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taf

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av taf » 16 feb 2007 03:05:26

On Feb 14, 5:37 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

I'm not sure this is an accurate statement. Does your book address the
generation *prior* to John Russell who married Anne NN and thus became the parents
of Elizabeth Russell who m Sir Robert Wingfield ?

That is, who were John and Ann's parents?


There is a Visitation (Worcs. ?) but I think the wives are largely
bogus.

taf

Carole T

2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av Carole T » 16 feb 2007 06:29:05

To the List members,

I have looked at the search engine for gen-medieval list, but am
using the wrong key-words as I keep getting answers to the Ingelric and
Peverell connection.

My 2 questions are

1. the parents of Ingelric.
I have noticed several entries on private genealogy sites naming
INGELRIC as a son of ETHELRED of England and EMMA of Normandy.
Unfortunately the source for these entries appears to be other genealogy
sites which continue quoting genealogy & pedigree websites, going around in
a circle (A quotes B, who quotes C, who quotes A etc), but do not give a
primary source.

http://www.blae.net/web/douglas_archives/sources.htm
http://www.blae.net/web/douglas_archives/f1527.htm
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... amily&id=I
07190
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... &id=I00691
http://childsfamily.com/reunion/PS26/PS26_314.HTM
and several others.
I have also found some sites that do not list Ingelric as a child of
Ethelred & Emma;
but am curious as to where this claim began.

In over forty years I do not recall reading of Ingelric as a child of
Ethelred and Emma - I am obviously reading the wrong books.

Can someone give me the details of the primary source of Ingelric to
Ethelred of England.

2. Ingelric's spouse.
Usually is not named, however, I did see a website that names her as
"Adela Capet" daughter of Robert II of France and Constance of Toulouse.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... people/p00
000a8.htm#I13230

Is this Adela the daughter of Robert II and Constance of Arles,
Provence & Toulouse - I have seen Constance described as all three.

I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin V
of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.

Again, if I am using the wrong references, could someone point me in
the right direction, please.

Thank You

Carole (in Oz)

Gjest

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2007 06:52:02

In a message dated 2/15/07 9:36:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
laurel@optusnet.com.au writes:

<< 2. Ingelric's spouse.
Usually is not named, however, I did see a website that names her as
"Adela Capet" daughter of Robert II of France and Constance of Toulouse.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... people/p00
000a8.htm#I13230 >>

Gasp! I've been quoted!

My source, fwiw which isn't much is OneWorldTree
I think you have to trace out the entire line to see what claim is being made.
I.e. that the Peverels were Norman firstly and closely tied to all the
players, England, Normandy, France, and Scandinavia.

As such I'm sure it's false. It's just too high faluting a claim for such a
minor family.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: George Dunbar, earl of March

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2007 07:26:02

I want to put emphacize on John's note that the exact relationship between
the two is not known.

George called "10th" Earl of Dunbar and Earl of March (in 1373 if not
earlier) who died in 1415 (per your recent message) and his predecessor

Patrick, 10th Earl of Dunbar and 2nd of March (CP states "aged 24 in 1308/9
having livery of his father's lands

may have been cousins. I think we had a long discussion on this recently
here.

However you also added a note that George if he ruled for 48 years started
long before his predecessor had died. I'm not sure that's accurate.

I have two statements on the death of Patrick
Aft 25 Jul 1368
and
11 Nov 1368

He *resigned* the Earldom of March to his relative (called cousin) George.
So Patrick does not have to die for George to start ruling. George was
confimed in that by charters dated 25 July 1368 which fits exactly your 48 years.

Will Johnson

Matthew Connolly

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Matthew Connolly » 16 feb 2007 09:01:46

On Feb 15, 10:09 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/15/07 5:59:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, klei...@cox.net
writes:

Katherine, dau and eventual coheir of Richard Widville, Earl Rivers. Mar.
1st, to Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham. Mar., 2ndly, to Jasper, Duke of
Bedford.

How is this possible.
Richard Widville, 1st Earl Rivers married Jacquetta of Luxembourg, Duchess of
/Bedford/
and they had several children
Among whom was, *his* heir
Anthony Widville, 2nd Earl /Rivers/ who d 25 Jun 1483 at Pontefract
but not before marrying Gwenllian /Stradling/
and thereby *at least* one daughter
Margaret /Wydeville/ b abt 1455 (per genealogics
who m Robert /Poyntz/ of Acton
and thereby *at least* one son
Anthony /Poyntz/ of Iron Acton d 1533

and many many descendents.

So *how* could she be an eventual co-heir of her father? Surely all the
inheritence went to Anthony and his long line which extends at least into the 18th
century if not to today.

Will Johnson

Anthony Wydeville did have his daughter by Gwenllian Stradling, but
they weren't actually married, hence his sisters being the heraldic
coheirs.

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 16 feb 2007 09:10:39

On Feb 15, 10:05 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/15/07 12:06:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,

jbrec...@gmail.com writes:

14 Malise, 7th Earl of Strathern
15 Matida, of Orkney & Caithness

I'd be suspicious of this connection with a full citation to the proof.
Malise the 7th Earl had a full sister Maud (Matilda) who m Robert de Toeni
(or Tosny)
Robert was b 4 Apr 1276 and they were married 26 Apr 1293 (date of
settlement) so that gives you a fair idea of how old Maud might have been.

It would be a natural enough argument that Maud (Matilda) was named for her
grand-mother, although Maud is a common enough name. And that is where I have
Matilda of Orkney, as the wife of Malise the 5th Earl of Strathearn who d bef
23 Nov 1271 in France (citing GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com 2005-11-09
(November) and genealogics)

This older Matilda was I presume the one who was supposed to be a daughter of
Magnus

Hello All,

I am sorry I didn't mean to post the number system twice. I thought
the first hadn't posted hence the second "attempt"! I'm not very good
at this but I hopefully will improve!

Please feel free to comment on it. Any information to confirm or
exclude the above is welcome.

Will,

Thank you for that. I will visit the library when I get time to check
on the author's sources. Any other mistakes that you see?

Grothenwell

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2007 09:28:02

In a message dated 2/16/2007 12:05:49 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk writes:

Anthony Wydeville did have his daughter by Gwenllian Stradling, but
they weren't actually married, hence his sisters being the heraldic
coheirs.


Ahhhhhhhh *smacks forehead*
It's probably in my notes. I need to stick something like that right into
their names so I don't make that mistake. Like "so-and-so, illegitimate"

Thanks
Will

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 16 feb 2007 10:13:13

In message of 16 Feb, "taf" <farmerie@interfold.com> wrote:

On Feb 14, 5:37 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

I'm not sure this is an accurate statement. Does your book address
the generation *prior* to John Russell who married Anne NN and thus
became the parents of Elizabeth Russell who m Sir Robert Wingfield ?

That is, who were John and Ann's parents?


There is a Visitation (Worcs. ?) but I think the wives are largely
bogus.

It (1569 visitation, pp. 116-119) contains about 11 generations of
Russells with barely a scrap of evidence for any of them, but does
include the Wingfield marriage.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

taf

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av taf » 16 feb 2007 22:43:21

On Feb 15, 10:29 pm, "Carole T" <lau...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
To the List members,

I have looked at the search engine for gen-medieval list, but am
using the wrong key-words as I keep getting answers to the Ingelric and
Peverell connection.

Took a little looking, but now I see who you have in mind.


My 2 questions are

1. the parents of Ingelric.
I have noticed several entries on private genealogy sites naming
INGELRIC as a son of ETHELRED of England and EMMA of Normandy.

Complete fantasy. AEthelred and Emma had just three known children -
AElfred, Eadweard, and Godgifu. Further every single one of
AEthelred's children were named for prior kings of Wessex/England.
AEthelred had no such son. In fact, I would be surprised if there
ever was any Ingelric the Saxon. This man is completely invented, as
is his supposed daughter Maud/Ingelrica.


Unfortunately the source for these entries appears to be other genealogy
sites which continue quoting genealogy & pedigree websites, going around in
a circle (A quotes B, who quotes C, who quotes A etc), but do not give a
primary source.

I have also found some sites that do not list Ingelric as a child of
Ethelred & Emma;
but am curious as to where this claim began.

It appears to derive from a church foundation legend.


In over forty years I do not recall reading of Ingelric as a child of
Ethelred and Emma - I am obviously reading the wrong books.

No, just the wrong web sites.


2. Ingelric's spouse.
Usually is not named, however, I did see a website that names her as
"Adela Capet" daughter of Robert II of France and Constance of Toulouse.http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... WEB/peop...
000a8.htm#I13230

Is this Adela the daughter of Robert II and Constance of Arles,
Provence & Toulouse - I have seen Constance described as all three.

Yes. She was long stated incorrectly to have been daughter of William
of Toulouse, but it is the same woman.


I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin V
of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.

Absolutely not.


Again, if I am using the wrong references, could someone point me in
the right direction, please.

Taylor, Pamela.. "Ingelric, Count Eustace and the Foundation of St
Martin-le-Grand" in _Anglo-Norman Studies_, 24: 215-237. (which I have
not read yet, but is in a scholarly journal and clearly deals with the
subject in question)

taf

Gjest

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2007 23:11:02

In a message dated 2/16/07 1:45:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< > I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin
V
of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.

Absolutely not. >>

A few months ago Peter Stewart (12/19/06) pointed out that Adela "Capet" did
not marry Richard III of Normandy. Although his wife was named Adela, her
parentage is not known.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2007 23:19:02

In a message dated 2/16/07 1:45:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

<< > I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin
V
of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.

Absolutely not. >>


This plus Peter's remark would represent a correction to "Heraldry of the
Royal Families" as they do show, Table 64, Aelis d 1079, dau of Robert II K of
France 996 d 1031 by his third wife Constance d 1032 d of William Count of
Provence.

Aelis they show in the same talbe, m1 Robert III Duke of Normandy 1027, d
1027, m2 Baldwin Count of Flanders 1028 d 1067.

I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be corrected to
show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown parentage, and that Baldwin
was Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence"'s only husband.

Will

Gjest

Re: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2007 23:47:02

In a message dated 2/16/07 11:55:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
hw.bradley@verizon.net writes:

<< The oldest son of Thomas & Katherine (Lygon) Foliot, John Foliot, knt.,
married Elizabeth Aylmer (Elmer). >>

An odd enough name. But there was also an Elizabeth Aylmer who m Anthony
Crane, cofferer to Queen Elizabeth. He died between 16 Aug and 9 Sep of 1583

Any relation known between these two Elizabeth Aylmer's? Maybe the same
person?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av Gjest » 16 feb 2007 23:52:02

In a message dated 2/16/07 11:55:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
hw.bradley@verizon.net writes:

<< Thomas & Katherine's eighth son, was Rev. Edward Foliot, who eventually
emigrated to Virginia where he died in 1690. He is stated to be 22 years old
in 1632, indicating he was born c. 1610. >>

This person, aged 22 in 1632 cannot be a son of Thomas Foliot and Katherine
Lygon. Katherine would here be setting the world record for "oldest mother" if
so.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: George Dunbar, earl of March

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 feb 2007 00:11:02

In a message dated 2/16/07 6:31:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< One would be inclined to see George Dunbar, if the Earl's heir,
in 'first position' in the witness order of the foregoing charter. It
is interesting that Patrick de Hepburn of Hailes is found there
instead. >>

Tim responded last year that SP says that Patrick de Hepburn (above) married
an Agnes but "she wasn't a Dunbar". He cited " Vol 3, pp. 250 to 270 or so
and Vol 6, pp. 291-4."

But one possible interpretation of Patrick's charter which John Ravilous
cited 1367 would be that Patrick's two known sons were already dead, and Patrick
de Hepburn was his son-in-law. The next person listed after Patrick, is that
"cousin" [so styled] George to which his Earldom was resigned. So Patrick
whatever his relation, *should* conceivably stand closer to Earl Patrick, then
George did.

Will Johnson

Peter Stewart

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 17 feb 2007 00:25:12

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3488.1171664284.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 2/16/07 1:45:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and
Baldwin
V
of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.

Absolutely not.


This plus Peter's remark would represent a correction to "Heraldry of the
Royal Families" as they do show, Table 64, Aelis d 1079, dau of Robert II
K of
France 996 d 1031 by his third wife Constance d 1032 d of William Count of
Provence.

Aelis they show in the same talbe, m1 Robert III Duke of Normandy 1027, d
1027, m2 Baldwin Count of Flanders 1028 d 1067.

I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be corrected
to
show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown parentage, and that
Baldwin
was Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence"'s only husband.

You have gone too far with this.

Adela was married only once, to Balduin V, count of Flanders (the purported
earlier marriage to Richard III, duke of Normandy, was an error, as you
state).

Her parents were Robert II, king of Franks, and Constance of Arles whose
father was William II 'the Liberator', count of Arles & marquis of Provence.
The longstanding error that Todd referred to was making her the daughter of
a different William, a count of Toulouse.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Domesday ref 73 manors in Devon

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 feb 2007 01:10:03

In a message dated 15/02/2007 8:51:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gen-medieval-request@rootsweb.com writes:

Dear Penny,

Domesday Book (sections 16.3, 16.4) shows Okehampton and Chichacott
both held by Baldwin the Sheriff, with Chichacott held from him by one
Roger (Alfordon and Webber Hill are not mentioned and are presumably
subsumed in the entry for either Okehampton or Chichacott). None of
Drogo's holdings, from either the Bishop of Coutances or the Count of
Mortain, lay in or near Okehampton.

Incidentally, in the Devon Domesday he is called just Drogo, but the
two editions of Domesday I've just looked in (the Phillimores and
Alecto editions) both tentatively identify him as the Drogo
fitzMauger, probably son of Mauger de Carteret, who held land from the
Bishop of Coutances in Somerset.

Matt Tompkins


Matt
Thank you for the reply. That answers the question I had and a few I've
been thinking about. I tried googling Drogo fitzMauger or Mauger de Carteret
but found little. I have heard of this man as rather than Burke's recorded
Drogo fitzPons. I found nothing on fitzMauger having children either.

I would also like to apologize for mispelling Domesday. I guess it's the
old Saxon heritage that makes me spell it DOOMSday on a regular basis. Must
stop doing that. :)


Peggy Large UE


"I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead"
thanks to Jimmy Buffett!

Hal Bradley

RE: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 17 feb 2007 01:56:42

You are correct. Edward is the eighth son of John & Elizabeth (Aylmer)
Foliot. Mea culpa.

Hal Bradley

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of
WJhonson@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 2:50 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Foliot Notes and Query


In a message dated 2/16/07 11:55:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
hw.bradley@verizon.net writes:

Thomas & Katherine's eighth son, was Rev. Edward Foliot,
who eventually
emigrated to Virginia where he died in 1690. He is stated to
be 22 years old
in 1632, indicating he was born c. 1610.

This person, aged 22 in 1632 cannot be a son of Thomas Foliot
and Katherine
Lygon. Katherine would here be setting the world record for
"oldest mother" if
so.

Will Johnson

-------------------------------
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Hal Bradley

RE: Foliot Notes and Query

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 17 feb 2007 01:59:43

They cannot be the same person as Anthony Crane had a second wife after
Elizabeth Aylmer.

Hal Bradley

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of
WJhonson@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 2:45 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Foliot Notes and Query


In a message dated 2/16/07 11:55:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
hw.bradley@verizon.net writes:

The oldest son of Thomas & Katherine (Lygon) Foliot, John
Foliot, knt.,
married Elizabeth Aylmer (Elmer).

An odd enough name. But there was also an Elizabeth Aylmer
who m Anthony
Crane, cofferer to Queen Elizabeth. He died between 16 Aug
and 9 Sep of 1583

Any relation known between these two Elizabeth Aylmer's?
Maybe the same
person?
Thanks
Will Johnson

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 feb 2007 03:34:02

In a message dated 2/16/07 1:17:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

<< It (1569 visitation, pp. 116-119) contains about 11 generations of
Russells with barely a scrap of evidence for any of them, but does
include the Wingfield marriage. >>

Thanks for the citation Tim.
For those so inclined here is a google books link to that page

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC2 ... 12&lpg=PP1
2&dq=visitation+of+worcestershire#PPA116,M1

taf

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av taf » 17 feb 2007 07:45:54

On Feb 16, 2:17 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/16/07 1:45:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,

farme...@interfold.com writes:

I have this Adela as married to Richard III of Normandy and Baldwin
V
of Flanders; is there another relationship of Adela to Ingelric ?.

