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Svar
Robert Forrest

-)

Legg inn av Robert Forrest » 13 feb 2007 04:36:17

The spirited SGM exchange of July 2000 on the Bulkeley/Grosvenor/Mainwaring
descent includes some especially incisive comments by Kay Allen. After I
read that some time ago, I reluctantly gave up on Randall Mainwaring +
Margaret Savage as the parents of Margaret Mainwaring (m. Randall Grosvenor
who d. 1522), in spite of Jacobus' Bulkeley Genealogy.

Perhaps since 2000 someone has found a primary source to justify this
connection, at least to see such a source referenced in some other work.
Carl Boyer in his 2001 "Ancestors of Robert Abell" references James
Croston's "County Families of Lancashire and Cheshire," c1888, but I don't
know if Croston drew upon any charters, IPMs, etc. for his information.

Bob Forrest

Leo van de Pas

Re: -)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 13 feb 2007 04:57:21

Dear Robert,

Many thanks for this reminder. In his "600 Immigrants", 2004, Gary Boyd
Roberts on page 442 still has Randall Mainwaring marry Margaret Savage, and
their daughter margaret marry Randall Grosvenor. Does anyone have access to
the later edition and see whether this link is still accepted?

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Forrest" <forrest@whidbey.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>; <WJhonson@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:36 PM
Subject: -)


The spirited SGM exchange of July 2000 on the
Bulkeley/Grosvenor/Mainwaring
descent includes some especially incisive comments by Kay Allen. After I
read that some time ago, I reluctantly gave up on Randall Mainwaring +
Margaret Savage as the parents of Margaret Mainwaring (m. Randall
Grosvenor
who d. 1522), in spite of Jacobus' Bulkeley Genealogy.

Perhaps since 2000 someone has found a primary source to justify this
connection, at least to see such a source referenced in some other work.
Carl Boyer in his 2001 "Ancestors of Robert Abell" references James
Croston's "County Families of Lancashire and Cheshire," c1888, but I don't
know if Croston drew upon any charters, IPMs, etc. for his information.

Bob Forrest


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leo van de Pas

Gary Boyd Roberts to the Bulkeley rescue ? :-)

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 13 feb 2007 05:05:55

On page 442 of his 600 Immigrants, 2004, page 442, the line displayed to
King Henry II still stands, even if Randall Mainwaring and Margaret Savage
are not the parents of Margaret Mainwaring wife of Randall Grosvenor.

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Forrest" <forrest@whidbey.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>; <WJhonson@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:36 PM
Subject: -)


The spirited SGM exchange of July 2000 on the
Bulkeley/Grosvenor/Mainwaring
descent includes some especially incisive comments by Kay Allen. After I
read that some time ago, I reluctantly gave up on Randall Mainwaring +
Margaret Savage as the parents of Margaret Mainwaring (m. Randall
Grosvenor
who d. 1522), in spite of Jacobus' Bulkeley Genealogy.

Perhaps since 2000 someone has found a primary source to justify this
connection, at least to see such a source referenced in some other work.
Carl Boyer in his 2001 "Ancestors of Robert Abell" references James
Croston's "County Families of Lancashire and Cheshire," c1888, but I don't
know if Croston drew upon any charters, IPMs, etc. for his information.

Bob Forrest


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Bulkley Ancestors In Normandy 1050-1250

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 feb 2007 05:16:29

Yes, Kay you are quite right.

There are many questions about this descent.

This "The Name's The Same Game" is littered with landmines.

I think (expect/hope) that the names Bulkley and
Bulkeley are interchangeable.

Surely not.

DSH

"Kay Allen" <allenk@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.3228.1171313989.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Dear Leo,

I have several Bulkeley lines. Here in US, some
Buckleys are really Bulkleys.

Rev. Peter Bulkeley's descent from the Robert of 1218
is iffy.

K

--- Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

Dear Paul,

I think (expect/hope) that the names Bulkley and
Bulkeley are interchangeable.

On my website is a William Bulkeley, of Cheadle,
married to Ellen Griffith,
parents of Rowland born in 1462.
These details come from Gerald Paget's book on the
ancestors and relatives
of HRH the Prince of Wales.

OT. Strangely I even found Bulkley in The
Netherlands, a Robert Ward Bulkley
(presumably from either Great Britain or USA)
who married a Dutch lady, Marie Catharine Bekking,
and they had a daughter
Elisabeth Henrietta born in 1857.

In the USA is a Elizabeth Bulkley married to Rev.
Joseph Emerson, their son
Edward Emerson born in 1670
this comes from Waldo Lincoln's "Genealogy of the
Waldo Family".

In one Bulkeley family the earliest one is Robert
Bulkeley born in 1218,
married Jane Butler. They are ancestors of Royal
Gateway Rev. Peter
Bulkeley, from county Bedford, England, he went to
Massachusetts. This Peter
is a descendant of Llewellyn Fawr, Prince of Wales;
Henry II, King of
England; William the Conqueror, Charlemagne and many
more. A fascinating
descendant (to me at least) is Dr. Samuel Prescott
who finished the ride of
Paul Revere; more are Jay Gould who was filthy rich;
George Herbert Bush,
George Walker Bush; .

In England there was Thomas Bulkeley, 1st Viscount
Bulkeley of Cashel, and
his granddaughter Anne Bulkeley married James
FitzJames, Duke of Berwick, a
famous general and son of James II, King of England.

I am sure there is a lot more to be found.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2007 05:46:02

Monday, 12 February, 2007



Dear Will, Tim, 'Grothenwell', James, & c.,

Concerning the Comyn daughter who was wife of Malise of
Strathearn, I had theorized in 2005 that she was in fact Margaret,
identified as wife of Sir John de Keith (see copy of post below)
who was 2ndly married to Earl Malise. The reasons for same are
given in that post: the wife Emma I suggest was of another
family, and not mother of the next Earl Malise.

Scots Peerage, sub _Comyn, Earl of Buchan_ , states in part,
'Malise, Earl of Strathearn, had a wife Emma, in 1261-1267, whose
surname is unknown '[SP II:256, cites Cal. of Docs., i. 2383, 2451].
This would actually not be a problem with this construction; Sir
John de Keith d. sometime before 1270, so that his widow (Margaret)
would have been "available" sometime after Emma.

This was of course a conjecture; it does have the benefit
of working with a known relationship between Muriel Keith and
Reginald le Cheyne. Any further relevant documentation would
of course be welcome.

Cheers,

John





================================


Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: Therav3@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 03:22:43 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, Dec 4 2005 10:22 pm
Subject: SP Correction: Marjory Comyn, wife (1st) of John de Keith


Sunday, 4 December, 2005

Hello All,


The account in Scots Peerage concerning the family of Keith says
of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270) that he was said to have married
Margaret Comyn, who may have been a daughter of William Comyn, earl
of Buchan [1]. This identification, of the uncertain ("said to
have been") variety, can now be corrected based on the following
dispensation, dated at Fondi on 14 Jan 1378/9::


' Reg Aven 215, 50
To the bishop of Moray. Faculty to dispense Reginald Cheyn,
donzel, and Murielle, damselle, daughter of Sir William de Keth,
of Moray and Aberdeen dioceses, from the impediment to marriage
arising from the third and fourth degrees of consanguinity.
Fondi, 19 Kal. Feb., anno 1.
SRO Vat. Trans., iv, no. 46. ' [2]


Muriel Keith, the future 2nd wife of Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of
Albany (d. 1420), was contracted to marry Reginald le Cheyne, son of
Sir Reginald le Cheyne by his wife (as her first husband), Helen of
Strathearn. While there are notable gaps in the ancestry of Muriel
Keith, she and Reginald le Cheyne do share a descent from the
Comyns. However, this is too distant to require a dispensation if
Muriel was a great-great-great granddaughter of William Comyn, Earl
of Buchan (d. 1233), which would be the case if Margaret Comyn (her
ancestress) was Earl William’s daughter.


Interestingly, the chronology of the generations here, taken
together with the dispensation above, supplies a ready answer:


1. Sir John de Keith, husband of Margaret Comyn (alleged in the
SP Keith account), died ca. 1270.


2. Reginald le Cheyne was a great-grandson of Marjory Comyn,
daughter of Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan (d. 1290), son
of William Comyn mentioned above. Her son was Malise, Earl
of Strathearn from 1312 to his death in 1328 [3], and
grandfather of Reginald.


There is one discernable basis on which the relationship
between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith would have existed: if
Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270), was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage ‘said to have
been’ that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275: as Lindsay wrote,


' The wife of this earl, about 1275, was named Marjory, as we
understand the attesting clause of No. cv., and is stated by
Wyntoun, Book VIII. chap. vi., to have been the second sister
of John Comyn, Earl of Buchan, who negotiated on behalf of
Earl Malise the marriage settlement above mentioned [dated at
London, April 26, 1293 for his daughter Matilda and Robert de
Tony, son of Ralph].' [4]


The relationship between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith
would then be shown as follows:


[NOTE: this chart is conjectural, but deemed probable.]


Alexander Comyn = Elizabeth de Quincy
E of Buchan I
__________________I________________
I III
1) Sir John = Marjory = 2) Malise <siblings>
de Keith I (als I E of Strathearn
d.ca. 1270 I Margaret) I d. 1312
_____________I__ ___I__________________________
I I I I I I
Sir William Bernard Malise Gilbert Robert Maud
de Keith de Keith E of = Robert
d. bef 1293 Strathearn; d. 1328 de Tony
I ______I_______________________
I I I I
Sir Edward Malise Mary Helen
= Isabella de E of Strathearn = 1) Sir Reginald
Synton d. ca. 1343 I le Cheyne
I I I = 2) Sir David
I V I I de Graham
Sir William de I I__________
Keith I I
= Margaret Fraser __________________I_______ V
__I_____________ I I I
III I I I I
<siblings> Muriel + Reginald Mary Mariota
Keith le Cheyne
(= Robert
Stewart,
Duke of Albany)


Reginald le Cheyne likely never married Muriel Keith, and is
known to have died sine prole. Robert Stewart and Muriel Keith
had a dispensation to marry dated 4 May 1380, so Reginald likely
died some time before that date [5], probably before the planned
marriage occurred. The foregoing solution, in addition to
correcting the Keith-Comyn ancestry, will also enhance same with
descents from Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and his wife
Elen/Helen of Galloway (including Magna Carta, Carolingian and
other interesting ancestry).


Hope this is of interest. Should anyone have further
documentation, comment, or criticism, that will be most welcome.


Cheers,


John *


NOTES


[1] SP VI:28-29


[2] Charles Burns, ed., Calendar of Papal Letters to Scotland of
Clement VII of Avignon (1378-1394), p. 21.


[3] SP VIII:247, sub _Ancient Earls of Strathearn_. See also
William Alexander Lindsay, K.C., Windsor Herald; John Dowden,
D.D., LL.D.; and John Maitland Thomson, LL.D., eds., Charters,
Bulls and Other Documents relating to the Abbey of Inchaffray
(Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1908 - Scottish History
Society, 3rd Series, Vol. 56), pp. lxvii-lxix.


[4] Lindsay, ibid., p. lxvi.


[5] Burns, ibid., p. 44.


* John P. Ravilious

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Bulkley Ancestors In Normandy 1050-1250

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 feb 2007 06:09:22

That's an ILLEGITIMATE DESCENT from Henry II -- NOT a LEGITIMATE lone.

DSH

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.3248.1171339084.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear Robert,

Many thanks for this reminder. In his "600 Immigrants", 2004, Gary Boyd
Roberts on page 442 still has Randall Mainwaring marry Margaret Savage,
and their daughter margaret marry Randall Grosvenor. Does anyone have
access to the later edition and see whether this link is still accepted?

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Forrest" <forrest@whidbey.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>; <WJhonson@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:36 PM
Subject: -)

The spirited SGM exchange of July 2000 on the
Bulkeley/Grosvenor/Mainwaring
descent includes some especially incisive comments by Kay Allen. After I
read that some time ago, I reluctantly gave up on Randall Mainwaring +
Margaret Savage as the parents of Margaret Mainwaring (m. Randall
Grosvenor who d. 1522), in spite of Jacobus' Bulkeley Genealogy.

Perhaps since 2000 someone has found a primary source to justify this
connection, at least to see such a source referenced in some other work.
Carl Boyer in his 2001 "Ancestors of Robert Abell" references James
Croston's "County Families of Lancashire and Cheshire," c1888, but I
don't
know if Croston drew upon any charters, IPMs, etc. for his information.

Bob Forrest

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Bulkley Ancestors In Normandy 1050-1250

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 feb 2007 06:52:52

Recte:

That's an ILLEGITIMATE DESCENT from Henry II -- NOT a LEGITIMATE one.

DSH

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.3248.1171339084.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear Robert,

Many thanks for this reminder. In his "600 Immigrants", 2004, Gary Boyd
Roberts on page 442 still has Randall Mainwaring marry Margaret Savage,
and their daughter margaret marry Randall Grosvenor. Does anyone have
access to the later edition and see whether this link is still accepted?

Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Forrest" <forrest@whidbey.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>; <WJhonson@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:36 PM
Subject: -)

The spirited SGM exchange of July 2000 on the
Bulkeley/Grosvenor/Mainwaring
descent includes some especially incisive comments by Kay Allen. After I
read that some time ago, I reluctantly gave up on Randall Mainwaring +
Margaret Savage as the parents of Margaret Mainwaring (m. Randall
Grosvenor who d. 1522), in spite of Jacobus' Bulkeley Genealogy.

Perhaps since 2000 someone has found a primary source to justify this
connection, at least to see such a source referenced in some other work.
Carl Boyer in his 2001 "Ancestors of Robert Abell" references James
Croston's "County Families of Lancashire and Cheshire," c1888, but I
don't
know if Croston drew upon any charters, IPMs, etc. for his information.

Bob Forrest

Gjest

Re: Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2007 07:35:02

In a message dated 2/12/2007 8:50:56 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
jfalk@bigpond.net.au writes:

(1) A birth recorded on the Mormon site for an Adeliza de Frame c.1024
in Bosco, Normandy - dau. of Osulf fil Frame/Frane ( son of Frane)
(Boscum Guillelmi or Bosco Willelmi, later became Bois-Guillaume)


You realize of course that you should dig underneath this entry.
The "Mormon site" is actually composed of many quite different resources.
If you could be specific about which database you are getting this data
from, it would help.
Each of the databases has a SOURCE number and that can be used to find out
more data about the entry.

Will Johnson

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 13 feb 2007 09:41:14

On Feb 13, 4:44 am, Ther...@aol.com wrote:
Monday, 12 February, 2007

Dear Will, Tim, 'Grothenwell', James, & c.,

Concerning the Comyn daughter who was wife of Malise of
Strathearn, I had theorized in 2005 that she was in fact Margaret,
identified as wife of Sir John de Keith (see copy of post below)
who was 2ndly married to Earl Malise. The reasons for same are
given in that post: the wife Emma I suggest was of another
family, and not mother of the next Earl Malise.

Scots Peerage, sub _Comyn, Earl of Buchan_ , states in part,
'Malise, Earl of Strathearn, had a wife Emma, in 1261-1267, whose
surname is unknown '[SP II:256, cites Cal. of Docs., i. 2383, 2451].
This would actually not be a problem with this construction; Sir
John de Keith d. sometime before 1270, so that his widow (Margaret)
would have been "available" sometime after Emma.

This was of course a conjecture; it does have the benefit
of working with a known relationship between Muriel Keith and
Reginald le Cheyne. Any further relevant documentation would
of course be welcome.

Cheers,

John

================================

Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: Ther...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 03:22:43 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Sun, Dec 4 2005 10:22 pm
Subject: SP Correction: Marjory Comyn, wife (1st) of John de Keith

Sunday, 4 December, 2005

Hello All,

The account in Scots Peerage concerning the family of Keith says
of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270) that he was said to have married
Margaret Comyn, who may have been a daughter of William Comyn, earl
of Buchan [1]. This identification, of the uncertain ("said to
have been") variety, can now be corrected based on the following
dispensation, dated at Fondi on 14 Jan 1378/9::

' Reg Aven 215, 50
To the bishop of Moray. Faculty to dispense Reginald Cheyn,
donzel, and Murielle, damselle, daughter of Sir William de Keth,
of Moray and Aberdeen dioceses, from the impediment to marriage
arising from the third and fourth degrees of consanguinity.
Fondi, 19 Kal. Feb., anno 1.
SRO Vat. Trans., iv, no. 46. ' [2]

Muriel Keith, the future 2nd wife of Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of
Albany (d. 1420), was contracted to marry Reginald le Cheyne, son of
Sir Reginald le Cheyne by his wife (as her first husband), Helen of
Strathearn. While there are notable gaps in the ancestry of Muriel
Keith, she and Reginald le Cheyne do share a descent from the
Comyns. However, this is too distant to require a dispensation if
Muriel was a great-great-great granddaughter of William Comyn, Earl
of Buchan (d. 1233), which would be the case if Margaret Comyn (her
ancestress) was Earl William's daughter.

Interestingly, the chronology of the generations here, taken
together with the dispensation above, supplies a ready answer:

1. Sir John de Keith, husband of Margaret Comyn (alleged in the
SP Keith account), died ca. 1270.

2. Reginald le Cheyne was a great-grandson of Marjory Comyn,
daughter of Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan (d. 1290), son
of William Comyn mentioned above. Her son was Malise, Earl
of Strathearn from 1312 to his death in 1328 [3], and
grandfather of Reginald.

There is one discernable basis on which the relationship
between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith would have existed: if
Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270), was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage 'said to have
been' that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275: as Lindsay wrote,

' The wife of this earl, about 1275, was named Marjory, as we
understand the attesting clause of No. cv., and is stated by
Wyntoun, Book VIII. chap. vi., to have been the second sister
of John Comyn, Earl of Buchan, who negotiated on behalf of
Earl Malise the marriage settlement above mentioned [dated at
London, April 26, 1293 for his daughter Matilda and Robert de
Tony, son of Ralph].' [4]

The relationship between Reginald le Cheyne and Muriel Keith
would then be shown as follows:

[NOTE: this chart is conjectural, but deemed probable.]

Alexander Comyn = Elizabeth de Quincy
E of Buchan I
__________________I________________
I III
1) Sir John = Marjory = 2) Malise <siblings
de Keith I (als I E of Strathearn
d.ca. 1270 I Margaret) I d. 1312
_____________I__ ___I__________________________
I I I I I I
Sir William Bernard Malise Gilbert Robert Maud
de Keith de Keith E of = Robert
d. bef 1293 Strathearn; d. 1328 de Tony
I ______I_______________________
I I I I
Sir Edward Malise Mary Helen
= Isabella de E of Strathearn = 1) Sir Reginald
Synton d. ca. 1343 I le Cheyne
I I I = 2) Sir David
I V I I de Graham
Sir William de I I__________
Keith I I
= Margaret Fraser __________________I_______ V
__I_____________ I I I
III I I I I
siblings> Muriel + Reginald Mary Mariota
Keith le Cheyne
(= Robert
Stewart,
Duke of Albany)

Reginald le Cheyne likely never married Muriel Keith, and is
known to have died sine prole. Robert Stewart and Muriel Keith
had a dispensation to marry dated 4 May 1380, so Reginald likely
died some time before that date [5], probably before the planned
marriage occurred. The foregoing solution, in addition to
correcting the Keith-Comyn ancestry, will also enhance same with
descents from Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and his wife
Elen/Helen of Galloway (including Magna Carta, Carolingian and
other interesting ancestry).

Hope this is of interest. Should anyone have further
documentation, comment, or criticism, that will be most welcome.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] SP VI:28-29

[2] Charles Burns, ed., Calendar of Papal Letters to Scotland of
Clement VII of Avignon (1378-1394), p. 21.

