn av WJhonson » 08 mai 2007 23:02:10

You've repeated this "Anthony" a few times, but in your discussion you keep saying Anne married THOMAS Trollope.

Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/08/07 13:10:58 Pacific Standard Time, royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
I5) Roger Lumley of Ludworth m. Isabel Ratcliffe, and had
I6) Anne Lumley m. Anthony Trollope of Thornley, co. Durham, and had
I7) John Trollope of Thornley m. Maud Metham, and had

Gjest

Re: Queen Elizabeth II (21 April 1926- )

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 mai 2007 23:04:03

Dear Will,
A Stab in the dark here, probably Elizabeth, Queen by the
Grace of God of England, Wales and her Dominions across the seas, Lady of Ireland,
Defender of the Faith.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 08 mai 2007 23:34:54

"MLS" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1899.1178632138.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Please, listen to me carefully, Peter Stewart (or whatever could
possibly be your real name and your real age...)

I think that I spent enough time trying to explain to you and answer in
a most civil and polite manner!

But of course you are not answering, but rather avoiding the questions.

On the contrary you attacked me from the first moment in the MOST
Impolite, aggressive, arrogant manner.

I'm not interested to sped much of my time whit a person that
demonstrate enough not to know the most basilar rules of civil
discussion.

If you want continue this discussion in an acceptable "style" I can
agree. In other case, not.

1) I'm glad to read that you are nothing to do whit sardimpex. I'm glad
for you, I mean...
I simply assumed you can be part of the "sardimpex Clan" because of your
"style" , as I already told you, and because you post in this Topic.

You simply "assumed" because you wer trying to attack me in a most
irrational manner, having nothing better to say for yourself.

2) The decree of the Former Kingdom of Italy to whom I referred, it was
not a "grant of new title". On the contrary it vas a decree that clearly
"recognize" the right of my mother's ancestors claming on the duke of
San Donato title coming from the Sanseverino family. It is quite much
different. In other words, is not a "concession" decree but a
"recognition" decree.

The point is that recognition from the former kingdom of Italy mean NOTHING
with regard to grants of titles from the former kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
If you argue that it does, as a legitimate successor to the same authority,
then the current Italian republic must also be the legitimate successor to
both kingdoms and you should seek a presidential decree to validate _your_
bogus title as "duke of San Donato" that was not used by the ancestors
through whom you claim it.

As I repeat once again, we never disputed the rights of the peoples
descending from the one Ametrano's that BOUGHT the title. We simply
state our rights to the same title for a direct lineage, recognized by
the 5th October 1888 decree. That last cannot be disputed.

3) I noticed that, when you have no more arguments to attack me, you go
and find a new one (!) ... like this last about the grotteriaonline.com
site.

Um what does that mean? If I have no arguments, how can new ones be
available to find?

Strange.... But, in any case, go ahead. First of all I'm only indicate
the site only to see our family palace pictures. Not for the full
contents.
The page you are referring to is not a work of mine and can include some
errors, like the count of the title holder you found.

Who do you think you are kidding? We are expected to believe that someone
independently of you compiled a puff piece about your specific ancestry -
failing to mention your elder brother, dead or alive?

About our alleged lineage from Frederic of Lansleburg, for your
happiness, I could agree whit you. It is part of the "tradition" in the
story of the family that the author of the site liked to report.
If you are seriously interested to see an official story of our family,
you must check the official family site I already told you
(http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/lupis.html). For an official
genealogy of the many branches of our family you must check here
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-le ... dice%20Lup
is.html . As clearly stated there, those are the only official
genealogies of the family, based on the original documents kept in the
archive of the marquises, late princes Lupi of Soragna, in the "Rocca of
Soragna", near Parma.

Family archives contain an "offical" genealogy, that you consider superior,
and yet you leave absurd legends uncorrected on websites to which you
distrubte links....that is at least complicity in fraud, even if we are to
believe your disclaimer of immediate responsibility for the nonsense about
agnatic descent from St Arnulf to the Staufer. How exactly did this
erroneous legend gain currency if it was not propounded for & believed by
the same ancestors who gathered the "official" family archive?