Absolutely not.

This plus Peter's remark would represent a correction to "Heraldry of the
Royal Families" as they do show, Table 64, Aelis d 1079, dau of Robert II K of
France 996 d 1031 by his third wife Constance d 1032 d of William Count of
Provence.

And so she was.

Aelis they show in the same talbe, m1 Robert III Duke of Normandy 1027, d
1027, m2 Baldwin Count of Flanders 1028 d 1067.

I agree with Peter - I guess I should have commented on the Richard
marriage and said that two was already one to many, but I didn't have
the time to go into it so I just rejected the Ingelred connection.

This is a good lesson. In the past posters have argued that since a
particular poster has not explicitly rejected a connection in a
response, they must agree with it. This is not necessarily the case.


I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be corrected to
show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown parentage, and that Baldwin
was Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence"'s only husband.

Whoa. I guess it wasn't clear which "she" I was talking about. I
meant Constance de Toulouse (sic) is the same person as Constance of
Provence. I was not correcting the parentage of Baldwin's wife.

taf

Gjest

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av Gjest » 17 feb 2007 08:46:02

In a message dated 2/16/2007 11:21:57 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be corrected
to
show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown parentage, and that Baldwin
was Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence"'s only husband.

Whoa. I guess it wasn't clear which "she" I was talking about. I
meant Constance de Toulouse (sic) is the same person as Constance of
Provence. I was not correcting the parentage of Baldwin's wife.



I'm not sure why people are misreading what I wrote.
1) Adela the wife of Robert has unknown parentage
and seperately
2) Baldwin was Adela "of Arles" only husband

That doesn't touch at all on the parentage of Baldwin's wife.
Which I presume would still stay the way Heraldry is showing it now.

I was going to ask a followup question, since they've confused the two
Adelas on whether they've also confused the death date(s) of the two Adelas. They
show a death date, but now I'm not sure to which one it refers, most likely
the one who was also the wife of Baldwin. I have a faint suspicion Peter is
going to pipe in with one of his "we only know Adela the wife of Robert from
a single document" type responses ;)

Will Johnson

taf

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av taf » 17 feb 2007 09:42:13

On Feb 16, 11:44 pm, WJhon...@AOL.COM wrote:
In a message dated 2/16/2007 11:21:57 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,



farme...@interfold.com writes:
I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be corrected
to
show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown parentage, and that Baldwin
was Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence"'s only husband.

Whoa. I guess it wasn't clear which "she" I was talking about. I
meant Constance de Toulouse (sic) is the same person as Constance of
Provence. I was not correcting the parentage of Baldwin's wife.

I'm not sure why people are misreading what I wrote.

Let me count the ways :)

1) Adela the wife of Robert has unknown parentage
and seperately

Richard (III, Duke of Normandy), right? If not, I am lost.

2) Baldwin was Adela "of Arles" only husband

This is what is causing the misunderstanding. Why are you calling
Adela, undisputed daughter of Robert II, King of France by the name
Adela "of Arles" or "of Provence". While it is somewhat arbitrary
exactly what toponym you give her, it is conventional to refer to
medievals by their father's localle, unless there is some special
reason to do otherwise.

taf

Louise Staley

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 17 feb 2007 11:30:25

Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:
<snip of interesting early Baskerville genealogy I have no basis to
comment on>

I apologise for becoming M.I.A. however I have been in Melbourne for a
few days.

There are three intriguing Baskerviiles recorded in the Oxford DNB:
1. Thomas, son of Henry B and Ann Ratford, married to Mary, d. of Thomas
Throckmorton

the Henry who married Ann (the Visitation of Berkshire says Rufford) was
the son of Sir John Baskerville and Alice Bridges, Sir John was the
second son of Sir James of Eardisley Castle and Sybil Devereux.

(general of the fleet, buried Drake at sea), d. 1597
2. His son Hannibal, antiquary, 5 Apr 1597- March 1668
3. Hannibal's son Thomas, topographer, 1630-1700

I believe the famous Baskerville typographer, who invented the
Baskerville font lived 1706-1775 and was the son of a John Baskerville.
There is a booklet which attepts to trace his ancestry, published in
1936 called "John Baskerville: The Printer 1706-1775 his ancestry, a
retrospect by Thomas Cave Member Worcestershire Historical Society."
Unfortunately I downloaded a few relevant pages but now cannot find from
where.

Thomas the typographer belongs in the Shropshire family and I think
descends from a brother of Humphrey the alderman.
I have not been able to attach these exciting Baskervilles to any pedigree
that I have seen.

So far as concerns Thomas the alderman of London, I have since replying to
Louise Staley's recent post had a look at the Shropshire Visitation for 1623
(Treswell, page 387), which can be seen on line if one gets into google books
via proxify.

A remarkable feature of the pedigree presented on this and the next page,
which gives an entirely conventional account of the Baskerville descent from
Sir James and his wife Elizabeth Touchet down to James, husband of Elizabeth
"Braynton" of Stretton, Salop, is that it shows Humphrey the alderman as fifth
son of this James and Elizabeth, and married to Joanna Packington, with the
six daughters Elizabeth Hungate, Angelica Maynard, Martha May, Anna Ducket,
Mary Gonston and Sarah Owen, wife of Thomas Owen, the well-known judge of the
King's Bench who is buried in Westminster Abbey, and whose brief biography
(describing him as the husband of Sarah, daughter of Humphrey Baskerville) is
in the Oxford DNB.
The same article gives a biography of his son Sir Roger Owen (1572-1617).
Both Thomas Owen and his son Roger were graduates of Christ Church, Oxford,
and Treasurers of Lincoln's Inn- which, as my friends will realise, makes me
predisposed to trust them and their close kin as reliable authorities on
genealogical matters.
The Shropshire pedigree is vouched for by Thomas Owen's youngest (5th) son
Sir William Owen, sheriff of Shropshire at the time of the visitation, but
who was living before the end of the 16th century, not long after the death of
his (in my present belief) grandfather Humphrey the Alderman, whose Will is
preserved at PROB 11/47, proved in 1564.

I am therefore finding myself driven towards accepting the very proposition
which I had rejected in my earlier posts, namely that Humphrey the alderman
was indeed a son of James Baskerville and Elizabeth Breynton.

As a result of this further effort I am convinced that the pedigrees on
which I relied in my earlier response to Louise Staley are unreliable. We must I
think look elsewhere for a credible ancestry for the Baskervilles of Aberedw,
and must welcome the alderman as a member of the main Baskerville of
Eardisley line.

Like you I found the proximity of the time of certification of the
Shropshire Visitation persuasive until I had the will of Humphrey the
alderman partially transcribed.

While it fits with the children of Humphrey in the Shropshire Visitation
the names of the alderman's siblings do not completely overlap with
those of the Eardisly line. In particular the alderman mentions his
brother William but Sir James is not known to have a son William. The
alderman mentions his brother Thomas of Nethwerwood and his children
namely John B, Humfry B, Alice B, Johne B and Anne B. But the Thomas son
of Sir James is reported as dying s.p.m. Sir James is said to have had
sons James, John, Thomas, Walter and Humphrey but Humphrey the alderman
mentions brothers John, Thomas and John.

So while it is appealing to add the alderman to the main line (so we
could then argue/discuss whether Sybil Devereux was the daughter or
sister-in-law of Anne Ferrers) I do no think there is sufficient
evidence to do so.

regards
Louise

1 September 1563 5 Elizabeth
Humfrey Baskerfild [Baskerfelde in margin], citizen and alderman of London.
Body to be buried in church commonly called the mercers churche in West
Chepe of London [provision for grave stone].
Goods to be divided into 3 portions.
One portion to wife Jane.
Another to all my children, as well married and unmarried, to be paid as
they accomplish ages of 21 or at marriage.
Third part to perform legacies and bequests.
Long list of friends to receive gold rings,
including my brother Thomas Baskerfelde;
also Thomas Baskerfilde of Nethewood in the county of Worceter.
Other bequests to servants.
To Hughe Baskerfilde mine apprentice.
To my brother Thomas Baskerfild of Upton in the county of Worceter.
To the children of my said brother Thomas Baskerfilde,
namely John B, Humfry B, Alice B, Johne B and Anne B, to be paid as they
come to 21 are are married.
Sister Alice Sandes, widow.
And to every of her children,
that is to say Christopher Jewk[es], Edward Jewk[es], William Jewk[es],
Joyce Jewkes, John Jewk[es]
and to her son Robert Sandes, at 21 or marriage.
Sister Agnes Hollyman now wife of Humfry Hollyman of Blackesole in the
county of Worceter, and her children [named].
Children of late brother William Baskerfilde deceased [named].
Children of brother [John inserted] Baskerfilde of Alvetheley in the
county of Salop [named]
Further bequests to Packingtons.
For repair of Wolverly Bridge, Co[w?]clyff Bridge and Councell Bridge in
the county of Worceter.
Further bequests include:
The poor of the parish of Kidderminster in Worceter, to be distributed
by discretion of brother Thomas
and bayliff of parish.
The poor of parish of Woluerlye "wher I was borne".
Bequests to company of mercers, apprentices and servants, to the poor of
specified London parishes.
To every of children married as unmarried and to "the childe in my
wiefes boddy" at lawful age of
marriage.
Bequests to London hospitals.
Richard Hollyman mercer shall have the bringing up and keeping of Anne
and Martha my daughters.
Friend Thomas Heaton mercer shall have keeping etc of Humfry Baskerfelde
my son.
William Leon[ar]de mercer shall have keeping etc of Angell my daughter.
Cousin John Jackson fownder shall have finding and bringing up of
Richard my son.
Son in law Harry Hungate mercer shall have finding and bringing up of
Sara my daughter.
Wife to have finding and virtuous bringing up of "the childe she nowe
goeth withall".
I gave in marriage with my daughter to my son in law Harry Hungate 200
pounds.



MM

Peter Stewart

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 17 feb 2007 11:53:30

<WJhonson@AOL.COM> wrote in message
news:mailman.3502.1171698292.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 2/16/2007 11:21:57 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:

[On Feb 16, 2:17 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:]

I need to add a note to my database stating that this should be
corrected to show that Adela, the wife of Robert has unknown
parentage, and that Baldwin was Adela "of Arles" or "of
Provence"'s only husband.

Whoa. I guess it wasn't clear which "she" I was talking about. I
meant Constance de Toulouse (sic) is the same person as Constance of
Provence. I was not correcting the parentage of Baldwin's wife.

I'm not sure why people are misreading what I wrote.
1) Adela the wife of Robert has unknown parentage
and seperately
2) Baldwin was Adela "of Arles" only husband

That doesn't touch at all on the parentage of Baldwin's wife.
Which I presume would still stay the way Heraldry is showing it now.

I was going to ask a followup question, since they've confused the two
Adelas on whether they've also confused the death date(s) of the two
Adelas. They
show a death date, but now I'm not sure to which one it refers, most
likely
the one who was also the wife of Baldwin. I have a faint suspicion Peter
is
going to pipe in with one of his "we only know Adela the wife of Robert
from
a single document" type responses ;)

Since, as Todd remarked, you presumably mean Adela the wife of Richard
rather than "the wife of Robert", then your suspicion is warranted: we only
know of Duke Richard III's wife from a single charter, dated January 1026,
by which he gave her Coutance. We don't know any more about her, including
the date of her death. It is possible that she was the Countess Adelays
recorded in the obituary of Jumièges under 16 January, but this was perhaps
Adela of Breteuil, countess of Clermont, who died at the end of the 12th
century, or another namesake of this rank.

Adela of France, countess of Flanders, is known from many sources. She died
at Messines on 8 January, almost certainly in 1079, and was buried there.

Peter Stewart

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 17 feb 2007 17:35:02

On Feb 16, 8:10�am, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 15, 10:05 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:





In a message dated 2/15/07 12:06:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,

jbrec...@gmail.com writes:

14 Malise, 7th Earl of Strathern
 15 Matida, of Orkney & Caithness

I'd be suspicious of this connection with a full citation to the proof.
Malise the 7th Earl had a full sister Maud (Matilda) who m Robert de Toeni
(or Tosny)
Robert was b 4 Apr 1276 and they were married 26 Apr 1293 (date of
settlement) so that gives you a fair idea of how old Maud might have been.

It would be a natural enough argument that Maud (Matilda)  was named for her
grand-mother, although Maud is a common enough name.  And that is where I have
Matilda of Orkney, as the wife of Malise the 5th Earl of Strathearn who d bef
23 Nov 1271 in France (citing GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com 2005-11-09
(November) and genealogics)

This older Matilda was I presume the one who was supposed to be a daughter of
Magnus

Hello All,

I am sorry I didn't mean to post the number system twice. I thought
the first hadn't posted hence the second "attempt"! I'm not very good
at this but I hopefully will improve!

Please feel free to comment on it. Any information to confirm or
exclude the above is welcome.

Will,

Thank you for that. I will visit the library when I get time to check
on the author's sources. Any other mistakes that you see?

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Dear All,


Can anyone confirm if Ronald (Reginald) le Chien, 4th of Inverugie &
Francis (Freskin)le Chien were brothers?
Does anyone have details of Isabel (Comyn) de Cuming's parentage?

Best regards,

Grothenwell

Carole T

Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av Carole T » 18 feb 2007 01:35:14

Thank you Will for the answer.

I have been a member of this list for a few weeks, indulging my interest in
Medieval history and I have noticed your answers to many questions.

However, when I quoted the website for "Adela Capet" I did not realise this
was your work.

Thank you for your assistance.

Regards,

Carole (in Oz)
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <laurel@optusnet.com.au>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)


In a message dated 2/15/07 9:36:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
laurel@optusnet.com.au writes:

2. Ingelric's spouse.
Usually is not named, however, I did see a website that names her as
"Adela Capet" daughter of Robert II of France and Constance of Toulouse.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... people/p00
000a8.htm#I13230

Gasp! I've been quoted!

Louise Staley

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 18 feb 2007 05:24:44

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/14/07 10:57:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:

The Shropshire pedigree is vouched for by Thomas Owen's youngest (5th)
son
Sir William Owen, sheriff of Shropshire at the time of the visitation, but
who was living before the end of the 16th century, not long after the death
of
his (in my present belief) grandfather Humphrey the Alderman, whose Will
is
preserved at PROB 11/47, proved in 1564.

Something seems amiss in this paragraph.
Sarah Baskerville baptised 5 Mar 1552 which would then accord with her son
Roger being born in 1572 as you stated. But then you say that William, the
fifth and youngest son "...who was living ...not long after the death of Humphrey"

Surely William was born no *earlier* than 1580 ? That would be quite a time
after the death of Humphrey.

Thanks
Will Johnson

The Visitation was taken in 1623, 60 years after Humphrey the alderman
died. William Owen was baptised in 1581, 18 years after Humphrey died.
The other important point is that Humphrey the alderman died when his
children were young and their mother remarried. The Baskerville
daughters were famously given spectacular dowries by their step father
Lionel Duckett. These families were noted at the time for their enormous
wealth, Lionel Duckett repeatedly lent money to the English treasury,
and the money was very new. It would not surprise me if the story told
in the family was that they came from the Eardisly Castle line.

Timeline
1552 Sarah Baskerville baptised in London
1563 Humphrey the alderman dies
<1570 Sarah Baskerville marries Thomas Owen of Condover
1570-1587 10 children baptised in London to Sarah and Thomas
1581 William Owen baptised London
~1594 Sarah dies
1598 Thomas Owen dies
1662 William Owen Sheriff of Shropshire dies

Louise

Carole T

Thank you - 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of England)

Legg inn av Carole T » 18 feb 2007 07:06:08

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

I thought that Ingelric was not a child of Ethelred
and Emma, but wondered where the idea had come from.

