Blount-Ayala

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Gjest

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 feb 2007 09:19:02

Will Johnson is " a little annoyed that the William who was married to
Katherine
Wentworth (who d.s.p.) doesn't seem to appear in the register at
Cople."
Will, this is because he was born in Cople parish, Westmoreland County,
Virginia.
(Cople parish was named for the old Spencer home in Bedfordshire, England)
All the best
MM

Gjest

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 feb 2007 14:27:23

On Feb 28, 9:16 am, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Will Johnson is " a little annoyed that the William who was married to
Katherine
Wentworth (who d.s.p.) doesn't seem to appear in the register at
Cople."
Will, this is because he was born in Cople parish, Westmoreland County,
Virginia.
(Cople parish was named for the old Spencer home in Bedfordshire, England)
All the best
MM

William Spenser, elder son and heir of Nicholas Spenser (and his wife
Mary Gostwick) was christened in Willington, the parish adjoining
Cople, Beds, England, which was Mary's home parish, on 20 July 1632,
with the parish register also noting a birth of 3 July 1632. His
younger brother Nicholas was christened at Cople (the one in England)
on 19 Sept 1633.

The Willington entry is taken from the IGI (controlled extract so
reliable), the Cople entry from the parish register.

Regards

David

Gjest

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 feb 2007 17:56:02

In a message dated 2/28/2007 12:48:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:

Will, this is because he was born in Cople parish, Westmoreland County,
Virginia.


Can you clarify this with a source? I don't believe it's possible.
This William was born quite early for Virginia. I'm fairly sure the family
was still in England.
Or if you believe not, could you clarify why they came to Virginia, then
went back to England for the births of the rest of their children?
Thanks
Will Johnson
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

wjhonson

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av wjhonson » 28 feb 2007 19:50:17

On Feb 27, 4:38 pm, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Notice that Helen M. Sandlin (wife of this Clarence) was aged 3+ in
the 1930 Census, thus perhaps making her (slightly) more likely to be
the wife of someone born 1922 than 1928 ...

http://www.progenealogists.com/annanico ... s/4b00.jpg



Yet note this statement that the tombstone of Anna's grandfather
Clarence Hogan claims he was born 1922, not 1928, as Wargs and others
have it:

Out of curiosity, I was tracking the line back, but am wondering about
the Hogan lineage you posted. You have the birthdate for Clarence E.
Hogan as 1928 and being born in OK. Yet the birthdate on his tombstone
in Liberty Co. (which lists him as the husband of Helen M.) is given
as 17 Feb. 1922 and that matches a Clarence Hogan born in Harris Co.,
TX per the Texas Vital Records. The 1930 census lists an 8 year old
Clarence in Houston as the son of a Luther and Vivian Hogan.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/p ... yn::ho...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks to John Brandon and Guy Perry for allowing me to post so far

http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... gene_Hogan

This shows *part* of the controversy of the "two Clarence Hogans".
I will shortly be adding John and Guy as the sources for part of this,
and then add the sources that led to this confusion, and possibly even
link Marilyn Monroe!

What an interesting trip!

Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 feb 2007 20:26:36

Interesting, although Anna's name is usually spelled "Nicole," not
"Nichole."

You mean there is still a link to Marilyn Monroe?


Thanks to John Brandon and Guy Perry for allowing me to post so far

http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... ith#Clar...

This shows *part* of the controversy of the "two Clarence Hogans".
I will shortly be adding John and Guy as the sources for part of this,
and then add the sources that led to this confusion, and possibly even
link Marilyn Monroe!

What an interesting trip!

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av wjhonson » 28 feb 2007 21:06:59

On Feb 28, 11:26 am, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Interesting, although Anna's name is usually spelled "Nicole," not
"Nichole."

You mean there is still a link to Marilyn Monroe?



Thanks to John Brandon and Guy Perry for allowing me to post so far

http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... ith#Clar...

This shows *part* of the controversy of the "two Clarence Hogans".
I will shortly be adding John and Guy as the sources for part of this,
and then add the sources that led to this confusion, and possibly even
link Marilyn Monroe!

What an interesting trip!

Will Johnson- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Only through the mythical connection, but I still like to note it. I
like to note the errors and explain them. Without that, in my
opinion, other researchers just hit that "the sources conflict" wall
and don't know how to proceed.

I had last year found a New England descent for Marilyn but never
completely sourced it. Just put it on a back burner for... sometime
later. Maybe this is that time!

I fixed the spelling of the name, thanks John.
See
http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... cole_Smith
Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av wjhonson » 28 feb 2007 21:08:01

Post script.

I should have stated that I had found a "NEW" New England descent for
Marilyn Monroe. I'm aware of the ones that have already been
published.

Will Johnson

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 feb 2007 21:15:40

I should have stated that I had found a "NEW" New England descent for
Marilyn Monroe. I'm aware of the ones that have already been
published.

Will Johnson

Which family name?

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 feb 2007 22:46:18

Do these Spencers link to the Spencers of Northants?

DSH

<david11000carca@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:1172669242.880903.230710@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

On Feb 28, 9:16 am, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Will Johnson is " a little annoyed that the William who was married to
Katherine
Wentworth (who d.s.p.) doesn't seem to appear in the register at
Cople."
Will, this is because he was born in Cople parish, Westmoreland County,
Virginia.
(Cople parish was named for the old Spencer home in Bedfordshire,
England)
All the best
MM

William Spenser, elder son and heir of Nicholas Spenser (and his wife
Mary Gostwick) was christened in Willington, the parish adjoining
Cople, Beds, England, which was Mary's home parish, on 20 July 1632,
with the parish register also noting a birth of 3 July 1632. His
younger brother Nicholas was christened at Cople (the one in England)
on 19 Sept 1633.

The Willington entry is taken from the IGI (controlled extract so
reliable), the Cople entry from the parish register.

Regards

David

John Brandon

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av John Brandon » 01 mar 2007 00:21:28

Do these Spencers link to the Spencers of Northants?

And what if they did? They still wouldn't link to ... DSH.

Post Post Colonial Boy

Re: Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av Post Post Colonial Boy » 01 mar 2007 06:10:58

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:53:03 +0100, wrecked 'em
<blew.em.to.bits@once.gov> wrote:

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:15:37 +1300, Post Post Colonial Boy
republican@email.com> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:16:53 +0100, wrecked 'em
blew.em.to.bits@once.gov> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:39:12 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ah, yes!

Cinaed mac Ailpin, Rex Pictorum...

One of my 34th Great-Grandfathers.


"Bastards & Homosexuals Seem To Have A Particular Affinity For
Genealogy"

http://tinyurl.com/2xxq48

'Nuff Said

That's just stupid...why would a homosexual be particularly interested
in geneaology? Something that they cannot directly contribute to...


Stupid? You said it. Lots of homosexual men and women throughout
history have had offspring. Being homosexual doesn't make a person
infertile.

I suppose a lesbian could just lie there and receive the semen...

Think about all those gay kings who nevertheless did their duty and
impregnated their queens to produce heirs.

So they said anyway...who knows what actually went on behind closed
doors.

PPCB

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Gjest

Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 240

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 mar 2007 10:46:02

For Gordon Kirkemo
It might be worthwhile to refer to "A History of the Castles of
Herefordshire and their Lords" by the Rev. C.J.Robinson (Longman & co, 1869).
It is browsable on line, via a proxified google book search.
Page 89 gives an account of the acquisition of Kinnersley Castle by Sir
Richard Delabere, with a brief biography, mentioning his wife Sibilla as the
heiress (wife or sister) of John de Kynardsley, whose wife was named Matilda/,
and Sir Richard's son Kynard, named for Sibyl's family, who presented to
Kynnersley in 1382.

C143/423/31 at the National Archives is of particular interest, because it
shows that in 1390 Sir Kinard owned the manors of Kinnersley and Chadnor (as
well as Dinedor). So it is highly probable that there had been a
Chadnor/Delabere marriage, or a Chadnor/Kynardsley marriage at some previous date.

Robinson's account seems convincing to me, as it accounts for the Delabere
ownership of Kinnersley castle, which could not I think have been inherited
from the Chabbenor/Chadnor family.

Court of Chancery: Common Law Pleadings, Tower Series C 44/9/11 is of
potential interest:-Parties: Rex v de la Bere Subject: Manor & castle of Eardisley
County: Heref : Common Law Pleadings, Tower Series The National Archives,
Kew Date range: 1377 - 1378.

Another promising source is :-
Court of Chancery: Six Clerks Office: Early Proceedings, Richard II to
Philip and Mary C 1/69/86
Agnes, late the wife of Walter Devereux, knight. v. Richard de la Bere:
Refusal to join with complainant in suing on a bond. . Agnes, late the wife of
Walter Devereux, knight. v. Richard de la Bere: Refusal to join with
complainant in suing on a bond. Date range: 1386 - 1486.

The Gloucestershire RO "Muniments or Rogers etc" holds the following
possibly helpful source, ref. D269/C/X16 - date: 18thc
Printed pedigree of the De La Bere family based on that of Thos. Jones of
Tregaron, 1604, with later additions (1066-618thc)

I hope the aboove may help
MM

Gjest

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 mar 2007 09:15:23

On Feb 28, 10:46 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Do these Spencers link to the Spencers of Northants?

DSH


Not that I have been able to establish, although there are trees on
Rootsweb that show a link from the Bedfordshire Spencers to the Badby,
Northants, Spencers. In the absence of any sources though, I am
dubious, and until proved otherwise regard the trees as of the wishful
thinking variety.

David Cooper

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 02 mar 2007 09:49:35

I concur.

DSH
--------------------------------

<david11000carca@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:1172823323.919722.50420@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...

On Feb 28, 10:46 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com
wrote:

Do these Spencers link to the Spencers of Northants?

DSH

Not that I have been able to establish, although there are trees on
Rootsweb that show a link from the Bedfordshire Spencers to the Badby,
Northants, Spencers. In the absence of any sources though, I am
dubious, and until proved otherwise regard the trees as of the wishful
thinking variety.

David Cooper

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 mar 2007 20:54:53

Looks like w.a.r.g.s. has updated his website accordingly.

If it can be verified that Morris Sandlin's parents were indeed Simon/
Simeon and Louisa Sandlin (as per http://www.progenealogists.com/annanico ... g02.htm#77
), the following clue may be helpful:

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/p ... ::243.html

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 mar 2007 21:23:24

Some members of this Sandlin family were apparently buried in
Texarkana Co., Arkansas ...

http://www.texark.org/cemeteries/miller ... green.html

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 mar 2007 22:19:46

The wife of Joseph Allman was apparently Margaret _Penrod_ ...

http://genforum.genealogy.com/allman/messages/905.html

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 02 mar 2007 23:48:21

The wife of Joseph Allman was apparently Margaret _Penrod_ ...

http://genforum.genealogy.com/allman/messages/905.html


There are a few mistakes in your list of those buried in the Ferguson
Cemetary. The James Allman listed should be Jonas Allman and he could
not have been born in 1844 because he is the son of Joe Allman.
Margaret Penrod Allman should also be listed but she is not. Has
something happened to her headstone? The dates for her are Sept. 15
1851 - April 9, 1926.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/tx/li ... t/tex4.txt

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 03 mar 2007 00:47:17

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/us ... -0001.html

I believe the 1880 Census shows Margaret (Penrod) Allman's father was
b. in Illinois, which may be a clue. Is Penrod originally a German
name?

Gjest

Re: More on the Reve family

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 mar 2007 18:46:02

In a message dated 3/2/2007 11:22:53 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
davidmaria@iprimus.com.au writes:

Dear John, Can you please direct me to find this link. I have a
particular interest in the Reve family of Bury St. Edmunds. Is the
coat of arms mentioned in this case?


The Court of Chivalry is on my jump age here
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Sources_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... hp/Sources)

Down near the bottom you see the link called
_Court of Chivalry 1634-1640_
(http://www.sd-editions.com/AnaServer?ch ... +start.anv)

Will Johnson
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

Louise

Re: Abbey of Bergues Saint -Winnoc -Sorry found the answer

Legg inn av Louise » 04 mar 2007 01:09:57

Sorry, I just found the answer in this article
Louise
GEN-MEDIEVAL/soc.genealogy.medieval
Who were the parents
of Gilbert de Gant?
compiled by Raymond W. Phair

Adam Whyte-Settlar

Re: Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av Adam Whyte-Settlar » 04 mar 2007 06:49:10

"wrecked 'em" <blew.em.to.bits@once.gov> wrote in message
news:og9au2125o6d712ehm06cfr9jab1qpd7al@4ax.com...

Think about all those gay kings who nevertheless did their duty and
impregnated their queens to produce heirs.

I'd really rather not if it's all the same to you.

John Brandon

Christopher Branch line for Anna Nicole?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 05 mar 2007 16:17:44

Seeing that Will Johnson has proved the link between Morris Sandlin
and his father, Simeon (ie, from the 1900 Census, Cass Co., TX) ...

http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... is_Sandlin

and adding in the following two blurbs (showing that Morris Sandlin's
mother Louisa [his father's first wife] was a dau. of William Cheatham
Huntsman; and that William Cheatham Huntsman was son of Sarah Huntsman
nee Cheatham) ...

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/p ... ::243.html

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/p ... ::244.html

we might be able to trace Anna Nicole back to Christopher Branch (of
royal descent), via this website ...

http://www.cheathamranch.net/FT/people/ ... .htm#I3183

Gjest

Re: Christopher Branch line for Anna Nicole?

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mar 2007 17:20:56

On Mar 5, 10:17 am, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Seeing that Will Johnson has proved the link between Morris Sandlin
and his father, Simeon (ie, from the 1900 Census, Cass Co., TX) ...

http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... ith#Morr...

and adding in the following two blurbs (showing that Morris Sandlin's
mother Louisa [his father's first wife] was a dau. of William Cheatham
Huntsman; and that William Cheatham Huntsman was son of Sarah Huntsman
nee Cheatham) ...

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/p ... huntsman...

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/p ... huntsman...

we might be able to trace Anna Nicole back to Christopher Branch (of
royal descent), via this website ...

http://www.cheathamranch.net/FT/people/ ... .htm#I3183

Other than Anna Nicole Smith being a wench, what does this have to do
with medieval genealogy?

John Brandon

Re: Christopher Branch line for Anna Nicole?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 05 mar 2007 17:36:52

Other than Anna Nicole Smith being a wench, what does this have to do
with medieval genealogy?

Christopher Branch was a gateway ancestor.

But if you think you will be able to curtail my posting habits by a
few snarky questions, you are sadly deceived.

Gjest

re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mar 2007 20:21:03

What is the link between *any* European royal house to the Mongols?
Someone who is a historian and amateur genealogist suggested to me that such
a link existed, I haven't yet run across it, and wonder if someone has the
brief rundown of how it goes?

Thanks
Will Johnson
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

Tony Dyer

Re: Robert FitzHarding and Robert, Earl of Gloucester

Legg inn av Tony Dyer » 05 mar 2007 22:18:03

Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 2 Mar, Tony Dyer wrote:

Hi newsgroup

This is my first post and, having read much of the archives, do so
with some trepidation...! I have recently inherited a family tree
and as it is seems very extensive am trying to prove/confirm as much
as possible rather than taking it on face value. One of the links
is to Robert fitzHarding, Merchant of Bristol (and as I am a
Bristolian myself this is of particular interest) and possibly also
to Robert, Earl of Robert (co-builder of Bristol Castle - so more
local interest!)

If you live in Bristol, you should be able to get to one of the many
good libraries there and find the ODNB (Oxford Dictionary of National
Biography) article on Robert FitzHarding. If you ask very nicely, they
may be able to give you internet access to the ODNB.


Have now done so, and now have online access. The article on Robert FitzHarding was very useful.

The lineage in the chart shows Robert fitzHarding as being the
grandson (or possibly great-grandson) of Eadnoth the Staller who
performed some Royal duties for Edward the Confessor (possibly
steward or constable?).

He was grandson but I have seen no evidence for any actions of Eadnoth.

The ODNB also had an article for Eadnoth, describing him as steward to Edward the Confessor and that he was killed at Bleadon defending Somerset from an attack by Harold's son in 1068.


also I found;

“came one of Harold's sons from Ireland with a naval force into the mouth of the Avon unawares, and plundered soon over all that quarter; whence they went to Bristol, and would have stormed the town; but the people bravely withstood them. When they could gain nothing from the town, they went to their ships with the booty which they had acquired by plunder; and then they advanced upon Somersetshire, and there went up; and Ednoth, master of the horse, fought with them; but he was there slain, and many good men on either side; and those that were left departed thence.” Anglo-Saxon Chronicle for 1068
.
In the 1140's he (Robert fitzHarding) purchased the Manor of
Bedminster from Robert the Earl of Gloucester (illegitimate son of
Henry Beauclerc?).

Confirmed in John Smyth's 'Lives of the Berkeleys', Vol I, p. 34. This
excellent series was published in 1883 by the Bristol and Gloucester
Archaeological Society and should also be in the central library in
Bristol. Robert de Caen was indeed that royal bastard.

The Manor included the marshland in the bend of
the river Avon on the southern side of the Bridge of Bristol and in
this bit of land fitzHarding established/extended? the suburb of
Redcliffe as a commercial rival to Bristol.