About the older part of those genealogies I can prevent your
"objections": the genealogy of the "Virii Lupi" Roman family is all
based on the Settipani's works. Same for the genealogy of the
descendants of Saint Lupus, bishop of Troyes in the V century. The
genealogy connecting us to an alleged brother of this last Saint Lupus
it is based on a work of a XVII century genealogist, and only in a small
part can be verified.

More rubbish. The alleged descents claimed for your family on the Grotteria
website that you proffered here is just a crummy fantasy. It says: "I Lupis
sono un'antichissima famiglia, che per via maschile discende dal famoso
console romano Publio Rutilio Lupo che morì combattendo valorosamente nel 90
a.c., l'anno stesso del suo consolato, mentre per via femminile si ricollega
alla consorteria dei marchesi Obertenghi, di discendenza Regia e di origine
longobarda, che vantano a capostipiti i Re longobardi Rachis e Astolfo (sec
VIII)." This is trash.

Our documented genealogies star from the first marquis de Lupis of
Soragna, granted in a VIII century "pergamena" still kept in the same
archive.

Oh? Then why the long gaps?

Once again, if you are interested to pursue this discussion in a civil
manner, I can agree. On the contrary, I' will no longer interested to
discuss whit someone that insult me.

So far you have offered nothing of substance, you ahve merely invited more
insults by dissembling and prevaricating about your claims. Refer us to the
documentaiton, by all means. This is what Carlo Carucci, the esteemed editor
of _Archivio storico della provincia di Salerno_, would have done, from
self-respect as a scholar and gentleman much less from wishing to avoid
dispute with others.

Peter Stewart

MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 09 mai 2007 00:02:06

This is your very best ....crap!:

"...recognition from the former kingdom of Italy mean NOTHING
with regard to grants of titles from the former kingdom of the Two
Sicilies"

Veeery Good!


Here some recent citations on this list about you:

"when cornered you resort to insults; a tactic I have seen before. my, I
did not realize that I was engaging such giddy imbeciles as Peter
Stewart and Will Johnson. I don't think I have ever encountered such
buffoonery before. nothing constructive can come of this, so I will
leave you two clowns to your own self-delusions that you actually
matter.".


"hh, Peter Stewart warms to a new enemy ...

It's a feisty old fool, init?"


Regards
M




-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:35 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website



"MLS" <mlupis@genmarenostrum.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1899.1178632138.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Please, listen to me carefully, Peter Stewart (or whatever could
possibly be your real name and your real age...)

I think that I spent enough time trying to explain to you and answer
in a most civil and polite manner!

But of course you are not answering, but rather avoiding the questions.

On the contrary you attacked me from the first moment in the MOST
Impolite, aggressive, arrogant manner.

I'm not interested to sped much of my time whit a person that
demonstrate enough not to know the most basilar rules of civil
discussion.

If you want continue this discussion in an acceptable "style" I can
agree. In other case, not.

1) I'm glad to read that you are nothing to do whit sardimpex. I'm
glad for you, I mean... I simply assumed you can be part of the
"sardimpex Clan" because of your "style" , as I already told you, and
because you post in this Topic.

You simply "assumed" because you wer trying to attack me in a most
irrational manner, having nothing better to say for yourself.

2) The decree of the Former Kingdom of Italy to whom I referred, it
was not a "grant of new title". On the contrary it vas a decree that
clearly "recognize" the right of my mother's ancestors claming on the
duke of San Donato title coming from the Sanseverino family. It is
quite much different. In other words, is not a "concession" decree
but a "recognition" decree.

The point is that recognition from the former kingdom of Italy mean
NOTHING
with regard to grants of titles from the former kingdom of the Two
Sicilies.
If you argue that it does, as a legitimate successor to the same
authority,
then the current Italian republic must also be the legitimate successor
to
both kingdoms and you should seek a presidential decree to validate
_your_
bogus title as "duke of San Donato" that was not used by the ancestors
through whom you claim it.

As I repeat once again, we never disputed the rights of the peoples
descending from the one Ametrano's that BOUGHT the title. We simply
state our rights to the same title for a direct lineage, recognized by

the 5th October 1888 decree. That last cannot be disputed.

