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Gjest

Re: Mother of Hugh Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mar 2007 13:46:47

Thanks for the feedback.
Always ready to be educated, never accepting authority as such, I
would be very interested to see some documents in which both forms of
THIS/THESE name(s) were interchanged.


On Mar 18, 3:10 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Millerfairfi...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.311.1174240773.3661.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

I must confess to ignorance about the possible distinctions between
Adeliza,
Adelicia and Adelida. But I have noted the various names given as
alternative spellings in a number of 12th century and earlier documents
relating to the
Louvain family.

You are quite right - these were forms of the same name, sometimes
interchanged even in the same document, as of course Keats-Rohan knows very
well.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: John Brandon

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mar 2007 16:56:02

url=www.brandon +is +becoming +utterly +intolerable.com

Robert Forrest

Lucy Ros, wife of Robert Plumpton--CP Correction?

Legg inn av Robert Forrest » 19 mar 2007 17:25:56

CP 11:94, discussing Sir William de Ros (d. prob. 1264, m. Lucy FitzPiers?)
footnote i:
"(i) Rievaulx Chartulary, p. 360. He had yr. sons, William (see Ros of
Ingmanthorpe), Alexander, Herbert and John, Knights, and Piers, and
daughters Lucy, who m. Robert, s. of Robert de Plumton, and Alice, who m.
Sir John Comyn, lord of Badenoch..."
The footnote then gives a string of citations for all the younger sons and
daughters.

CP 11:117-118, discussing the Sir William de Ros of Ingmanthorpe referred to
above, says:
"...presumably 3rd son of Sir William (son of Robert) de Ros of Helmsley,
who d. c1264...", and goes on to tell us that this William married Eustache
FitzHugh, widow of Nicholas de Cauntelo, adding a footnote (h) on p. 118:
"...Eustache d. in his lifetime. He left a younger son Thomas...and several
daughters: Margaret..., Mary..., and apparently Lucy, wife of Sir Robert de
Plumpton (Yorks. Deeds, Yorks Rec. Ser., vol. v, no. 273), who had a da.
named Eustache(Idem, no. 306)..."

So was Lucy who married Robert Plumpton the daughter (as on p. 94) or the
granddaughter (as on p. 118) of Sir William de Ros of Helmsley?

Robert Forrest

John P. Ravilious

Re: Lucy Ros, wife of Robert Plumpton--CP Correction?

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 19 mar 2007 17:57:24

Dear Robert,

CP XI:117-118 is correct. Lucy, wife of Sir Robert de Plumpton,
was the daughter of Sir William de Ros of Ingmanthorpe and his wife
Eustache, or Eustachia. The best evidence for this I've seen: the
issue of Sir Robert de Plumpton and Lucy de Ros included Eustachia, or
"Eustasia, dau. of Robert Plumpton, of Plumpton", wife of Sir Peter de
Middleton [Foster, Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire,
pedigree of Middleton]. Lucy, daughter of Sir William de Ros of
Helmsley (sister of William of Ingmanthorpe) was the wife of William
de Kyme, of Sotby, Lincs. and mother of Philip de Kyme [see
Genealogics, #I00340654].

This constitutes a correction to CP XI:94. Thanks for bringing
this to the attention of the list; I will pass same on to Chris
Phillips for his website, http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk

Many thanks for this!

Cheers,

John




On Mar 19, 12:25 pm, "Robert Forrest" <forr...@whidbey.com> wrote:
CP 11:94, discussing Sir William de Ros (d. prob. 1264, m. Lucy FitzPiers?)
footnote i:
"(i) Rievaulx Chartulary, p. 360. He had yr. sons, William (see Ros of
Ingmanthorpe), Alexander, Herbert and John, Knights, and Piers, and
daughters Lucy, who m. Robert, s. of Robert de Plumton, and Alice, who m.
Sir John Comyn, lord of Badenoch..."
The footnote then gives a string of citations for all the younger sons and
daughters.

CP 11:117-118, discussing the Sir William de Ros of Ingmanthorpe referred to
above, says:
"...presumably 3rd son of Sir William (son of Robert) de Ros of Helmsley,
who d. c1264...", and goes on to tell us that this William married Eustache
FitzHugh, widow of Nicholas de Cauntelo, adding a footnote (h) on p. 118:
"...Eustache d. in his lifetime. He left a younger son Thomas...and several
daughters: Margaret..., Mary..., and apparently Lucy, wife of Sir Robert de
Plumpton (Yorks. Deeds, Yorks Rec. Ser., vol. v, no. 273), who had a da.
named Eustache(Idem, no. 306)..."

So was Lucy who married Robert Plumpton the daughter (as on p. 94) or the
granddaughter (as on p. 118) of Sir William de Ros of Helmsley?

Robert Forrest

John Pound

Re: Sir Andrew Brereton

Legg inn av John Pound » 19 mar 2007 17:58:36

Dear Fellow Researchers,



Thank you for all your responses so far - I echo the caveats about reliance
on the Heralds Visitations - indeed, a blame a senior moment for my apparent
reliance on the Cheshire Visitation - (which was in fact the source I gad in
front of me at the time) - my main initial source of Cheshire Pedigrees is
Ormerod, and I am fortune enough to possess all three volumes of the second
edition.



I am intrigued as to the sources of the supposed second, or sometimes
apparently third marriage for Sir Andrew to Anne Done which seem to abound
in replicated web-based data. If any one has any post-Ormerod leads pleased
do get in touch - and apologies for my earlier omission.



Kind regards,



John Wedgwood Pound

John Brandon

Re: John Brandon

Legg inn av John Brandon » 19 mar 2007 20:03:30

Oh, come on now, at least admit to smiling slightly at the cautionary
tale of plebian, trendy Michael who threw away his favorite clothes
when he noticed them being worn by lower-class personages ...

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: John Brandon

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 19 mar 2007 23:51:02

hear + bloody + hear
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: Millerfairfield@aol.com
Date: 03/20/07 02:24:49
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: John Brandon

url=www.brandon +is +becoming +utterly +intolerable.com





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John Brandon

Re: John Brandon

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 mar 2007 00:17:30

Aw, I give up. You can't get any good results with a whacky spelling
like "Merilyn."

Leo van de Pas

Re: John Brandon

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 20 mar 2007 00:37:27

If you are not a White Anglo Saxon Protestant living in America and adhere
to rigid spellings you are whacky----how dare people in other countries have
whacky names? Individuality is just not on, other cultures are just beyond
the pale----bloody good thing the Americans are in Iraq, lets hope those
whacky people learn something , hope they all soon change their names into
unwhacky ones, that would be a beginning. Let the WASPS
reign.......................

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Brandon" <starbuck95@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: John Brandon


Aw, I give up. You can't get any good results with a whacky spelling
like "Merilyn."


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Peter Stewart

Re: Mother of Hugh Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 mar 2007 00:54:55

On Mar 19, 11:46 pm, ski...@racsa.co.cr wrote:
Thanks for the feedback.
Always ready to be educated, never accepting authority as such, I
would be very interested to see some documents in which both forms of
THIS/THESE name(s) were interchanged.

There are charters where one version of the name is given in the text
and another in the subscription - I don't have an example at my
fingertips, or time to search just now, but will post again if I come
across any instances. The name also occurs in more outlandish forms,
such as "Alipdis".

You don't have to go far to find two forms, Adeliz and Adelicia,
demonstrably used for the same person in different documents, as in
the case that started this thread - another Tosny lady, the daughter
of Roger I and Godehildis, who married William fitz Osbern, earl of
Hereford, was named "Adeliz" in his charter of ca 1050 ("ego
Guillelmus filius Osberni...cum uxore mea Adeliz") and "Adelicia" in
the obituary of Lyre abbey that he founded ("obiit Alelicia uxor
Willelmi filii Osberni").

Peter Stewart

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Sir Andrew Brereton

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 mar 2007 01:21:32

In message of 19 Mar, "John Pound" <John@johnpound.org> wrote:

Dear Fellow Researchers,

snip

my main initial source of Cheshire Pedigrees is Ormerod, and I am
fortune enough to possess all three volumes of the second edition.

And I am equally fortunate but I merely have the CDROM of same, from the
Cheshire Family History Society:

http://www.fhsc.org.uk/fhsc/cdrom.htm

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Kay Allen

Re: Clues from Lists-Indexes, vol. 24 (Chancery Proc., Serie

Legg inn av Kay Allen » 20 mar 2007 02:36:58

John,

You are a most admirable troll :-) :-) :-)


K Allen
--- John Brandon <starbuck95@hotmail.com> wrote:

Showing that I'm almost as good at trolling through
books as through
_digitized_ books ...

p. 30

Middelcott, John
--Bathe, Clement
--Bishopstrow [Wilts.], manor

p. 60

--Franklyn, William
--Barret, Christopher
--North Elmham [Norfolk]

p. 61

--Flete, George, and Joan his wife
--Deerawghe, Edward, and another
--Gedgrave [Suff], copyhold of manor

--Gostwicke, William
--Hatleye, Robert, Dorothy his wife, and others
--Putnoe manor in Goldington and Clapham [Bedford]

p.68

--Machell, John
--Machell, Matthew
--Guilden, Sutton and Burneside, manors of, London,
Tottenham,
Hatfield, Hinton Admiral, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel
and Goostrey
[Chester, Westmoreland, Middlesex, Hertford, Hants &
Dorset]

--Monday, Christian, widow
--Dowse, Richard, and others
--Isle of Wight [Hants.], farm called 'Parke' in

p.73

--Spurlinge, John
--Farcloughe, Margaret, widow
--Weston Argentine [Herts.], copyhold of manor

--Standen, Edmund
--Bullock, Thomas, and others
--Arborfield [Berks.], manor

p. 93

--Chaderton, Humphrey
--Mytton alias Harpesfeild, John, and Edward
--Horton [Stafford], parcel of manor

p. 99

--Fyndern, Michael
--Granger, Lancelot, and others
--Berkswell and Balsall [Warwick]

p. 103

--Gregory alias Norman, John, and Richard
--Trobridge, Thomas
--Money matters [Somerset]

p. 105
--Huberd, Edward, and Eleanor his wife
--Pigott, Christopher, and others
--Loughton, manor [Bucks.]

p. 108

--Hanson, Richard
--Skeper, Edward, and Mary his wife
--Money matters [Lincoln]

p. 114

--Lawrence, Francis
--Midlecott, William
--Warminster [Wilts.]

p. 130

--Standen, Edmund
--Bullock, Dorothy, widow, and others
--Arborfield and Barkham, manors, Shinfield, Hurst,
Wokingham,
Finchampstead, &c. [Berks. and Wilts.]

p. 137

--Weste, John
--Eastwicke, Christopher, and others
--Hockliffe [Bedford], parcel of manor (mutilated)

p. 140
--Watson, John, and Thomas
--Mansfeld, Margaret
--Money matters [York].


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Tim Cartmell

Re: de Ros/Roos of Yorkshire

Legg inn av Tim Cartmell » 20 mar 2007 03:31:02

Dear John P. Ravilious,

Regarding your March 18, 2007 posting of the de Ros/Roos of Yorkshire, I also have an interest in this family as my ancestry would be through the following daughters if they are indeed proven lines.

Firstly, I have in my records an Alice de Ros, who is stated as being the daughter of Everand, Baron de Ros, she was the wife of William de Percy, 3rd Baron Percy in Yorkshire. They were supposedly the parents of William de Percy, lord of Topcliffe in Yorkshire. Source, A History of the House of Percy, by Gerald Brenan, published 1902. Can this be further confirmed? Gerald Brenan's publication lacked citation of primary sources.

Secondly, In 2005 Brendan Wilson posted to SMG that Sir Gervasius (or Geoffrey) de Lowther, Knt. of Lowther in Westmorland (mentioned 1217) married a daughter of de Ros, Baron of Kendal. Source, Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire and West Riding, by Joseph Foster, published 1874. Is there any substance for this family connection?

Thirdly, Sir Thomas de Musgrave, Knt. of Hartley in Westmorland (d:1385) married Margaret de Ros of Youlton in Yorkshire. Could you tell me if this Margaret is descended from the Sir Alexander de Ros of Yolton, son of Sir William de Ros of Helmsley in Holderness of your post?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Timothy J. Cartmell

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Peter Stewart

Re: Mother of Hugh Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 20 mar 2007 05:07:11

On Mar 20, 10:54 am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
On Mar 19, 11:46 pm, ski...@racsa.co.cr wrote:

Thanks for the feedback.
Always ready to be educated, never accepting authority as such, I
would be very interested to see some documents in which both forms of
THIS/THESE name(s) were interchanged.

There are charters where one version of the name is given in the text
and another in the subscription - I don't have an example at my
fingertips, or time to search just now, but will post again if I come
across any instances. The name also occurs in more outlandish forms,
such as "Alipdis".

You don't have to go far to find two forms, Adeliz and Adelicia,
demonstrably used for the same person in different documents, as in
the case that started this thread - another Tosny lady, the daughter
of Roger I and Godehildis, who married William fitz Osbern, earl of
Hereford, was named "Adeliz" in his charter of ca 1050 ("ego
Guillelmus filius Osberni...cum uxore mea Adeliz") and "Adelicia" in
the obituary of Lyre abbey that he founded ("obiit Alelicia uxor
Willelmi filii Osberni").

The last quotation was from the chronicle of Lyre abbey, not the
obituary.

A few other examples of women of named A(de)lais/A(de)licia occurring
under various forms are:

The wife of Ademar III, count of Angoulême, who was a daughter of
Pierre I of Courtenay and Elizabeth - in her husband's charter of
1186/97 for Saint-Amand de Boix she appears as "Alaidis" (Ego Ademarus
comes Engolismensis et uxor mea, comitissa Alaidis de Courtenai
nomine), but in the obituary of the Hôtel-Dieu de Provins she occurs
first as Alesis in her own notice on 12 February (Ob. Dilectissima
nostra Alesis, comitissa Angolismensis, que multa bona nobis contulit)
and then as Aales is her husband's on 18 December (Haymardus, comes
Angolismensis, mariti quondam Aales, comitisse Angolismensis, que
nobis multa bona contulit).

The second wife of Count Otto William of Mâcon, of unknown family
origin - in her husband's charter for Cluny ca 1015 she occurs as
Adeleidis (Ego Otto comes et uxor mea Adeleidis), and in the obituary
of Saint-Pierre de Mâcon as Adalasia under 29 May (Adalasia comitissa
vocata, regali progenie orta, seculo decessit).