Indulging my interest in history means that I am interested in the
information (good and bad) held by others, and am curious about
where and how they obtained that information.

It is surprising how information can differ between websites.

I like to keep notes of the correct and incorrect information with
appropriate notations to why it is incorrect. I have wondered on
occasion, when there is more than one opinion, with no clear
indication what gives one opinion precedence over the other ?

I have an aunt who loves history and genealogy, who believes that if
something is published then it must be correct because it would not be
published if it was not. I get reams of photocopied pages and not an
author's name or book title recorded - why bother, if it is printed it must
be right!. (including Barbara Cartland, who, I have been assured, did
meticulous research)

Another of her favourite explanations is the belief that ALL with the same
surname should be able to trace back to the same ancestor who first provided
the surname; she could not understand why I was not willing to accept
information on a protestant Governor of Bermuda originally from Wiltshire
when the family I was interested in were catholic from Ireland. - after all
they had the same surname so they HAD to be related.
Carole (in Oz)

Gjest

Re: GED2WEB was Re: 2 questions re INGELRIC the Saxon (of En

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 feb 2007 07:28:02

In a message dated 2/17/2007 10:11:46 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
laurel@optusnet.com.au writes:

However, when I quoted the website for "Adela Capet" I did not realise this
was your work.

Thank you for your assistance.


Yes it's a static site. That is I don't expect to update it.
I have been playing over the past few months with various free genealogy
programs for presenting my database on the internet.

I like Rootsweb because you can just load a GEDCOM to it and voila it's very
straightforward and simple. The drawback is the copyright is ...fuzzy.
People seem to have no qualms over cutting and pasting data from trees in
WorldConnect or the Ancestral World Tree without proper credit. Since the
*presentation* of the material is standard, i.e. not an individual artistic
expression, it leaves the copyright question gray. So I probably won't be updating my
royals database there any more. And may someday remove what I've posted so
far.

The particular database you found was created via a program called GED2WEB
which takes an exported GEDCOM file and makes HTML pages out of it. It's kind
of neat because of the *way* it presents the data and the various options
you can choose. For example, you can choose that each person has their own
individual webpage, which is very good for *citing* and one of the main reasons
why I don't like tudorplace.com.ar anymore. You can also choose that the
ancestors and descendents are shown, and to a certain level, which I like. It
gives you an "at one glance" view of a person's connections.

It's too bad they don't have an option like "show me all the brothers-in-law
on the same page also". That would be useful.

At any rate, in the future I will probably be presenting all of my new
research on my site at countyhistorian.com/cecilweb

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 feb 2007 11:24:02

Louise Staley wrote yesterday, referring to

<the famous Baskerville typographer, who invented the Baskerville
<font lived 1706-1775 and was the son of a John Baskerville

Have you seen the DNB article on John the typographer, Louise?
It states that he was "born at Sion Hill, Wolverley, near Kidderminster,
Worcestershire, the son of John Baskervile (d. 1738) and his wife, Sara or
Sarah; he was baptized at Wolverley on 28 January 1707. It is likely that the
family were landowners and farmers in a small way".
Although the typographer is OT, I think it worth mentioning that the only
baptismal entry at Wolverley, Worcs, for a John B is dated 25th January 1697
(son of John B and Sara), which casts some doubt on the DNB biography.
It is perhaps noteworthy that in the abstract of the Will of "Thomas the
Alderman" he refers to himself as having been born in the parish of Wolverley. A
family connection is therefore well possible.

As to Humphrey the alderman himself, I have just discovered a parish
register entry for the marriage of him and his wife Jane Packington at St Michael
Bassishaw, London, on 15th Jan 1541, where Humphrey is transcribed in the IGI
transcripts as "Homfray Baskerfeld" and his wife as "Jane Paginton". His Will
(PROB 11/54) was proved in November 1564, which makes it possible that the
following children, baptised at St Michael Bassishaw as the children of
Humphrey (variously spelt or transcribed), were his:-
Humphrey, bp 23 Sep 1547
Angel, bp 21 Sep 1549
Sarah, bp 5th Mar 1552
Mary, bp 2nd Jul 1555
Richard, 14th July 1557.
Children so named are all found in the alderman's Will.
Also there is a baptismal entry dated 16th May 1544 for Elizabeth
Baskerville, daughter of Humphrey, in the register of St Lawrence Jewry. Her marriage
to Henry Hungate is registered at St Michael Bassishaw on 14th Jul 1563.
There is another entry at St Lawrence Jewry for the baptism of Anne
Baskerville on 28th Feb 1559, and IGI shows one for Martha at St Peter Westcheap in
November 1561. Westcheap was known as the Mercers' church, as Humphrey's Will
states.
Thus it seems that all the alderman's children, mentioned in his Will and
the Shropshire Visitation, can be accounted for.

As for the alderman's siblings mentioned in his Will, I have to agree with
Louise that they do not completely overlap with [what is known] of the
Eardisley line. In particular Louise points out that Sir James Baskerville is not
known to have had a son William. But Sir James' brother Philip is shown in the
Herefordshire pedigrees as having had a son William.

Louise continues:-
<Sir James is said to have had sons James, John, Thomas, Walter and Humphrey
but <Humphrey the alderman mentions brothers John, Thomas and John.
Only one brother John is mentioned, as far as I can see. And Thomas of
Netherwood is not described as the Alderman's brother (though on the hypothesis
that the Alderman was a Baskerville of the Eardisley line he was a fairly close
relation).
The reference to "my brother Thomas Baskerfild of Upton" suggests to me that
the Alderman was using "brother" in a loose sense, and the same may be true
of his use of the word "sister"- I have certainly had no success in
identifying any of the sisters mentioned in the Alderman's Will.
I think it may be worth having a look at Nash's Worcestershire for traces of
the Worcestershire Baskervilles. Several are mentioned in the index,
including many at Vol I, page 158, but I don't currently have access to the book.

Finally, Louise, I had not known that there was doubt about the place of
Sybil Baskerville nee Devereux in the Devereux family. But now, looking at the
relevant dates, I do see that she might have been Anne Ferrers' daughter: the
Ferrers/Devereux marriage settlement in the Longleat papers is dated 1446,
which gives time for a daughter Sybil to have married Sir James Baskerville KB.
The latter's IPM (E 150/150/408) is dated 1499, and their son Sir Walter's
is dated 1509.
If Sybil was the sister of Anne Ferrers' husband, she must have been born
before 1439, Elizabeth Merbury (the wife of Sir Walter Devereux senior) being
known to have died in 1438.
We might get further illumination from a study of the IPM of Sir James'
Baskerville's father John (died 1455, IPM C 139/175/10), as it would likely show
the age of his heir.

MM

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 feb 2007 12:38:02

Since my last I have downloaded and studied the Wills of Sir Thomas
Baskerville of Brinsop and his brother Walter Baskerville. Each of them referes to
their deceased brother Sir James, and to their older brother John.
Thomas's Will makes it apparent that his only child was Eleanor, still under
age. His wife Dame Eleanor is mentioned, along with Abington and Dansey
properties. Walter's makes it clear that he had no children, but mentions his
wife Sibyl, previously married to a Birde. Several of his estates are named.
Neither of these Wills makes any mention of any Humphrey Baskerville, nor to
the children of any deceased Humphrey. But I doubt whether that proves
anything.
MM

Louise Staley

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 19 feb 2007 08:06:44

On Feb 15, 9:19 am, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/14/07 10:57:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,

Millerfairfi...@aol.com writes:

There are three intriguing Baskerviiles recorded in the Oxford DNB:
1. Thomas, son of Henry B and Ann Ratford, married to Mary, d. of Thomas
Throckmorton
(general of the fleet, buried Drake at sea), d. 1597
2. His son Hannibal, antiquary, 5 Apr 1597- March 1668
3. Hannibal's son Thomas, topographer, 1630-1700

I would be interested if someone had more on this Mary Throckmorton and how
she connects to the other Throckmortons.

Hannibal Baskerville was born at Saint Valery, Picardy *evidently* (?) while
his father General Thomas was on some sort of campaign. He himself states
(DNB) that he had the other generals as his godfathers. It's a little
interesting that Hannibal's wife would accompany him on a military campaign, but this
woman Mary Baskerville, was herself a daughter of Capt Nicholas Baskerville of
Eardisley by his wife Constance Huntley of Boxwell.

Hannibal and Mary were to have 18 children, 16 sons and two daughters as DNB
states.

Hannibal's father Thomas died in Picardy just about two months after the
birth of his son.
Did Mary Throckmorton remarry?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Dear Will,

Sorry for the delay. In answer to your questions about Mary
Throckmorton an excellent site to look at her extensive ancestry is
Tim Powys-Lybbe's http://powys.org/, go to the Berkeley's link and
search under the name Thomas Baskerville. Mary was the daughter of Sir
Thomas Throkmorton of Tortworth and Elizabeth Berkeley.

In the ODNB Mary is reported as having a disastrous second marriage
with Sir James Scudamore. Apparently CP Vol. 11 P. 572 also has
something to say about her and her Scudamore offspring.

regards
Louise

Leo van de Pas

Re: Lewkenor & le Strange

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19 feb 2007 08:41:28

I have no indications (as yet) on my website, but The Complete Baronetage
Volume II Page 73
makes it Sir Edward Lewkenor married to Mary, daughter of Sir Henry Nevill,
of Billingbere.

Hope this helps

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <pedricks@ozemail.com.au>
To: "Gen-Med List" <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 6:18 PM
Subject: Lewkenor & le Strange


I have been browsing the Court of Chivalry website I mentioned in my
previous e-mail, and found case # 372, le Strange V Creamer and Stileman.

At the bottom of the page under Notes it says the following:-

"Sir Hamon Le Strange of Hunstanton was the son of Sir Nicholas Le Strange
(d.1592), and Mary, daughter of Robert Bell of Beaupré Hall, Outwell, co.
Norfolk.He married Alice, daughter of Richard Stubbs / Smith of Sedgeford,
co. Norfolk, esq.He was appointed a deputy lieutenant in 1625 and was M.P.
for Norfolk in 1614 and 1621, and M.P. for Castle Rising in 1625. During the
civil wars, on 13 August 1643 Sir Hamond Le Strange led a party of local
gentry to sieze King's Lynn for the king, in which town he endured a siege
until surrendering on 16 September 1643. His estates were sequestered in
1649. His son Sir Nicholas Le Strange (1603-55) was created a baronet in
1629, and married Anne, daughter of Sir Edward Lewkenor, of Suffolk, knt."

I was particularly interested in the bottom line of this where it said that
Sir Nicholas le Strange married Anne, daughter of Sir Edward Lewkenor. Does
anyone know which Sir Edward Lewkenor this would be?

Merilyn Pedrick



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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Gjest

Re: Pure English Royalty

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 feb 2007 21:11:08

In a message dated 2/19/07 12:20:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
volucris@kpnplanet.nl writes:

<< Can you schetch the descent from Harold II Godwinson to Isabel of
Aragon. I can't remember having seen that before, >>

Harold II Godwinson, King of /England/ d 1066
Gytha of /Wessex/ d 1125 at Kiev, married Vladimir II Monomakh, Grand Duke of
/Kiev/ d 1125
Mstislav I, Grand Duke of /Kiev/ b 1076 d 1132 m Lyubawa of /Novgorod/
Euphrosine of /Kiev/ b *possibly* in 1130 d bef 1186 m Geisa II, King of
/Hungary/ 1141-
Bela III, King of /Hungary/ 1173-96 b 1148 d 1196 m Agnes of
/Chatillon-sur-Loing/
Andrew II, King of /Hungary/ 1205-35 b 1176 d 1235 m Yolande of /Courtenay/
James I, King of /Aragon/ 1213-76 m Yolande (Violante) of /Hungary/
Isabelle, Princess of /Aragon/


Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Lewkenor & le Strange

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 feb 2007 21:18:03

In a message dated 2/18/07 11:34:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< His estates were sequestered in
1649. His son Sir Nicholas Le Strange (1603-55) was created a baronet in
1629, and married Anne, daughter of Sir Edward Lewkenor, of Suffolk, knt." >>



I have this marriage as occurring 26 Aug 1630 citing http://www.genealogics.org
That they were the parents of Nicholas le /Strange/ , 3rd Bart bap 17 Oct
1632 again citing http://www.genealogics.org

I have Ann Lewknor as daughter of Edward /Lewknor/ d aft 1609
by his wife Mary /Neville/ d 28 Oct 1642 Dedham, Suffolk, England citing
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar

Mary Neville has several royal lines through both her parents Henry Neville
and Anne Killegrew

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Christopher Baynham / Bridget Porter

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 feb 2007 22:00:02

Thank you Louise for pointing out that Tim Powys-Lybbe had the Mary
Throckmorton/Thomas Baskerville connection.

While mousing around on his site I noticed the following

1) Christopher Baynham married Bridget Porter
2) This Christopher was the son of Sir George Baynham by his wife Cecilia Gage
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps34/ps34_156.htm
3) Bridget is given as the daughter of Roger Porter by his wife Margaret
Arthur
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps34/ps34_155.htm
4) Roger Porter and Margaret Arthur are given as married "ca 1482"
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps34/ps34_149.htm
----------------------------------------------
Contrasting that we do know when George Baynham and Cecilia Gage married

Item A
East Sussex Record Office: Archive of the Gage family of Firle [SAS/G21/1 -
SAS/G46/14]
Archive of Gage family of Firle
Catalogue Ref. SAS/G
Creator(s): Gage family of East Sussex, Viscounts Gage

FAMILY SETTLEMENTS
FILE - Counterpart settlement - ref. SAS/G21/5 - date: 15 Dec 1527
[from Scope and Content] John Gage, kt, vice-chamberlain of the king, and
Christopher Baynham, kt and his son and heir George Baynham, esq; GB to marry
JG's daughter Cecile

----------------
Therefore if Christopher was their son he could not be born before 1528. And
in fact we know he was an adult by 1550

Item B
Herefordshire Record Office: Records of Hill Court Estate
Records of Hill Court Estate
Catalogue Ref. F8
Creator(s): Trafford family of Hill Court, Herefordshire

FILE [no title] - ref. F8/II/477 - date: 1550
[from Scope and Content] Crown grant to Christopher Baynham, son and heir of
George Baynham dec., of lands held by his father.
--------------------------------

If he indeed married this particular Bridget Porter, and not say, her
namesake perhaps a niece, then either Bridget was quite his senior *or* she was an
exceptionally late child for her mother, who not only birthed her well into her
40s, but who also herself married as an infant.

Will Johnson

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 19 feb 2007 22:14:57

On Feb 16, 8:10�am, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 15, 10:05 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:





In a message dated 2/15/07 12:06:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,

jbrec...@gmail.com writes:

14 Malise, 7th Earl of Strathern
 15 Matida, of Orkney & Caithness

I'd be suspicious of this connection with a full citation to the proof.
Malise the 7th Earl had a full sister Maud (Matilda) who m Robert de Toeni
(or Tosny)
Robert was b 4 Apr 1276 and they were married 26 Apr 1293 (date of
settlement) so that gives you a fair idea of how old Maud might have been.

It would be a natural enough argument that Maud (Matilda)  was named for her
grand-mother, although Maud is a common enough name.  And that is where I have
Matilda of Orkney, as the wife of Malise the 5th Earl of Strathearn who d bef
23 Nov 1271 in France (citing GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com 2005-11-09
(November) and genealogics)

This older Matilda was I presume the one who was supposed to be a daughter of
Magnus

Hello All,

I am sorry I didn't mean to post the number system twice. I thought
the first hadn't posted hence the second "attempt"! I'm not very good
at this but I hopefully will improve!

Please feel free to comment on it. Any information to confirm or
exclude the above is welcome.

Will,

Thank you for that. I will visit the library when I get time to check
on the author's sources. Any other mistakes that you see?

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cheyne's source on the above information is quoted as;

Wood's Peerage of Scotland. II. 559- Cumming Bruce's 'Bruces and
Comyns' 315, 55.