3) I noticed that, when you have no more arguments to attack me, you
go and find a new one (!) ... like this last about the
grotteriaonline.com site.

Um what does that mean? If I have no arguments, how can new ones be
available to find?

Strange.... But, in any case, go ahead. First of all I'm only indicate

the site only to see our family palace pictures. Not for the full
contents. The page you are referring to is not a work of mine and can
include some errors, like the count of the title holder you found.

Who do you think you are kidding? We are expected to believe that
someone
independently of you compiled a puff piece about your specific ancestry
-
failing to mention your elder brother, dead or alive?

About our alleged lineage from Frederic of Lansleburg, for your
happiness, I could agree whit you. It is part of the "tradition" in
the story of the family that the author of the site liked to report.
If you are seriously interested to see an official story of our
family, you must check the official family site I already told you
(http://www.genmarenostrum.com/mlupis/lupis.html). For an official
genealogy of the many branches of our family you must check here
http://www.genmarenostrum.com/pagine-le ... Indice%20L
up
is.html . As clearly stated there, those are the only official
genealogies of the family, based on the original documents kept in the
archive of the marquises, late princes Lupi of Soragna, in the "Rocca
of
Soragna", near Parma.

Family archives contain an "offical" genealogy, that you consider
superior,
and yet you leave absurd legends uncorrected on websites to which you
distrubte links....that is at least complicity in fraud, even if we are
to
believe your disclaimer of immediate responsibility for the nonsense
about
agnatic descent from St Arnulf to the Staufer. How exactly did this
erroneous legend gain currency if it was not propounded for & believed
by
the same ancestors who gathered the "official" family archive?

About the older part of those genealogies I can prevent your
"objections": the genealogy of the "Virii Lupi" Roman family is all
based on the Settipani's works. Same for the genealogy of the
descendants of Saint Lupus, bishop of Troyes in the V century. The
genealogy connecting us to an alleged brother of this last Saint Lupus

it is based on a work of a XVII century genealogist, and only in a
small part can be verified.

More rubbish. The alleged descents claimed for your family on the
Grotteria
website that you proffered here is just a crummy fantasy. It says: "I
Lupis
sono un'antichissima famiglia, che per via maschile discende dal famoso
console romano Publio Rutilio Lupo che morì combattendo valorosamente
nel 90
a.c., l'anno stesso del suo consolato, mentre per via femminile si
ricollega
alla consorteria dei marchesi Obertenghi, di discendenza Regia e di
origine
longobarda, che vantano a capostipiti i Re longobardi Rachis e Astolfo
(sec
VIII)." This is trash.

Our documented genealogies star from the first marquis de Lupis of
Soragna, granted in a VIII century "pergamena" still kept in the same
archive.

Oh? Then why the long gaps?

Once again, if you are interested to pursue this discussion in a civil

manner, I can agree. On the contrary, I' will no longer interested to
discuss whit someone that insult me.

So far you have offered nothing of substance, you ahve merely invited
more
insults by dissembling and prevaricating about your claims. Refer us to
the
documentaiton, by all means. This is what Carlo Carucci, the esteemed
editor
of _Archivio storico della provincia di Salerno_, would have done, from
self-respect as a scholar and gentleman much less from wishing to avoid
dispute with others.

Peter Stewart

WJhonson

Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham, Discov

Legg inn av WJhonson » 09 mai 2007 00:25:43

Brad I can connect Anthony Trollope the writer back to his forebears
Thomas Trollope, Bart of Casewick, created in 1641, died in 1651 and his second wife Mary Clitheroe dau of Sir Christopher Clitheroe of London.

Now can you complete the connection?
Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/08/07 15:14:20 Pacific Standard Time, royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
I wonder if he was
a descendant of Thomas?

John Higgins

Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham, Discov

Legg inn av John Higgins » 09 mai 2007 00:36:22

See the Trollope pedigree on the Stirnet website for some CONJECTURE (note
emphasis) on the earlier ancestry of the branch of the Trollope family which
produced the famous author - including a highly speculative connection to
the Trollope family that Brad has mentioned.