Robert was also given the Manor of Billeswick (and other Berkeley
lands) where he founded the Abbey of St Augustine - later Bristol
Cathedral.

Smyth says he purchased manor of Byleswicke from the earl of
Gloucester (p. 34 again) and confirms the building of the abbey (p. 35).

I now have a copy of Smyth's "Lives of the Berkeley" on my desk and will be reading it over the next few weeks with great enthusiasm - normal work allowing, of course. Thanks for that.


Meanwhiile the Norman castle of Bristol had been built by Bishop
Geoffrey of Coutance but it's keep was greatly rebuilt/extended by
Robert, Earl of Gloucester who kept every 10th stone from the keep
for the building of St James's Priory where he was later buried.

I have found no confirmation of this.

I am not a Latin reader so not sure if this is the right passage (apologies if it is completely wrong);

"Ex Libello de Antiquitate Theokeberiensis Monasterii" says "Hic Robertus construxit castrum de Bristolle et dedit decimum quemque lapidem castri ad fabricam capellae S. Mariae juxta monaster. S. Jacobi Bristolliae." Leland, Itin, vi. 79

Now, I will be grateful if anybody can point out any mistake I have
made in the above passage (I have just purchased a large pad and
some new pens!) but what I am really asking is the following;

There is a legend/myth in my family that just as my grandfather was
baptised at St James and my grandmother was baptised at St
Augustine's and married at St Mary Redcliffe, that a child or
grandchild of Robert fitzHarding (founder of St Augustine) and a
child or grandchild of Robert, Earl of Gloucester (founder of St
James) were also married at St Mary Redcliffe. I have not been able
to find any proof of a relationship between the familys of the
fitzHarding de Berkeleys and Robert Earl of Gloucester so am willing
to accept that this is just an old wives tale that modern genealogy
is about to destroy once and forever. I would be interested if
anybody knows anything different....

Haven't found it. This is the nearest I have found:

Robert de Caen
|
Maud
|
Hugh de Kivelioc
earl of Chester
|
Agnes de Kivelioc
|
William de Ferrers
earl of Derby
|
Joan de Ferrers
|
Maurice Berkeley
2nd baron by writ

OR

Robert de Caen
|
Robt FitzHarding Maud
|
Maurice FitzRobert Hugh de Kivelioc
| |
Maud Berkeley Amice de Kivelioc
| |
Elis Giffard Bertred Mainwaring
| |
John Giffard James Audley
| |
Catherine Giffard = Nicholas Audley
|
Nicholas de Audley

Any more offers?

I've had a look at the lineages and the names all turn up in the family tree I've been given as well (some more than once), so I think the more I read and find out the more I will learn...

Thanks again for the assistance.


Tony D


---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes.

taf

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av taf » 05 mar 2007 22:25:48

On Mar 5, 12:15 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
What is the link between *any* European royal house to the Mongols?
Someone who is a historian and amateur genealogist suggested to me that such
a link existed, I haven't yet run across it, and wonder if someone has the
brief rundown of how it goes?

I have seen two sets of claims. Basarab, the founder of the family
which bore his name, was son of Thocomerius of Wallachia. This appears
to be a rendering of the Cuman name Toktomer, and there was a Mongol
princeling of this name lining in the Crimea at the time. This has
led to the suggestion (I specifically recall it from Montcrieffe) that
the Basarabs were of Mongol origin. I also recall there being some
Russian nobility that married Mongols, and it has been claimed that
Ivan the Terrible descended from them, but I don't recall the details.

It is perhaps relevant (and not coincidental) that these claims would
trace the two (perhaps) most notorious European potentates (bearing in
mind that Vlad the Impaler was a Basarab) from Mongols. Some of the
accounts I have seen are explicit in the suggestion that it is the
descent from Mongols that explain these Men Behaving Badly, which
smacks of racism. This is as an aside, because the genealogy is what
it is, and whatever metainterpretation people draw from it have no
bearing on the facts, one way or the other.

taf

Leo van de Pas

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 05 mar 2007 22:51:18

Does anyone have access to Anthony Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress"? I am
not sure but I think there is a vertical linkage, starting with a king of
England and his brother married someone and her brother had a mistress
sister of....... and so ending up with (I think) Genghis Khan.

Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:15 AM
Subject: re: European link to the Mongols


What is the link between *any* European royal house to the Mongols?
Someone who is a historian and amateur genealogist suggested to me that
such
a link existed, I haven't yet run across it, and wonder if someone has the
brief rundown of how it goes?

Thanks
Will Johnson
BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mar 2007 23:02:59

I have seen two sets of claims. Basarab, the founder of the family
which bore his name, was son of Thocomerius of Wallachia. This appears
to be a rendering of the Cuman name Toktomer, and there was a Mongol
princeling of this name lining in the Crimea at the time. This has
led to the suggestion (I specifically recall it from Montcrieffe)

Moncrieffe (HRH, page 84): "... Kutyen Khan took refuge in Hungary ...
and married his daughter to King Bela IV's son, the future King
Stephen V ..."

Moncreiffe (HRH, page 101): "... There seems no reason, therefore, to
doubt that 'Thocomerius', father of Basarab the Great, Prince of
Valachia 1310-38, was one of two contemporary Tatar princes both named
Toktemir in that area, both great-grandsons of prince Juchi, first
Khan of the Golden Horde (died 1224) ..."

I also recall there being some
Russian nobility that married Mongols, and it has been claimed that
Ivan the Terrible descended from them

Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 29): "... the grand
prince married Yelena Glinskaya, a 23-year-old princess of Tatar
descent ... Their first child, Ivan ..."

Warnes (Chronicle of the Russian Tsars, page 44): "... Ivan announced
that he was abdicating ... Simeon Bekbulatovich, a descendant of
Genghis Khan, was enthroned as tsar ... Ivan resumed the tsardom once
the year was over, and pensioned off Simeon by making him grand prince
of Tver."

Gjest

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 mar 2007 23:05:28

On Mar 5, 9:51 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Does anyone have access to Anthony Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress"? I am
not sure but I think there is a vertical linkage, starting with a king of
England and his brother married someone and her brother had a mistress
sister of....... and so ending up with (I think) Genghis Khan.

Leo van de Pas

I think that you are right. But I borrowed it from a library decades
ago.

Peter Stewart

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 05 mar 2007 23:30:01

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.4222.1173131508.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Does anyone have access to Anthony Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress"? I am
not sure but I think there is a vertical linkage, starting with a king of
England and his brother married someone and her brother had a mistress
sister of....... and so ending up with (I think) Genghis Khan.

I don't recall this, but from memory Wagner's book has a table showing a
horizontal linkage through marriages "from the Atlantic to the Pacific",
with Henry III on one side and Kubla Khan on the other.

Peter Stewart

Dora Smith

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Dora Smith » 06 mar 2007 00:18:47

Well, the kings of I think Hungary claimed descent from Attila the Hun - but
than, that isn't what you're asking, is it?

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: re: European link to the Mongols


What is the link between *any* European royal house to the Mongols?
Someone who is a historian and amateur genealogist suggested to me that
such
a link existed, I haven't yet run across it, and wonder if someone has the
brief rundown of how it goes?

Thanks
Will Johnson
BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message




--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/699 - Release Date: 2/23/2007 1:26 PM

Don Stone

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Don Stone » 06 mar 2007 00:22:58

Peter Stewart wrote:
"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.4222.1173131508.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Does anyone have access to Anthony Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress"? I am
not sure but I think there is a vertical linkage, starting with a king of
England and his brother married someone and her brother had a mistress
sister of....... and so ending up with (I think) Genghis Khan.

I don't recall this, but from memory Wagner's book has a table showing a
horizontal linkage through marriages "from the Atlantic to the Pacific",
with Henry III on one side and Kubla Khan on the other.

This report on Wagner's Pedigree 44 (Atlantic to Pacific, 1274) is
correct. The last marriage connection on the Pacific side is Maria
(illegitimate daughter of Michael VIII Palaeologus), who married Abaka,
Ilkhan of Persia, nephew of Kubla Khan.

-- Don Stone

joseph uphoff

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av joseph uphoff » 06 mar 2007 03:40:40

taf wrote:

On Mar 5, 12:15 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

What is the link between *any* European royal house to the Mongols?
Someone who is a historian and amateur genealogist suggested to me
that such
a link existed, I haven't yet run across it, and wonder if someone
has the
brief rundown of how it goes?


I have seen two sets of claims. Basarab, the founder of the family
which bore his name, was son of Thocomerius of Wallachia. This appears
to be a rendering of the Cuman name Toktomer, and there was a Mongol
princeling of this name lining in the Crimea at the time. This has
led to the suggestion (I specifically recall it from Montcrieffe) that
the Basarabs were of Mongol origin. I also recall there being some
Russian nobility that married Mongols, and it has been claimed that
Ivan the Terrible descended from them, but I don't recall the details.

One of Ivan's ancestors was a Mongol named Mamai, who was a khan of

the Golden Horde. However, he seems to have been a usurper who did
not descend from Genghis' family

Doug McDonald

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 06 mar 2007 14:31:29

Peter Stewart wrote:
"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.4222.1173131508.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Does anyone have access to Anthony Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress"? I am
not sure but I think there is a vertical linkage, starting with a king of
England and his brother married someone and her brother had a mistress
sister of....... and so ending up with (I think) Genghis Khan.

I don't recall this, but from memory Wagner's book has a table showing a
horizontal linkage through marriages "from the Atlantic to the Pacific",
with Henry III on one side and Kubla Khan on the other.

Peter Stewart



Sounds interesting. Our library has this book on the stacks,
I will get it and report as soon as they open up today.

Doug McDonald

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Report: Prince William WILL Marry Kate Middleton -- MP's

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 06 mar 2007 22:07:48

Capital, If True!

Another potential DELIGHTFUL British Feeding Frenzy.

Does Kate have any Royal/Noble Ancestry -- at least Edward III and Philippa
de Hainault?

She's a bit "chubby" and "beefy" isn't she?

Too much Beef, Champagne, Claret and Yorkshire Pudding?

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
-----------------------------------------------------------------

William WILL get married to Kate, MPs told

Daily Mail

Prince William and Kate Middleton will get married, MPs have been told.

A House of Commons select committee has heard that William, 24, had spoken
openly about his plans.

Respected royal photographer Arthur Edwards - who has been honoured with the
MBE by the Queen - told the MPs: "She's in love with Prince William. I'm
sure one day they'll get married.

"I have talked to him about that and he's made it clear... he wants to get
married."

Clarence House today refused to comment on his plans to marry, saying:
"Prince William has no plans to get engaged."

The couple met at St Andrews University in September 2001 when they both
studied History of Art.

At the time Miss Middleton was dating another student, Rupert Finch, but was
sharing a student house with the prince.

They began dating, in secret, around Christmas 2003. Their relationship
first became public when they were photographed together on a ski holiday
with Prince Charles in 2004.

Since graduating the couple have holidayed together regularly and spend
weekends together at her Chelsea apartment.

Discussing the alleged hounding of Miss Middleton by paparazzi on her 25th
birthday in January, Edwards told the Commons culture, media and sport
committee: "I felt very sorry for that girl. I just didn't want anything to
do with that."

Edwards also stressed that a scrum of photographers outside her London home
in the days before her birthday reminded him of the "feeding frenzy" over
Diana.

"When I saw the pictures the next day I was horrified. It does remind me of
what happened to Princess Diana and I do hope we don't make that same
mistake again here," he said.

The Commons committee was examining self-regulation of the press and called
on Edwards to give evidence.

His comments emerged during questioning by MPs about the intrusion suffered
by the Prince's girlfriend and the impact it could have on a future privacy
law.

News International chairman Les Hinton was also giving evidence to MPs and
said that the media scrum outside her home in January this year was fuelled
by speculation that they were about to get engaged.

Mr Hinton also stressed there was a feeling that "something is going to go
wrong here" when it emerged how many photographers were trying to take
shots.

wjhonson

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av wjhonson » 07 mar 2007 05:35:35

On Mar 5, 6:40 pm, joseph uphoff <noren...@nethere.com> wrote:
taf wrote:

On Mar 5, 12:15 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

What is the link between *any* European royal house to the Mongols?
Someone who is a historian and amateur genealogist suggested to me
that such
a link existed, I haven't yet run across it, and wonder if someone
has the
brief rundown of how it goes?


I have seen two sets of claims. Basarab, the founder of the family
which bore his name, was son of Thocomerius of Wallachia. This appears
to be a rendering of the Cuman name Toktomer, and there was a Mongol
princeling of this name lining in the Crimea at the time. This has
led to the suggestion (I specifically recall it from Montcrieffe) that
the Basarabs were of Mongol origin. I also recall there being some
Russian nobility that married Mongols, and it has been claimed that
Ivan the Terrible descended from them, but I don't recall the details.

One of Ivan's ancestors was a Mongol named Mamai, who was a khan of
the Golden Horde. However, he seems to have been a usurper who did
not descend from Genghis' family

Using one of the suggestions, I've made a table showing how Prince
William descends from Genghis Khan here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... nghis_Khan

Hopefully I have all the links correct. I was unsure about 25 to 29,
that is, exactly how Thocomerius descends from Juchi Khan (d 1227)

Appreciate any corrections.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 07 mar 2007 05:53:41

It is a pity Rafal Prinke doesn't follow gen-med anymore. Several years ago
he told me that Ghenghis Khan's wife Borke had been kidnapped and when he
found her she was pregnant with nr.29 in your list. Ghenghis Khan deeply
loved Borke and treated the son as his own
Such a pity (that Ghenghis was not the father).
Leo.


----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: European link to the Mongols


On Mar 5, 6:40 pm, joseph uphoff <noren...@nethere.com> wrote:
taf wrote:

On Mar 5, 12:15 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

What is the link between *any* European royal house to the Mongols?
Someone who is a historian and amateur genealogist suggested to me
that such
a link existed, I haven't yet run across it, and wonder if someone
has the
brief rundown of how it goes?


I have seen two sets of claims. Basarab, the founder of the family
which bore his name, was son of Thocomerius of Wallachia. This appears
to be a rendering of the Cuman name Toktomer, and there was a Mongol
princeling of this name lining in the Crimea at the time. This has
led to the suggestion (I specifically recall it from Montcrieffe) that
the Basarabs were of Mongol origin. I also recall there being some
Russian nobility that married Mongols, and it has been claimed that
Ivan the Terrible descended from them, but I don't recall the details.

One of Ivan's ancestors was a Mongol named Mamai, who was a khan of
the Golden Horde. However, he seems to have been a usurper who did
not descend from Genghis' family

Using one of the suggestions, I've made a table showing how Prince
William descends from Genghis Khan here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... nghis_Khan

Hopefully I have all the links correct. I was unsure about 25 to 29,
that is, exactly how Thocomerius descends from Juchi Khan (d 1227)

Appreciate any corrections.

Will Johnson


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

pavel.pokorny@seznam.cz

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av pavel.pokorny@seznam.cz » 07 mar 2007 09:13:25

Leo van de Pas napsal:
It is a pity Rafal Prinke doesn't follow gen-med anymore. Several years ago
he told me that Ghenghis Khan's wife Borke had been kidnapped and when he
found her she was pregnant with nr.29 in your list. Ghenghis Khan deeply
loved Borke and treated the son as his own
Such a pity (that Ghenghis was not the father).
Leo.



AFAIK, the "Secret History of Mongols" is our only source on this
issue. According to it, Börte was abducted by Merkits (one of Mongol
tribes) and was rescued after several months. She gave birth to Yuchi
shortly afterwards and it is therefore entirely possible that she was
impregnated by some Merkit (probably their leader Chilger the
Strong).
When Ghenghis decided Yuchi to be his successor, his other sons were
enraged and one of them (Chagatai? possibly; I am writing from memory
and do not really remember right now) uttered something along "How
could we allow to be ruled by a Merkit bastard?" Ghenghis in his reply
denounced these opinions stating explicitly that he counts Yuchi as
his eldest son.

Note also that Moncreiffe's Bassarab theory is certainly not widely
accepted. See e.g. Mr Frizyuk's post to ATR at
http://groups.google.cz/group/alt.talk. ... 1fe31856c9

Pavel

----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: European link to the Mongols


On Mar 5, 6:40 pm, joseph uphoff <noren...@nethere.com> wrote:
taf wrote:

On Mar 5, 12:15 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

What is the link between *any* European royal house to the Mongols?
Someone who is a historian and amateur genealogist suggested to me
that such
a link existed, I haven't yet run across it, and wonder if someone
has the
brief rundown of how it goes?


I have seen two sets of claims. Basarab, the founder of the family
which bore his name, was son of Thocomerius of Wallachia. This appears
to be a rendering of the Cuman name Toktomer, and there was a Mongol
princeling of this name lining in the Crimea at the time. This has
led to the suggestion (I specifically recall it from Montcrieffe) that
the Basarabs were of Mongol origin. I also recall there being some
Russian nobility that married Mongols, and it has been claimed that
Ivan the Terrible descended from them, but I don't recall the details.