Peter Stewart

John Matthews

Re: John Brandon

Legg inn av John Matthews » 20 mar 2007 08:27:16

On 19 Mar, 23:37, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
If you are not a White Anglo Saxon Protestant living in America and adhere
to rigid spellings you are whacky----how dare people in other countries have
whacky names? Individuality is just not on, other cultures are just beyond
the pale----bloody good thing the Americans are in Iraq, lets hope those
whacky people learn something , hope they all soon change their names into
unwhacky ones, that would be a beginning. Let the WASPS
reign.......................



----- Original Message -----
From: "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: John Brandon

Aw, I give up. You can't get any good results with a whacky spelling
like "Merilyn."

-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Talking of whacky names, what about that Leo van de Pas? I mean what's
that all about? Where does it begin or end?

John Matthews (there's a sensible name!)

Leo van de Pas

Re: John Brandon

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 20 mar 2007 08:59:30

I am glad you did see my sense for the rediculous----I only extended the
attitude of John Brandon. I know he is a viscious person but still I think
more people should stand up to him. His destructive attitude is just
terrible. For a very long time I automatically wipe his messages but, of
course, I see the ones of people reacting to him. The things he said to
Merilyn Pedrick in two separate messages was just disgusting.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Matthews" <rjmatsleepers@yahoo.co.uk>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: John Brandon


On 19 Mar, 23:37, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
If you are not a White Anglo Saxon Protestant living in America and
adhere
to rigid spellings you are whacky----how dare people in other countries
have
whacky names? Individuality is just not on, other cultures are just
beyond
the pale----bloody good thing the Americans are in Iraq, lets hope those
whacky people learn something , hope they all soon change their names
into
unwhacky ones, that would be a beginning. Let the WASPS
reign.......................



----- Original Message -----
From: "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: John Brandon

Aw, I give up. You can't get any good results with a whacky spelling
like "Merilyn."

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Talking of whacky names, what about that Leo van de Pas? I mean what's
that all about? Where does it begin or end?

John Matthews (there's a sensible name!)


-------------------------------
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John Brandon

Re: John Brandon

Legg inn av John Brandon » 20 mar 2007 15:08:09

If you are not a White Anglo Saxon Protestant living in America and adhere
to rigid spellings you are whacky----how dare people in other countries have
whacky names? Individuality is just not on, other cultures are just beyond
the pale----bloody good thing the Americans are in Iraq, lets hope those
whacky people learn something , hope they all soon change their names into
unwhacky ones, that would be a beginning. Let the WASPS
reign.......................

All I meant was that "Merilyn" is an unusual spelling (not many
instances to be found in Google Books). We have plenty of very whacky
names over here--I have three first-cousins-once-removed named Chaska,
Kenya, and Kaylis (all boys). Or check the ancestor table of Anna
Nicole Smith.

Peter Stewart

Re: Some refs to New England

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 21 mar 2007 01:53:38

On Mar 21, 8:41 am, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Mar 20, 5:31 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

"John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1174398894.718541.130350@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

"[S]elf-besotted" and "insufferable"? And here I thought we were no
longer living in the year 1845!

The field of medieval genealogy had its serial pests and virulent fools in
1845 too - and English vocabulary hasn't changed or decayed much since then,
as the ignorant & vapid ankle-biter apparently imagines.

Peter Stewart

Even the Queen stopped referring the P. Charles as "self-besotted" and
"insufferable" about 1990 (folks didn't know exactly what it meant and
were giving her strange looks). All I'm sayin, Peter, is try to be a
little up-to-date in your locutions. You wouldn't want people to
think of you as a fuddy duddy or old fart.

Obviously you know exactly what I meant or you wouldn't resort to yet
another gadfly evasion.

English and its literature (my usual field of activity) are many
centuries old and in an educated perpective 1845 and 2007 are both
modern dates, not far apart.

Anyone who reads SGM can work out what "self-besotted" and
"insufferable" eman and know these terms describe you accurately.

Unlike you, Prince Charles is besotted with a number of causes and at
least one person apart from himself - and on a good day he is
sufferable.

Peter Stewart

John P. Ravilious

Re: de Ros/Roos of Yorkshire

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 21 mar 2007 04:12:01

Dear Tim,

Thanks for your query re: the de Ros family. My comments and/or
relevant documentation are interspersed below, following the
individual identifications you cited.



On Mar 19, 10:20 pm, Tim Cartmell <inver1...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Dear John P. Ravilious,

Regarding your March 18, 2007 posting of the de Ros/Roos of Yorkshire, I also have an interest in this family as my ancestry would be through the following daughters if they are indeed proven lines.

Firstly, I have in my records an Alice de Ros, who is stated as being the daughter of Everand, Baron de Ros, she was the wife of William de Percy, 3rd Baron Percy in Yorkshire. They were supposedly the parents of William de Percy, lord of Topcliffe in Yorkshire. Source, A History of the House of Percy, by Gerald Brenan, published 1902. Can this be further confirmed? Gerald Brenan's publication lacked citation of primary sources.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I see no reference to such a marriage, and certainly see no such
Ros ancestry for the early generations of the Percy family. The third
Percy shown as holding Topcliffe was William de Perci or Percy (d.
1175), whose wife was Alice. She was, however, identified by Round as
'Adelidis de Tunbridge', citing charters of Salley Abbey in Monasticon
Anglicanum (V:512-3). Round identified her as a daughter of Gilbert
de Clare; she is identified in Complete Peerage (X:441, note, in the
Percy article) as a daughter of Richard de Clare (d. 1136) by Adeliza
of Chester. I concur in this identification in CP



Secondly, In 2005 Brendan Wilson posted to SMG that Sir Gervasius (or Geoffrey) de Lowther, Knt. of Lowther in Westmorland (mentioned 1217) married a daughter of de Ros, Baron of Kendal. Source, Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire and West Riding, by Joseph Foster, published 1874. Is there any substance for this family connection?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I see nothing in my notes about the connection. While there
certainly might be a Lowther-de Ros marriage, the chronology is a
problem as given. Margaret de Brus, sister and coheiress of the last
de Brus lord of Kendal, likely married Robert de Ros of Wark say
1240-1250, so it seems unlikely a son in law of theirs would have been
active in 1217.



Thirdly, Sir Thomas de Musgrave, Knt. of Hartley in Westmorland (d:1385) married Margaret de Ros of Youlton in Yorkshire. Could you tell me if this Margaret is descended from the Sir Alexander de Ros of Yolton, son of Sir William de Ros of Helmsley in Holderness of your post?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This link is valid. Sir Alexander de Ros of Yolton, co. Yorks.
was succeeded by his son Sir William. Sir William's daughter and heir
was Margaret, whom you identify above.



Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Timothy J. Cartmell


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I hope the foregoing is of use.

Cheers,

John





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John Brandon

Re: Some refs to New England

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 mar 2007 12:14:43

Unlike you, Prince Charles is besotted with a number of causes and at
least one person apart from himself - and on a good day he is
sufferable.

And just how would you know this? :-)



John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 mar 2007 22:33:16

Oh, snap ...

The fact that Henry Crowne (son of Agnes [Mackworth] Crowne) married a
granddaughter of Arthur Mackworth is quite a good clue, isn't it??

At least, I think so.

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 21 mar 2007 23:17:13

Oh, snap ...

The fact that Henry Crowne (son of Agnes [Mackworth] Crowne) married a
granddaughter of Arthur Mackworth is quite a good clue, isn't it??

At least, I think so.

I'm wondering about this now, however.

Rebecca wife of Wharf is usually called a daughter of "Mrs. Arthur
Mackworth," who at this time would have been Jane (----) (Andrews)
Mackworth, wife of Arthur Mackworth, and widow of Samuel Andrews.
(She was the mother of James Andrews who married Dorcas Mitton).

The extracted IGI shows:

Saint Peter Pauls Wharf, London
--Rebecca Andrews, daughter of Samuel, bapt. 16 April 1628

In other words, could the wife of Nathaniel Wharf have been nee
Andrews rather than Mackworth? I wonder.


Gjest

Re: More on Ralph Bowes / Margaret Conyers

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mar 2007 10:54:02

In a message dated 22/03/2007 02:50:49 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:

I wonder that this last entry might not be when he married ? Although
he is granted his manor of Streatlam here, I'm showing it still in the
family in the next two generations at least, so perhaps this was
something like in trust for the children of his wife Margaret
Conyers ? Could help flush out which Conyers she was from.


According to "The Bowes of Streatlam" by Christine M Newman, Durham County
Local History Society 1999, Margery (or Margaret) Conyers was the daughter of
Sir Richard Conyers of South Cowton (N.R. Yorks) and his wife, Alice Wycliff.


Kind Regards,

Rose
Surrey / UK

Researching in Pembrokeshire: DAVIES (of St. Ishmael's/Talbenny), FEILD,
FERRIOR, ELLIOT (of Steynton/Amroth), THOMAS (of Marloes/Llanstadwell), CORNOCK,
HIER, ROWE (of Penally) and far too many others to list.

Researching in Ireland : Wexford - Ballycanew area: CRANWILL / CRANWELL,
KEEGAN, CONNORS / CONNOR.

Researching in Ireland : ST. LEGER

Researching in England : HEVENINGHAM

Gjest

Re: parents of Elizabeth Smith who married William Skipwith

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mar 2007 15:41:03

In a message dated 3/22/2007 7:01:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
dicentraexima@yahoo.com writes:

Regarding Sarah Peyton, is additional information available beyond
the tantalizing descendant of the Peytons of Isleham?


Here
_http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00498224&tree=LEO_
(http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php ... 4&tree=LEO)



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Gjest

Re: Early Welfs and Azzo II

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mar 2007 16:51:02

If you google for Carr Collins Royal Genealogies
it appears someone has extracted the entire book to webpages.

Will Johnson



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John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 mar 2007 17:00:48

These are the English baptisms I speculate could be for children of
Samuel and Jane (---) Andrews [later Mackworth]:

Saint James Garlickhithe, London
--James Andrews, son of Samuel and Jane, bapt. 5 March 1625

Saint Peter Pauls Wharf, London
--Rebecca Andrews, daughter of Samuel, bapt. 16 April 1628

Saint James Garlickhithe, London
--Jane Andrews, daughter of Samuel and Jane, bapt. 7 March 1629

Saint James Garlickhithe, London
--Elizabeth Andrews, daughter of Samuel and Jane, bapt. 13 May 1632

Saint James Garlickhithe, London
--Samuel Andrews, son of Samuel, bapt. 16 Aug. 1634 (d. 16 Sept. 1634)

Wouldn't this family be covered the the 1633-35 years of Great
Migration? Maybe someone could check ...

Gjest

Re:de la Pole of Mawddwy

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 mar 2007 17:31:02

I have been toiling with the help of Brice Clagett to rationalise the
descent of John Mouthe/ Mawddwy (d.1403). The result is a 20 kb file.
Would it be intolerable for me to post the current draft on SGM?
Or would people prefer me to post an abbreviated abstract, and invite
colleagues to ask me if they want to have the full file mailed to them?
MM

Don Stone

Re: de la Pole of Mawddwy

Legg inn av Don Stone » 22 mar 2007 17:53:02

Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:
I have been toiling with the help of Brice Clagett to rationalise the
descent of John Mouthe/ Mawddwy (d.1403). The result is a 20 kb file.
Would it be intolerable for me to post the current draft on SGM?
Or would people prefer me to post an abbreviated abstract, and invite
colleagues to ask me if they want to have the full file mailed to them?
MM

Michael,

The maximum message length for GEN-MEDIEVAL is 30 KB. However, long
posts have drawbacks. (One can easily imagine someone responding
"Thanks for this useful information" followed by a quote of the complete
post.)

One strategy is to break up the Mouthe/Mawddwy 20 KB file into several
parts.

Alternatively, the file could be put on the web and a link to it
supplied in a short SGM/GEN-MEDIEVAL message with an abstract of its
contents. You would want this web page to be around for a while,
though, so that when people find discussions of it in the SGM or GEN-MED
archives, they will be able to go to the web page.

-- Don Stone

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 mar 2007 19:30:42

It seems Alice Rogers may not have been granddaughter of either Arthur
Mackworth or his wife Jane (---) Andrews for the following reasons:

1. Henry Crowne and Alice Rogers were married in 1676.
2. Rebecca (? Mackworth and/or Andrews) Wharf had a son Nathaniel
Wharf born in 1662, per the _Maine Hist. Soc. Collections_ ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... niel+wharf

Unless Alice Rogers was very young at marriage (say 14 or 15), she
couldn't be the daughter of Rebecca (Mackworth/Andrews) Wharf, whose
first husband was still alive in 1662. Therefore Alice was apparently
a child of Mr. Rogers' (presumed) first marriage.

But one can see the sort of logic in this match, since Henry Crowne's
mother had been born a Mackworth, and Alice Roger's step-mother was
the daughter of a Mrs. Mackworth. They could both truthfully speak of
having a grandmother named Mackworth.

Interesting! :-) :-)

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 mar 2007 20:09:13

James Andrews' three daughters were called Rebecca, Dorcas [my
ancestor], and Jane. This may support the idea that Rebecca Wharf was
his sister, rather than step-sister.

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... cca+boston

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 mar 2007 21:28:04

The will of Mrs. Jane Mackworth mentions, among others, her daughter
Sarah, wife of Abraham Adams.

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... niel+wharf

The extracted IGI for Boston has ...

--Abraham Adams, son of Abraham and Sarah, bapt. 11 Nov. 1667
--Jane Adams, dau. of Abraham and Sarah, bapt. 22 Feb. 1669
--Mackworth Adams, son of Abraham and Hannah [?], bapt. 17 April 1672
--Isaac Adams, son of Abraham and Sarah, bapt. 10 Nov. 1674

Thus it seems Jane's daughter Sarah, at least, was by Mr. Mackworth.
Savage's _Dictionary_ says this about Abraham Adams:

ADAMS, ABRAHAM, Boston, cooper, perhaps s. of Nathaniel of Weymouth,
had liv. at Falmouth, where bef. 1667 he m. Sarah, d. of Arthur
Macworth, and from his wid. had gift of an isl. in Casco Bay. Willis,
I. 75. Later in life he was an innholder, and one of that band of
volunteers wh. took, Oct. 1689, a piratic. vessel, in the Vineyard
Sound, after some resist. and brot. her into B. His w. was Abigail, d.
of Nicholas Wilmot, wh. in his will of 27 Sept. 1684, provides for her
sh. of his est. From the will of Adams, made 6, pro. 18 Apr. 1700, we
learn, that he had by a former w. i.e. Macworth's d. two ds. Sarah
Grant and Jane Snelling, and by w. Abigail, made extrix. had
Zechariah, Samuel, Abraham, Mary, Abigail, and Elizabeth.

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/topic/newen ... 1/9-15.htm

So even if it turns out Rebecca's descendants don't have a Mackworth
line, there may be Mackworth descendants through Sarah (Adams) Grant
and Jane (Adams) Snelling.

