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Alex Maxwell Findlater

Re: Avilla (d) William Lancaster

Legg inn av Alex Maxwell Findlater » 06 apr 2007 07:01:29

Given that Burgh (not Burg) was came to Simon de Morville with his
wife Ada daughter of William de Engaine in shall we say ca 1150 and
that Hugo de Morville was married to Beatrice de Beauchamp in about
1130, it seems highly unlikely that he came from Burgh-by-Sands. The
most likely explanation is that they were brothers and more likely
than not sons of Robert de Morville of Bradpoole in Dorset. Robert
in ca 1100 and his probable elder son William in 1129 witnessed de
Redvers charters.

The de Redvers were the earls of Devon, though not called that
contemporaneously, but more significant they came from Vernon and the
same area of Nehou (Cotentin), and used these three surnames
interchangeably. Richard de Reviers founded the monastery of
Montbourg (near Nehou), which was gifted lands by the de Morvilles.
The Redvers were known in deeds of slightly later as earls of the
isle, ie the Isle of Wight which Richard de Reviers inherited after
the death of William FitzOsborn.

It seems likely that a Morville came in the menie of Richard de
Reviers (d 8 Sept 1107), settled at Bradpoole in Dorset and that the
South West was too small to hold his extensive progeny.

Brad Verity

Re: Descents From Edward III For Sir Marmaduke Beckwith, 3rd

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 06 apr 2007 08:04:46

Dear Will,

Thanks for the IGI link, and instructions on how to use - I've never tried
it before. I'm exhausted tonight, but hopefully I'll have the opportunity
to hunt through it over the next couple days.

Surtees's pedigrees are usually very thorough - I have copies of several
from previous library visits. I think before we exhaust ourselves trying to
reconstruct this Brakenbury of Sellaby pedigree, we wait until we see what
Surtees was able to put together. I'm going to plan on making two copies of
it, and send you one of them - I know you've been interested in this family
for awhile.

Cheers, ----Brad


From: "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Descents From Edward III For Sir Marmaduke Beckwith, 3rd
Baronet
Date: 5 Apr 2007 23:19:09 -0700

Brad the parish register of Gainford, Durham is at

http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch P002031

Do you know who to search using the Batch numbers ?
You select the IGI first, then you select the region as British Isles
Then enter the batch number in that field
And enter NOTHING else except the surname Brackenbury
Then hit submit and it will give you everything on that surname in
that source.

This particular batch is I think just baptisms. You can also, if you
happen to know other surnames who could have been baptised at
Gainford, search on those ones as well. I find it acutely easier once
I know the Batch number to just edit *everyone* with that surname
instead of searching on each one seperately.

I do not know anything more about the Will of Richad Brackenbury there
was only a passing reference that it existed, in one source, and the
date and nothing more about it.

Since we know that there is a father Thomas Brackenbury having
children at least Margaret 1602 and Matthew 1610, I've moved the two
strays Elizabeth 1597 and Eleanor 1599 under his entry for now.

Now the only problem is figuring out who the heck this Thomas ... is,
since he's not a son of Henry's. But then there is also this half-
brother Anthony to account for as well.

I did not see any marriages or burials when I was looking.

Will Johnson

_________________________________________________________________
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Gjest

Re: Henry Guldeford, KG

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 apr 2007 15:01:03

Will,

From my notes, I have


Reference: U120/T1/24/1; Letter patent of Henry VIII; Creation dates: 28
November 1528
Scope and Content
Licence to alienate, Arthur Sayntleger [ac: St Leger], prior of Leeds, to
Thomas West, kt., Lord of Lawarre [ac: Henry Guldford’s (HG) br’s wife’s br],
Edward Guldeford, kt. [ac: br of HG], John Cawge [ac: ie John Gage, HG’s sis
husband], kt., Francis Bryan, kt.[ac: HG m2 a Mary Bryan] , Anthony Browne,
kt. [Matthew Brownes 1st cousin] , Matthew Browne, kt. [ac: HG’s sis’s
husband], Edward Wotton, kt. [ac: HG m1 Mary Wooten], Henry Isley, kt.[ac HG’ sis m
an Isley], George Guldeford, esq. [br of HG], John Cromer, esq., James
Pekham, esq., John Poyntz, Henry Browne, [ac ?br of Sir Anthony B.] Thomas Wotton,
Edward Cawge [ac: = Edward Gage], John Guldeford [perhaps the John son of HG’
s br George], Richard Hyll, Walter Hendley, Henry Poyntz, Henry Hyll as
feoffees to the use of Henry Guldeford
Manor of East Sutton and Townland, Woodchurch and 100a. land, 50a. meadow,
200a. pasture, 100a. wood in East Sutton, Ulcombe, Sutton Valence and
Woodchurch
Seal: fragment of Great Seal

Adrian

In a message dated 06/04/2007 03:50:45 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:
From the A2A site

Centre for Kentish Studies: Filmer Manuscripts
Filmer Manuscripts
Catalogue Ref. U120
Creator(s): Filmer family of East Sutton, Kent
TITLE DEEDS
Manor of East Sutton and entire estate
Manor of East Sutton
Manor of East Sutton and other manors, including Manor of Townland,
Woodchurch
FILE - Letter patent of Henry VIII - ref. U120/T1/24/1 - date: 28
November 1528
[from Scope and Content] Licence to alienate, Arthur Sayntleger, prior
of Leeds, to Thomas West, kt., Lord of Lawarre, Edward Guldeford, kt.,
John Cawge, kt., Francis Bryan, kt., Anthony Browne, kt., Matthew
Browne, kt., Edward Wotton, kt., Henry Isley, kt., George Guldeford,
esq., John Cromer, esq., James Pekham, esq., John Poyntz, Henry
Browne, Thomas Wotton, Edward Cawge, John Guldeford, Richard Hyll,
Walter Hendley, Henry Poyntz, Henry Hyll as feoffees to the use of
Henry Guldeford

From my analysis it appears this document pertains to the marriage of
Henry Guldeford and Mary Wotton.


1) Arthur St Leger, Prior of Leeds -- dont know who this is
2) Thomas West, Lord of Lawarre - the 9th Lord de la Warre d 1554,
brother-in-law to Edward Guldeford
3) Edward Guldeford kt - Son of Richard Guldeford by Anne Pimpe; he
married Eleanor West
4) John Cawge kt - John GAGE, KG of West Firle married Philippa
Guldeford sister of (3) Edward
5) Francis Bryan kt - d 1549/50, brother to Henry Guldeford's first
wife Margaret Bryan
6) Anthony Browne kt - d 1548, married Alice Gage, daughter of (4)
John Gage by Philippa Guldeford
7) Matthew Browne kt - first cousin of (6); married Fridiswide
Guldeford sister of (3)
8) Edward Wotton kt - brother of Mary Wotton, second wife of Henry
Guldeford
9) Henry Isley kt - dont know who this is
10) George Guldeford, esq - brother of (3), brother inlaw of (4) and
(7), half-brother of Henry Guldeford
11) John Cromer, esq. - JAMES Cromer of Tunstall married Anne Wotten
dau of (8), this must be a related there
12) James Pekham, esq. - I dont know who this is
13) John Poyntz - This must be John Poyntz of Adderley, brother to the
current husband of Joan de Vaux mother of Henry Guldeford
14) Henry Browne - son of (7) by Fridiswide Guldeford
15) Thomas Wotton - son of (8)
16) Edward Cawge - son of (4) by Philippa Guldeford
17) John Guldeford - son of (10) by Elizabeth Mortimer
18) Richard Hyll - who is this?
19) Walter Hendley - who is this?
20) Henry Poyntz - who is this?
21) Henry Hyll - who is this?
22) Henry Guldeford - the MAIN culprit. This must be a settlement on
him upon his second marriage??

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Henry Guldeford, KG

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 apr 2007 15:16:04

BTW, I suspect that this complicated deed is the result of having property
left in "gavelkind", its pity that this practise, commonly found in Kent, is
often end by Acts of P.


Adrian


Reference: U120/T1/24/1; Letter patent of Henry VIII; Creation dates: 28
November 1528
Scope and Content
Licence to alienate, Arthur Sayntleger ...

Gjest

RE: Re: Avise de Lancaster

Legg inn av Gjest » 06 apr 2007 18:43:55

Hello Andrew,
Thank you for your comments and referenc to your website. May I offer a consideration.
Ivo was the son of William and Maud de Morville de Veteripont. William was married first to Emma St. Hilarie by whom her had three sons named William. From these sons, most of the Scottish branch descend. He then married Maude by who he had Robert and Ivo. Ivo identified in charter: “for safety of my soul and for the souls of Hugh de Morvill and William de Veteriponte my father and Matilda de Veteriponte my mother and Robert my brother and Isabel de Lancestre my wife and all my ancestors.” These Viponts also held land and position in Devon; Nicholas "Nicholas de Veteri Ponte tenet un. F. in Trisselton de manerio de Hurberton quod est in manu Regis." This Nicholas is of the lie of Ivo who was born sometime prior to 1160, possibly 1135-40.
Pat
From: "Andrew and Inge" <andrew.en.inge@skynet.be
Date: 2007/04/06 Fri AM 01:35:50 EDT
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Re: Avise de Lancaster

By Ivo you mean Ivo de Veteripont? I don't think we have strong evidence of
who Isabel was, but she perhaps she is more likely to be a daughter of
William de Lancaster II, who was brother of the Avice who has been under
discussion. Keep in mind that this William also had a daughter Avice, and a
wife Avice (apparently a de Stutevill), and he must have had children from a
younger mother (probably not wife) also, including Gilbert de Lancaster of
Sockbridge (first of that name). Maybe Isabel was a sister to this Gilbert.

My Lancaster notes are here:
http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/De%20L ... rland.html

Regards
Andrew Lancaster

-----Original Message-----
From: pajunkin@bellsouth.net [mailto:pajunkin@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Thursday, 5 April 2007 8:12 PM
To: AnnG; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Re: Avise de Lancaster


I beleve Maud de Morville, sister of Richard de Morville who married Avice
de Lancaster, to have been born 1135-40. Maud's son Ivo is said to have
married 1) Sybil (possibly Thoresby) and 2) Isabel de Lancaster. Could
Isabel have been the younger sister of Avice or would this have posed a
problem?


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Andrew and Inge

RE: Re: Avise de Lancaster

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 06 apr 2007 19:07:22

Thank you very much!

I can only add a remark of questionable value. FW Ragg in his 1910 article
called "De Lancaster" has a family tree page with an unexplained isolated
marriage showing for Isabel and Ivo. The only fact given apart from that
marriage is that Isabel was dead before 1227. Ragg apparently forgot to
explain this in the text! I presume a charter from around 1227 shows Ivo as
married to someone else for example?

Now in the article, Ragg explains how he was finally convinced that William
de Lancaster II really did have a son named Gilbert, and how he must have
died about 1220. So we get the impression in any case that William de
Lancaster II was having children long before he married Avice de Stutevill
who must have been born around 1165?? (She apparently gave birth to a third
husband in the 1200s.) There was also perhaps a son named Jordan. However
William's heir was his much younger daughter also called Avice, who married
Gilbert fitz Reinfrid, so I see no reason to doubt that she was named after
her mother.

I think it has been remarked already on this list that a similar thing may
have happened with William de Lancaster I: his children seem much too young
to be the children of his known wife, Gundred, at least if we understand her
to be Gundred de Warenne on a second marriage.

Regards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: pajunkin@bellsouth.net [mailto:pajunkin@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Friday, 6 April 2007 7:44 PM
To: Andrew and Inge; gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Re: Avise de Lancaster


Hello Andrew,
Thank you for your comments and referenc to your website. May I offer a
consideration.
Ivo was the son of William and Maud de Morville de Veteripont. William was
married first to Emma St. Hilarie by whom her had three sons named William.
From these sons, most of the Scottish branch descend. He then married Maude
by who he had Robert and Ivo. Ivo identified in charter: “for safety of my

soul and for the souls of Hugh de Morvill and William de Veteriponte my
father and Matilda de Veteriponte my mother and Robert my brother and Isabel
de Lancestre my wife and all my ancestors.” These Viponts also held land
and position in Devon; Nicholas "Nicholas de Veteri Ponte tenet un. F. in
Trisselton de manerio de Hurberton quod est in manu Regis." This Nicholas is
of the lie of Ivo who was born sometime prior to 1160, possibly 1135-40.


>

CE Wood

Re: Avise de Lancaster

Legg inn av CE Wood » 06 apr 2007 19:50:40

Check out the archives on "Veteripontes/Viponts". There, William's
second wife (after Emma) was Maud St. Andrew. Making the William who
married Maud de Morville a son of William & Emma fits better with Maud
de Morville's dates and those of his descendants.

CE Wood


On Apr 6, 10:43 am, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Hello Andrew,
Thank you for your comments and referenc to your website. May I offer a consideration.
Ivo was the son of William and Maud de Morville de Veteripont. William was married first to Emma St. Hilarie by whom her had three sons named William. From these sons, most of the Scottish branch descend. He then married Maude by who he had Robert and Ivo. Ivo identified in charter: "for safety of my soul and for the souls of Hugh de Morvill and William de Veteriponte my father and Matilda de Veteriponte my mother and Robert my brother and Isabel de Lancestre my wife and all my ancestors." These Viponts also held land and position in Devon; Nicholas "Nicholas de Veteri Ponte tenet un. F. in Trisselton de manerio de Hurberton quod est in manu Regis." This Nicholas is of the lie of Ivo who was born sometime prior to 1160, possibly 1135-40.
Pat



From: "Andrew and Inge" <andrew.en.i...@skynet.be
Date: 2007/04/06 Fri AM 01:35:50 EDT
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Re: Avise de Lancaster

By Ivo you mean Ivo de Veteripont? I don't think we have strong evidence of
who Isabel was, but she perhaps she is more likely to be a daughter of
William de Lancaster II, who was brother of the Avice who has been under
discussion. Keep in mind that this William also had a daughter Avice, and a
wife Avice (apparently a de Stutevill), and he must have had children from a
younger mother (probably not wife) also, including Gilbert de Lancaster of
Sockbridge (first of that name). Maybe Isabel was a sister to this Gilbert.

My Lancaster notes are here:
http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/De%20L ... rland.html

Regards
Andrew Lancaster

-----Original Message-----
From: pajun...@bellsouth.net [mailto:pajun...@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Thursday, 5 April 2007 8:12 PM
To: AnnG; gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Re: Avise de Lancaster

I beleve Maud de Morville, sister of Richard de Morville who married Avice
de Lancaster, to have been born 1135-40. Maud's son Ivo is said to have
married 1) Sybil (possibly Thoresby) and 2) Isabel de Lancaster. Could
Isabel have been the younger sister of Avice or would this have posed a
problem?

-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Ralph de Aalst/Ralph de Gand

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 apr 2007 00:16:03

Dear Peter,
Yes. Turton does apparently list that by the abbreviated
title as follows 1822-23 Courcelles, J Hist. de Pairs de France.
Many Thanks,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



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wjhonson

Re: Henry Guldeford, KG

Legg inn av wjhonson » 07 apr 2007 05:06:18

What is the source for Henry Guldeford having a sister who married an
Isley? I don't have that connection yet.
Thanks
Will Johnson

John Higgins

Re: Henry Guldeford, KG

Legg inn av John Higgins » 07 apr 2007 06:03:33

The source I cited earlier in this thread, "The Ancestry of Mary Isaac",
mentions that Elizabeth Guildford, half-sister [not sister] of Sir Henry
Guildford, mar. (1) Thomas Isley of Sundridge (d. 1518). They had 10 sons
and two daughters, among whom was Sir Henry Isley, executed 1553 for taking
part in Wyatt's rebellion. Perhaps this was the Henry Isley mentioned in
the 1528 document mentioned by Adrian Channing.

----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: Henry Guldeford, KG


What is the source for Henry Guldeford having a sister who married an
Isley? I don't have that connection yet.
Thanks
Will Johnson


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Gjest

Re: Henry Guldeford, KG

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 apr 2007 15:11:04

In The Brownes of Bechworth Castle, by John Pym Yeatman 1903, (around page
50) he quotes from a pedigree made by Robert Honeywood, of Marks Hall, Essex
in around 1615 includs the following


`Thomas Browne, Kt., was son of Robert, and had 3 sons. Sir Mathew Browne,
Kt. (the first), had issue, by Frisewide, one of the daughters of Richard
Guilford, Kt., whose daughters were thus married‑Winifred to Sir Mathew Browne,
as before (from which it appears that Winifred and Friswide are convertible
names); one other married to Sir Henry Gage, Kt., and hath issue; one other,
named Elizabeth, married [ac: 1st] to Isley, of Kent, and hath issue, Sir Henry
Isley, and he hath issue living, and, after, she was married to Stafford,
and had issue living, and after married to Sir Richard Shirley, Kt., and he
died without issue by her, and then the son and heir of Sir Richard Shirley took
to wife May Isley, sister of the said Sir Henry Isley, and daughter of the
said Elizabeth Guildford, and by her had issue Sir Thomas Shirley, Kt., and
Anthony Shirley, Esq., and one daughter. One other of the said Sir Richard
Guildford's (daughters) first married Hawte and after Finch.' ...