One of Ivan's ancestors was a Mongol named Mamai, who was a khan of
the Golden Horde. However, he seems to have been a usurper who did
not descend from Genghis' family

Using one of the suggestions, I've made a table showing how Prince
William descends from Genghis Khan here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... nghis_Khan

Hopefully I have all the links correct. I was unsure about 25 to 29,
that is, exactly how Thocomerius descends from Juchi Khan (d 1227)

Appreciate any corrections.

Will Johnson


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

David Hepworth

Re: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av David Hepworth » 07 mar 2007 13:03:43

Has anyone done work on the earlier Foliot family - especially those
of Fenwick, co Yorks?

Thanks

David

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 07 mar 2007 16:08:33

In message of 7 Mar, "David Hepworth" <david@kirkleespark.com> wrote:

Has anyone done work on the earlier Foliot family - especially those
of Fenwick, co Yorks?

Have a look at pp. 33-35 of "Early Yorkshire Families" by Charles Travis
Clay, pub Yorks Archaeological Soc in 1973.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 mar 2007 16:54:43

On Mar 7, 2:13 am, "pavel.poko...@seznam.cz" <pavel.poko...@seznam.cz>
wrote:
Leo van de Pas napsal:

It is a pity Rafal Prinke doesn't follow gen-med anymore. Several years ago
he told me that Ghenghis Khan's wife Borke had been kidnapped and when he
found her she was pregnant with nr.29 in your list. Ghenghis Khan deeply
loved Borke and treated the son as his own
Such a pity (that Ghenghis was not the father).
Leo.

AFAIK, the "Secret History of Mongols" is our only source on this
issue. According to it, Börte was abducted by Merkits (one of Mongol
tribes) and was rescued after several months. She gave birth to Yuchi
shortly afterwards and it is therefore entirely possible that she was
impregnated by some Merkit (probably their leader Chilger the
Strong).
When Ghenghis decided Yuchi to be his successor, his other sons were
enraged and one of them (Chagatai? possibly; I am writing from memory
and do not really remember right now) uttered something along "How
could we allow to be ruled by a Merkit bastard?" Ghenghis in his reply
denounced these opinions stating explicitly that he counts Yuchi as
his eldest son.

Djuchi's name means "stranger"; that's not neccesarily a sign of
uncertainty on Temujin's part concerning his paternity, since he and
Borte were living as guests of another tribe at the time of Djuchi's
birth, and the name may be a reference to that. See Jack Weatherford's
"Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World". Unless some DNA
tests are done on surviving descendants of Djuchi and Genghis' other
sons, I don't suppose we'll ever really know who fathered him.

Gjest

Re: A Testator and his Will

Legg inn av Gjest » 07 mar 2007 17:56:02

In a message dated 3/7/2007 12:55:38 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
WatsonJohnM@gmail.com writes:

If anyone's interested in Roger's family history, I'd be happy to
oblige. He's my 1st cousin 13 times removed.


John it might be useful to post his ancestry to his great-grandparents, if
you have all that.
Thanks
Will Johnson
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

Tony Hoskins

Re: Children of Thomas West 3rd Baron de la Warr

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 08 mar 2007 02:51:12

Beware of familysearch in this case (as in others). A good point of
departure (though not the final word) would be the Collins-Brydges
_Peerage_, (1812).

The West family, Lords DeLaWarr, are unusually beset by bogus
children-insertions. I have seen a great many random Wests wrongly
attached to them.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Paul K Davis

RE: Willoghby - Braose (Paul Davis' question)

Legg inn av Paul K Davis » 08 mar 2007 06:44:57

Wow!

-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd-gm@earthlink.net]


[Original Message]
From: Doug Thompson <doug.thompson@virgin.net
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Date: 2/22/2007 8:00:18 AM
Subject: Willoghby - Braose (Paul Davis' question)

Back in 2002 Paul Davis asked about the connection between Willoughby and
Braose which is implied by the quartering of Willoughby arms given in the
Visitation of Nottinghamshire.

The Braose arms given included the red Fleur de lys on the shoulder of the
lion which is only known on the arms of Giles de Braose, son of William de
Braose and Agnes de Moels.

I think I solved this today.

1. Note that the Willoughby arms quartering has Filliol next to Brewes.

2. The granddaughter and heiress of Giles married a Frome (taking
Woodlands
in Dorset to him)

3. The Frome coheiress, Joan, married William Filliol.

4. A couple of generations on, William Filliol still has Woodlands. He has
(at least) two daughters. One married Edward Seymour, the other was Ann
who
married Edward Willoughby.

The estate papers of the Willoughby family, available on A2A, show that
Ann
brought Woodlands to the Willoughbys!

The Willoughbys got the arms in their quartering dead right.

Doug Thompson

--
http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thomps ... /stage.htm






-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Gjest » 08 mar 2007 15:24:34

On Mar 5, 4:51 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Does anyone have access to Anthony Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress"? I am
not sure but I think there is a vertical linkage, starting with a king of
England and his brother married someone and her brother had a mistress
sister of....... and so ending up with (I think) Genghis Khan.

Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhon...@aol.com
To: <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:15 AM
Subject: re: European link to the Mongols

What is the link between *any* European royal house to the Mongols?
Someone who is a historian and amateur genealogist suggested to me that
such
a link existed, I haven't yet run across it, and wonder if someone has the
brief rundown of how it goes?

Thanks
Will Johnson
BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

From: Anthony Wagner "Pedigree and Progress: Essays in the
genealogical interpretation of history" (Phillimore, 1975).

p. 72: In the year 1265 a nephew of Kublai Khan, Emperor of China,
married the half-sister of a Byzantine Emperor, who in 1279 married
the sister in law of a nephew of St. Louis IX, King of France, and of
Eleanor of Provence, Queen of England.

p. 72-3: Incongruous as it may seem with its cruelties, the hous of
Genghis Khan had at first no prejudice against Christianity. Indeed
Count Rudt-Collenberg's pedigrees show in the six generations from
Genghis (s. 1227) to Ulajtu (d.1316) ten (polygamous) marriages
between them and daughters of the Nestorian Christian house of Kherait
and in the third to fifth generations from Genghis four such unions
with illegitimate daughters of Byzantine Emperors.[91] Thoros and
Smbat, borthers and successive Kings of Armenia of the House of Hetum,
both in 1297 married Mongol princesses. In the same generation
antoher Mongol princess married successively two Bagratid Kings of
Georgia. [92]

FN 91: Maria daughter of Michael VIII Palaeologus to Abaka the Ilkhan
in 1265; Euphrosyne, another bastard of the same to Nogai Khan c.
1266-1272; Maria bastard of Andronicus II Palaeologus to Toktai Khan,
c. 1300; and Maria bastard of Michael IX Palaeologus to Ulajtu the
Ilkhan (1304-1316).

FN 92: Wakhtang II (d. 1292) and David VI (d. 1310).

The Pedigree is on p. 203 (Pedigree #44)

Abaka Ilkhan of Persia 1265-82, nephew of Kulba Khan and grandson of
Tului, Khan of the Mongols, married Maria, the bastard daughter of
Michael VIII Palaeologus, Emperor of Byzantium 1261-82. His son
Andronicus II (and half-brother of Maria) married Anna of Hungary,
daughter of Stephen V, King of Hungary. Anna's sister Mary married
Charles II, King of Naples, nephew of St. Louis IX King of France and
Eleanor of Provence, Queen Consort of Henry III.

Banks, Steven

RE: register of st bees

Legg inn av Banks, Steven » 08 mar 2007 21:58:57

Hi Andrew,

Go to the Internet Archive, http://www.archive.org, and search for 'St.Bees'. They have the whole book scanned which you can download.

There's lots of other stuff on there - I've DLd the Moray and Glasgow Registers as well. Look around, you might be surprised.

Steve

________________________________

From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of Andrew and Inge
Sent: Thu 3/8/2007 3:48 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: register of st bees



Would anyone have a copy of the Register of St Bees to hand? I have an exact
reference.

"The Parentage of William de Lancaster" by Washington, refers to a Roger,
brother of William de Lancaster I, at number 32, 223, and 232. I'd really
love to know what they say.

Regards
Andrew


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John Brandon

Re: Christopher Branch line for Anna Nicole?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 mar 2007 22:06:15

Wargs has updated his site nicely, based on work by J.H. Otto and
others (? some of us on the newsgroup) ...

http://www.wargs.com/other/hogan.html

Notice the entry for Anna's great-grandmother, Annie Mae (a good
Southern name, if I do say so)

13. Annie Mae Cook, b. Texas 28 Sept. 1903 (SSDI; not found in Texas
Birth Index, 1903-1997, living Precinct 1, Williamson Co., Texas in
1930, ae. 14 at first m., d. Travis Co., Texas 2 March 1990 (SSN
issued Texas 1961 to Annie M. Clawson)

The footnote for her reads:

13 -- She m. (2) by ca. 1935 Orville Clawson, by whom she had sons
William [Orville] Clawson (b. 1936), twins Demery Clawson (b. d. 1939)
and Emery Clawson (1939-2006, worked for the City of Austin's
Watershed Protection & Development Review; obit. Austin Statesman-
American, 12 March 2006 [seen online 2 March 2007 at
http://www.legacy.com/Statesman/Obituaries]), and Martha Ann Clawson,
1942-by 2005). Annie Mae's maiden surname is from the Texas Birth
Index for her Clawson children (seen 2 March 2007 at
ftp://rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/tx/trav ... avb42a.txt).
The 2005 obituary of Annie's son Melvin Tabers mentioned a surviving
sister Virginia Dorsett, as did that of his half-brother Emery Clawson
the next year.

The following burials, from Fiskville Cemetery, Austin, Texas, seem to
apply:

http://www.austintxgensoc.org/cemeteries/fiskville.html

CLAWSON,Annie,S,9-28-1903,3-2-1990,A5,149
CLAWSON,Orville,D,--7-4-1914,A5,148

It seems her first husband (and other Tabers relatives) were buried
there as well:

TABERS,Birtha,----F1,342
TABERS,Virgil,Nathaniel,4-22-1923,4-7-1948,F1,365
TABORS,Joseph,Nathaniel,9-3-1900,4-10-1931,F1,330

I'm guessing that Annie Mae's first husband's full name was "Joseph
Nathaniel Tabors," and that Anna's mother Vergie was named for an
uncle Virgil.

Austin W. Spencer

OT-Forward of the gateway (was: Christopher Branch line for

Legg inn av Austin W. Spencer » 08 mar 2007 22:06:31

On Mar 5, 11:36 am, "John Brandon" <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Other than Anna Nicole Smith being a wench, what does this have to do
with medieval genealogy?

Christopher Branch was a gateway ancestor.

The claim that he was an ancestor of Anna Nicole, however, still
awaits validation. Wynn and Cheatham may be correct about the lineage
of S. S. Huntsman. And Cheatham does claim to have used the 1850
census and some kind of marriage records from Charlotte County,
Virginia (perhaps in abstract/summary form -- one of the weaknesses of
this presentation is that IT IS HARD TO TELL.) Even this show of
assurance, however, pales next to the anonymous author of the
"cheathamranch" website that is supposed to link the Huntsmans to
Branch using no sources, or even places. I may not be familiar with
the Branch lineage, but I know that you (and Reitwiesner too) can do
better than this.

But if you think you will be able to curtail my posting habits by a
few snarky questions, you are sadly deceived.

Perhaps not, but postings like this can give us hope or make us
dream ...

Austin W. Spencer

John Brandon

Re: Christopher Branch line for Anna Nicole?

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 mar 2007 22:22:23

I see that the w.a.r.g.s. has updated his webpage nicely (based on
work by Julie H. Otto [and surely others?]) ...

http://www.wargs.com/other/hogan.html

Notice the following info on Anna's great-grandmother, Annie Mae
(Cook) (Tabers) Clawson:

13. Annie Mae Cook, b. Texas 28 Sept. 1903 (SSDI; not found in Texas
Birth Index, 1903-1997, living Precinct 1, Williamson Co., Texas in
1930, ae. 14 at first m., d. Travis Co., Texas 2 March 1990 (SSN
issued Texas 1961 to Annie M. Clawson)

Footnote: 13 -- She m. (2) by ca. 1935 Orville Clawson, by whom she
had sons William [Orville] Clawson (b. 1936), twins Demery Clawson (b.
d. 1939) and Emery Clawson (1939-2006, worked for the City of Austin's
Watershed Protection & Development Review; obit. Austin Statesman-
American, 12 March 2006 [seen online 2 March 2007 at
http://www.legacy.com/Statesman/Obituaries]), and Martha Ann Clawson,
1942-by 2005). Annie Mae's maiden surname is from the Texas Birth
Index for her Clawson children (seen 2 March 2007 at
ftp://rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/tx/trav ... avb42a.txt).
The 2005 obituary of Annie's son Melvin Tabers mentioned a surviving
sister Virginia Dorsett, as did that of his half-brother Emery Clawson
the next year.

Annie Mae and both husbands are to be found in Fiskville Cemetery,
Austin, Texas:

CLAWSON,Annie,S,9-28-1903,3-2-1990,A5,149
CLAWSON,Orville,D,--7-4-1914,A5,148
TABERS,Birtha,----F1,342
TABERS,Virgil,Nathaniel,4-22-1923,4-7-1948,F1,365
TABORS,Joseph,Nathaniel,9-3-1900,4-10-1931,F1,330

http://www.austintxgensoc.org/cemeteries/fiskville.html

Thus it seems Annie Mae's first husband's full name was "Joseph
Nathaniel Tabers," and that Vergie was named after an uncle Virgil.

John Brandon

Re: OT-Forward of the gateway (was: Christopher Branch line

Legg inn av John Brandon » 08 mar 2007 22:35:14

the Branch lineage, but I know that you (and Reitwiesner too) can do
better than this.

Aww, give me a break. It was only a suggestion. Get off that high
horse before it throws you.

Perhaps not, but postings like this can give us hope or make us
dream ...

I don't understand why you would be even 'idly musing' about this, let
alone hoping or dreaming. What did I ever do to you? More to the
point ... do I even know you?

Andrew and Inge

RE: register of st bees

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 08 mar 2007 22:48:21

Great! Thanks!

-----Original Message-----
From: Banks, Steven [mailto:bankss@carnegielibrary.org]
Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2007 9:59 PM
To: Andrew and Inge; GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: register of st bees


Hi Andrew,

Go to the Internet Archive, http://www.archive.org, and search for 'St.Bees'. They
have the whole book scanned which you can download.

There's lots of other stuff on there - I've DLd the Moray and Glasgow
Registers as well. Look around, you might be surprised.

Steve

________________________________

From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of Andrew and Inge
Sent: Thu 3/8/2007 3:48 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: register of st bees



Would anyone have a copy of the Register of St Bees to hand? I have an exact
reference.

"The Parentage of William de Lancaster" by Washington, refers to a Roger,
brother of William de Lancaster I, at number 32, 223, and 232. I'd really
love to know what they say.

Regards
Andrew


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 09 mar 2007 00:16:02

Could you please expand on this Maria, mentioned below?
I have the wife of Charles II, King of Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem
1254-1309, as Maria of Hungary died 1323, daughter of Stephen V, King of
Hungary, and Erzsebet of Bosnia.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia



The Pedigree is on p. 203 (Pedigree #44)

Abaka Ilkhan of Persia 1265-82, nephew of Kulba Khan and grandson of
Tului, Khan of the Mongols, married Maria, the bastard daughter of
Michael VIII Palaeologus, Emperor of Byzantium 1261-82. His son
Andronicus II (and half-brother of Maria) married Anna of Hungary,
daughter of Stephen V, King of Hungary. Anna's sister Mary married
Charles II, King of Naples, nephew of St. Louis IX King of France and
Eleanor of Provence, Queen Consort of Henry III.

norenxaq

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av norenxaq » 09 mar 2007 00:32:59

Merilyn Pedrick wrote:

Could you please expand on this Maria, mentioned below?
I have the wife of Charles II, King of Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem
1254-1309, as Maria of Hungary died 1323, daughter of Stephen V, King of
Hungary, and Erzsebet of Bosnia.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia




they're different people

The Pedigree is on p. 203 (Pedigree #44)

Abaka Ilkhan of Persia 1265-82, nephew of Kulba Khan and grandson of
Tului, Khan of the Mongols, married Maria, the bastard daughter of
Michael VIII Palaeologus, Emperor of Byzantium 1261-82. His son
Andronicus II (and half-brother of Maria) married Anna of Hungary,
daughter of Stephen V, King of Hungary. Anna's sister Mary married
Charles II, King of Naples, nephew of St. Louis IX King of France and
Eleanor of Provence, Queen Consort of Henry III.







Leo van de Pas

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 09 mar 2007 00:43:16

With apologies to Martin Hollick, I think what he wrote below is totally
correct but appears confusing.
Anna and her sister Maria (wife of Charles II of Naples) are indeed
daughters of Stephen V of Hungary and Erzsebet of the Cumans (Bosnia).

Anna married Andronicos II Emperor of Byzantium (as Martin also gives) this
Andronicus II is a son of Emperor Michael VIII.

Michael VIII had an illegitimate daughter by NN Diplobatazaina, this
daughter Maria Palaiologos married Abagka Illkhan (or Abaka Ilkhan).

For this last couple ES II 170 gives a daughter Theodora Arachantloun who
married Isaakios Palaiologos Asanes
this is all I can find about these descendants of both Mongols and
Byzantines.