Does anyone have information on this source; is it seen as reliable?

Thanks,

Grothenwell

Gjest

Re: Pure English Royalty

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 feb 2007 22:15:18

In a message dated 2/19/07 9:35:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< In 1167, the Byzantine Emperor Manuel planned
'... to marry prince Bela, who had been given the name of Alexius in
Constantinople, to his daughter and to make him his heir, thus
securing
the union of Hungary with the Empire... However, the birth of a son
[1168] compelled the Emperor to abandon this plan which had roused
great
opposition in Constantinople, >>

That's interesting
Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe, Table 89
Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan
Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981

Says that they did marry in 1164 and divorced in 1168.
And in that same year 1168 he married Agnes (d 1184)

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Pure English Royalty

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 feb 2007 22:20:03

In a message dated 2/19/07 9:35:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< 1.1.1b.1.1a.1a Andrew II of Hungary*
----------------------------------------
Death: 21 Sep 1235[6],[7],[4]
Occ: King of Hungary 1201-1235

King of Hungary

he m. lstly Gertrude of Meran,
2ndly Yolande de Courtenay >>

And thirdly Beatrice de Este by whom
Stephen, Duke of Slavonia who marrying Catherine /Morosini/ had
Andrew III, King of /Hungary/ 1290-

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Montgomery Matters: parentage of Elizabeth de Eglinton

Legg inn av Gjest » 19 feb 2007 22:49:03

In a message dated 2/18/07 9:42:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< As to the marriage of Elizabeth de Eglinton, Andrew B. W.
MacEwen has proven (publication pending) that Sir Alexander
de Montgomery was the husband of Elizabeth, and the father
of Sir John de Montgomery (d. ca. 1428) by her. >>

Is this the same Alexander Montgomery who also married Margaret Douglas,
illegimate daughter of William, 1st Earl Douglas (William d May 1384)

Thanks
Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: Montgomery Matters: parentage of Elizabeth de Eglinton

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 19 feb 2007 23:11:58

Dear Will,

The Douglas marriage is doubtful; the Scots Peerage account (SP
III:427 or 428, I don't have it to hand at this time) states, as I
recall, that there is no evidence for it, and discusses the problems
with the identification of a daughter of that Earl of Douglas as a
wife of Montgomery (John or Alexander). I don't believe there is any
support for it even as a conjecture at this point.

Cheers,

John



On Feb 19, 4:46 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/18/07 9:42:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, ther...@aol.com
writes:

As to the marriage of Elizabeth de Eglinton, Andrew B. W.
MacEwen has proven (publication pending) that Sir Alexander
de Montgomery was the husband of Elizabeth, and the father
of Sir John de Montgomery (d. ca. 1428) by her.

Is this the same Alexander Montgomery who also married Margaret Douglas,
illegimate daughter of William, 1st Earl Douglas (William d May 1384)

Thanks
Will Johnson

jonathan kirton

Re: Court of Chivalry website, case 357 Kirton v. Davies

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 19 feb 2007 23:38:26

Thank you very much for posting this website; I was so
interested to find on it the above mentioned case, to
which I would like to add some comment. The researchers
and publishers of this case before the Court of Chivalry
did do a review of the Visitations of Somerset, as
detailed in their footnotes, but they did overlook the
most important one for which they were seeking, to find
records of the Kirtons named in this case. These appear
in the Visitation of London, 1568, (1963 reprint) page 87,
which shows that the William Kirton (bapt. Almesford /
Ansford, co. Somerset 6 July, 1564, bur. 17 Dec.,1652) named
in the case, was the 5th. son of Edward Kirton of London
& Almesford Park, Somerset (born circa 1530; headed
Certificate of Musters 1569, buried Almsford (sic) June, 1601)
who possessed the arms:- "Argent, a chevron between three
crosses crosslet, gules, with an annulet , or, on the
chevron" as described in the Visitation, which he held as
the 5th. son of his father, John Kirton of Burbiche (sic
Burbage), co. Wiltshire.
The Visitation shows clearly that this John Kirton was the
grandson, first in line of his grandfather, Stephen Kirton
of Wooton, co. Wiltshire, described as: "descended from a
younger line of Kirton".
From the foregoing, I believe that it is a safe
assumption that the John Kirton of Burbage, co. Wiltshire
possessed a blazon: "Argent, a chevron between three crosses
crosslet, gules".
We also find a rather strange note in the "Visitation of
Berkshire", p165, under Kirton:-
"In the notes of Robert Dale, Richmond Herald, of Wiltshire
Arms and descents the following occurs
(Wiltshire Archeological Society, Vol IX, p. 223, etc.):
[From] Berkshire 84, Kirton of Woton or Wooton a younger
brother from....
"Argent, a fess and in chief a chevron gules". London
[1568] 116 vide Middlesex."
"Middlesex Pedigrees", p.106 does indeed show a pedigree for
the Kirtons of Edmonton which is headed by two Alan de
Kirketons, father and son, the death of the father being
shown as 1361-2, while the son is the Alan / Allan de
Kirketon / Kyrton / Kirton of Biddenham, co. Bedfordshire,
Escheator for counties Bedfordshore & Buckinghamshire,
(ref. : CPR, Richard II, Vol. 3, p.177, membrane 11d, 26 May,
1386, Appointment of Alan Kirton escheator of the co. of
Bedfordshire; 20 March, 1387, escheator of co. Buckinghamshire
- 1 July, 1392, late escheator of co. Bucks., but in 1396
still shown as escheator of co. Bedfordshire. Calendar of
Misc. Inquests Post Mortem, Beds. & Bucks. 1392-1399, #172,
& # 221; Cal. of Close Rolls 1397, p.96 & 114-5 "of
Biddenham" "the late king's escheator for co. Bucks..
He was a descendent of Gilbert de Kirketon of Screveton
and Appleby, Westmorland, and had inherited the Kirketon
blazon: "Argent , a fesse and a chevron in chief gules",
as is shown in Harleian MS245, folio 27, p.2 on Alan's 1399
Declaration from Biddenham, sealed with this blazon, i.e.
exactly the blazon shown in Dale, Richmond Herald's note as
mentioned above.
So the conclusion HAS to be that the Kirtons of Wooton,
and subsequently of Burbage, co. Wilts., and subsequently of
Almesford / Ansford, and Castle Carey, co. Somerset, were
indeed descendents of the Kirtons of Screveton, Notts,. and,
subsequently of Biddenham, co. Bedfordshire.

SO, HOW did the Wiltshire and Somerset family come to
obtain an entirely different coat of arms, one that had no
doubt originally come from members of the Copledike family
of co. Lincolnshire ? (ref.: "Dictionary of British Arms -
Medieval Ordinary" Vol. 2 (editors:Woodcock, Grant & Graham,
MCMXCVI) p.322; "Arg. chev betw 3 crosses botonny fitchy Gu." John
COPILDIKE BG249. P. 323: "Arg. chev between 3 crosslets Gu."
John Copuldyk, Kt. 1402, d.1408 (Lincolnshire Pedigrees,
Maddison, Vol. 1, pgs.266,267. Copledike of Harrington,
Arms: "Argent, a chevron between three cross-crosslets gules".))

I have evolved a theory as to how this came about, and I
am hoping that members of this group will be willing to
review this summary and comment on it.

It became apparent that this blazon had been adopted by
Sir Edmund Kirton, Abbot of St. Peter's, Westminster, also
known as Westminster Abbey, sometime prior to the year
1466. Evidence for this can be found in Writhe's Book III,
page 100b, 15th. century, now held by the College of Arms
in London. The entry is written: "Sir Emond Kyrton, and the
arms are identified as: "Argent, a chevron between 3
crosses bottony, gules."
Another reference appears in Wrothesley's "Chevrons",
circa 1525, Part 1, now held by the Norfolk Record
Office, Norwich, which shows his name as "Sir Edmund
Kirton", with the same arms.
The latest edition of the Oxford Dictionary of National
Biography, Vol. 31, pgs. 820-1 show that Abbott Edmund Kirton
entered the Benedictine monastery in 1403-4. There seems to
be no record of his parentage, but the DNB makes the
suggestion that his name derives from the village where he
was born, although by circa 1390 surnames were in wide
use. Be that as it may, the Abbott identified strongly
with the family of Copledike, & the inscription on his
tomb showed the Copledike arms, and stated that he was
descended from the Copledikes, without providing any
information on how this had occurred. It would seem that
perhaps his mother may have been a Copledike, but there
does not seem to be any obvious candidate who might have
been his mother. The arms on the tomb evidently did
show the Cross crosslets fitchy version, but authorities
have stated that these two variations were often confused,
and this difference is not considered very significant.

The DNB goes on to state that in 1437 a certain Joan
BARTON, of 'Cotes' in Hertfordshire, bequethed to the
Abbot a silver chalice. It is believed that she was a
cousin of the abbott's. Her will also mentions an EDWARD
KIRTON, who is identified as a "canon", who must also
have been a monk, perhaps also attached to Westminster
Abbey, who was also apparently another relative, and, as
stated by the DNB, may have been Joan's brother.

It would seem very possible that this Canon Edward Kirton,
was one and the same man as the Edward Kirton who has
already been mentioned above, who was the second son of
Stephen Kirton of Wooton, Wilts., as recorded in the 1568
Visitation of London. The timing would be just about right.

My suspicion is that the Abbot held a quite powerful
position, close to the centre of government, and was
probably in a position to obtain what ever he wanted with
regard to a coat of arms. I suspect that on his death
in 1466 he passed his coat of arms by inheritance to his
possible relative, the Canon Edward Kirton, who, in turn,
at his death
passed the Abbot's coat of arms on by inheritance, either
to his elder brother, John Kirton of Wooton, co.
Wiltshire, or, more likely, to his own nephew, John Kirton
of Burbage, co. Wiltshire. This would provide a very
logical answer to the question posed above.

Can anybody suggest any way to try and prove that this
scenario was what actually occurred ?
Or make any other suggestion that could explain the
circumstances described above ?

My thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Jonathan Kirton

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Gjest » 20 feb 2007 03:36:02

In a message dated 2/17/07 8:30:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

<< 1570-1587 10 children baptised in London to Sarah and Thomas >>

Louise since you've made a study of these Owen of Condover would you know how
William Owen. esq of Condover who married Lettice Bagot (b 25 Nov 1606
Blithfield) is related to these other Owen of Condover families?

Will Johnson

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 feb 2007 13:24:43

In message of 19 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrechin@gmail.com> wrote:

On Feb 16, 8:10?am, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 15, 10:05 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/15/07 12:06:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,

jbrec...@gmail.com writes:

14 Malise, 7th Earl of Strathern
?15 Matida, of Orkney & Caithness

I'd be suspicious of this connection with a full citation to the
proof. Malise the 7th Earl had a full sister Maud (Matilda) who m
Robert de Toeni (or Tosny) Robert was b 4 Apr 1276 and they were
married 26 Apr 1293 (date of settlement) so that gives you a fair
idea of how old Maud might have been.

It would be a natural enough argument that Maud (Matilda) ?was
named for her grand-mother, although Maud is a common enough name.
?And that is where I have Matilda of Orkney, as the wife of Malise
the 5th Earl of Strathearn who d bef 23 Nov 1271 in France (citing
GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com 2005-11-09 (November) and genealogics)

This older Matilda was I presume the one who was supposed to be a
daughter of Magnus

I am sorry I didn't mean to post the number system twice. I thought
the first hadn't posted hence the second "attempt"! I'm not very good
at this but I hopefully will improve!

Please feel free to comment on it. Any information to confirm or
exclude the above is welcome.

Thank you for that. I will visit the library when I get time to check
on the author's sources. Any other mistakes that you see?

Cheyne's source on the above information is quoted as;

Wood's Peerage of Scotland. II. 559- Cumming Bruce's 'Bruces and
Comyns' 315, 55.

Does anyone have information on this source; is it seen as reliable?

James Balfour Paul's "The Scots Peerage", completed in 1914, has the
following on its title page:

The Scots Peerage
Founded on Wood's Edition
of Sir Robert Douglas's
Peerage of Scotland
...

Paul's Scots Peerage is undoubtedly a reputable document though
inevitably superceded by later discoveries but it is not clear from your
reference whether you are referring to that or to the earlier Wood's
'Peerage' or the apparently even earlier Douglas' 'Peerage'.

Are you able to clarify which Scots Peerage you might be referring to?
Can you give dates of Cheyne's book or of the Peerage to which he
refers?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Christopher Baynham / Bridget Porter

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 feb 2007 13:56:03

In message of 19 Feb, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Thank you Louise for pointing out that Tim Powys-Lybbe had the Mary
Throckmorton/Thomas Baskerville connection.

While mousing around on his site I noticed the following

1) Christopher Baynham married Bridget Porter
2) This Christopher was the son of Sir George Baynham by his wife
Cecilia Gage http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps34/ps34_156.htm
3) Bridget is given as the daughter of Roger Porter by his wife
Margaret Arthur
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps34/ps34_155.htm
4) Roger Porter and Margaret Arthur are given as married "ca 1482"
http://www.southfarm.plus.com/pl_tree/ps34/ps34_149.htm
----------------------------------------------
Contrasting that we do know when George Baynham and Cecilia Gage married

Item A
East Sussex Record Office: Archive of the Gage family of Firle
[SAS/G21/1 - SAS/G46/14]
Archive of Gage family of Firle Catalogue
Ref. SAS/G
Creator(s): Gage family of East Sussex, Viscounts Gage

FAMILY SETTLEMENTS
FILE - Counterpart settlement - ref. SAS/G21/5 - date: 15 Dec 1527
[from Scope and Content] John Gage, kt, vice-chamberlain of the king, and
Christopher Baynham, kt and his son and heir George Baynham, esq; GB
to marry JG's daughter Cecile

----------------
Therefore if Christopher was their son he could not be born before
1528. And in fact we know he was an adult by 1550

Item B
Herefordshire Record Office: Records of Hill Court Estate
Records of Hill Court Estate
Catalogue Ref. F8
Creator(s): Trafford family of Hill Court, Herefordshire

FILE [no title] - ref. F8/II/477 - date: 1550
[from Scope and Content] Crown grant to Christopher Baynham, son and heir of
George Baynham dec., of lands held by his father.
--------------------------------

If he indeed married this particular Bridget Porter, and not say, her
namesake perhaps a niece, then either Bridget was quite his senior
*or* she was an exceptionally late child for her mother, who not only
birthed her well into her 40s, but who also herself married as an
infant.

Thanks for the above.

What must be remembered in all these people is that I was trying in
particular to give an account of all the people and relationships in
Smyth's 'Lives of the Berkeleys' (written between 1628 and 1640). In
particular I added on the above page on Bridget Porter:

"Smyth says she was the dau. of Roger and brother of Arthur, while
Visitation [of Glos] says she was the dau. of Arthur and brother of
Thomas. Take your pick!"

Smyth's accounts of remote Berkeley relations of this period are
frequently suspect. I think he relied on pedigrees that he had been
given and had not researched from surviving documents, which he
definitely did for the main Berkeley line (and as you are able to do
now). See http://www.southfarm.plus.com/berkeley/index.html


--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Montgomery Matters: parentage of Elizabeth de Eglinton

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 20 feb 2007 14:19:09

In message of 19 Feb, "John P. Ravilious" <therav3@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Will,

The Douglas marriage is doubtful; the Scots Peerage account (SP
III:427 or 428, I don't have it to hand at this time) states, as I
recall, that there is no evidence for it, and discusses the problems
with the identification of a daughter of that Earl of Douglas as a
wife of Montgomery (John or Alexander). I don't believe there is any
support for it even as a conjecture at this point.

SP III, 427, has:

"According to the Memorials he [Alexander Montgomerie] married 'a
daughter of William, first Earl of Douglas, and his wife Margaret,
daughter of the Earl of Dunbar and March,' but as William, Earl of
Douglas (see that title) had no such wife nor daughter, the name of
Alexander Mongomerie's wife remains unknown."