Adrian


In a message dated 07/04/2007 05:10:53 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:

What is the source for Henry Guldeford having a sister who married an
Isley? I don't have that connection yet.
Thanks
Will Johnson


-------------------------------
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the body of the message

Brad Verity

Re: Descents From Edward III For Sir Marmaduke Beckwith, 3rd

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 08 apr 2007 03:52:59

[Just a note that it doesn't appear your message below, John, has posted to
soc.genealogy.medieval at Google Groups.]

From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net

Hopkinson may be John Hopkinson, for whom the FHL catalog has an entry for
a
work titled "A collection of the pedigrees and descents of several of the
gentry of the West Riding of the county of York and elsewhere", available
on
microfilm via the FHL. Admittedly the West Riding is not the North Riding
but the "and elsewhere" could cover it. The catalog entry describes it as
a
"copy of the compilation of John Hopkinson of Lofthouse, MS 11948".

That certainly sounds like the correct work. I'll have a look at it on my
next visit to the FHL, which sadly won't be until late summer or early fall.

Whitaker's Richmondshire is also at the FHL, but only in book form, not on
film. But the LA Central Library apparently has a copy of the books (and
also has a copy of Surtees' Durham, FWIW).

Great! I'll be able to finish Foster's 1585/1612 Yorkshire Visitations
volume, plus do Surtees' Durham & Whitaker's Richmondshire in one Library
trip.

Thanks for passing all of this along, John.

Cheers, -------Brad

_________________________________________________________________
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Gjest

Re: Who was Margaret Boynton (nee Conyers) ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 apr 2007 20:31:02

Dear Brad,
Sir Thomas Boynton`s will mentions his wife`s brother John
Conyers. Never mind that Henry Boynton married Elizabeth Conyers of Sockburn
and Christopher Boynton married Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Conyers of Ormesby
by Elizabeth NN. We know that Margaret`s younger son Christopher Boynton was
born abt 1370-80 as He became his nephew Thomas` guardian in 1405. So
Margaret was born say 1350 or before. The Conyers / Markenfield suggestion is a
couple of generations off. Perhaps She was a daughter of the Howton Conyers branch ?
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: Who was Margaret Boynton (nee Conyers) ?

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 apr 2007 22:31:03

Dear Brad , Leo and others,
The Saltire (Saint Andrew`s
cross) has been used by a number of families. It was favored by the Bruces of
Annandale prior to becoming King of Scots, also by Maurice Fitz gerald, the
Nevilles, le Waleys and in an engrailed form by Tibetot and Kerdiston. The Two bends
with three roundels between them remains an unknown, though the Sudeleys were
one of the few who used only two bends (diagonal bands) (most either used
only one bends or somewhere between three and eight when the whole was known as a
bendy of whatever number)
No Clue as to the six pointed star.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Bob Turcott

RE: Volmar von Huneburg

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 09 apr 2007 03:43:16

Bernhard,

I don't know anything about Humburger, interesting name.
Have a happy easter!!!




From: "Familie Humburger" <drshumburger@gmx.de>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Subject: Volmar von Huneburg
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:14:21 +0200
Can You help me? I am looking for informations conc. the Counts of
Huneburg / Hunebourg / Homburg etc.
(rise and decline of the family), in particular Count Volmar von Huneburg.
Which relation exists between this aristocrats and the place-names of
Homburg/Saar, Hohenbourg (Lembach), Hunebourg (Neuwiller), Abbey Hohenburg
(Mt. Ste. Odile), Hombourg-Budange and Hombourg-Haut?
Can You recommend me some literature on this subject?
With my kindest regards, I remain
sincerely

Bernhard
Humburger

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Ken Ozanne

Re: Homburg

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 09 apr 2007 11:42:44

Bernhard,
Try searching for Homburg on Leo's site
(http://www.genealogics.org/). In particular Folmar, Graf von Metz und
Homburg looks like your man. I had 127 hits, which should be a good start.

Best,
Ken

On 9/4/07 17:05, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
<gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: "Familie Humburger" <drshumburger@gmx.de
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:14:21 +0200
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Volmar von Huneburg

Can You help me? I am looking for informations conc. the Counts of Huneburg
/ Hunebourg / Homburg etc.
(rise and decline of the family), in particular Count Volmar von Huneburg.
Which relation exists between this aristocrats and the place-names of
Homburg/Saar, Hohenbourg (Lembach), Hunebourg (Neuwiller), Abbey Hohenburg
(Mt. Ste. Odile), Hombourg-Budange and Hombourg-Haut?
Can You recommend me some literature on this subject?
With my kindest regards, I remain
sincerely

Bernhard Humburger

Gjest

Re:Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 apr 2007 15:27:29

I have spent a couple of days pursuing this thread, without reaching firm
conclusions.
VCH Staffs has this to say under the manor of Tunstall
(From: 'Tunstall', A History of the County of Stafford: Volume 8 (1963), pp..
81-104.)


<The manor (Tunstall, Staffs) descended in the Audley family
< until the death of Nicholas de Audley in 1391, (fn. 128)
< and as he was childless his estates were divided among his
< three sisters or their heirs. (fn. 129) In 1392 one third
< passed to Margaret, one of these sisters, and her husband
< Roger Hilary. (fn. 130) In 1411, under a settlement of 1392,
< this share was united with that of the Tuchets, the heirs
< of Joan, another sister, and the holders of the Audley
< barony from 1405. (fn. 131) These two parts descended with
< the barony (fn. 132) until 1560
<snip descent of the two thirds>
<The remaining third part of the manor resulting from the
< division after the death of Nicholas de Audley in 1391 was
< the share of Fulk FitzWarin as the grandson of Nicholas's
< third coheir. (fn. 139) It remained with Fulk's descendants
< (earls of Bath from 1536) (fn. 140) until 1620.

<128 Complete Peerage, 'Audley'; CIPM ii, 68,121,287; iii, 408;
< v, 29;vi, 42; Cal. Fine R. 1391–9, 10.
<129 Cal. Close R. 1389–92, 468.
<130 Ibid.
<131 Complete Peerage, 'Audley'; C 137/73; CCR. 1409–13, 254;
< S.H.C. xi. 209.
<132 CP 'Audley'; U.C.N.S., Sneyd MSS., Ct. R. 7/3, 7/5–7/9;
< Tunstall Ct. R. (T.N.S.F.C. lx, lxi), passim;
< L. & P. Hen. VIII, i, p. 96; iv, p. 3183; v, p. 150.
<.....
<139 Cal. Close R. 1389–92, 468. He was 2 years old in 1391,
< and in 1393 his mother Eliz. m. Sir Hugh Courtenay as her
< 2nd husband (Complete Peerage, 'FitzWarin'); Sir Hugh tried
< to secure the wardship of the heir after Eliz's death in 1411:
< C 137/85; CFR. 1405–13, 214; C.C.R. 1409–13, 399–400.
< This explains why this part of the manor was variously
< described as the king's and Courtenay's in 1405 and 'recently
< Courtenay's' in 1416
< (U.C.N.S Sneyd, Ct. R. 7/3) : ibid.
<140 Complete Peerage, 'Bath', 'FitzWarin'; C.C.R 1392–6, 73;
< C.F.R. 1405–13, 214; C/138/52; C 139/51; C 139/65;
< C 142/129/31; S.H.C. n.s. iv. 11; U.C.N.S., Sneyd MSS.,
<Ct. R. 7/3, 7/5–7/9; Tunstall Ct. R. (T.N.S.F.C. lxi), passim;
< ibid. lxii. 65; lxiii. 53.


The points of interest here are:-
1. That VCH asserts that Sir Nicholas Audley, who died in 1391, had heirs
from three, not two, sisters; Margaret the wife of Sir Roger Hilary, Joan, the
ancestress of the Tuchet Lords of Audley, and a third unnamed sister
2. That Fulk Fitzwarin, aged two in 1391, was the grandson of the unnamed
sister

These points can be checked by anybody who has (as I have not, at the
moment) access to the sources cited by VCH, the critical sources being C.C.R
(1389-92), p 468, and any IPM that may exist for Sir Nicholas - the National
Archives online catalogue does not yet show any such. The sources may possibly
provide an explanation for the appearance of Fulk Corbet as a remainderman in the
1375 settlement made by Sir Nicholas, helpfully posted by Douglas
Richardson. Could Sir Fulk Corbet, whose wife Elizabeth is otherwise unknown, perhaps
have married a sister of Sir Nicholas Audley? And could they have had a
daughter, also Elizabeth, married to Fulk Fitzwarin, father of the Fulk, infant in
1391?
The lawsuit of 1388, cited by Douglas Richardson, shows that the 1391 infant
was the grandson of Blanche de Audley, daughter of Sir James de Audley of
Heighley and his second wife Isabella, and wife of the 1391 infant's grandfather
Sir Fulk Fitzwarin. This possible reconstruction of the Fitzwarin family
would require only that the infant Fulk's grandmothers were half sisters (
Blanche, wife of his paternal grandfather, and a hypothetical Elizabeth, sister
of Sir Nicholas, and therefore half sister of Blanche).
Also, it would be consistent with the settlement of 1359/60, mentioned by
Douglas Richardson on April 7th, which, as Douglas said, "has the signs of Fulk
Corbet's being Sir James de Audley's son-in-law"
MM

Gjest

Re:Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 apr 2007 15:27:30

I have spent a couple of days pursuing this thread, without reaching firm
conclusions.
VCH Staffs has this to say under the manor of Tunstall
(From: 'Tunstall', A History of the County of Stafford: Volume 8 (1963), pp..
81-104.)


<The manor (Tunstall, Staffs) descended in the Audley family
< until the death of Nicholas de Audley in 1391, (fn. 128)
< and as he was childless his estates were divided among his
< three sisters or their heirs. (fn. 129) In 1392 one third
< passed to Margaret, one of these sisters, and her husband
< Roger Hilary. (fn. 130) In 1411, under a settlement of 1392,
< this share was united with that of the Tuchets, the heirs
< of Joan, another sister, and the holders of the Audley
< barony from 1405. (fn. 131) These two parts descended with
< the barony (fn. 132) until 1560
<snip descent of the two thirds>
<The remaining third part of the manor resulting from the
< division after the death of Nicholas de Audley in 1391 was
< the share of Fulk FitzWarin as the grandson of Nicholas's
< third coheir. (fn. 139) It remained with Fulk's descendants
< (earls of Bath from 1536) (fn. 140) until 1620.

<128 Complete Peerage, 'Audley'; CIPM ii, 68,121,287; iii, 408;
< v, 29;vi, 42; Cal. Fine R. 1391–9, 10.
<129 Cal. Close R. 1389–92, 468.
<130 Ibid.
<131 Complete Peerage, 'Audley'; C 137/73; CCR. 1409–13, 254;
< S.H.C. xi. 209.
<132 CP 'Audley'; U.C.N.S., Sneyd MSS., Ct. R. 7/3, 7/5–7/9;
< Tunstall Ct. R. (T.N.S.F.C. lx, lxi), passim;
< L. & P. Hen. VIII, i, p. 96; iv, p. 3183; v, p. 150.
<.....
<139 Cal. Close R. 1389–92, 468. He was 2 years old in 1391,
< and in 1393 his mother Eliz. m. Sir Hugh Courtenay as her
< 2nd husband (Complete Peerage, 'FitzWarin'); Sir Hugh tried
< to secure the wardship of the heir after Eliz's death in 1411:
< C 137/85; CFR. 1405–13, 214; C.C.R. 1409–13, 399–400.
< This explains why this part of the manor was variously
< described as the king's and Courtenay's in 1405 and 'recently
< Courtenay's' in 1416
< (U.C.N.S Sneyd, Ct. R. 7/3) : ibid.
<140 Complete Peerage, 'Bath', 'FitzWarin'; C.C.R 1392–6, 73;
< C.F.R. 1405–13, 214; C/138/52; C 139/51; C 139/65;
< C 142/129/31; S.H.C. n.s. iv. 11; U.C.N.S., Sneyd MSS.,
<Ct. R. 7/3, 7/5–7/9; Tunstall Ct. R. (T.N.S.F.C. lxi), passim;
< ibid. lxii. 65; lxiii. 53.


The points of interest here are:-
1. That VCH asserts that Sir Nicholas Audley, who died in 1391, had heirs
from three, not two, sisters; Margaret the wife of Sir Roger Hilary, Joan, the
ancestress of the Tuchet Lords of Audley, and a third unnamed sister
2. That Fulk Fitzwarin, aged two in 1391, was the grandson of the unnamed
sister

These points can be checked by anybody who has (as I have not, at the
moment) access to the sources cited by VCH, the critical sources being C.C.R
(1389-92), p 468, and any IPM that may exist for Sir Nicholas - the National
Archives online catalogue does not yet show any such. The sources may possibly
provide an explanation for the appearance of Fulk Corbet as a remainderman in the
1375 settlement made by Sir Nicholas, helpfully posted by Douglas
Richardson. Could Sir Fulk Corbet, whose wife Elizabeth is otherwise unknown, perhaps
have married a sister of Sir Nicholas Audley? And could they have had a
daughter, also Elizabeth, married to Fulk Fitzwarin, father of the Fulk, infant in
1391?
The lawsuit of 1388, cited by Douglas Richardson, shows that the 1391 infant
was the grandson of Blanche de Audley, daughter of Sir James de Audley of
Heighley and his second wife Isabella, and wife of the 1391 infant's grandfather
Sir Fulk Fitzwarin. This possible reconstruction of the Fitzwarin family
would require only that the infant Fulk's grandmothers were half sisters (
Blanche, wife of his paternal grandfather, and a hypothetical Elizabeth, sister
of Sir Nicholas, and therefore half sister of Blanche).
Also, it would be consistent with the settlement of 1359/60, mentioned by
Douglas Richardson on April 7th, which, as Douglas said, "has the signs of Fulk
Corbet's being Sir James de Audley's son-in-law"
MM

taf

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of

Legg inn av taf » 09 apr 2007 17:54:07

On Apr 9, 6:20 am, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
This possible reconstruction of the Fitzwarin family
would require only that the infant Fulk's grandmothers were half sisters (
Blanche, wife of his paternal grandfather, and a hypothetical Elizabeth, sister
of Sir Nicholas, and therefore half sister of Blanche).

I would find it very surprising if half-first cousins married at this
period. _If_ Fulk FitzW was a coheir, I think it more likely it was
through Blanche.

taf

Gjest

Re: Mediaeval Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 apr 2007 20:01:18

In 1271, Sir William Sinclair of Roslin witnessesd a charter of Nicholas Vipont to the hospital of Soltre, according to Chamlers, Caldeonia. In other documents, it appears that the Viponts were closely connected to the Templars. " Idonea de Vipont, of John Busli her father, gave 13 1/2 bovates of land in Austerfield to the Templars for support of a chapel to celebrate for the soul of Robert de Vipont in House at London." And it also seems that Robert Vipont gave that portion of land in Wicumbe granted to him and Alan Basset to St. Mary and the Knights Templar in 1228. In 1333, Adam Vipont was taken at Haildon Hill and called a Knight's Templar. Any mention of the Viponts would be appreciated.
Pat
From: mjcar@btinternet.com
Date: 2007/04/09 Mon PM 01:05:23 EDT
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Mediaeval Scotland

I am just back from a few days traveling in Scotland. Amongst other
items, I have brought back photographs of various early Sinclair and
templar tombs at Rosslyn Chapel (an amazing place!) - including a
contemporary carving of Sir William Sinclair, 'Prince of Orkney' (d
1484); some late mediaeval tombs at Elgin Cathedral of early members
of the Gordon family, and of some of the Bishops; some mediaeval
clergy tombs at Aberdeen Cathedral (St Machars); the Pictish
sarcophagus at St Andrews which is tentatively ascribed to King Oengus
Mac Fergus (d 761), and Castle Urquhart on Loch Ness.

As usual, I am happy to send copies to anyone interested.