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 mar 2007 21:38:34

James Andrews' granddaughter Jemima (daughter of his short-lived son
James) married Benjamin Snelling, son of John and Jane (Adams)
Snelling. Any children of this couple would have had a double descent
from Mrs. Jane (---) (Andrews) Mackworth, I suppose ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0FDJ4 ... ing&pgis=1

http://www.geneajourney.com/snelling.html#benj

These Snelling are included in GBR's _RD600_ with a remote royal line,
I think.


John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 mar 2007 22:34:56

James Andrews' granddaughter Jemima (daughter of his short-lived son
James) married Benjamin Snelling, son of John and Jane (Adams)
Snelling. Any children of this couple would have had a double descent
from Mrs. Jane (---) (Andrews) Mackworth, I suppose ...

Corrections: looks like Benjamin Snelling was _brother_, not son, of
John who married Jane Adams ...

http://www.geneajourney.com/snelling.html#john1

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 22 mar 2007 22:49:14

James Cumming supplied me with the following refs. from Noyes-Libby-
Davis, _Genealogical Dictionary of Maine, NH, etc._:

Nathaniel Wharfe is on p 742 of Genealogical Dictionary of Maine and
New Hampshire. It says Falmouth , wit. a Felt deed 27 November 1662.
married Rebecca, eldest daughter of Mr Arthur Mackworth. He appraised
Richard Martin's estate 23 February 1672/3. his own estate was
appraised by Robert Corbin and Jenkin Williams 23 June 1673. Rebecca
married 2nd William Rogers. 2 children Nathaniel died after 12 April
1736,over 75 years old, lived Wharf's Point m 30 January 1683,
Gloucester, MA Anna Riggs 11 children, Rebecca adm to 2nd Church
Boston in 1690 married Boston 1693 Francis Holmes, also possibly an
Arthur abt 20 in 1684.

Arthur Mackworth, Gentleman (GDMNH p 451) recieved a grant of 500
acres from Sir Ferdinando Gorges. Probably came over in 1630 with
Vines or in 1631 with Lewis nunc will given to Reverend Robert Jordan
17 August 1660. No certain identification of his wife beyond Jane. 3
daughters mentioned Rebecca Wharf, Sarah, wife of Abraham Adams and
Elizabeth Purchase. son Arthur d sp

Austin W. Spencer

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av Austin W. Spencer » 23 mar 2007 03:16:51

On Mar 21, 5:17 pm, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Oh, snap ...

The fact that Henry Crowne (son of Agnes [Mackworth] Crowne) married a
granddaughter of Arthur Mackworth is quite a good clue, isn't it??

At least, I think so.

I'm wondering about this now, however.

Rebecca wife of Wharf is usually called a daughter of "Mrs. Arthur
Mackworth," who at this time would have been Jane (----) (Andrews)
Mackworth, wife of Arthur Mackworth, and widow of Samuel Andrews.
(She was the mother of James Andrews who married DorcasMitton).

The extracted IGI shows:

Saint Peter Pauls Wharf, London
--Rebecca Andrews, daughter of Samuel, bapt. 16 April 1628

In other words, could the wife of Nathaniel Wharf have been nee
Andrews rather than Mackworth? I wonder.

No, you had it right the first time, according to Robert J. Dunkle,
"The Andrews-Cogswell-Page Bible," _The Genealogist_ [USA] 3 (1982)
45-95, at 51 (Rebecca ANDREWS died in infancy), 56 (Rebecca MACKWORTH
married Nathaniel Wharf). Indeed, an early and thorough consultation
of that article could have saved you a whole lot of time and spared
the rest of us a tedious rehearsal of well-established facts. When you
do consult this article, however, do not forget to consult David L.
Greene's addendum in the "Correspondence" section of the same volume,
pp. 263-4. Robert Charles Anderson, when preparing his biography of
Samuel Andrews for _The Great Migration Begins_ (1995), 1:55-8,
apparently did forget this.

Austin W. Spencer

Rosie Bevan

Re: Lucy Ros, wife of Robert Plumpton--CP Correction?

Legg inn av Rosie Bevan » 23 mar 2007 06:20:08

Following Robert Forrest's interesting post (it would be good to see
the deeds posted) it is appropriate to post some more details about
the identity of the other Lucy de Ros, which was discussed in the
thread "Lucy (de Ros ?) de Audley, wife of Sir William de Ryther" in
January. The origin of the statement that Lucy was the daughter of
John, son of Robert de Ros of Helmsley, is an interpretation of a 1280
fine. Hopefully it might clarify the position as to the identity of
Lucy. It certainly gives us a previously unknown son of Robert de Ros
named Alexander.

The following comes from F.H. Slingsby (ed.). Feet of Fines for the
County of York from 1272-1300. Yorkshire Archaeological Society, 1956.
(Y.A.S.Record Series, vol. CXXI), the first of two consecutive fines
dealing with the Ryther properties, the abstracts of which are given
below. The date of the first one is January 14 1280.

"28.York. Morrow of Hil. 8 Edw I. Before the same. Between John, son
of Robert de Ros of Hamelak, quer., and William de Rither, deforc., of
the manors of Rither, Schardecroft, Gyldhusum' and the advowson of
Rither church. Covenant. John's right as of William's gift. John and
his heirs to hold of the chief lords. William and his heirs to
warrant. For a sore sparrowhawk."

This feoffment was the first stage of a settlement. The second fine as
given by John took place very soon after, on February 2 1280.

' 54. York. Morrow of Cand. Before the same. Between William de
Ryther, quer., and John de Ros, deforc., of the manors of Ryther,
Scarthecroft and Gildehus' with the advowson of Ryther church.
Covenant. John's right. William and Lucy his wife and the heirs of
Lucy's body to hold of the chief lords with remainder to William and
reversion after William's death to John and the heirs of his body with
remainders to Alexander, John's brother, and the heirs of his body and
to William's next heirs. '

The two fines had a threefold purpose - feoffment, marriage jointure,
and protection against wardship of the lands in case of a minority.
That Gildersdale was of the fee of Ros at the time of the settlement,
there is no question - it is listed in Feudal Aids with Robert's
holding as chief lord given in the past tense, meaning its tenure was
recorded just after his decease in 1285. Its two carucates had
descended to the Ros family via the Trussebuts, with William de Ros
inheriting it on the death of his aunt Agatha in 1247. It is possible
that John had been enfeoffed in this manor, but there are indications
that Rithers were tenants long before it passed into Ros posession,
and the marriage settlement shows that it was unlikely to have been
Lucy's maritagium.

The settlement of the Ryther lands on Lucy and her issue is
characteristic of a jointure, an increasingly preferred method of
marrying off daughters without reducing the family estate by the end
of the thirteenth century. A sum of money passed hands as the bride's
marriage portion, and in return there was a settlement of the groom's
lands on her for life. The jointure also protected the issue of the
marriage from claims by other children of the husband from earlier or
later marriages. Most importantly if the husband died leaving a widow
and underage children, the lord did not have wardship of that land.

John de Ros must have been related to Lucy in some way. Usually the
principals of a marriage jointure were the father or brother providing
dowry, but in this case it is possible that being a secondary marriage
it was only a small one, and with Lucy's youth, William Rither was
more interested in her Audley dower. Chronology goes against Lucy
being daughter of John, but she may certainly have been a younger
daughter of Robert de Ros and Isabel D'Aubigny who were married around
1244. We would expect them to have had a daughter called Lucy, named
after Robert's mother. At a guess it is possible that John and
Alexander were clerics and did not expect to leave heirs. The
reversion to them on the death of William in the event of lack of
heirs would represent a refund of the marriage portion, with the lands
ultimately passing to William's right heirs after their death.

As it happens, the Ryther lands did pass down William's direct line,
so the fine clearly served its primary intent. Notably, while
Scarcroft and Ryther descended with his heirs, there is no mention of
Gildersdale in the 1491 inquisition for Robert Ryther, so it appears
to have passed out of the family in the intervening 211 years.

Cheers

Rosie

Gjest

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mar 2007 06:32:02

In a message dated 3/22/2007 10:27:04 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

If Abigail Pate and Sir Thomas Smith Bart are married before 1661, why
should that reduce the Cecil numbers, and how have you attached a few
hundred people to this same Thomas Smith?

In the Complete Baronetage Volume III page 112 it is given they were married
_in or before 1659_

I have no children at all for this couple. The Complete Baronetage only
gives he died without sons and was succeeded as Baronet by a nephew.


I use 1660 as my cutoff year for this project.
It reduces the Cecil numbers for the Smith family. I had already given them
various numbers but I did *not* have the marriage of Abigail Pate. That
marriage then reduces the steps between Richard Cecil and various Smiths, who
lie behind and beside this Thomas.

Will Johnson



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Gjest

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mar 2007 06:36:02

Oooo lookie what I just found, now it gets colorful
"In July 1616 nine witches of Husbands Bosworth were executed on the same
day at Leicester gaol for being implicated in the bewitching of the son of
Erasmus Smith, Lord of the Manor of Bosworth"

Will Johnson



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Leo van de Pas

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 23 mar 2007 06:39:15

I don't like cut-off dates :-) I have an issue of a Dutch magazine which is completely dedicated to (roughly translated) The descendants of Juliana of Stolberg until the year of the Peace of Munster. That year was 1648 and as a result having most families complete, those that have children born after 1648 are not complete.

But now we must assume the marriage was in or before 1659 could one Smith child have to be included? :-) I presume that child to be a girl or at the most a son who died in childhood.

With best wishes
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
Cc: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family


In a message dated 3/22/2007 10:27:04 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
If Abigail Pate and Sir Thomas Smith Bart are married before 1661, why
should that reduce the Cecil numbers, and how have you attached a few
hundred people to this same Thomas Smith?

In the Complete Baronetage Volume III page 112 it is given they were married
_in or before 1659_

I have no children at all for this couple. The Complete Baronetage only
gives he died without sons and was succeeded as Baronet by a nephew.
I use 1660 as my cutoff year for this project.
It reduces the Cecil numbers for the Smith family. I had already given them various numbers but I did *not* have the marriage of Abigail Pate. That marriage then reduces the steps between Richard Cecil and various Smiths, who lie behind and beside this Thomas.

Will Johnson





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Leo van de Pas

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 23 mar 2007 06:40:23

Which son? It makes it colourful indeed :-)
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: WJhonson@aol.com ; leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
Cc: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family


Oooo lookie what I just found, now it gets colorful
"In July 1616 nine witches of Husbands Bosworth were executed on the same day at Leicester gaol for being implicated in the bewitching of the son of Erasmus Smith, Lord of the Manor of Bosworth"

Will Johnson





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mar 2007 06:49:01

The snippet does not name the son but claims
*A full transcript of the letters is published in "History and Antiquities
of Leicestershire" Vol. II, pt.II, p.471 by John Nichols.

Apparently the child had epilepsy or something similar and so ten *witches*
were hanged over it. The father Erasmus died later that same year (1616)
(probably as divine punishment) :)

Will




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John P. Ravilious

Re: Lucy Ros, wife of Robert Plumpton--CP Correction?

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 23 mar 2007 11:43:31

Dear Rosie,

Many thanks for that excellent post!

I would agree, given the known chronology of the family of Sir
Robert de Ros and Isabel d'Aubigny, and that of Henry de Audley, Lucy
de Ros (wife of Henry de Audley, 2ndly William [de] Ryther) must have
been a sister of John de Ros, and daughter of the aforementioned Sir
Robert and Isabel. Some slight added support might be drawn from the
heir of William Ryther and Lucy being their son, Sir Robert Ryther
(evidently named for his maternal grandfather).

Good show!

John



On Mar 23, 1:20 am, "Rosie Bevan" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Following Robert Forrest's interesting post (it would be good to see
the deeds posted) it is appropriate to post some more details about
the identity of the other Lucy de Ros, which was discussed in the
thread "Lucy (de Ros ?) de Audley, wife of Sir William de Ryther" in
January. The origin of the statement that Lucy was the daughter of
John, son of Robert de Ros of Helmsley, is an interpretation of a 1280
fine. Hopefully it might clarify the position as to the identity of
Lucy. It certainly gives us a previously unknown son of Robert de Ros
named Alexander.

The following comes from F.H. Slingsby (ed.). Feet of Fines for the
County of York from 1272-1300. Yorkshire Archaeological Society, 1956.
(Y.A.S.Record Series, vol. CXXI), the first of two consecutive fines
dealing with the Ryther properties, the abstracts of which are given
below. The date of the first one is January 14 1280.

"28.York. Morrow of Hil. 8 Edw I. Before the same. Between John, son
of Robert de Ros of Hamelak, quer., and William de Rither, deforc., of
the manors of Rither, Schardecroft, Gyldhusum' and the advowson of
Rither church. Covenant. John's right as of William's gift. John and
his heirs to hold of the chief lords. William and his heirs to
warrant. For a sore sparrowhawk."

This feoffment was the first stage of a settlement. The second fine as
given by John took place very soon after, on February 2 1280.

' 54. York. Morrow of Cand. Before the same. Between William de
Ryther, quer., and John de Ros, deforc., of the manors of Ryther,
Scarthecroft and Gildehus' with the advowson of Ryther church.
Covenant. John's right. William and Lucy his wife and the heirs of
Lucy's body to hold of the chief lords with remainder to William and
reversion after William's death to John and the heirs of his body with
remainders to Alexander, John's brother, and the heirs of his body and
to William's next heirs. '

The two fines had a threefold purpose - feoffment, marriage jointure,
and protection against wardship of the lands in case of a minority.
That Gildersdale was of the fee of Ros at the time of the settlement,
there is no question - it is listed in Feudal Aids with Robert's
holding as chief lord given in the past tense, meaning its tenure was
recorded just after his decease in 1285. Its two carucates had
descended to the Ros family via the Trussebuts, with William de Ros
inheriting it on the death of his aunt Agatha in 1247. It is possible
that John had been enfeoffed in this manor, but there are indications
that Rithers were tenants long before it passed into Ros posession,
and the marriage settlement shows that it was unlikely to have been
Lucy's maritagium.

The settlement of the Ryther lands on Lucy and her issue is
characteristic of a jointure, an increasingly preferred method of
marrying off daughters without reducing the family estate by the end
of the thirteenth century. A sum of money passed hands as the bride's
marriage portion, and in return there was a settlement of the groom's
lands on her for life. The jointure also protected the issue of the
marriage from claims by other children of the husband from earlier or
later marriages. Most importantly if the husband died leaving a widow
and underage children, the lord did not have wardship of that land.