Any extensions gratefully received.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>; <mhollick@mac.com>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: European link to the Mongols


Could you please expand on this Maria, mentioned below?
I have the wife of Charles II, King of Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem
1254-1309, as Maria of Hungary died 1323, daughter of Stephen V, King of
Hungary, and Erzsebet of Bosnia.
Merilyn Pedrick
Aldgate, South Australia



The Pedigree is on p. 203 (Pedigree #44)

Abaka Ilkhan of Persia 1265-82, nephew of Kulba Khan and grandson of
Tului, Khan of the Mongols, married Maria, the bastard daughter of
Michael VIII Palaeologus, Emperor of Byzantium 1261-82. His son
Andronicus II (and half-brother of Maria) married Anna of Hungary,
daughter of Stephen V, King of Hungary. Anna's sister Mary married
Charles II, King of Naples, nephew of St. Louis IX King of France and
Eleanor of Provence, Queen Consort of Henry III.







-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Gjest » 10 mar 2007 08:57:48

---- paulvheath@gmail.com wrote:

=============
On Mar 5, 9:51 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Does anyone have access to Anthony Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress"? I am
not sure but I think there is a vertical linkage, starting with a king of
England and his brother married someone and her brother had a mistress
sister of....... and so ending up with (I think) Genghis Khan.

Leo van de Pas

I think that you are right. But I borrowed it from a library decades
ago.



But, it was horizontal, not vertical, so that it was a series of marriages, rather than a descent line.

Doug McDonald

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Doug McDonald » 10 mar 2007 15:00:33

fordmommaerts@cox.net wrote:
---- paulvheath@gmail.com wrote:

=============
On Mar 5, 9:51 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Does anyone have access to Anthony Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress"? I am
not sure but I think there is a vertical linkage, starting with a king of
England and his brother married someone and her brother had a mistress
sister of....... and so ending up with (I think) Genghis Khan.

Leo van de Pas

I think that you are right. But I borrowed it from a library decades
ago.



But, it was horizontal, not vertical, so that it was a series of marriages, rather than a descent line.

I have the book. I can answer questions if I know what to look for.

Doug McDonald

Gjest

Re: European link to the Mongols

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 mar 2007 09:41:07

On Mar 9, 11:57 pm, <fordmommae...@cox.net> wrote:
---- paulvhe...@gmail.com wrote:

=============
On Mar 5, 9:51 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

Does anyone have access to Anthony Wagner's "Pedigree and Progress"? I am
not sure but I think there is a vertical linkage, starting with a king of
England and his brother married someone and her brother had a mistress
sister of....... and so ending up with (I think) Genghis Khan.

Leo van de Pas

I think that you are right. But I borrowed it from a library decades
ago.

But, it was horizontal, not vertical, so that it was a series of marriages, rather than a descent line.

Hello - Wagner said that the nephew of Kublai Khan, Albaka Ilkhan of
Persia, d. 1282, married Maria, daughter of Michaell VIII Palaeologus
by Diplovatatze, a concubine. He said this nephew was son of Kublai
Khan's brother, Hulago Ilkhan of Persia, d. 1265. It caught my fancy
(or funny bone) years ago when I had borrowed the book from the
library and I jotted it down. Best, Bronwen Edwards

Gjest

Re: Gifford's attorney Dutton Seaman, d. by 1667

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 mar 2007 19:35:04

A rather odd name "Dutton Seaman"
Is this the same one here?
_http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/ss4as/sidley1.htm#son1_
(http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... 1.htm#son1)
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

John Brandon

Re: Gifford's attorney Dutton Seaman, d. by 1667

Legg inn av John Brandon » 12 mar 2007 20:32:35

Is this the same one here?
_http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/ss4as/sidley1.htm#son1_
(http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... 1.htm#son1)\

Possibly his son. There were three or four Dutton Seamans in
succession, I think.

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0pMwm ... man&pgis=1

John P. Ravilious

Re: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 13 mar 2007 16:39:09

Tuesday, 13 March, 2007


Dear David,

Following on your query of 7 March, below is a chart of the early
generations of the Foliot family of Yorkshire (later of Elsing and
Gressenhall, Norfolk, &c.) as I have it currently reconstructed. This
is a slight revision of an earlier version, in that William Foliot (d.
after 1129/30) had known issue by Agnes de Arches as her 3rd husband,
but whose heir (Jordan) and other sons were evidently by an earlier
wife.

I will post a detailed pedigree following on this, which will
provide more details concerning documentation of these generations.
The placement of Richard Foliot (husband of Beatrice Bardolf) as shown
below is shown with broken lines (_ _ _ _ ) indicating his parentage
is conjectural, but is most likely based on the chronology, and the
landholding and onomastic evidence in hand.

Cheers,

John *





<3> <2> <1>
NN = William = (2) Agnes de = Robert de = Herbert
(1) I Foliot I Arches I Fauconberg de St.
I d. aft I I Quintin
I 1129/30 I I
I ____I________ I_________________
I I I I
I William Hugh Piers de
I Foliot Foliot Fauconberg
I fl. 1143/54 of Rise and Carfoss
I d. bef 1166
I______________________
_____________________I__________________________
I I I I
Jordan Foliot = Beatrice Henry Payn Richard
'held three fees I
of Henry de Lacy I
of Pontefract in I
1166 ' [DD] I
________________I_____ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
Jordan Henry Richard = Beatrice
Foliot Foliot Foliot I Bardolf
d. bef 25 I
Jul 1206 I
I
I
Sir Jordan Foliot
d. bef 5 Mar 1235/6
'held one fee of Roger de
Lacy (1212) '

I

I
Sir Richard Foliot
of Grimston & c.
d. Mar 1299


* John P. Ravilious







On Mar 7, 8:03 am, "David Hepworth" <d...@kirkleespark.com> wrote:
Has anyone done work on the earlier Foliot family - especially those
of Fenwick, co Yorks?

Thanks

David

John P. Ravilious

Re: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 13 mar 2007 16:41:18

Tuesday, 13 March, 2007


Dear David, et al.,

Following is the detailed pedigree of the Foliots of Grimston,
later Elsing.

Should anyone have further comment, documentation or criticism,
please advise.

Cheers,

John *

_________________________________________________


1 William Foliot
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1166[1]


gave a carucate of land 'in Pontefract, in Baghill, to the monks of
Pontefract:
' unam carrucatam terre in Pontefracto, in Baghil, quam terram
pater meus Willelmus Foliot eis donavit in puram et perpetuam
elemosinam. ' [confirmed by his son Jordan Foliot in a charter,
quoted above, dated ' c. 1160 ' ] - Chart. Pontefract I:136-7,
No. LXXXX[2]

______________________

father of Jordan Foliot:
cf. DD 981 sub Jordan Foliot (cites
Red Book of the Exchequer pp. 421-24[1])

Note: KSB Keats-Rohan was uncertain of identifying this William
as identical to the 'Willelm Foliot', tenant of Percy
(and undertenant, as to lands held of the Vavasour family)
in Yorkshire ca. 1129/30; 'father of Hugh and Henry [Foliot]
by his second wife Agnes de Arches' [DD 984 sub Willelm
Foliot, cites Pipe Roll 31 Hen I, 26-ynb[1]]. Clay
(p. 34[3]) makes this identification certain.

evidently d. before 1166 (his son Jordan held 3 knights' fees of
Henry de Lacy - DD 981, citing Red Book of the Exchequer
pp. 421-24[1]]

his 2nd wife was evidently Agnes de Arches, widow of
(1) Herbert de St. Quintin, and (2) Robert de Fauconberg:

'Willelmi Foliot', identified as son of Agnes de Arches in
confirmation by William, archbishop of York,
' dated 1143-1154, of a gift made by [Agnes de Arches ]
to Nunkeeling by
"petitione Agnetis matris Petri de Falcamberga et
filiorum suorum Willelmi et Hugonis Foliot" [Farrer
EYC v.3 p.54].' [26]

Spouse: NN [1st wife]

Children: Jordan (->1175)
Henry
Payne
Richard

Other Spouses Agnes de Arches [2nd wife]

Children: William
Hugh


1.1 Jordan Foliot
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1175[3]

of Norton, co. Yorks.

'Jordan Foliot, brother of Henry, who held three fees of Henry
de Lacy of Pontefract in 1166;... son of William,...brother of
a Richard (EYC ii, 849).' [DD 981 sub Jordan Foliot; cites
Red Book of the Exchequer pp. 421-24[1]]

' Jordanus Folioth', granted a charter dated 26 Dec 1159, giving to
the monks of Pontefract ' the West Mill of Norton, from which mill
the monks shall pay half a mark every year to the chapel of
Norton....', witnessed by Henry de Lacy, his lord in Norton,
'with whose consent and permission this was done '.
[Chart. Pontefract I:135-6, no. LXXXIX[2]]


' Jordanus Foliot ', confirmed his gift to Pontefract cited above,
and the gift of his father William Foliot of a carucate of land
'in Pontefract, in Baghill, to the monks of Pontefract, ca. 1160:
' unam carrucatam terre in Pontefracto, in Baghil, quam terram
pater meus Willelmus Foliot eis donavit in puram et perpetuam
elemosinam. ' [ Chart. Pontefract I:136-7, No. LXXXX[2]]

the lands held as tenant of de Lacy evidently those held by Jordan
Foliot (presumably his grandson) in 1225:
" Et Matildi de Lascy pro eodem Jordano [Foliot] de bosco de Pippin.
" [Paul Reed, citing Calendar of Patent Rolls 1216-1225][4]

' Jurdan Foliot ', witness to Feoffment dated c1150-1175:
' Osbert was seised of the land by Normans, the King's (sergeant ?),
Humphrey Porter, in the presence of Henry Laialais, William Paitevin,
Roger the priest, William the priest, Simeon the priest, John the son
of Oldebert, Henry Hustarc, Gerard son of William the Fat, William de
Rucford, William Murdac, Lambert the physician, John Snellman, Robert
Arcer, Eudo de Stell, Peter de Torp,
Alan de Bramam, William son of Uc.
Witnesses to Osbert's homage: David the Larderer, William his
son,
Thomas his brother, John the Larderer, Walter the son of Fanuf, Roger
the priest, Stephen the priest, Gamell the priest, Simeon the priest,
John de Meos, William son of Osbert, Brian son of Sccotland, Joscelin
de Areci, Arnald de Perchi, Jurdan Foliot, Henry Walais, Maci de
Curchi, Eustace de Merc, Roger de Esc, Arnald de Mildebi, Torfin son
of Robert son of Copsi, Peter Basset, Simon his brother, Peter Lufel,
William Paitevin, William Tilemer, Alan de Cnapatun, Albert
de Merstun, Richard son of Guy, Thomas son of Vivet (?), Robert son of
Ace, Paulinus the bishop's son, Gerard son of Levin, Hugh son of
Audon, Ernis brother of Aldred, Roger son of Turgis, Walter his
brother, Robert Brun, Robert son of Milesant, John son of Senel,
Robert the Arch (deacon ?), Thomas Mala Opera.'- PRO, West Yorkshire
Archive Service, Leeds: Ingilby Records [WYL230/1 - WYL230/1256],
MEDIEVAL CHARTERS: YORKSHIRE - Thorp [WYL230/240 ][5]

'confirmed to Nostell the mill of Norton, given by his father, 1159-70
[Clay p. 34 note 10, cites E.Y.C. iii, no. 1529, 'wit. by Henry de
Lascy'[3] ]

' Jordano Foliot' , witness to grant dated 1175-77 :
' Grant by Henry de Vernoil I to house of Temple of Jerusalem of 34
acres of land etc in Egborough.
Witnesses: Bartranno priore de
Pontefracto et toto conventu, Jordano Foliot, Ada filio Petri, Toma
fratre ejus, Ottone de Tilli, Henrico de Waleis, Malgero de Stivetun,
Willelmo de Beleue, Sansone filio Hervi, Henrico filio Jordani Foliot,
Jordano de Ledestun',Alexandro et Johanne et Rogero de Ruhale, qui hec
concesserunt et confirmavertunt.' [ EYC, iii, 287-8, no 1626
(1175-77),
courtesy David Hepworth[6] ]
_____________________

~ According to K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, 'Possibly distinct' from Jordan
Foliot who "attested a charter of Countess Lucy of Chester
c. 1135 with his brothers Richard and Payn." [DD 981 sub Jordan
Foliot[1], cites Barraclough, no. 16, no. 17[7]]

re: his wife Beatrice:

' Jordanus Foliot', her husband, 'confirmed to God and St. Mary and
St. John and the monks of Pontefract, the West Mill of Norton,
with the site of the mill itself ',
' consilio et consensu Beatricis uxoris mee ' [by the counsel and
consent of Beatrice my wife],
which he originally granted by a charter dated 26 Dec
1159 [Chart. Pontefract I:136-7, no. LXXXX[2]]

Spouse: Beatrice

Children: Jordan 'II'
Henry (->1175)
Richard (-<1206)


1.1.1 Jordan 'II' Foliot
----------------------------------------


' Jordan Foliot II, who described as Jordan Foliot
son of Jordan Foliot, confirmed all the gifts of his ancestors
to Pontefract priory as testified by his father's charter.'
[Clay p. 34, cites Pontefract Chartulary, no. 91[3]]


' Confirmation by Jordan Foliot II to canons of Nostell of
mill at Norton which Jordan his father had given.
Witnesses Henrico de Laceio de cujus feodo est, Osberto
archidiacono, Otho de Tilli, Willelmo de Builli, et Roberto
fratre ejus, Toma filio Petri et Radulfo Filigura '
[EYC, iii 216, no 1529 (1159-70), courtesy David Hepworth[6]]

charter, undated:
' To all the sonns of the holy Mother the Church Jordan son of
Jordan Foliot greeting. Know ye that J have confirmed by this
my Charter for the health of my soule, & of my Ancestors, All
the guifts which my Ancestors haue giuen to the Church of St
John of Pontefract as the Charter of my father Jordan
doth testifie. Wittnesse Guilbert de Lascy &c. '
[Holmes, Wapentake of Osgoldcross, YAJ XII:51[8], cites 'The
Charter of Jordan son of Jordan Foliot, of confirmation,
fo. 26 [not in the Monasticon; but see Lansdowne 207, also
Harl. 600].']


1.1.2 Henry Foliot
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1175[6]


fl. 1175-1177

' Henrico filio Jordani Foliot ', witness to grant dated 1175-77 :
' Grant by Henry de Vernoil I to house of Temple of Jerusalem of 34
acres of land etc in Egborough.
Witnesses: Bartranno priore de
Pontefracto et toto conventu, Jordano Foliot, Ada filio Petri, Toma
fratre ejus, Ottone de Tilli, Henrico de Waleis, Malgero de Stivetun,
Willelmo de Beleue, Sansone filio Hervi, Henrico filio Jordani Foliot,
Jordano de Ledestun',Alexandro et Johanne et Rogero de Ruhale, qui hec
concesserunt et confirmavertunt.' [ EYC, iii, 287-8, no 1626
(1175-77),
courtesy David Hepworth[6] ]


1.1.3 Richard Foliot
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 25 Jul 1206[9]

husband of Beatrice Bardolf

his son succeeded to the inheritance of Fenwick, co. Yorks.
before 25 Jul 1206[9]

re: his wife Beatrice Bardolf:
one of five sisters and coheiresses of Robert Bardolf[10]
[her inheritance including Grimston, co. Notts, and one-fifth of
a knight's fee in Hoo, Kent]

identified as Beatrice in 'Ancestral Roots', per Todd Farmerie
(Jan 25 1997)[11]

died before 1 July 1225, on which date her son Jordan Foliot
was recorded as having done homage for his inheritance of his
uncle, Robert Bardolf[12],[13]

~ His widow evidently m. Robert de Fenwich after his death [3]

Spouse: Beatrice Bardolf
Death: bef 1 Jul 1225[13]
Father: Hugh Bardolf (-ca1176)
Mother: Isabel de Condet (>1136->1165)

Children: Jordan (-<1235)


1.1.3.1 Jordan Foliot
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 5 Mar 1235[10]

of Grimston, co. Notts, Fenwick, co. Yorks., Frisby, co. Lincs. & c.

quitclaimed certain rights as the dower of Beatrice, widow of
Robert de Fenwich, in 30 acres at Fenwick, co. Yorks. 25 July 1206:
' cclvi. York, the day of Saint James the apostle (25 July 1206).
Between Beatrice, who was the wife of Robert de Fenwich, plaintiff,
and Jordan Foliot, tenant, concerning the third part of thirty acres
of land with appurtenances in Fenwick, which she was claiming
against Jordan himself as her reasonable dower which belongs to
her from the gift of the aforesaid Robert, formerly her husband,
in Fenwick. Whereupon the plea was etc., namely that the
aforesaid Beatrice has remised etc. all right etc. in the
aforementioned third part of thirty acres of land with appurtenances
to the aforementioned Jordan and the heirs of his body forever. And
for this quitclaim etc. the aforementioned Jordan has granted and
quitclaimed the same Beatrice the moiety of the entire crop of
the aforementioned land for this present year. ' Yorkshire Feet
of Fines[9] [Note: Clay (pp. 34-35[3]) identifies this Jordan as
Jordan 'II', shown here as brother of Richard and uncle of this
Jordan Foliot]