Michael A-R


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Nikolai Scheuring

RE: Volmar von Huneburg

Legg inn av Nikolai Scheuring » 09 apr 2007 20:23:01

Can You help me? I am looking for informations conc. the Counts of
Huneburg / Hunebourg / Homburg etc.
(rise and decline of the family), in particular Count Volmar von Huneburg.
Which relation exists between this aristocrats and the place-names of
Homburg/Saar, Hohenbourg (Lembach), Hunebourg (Neuwiller), Abbey Hohenburg
(Mt. Ste. Odile), Hombourg-Budange and Hombourg-Haut?
Can You recommend me some literature on this subject?
With my kindest regards, I remain
sincerely

Bernhard
Humburger

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Some of these Counts Folmar were called of Bliesgau / of Blieskastel. Therefore I believe its the neighbouring Homburg/Saar.

(Da einige der Grafen Folmar nach Bliesgau oder Blieskastel genannt werden, handelt es sich meiner Meinung nach um das nahe gelegene Homburg/Saar)
_______________________________________________________________
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Hal Bradley

RE: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley,wife of S

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 09 apr 2007 21:02:07

Complete Peerage 1:340 note c confirms a sister named "Margery", wife of Sir
Roger Hillary, and a second sister named "Margery", half-sister of Nicholas
de Audley. The second Margery is identified as the wife of Fulk FitzWarin.

Hal Bradley

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of
Altheavanpay@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:06 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re:Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley,wife of Sir
Fulk Fitz Warin


Could Nicholas have had two sisters named Margaret? I found
the following
notes in my old index file (bef computer) with a notation
"research at later
date". At the time I made no references except University of
Washington. As it
was not my area of interest, I never got back to it.

Althea Van Pay

James Audley, 2nd Lord (b 08.01.1312/3, d 01.04.1386)
m1. Joane Mortimer
dau. Margaret Audley, dsp) m. Sir Roger Hillary

m2. (1351) Isabel le Strange
dau. Margaret Audley m. Fulke FitzWarine, 4th Lord

Tuchet (2 lines of descent from James)


**************************************

See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

-------------------------------
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without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re:Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of S

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 apr 2007 21:11:04

Could Nicholas have had two sisters named Margaret? I found the following
notes in my old index file (bef computer) with a notation "research at later
date". At the time I made no references except University of Washington. As it
was not my area of interest, I never got back to it.

Althea Van Pay

James Audley, 2nd Lord (b 08.01.1312/3, d 01.04.1386)
m1. Joane Mortimer
dau. Margaret Audley, dsp) m. Sir Roger Hillary

m2. (1351) Isabel le Strange
dau. Margaret Audley m. Fulke FitzWarine, 4th Lord

Tuchet (2 lines of descent from James)


**************************************

See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

wjhonson

Re: Mediaeval Scotland

Legg inn av wjhonson » 09 apr 2007 21:58:02

On Apr 9, 12:01 pm, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
In 1271, Sir William Sinclair of Roslin witnessesd a charter of Nicholas Vipont to the hospital of Soltre, according to Chamlers, Caldeonia. In other documents, it appears that the Viponts were closely connected to the Templars. " Idonea de Vipont, of John Busli her father, gave 13 1/2 bovates of land in Austerfield to the Templars for support of a chapel to celebrate for the soul of Robert de Vipont in House at London." And it also seems that Robert Vipont gave that portion of land in Wicumbe granted to him and Alan Basset to St. Mary and the Knights Templar in 1228. In 1333, Adam Vipont was taken at Haildon Hill and called a Knight's Templar. Any mention of the Viponts would be appreciated.
Pat





From: m...@btinternet.com
Date: 2007/04/09 Mon PM 01:05:23 EDT
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Mediaeval Scotland

I am just back from a few days traveling in Scotland. Amongst other
items, I have brought back photographs of various early Sinclair and
templar tombs at Rosslyn Chapel (an amazing place!) - including a
contemporary carving of Sir William Sinclair, 'Prince of Orkney' (d
1484); some late mediaeval tombs at Elgin Cathedral of early members
of the Gordon family, and of some of the Bishops; some mediaeval
clergy tombs at Aberdeen Cathedral (St Machars); the Pictish
sarcophagus at St Andrews which is tentatively ascribed to King Oengus
Mac Fergus (d 761), and Castle Urquhart on Loch Ness.

As usual, I am happy to send copies to anyone interested.

Michael A-R

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Pat could you add a date to the document you quote above re Idonea
(Busli) de Vipont? And a source?
Thanks
Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley,wife of S

Legg inn av wjhonson » 09 apr 2007 22:35:56

On Apr 9, 1:02 pm, "Hal Bradley" <hw.brad...@verizon.net> wrote:
Complete Peerage 1:340 note c confirms a sister named "Margery", wife of Sir
Roger Hillary, and a second sister named "Margery", half-sister of Nicholas
de Audley. The second Margery is identified as the wife of Fulk FitzWarin.

Hal Bradley



-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-boun...@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of
Altheavan...@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:06 PM
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re:Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley,wife of Sir
Fulk Fitz Warin

Could Nicholas have had two sisters named Margaret? I found
the following
notes in my old index file (bef computer) with a notation
"research at later
date". At the time I made no references except University of
Washington. As it
was not my area of interest, I never got back to it.

Althea Van Pay

James Audley, 2nd Lord (b 08.01.1312/3, d 01.04.1386)
m1. Joane Mortimer
dau. Margaret Audley, dsp) m. Sir Roger Hillary

m2. (1351) Isabel le Strange
dau. Margaret Audley m. Fulke FitzWarine, 4th Lord

Tuchet (2 lines of descent from James)

**************************************

See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.

-------------------------------
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without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have a note that PA, "Dudley" says that Roger Hillary married
Katherine de Sutton.
Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of

Legg inn av wjhonson » 09 apr 2007 22:49:14

On Apr 9, 12:06 pm, Altheavan...@aol.com wrote:
Could Nicholas have had two sisters named Margaret? I found the following
notes in my old index file (bef computer) with a notation "research at later
date". At the time I made no references except University of Washington. As it
was not my area of interest, I never got back to it.

Althea Van Pay

James Audley, 2nd Lord (b 08.01.1312/3, d 01.04.1386)
m1. Joane Mortimer
dau. Margaret Audley, dsp) m. Sir Roger Hillary

m2. (1351) Isabel le Strange
dau. Margaret Audley m. Fulke FitzWarine, 4th Lord

Tuchet (2 lines of descent from James)

**************************************

See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.

Wouldn't it be a bit surprising if a half-sister shared equally with
full sisters of Nicholas d'Audley? It seems that VCH is stating
clearly that Blanche was a full sister of Nicholas.
Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of

Legg inn av wjhonson » 09 apr 2007 23:03:00

On Apr 9, 12:06 pm, Altheavan...@aol.com wrote:
Could Nicholas have had two sisters named Margaret? I found the following
notes in my old index file (bef computer) with a notation "research at later
date". At the time I made no references except University of Washington. As it
was not my area of interest, I never got back to it.

Althea Van Pay

James Audley, 2nd Lord (b 08.01.1312/3, d 01.04.1386)
m1. Joane Mortimer
dau. Margaret Audley, dsp) m. Sir Roger Hillary

m2. (1351) Isabel le Strange
dau. Margaret Audley m. Fulke FitzWarine, 4th Lord

Tuchet (2 lines of descent from James)

**************************************

See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.

I think we need to be a bit careful about sources. I'm not sure that
we *know* that they married *in* 1351. At least I don't. I do have
that his first wife Joan was dead sometime between 1337 and 1351 after
having at least three children.

Blanche d'Audley, if she is the mother of Fulk FitzWarin was certainly
herself born by 1348 as he is given a baptismal date of 2 Mar 1362 at
Combe Martin, Devon

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of

Legg inn av wjhonson » 09 apr 2007 23:10:13

On Apr 9, 6:20 am, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
I have spent a couple of days pursuing this thread, without reaching firm
conclusions.
VCH Staffs has this to say under the manor of Tunstall
(From: 'Tunstall', A History of the County of Stafford: Volume 8 (1963), pp.
81-104.)

The manor (Tunstall, Staffs) descended in the Audley family
until the death of Nicholas de Audley in 1391, (fn. 128)
and as he was childless his estates were divided among his
three sisters or their heirs. (fn. 129) In 1392 one third
passed to Margaret, one of these sisters, and her husband
Roger Hilary. (fn. 130) In 1411, under a settlement of 1392,
this share was united with that of the Tuchets, the heirs
of Joan, another sister, and the holders of the Audley
barony from 1405. (fn. 131) These two parts descended with
the barony (fn. 132) until 1560
snip descent of the two thirds
The remaining third part of the manor resulting from the
division after the death of Nicholas de Audley in 1391 was
the share of Fulk FitzWarin as the grandson of Nicholas's
third coheir. (fn. 139) It remained with Fulk's descendants
(earls of Bath from 1536) (fn. 140) until 1620.

128 Complete Peerage, 'Audley'; CIPM ii, 68,121,287; iii, 408;
v, 29;vi, 42; Cal. Fine R. 1391-9, 10.
129 Cal. Close R. 1389-92, 468.
130 Ibid.
131 Complete Peerage, 'Audley'; C 137/73; CCR. 1409-13, 254;
S.H.C. xi. 209.
132 CP 'Audley'; U.C.N.S., Sneyd MSS., Ct. R. 7/3, 7/5-7/9;
Tunstall Ct. R. (T.N.S.F.C. lx, lxi), passim;
L. & P. Hen. VIII, i, p. 96; iv, p. 3183; v, p. 150.
.....
139 Cal. Close R. 1389-92, 468. He was 2 years old in 1391,
and in 1393 his mother Eliz. m. Sir Hugh Courtenay as her
2nd husband (Complete Peerage, 'FitzWarin'); Sir Hugh tried
to secure the wardship of the heir after Eliz's death in 1411:
C 137/85; CFR. 1405-13, 214; C.C.R. 1409-13, 399-400.
This explains why this part of the manor was variously
described as the king's and Courtenay's in 1405 and 'recently
Courtenay's' in 1416
(U.C.N.S Sneyd, Ct. R. 7/3) : ibid.
140 Complete Peerage, 'Bath', 'FitzWarin'; C.C.R 1392-6, 73;
C.F.R. 1405-13, 214; C/138/52; C 139/51; C 139/65;
C 142/129/31; S.H.C. n.s. iv. 11; U.C.N.S., Sneyd MSS.,
Ct. R. 7/3, 7/5-7/9; Tunstall Ct. R. (T.N.S.F.C. lxi), passim;
ibid. lxii. 65; lxiii. 53.

The points of interest here are:-
1. That VCH asserts that Sir Nicholas Audley, who died in 1391, had heirs
from three, not two, sisters; Margaret the wife of Sir Roger Hilary, Joan, the
ancestress of the Tuchet Lords of Audley, and a third unnamed sister
2. That Fulk Fitzwarin, aged two in 1391, was the grandson of the unnamed
sister

These points can be checked by anybody who has (as I have not, at the
moment) access to the sources cited by VCH, the critical sources being C.C.R
(1389-92), p 468, and any IPM that may exist for Sir Nicholas - the National
Archives online catalogue does not yet show any such. The sources may possibly
provide an explanation for the appearance of Fulk Corbet as a remainderman in the
1375 settlement made by Sir Nicholas, helpfully posted by Douglas
Richardson. Could Sir Fulk Corbet, whose wife Elizabeth is otherwise unknown, perhaps
have married a sister of Sir Nicholas Audley? And could they have had a
daughter, also Elizabeth, married to Fulk Fitzwarin, father of the Fulk, infant in
1391?
The lawsuit of 1388, cited by Douglas Richardson, shows that the 1391 infant
was the grandson of Blanche de Audley, daughter of Sir James de Audley of
Heighley and his second wife Isabella, and wife of the 1391 infant's grandfather
Sir Fulk Fitzwarin. This possible reconstruction of the Fitzwarin family
would require only that the infant Fulk's grandmothers were half sisters (
Blanche, wife of his paternal grandfather, and a hypothetical Elizabeth, sister
of Sir Nicholas, and therefore half sister of Blanche).
Also, it would be consistent with the settlement of 1359/60, mentioned by
Douglas Richardson on April 7th, which, as Douglas said, "has the signs of Fulk
Corbet's being Sir James de Audley's son-in-law"
MM

I think VCH might be confused on the wifes of Sir Hugh Courtenay.
Douglas Richardson has stated on this point that Sir Hugh Courtenay
married Elizabeth Cogan sometime between 1 Jun 1392 and 11 Feb 1393
and that she died on 29 Oct 1397. His next wife Philippa l'Archdekne
"co-heir of her father" is not known to have died *in* 1411, but
rather was living in 1411.

With his final wife Maud Beaumont married After 1410 he had two more
children before his own death on 15 mar 1425

Will Johnson

Gjest

RE: Re: Avise de Lancaster

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 apr 2007 23:21:49

Andrew,

I believe the order suggested by some resources needs to be amended. Ivo de Veteripont was married both a Sybil and an Isabella, but in which order?

1226 Ivo de Vipont-- Seised of lands in Blencarn, Amsliplith (?), and Waverton, in right of his wife, Isabella dec'd.:Harrison’s History of Yorkshire.

In 1211-12, Juliana the widow of Adam de Ireby claimed dower in Ainstable and Blencarn from William de Thoresby and by 1226-7 Bernard de Thursby was plaintiff in proceedings taken against Ivo de Vipont and Sybil. CWAAS

It would appear that his wife, Isabel held some part of these properties. 'Early Yorkshire Families' and describes the descent of the Thoresby and Staveley families from Gospatric son of Archil Gospatric held of count Alan a carucate in Thoresby, in Carperby, Par. Aysgarth, and a manor in Askrigg, par. Aysgarth, formerly held by Archil. Publications of the Thoresby Society illustrates a descent from Gospatric, who held Thoresby in 1086, and a daughter of Dolfin son of Thorfin showing the Thorsby and Allerston families. Ivo’s brother, Robert de Vipont was to have married Helen of Allerston who was underage in 1189. She married first Hugh de Hastings who died before 1204. In Feb 1207/1208 King John gave the marriage of the widow to Robert Vipont. I continue to attempt a verification of this marriage. He married secondly, Idonea de Busli by whom he had John de Vipont born 1213.

1227 Ivo, together with his second wife, Sybil held land in Blencarn, Ainstable and Waverton [Feet of fines, Cumberland, 11 H. 3] CWAAS. In this same year, Hugh de Vipont was given lands by Bernard de Thoresby. Could Bernard have been uncle to this Hugh?

Will very much appreciate observations, since, I believe that it is Sybil’s name that is to be discovered.

Pat


I can only add a remark of questionable value. FW Ragg in his 1910 article
called "De Lancaster" has a family tree page with an unexplained isolated
marriage showing for Isabel and Ivo. The only fact given apart from that
marriage is that Isabel was dead before 1227. Ragg apparently forgot to
explain this in the text! I presume a charter from around 1227 shows Ivo as
married to someone else for example?

Now in the article, Ragg explains how he was finally convinced that William
de Lancaster II really did have a son named Gilbert, and how he must have
died about 1220. So we get the impression in any case that William de
Lancaster II was having children long before he married Avice de Stutevill
who must have been born around 1165?? (She apparently gave birth to a third
husband in the 1200s.) There was also perhaps a son named Jordan. However
William's heir was his much younger daughter also called Avice, who married
Gilbert fitz Reinfrid, so I see no reason to doubt that she was named after
her mother.

I think it has been remarked already on this list that a similar thing may
have happened with William de Lancaster I: his children seem much too young
to be the children of his known wife, Gundred, at least if we understand her
to be Gundred de Warenne on a second marriage.

Regards
Andrew

Gjest

Re: Re: Mediaeval Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 09 apr 2007 23:30:09

The Preceptory of Newland, York,” The Yorkshire Archaeological Society Record Series. Vol. LXI
From: "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com
Date: 2007/04/09 Mon PM 04:58:02 EDT
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Mediaeval Scotland

On Apr 9, 12:01 pm, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
In 1271, Sir William Sinclair of Roslin witnessesd a charter of Nicholas Vipont to the hospital of Soltre, according to Chamlers, Caldeonia. In other documents, it appears that the Viponts were closely connected to the Templars. " Idonea de Vipont, of John Busli her father, gave 13 1/2 bovates of land in Austerfield to the Templars for support of a chapel to celebrate for the soul of Robert de Vipont in House at London." And it also seems that Robert Vipont gave that portion of land in Wicumbe granted to him and Alan Basset to St. Mary and the Knights Templar in 1228. In 1333, Adam Vipont was taken at Haildon Hill and called a Knight's Templar. Any mention of the Viponts would be appreciated.
Pat





From: m...@btinternet.com
Date: 2007/04/09 Mon PM 01:05:23 EDT
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Mediaeval Scotland

I am just back from a few days traveling in Scotland. Amongst other
items, I have brought back photographs of various early Sinclair and
templar tombs at Rosslyn Chapel (an amazing place!) - including a
contemporary carving of Sir William Sinclair, 'Prince of Orkney' (d
1484); some late mediaeval tombs at Elgin Cathedral of early members
of the Gordon family, and of some of the Bishops; some mediaeval
clergy tombs at Aberdeen Cathedral (St Machars); the Pictish
sarcophagus at St Andrews which is tentatively ascribed to King Oengus
Mac Fergus (d 761), and Castle Urquhart on Loch Ness.