[3] SP VIII:247, sub _Ancient Earls of Strathearn_. See also
William Alexander Lindsay, K.C., Windsor Herald; John Dowden,
D.D., LL.D.; and John Maitland Thomson, LL.D., eds., Charters,
Bulls and Other Documents relating to the Abbey of Inchaffray
(Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, 1908 - Scottish History
Society, 3rd Series, Vol. 56), pp. lxvii-lxix.

[4] Lindsay, ibid., p. lxvi.

[5] Burns, ibid., p. 44.

* John P. Ravilious

Hi John,

Thank you for your input, very much welcomed.

John P << if Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270),
was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage 'said to have
been' that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275 >>

Do you believe that "Marjory" / "Margaret" was also married to Patrick
Earl of Dunbar?

What are your views on the "Agnes/Egidia" names? As CP says as quoted
by Tim

<< "He m., in or before 1375, Agnes, said to be 2nd da. of Alexander
(Comyn), 6th Earl of Buchan (S), by Elizabeth (or Isabel), 2nd da. of
and coh. of Roger (de Quincy), Earl of Winchester." >>

Best regards,

Grothenwell

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Bulkley Ancestors In Normandy 1050-1250

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 13 feb 2007 10:31:42

You really want that NORMAN CONNECTION, don't you?

You can't even SPELL -- NORMANDY -- I corrected your Subject Line, wherein
you had "Normany". [sic]

Amusingly Illiterate...

You sound like some rabid 19th Century social-climber who thinks a NORMAN
Genealogical Connection is the ticket to success and being accepted into
some sort of Social Elite.

Hilarious!

Wake Up!

YOU must PROVE the alleged NORMAN Connection.

You must trace BACK from yourself, step by step -- generation by generation
as far as you can go.

Instead, you try to pick a Family Name, which is identical/similar to yours
and tell us that it is a NORMAN name, rather than an ENGLISH, Anglo-Saxon
name -- traceable to the Latin as well.

Continuing your fantasies, you try to tell us, in the face of all evidence
to the contrary, which you won't listen to, because it is allegedly not
responsive to your question, that your ancestors come from Normandy -- so
you can eventually make pretense that one of your ancestors was PROBABLY a
"Companion of The Conqueror", William The Conqueror, ["or came over shortly
thereafter"] say within two hundred years or so <G>, although you are unable
to PROVE it.

The Scots generally are not too fond of William The Conqueror -- although
there are exceptions. However they are PARTICULARLY vitriolic about his 4th
Great-Grandson, Edward I [b. 1239 - d. 1307], King of England and _Malleus
Scotorum _.

You WHINE about the Excellent Genealogical Advice you have been given, as
follows:

...responses which unfortunately do not address my request.
Do you people have trouble reading? -- Paul Bulkley

Repeatedly, you ignore the evidence that your family name, Bulkley [with
various spellings] is a TOPONYM that correlates to the name of a CHESHIRE
VILLAGE.

FOOLISH in the Extreme!

You would have been ripe pickings for some charlatanistic, fraudulent
19th-century genealogical con-man.

But I cannot deny that it is FUN to WATCH you, while you make an even BIGGER
FOOL of yourself, as each day passes, and dig a deeper hole for yourself.

When you find yourself in a deep, dark, dank, foetid, foul-smelling hole of
your own making...

Stop Digging!

Further, it is NOT up to "the librarian" -- who is a very talented man and a
Quite Competent Genealogist -- to DISPROVE a NORMAN connection for you.

SO, get your head screwed on right and:

Read, Mark, Learn And Inwardly Digest what you have been TOLD by
Experienced, Competent, Well-Educated Genealogists here.

The Burden of Proof for a NORMAN GENEALOGICAL DESCENT, which is indeed a
laughable pursuit in your case, is on YOU -- NOT on "the librarian" -- or
anyone else here.

So, get cracking on working BACKWARDS from yourself, proving each
Genealogical Link as you GO -- NOT trying to "hook up" with some alleged
NORMAN ANCESTOR, whom you think is YOURS -- and STOP WHINING & KVETCHING.

FARBLONDJET!

John 5:14

Vide infra.

'Nuff Said.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Deus Vult

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

Exitus Acta Probat

"paul bulkley" <designeconomic@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3177.1171227568.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Generous Snipping Of Arrant, Mindless & Superfluous Balderdash.

Thankyou [sic] for the many responses which unfortunately do
not address my request. Do you people have trouble
reading?

There is a littany [sic] of negative comments, the generous
offer of more! And the usual banal remarks of the
lunatic fringe.

Others have attached importance to the Cheshire
Bulkley family name and that of the similar [sic] named
village. None of that has any connection to my
request.

Then the librarian who also cannot read, who attaches
importance to the Cheshire meaning of the family name,
rejects firmly the possibility of a Norman connection
without offering a single cent of evidence to support
his contention.

Anyhow to the root of the matter. Is anyone capable of
offering construction [sic] advise [sic] in connection with my
request?

Sincerely Yours,

Paul Bulkley

John P. Ravilious

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 13 feb 2007 12:31:27

Dear Grothenwell,

Comments interspersed below.




On Feb 13, 3:41 am, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi John,

Thank you for your input, very much welcomed.

John P << if Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270),
was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage 'said to have
been' that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275

Do you believe that "Marjory" / "Margaret" was also married to Patrick
Earl of Dunbar?


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I see no reason at present to presume this was the same
individual, marrying thrice. If in fact Marjory was the eldest
daughter of Earl Alexander Comyn, she was likely born in the 1240's,
and married to Patrick, Earl of Dunbar (d. 10 Oct 1308) in the 1260's
or shortly thereafter. Her eldest son Patrick was born likely in the
early 1270's [see prior discussion on the subject; Andrew MacEwen
would place his birth ca. 1275, or before - not after]. This should
be the same period when her apparently younger sister Margaret was
married a 2nd time, to Malise, Earl of Strathearn.

See SP II:256, sub _Comyn, Earl of Buchan_ [cites ' Wyntoun's
Cronykil, ed. 1873, ii. 310.], citing George Dunbar's letter of 1400
naming her Marjorie - there is apparently no other evidence naming
her.



What are your views on the "Agnes/Egidia" names? As CP says as quoted
by Tim

"He m., in or before 1375, Agnes, said to be 2nd da. of Alexander
(Comyn), 6th Earl of Buchan (S), by Elizabeth (or Isabel), 2nd da. of
and coh. of Roger (de Quincy), Earl of Winchester."


<<<<<<<<<

I assume you meant to say "1275" above, not 1375.

Agnes was the last wife of this Earl Malise. The account of the
Earls of Strathearn (named Malise anyway) in DNB includes the
following:


' In 1310-12 Earl Malise, his wife, Lady Agnes, and his son Malise
were in the English pay' [DNB LV:36, cites Bain, Cal. Docs. Scotland
II, nos. 192, 208, 299]


Assuming that there is not a misunderstanding as to the Earl
Malise in this generation, being married to an Emma in the 1260's and
a daughter of Alexander Comyn (Margaret by my account) 2ndly, say 1270
and after, this Agnes would then be his 3rd wife.


Cheers,

John



Best regards,

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 13 feb 2007 14:56:59

On Feb 13, 11:31 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Grothenwell,

Comments interspersed below.

On Feb 13, 3:41 am, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:







Hi John,

Thank you for your input, very much welcomed.

John P << if Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270),
was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage 'said to have
been' that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275

Do you believe that "Marjory" / "Margaret" was also married to Patrick
Earl of Dunbar?



I see no reason at present to presume this was the same
individual, marrying thrice. If in fact Marjory was the eldest
daughter of Earl Alexander Comyn, she was likely born in the 1240's,
and married to Patrick, Earl of Dunbar (d. 10 Oct 1308) in the 1260's
or shortly thereafter. Her eldest son Patrick was born likely in the
early 1270's [see prior discussion on the subject; Andrew MacEwen
would place his birth ca. 1275, or before - not after]. This should
be the same period when her apparently younger sister Margaret was
married a 2nd time, to Malise, Earl of Strathearn.

See SP II:256, sub _Comyn, Earl of Buchan_ [cites ' Wyntoun's
Cronykil, ed. 1873, ii. 310.], citing George Dunbar's letter of 1400
naming her Marjorie - there is apparently no other evidence naming
her.



What are your views on the "Agnes/Egidia" names? As CP says as quoted
by Tim

"He m., in or before 1375, Agnes, said to be 2nd da. of Alexander
(Comyn), 6th Earl of Buchan (S), by Elizabeth (or Isabel), 2nd da. of
and coh. of Roger (de Quincy), Earl of Winchester."



I assume you meant to say "1275" above, not 1375.

Agnes was the last wife of this Earl Malise. The account of the
Earls of Strathearn (named Malise anyway) in DNB includes the
following:

' In 1310-12 Earl Malise, his wife, Lady Agnes, and his son Malise
were in the English pay' [DNB LV:36, cites Bain, Cal. Docs. Scotland
II, nos. 192, 208, 299]

Assuming that there is not a misunderstanding as to the Earl
Malise in this generation, being married to an Emma in the 1260's and
a daughter of Alexander Comyn (Margaret by my account) 2ndly, say 1270
and after, this Agnes would then be his 3rd wife.

Cheers,

John





Best regards,

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi John,

That has made it clearer for me to understand, thank you.

Perhaps Tim would be kind enough to recheck the CP to see if 1375 was
a typo.

If Agnes was indeed Malise's third wife married in 1275, after eldest
son Patrick's probable birth, then Margaret Comyn would be his mother.
In your view what is the likelyhood that Agnes was a Comyn? Was the
marrying of another sister a common occurance?

Ta very much,

Grothenwell

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 13 feb 2007 15:11:54

On Feb 13, 1:56 pm, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:31 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:





Dear Grothenwell,

Comments interspersed below.

On Feb 13, 3:41 am, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi John,

Thank you for your input, very much welcomed.

John P << if Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270),
was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage 'said to have
been' that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275

Do you believe that "Marjory" / "Margaret" was also married to Patrick
Earl of Dunbar?



I see no reason at present to presume this was the same
individual, marrying thrice. If in fact Marjory was the eldest
daughter of Earl Alexander Comyn, she was likely born in the 1240's,
and married to Patrick, Earl of Dunbar (d. 10 Oct 1308) in the 1260's
or shortly thereafter. Her eldest son Patrick was born likely in the
early 1270's [see prior discussion on the subject; Andrew MacEwen
would place his birth ca. 1275, or before - not after]. This should
be the same period when her apparently younger sister Margaret was
married a 2nd time, to Malise, Earl of Strathearn.

See SP II:256, sub _Comyn, Earl of Buchan_ [cites ' Wyntoun's
Cronykil, ed. 1873, ii. 310.], citing George Dunbar's letter of 1400
naming her Marjorie - there is apparently no other evidence naming
her.

What are your views on the "Agnes/Egidia" names? As CP says as quoted
by Tim

"He m., in or before 1375, Agnes, said to be 2nd da. of Alexander
(Comyn), 6th Earl of Buchan (S), by Elizabeth (or Isabel), 2nd da. of
and coh. of Roger (de Quincy), Earl of Winchester."



I assume you meant to say "1275" above, not 1375.

Agnes was the last wife of this Earl Malise. The account of the
Earls of Strathearn (named Malise anyway) in DNB includes the
following:

' In 1310-12 Earl Malise, his wife, Lady Agnes, and his son Malise
were in the English pay' [DNB LV:36, cites Bain, Cal. Docs. Scotland
II, nos. 192, 208, 299]

Assuming that there is not a misunderstanding as to the Earl
Malise in this generation, being married to an Emma in the 1260's and
a daughter of Alexander Comyn (Margaret by my account) 2ndly, say 1270
and after, this Agnes would then be his 3rd wife.

Cheers,

John

Best regards,

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi John,

That has made it clearer for me to understand, thank you.

Perhaps Tim would be kind enough to recheck the CP to see if 1375 was
a typo.

If Agnes was indeed Malise's third wife married in 1275, after eldest
son Patrick's probable birth, then Margaret Comyn would be his mother.
In your view what is the likelyhood that Agnes was a Comyn? Was the
marrying of another sister a common occurance?

Ta very much,

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry too Earl(y) for me, getting my Dunbars & Strathearns
mixed.Noticed my mistake after posting.

Hopefully I've got it correct now, please correct me if I am wrong,

Marjorie Comyn was Patrick of Dunbar's mother

Emma (Unknown) married Malise of Strathearn
Margaret Comyn was 2nd wife, mother of Malise?
Agnes (Comyn?) was 3rd wife

Thanks again,

Grothenwell

jonathan kirton

Re: Westmorland High Sheriffs

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 13 feb 2007 17:06:59

Further to my email yesterday, I have just realized that I
wrongly

located one of the references to Gilbert de Kirketon at "c.
1357",

which should have read as "c. 1257".

The reference: "History of Westmorland & Cumberland" by
Nicholson &

Burns, (1777), Volume 1, page 33, states:- "......Gilbert de
Kirketon then

sheriff of Westmorland (that is, undersheriff to the
then Robert de

Vetripont ),........"

The date of this event has to be after 1246, but before
1264, so we

can narrow it down to 1257, in which year the only
possible Robert

de Vetripont did indeed become High Sheriff.

However, I am suspicious of this identification of Gilbert,
because by

the year 1257 Gilbert de Kirketon of Screveton would have
been at

least 72 years old. Thoroton shows him as an adult in
1207, holding

the gift of the Screveton Parish Church, so he could not
have been

born any later than about 1185.

Perhaps Nicholson & Burn made an error and inserted
Gilbert's name

instead of the name of his son, John de Kirketon ??

Sincerely,

Jonathan Kirton

John Higgins

Re: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria maternal

Legg inn av John Higgins » 13 feb 2007 18:47:13

One place to start is http://www.genealogics.com - search for Gräfin Ferdinande
Henriette zu Stolberg-Gedern.

The Stolberg family is covered in detail in vol. 17 of Detlev Schwennicke's
Europäische Stammtafeln.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:10 AM
Subject: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria maternal
lineancestor)


Does anyone have any further information on Ferdinanada von Stolberg, born
1699 in Saxe Coburg?

That is all I can find on her online. She married Count George August
von
Erbach-Schonberg, b 1691 in Saxe Coburg.

She is Queen Victoria's straight-line maternal great-great grandmother.

Who was she?

I vaguely recall the last time I traced Queen Victoria's roots that a
commoner, maybe a member of the middle class, married into her lines
somewhere. I'm not sure that is a woman named von Stolberg, though. An
aristocratic line by that name keeps popping up in royal genealogies.

Is this the farthest back known ancestor of Queen Victoria's mtDNA?

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com



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Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2007 19:11:03

On 1st Feb Louise Staley posted
<snip>
The main Eardisley Castle Baskerville seems to be;
<1. Sir John = Elizabeth Tuchet
<2. Sir James = Sybil Devereux
<3. Sir Walter = Anna verch Morgan
<4. Sir James = Elizabeth Breynton
<5. Humphrey = Eleanor Gwillim
<snip>
I can confirm this line. There are IPMs for Sir James (E 150/408/1, dated
1499),
who was made Knight of the Bath at Henry VII's coronation, and for Sir Walter
(1508), made KB at Prince Arthur's marriage. The second Sir James in Louise's
list left a Will PROB 11/31, proved in 1546, and so did his grandson John,
son of Humphrey (PROB 11/94, proved in 1599).
Furthermore there are Wills for two of the older sons of the second Sir
James,
namely James, sheriff of Hereford in 34 Hen VIII (PROB 11/56, proved in 1573)
and Sir Thomas Baskerville of Brinsop (PROB 11/54, proved 1572), neither of
which
I have so far studied.
The reason why the last named was described as being "of Brinsop" was that he
was enjoying that estate as husband of Thomas Dansey's widow Eleanor,
daughter
and co-heiress of Richard Abington of Brockhampton.
I have not yet traced a Will or an IPM for John's father Humphrey.
Although there is a Will of a Humphrey Baskerville, Alderman of London
(PROB 11/47, proved in 1564), I see no reason at all to suppose that the
alderman was any close relation of Sir James (2). By his time, there were
already numerous branches of the family living in Shropshire, Wiltshire and
parts of Wales, as well as several in Herefordshire, for example the
Baskervilles of Netherwood, to one of whom this testator left a gold ring.
Sir James' second son John, also a sheriff of Hereford, has an IPM
(C142/181/116,
dated 1577/8). It was in his line, according to Duncumb's History of
Herefordshire,
that the family seat of Eardisley descended, as follows:-
!. The said John, who married Elizabeth Hergest
2. Humphrey, who married Elizabeth, d. of John Scudamore of Holme Lacy
3. John, d. 8th Jan 1588, who married Anna Southwell
(his younger brother Walter Baskerville has left a Will in PROB 11/57,
proved in 1575)
4. Sir Humphrey, married to Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Thomas Coningsby.
Sir Humphrey died 3rd April 1647. His monument is in Eardisley church,
according to Duncumb.
The Northampton RO, Cokayne (Ruston) collection, ref.3265, shows this Sir
Humphrey in secure possession of his "great park" at Eardisley in December
1615.
5. Thomas, married to Frances, d. of Francis Pember, by whom he had issue
including a son John.
In a later post Louise says:-
<snip>
<John Baskerville, son of Humphrey and Eleanor, was the
<eventual heir of Eardisley Castle and the pedigrees go into
<detail about how the youngest son of Sir James Baskerville
<and Elizabeth Breynton inherited.
<snip>
I think, Louise, that you are wrong on this, although I do agree with your
critique of the N&Q article to which you refer. The John Baskerville who
ultimately came to inherit the (by then ruined) castle of Eardisley in
the middle 1600s seems to me to have been the above-named John, grandson
of Sir Humphrey and Elizabeth Coningsby, and not the John proposed in
N&Q, nor yet the John son of Humphrey and Eleanor verch John ap Gwilym,
who had died some 60 years previously, as shown by his IPM (PROB 11/94,
proved in 1599).
The latter John was, as Duncumb shows, the progenitor of a long line of
Baskervilles of Aberedw, none of whom inherited Eardisley.
I am afraid I can throw no light on the ancestry of Humphrey Baskerville
the alderman, whose Will is preserved at PROB 11/47, proved in 1564. But,
whoever he was, no son of his stood to, or did, inherit Eardisley- and nor
did any son of the other Humphrey and his wife Eleanor verch John ap Gwilym.
It might be interesting to study the rubbings of the Baskerville Brasses in
Eardisley Church Vestry floor, which are held at the Herefordshire RO,
catalogue AF61, ref. E29/34.
There is an amazing wealth of documents preserved in the National Archives
[hint- search for bask*], which show that after the heroics of Sir John at
Agincourt succeeding generations of Baskervilles flexed their muscles in the
lawcourts rather than on the field of battle. Also the archives include
numerous IPMs and Wills which I did not need to look at for the purposes
of this note, but which would I think deserve an extended study.

Thanks for raising this interesting topic, Louise
MM

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 13 feb 2007 19:17:17

In message of 13 Feb, "grothenwell" <jbrechin@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps Tim would be kind enough to recheck the CP to see if 1375 was
a typo.

The CP indeed says 1275.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

John Higgins

Re: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria maternal

Legg inn av John Higgins » 13 feb 2007 22:24:59

Correction: address below should be ".org", not ".com".

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria
maternallineancestor)


One place to start is http://www.genealogics.com - search for Gräfin Ferdinande
Henriette zu Stolberg-Gedern.

The Stolberg family is covered in detail in vol. 17 of Detlev Schwennicke's
Europäische Stammtafeln.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:10 AM
Subject: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria maternal
lineancestor)


Does anyone have any further information on Ferdinanada von Stolberg, born
1699 in Saxe Coburg?

That is all I can find on her online. She married Count George August
von
Erbach-Schonberg, b 1691 in Saxe Coburg.

She is Queen Victoria's straight-line maternal great-great grandmother.

Who was she?

I vaguely recall the last time I traced Queen Victoria's roots that a
commoner, maybe a member of the middle class, married into her lines
somewhere. I'm not sure that is a woman named von Stolberg, though. An
aristocratic line by that name keeps popping up in royal genealogies.