'In 1212 Jordan Foliot had one fee of Roger de Lacy (then dead)
in Frisby and Hackthorne, Lincolnshire (Fees, 190).' [DD 981,
sub Jordan Foliot][1] 'Jordan Foliot held the Tattershall fee
in Saxilby [Lincs.] in 1212 (Fees, 190).' [DD 984, sub Willelm
II Foliot[1]]

performed homage and had livery of his purparty of the lands of
uncle Robert Bardolf, 1 Jul 1225[10]: a fine of that date records,

' D' homag capto. } Dns Rex cep homag JORD' FOLIOT ISOLD' DE
} GRAY 't RAD' PAYNEL de portoibs suis q eos
coting de tris q fuut ROB'TI BARDULF' avuncli sui q's de dno R.
tenuit i cap 't mand est Vic Kanc qd accepta ab eis sec'itate de
relevio suo dno R. reddendo q'tu p jud curie dni R. inde redde
debuint: plena eis saisina hre fac de portoibs suis ipos heditar
ctingetibs de tris pdcis i balla sua, accepta & ead sec'itate a
ROB'TO LUPO loco MATILD' BARDULF' mris sue q est una hedu
pdci Robti de relevio suo dno R. reddendo q'tu ad ipam ptin t
p pte sua silr eid Rob pl saisina hre fac loco mat's sue de portoe
ipam heditar cting de tris pdcis. Portoem vo ctingente fil 't hede
HUG' POINZ qui similr e unus hedu ipius Robti 't inf' etate est
't i custodia dni R. salvo custodiat don dns R. aliud inde pcepit.
T. R. ap Westm j. die Jul. ' Excerpta e Rotulis Finium, I:129[12]

this included Grimston, co. Notts [as indicated by holdings of Isabel
de Condet][11]

held of Maud de Lacy land(s) in the 'forest of Pippin', 1225:
" Et Matildi de Lascy pro eodem Jordano [Foliot] de bosco de Pippin.
" [Paul Reed, citing Calendar of Patent Rolls 1216-1225][4]

Jordan Foliot " has given to Simon de Steyngrave lands at
Frisby, Lincs., with his d. Beatrice, in marriage, 25 Apr
1295 (Inq.)."[14][evidently from the IPM of John de Stonegrave]

IPM of Simon de Pateshulle in co. Lincs., in answer to writ of
diem clausit extremum dated Westminster, 2 Dec 24 Edw. I (1295):
" By the second [Lincoln] the jurors find that Simon held certain
lands and tenements in Lincolnshire of Richard Folyot, as those
which Jordan Folyot, father of Richard, gave to Simon de
Steyngreve, grandfather of Isabel, in frank marriage with Beatrice
his daughter." [Yorks. Inqs. III:26, note (b)[15] ]
_________________

re: his wife:

possibly Joan, wife in 1251 of 'Ranulph de Cunte':
record of a charter for a market and fair at Grimston, Norfolk,
'M (Charter) Wed; gr 28 Apr 1251, by K Hen III to Ranulph de Cunte
and Joan his wife (CChR, 1226-57, p. 358).
F (Charter) vfm, Margaret (20 Jul); gr 28 Apr 1251, by K Hen III
to Ranulph le Cunte and Joan his wife (CChR, 1226-57, p. 358).'[16]

Spouse: NN

Children: Beatrice
Sir Richard (>1214-1299)


1.1.3.1.1 Beatrice Foliot
----------------------------------------

her father Sir Jordan Foliot
'has given to Simon de Steyngrave lands at Frisby, Lincs., with
his d. Beatrice, in marriage, 25 Apr 1295 (Inq.).'[14]

Spouse: Simon de Steyngrave[14]

Children: William (-<1268)
Peter (-<1268)
John de Stonegrave, m. Ida Wake



1.1.3.1.2 Sir Richard Foliot
----------------------------------------
Birth: aft 5 Mar 1214[10]
Death: Mar 1299[10]

knight, of Norton, Fenwick, co. York and Grimston and Wellow, Notts.

had livery of his father's lands, incl. one-fifth of a knight's fee
in Hoo, Kent on 5 March 1235/36 (when still a minor)[10]

his lands in Yorkshire included the manors of Barneby, 'Foliot'
and Hawurth [Handsworth ?]:
' A.D. 1259. - The Prior of Watton v. Richard Foliot, to acquit
him of the service which the King exacts for the free tenement
which the Prior holds of Richard in Barneby, Foliot, and Hawurth.'
[YAS XVII:216, Num. 6, cites Curia Regis, No. 162, Hil. 43 Hen.
III. m. 4 d.[17]]

Letter patent dated 1264:
' Letters patent of the King licensing Richard Folyot to enclose
his manor house of Grymeston' with a moat and a crenellated
wall. ' - A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of Rufford:
Deeds and Estate Papers [DD/SR/13 - DD/SR/205], DD/SR/102/166[5]

supporter of King Henry III against de Montfort - had grant of the
King by a fine dated 48 Hen. III, m. 4 [1264]:

' AA. 9 [vol. 117]. The King granted to Richard Folyot the
mann'rs of Adam de Newmarket [Newmarch] of Wilmersley [Womersley],
Champsall, Thorp, Bentley, Archesey, in the County of York. '
[Holmes, YAJ X:363[18]]

had charters for a market and fair at Wellow, co. Notts.:
'(Charter) gr[anted] 22 Oct 1268, by K[ing] Hen[ry] III to
Richard Foliot. To be held at the manor. The roll is damaged
and information is missing (CChR, 1257-1300, p. 113). On 22
Feb 1330, the justices in eyre were ordered to
permit Margery Foliot, lady of Wellehagh, to have her Fri
market notwithstanding the eyre, as she and other lords of the
town had had from the time of the making of the charters of the
king's progenitors (CCR, 1330-33, pp. 124, 129).'[16]

'Ricardus Foliot pro quadam parte ejusdem villae, quam tenet de
Willelmo le Vavasur, iiijs. de eodem fine' [fined for a moiety
of the manor of Barneby super Don, co. Yorks. which he held of
William le Vavasour, 1281 - Kirby's Inquest, p. 8[19] ]

made a gift by charter (dated 1266 - 1299) to the monks of Rufford
of '1 toft in Eakring' -A2A, Nottinghamshire Archives: Savile of
Rufford: Deeds and Estate Papers - Charters, Rufford [DD/SR/208/77]
[5]

overlord of lands in Frisby and possibly others, co. Lincs.
(maritagium of his sister Beatrice):
IPM of Simon de Pateshulle in co. Lincs., in answer to writ of
diem clausit extremum dated Westminster, 2 Dec 24 Edw. I (1295):
" By the second [Lincoln] the jurors find that Simon held certain
lands and tenements in Lincolnshire of Richard Folyot, as those
which Jordan Folyot, father of Richard, gave to Simon de
Steyngreve, grandfather of Isabel, in frank marriage with Beatrice
his daughter." [Yorks. Inqs. III:26, note (b)[15] ]

' Richard Foliott ', knight
Arms: ' Gules a bend argent ' [ H S London, Rolls of Arms,
Henry III, Aspilogia 2, Society of Antiquaries, London,
1967 - ca. 1252 or later, B 172 ][20]

IPM of Richard Foliot and Jordan Foliot [his son], ' made at
York, 23 June, 27 Edward (1299), before Mr. Richard de
Haveringg', Escheator,....
' Richard Foliot held on the day of his death nothing in chief
of the King, nor of anyone else in his demesne as of fee, in the
county of York. He had a rent of £10, to be received yearly from
his son Jordan and Margery his wife, for the term of his life, from
the manors of Northon and Fenewyke. Jordan, son of the said
Richard, was his nearest heir on the day of his death, and was of
the age of fifty and upwards. Jordan died within five weeks after
his father's death.
' Jordan Folyot held nothing of the King in chief in his
demesne as of fee, nor in demesne, nor in service, in the county
of York. Jordan and Margery his wife, jointly enfeoffed by Richard
his father in the manors of Northon and Fenewyke, held these
manors on the day of Jordan's death of Henry de Lacy, Earl of
Lincoln, by the service of three knights' fees. Margery is
still surviving. The manor of Northon worth in all issues £29 a
year, and the manor of Fenewyke £15 a year. Richard, son of the
same Jordan, is his nearest heir, and was of the age of fifteen
on Christmas last past. ' [Yorks. Inqs. III:102-3[15]]
_______________________

re: his wife Margery de Stuteville:

heiress (in her issue) of brother Sir Robert de Stuteville

her purparty included Gressenhall, Elsing, East Lexham and
Weasenham, Norfolk and Cowesby, Stillingfleet, Newsham and East
Ness, co. York[10]


Spouse: Margery de Stuteville
Death: bef 2 Oct 1275[14]
Father: Sir William de Stuteville, of Gressenhall, &c. (-<1259)
Mother: Margaret de Say (-<1243)

Children: Sir Jordan (<1249-<1299)
Sir Edmund Foliot, of Handsworth, co. Yorks
Sir William Foliot, of Tilney and Ilsington, Norfolk


1.1.3.1.2.1 Sir Jordan Foliot
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 2 May 1249[10]
Death: bef 2 May 1299[10],[15]
Occ: Lord Foliot

knight, of Gressenhall, Elsing, East Lexham and Weasenham,
Norfolk; Norton, Fenwick, Moseley and Cowesby, co. York, Grimston
and Wellow, Notts.

'entered upon the lands' of his uncle Robert de Stuteville following
his death;
ejected by Philip de Wylheby, escheator, 'as if the said Robert
had held from the king in chief, and detained same from him, as
was said unjustly (minus juste).' Writ dated Tydeswell, 20 Aug.
3 Edw. I [1275] to Philip de Wileby, Escheator beyond Trent,
'to make inquisition, whether the said Robert held anything in
chief on the day he died.'

' Inquisition made at York on Wednesday after the feast of St.
Michael, 3 Edw. (2 Oct., 1275), before Philip de Wylheby, the
Escheator, by William de Habbeton,...[&c.], who say on their
oath that Robert de Stuteville, uncle (avunculus) of Jordan
Foliot, held nothing of the king in chief on the day he
died.' [ Yorks. Inq. II:1, No. 1[15] ]

record of protection, dated at Chester, 17 Jul 5 Edw I (1277):
' Protection with clause volumus, until Michaelmas [unless otherwise
specified], for the following, going to Wales on the king's service: -
Jordan Folyot,
William Folyot. ' [CPR 5 Edw. I (1272-1281), p. 220, mem. 8[21]]

'Jordan Foliot', held 1 carucate in the manor of 'Stivelingflete'
ca. 1281:
Et Gilbertus de Luthe tenet j car. terrae in eadem de Jurdano Foliot
per feodum militare, et facit sectas praedictas; et ille tenet de
Baldewino de Wake, et ille de Rege in capite.' [manor held of
Jordan Foliot by military service, which he held of Baldwin Wake,
who held same of the King in chief - Kirkby's Inquest
p. 64-66[19]; cited also as holding same in 1284/85: VCH East
Riding, III:101-112, sub Stillingfleet, citing Feud. Aids,
vi. 35; E.Y.C. ix, p. 37.[22] ]

'Holds 2 knights' fees at Cowesby, [East] Nesse, Stivelingeflete,
Ripplingham, and Brantingham, Yorks., late of Baldwin Wake,
25 Mar 1282, and overlord of Welyngham Manor, Norf., 10 Sept
1289 (Inq.).'[14]

presented to the living of Kirk Smeaton, 15 June, 1289:
' Jordan Foliot K't pr'sents to the Church of Smytheton on the
Ides of June, 4'o pontif. [1289.]. ' [Holmes, Wapentake of
Osgoldcross, YAJ XII:75[23], cites ' Out of John Roman's Register,
fo. 15 & 18.' Vol. 127, no. 106]

Summoned to Parliament from 24 June 1295 to 2 Nov 1295 by writs
directed 'Jordano Foliot', held thereby to have become Lord Foliot.
[10]

IPM of Richard Foliot and Jordan Foliot [his son], ' made at
York, 23 June, 27 Edward (1299), before Mr. Richard de Haveringg',
Escheator,....
' Jordan Folyot held nothing of the King in chief in his
demesne as of fee, nor in demesne, nor in service, in the county
of York. Jordan and Margery his wife, jointly enfeoffed by Richard
his father in the manors of Northon and Fenewyke, held these manors
on the day of Jordan's death of Henry de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln, by
the service of three knights' fees. Margery is still surviving.
The manor of Northon worth in all issues £29 a year, and the manor
of Fenewyke £15 a year. Richard, son of the same Jordan, is his
nearest heir, and was of the age of fifteen on Christmas last
past. ' [Yorks. Inqs. III:102-3[15]]

found following his IPM to have ' held of the late King [Edward I]
in chief one-fifth of a knight's fee in Hoo, Kent' (CP V:540, sub
_Foliot_)[10]

re: his wife:

' Margery Foliot, lady of Wellehagh ', had her right to have a market
at Wellow, co. Notts. confirmed, 22 Feb 1330, when
" the justices in eyre were ordered to permit Margery Foliot, lady
of Wellehagh, to have her Fri market notwithstanding the eyre,
as she and other lords of the town had had from the time of the
making of the charters of the king's progenitors (CCR,
1330-33, pp. 124, 129).'[16]

her heirs were her granddaughters Margery and Margaret, according
to her IPM at Notts. (18 May, 1330) and York (22 May, 1330)[10]

Spouse: Margery de Neumarche[10]
Death: 18 Apr 1330[10]
Father: Sir Adam de Neumarche (->1289)
Mother: [not proven] Elizabeth de Mowbray (->1289)

Children: Joan
Sir Richard (1283-<1317)


1.1.3.1.2.1.1 Joan Foliot
----------------------------------------

identified as probable wife of Alphonso de Vere

(said to be daughter of Richard Foliot, in error)[24]

Spouse: Alfonso de Vere
Birth: bef 1263[10]
Death: ca 20 Dec 1329
Father: Robert de Vere, 5th Earl of Oxford
Mother: Alice de Sanford (-<1312)

Children: John de Vere, 7th Earl of Oxford
Margery, m. Sir Maurice de Berkeley


1.1.3.1.2.1.2 Sir Richard Foliot[25]
----------------------------------------
Birth: 25 Dec 1283[10],[15]
Death: bef 23 Jul 1317, Scotland, on the king's service[10]
Occ: Lord Foliot

knight, of Gressenhall and Weasenham, co. Norfolk
2nd Lord Foliot

he was b. 25 Dec 1283:
the IPM for his father, dated at York, 23 June, 27 Edward (1299),
states,
' Richard, son of the same Jordan, is his nearest heir, and
was of the age of fifteen on Christmas last past. ' [Yorks.
Inqs. III:102-3[15]]

2nd husband of Joan de Braose[10]:
'Grant of marriage of Joan, wid. of Jas. de Bohun,
16 Sep. 1310' - Knights of Edward I II:77-78, cites P.R.[14]

Spouse: Joan de Braose
Death: bef 23 Jun 1324[10]
Father: Sir William de Braose, lord of Bramber (>1246-<1326)
Mother: Agnes (-<1317)
Marr: aft 16 Sep 1310[10]

Children: Margery, m. Sir Hugh de Hastings
Richard (dsp -1325)
Margaret, m. John de Camoys


1. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville'
Jul 2, 2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
2. Richard Holmes, ed., "The Chartulary of St. John of Pontefract,"
The Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, various
dates:, Vol. I (Record series vol. XXV) - 1899, Vol. II(Record
series vol. XXX) - 1902.
3. Sir Charles Clay, ed., "Early Yorkshire Families," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), 1973, Vol. CXXXV.
4. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Matilda de Clere, wife of John de
Lacy," Feb 11, 1999, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com, cites Calendar
of Patent Rolls 1216-1225, p. 576 - Jordan Foliot and Maud de
Lacy, also Dugdale, Mon. Angl. 5:534 [Historia Laceiorum, from
the account of the Abbey of Kirkstall] re: Maud de Lacy.
5. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
6. David Hepworth, "CP Addition: Margaret, wife of (1) Sir John
Deiville and (2) Adam de Everingham," 28 September 2004, email
therav3@aol.com, cites EYC and other sources, as well as Paley
Baildon's unpublished notes and MS, located at Bradford Archives.
7. Geoffrey Barraclough, "The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of
Chester, c. 1071-1237," The Record Society of Lancashire and
Cheshire, 1988, cites charters in the Public Record Office, the
Bodleian Library and elsewhere.
8. Richard Holmes, "Wapentake of Osgoldcross," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Journal, Vol. XII (1893), London: printed for
the Association by Bradbury, Agnew and Co., Whitefriars, E.C.
9. "Yorkshire Feet of Fines 1206," trans. by Virginia Murphy, Latin
text from Pedes Finium Ebor. Regnante Johanne, a.d. mcxcix-a.d.
mccxiv, published for the Surtees Society, vol. 94, 1987,
pp. 101-109., URL :
http://bob-boynton.hypermart.net/people ... fines.html
http://bob-boynton.hypermart.net/people ... court.html.
10. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
11. Frederick L. Weis (add/corr, Walter L Sheppard Jr.), "Ancestral
Roots of Certain American Colonists," Baltimore: Genealogical
Pub. Co., connection of Isabel de Condet and Hugh Bardolf, as
cited by E. Mann, Line 132D-27,-28 in AR7, also, Descendants of
Henry I of Germany (10/30/98), Line 157 (Gerberga of Burgundy
to Emperor Henry III).
12. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The
Commissioners of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I
(1216-1246), 1835, full title: Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in
Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
13. John P. Ravilious, "Re: DD Correction: the Bardolfs of Ilketshall,
Suffolk, Waddington, Lincs. & c.," January 19, 2003, email,
therav3@aol.com (paper copy: library of John Ravilious, cites
Excerpta e Rotulis Finium, I:129, also Complete Peerage (Grey;
Poyntz; Bardolf);, contributions by Paul Reed, FASG (re: Farrer,
Honors and Knights Fees, ii:17 and others), Todd Farmerie, Cris
Nash and Roz Griston.
14. Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., "Knights of Edward I," Pubs. of
the
Harleian Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
15. William Brown, B.A., ed., "Yorkshire Inquisitions," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), various dates:, Vol. I (Record
series vol.
XII) - 1892, Vol. II(Record series vol. XXIII) - 1898, Vol. III
(Record series
vol. XXXI) - 1902, Vol. IV (Record series vol. XXXVII) - 1906.
16. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/,
extracted 5 Nov 2001, Wiltshire [Bassett], Yorkshire [Salvain] - North
Duffield.
17. William Paley Baildon, F.S.A., "Notes on the Religious and Secular
Houses
of Yorkshire, Vol. I," The Yorkshire Archaeological Society Record
Series,
Vol. XVII, Printed for the Society, 1894.
18. Richard Holmes, "Wapentake of Osgoldcross," The Yorkshire
Archaeological
Journal, Vol. X (1889), London: printed for the Association by
Bradbury, Agnew
and Co., Whitefriars, E.C., pp. 250 et seq.
19. John de Kirkby, "The survey of the county of York taken by John
de
Kirkby, commonly called Kirkby's Inquest," also inquisitions of
knights' fees, the
Nomina villarum for Yorkshire, and an appendix of illustrative
documents,
Durham: Pub. for the Society by Andrews and Co., 1867.
20. Brian Timms, "Glover's Roll (B1)," H S London, Rolls of Arms,
Henry III,
Aspilogia 2, Society of Antiquaries, London, 1967,
http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/, Dated c1252 or later., B1 - Cooke's
version.
21. "Calendar of the Patent Rolls," preserved in the Public Record
Office,
Edward I. A.D. 1272-1281, London: for the Public Record Office.
22. K. J. Allison, ed., "A History of the County of York, East
Riding,"
Oxford: published for the Institute of Historical Research, Oxford
Univ. Press,
1969, Vol. III.
23. Alfred S. Ellis, "Yorkshire Deeds," The Yorkshire Archaeological
Journal,
Vol. XII (1893), London: printed for the Association by Bradbury,
Agnew and
Co., Whitefriars, E.C.
24. Douglas Richardson, "Identity of Margery, wife of Maurice de
Berkeley
(died 1347)," August 4, 2002, GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
25. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower,
Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers,
London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
('Hastynges..' of
Fenwick, co. Yorks.), 'The Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563
and 1564'.
26. Rosie Bevan, , SGM, 11 March 2002, cites
Farrer, Early Yorkshire Charters.


* John P. Ravilious





On Mar 13, 11:39 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Tuesday, 13 March, 2007

Dear David,

Following on your query of 7 March, below is a chart of the early
generations of the Foliot family of Yorkshire (later of Elsing and
Gressenhall, Norfolk, &c.) as I have it currently reconstructed. This
is a slight revision of an earlier version, in that William Foliot (d.
after 1129/30) had known issue by Agnes de Arches as her 3rd husband,
but whose heir (Jordan) and other sons were evidently by an earlier
wife.

I will post a detailed pedigree following on this, which will
provide more details concerning documentation of these generations.
The placement of Richard Foliot (husband of Beatrice Bardolf) as shown
below is shown with broken lines (_ _ _ _ ) indicating his parentage
is conjectural, but is most likely based on the chronology, and the
landholding and onomastic evidence in hand.

Cheers,

John *

3> <2> <1
NN = William = (2) Agnes de = Robert de = Herbert
(1) I Foliot I Arches I Fauconberg de St.
I d. aft I I Quintin
I 1129/30 I I
I ____I________ I_________________
I I I I
I William Hugh Piers de
I Foliot Foliot Fauconberg
I fl. 1143/54 of Rise and Carfoss
I d. bef 1166
I______________________
_____________________I__________________________
I I I I
Jordan Foliot = Beatrice Henry Payn Richard
'held three fees I
of Henry de Lacy I
of Pontefract in I
1166 ' [DD] I
________________I_____ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
Jordan Henry Richard = Beatrice
Foliot Foliot Foliot I Bardolf
d. bef 25 I
Jul 1206 I
I
I
Sir Jordan Foliot
d. bef 5 Mar 1235/6
'held one fee of Roger de
Lacy (1212) '

I

I
Sir Richard Foliot
of Grimston & c.
d. Mar 1299

* John P. Ravilious

On Mar 7, 8:03 am, "David Hepworth" <d...@kirkleespark.com> wrote:



Has anyone done work on the earlier Foliot family - especially those
of Fenwick, co Yorks?

Thanks

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gjest

Re: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 mar 2007 18:17:02

In a message dated 3/13/2007 9:03:10 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
designeconomic@yahoo.com writes:

And because there was no wine in Netherhavyn, Richard
Couchyn (A Juror age 52 and more), rode a black horse
to Ambresbury to fetch it, was thrown on his way back,
and a jug full, or nigh half a gallon, was spilt etc.



Or perhaps he just drank the wine on the way back ;)
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

Andrew and Inge

RE: testa karl

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 13 mar 2007 18:55:50

Thanks!

I got it once I had the full name.

Regards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: John Watson [mailto:WatsonJohnM@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 13 March 2007 3:16 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: testa karl


Available on Google Books

Regards,

John


On Mar 7, 5:32 am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
"Andrew and Inge" <andrew.en.i...@skynet.be> wrote in
messagenews:mailman.4247.1173200820.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...



Hello

I am looking for help on an abbreviation: Testa Karl.

See
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... uery=how...
lancaster

1354

John son of Roger de Lancaster of Howgill Castle made his will on Friday
after the Feast of St. Hilary, January 13, 1353-4, in which he desires
to
be
buried in the chapel of St. Cuthbert of Milburn. To which chapel he
leaves
a
chasuble and twelve silver marks for a priest to pray for his soul for
two
years. Testa. Karl., p. 3.

Any ideas how to find out more about this document?

The abbreviation is for _Testamenta karleolensia: the Series of Wills from
the Prae-reformation Registers of the Bishops of Carlisle, 1353-1386_,
edited by R.S. Ferguson (1893).

Peter Stewart

Alan R Grey

Re: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

Legg inn av Alan R Grey » 13 mar 2007 20:01:00

paul bulkley wrote:

<deletion>
John Bulkeley (A juror age 50 and more), William
Cosen, and Joan Bulcley widow being gossips. The
godfathers disputed which of them should give the
child his own name, and William Cosen to have the
naming agreed to give the said John Bulkley a gallon
of wine which he paid;

deletion
The name of Bulkley being spelt three different ways
within a short document is a reminder of the problem
of identifying individuals with certainty.


It is true that variable spelling is an ever-present "problem" in

old/ancient documents. Most names from medieval times I've seen have
anywhere from 3 or so to any number of different spellings (even Grey
can be Greye, Gray and Graye etc). Bulkley must have a rather large
number of spellings. Our obsession with "correct" spelling is a recent
concept in the greater scheme of things. In the past, all that really
mattered was the broad pattern of consonants, vowel sounds and
syllables, the key markers of pronunciation. Vowels are often
interchangeable, depending on accent, and there are common consonant
pairs that are also interchangeable, such as [c-k], [b-p], [f-v] etc.
These things ought not to create an issue for us, any more than it
created an issue for them. If one accepts interchangeability and
addition (within reason), plays close attention to abbreviation marks,
and is careful in Latin-English transpositions, then there ought to be
few problems. In this case, while it is interesting that the name is
spelled three different ways in one document, sometimes I think that is
almost the norm, and the names here are clearly spelled "identically"
(for the time). Thus we have: [Bul] [c/k] [ley] ... a very precise
sequence and "unquestionably" the same name.

Alan R Grey

Yvonne Purdy

RE: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

Legg inn av Yvonne Purdy » 13 mar 2007 22:12:02

Hi Paul,

You wrote:

From: paul bulkley [mailto:designeconomic@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 March 2007 15:56
To: gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com
Subject: Godfather John Bulkley 1472
John Bulkeley (A juror age 50 and more), William

Cosen, and Joan Bulcley widow being gossips.
<

I'm interested in the term 'gossip'. Do you know how old it is, and what is
it's meaning(s)? I have a 1608 will with the term, but thought it meant
friend/confidant of the testator, but from your context, it looks as 'tho it
could also mean godparent?

I would appreciate any input.

Regards, Yvonne

wjhonson

Re: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

Legg inn av wjhonson » 13 mar 2007 22:41:16

On Mar 13, 1:12 pm, "Yvonne Purdy" <v...@yvonnepurdy.free-
online.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Paul,

I'm interested in the term 'gossip'. Do you know how old it is, and what is
it's meaning(s)? I have a 1608 will with the term, but thought it meant
friend/confidant of the testator, but from your context, it looks as 'tho it
could also mean godparent?

I would appreciate any input.

Regards, Yvonne

Yes Yvonne go here
http://www.google.com/search?e=LabratCo ... Dgodparent

and you'll get a lot of informatin on the word "gossip" meaning
godparent

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 mar 2007 23:27:02

Dear John,
What a charming pair Michael Mitton and George Cleeves
were, scoundrels both.with a name like Michael, one might think him a Catholic,
yet some families still did employ Michael as a name as well as such papish
favorites as Paul, Peter and Gabriel regardless of religious sect.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 14 mar 2007 01:17:33

In article <mailman.165.1173820219.3661.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Yvonne Purdy" <von@yvonnepurdy.free-online.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Paul,

You wrote:

From: paul bulkley [mailto:designeconomic@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 March 2007 15:56
To: gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com
Subject: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

John Bulkeley (A juror age 50 and more), William
Cosen, and Joan Bulcley widow being gossips.


I'm interested in the term 'gossip'. Do you know how old it is, and what is
it's meaning(s)? I have a 1608 will with the term, but thought it meant
friend/confidant of the testator, but from your context, it looks as 'tho it
could also mean godparent?

Well, 'gossip' meant, in the 17th century (to paraphrase the first
definition in the OED), 'one with whom one had contracted affinity
through sponsorship at baptism', which could be used for godparent and
godchild, but could also be used for godparent and birth-parent of
godchild. This was important in canon law, since people linked in such
a way could not subsequently marry.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Gjest

Re: The Princely House of O'Malley

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 mar 2007 13:37:02

Leo,
I think I wrote to you once before about Grace O’Malley (the anglicised
version of a number of variants of her name)
Grace existed, but is also prominent in Irish folk law, it is difficult to
separate fact from fiction. Grace was suppose to have had an audience with
queen Elizabeth, and treated her as an equal, much to the amazement of
Elizabeth’s ministers. There only common tongue was Latin.
The is a recent book about her “Granuaile, Ireland’s Pirate Queen, Grace O’
Malley c. 1530 – 1603â€

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 14 mar 2007 13:58:12

In message of 13 Mar, "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

Tuesday, 13 March, 2007


Dear David,

Following on your query of 7 March, below is a chart of the early
generations of the Foliot family of Yorkshire (later of Elsing and
Gressenhall, Norfolk, &c.) as I have it currently reconstructed. This
is a slight revision of an earlier version, in that William Foliot (d.
after 1129/30) had known issue by Agnes de Arches as her 3rd husband,
but whose heir (Jordan) and other sons were evidently by an earlier
wife.

I will post a detailed pedigree following on this, which will
provide more details concerning documentation of these generations.
The placement of Richard Foliot (husband of Beatrice Bardolf) as shown
below is shown with broken lines (_ _ _ _ ) indicating his parentage
is conjectural, but is most likely based on the chronology, and the
landholding and onomastic evidence in hand.

Many thanks for going through this again and it is particularly timely
for me as I spent a day or so last week trying to make sense of the
early Foliots - and giving up! I have gone through this at some length
but have run out of time to do a proper job here.

In short, C T Clay in his Early Yorkshire Families p. 35 opines that
this Richard was the son of Jordan II in the line of eldest sons of
William who m. (2) Agnes de Arches.

His reasoning is, as he freely admits, inadequate but he gives as his
reasons (a) the descent of core properties to this Richard and (b) a
line of births at 25 year intervals which makes some sense, viz:

William
|
Jordan I, b. c. 1120-25
|
Jordan II, b. c. 1150
|
Richard, b. c. 1175 (m. Beatrice Bardolf)
|
Jordan, b. c. 1200 (the Bardolf heir)
|
Sir Richard, b. c. 1225
|
Sir Jordan, b. c. 1248 (1st lord Foliot)

While Jordan II can easily be left out of this line, it results in
a couple of generations of 37.5 year intervals instead of the 25 year
gaps he proposed. Unless there is some firm evidence to the contrary, I
would incline towards this account of Clay's while agreeing the while
that it is inadequately based.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 14 mar 2007 15:01:32

Dear John,
What a charming pair Michael Mitton and George Cleeves
were, scoundrels both.with a name like Michael, one might think him a

Hi James,

Yes, they seem to have been quite the duo. Mitton seduced a young
girl, got her pregnant, and seems not to have been punished at all
(while she killed the infant and was hanged at Boston, I believe).
Although Mitton _does_ sort of suddenly disappear from the record ...
His father-in-law, Cleeve, was aware of "_some_ adulteries committed
and yet unpunished" on the part of Mitton; so I wonder if Cleeve may
have had some hand in a private retribution--early Maine being a
complete wilderness where people could probably be easily
"disappeared."

Here is some of what _Great Migration Begins_ has to say about Geo.
Cleeve:

ASSOCIATIONS: THOMAS LEWIS and George Cleeve were partners as vintners
and taverners in Shrewsbury [ NEHGR 101:16], and undoubtedly hatched
their plans for New England settlement in that venue.
COMMENTS: Cleeve's last father-in-law once described his career as
"fleeting and shifting from city to city, from country to country and
from place to place and prospering in none" [ NEHGR 102:174].
For his first residence in New England Cleeve chose Spurwink,
believing that Sir Ferdinando Gorges had promised him a grant of land
in that area. When John Winter arrived in 1632, he regarded Cleeve as
an interloper and had him ejected [ Trelawny Papers 32, 101-02]. The
dispute between Cleeve and Winter continued for many years.
From his earliest involvement with New England, George Cleeve
desired to control parts of Maine. Along the road to his short term as
"Deputy President" of Lygonia he caused considerable controversy and
pain for the inhabitants and dozens of concerned letters and
depositions back and forth with Massachusetts Bay, Richard Vines in
Saco, and even Sir Ferdinando Gorges in England.
In a letter dated London 15 March 1636/7, Matthew Craddock wrote to
John Winthrop saying:
I may not omit to acquaint you with one passage touching the general
namely of one Mr. Cleve and Mr. Tucker who this last year were with me
and pretended great good to our plantation and great favor they could
have at Court and desired my approbation of somewhat they intended
whereto I could say nothing till I saw what it was, whereupon they
brought me a writing which having seen I utterly disliked and
disavowed for having ought to do therein, but taking it to peruse
before I would give my answer caused a copy to be taken which I send
you herewith [ WP 3:379].
Mr. "Clieve's" good friend Thomas Tayler wrote to Winthrop from
Bristol 25 March 1637 regarding the spendthrift ways of his son
Humphrey Taylor in New England and entrusting the letter and power of
attorney to "my good friend Mr. George Cleive" who "was here present
and by his advice made bold with you [Winthrop] also" [ WP 3:383].
This is the only letter casting Cleeve in a favorable light.
In a letter dated Ashton Phillippes 23 August 1637, Sir Ferdinando
Gorges reveals his discovery of Cleeve's duplicity and his decisions
in the matter to Sir Henry Vane, John Winthrop and others:
May it please you, having received several letters from my servant
Vines, and others, of the general dislike conceived against Mr.
Cleeves for having to do with any my affairs, by reason (as it is
affirmed) of the miscarriage of him, as well towards myself in
particular, as the wrongs he offered them by his misreports to me of
their miscarriage in their places, whereby he hath intruded himself
into my good opinion so far forth, as to be joined with you in matters
of so great trust being so unworthy.... In the meanwhile let me tell
you, that being at London this last term, and daily in company with
the Lords I heard nothing of the commission Cleeves assured me was
afoot, contrary to the expectation I had thereof, upon confidence of
Mr. Cleeves report to me ... But a little to excuse him therein, for
that it might be he was so persuaded upon such promises as Moorton his
agent assured him, who since is wholely cashiered from intermeddling
with any our affairs hereafter, but this I write to you in particular
that you may take private notice thereof, and how much I am offended
with myself for being over credulous of another, neither needs it seem
strange it should be so, consideration being had to the sincerity of
one, and the fraud of others [ WP 492-93].
Richard Vines wrote a definitive letter to John Winthrop dated Saco
25 January 1640/1, characterizing George Cleeve for posterity:
Sir, Three or four years since Mr. Cleives being in England procured a
writ out of the Star Chamber office, to command Mr. Edward Godfrey,
Mr. John Winter, Mr. Purches, and myself to appear at the Council
Table, to answer some supposed wrongs. Mr. Godfrey went over to answer
for himself, Mr. Winter and myself, and out of the same Court brings a
writ to command Cleives to pay unto him £20 for his charges, which he
refuses to do. Now Sir Ferdinando Gorges gave me order to see Mr.
Godfrey have right in this case. Cleives says we have nothing to do,
neither have we any power to levy money here upon any writs that come
out of England, for he will answer it from whence it came. I shall
humbly intreat your advice herein, what course is to be taken that I
may free myself from blame and the malice of Cleives, who is a
firebrand of dissension and hath set the whole Province together by
the ears [ WP 4:308-09].
Edward Winslow seconded the opinion in a letter to Winthrop dated
Careswell 7 January 1643/4 in which he says that Mr. Alexander Rigby
[who purchased the Plough Patent] had by misfortune happened "to light
on two of the errantest known knaves that ever trod on New English
shore to be his agents East and West as Cleves and Morton" [ WP
4:428]. Richard Vines called Cleeve the author of "seditious
proceedings" and of false reports of the death of Sir Ferdinando
Gorges "in his flight into Wales" and had occasion to write many times
to Winthrop regarding Cleeve's threats on his life and liberty [ WP
4:430, 5:40]. That Cleeve indulged in many other irregular activities
is evident from a constant stream of letters and appeals by Richard
Vines and others [ WP 4:308-09, 433-34, 438, 5:67, 75-77, 259].
Francis Robinson and others swore that they never signed the petition
that George Cleeve took to Parliament against Mr. Richard Vines "until
the said George Cleaves did come last out of England" at court 21
October 1645 [ MPCR 1:88].
Of the few surviving letters written by George Cleeve, all are
inflammatory or slanderous. He called Mr. Jordan "a minister of
antichrist, ... who doth not only calumniate and slander the
parliament in England with vile reproachful terms, as rebellious,
factious, traiterous persons against the king, but also belteth out
his blasphemy against the churches of Christ in this land, charging
them with schism and faction for fasting and praying' [ WP 4:434].
Winthrop answered all with delaying tactics and fair words, not
wishing to deal closely with the fractious Cleeve [ WP 5:66-67].
In lesser matters, Cleeve was constantly in the courts [ MPCR 2, 4,
45, 47-48, 56-58, 62-63, 65, 82-83, 316, 318, 2:72-75, 89, 148-49,
362, 380; YLR 1:86-87]. He was second to sign allegiance to
Massachusetts Bay 13 July 1658 [ MPCR 2:71] and among those to ask for
the protection of the Massachusetts Bay in the petition of October
1662 [ MPCR 1:199]. He was presented 4 July 1659 for "denying to vote
for Magistrates and for saying if the people would vote for Mis Clarke
to be a witch, he would vote" [ MPCR 2:82]. Francis Small was
presented for saying that "Mr. George Cleeve was a traitor ... and
that Cleeve said that the King was an atheist, a papist and a damned
wretch in hell" but it was proved that "Mr. Cleeve so spake" [ MPCR
2:142].
For a brief time it was thought that George Cleeve had married four
times in less than a decade, but it has been determined that there
were two men of the name of almost the same age in London, and two of
the marriages apparently belong to the man who did not come to New
England [ NEHGR 140:180-81; GMC26 36]:
(1) St Peter's Cornhill, London 22 September 1614 Alice Shortoll of
Saint Saviour's [ NEHGR 140:180].
(2) say 1616 Frances Olney, widow of Thomas Olney [Chancery Court
suit filed October 1620 cited in NEHGR 102:181].
Richard Tucker did not marry a daughter of George Cleeve [ GDMNH
698].

See http://www.newenglandancestors.org/rese ... sp?print=1

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 14 mar 2007 15:08:17

I love this statement:

He was presented 4 July 1659 for "denying to vote for Magistrates and
for saying if the people would vote for Mis Clarke to be a witch, he
would vote" [MPCR 2:82].

Now, who was Mis Clarke?

Gjest

Re: de la Bere

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 mar 2007 16:30:05

Doug Smith kindly referred me to the website of David Nash Ford as providing
some useful information on the de la Beres. But if I have found the right
website at
mayfamilyhistory.co.uk/abear/
I regret to say that I have found it inaccurate and unhelpful, devoid of
reference to original sources, and often plain wrong.
This is the more depressing because I have found on a google search that
there are numerous references to David Nash Ford and his work on the
Abear/Delabere families. Unless this work is challenged, widespread confusion is likely
to arise.

For today I intend to confine my detailed criticisms to his account of
Weobley castle, the site of which he asserts to have "almost certainly held by the
de la Bere family" by the thirteenth century. Mentioning unspecified
documents as identifying a David de la Bere as steward to the De Braose Lord of
Gower in 1292 and 1304, and his son Adam de la Bere who "witnessed a deed signed
at Weobley" in 1318, he goes on to mention that this David "was still in
Wales at this time" [1318] "and was therefore the most likely builder of Weobley
castle". This astonishing non sequitur is perhaps partly explicable by the
unfortunate fact that DNF places Weobley in what he calls "the remote and
inaccessible Gower peninsula", whereas it is of course in the benign and pleasant
vale some 7 or 8 miles south-west of Leominster.
If I may briefly summarise the known facts which are inconsistent with DNF's
assertions, making use in my absence from London of C.J.Robinson's work
"Castles of Herefordshire :-
1. Weobley is not in the Gower peninsula, as I just stated, but in
Herefordshire
2. The castle there was certainly in existence in the reign of king John,
and possibly for a century earlier:- see Gesta Reg. Steph. 61, 69, cited by
Robinson
3. The castle was probably built and certainly owned by successive Lords de
Laci. It came into the hands of the de Verdon family by the marriage of
Walter de Laci's son Gilbert de Laci's daughter Margery to John le Botiller de
Verdon
4. On the death in 1316 without male heirs of John's grandson Theobald de
Verdon "dominus de Weobley" - see the letter to Pope Boniface VIII referred to
by Robinson- , who was the second and last Baron de Verdon, the castle was
allotted to one of his co-heiresses, his daughter Margaret, who married Sir
John Crophull as her third husband. Theobald's IPM is at C135/7/1, and a fine
of 31 Edw III, as cited by Robinson, records Sir John Crophull and his wife
Margery sc.Margaret, as lords of the manor of Weobley, held in chief
5.. Margaret's second husband William le Blount had combined with her to
settle the castle and manor of Weobley on trusts which (in the absence of issue
of their marriage) enured to the benefit of Margaret's heirs: Fines 7 Edw III,
35, cited by Robinson
6. C143/376/6 :John Crophill, knight, to grant the manor of Newbold-Verdon
(except knights' fees and the advowsons of churches) to Thomas Crophill his
son, Sibilla wife of the said Thomas, and the heirs male of their bodies, with
remainder to the said John and his heirs, retaining rent in Cotesbach and the
manor of Hemington. Leic.
7. Thomas Crophull , King's esquire, son of Sir John and Margery, dvp 1282,
having married Sibyl, daughter of Sir John de la Bere
[This is the first substantiated occurrence of a de la Bere in connection
with Weobley Castle, but only as the father in law of a potential heir of
Weobley, and therefore grandfather of the eventual heir}
8. Thomas and Sibyl's daughter and sole heiress , aged 12 in 1383, married
(1) Sir Walter Devereux, slain at the battle of Pilleth in 1402, and (2) John
Merbury. Sir Walter proved his wife's age in 1386, and therefore had then
livery of her lands.
9. CPR March 23 1417. [cited courtesy of Professor Boynton of the University
of Iowa]. Licence, for £20 paid in the hanaper by John Merbury,esquire, for
him and Agnes his wife to enfeoff Geoffrey Harley, esquire, Richard Hulle,
esquire, and John Monyton of the castle and manor of Webbeley co. Hereford and
the manors of Cotesbache and Neubolt Verdon, co.Leicester, held of the king
in chief, and for these to regrant the same to them and the heirs of their
bodies, with remainder to the right heirs of Agnes
8. Weobley thereafter decended, in the absence of heirs of Agnes by John
Merbury, in the Devereux family, later Earls of Essex, and through a younger
branch Viscounts Hereford.

As I see it, the account of an alleged De le Bere construction, ownership,
or inheritance of Weobley Castle is entirely bogus- much as I (as a descendant
of Sir John de la Bere's daughter Sibyl, married to Thomas Crophull) would
have liked to benefit from DNF's endeavours.
MM

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 14 mar 2007 17:00:47

I suspect that Geo. Cleeve's first wife was nee Alice Milan. _GMB_
says the following about his first marriage:

MARRIAGE: (1) London by license 17 October 1612 Alice (_____) Abrook,
widow of William Abrook, born about 1581 (aged 31 at marriage [NEHGR
140:180]); she died by 1618.

Notice this record in the extracted IGI:

Dorney, Buckingham
--Wm. Abrooke to Alice Milan, 7 Sept. 1598

If she was truly born in 1581, this could be her first marriage at
around age 17 or 18.

Looks like there is some Visitation reference to the Abrook family of
Dorney ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC3 ... ook&pgis=1

I think the source is the 1634 Bucks. Visitation. Anyone want to
check?


Yvonne Purdy

RE: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

Legg inn av Yvonne Purdy » 14 mar 2007 17:28:02

Hi Will,

Many thanks for your reply and help. That rather changes things for me!
Kind regards,
Yvonne

On Mar 13, 1:12 pm, "Yvonne Purdy" <v...@yvonnepurdy.free-
online.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Paul,

I'm interested in the term 'gossip'. Do you know how old it is, and what
is
it's meaning(s)? I have a 1608 will with the term, but thought it meant
friend/confidant of the testator, but from your context, it looks as 'tho
it
could also mean godparent?

I would appreciate any input.

Regards, Yvonne

From: wjhonson [mailto:wjhonson@aol.com]

Sent: 13 March 2007 21:41
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

Yes Yvonne go here
http://www.google.com/search?e=LabratCo ... S207US208&
q=gossip%3Dgodparent

and you'll get a lot of informatin on the word "gossip" meaning
godparent

Will Johnson
<<

Yvonne Purdy

RE: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

Legg inn av Yvonne Purdy » 14 mar 2007 17:29:05

Hi Nat,

Thank you for your reply, and helpful description. Much appreciated.

Kind regards,
Yvonne

In article <mailman.165.1173820219.3661.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Yvonne Purdy" <von@yvonnepurdy.free-online.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Paul,

You wrote:

From: paul bulkley [mailto:designeconomic@yahoo.com]
Sent: 13 March 2007 15:56
To: gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com
Subject: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

John Bulkeley (A juror age 50 and more), William
Cosen, and Joan Bulcley widow being gossips.


I'm interested in the term 'gossip'. Do you know how old it is, and what
is
it's meaning(s)? I have a 1608 will with the term, but thought it meant
friend/confidant of the testator, but from your context, it looks as 'tho
it
could also mean godparent?

From: Nathaniel Taylor [mailto:nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net]

Sent: 14 March 2007 00:18
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Godfather John Bulkley 1472

Well, 'gossip' meant, in the 17th century (to paraphrase the first
definition in the OED), 'one with whom one had contracted affinity
through sponsorship at baptism', which could be used for godparent and
godchild, but could also be used for godparent and birth-parent of
godchild. This was important in canon law, since people linked in such
a way could not subsequently marry.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net
<<

Gjest

Re: de la Bere

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 mar 2007 17:31:41

On Mar 14, 4:27 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Doug Smith kindly referred me to the website of David Nash Ford as providing
some useful information on the de la Beres. But if I have found the right
website at
mayfamilyhistory.co.uk/abear/

For today I intend to confine my detailed criticisms to his account of
Weobley castle, the site of which he asserts to have "almost certainly held by the
de la Bere family" by the thirteenth century. Mentioning unspecified
documents as identifying a David de la Bere as steward to the De Braose Lord of
Gower in 1292 and 1304, and his son Adam de la Bere who "witnessed a deed signed
at Weobley" in 1318, he goes on to mention that this David "was still in
Wales at this time" [1318] "and was therefore the most likely builder of Weobley
castle". This astonishing non sequitur is perhaps partly explicable by the
unfortunate fact that DNF places Weobley in what he calls "the remote and
inaccessible Gower peninsula", whereas it is of course in the benign and pleasant
vale some 7 or 8 miles south-west of Leominster.

1. Weobley is not in the Gower peninsula, as I just stated, but in
Herefordshire


MM

It's strange that you don't appear to have googled "Weobley Castle"
for if you had you would have found the many websites, including
photographs, of the castle in the Gower peninsular. My modern map
shows it as a castle only, not as a place name that appears in the
index. It is a mile west of Llanrhidian.

Many websites describe the Gower Peninsular Weobley Castle as having
been built by the de la Bere family, albeit without citations.


I suppose the question must be is it you rather than David Nash Ford
who has confused the two Weobley Castles, or perhaps are you both
correct in associating the de la Bere family with both Weobley,
Herefordshire, and Weobley Castle, Gower Peninsular.


Agnes (St John) Rodney, daughter of Sir John St John, and
granddaughter of Elizabeth (de la Bere) and Sir Oliver St John, in her
will dated 5 Oct 1420 (TNA PCC ref PROB 112B) "Agnes of Wybley Castle
desired that she be buried at Lanredian near her ancestor". Neither
the Rodneys nor the St Johns were associated with Weobley Castle,
Gower peninsular, so my assumption, which may be totally wrong, is
that the ancestor that Agnes was referring to was Elizabeth de la
Bere.

Possibly an apology to DNF is in order (and perhaps a rethink of your
de la Bere ancestors now you know there is a Weobley Castle in the
Gower Peninsular)

David

John P. Ravilious

Re: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 14 mar 2007 17:44:27

Dear Tim,

Thanks for that post, and the reasoning (chronological and
otherwise) concerning the placement of Richard Foliot.

The primary reasons why I find that Richard was more likely
brother than son of Jordan 'II' hinge on what chronological detail we
know concering Richard's son, Jordan 'III'. As I noted in the
detailed pedigree, Jordan 'III' quitclaimed certain rights as the
dower of Beatrice, widow of
Robert de Fenwich [I believe this was his mother] in 30 acres at
Fenwick, co. Yorks. 25 July 1206:

' cclvi. York, the day of Saint James the apostle (25 July 1206).
Between Beatrice, who was the wife of Robert de Fenwich, plaintiff,
and Jordan Foliot, tenant, concerning the third part of thirty acres
of land with appurtenances in Fenwick, which she was claiming
against Jordan himself as her reasonable dower which belongs to
her from the gift of the aforesaid Robert, formerly her husband,
in Fenwick. Whereupon the plea was etc., namely that the
aforesaid Beatrice has remised etc. all right etc. in the
aforementioned third part of thirty acres of land with appurtenances
to the aforementioned Jordan and the heirs of his body forever. And
for this quitclaim etc. the aforementioned Jordan has granted and
quitclaimed the same Beatrice the moiety of the entire crop of
the aforementioned land for this present year. ' [Yorkshire Feet
of Fines]

Clay (pp. 34-35) identified this Jordan as Jordan 'II', whom I
show as brother of Richard and uncle of this Jordan Foliot. I think
the chronology does not work well with this: if the Beatrice of the
1206 Fine was the mother of Jordan 'II' [also named Beatrice] she
would, by your reconstruction, have likely been aged say 75-85 years
at that time, and Jordan 'II' aged likely 55 or more by your
construction. If my identification of the Jordan Foliot of 1206 is
correct, he was obviously born say 1185 or before (of age in 1206),
which would likely push his father Richard back to being born say
1160.


Jordan I, b. c. 1120-25
_________I__________________________
| I
Jordan II, b. c. 1150 Richard b. ca. 1160
(m. Beatrice Bardolf)
___________________________________I
|
Jordan, b. c. 1180-1185 (the Bardolf heir)
|
Sir Richard, b. c. 1225
|
Sir Jordan, b. c. 1248 (1st lord Foliot)



Hence, my version to date.

Cheers,

John







On Mar 14, 8:58 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 13 Mar, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:





Tuesday, 13 March, 2007

Dear David,

Following on your query of 7 March, below is a chart of the early
generations of the Foliot family of Yorkshire (later of Elsing and
Gressenhall, Norfolk, &c.) as I have it currently reconstructed. This
is a slight revision of an earlier version, in that William Foliot (d.
after 1129/30) had known issue by Agnes de Arches as her 3rd husband,
but whose heir (Jordan) and other sons were evidently by an earlier
wife.

I will post a detailed pedigree following on this, which will
provide more details concerning documentation of these generations.
The placement of Richard Foliot (husband of Beatrice Bardolf) as shown
below is shown with broken lines (_ _ _ _ ) indicating his parentage
is conjectural, but is most likely based on the chronology, and the
landholding and onomastic evidence in hand.