As usual, I am happy to send copies to anyone interested.

Michael A-R

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Pat could you add a date to the document you quote above re Idonea
(Busli) de Vipont? And a source?
Thanks
Will Johnson


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Gjest

Re: Descent From Edward III For Elizabeth Barton of Whenby (

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 apr 2007 00:01:03

Dear Brad ,
About when was Edward Barton of Thornbridge (younger son
of Edward Barton of Whenby and Frances Norton born ? I have an Edward who was
in New England circa 1640, He had a wife Elizabeth and removed to Maine in abt
1647 a daughter born say 1636 ? married a John Purington seems to have been
their eldest child. Edward is said to have been at Marblehead in 1643 for about
4 years. The single most curious thing about this Edward Barton was the
manner in which is is referred in public records "landowner" rather than yeoman,
gentleman, mariner, fisherman, inn keeper , merchant or deacon. He died at Cape
Porpus, Maine in July 1671, when Elizabeth recieved administration on his
estate. their grandaughter Mary Holman (nee Barton) was an ancestress to
President, Senators and Governor Taft of Ohio.
Source : GDMNH p 79.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



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wjhonson

Re: Mediaeval Scotland

Legg inn av wjhonson » 10 apr 2007 00:10:46

On Apr 9, 3:30 pm, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
The Preceptory of Newland, York," The Yorkshire Archaeological Society Record Series. Vol. LXI





From: "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com
Date: 2007/04/09 Mon PM 04:58:02 EDT
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Mediaeval Scotland

On Apr 9, 12:01 pm, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
In 1271, Sir William Sinclair of Roslin witnessesd a charter of Nicholas Vipont to the hospital of Soltre, according to Chamlers, Caldeonia. In other documents, it appears that the Viponts were closely connected to the Templars. " Idonea de Vipont, of John Busli her father, gave 13 1/2 bovates of land in Austerfield to the Templars for support of a chapel to celebrate for the soul of Robert de Vipont in House at London." And it also seems that Robert Vipont gave that portion of land in Wicumbe granted to him and Alan Basset to St. Mary and the Knights Templar in 1228. In 1333, Adam Vipont was taken at Haildon Hill and called a Knight's Templar. Any mention of the Viponts would be appreciated.
Pat

From: m...@btinternet.com
Date: 2007/04/09 Mon PM 01:05:23 EDT
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Mediaeval Scotland

I am just back from a few days traveling in Scotland. Amongst other
items, I have brought back photographs of various early Sinclair and
templar tombs at Rosslyn Chapel (an amazing place!) - including a
contemporary carving of Sir William Sinclair, 'Prince of Orkney' (d
1484); some late mediaeval tombs at Elgin Cathedral of early members
of the Gordon family, and of some of the Bishops; some mediaeval
clergy tombs at Aberdeen Cathedral (St Machars); the Pictish
sarcophagus at St Andrews which is tentatively ascribed to King Oengus
Mac Fergus (d 761), and Castle Urquhart on Loch Ness.

As usual, I am happy to send copies to anyone interested.

Michael A-R

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- Show quoted text -

Pat could you add a date to the document you quote above re Idonea
(Busli) de Vipont? And a source?
Thanks
Will Johnson

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And what's the date?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Documents Online trouble

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 apr 2007 00:11:02

Dear Michael,
I made two attempts yesterday to which the site was
wholy unresponsive and told me to try again later.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



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wjhonson

Re: Avise de Lancaster

Legg inn av wjhonson » 10 apr 2007 00:25:30

On Apr 9, 3:21 pm, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Andrew,

I believe the order suggested by some resources needs to be amended. Ivo de Veteripont was married both a Sybil and an Isabella, but in which order?

1226 Ivo de Vipont-- Seised of lands in Blencarn, Amsliplith (?), and Waverton, in right of his wife, Isabella dec'd.:Harrison's History of Yorkshire.

In 1211-12, Juliana the widow of Adam de Ireby claimed dower in Ainstable and Blencarn from William de Thoresby and by 1226-7 Bernard de Thursby was plaintiff in proceedings taken against Ivo de Vipont and Sybil. CWAAS

It would appear that his wife, Isabel held some part of these properties. 'Early Yorkshire Families' and describes the descent of the Thoresby and Staveley families from Gospatric son of Archil Gospatric held of count Alan a carucate in Thoresby, in Carperby, Par. Aysgarth, and a manor in Askrigg, par. Aysgarth, formerly held by Archil. Publications of the Thoresby Society illustrates a descent from Gospatric, who held Thoresby in 1086, and a daughter of Dolfin son of Thorfin showing the Thorsby and Allerston families. Ivo's brother, Robert de Vipont was to have married Helen of Allerston who was underage in 1189. She married first Hugh de Hastings who died before 1204. In Feb 1207/1208 King John gave the marriage of the widow to Robert Vipont. I continue to attempt a verification of this marriage. He married secondly, Idonea de Busli by whom he had John de Vipont born 1213.

1227 Ivo, together with his second wife, Sybil held land in Blencarn, Ainstable and Waverton [Feet of fines, Cumberland, 11 H. 3] CWAAS. In this same year, Hugh de Vipont was given lands by Bernard de Thoresby. Could Bernard have been uncle to this Hugh?

Will very much appreciate observations, since, I believe that it is Sybil's name that is to be discovered.

Pat





I can only add a remark of questionable value. FW Ragg in his 1910 article
called "De Lancaster" has a family tree page with an unexplained isolated
marriage showing for Isabel and Ivo. The only fact given apart from that
marriage is that Isabel was dead before 1227. Ragg apparently forgot to
explain this in the text! I presume a charter from around 1227 shows Ivo as
married to someone else for example?

Now in the article, Ragg explains how he was finally convinced that William
de Lancaster II really did have a son named Gilbert, and how he must have
died about 1220. So we get the impression in any case that William de
Lancaster II was having children long before he married Avice de Stutevill
who must have been born around 1165?? (She apparently gave birth to a third
husband in the 1200s.) There was also perhaps a son named Jordan. However
William's heir was his much younger daughter also called Avice, who married
Gilbert fitz Reinfrid, so I see no reason to doubt that she was named after
her mother.

I think it has been remarked already on this list that a similar thing may
have happened with William de Lancaster I: his children seem much too young
to be the children of his known wife, Gundred, at least if we understand her
to be Gundred de Warenne on a second marriage.

Regards
Andrew- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How is it, we know the exact year in which John de Vipont was born?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Documents Online trouble

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 apr 2007 00:51:02

I've had the same trouble a few hours ago, hopefully their staff will fix
the problem after the easter holidays.

Adrian



In a message dated 09/04/2007 21:05:45 GMT Standard Time, mardicar@yahoo.com
writes:

I have tried for two days to download some PCC wills from Documents
Online on the National Archives site. I keep getting a page telling
me that I triggered an error and to try again later. Does anyone know
what is going on? Is anyone else having problems with this?

Mardi

Louise Staley

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 10 apr 2007 01:10:07

wjhonson wrote:
snip

I think VCH might be confused on the wifes of Sir Hugh Courtenay.
Douglas Richardson has stated on this point that Sir Hugh Courtenay
married Elizabeth Cogan sometime between 1 Jun 1392 and 11 Feb 1393
and that she died on 29 Oct 1397. His next wife Philippa l'Archdekne
"co-heir of her father" is not known to have died *in* 1411, but
rather was living in 1411.

With his final wife Maud Beaumont married After 1410 he had two more
children before his own death on 15 mar 1425

Will Johnson

Didn't that Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe have four wives?


1. Elizabeth, widow of Thomas Audley, married about 1387, she died 1
June 1392. No children. Thomas Audley was the son of Sir James Audley
and Isabel Fitz Walter
2. Elizabeth Cogan, married between 1 June 1392 and 11 Feb 1393, she
died 29 October 1397. No children.
3. Philippa Arcedekne, married before 1407, she died before October
1417. Two daughters, Joan born 14 August 1411, wife of Nicholas Carew of
Molesford, Eleanor, wife of Richard Burgh of Upper Connaught, Ireland.
4. Maud Beaumont, married 16 October 1417, she died 3 July 1467. Two
sons and a daughter. Edward, born about 1417, died before 1468 sp, Sir
Hugh of Boconnoc, died 5 May 1471 at Tewkesbury, left issue by his wife
Margaret Carminow, Margaret, married Sir John Arundell of Trerice. She
died sp.

Louise

wjhonson

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of

Legg inn av wjhonson » 10 apr 2007 01:40:07

Louise here is what I have on the wives of Sir Hugh Courtenay of
Haccombe, Devonshire. Knighted in 1395. Died 15 Mar 1425

Douglas Richardson, here on 12/14/06 stated that Elizabeth FitzPayn's
inquistion states that she died 1 June 1394, he stated however that
she must have really died prior to 4 June 1393 "when the first of the
inquisitions on her father's estate was taken naming his SOLE heir as
Elizabeth's sister Isabel de Poynings" Likewise, on 11 Feb 1393, her
surviving husband Hugh Courtenay was pardoned for marrying without a
license his second wife Elizabeth Cogan widow of Fulk FitzWarin of
Whittington, Shropshire (etc), daughter and heiress of William Cogan,
Knt of Bampton, Devonshire.

Strangly (to me) DR's reference was this last bit is a modern work
"Ward, Women of the English Nobility and Gentry 1055-1500 (1995)
30-31".

Shouldn't this be *re-sourced* to the actual primary source? Wouldn't
it be in CPR or something?

Will Johnson

WJhonson

Re: Descents From Edward III For Sir Marmaduke Beckwith, 3rd

Legg inn av WJhonson » 10 apr 2007 02:09:58

In brief you are saying
Sir Henry Boynton m 1449 Isabel Lumley, was a son of Christopher Boynton d 1485 by Agnes Scrope dau of John Lord Scrope who d 1498

This is not chronologically possible for the following reasons.
John, 5th Lord Scrope is known to have been born 22 Jul 1438
Not only would his purported daughter Agnes be too young to be his mother, but even *her* purported father would be too young to have a son himself marrying in 1449

Rather I propose that Agnes (Scrope) Boynton was a daughter of Henry, 4th Lord Scrope of Bolton (b 1418 d 1459) by his wife (and cousin) Elizabeth le Scrope. Although, even with *this* parentage the chronology is stretched.

Will Johnson



In a message dated 04/07/07 12:06:49 Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870 writes:
Dear Douglas and others,
According to The Colonial Genealogist
XI: numbers 3-4 article The Yorkshire Background of the Boyntons of Rowley by
Robert J Curfman, MA , FAS/hc, FSC Associatate Editor p 88 gives Sir Henry
Boynton of Sedbury and Castle Leavington j.u. Lord of Ravensworth, married 1449
Isabel Lumley, daughter and heir of Bertram Lumley, Lord of Ravensworth by whom
Isabel, wife of Sir Henry Gascoigne. Sir Henry Boynton was the son of Sir
Christopher Boynton of Over and Nether Sedbury who died 9 July 1485 by Agnes Scrope,
daughter of John, Lord Scrope of Bolton (died 1498). Agnes soon married Sir
Richard Ratcliffe (died 1485) KG, Counsellor to King Richard III, High Sheriff
of Westmoreland and Steward of Wakefield, Sir Christopher Boynton was the son
of Christopher Boynton Esq of Sedbury died 1451 and his 2nd wife (married
1438) Joan Strangeways,died 1488/9 daughter of Robert Strangeways of Skelton and
previously wife to Conan Barton, Lord of Whenby who died 1436
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



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Alan R Grey

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of

Legg inn av Alan R Grey » 10 apr 2007 02:11:40

wjhonson wrote:
Louise here is what I have on the wives of Sir Hugh Courtenay of
Haccombe, Devonshire. Knighted in 1395. Died 15 Mar 1425

Douglas Richardson, here on 12/14/06 stated that Elizabeth FitzPayn's
inquistion states that she died 1 June 1394, he stated however that
she must have really died prior to 4 June 1393 "when the first of the
inquisitions on her father's estate was taken naming his SOLE heir as
Elizabeth's sister Isabel de Poynings" Likewise, on 11 Feb 1393, her
surviving husband Hugh Courtenay was pardoned for marrying without a
license his second wife Elizabeth Cogan widow of Fulk FitzWarin of
Whittington, Shropshire (etc), daughter and heiress of William Cogan,
Knt of Bampton, Devonshire.

Strangly (to me) DR's reference was this last bit is a modern work
"Ward, Women of the English Nobility and Gentry 1055-1500 (1995)
30-31".

Shouldn't this be *re-sourced* to the actual primary source? Wouldn't
it be in CPR or something?


Quite right. It is in CPR Ric. II, Vol. 5, p.225

16 Ric II, m.3, 11 Feb (1393), "Pardon to Elizabeth, late the wife of
Fulk Fitz Waryn, knight, tenant in chief, and Hugh Courtenay, the king's
kinsman, for intermarrying without licence."

Alan R Grey

Gjest

Re: Descents From Edward III For Sir Marmaduke Beckwith, 3rd

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 apr 2007 04:36:03

Dear Will,
Quite right. Stirnet.com gives Agnes as the daughter of
Henry, Lord Scrope of Bolton .
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

John Watson

Re: Descents From Edward III For Sir Marmaduke Beckwith, 3rd

Legg inn av John Watson » 10 apr 2007 06:18:33

On Apr 10, 10:30 am, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Will,
Quite right. Stirnet.com gives Agnes as the daughter of
Henry, Lord Scrope of Bolton .
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

************************************** See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.


Agnes Scrope, dau of Henry Scrope (1418-1459) living August 1498, m1
Sir Christopher Boynton of Sadbury,co. York, Knt. m2. ante 1498 Sir
Richard Radclyffe, of Sadbury, K.G. and Banneret; Slain at Bosworth
22 August 1485.
[The Controversy Between Sir Richard Scrope and Sir Robert Grosvenor,
Vol II, N. Harris Nicolas, 1832, p 60]

Regards,

John

Louise Staley

Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Blanche de Audley, wife of

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 10 apr 2007 08:36:57

Alan R Grey & Will Johnson both addressed the identity of Hugh
Courtenay's first wife and Alan cited the original evidence:

Quite right. It is in CPR Ric. II, Vol. 5, p.225

16 Ric II, m.3, 11 Feb (1393), "Pardon to Elizabeth, late the wife of
Fulk Fitz Waryn, knight, tenant in chief, and Hugh Courtenay, the king's
kinsman, for intermarrying without licence."

Alan R Grey

Thank-you for that. To recap the many wives of Hugh Courtenay:

Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe etc., born after 1358, died 5 March 1425,
buried at Haccombe, Devon. Son of Sir Edward Courtenay of Godlington and
Emmeline Dauney.

Hugh married four times.
1. Elizabeth Fitzpayn [1], daughter of Sir Robert Fitzpayn, 4th Baron
Fitzpayn and Elizabeth Bryan, widow of Thomas Audley [2], married about
14 March 1387 [4], she died 1 June 1392 [1]. No children by either husband.

2. Elizabeth Cogan [3], daughter and heiress of Sir William Cogan and
Isabel Loring, widow of Sir Fulk (IX) Fitzwarine [3], 5th Baron
Fitzwarine, married between 1 June 1392 [1] and 11 Feb 1393 [3], she
died 29 October 1397 [3]. No children by Hugh Courtenay.

3. Philippa Arcedekne [2], daughter and co-heiress of Sir Warin
Arcedekne, 3rd Baron Arcedekne and Elizabeth Talbot, married before 1407
[2], she died before October 1417. Two daughters [2], Joan born 14
August 1411, wife of Nicholas Carew of Molesford then Sir Robert Vere
[2], Eleanor, wife of Richard Burgh of Upper Connaught, Ireland.

4. Maud Beaumont [2], daughter of Sir William Beaumont of Heanton
Punchardon and Isabel Willington, married 16 October 1417 [2], she died
3 July 1467 [5]. Two sons and a daughter; Edward, Hugh and Margaret.
Edward, born about 1417, died before 1468 s.p., Sir Hugh of Boconnoc,
died 5 May 1471 at Tewkesbury, left issue by his wife Margaret Carminow,
Margaret, married Sir John Arundell of Trerice [see note below]. She
died sps.