'Memorials' is 'Memorials of the Montgomeries, Earls of Eglinton' by Sir
William Fraser, publication date not given.

On Feb 19, 4:46 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/18/07 9:42:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
ther...@aol.com writes:

As to the marriage of Elizabeth de Eglinton, Andrew B. W.
MacEwen has proven (publication pending) that Sir Alexander
de Montgomery was the husband of Elizabeth, and the father
of Sir John de Montgomery (d. ca. 1428) by her.

Is this the same Alexander Montgomery who also married Margaret
Douglas, illegimate daughter of William, 1st Earl Douglas (William d
May 1384)

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 20 feb 2007 19:34:15

On Feb 20, 12:24�pm, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 19 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:





On Feb 16, 8:10?am, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 15, 10:05 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/15/07 12:06:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,

jbrec...@gmail.com writes:

14 Malise, 7th Earl of Strathern
?15 Matida, of Orkney & Caithness

I'd be suspicious of this connection with a full citation to the
proof. Malise the 7th Earl had a full sister Maud (Matilda) who m
Robert de Toeni (or Tosny) Robert was b 4 Apr 1276 and they were
married 26 Apr 1293 (date of settlement) so that gives you a fair
idea of how old Maud might have been.

It would be a natural enough argument that Maud (Matilda) ?was
named for her grand-mother, although Maud is a common enough name.
?And that is where I have Matilda of Orkney, as the wife of Malise
the 5th Earl of Strathearn who d bef 23 Nov 1271 in France (citing
GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com 2005-11-09 (November) and genealogics)

This older Matilda was I presume the one who was supposed to be a
daughter of Magnus

I am sorry I didn't mean to post the number system twice. I thought
the first hadn't posted hence the second "attempt"! I'm not very good
at this but I hopefully will improve!

Please feel free to comment on it. Any information to confirm or
exclude the above is welcome.

Thank you for that. I will visit the library when I get time to check
on the author's sources. Any other mistakes that you see?

Cheyne's source on the above information is quoted as;

Wood's Peerage of Scotland. II. 559- Cumming Bruce's 'Bruces and
Comyns' 315, 55.

Does anyone have information on this source; is it seen as reliable?

James Balfour Paul's "The Scots Peerage", completed in 1914, has the
following on its title page:

  The Scots Peerage
  Founded on Wood's Edition
  of Sir Robert Douglas's
  Peerage of Scotland
  ...

Paul's Scots Peerage is undoubtedly a reputable document though
inevitably superceded by later discoveries but it is not clear from your
reference whether you are referring to that or to the earlier Wood's
'Peerage' or the apparently even earlier Douglas' 'Peerage'.

Are you able to clarify which Scots Peerage you might be referring to?
Can you give dates of Cheyne's book or of the Peerage to which he
refers?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          t...@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Tim,

Thanks for that.

"The Cheyne Family in Scotland" by Lieut. Colonel A. Y. Cheyne was
published in 1931. Unfortunately I do not have the book at hand to
check further into whether he mentions which edition of Wood's he
used. When I last read it, I tried to find that information but didn't
find it.

Thanks,

Grothenwell

Tony Hoskins

Re: The question "Who was Sir Henry Dudley?" still remains t

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 21 feb 2007 20:48:31

"I still wish this all could be edited and see print."

As do I, and so, I am sure, would Marshall. Comparing with Marshall
years ago the nuances and relative merits of his two tantalizing
possible identifications 1) Thomas Dudley-Sir Henry Dudley, son of John,
4th Lord Dudley, and 2) Winslow-Greville, I expressed surprise that of
these two cases - both unproved though powerful hypotheses - the Dudley
one should "catch on" to the extent it did, published and circulated
widely, while to my mind the Winslow-Greville case was the stronger.

Gov. Thomas Dudley's sons being Samuel, Joseph, and Paul, not only is
there no "name evidence" suggesting a link to (a) Sir Henry, it is
important to likewise note that there also is not to be found among the
Governor's sons a Roger or a Thomas. Might this possibly suggest a
conscious break the Governor made with his immediate ancestry, at least
in so far as assigning family names might indicate? The only positive
name evidence (for what it's worth), though not terribly strong, for the
identification of Roger as son of Sir Henry, son of John, 4th Lord
Dudley, is that this Sir Henry had a younger brother named Thomas.

Both of Marshall's brilliant cases deserve further development.


Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Bradbury [was The question "Who was Sir Henry Dudley?"]

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 feb 2007 23:32:57

Nat,



I've been watching for this, and saw NEHGS's recent e-mail announcement that it would

appear in the next issue of NEHGR, but haven't yet received that issue. Has your issue

already arrived?



Dave Morehouse

Hopkins, MN

***

I should say that a thoughtful, concise article based on Marshall's

research into the Thomas Bradbury ancestry, showing a *possible* royal

descent via the Whitgift and Fulnetby families, and substantially edited

(perhaps one should say written) by Martin Hollick, has just appeared in

the latest issue of the New England Historical and Genealogical

Register.



Thank you, Martin!



Nat Taylor

http://www.nltaylor.net





________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Gjest

Re: Bradbury [was The question "Who was Sir Henry Dudley?"]

Legg inn av Gjest » 21 feb 2007 23:41:05

Dear D M Morehouse,
I recieved my copy yesterday. Nice Job,
Martin.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 feb 2007 08:28:58

Which, for me at least, makes the implosion of the family's fortunes
all the stranger!

Does anybody have any idea what happened?? I've been trawling through
thick, scholarly tomes on the subject of 'English Intervention in
France and Portugal during the 100 Years War' and similar subjects...
lots of details but I'm still having a difficult time trying to weed
out just what happened to this (the Roeulx) family that seemingly also
didn't happen to Ligne and some of the other similarly high families
of Hainault.

Maybe it's something really plainly obvious to people in the know and
perhaps, plainly, I'm just not in the know.

If anyone can add some wattage to this particular dim bulb... ;-)

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com

On Feb 12, 2:34 pm, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
Dear Will, Douglas and other interested parties,
I
found a website on the area of Bugnicourt which contains the following information
on Eustache d` Auberchicourt namely that He served under Edward, the Black
Prince at the Battle of Poitiers and was taken prisoner. He remained in French
custody until ransom of 12000 francs was paid in 1370. He then entered the
service of Charles II, King of Navarre died 1387. An Interesting tidbit from
Genealogics.org, the Sires de Roeulx would have stood an excellent chance of
becoming Count of Flanders if They had decided to follow a Salic type succession
on the death of Count Baldwin IX., as Eustace I de Roeulx was son of Arnold of
Hainault and grandson of Count Baldwin II of Hainault.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 feb 2007 08:39:22

On Feb 12, 10:48 pm, "pierre_aro...@hotmail.com"
<pierre_aro...@hotmail.fr> wrote:
On 12 fév, 03:16, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/11/2007 3:51:06 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

denis.b-at-francogene....@fr.invalid writes:

Et si on continuait cette discussion en français, histoire de voir
qui est francophone ici ?

That would quite possibly (sans doute?) be quite hillarious.

J'en serais ravi (je poste en français à l'occasion), mais je ne
voudrais pas exclure ainsi de la présente discussion ceux qui ne
maîtrisent pas cette langue. Je n'ai en aucun cas voulu dire qu'il
était indispensable de parler un français impeccable pour avoir le
droit de s'intéresser aux généalogies de familles françaises, mais
cela suppose un minimum de curiosité pour cet idiome et surtout un peu
de modestie : une chose est de ne pas savoir le français, ce qui n'est
nullement un crime (beaucoup dans ce groupe sont prêts à aider ceux
qui rencontrent des difficultés de ce type et demandent poliment
assistance), une toute autre chose est de se prétendre un expert en la
matière et de pérorer sottement alors qu'au vrai l'on n'en comprend
pas un traître mot et que l'on pousse le manque de sérieux jusqu'à se
dispenser de compulser les dictionnaires. Faire de la généalogie,
particulièrement médiévale, cela requiert tout de même un brin
d'effort intellectuel, une dose de bonne foi et une bonne mesure
d'humilité, toutes qualités qui manquent cruellement à Monsieur
Richardson, comme il s'emploie à le démontrer journellement ici depuis
des années.

Pierre

I had the good fortune to do Latin at Grammar School, and to read
French and German in my undergraduate degree; having a reasonable
working knowledge of the first, and a passable fluency in the latter
two (particularly in reading them - your note made me smile, Pierre)
is of considerable benefit when it comes to mediaeval genealogy. If
folks are unable to express themselves satisfactorily in English -
unlike you and Denis - then it should be perfectly acceptable for them
to post in their native tongues here, rather than not post. As you
note, the group has various linguists who often kindly provide
translations for research purposes in the best collegial tradition; I
am always happy to have a stab if assistance is required.

MA-R

Peter Stewart

Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 22 feb 2007 09:05:23

<katheryn.swynford@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172129338.646000.304380@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Which, for me at least, makes the implosion of the family's fortunes
all the stranger!

Does anybody have any idea what happened?? I've been trawling through
thick, scholarly tomes on the subject of 'English Intervention in
France and Portugal during the 100 Years War' and similar subjects...
lots of details but I'm still having a difficult time trying to weed
out just what happened to this (the Roeulx) family that seemingly also
didn't happen to Ligne and some of the other similarly high families
of Hainault.

Roeulx was eventually inherited by the lords of Croy, became a countship in
the 16th century and belonged to the dukes of Croy from the 17th. The family
descended in a cadet line from the counts of Flanders & Hainaut died out in
the male line in 1287/8.

Peter Stewart

steven perkins

Fwd: Scottish genealogy-digitisation questionnaire

Legg inn av steven perkins » 22 feb 2007 13:51:37

From another list

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mcfarlane, Janice
Date: Feb 22, 2007 3:39 AM
Subject: [GENLOC] Scottish genealogy-digitisation questionnaire



For those who may be interested in influencing decisions on future
digitisation projects for Scottish genealogy electronic copies of a
'Questionnaire on possible future website links for genealogists' is
currently available from davina.williams@gro-scotland.gsi.gov.uk
Responses must be received by 16 March 2007.



'A new family history centre called 'ScotlandsPeople Centre' will open
in Edinburgh around Easter 2008. This Centre will have software that
will allow visitors to the Centre to access birth, death, marriage and
census records [already currently available over the web], as well as
wills and testaments and Arms and Heraldry. …



We want to take forward a digitisation programme in partnership with
the National Archives of Scotland, the National Library of Scotland,
the National Museum of Scotland, the National Galleries of Scotland,
the Registers of Scotland and the Royal Commission on the Ancient and
Historic Monuments of Scotland that will allow the collections held by
these organisations to be accessible on line through both the
ScotlandsPeople Centre software and the websites maintained by each of
the organisations.



As a collective partnership, we plan to request additional funds from
the Scottish Executive to digitise parts of the collections held by
the organisations listed above that would interest genealogists… we
need to know exactly which of the suggested themes … are of interest
to you. …'



Janice McFarlane
Enquiries & Reference Services Manager
National Library of Scotland
George IV Bridge
Edinburgh
EH1 1EW
Scotland, UK
Tel: +44 (0)131 623 3824
Fax: +44 (0)131 623 3830
Email: j.mcfarlane@nls.uk


*******************************************************************
Visit the National Library of Scotland online at http://www.nls.uk
*******************************************************************
This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you
are not the intended recipient, please notify the ICT Helpdesk on
+44 131 623 3700 or ict@nls.uk and delete this e-mail. The
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-------------------------

jonathan kirton

Westmorland High & under Sheriffs, revised, with additional

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 22 feb 2007 17:58:16

I have now dug out the list which I obtained from the
Cumbria Record office back in October, 2002, taken
from "Westmorland Shrievalty".

It clearly has quite a number of variations from the
Wikipedia list as last amended 21:16, 7 Feb., 2007.

I will repeat the C.R.O. list, with the notes and
references from the other sources, already mentioned,
in brackets (thus), together with a number of sources
which I have found, and will add some comments.

1129 Richard filius Gerardi de Appleby.

1174 Ranulf de Glanville.

(1176 Ranulf de Glanville. (D MUS 2/10/24 (c. 1189))
(Scope & Content))

1177 Ranulf de Glanville.

1189 Osbert de Longo Campo.(Osbert D MUS 2/10/24)

1192 Hugh Bardulf.

1195 Hugh Bardulf.

1199 Geoffrey filius Petri. (prob. 1199-1201 Geoffrey
FitzPeter & Roger BelloCampo)
(ref.:"History & Antiquities, Co. of Westm'r'l'd & Cumb". Vol. 1)
(Roger BelloCampo was probably the undersheriff.)

1200 William de Stuteville. (until 1202, with undersheriff
Philip Escrope, (c. 1208) (D MUS
2/10/67)

1203 - 28 Robert de Vetripont, married Idonea, dau. &
heiress of John Buily. (Baron; & Hereditary
High Sheriff; died prob. Jan., 1228)

1228 Hugo de Burgo. [until the coming of age of John,
the heir of Robert de Vetripont.]
(On 1 Feb., 1228
(ref.: CPR 12/13 Henry III,Vol.2, p.176-7, 296)
Gilbert de Kirketon of Screveton,
Notts. was
sent up to Appleby as co-constable / co-
custodian of the following castles: Appleby,
Braham (modern Brougham), Burgh, Boues
(modern Bowes, now in co.Durham) and
Malvestang (just west of Swaledale in NR
Yorks; since about 1300 known as
Pendragon Castle). Kirketon was evidently
a lawyer, and was at Appleby by 4 Aug.,
1228 when he was appointed as a
commissioner of justice. The writer suspects
that Kirketon was also serving as under-
sheriff to Hugo de Burgo at this time.
(Ref.: P.R.O. D/WYB/2/32; the entry not
dated, but is estimated as "early 13th. cent."))

(1230 Alexander Bachucton Sheriff of Westmorland D/WYB/2/115
(not dated but c.1230. Prob. also an undersheriff to Hugo de
Burgo.))

1234-42 John de Vetripont, who married Sibilla, dau. of
William
Ferrers, Earl of Derby. (John, son & heir
of Robert, now
assumed his hereditary position as High Sheriff, and it is
suspected that John de Kirketon, of
Screveton, Notts., the
younger son of Gilbert de Kirketon, served as
his under-
sheriff.)
(However in 1241 John de Vetripont died (ref. CPR) &
on 4 Aug., 1241 from Worcester, CPR 25 Henry III, Vol.3,
p. 255, membrane 5, states: "Appointment, during pleasure,
of Gilbert de Kirketon and Henry de Souleby to the
custody of the castles of Appleby and Brough under
Stainmore (Burgo) and all the lands late of John de
Veteri Ponte; and mandate to the tenants to be
intendant to them."

1241 John or Gilbert de Kirketon. (Ref.: P.R.O. DDHV/70/1. 8
July,1241.
It is almost certain that it was Gilbert de Kirketon, the
father, who served as interim High Sheriff, and that his
younger son, John de Kirketon continued on in the
position of undersheriff. This seems to have lasted until
c.1243. Gilbert was still in Appleby as late as 1247,
Ref.: Nicholson & Burns, (1777) "History of Westmorland &
Cumberland", Vol.1, p. 323:
"Testibus Magistris Domino Gilberto de Kirketon actum
Lundon (sic)." but subsequently he is believed to have
returned to his home in Notts., leaving his son John to
continue serving in Westmorland.)

1246 Ralph de Nottingham.

(c.1250 Roger de Stokes. Ref.: D/WYB/2/35 mid 13th. century.)

1256 Robert de Steynton.

1257 Robert de Vetripont, married Isabella Fitz-Peter,
sister &
afterwards co-heir of Richard, son of John
Fitz-Geoffrey. (Here it should be noted that Nicholson
& Burns, (1777), Vol. 1, ibid., p.33, state: "....Gilbert de
Kirketon then sheriff of Westmorland (that is, under-
sheriff to the then Robert de Vetripont)....." (the writer
is suspicious of this statement, and suspects an error,
and that this should read: "John de Kirketon" (?).