John de Ros must have been related to Lucy in some way. Usually the
principals of a marriage jointure were the father or brother providing
dowry, but in this case it is possible that being a secondary marriage
it was only a small one, and with Lucy's youth, William Rither was
more interested in her Audley dower. Chronology goes against Lucy
being daughter of John, but she may certainly have been a younger
daughter of Robert de Ros and Isabel D'Aubigny who were married around
1244. We would expect them to have had a daughter called Lucy, named
after Robert's mother. At a guess it is possible that John and
Alexander were clerics and did not expect to leave heirs. The
reversion to them on the death of William in the event of lack of
heirs would represent a refund of the marriage portion, with the lands
ultimately passing to William's right heirs after their death.

As it happens, the Ryther lands did pass down William's direct line,
so the fine clearly served its primary intent. Notably, while
Scarcroft and Ryther descended with his heirs, there is no mention of
Gildersdale in the 1491 inquisition for Robert Ryther, so it appears
to have passed out of the family in the intervening 211 years.

Cheers

Rosie

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 23 mar 2007 11:59:46

No, you had it right the first time, according to Robert J. Dunkle,
"The Andrews-Cogswell-Page Bible," _The Genealogist_ [USA] 3 (1982)
45-95, at 51 (Rebecca ANDREWS died in infancy), 56 (Rebecca MACKWORTH
married Nathaniel Wharf). Indeed, an early and thorough consultation
of that article could have saved you a whole lot of time and spared
the rest of us a tedious rehearsal of well-established facts. When you
do consult this article, however, do not forget to consult David L.
Greene's addendum in the "Correspondence" section of the same volume,
pp. 263-4. Robert Charles Anderson, when preparing his biography of
Samuel Andrews for _The Great Migration Begins_ (1995), 1:55-8,
apparently did forget this.

I'll have to look at that long article sometime. Maybe you could,
just in a nutshell, give the substance of DLG's addendum?

You say my postings have been a "tedious rehearsal," etc., yet you
never post anything (hence you are not tedious, but only through a
technicality).

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 23 mar 2007 15:03:14

But one can see the sort of logic in this match, since Henry Crowne's
mother had been born a Mackworth, and Alice Roger's step-mother was
the daughter of a Mrs. Mackworth. They could both truthfully speak of
having a grandmother named Mackworth.

This should be amended to: "Henry Crowne's mother had been born a
Mackworth, and Alice Rogers' step-mother had also been born a
Mackworth." Although, is it possible that Alice was actually Rebecca
Mackworth's daughter? I think I saw someplace that Nathaniel Wharf
died in 1736 "aged over 75 years," which would push his birth back to
1661, at least. If Alice was born shortly after Nathaniel, she could
have been 14 or 15 at marriage in 1676.

Gjest

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mar 2007 16:31:02

In a message dated 3/23/2007 7:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
tim@powys.org writes:

Have you seen the Leics 1619 visitation book which has on p. 66 an
account of this family?


This Vis may be the one that is alluded to on google books but I can't seem
to find a Full View version.



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Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 23 mar 2007 17:42:22

In message of 23 Mar, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 3/23/2007 7:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
tim@powys.org writes:

Have you seen the Leics 1619 visitation book which has on p. 66 an
account of this family?


This Vis may be the one that is alluded to on google books but I can't seem
to find a Full View version.

I've put it at:

http://www.southfarm.plus.com/visitatio ... sworth.pdf

There is also an Erasmus Smith of Wicot, Leics in the Warks 1619
visitation as his dau. Lucy married John Gobert of Coventry (Warks).
Ormerod in his Cheshire vol iii, p. 662 seems to link this to the same
Erasmus Smith of Bosworth.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Sir Michael de Harcla of Hartley in Westmorland

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 mar 2007 18:42:02

I have a bit of information on the Harcla (Hartley) family since the name is often found in association with
the Viponts.
“Richard le Franceis, son of Gilbert, son of Philip, who in 1257 had a grant of free warren in
Westmoreland and Cumberland, who was the son of John le Fraunceys to whom Robert de Vipont had
confirmed the whole of Mauld’s Meaburn, married a daughter of Michael de Harcla. In 1278, the king
seised the lands of Michael de Harcla until it shall appear by what right and title Richard le Fraunceis son
and heir of Gilbert le Fraunceis married the daughter of Michael de Harcla, being then the king’s ward.”
The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland Joseph Nicholson and
Richard Burns.
“Parish of Kirkby Stephen (Hartley) The manor for a long time continued in the name of Hardclay. In the
fisrt year of the reign of king Edward the first, there was a dispute concerning the manor of Dalston I
Cumberland, between Michael de Harclay knight (father of ..Sir Andrew) plaintiff and the bishop of Carlisle
defendant; wherein the plaintiff derived his descent from Hervicius who was seized of the said manor of
Dalston in the reign of king Henry the first [1100-35] who was succeeded by his brother Robert, who was
succeeded by another brother Walter, who had a son Michael who had a son Walter who had a son
Michael who had a son William who had a son Michael the present plaintiff. In 1212, John de Harclay was
witness to Robert de Veteriponte’s grant to Shap Abbey. which John seems to have been a collateral and
not direct course of primogeniture. In like manner, to a grant of lands and wood in Brampton, by Walter de
Moreville to the said Robert de Veteriponte, one of the witnesses was John de Harclay. In the reign of
Henry the third, the grant of the advowson of the rectory of Kirkby Thore, by Adam de Kirkby Thore to the
said Robert de Vipont was attested by Michael e Hardcaly. In the 14 Ed. I [1286] in the partition of the
inheritance between the two daughters of the last Robert de V. mention is made of Michael de Hardclay
holding the manor of Hardclay (Hartley) and Smerdale. In 1322, Andrew e Harcla was created earl of
Carlisle but attained and executed, his possessions forfeited to Nevill of Raby who sold Hartley to Sir
Thomas Musgrave.” The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland. “In
1288 Nicholas de Hastings, was killed by Richard le Fraunceys [husband of a daughter of Michael de
HarclaWilliam de Harcla(Hartley), Robert de Appleby and John le Fraunceys. Found guilty of deed or as a
accomplice, many were fined and Bertin de Joneby acted as surety for Walter de Caudebek; the jury also
finding that William de Harcla (Hartley) was harboured by his father Michael de Harcla, sheriff, and John
le Fraunceys by Adam le Fraunceys, rector of Asby, after the felony but the jury deciding they were not
guilty of complicity. However, the Hasting family continued and Nicholas de Stapelton was ordered to hold
an inquisition and the prosecution continued. William de Querton (Kirketon), Adam le Fraunceys, Michael
de Harcla, Hugh de Lowther sureties for the accused. (CWAAS)
In 1288 Robert de Vipont, son of Lawrence who married an Eda, “acknowledged the manor of
Meaburnwald to be the right of Richard le Fraunceys, a quit claim to which Michael de Harcla was
witness.( Harrison’s History of Yorkshire) In 1291 Michael de Harcla held knights fees in Hartley of
Isabella de Vipont (Clifford) (CWAAS)
Hope this is helpful.
Pat

From: Tim Cartmell <inver1000@yahoo.ca
Date: 2007/03/22 Thu PM 03:10:49 EDT
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Sir Michael de Harcla of Hartley in Westmorland

Dear SGM Listers,

I am trying to find information on the early origins of the de Harcla family of Hartley in Westmorland, and
was hoping that someone may be able to provide further insight.

The following information is what I have found regarding Sir Michael de Harcla of Hartley, the father of
Sir Andrew de Harcla, earl of Carlisle.

"Michael de Harcla was the Deputy Sheriff of Westmorland in 1276 & 1277; was the Sheriff of
Cumberland 1285-1298; was the MP for Westmorland in 1301." Source, CWAAS, 'An Armorial for

Westmorland and Lonsdale,' published 1975, pg. 147.
"Was the Governor of Carlise in 1296; was Justice of the Peace in 1300; was appointed a
commissioner to perambulate the forests of the counties of Nottingham, Cumberland and Yorkshire, in

the reign of Edward I, and in 1307 he petitioned the King for reasonable allowance for the ravages and
burnings of the Scots while he was Sheriff; he died in or before 1311, his executors being Henri and
Michael de Harcla, his sons, and Patrick de Curwenne, his nephew [Curwen family of Workington]."
Source, Transactions, CWAAS, New Series, Vol. 1929, 'Sir Andrew de Harcla', pg. 99. See also, 'History of
the Ancient House of Curwen,' by JF Curwen, published 1928, pg. 45.
The aforementioned Patrick de Curwenne, Knt. (of Drigg in Cumberland) is recorded as being nephew
to Michael de Harcla, and cousin to his son, Sir Andrew de Harcla; the balance of probabilities suggest

that either Michael de Harcla's wife was a Curwen of Workington, or Sir Gilbert (Patrick?s father) de
Culwen's wife was a de Harcla of Hartley. In the book, 'Thomas Denton: Perambulation of Cumberland in
1687-1688', pg. 159, Denton stated that, "Threapland [in Torpenhow Plumland] was at first given by Alane,
the 2nd lord of this barony [Allerdale], unto the steward Ketellus; from whose discendant it came to
Michaell Hercla, father of Andrew, earle of Carlisle in Edward the 1st's time."
My specific queries to anyone who may have knowledge regarding the de Harcla family,

1). Who was the father of Michael de Harcla?

2). Who was the wife of Sir Michael de Harcla?

3). Who was the steward Ketellus, was he Ketel fitzEldred of Kendal & Workington? What was Ketel
the steward of......Allerdale, or Kendal, or ???

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Timothy J. Cartmell
__________________________________________________
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John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 23 mar 2007 20:06:09

Austin Spencer's information on descendants of Mrs. Jane (-----)
(Andrews) Mackworth ...

http://azaws.tripod.com/d0000/g0000000.html#I2296

wjhonson

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av wjhonson » 23 mar 2007 20:38:02

On Mar 23, 8:42 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 23 Mar, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:



In a message dated 3/23/2007 7:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
t...@powys.org writes:

Have you seen the Leics 1619 visitation book which has on p. 66 an
account of this family?

This Vis may be the one that is alluded to on google books but I can't seem
to find a Full View version.

I've put it at:

http://www.southfarm.plus.com/visitatio ... sworth.pdf

There is also an Erasmus Smith of Wicot, Leics in the Warks 1619
visitation as his dau. Lucy married John Gobert of Coventry (Warks).
Ormerod in his Cheshire vol iii, p. 662 seems to link this to the same
Erasmus Smith of Bosworth.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/

Oh yes! That's a great find because you see I'm fairly sure that mean
the same place as "Withcote or Withcock", Leics which place was in his
father's hand, "John Smith alias Harris or Hariz of Withcote" when he
died in 1546.

It's entirely possible that *at the time* Lucy married John Gobert or
Gobard (of Coventry) that he was "of Wicote" and maybe either sold it,
or it became a minor part of his estate after he acquired Bosworth.

There was an astute observer in Note and Queries who mentioned that
Henry "the silver-tongued" Smith, lecturer at St Clement's Danes was
restored to a position and that to his mind nobody had remarked that
this occurred now *after* his father was recently marrid the sister of
Lord Burghley the Secretary of State. I thought that was very
interesting.

I think it's here
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0mS9B ... #PPA152,M1
"Note and Queries" on Google Books


As to the quote that the son belonged to "Erasmus Smith" I think this
might be an error. The letter printed in full calls the son "age 12
or 13" and does not name his father as "Erasmus" but rather as "the
brother of the lecturer" or something of that sort. Obviously, the
parish register of Husbands Bosworth needs to be reviewed for the
Smith/Smyth/Smythe family to see what the possibilities are, or aren't

Although Henry Smith was *possibly* the eldest son and heir, he was
buried 4 Jul 1591 so this son, age 12 or 13 in 1616 can't be his.
Similarly one of his brothers Roger Smith alias Hariz of Husbands
Bosworth and Edmondthorpe did not die until 1655 and is called "aged
84" at this time so as to make the situation clear. So although he
*could* be the father of a 13 year old boy in 1616, he can't be the
man who "died later that year".

Obviously there must be yet *another* brother Smith, who I haven't yet
found, who was the Lord of Bosworth from perhaps 1600 to 1616
succeeding his father Erasmus who must have died by then certainly.

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av wjhonson » 23 mar 2007 21:05:45

Thanks for the ref to Vis Warks, which I've transcribed as

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... 3&vq=lucia
Vis Warks 1619 page 293, "Gobard" where they state "Nevill of Thornton
Bridge in Com Eroru, had a daughter and heir [unnamed here] who
married first a Strickland and secondly a Darcy of the house of
Menell, in Com Eborum by whom a daughter Francisca. Francisca
married, as his second wife, Peter Gobard of Picardy in France whose
Ancestors were men of great command, and possession in that country,
came into England in the time of H8 and was serjeant to the said King,
Lived in the City of London and died in 1567 or thereabout. Peter
Gobard and Frances Darcy had a son John Gobard who married Lucy,
daughter of Erasmus Smith of Witcot, Leics. John and Lucy had three
daughters: Frances married Thomas Barrington; Anna married Thomas
Leigh; Lucy married Calcot Chambrie"

"Frances and Thomas Barrington had six children:John son and heir, at
6 years in 1620; Oliver second son at 2 years; Francis; Thomas;
Francis all ob sp; Joanna "aet dimid. anni."

"Anna and Thomas Leigh had five children: Thomas Leigh son and heir,
at 6 years in 1620; John second son at 3 years; Oliver third son at 2
years; Lucia at 4 years; Margaret aet dimidiu anni"

wjhonson

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av wjhonson » 23 mar 2007 21:36:53

These people certainly loved intermarrying.
Thomas Barrington married Francis Gobard whose mother was Lucy Smith
Thomas and Francis married 21 Nov 1611 St Giles Cripplegate, London
For marriage to Frances Gobard see
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch M022431

After the 1620 Vis Warks, they had another child Lucy (1621-1691) who
would go on to marry William Cheney of Cheney Bois and Toby Tyrell,
2nd Bart (d 1671)

Francis Gobart (or Gobard) must have died between 1621 and 1624 for in
the latter year we find her husband Thomas Barrington marrying a
second time to Judith Lytton on 26 Oct 1624 "Second husband; Second
wife; Saint Mary le Bow, London"

This Judith was the dau of Sir Rowland Lytton of Knebworth (d 1616) by
his wife Anne St John (living in 1597) daughter of Oliver, 1st Lord St
John (buried 1582). Judith was the widow of George Smyth, esq of
Annables who she had married in 1614

There is probably a connection between George Smyth of Annables and
Frances Gobard's mother Lucy Smyth of Withcote but I don't yet know
what it is.

Thomas Barrington and Frances Gobard's son and heir John Barrington,
3rd Bart of Barrington Hall was born in 1614/5 "aet 6 years in 1620"
per Vis Warks. He died in 1682

On 8 Apr 1640 John married Dorothy LYTTON at Knebworth
For marriage see
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch M072571

Lytton you say, that sounds familiar. Yes because she was the niece
of that Judith Lytton who married her husband's father 16 years
earlier.