*Note*
There remains considerable confusion and misinformation about the
identity (and existence) of the daughter Margaret. Richardson in
/Plantagenet Ancestry/ repeats the /Visitation of Cornwall/ suggestion
that she married Theobald Grenville. This is impossible on chronological
grounds, (for discussion see the SGM thread "Parents of Margaret
Courtenay" from April 2001). Another common candidate for the husband of
this Margaret Courtenay is Sir John Arundell of *Tolverne* who died in
1461. However the Courteany who married Sir John Arundell of Tolverne
was named Maud and was the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Boconnoc
and his wife Margaret Carminow [6] making Maud the granddaughter of Sir
Hugh of Haccombe. There is I believe another candidate for the daughter
of Hugh of Haccombe and Maud Beaumont and that is as the wife of Sir
John Arundell of Trerice who married Anne Moyle. I think Margaret
Courtenay was his first wife and she died either sp or sps. This is
shown on Stirnet apparently following Burke so not a lot to go on hence
the possibility there was no daughter Margaret at all.

Sources
[1] Douglas Richardson, post to the newsgroup SGM "Complete Peerage
Addition: Elizabeth Fitzpayn, wife of Thomas de Audley and Hugh
Courtenay," December 14 2006.
[2] David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century
Colonists," Boston: NEHGS, 1999.
[3] Vicary Gibbs (ed.) "The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland,
Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct, or
Dormant," 13 in 14 vols. Vol.3:359-60. London: St. Catherine Press, 1912.
[4] CPR Ric. II, Vol. 5, p.225.
[5] Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry," Baltimore: Genealogical
Publishing Society, 2004, p240:11.
[6] Charles Worthy, "The History of the Suburbs of Exeter," London: 1892.


Louise

Paul Mackenzie

Re: Documents Online trouble

Legg inn av Paul Mackenzie » 10 apr 2007 09:29:20

ADRIANCHANNING02@aol.com wrote:


I've had the same trouble a few hours ago, hopefully their staff will fix
the problem after the easter holidays.

Adrian



In a message dated 09/04/2007 21:05:45 GMT Standard Time, mardicar@yahoo.com
writes:

I have tried for two days to download some PCC wills from Documents
Online on the National Archives site. I keep getting a page telling
me that I triggered an error and to try again later. Does anyone know
what is going on? Is anyone else having problems with this?

Mardi








Yes. I was searching the site map feature of the documents online page.

I was looking for the beginners latin page, and when I searched for
these words on the site map, it told me I triggered an error and try
again latter.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Descents From Edward III For Sir Marmaduke Beckwith, 3rd

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 10 apr 2007 11:09:08

In message of 10 Apr, WJhonson <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

In brief you are saying
Sir Henry Boynton m 1449 Isabel Lumley, was a son of Christopher
Boynton d 1485 by Agnes Scrope dau of John Lord Scrope who d 1498

This is not chronologically possible for the following reasons.
John, 5th Lord Scrope is known to have been born 22 Jul 1438
Not only would his purported daughter Agnes be too young to be his
mother, but even *her* purported father would be too young to have a
son himself marrying in 1449

Rather I propose that Agnes (Scrope) Boynton was a daughter of Henry,
4th Lord Scrope of Bolton (b 1418 d 1459) by his wife (and cousin)
Elizabeth le Scrope. Although, even with *this* parentage the
chronology is stretched.

Some support to this is given by the entry for Boynton of Sedbury in the
Yorks visitation of 1584/5, pub Foster 1875, p. 4, where Agnes is shown
as the dau. of an otherwise unspecified Henry lord Scrope.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gérard BIEBER

Re: Volmar von Huneburg

Legg inn av Gérard BIEBER » 10 apr 2007 14:22:59

Can You help me? I am looking for informations conc. the Counts of
Huneburg / Hunebourg / Homburg etc.

Hunebourg is a castle in nord-Vosges (Alsace).
Aim= protection of Neuwiller (les-Saverne) abbey depending of the bishop
from Metz.

Folmar I was count in Metz (+ab.996) and Bliesgau (saar)
Folmar II (+ab.1029)
Gottfried
Folmar III (+ab.1087) m. with Spanehilde to be related with count of
Alsace-Eguisheim-Dabo (dagsburg)
Folmar IV de Metz (+1110). He was probably in charge of the protection of
Neuwiller.
He also had a brother, Gottfried i. Bliesgau. relation to Homburg.
This brother had a son Gottfried. descendents= counts of Bliescastle/
and also Thierry (Dietrich) who was put in possession of Hûnenbourg, when
the Folmar branch died.

Mt. St Odile is an old abbey owned by Etichonen. If related with Hunebourg,
so probabely through
Spanehilde.

G.B.

alden@mindspring.com

Re: Descents From Edward III For Sir Marmaduke Beckwith, 3rd

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 10 apr 2007 22:19:15

I am not an expert on the Boynton line but some of the earliest part
of this discussion appears to collapse some generations. See:

Margaret Imrie, The Manor Houses of Burton Agnes and their Owners,
(1993), Hutton Press, p 118.
John F. Boynton, Boynton Directory (1884), CS 71.b 7926.
Douglas Boynton Quine, Boynton Genealogy 34 Generations at
http://www.quine.org/boynton.html.
VCH of the County of York North Riding, Vol., 2, (1923), pps 221-223,
366-371.
Blair, C. H. Hunter, ed., A Visitation of the North of England circa
1480-1500, (1930), Visitations of the North, Part III, Publications of
the Surtees Society, vol. 144, p 114.
Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 114
(Boynton pedigree).

As I understand it:

1. Sir Thomas B. d. 1299 m Katherine Rossell
2. Sir Thomas B. d. 1386 m. nn Ingleby and then Margaret Specton
3. Sir Henry B. d. 1405 m.m Elizabeth Merriefield
4. William B. d 1425 m. Jane Harding
5. Sir Thomas B. d. 1460 m Isabel Normanville
6a. Sir Henry B. d. 1485 m. Margaret de la See
7. Sir Thomas d. 1523 m. Cecily Strangeways
6b. Sir Christopher B. d 1451 m. Elizabeth Conyers
7. Sir Christopher B. d 1483m. Elizabeth de Wandesford

As a reconstruction of the early part of the family. That said,
Flower is not necessarily reliable. Please note that this is a
reconstruction, I am not saying that this is all proven. Good
hunting!

Doug Smith

Leo van de Pas

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 11 apr 2007 00:13:14

Fascinating and interesting, pity there is no indication given as to from
where his line has started. I always thought the Bourbon-Busset line was
(without rights to a throne) the senior line.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia



----- Original Message -----
From: "steven perkins" <scperkins@gmail.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: OT: The Last King of France?


An interesting article on a Bourbon in India.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/last-king-of-france.html

--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
On-Line Journal of Genetics and Genealogy
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
Steven C. Perkins' Genealogy Page
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html

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Peter Stewart

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 apr 2007 00:28:51

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.700.1176246818.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Fascinating and interesting, pity there is no indication given as to from
where his line has started. I always thought the Bourbon-Busset line was
(without rights to a throne) the senior line.

The Bourbon family in Bhopal traces back to Jean, son of Charles III, count
of Montpensier (killed in Rome 1527), who was duke of Bourbon by right of
his wife Suzanne (died 1521). They had no children surviving infancy, and
the dukedom of Bourbon passed to a junior line of the family, from which the
kings of Navarre and France descend.

A few years after Suzanne's death, Charles fathered Jean and a daughter
Catherine, whose mother was supposed to be a relative of the Mongol khan.
Jean lived at the court in Delhi. This is well-known and far from being
newly "discovered" by Michael of Greece. The exotic mistress of Charles,
Jean's mother, was apparently never married to him, so there is no dynastic
surprise in store for the European relatives anyway.

Peter Stewart


----- Original Message -----
From: "steven perkins" <scperkins@gmail.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: OT: The Last King of France?


An interesting article on a Bourbon in India.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/last-king-of-france.html

--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
On-Line Journal of Genetics and Genealogy
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
Steven C. Perkins' Genealogy Page
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html

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norenxaq

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av norenxaq » 11 apr 2007 00:35:16

A few years after Suzanne's death, Charles fathered Jean and a daughter
Catherine, whose mother was supposed to be a relative of the Mongol khan.
Jean lived at the court in Delhi. This is well-known and far from being
newly "discovered" by Michael of Greece. The exotic mistress of Charles,
Jean's mother, was apparently never married to him, so there is no dynastic
surprise in store for the European relatives anyway.

Peter Stewart



which mongol khan and how were they supposed to bbe related?


there were sevaral at this time

Peter Stewart

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 apr 2007 00:52:34

"norenxaq" <norenxaq@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.701.1176248269.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

A few years after Suzanne's death, Charles fathered Jean and a daughter
Catherine, whose mother was supposed to be a relative of the Mongol khan.
Jean lived at the court in Delhi. This is well-known and far from being
newly "discovered" by Michael of Greece. The exotic mistress of Charles,
Jean's mother, was apparently never married to him, so there is no
dynastic surprise in store for the European relatives anyway.

Peter Stewart


which mongol khan and how were they supposed to bbe related?

there were sevaral at this time

I don't remember the details, or even if exact information is on the
record - I vaguely think she was supposed to be a daughter or granddaughter
of Babur, and if so a sister or niece of Humayun and an aunt or cousin of
Akbar. I imagine a Google search for Bourbon + Bhopal or similar will yield
something firmer than my recollection.

Peter Stewart

taf

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av taf » 11 apr 2007 01:43:23

On Apr 10, 4:52 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

I don't remember the details, or even if exact information is on the
record - I vaguely think she was supposed to be a daughter or granddaughter
of Babur, and if so a sister or niece of Humayun and an aunt or cousin of
Akbar. I imagine a Google search for Bourbon + Bhopal or similar will yield
something firmer than my recollection.

http://bhopale.blogspot.com/2006/12/fre ... ction.html

says sister-in-law of Akbar, the wife being a Portuguese captive. Also
see:

http://bhopale.blogspot.com/2006/12/bou ... hopal.html

taf

Peter Stewart

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 11 apr 2007 03:19:34

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1176252203.023637.260720@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 10, 4:52 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

I don't remember the details, or even if exact information is on the
record - I vaguely think she was supposed to be a daughter or
granddaughter
of Babur, and if so a sister or niece of Humayun and an aunt or cousin of
Akbar. I imagine a Google search for Bourbon + Bhopal or similar will
yield
something firmer than my recollection.

http://bhopale.blogspot.com/2006/12/fre ... ction.html

says sister-in-law of Akbar, the wife being a Portuguese captive. Also
see:

http://bhopale.blogspot.com/2006/12/bou ... hopal.html

This story is about the following generation, referring to the marriage of
Jean-Philippe himself rather than to his own birth from an affair between a
Bourbon prince, Charles, count of Montpensier, and a purported blood
relative of the Mughal khan. Strange that in such narratives every nubile
female captive is beautiful, and eventually becomes a queen somewhere - even
in the Maldives - if she wasn't an Abyssinian princess to start with. Eat
your heart out, Princess Caraboo....

Jean-Philippe was not regarded by anyone in France as a legitimate son of
Charles, so that the "recognition" of Balthasar in Bhopal as anything other
than the descendant of a by-blow of the Bourbon lineage is wishful thinking.

Peter Stewart

Francisco Tavares de Alme

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av Francisco Tavares de Alme » 11 apr 2007 10:01:35

Dear Peter

« Strange that in such narratives every nubile
female captive is beautiful, and eventually becomes a queen somewhere - even
in the Maldives - if she wasn't an Abyssinian princess to start with. Eat
your heart out, Princess Caraboo.... »

Sorry to contradict your scepticism but there were two portuguese
queens of Maldives between 1570-80? e 1655.
Not captives, beautiful I do not know, but queens.
A deposed king Hassan IX, Sultan of Aceh, asked for protection of the
portuguese in Cochim in 1552, later converted himsef to christianism -
baptised by St. Francis Xavier - and married a portuguese of very high
rank Dona Leonor de Ataíde. His son and heir also married a
portuguese, Francisca de Vasconcelos and if, in spite of several
attempts, they never recovered the throne they were treated as kings
even in by king John IV who received them in Portugal in 1641.

Best regards,
Francisco




Peter Stewart escreveu:
"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1176252203.023637.260720@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 10, 4:52 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

I don't remember the details, or even if exact information is on the
record - I vaguely think she was supposed to be a daughter or
granddaughter
of Babur, and if so a sister or niece of Humayun and an aunt or cousin of
Akbar. I imagine a Google search for Bourbon + Bhopal or similar will
yield
something firmer than my recollection.

http://bhopale.blogspot.com/2006/12/fre ... ction.html

says sister-in-law of Akbar, the wife being a Portuguese captive. Also
see:

http://bhopale.blogspot.com/2006/12/bou ... hopal.html

This story is about the following generation, referring to the marriage of
Jean-Philippe himself rather than to his own birth from an affair between a
Bourbon prince, Charles, count of Montpensier, and a purported blood
relative of the Mughal khan. Strange that in such narratives every nubile
female captive is beautiful, and eventually becomes a queen somewhere - even
in the Maldives - if she wasn't an Abyssinian princess to start with. Eat
your heart out, Princess Caraboo....

Jean-Philippe was not regarded by anyone in France as a legitimate son of
Charles, so that the "recognition" of Balthasar in Bhopal as anything other
than the descendant of a by-blow of the Bourbon lineage is wishful thinking.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 apr 2007 10:54:25

On Apr 11, 10:01 am, "Francisco Tavares de Almeida"
<francisco.tavaresdealme...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Peter

« Strange that in such narratives every nubile

female captive is beautiful, and eventually becomes a queen somewhere - even
in the Maldives - if she wasn't an Abyssinian princess to start with. Eat
your heart out, Princess Caraboo.... »

Sorry to contradict your scepticism but there were two portuguese
queens of Maldives between 1570-80? e 1655.
Not captives, beautiful I do not know, but queens.
A deposed king Hassan IX, Sultan of Aceh, asked for protection of the
portuguese in Cochim in 1552, later converted himsef to christianism -
baptised by St. Francis Xavier - and married a portuguese of very high
rank Dona Leonor de Ataíde. His son and heir also married a
portuguese, Francisca de Vasconcelos and if, in spite of several
attempts, they never recovered the throne they were treated as kings
even in by king John IV who received them in Portugal in 1641.


I think the reference should be to the Maldives exclusively - Aceh was
a seperate Sultanate on Sumatra.

Christopher Buyers' Royal Ark site provides some particulars:

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Maldives/maldive2.htm

MA-R

Gjest

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 apr 2007 11:01:54

On Apr 11, 3:19 am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"taf" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote in message

news:1176252203.023637.260720@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...





On Apr 10, 4:52 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

I don't remember the details, or even if exact information is on the
record - I vaguely think she was supposed to be a daughter or
granddaughter
of Babur, and if so a sister or niece of Humayun and an aunt or cousin of
Akbar. I imagine a Google search for Bourbon + Bhopal or similar will
yield
something firmer than my recollection.

http://bhopale.blogspot.com/2006/12/fre ... ction.html

says sister-in-law of Akbar, the wife being a Portuguese captive. Also
see:

http://bhopale.blogspot.com/2006/12/bou ... hopal.html

This story is about the following generation, referring to the marriage of
Jean-Philippe himself rather than to his own birth from an affair between a
Bourbon prince, Charles, count of Montpensier, and a purported blood
relative of the Mughal khan. Strange that in such narratives every nubile
female captive is beautiful, and eventually becomes a queen somewhere - even
in the Maldives - if she wasn't an Abyssinian princess to start with. Eat
your heart out, Princess Caraboo....

Jean-Philippe was not regarded by anyone in France as a legitimate son of
Charles, so that the "recognition" of Balthasar in Bhopal as anything other
than the descendant of a by-blow of the Bourbon lineage is wishful thinking.

And it seems the Bhopal chap is not in any case the senior heir of the
Indian Bourbons - that distinction probably belongs to a resident of
Australia:

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0832798327


Finally, Chris Pitt Lewis provided the following on rec.heraldry last
month, including a conclusion that the "ascendance of the Indian
Bourbons is definitively relegated to the realm of myth":

"Van Kerrebrouck discusses the Bhopal Bourbons in a lengthy footnote,
on
pages 87 and 88 of the 2nd (2004) edition of his Bourbon volume. This
is
a note appended to his account of Charles II de Bourbon, Constable of
France (1490-1527), since the usual account is that the Indian family
derives from a natural son of his called Jean or Jean-Philippe de
Bourbon. According to Van Kerrebrouck, the story of Jean de Bourbon's
"adventurous life" first appears in a series of articles published by
a
French traveller Louis Rousselet in a journal called Le Tour du monde
in
1873, and later (1875) in book form as "L'Inde des Rajahs, voyage
dans
l'Inde centrale et dans les présidences de Bombay et du Bengale". In
this work Rousselet merely speculated whether Jean was a member of
the
Bourbon family, perhaps "an illegitimate son of the famous Constable,
who lived around this time", or whether he was an imposter. [The 1872
article quoted above by François Velde is by the same author, and
says
that he heard the story in Bhopal in 1867. There, he simply says that
Jean claimed to be a member of the Bourbon family.] Later however
(1882)
Rousselet published a novel called "Le fils du connétable". Histories
of
the family were subsequently published in the 1880s and 1890s both in
English and French.