Many thanks for going through this again and it is particularly timely
for me as I spent a day or so last week trying to make sense of the
early Foliots - and giving up! I have gone through this at some length
but have run out of time to do a proper job here.

In short, C T Clay in his Early Yorkshire Families p. 35 opines that
this Richard was the son of Jordan II in the line of eldest sons of
William who m. (2) Agnes de Arches.

His reasoning is, as he freely admits, inadequate but he gives as his
reasons (a) the descent of core properties to this Richard and (b) a
line of births at 25 year intervals which makes some sense, viz:

William
|
Jordan I, b. c. 1120-25
|
Jordan II, b. c. 1150
|
Richard, b. c. 1175 (m. Beatrice Bardolf)
|
Jordan, b. c. 1200 (the Bardolf heir)
|
Sir Richard, b. c. 1225
|
Sir Jordan, b. c. 1248 (1st lord Foliot)

While Jordan II can easily be left out of this line, it results in
a couple of generations of 37.5 year intervals instead of the 25 year
gaps he proposed. Unless there is some firm evidence to the contrary, I
would incline towards this account of Clay's while agreeing the while
that it is inadequately based.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gjest

Re: Re: de la Bere

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 mar 2007 22:06:02

david 11000ccarca very helpfully wrote with a suggestion that I should have
googled "Weobley Castle", which I have now done. Lo and behold, it appears
that there is a rather splendid Weobley Castle on the north shore of the Gower
peninsula, with de la Bere associations, as well as the far less impressive
Weobley Castle at Weobley, Herefordshire.
I shall send an apology to David Nash Ford, in case he does not read this
group, and I also apologise to the group in general for posting a (partially)
misguided criticism of his work.
Meanwhile my thanks to David for pointing out the inadequacy of my post, and
for encouraging me to rethink the de la Bere history
MM

John Brandon

Re: Michael Mitton, gent.

Legg inn av John Brandon » 15 mar 2007 21:27:21

Mitton described as a "gentle sportsman" ...

http://books.google.com/books?vid=0pbJQ ... +sportsmen

Gjest

Re: The Princely House of O'Malley

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 mar 2007 23:01:02

Dear Paul,
Niall I was not the first legendary Ard Righ (High King) of
Ireland. that honor belongs to Eremon supposedly about 1200 BC or shortly
thereafter. Niall may have ruled in fifth century AD and was shortly succeeded by
the Ard Righ Laoguire who was ruler when Saint Patrick began his conversion
of the Irish.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA



************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Tony Hoskins

Re: Katherine Carey Knollys - Henry VIII's daughter: new evi

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 17 mar 2007 17:33:43

Thanks, Nat.

Of course, no one ever said the proof was conclusive (after all, my
article's title ended with a "?"), but it was a very weighty case then -
and far weightier today. Pending the arrival of "conclusiveness"
(whatever that might be and however constituted) the case is far too
important to have been relegated to the limbo of "someday someone should
look into this further, but let's hold off on publication till it's
beyond question." I for one enjoy the imperceptible stages by which
evidence accrues, til the scale tips evermore one way or the other!
Consensus will, I feel sure, arrive in time on this case.

For the record, after having read my article back in 1997, these were a
few comments from noted Tudor historians:

Wallace MacCaffrey (Harvard and Trinity Hall, Cambridge) [quoted in the
London Daily Telegraph, 27 May 1997], "The evidence as to the dating
is circumstantial, but it is very plausible."

Dale Hoak, (William and Mary), "You are on to something big!".

Retha Warnicke (author of _The Rise and Fall of Anne Boleyn; family
politics at the court of Henry VIII_,), "I believe Henry VIII did in
fact father Mary Boleyn's Carey children."

You mentioned Marshall Kirk, from the start, an appreciative supporter
of this project. How I regret his absence now, and how he would have
loved this new discovery!

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Some refs to New England

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mar 2007 22:36:03

On the subject of MedLands I would like to remind the newsgroup that some of
the material there is stated without proper citation to the members of *this*
newsgroup who originally pointed out the issues.

I'm sure in my database I do the same thing myself. Whether I'm rushed or
being sloppy, I don't cite properly every primary and secondary source and
give credit where credit is due.

However putting that to one side, *when* this was brought to the attention
of Cawley and those who published him, he ... did... nothing.

No response, no attempt to correct it, no apology, no anything.

I valued the postings of Chris Phillips as much as anyone, but the balanced
view of this situation is that something was truly amiss here. I don't think
Peter caused Chris to leave anymore than I did. But I think it was
justified to point out the situation for what it was. Just like pointing out that
"mal" in any language derived from Latin be it Italian, Spanish, or English is
probably somehow related to "bad".

Now if someone takes enough exception, they may choose to leave. They may
also choose to return. Each person is responsible for their own choices.

Will Johnson



************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: Early Welfs and Azzo II

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 mar 2007 22:40:03

In a message dated 3/17/2007 1:20:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
PIPPHILLIPS18@aol.com writes:

You presume to speak for all SGM readers, remarkable! Carr P. Collins'
documentation for this lineage is "Royal Genealogies", pps, 514 and
666; so what is your opinion of his source? I think "Royal
Genealogies" with all of its problems is still a far better source
than you!


I'm fairly sure Peter only speaks for Peter. That doesn't stop him from
having strong opinions. As you well know "Royal Genealogies" is only as good as
their research. When secondary sources conflict, you cannot solve the
problem by consulting more weak secondary sources, esp ones that have as their
main goal to connect people in new and surprising ways.

A better approach would be to consult some of the underlying sources listed
and see what they say. I would suggest that if this line were actually
accurate, we'd have seen a great deal more of it.

Will Johnson



************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Tony Hoskins

Re: George Washington

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 17 mar 2007 23:47:15

Do you refer to his ancestry, Leo? I might be able to help.

Tony


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Leo van de Pas

Re: George Washington

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 18 mar 2007 10:08:20

Dear Le,
Many thanks.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Le Bateman" <LeBateman@ATT.Net>
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: George Washington


The Sons of the American Revolution probably have a great deal on George
Washington. http://www.sar.org My Hardwicks were related to him by marriage. If
I
can locate information on the children of John Washington and Frances
Gerard
this will make William Hardwick's daughter Elizabeth Hardidge a
half-sister
to the children Frances may have had with Col. John Washington. George
Washington's great-grandfather.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:42 PM
Subject: George Washington


Does anyone know a person or place with specialised knowledge about George
Washington? Someone is trying to verify information.
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


Gjest

Re: George Washington

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mar 2007 14:43:02

Leo,

Burke's American Families has a few pages on the Washington sometime of
Sulgrave Manor and formerly of Mt Vernon and includes George. This has been pub.
as a separate book by Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, but was
originally part of Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry,
16th Ed. 1939. All the usual caveats apply to Burkes.

Adrian




In a message dated 17/03/2007 22:43:12 GMT Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

Does anyone know a person or place with specialised knowledge about George
Washington? Someone is trying to verify information.
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Mother of Hugh Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mar 2007 15:15:51

Dear Skip,
Keats-Rohan actually said that King Henry I of England
acceded the throne in 1087 ? He didn`t. William II Rufus was king from 1087-1100, in
the latter year King Henry I succeeded him.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA





************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Mother of Hugh Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 18 mar 2007 15:34:33

In message of 18 Mar, Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Keats-Rohan actually said that King Henry I of England
acceded the throne in 1087 ? He didn`t. William II Rufus was king from 1087-1100, in
the latter year King Henry I succeeded him.

This sounds a remarkably astonishing statement by Keats-Rohan. Can you
give the reference?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Mother of Hugh Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mar 2007 16:06:49

You are right. Mea maxima culpa! Keats-Rohan did not say Henry I
acceded in 1087; I did, and I am wrong, having simply forgotten about
Rufus. My apologies to Keats-Rohan.
This narrows the possible dates of the charter mentioning Henry to the
period 1100 to 1107, which narrows the possible birthdates of Cecily
and Hugh if they were too young to attest the charter; and destroys
my point that Roger had plenty of time during the reign of Henry to
acquire a second marriage and second family.
But it still leaves open the possibility of Roger's starting his
second family in the reign of Rufus or even of William I.
What Keats-Rohan said is:
"Roger and his wife Adelisa gave charter for Rochester priory which
referred to their sons and daughters and was attested by their
children William, Humphrey, Gunnor and Matilda.[12] This charter
tellingly refers to King Henry, making it highly unlikely that Roger
acquired a second wife and second family before his death in 1107."
Which tells us only that at some time in 1100-1107 Roger's wife was
Adeliza (the putative only wife) and they had four children old enough
to witness the document.

On Mar 18, 8:13 am, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Skip,
Keats-Rohan actually said that King Henry I of England
acceded the throne in 1087 ? He didn`t. William II Rufus was king from 1087-1100, in
the latter year King Henry I succeeded him.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL athttp://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re:Mother of Hugh Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mar 2007 19:01:03

I must confess to ignorance about the possible distinctions between Adeliza,
Adelicia and Adelida. But I have noted the various names given as
alternative spellings in a number of 12th century and earlier documents relating to the
Louvain family.
Meanwhile, if I may gallop to the support of Dr Keats-Rohan, I find in her
work, as published on the prosopon website, no suggestion that Henry I
succeeded to the throne before 1100.
For the rest, as Wittgenstein said, "wovon mann nicht reden kann, davon
muss mann schweigen"
MM

Gjest

Re: The Princely House of O'Malley

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mar 2007 20:53:39

when Saint Patrick began his conversion
of the Irish.

The first Bishop of Ireland was Palladius, appointed in 430 by Pope
Celestine.

Patrick probably never existed. Early historians did not know of him.
He is not mentioned by Bede, who died in 734, and was keen on this
type of tale, so his story was probably invented after Bede's time.
Bede did know that Celestine had sent Palladius to Ireland, and he
recorded many other stories about early bishops, abbots, and
missionaries, but he had clearly never heard of Patrick.

Prosper of Aquitaine wrote his Epitoma Chronicon in 433 and for the
year corresponding to 430 he recorded:

"Palladius was sent by Pope Celestine to the Scots who believed in
Christ, and was ordained as their first bishop".

That is an unimpeachable contemporary authority for Palladius as first
bishop in Ireland.

This story was known to Bede and was repeated by him:

"Anno 430 Paladius ad Scottos in Christum credentes a Celestino papa
primus mittitur episcopus."

"In the year 430 Palladius was sent by Pope Celestine to the Scots
that believed in Christ to be their first bishop".

Bede's Historia Ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum was finished in 731,
and, besides Palladius, he mentioned other Irish churchmen such as
Columba, but he made no mention of Patrick, even though he was
fascinated by the deviant customs of the Irish church, especially
concerning the date of Easter and the mode of tonsure. Bede may even
have met Columba's hagiographer Adamnan when he visited Northumbria
and was converted to the Catholic customs (Bede would have been 14).

This annal was then copied from Bede into the earliest version of the
Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (version A, compiled before 891):

"430. In this year bishop Palladius was sent by Pope Celestine to the
Scots to strengthen their faith".

But during the twelfth century the manuscript was altered to read: "...
Palladius (vel Patricius)...".

In another version of the chronicle (version E, written in 1121)
Palladius disappears and is replaced by Patrick:

"430. In this year Patrick was sent by pope Celestine to preach
baptism to the Scots".

Notice how with each scribe the story changes a little, so starting
from Palladius being sent to the Irish who were already Christian, it
eventually becomes a tale about Patrick being sent to convert the
Irish.

In the Annals of the Four Masters the two versions are combined:

430 "In this year Pope Celestinus the First sent Palladius to Ireland,
to propagate the faith among the Irish, and he landed in the country
of Leinster with a company of twelve men. Nathi, son of Garchu,
refused to admit him; but, however, he baptized a few persons in
Ireland, and three wooden churches were erected by him, namely, Cell
Fhine, Teach Na Romhan, and Domhnach Arta. At Cell Fhine he left his
books, and a shrine with the relics of Paul and Peter, and many
martyrs besides. He left these four in these churches: Augustinus,
Benedictus, Silvester, and Solinus. Palladius, on his returning back
to Rome (as he did not receive respect in Ireland), contracted a
disease in the country of the Cruithnigh, and died thereof."

431 "Saint Patrick was ordained bishop by the holy Pope, Celestine the
First, who ordered him to go to Ireland, to preach and teach faith and
piety to the Gaeidhil, and also to baptize them."

This alleged second mission was unknown to Prosper or Bede.

It seems to me more than probable that there never was a "Patricius"
and that he was accidentally invented by some monk who was struggling
to read an ancient and dirty or faded manuscript that originally said
"Palladius". In some sources Palladius is written Paladius, and it
would only take a speck of dirt to convert the l into a t. The d could
easily become c if the upright had faded away. Then the letter a could
have been read as ri (the dot is a recent invention to prevent this
sort of error). So the unfamiliar name of the bishop was replaced by a
more familiar Latin word with the same number of letters, also
beginning Pa- and ending -ius. As Patricius is not a name but a title,
it would automatically suggest a story about how the man came to be
known by this unusual appellation.

Gjest

Re: The Princely House of O'Malley

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mar 2007 21:10:15

On 18 Mrz., 19:53, paulvhe...@gmail.com wrote:
when Saint Patrick began his conversion
of the Irish.

The first Bishop of Ireland was Palladius, appointed in 430 by Pope
Celestine.

Patrick probably never existed. Early historians did not know of him.
He is not mentioned by Bede, who died in 734, and was keen on this
type of tale, so his story was probably invented after Bede's time.

ODNB cites the earliest certain sources of information about Patrick
as the biographies/hagiographies of Tirechan and Muirchu, which it
states date from the "second half of the seventh [sic] century" - i.e.
upwards of fifty years before Bede was writing.

Peter Stewart

Re: Re:Mother of Hugh Bigod, 1st Earl of Norfolk

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 18 mar 2007 22:10:05

<Millerfairfield@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.311.1174240773.3661.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I must confess to ignorance about the possible distinctions between
Adeliza,
Adelicia and Adelida. But I have noted the various names given as
alternative spellings in a number of 12th century and earlier documents
relating to the
Louvain family.

You are quite right - these were forms of the same name, sometimes
interchanged even in the same document, as of course Keats-Rohan knows very
well.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: The Princely House of O'Malley

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 mar 2007 22:27:02

Dear Paul,
Given as You say that Patricius was not a name but a title
and given that in 430 Palladius was given charge of converting the Irish and
the Irish say Patricius began in 431, is it not likely that Palladius was the
same person as Patricius ?
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA



************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

re: Faris' Plantagenet Ancestry

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 mar 2007 02:16:02

Having some spare time today, I have modified the PA link off my Sources
page here
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Sources_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... hp/Sources)
which had previously pointed directly at the work-in-full imaged in the
ancestry.com collection for those with such a subscription.

The link now points to an internal page on the work here
_http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Plantagenet_Ancestry_
(http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... t_Ancestry)
where I have now transcribed the table of contents.

I have only modified it to exclude those women represented by multiple
items. Faris had listed each woman under both her maiden name, and multiple
married names. I'm only listing her under one (hopefully) married name with the
indication of what the maiden name was for example Anne (Baynton) Batt.

Hopefully I've gotten these all right, I'm working without any notes as I'm
just lounging around my house today, not at my office. If anyone spots
anything wrong, let me know.

At some point in the distant future, perhaps I'll add a page for each of
these people as well.

Will Johnson



************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Andrew and Inge

RE: Who was Edward Lancaster of Skipton living 1460 ?

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 19 mar 2007 08:22:26

Very interesting!

Do you think this was a plantagenet? I'd be very interested to hear people's
ideas, because in Gisburn, quite close to Skipton, there was a land-owning
Lancaster family from at least the 1500s (see
http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/early%20gisburn.htm) and DNA seems to give
a strong argument that these were a branch of the Westmorland Lancasters
(see http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/Lancaster.htm) who in turn descend
from William de Lancaster I.

Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster

-----Original Message-----
From: wjhonson [mailto:wjhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, 17 March 2007 4:59 AM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Who was Edward Lancaster of Skipton living 1460 ?


In the "Lives of the Speakers of the House of Commons"

http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/view ... ves+of+the
+Speakers+of+the+House+of+Commons.The+Lives+of+the+Speakers+of+the+House+of+
Commons.The+Lives+of+the+Speakers+of+the+House+of+Commons.104&sid=&gskw=&cr=
1

In the Parliament of 1460 the author states that Henry Beaumont, son
and heir of Sir Henry Beaumont complained that his mother Joan was
abducted, after the death of her husband Henry Beaumont, by Edward
Lancaster of Skipton in Craven, Esq.

I would identify Joan with Joan Heronville, stated as wife of Sir
Henry /Beaumont/ , Knt of Thorpe-in-Balne, co York born 1411 "second
son" died 1446/7

cf <a href = "http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?
dbid=49030&iid=FLHG_AncestralRoots-0050">Ancestral Roots, 8th Edition,
Line 17, pg 26</a>

So presumably their son Henry was an adult by 1460

I had had this same Joan married also to Charles Noel, as a later
husband, but obviously he must be a *third* or later husband as the
complaint is specific in that Edward *married* Joan.

So who is this Edward? Leo does not appear to have him.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»