Is this the farthest back known ancestor of Queen Victoria's mtDNA?

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com



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12/29/2006 8:22 AM


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Ian Fettes

Re: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria maternal

Legg inn av Ian Fettes » 13 feb 2007 22:28:20

Hello Dora,

The full maternal and paternal lines recorded in Genealogics are visible
from the following url:
http://www.genealogics.org/lines.php?pe ... erations=4

That needs to be on one line when pasted into your browser.

Ian Fettes


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria
maternallineancestor)


One place to start is http://www.genealogics.com - search for Gräfin Ferdinande
Henriette zu Stolberg-Gedern.

The Stolberg family is covered in detail in vol. 17 of Detlev
Schwennicke's
Europäische Stammtafeln.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@yahoo.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:10 AM
Subject: Who was Ferdinanda von Stolberg (Queen Victoria maternal
lineancestor)


Does anyone have any further information on Ferdinanada von Stolberg,
born
1699 in Saxe Coburg?

That is all I can find on her online. She married Count George August
von
Erbach-Schonberg, b 1691 in Saxe Coburg.

She is Queen Victoria's straight-line maternal great-great grandmother.

Who was she?

I vaguely recall the last time I traced Queen Victoria's roots that a
commoner, maybe a member of the middle class, married into her lines
somewhere. I'm not sure that is a woman named von Stolberg, though.
An
aristocratic line by that name keeps popping up in royal genealogies.

Is this the farthest back known ancestor of Queen Victoria's mtDNA?

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX
tiggernut24@yahoo.com



--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.15.29/608 - Release Date:
12/29/2006 8:22 AM


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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Genie

Re: Osulf Fil Frame / Frane - son of Frane (Lord Belvoir)

Legg inn av Genie » 13 feb 2007 22:36:19

On Feb 13, 5:32 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/12/2007 8:50:56 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

j...@bigpond.net.au writes:

(1) A birth recorded on the Mormon site for an Adeliza de Frame c.1024
in Bosco, Normandy - dau. of Osulf fil Frame/Frane ( son of Frane)
(Boscum Guillelmi or Bosco Willelmi, later became Bois-Guillaume)

You realize of course that you should dig underneath this entry.
The "Mormon site" is actually composed of many quite different resources.
If you could be specific about which database you are getting this data
from, it would help.
Each of the databases has a SOURCE number and that can be used to find out
more data about the entry.

Will Johnson

NOTE:

I appear to be having a problem with my replies not appearing in the
digest.
Again, this is a second effort, apologies if it appears twice!



Hello Will

Thank you for the reply.

You realize of course that you should dig underneath this entry.
The "Mormon site" is actually composed of many quite different resources.
If you could be specific about which database you are getting this data
from, it would help.
Each of the databases has a SOURCE number and that can be used to find out
more data about the entry

Yes, I have ordered film from an LDS FHC previously, but I have not
ordered these as I am still trying to understand the implications of
this early use of the name Frame. There were actually two records for
Adeliza de Frame on the IGI - Continental Europe.

Adeliza de Frame [No parent mentioned]
Birth: About 1024 Of Bosco, , Normandie Province, France
Source Information:
Film Number: 170424
Page Number: 795
Reference number: 29846
Vol. W2 26 April 1941
Baptisms for the dead, 1888-1944; heir indexes 1888-1955, Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Manti Temple.


Adeliza de Frame
Birth: About 1024 Of Bosco, , Normandie Province, France
Parents:
Father: Osulf fil Frame
Marriages:
Spouse: Unavailable
Source Information:
Film Number: 170475
Page Number: 763
Reference number: 20750
Endowments for the dead, 1888-1970; name indexes
1888-1906; heir indexes, 1906-1959, 1970-1972; baptisms for the dead,
1943-1970, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Manti Temple.

Matt Tompkins has given me two other early appearances of the Frame
name that I had not heard before:

Reaney and Wilson give two early occurrences: John filius Frame in 1250 Devon and
Geoffrey Frame in 1196 East Anglia.

Will, my goal is to try to determine if the use of the Frame surname
had anything to do with Osulf fil Frame. I have no ambition to try to
prove a line of descent. That would be impossible. However, if there
is a chance that Osulf fil Frame influenced the introduction of the
Frame surname, then I would like to learn a little more about him.
Thanks once again for your advice.

Best regards
Julie Frame Falk

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2007 22:37:02

In a message dated 2/12/07 8:44:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< Scots Peerage, sub _Comyn, Earl of Buchan_ , states in part,
'Malise, Earl of Strathearn, had a wife Emma, in 1261-1267, whose
surname is unknown '[SP II:256, cites Cal. of Docs., i. 2383, 2451].
This would actually not be a problem with this construction; Sir
John de Keith d. sometime before 1270, so that his widow (Margaret)
would have been "available" sometime after Emma. >>

John I want to challenge you on the name "Margaret".
Although Lindsay may call her Margaret (I don't know), the underlying
question of course is going to be whether or not Lindsay made a goof.

I agree with you on the idea that since SP states that Malise had a wife Emma
1261/7 that this would not be a problem if we simply allow Malise two have
two wives, first Emma, second Miss Comyn.

SP also states that "the only wife assigned to the Earl in any records is
named Agnes". I'm not ready to accept that Agnes was a form of Emma any more
than Agnes was a form of Margaret. So we're left simmering over a pot of three
wives, which isn't very tasty.

If Malise was indeed married by 1261-7, that pushes back what I know about
him by a few years (which isn't much)

I do find it a little disconcerting that Miss Comyn appears to be so much
younger than her purported first spouse John de Keith, Marshall of Scotland.
It's enough of a gap to make me first consider whether John's wife might not be a
sister to Alexander Comyn, instead of a daughter. which I think is what SP
guesses and you hypothecize is off by a generation.

Perhaps John de Keith's document may clarify his active time and a more
discrete interval in which he could have married and had children. Right now I
have a spread of 20 to 25 years which isn't too helpful for this particular
question.

Will

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2007 22:40:02

In a message dated 2/13/07 12:45:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:

<< What are your views on the "Agnes/Egidia" names? As CP says as quoted
by Tim >>

I'm skeptical that this is correct. Egidia and Gill should be synonyms, but
not Agnes. Gill married Patrick, the 8th Earl of Dunbar "47 or more at his
father's death" who died 10 Oct 1308. Gill is called "the eldest" and certainly
Patrick the next Earl of Dunbar was born by 1271 at the latest, which helps
to set a boundary on Gill's own birthrange

If we allow that the second daughter Miss Comyn, married firstly to John de
Keith, Marshall of Scotland and thus became mother to at least *three* children
before his death "abt 1270" then Gill must herself have been born by 1252 at
the latest if we allow her to be "the eldest"

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2007 22:49:04

In a message dated 2/13/07 6:17:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:

<< Emma (Unknown) married Malise of Strathearn
Margaret Comyn was 2nd wife, mother of Malise?
Agnes (Comyn?) was 3rd wife >>

Provided you add a question mark to the name "Margaret"
Until such time as we have a document actually cited using this name.
Will

Gjest

Re: Morley and Hastings lines for the Reymeses and Brewsters

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2007 23:01:03

In a message dated 2/12/07 4:23:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING02@aol.com writes:

<< left Elizabeth Hastings to be married to his younger son Francis
Browne (no doubt his son William Browne was, by this date, already married
to Anne
Hastings - all he was left was a feather bed), however the marriage did not
take place. Francis m Anne dau. of Sir William Goring of Burton, co. Sussex
Knt and relict of Sir George Lyne Kt. (als Sir George Delalynde) whilst
Anne
Hastings married Hamon le Strange of Hunstanton, Norfolk (their son's
second
marriage was to the daughter of Sir William Paston, also her m2) >>

You mean of course that Elizabeth Hastings married Hamon le Strange.

Their son Nicholas le Strange married first Mary Bell in 1582 having at least
one child
Hamon Le Strange 1583-1654. The marriage to Anne Paston is cited as 1591. I
don't have details on her father, but I *do* have an additional disconnected
Anne Paston bur 2 Aug 1637 who was the wife of Anthony Cope, 1st Bart of
Hanwell.

This last Anne *also* is cited with a father "William Paston of Paston". She
married Anthony Cope 7 Apr 1606. This couldn't be the same Anne could it?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLEs

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2007 23:57:02

In a message dated 2/13/07 12:31:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

<< Humphrey the alderman left a will, he only mentioned some of his
children by name but his sons Humphrey (aged 15) and Richard (aged 5)
are listed as executors, his supposed heir John Baskerville from the
supposed marriage to Eleanor Gwillim does not get a guernsey. >>

Wouldn't it be a bit odd to list an infant as an executor?

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLEs

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 00:22:02

Stirnet makes a glancing hit on the line

http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... ngsby2.htm

Louise Staley

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 14 feb 2007 00:35:13

Comments interspersed,

Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:
On 1st Feb Louise Staley posted
snip
The main Eardisley Castle Baskerville seems to be;
1. Sir John = Elizabeth Tuchet
2. Sir James = Sybil Devereux
3. Sir Walter = Anna verch Morgan
4. Sir James = Elizabeth Breynton
5. Humphrey = Eleanor Gwillim
snip
I can confirm this line. There are IPMs for Sir James (E 150/408/1, dated
1499),
who was made Knight of the Bath at Henry VII's coronation, and for Sir Walter
(1508), made KB at Prince Arthur's marriage. The second Sir James in Louise's
list left a Will PROB 11/31, proved in 1546, and so did his grandson John,
son of Humphrey (PROB 11/94, proved in 1599).
Furthermore there are Wills for two of the older sons of the second Sir
James,
namely James, sheriff of Hereford in 34 Hen VIII (PROB 11/56, proved in 1573)
and Sir Thomas Baskerville of Brinsop (PROB 11/54, proved 1572), neither of
which
I have so far studied.
The reason why the last named was described as being "of Brinsop" was that he
was enjoying that estate as husband of Thomas Dansey's widow Eleanor,
daughter
and co-heiress of Richard Abington of Brockhampton.
I have not yet traced a Will or an IPM for John's father Humphrey.
Although there is a Will of a Humphrey Baskerville, Alderman of London
(PROB 11/47, proved in 1564),

As you may have seen from my later post, I have now had this will
transcribed and it is the foundation for my rejection of any close link
between Humphrey the alderman and the Eardisley line. As an aside, and
somewhat off-topic other information suggests that one of Humphrey the
alderman's brothers was the ancestor of the most famous Baskerville of
them all, John, inventor of the Baskerville font.

I see no reason at all to suppose that the
alderman was any close relation of Sir James (2). By his time, there were
already numerous branches of the family living in Shropshire, Wiltshire and
parts of Wales, as well as several in Herefordshire, for example the
Baskervilles of Netherwood, to one of whom this testator left a gold ring.

Although it appears Philip of Nethwerwood, father of the legatee Thomas,
was the third son of Sir James Baskerville and Sybil Devereux.

Sir James' second son John, also a sheriff of Hereford, has an IPM
(C142/181/116,
dated 1577/8). It was in his line, according to Duncumb's History of
Herefordshire,
that the family seat of Eardisley descended, as follows:-
!. The said John, who married Elizabeth Hergest
2. Humphrey, who married Elizabeth, d. of John Scudamore of Holme Lacy
3. John, d. 8th Jan 1588, who married Anna Southwell
(his younger brother Walter Baskerville has left a Will in PROB 11/57,
proved in 1575)
4. Sir Humphrey, married to Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Thomas Coningsby.
Sir Humphrey died 3rd April 1647. His monument is in Eardisley church,
according to Duncumb.
The Northampton RO, Cokayne (Ruston) collection, ref.3265, shows this Sir
Humphrey in secure possession of his "great park" at Eardisley in December
1615.
5. Thomas, married to Frances, d. of Francis Pember, by whom he had issue
including a son John.
In a later post Louise says:-
snip
John Baskerville, son of Humphrey and Eleanor, was the
eventual heir of Eardisley Castle and the pedigrees go into
detail about how the youngest son of Sir James Baskerville
and Elizabeth Breynton inherited.
snip
I think, Louise, that you are wrong on this, although I do agree with your
critique of the N&Q article to which you refer.

I completely agree with you Michael. My information on the branches of
the Baskervilles, apart from Humphrey the alderman, comes mainly from
Burkes and once again this source has proved its inadequacy.

The John Baskerville who
ultimately came to inherit the (by then ruined) castle of Eardisley in
the middle 1600s seems to me to have been the above-named John, grandson
of Sir Humphrey and Elizabeth Coningsby, and not the John proposed in
N&Q, nor yet the John son of Humphrey and Eleanor verch John ap Gwilym,
who had died some 60 years previously, as shown by his IPM (PROB 11/94,
proved in 1599).
The latter John was, as Duncumb shows, the progenitor of a long line of
Baskervilles of Aberedw, none of whom inherited Eardisley.
I am afraid I can throw no light on the ancestry of Humphrey Baskerville
the alderman, whose Will is preserved at PROB 11/47, proved in 1564. But,
whoever he was, no son of his stood to, or did, inherit Eardisley- and nor
did any son of the other Humphrey and his wife Eleanor verch John ap Gwilym.
It might be interesting to study the rubbings of the Baskerville Brasses in
Eardisley Church Vestry floor, which are held at the Herefordshire RO,
catalogue AF61, ref. E29/34.

Yes, thank-you for alerting me to this option.

There is an amazing wealth of documents preserved in the National Archives
[hint- search for bask*], which show that after the heroics of Sir John at
Agincourt succeeding generations of Baskervilles flexed their muscles in the
lawcourts rather than on the field of battle.

Yes, this is another reason I became convinced Humphrey the alderman was
not intimately connected with the main line. He was extremely wealthy
for the times, while the Eardisley line were in the throes of their
decline and arguing over the spoils of defeat through the courts. I
think there would have been more legal interaction between them if they
were closely related.

Also the archives include
numerous IPMs and Wills which I did not need to look at for the purposes
of this note, but which would I think deserve an extended study.

Yes, I have searched on that, and in the PRO but not really found

anything I think related to Humphrey the alderman

Thanks for raising this interesting topic, Louise

I am grateful for your participation and extensive documentation based
on primary sources. As far as I can see nobody has published on this
family in recent times despite there being various descendants claiming
to belong to it.

Louise

> MM

Louise Staley

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLEs

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 14 feb 2007 00:50:57

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/13/07 12:31:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

Humphrey the alderman left a will, he only mentioned some of his
children by name but his sons Humphrey (aged 15) and Richard (aged 5)
are listed as executors, his supposed heir John Baskerville from the
supposed marriage to Eleanor Gwillim does not get a guernsey.

Wouldn't it be a bit odd to list an infant as an executor?

Yes I thought so too.

Humphrey farmed his children out to various people then made his
under-age children executors but their guardians the overseers of the
will. I don't know enough about the law to explain why this structure
would be preferred. I also can't explain why only four of his children
were named executors when he had seven living children and another on
the way.

Louise

"Richard Hollyman mercer shall have the bringing up and keeping of Anne
and Martha my daughters.
Friend Thomas Heaton mercer shall have keeping etc of Humfry Baskerfelde
my son.
William Leon[ar]de mercer shall have keeping etc of Angell my daughter.
Cousin John Jackson fownder shall have finding and bringing up of
Richard my son.
Son in law Harry Hungate mercer shall have finding and bringing up of
Sara my daughter.
Wife to have finding and virtuous bringing up of "the childe she nowe
goeth withall".
Executors:
Humfry Baskerfelde and Richard Baskerfelde my sons and Angell and Sara
Baskerfelde my daughters.
Overseers:
Friends Harry Hungate, Richard Hollyman, Thomas Heaton, mercers, John
Jackson fownder and William Lenarde mercer, citizens of London.

Gjest

Re: Morley and Hastings lines for the Reymeses and Brewsters

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 01:58:02

In a message dated 13/02/2007 22:01:09 GMT Standard Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:

In a message dated 2/12/07 4:23:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING02@aol.com writes:




<< left Elizabeth Hastings to be married to his younger son Francis
Browne (no doubt his son William Browne was, by this date, already married
to Anne
Hastings - all he was left was a feather bed), however the marriage did not
take place. Francis m Anne dau. of Sir William Goring of Burton, co. Sussex
Knt and relict of Sir George Lyne Kt. (als Sir George Delalynde) whilst
Anne
Hastings married Hamon le Strange of Hunstanton, Norfolk (their son's
second
marriage was to the daughter of Sir William Paston, also her m2) >>

You mean of course that Elizabeth Hastings married Hamon le Strange.


<<<<<



Ooops, yes


Their son Nicholas le Strange married first Mary Bell in 1582 having at

least
one child
Hamon Le Strange 1583-1654. The marriage to Anne Paston is cited as 1591.
I
don't have details on her father, but I *do* have an additional disconnected
Anne Paston bur 2 Aug 1637 who was the wife of Anthony Cope, 1st Bart of
Hanwell.

This last Anne *also* is cited with a father "William Paston of Paston".
She
married Anthony Cope 7 Apr 1606. This couldn't be the same Anne could it?
<<<<<<<<


Yes, Cope was her 3rd husband.

The father William Paston was descended from the family famous for their
Paston Letters. He was also the ancestor of the Earls of Yarmouth

Adrian


Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Re: Westmorland High Sheriffs

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 02:17:57

Dear Jonathan,
Thank your for posting this list. There appears to be a distinction between Westmoreland and other shires in England in that the sheriff of Westmoreland was an appointment of the crown.
Robert of Vieuxpont was made hereditary sheriff of Westmoreland by John, and his descendants continued to hold the office until the death of Earl Thanet without issue in 1849, when hereditary sherriffdoms were abolished by statute.." The dictionary of English History. Low, et al. p. 941
http://books.google.com/
"The Shrievalty of Westmoreland remained hereditary in the family of the Earl of Thanet until 1850 (13 and 14 Vic. V. 30) This office had, in past times, descended to and been executed by a woman. Anne (Clifford), Countess of Pembroke, had the office of hereditary Sheriff of Westmoreland, and exercised it is person. At the assizes of Appleby she sat with the judges on the bench."....just as her ancestor Isabella de Veteripont had.
English Local Government From the Reolutions to the Municipal Act: The Parish and the County by Sidney and Beatrice Webb. Longmans, Green & Co., London, 1906. p. 288.
Therefore, do we consider the names other that the descendants of Robert as under sheriffs? By 1287 Idonea and Isabella de V., shared the shrievalty of Westmoreland. I believe (must check) that Robert Vipont of the Ivo line held the offfice in 1355. (Ragg)
Pat

From: jonathan kirton <jonathankirton@sympatico.ca
Date: 2007/02/12 Mon PM 06:57:03 EST
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Westmorland High Sheriffs

I have now dug out the list which I obtained from the
Cumbria Record office back
in October, 2002, taken from "Westmorland Shrievalty".

It clearly has quite a number of variations from the
Wikipedia list as last amended
21:16, 7 Feb., 2007.

I will repeat the C.R.O. list, with the notes and
references from the other sources,
already mentioned, in (brackets) thus, together with a
number of sources which I
have found, and will add some comments.

1129 Richard filius Gerardi de Appleby.

1174 Ranulf de Glanville.

(1176 Ranulf de Glanville. (D MUS 2/10/24 (c.
1189) (Scope & Content))

1177 Ranulf de Glanville.

1189 Osbert de Longo Campo. (Osbert D MUS 2/10/24)

1192 Hugh Bardulf.

1195 Hugh Bardulf.

1199 Geoffrey filius Petri. (prob. 1199-1201 Geoffrey
FitzPeter & Roger BelloCampo)
(History & Antiquities, Co. of Westm'r'l'd & Cumb. V. 1)
(Roger BelloCampo was prob. the undersheriff.)