----- Original Message -----
From: "WJhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham,Discoverer of
Whittle Springs 1845


Brad I can connect Anthony Trollope the writer back to his forebears
Thomas Trollope, Bart of Casewick, created in 1641, died in 1651 and his
second wife Mary Clitheroe dau of Sir Christopher Clitheroe of London.

Now can you complete the connection?
Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/08/07 15:14:20 Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
I wonder if he was
a descendant of Thomas?

-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Francisco Tavares de Alme

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Francisco Tavares de Alme » 09 mai 2007 00:44:00

MLS escreveu:

"hh, Peter Stewart warms to a new enemy ...

It's a feisty old fool, init?"


Regards
M



You have wake up John Brandon from his drinking stupor, so far your

best achievement!
But you seem to be running short of both arguments and
generations, ... to fill the gaps I mean.

Best regards,
Francisco

MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 09 mai 2007 00:57:28

It's seem's to me that I already done a full reply. If it's not enough
for you .. It's your problem, once again.


Regards
M

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Tavares de Almeida
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:44 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


MLS escreveu:

"hh, Peter Stewart warms to a new enemy ...

It's a feisty old fool, init?"


Regards
M



You have wake up John Brandon from his drinking stupor, so far your best

achievement! But you seem to be running short of both arguments and
generations, ... to fill the gaps I mean.

Best regards,
Francisco


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 mai 2007 01:06:59

On May 9, 9:02 am, "MLS" <mlu...@genmarenostrum.com> wrote:
This is your very best ....crap!:

"...recognition from the former kingdom of Italy mean NOTHING
with regard to grants of titles from the former kingdom of the Two
Sicilies"

Veeery Good!

Here some recent citations on this list about you:

"when cornered you resort to insults; a tactic I have seen before. my, I
did not realize that I was engaging such giddy imbeciles as Peter
Stewart and Will Johnson. I don't think I have ever encountered such
buffoonery before. nothing constructive can come of this, so I will
leave you two clowns to your own self-delusions that you actually
matter.".

"hh, Peter Stewart warms to a new enemy ...

It's a feisty old fool, init?"

Regards
M

And this is supposed to answer the questions raised? Quoting John
Brandon is supposed to dig your own credibility out of a hole?

Next you might try to explain to us how it came about that your
bookplate is displayed on the second page of the document that you
disclaimed to the newsgroup, writing "The page you are referring to is
not a work of mine and can include some errors, like the count of the
title holder you found".

Did some pesky admirer of yours sneak into the library of your ducal
palace and take a few snapshots for armorial souvenirs of incursion
into your privacy? Then you should think about a better security
system, in case the genealogical paparazzi try again to incriminate
you in lies.

Peter Stewart

Andrra

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Andrra » 09 mai 2007 01:23:56

I'm afraid you should immediately go to the see a veterinary ... for a
full check-up.
Believe me.
M

Ps: Just curious: Peter Stewart is a real name or a "nom de plume"? It
sound like "Mario Rossi" in Italy or "John Smith" in USA...
Bah!


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 2:07 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


On May 9, 9:02 am, "MLS" <mlu...@genmarenostrum.com> wrote:
This is your very best ....crap!:

"...recognition from the former kingdom of Italy mean NOTHING with
regard to grants of titles from the former kingdom of the Two
Sicilies"

Veeery Good!

Here some recent citations on this list about you:

"when cornered you resort to insults; a tactic I have seen before. my,

I did not realize that I was engaging such giddy imbeciles as Peter
Stewart and Will Johnson. I don't think I have ever encountered such
buffoonery before. nothing constructive can come of this, so I will
leave you two clowns to your own self-delusions that you actually
matter.".

"hh, Peter Stewart warms to a new enemy ...

It's a feisty old fool, init?"

Regards
M

And this is supposed to answer the questions raised? Quoting John
Brandon is supposed to dig your own credibility out of a hole?

Next you might try to explain to us how it came about that your
bookplate is displayed on the second page of the document that you
disclaimed to the newsgroup, writing "The page you are referring to is
not a work of mine and can include some errors, like the count of the
title holder you found".

Did some pesky admirer of yours sneak into the library of your ducal
palace and take a few snapshots for armorial souvenirs of incursion into
your privacy? Then you should think about a better security system, in
case the genealogical paparazzi try again to incriminate you in lies.