Will Johnson

Matthew Connolly

Re: Sir Michael de Harcla of Hartley in Westmorland

Legg inn av Matthew Connolly » 23 mar 2007 23:43:22

On Mar 23, 6:42 pm, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I have a bit of information on the Harcla (Hartley) family since the name is often found in association with
the Viponts.
"Richard le Franceis, son of Gilbert, son of Philip, who in 1257 had a grant of free warren in
Westmoreland and Cumberland, who was the son of John le Fraunceys to whom Robert de Vipont had
confirmed the whole of Mauld's Meaburn, married a daughter of Michael de Harcla. In 1278, the king
seised the lands of Michael de Harcla until it shall appear by what right and title Richard le Fraunceis son
and heir of Gilbert le Fraunceis married the daughter of Michael de Harcla, being then the king's ward."
The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland Joseph Nicholson and
Richard Burns.

The Richard le Franceis who married the Harcla daughter (Isabel) was
the one also known as Vernon, and was progenitor of the subsequent
Vernons of Haddon; I have him down as son of Gilbert (who married
Hawise de Vernon), son of Adam, son of Hugh, who was perhaps son of
another Adam (c.1200), in turn perhaps son of Robert (c.1180). I'll
dig out the exact reference over the weekend, but it's the CWAAS
Transactions again (a long article on the family, and a later
corrigendum).

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 24 mar 2007 01:12:12

In message of 23 Mar, "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

Thanks for the ref to Vis Warks, which I've transcribed as

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... 3&vq=lucia
Vis Warks 1619 page 293, "Gobard" where they state "Nevill of Thornton
Bridge in Com Eroru, had a daughter and heir [unnamed here] who
married first a Strickland and secondly a Darcy of the house of
Menell, in Com Eborum by whom a daughter Francisca.

I have made several attempts to obtain some confirmation of the above
and so far drawn a fair blank in terms of surviving documentation that
mentions any of these marriages and descents. The Darcy of Meinill
marriage is a complete mystery.

Can anyone do any better?

Francisca
married, as his second wife, Peter Gobard of Picardy in France whose
Ancestors were men of great command, and possession in that country,
came into England in the time of H8 and was serjeant to the said King,
Lived in the City of London and died in 1567 or thereabout. Peter
Gobard and Frances Darcy had a son John Gobard who married Lucy,
daughter of Erasmus Smith of Witcot, Leics. John and Lucy had three
daughters: Frances married Thomas Barrington; Anna married Thomas
Leigh; Lucy married Calcot Chambrie"

"Frances and Thomas Barrington had six children:John son and heir, at
6 years in 1620; Oliver second son at 2 years; Francis; Thomas;
Francis all ob sp; Joanna "aet dimid. anni."

Barringtons are my ancestors hence my interest in the Goberts and their
ancestors.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 24 mar 2007 01:22:26

In message of 23 Mar, "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

These people certainly loved intermarrying.
Thomas Barrington married Francis Gobard whose mother was Lucy Smith
Thomas and Francis married 21 Nov 1611 St Giles Cripplegate, London
For marriage to Frances Gobard see
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch M022431

After the 1620 Vis Warks, they had another child Lucy (1621-1691) who
would go on to marry William Cheney of Cheney Bois and Toby Tyrell,
2nd Bart (d 1671)

Francis Gobart (or Gobard) must have died between 1621 and 1624 for in
the latter year we find her husband Thomas Barrington marrying a
second time to Judith Lytton on 26 Oct 1624 "Second husband; Second
wife; Saint Mary le Bow, London"

This Judith was the dau of Sir Rowland Lytton of Knebworth (d 1616) by
his wife Anne St John (living in 1597) daughter of Oliver, 1st Lord St
John (buried 1582). Judith was the widow of George Smyth, esq of
Annables who she had married in 1614

There is probably a connection between George Smyth of Annables and
Frances Gobard's mother Lucy Smyth of Withcote but I don't yet know
what it is.

I've never heard that suggested and certainly I've never found a hint of
it. But I would be delighted to be corrected on this.

Thomas Barrington and Frances Gobard's son and heir John Barrington,
3rd Bart of Barrington Hall was born in 1614/5 "aet 6 years in 1620"
per Vis Warks. He died in 1682

On 8 Apr 1640 John married Dorothy LYTTON at Knebworth
For marriage see
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch M072571

Lytton you say, that sounds familiar. Yes because she was the niece
of that Judith Lytton who married her husband's father 16 years
earlier.

There was nothing wrong with that sort of marriage, much as they seem
odd at first sight.

But slowly the Barrington male line died out, first in the senior line
in 1715 and then in the junior one in 1832. They had made a habit over
several centuries of marrying heiresses, who by definition had no
brothers or only brothers with failed lines. It is my belief that these
heiresses had a genetic propensities to produce only, or mainly, girls.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Wanda Thacker

Re: FITZRICHARDS

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 24 mar 2007 04:26:02

Thank you very much for the URL. I capitalized the make shift tree in order to separate it from the rest of my post. With that said, however, I have Lupus, which causes pretty bad arthritis in my hands and occasionally, I will jot down an email right after working on some personal work in MS Word and forget to turn off the Caps lock, which I leave on for ease of pain on my hands. So, in future if I appear to be yelling, I am probably yelling, "Hey, it's going to rain today, and my hands feel like I slammed them in a car door."

Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933


Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel asfree to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995


Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885


My Scrap Journaling Blog: http://lascorpia64.wordpress.com/ Check it out for journaling prompts RECENTLY UPDATED, A LOT OF QUOTES
MY LAYOUT BLOG http://introspectivescrapping.blogspot.com/
http://wandasscrappingfreebies.blogspot.com/
POLITICAL OPINIONShttp://www.myspace.com/politica ... rrectrants



----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org>
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 6:36:54 PM
Subject: Re: FITZRICHARDS

In message of 23 Mar, Wanda Thacker <wanda_t36@yahoo.com> wrote:

WOOPSIE I POSTED WRONG THE FIRST TIME

I am researching, De Vernon, De Redvers etc and the 2 Richard
FitzGilberts. Every time I find a new resource of information, it
disagrees with the last one. The main question I have is whether or not
Richard FitzGilbert was the son of Richard II's son Godfrey or his
grandson Gilbert. The Royal and Noble database at Hull says it goes
this way:


RICHARD I THE FEARLESS
GODFREY OF BRIONNE AND EU
GILBERT CRISPIN OF BRIONNE
RICHARD FITZGILBERT DECLARE MARRIED ROHESE GIFFORD

SEVERAL OTHER SOURCES GIVE IT THIS WAY
RICHARD I
RICHARD II
GODFREY
GILBERT
RICHARD FITZGILBERT MARRIED ROHESE

MY
TENDENCY IS TO GO WITH THE HULL INFORMATION. BUT I FOUND OUT YOU CAN
LOOK UP OLD BOOKS ON GOOGLE AND FOUND SEVERAL OLD ONES THAT SAY THAT
BASICALLLY THERE WERE 2 RICHARD FITZRICHARDS. ONE THAT BELONGED TO
RICHARD I AND ONE WHO WAS THE SON OF RICHARD II.

IT'S
A REAL PROBLEM FOR ME. MY HUSBANDS FAMILY GOES BACK THROUGH THE
COURTENAYS TO THIS LINE AND THROUGH THE DE VERNONS TO THIS LINE AND I
HAVE ONE FROM SIBYL MARSHALL TO THIS LINE. RATHER THAN HAVE 3 LINES ALL
SCREWED UP, I WOULD PREFER TO HAVE A DEFINITIVE SOURCE ON THE SONS AND
GRANDSONS OF BOTH RICHARD I AND RICHARD II, SO I HAVE A HALFWAY CHANCE
OF NOT GETTING LOST IN THE RICHARDS AND BALDWINS.

WANDA THACKER

Forget the Hull database, it is unreliable and is not maintained by its
original compiler. Further its purpose is not for genealogy but for
some study of the use of databases.

Try instead Leo van de Pas' excellent site:

http://www.genealogics.org/

Leo regularly updates it to keep abreast of the latest discoveries.

Or see if you can get a look at Complete Peerage from any good library
(if the library does not have it, it is no good).


PS: The use of capitals on the internet is known as shouting; do you
really wish to shout?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Wanda Thacker

Re: FITZRICHARDS

Legg inn av Wanda Thacker » 24 mar 2007 04:36:02

O.K., Now that we have established that Godfrey was Richard I's son, do you think that the Richard FitzGilbert who founded the Earls of Devon is the same or different than the one who founded the De Clare line?

Wanda Thacker

Use what talents you possess; the woods would be verysilent if no birds sang except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke, 1852 - 1933


Birds sing after a storm; why shouldn't people feel as free to delight in whatever sunlight remains to them?
- Rose FitzgeraldKennedy, 1890 - 1995


Be as a bird perched on a frail branch that she feelsbending beneath her, still she sings away all the same,knowing she has wings.
- Victor Hugo, 1802 - 1885





----- Original Message ----
From: Peter Stewart <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:08:39 PM
Subject: Re: FITZRICHARDS


"Wanda Thacker" <wanda_t36@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.558.1174686536.3661.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
WOOPSIE I POSTED WRONG THE FIRST TIME

I am researching, De Vernon, De Redvers etc and the 2 Richard
FitzGilberts. Every time I find a new resource of information, it
disagrees with the last one. The main question I have is whether or not
Richard FitzGilbert was the son of Richard II's son Godfrey or his
grandson Gilbert. The Royal and Noble database at Hull says it goes
this way:


RICHARD I THE FEARLESS
GODFREY OF BRIONNE AND EU
GILBERT CRISPIN OF BRIONNE
RICHARD FITZGILBERT DECLARE MARRIED ROHESE GIFFORD

SEVERAL OTHER SOURCES GIVE IT THIS WAY
RICHARD I
RICHARD II
GODFREY
GILBERT
RICHARD FITZGILBERT MARRIED ROHESE

Your "several other sources" are wrong and in this instance the Hull
database is right.

Dudo tells us that Richard I fathered two sons and two daughters from
concubines after the death of his first wife, the Frankish princess Emma,
one of whom was Godfrey of Brionne. Whether or not he was actually born
after Emma's death or before is questionable (although he was certainly not
her son), but anyway he cannot have been a son of Richard II: Godfrey was
dead in or before 1015, having fathered two sons of his own ca 1000, whereas
Richard II was not born until ca 980.

Peter Stewart



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wjhonson

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av wjhonson » 24 mar 2007 05:36:26

On Mar 23, 4:22 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 23 Mar, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:





These people certainly loved intermarrying.
Thomas Barrington married Francis Gobard whose mother was Lucy Smith
Thomas and Francis married 21 Nov 1611 St Giles Cripplegate, London
For marriage to Frances Gobard see
http://www.familysearch.org- IGI - British Isles - Batch M022431

After the 1620 Vis Warks, they had another child Lucy (1621-1691) who
would go on to marry William Cheney of Cheney Bois and Toby Tyrell,
2nd Bart (d 1671)

Francis Gobart (or Gobard) must have died between 1621 and 1624 for in
the latter year we find her husband Thomas Barrington marrying a
second time to Judith Lytton on 26 Oct 1624 "Second husband; Second
wife; Saint Mary le Bow, London"

This Judith was the dau of Sir Rowland Lytton of Knebworth (d 1616) by
his wife Anne St John (living in 1597) daughter of Oliver, 1st Lord St
John (buried 1582). Judith was the widow of George Smyth, esq of
Annables who she had married in 1614

There is probably a connection between George Smyth of Annables and
Frances Gobard's mother Lucy Smyth of Withcote but I don't yet know
what it is.

I've never heard that suggested and certainly I've never found a hint of
it. But I would be delighted to be corrected on this.

Thomas Barrington and Frances Gobard's son and heir John Barrington,
3rd Bart of Barrington Hall was born in 1614/5 "aet 6 years in 1620"
per Vis Warks. He died in 1682

On 8 Apr 1640 John married Dorothy LYTTON at Knebworth
For marriage see
http://www.familysearch.org- IGI - British Isles - Batch M072571

Lytton you say, that sounds familiar. Yes because she was the niece
of that Judith Lytton who married her husband's father 16 years
earlier.

There was nothing wrong with that sort of marriage, much as they seem
odd at first sight.

But slowly the Barrington male line died out, first in the senior line
in 1715 and then in the junior one in 1832. They had made a habit over
several centuries of marrying heiresses, who by definition had no
brothers or only brothers with failed lines. It is my belief that these
heiresses had a genetic propensities to produce only, or mainly, girls.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've found a reference that this John Gobard called "of
Boresworth" [Bosworth] and "sometimes of Coventry" left a will dated
1623 where he leaves to his daughter Anna who married Thomas Legh and
some of his Legh grandchildren etc.

That's all I have on that, if someone has the will of John, it may
details his lands and possibly using that we can see if he inherited
anything from his mother called "Francisca Darcy".

Another tidbit is that a history stated that Peter Gobard, the first
to come to England, was "in the service of Henry VIII". It doesn't
say as what, or when, or for how long

John Gobard the son of Peter must have been born sometime between 1530
and 1583. Perhaps if his will or obit states his age we can pin down
when his mother could have lived.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: FITZRICHARDS

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 24 mar 2007 07:39:50

"Wanda Thacker" <wanda_t36@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.563.1174707076.3661.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
O.K., Now that we have established that Godfrey was
Richard I's son, do you think that the Richard FitzGilbert
who founded the Earls of Devon is the same or different
than the one who founded the De Clare line?

You are confusing people and names.

Godfrey of Brionne's son Count Gilbert had two sons: Richard fitz Gilbert
whose descendants were the Clare family (later earls of Gloucester and
Hertford), and Baldwin fitz Gilbert whose son Richard was sheriff of Devon.

But this Richard (died 136) had no known offspring, and the later earls of
Devon of the Redvers family were descended from another Richard (de Reviers,
not fitz Gilbert) of unknown parentage.

Peter Stewart

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 24 mar 2007 10:05:32

In message of 24 Mar, "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote:

On Mar 23, 4:22 pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 23 Mar, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:





These people certainly loved intermarrying.
Thomas Barrington married Francis Gobard whose mother was Lucy Smith
Thomas and Francis married 21 Nov 1611 St Giles Cripplegate, London
For marriage to Frances Gobard see
http://www.familysearch.org- IGI - British Isles - Batch M022431

After the 1620 Vis Warks, they had another child Lucy (1621-1691) who
would go on to marry William Cheney of Cheney Bois and Toby Tyrell,
2nd Bart (d 1671)

Francis Gobart (or Gobard) must have died between 1621 and 1624 for in
the latter year we find her husband Thomas Barrington marrying a
second time to Judith Lytton on 26 Oct 1624 "Second husband; Second
wife; Saint Mary le Bow, London"

This Judith was the dau of Sir Rowland Lytton of Knebworth (d 1616) by
his wife Anne St John (living in 1597) daughter of Oliver, 1st Lord St
John (buried 1582). Judith was the widow of George Smyth, esq of
Annables who she had married in 1614

There is probably a connection between George Smyth of Annables and
Frances Gobard's mother Lucy Smyth of Withcote but I don't yet know
what it is.