1200 William de Stuteville. (until 1202, with undersheriff
Philip Escrope, (c. 1208)
(D MUS 2/10/67)

1203 - 28 Robert de Vetripont, mar. Idonea, dau. & heiress
of John Buily.
(Baron; & Hereditary High Sheriff; died prob. Jan.,
1228)

1228 Hugo de Burgo. [until the coming of age of John,
the heir of Robert de
Vetripont.] (On 1
Feb., 1228 (ref.: CPR 12/13 Henry III,Vol.2,
p.176-7, 296) Gilbert de Kirketon of
Screveton, Notts. was
sent up to Appleby as co-constable / co-
custodian of the
following castles: Appleby, Braham (modern Brougham),
Burgh, Boues (modern Bowes, now in co.Durham) and
Malvestang (just west of Swaledale in NR Yorks; since
about 1300 known as Pendragon Castle). Kirketon was
evidently a lawyer, and was at Appleby by 4
Aug., 1228
when he was appointed as a commissioner of justice.
The writer suspects that Kirketon was also serving as
undersheriff to Hugo de Burgo at this time.
D/WYB/2/32,
(entry not dated, but estimated as "early 13th.
century".))

(1230 Alexander Bachucton Sheriff of Westmorland D/WYB/2/115
(not dated but
c. 1230. Prob. also an undersheriff to Hugo de
Burgo.))

1234-42 John de Vetripont, who married Sibilla, dau. of
William Ferrers, Earl of
Derby. (John, son & heir of Robert, now assumed his
hereditary position as High Sheriff, and it is
suspected
John de Kirketon, of Screveton, Notts.,
younger son of
Gilbert de Kirketon, served as his undersheriff.)
(However
in 1241 John de Vetripont died (ref. CPR) & on 4
Aug.,
1241 from Worcester, CPR 25 Henry III, Vol.3, p.
255, mem.
5, states: "Appointment, during pleasure, of
Gilbert de
Kirketon and Henry de Souleby to the custody of the
castles of Appleby and Brough under Stainmore (Burgo)
and all the lands late of John de Veteri Ponte; and
mandate to the tenants to be intendant to them."

1241 John or Gilbert de Kirketon. (Ref.: DDHV/70/1.
It is almost certain that
it was Gilbert de Kirketon, the father, who was
interim
High Sheriff, and that his younger son, John de
Kirketon
continued on as undersheriff. This seems to have
lasted
until c.1243. Gilbert was still in Appleby
as late as 1247,
Ref.: Nicholson & Burns, (1777) "History of Westmorland &
Cumberland", page 323: "Testibus Magistris
Domino
Gilberto de Kirketon actum Lundon (sic)." but
subsequently
is believed to have returned to his home in
Notts., but
leaving his son John to stay on in Westmorland.)

1246 Ralph de Nottingham.

(c.1250 Roger de Stokes. Ref.: D/WYB/2/35 mid 13th. century.)

1256 Robert de Steynton.

1257 Robert de Vetripont, married Isabella Fitz-Peter,
sister & afterwards co-heir
of Richard, son of John Fitz-Geoffrey.

1261 Richard de Musgrave.

1275 Michael de Arcla.

1277 Isabella Clifford - relict of Roger Clifford & dau.
of Robert de Vetripont.

(c.1283 Sir Thomas de Mussegrave. Ref.: D/WYB/2/38. Not
dated, before 1283)

(1283-9 Sir Richard de Medburn. Ref.: D/WYB/2/42. Not dated.
Prob. High Sheriff)

1284 Richard de Medburn. (1284 Michael de Hartcla Ref.: D/
WYB/116. He was
probably the undersheriff.)

(1288 Robert de Morville. Ref.: D/WYB/2/43. Probably also
an undersheriff)

(c.1290 William de Steynton. Ref.: D MUS 2/10/88. Another
undersheriff ?)

1293 Thomas de Hellebec.

(1294 Thomas de Hellebec. WD D/MD 40)

1295 Ranulf de Mannerby

1297 Nicholas de Cliburne

1298 Robert de Clifford & Idonea de Leyburn (dau. of
Robert de Vetripont).
(Gilbert(2) de Kirketon of Appleby served as
undersheriff to Robert de Clifford.
Ref.: Calendar of Charter Rolls, Vol.2, 1257-1300, p.453.)

1308 Robert de Clifford, son & heir of Roger de
Clifford, & Isabella, [ dau. of
Robert de Vetripont].

(1312 Robert de Morwyll. Ref.: D HC 2/11/6. Probably also
an undersheriff .)

1314 Henry de Warthecop [interim High Sheriff during the
minority of Roger
de Clifford, heir to Robert de Clifford].
(1317 Henry de Warthecopp. Ref.: D/WYB/2/117)

1320 Roger de Clifford [attainted for treason].
(1320 Hugh de Louther. Ref.: SC 8/151/7531) (Interim replacement)

1322 Walter de Stirkeland.

1322 Hugh de Louthre (1320-1322 Hugh de Louther Ref.: Sc
8/151/7531;
served from Oct., 1320 until Feb., 1322, & also
from Dec., 1322 until Jul., 1323)

1323 Patrick de Colewenne

1324-5 Henry de Threlkeld. Ref.: D MUS/2/10/31. [Prob.
Interim High Sheriff.]
(Henry de Threlkeld. Ref.: C 49/45/14).

1327 Robert de Clifford [married Isabel, dau of Maurice,
Lord Berkeley]

(1329 Thomas de Waryekop. Ref.: D/WYB/2/123. Probably as
undersheriff.)

(1330 Nicholas de Grendon. Ref.: SC 8/33/1650.
---------------------------------.)

(1333 Robert de Sandford. Ref.: D MUS 2/10/32.
---------------------------------.)

(1342 Thomas de Musgrave. Ref.: D/WYB/2/124.
---------------------------------.)

1344 John de Wateby, John de Morland, & Thomas de Warthecop.
[All Feoffees of the shrievalty under royal licence.]

(1345 Robert de Clifford. IPM (he evidently died in that
year.))

1345 William de Langwathby.

1345 Ralph de Nevill.

1351 Thomas de Bello Campo [Beauchamp]

1354-89 Roger de Clifford [married Maud de Beauchamp].(SC
8/130/6466)

(1355 Hugh de Boure. Ref.: C 131/9/17. Evidently another
undersheriff.)

(c.1357 Another Gilbert de Kirketon (great-grandson of the
first Gilbert ?) is
shown as undersheriff of Westmorland. Ref.: Nicholson &
Burns, (1777)
"The History of Westmorland & Cumberland", page 33.)

(1360 Henry de Threlkeld. Ref.: D/WYB/2/53. Evidently now
undersheriff,
although he had previously been interim High Sheriff
in 1324.)

(1380 William de Lancaster. Ref.: WD RY/BOX 92/53. (Must be
undersheriff.))

1389 Thomas Clifford. [married Elizabeth, dau. of Thomas, Lord
Roos.]

(1389 Walter de Stirkeland. Ref.: SC 8/222/11077. (Must be
undersheriff.))

1392 Anne, Queen of England. [wife of Richard II.]

1392 Elizabeth, Lady Clifford. (1402 Ref.: Sc 8/119/5945)
Until 1411.

(1403-1406 Thomas Warcop. Ref.: SC 8/23/1108. (Must be
undersheriff.))

(1406-1408 William de Thornburgh. Ref.: SC 8/23/1108.
(undersheriff.))

1411-22 John, Lord Clifford. [Married Elizabeth, dau. of
Lord Henry Percy.]

(1417-1418 Thomas Warcop. Ref.: SC 8/23/1108. (undersheriff.))

1422- 1438 Elizabeth, Lady Clifford, relict of John, Lord
Clifford.

1438 -55 Thomas, Lord Clifford. [Married Johanna, dau. of
Thomas, Lord Dacre.]

1457 William Lancaster, Esq..

1462 John Parr, for life; knighted 1472.

1475 Sir William Parr, Knt..

1483 Sir Richard Radclyffe, Knt..

1485 Roger Bellingham, Esq.,

1485 Richard Clifford, second son of John, Lord Clifford.

1486-1526 Henry, Lord Clifford. [Married Anne, dau. of Sir
John St. John.]
(1512 Ref.: C
131/97/16.)

1526 Henry, 11th. Lord Clifford, 1st. Earl of Cumberland.



I will leave it to others to decide what to add to
Wikipedia !

Hope this is of interest,

Jonathan Kirton











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Matthew Connolly

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Matthew Connolly » 14 feb 2007 10:18:38

On Feb 14, 12:35 am, Louise Staley <cara...@bigpond.com> wrote:

As far as I can see nobody has published on this
family in recent times despite there being various descendants claiming
to belong to it.

Dear Louise (and Michael, and anyone else with an interest),

I hadn't mentioned it as it wasn't relevant to your original question,
but if interested in the Baskervilles in general, and if you don't
already know it, there is an article on the earlier members of the
family by Herefordshire historian Bruce Coplestone-Crow. It is 'The
Baskervilles of Herefordshire, 1086-1300', in the Transactions of the
Woolhope Naturalists' Field Club XLIII (1979), pp18-39. The author
warns that some of it is partly conjectural, but it is well worth
seeing; and should be superior to Burke's. The only problem is that it
only goes down to 1300!

-Matthew

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 11:51:02

Wednesday, 14 February, 2007


Dear Will,

As to the name Margaret, this was not taken from William
Alexander Lindsay's work, unless someone also of that name was
the author of the Scots Peerage article on the Keiths. The first
note in my post concerning Margaret Comyn was to the Keith article
in Scots Peerage, where it was stated that Sir John de Keith's
wife was ' Margaret Comyn who may have been dau. of William earl
of Buchan ' [SP VI:28-29, sub Keith, Earl Marischal]. I don't
have notes as to the source cited there: this is of course
assuming that there was actually cited as to that statement,
which may not be the case.

As to Sir John de Keith's career, the only other item in
my notes concerns an agreement which should probably be dated
'ca. 14 Aug 1244', when the Treaty of Newcastle between Alexander
II of Scots and Henry III of England resolved certain disputes.
Here we find that ' John de Keht ' was one of the jurors
[comprised of: Earl of Strathern, Robert de Brus, William, son
of Earl Patric, William Giffard, Roger de Mubray, John de Keht,
Nes Fraser, Laurence Fraser, Robert de Mubray, David de Graham,
William, son of the Earl, Adam de Gordun, Alan de Sayncleir,
Thomas de Normanville, Walran his brother, John de Hirdmanistone,
David Olifard, William de Baillol, Simon Lokkard, and others]
in support of Patrick, Earl of Dunbar in his oath, together with
Walter Comyn, Earl of Menteith, before King Henry III of
England [1].

While I have this in my notes re: this particular Sir John
de Keith, for all we actually know, this could have been his
father, first cousin, or another. I would not currently hang
any chronological hat on this: 'Our' Sir John de Keith may have
been born ca. 1244, married Margaret Comyn [if a daughter of
Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan and not his sister, possibly
born ca. 1244] and expired before 1270 leaving minor sons, and
a marriageable widow yet to bear more children.

Cheers,

John *




NOTES

[1] Bain, Cal. Docs. Scot. I:551-3, dated 'Circa 1244' :

' 2671. The form of oath taken by the Earls Patric, and
Walter Cumin, viz., that they were neither of counsel or aid,
when on their part any people were sent to attack or lay waste
the K. of England's land in Ireland, or elsewhere, to the K.'s
dishonour; nor ever received any of his enemies, especially
William de Mariscis and his son.'


* John P. Ravilious

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 14 feb 2007 12:06:49

In message of 14 Feb, Therav3@aol.com wrote:

Wednesday, 14 February, 2007


Dear Will,

As to the name Margaret, this was not taken from William
Alexander Lindsay's work, unless someone also of that name was
the author of the Scots Peerage article on the Keiths. The first
note in my post concerning Margaret Comyn was to the Keith article
in Scots Peerage, where it was stated that Sir John de Keith's
wife was ' Margaret Comyn who may have been dau. of William earl
of Buchan ' [SP VI:28-29, sub Keith, Earl Marischal]. I don't
have notes as to the source cited there: this is of course
assuming that there was actually cited as to that statement,
which may not be the case.

SP has no notes on its source for this and the full statement is:

"He is said to have married Margaret Comyn, who may have been daughter
of William, Earl of Buchan"

and I gather that 'He is said ...' means that it is only to be found in
later pedigrees with no documentary evidence of the times of the people
concerned.

There is no correction in Vol IX, Addenda et Corrigenda.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

John P. Ravilious

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 14 feb 2007 12:13:39

Dear 'Grothenwell',

In a prior message you asked, " If Agnes was indeed Malise's
third wife married in 1275, after eldest son Patrick's probable birth,
then Margaret Comyn would be his mother. In your view what is the
likelyhood that Agnes was a Comyn? Was the marrying of another sister
a common occurance? "

The possibility that Agnes was a Comyn, of another branch of the
family, certainly exists, but I find no basis to enter a conjecture
concerning her parentage other than that she was not a sibling of
Margaret Comyn - this again on the premise that Margaret Comyn was
dau. of Earl Alexander of Buchan, and 2nd wife of Earl Malise of
Strathearn.

Agnes could not have been a sister, or half-sister, of Margaret
Comyn unless there was a very unusual Papal resolution (a la Henry
VIII and Catherine of Aragon) and an unconsummated marriage between
Margaret and Earl Malise. Under the current operating theory,
following Margaret Comyn's death, Earl Malise and any sibling of
Margaret would have stood in the 1st degree of affinity, and we would
most likely have heard of an excommunication in the matter.

Cheers,

John




On Feb 13, 8:56 am, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:31 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:



Dear Grothenwell,

Comments interspersed below.

On Feb 13, 3:41 am, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi John,

Thank you for your input, very much welcomed.

John P << if Margaret Comyn, wife of Sir John de Keith (d. ca. 1270),
was
identical to Marjory Comyn, and married 2ndly to Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (d. 1312). This would mean the parentage 'said to have
been' that of Margaret, wife of Sir John de Keith, was off one
generation: she would not have been the daughter of William Comyn,
Earl of Buchan, but rather of his son Alexander. There is no
evidence that Earl Malise and Marjory Comyn were married much
before 1275

Do you believe that "Marjory" / "Margaret" was also married to Patrick
Earl of Dunbar?



I see no reason at present to presume this was the same
individual, marrying thrice. If in fact Marjory was the eldest
daughter of Earl Alexander Comyn, she was likely born in the 1240's,
and married to Patrick, Earl of Dunbar (d. 10 Oct 1308) in the 1260's
or shortly thereafter. Her eldest son Patrick was born likely in the
early 1270's [see prior discussion on the subject; Andrew MacEwen
would place his birth ca. 1275, or before - not after]. This should
be the same period when her apparently younger sister Margaret was
married a 2nd time, to Malise, Earl of Strathearn.

See SP II:256, sub _Comyn, Earl of Buchan_ [cites ' Wyntoun's
Cronykil, ed. 1873, ii. 310.], citing George Dunbar's letter of 1400
naming her Marjorie - there is apparently no other evidence naming
her.

What are your views on the "Agnes/Egidia" names? As CP says as quoted
by Tim

"He m., in or before 1375, Agnes, said to be 2nd da. of Alexander
(Comyn), 6th Earl of Buchan (S), by Elizabeth (or Isabel), 2nd da. of
and coh. of Roger (de Quincy), Earl of Winchester."



I assume you meant to say "1275" above, not 1375.

Agnes was the last wife of this Earl Malise. The account of the
Earls of Strathearn (named Malise anyway) in DNB includes the
following:

' In 1310-12 Earl Malise, his wife, Lady Agnes, and his son Malise
were in the English pay' [DNB LV:36, cites Bain, Cal. Docs. Scotland
II, nos. 192, 208, 299]

Assuming that there is not a misunderstanding as to the Earl
Malise in this generation, being married to an Emma in the 1260's and
a daughter of Alexander Comyn (Margaret by my account) 2ndly, say 1270
and after, this Agnes would then be his 3rd wife.

Cheers,

John

Best regards,

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi John,

That has made it clearer for me to understand, thank you.

Perhaps Tim would be kind enough to recheck the CP to see if 1375 was
a typo.

If Agnes was indeed Malise's third wife married in 1275, after eldest
son Patrick's probable birth, then Margaret Comyn would be his mother.
In your view what is the likelyhood that Agnes was a Comyn? Was the
marrying of another sister a common occurance?

Ta very much,

Grothenwell

John P. Ravilious

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 14 feb 2007 12:27:33

Dear Tim,

Thanks for those lookups.

The consanguinity between Muriel Keith and Reginald le Cheyne -
known to have been a great-grandson of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d.
1312) - is the sole evidence (if indirect) that these two individuals
had at least one ancestor/ancestress in common. That Malise of
Strathearn had a Comyn wife (name yet in dispute) and that Sir John de
Keith was 'said to have' married a Margaret Comyn is the one link I
have found that would meet this test, but only if

(A) Ms. Comyn (allegedly Margaret) married both Earl Malise
and Sir John de Keith, and

(B) That she was a daughter of Earl Alexander, not of his father
Earl William.

Cheers,

John



On Feb 14, 6:06 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 14 Feb, Ther...@aol.com wrote:

Wednesday, 14 February, 2007

Dear Will,

As to the name Margaret, this was not taken from William
Alexander Lindsay's work, unless someone also of that name was
the author of the Scots Peerage article on the Keiths. The first
note in my post concerning Margaret Comyn was to the Keith article
in Scots Peerage, where it was stated that Sir John de Keith's
wife was ' Margaret Comyn who may have been dau. of William earl
of Buchan ' [SP VI:28-29, sub Keith, Earl Marischal]. I don't
have notes as to the source cited there: this is of course
assuming that there was actually cited as to that statement,
which may not be the case.

SP has no notes on its source for this and the full statement is:

"He is said to have married Margaret Comyn, who may have been daughter
of William, Earl of Buchan"

and I gather that 'He is said ...' means that it is only to be found in
later pedigrees with no documentary evidence of the times of the people
concerned.

There is no correction in Vol IX, Addenda et Corrigenda.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/

gerard.bieber

Re: Hohenstaufen Origins

Legg inn av gerard.bieber » 14 feb 2007 12:45:23

The Hildegarde(s) story.
Mes supositions actuelles:
1. Foulques III de Nerra (Angers/+1040) eut pour 3e épouse
Hildegarde (1) de Sundgau (lien avec Louis de Mousson).
d'où Geoffroy Martel (Vendôme/Angers)
et Ermengarde-Blanche (°° Robert de Bourgogne).

2. Il est possible que cette Hildegarde (1) se remaria avec
Otto II de Schweinfuth, duc de Souabe (+1047)?
Pas de descendant masculin, mais probablement Hildegarde (2).

3. C'est cette Hildegarde (2) qui aurait épousé Frédéric de Bueren et lui
apporta de nombreux biens propres notament en Sundgau-Alsace
(ancien apanage des comtes de Mousson liés aux comtes d'Eguisheim,
famille de Léon IX).
De ce mariage= Frédéric, Otto, Louis, Walter, Conrad et Adelaïde.

4. Hildegarde (2) reste connue pour avoir favorisé la construction de
Ste Foy (Fides) à Sélestat (Alsace-Sundgau) v.1090 où sont venus
s'établir des moines de l'abbaye de Conques.

What do you think about?

Peter Stewart

Re: Hohenstaufen Origins

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 feb 2007 13:04:50

"gerard.bieber" <gerard.bieber@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:45d2f657$0$5081$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
The Hildegarde(s) story.
Mes supositions actuelles:
1. Foulques III de Nerra (Angers/+1040) eut pour 3e épouse
Hildegarde (1) de Sundgau (lien avec Louis de Mousson).
d'où Geoffroy Martel (Vendôme/Angers)
et Ermengarde-Blanche (°° Robert de Bourgogne).

2. Il est possible que cette Hildegarde (1) se remaria avec
Otto II de Schweinfuth, duc de Souabe (+1047)?
Pas de descendant masculin, mais probablement Hildegarde (2).