1261 Richard de Musgrave.

1275 Michael de Arcla.

1277 Isabella Clifford - relict of Roger Clifford & dau.
of Robert de
Vetripont.

(c.1283 Sir Thomas de Mussegrave. Ref.: D/WYB/2/38. Not dated,
but before 1283)

(1283-9 Sir Richard de Medburn. Ref.: D/WYB/2/42. Not dated.
Probably interim High
Sheriff)

1284 Richard de Medburn. (1284 Michael de Hartcla Ref.:
D/ WYB/116. He was probably the undersheriff.)

(1288 Robert de Morville. Ref.: D/WYB/2/43. Prob. also
undersheriff)

(c.1290 William de Steynton. Ref.: D MUS 2/10/88. Also
undersheriff ?)

1293 Thomas de Hellebec.

(1294 Thomas de Hellebec. WD D/MD 40)

1295 Ranulf de Mannerby

1297 Nicholas de Cliburne

1298 Robert de Clifford & Idonea de Leyburn (dau. of
Robert de
Vetripont). (Gilbert(2) de Kirketon of Appleby (son of John
de Kirketon, grandson of Gilbert (1) de Kirketon) served
as undersheriff to Robert de Clifford. (Ref.:
Calendar of
Charter Rolls, Vol.2, 1257-1300, p.453.))

1308 Robert de Clifford, son & heir of Roger de Clifford,
& (his aunt)
Isabella, [dau. of Robert de Vetripont]. (Served together
as joint High Sheriffs

(1312 Robert de Morwyll. Ref.: D HC 2/11/6. Prob. as
undersheriff .)

1314 Henry de Warthecop [interim High Sheriff during the
minority
of Roger de Clifford, heir to Robert de Clifford].

(1317 Henry de Warthecopp. Ref.: P.R.O. D/WYB/2/117)

1320 Roger de Clifford [attainted for treason].

(1320 Hugh de Louther. Ref.: SC 8/151/7531) (Interim
replacement)

1322 Walter de Stirkeland.

1322 Hugh de Louthre (1320-1322 Hugh de Louther Ref.: P.R.O.
Sc 8/151/7531; served from Oct., 1320 until Feb., 1322,
& also from Dec., 1322 until Jul., 1323)

1323 Patrick de Colewenne

1324-5 Henry de Threlkeld. Ref.: D MUS/2/10/31. [Prob.
Interim High
Sheriff.] (Henry de Threlkeld. Ref.: C 49/45/14).

1327 Robert de Clifford [mar. Isabel, dau of Maurice, Lord
Berkeley]

(1329 Thomas de Waryekop. Ref.: D/WYB/2/123. Prob.
undersheriff.)

(1330 Nicholas de Grendon. Ref.: SC 8/33/1650.
--------------------------.)

(1333 Robert de Sandford. Ref.: D MUS
2/10/32.--------------------------.)

(1342 Thomas de Musgrave. Ref.: D/WYB/2/124.
---------------------------.)

1344 John de Wateby, John de Morland, & Thomas de
Warthecop.
[All Feoffees of the shrievalty under royal licence.]

(1345 Robert de Clifford. IPM (he evidently died in
that year.))

1345 William de Langwathby.

1345 Ralph de Nevill.

1351 Thomas de Bello Campo [Beauchamp]

1354-89 Roger de Clifford [mar. Maud de Beauchamp].
(Ref.: P.R.O. SC 8/130/6466)

(1355 Hugh de Boure. Ref.: C 131/9/17. undersheriff.)

(1360 Henry de Threlkeld. Ref.: D/WYB/2/53. Evidently
undersheriff.
(back in 1324 somebody with the same name, perhaps
his father,
had served as interim High Sheriff.)


(1380 William de Lancaster. Ref.: WD RY/BOX 92/53.
(undersheriff.))

1389 Thomas Clifford. [mar. Elizabeth, dau. of Thomas, Lord
Roos.]

(1389 Walter de Stirkeland. Ref.: SC 8/222/11077
(undersheriff.))

1392 Anne, Queen of England. [wife of Richard II.]

1392-1411 Elizabeth, Lady Clifford. (1402 Ref.: Sc 8/119/5945)


(1403-1406 Thomas Warcop. Ref.: SC 8/23/1108. (undersheriff.))

(1406-1408 William de Thornburgh. Ref.: SC 8/23/1108.
(undersheriff.))

1411-22 John, Lord Clifford. [Mar. Elizabeth, dau. of Lord
Henry Percy.]

(1417-1418 Thomas Warcop. Ref.: SC 8/23/1108. (undersheriff.))

1422- 1438 Elizabeth, Lady Clifford, relict of John, Lord
Clifford.

1438 -55 Thomas, Lord Clifford. [Mar. Johanna, dau. of Thomas,
Lord Dacre.]

1457 William Lancaster, Esq..

1462 John Parr, for life; knighted 1472.

1475 Sir William Parr, Knt..

1483 Sir Richard Radclyffe, Knt..

1485 Roger Bellingham, Esq.,

1485 Richard Clifford, second son of John, Lord Clifford.

1486-1526 Henry, Lord Clifford. [Married Anne, d of Sir John
St. John.]
(1512 Ref.: C
131/97/16.)

1526 Henry, 11th. Lord Clifford, 1st. Earl of Cumberland.

I will leave it to others to decide what to add to the
Wikipedia list .

Hope this is of interest,

Jonathan Kirton

P.S. I should note that between 1200 and 1500 this surname
"de Kirketon" or "de Kyrketon" gradually evolved into
variations;
most commonly "Kirton", or "Kyrton, but it is often
"Kerton", and
particularly in north-west England it is very often
'Kearton", and
there are sometimes a good number of additional variations.
J.G.K.












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DaHoorn

Re: Bradbury [was The question "Who was Sir Henry Dudley?"]

Legg inn av DaHoorn » 22 feb 2007 18:01:35

Can't wait to read up on this line. Thomas Bradbury was another
maternal ancestor of mine.

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S

Legg inn av Gjest » 22 feb 2007 23:56:29

AFAIK, the Croy's did not INHERIT Roeulx. Eustace, the last lord of
Roeulx, disinherited himself, his brother Fastre and his brother Huon
for reasons I don't understand and this allowed the inheritance to
pass back to the Count of Hainault, in turn allowing I think it was
the Empress Marguerite to grant it to the family of Croy. Why would
Eustace do that when there were plenty of male and female heirs
around?? Other Hainault families of similar status, such as Ligne,
Lalaing etc. didn't suffer this fate.

Maybe it's something very obvious but I still don't understand it.

Judy
http://www.katherineswynford.net
http://katherineswynford.blogspot.com

On Feb 22, 12:05 am, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Roeulx was eventually inherited by the lords of Croy, became a countship in
the 16th century and belonged to the dukes of Croy from the 17th. The family
descended in a cadet line from the counts of Flanders & Hainaut died out in
the male line in 1287/8.

Peter Stewart

jonathan kirton

Re: Sir Richard Whetehill

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 23 feb 2007 13:54:11

Dear Leo,

I have no proof that your Sir Richard Whetehill also had
a son, but I suspect
that he did, for the following reasons:

1. Middlesex Pedigrees, p. 106, Kirton of Edmonton.
See: Stephen Kirton, of London, Alderman of the City of
London, & of
Edmonton, Middlesex. and his wife Margaret (nee
Offley), had an eldest
daughter, Jane (born: 1530; married: 1546, aged 16, to
Richard Wethill.

2. "Survey of London" (1603) by John Stow, p. 145: Stephen
Kyrton, merchant
Taylor, Alderman, 1553.
p.151, Limestreete Ward: shows mentions of Stephen Kirton,
and in the last
paragraph states:
"Next unto this on the high streete, was the Lord Sowches
Messuage or
tenement, and other. In place whereof RICHARDE WETHELL
(note 1 shows
alternate spelling: WHETHILL, 1598), Merchant Taylor, builded
a fayre house,
with an high Tower, the seconde in number, and first of
tymber, that euer I
learned to have been builded to overlooke neighbours in
this Citie.'
p. 152: "This Richard then a young man, became in short
time so tormented
with goutes in his ioynts (sic. joints), of the hands and
legges, that he could
nether feede him selfe, nor goe further then he was led,
much less was he
able to climbe, and take the pleasure of his Tower."

3. Stephen Kirton's will (P.C.C. 17 Tashe) written: 1 Feb.,
1552, proved 29 Aug.
1553-4. "Item I will further that yf my Children their
partes do amounte to
euery of them in goodes above the value of two hundredth
poundes str. for
so much I dyd give unto my sonne in lawe Rochard
Whethill to the
marriage of my daughter, That then my said sonne in lawe
shalhaue the
hole cost ouer and above two hundred poundes. And if my
childrens partes
do not amounte to the said value then I will and
bequethe unto my said
sonne in lawe Richard Withill for his paynes taken in
ayding my wief the
some of twentie poundes."


Hope this will be of interest.

Jonathan Kirton

John Higgins

Re: Sir Richard Whetehill

Legg inn av John Higgins » 23 feb 2007 18:55:46

Walter Goodwin Davis, in his "Ancestry of Mary Isaac", mentions the Richard
Whetehill who mar. Jane Kirton in a fottnote to the Whetehill chapter of
the book. This Richard was of a Whetehill family of Leicestershire which
bore totally different arms from the Whetehills of Calais (who apparently
came from Northamptonshire via London). This Richard was (as far as is
known) totally unrelated to Sir Richard of Calais and his family. Confusion
apparently arises because this other Richard apparently had some dealings in
Calais as well.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jonathan kirton" <jonathankirton@sympatico.ca>
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
Cc: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: Sir Richard Whetehill


Dear Leo,

I have no proof that your Sir Richard Whetehill also had
a son, but I suspect
that he did, for the following reasons:

1. Middlesex Pedigrees, p. 106, Kirton of Edmonton.
See: Stephen Kirton, of London, Alderman of the City of
London, & of
Edmonton, Middlesex. and his wife Margaret (nee
Offley), had an eldest
daughter, Jane (born: 1530; married: 1546, aged 16, to
Richard Wethill.

2. "Survey of London" (1603) by John Stow, p. 145: Stephen
Kyrton, merchant
Taylor, Alderman, 1553.
p.151, Limestreete Ward: shows mentions of Stephen Kirton,
and in the last
paragraph states:
"Next unto this on the high streete, was the Lord Sowches
Messuage or
tenement, and other. In place whereof RICHARDE WETHELL
(note 1 shows
alternate spelling: WHETHILL, 1598), Merchant Taylor, builded
a fayre house,
with an high Tower, the seconde in number, and first of
tymber, that euer I
learned to have been builded to overlooke neighbours in
this Citie.'
p. 152: "This Richard then a young man, became in short
time so tormented
with goutes in his ioynts (sic. joints), of the hands and
legges, that he could
nether feede him selfe, nor goe further then he was led,
much less was he
able to climbe, and take the pleasure of his Tower."

3. Stephen Kirton's will (P.C.C. 17 Tashe) written: 1 Feb.,
1552, proved 29 Aug.
1553-4. "Item I will further that yf my Children their
partes do amounte to
euery of them in goodes above the value of two hundredth
poundes str. for
so much I dyd give unto my sonne in lawe Rochard
Whethill to the
marriage of my daughter, That then my said sonne in lawe
shalhaue the
hole cost ouer and above two hundred poundes. And if my
childrens partes
do not amounte to the said value then I will and
bequethe unto my said
sonne in lawe Richard Withill for his paynes taken in
ayding my wief the
some of twentie poundes."


Hope this will be of interest.

Jonathan Kirton


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Gjest

Re: Scottish & Irish Drinking Customs (The Highlander)

Legg inn av Gjest » 23 feb 2007 21:06:04

PLEASE could people stop sending messages about this subject to SGM.
It's not that we don't like Scotch.
It's not that we don't think you are all lovely, learned and wiity people.

It is simply that this is a site about medieval genealogy, and that you
could easily start another group about scotch where we could benefit (if we
wanted) from your delightful exchanges

John Brandon

Re: Scottish & Irish Drinking Customs (The Highlander)

Legg inn av John Brandon » 23 feb 2007 21:19:35

Yes, it's getting old right about now.

On Feb 23, 3:03 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
PLEASE could people stop sending messages about this subject to SGM.
It's not that we don't like Scotch.
It's not that we don't think you are all lovely, learned and wiity people.

It is simply that this is a site about medieval genealogy, and that you
could easily start another group about scotch where we could benefit (if we
wanted) from your delightful exchanges

taf

Re: Scottish & Irish Drinking Customs (The Highlander)

Legg inn av taf » 24 feb 2007 01:38:14

On Feb 23, 1:03 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
PLEASE could people stop sending messages about this subject to SGM.
It's not that we don't like Scotch.
It's not that we don't think you are all lovely, learned and wiity people.

It is simply that this is a site about medieval genealogy, and that you
could easily start another group about scotch where we could benefit (if we
wanted) from your delightful exchanges

The problem is that they, with one exception, do not know that they
are posting to soc.genealogy.medieval, and won't see your request.

Back at the end of January, a USENET crank going by the name
Sound_of_Trumpet posted an article entitled "Calling Islam Medieval Is
A Vicious Slander Of Our Christian Ancestors" to a long list of USENET
groups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, alt.atheism,
alt.anarchism, soc.history.ancient, soc.history.medieval. Now this
last is a group followed by a certain D. Spencer Hines, who decided to
'share' the information, repeating a portion in a crosspost to a much
longer list of groups: alt.history.british,
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, sci.military.naval,
soc.culture.irish, soc.culture.scottish, soc.history.ancient,
soc.history.medieval, us.military.army. Note in particular that he
has added a range of groups irrelevant to the original content, most
importantly for our purposes, the Irish and Scottish culture groups.
Largely due to the number of groups to which this was sent and its
inflamatory nature, this thread has now had more than 700
contributions, and the topic drifted such as to have absolutely
nothing to do with its originating post. Fortunately, since most
USENET providers block such monstrously crossposted messages, the
readers of most of these groups did not see the thread, but that was
soon to change.

Highlander, a participant in the Scottish culture group, either was
acting responsibly or conversely wanted to dodge the crosspost block,
so he trimmed the original eight groups to three, soc.culture.irish,
soc.culture.scottish and soc.history.medieval. A few posts later, he
made a comment about the a particular drinking custom.

Mr. Hines then decided that his wisdom was too great to be limited to
just three groups, and decided to add several, including soc.gen.med,
renaming it to "Scottish & Irish Drinking Customs". This is the first
that we saw the discussion, and the rest, as they say, is history.

The point is that it is doubtful that any of the participants except
for Mr. Hines even know that he added the extra groups, and that they
are posting to soc.genealogy.medieval. None of the participants follow
the group. It is only here because Hines decided we needed to see
it. (It is simple harassment on his part, probably in revenge for
negative comments made about him during his last foray into the
group.) Importantly, since they don't read the group, they will not
read your comments, which were only posted to this group. Further,
were you to post to all of the groups, complaining about the
crossposting, then invariably someone would simply crosspost a
complaint about you using a crosspost to complain about crossposting,
and even if you convinced them to remove the crosspost, Hines would
probably restore it, out of simple spite.

To a degree it is a no-win situation, and we must just hope they get
bored with it, but a free-form discussion like this can go on for
months or (heaven help us) years.

taf

Hal Bradley

RE: More Fairclough of Goldington

Legg inn av Hal Bradley » 24 feb 2007 02:34:32

FWIW, another small addition:

The marriage of John Fairclough's son, Thomas, to Mary Harvey is recorded 30
Sep 1602 in the parish of Thurleigh, co. Bedford.

Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of wjhonson
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 4:21 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: More Fairclough of Goldington


The Visitation of Hertfordshire 1572 on page 52 "Fairclough"

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC2 ... oEAAAAIAAJ
&pg=RA2-PA1&lpg=RA2-PA1&dq=visitations#PRA2-PA52,M1

Shows that Thomas Fairclough and his wife Millicent Barr (or Barre)
had as eldest son John who married Anne, da of Thomas Spencer of
Cople, Bedf and this last couple had a number of children which the
Visitation enumerates.