I've never heard that suggested and certainly I've never found a hint of
it. But I would be delighted to be corrected on this.

Thomas Barrington and Frances Gobard's son and heir John Barrington,
3rd Bart of Barrington Hall was born in 1614/5 "aet 6 years in 1620"
per Vis Warks. He died in 1682

On 8 Apr 1640 John married Dorothy LYTTON at Knebworth
For marriage see
http://www.familysearch.org- IGI - British Isles - Batch M072571

Lytton you say, that sounds familiar. Yes because she was the niece
of that Judith Lytton who married her husband's father 16 years
earlier.

There was nothing wrong with that sort of marriage, much as they seem
odd at first sight.

But slowly the Barrington male line died out, first in the senior line
in 1715 and then in the junior one in 1832. They had made a habit over
several centuries of marrying heiresses, who by definition had no
brothers or only brothers with failed lines. It is my belief that these
heiresses had a genetic propensities to produce only, or mainly, girls.


I've found a reference that this John Gobard called "of
Boresworth" [Bosworth] and "sometimes of Coventry" left a will dated
1623 where he leaves to his daughter Anna who married Thomas Legh and
some of his Legh grandchildren etc.

That's all I have on that, if someone has the will of John, it may
details his lands and possibly using that we can see if he inherited
anything from his mother called "Francisca Darcy".

His will is published in "Baronies of Montacute and Monthermer
Peerage Claim: The Proceedings and Evidence taken before The Committee
for Privileges", published 1929 by Eyre and Spottiswoode. It says the
will is in the PCC, so it should be online - for a fee of course.

In this he calls himself John Gobert rather than use the french name of
his father. It is two pages of close print.

I can't see any mention of lands from his mother. I can scan it but
this will not be until next week when I return.

Another tidbit is that a history stated that Peter Gobard, the first
to come to England, was "in the service of Henry VIII". It doesn't
say as what, or when, or for how long

John Gobard the son of Peter must have been born sometime between 1530
and 1583. Perhaps if his will or obit states his age we can pin down
when his mother could have lived.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

alden@mindspring.com

Re: de la Pole of Mawddwy

Legg inn av alden@mindspring.com » 24 mar 2007 16:16:21

On Mar 22, 12:25 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
I have been toiling with the help of Brice Clagett to rationalise the
descent of John Mouthe/ Mawddwy (d.1403). The result is a 20 kb file.
Would it be intolerable for me to post the current draft on SGM?
Or would people prefer me to post an abbreviated abstract, and invite
colleagues to ask me if they want to have the full file mailed to them?
MM

Would love to see this.

Doug Smith

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 24 mar 2007 16:42:51

A few stray records pertaining to Mackworth and Mitton:

W. Noel Sainsbury, ed., _Calendar of State Papers, Colonial Series,
America and West Indies, 1661-1668_ (London, 1880), p. 80:

[1662, March 11.] 255. Warrant by the Commissioners of Ferdinando
Gorges to the Marshal of the Province of Maine or his deputy. To
seize all records of a public nature as concerning any act done within
this province, being the interest and joint right of the Lord
Proprietor and the freeholders of the Province, which are
surreptitously kept away from their common officers, by which means
justice and equity cannot be administered, whether in the hands of
Edward Rishworth, Mr. Michael, Godfrey, or the executors of Roger
Gard, George Cleves, Rich. Tucker, Francis Neale, or any others, to be
delivered sealed up to Capt. Francis Champernoune, and opened and
examined at the next General Court. _Signed by Fran. Champeroune,
Hen. Jocelyn, Robt. Jordan, and Nich. Shapleigh. _Copy certified by
Francis Neale, Secretary._ ...

I wonder if "Mr. Michael" could be a mistake for "Mr. Michael
Mitton." There are no other Michaels (or even Mitchells) in the index
(at least in Maine or New Hampshire), and there is no "Michael
Godfrey" ("Godfrey" is sure to be Gifford's associate Edward Godfrey,
anyway).

_Records of the Governor and Company of the Massachusetts-Bay_, vol.
4, Part 1, p. 436:

[16 Oct. 1660.] Whereas it appeares to this Court, by severall
testimonjes of good repute, that Mr Robert Jordan did in July last,
after exercise was ended upon the Lords day in the house of Mrs.
Mackworth, in the toune of Falmouth, then & there baptize three
children of Nathaniell Wales [?], of the same toune, to the offence of
the government of this commonwealth, this Court judgeth it necessary
to beare witness agt such irregular practises, doe thereffore order
that the secretary, by letter, in the name of this Court, require him
to desist from any such practises for the future, and also that he
appeare before the next Generall Court to ansr what shall be lajd agt
him for what he hath donne for the tjme past.

vol. 5, p. 426:

[5 Dec. 1683.] In answer to the peticon of Mr Richard Wharton to the
end the petitioners former grant of one thousand acres of land granted
to him maybe made effectuall, this Court doth order, that Capt Edward
Tyng, Mr James Andrews, Mr George Peirson, Capt Bracket, & Mr Silvanus
Davis, or any three of them, lay out sajd land and make returne.



James Cummings supplied me with the following refs. from Noyes-Libby-
Davis, _Genealogical Dictionary of Maine, NH, etc._:

Nathaniel Wharfe is on p 742 of Genealogical Dictionary of Maine and
New Hampshire. It says Falmouth , wit. a Felt deed 27 November 1662.
married Rebecca, eldest daughter of Mr Arthur Mackworth. He appraised
Richard Martin's estate 23 February 1672/3. his own estate was
appraised by Robert Corbin and Jenkin Williams 23 June 1673. Rebecca
married 2nd William Rogers. 2 children Nathaniel died after 12 April
1736,over 75 years old, lived Wharf's Point m 30 January 1683,
Gloucester, MA Anna Riggs 11 children, Rebecca adm to 2nd Church
Boston in 1690 married Boston 1693 Francis Holmes, also possibly an
Arthur abt 20 in 1684.

Arthur Mackworth, Gentleman (GDMNH p 451) recieved a grant of 500
acres from Sir Ferdinando Gorges. Probably came over in 1630 with
Vines or in 1631 with Lewis nunc will given to Reverend Robert Jordan
17 August 1660. No certain identification of his wife beyond Jane. 3
daughters mentioned Rebecca Wharf, Sarah, wife of Abraham Adams and
Elizabeth Purchase. son Arthur d sp

Gjest

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 mar 2007 18:51:02

I've now found the Gobart baptisms are online in the extracted baptisms in
the IGI.
Maybe next week I'll publish the details, but contract to the claim that
they had three daughters, it shows they had four daughters and one son. There
is a later reference to "three co-heiresses" so the son must have died. The
one son Erasmus was baptised in 1588, so this pushes back the possible birth
range of John by a few years.

Will



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Gjest

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 mar 2007 19:31:02

Here are some details I've just extracted on the descent of the Manor of
Husbands Bosworth that are appropriate for this

_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Husbands_Bosworth%2C_Leices
tershire#The_Manor_House_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... anor_House)



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John Brandon

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av John Brandon » 24 mar 2007 19:39:52

+++++ >http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC03975659&id=pTMEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA2...

Vis Warks 1619 page 293, "Gobard" where they state "Nevill of Thornton

Bridge in Com Eroru, had a daughter and heir [unnamed here] who

married first a Strickland and secondly a Darcy of the house of

Menell, in Com Eborum by whom a daughter Francisca.


I have made several attempts to obtain some confirmation of the above
and so far drawn a fair blank in terms of surviving documentation that
mentions any of these marriages and descents. The Darcy of Meinill
marriage is a complete mystery.


Can anyone do any better?


Francisca
married, as his second wife, Peter Gobard of Picardy in France whose
Ancestors were men of great command, and possession in that country,
came into England in the time of H8 and was serjeant to the said King,
Lived in the City of London and died in 1567 or thereabout. Peter
Gobard and Frances Darcy had a son John Gobard who married Lucy,
daughter of Erasmus Smith of Witcot, Leics. John and Lucy had three
daughters: Frances married Thomas Barrington; Anna married Thomas
Leigh; Lucy married Calcot Chambrie"

I think this Neville-Darcy-Strickland-Gobert connection is alluded to
(and some of the lines traced) in the account of the ancestry of
Edward1 Carleton of New England in Douglas Richardson's _RPA_, which
you said you once had a copy of, but quickly gave away.

***I think Tim killfiles all my messages as a matter of course, so
someone "nice" (if he/she exists?) may want to send him a private
message.

Gjest

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 mar 2007 01:31:02

Dear John and others,
The Sainsbury reference to a Mr Michael
signing a document on 11 March 1662 may indeed be Mr Michael Mitton who was dead
however by 1 March 1662 / 3 when Elizabeth Mitton (nee Cleeves) made a deed
with her 2nd husband Peter Harvey as her witness and married him soon after.
(GDMENH p 315)\
Michael Mitton was born in about 1600 and married to Elizabeth shortly after
coming with George Cleeves in 1637. They had the following children:
Anne died 1677 married Captain Anthony Brackett
Dorcas dead by 1696 married James Andrews
Nathaniel Killed in Indian attack August of 1676, Casco Bay
Martha died 1700, Little Compton, Rhode Island married bef 8 November
1677 John Graves
Elizabeth b abt 1645- died 1736 married Lieutenant Thaddeus Clark
Mary died as an Indian captive in Canada married Thomas Brackett killed
by Indians at Casco Bay August 11, 1676. Elizabeth Harvey had deeded him her
1st husband, Michael Mitton`s homestead to him for life support of her and Peter
Harvey in 1671. his wife and children were taken to Canada, the 3 children
being ransomed. (GDMENH p 485)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA



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Austin W. Spencer

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av Austin W. Spencer » 25 mar 2007 03:30:44

On Mar 23, 5:59 am, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

First things first:

Robert Charles Anderson, when preparing his biography of
Samuel Andrews for _The Great Migration Begins_ (1995), 1:55-8,

This is incorrect; the correct reference is Robert Charles Anderson,
George F. Sanborn Jr., and Melinde Lutz Sanborn, _The Great Migration:
Immigrants to New England_, vol. 1 (1999), 56-8. Apologies to all.

I'll have to look at that long article sometime. Maybe you could,
just in a nutshell, give the substance of DLG's addendum?

Dunkle presents a copy of the original pages with a transcription.
Greene, reviewing the copy, writes that in three places on the Andrews
pages Dunkle misreads "sixt[h]" as "first." So, James Andrews was born
on 26, not 21 Feb.; Rebecca on 6, not 1 April; and Jane on 26, not 21
Feb. These emendations, he adds, bring each birth date nearer to its
corresponding baptism.

You say my postings have been a "tedious rehearsal," etc., yet you
never post anything (hence you are not tedious, but only through a
technicality).

You regularly make tedious posts, and I do not. Your materials cannot
be unfamiliar to specialists in Anglo-American genealogy, and I can
hardly blame them if they find little of value in your posts. And on
occasion (as most recently with the Andrews-Mackworth family), your
sources are utterly out of date. Spinning out misimpressions based on
an incomplete review of the literature is no way to endear oneself to
knowledgeable researchers in any field.

Austin W. Spencer

Gjest

Re: Early Welfs and Azzo II

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 mar 2007 04:46:02

In a message dated 3/24/2007 2:50:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHILLIPS18@aol.com writes:

- if you have access to this book, prove it - quote the first line of
page one - it is fortunate that i have an italian duke as a pen-pal
who has this book in his personal library and can support me on this



Well then that's settled isn't it!
I happen to have an Italian duke living under my front porch, I'll just run
out and ask him!

Will



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Peter Stewart

Re: Early Welfs and Azzo II

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 mar 2007 04:55:36

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.609.1174790596.3661.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 3/24/2007 2:50:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHILLIPS18@aol.com writes:

- if you have access to this book, prove it - quote the first line of
page one - it is fortunate that i have an italian duke as a pen-pal
who has this book in his personal library and can support me on this



Well then that's settled isn't it!
I happen to have an Italian duke living under my front porch, I'll just
run
out and ask him!

While you are at it Will, check to see if your Italian duke's private
library holdings appear on WorldCat - if not, he is clearly a liar and a
nut.

Then maybe ask him if he understands "I'm not sure of the origin of this
fiction, but I think....", in case he can explain what this means through
his compeer to the latter's penfriend.

Lastly, ensure that he is not aiming to prove himself an idiot as well as a
fool like PIPPHILLIPS18 - who can stop now, as we are convinced already.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 mar 2007 09:50:17

On 24 Mrz., 10:05, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 24 Mar, "wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

I've found a reference that this John Gobard called "of
Boresworth" [Bosworth] and "sometimes of Coventry" left a will dated
1623 where he leaves to his daughter Anna who married Thomas Legh and
some of his Legh grandchildren etc.

That's all I have on that, if someone has the will of John, it may
details his lands and possibly using that we can see if he inherited
anything from his mother called "Francisca Darcy".

His will is published in "Baronies of Montacute and Monthermer
Peerage Claim: The Proceedings and Evidence taken before The Committee
for Privileges", published 1929 by Eyre and Spottiswoode. It says the
will is in the PCC, so it should be online - for a fee of course.

Prob 11/145, proved 9 May 1625 "John Goobert or Gobert of Coventry"

MA-R

John Brandon

Re: More Cecil descents in Skipwith family

Legg inn av John Brandon » 25 mar 2007 14:18:33

This is the line I get from RPA, pp. 75-77, 134-35, 188, 348-49, 710,
732:

Edward III
John of Gaunt = Katherine Roet
Joan Beaufort = Robert Ferrers
Mary Ferrers = Ralph Neville
John Neville = Elizabeth Newmarch
Joan Neville = William Gascoigne
Margaret Gascoigne = Christopher Warde
Anne Warde = Ralph Neville
Katherine Neville = (1) Walter Strickland; (2) Henry Burgh; (3) ----
Darcy; (4) William Knyvett
Frances Darcy = Peter Gobard

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 25 mar 2007 14:45:32

Thanks, James, that was a help.