3. C'est cette Hildegarde (2) qui aurait épousé Frédéric de Bueren et lui
apporta de nombreux biens propres notament en Sundgau-Alsace
(ancien apanage des comtes de Mousson liés aux comtes d'Eguisheim,
famille de Léon IX).
De ce mariage= Frédéric, Otto, Louis, Walter, Conrad et Adelaïde.

4. Hildegarde (2) reste connue pour avoir favorisé la construction de
Ste Foy (Fides) à Sélestat (Alsace-Sundgau) v.1090 où sont venus
s'établir des moines de l'abbaye de Conques.

What do you think about?

It is flatly contradicted by the evidence.

Foulques Nerra's second wife Hildegard, mother of Geoffroy Martel and
Ermengarde Blanche, died without remarrying, in Jerusalem, still titled as
countess of Anjou in various obituaries and chronicles. She was clearly
never duchess of Swabia.

Otto II, duke of Swabia was not count of Schweinfurt (you have him confused
with Otto III) but rather count palatine by the Rhine. These two were from
completely different familes - Otto II was Lotharingian, Otto III Bavarian.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 feb 2007 13:14:53

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3231.1171316231.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 2/12/07 3:06:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
gerard.bieber@wanadoo.fr writes:

Manipulateur, Hughes de Provence fut sans doute à l'origine de la
rumeur
qui vers 930 donnait de l'emphase à ce que l'origine d'Anne, la mère de
Charles
Constantin fut entaché de bâtardise. Hughes de Provence attendait alors
le
soutien de la flotte grecque contre les sarasins du Fraisinet.


Do we actually know that Charles' mother's name was Anne? Or is this
speculation based on trying to make his mother be the same person as Anne
"of
Byzantium", illegitimate daughter of Leo VI "The Wise", Byzantine Emperor
died 912

We have no source for the name of Charles Constantine's mother.

I think Peter has stated that we know Leo had a daughter Anne, and we also
know that Charles' father was Louis "The Blind", Holy Roman Emperor died
928.
But we don't know is that Anne and Louis knocked boots, or that even
should
this have occurred, that the result was Charles.

There is no direct evidence that they were married at all - we have no
certainty that she married at all, just a letter from a Greek bishop
indicating that a marriage was either projected or perhaps took place
between Anna and an unnamed, unfortunate Frankish prince who was a cousin to
Berta of Tuscany. This may or may not have been Louis III.

If it was him, the marriage almost certainly did not take place, since apart
from the lack of any direct evidence whatsoever, Liutprand of Cremona makes
no mention of this - and it would have been of compelling interest to him:
he was an inveterate gossip, he had been an ambassador to Constantinople,
and devoted several chapters to the misadventures of Louis in Italy, with no
hint of a Greek imperial bride or of a son & heir who was grandson to Leo
VI.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of hismot

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 feb 2007 13:23:40

<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3230.1171315822.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 2/11/07 5:55:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

These are not minor IFs - there is no proof that Anna was actually
married
to Louis in the first place, then there are chronological difficulties,

Are you referring here by "Chronological difficulties" to the idea that
Anna
would have been somewhere between 12 and 17 when she became a mother to
Charles ("Carolus") ?

Yes.

I only have a note that she was born between 886 and 889, and that Charles
was born between 901 and 903. Do you have something which pins either of
these
two people down more than that?

No - we have Richer's description of him as "grandevus" (very aged) in 951,
but this is of little value. He was count of Vienne before Christmas 927,
and making a request of his father by June 924 (regarding, amongst other
serfs, a woman named Constance - a name supoposedly so rare that its later
occurence has been taken to indicate his daughter). He was evidently born
before ca 910 but the precision of 901/03 is just a forced fix to allow for
Anna to be his mother and his father's wife.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 15:51:02

Dear Douglas and other interested list members,
I
found a couple of interesting items recents. The first from a a PDF chart of the
de Mortaigne/ van Peteghem family shows Marie de Mortaigne as married to
Baldwin V de Douai, Seigneur d`Estaimbourg died 1381. They had a daughter referred
to on the chart as Isabeau d`Auberchicourt ,no husband mentioned.

According to the site Chronologie de la Seigneurie de Gourgechon, a Thierry
de Douchy was seigneur in 1254. a centurty later in 1354 Nicollon
d`Auberchicourt son nom apparait dans un recuil de droits seigneuraux (ADN B11951)
selon la meme source, Nicolon se desherite au profit de son frere en 1360

(meaning very roughly that Ncholas (probably III) d`Auberchicourt his named
appears among the record of rights of seigneurs and He disinherited his
brother from his share of the profits in 1360.) In 1370 He sold Gourgechon to Jean
de Bouttevillain in 1370

gerard.bieber

Re: Hohenstaufen Origins

Legg inn av gerard.bieber » 14 feb 2007 17:15:12

"> Foulques Nerra's second wife Hildegard, mother of Geoffroy Martel and
Ermengarde Blanche, died without remarrying, in Jerusalem, still titled as
countess of Anjou in various obituaries and chronicles. She was clearly
never duchess of Swabia.

OK. But do you confirm that this Hildegard is also caled of "Sundgau"? and
if there is a link with the Mouson family or family of Leon IX (former Bruno

bishop from Toul?).
Thanks.
>

gerard.bieber

Re: Hohenstaufen Origins

Legg inn av gerard.bieber » 14 feb 2007 19:10:49

"Sally Laine" <slaine4@sympatico.ca> a écrit dans le message de news:
mailman.3168.1171217753.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Friedrich of Buren died b1094 married Hildegarde of Mousson died 1095
daughter of Otto of Sundgau died 1044. This is probably sourced by
Genealogie Mittlealter. Will be interested if you find out more

J'ai trouvé dans "Grafen von Dagsburg-Eguisheim" de Franz Legl/SDV

Saarbrucker druckerei
1998.
STAMMTAFEL:
Louis de Dagsburg (Dabo)
/
Heilwig °° Hugo IV (+1038) count in Elsass-Eguisheim
/
Gerhard III (+1038) +Eberhard V + Bruno (Léo IX)+Hildegarde + N
°°Bertha
/
Hildegarde + Cono v.Maurienne + Gérold v.Genf
°° Frédéric de Bueren.
/
Hohenstaufen family

Any credibility?

Tony Hoskins

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mo

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 14 feb 2007 19:41:45

Thanks, Nat, for supplying the citation to Richer. And thanks so much,
Peter, for a most informative and illuminating discussion.

Peter, you say, "(regarding, amongst other serfs, a woman named
Constance - a name supposedly so rare that its later occurrence has been
taken to indicate his daughter)."

Where in this discussion was this claim made? Even "before Richer", I
certainly would not have said something so categorical. I might have
said something along the line that "Constance" was at least suggestive,
but that anyone could make the statement that on the basis of the name
alone Constance was must CC's daughter would be risible. Again, I missed
where this amusing claim was made.

Again, many thanks for casting such useful light on this matter,
showing again the need to always question received genealogical
identifications.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 19:58:02

Thanks for the reference to the Woolhope Society article, Matthew Connolly.
I am a great admirer of their Transactions already, and look forward to
reading the Coplestone-Crow piece in vol.XLIII (1979) as soon as I can get back to
Hereford.
In the meantime, could you possibly help by giving us an abstract of the
author's main conclusions?
The line I have, as far as the reign of Edw II, derived from secondary
source such as Duncumb's Herefordshire, the Llyfr Baglan, and a splendid
manuscript volume of pedigrees in the HRO, goes thus:-
!. Sir Robert Baskerville
+ Agnes, d. of Galfred Rees of Wales
1.1 Sir Radulphus de B, lord of Eardisley temp. HII
+ d. of Drogo, Lord Clifford
1.1.1Sir Roger de B of Eardisley temp.
+ d. of Sir Rothes le Gros, lord of Orcop
1.1.1.1 Walter de B.
+ Susanna, d. of Sir Walter Crigdon
1.1.1.1.1 Robert B
1.1.1.1.2. Sir Walter de B
+ Sybil, d. of John Streaton
1.1.1.1.2.1 Joan, wife of Roger, Lord Clifford
1.1.1.1.2.2 Sybil, wife of Hugh de Kinnersley
1.1.1.1.3. Richard B., sheriff of Hereford 8 & 9 Edw II
+ d. of Solers, kt. (whence the continuing line of Eardisley
Baskervilles, with marriages with Corbet, Poyns, Paveley and Everingham daughters)
1.1.1.1.4. George B, lord of Pickthorne, Salop (whence the Shropshire line,
and also that of Weston, Hds)
1.1.1.1.5. Another Robert- no known marriage issue

Camden, in his Britannia, refers thus to the family:-
"Erdsley, where the ancient familie of the Baskervills have long inhabited,
which bred in ancient time so many worthy knights, who deduce their pedigree
from a neice [sic] of Dame Gunora that most famous Lady in Normandy, and long
ago flourished in this county and Shropshire adjoyning": I take the quote
from
_http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/cambrit/contents.html_
(http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/camb ... tents.html)
where the University of Birmingham has reproduced Camden's book.

There are three intriguing Baskerviiles recorded in the Oxford DNB:
1. Thomas, son of Henry B and Ann Ratford, married to Mary, d. of Thomas
Throckmorton
(general of the fleet, buried Drake at sea), d. 1597
2. His son Hannibal, antiquary, 5 Apr 1597- March 1668
3. Hannibal's son Thomas, topographer, 1630-1700

I have not been able to attach these exciting Baskervilles to any pedigree
that I have seen.

So far as concerns Thomas the alderman of London, I have since replying to
Louise Staley's recent post had a look at the Shropshire Visitation for 1623
(Treswell, page 387), which can be seen on line if one gets into google books
via proxify.

A remarkable feature of the pedigree presented on this and the next page,
which gives an entirely conventional account of the Baskerville descent from
Sir James and his wife Elizabeth Touchet down to James, husband of Elizabeth
"Braynton" of Stretton, Salop, is that it shows Humphrey the alderman as fifth
son of this James and Elizabeth, and married to Joanna Packington, with the
six daughters Elizabeth Hungate, Angelica Maynard, Martha May, Anna Ducket,
Mary Gonston and Sarah Owen, wife of Thomas Owen, the well-known judge of the
King's Bench who is buried in Westminster Abbey, and whose brief biography
(describing him as the husband of Sarah, daughter of Humphrey Baskerville) is
in the Oxford DNB.
The same article gives a biography of his son Sir Roger Owen (1572-1617).
Both Thomas Owen and his son Roger were graduates of Christ Church, Oxford,
and Treasurers of Lincoln's Inn- which, as my friends will realise, makes me
predisposed to trust them and their close kin as reliable authorities on
genealogical matters.
The Shropshire pedigree is vouched for by Thomas Owen's youngest (5th) son
Sir William Owen, sheriff of Shropshire at the time of the visitation, but
who was living before the end of the 16th century, not long after the death of
his (in my present belief) grandfather Humphrey the Alderman, whose Will is
preserved at PROB 11/47, proved in 1564.

I am therefore finding myself driven towards accepting the very proposition
which I had rejected in my earlier posts, namely that Humphrey the alderman
was indeed a son of James Baskerville and Elizabeth Breynton.

As a result of this further effort I am convinced that the pedigrees on
which I relied in my earlier response to Louise Staley are unreliable. We must I
think look elsewhere for a credible ancestry for the Baskervilles of Aberedw,
and must welcome the alderman as a member of the main Baskerville of
Eardisley line.
MM




MM

Peter Stewart

Re: Hohenstaufen Origins

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 feb 2007 21:56:16

"gerard.bieber" <gerard.bieber@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:45d34308$0$25924$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

[I wrote:]
Foulques Nerra's second wife Hildegard, mother of Geoffroy Martel and
Ermengarde Blanche, died without remarrying, in Jerusalem, still titled
as countess of Anjou in various obituaries and chronicles. She was
clearly never duchess of Swabia.

OK. But do you confirm that this Hildegard is also caled of "Sundgau"? and
if there is a link with the Mouson family or family of Leon IX (former
Bruno
bishop from Toul?).
Thanks.

We have no evidence for the family of Foulques Nerra's second wife, except
that she came from Lotharingia and had royal blood - "a Lothariensium
partibus, de regali progenie ortam". Foulques died in Metz on return from a
pilgrimage to Jerusalem, and _maybe_ he was there visiting her family - but
we don't know this.

Otto II of Swabia's _possible_ wife was not the same lady. We have no direct
evidence that he ever married or had any children, but conjecture links him
with a sister of Pope Leo IX and gives them one or two daughters.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of hismot

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 feb 2007 22:08:26

"Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:mailman.3351.1171478581.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Thanks, Nat, for supplying the citation to Richer. And thanks so much,
Peter, for a most informative and illuminating discussion.

Peter, you say, "(regarding, amongst other serfs, a woman named
Constance - a name supposedly so rare that its later occurrence has been
taken to indicate his daughter)."

Where in this discussion was this claim made? Even "before Richer", I
certainly would not have said something so categorical. I might have
said something along the line that "Constance" was at least suggestive,
but that anyone could make the statement that on the basis of the name
alone Constance was must CC's daughter would be risible. Again, I missed
where this amusing claim was made.

Again, many thanks for casting such useful light on this matter,
showing again the need to always question received genealogical
identifications.

I didn't say, or mean, that a specific statement about the rarity of
Constance was made in this thread - "supposedly" to me does not limit the
frame of reference so narrowly. Nor does "taken to indicate his daughter"
mean that a Constance "must" have been such.

The defensive tone of your post is unfortunate. Settipani claimed that
Chaume had deduced Constance of Provence to be "certainement" a daughter of
Charles Constantine, based on her name and some speculative relationships.
While rejecting the latter part of the argument, he supported the former.
This specious idea is now unfortunately very widespread, not just in SGM.

Peter Stewart

Tony Hoskins

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of hismot

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 14 feb 2007 22:19:51

Thanks again, Peter. Your information and insights on this small
constellation of genealogical errors is really important. Sometimes,
it's daunting to realize the number of medieval false connections there
out there being believed and so in need of correction. I'm much obliged
to you.

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Peter Stewart

Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity ofhismoth

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 14 feb 2007 22:34:44

"Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:mailman.3356.1171488064.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Thanks again, Peter. Your information and insights on this small
constellation of genealogical errors is really important. Sometimes,
it's daunting to realize the number of medieval false connections there
out there being believed and so in need of correction. I'm much obliged
to you.

With regard to the name Constance, a further unwarranted speculation from
onomastics attempts to make Countess Constance of Dammartin into a daughter
of King Robert II and his wife Constance, but this too defies circumstantial
evidence. She most probably did not belong to the royal family.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 22:40:05

Leo does not show that Elizabeth Goushill, prior to her marriage to Sir
Robert Wingfield (b 1403) was married to any Duke of Howard.

Thinking perhaps you meant his grandmother I checked the four marriages of
Elizabeth FitzLewis and again I don't see a Duke of Howard. And of course we
have no source that tells us who his paternal grandmother was.

Can you clarify this point in your message?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 23:02:02

Regarding the ancestry of Sir John Wingfield of Leatheringham
(Son of John Wingfield by Elizabeth FitzLewis)

This John's great-grandmother was Elizabeth of Arundel, Duchess of Norfolk
her father was the 10th Earl of Arundel

Shouldn't Arundel be in his arms?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 23:22:04

In a message dated 2/14/07 10:57:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:

<< There are three intriguing Baskerviiles recorded in the Oxford DNB:
1. Thomas, son of Henry B and Ann Ratford, married to Mary, d. of Thomas
Throckmorton
(general of the fleet, buried Drake at sea), d. 1597
2. His son Hannibal, antiquary, 5 Apr 1597- March 1668
3. Hannibal's son Thomas, topographer, 1630-1700 >>


I would be interested if someone had more on this Mary Throckmorton and how
she connects to the other Throckmortons.

Hannibal Baskerville was born at Saint Valery, Picardy *evidently* (?) while
his father General Thomas was on some sort of campaign. He himself states
(DNB) that he had the other generals as his godfathers. It's a little
interesting that Hannibal's wife would accompany him on a military campaign, but this
woman Mary Baskerville, was herself a daughter of Capt Nicholas Baskerville of
Eardisley by his wife Constance Huntley of Boxwell.

Hannibal and Mary were to have 18 children, 16 sons and two daughters as DNB
states.

Hannibal's father Thomas died in Picardy just about two months after the
birth of his son.
Did Mary Throckmorton remarry?

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 23:30:04

In a message dated 2/14/07 10:57:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Millerfairfield@aol.com writes:

<< The Shropshire pedigree is vouched for by Thomas Owen's youngest (5th)
son
Sir William Owen, sheriff of Shropshire at the time of the visitation, but
who was living before the end of the 16th century, not long after the death
of
his (in my present belief) grandfather Humphrey the Alderman, whose Will
is
preserved at PROB 11/47, proved in 1564. >>

Something seems amiss in this paragraph.
Sarah Baskerville baptised 5 Mar 1552 which would then accord with her son
Roger being born in 1572 as you stated. But then you say that William, the
fifth and youngest son "...who was living ...not long after the death of Humphrey"

Surely William was born no *earlier* than 1580 ? That would be quite a time
after the death of Humphrey.

Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 23:35:04

<< 1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8

1 top right is Wingfield arms
2 De Boville arms (quarterly or and sable)

In a message dated 2/14/07 2:01:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, tim@powys.org
writes:
<< Always, top left should be the personal arms of the person whose
achievement it is.

The rest of the arms are known as quarterings, and there can be more
than four of these in English heraldry (though Scots heraldry does limit
things in a way to four). Each quartering should represent an heiress
who has been married by a male ancestor of the chap in No 1. These
quarterings are cumulative; if a chap marries an heiress, this brings
with her the quarterings that her father has, etc. >>


I can address the first one
Margaret de Boville was the heiress of Leatheringham which is how it came to
the Wingfields in the first place.

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 23:37:02

On number 3, we know that Joan and Elizabeth Goushill were heirs of their
father as they are returned in his IPM. So co-heirs of whatever he had,
Heveringham I suppose.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 23:40:03

Didn't Thomas FitzAlan, 11th Earl of /Arundel/ -1401-
d.s.p in 1415?

It would then seem that his four sisters should be his co-heirs
Would that situation count to allow her to be an "heiress" in an achievement?

Thanks
Will Johnson

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 14 feb 2007 23:40:56

On 14 Feb, 11:27, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Tim,

     Thanks for those lookups.

     The consanguinity between Muriel Keith and Reginald le Cheyne -
known to have been a great-grandson of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d.
1312) - is the sole evidence (if indirect) that these two individuals
had at least one ancestor/ancestress in common.  That Malise of
Strathearn had a Comyn wife (name yet in dispute) and that Sir John de
Keith was 'said to have' married a Margaret Comyn is the one link I
have found that would meet this test, but only if

     (A) Ms. Comyn (allegedly Margaret) married both Earl Malise
         and Sir John de Keith, and

     (B) That she was a daughter of Earl Alexander, not of his father
         Earl William.

      Cheers,

                                  John

On Feb 14, 6:06 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:



In message of 14 Feb, Ther...@aol.com wrote:

Wednesday, 14 February, 2007

Dear Will,

     As to the name Margaret, this was not taken from William
 Alexander Lindsay's work, unless someone also of that name was
 the author of the Scots Peerage article on the Keiths.  The first
 note in my post concerning Margaret Comyn was to the Keith article
 in Scots Peerage, where it was stated that Sir John de Keith's
 wife was ' Margaret Comyn who may have been dau. of William earl
 of Buchan ' [SP VI:28-29, sub Keith, Earl Marischal].  I don't
 have notes as to the source cited there: this is of course
 assuming that there was actually cited as to that statement,
 which may not be the case.

SP has no notes on its source for this and the full statement is:

  "He is said to have married Margaret Comyn, who may have been daughter
  of William, Earl of Buchan"

and I gather that 'He is said ...' means that it is only to be found in
later pedigrees with no documentary evidence of the times of the people
concerned.