I was meandering about checking on various "Dorothy whoever's" living
in Goldington and stumbled on the full list of baptisms for John and
(presumbly) Anne which I give here

http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... _Faircloth

Hopefully this additional specification can solve a few more
chronological questions.


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gjest

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av Gjest » 24 feb 2007 14:11:02

For Will Johnson
Dear Will,
You might like to have the references to some Spencer of Cople Wills:-
Nicholas (1644) PROB11/192
William (16 ) PROB11/383
Nicholas (1688) PROB 11/454

If you do a google search on spencer + nominy, you will find a deal of
information about this family's activity in Virginia,, where Nicholas Spencer was
Secretary of the colony and owned an enormous estate at Nominy.
Best regards
MM

John Higgins

Re: Sir Richard Whetehill

Legg inn av John Higgins » 24 feb 2007 18:21:11

According to Davis, Sir Richard Whetehill (d. 1537) and his wife Elizabeth Muston had 14 children, but only 7 are identified (based primarily on the wills of Sir Richard and his wife). They are:

Elizabeth, m. (as his 2nd wife) John St. John of Lydiard Tregoz (d. 1576)
Robert, m. Jane Greenfield [or Grenville] of Calais
Margaret, m. (1) Robert Creyke of Ryton; m. (2) NN Fitton
Gilbert
Nicholas, m. (her 2nd Dorothy Mantell
Margery, m. Edward Isaac of Well
Katherine

----- Original Message -----
From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: jthiggins@sbcglobal.net ; GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: Sir Richard Whetehill


John does the ancestry of Mary Isaac mention by name all the children of
Richard Whetehill of Calais (d abt 1536/7) ?
Thanks
Will************************************** AOL now offers free email to
everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Attack On Princess Diana's Sexual Morals & Genetic Herit

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 24 feb 2007 20:44:13

Precisely!

I pointed it out and quoted the source.

DSH

"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:erons2$8g3$1@mouse.otenet.gr...

A reminder to you, that Harry was already a toddler when Diana and Hewitt
first met, as someone else pointed out.

wjhonson

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av wjhonson » 25 feb 2007 03:40:52

On Feb 24, 5:08 am, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
For Will Johnson
Dear Will,
You might like to have the references to some Spencer of Cople Wills:-
Nicholas (1644) PROB11/192
William (16 ) PROB11/383
Nicholas (1688) PROB 11/454

If you do a google search on spencer + nominy, you will find a deal of
information about this family's activity in Virginia,, where Nicholas Spencer was
Secretary of the colony and owned an enormous estate at Nominy.
Best regards
MM

Thanks for this. As I posted on the page for Nicholas (d 1644)
http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... I_of_Cople
I think BHO is wrong about saying that William who was seized of
Rowlands in 1691 was "son and heir" of *this* Nicholas. I believe
rather that that William who was seized in 1691 was son and heir of
the Nicholas who d 1688 as your above will.

I'm a little annoyed that the William who was married to Katherine
Wentworth (who d.s.p.) doesn't seem to appear in the register at
Cople. He should (I believe) be the eldest son and thus heir to
Nicholas d 1644. This William then at his *own* death would pass
Rowlands to his *brother* Nicholas who d 1688 per your above will, who
himself had at least two sons, William the eldest (seized in 1691) and
Nicholas the second son.

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 25 feb 2007 04:32:06

How does this Spencer of Cople line relate to Diana's Spencers -- if at all?

DSH

"wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1172371252.610485.4780@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 24, 5:08 am, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
For Will Johnson
Dear Will,
You might like to have the references to some Spencer of Cople Wills:-
Nicholas (1644) PROB11/192
William (16 ) PROB11/383
Nicholas (1688) PROB 11/454

If you do a google search on spencer + nominy, you will find a deal of
information about this family's activity in Virginia,, where Nicholas
Spencer was
Secretary of the colony and owned an enormous estate at Nominy.
Best regards
MM

Thanks for this. As I posted on the page for Nicholas (d 1644)
http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... I_of_Cople
I think BHO is wrong about saying that William who was seized of
Rowlands in 1691 was "son and heir" of *this* Nicholas. I believe
rather that that William who was seized in 1691 was son and heir of
the Nicholas who d 1688 as your above will.

I'm a little annoyed that the William who was married to Katherine
Wentworth (who d.s.p.) doesn't seem to appear in the register at
Cople. He should (I believe) be the eldest son and thus heir to
Nicholas d 1644. This William then at his *own* death would pass
Rowlands to his *brother* Nicholas who d 1688 per your above will, who
himself had at least two sons, William the eldest (seized in 1691) and
Nicholas the second son.

wjhonson

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av wjhonson » 25 feb 2007 05:04:27

On Feb 24, 7:32 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
How does this Spencer of Cople line relate to Diana's Spencers -- if at all?

DSH

"wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1172371252.610485.4780@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...



On Feb 24, 5:08 am, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
For Will Johnson
Dear Will,
You might like to have the references to some Spencer of Cople Wills:-
Nicholas (1644) PROB11/192
William (16 ) PROB11/383
Nicholas (1688) PROB 11/454

If you do a google search on spencer + nominy, you will find a deal of
information about this family's activity in Virginia,, where Nicholas
Spencer was
Secretary of the colony and owned an enormous estate at Nominy.
Best regards
MM

Thanks for this. As I posted on the page for Nicholas (d 1644)
http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... r_II_of_...
I think BHO is wrong about saying that William who was seized of
Rowlands in 1691 was "son and heir" of *this* Nicholas. I believe
rather that that William who was seized in 1691 was son and heir of
the Nicholas who d 1688 as your above will.

I'm a little annoyed that the William who was married to Katherine
Wentworth (who d.s.p.) doesn't seem to appear in the register at
Cople. He should (I believe) be the eldest son and thus heir to
Nicholas d 1644. This William then at his *own* death would pass
Rowlands to his *brother* Nicholas who d 1688 per your above will, who
himself had at least two sons, William the eldest (seized in 1691) and
Nicholas the second son.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This line I've been looking at, should go like
Robert Spencer, Esq of Cople, Bedfordshire
b abt 1533 died 1620 buried at Cople
married Rose Cokayne of Cokayne Hatley

Robert was the son of
Thomas Spencer of Cople, Bedfordshire died 1547
by his wife Anne Bulkeley of Burgate, Southampton

Thomas was the son of
John Spencer of Cople, Bedfordshire
living and an adult by 1531 when he made a settlement of the manor of
Rowlands

John was the son of Robert Spencer, holding land in Cople "a few years
earlier" (as "A History of the County of Bedford")

See http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... r_of_Cople

On the other hand, for the paternal ancestry of Princess Diana during
this period I show

Robert Spencer (1570-1627), 1st Baron /Spencer/ of Wormleighton
son of
John /Spencer/ of Wormleighton (d 1599)
son of
John /Spencer/ , Knt of Wormleighton (d 1586)
son of
William /Spencer/ (d 1532)
son of
John /Spencer/ of Snitterfield and Wormleighton (d 1522)
son of
William /Spencer/ and Elizabeth /Empson/ (died ???)
son of
Henry /Spencer/ of Badby (d 1477/8)

So it doesn't look like there's an obvious connection here.

Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Spencer of Cople, Beds

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 25 feb 2007 05:33:46

Thank you.

It's not that uncommon a name, I suppose.

After all there were many "dispensers" on various estates.

DSH

"wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1172376267.341740.162470@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

On Feb 24, 7:32 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com
wrote:

How does this Spencer of Cople line relate to Diana's Spencers -- if at
all?

DSH

"wjhonson" <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1172371252.610485.4780@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...



On Feb 24, 5:08 am, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
For Will Johnson
Dear Will,
You might like to have the references to some Spencer of Cople
Wills:-
Nicholas (1644) PROB11/192
William (16 ) PROB11/383
Nicholas (1688) PROB 11/454

If you do a google search on spencer + nominy, you will find a deal of
information about this family's activity in Virginia,, where Nicholas
Spencer was
Secretary of the colony and owned an enormous estate at Nominy.
Best regards
MM

Thanks for this. As I posted on the page for Nicholas (d 1644)
http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... r_II_of_...
I think BHO is wrong about saying that William who was seized of
Rowlands in 1691 was "son and heir" of *this* Nicholas. I believe
rather that that William who was seized in 1691 was son and heir of
the Nicholas who d 1688 as your above will.

I'm a little annoyed that the William who was married to Katherine
Wentworth (who d.s.p.) doesn't seem to appear in the register at
Cople. He should (I believe) be the eldest son and thus heir to
Nicholas d 1644. This William then at his *own* death would pass
Rowlands to his *brother* Nicholas who d 1688 per your above will, who
himself had at least two sons, William the eldest (seized in 1691) and
Nicholas the second son.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This line I've been looking at, should go like
Robert Spencer, Esq of Cople, Bedfordshire
b abt 1533 died 1620 buried at Cople
married Rose Cokayne of Cokayne Hatley

Robert was the son of
Thomas Spencer of Cople, Bedfordshire died 1547
by his wife Anne Bulkeley of Burgate, Southampton

Thomas was the son of
John Spencer of Cople, Bedfordshire
living and an adult by 1531 when he made a settlement of the manor of
Rowlands

John was the son of Robert Spencer, holding land in Cople "a few years
earlier" (as "A History of the County of Bedford")

See http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... r_of_Cople

On the other hand, for the paternal ancestry of Princess Diana during
this period I show

Robert Spencer (1570-1627), 1st Baron /Spencer/ of Wormleighton
son of
John /Spencer/ of Wormleighton (d 1599)
son of
John /Spencer/ , Knt of Wormleighton (d 1586)
son of
William /Spencer/ (d 1532)
son of
John /Spencer/ of Snitterfield and Wormleighton (d 1522)
son of
William /Spencer/ and Elizabeth /Empson/ (died ???)
son of
Henry /Spencer/ of Badby (d 1477/8)

So it doesn't look like there's an obvious connection here.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: possible foul-up on the search facility of the group

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 feb 2007 23:01:02

I am somewhat worried about the functioning of the group search facility.
For instance I have been reasonably active lately in posting materials about the
Burgh family and their ancestors the lords of Mowwdwy/Mawddy/Mouthe, and
about Fulk Corbet, whose daughter Elizabeth married into the Mowddwy family. But
I cannot retrieve any of my posts, nor of the interesting replies thereto,
when I do a google group search.
Are other people having similar problems, please?
MM

Don Stone

Re: possible foul-up on the search facility of the group

Legg inn av Don Stone » 26 feb 2007 00:06:34

Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:
I am somewhat worried about the functioning of the group search facility.
For instance I have been reasonably active lately in posting materials about the
Burgh family and their ancestors the lords of Mowwdwy/Mawddy/Mouthe, and
about Fulk Corbet, whose daughter Elizabeth married into the Mowddwy family. But
I cannot retrieve any of my posts, nor of the interesting replies thereto,
when I do a google group search.
Are other people having similar problems, please?
MM

Michael,

I, too, am unsuccessful in searching for these posts via
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search.

I think it must be a problem at Google's end, because the messages in
this Mawddwy thread were distributed via the newsgroup
soc.genealogy.medieval and are still available on the Verizon news
server that I access (in Philadelphia).

-- Don Stone

Peter Stewart

Re: possible foul-up on the search facility of the group

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 26 feb 2007 02:32:44

<Millerfairfield@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3909.1172440542.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I am somewhat worried about the functioning of the group search facility.
For instance I have been reasonably active lately in posting materials
about the
Burgh family and their ancestors the lords of Mowwdwy/Mawddy/Mouthe, and
about Fulk Corbet, whose daughter Elizabeth married into the Mowddwy
family. But
I cannot retrieve any of my posts, nor of the interesting replies
thereto,
when I do a google group search.
Are other people having similar problems, please?

My search using the same Google Groups facility turned up two threads
initiated by your posts:

http://groups.google.com.au/group/soc.g ... 053ec50d9b

and

http://groups.google.com.au/group/soc.g ... 656c5a01fa

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: "Richard Plantagenet Stonemason"

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 feb 2007 03:21:02

Dear Kerry,
There was no King named Rufus. King William II of England
was nicknamed Rufus on account of his reddish complexion. As to tolerating
King David, the Scots had 2, David I ruled 1124-1153 and David II reigned
1329-1332 and 1333-1371. there would have been a David III if Robert III of Scots`
elder son had survived him He was b 1378 and died 1402 and was styled Duke of
Rothesay. 4 years later his 10 year old younger brother James was captured by
King Henry IV of England while on his way to King Charles VI of France. Robert
III apparently died of a stroke or heart attack on recieving word from the
English King and James I was kept in England until 1424. There were also three
Welah Princes named Daffydd.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine
USA

Gjest

Re: possible foul-up on the search facility of the group

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 feb 2007 16:41:02

Thanks Don Stone and Peter Stewart.
The two links Peter posted both worked fine, but I cannot achieve the same
result using a standard google group search. But, thanks to Don's tip I have
found the threads on the gen-medieval list at rootsweb
MM

John Brandon

Re: possible foul-up on the search facility of the group

Legg inn av John Brandon » 26 feb 2007 16:57:42

I have been using this when I can't find stuff I know is there ...

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/se ... &start=301

Gjest

Re: Temples of New England illuminated by Court of Chivalry

Legg inn av Gjest » 26 feb 2007 18:36:02

In a message dated 2/26/2007 2:05:58 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Elsie_flognoggle@hotmail.com.au writes:

2 Thomas Allen Temple
2 Samuel Landon Temple
2 Mary Ann Temple
2 George Temple


This may be your problem in my opinion.
You need to fill in the lives of these four children.
If the obvious routes to finding out about their parents don't work, you
start working the non-obvious routes.
I found the *maiden* name of a woman in the obit of her great-grandson.
Like that.
Will Johnson
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

Andrew and Inge

RE: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 26 feb 2007 19:06:39

Hi Louise

"Het" can mean "it" or "the". I think the way it is used here, "het sij" is
to say something like "the which" - in other words "who" as in "who in her
life[groof] did many good deeds". I am not sure what groof means here.

The last sentence means just "The grave inscription is made out as follows"
I think.

This is my second language, so others may do better.

Best Regards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----

I am particually interested in the word Childebrecht which I have been
told
could be Chidebrecht ( without the L).

Gisela dochter van Childebrecht Grave van Luxembourg en zuster Vrauw
Ogive voornoemt. Sij light begraven in't klooster van St.Peter's ?? het
???
Sij in haar levensgroof welvarden gedaan heeft. Haar grafschrift is
uitgedrukt als volgt.
Then it is followed by the epitaph as above

Gisela daughter of Childebrecht, Count of Luxemburg, and sister of Madam
Ogive previously mentioned. She is buried in the monastery of St Peters
???
in ???.
She has done in her life many good things (not a literal translation)

Thanks

Louise

Andrew and Inge

RE: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 26 feb 2007 19:06:39

In Flemish, Childe- is probably more related to Hilde-. The name seems
etymologically equivalent to Hildebert, if that is a name!

-----Original Message-----
From: Nathaniel Taylor [mailto:nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, 26 February 2007 4:27 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg


In article <j3n5u2dncei3rodf03koftbtn40gj5iif0@4ax.com>,
Stewart Baldwin <sbaldw@mindspring.com> wrote:

I assume that Childebrecht is a form of the name Gilbert, in turn a
shortened form of Giselbert, which is the name that all medieval
sources give as the name of Otgive's father.

I can't comment on the particular people or the specific sources here,
and don't have a good Germanic name-lexicon or lemmatized name-root
index right to hand, but I am under the impression that 'Child-' and
'Gisel-' are authentic distinct roots.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Gjest

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 feb 2007 17:36:02

In a message dated 2/27/2007 8:25:49 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

What were the grandparents' names (as I don't have access to the
census records)? Was this Houston Hogan's paternal or maternal
grandparents?


Oh sorry, yes the grandparents were John Hogan and Sarah unknown in the 1900
census
They are listed as the head of the house and his wife, with various children
(none of them Otis), all the children are single, and then two grandsons,
one of them is this Houston, b MAR 1895 (as there stated), in Arkansas. I
would suspect he was *probably* born right there in Benton County, but I'm not
sure.