Dear John and others,
The Sainsbury reference to a Mr Michael
signing a document on 11 March 1662 may indeed be Mr Michael Mitton who was dead
however by 1 March 1662 / 3 when Elizabeth Mitton (nee Cleeves) made a deed
with her 2nd husband Peter Harvey as her witness and married him soon after.
(GDMENH p 315)\
Michael Mitton was born in about 1600 and married to Elizabeth shortly after
coming with George Cleeves in 1637. They had the following children:
Anne died 1677 married Captain Anthony Brackett
Dorcas dead by 1696 married James Andrews
Nathaniel Killed in Indian attack August of 1676, Casco Bay
Martha died 1700, Little Compton, Rhode Island married bef 8 November
1677 John Graves
Elizabeth b abt 1645- died 1736 married Lieutenant Thaddeus Clark
Mary died as an Indian captive in Canada married Thomas Brackett killed
by Indians at Casco Bay August 11, 1676. Elizabeth Harvey had deeded him her
1st husband, Michael Mitton`s homestead to him for life support of her and Peter
Harvey in 1671. his wife and children were taken to Canada, the 3 children
being ransomed. (GDMENH p 485)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

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John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 25 mar 2007 14:51:47

Dunkle presents a copy of the original pages with a transcription.
Greene, reviewing the copy, writes that in three places on the Andrews
pages Dunkle misreads "sixt[h]" as "first." So, James Andrews was born
on 26, not 21 Feb.; Rebecca on 6, not 1 April; and Jane on 26, not 21
Feb. These emendations, he adds, bring each birth date nearer to its
corresponding baptism.

Thank you.

You regularly make tedious posts, and I do not. Your materials cannot
be unfamiliar to specialists in Anglo-American genealogy, and I can
hardly blame them if they find little of value in your posts. And on
occasion (as most recently with the Andrews-Mackworth family), your
sources are utterly out of date. Spinning out misimpressions based on
an incomplete review of the literature is no way to endear oneself to
knowledgeable researchers in any field.

As one of the Elizabethans said, "Whosoe hath not ventured hath never
lost; nor gained neither."

Gjest

Re: Early Welfs and Azzo II

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 mar 2007 22:57:38

who is "we", are your presuming again to speak for all SGM readers?
so, when cornered you resort to insults; a tactic I have seen before.
my, I did not realize that I was engaging such giddy imbeciles as
Peter Stewart and Will Johnson. I don't think I have ever encountered
such buffoonery before. nothing constructive can come of this, so I
will leave you two clowns to your own self-delusions that you actually
matter. if, there is anyone out there that would like to discuss the
Este ancestry in a civilized manner I would welcome your input.

pip phillips

Peter Stewart

Re: Early Welfs and Azzo II

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 25 mar 2007 23:31:06

<PIPPHILLIPS18@AOL.com> wrote in message
news:1174859857.995622.62160@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
who is "we", are your presuming again to speak for all SGM readers?
so, when cornered you resort to insults; a tactic I have seen before.
my, I did not realize that I was engaging such giddy imbeciles as
Peter Stewart and Will Johnson. I don't think I have ever encountered
such buffoonery before. nothing constructive can come of this, so I
will leave you two clowns to your own self-delusions that you actually
matter. if, there is anyone out there that would like to discuss the
Este ancestry in a civilized manner I would welcome your input.

My "We" encompassed any & all sensible readers of this thread.

The first insults in it were demonstrably from YOU - telling me I was not
fit for polite society and then that I am "nuts".

What you misperceive as insults from me before these gratuitous attacks were
just trenchant comments on the rubbish that you had posted, not personal
remarks.

You haven't "cornered" anyone but yourself.

Peter Stewart

Tim Cartmell

Re: Diarmait MacDonnchada MacMurchada [c. 1110-1171], "King

Legg inn av Tim Cartmell » 26 mar 2007 01:01:02

As to quote Mel Brooks in 'History of the World', "It's good to be the king.."


----- Original Message ----
From: D. Spencer Hines <poguemidden@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 1:15:26 PM
Subject: Diarmait MacDonnchada MacMurchada [c. 1110-1171], "King of Leinster" - Good Man -- Charming Rascal


Great-Grandfather Diarmait MacDonnchada MacMurchada was a charming rascal.

Anyone descended from Isabel de Clare [c. 1174-1220], Countess Strigoil is
descended from Diarmait MacDonnchada MacMurchada.

[Suo jure Countess of Pembroke. Europäische Stammtafeln, ed. Schwennicke,
n.s. III:156).]

Do I have his name right in the subject line and above?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--------------------------------------------------

"Vaughan Sanders" <vjs@jamie-san.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eu5saj$gnk$1$830fa17d@news.demon.co.uk...

The Normans could never subdue Wales, Henry II sent his Norman
Marcher Lords into Ireland because they were becoming a bit
rebellious with the Welsh.

Strongbow went to Ireland off his own bat. To avoid a repetition of the
Marcher problem Henry II sent royal troops to support him in exchange
for full homage.

Dermot MacMurchada had approached Henry II for permission to recruit the
Marcher Lords before he approached Strongbow.
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Acceded: 1126 or 1135?

From: ""Leo van de Pas"" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:47 AM

Subject: Diarmaid Mac Murrough

| I understand he was born in 1100 and died 1 January 1171 at Ferns, county
| Wexford.

| Then I found a description how in 1132 he burned down the Abbey of
| Kildare, raped the Abbess and became king of Leinster.

| Then about 1167 "having been deposed" he asks Henry II of England for
| support, Richard de Clare 'Strongbow' comes and marries Diarmaid's
| daughter.

| Is there anything more known about him? I understand he was deposed
| because he had helped himself to the wife of another Irish king (which
| one?).

| Can anyone add to the life of Diarmaid?

| Many thanks.

| Leo van de Pas

| Canberra, Australia

From: <Nichol_storm@yahoo.com>

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:03 AM

Subject: Re: Diarmaid Mac Murrough

| The woman he made off with was none other than Devorgilla, the wife of
| Tiernan O'Rourke.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

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Gjest

Re: Early Welfs and Azzo II

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 mar 2007 01:41:02

In a message dated 3/25/2007 3:00:38 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHILLIPS18@aol.com writes:

Peter Stewart and Will Johnson. I don't think I have ever encountered
such buffoonery before. nothing constructive can come of this, so I
will leave you two clowns to your own self-delusions that you actually
matter. if, there is anyone out there that would like to discuss the
Este ancestry in a civilized manner


Maybe that Italian Count you have hiding in your pocket. I'm sure he has
some sort of family manuscript passed down for 800 years but never before
published that could tie your line into a descent from Dagobert or Claudius or
Noah or something.

Will Johnson



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the_verminator@comcast.ne

Re: Early Welfs and Azzo II

Legg inn av the_verminator@comcast.ne » 26 mar 2007 03:21:52

On Mar 25, 6:38 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Maybe that Italian Count you have hiding in your pocket. I'm sure he has
some sort of family manuscript passed down for 800 years but never before
published that could tie your line into a descent from Dagobert or Claudius or
Noah or something.

Will Johnson

Now really Will!

Everyone knows that if you can connect to Claudius you have a direct
line back to Noah !
;)

Of course, Dagobert's wife is also a descendant of Noah's sister.....

Austin W. Spencer

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av Austin W. Spencer » 26 mar 2007 04:54:23

On Mar 25, 9:51 am, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

As one of the Elizabethans said, "Whosoe hath not ventured hath never
lost; nor gained neither."

Oh, it's not that I'm not "venturesome;" I'm just not ordinarily
qualified to comment on English origins or medieval studies in
general. And if I were, I certainly would not direct all my
communications to this forum. I would want to put my work in some
journal where interested researchers were likely to read it. Your oft-
announced decision not to pursue more prestigious venues for the
publication of your findings is counterintuitive, to say the least.

Austin W. Spencer

Peter Stewart

Re: Early Welfs and Azzo II

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 26 mar 2007 05:28:21

On Mar 26, 12:21 pm, "the_vermina...@comcast.net"
<the_vermina...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Mar 25, 6:38 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

Maybe that Italian Count you have hiding in your pocket. I'm sure he has
some sort of family manuscript passed down for 800 years but never before
published that could tie your line into a descent from Dagobert or Claudius or
Noah or something.

Will Johnson

Now really Will!

Everyone knows that if you can connect to Claudius you have a direct
line back to Noah !
;)

Of course, Dagobert's wife is also a descendant of Noah's sister.....

Thank you for the elucidations - I wish I could afford to keep my own
Italian duke to verify these ancient lineages, but I have heard they
are almost impossible to house train and I won't risk my carpets.

As far as the Phillips person is concerned, we are treading on the
toes of necessity - he/she needs to have the pip with Will and me as
an excuse for not admitting that a male line of 23 generations over
1,000+ years is absurd, and also to avoid telling the newsgroup what
pedigree Pigna did actually give for the Estensi if not the fictitious
one that I supposed (and, for want of ducal proof, still suppose).

Peter Stewart

Matthew Connolly

Re: Sir Michael de Harcla of Hartley in Westmorland

Legg inn av Matthew Connolly » 26 mar 2007 08:21:28

On Mar 24, 12:43 am, "Matthew Connolly" <mvernonconno...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
On Mar 23, 6:42 pm, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

I have a bit of information on the Harcla (Hartley) family since the name is often found in association with
the Viponts.
"Richard le Franceis, son of Gilbert, son of Philip, who in 1257 had a grant of free warren in
Westmoreland and Cumberland, who was the son of John le Fraunceys to whom Robert de Vipont had
confirmed the whole of Mauld's Meaburn, married a daughter of Michael de Harcla. In 1278, the king
seised the lands of Michael de Harcla until it shall appear by what right and title Richard le Fraunceis son
and heir of Gilbert le Fraunceis married the daughter of Michael de Harcla, being then the king's ward."
The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland Joseph Nicholson and
Richard Burns.

The Richard le Franceis who married the Harcla daughter (Isabel) was
the one also known as Vernon, and was progenitor of the subsequent
Vernons of Haddon; I have him down as son of Gilbert (who married
Hawise de Vernon), son of Adam, son of Hugh, who was perhaps son of
another Adam (c.1200), in turn perhaps son of Robert (c.1180). I'll
dig out the exact reference over the weekend, but it's the CWAAS
Transactions again (a long article on the family, and a later
corrigendum).

Trans. Cumberland & Westmorland A & AS New Series vol XII (1912) for
Rev FW Ragg's long article 'Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de Veteripont,
le Franceys and de Vernon'; chart p.393 summarises as I stated above
but with Gilbert as son of John le Fraunceys, baron of exchequer (d.
1267). Trans CWAAS NS XVI 167-8 corrects this to make Gilbert son of
Adam (and nephew of John) in light of a recently rediscovered deed.



Gjest

Re: Re: Sir Michael de Harcla of Hartley in Westmorland

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 mar 2007 20:35:19

Matthew and Tim,

I searched archives for the lengthy discussion the list had in 2003 concerning Harcla. I believe you noted that there was not a Phillip. Have you concluded that Gilbert was the son of John (as appears below)?

I have an interest in the Harcla-Hartley family in two avenues of research. First, what is the very real connection between Harcla and Vipont and secondly, what connection is there in the family Harcla-Hartley and the ancient family of Hartley in Lancashire?

Maude de Morville, wife of William Vipont, appears to have granted her son Ivo much of her inheritance. Ivo's children were,Robert, Lawrence, Nicholas, Joan and Jania. Ivo's heirs are difficult to discern. Nevertheless, in descent sources confirm a continues relationship with the Cliffords, Staplitons, Musgraves, Lancasters, Blencow, Penreth, Daubeney and Harcla among others.

In 1243 Joan Vipont, daughter of Ivo sued John le Fraunceys concerning trespass in Meaburn. in 1247
Robert de V. son of Ivo and grandson of Maud de Morville granted the manor of Mauld’s Meaburn to John le Fraunceys, son of Hugh that he hold to him and his heirs, rendering yearly for all services one pound of cumin (This payment was to Ivo; But there were other services. John le Fraunceys granted that Johan, daughter of Ivo should retain lands and tenements granted by her father,(The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland.. )

In 1277/8 Lawrence de V. , brother to Robert, brought an assize of mort d’ ancestor against Gilbert le Fraunceys [dead], son of John, claiming that he had wrongfully entered on possession of one messuage, 97 acres of land and 20 acres meadow and the moiety of a mill in Maulds Meaburn. (Ragg). Who might the ancestor have been? Ivo had married Sybil ? and Isabel de Lancastre. I do not have a marriage for his son Robert but, Nicholas married his cousin Annabella Vipont and Lawrence married an Eda.

In 1288, Robert, son and heir of Lawrence de Veteripont...have quit claimed for me and my heirs to Sir Richard Fraunceys...whole right and claim which I had or in any way could have inn the manor of Meaburn Mauld....so that neither I nor my heirs nor any one in our name can for the future have or seek for any right or claim in any part of the same manor with its belongings. Wits: (among others)Michael de Harcla, Robert de Morvylle, Hugh de Louthir, Henry de Stavely. Wynandeswath. (“Mauld’s Meaburn, and Le Fraunceys and de Hastings”.)

Ca, 1301 Idoine de Leyburn [Idonea de V. ii], as coheir of Robert de Vipont, Lord of Westmoreland (and cousin to the line of Ivo), had as her ward, Thomas de Musgrave, son of Richard de Musgrave [d. by 1301] and his wife Christian. This Thomas, of age by 1307, when he was a commissioner to send men to Carlisle. He married ca. 1301 before he was of age, Sarah, sister to Sir Andrew de Harcla of Hartley Castle, Earl of Carlisle who died 1314. Sarah m. 2) Robert de Leyburn, sheriff of Lancashire in 1322 and 1326. CP IX.

The Vipont-Musgrave connection remained well into the 17th c. The Musgraves of Johnby Hall obtained the manor through the heiress of Stapelton of Edenhall (Margaret Vipont). William Musgrave died at Johnby in 1609.

Although the 2003 discussion seemed to dismiss the marriage of Richard le Fraunceys Vernon to Margaret Vipont, Is it not possible that there is a Vipont marriage in all this?

Thank you for your observations,
Pat

From: "Matthew Connolly" <mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk
Date: 2007/03/26 Mon AM 03:21:28 EDT> To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Sir Michael de Harcla of Hartley in Westmorland
On Mar 24, 12:43 am, "Matthew Connolly" <mvernonconno...@yahoo.co.uk
wrote:
On Mar 23, 6:42 pm, <pajun...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

I have a bit of information on the Harcla (Hartley) family since the name is often found in association with
the Viponts.
"Richard le Franceis, son of Gilbert, son of Philip, who in 1257 had a grant of free warren in
Westmoreland and Cumberland, who was the son of John le Fraunceys to whom Robert de Vipont had
confirmed the whole of Mauld's Meaburn, married a daughter of Michael de Harcla. In 1278, the king
seised the lands of Michael de Harcla until it shall appear by what right and title Richard le Fraunceis son
and heir of Gilbert le Fraunceis married the daughter of Michael de Harcla, being then the king's ward."