There is no correction in Vol IX, Addenda et Corrigenda.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          t...@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have the following tree, which I hope can be corrected with known
facts and educated conjecture. Please feel free to add comments

Reginald le Chen-----Mary de Moravia? Reginald le
Chen-----Dau of William Comyn Malise----------Dau of Comyn
3rd of Inverugie |
2nd of Inverugie | Earl of Buchan of Stratearn |

|
| |
Isabel de Cuming(Comyn)-----Francis (Freskin?) le Chen Reginald
le Chen-----Mary de Moravia Malise---Matilda

| 3rd of Inverugie
| |

|
| |
? le Chen-----Edward de
Keth Reginald le
Chen--------------------------------Helen

| 3rd of
Inverugie |

|
|
John de
Keth-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marion le Chen

|

Andrew de Keith

The above Chart is combined from information from
Keith Sintoun, Inverugy, Ludquhon, Ravenscraig by Donald M McIntosh
1998
The Cheyne Family in Scotland by Lieut. Colonel A. Y. Cheyne 1931

Thank you,

Grothenwell

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 14 feb 2007 23:43:59

On 14 Feb, 22:40, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14 Feb, 11:27, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:





Dear Tim,

? ? ?Thanks for those lookups.

? ? ?The consanguinity between Muriel Keith and Reginald le Cheyne -
known to have been a great-grandson of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d.
1312) - is the sole evidence (if indirect) that these two individuals
had at least one ancestor/ancestress in common. ?That Malise of
Strathearn had a Comyn wife (name yet in dispute) and that Sir John de
Keith was 'said to have' married a Margaret Comyn is the one link I
have found that would meet this test, but only if

? ? ?(A) Ms. Comyn (allegedly Margaret) married both Earl Malise
? ? ? ? ?and Sir John de Keith, and

? ? ?(B) That she was a daughter of Earl Alexander, not of his father
? ? ? ? ?Earl William.

? ? ? Cheers,

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? John

On Feb 14, 6:06 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:

In message of 14 Feb, Ther...@aol.com wrote:

Wednesday, 14 February, 2007

Dear Will,

? ? ?As to the name Margaret, this was not taken from William
?Alexander Lindsay's work, unless someone also of that name was
?the author of the Scots Peerage article on the Keiths. ?The first
?note in my post concerning Margaret Comyn was to the Keith article
?in Scots Peerage, where it was stated that Sir John de Keith's
?wife was ' Margaret Comyn who may have been dau. of William earl
?of Buchan ' [SP VI:28-29, sub Keith, Earl Marischal]. ?I don't
?have notes as to the source cited there: this is of course
?assuming that there was actually cited as to that statement,
?which may not be the case.

SP has no notes on its source for this and the full statement is:

? "He is said to have married Margaret Comyn, who may have been daughter
? of William, Earl of Buchan"

and I gather that 'He is said ...' means that it is only to be found in
later pedigrees with no documentary evidence of the times of the people
concerned.

There is no correction in Vol IX, Addenda et Corrigenda.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?t...@powys.org
? ? ? ? ? ? ?For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have the following tree, which I hope can be corrected with known
facts and educated conjecture. Please feel free to add comments

             Reginald le Chen-----Mary de Moravia?        Reginald le
Chen-----Dau of William Comyn   Malise----------Dau of Comyn
             3rd of Inverugie     |
2nd of Inverugie    |            Earl of Buchan    of Stratearn  |

|
|                                                        |
Isabel de Cuming(Comyn)-----Francis (Freskin?) le Chen       Reginald
le Chen-----Mary de Moravia                Malise---Matilda

|                                                3rd of Inverugie
|                                                    |

|
|                                                    |
                               ? le Chen-----Edward de
Keth                                  Reginald le
Chen--------------------------------Helen

|                                                           3rd of
Inverugie              |

|
|
                                             John de
Keth-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marion le Chen

|

Andrew de Keith

The above Chart is combined from information from
Keith Sintoun, Inverugy, Ludquhon, Ravenscraig by Donald M McIntosh
1998
The Cheyne Family in Scotland by Lieut. Colonel A. Y. Cheyne 1931

Thank you,

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Listen Chaps,

I'm really sorry about how that came out. I spent a good while
constructing that and It certainly didn't look like how it has turned
out. I am really disappointed. Please ignore

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 14 feb 2007 23:57:02

Dear Will, Elizabeth de Arundel married four times, her 3rd husband was
Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk. their daughter Margaret de Mowbray married Sir
Robert Howard and their son John Howard was created Duke of Norfolk in 1483
and was killed and attainted in 1485, his son Thomas Howard made Earl of
Surrey in 1483 was granted the Duchy of Norfolk in 1514 for being in command of the
English arm at Flodden Field in 1513. He died in 1524. Source: PA:
197-9

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 00:02:02

In a message dated 2/14/07 3:30:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< The consanguinity between Muriel Keith and Reginald le Cheyne -
known to have been a great-grandson of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d.
1312) - is the sole evidence (if indirect) that these two individuals
had at least one ancestor/ancestress in common. >>

I have gaps in both ancestries, but ferociously in that of Reginald.
For Muriel Keith, her great-grandparents I show
1 William de Keith d bef 1293
2 Barbara Seton
3 Alexander de Synton
4 NN
5 Alexander of /Fraser/ Chamberlain of Scotland d 3 Aug 1332
6 Mary de Brus, Baroness /Fraser/
7 NN Fraser
8 NN

For Reginald le Cheney it's sparse
1 NN Cheney , 2 NN, 3 NN, 4 NN
5 Malise, 6th Earl of /Strathearn/ bef 1281- d 1312/3
6 Agnes NN possibly Comyn d aft 1309
7 and 8 NN

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 00:03:02

In a message dated 2/14/07 2:56:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< Dear Will, Elizabeth de Arundel married four times, her 3rd husband was
Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk. their daughter Margaret de Mowbray married
Sir
Robert Howard and their son John Howard was created Duke of Norfolk in
1483 >>

Yes but the original query stated that Elizabeth had married into the Dukes
of Howard. Instead it was, by your above, that Elizabeth's daughter, therefore
a sibling of this line, who did married into the Howard family.

Will

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 00:20:03

In a message dated 2/14/07 2:45:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:

<< I have the following tree, which I hope can be corrected with known
facts and educated conjecture. Please feel free to add comments >>

Your graphical representation is all messed up.

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 15 feb 2007 00:25:12

On 14 Feb, 22:43, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14 Feb, 22:40, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:





On 14 Feb, 11:27, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Tim,

? ? ?Thanks for those lookups.

? ? ?The consanguinity between Muriel Keith and Reginald le Cheyne -
known to have been a great-grandson of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d.
1312) - is the sole evidence (if indirect) that these two individuals
had at least one ancestor/ancestress in common. ?That Malise of
Strathearn had a Comyn wife (name yet in dispute) and that Sir John de
Keith was 'said to have' married a Margaret Comyn is the one link I
have found that would meet this test, but only if

? ? ?(A) Ms. Comyn (allegedly Margaret) married both Earl Malise
? ? ? ? ?and Sir John de Keith, and

? ? ?(B) That she was a daughter of Earl Alexander, not of his father
? ? ? ? ?Earl William.

? ? ? Cheers,

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? John

On Feb 14, 6:06 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:

In message of 14 Feb, Ther...@aol.com wrote:

Wednesday, 14 February, 2007

Dear Will,

? ? ?As to the name Margaret, this was not taken from William
?Alexander Lindsay's work, unless someone also of that name was
?the author of the Scots Peerage article on the Keiths. ?The first
?note in my post concerning Margaret Comyn was to the Keith article
?in Scots Peerage, where it was stated that Sir John de Keith's
?wife was ' Margaret Comyn who may have been dau. of William earl
?of Buchan ' [SP VI:28-29, sub Keith, Earl Marischal]. ?I don't
?have notes as to the source cited there: this is of course
?assuming that there was actually cited as to that statement,
?which may not be the case.

SP has no notes on its source for this and the full statement is:

? "He is said to have married Margaret Comyn, who may have been daughter
? of William, Earl of Buchan"

and I gather that 'He is said ...' means that it is only to be found in
later pedigrees with no documentary evidence of the times of the people
concerned.

There is no correction in Vol IX, Addenda et Corrigenda.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?...@powys.org
? ? ? ? ? ? ?For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/-Hidequoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have the following tree, which I hope can be corrected with known
facts and educated conjecture. Please feel free to add comments

? ? ? ? ? ? ?Reginald le Chen-----Mary de Moravia? ? ? ? ?Reginald le
Chen-----Dau of William Comyn ? Malise----------Dau of Comyn
? ? ? ? ? ? ?3rd of Inverugie ? ? |
2nd of Inverugie ? ?| ? ? ? ? ? ?Earl of Buchan ? ?of Stratearn ?|

|
| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
Isabel de Cuming(Comyn)-----Francis (Freskin?) le Chen ? ? ? Reginald
le Chen-----Mary de Moravia ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Malise---Matilda

| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?3rd of Inverugie
| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|

|
| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? le Chen-----Edward de
Keth ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Reginald le
Chen--------------------------------Helen

| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3rd of
Inverugie ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|

|
|
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?John de
Keth-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marion le Chen

|

Andrew de Keith

The above Chart is combined from information from
Keith Sintoun, Inverugy, Ludquhon, Ravenscraig by Donald M McIntosh
1998
The Cheyne Family in Scotland by Lieut. Colonel A. Y. Cheyne 1931

Thank you,

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Listen Chaps,

I'm really sorry about how that came out. I spent a good while
constructing that and It certainly didn't look like how it has turned
out. I am really disappointed. Please ignore- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Last try, if this fails I don't know what to do.

(Ronald Chien--Mary Moray) (Reginald Chen--Dau of W.Comyn) (Malise--
Dau of A. Comyn)
| |
|
|
| |
(Freskin Chen-----Isabel Cuming) (Ronald Chien-----Mary Moray)
(Malise------Matida)
|
| |
|
| |
(? le Chien---Sir Edward de Keth) (Ronald
Chien----------------Helen)
| |

| |
(Sir John de Keth---------------------------------Marion le
Chien)
|
|
Sir Andrew de Keith

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 15 feb 2007 00:33:32

On 14 Feb, 23:25, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14 Feb, 22:43, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:





On 14 Feb, 22:40, "grothenwell" <jbrec...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 14 Feb, 11:27, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:

Dear Tim,

? ? ?Thanks for those lookups.

? ? ?The consanguinity between Muriel Keith and Reginald le Cheyne -
known to have been a great-grandson of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d.
1312) - is the sole evidence (if indirect) that these two individuals
had at least one ancestor/ancestress in common. ?That Malise of
Strathearn had a Comyn wife (name yet in dispute) and that Sir John de
Keith was 'said to have' married a Margaret Comyn is the one link I
have found that would meet this test, but only if

? ? ?(A) Ms. Comyn (allegedly Margaret) married both Earl Malise
? ? ? ? ?and Sir John de Keith, and

? ? ?(B) That she was a daughter of Earl Alexander, not of his father
? ? ? ? ?Earl William.

? ? ? Cheers,

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? John

On Feb 14, 6:06 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:

In message of 14 Feb, Ther...@aol.com wrote:

Wednesday, 14 February, 2007

Dear Will,

? ? ?As to the name Margaret, this was not taken from William
?Alexander Lindsay's work, unless someone also of that name was
?the author of the Scots Peerage article on the Keiths. ?The first
?note in my post concerning Margaret Comyn was to the Keith article
?in Scots Peerage, where it was stated that Sir John de Keith's
?wife was ' Margaret Comyn who may have been dau. of William earl
?of Buchan ' [SP VI:28-29, sub Keith, Earl Marischal]. ?I don't
?have notes as to the source cited there: this is of course
?assuming that there was actually cited as to that statement,
?which may not be the case.

SP has no notes on its source for this and the full statement is:

? "He is said to have married Margaret Comyn, who may have been daughter
? of William, Earl of Buchan"

and I gather that 'He is said ...' means that it is only to be found in
later pedigrees with no documentary evidence of the times of the people
concerned.

There is no correction in Vol IX, Addenda et Corrigenda.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?...@powys.org
? ? ? ? ? ? ?For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/-Hidequotedtext -

- Show quoted text -

I have the following tree, which I hope can be corrected with known
facts and educated conjecture. Please feel free to add comments

? ? ? ? ? ? ?Reginald le Chen-----Mary de Moravia? ? ? ? ?Reginald le
Chen-----Dau of William Comyn ? Malise----------Dau of Comyn
? ? ? ? ? ? ?3rd of Inverugie ? ? |
2nd of Inverugie ? ?| ? ? ? ? ? ?Earl of Buchan ? ?of Stratearn ?|

|
| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
Isabel de Cuming(Comyn)-----Francis (Freskin?) le Chen ? ? ? Reginald
le Chen-----Mary de Moravia ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Malise---Matilda

| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?3rd of Inverugie
| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|

|
| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? le Chen-----Edward de
Keth ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Reginald le
Chen--------------------------------Helen

| ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3rd of
Inverugie ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|

|
|
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?John de
Keth-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marion le Chen

|

Andrew de Keith

The above Chart is combined from information from
Keith Sintoun, Inverugy, Ludquhon, Ravenscraig by Donald M McIntosh
1998
The Cheyne Family in Scotland by Lieut. Colonel A. Y. Cheyne 1931

Thank you,

Grothenwell- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Listen Chaps,

I'm really sorry about how that came out. I spent a good while
constructing that and It certainly didn't look like how it has turned
out. I am really disappointed. Please ignore- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Last try, if this fails I don't know what to do.

(R Chien&Mary Moray)(R Chen&Dau of W.Comyn)(Malise&Dau of A. Comyn)
       |                                 | |
       | |                        |
(F Chen&Isabel Cuming)(R Chien&M Moray) (Malise&Matida)
        | |                                |
        | |                                |
(? le Chien&EKeth) � � � � � (R Chien----------------------Helen)
        |                                               |
| � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � |
(Sir John de Keth---------------------------------Marion Chien)
                           |
                           |
            Sir Andrew de Keith-


No luck

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 15 feb 2007 00:50:34

In message of 14 Feb, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Didn't Thomas FitzAlan, 11th Earl of /Arundel/ -1401-
d.s.p in 1415?

It would then seem that his four sisters should be his co-heirs
Would that situation count to allow her to be an "heiress" in an achievement?

Yes. In English practice, the eldest male heir inherits absolutely; if
there are no males, then are the females are treated as equal and
share the inheritance and thus the arms. Though there was a custom that
the eldest daughter got the caput residence. (In Scotland the eldest
daughter inherits any title, not sure about the rest of the estate.)

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 00:59:02

In a message dated 2/14/07 6:49:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, Jwc1870@aol.com
writes:

<< The first from a a PDF chart of the
de Mortaigne/ van Peteghem family shows Marie de Mortaigne as married to
Baldwin V de Douai, Seigneur d`Estaimbourg died 1381. They had a daughter
referred
to on the chart as Isabeau d`Auberchicourt ,no husband mentioned. >>

Do you have a specific citation to this chart?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 01:13:02

Thank Tim but what I'm saying is more specifically, if a male DID inherit and
then died S.P. so that his sisters (not daughters) then became heiresses.

Would that fact, that his *sisters* were heiresses of him, allow them to
include *his* arms as an achievement? Or do they include their fathers arms? Or
none.

Thanks
Will

Kelly Leighton

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Kelly Leighton » 15 feb 2007 01:30:02

Tim, researchers,

The Tickencote picture seems to date from at least 1650 according to page 3
of Some Records of the Wingfield Family by Wingfield, John M.
London: Murray, 1925 republished by Wingfield Family Society in 1991. ISBN
0-937543-03-9.

As I mentioned to a couple of you off-line, the book must be purchased from
the Wingfield Family Society (after becoming a member), as it is the members
that have paid to have it reprinted. I do know that copies can be looked at
though, as Boston's NEHGS has a copy.

From Page 3:

"Sir Robert Wyngfeld of Letheringham, his [Sir Robert who d. May 3rd, 1409]
son, born in 1408, had a large family of six or seven sons and five
daughters, and it is of him, together with his children and grandchildren,
who played no small part in the affairs of the realm of England, that the
present work [Wingfield's book] treats.

His eldest son was Sir John Wyngfeld of Letheringham, Knight, who, with his
wife, form the two central figures in the old pedigree oil paintings which
provide the subject of these records.

There are two of these oictures in existence, almost identically alike, one
at Tickencote Hall, Rutland, and the other at Boughton House, Northants. It
is not known which is the original and which is the copy.

The one at Tickncote, now [1925] belonging to Lieut.-Col. John Maurice
Wingfield, was painted on canvas, and it has probably been there since about
1650, as it is most likely that it had been the property of the last Sir
Robert Wingfield of Upton, in Northamptonshire, who is believed to have died
during the commonwealth, and many of whose oil paintings had been at that
time removed to his cousin's house at Tickencote, when Upton was sold, and
which are still there."

The author states that "the picture in Boughton house can easily be traced
back to 1677" (page 4) and gives a few statements from the mid 1700s
refering to movement of the picture and its presentation to the Duke of
Montague.

The author states on page 6 that "When, or by whose order, or by whom it was
painted, is still a question undecided by experts."

Again, my questions to the group center not around the genealogical
connections of the participants, (the Wingfields have been researched fairly
well, and despite my typo on the Howard family, I do have the pedigree
accurately annotated here in RI) but on the logic of which shields were
displayed by the latter two generations. I believe I have an idea of what
"should" be on the respective shields, and am questioning why, in this case,
that does not appear to be what is shown. Either I am mistaken in my
understanding, or the Wingfield's were playing pretty fast and loose with
their arms for some purpose which we may not yet understand.

I believe Tim will be posting the scans of the picture to his site, and will
post that link to the newsgroup. Perhaps then some reasoning for the
extended generations suddenly appearing in the heraldry will come to light.

Take care,

Kelly in RI

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 01:39:02

In a message dated 2/14/07 4:30:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, kleigh1@cox.net
writes:

<< Again, my questions to the group center not around the genealogical
connections of the participants, (the Wingfields have been researched fairly
well, and despite my typo on the Howard family, I do have the pedigree
accurately annotated here in RI) >>

I'm not sure this is an accurate statement. Does your book address the
generation *prior* to John Russell who married Anne NN and thus became the parents
of Elizabeth Russell who m Sir Robert Wingfield ?

That is, who were John and Ann's parents?

Also does it address the maiden name of Nicholas de Goushill's wife Joan ?

Thanks
Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av John P. Ravilious » 15 feb 2007 01:42:01

Dear Will,

I have the following to fill in some of the gaps you show for
the great-grandparents of Reginald le Cheyne. One of the primary
additions is due to his paternal grandmother (NN in your post) having
been Mary de Moravia (als de Moray), sister and coheiress of Freskin
de Moravia of Duffus (her parents Walter de Moravia and Euphemia of
Ross appear below). There is the question as to his maternal
grandmother: I hold she was Joanna de Menteith, 2nd wife of Malise,
Earl of Strathearn. This would at least provide a near explanation
for Joanna's daughter Helen of Strathearn (wife successively of
Reginald le Cheyne, the father, and of Sir David de Graham) being
named for Helen de Menteith, sister of Joanna and wife of Sir Colin
Campbell of Lochow (d. bef May 1343).

Unfortunately, I think there are added gaps in Muriel Keith's
ancestry (see below). As to either additions proposed to your tables
below, please advise of any noted conflicts, or what documentation
might indicate any error noted.

Cheers,

John


I have gaps in both ancestries, but ferociously in that of Reginald.
For Muriel Keith, her great-grandparents I show
1 William de Keith d bef 1293
2 Barbara Seton

<<<<<<<< This should be "NN" .

I'm not aware of any documentation supporting the
identification of this spouse as Barbara Seton.
If you have noted any, please advise.