I just checked and you can find them, with Otis, in 1880 Brunswick, Chariton
Co, MO

John is there listed as 35 b KY, Sarah is 32 b OH
Otis 7, Henry 5, Ollie 3, Cordie 1

Will Johnson
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

Gjest

Re: [OT] Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vick

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 feb 2007 17:46:02

In that same county where we find John Hogan, Sarah and Otis in the 1880
census, with oldest child Otis aged 7, we earlier find a John F Hogan, age 25,
born in Kentucky.

He is living with his (assumed by me) parents George W Hogan age 46 b KY and
Sarah A age 46 b VA

The children are listed as Mary A 26 KY, John F 25 KY, Newton 23 KY, Tilton
M 21 IL, Jasper 24 KY [this out of order then is suspect], Stephen A 15 KY,
Rosa B 14 KY, Harriette 7, KY

Also living with them and suspiciously old enough to be a grand or even
great-grandfather is
Edward Owen, 84, b Maryland.

Very nice.
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 27 feb 2007 17:51:01

Interesting.

It looks like Anna had a line from the Lamphere family of Rhode Island
(recently treated in the Register), as well ...

http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... de&id=I038

Gjest

Re: [OT] Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vick

Legg inn av Gjest » 27 feb 2007 17:56:05

Am I good or what. (Don't say what)

It turns out that John F Hogan and his wife "Sarah Ann Dunkle" are already
in OneWorldTree
There they confirm that his parent were George Washington Hogan and Sarah
Ann Owen.

Of course OneWorldTree is frequently (and sometimes grossly) incorrect, but
at least we know we're not blazing a brand-new trail here.
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.




D. Spencer Hines

Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 27 feb 2007 22:39:12

Ah, yes!

Cinaed mac Ailpin, Rex Pictorum...

One of my 34th Great-Grandfathers.

Died: circa 858.

The older form of his name is "Cinaed" rather than Kenneth.

AKA Cinaed mac Ailpin, King of the Scots and Picts.

DSH
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stewart Baldwin" <sbaldw@mindspring.com>

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 12:16 AM

Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: King of Scots?

| On 28 Sep 2001 10:33:59 -0600, Therav3@aol.com wrote:

| > That would depend on what time period you are dealing with.
| > Without having a text or citations to hand, what I think the actual
| > documents would support in a rough time-line would be:

| > 1. Kenneth [Cinaeth] mac Alpin,
| > King of the Scots and Picts ca 800-900

| He is only called that in later works. Contemporary sources refer to
| him (and his immediate successors through 878) as "rex Pictorum" (king
| of the Picts).

| > 2. Malcolm II mac Kenneth,
| > King of Alba ca 1000-1034

| > 3. Malcolm III 'Ceann-mor'
| > mac Duncan,
| > King of Scots [rex Scottorum]* ca 1058---->

| The Irish annals use the title rí Alban (king of Alba) [or
| occasionally ardrí Alban: overking of Alba] until at least the middle
| of the twelfth century. (I'm not sure about later, but I will check
| the Annals of Ulster when I get the chance.) The Anglo-Saxon
| Chronicle uses the title king (or cyng) of Scotland.

| According to the Handbook of British Chronology, the Great Seal of
| Scotland used the title "rex Scottorum" (king of the Scots) from the
| time of Alexander I to James II, and then "rex Scotorum" (omitting a
| letter) from James III. On the other hand, some Scottish kings used
| "rex Scotie" (king of Scotland) in their charters.

| So, if you consider the Latin of the Great Seal to be the determining
| factor, it would be king of the Scots from ca. 1100 on. However, the
| evidence of the vernacular chronicles (of which the Irish were
| speaking a language very close to the Scottish vernacular of the time,
| and the Anglo-Saxons were speaking Old English) certainly gives a
| clear cut case for "king of Scotland" from ca. 900 to ca. 1100, and
| perhaps even a little later.

| Stewart Baldwin

"The Highlander" <micheil@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:u7s8u21o6odmn9mq9qsno8o485ljm4548o@4ax.com...

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:52:28 +0100, "Michael Kuettner"
miksbg@eunet.at> wrote:


"allan connochie" schrieb:

"Michael Kuettner" wrote:

snip
But the European royal families were all interlinked. George I could
trace family back through the Scottish line accurately to Kenneth
MacAlpin the first Scotti to become King of the Picts in the 9thC. His
mother was the daughter of Princess Elizabeth Stuart. Similarly he
could trace the English line back through to the 1st millenium AD.

Could you point me towards some documents from the 9th. century signed
by MacAlpin ? When he was signing as "king of the Picts" ?

Sadly, my knowledge of old documents from the British Isles is rather
poor.

I think you probably know that no such signed document exits. However in
the early Chronicles he was described as a Pictish king and the land he
reigned over was described as Pictavia. For example here is one quote

How early are those chronicles ?
A few hundred years after his reign, I guess.

"He and his next three successors - in turn his brother Donald, and his
two
sons Constantine and Aed - were all called King of Picts when their
deaths were recorded in the near contemporary Annal of
Ulster....................from Scotland A New History by Michael Lynch"

Yabbut, with no contemporary documents or at least coins with "Rex pict"
on them, it looks like this claim is bogus.
Inventing a geneology was a custom in Europe since the times of the Romans
(Vergilius - Aeneas, eg).
Especially royal families were into that hobby: a shaky claim to the realm
or parts of it usually was one of the reasons.

It was seemingly in the reign of Donald II right at the end of the 9thC
when the Pictish kings started to be called "ri Alban" ie King of Alba.


Are there some coin finds with "Rex Pictorum" or "Ri pictorum"
or whatever else the title was ?

My point being :
Without any _contemporary_ evidence of MacAlpin really being the king of
the Picts, it's possible that it was a later "tall tale".
That was standard practice in Europe at that time (and earlier).

Cheers,

Michael Kuettner

It doesn't seem so. All the evidence is that MacAlpin's mother was a
Pictish high-born, and as the Picts maintained a matriarchal society,
they accepted him as their king.

wrecked 'em

Re: Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av wrecked 'em » 27 feb 2007 23:16:53

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:39:12 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ah, yes!

Cinaed mac Ailpin, Rex Pictorum...

One of my 34th Great-Grandfathers.


"Bastards & Homosexuals Seem To Have A Particular Affinity For
Genealogy"

http://tinyurl.com/2xxq48

'Nuff Said

Gjest

Re: Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 feb 2007 00:36:02

Dear Listers,
Cinead (Kenneth) mac Alpin, Rex Pictorum et Scotiae died
858 was the ancestor of every English King from Empress Maud (mother of King
Henry II) on down. two Kings were Rex Pictorum et Scotiae before Cinead,
namely Constantine I mac Fergus (ruled over the Picts about 784 until his death in
820 and used the title Rex Scotiae 819-820 and his brother Aengus II Mac
Fergus 820-834. who made have been Cinead`s great grandfather, a daughter (or
sister) being wife of Eochaid IV Annuine , Rex Scotiae died 819, the father by
her of Alpin who was killed in a battle againest his uncle (or cousin ) Eoganan
mac Aengus between 834 and 838. Cinead acceded the throne of the Picts 16
years before his death according to the various Pictish King lists. (W A Cummins
"The Age of the Picts" p 18) He was King of Scots for about 6 years before
that, so He became King of Picts in about 842 and King of Scots in about 836
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 28 feb 2007 00:41:49

And he has MILLIONS of descendents living today.

DSH

<Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3972.1172618958.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Dear Listers,
Cinead (Kenneth) mac Alpin, Rex Pictorum et Scotiae
died
858 was the ancestor of every English King from Empress Maud (mother of
King
Henry II) on down. two Kings were Rex Pictorum et Scotiae before Cinead,
namely Constantine I mac Fergus (ruled over the Picts about 784 until his
death in
820 and used the title Rex Scotiae 819-820 and his brother Aengus II Mac
Fergus 820-834. who made have been Cinead`s great grandfather, a daughter
(or
sister) being wife of Eochaid IV Annuine , Rex Scotiae died 819, the
father by
her of Alpin who was killed in a battle againest his uncle (or cousin )
Eoganan
mac Aengus between 834 and 838. Cinead acceded the throne of the Picts 16
years before his death according to the various Pictish King lists. (W A
Cummins
"The Age of the Picts" p 18) He was King of Scots for about 6 years before
that, so He became King of Picts in about 842 and King of Scots in about
836
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA


Josiah Jenkins

Re: Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av Josiah Jenkins » 28 feb 2007 00:56:46

Whilst perusing Usenet on Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:16:53 +0100, I read
these words from wrecked 'em <blew.em.to.bits@once.gov> :

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:39:12 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ah, yes!

Cinaed mac Ailpin, Rex Pictorum...

One of my 34th Great-Grandfathers.


"Bastards & Homosexuals Seem To Have A Particular Affinity For
Genealogy"

http://tinyurl.com/2xxq48

'Nuff Said

Except to point out his error. it was more likely,
'Sinead macAilpin, Pix Rectorum'

-- jjj

Gjest

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av Gjest » 28 feb 2007 00:58:17

In the life's little ironies department, it should be noted that
George Washington Hogan and Sarah Ann Owen are the 2Ggrandparents of
Norma Jeane Mortenson(Baker). This would make Anna Nicole Smith and
Marilyn Monroe 3rd cousins twice removed.

Fred Chalfant

On Feb 27, 11:41 am, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In that same county where we find John Hogan, Sarah and Otis in the 1880
census, with oldest child Otis aged 7, we earlier find a John F Hogan, age 25,
born in Kentucky.

He is living with his (assumed by me) parents George W Hogan age 46 b KY and
Sarah A age 46 b VA

The children are listed as Mary A 26 KY, John F 25 KY, Newton 23 KY, Tilton
M 21 IL, Jasper 24 KY [this out of order then is suspect], Stephen A 15 KY,
Rosa B 14 KY, Harriette 7, KY

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 feb 2007 01:02:33

Well, what do you know?!

http://genforum.genealogy.com/hogan/messages/3829.html

So ironic, given Anna Nicole's obsession with Marilyn Monroe, that one
would want to verify every link ...

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 feb 2007 01:26:46

Yet note this statement that the tombstone of Anna's grandfather
Clarence Hogan claims he was born 1922, not 1928, as Wargs and others
have it:

Out of curiosity, I was tracking the line back, but am wondering about
the Hogan lineage you posted. You have the birthdate for Clarence E.
Hogan as 1928 and being born in OK. Yet the birthdate on his tombstone
in Liberty Co. (which lists him as the husband of Helen M.) is given
as 17 Feb. 1922 and that matches a Clarence Hogan born in Harris Co.,
TX per the Texas Vital Records. The 1930 census lists an 8 year old
Clarence in Houston as the son of a Luther and Vivian Hogan.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/p ... :3834.html

John Brandon

Re: Correction to Wargs was Re: Mayflower line for Vickie Ly

Legg inn av John Brandon » 28 feb 2007 01:38:18

Notice that Helen M. Sandlin (wife of this Clarence) was aged 3+ in
the 1930 Census, thus perhaps making her (slightly) more likely to be
the wife of someone born 1922 than 1928 ...

http://www.progenealogists.com/annanico ... s/4b00.jpg

Yet note this statement that the tombstone of Anna's grandfather
Clarence Hogan claims he was born 1922, not 1928, as Wargs and others
have it:

Out of curiosity, I was tracking the line back, but am wondering about
the Hogan lineage you posted. You have the birthdate for Clarence E.
Hogan as 1928 and being born in OK. Yet the birthdate on his tombstone
in Liberty Co. (which lists him as the husband of Helen M.) is given
as 17 Feb. 1922 and that matches a Clarence Hogan born in Harris Co.,
TX per the Texas Vital Records. The 1930 census lists an 8 year old
Clarence in Houston as the son of a Luther and Vivian Hogan.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/p ... ilyn::ho...

Post Post Colonial Boy

Re: Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av Post Post Colonial Boy » 28 feb 2007 06:15:37

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:16:53 +0100, wrecked 'em
<blew.em.to.bits@once.gov> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:39:12 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ah, yes!

Cinaed mac Ailpin, Rex Pictorum...

One of my 34th Great-Grandfathers.


"Bastards & Homosexuals Seem To Have A Particular Affinity For
Genealogy"

http://tinyurl.com/2xxq48

'Nuff Said

That's just stupid...why would a homosexual be particularly interested
in geneaology? Something that they cannot directly contribute to...

PPCB

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Penny TW

Re: Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av Penny TW » 28 feb 2007 06:41:37

And I am another descendant

Penny
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cl3Fh.201$O56.477@eagle.america.net...
And he has MILLIONS of descendents living today.

DSH

Jwc1870@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3972.1172618958.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Dear Listers,
Cinead (Kenneth) mac Alpin, Rex Pictorum et Scotiae
died
858 was the ancestor of every English King from Empress Maud (mother of
King
Henry II) on down. two Kings were Rex Pictorum et Scotiae before Cinead,
namely Constantine I mac Fergus (ruled over the Picts about 784 until
his death in
820 and used the title Rex Scotiae 819-820 and his brother Aengus II Mac
Fergus 820-834. who made have been Cinead`s great grandfather, a daughter
(or
sister) being wife of Eochaid IV Annuine , Rex Scotiae died 819, the
father by
her of Alpin who was killed in a battle againest his uncle (or cousin )
Eoganan
mac Aengus between 834 and 838. Cinead acceded the throne of the Picts
16
years before his death according to the various Pictish King lists. (W A
Cummins
"The Age of the Picts" p 18) He was King of Scots for about 6 years
before
that, so He became King of Picts in about 842 and King of Scots in about
836
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA


wrecked 'em

Re: Kenneth MacAlpin, Rex Pictorum

Legg inn av wrecked 'em » 28 feb 2007 07:53:03

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:15:37 +1300, Post Post Colonial Boy
<republican@email.com> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:16:53 +0100, wrecked 'em
blew.em.to.bits@once.gov> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:39:12 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:

Ah, yes!

Cinaed mac Ailpin, Rex Pictorum...

One of my 34th Great-Grandfathers.


"Bastards & Homosexuals Seem To Have A Particular Affinity For
Genealogy"

http://tinyurl.com/2xxq48

'Nuff Said

That's just stupid...why would a homosexual be particularly interested
in geneaology? Something that they cannot directly contribute to...


Stupid? You said it. Lots of homosexual men and women throughout
history have had offspring. Being homosexual doesn't make a person
infertile.

Think about all those gay kings who nevertheless did their duty and
impregnated their queens to produce heirs.

Andrew and Inge

RE: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 28 feb 2007 07:59:25

That solves one problem I had. So in fact it says she did "great good deeds"
not "many"?

Regards
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Volucris [mailto:volucris@kpnplanet.nl]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 February 2007 11:51 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: re old Dutch word-Giselle of Luxembourg


Louise kindly provided me with a scan of the note (1923) and a scan of
the drawing from Chronicon Flandriae (1460).

This is what I can make of the text on the note.

Interpretation:
"Gisila dochter van Chisebrecht Grave van Luxembourg, en Suster vrauw
Ognie voornoemt.
Sy light begraven int Klooster van St. Pieters aen het welcke Sy in
haer leeven groote weldaeden gedaen heeft.
Haer Grafschrift is uytgedruckt als volgt:
Famina virtutis jacet isto Gisla sepulcro, quie apostolicis rite
patrocinus Delefut (delefsit?), junii duo denas aute Calendas
oftutetunc (officetunc?) ridiens, venerat unde prius."

Translation:
Gisela daughter of Gisebrecht Count of Luxembourg, and Sister Lady
Ognie before mentioned.
She lies buried in the Abbey of St. Petrus to which she in her life
did many good deeds.
Her epitaph reads (expresses) as follows:
The Latin part I leave untranslated. That's no speciality of mine.

This is what the text on the topside of the drawing says:
Dits Ghiselijne sgraven dochter van lutsenburch suster van vrau Ogine
voornoemt.

Svar

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