Van Kerrebrouck quotes later studies to the effect that no primary
sources have been found for any member of the family prior to 1739,
and
that the family tree is certain only from Francis (or Faradi) Bourbon
of
Sheergarh in Gwalior State, d 1778. He concludes that the total
absence
of sources relative to Jean de Bourbon and his immediate descendants
"relègue définitivement l'ascendance des Bourbon indiens au rang de
mythe".
--
Chris Pitt Lewis "

MA-R

Ruth Nielsen

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 368

Legg inn av Ruth Nielsen » 11 apr 2007 14:31:03

I'm new to the list.

Could you post the link for the updates on Baldwin IV of Flanders?

Thanks!

R.A. in CA

John Brandon

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 apr 2007 15:47:29

Michael --

You can't get off that easy. I'm still waiting for your answer about
the reason for the stupendous number of postings (502) you made in
November 2006. In case people want to check them out, see here:

http://groups.google.com/groups/search? ... _maxy=2005

Was there a little something bugging you that month? What exactly
does the substance of the postings tell us about you? It certainly
seems you are obsessed with titles, doubtless love the J.P. behind
your name and presumably had wanted to see M.P. there. So you are a
Conservative, a law-and-order type, and a profound "respecter of
persons" (preferably of the titled and entitled variety).

Perhaps you'd do better in your political career in Australia or even
over here in the U.S. (you'd fit in well with some border-line-Nazi
GOP types I have the displeasure of knowing).


And it seems the Bhopal chap is not in any case the senior heir of the
Indian Bourbons - that distinction probably belongs to a resident of
Australia:

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GE ... 0832798327

Finally, Chris Pitt Lewis provided the following on rec.heraldry last
month, including a conclusion that the "ascendance of the Indian
Bourbons is definitively relegated to the realm of myth":

"Van Kerrebrouck discusses the Bhopal Bourbons in a lengthy footnote,
on
pages 87 and 88 of the 2nd (2004) edition of his Bourbon volume. This
is
a note appended to his account of Charles II de Bourbon, Constable of
France (1490-1527), since the usual account is that the Indian family
derives from a natural son of his called Jean or Jean-Philippe de
Bourbon. According to Van Kerrebrouck, the story of Jean de Bourbon's
"adventurous life" first appears in a series of articles published by
a
French traveller Louis Rousselet in a journal called Le Tour du monde
in
1873, and later (1875) in book form as "L'Inde des Rajahs, voyage
dans
l'Inde centrale et dans les présidences de Bombay et du Bengale". In
this work Rousselet merely speculated whether Jean was a member of
the
Bourbon family, perhaps "an illegitimate son of the famous Constable,
who lived around this time", or whether he was an imposter. [The 1872
article quoted above by François Velde is by the same author, and
says
that he heard the story in Bhopal in 1867. There, he simply says that
Jean claimed to be a member of the Bourbon family.] Later however
(1882)
Rousselet published a novel called "Le fils du connétable". Histories
of
the family were subsequently published in the 1880s and 1890s both in
English and French.

Van Kerrebrouck quotes later studies to the effect that no primary
sources have been found for any member of the family prior to 1739,
and
that the family tree is certain only from Francis (or Faradi) Bourbon
of
Sheergarh in Gwalior State, d 1778. He concludes that the total
absence
of sources relative to Jean de Bourbon and his immediate descendants
"relègue définitivement l'ascendance des Bourbon indiens au rang de
mythe".
--
Chris Pitt Lewis "

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 apr 2007 16:56:43

http://groups.google.com/groups/search? ... _maxy=2005

Hmm, this only lets me see about 90 of the grand total of 502 (bet
Micheal's ears pricked up at the word "grand"!). Why is that? Were
all the others manually deleted?

taf

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 368

Legg inn av taf » 11 apr 2007 19:36:24

On Apr 11, 6:31 am, "Ruth Nielsen" <ruthali...@verizon.net> wrote:
I'm new to the list.

Could you post the link for the updates on Baldwin IV of Flanders?


Just Google "Henry Project" and the index page is the first thing that
comes up.

taf

John Brandon

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 11 apr 2007 21:42:15

Oh. Nice. <smiles, starts to drift off ...>

Ian Cairns

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 368

Legg inn av Ian Cairns » 11 apr 2007 23:39:30

"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1176316584.559933.162530@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 11, 6:31 am, "Ruth Nielsen" <ruthali...@verizon.net> wrote:
I'm new to the list.

Could you post the link for the updates on Baldwin IV of Flanders?


Just Google "Henry Project" and the index page is the first thing that
comes up.

Is one of the updates:

Henry II: "d. 11 June 1183, king of England, 1154-1183."

I always thought he died 6 Jul 1189, as per Leo's site?

Rgrds
Ian

Gjest

Re: Blanche de Audley, wife of Sir Fulk Fitz Warin

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 apr 2007 23:45:04

Here are two documents, kindly sent to me by Rosie Bevan, each of which
sounds convincing on its own, but which give different accounts of the name of
the daughter of Sir James Audley of Helegh, Staffs, who was the wife of Sir
Fulk Fitzwarren, named as dead in CPR R II, vol 1, 218- entry for 24th May
1378, with an infant heir.
Rosie's comment is to the effect that you can't always believe the
allegations made in Plea Rolls!

A. ( from the de Banco Rolls for Hilary term 11 R II), naming her as
"Blanch". This must be the lawsuit identified by Douglas Richardson in his
instructive post of 6th April last.
..
Devon
Hugh de Courtenay and Elizabeth his wife sued Fulk Fitzwarren, knight, for a
third of the manor of Kyngeston, as dower of Elizabeth, of the dotation of
Thomas de Audley, knight, her former husband.
Fulk pleaded that Elizabeth was not entitled to dower from the manor, and
stated that in 33 E III a fine was levied by which the reversion of the manor,
which was then held by Margaret, formerly wife of William Martyn, was settled
on James de Audley, of Helegh, and Isabella his wife for their lives, with
remainder to Oliver, the son of James and Isabella, and to his male issue, and
failing such, with remainder to Thomas de Audley and to his male issue, and
failing such, with remainder to Roland, brother of Thomas, and to his male
issue, and failing such, to revert to the heirs of the bodies of James and
Isabella. And James and Isabella had entered after the death of Margaret, and
Isabella died, and Oliver died leaving no male issue, and after the death of
Oliver James de Audley demised the manor to Thomas for his life, Thomas then
being of full age, with a proviso that if Thomas died during the life time of
James, he could re-enter into the manor, and Roland afterwards died, leaving no
male issue, and Thomas died leaving no issue.
James then re-entered into the manor and died seised of it, and after the
death of James
[in 1386, according to the Oxford DNB] Sir Fulk Fitzwarren had entered as
kinsman and nearest heir of James and Isabella, viz, as son of Blanch, the
daughter of James and Isabella.

This Fulk can only have been the one who was an infant in 1378- see CPR R
II, vol 1, 218, and who married Elizabeth Cogan, dying before February 1393,
when Hugh Courtenay was pardoned for marrying her.

B. An inquisition (CIM vol 5, no.335), taken in 1392, which identifies the
daughter of Sir James Audley, married to Fulk Fitz Waryn, as Margaret
The inquisition records the descent of the manor of Tavistock, Devon, from
Sir William Martyn- first to his son William, whose widow Margaret had the
manor as dower, then to the younger William's sister and coheiress, wife of
Philip de Columbariis, to whom it was allotted on partition, then under a fine of
Hilary term 8 E III to Philip and Eleanor for their lives, with remainder to
Ralph Bassett of Drayton and his wife Alice in fee tail, and an ultimate
remainder to the right heirs of Eleanor. (Alice was a daughter of Eleanor's
sister Joan [note 1 below], the wife of Sir Nicholas de Audley, so Alice was a
sister of Sir Nicholas' son Sir James Audley, as the inquisition finds). Ralph
and Alice entered and had an only child, also Ralph, who entered after his
parents' deaths..
The inquisition then records the effect of a fine levied at Westminster in
Hilary term 44 E III between Thomas de Audley as plaintiff and his father Sir
James as deforciant, whereby Sir James, as sole heir of his aunt Eleanor de
Columbariis, settled the reversion of the manor, which was still held for life
by Ralph Bassett the son, on his son Thomas the plaintiff in fee tail, with
remainders to Thomas's brothers Roland and James, also in fee tail, and an
ultimate remainder to Thomas' right heirs.
The inquisition then finds that Thomas, Roland and James, and also Ralph
Bassett, were all dead without heirs of their bodies, and that after Ralph's
death [on 10th May 1390, according to Stirnet] the manor descended to the infant
Fulk Fitz Waryn, aged two years and more, kinsman and next heir of Thomas,
namely son of Fulk, son of his [Thomas' sister Margaret. [see note 2 below]

Notes
1. This Joan, nee Martin, was according to the Oxford DNB article on the
Audley family, first married to Henry de Lacy, whereby she was Countess of
Lincoln
2. According to Stirnet, his father Fulk had died on 8th August 1391


For ease of reference I append the footnotes from VCH Staffs, sv Tunstall,
which I included in my latest post on this topic.


<128 Complete Peerage, 'Audley'; CIPM ii, 68,121,287; iii, 408;
< v, 29;vi, 42; Cal. Fine R. 1391–9, 10.
<129 Cal. Close R. 1389–92, 468.
<130 Ibid.
<131 Complete Peerage, 'Audley'; C 137/73; CCR. 1409–13, 254;
< S.H.C. xi. 209.
<132 CP 'Audley'; U.C.N.S., Sneyd MSS., Ct. R. 7/3, 7/5–7/9;
< Tunstall Ct. R. (T.N.S.F.C. lx, lxi), passim;
< L. & P. Hen. VIII, i, p. 96; iv, p. 3183; v, p. 150.
<.....
<139 Cal. Close R. 1389–92, 468. He was 2 years old in 1391,
< and in 1393 his mother Eliz. m. Sir Hugh Courtenay as her
< 2nd husband (Complete Peerage, 'FitzWarin'); Sir Hugh tried
< to secure the wardship of the heir after Eliz's death in 1411:
< C 137/85; CFR. 1405–13, 214; C.C.R. 1409–13, 399–400.
< This explains why this part of the manor was variously
< described as the king's and Courtenay's in 1405 and 'recently
< Courtenay's' in 1416
< (U.C.N.S Sneyd, Ct. R. 7/3) : ibid.
<140 Complete Peerage, 'Bath', 'FitzWarin'; C.C.R 1392–6, 73;
< C.F.R. 1405–13, 214; C/138/52; C 139/51; C 139/65;
< C 142/129/31; S.H.C. n.s. iv. 11; U.C.N.S., Sneyd MSS.,
<Ct. R. 7/3, 7/5–7/9; Tunstall Ct. R. (T.N.S.F.C. lxi), passim;
< ibid. lxii. 65; lxiii. 53.

Leo van de Pas

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 368

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 12 apr 2007 02:35:24

On my website two sources are mentioned, I have just added a third (not
visible as yet) ES II 83 which also gives 6 July 1189.
Leo
----- Orignal Message -----
From: "Ian Cairns" <news@cairnsfamily.org>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 368


"taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:1176316584.559933.162530@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 11, 6:31 am, "Ruth Nielsen" <ruthali...@verizon.net> wrote:
I'm new to the list.

Could you post the link for the updates on Baldwin IV of Flanders?


Just Google "Henry Project" and the index page is the first thing that
comes up.

Is one of the updates:

Henry II: "d. 11 June 1183, king of England, 1154-1183."

I always thought he died 6 Jul 1189, as per Leo's site?

Rgrds
Ian



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Henry Project update

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 12 apr 2007 02:39:42

In article <evjo2v$6i4$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>,
"Ian Cairns" <news@cairnsfamily.org> wrote:

Is one of the updates:

Henry II: "d. 11 June 1183, king of England, 1154-1183."

I always thought he died 6 Jul 1189, as per Leo's site?

1183 is the death date of the Young King Henry, who was officially
co-king from 1170 until his death. The Henry Project has the regnal and
death dates correct on the Henry II page --

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... nry002.htm

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

wjhonson

Re: Blanche de Audley, wife of Sir Fulk Fitz Warin

Legg inn av wjhonson » 12 apr 2007 02:59:14

This doesn't clarify the situation but rather confuses it. There are
quotes mixed in with observations and these are not clearly
delineated.

For example Elizabeth did not die in 1411, Elizabeth Cogan was dead on
29 Oct 1397. If Hugh did "try to secure the heir" in 1411, that heir
was not Fulk FitzWarin who himself was already dead, but perhaps Fulk
FitzWarin the *grandson* of Elizabeth. This grandson was born 20 Jan
1406.

I don't believe it's obvious that Alice d'Audley was the sister of
James, that part of your above, is parenthetical which makes it
suspect. Rather her father Nicholas could very well be that Nicholas
who himself was the *brother* of James, thus Alice would be James'
niece.

That Nicholas, the brother of James, married Joan Martin the sister of
Eleanor Martin and together daughters of William the 1st Baron Martin
who was dead by 8 Oct 1324.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: Henry Project update

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 12 apr 2007 11:23:38

"Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nathanieltaylor-9DE1D8.21394211042007@news.west.earthlink.net...
In article <evjo2v$6i4$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>,
"Ian Cairns" <news@cairnsfamily.org> wrote:

Is one of the updates:

Henry II: "d. 11 June 1183, king of England, 1154-1183."

I always thought he died 6 Jul 1189, as per Leo's site?

1183 is the death date of the Young King Henry, who was officially
co-king from 1170 until his death. The Henry Project has the regnal and
death dates correct on the Henry II page --

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproj ... nry002.htm

There is a mistake in citations to the 'Benedict of Peterborough' chronicle
for the date & place of Henry's death - the page reference should be 71, not
471.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Blanche de Audley, wife of Sir Fulk Fitz Warin

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 apr 2007 12:21:03

Will Johnson writes:-

<I don't believe it's obvious that Alice d'Audley was the sister of
<James, that part of your above, is parenthetical which makes it
<suspect. Rather her father Nicholas could very well be that Nicholas
<who himself was the *brother* of James, thus Alice would be James'
<niece.
This is I think a comment on my summary of the effect of the inquisition
recorded at CIM vol 5, no. 335. The inquisition is quite long, so I will not
transcribe it here in full: but If Will, or anybody else, would like to see the
..jpg file which Rosie Bevan sent me, I will gladly forward it as an
attachment, so that people can check the accuracy of my summary.
However here are two direct quotes which I think are enough to refute Will's
suggestion:-
"Nicholas and Joan had issue James and the said Alice, and the said Ralph
and Alice had issue Ralph and none other."
"After Ralph's death the manor descended to Fulk Fitz Waryn, aged two years
and more, kinsman and next heir of Thomas, namely the son of Fulk son of his
sister Margaret"

The Thomas just mentioned was son of Sir James Audley of Helegh, as shown in
the following record recently posted by Douglas Richardson:-
PRO Document, E 210/986
<Grant by Sir Thomas Fichet, knight, lord of Spaxston, to Richard Lyf,
<lord of Corypol [Currypool (in Charlinch)], at the request of Sir
<Thomas de Audelegh, knight, son of Sir James de Audelegh, lord of Red
<Castle and Helegh, of his watercourse of Fordemulle, for Richard's
<mill of Cherdelynchemulle, until Fulk Corbet of London shall next
<return to Stoweye, before Midsummer next. [Somerset]. Dated: Saturday
<the feast of St. George the martyr [23 April 1379] 2 Richard II.

The Ralph, son of Ralph and Alice, mentioned in CIM 5, no.336, is the last
Ralph Basset of Drayton, who dsp 11th May 1390, as appears from his IPM quoted
by MichaelAnne on this list on 10th May 2004. Alice's place in the Audley
pedigree was established by Douglas Richardson in posts of similar dates

Will continued:-
<That Nicholas, the brother of James, married Joan Martin the sister of
<Eleanor Martin and together daughters of William the 1st Baron Martin
<who was dead by 8 Oct 1324.

I believe Will here confuses Nicholas, 2nd Lord Audley, (1289-1316), who
did marry Joan Martin, and who had issue James, 3rd Lord Audley, (1312-1386),
with his grandson Nicholas, 4th Lord Audley, (1329–1391), who died without male
heir from his marriage to Elizabeth Beaumont. Please refer to the Oxford DNB
article on the Audley family for these details, which are completely
consistent with, though by no means as full as, the facts emerging from CIM vol 5,
no.336.