3 Alexander de Synton
4 NN
5 Alexander of /Fraser/ Chamberlain of Scotland d 3 Aug 1332
6 Mary de Brus, Baroness /Fraser/

<<<<<<<<< This should be "NN" .

Sir Alexander Fraser married Mary Bruce (or de Brus),
and had a son John identified as 'nepos' of Robert
_the_Bruce. This son was a younger John, however, and
not his heir. John Fraser, later lord of Aboyne, was
the son of a first marriage (this wife unknown; I have
this on the authority of Andrew MacEwen).

7 NN Fraser

<<<<<<<<<< This would indicate that John Fraser of Aboyne's
wife was allegedly a Fraser by birth? What would
the basis for this be?



For Reginald le Cheney it's sparse [NOTE ADDITIONS BELOW]
1 NN Cheney
2 NN

3 Walter de Moravia (son of Hugh de Moravia, and Annabela of Fife)
4 Euphemia of Ross (dau. of Fearchar, 1st Earl of Ross and NN de
Brus)
5 Malise, 6th Earl of /Strathearn/ bef 1281- d 1312/3
6 Agnes NN possibly Comyn d aft 1309
7 Sir John de Menteith (son of Walter Stewart, E of Menteith and

Mary of Menteith)
8 NN



========================================================================




On Feb 14, 6:00 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/14/07 3:30:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, ther...@aol.com
writes:

The consanguinity between Muriel Keith and Reginald le Cheyne -
known to have been a great-grandson of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d.
1312) - is the sole evidence (if indirect) that these two individuals
had at least one ancestor/ancestress in common.

I have gaps in both ancestries, but ferociously in that of Reginald.
For Muriel Keith, her great-grandparents I show
1 William de Keith d bef 1293
2 Barbara Seton
3 Alexander de Synton
4 NN
5 Alexander of /Fraser/ Chamberlain of Scotland d 3 Aug 1332
6 Mary de Brus, Baroness /Fraser/
7 NN Fraser
8 NN

For Reginald le Cheney it's sparse
1 NN Cheney , 2 NN, 3 NN, 4 NN
5 Malise, 6th Earl of /Strathearn/ bef 1281- d 1312/3
6 Agnes NN possibly Comyn d aft 1309
7 and 8 NN

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Agnes Beler

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 01:43:08

In a message dated 2/13/07 8:31:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,
anngodden@anngodden.karoo.co.uk writes:

<< According to online sources, Elizabeth Villiers married Sir Ralph
Woodford, early 15the century, in Leicestershire. Elizabeth was the
daughter of William Villiers and Agnes Beler. Now, I would like to
connect Agnes to Sir Roger Beler, murdered by Eustace de Folville, but
I can't find any information about her. Can anyone help?

What is the source that says her name was Agnes ?
This William Villiers is probably that same one called "of Brokesby" who d
1481. He has an entry at genealogics.

It's possible this "Agnes" who I have as Joan was a sister of that Marina
Bellers who m Sir Thomas Greene, Knt d 1461/2 of Green's Norton who appears in AR

Will

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 15 feb 2007 01:55:12

In message of 15 Feb, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Thank Tim but what I'm saying is more specifically, if a male DID
inherit and then died S.P. so that his sisters (not daughters) then
became heiresses.

Would that fact, that his *sisters* were heiresses of him, allow them
to include *his* arms as an achievement? Or do they include their
fathers arms? Or none.

They are indeed heirs of their brother. But the brother had the same
arms as the father, having inherited same.

Technically it is a matter of representation, the heirs of the sisters
are the co-representatives (on this earth) of the father and thus they
quarter his arms to show that his line in some manner survives. Or at
least I _think_ representatives are descendants whereas heirs can be
very remote relations. Anyone any views?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 01:57:02

In a message dated 2/14/07 4:45:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< I'm not aware of any documentation supporting the
identification of this spouse as Barbara Seton.
If you have noted any, please advise. >>

An unsupported statement in SP as you yourself pointed out :)
Will

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 02:00:03

In a message dated 2/14/07 4:45:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< > 7 NN Fraser

<<<<<<<<<< This would indicate that John Fraser of Aboyne's
wife was allegedly a Fraser by birth? What would
the basis for this be? >>

I agree, and show no source, so I'm nullifying it

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 02:07:02

In a message dated 2/14/07 4:45:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< 7 Sir John de Menteith (son of Walter Stewart, E of Menteith and
Mary of Menteith)
8 NN >>

This one of course is predicated on Joanna of Menteith m abt 1323, having
children by Malise. We know that this Malise has an unknown wife before Joanna.
I've assigned Helen to that prior marriage so that she was a full sister of
Malise 8th Earl who m Marjory de Ros and died between 1344 and 1357

Will

Kelly Leighton

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Kelly Leighton » 15 feb 2007 02:07:03

Will,

While these are good questions, I did not make the claim that the adjoining families to the Wingfield line were fully fleshed out, merely that the Wingfield line had been researched pretty thoroughly. The book that the picture came from, beyond the Tickencote picture itself, does not appear to add to the geneaology of the family or the preceeding generations.

It certainly does not address the families you ask about.

I did look for other families for the more confusing (to me) arms, but these are the families I could point to with connections that I knew.

Thank you Tim, for posting the pictures for everyone's benefit.

As an addition, while the picture I sent Tim has the chequy or and azure (gold and blue checkerboard) labeled as unknown, I discovered later that this is the Duke of Howard's arms, though why it may be on these shields is one of my questions.

In my research. both that and the red chevron do not appear to have many other families which have known connections to the Wingfields in question.

Take care,

Kelly in RI

From: WJhonson@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:37:16 EST
In a message dated 2/14/07 4:30:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, kleigh1@cox.net
writes:

<< Again, my questions to the group center not around the genealogical
connections of the participants, (the Wingfields have been researched fairly
well, and despite my typo on the Howard family, I do have the pedigree
accurately annotated here in RI) >>

I'm not sure this is an accurate statement. Does your book address the
generation *prior* to John Russell who married Anne NN and thus became the parents
of Elizabeth Russell who m Sir Robert Wingfield ?

That is, who were John and Ann's parents?

Also does it address the maiden name of Nicholas de Goushill's wife Joan ?

Thanks
Will Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From: Kelly Leighton
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:42 PM
Subject: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms


Researchers,

I have been researching the arms found in The Tickencote picture/painting representation in John M. Wingfield's Some Records of the Wingfield Family. I have a few questions that perhaps someone better educated in heraldry could answer. There are three generations of Wingfield arms represented in this picture, and wives' arms, as well.

A) Robert Wingfield who married Elizabeth Gousell had the traditional Wingfield arms ( arg on a bend gules, cotised sable three pairs of wings conjoined of the field) on the left half of his shield, and the Gousell arms ( Barry (6) or and gules, a canton ermine) on the right half. Nothing "abnormal" about this.

B) His son John who married Elizabeth Fitzlewis (dau of John Fitzlewis says the author) is the central figure and has changed things up a bit. His shield has eight depictions on it!

1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8

1 top right is Wingfield arms
2 De Boville arms (quarterly or and sable)
3 Gousell arms
4 then something strange (to me). The fourth (and rightmost on the top) is chequy or and azure.
5 Bottom left of the shield is a quartering of Gousell and this chequy or and azure
6 Wingfield
7 chequy or and azure
8 Gousell to finish this up

Chequy or and azure appears to be the arms of the Dukes of Howard. His mother was married to one of the dukes prior to her marriage with his father.

Would a man bring a great great grandparent's arms into his shield with no evidence of his father using those arms? Would a man bring in a mother's previous marriage into his arms so prominently, again without his father having done so?

This John's wife's arms are also displayed in this Tickencote picture. The left half of the shield represent the arms of John Lewis (so named by source 4 below, which Douglas Richardson also confirms). "Sable, a chevron between three trefoils argent." The right side is quartered. The top: Montagu (argent three loznges conjoined in fess gules), Mortimer (or an eagle displayed vert), and the bottom: Mortimer, Montagu. So, her shield seems understandable.

But none of these symbols are on her husband's shield.

I believe the Tickencote picture is representing John and Elizabeth (and most of their children), and John's father Robert (previously mentioned above) at John and Elizabeth's wedding, though the picture was obviously created many years later. Would John's arms have changed after the marriage to include her arms? If so, why weren't his own arms more closely related to his fathers?

C) Next in the picture is John and Elizabeth's son John who married Anne Tuchet. His arms (she is not shown, merely referred to in text below this John) also seem slightly confusing. They are also divided into eight parts.

1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8

1 Wingfield
2 Boville
3 Audley (Gules a fret or)
4 argent a chevron gules (It is possible there is more to this, although this looks like all of it)
5 Bottom left of the shield is a quartering of Gousell and this chequy or and azure
6 Wingfield
7 argent a chevron gules
8 Audley

The left side is exactly as his father John's are. The right side appears to be a quartering of his wife's Audley ams with the chevron. The picture seems to be merely that of a red chevron, but it is possible that there is something small that I am missing. The only Red chevron on a white background that I've found refers to the Teys family, which this John's wife's grandmother Margaret Knyvet married into (first) before marrying Thomas Echingham. Robert De Teye (d 1415) was Margaret's first husband, it appears.

Would a man put his wife's grandmother's first husband on his arms and leave off any reference to his own mother's distinctive lineage?

Also, since neither Elizabeth Fitzlewis nor Anne Tuchet appeared to have had full brothers, shouldn't there be a "escutcheon of pretense" in younger John's shield with his wife's arms? If John sr had included his wife's arms, would his ife's have been in one of these "escutcheon of pretense" in his?

This has taken some time to identify and articulate, I hope to see some productive comments.

Thanks,

Kelly in RI


Sources:

1) Some Records of the Wingfield Family.
Wingfield, John M.
London: Murray, 1925 republished by Wingfield Family Society in 1991
ISBN 0-937543-03-9

2) The complete book of heraldry : an international history of heraldry and its contemporary uses
Slater, Stephen
London: Anness Publishing Ltd. (2002)

3) An alphabetical dictionary of coats of arms belonging to families in Great Britain and Ireland; forming an extensive ordinary of British armorials.
Papworth, John W and Alfred William Whitehead Morant
Publisher: Baltimore, Genealogical Pub. Co., 1965.

4) Some Feudal Coats of Arms From the Heraldic Rolls 1298-1418.
Foster, Joseph.
London: James Parkers & Co., 1902.

5) An heraldic alphabet
Brooke-Little, J P
Arco Publishing Co. c John Brooke-Little 1973

6) Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Medieval and Colonial Families
Richardson, Douglas
Kimball G. Everingham, editor published (May 2004)by Genealogical Publishing Company, Inc. of Baltimore, Maryland

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 02:17:02

In a message dated 2/14/07 5:07:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, kleigh1@cox.net
writes:

<< While these are good questions, I did not make the claim that the
adjoining families to the Wingfield line were fully fleshed out, merely that the
Wingfield line had been researched pretty thoroughly. The book that the picture
came from, beyond the Tickencote picture itself, does not appear to add to the
geneaology of the family or the preceeding generations.

It certainly does not address the families you ask about. >>


The achievement as I understand it, includes all heiresses of that target
person. In this regard, the Wingfields themselves are not the target. Rather
the target is every ancestor of John Wingfield for instance. The persons I
named are in fact, ancestors of John Wingfield and so their families are quite
germane to his achievement it would seem to me.

So it does appear that there is work that should be done on those families if
you want to answer the question.

Will

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Henry Denton of Maryland

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 03:01:02

In a message dated 2/13/07 11:21:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< Perhaps Thomas Vachell who married Katherine
Meverell was a son of Lettice Knollys and named his daughter after his
mother. >>

I think you may be right here.
There is a Lettice Vachell chr at St Lawrence Jewry 4 Apr 1639

Will

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 15 feb 2007 03:15:08

In article <mailman.3374.1171499432.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Kelly Leighton" <kleigh1@cox.net> wrote:

Tim, researchers,

The Tickencote picture seems to date from at least 1650 according to page 3
of Some Records of the Wingfield Family by Wingfield, John M.
London: Murray, 1925 republished by Wingfield Family Society in 1991. ISBN
0-937543-03-9.

From Page 3:

"Sir Robert Wyngfeld of Letheringham, his [Sir Robert who d. May 3rd, 1409]
son, born in 1408, had a large family of six or seven sons and five
daughters, and it is of him, together with his children and grandchildren,
who played no small part in the affairs of the realm of England, that the
present work [Wingfield's book] treats.

His eldest son was Sir John Wyngfeld of Letheringham, Knight, who, with his
wife, form the two central figures in the old pedigree oil paintings which
provide the subject of these records.

There are two of these oictures in existence, almost identically alike, one
at Tickencote Hall, Rutland, and the other at Boughton House, Northants. It
is not known which is the original and which is the copy.

The one at Tickncote, now [1925] belonging to Lieut.-Col. John Maurice
Wingfield, was painted on canvas, and it has probably been there since about
1650, as it is most likely that it had been the property of the last Sir
Robert Wingfield of Upton, in Northamptonshire, who is believed to have died
during the commonwealth, and many of whose oil paintings had been at that
time removed to his cousin's house at Tickencote, when Upton was sold, and
which are still there."

The author states that "the picture in Boughton house can easily be traced
back to 1677" (page 4) and gives a few statements from the mid 1700s
refering to movement of the picture and its presentation to the Duke of
Montague.

The author states on page 6 that "When, or by whose order, or by whom it was
painted, is still a question undecided by experts."

Again, my questions to the group center not around the genealogical
connections of the participants, (the Wingfields have been researched fairly
well, and despite my typo on the Howard family, I do have the pedigree
accurately annotated here in RI) but on the logic of which shields were
displayed by the latter two generations. I believe I have an idea of what
"should" be on the respective shields, and am questioning why, in this case,
that does not appear to be what is shown. Either I am mistaken in my
understanding, or the Wingfield's were playing pretty fast and loose with
their arms for some purpose which we may not yet understand.

Kelly, thanks for sending me pictures, and thanks to Tim for saving me
the trouble of putting them online. Looking this over along with the
pedigrees in Viscount Powerscourt's _Muniments of the Ancient Saxon
Family of Wingfield_, the organization is now clear to me; it also seems
that there is one glaring heraldic error, right in the middle, perhaps
the source of your confusion. I will admit I haven't double-checked all
the children's impalings and I have one other unanswered question (what
is the coroneted lozenge in the lower register?). The red lines
apparently superimposed on this image in the book are not particularly
helpful, and the annotated 'key' doesn't actually reproduce the text
captions and doesn't describe everyone whose arms are shown.

There are two interesting points to the picture suggesting two different
focuses. First, it centers on a fifteenth-century marriage and shows
the children of that marriage, but no later issue. Second, it shows a
collateral branch with descent down to the seventeenth century.

The central panel is the marriage of Sir John Wingfield (d. 1481) to
Elizabeth, dau. of Sir John Fitz Lewis and Anne (Montacute). The two
figures kneel at the center, and are surmounted by impalings of their
parents' arms in wreaths. The heraldic error is here, since Sir John's
father's achievement both quarters and impales Gousell (actually,
Gousell quartered with this chequy coat). This is an error. It is
obvious that the quartering of Gousell plus the chequy coat comes in at
that point, so it cannot be both quartered and impaled in the wreath
(unless, by implication, Sir John who d. 1481 had pulled an Oedipus and
married his own mother). This couple are surrounded in the top and
bottom registers by all their sixteen children, in each case Wingfield
quarters (1) Bosville and (2) quarterly, Goushell and the chequy coat.
One thing I do not recognize is the coroneted lozenge hovering above the
children in the lower register.

Now, the father of the Sir John who m. Eliz. FitzLewis was Sir Robert
(d. 1431), who married Elizabeth, dau. of Sir Robert Gousell by
Elizabeth FitzAlan/Arundel (go to it, Doug). His marriage is shown by a
simple impalement of plain arms (Wingfield, Gousell) but in the central
panel and later there is an earlier Wingfield quarter--that of Boville
of Letheringham, quarterly or and sable, borne by son Sir John and all
his children. That's OK, since showing quarterings is optional.
Similarly Gousell is shown here plain (barry of six, or and gules; a
canton ermine) without the quartered chequy arms that appear in each
member of the next generation. Elizabeth Gousell was an heiress, so
this is OK.

So this would suggest the picture was intended to celebrate the
immediate progeny of the FitzLewis marriage, since it depicts all the
children who married as married, with their spousal impalements.
However, the other element is the right-hand panel of the central
register, the brother of the groom, Sir Henry W (d. 1493), who was
married to Elizabeth Rokes. There is a plain impalement shown
(Wingfield and Rokes) but no other quarterings. And below those arms
are three other plain impalings which actually indicate the senior line
of descent of a branch of the family from this Sir Henry: the next after
Wingfield impaling Rokes is Wingfield impaling Quarles (for Sir Robert
W. of Upton, Northants, d. 1576; m. Margerie Quarles); then for their
son Sir Robert, d. 1580, m. Elizabeth Cecil; then for their son Sir
Robert (d. 1610), m. Prudence Croke. This brings us down to the early
17th century, when I think this was painted.

So, the Oedipal heraldic error in the middle achievement aside, this is
pretty clear. My take on the dual focus is that it is perhaps a copy or
adaptation of an earlier work focusing only on the Wingfield-FitzLewis
marriage, which was itself made in at the beginning of the seventeenth
century for a member of the Upton branch. It is also possible that the
Upton branch's arms were simply painted over the earlier composition
over the course of three generations in the sixteenth century.

The question remains about what is the chequy coat quartered by the
Gousell heiress. It is not Arundel (which was a lion rampant), though
she was an heraldic heiress of that coat.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 03:37:02

In a message dated 2/14/07 6:16:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

<< Now, the father of the Sir John who m. Eliz. FitzLewis was Sir Robert
(d. 1431), who married Elizabeth, dau. of Sir Robert Gousell by
Elizabeth FitzAlan/Arundel (go to it, Doug). >>

Robert rather than dying in 1431, is supposed to have died
Between 6 Oct 1452 and 21 Nov 1454
per AR8

Will

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 15 feb 2007 03:40:57

In article <mailman.3374.1171499432.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Kelly Leighton" <kleigh1@cox.net> wrote:

Again, my questions to the group center not around the genealogical
connections of the participants, (the Wingfields have been researched fairly
well, and despite my typo on the Howard family, I do have the pedigree
accurately annotated here in RI) but on the logic of which shields were
displayed by the latter two generations. I believe I have an idea of what
"should" be on the respective shields, and am questioning why, in this case,
that does not appear to be what is shown. Either I am mistaken in my
understanding, or the Wingfield's were playing pretty fast and loose with
their arms for some purpose which we may not yet understand.

Just to boil down my long other post: the Wingfields do properly quarter
and impale everything here except for one error in the central (!)
achievement. The earliest Wingfield here was entitled to quarter
Boville with Wingfield, though that is not mandatory and his own coat is
shown plain. He married the Gousell heiress, whose own arms are
represented as Gousell, quartering (---), which is the chequy coat.
Their son and grandchildren are shown with Wingfield quartering both
Bosville and a grand quartering of Gousell and the chequy coat, which is
appropriate as long as the chuquy coat is legitimately included (they
cannot be faulted for OMITTING some arms, e.g. Arundel). The branch
from Sir Henry who are shown plain were (by modern custom at least) also
entitled to the Boville and Gousell quarterings, but their display was
never mandatory. It was also not strictly necessary to keep Gousell and
the chequy coat (whatever it is) together as a grand quartering, but
also there was little uniformity about this in Tudor-Stuart times.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 15 feb 2007 03:43:56

In article <mailman.3385.1171506913.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/14/07 6:16:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

Now, the father of the Sir John who m. Eliz. FitzLewis was Sir Robert
(d. 1431), who married Elizabeth, dau. of Sir Robert Gousell by
Elizabeth FitzAlan/Arundel (go to it, Doug).