Peter Stewart


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



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Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 mai 2007 01:26:07

On May 8, 11:59 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Ahh, Peter Stewart warms to a new enemy ...

It's a feisty old fool, init?

And Brandon would prefer that phoneys can come to SGM and advertise
their wares, disseminate false pedigrees and claim bogus titles
unchallenged?

The only "enemies" in this forum are pretense, incompetence and
vexatious nonsense. No surprise that Brandon covers this field - now
trying to make out that Michael Andrews-Reading, who is at present
living in the UK, somehow writes my posts that are sent from
Australia.

Peter Stewart

MLS

RE: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av MLS » 09 mai 2007 01:27:49

"pesky admirer"?
"genealogical paparazzi"?

Not bad....
Try again. You can do much better

Regards


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 2:07 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Question about the http://www.sardimpex.com website


On May 9, 9:02 am, "MLS" <mlu...@genmarenostrum.com> wrote:
This is your very best ....crap!:

"...recognition from the former kingdom of Italy mean NOTHING with
regard to grants of titles from the former kingdom of the Two
Sicilies"

Veeery Good!

Here some recent citations on this list about you:

"when cornered you resort to insults; a tactic I have seen before. my,

I did not realize that I was engaging such giddy imbeciles as Peter
Stewart and Will Johnson. I don't think I have ever encountered such
buffoonery before. nothing constructive can come of this, so I will
leave you two clowns to your own self-delusions that you actually
matter.".

"hh, Peter Stewart warms to a new enemy ...

It's a feisty old fool, init?"

Regards
M

And this is supposed to answer the questions raised? Quoting John
Brandon is supposed to dig your own credibility out of a hole?

Next you might try to explain to us how it came about that your
bookplate is displayed on the second page of the document that you
disclaimed to the newsgroup, writing "The page you are referring to is
not a work of mine and can include some errors, like the count of the
title holder you found".

Did some pesky admirer of yours sneak into the library of your ducal
palace and take a few snapshots for armorial souvenirs of incursion into
your privacy? Then you should think about a better security system, in
case the genealogical paparazzi try again to incriminate you in lies.

Peter Stewart


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

WJhonson

Re: Descents From Edward III For Dr. William Brigham, Discov

Legg inn av WJhonson » 09 mai 2007 01:43:04

A bit more on the ancestry of Anthony Trollope. For some reason I've found the baptisms of his family at Uffington, Lincoln from 1692 forward and again from about 1650 backward with some missing, but where were they *between* those years?


In a message dated 05/08/07 16:25:43 Pacific Standard Time, wjhonson writes:
Brad I can connect Anthony Trollope the writer back to his forebears
Thomas Trollope, Bart of Casewick, created in 1641, died in 1651 and his second wife Mary Clitheroe dau of Sir Christopher Clitheroe of London.

Now can you complete the connection?
Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/08/07 15:14:20 Pacific Standard Time, royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
I wonder if he was
a descendant of Thomas?

taf

Re: Mabel 'filia Willielmi Patrio', wife of Nigel de Mowbray

Legg inn av taf » 09 mai 2007 02:25:19

On May 1, 6:15 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:

In a prior thread, there was discussion concerning the identity
of Mabel, wife of Nigel de Mowbray (d. 1191) and her parentage [1].
Of particular interest, Doug Richardson provided an extract from
Archaeologia Cantiana, which states in part,

"Domesday Book records that Richard, son of William, held
Patrixbourne from Odo, Bishop of Bayeux and half-brother of
William the Conqueror. After that, as Sanders records, the
manor was held by the Patrick family who came from La Lande-
Patry, near Flers in the Calvados region of Normandy. William
Patrick's name appears on deeds in Normandy in the period
1066-83, and Richard was almost certainly his son." [2]

This would appear to provide at least a weak link with the
tenure of Banstead, Surrey, which Mabel (wife of Nigel de
Mowbray) had as her maritagium. The VCH history for Surrey which
covers Banstead states that ' In 1086 Banstead, in Wallington
Hundred, was held by Richard of Odo, Bishop of Bayeux ' [3]. The
account in VCH goes on to state concerning Mabel, "She seems to
have been the daughter of Roger, Earl of Clare", but there seems no
justification for this statement except the theory given therein
(see below) that the 1086 tenant was Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare.