MM

Thanks for your comments, Will. I hope I have dealt adequately with your
points
MM

Janet

Theophilus Jones

Legg inn av Janet » 12 apr 2007 14:01:02

Theophilus Jones 'The History of Brecknockshire' published in 1809

What do all think about this book?

Habet

John Brandon

Re: Theophilus Jones

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 apr 2007 15:21:31

Habet

Janet, I think your right hand hit the keyboard wrong.

John Brandon

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 apr 2007 15:39:47

It seems MA-R has killfiled me (something I actually wanted all
along), but I have to say it is "a punkish way to go out," bothering
someone and taunting him as a troll for weeks, then killfiling him
when he points out your *own* trollish tendencies.

Of course, maybe it was my stating that my grandfather was a
sharecropper that bounced me from the radar of the social-climbing
titles-whore MA-R ... :-)

Michael --

You can't get off that easy. I'm still waiting for your answer about
the reason for the stupendous number of postings (502) you made in
November 2006. In case people want to check them out, see here:

http://groups.google.com/groups/search? ... en&enc_a...

Was there a little something bugging you that month? What exactly
does the substance of the postings tell us about you? It certainly
seems you are obsessed with titles, doubtless love the J.P. behind
your name and presumably had wanted to see M.P. there. So you are a
Conservative, a law-and-order type, and a profound "respecter of
persons" (preferably of the titled and entitled variety).

Perhaps you'd do better in your political career in Australia or even
over here in the U.S. (you'd fit in well with some border-line-Nazi
GOP types I have the displeasure of knowing).

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Theophilus Jones

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 12 apr 2007 15:44:14

In article <mailman.784.1176378935.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote:

Theophilus Jones 'The History of Brecknockshire' published in 1809



What do all think about this book?



Habet

.... et bene pendentes.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Henry Project update

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 12 apr 2007 16:48:47

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:23:38 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:

There is a mistake in citations to the 'Benedict of Peterborough' chronicle
for the date & place of Henry's death - the page reference should be 71, not
471.

Thank you. This typo has now been corrected.

Stewart Baldwin

John Brandon

Re: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 apr 2007 16:49:06

Of course, maybe it was my stating that my grandfather was a
sharecropper that bounced me from the radar of the social-climbing
titles-whore MA-R ... :-)

I was selling Mr. Albert a bit short. He was also a talented
carpenter, as well as a policeman (from time to time), and the father
of eight good-looking children (speaking of "habet et ...," Nat).

Brad Verity

Re: Descents From Edward III For Sir Marmaduke Beckwith, 3rd

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 12 apr 2007 17:03:54

On Apr 9, 10:18 pm, "John Watson" <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Agnes Scrope, dau of Henry Scrope (1418-1459) living August 1498, m1
Sir Christopher Boynton of Sadbury,co. York, Knt. m2. ante 1498 Sir
Richard Radclyffe, of Sadbury, K.G. and Banneret; Slain at Bosworth
22 August 1485.
[The Controversy Between Sir Richard Scrope and Sir Robert Grosvenor,
Vol II, N. Harris Nicolas, 1832, p 60]

Dear John, James and Will,

Agnes Scrope, born 1445/50, was the fifth child and third daughter of
Henry, 4th Lord Scrope of Bolton, and his wife Elizabeth Scrope of
Masham. The death date of 7 July 1485 for her first husband
Christopher Boynton of Sedbury (not a knight) is incorrect - he died
in 1479. Agnes married 2ndly (shortly afterwards), Sir Richard
Ratcliffe, one of Richard III's closest advisors, who was killed at
Bosworth. Agnes was dead by July 1509, when her eldest child Henry
Boynton of Sedbury, received a pardon as her executor. By her first
husband, Agnes had two sons, Henry and John Boynton, and by her second
husband she had a son and a daughter, Richard and Isabel Ratcliffe
(see the bio of Sir Richard Ratcliffe by Rosemary Horrox in the new
Oxford DNB).

Cheers, ---------Brad

wjhonson

Re: Blanche de Audley, wife of Sir Fulk Fitz Warin

Legg inn av wjhonson » 12 apr 2007 18:53:14

I'm going to be examining this later today, but I just wanted to note
that this destroys the English royal link for Hugh Shirley of Lower
Ettington who d 1403 at Shrewsbury.

Although Stirnet on Shirley states "sister of Ralph Basset", they
contradict or clarify if you wish under Basset that she, Isabel, was
possibly illegitimate.

Hugh Shirley, AFAIK still retains however his Royal Scottish link in
10 steps to Alexander, two different ways.

Gjest

Re: Arundel and de Vere tombs, Chichester cathedral

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 apr 2007 23:59:34

On 12 Apr., 22:54, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 12/04/2007 21:05:41 GMT Standard Time,

m...@btinternet.com writes:

(3) the tomb of Richard, Earl of Arundel (d 1376) and his wife,
holding hands [his nose appears to have been replaced!]



More than just his nose, both of the effigies were completely, but rather
badly, reconstructed, I doubt there was any suggestion of "hand holding" in the
original. There was a poem written about this tomb, if I remember correctly
by Philip Larkin. There should be a thread on this subject in the archives
under the heading of "An Arundel Tomb?" in March 2001

regards,
Adrian

Thanks Adrian - I have located and read this - very interesting.

It may be found here:

http://groups.google.de/group/soc.genea ... d06211d12e

Cheers, Michael

Gjest

Re: Arundel and de Vere tombs, Chichester cathedral

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2007 00:01:02

In a message dated 12/04/2007 21:05:41 GMT Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:


(3) the tomb of Richard, Earl of Arundel (d 1376) and his wife,

holding hands [his nose appears to have been replaced!]




More than just his nose, both of the effigies were completely, but rather
badly, reconstructed, I doubt there was any suggestion of "hand holding" in the
original. There was a poem written about this tomb, if I remember correctly
by Philip Larkin. There should be a thread on this subject in the archives
under the heading of "An Arundel Tomb?" in March 2001

regards,
Adrian

wjhonson

Re: Who was Margaret Boynton (nee Conyers) ?

Legg inn av wjhonson » 13 apr 2007 04:56:29

Something is still amiss in these generations.

Examining some of the statements made here
http://www.boyntons.us/yorkshire/dames/veil.html

We see that Margaret del See, heiress of Barmston "took the veil" in
1495 and in 1512 she joined the Guild of Corpus Christi. Her husband
Henry Boynton must have been dead by or in 1495.

We see here the statement that although Margaret had a son Thomas, he
"died before he was old enough to inherit" but had a son Matthew.

I can't reconcile these statements. Her son Thomas had to be born by
1495 when she took the veil and yet we have a statement on this line,
here by Brad Verity quoting "Cecily's will was dated 16 June 1550, and
pr. at York 20 Feb. 1551. It is also printed in Test. Ebor. VI.
Thomas Boynton of Barmston died 29 March 1523, and was buried in
Rousby chapel. He was son and heir of Sir Henry Boynton and Margaret
del See, heiress of Barmston. [Betham's Baronetage of England Vol. 1,
Appendix, pp. 8-9.]"

IF the man buried at Barmston 29 Mar 1523 is this Thomas then he was
certainly "of age".

So what's the dealio?

Will Johnson

Brad Verity

Re: Who was Margaret Boynton (nee Conyers) ?

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 13 apr 2007 07:21:52

On Apr 12, 8:56 pm, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

Something is still amiss in these generations.

Examining some of the statements made herehttp://www.boyntons.us/yorkshire/dames/veil.html

We see that Margaret del See, heiress of Barmston "took the veil" in
1495 and in 1512 she joined the Guild of Corpus Christi. Her husband
Henry Boynton must have been dead by or in 1495.

We see here the statement that although Margaret had a son Thomas, he
"died before he was old enough to inherit" but had a son Matthew.

I like that website very much, but the statement that Thomas Boynton
died before he was old enough to inherit is incorrect. He did die
before his mother, so he couldn't inherit her properties, including
Barmston (she apparently kept them despite taking the veil), but that
had nothing to do with his age - just her good health.

Matthew Boynton, son and heir of Thomas Boynton, was 19 years old at
his father's IPM, per a footnote to Matthew's 1540 will, printed in
Testamenta Eboracensia Vol. 6 (1902), p. 99.

I can't reconcile these statements. Her son Thomas had to be born by
1495 when she took the veil and yet we have a statement on this line,
here by Brad Verity quoting "Cecily's will was dated 16 June 1550, and
pr. at York 20 Feb. 1551. It is also printed in Test. Ebor. VI.
Thomas Boynton of Barmston died 29 March 1523, and was buried in
Rousby chapel.

Thomas Boynton of Barmston's 1523 will was printed in Testamenta
Eboracensia Vol. 5, but I don't yet have a copy of it.

He was son and heir of Sir Henry Boynton and Margaret
del See, heiress of Barmston. [Betham's Baronetage of England Vol. 1,
Appendix, pp. 8-9.]"

Per Betham (who always has to be taken with a grain of salt), Margaret
del See's will was dated 2 Sept. 1533, and proved 21 Nov. 1536. I
don't know if it's been published.

IF the man buried at Barmston 29 Mar 1523 is this Thomas then he was
certainly "of age".

Yes.

So what's the dealio?

The BoyntonwWebsite was a little confused - see above.

Cheers, --------Brad

Gjest

Re: Descent From Edward III For Thomas Bradley of New Kent C

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2007 08:21:02

In a message dated 4/12/2007 11:10:56 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

Now my home is full of boxes and bags with hundreds of books and
articles on medieval England c.1400-1500 (including 'Complete
Peerage'!) for me to sort through and get organized.


Congratulations and condolences.
Will Johnson



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

John and Rosie

Re: Ogilface, Scotland

Legg inn av John and Rosie » 13 apr 2007 10:50:27

The geophysics survey of the ‘official site’ of Ogilface Castle is due to be
done on the 21st April 2007.

We have posted aerial photographs on HYPERLINK
"http://www.armadale.org.uk/archaeology.htm"www.armadale.org.uk/archaeology.
htm



We had not realised that the De Boscos interests were so widespread but we
were aware of this Haswell Enfeoffment with warranty: HYPERLINK
"http://www.dur.ac.uk/r.h.britnell/haswell/Haswell_Ch._28.htm"http://www.dur
..ac.uk/r.h.britnell/haswell/Haswell_Ch._28.htm



As Wells researchers HYPERLINK "http://www.wells.uk.info/"www.wells.uk.info
we are also interested in Alexander Welles, Master of Torphichen, who fought
with the Lincolnshire Welles at the battle of Falkirk.












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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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19:58

Gjest

Re: Re: Ogilface, Scotland

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 apr 2007 17:49:31

John and Rosie,

Thank you for this.
William de Bosco witnessed the confirmation of William, king of Scots to Ivo Vipont “those lands which William his father held.”
“Charters of William II de Vieuxpont relating to Scotland were witnessed by William ‘de Butemund [Kelso Liber] and by Roger and William ‘de la Lecqueraye.’ Bouttemount, in the commune of Ouilly-le vicomte, is in the district of Auge in middle Normandy, some 25 km north-east of Vieuxpont-en-Auge, whence the Vieuxpont family is believed to have come to Britain. [Another family connected is] Bosco. Walter del Bois or de Bosco, whose son and heir was called Richard, held at the close of the twelfth century the now deserted village of Carruthers, in a heavily populated corner of Annandale...The charters by which Walter gave land at Carruthers to Durham Cathedral Priory were witnessed by two men apparently from Yorkshire, Ralph of Wassand in the East Riding and Robert ‘of Lithum,’ probably Kirkleatham in the North Riding.” The Anglo Norman Era in Scottish History: The Colonists: (I) The great lords and their Families. G.W.S. Barrow: Oxford: 1980.

Wonder if Ogilface came to the de Boscos through a Vipont marriage?

Also, Alex has asked for more information on Ogilface and I cannot seem to email him directly. The following are my notes in my database. I may have a copy of the charter in my files, which are still in boxes and as soon as I have access to determine that, will post it.
Between 1147 and 1150 William de Vipont held Ogilface. (Early Scottish Charters Prior to 1153.1905)
"A mid-twelfth-century charter of the earliest William de Vieuxpont to appear in Scottish record.anent Ogilface in Torphicen, was witnessed by, i. a., Reginald "of Ponthieu" (de Puntiu), Ponthieu being not far to the east of Eu, along with Richard de Vieuxponti, Roger Quirem, Roger 'of Carriden, and Godwin of 'Carriden..." (The Anglo-Norman Era in Scottish History, The Ford Lectures Delivered in the University of Oxford in Hilary Term 1977. G. W. S. Barrow 1980.” I believe this may be the same Richard Vipont holding 1 3/4 fees of Reginald de Vale Torta in Brodewood, Devon according to the Testa de Nevill.
In 1203, there is a confirmation of the gift of lands in Ogilface to by William Vipont. (Register of the Great Seal of Scotland.)

Pat
From: "John and Rosie" <rosieandjohn@wellsuk.info
Date: 2007/04/13 Fri AM 05:50:27 EDT
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ogilface, Scotland

The geophysics survey of the ?official site? of Ogilface Castle is due to be
done on the 21st April 2007.
We have posted aerial photographs on HYPERLINK
"http://www.armadale.org.uk/archaeology.htm"www.armadale.org.uk/archaeology.
htm

We had not realised that the De Boscos interests were so widespread but we
were aware of this Haswell Enfeoffment with warranty: HYPERLINK
"http://www.dur.ac.uk/r.h.britnell/haswell/Haswell_Ch._28.htm"http://www.dur
.ac.uk/r.h.britnell/haswell/Haswell_Ch._28.htm

As Wells researchers HYPERLINK "http://www.wells.uk.info/"www.wells.uk.info
we are also interested in Alexander Welles, Master of Torphichen, who fought
with the Lincolnshire Welles at the battle of Falkirk.






--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 12/04/2007
19:58


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken Ozanne

Re: Wife of Gilbert de Gaunt

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 13 apr 2007 18:37:13

Peter, Louise,
CP Vol V p 628 says the wife of Gilbert de Gaunt was named
Lora.

Best,
Ken

On 14/4/07 2:49, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
<gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:30:43 GMT
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: gilbert de gaunt 1180-1242


"Louise" <louiseg82@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.814.1176421513.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I am wondering if anyone can clarify the wife of this man.
Several sources give him 2 wives, Hawise de Romare and Rohese / Rohaise
de
Clare. Most say his 2nd wife was Hawise.
However other sources only mention Hawise.
I'd be very happy if I can clarify this information

You have the dates wrong:

Gilbert de Gant who married Rohese de Clare was born ca 1120 and died in
1156. He was created earl of Lincoln by King Stephen ca 1147.

Another Gilbert de Gant, nephew of the man above, died in shortly before 22
January 1242. He used the title "earl of Lincoln" but this was not
officially recognised.

I don't know if a wife is recorded, CP does not give any name. Assuming he
had one, I would be surprised if she was really called "de Roumare" - this
was an earlier family of earls of Lincoln.

Peter Stewart

CE Wood

Re: Wife of Gilbert de Gaunt

Legg inn av CE Wood » 13 apr 2007 18:41:37

True, except THAT Gilbert is grandson of Gilbert who died 1242.

CE Wood


On Apr 13, 10:37 am, Ken Ozanne <kenoza...@bordernet.com.au> wrote:
Peter, Louise,
CP Vol V p 628 says the wife of Gilbert de Gaunt was named
Lora.

Best,
Ken

On 14/4/07 2:49, "gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com"

gen-medieval-requ...@rootsweb.com> wrote:
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:30:43 GMT
To: gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: gilbert de gaunt 1180-1242

"Louise" <louise...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.814.1176421513.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I am wondering if anyone can clarify the wife of this man.
Several sources give him 2 wives, Hawise de Romare and Rohese / Rohaise
de
Clare. Most say his 2nd wife was Hawise.
However other sources only mention Hawise.
I'd be very happy if I can clarify this information

You have the dates wrong:

Gilbert de Gant who married Rohese de Clare was born ca 1120 and died in
1156. He was created earl of Lincoln by King Stephen ca 1147.

Another Gilbert de Gant, nephew of the man above, died in shortly before 22
January 1242. He used the title "earl of Lincoln" but this was not
officially recognised.

I don't know if a wife is recorded, CP does not give any name. Assuming he
had one, I would be surprised if she was really called "de Roumare" - this
was an earlier family of earls of Lincoln.

Peter Stewart

Ken Ozanne

Re: Australian Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Ken Ozanne » 13 apr 2007 19:01:51

MA-R,
I mentioned in a post last year that of my 12 ancestors who came to
Australia, all were here by 1868 and I can trace 5 of them to before 1500,
probably all on multiple lines.