The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland Joseph Nicholson and
Richard Burns.


The Richard le Franceis whoIn married the Harcla daughter (Isabel) was
the one also known as Vernon, and was progenitor of the subsequent
Vernons of Haddon; I have him down as son of Gilbert (who married
Hawise de Vernon), son of Adam, son of Hugh, who was perhaps son of
another Adam (c.1200), in turn perhaps son of Robert (c.1180). I'll
dig out the exact reference over the weekend, but it's the CWAAS> > Transactions again (a long article on the family, and a later
corrigendum).

Trans. Cumberland & Westmorland A & AS New Series vol XII (1912) for
Rev FW Ragg's long article 'Maud's Meaburn and Newby: de Veteripont,
le Franceys and de Vernon'; chart p.393 summarises as I stated above
but with Gilbert as son of John le Fraunceys, baron of exchequer (d.
1267). Trans CWAAS NS XVI 167-8 corrects this to make Gilbert son of
Adam (and nephew of John) in light of a recently rediscovered deed.


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John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 mar 2007 22:24:10

"The Cort thinketh not meete to write to ye eastward about Mr Cleaves,
according to his desire."

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0uAK7 ... d#PPA41,M1

John Higgins

Re: Ancestors of Katharina Schneiss von Grenzau

Legg inn av John Higgins » 27 mar 2007 19:19:56

Are you sure that Katharina Schneiss von Grenzau is in fact an ancestor of
the Battenberg/Mountbatten family? The two databases you cite are in
conflict on at least one point in this descent: the parentage of Gertrud
von Calenberg, wife of Johann Adrian von Dornberg. The second of your two
cited databases says that Burkhard von Calenberg was the brother, not the
father, of Gertrud, and it gives some (indirect) citations for this. The
first database indicates doubt as to whether Burkhard should be included in
Gertrud's ancestry, but cites no sources.

Two of the genealogists referenced by the second database, José Verheecke
and Bert Kamp, are occasional contributors to this group. If they're
following this perhaps they can add information on the matter.

In any event, the parents of Katharina Schneiss von Grenzau arer shown in
Schwennicke's ESNF 12:11 as Johann Schneiss von Grenzau and Guta von
Kaltenborn. No further ancestry is given in ESNF.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nikolai Scheuring" <nikolai_scheuring@web.de>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 1:53 AM
Subject: Ancestors of Katharina Schneiss von Grenzau


Katharina Schneiss von Grenzau is an ancestress of the family von
Battenberg/Mountbatten (and of Prince Charles and Rey Juan Carlo).
Unfortunately I found only her parents in Internet sources.

Katharina Schneiss von Grenzau (called Catharina Schneiss von Grensau at:
http://www.fabpedigree.com/s065/f107823.htm and
http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... id=I131923) m.
Kuno von Reiffenberg
Philipp von Reiffenberg m. Margarete von Draxdorf
Anna von Reiffenberg m. Friedrich von Eltz
Johanna von Eltz m. Burkhard von Calenberg
Gertrud von Calenberg m. Johann Adrian von Dornberg
Ludwig von Dornberg m. Anna von Berlepsch
Hans Kaspar von Dornberg m. Katharine Susanne von Erlach
Charlotte Sofie von Dornberg m. Georg XVII. von Riedesel zu Eisenbach
Georg XX. von Riedesel zu Eisenbach == Margarethe Kilian
Maria Franziska Riedesel m. Ignaz Hauke
Friedrich Karl Hauke m. Maria Salome Schweppenhäuser
Johann Moritz von Hauke m. Sophie de Lafontaine
Julie von Hauck m. Alexander von Hessen

descendants Battenberg/Mountbatten. Prince Charles and Rey Juan Carlos



Ahnentafel of Katharina Schneiss von Grenzau

2) Johann Schneiss von Grenzau (d. 30 Jul 1507) m.
3) Guitgen von Kaltenborn

4) Jakob Schneiss von Grenzau (d. bef. 1468) m.
5) Gutta von Cramberg (d. bef. 1477)
6) Peter von Kaltenborn m.
7) Anna Sprikast von Waldmannshausen

8) Johann Schneiss von Grenzau (1411) m.
9) ??
10) Eberhard von Cramberg (d. bef. 1439) m.
11) Margaretha von Rheinberg (1407-1409)
14) Henne Sprikast von Waldmannshausen (1430-1459) m.
15) Anna

16) Enolf Schneiss von Grenzau (1394-95) m.
17) Lyse Bernkott von Welschenengsten (1394-1409)
20) Rulmann von Cramberg (d. bef. 1379) m.
21) Ottilie von Scheidt (1367)
22) Siegfried von Rheinberg (1342-1385) m.
23) Margareta von Krummenau (1359)

32) Enolff Schneiss von Grenzau (1358-1378) m.
33) Dyligen (1366)
34) Heinrich Bernkott von Welschenengsten (1350-1398) m.
35) ??
40) Heinrich von Laurenburg/von Cramberg (d. bef. 1353) m.
41) Metze von Braunsberg
42) Eberhold von Laurenburg/von Scheidt (1347-1372) m.
43) Agnes von Bachem (1347-1367)
44) Emmerich von Rheinberg (d. bef. 1342) m.
45) Elisabeth von Frauenstein (1349)
46) Dietrich von Krummenau (d. bef. 1366) m.
47) Jutta Schenk von Liebenstein

64) Henrich Schneiss von Grenzau (1337-1358) m.
65) Irmengard (1358)
70) Ernst von Welschenengsten (1340-1348) m.
71) ??
80) Heinrich von Laurenburg (1275-1294) m.
81) ??
82) Eberhard von Braunsberg m.
83) ??
84) Eberhold von Laurenburg (1302-1311) m.
85) ??
86) Heinrich von Bachem/von Bachheim (1356) m.
87) ??
90) Siegfried von Frauenstein m.
91) Pauline Vogt von Rübenach
92) Enolf von Krummenau (d. bef. 1308) m.
93) ??

128) Heinrich Schneiss von Grenzau (d. bef. 1337) m.
129) Katharina (1337)
170) Wipert von Laurenburg (1275-1294) m.
171) ??
184) Wilhelm von Krummenau/von Staffel (1250-1288) m.
185) ??

256) Heinrich Schneiss von Grenzau (1310) m.
257) ??
368) Dietrich von Staffel (1195-1211) m.
369) ??

736) Anselm von Staffel (1195-1198) m.
737) ??

Notes:
Heinrich von Laurenburg (80) is cousin of Wipert von Laurenburg (170)

These places (Grenzau, Laurenburg, Rheinberg, Staffel, Rübenach,..) are
mainly in the area around Koblenz (Rhineland-Palatinate) and Limburg
(Hessen).


Sources:

This ahnentafel is based mainly on genealogical essays of Hellmuth Gensicke.

Bernkott von Welschenengsten: H. Gensicke in: "Nassauische Annalen", 102,
1991, p. 227
von Cramberg/von Laurenburg: H. Gensicke in: "Nassauische Annalen", 103,
1992, p. 314-316
von Krummenau/von Hadamar: H. Gensicke in: "Nassauische Annalen", 77, 1966,
p. 313
von Rheinberg: H. Gensicke in: "Nassauische Annalen", 108, 1997, p. 282/283
von Scheidt/von Laurenburg: H. Gensicke in: "Nassauische Annalen", 92, 1981,
p. 135/36
Schneiss von Grenzau: H. Gensicke in: "Nassauische Annalen", 73, 1962, p.
257/58
Sprikast von Waldmannshausen: Lutz Hatzfeld in: "Archiv für sippenforschung"
p. 304
_______________________________________________________________
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Gjest

Re: Ancestors of Katharina Schneiss von Grenzau

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 mar 2007 22:00:05

On 27 Mrz., 19:19, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Are you sure that Katharina Schneiss von Grenzau is in fact an ancestor of
the Battenberg/Mountbatten family? The two databases you cite are in
conflict on at least one point in this descent: the parentage of Gertrud
von Calenberg, wife of Johann Adrian von Dornberg. The second of your two
cited databases says that Burkhard von Calenberg was the brother, not the
father, of Gertrud, and it gives some (indirect) citations for this. The
first database indicates doubt as to whether Burkhard should be included in
Gertrud's ancestry, but cites no sources.

http://www.genealogics.org says that Gertrud von Kalenberg (sic), wife of
Johann Adrian von Doernberg (sic), was the daughter of Heidenreich von
Kalenburg by Elisabeth von Cramm, citing Paget's 1977 work on Prince
Charles's ancestry (FWIW).

Michael A-R

Gjest

Re: Margaret m William de la Pole

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mar 2007 15:20:10

On Mar 28, 3:06 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Which William de la Pole, please?
mm

Margaret Peverel married William de la Pole of Castle Ashby, son of
Sir Richard de la Pole and thus nephew of Sir William de la Pole (d
1366) of Kingston-upon-Hull.

MA-R

Gjest

Re:Margaret m William de la Pole

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mar 2007 16:11:02

Which William de la Pole, please?
mm

Gjest

Re: Latham - but really John Brandon

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mar 2007 17:41:03

Peter Stewart quoted John Brandon as saying:-
<But, frankly, I don't need the aggravation
of being attacked for every little thing I post, and I have decided to
quit the newsgroup for good (like Chris Phillips).

I would be sad if John Brandon were to quit the group. He has lately shown
a readiness to refer to interesting sources for his posts.
And by the way, I do agree with JB that it is aggravating to be attacked on
the group if one ventures to make a post. The contributors include many
serious scholars, and I tremble every time I butt in, lest I incur the wrath of
wiser and more learned posters
MM

John Brandon

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 317

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 mar 2007 17:49:12

That would be a pity John. You have often posted interesting material, and I
think many of us will miss you
MM

Well, thank you .. but it _is_ probably best I go. As Nietzsche said,
"There is a way of asking us for our reasons which makes us not only
forget our best reasons but also awakens in us a defiance of and
repugnance for reasons in general -- a way of asking which makes us
very stupid and is a trick of tyrannical people."

However, I will make one last posting (probably on Thursday or Friday)
of material from the Chancery Proceedings (James I).

Gjest

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 317

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mar 2007 17:51:03

John Brandon wrote
<snip>
I have decided to quit the newsgroup for good
<snip>
That would be a pity John. You have often posted interesting material, and I
think many of us will miss you
MM

Peter Stewart

Re: Latham - but really John Brandon

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 28 mar 2007 22:57:38

<Millerfairfield@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.49.1175096325.5576.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Peter Stewart quoted John Brandon as saying:-
But, frankly, I don't need the aggravation
of being attacked for every little thing I post, and I have decided to
quit the newsgroup for good (like Chris Phillips).

I would be sad if John Brandon were to quit the group. He has lately
shown
a readiness to refer to interesting sources for his posts.

Which particular posts of his lately were on topic for SGM? He is not under
a ban, from SGM or from the Internet - and you can always correspond with
him off-list. If you find Brandon's posts so interesting, why not read &
respond to them instead of lurking and then quoting him only indirectly
through one of mine?

And by the way, I do agree with JB that it is aggravating to be attacked
on
the group if one ventures to make a post. The contributors include many
serious scholars, and I tremble every time I butt in, lest I incur the
wrath of
wiser and more learned posters

In the context this is a truly bizarre statement. Brandon wrote "I don't
need the aggravation of being attacked for every little thing I post" - but
he has been attacked only for posting loutish, glib & malignant remarks in
some posts and for being arrogantly off-topic in most.

Do you really mean to support Brandon here & now as the victim of
"tyrannical people", as he self-pityingly suggests, in the face of Merilyn,
David and so many others whom he loutishly attacked in this newsgroup?

It is the content of posts that people react to, quite obviously, not the
mere act of posting. If you really mean to speak up for the content of
Brandon's posts, you have left it a bit late, apparently, although his
announced intention to quit has scarcely more credibility so far than his
opinions.

Peter Stewart

Leo van de Pas

Re: Latham - but really John Brandon

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 28 mar 2007 23:45:18

As far as I am concerned, John Brandon could have quit a long time ago.
Because of the viscious way he treated me, I have ignored most of his
messages for quite a long time. As I understand his "contributions" were
very much America after the medieval time frame. My interest in Americans
(up to today) started only a short while ago, but gen-medieval is not the
place for them. The way he treated Merilyn Pedrick was beyond the pale, and
indefensible. Just because he may every now and then supply interesting bits
does that make his viscious behaviour acceptable? If in his viscious attacks
there was also some genealogical information you could say "he says
something, but in an objectionable manner", but I don't think that ever
happened.
Very sad indeed.
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia



----- Original Message -----
From: <Millerfairfield@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 1:38 AM
Subject: Re: Latham - but really John Brandon


Peter Stewart quoted John Brandon as saying:-
But, frankly, I don't need the aggravation
of being attacked for every little thing I post, and I have decided to
quit the newsgroup for good (like Chris Phillips).

I would be sad if John Brandon were to quit the group. He has lately
shown
a readiness to refer to interesting sources for his posts.
And by the way, I do agree with JB that it is aggravating to be attacked
on
the group if one ventures to make a post. The contributors include many
serious scholars, and I tremble every time I butt in, lest I incur the
wrath of
wiser and more learned posters
MM






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Gjest

Re: Re: Edmund Peverel's wife

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 mar 2007 23:53:44

Tim,
May I ask if the following is the Edmund Peverell under discussion?
"1369 Edmund Peverel (Peverell) v. Robert la Zouche and Margaret his wife, a messuage, 340 acres of land,10 acres of meadow, 50 acres of pasture, 20 acres of wood, 50s. rent in [Sussex] Westhanyngfeld; to Edmund and his heirs, who undertake to pay to Robert and Margaret 10 marks yearly during the life of Margaret. " FF Sussex.
Thank you,
Pat
From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org
Date: 2007/03/28 Wed AM 09:21:44 EDT
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Edmund Peverel's wife

In message of 24 Mar, gvowles@talktalk.net wrote:

Looking at previous postings by the group it seems generally accepted
that Edmund Peverel married Elizabeth de Lisle around 1328 and they
were the parents of John (dsp) and Margaret m William de la Pole.
However I have seen in several places, including Jim Weber's rootsweb
file where he references to Faris, that Edmund was married to Isabella
Basset d of Ralph Basset of Drayton and his wife Joan de Grey. Does
anyone in the group know what lies behind this assertion?

I can't find any mention of Edmund Peverel marrying Isabella Bassett in
Faris' 'Plantagenet Ancestry', 2nd Edn. Edmund is mentioned on p. 382
but with no wife.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

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