It seems more than probable that the Richard who held
Banstead in 1086 of Bishop Odo of Bayeux was the same Richard,
son of William who held Patrixbourne at the same time. It seems
unlikely that the illustrious Richard fitz Gilbert would have
been identified only as "Richard" in the record concerning
Banstead.


It now appears more likely that Mabel was in fact the
daughter of William Patrick, who would then have been the
namesake of Mabel's son William de Mowbray. Additional
relevant documentation, comment or criticism on the subject
is of course welcome.

I am not sure I follow your argument. Are you saying that because _a_
Richard held Banstead of Odo, and elsewhere Richard (Patrick) son of
William held of Odo, then the Richard of Banstead is probably Richard
Patrick? I would think that Richard is not a rare enough name to make
this argument, but perhaps I have mistaken you.

taf

WJhonson

Re: C.P. Addition: Elizabeth Norbury, wife of Sir Ralph Bote

Legg inn av WJhonson » 09 mai 2007 02:42:52

Yes I've answered my own question by ref to CPR where John Norbury who was esquire to the Duke of Lancaster in 1399, was made Treasurer of the Exchequer that same year. He later married Elizabeth Boteler, but note that his prior wife was Petronilla by whom must be at least, his daughter Joan who m Nicholas Usk, Treasurer of the household of John Duke of Lancaster in 1399.

Will Johnson



In a message dated 05/08/07 18:22:00 Pacific Standard Time, WJhonson writes:
Is this the same John Norbury "sometime Treasurer" who was also "esquire of Henry Duke of Lancaster in 1399" and who died in 1414, husband of Elizabeth Boteler d 1464 ?

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Peter Stewart

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 09 mai 2007 03:00:13

On May 9, 10:23 am, "Andrra" <and...@email.it> wrote:
I'm afraid you should immediately go to the see a veterinary ... for a
full check-up.
Believe me.
M

Ps: Just curious: Peter Stewart is a real name or a "nom de plume"? It
sound like "Mario Rossi" in Italy or "John Smith" in USA...
Bah!

People with a bent for titles should have no problem with the name:
"Peter" is prince of the Apostles while "Stewart" was a surname of
kings. Not at all like "Mario Rossi" or "John Smith" - and of course
evasive damp squibs don't answer criticism anyway.

Peter Stewart

pierre_aronax@hotmail.com

Re: Question about the www.sardimpex.com website

Legg inn av pierre_aronax@hotmail.com » 09 mai 2007 10:44:45

I will not go into the discussion about your titles of nobility, about
which I have no opinion. However, reading this discussion I have had
the curiosity to look at your website and its forum and, speaking of
good manners, I would like to see my name mentioned when you quote me:
a bibliographical reference I gave here is reproduced with my comments
verbatim and attributed to an anonymous "amico del Forum gen-
Medieval" (I was not aware we were friends, and, as far as I can
remember, that message you quoted was not answering one of yours).

http://genmarenostrum.forumup.it/about2 ... strum.html

For what is of the topic you addressed there, many things could be
said, but for the beginning I think you should not give any credit to
documents like the purported "diploma di Ferdinando d'Aragona Re di
Napoli del 6 ottobre 1463 nel quale il Sovrano concede a Rogerio
Paleologo citato come devoto e illustre figlio di Tommaso Despota di
Morea le rendite di alcuni terreni" : Thômas Palaiologos had no son
called Roger and no Byzantine prince is likely to have given such name
to one of his children. Would it not contain such impossibility, the
document would be suspect anyway, being published in a book of Charles
A. Gauci, of dubious scientific reputation. This is obviously fake
Byzantine genealogy again.

Pierre

WJhonson

Re: Reverse gateways: "Native American DNA found in the UK"

Legg inn av WJhonson » 09 mai 2007 18:44:14

Or that they were maids.



In a message dated 05/09/07 09:00:54 Pacific Standard Time, lostcooper@yahoo.com writes:
One of the findings was that Native
women actually lived in Jamestown households, suggesting marriage or ,
at least, cohabitation.

Svar

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