If that experience is anything to go on then an Australian book on
gateway ancestors would need to be impossibly large. Also, the number of
descendants (and so potential customers) would average much fewer than in
the US or Canada.

Best,
Ken

On 14/4/07 2:49, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
<gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: mjcar@btinternet.com
Date: 13 Apr 2007 05:38:22 -0700
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval ancestry

I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R

Louise Staley

Re: Australian Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 14 apr 2007 00:25:02

One of my maternal 2nd-gt-grandfathers, Thomas Beaumont Waters,
emigrated to Australia in 1853 (and married the daughter of a convict).
Thomas Waters is a descendant of the Dixie's of Leicestershire and
through them has multiple lines to Edward III and one through Henry IV.

One of my pateranl 2nd-gt-grandfathers, Oliver Rouse Upjohn, emigrated
in 1854. He has multiple medieval lines through the Yeos, Chichesters,
Courtenays and other West Country families.

I would expect further traceable medieval lines from at least one more
and probably 2 of my Australian gateway ancestors if I could just place
them properly in England, a so far fruitless endeavour. (OFF TOPIC PLEA:
if anyone knows anything about a George Dismore who married an Anne
Eldridge please contact me off list)

I agree with Ken, he has 5 GARDS, I have 2, perhaps 4, because the time
period of emigration is so recent (1788-1868) the number will be huge
yet the number of descendants is correspondingly fewer.

Louise

Ken Ozanne wrote:
MA-R,
I mentioned in a post last year that of my 12 ancestors who came to
Australia, all were here by 1868 and I can trace 5 of them to before 1500,
probably all on multiple lines.

If that experience is anything to go on then an Australian book on
gateway ancestors would need to be impossibly large. Also, the number of
descendants (and so potential customers) would average much fewer than in
the US or Canada.

Best,
Ken

On 14/4/07 2:49, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: mjcar@btinternet.com
Date: 13 Apr 2007 05:38:22 -0700
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval ancestry

I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R


Peter Stewart

Re: Australian Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 apr 2007 01:16:38

"Ken Ozanne" <kenozanne@bordernet.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.845.1176487293.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
MA-R,
I mentioned in a post last year that of my 12 ancestors who came to
Australia, all were here by 1868 and I can trace 5 of them to before 1500,
probably all on multiple lines.

If that experience is anything to go on then an Australian book on
gateway ancestors would need to be impossibly large. Also, the number of
descendants (and so potential customers) would average much fewer than in
the US or Canada.

Quite so - a major difference is obvious: candidate immigrants to Australia
came from Britain in the late 18th & early 19th centuries, whereas many of
those going to the US and Canada lived a full century before this.
Consequently individual in the Australian group have fewer descendants to be
interested in such a book, and many more ancestral lines that are likely to
be traceable that would make it less practicable anyway. Lucky for us.

Peter Stewart

JohnH

Re: Australian Gateway Ancestors

Legg inn av JohnH » 14 apr 2007 02:40:49

I have:
(1) Grevel/Greville (Earls of Warwick) ancestors of wife traced back to
Chipping Campden 1254. Arrived Aust. 1841
(2) Lamsede/Lambshead/Lamshed ancestors of wife back to Ilsington Devon
1560's (Colesway survey of 1566). arrived Aust. 1862
(3) Bataille/Battelle/Battely/Battley ancestor of mine from Chipping Ongar
Essex land grant 1130.
Also from Greystones Ireland early 1`800's and Bury St Edmunds Suffolk
early 1600's. Arrived Aust. 1853
(4) Adams/Addames ancestors of wife from Catherington Hampshire 1650.
Arrived South Australia in ship "Buffalo" 1836.

John H


"Ken Ozanne" <kenozanne@bordernet.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.845.1176487293.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
MA-R,
I mentioned in a post last year that of my 12 ancestors who came to
Australia, all were here by 1868 and I can trace 5 of them to before 1500,
probably all on multiple lines.

If that experience is anything to go on then an Australian book on
gateway ancestors would need to be impossibly large. Also, the number of
descendants (and so potential customers) would average much fewer than in
the US or Canada.

Best,
Ken

On 14/4/07 2:49, "gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com"
gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com> wrote:

From: mjcar@btinternet.com
Date: 13 Apr 2007 05:38:22 -0700
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Early Australian 'gateway' immigrants with mediaeval ancestry

I have been discussing off-list with Leslie Mahler the different focus
in two former British colonies (USA and Australia) on gateway
ancestors with royal descents (GARDs) - on-topic here because such
gateways open up mediaeval ancestry to new populations.

While there has been considerable publication of American GARDs, I am
unaware of any particular study from an Australian perspective;
instead, Australian efforts tend to focus either on 'pioneer'
ancestries on convict descents (eg the Fellowship of First Fleeters,
which necessarily embraces both). I appreciate that the colonial
American scene largely concentrates on British emigrants to 17th
century New England, and perhaps in order to be meaningful any
Australian counter-study should focus on immigrants there before, say,
1868 (when Transportation ceased).

I am aware of only two Australian convicts of royal descent (Thomas
and James Howlett, NSW, 1817). Are any posters aware of others? I
know some of the early colonial officials (eg Governor Macquarie and
his second wife; Governor Fitzroy) were GARDs, but how many left
Australian descendants? Are any other early Australian settlers known
to have mediaeval ancestry?

MA-R


Roger LeBlanc

Re: Henry Project update

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 14 apr 2007 20:20:16

I would like to thank Stewart Baldwin for making the new pages on this
complicated family group available for everyone through his website. It
really is a tremendous amount of work and time he has put into these new
pages, and I must confess I have difficulties trying to sort things out.
His thoroughness in discussing all of the information -factual and
otherwise- is very much appreciated.
The questions surrounding the paternity of Cunegonde's sons are very
interesting, but I find another aspect regarding her more intriguing.

This probably should wait until Stewart presents us with a page on
Ermentrude, the mother of Cunegonde, which might provide the answer I'm
looking for, and if he covers the sources as completely for her as he
has these latest individuals, the answer might well be there.
Given the tight chronology for Cunegonde's children back to Louis II,
hasn't anyone hypothesized that Ermentrude (Cunegonde's mother) might
have instead been the same as Ermentrude, the daughter of Charles the
Bald? Or is there really any evidence in the primary sources to preclude
that possibility? And in any event, what is known about Charles the
Bald's daughter of that name?

Roger LeBlanc

Stewart Baldwin

Re: Henry Project update

Legg inn av Stewart Baldwin » 14 apr 2007 23:34:59

On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:20:16 -0500, Roger LeBlanc <leblancr@mts.net>
wrote:

[snip]

This probably should wait until Stewart presents us with a page on
Ermentrude, the mother of Cunegonde, which might provide the answer I'm
looking for, and if he covers the sources as completely for her as he
has these latest individuals, the answer might well be there.
Given the tight chronology for Cunegonde's children back to Louis II,
hasn't anyone hypothesized that Ermentrude (Cunegonde's mother) might
have instead been the same as Ermentrude, the daughter of Charles the
Bald? Or is there really any evidence in the primary sources to preclude
that possibility? And in any event, what is known about Charles the
Bald's daughter of that name?

The only source for the parentage of Cunégonde's mother Ermentrude is
a series of genealogical tables, all going back to an eleventh century
original, which make Cunégond a daughter of Ermengarde, daughter of
Louis II of France. Any attempt to change Ermentrude's parentage
would contradict this testimony. I do not think that the tightness of
the chronology is serious (especially if we set aside some excessively
early birthdates for Cunégonde's son Adalbero which have been
occasionally stated).

As for Ermentrude, daughter of Charles the Bald, Werner, in his
account of Charlemagne's descendants, makes Ermentrude an abbess of
Hasnon in Ostrevant.

Stewart Baldwin

Peter Stewart

Re: Henry Project update

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 15 apr 2007 01:01:01

"Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:6mk223p2l6oq8jm9tbav99421ets336ltm@4ax.com...
On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:20:16 -0500, Roger LeBlanc <leblancr@mts.net
wrote:

[snip]

This probably should wait until Stewart presents us with a page on
Ermentrude, the mother of Cunegonde, which might provide the answer I'm
looking for, and if he covers the sources as completely for her as he
has these latest individuals, the answer might well be there.
Given the tight chronology for Cunegonde's children back to Louis II,
hasn't anyone hypothesized that Ermentrude (Cunegonde's mother) might
have instead been the same as Ermentrude, the daughter of Charles the
Bald? Or is there really any evidence in the primary sources to preclude
that possibility? And in any event, what is known about Charles the
Bald's daughter of that name?

The only source for the parentage of Cunégonde's mother Ermentrude is
a series of genealogical tables, all going back to an eleventh century
original, which make Cunégond a daughter of Ermengarde, daughter of
Louis II of France. Any attempt to change Ermentrude's parentage
would contradict this testimony. I do not think that the tightness of
the chronology is serious (especially if we set aside some excessively
early birthdates for Cunégonde's son Adalbero which have been
occasionally stated).

As to the chronology, we don't know exactly when Ermentrude was born, but
the estimate of ca 875 that is frequently given, for instance by Christian
Settipani, may be too late be some years.

We know from Regino that Louis the Stammerer had married his first wife,
Ansgard, as a young man and without the consent of his father, Charles the
Bald, who later separated them and brought about a second marriage, to
Adelaide (the mother of Ermentrude, NB there is an error in Settipani's
book, p 318, making Ansgard her mother).

It is fairly likely that this intervention of Charles the Bald in his son's
affairs took place before he made Louis a king, of Aquitaine, in March 867.
Ansgard is not given the title "queen" in a diploma of her son Carloman II,
suggesting that she may have been divorced before her husband was given the
royal title. Carloman was born ca 866, as he was described as around 18
years old in 884: the separation may have followed quickly after his birth.
Ansgard was called queen in an obituary notice from Rheims, but two of her
sons were kings by the time she died and this may have been a mistaken
presumption of the writer.

If Louis was married to Adelaide before becoming a king in March 867,
Ermentrude could have been born by the end of that year or early in 868, and
consequently Cunegonde _could_ have been born by the mid-880s and her eldest
son Adalbero by 900. Ermentrude's full brother Charles the Simple was born,
posthumously, in 879 - but whether ca 4 or ca 11 years separated his birth
from his sister's cannot be known for certain.

As for Ermentrude, daughter of Charles the Bald, Werner, in his
account of Charlemagne's descendants, makes Ermentrude an abbess of
Hasnon in Ostrevant.

She was still living in July 877, but there is no suggestion in the sources
of any irregularity in her life as an abbess.

Peter Stewart

Roger LeBlanc

Re: Henry Project update

Legg inn av Roger LeBlanc » 15 apr 2007 01:13:05

Thanks very much for the reply Stewart. I had to do some checking in the
group's archives, as I recalled an earlier discussion of these 11th
century tables, but wasn't sure of the specifics. I happily found what I
was looking for; in March 2002 (thread Carolingian table in the Munich
manuscript), the posting was actually one of yours where you posted some
of the tables and noted the known errors they contained. In the thread
"Siegfried of Luxemburg" (also March 2002) you wrote that the serious
errors were in the earlier generations. I believe it was a combination
of these observations that led me to wonder if the tables should be
relied on for Sigifridus' ascendancy through the female line.

As you can see I've entertained this idea for some time, and am
encouraged every so often to think it could have some basis. In fact,
your page for Cunegonde offers the information about Depoin's suggestion
concerning the 891 reference (Wintharius and Kunigunda), which you
remarked was chronologically not possible. If Cunegonde had been born
circa 875, -still of childbearing age in say 919, though not much later
than that date, one might well suppose she could have been married in 891.

The only source I have at hand is Settipani's Prehistoire des Capetiens,
where he shows (p 310) the same information for Ermentrude, daughter of
Charles the Bald, as that which you have cited (below), with the date 11
July 877.

Of course, I'm only guessing, based on what looks to me to be a more
workable chronology requiring less explaining. If it has any merit, I'm
afraid someone else is going to have to make the case. Probably none of
this effects Cunegonde's descendants in any event.

Roger LeBlanc

Stewart Baldwin wrote:

The only source for the parentage of Cunégonde's mother Ermentrude is
a series of genealogical tables, all going back to an eleventh century
original, which make Cunégond a daughter of Ermengarde, daughter of
Louis II of France. Any attempt to change Ermentrude's parentage
would contradict this testimony. I do not think that the tightness of
the chronology is serious (especially if we set aside some excessively
early birthdates for Cunégonde's son Adalbero which have been
occasionally stated).

As for Ermentrude, daughter of Charles the Bald, Werner, in his
account of Charlemagne's descendants, makes Ermentrude an abbess of
Hasnon in Ostrevant.

Stewart Baldwin




Gjest

Re: Thomas Cheke / Essex Rich

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 apr 2007 02:26:02

I agree there is something strange. It seems chronologically *possible* that
this is really 41Elizabeth, but without other corraborating evidence for the
time being, I have to believe that the compiler of the data must have made a
mistake.

Perhaps there are other contemporaneous document where Sir Richard Rich names
his wife as Penelope both before and after this alledged 1599 document.

Will



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: Markham: Fulk + Turold de Lizours....

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 apr 2007 03:31:02

Dear Sir Kenneth,
Stirnet.com shows (on page Markham01) Sir
Alexander de Markham who was Castellan of Nottingham Castle in the time of King Henry
II son or grandson of ? de Markham, possbly connected to Claron tenant in
West Markham 1088.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Bob Turcott

RE: OT: The Last King of France?

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 15 apr 2007 03:49:25

Steve,

It was an interesting article and I have posted my comment about it on that
website.

You have a nice website. Here is mine, its fun putting ancestral lines on a
website.
It shows the hard work you have done on your research.

Best Wishes
Bob Turcott
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... ttelagace/




From: "steven perkins" <scperkins@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: OT: The Last King of France?
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 08:06:46 -0500
An interesting article on a Bourbon in India.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/last-king-of-france.html

--
Steven C. Perkins SCPerkins@gmail.com
http://stevencperkins.com/
On-Line Journal of Genetics and Genealogy
http://jgg-online.blogspot.com/
Steven C. Perkins' Genealogy Page
http://stevencperkins.com/genealogy.html

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Gjest

Re: Thomas Cheke / Essex Rich

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 apr 2007 15:29:21

On Apr 17, 3:10 pm, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:
Shaw's knights has it as 11 May 1603


Thanks, Adrian - part of James I's initial glut. Another reason to
conclude that "41 Elizabeth" is a mistake when it refers to him as
"knight".

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Thomas Cheke / Essex Rich

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 apr 2007 16:16:04

Shaw's knights has it as 11 May 1603

In a message dated 17/04/2007 13:50:44 GMT Standard Time,
mjcar@btinternet.com writes:

Unless the first daughter was baptised some time after her birth,
which is unlikely but not impossible. I am aware of cases where an
elder sibling's delayed baptism has been put in hand due to the
imminent arrival of a younger.

I will try to ascertain the date of Thomas Cheke's knighthood when I
am next at the SoG, as this will give an "earliest" date for the
document apparently erroneously assigned to 41 Elizabeth.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Quirks of Google groups statistics

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 apr 2007 13:09:22

On Apr 18, 1:02 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Perhaps a more useful statistic might be one which showed the proportion of
the posts, made by each frequent contributor, having any bearing on medieval
genealogy.
My own calculations, made for the six months to date, have come up with the
startling figure of 0% for one of the most frequent contributors.
MM

Sadly, if that poster (I hesitate to refer to him as a contributor)
had not been encouraged to stay, perhaps we would not now still be
suffering from his dross and dissension? Things can only improve.

Regards, Michael

Peter Stewart

Re: Quirks of Google groups statistics

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 apr 2007 13:51:42

<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1176898162.134561.79390@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 18, 1:02 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Perhaps a more useful statistic might be one which showed the proportion
of
the posts, made by each frequent contributor, having any bearing on
medieval
genealogy.
My own calculations, made for the six months to date, have come up with
the
startling figure of 0% for one of the most frequent contributors.
MM

Sadly, if that poster (I hesitate to refer to him as a contributor)
had not been encouraged to stay, perhaps we would not now still be
suffering from his dross and dissension? Things can only improve.

MM (is his first name also Michael, or Miller?) is apparently not referring
to Brandon as the poster scoring 0% for medieval genealogy over the past six
months - going by the sentiments in his post of 29 March at

http://groups.google.com.au/group/soc.g ... 4d7e334c10

he presumably means someone else. But if he is so coy about stating the
offender's name to substantiate his assessment, we may never know....

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Quirks of Google groups statistics

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 apr 2007 14:06:02

Perhaps a more useful statistic might be one which showed the proportion of
the posts, made by each frequent contributor, having any bearing on medieval
genealogy.
My own calculations, made for the six months to date, have come up with the
startling figure of 0% for one of the most frequent contributors.
MM

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