Robert rather than dying in 1431, is supposed to have died
Between 6 Oct 1452 and 21 Nov 1454 per AR8

Right. The death date's an error in Powerscourt's _Muniments_. I didn't
check the other death dates, but only went by them to distinguish the
generations.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Tony Ingham

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 15 feb 2007 05:13:22

Hello MM,

The following data on the descent of the Baskerville family of Eardisley
comes from my files:


Modified Register for Walter de BASKERVILE knight
First Generation

Mason, M., (Ed), Eardisley: its houses and their residents, Eardisley
History Group, Eardisley July
2005.

The 1080s to the 1270s: in the time of the Norman, Angevin and early
Plantagenet dynasties - On
the frontline of Norman occupation, Welsh resistance and the Baron's Wars

Robinson considered that the 'domus defensibilis' described in 1087
"probably partook more the
character of a Saxon earth and timber work than of a Norman fortalice
.... It seems probable that it
was converted into a regular fortress as early as the twelfth century"
[52]. By the 1190s is was
recognised that the Lordship of Eardisley (the area under control of the
Lord of the Manor of
Eardisley) was geographically part of Herefordshire, but politically
part of the Marcher Lordships
[Page: 360-361]. The manor was of some importance by this time, and in
1225 Sir Walter de
Baskerville was granted a right to hold a fair at the site on the feast
day of St. Mary Magdalene
[Watkins: 35]. In 1240 the manor of Eardisley passed to the de Bohuns
[Page: 363]. In 1251
Humphrey de Bohun had granted the manor of 'Irdesle' to Sir Walter de
Baskerville, although the
family claimed at that time that they had held it since the marriage of
Sir Ralph de Baskerville to
Sybil, the heiress of Adam de Port and a grand-daughter through her
mother of Milo Fitzwalter, Earl
of Hereford [Richardson: 54]. Watkins states that Sybil le Port was the
first wife of Robert de
Baskerville, and that he obtained the manor through this marriage [34].
This would date their
original occupation to the the early 1100s, but it must be remembered
that these claims were being
made some two centuries after the event. Sir Ralph is recorded holding
lands under Adam de Port by
inheritance from the time of Henry I (1100-1135); and that upon Sir
Ralph's murder in
Northamptonshire about 1194 one son, Roger, succeeded him at Eardisley
and another, Thomas, at
Pickthorn, their Shopshire manor [Richardson: 54].

During the ongoing conflict between Prince Llywelyn ap Ionwerth of
Gwynedd and Henry III, the
Welsh defeated Roger de Mortimer, the King's chief supporter, and drove
him from Wigmore Castle,
and just after Christmas 1262 plundered the manors of the kings
supporters, including Eardisley and
Weobley [Richardson: 52-53; Page: 364]. Prince Edward took charge of the
Royal forces, and drove
Llywelyn ap Ionwerth back into Wales, but then conflict broke out with
some of the barons and one
of Llywelyn ap Ionwerth's allies, the rebel Earl of Leicester, captured
the Bishop of Hereford (one of
Henry's allies) and held him in captivity in Eardisley Castle [Page:
365]. The Sheriff of Gloucester was
also seized and held in Eardisley Castle with the bishop [Richardson:
53]. Watkins states that Sir
Walter de Baskerville had followed his liege-lord Sir Humphrey de Bohun
in his support for the rebel
barons, and after their failure at the Battle of Evesham in 1265 he had
fled to France with other
rebels.

The collapse of the barons left the county in a lawless state, and
raiders plundered the countryside
[Page: 365]. It seems that the Baskerville's were not living in the
castle when it fell to Llywelyn ap
Ionwerth, although it remained the property of Humphrey de Bohun their
leige-lord. De Bohun was
one of the rebel barons, and when Edward I ascended the throne in 1272
he took it from the de
Bohuns and gave it to Roger de Clifford, who had been a staunch
supporter of the royal cause
[Richardson: 53]. In 1274 Edward I pardoned Sir Walter Baskerville and
other rebels [Watkins: 35],
and the Baskervilles appear to have soon been back in the castle.
Although the castle suffered some
destruction by the Welsh, it had remained secure enough to imprison the
Bishop and Sheriff for
some time. However, when the Baskervilles returned they were probably
engaged in some sort of
rebuilding project for their new liege-lord, especially as the general
lawlessness of the period
required even stronger defences. A few years later the de Bohuns were
again supporting the king,
and regained the lordship of Eardisley [Richardson: 53]. Sir Walter died
in 1284 and, having no sons,
the manor was inherited by his brother Sir Richard.

During all the turmoil of establishing a presence on the frontier the
Baskervilles had made several
strategic marriages. Robert de Baskerville, lord of the manor in 1087,
had married firstly the Norman
Sybil, daughter of Adam le Port; then the Welsh Agnes, daughter of
Galfred Rees [Watkins: 40],
otherwise known as Agnes, the heiress of Nesta, the daughter of Rhys ap
Gruffydd, Prince of South

Wales [Erwin]; Robert's son Sir Ralph married the daughter of Drogo,
Lord of Clifford Castle; his son
Sir Robert married the daughter of Sir Rothes le Gros [the Fat], Lord of
Orcop; and his son or
grandson Sir Walter married the daughter of the Earl of Shropshire
[Watkins: 40]. These marriages
established a network of dynastic alliances of both Norman and Welsh
families, and brought to the
Baskervilles several new manors, such as Orcop.

A timber and earth fortified house was in existence by 1087 with a
Baskerville mesne-lord. The
original source of their lordship was is not clearly recorded, although
it soon became a fief of the de
Bohuns as Earls of Hereford. Sometime in the 1260s, during Llywelyn ap
Ionwerth's Welsh invasions
and then the Baron's Wars, the fortified house was attacked and
plundered, then used as a jail, and
the Baskervilles dispersed with the mesne-lord going into exile until
pardoned by a new king,
allowing the family to return and rebuild the castle. As they
consolidated their physcial presence in
the Marches by the rebuilding of the castle, they also consolidated
their social presence through
intermarriages with other Marcher families, Welsh and Norman. By the
time the Plantagenets had
consolidated their hold on the throne under Edward I the Baskervilles
were permanently settled at
Eardisley.

The 1280s to 1485: in the times of the Plantagenet dynasty -
Consolidation as the chief residence of
the Baskervilles

Sir Walter de Baskerville held a licence from the Bishop of Hereford in
1272 "to hold divine service in
an oratory [a chapel] built within the walls of the Castle", by which
time Eardisley had become the
chief residence of the family. Sir Richard de Baskerville was summoned
to Parliament in 1297 as Lord
of Eardisley and Orcop, and of Stretton Sugwas. In 1317 the various
Baskerville manors were divided
amongst several heirs [Watkins: 37-38]. A later Sir Richard took the
side of his de Bohun liege-lord
again in a rebellion against the Crown, but was pardoned in 1321, and
the following year he divided
his 8 manors, including Eardisley, among his grandsons as his son had
predeceased him [Watkins:
38]. In 1372 the Earldom of Hereford became extinct, and the lordship of
Eardisley passed back to
the Crown, with the king becoming the liege-lord. When Sir Richard de
Baskerville died in 1375 a jury
found that he held the castle from the de Bohuns. By this time the
Baskerville's had been living at
the castle site for nearly 200 years [Richardson: 53-54]. During the
time the Baskervilles had married
into other Norman families such as Touchet, Brugge, Poyntz and de Caux,
or Welsh families such as
Rhys/Rees and Montgomery.


Walter had the following children:

2 M i. Walter de BASKERVILE knight of Eardisley died
before 3 Sep 1282.

Knights of Edward I.
BASKERVILE, Walter de. Angent ung chevron et trois torteaux de
goules (Glover).
Son and heir of Walter de Baskervile, deceased, who held Orcop manor,
Hereford, 24 May 1244 (Inq.). Rebel and enemy of King. His lands at
Erdesley,
Grensted, Horcopp, and Cumbe granted to Roger de Clifford, 26 Oct 1265
(Cart. R.).
Pardon of outlawry for death of Henry de Almaine, wherewith he was charged,
12 Sep 1274 (P.R.). Sheriff of Hereford is to deliver Erdeslegh Castle
to Roger de
Clifford to hold of Walter de Bakesvile for life 25 Jun 1278 (P.R.).
Pardon to Ivor
fil. Griffin fil. Griffin of trespasses against Walter de Baskervile 9
Apr 1282 (C.R.).
Dead 3 Sep 1282 (F.R.).

A History of the County of Essex: Volume 4: Ongar Hundred (1956), pp. 59-60.
Greenstead: Manor.
The descent of the tenancy in demesne between about 1170 and about
1250 is
obscure. It is possible that the Marcy family continued as tenants for
part of this
time. (fn. 36) By about 1250, however, the tenant was Walter de
Baskerville. (fn.
37) He was the son of Walter de Baskerville (d. 1244) of Orcop
(Herefs.). (fn. 38)
He fought against the king in the Barons' Wars and in 1265 his lands at
Orcop,
Greenstead, and elsewhere were granted to Roger de Clifford. (fn. 39)
Baskerville
subsequently regained possession and in 1279 granted Greenstead to Roger
de la
Hay in exchange for land in Great Cowarne (Herefs.). (fn. 40)
Footnote:
37 E.A.T. n.s. xviii, 18.
38 C. Moor, Knights of Edw. I (Harl. Soc.), i, 50; W. H. Cooke,
Hist. Hereford
(1892), 187.
39 C. Moor, ibid.
40 Feet of F. Essex, ii, 24.

Note: Great Cowarne was part of the dower given to his widow Sybil and
she
brought it to her second husband John de Acton of Iron Acton,
Gloucestershire.


Walter married Sybil CORBET daughter of Thomas CORBET of Caus
Shropshire and Isabel de VALLETORT. Sybil was living in 1316.

1312 Calendar of Close Rolls 6 Edward II. Nov. 26. Windsor p.495.
To Roger de Wellesworth, escheator this side Trent. Order not to
intermeddle
further with the manors of Penyton and Yanesore, a fourth of the manor of
Couerne, and the lands that John de Acton, deceased, and his wife Sibyl
held in
the manor of Ceddre. As it appears by inquisition that the said John and
Sibyl were
jointly enfeoffed of certain lands in Ceddre, and that she continued her
seisin
thereof jointly with her husband until his death, and that the said
John, by fine
levied in the king's court, gave the manor of Penyton to William de la
Mere in fee,
who gave it to the said John for life with remainder to the said Sibyl
for her life,
with remainder to Joan Randolf, daughter of the said John, for her life,
with
reversion to the right heirs of the said John, and that the said John
and Sibyl held
at his death the manor of Yanesore and a fourth of the manor of Couerne
as her
dower of her late husband Walter de Baskervill, and that the lands in
Ceddre are
held of the bishop of Bath and the manor of Penyton of John Neirnut. He
is to
restore to Sibyl any issues received from the same.

Her marriage portion was the manor of Cheddar in Somersetshire. A
capital
messuage, 40 acres of arable, 10 acres of meadow, a water-mill, rents,
&c, held
jointly with her husband, of the gift of William de Ebroye[is].

She was named in the will of Godfrey Giffard, bishop of Worcester,
dated at
Kempsey by Worcester, 13 September 1301, as 'domine Sibille de Acton,
nepti
mee.'

HISTORY OF THE COMMONERS 1826 Note: This data is incorrect**
Volume 3.
Section: Baskerville, of Rockley House:
Sir Walter de Baskerville, Lord of Combe (died c. 1318), married
1297, Sibill, the
daughter of Peter of Caus and Joan de Montfichet.
Shown previously here as Baskerville of Clyro Court: Sir Walter de
Baskerville,
Lord of Coombe who married 26 E I (1297) Sibill daughter of Peter Corbet
of Caus,
and died about 12 E 2 (1318) was survived by his son Sir Richard de
Baskerville of
Erdesley, M.P. for the county of Hereford in 1347. Married 14 E 2 (1320)
Jane
daughter of Sir Richard Poyns/Poynings kt and was succeeded by his son. (BK:
4789)

+ 3 M ii. Richard de BASKERVILE knight .

Second Generation
3. Richard de BASKERVILE knight (Walter).

Note: This data is incorrect**

Sir Richard, who became lord of Eardisley and High Sheriff of Hereford,
was M.P., for the County of
Herefordshire, in which office the family served in eleven Parliaments
during the next 400 years.
They also served the Office of High Sheriff for the County twenty-one
times. Richard and was
succeeded by his son Walter Baskerville (died 1319) who was called lord
of Combe. His wife Sibella
[or Sybil] daughter of Peter of Caux, and their son (died 1342),
grandson (died 1373) and great,
grand son (died 1394) all named Richard, were Knighted. The last son,
Sir John of Eardisley (died
1403). Married Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of John Brugge of Letton
and Stanton. They had
issue, Sir John (died 1455) who also was called Knight of Combe, when
quite a young boy followed
King Henry to the Battle of Agincourt.14l5 AD He married Elizabeth,
daughter of John Touchet, Lord
Audley. His brother Ralph Baskerville married Anne, daughter and heiress
of Sir John Blacket of
Icomb, whose daughter, Jane became the wife of Symon Milbourne and
mother to thirteen children!


Richard had the following children:

4 M i. Walter de BASKERVILE knight .

Note: This data is incorrect**

Sir Richard, who became lord of Eardisley and High Sheriff of
Hereford, was M.P.,
for the County of Herefordshire, in which office the family served in
eleven
Parliaments during the next 400 years. They also served the Office of
High Sheriff
for the County twenty-one times. Richard and was succeeded by his son
Walter
Baskerville (died 1319) who was called lord of Combe. His wife Sibella
[or Sybil]
daughter of Peter of Caux, and their son (died 1342), grandson (died
1373) and
great, grand son (died 1394) all named Richard, were Knighted. The last
son, Sir
John of Eardisley (died 1403). Married Elizabeth, daughter and heiress
of John
Brugge of Letton and Stanton. They had issue, Sir John (died 1455) who
also was
called Knight of Combe, when quite a young boy followed King Henry to
the Battle
of Agincourt.1415 AD He married Elizabeth, daughter of John Touchet,
Lord Audley.
His brother Ralph Baskerville married Anne, daughter and heiress of Sir
John
Blacket of Icomb, whose daughter, Jane became the wife of Symon
Milbourne and
mother to thirteen children!

The C.C.R. of 1312 shows that all the known pedigrees are faulty as far
as they relate
to Sir Walter de Baskerville (d.1282) and his wife Sybil Corbet. John de
Acton Sybil's
second husband died in 1312.

Whether Sir Walter had two daughters by a previous marriage is
problematical. If he did,
they were certainly not his heirs.

Richard, his younger brother was his heir as is seen below:
Knights of Edward I.
BASKERVILE, Sir Richard de, Kt. De argent a un cheveron de goules et
iii rondels de
azure (Parl.). Livery of Erdesley Cas. to Ric. de B., bro. h. of Walt.
de B., 6 Feb. 1290
(P.R.).

Hope the following is of some assistance,

Tony Ingham.


Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:
Thanks for the reference to the Woolhope Society article, Matthew Connolly.
I am a great admirer of their Transactions already, and look forward to
reading the Coplestone-Crow piece in vol.XLIII (1979) as soon as I can get back to
Hereford.
In the meantime, could you possibly help by giving us an abstract of the
author's main conclusions?
The line I have, as far as the reign of Edw II, derived from secondary
source such as Duncumb's Herefordshire, the Llyfr Baglan, and a splendid
manuscript volume of pedigrees in the HRO, goes thus:-
!. Sir Robert Baskerville
+ Agnes, d. of Galfred Rees of Wales
1.1 Sir Radulphus de B, lord of Eardisley temp. HII
+ d. of Drogo, Lord Clifford
1.1.1Sir Roger de B of Eardisley temp.
+ d. of Sir Rothes le Gros, lord of Orcop
1.1.1.1 Walter de B.
+ Susanna, d. of Sir Walter Crigdon
1.1.1.1.1 Robert B
1.1.1.1.2. Sir Walter de B
+ Sybil, d. of John Streaton
1.1.1.1.2.1 Joan, wife of Roger, Lord Clifford
1.1.1.1.2.2 Sybil, wife of Hugh de Kinnersley
1.1.1.1.3. Richard B., sheriff of Hereford 8 & 9 Edw II
+ d. of Solers, kt. (whence the continuing line of Eardisley
Baskervilles, with marriages with Corbet, Poyns, Paveley and Everingham daughters)
1.1.1.1.4. George B, lord of Pickthorne, Salop (whence the Shropshire line,
and also that of Weston, Hds)
1.1.1.1.5. Another Robert- no known marriage issue

Camden, in his Britannia, refers thus to the family:-
"Erdsley, where the ancient familie of the Baskervills have long inhabited,
which bred in ancient time so many worthy knights, who deduce their pedigree
from a neice [sic] of Dame Gunora that most famous Lady in Normandy, and long
ago flourished in this county and Shropshire adjoyning": I take the quote
from
_http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/cambrit/contents.html_
(http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/camb ... tents.html)
where the University of Birmingham has reproduced Camden's book.

There are three intriguing Baskerviiles recorded in the Oxford DNB:
1. Thomas, son of Henry B and Ann Ratford, married to Mary, d. of Thomas
Throckmorton
(general of the fleet, buried Drake at sea), d. 1597
2. His son Hannibal, antiquary, 5 Apr 1597- March 1668
3. Hannibal's son Thomas, topographer, 1630-1700

I have not been able to attach these exciting Baskervilles to any pedigree
that I have seen.

So far as concerns Thomas the alderman of London, I have since replying to
Louise Staley's recent post had a look at the Shropshire Visitation for 1623
(Treswell, page 387), which can be seen on line if one gets into google books
via proxify.

A remarkable feature of the pedigree presented on this and the next page,
which gives an entirely conventional account of the Baskerville descent from
Sir James and his wife Elizabeth Touchet down to James, husband of Elizabeth
"Braynton" of Stretton, Salop, is that it shows Humphrey the alderman as fifth
son of this James and Elizabeth, and married to Joanna Packington, with the
six daughters Elizabeth Hungate, Angelica Maynard, Martha May, Anna Ducket,
Mary Gonston and Sarah Owen, wife of Thomas Owen, the well-known judge of the
King's Bench who is buried in Westminster Abbey, and whose brief biography
(describing him as the husband of Sarah, daughter of Humphrey Baskerville) is
in the Oxford DNB.
The same article gives a biography of his son Sir Roger Owen (1572-1617).
Both Thomas Owen and his son Roger were graduates of Christ Church, Oxford,
and Treasurers of Lincoln's Inn- which, as my friends will realise, makes me
predisposed to trust them and their close kin as reliable authorities on
genealogical matters.
The Shropshire pedigree is vouched for by Thomas Owen's youngest (5th) son
Sir William Owen, sheriff of Shropshire at the time of the visitation, but
who was living before the end of the 16th century, not long after the death of
his (in my present belief) grandfather Humphrey the Alderman, whose Will is
preserved at PROB 11/47, proved in 1564.

I am therefore finding myself driven towards accepting the very proposition
which I had rejected in my earlier posts, namely that Humphrey the alderman
was indeed a son of James Baskerville and Elizabeth Breynton.

As a result of this further effort I am convinced that the pedigrees on
which I relied in my earlier response to Louise Staley are unreliable. We must I
think look elsewhere for a credible ancestry for the Baskervilles of Aberedw,
and must welcome the alderman as a member of the main Baskerville of
Eardisley line.
MM




MM

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Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 15 feb 2007 06:09:12

I wrote:

One thing I do not recognize is the coroneted lozenge hovering above the
children in the lower register.

Kelly asked further about this offline. It seems like it might stand
for Sir Richard Wingfield's wife's sister, Queen Elizabeth Woodville,
but it's odd as it's England within a bordure, impaling Woodville, all
in a lozenge, surmounted by a crown. Is this common, to show a queen's
arms impaled within a lozenge like this? Or do they technically stand
for an unmarried daughter of this marriage, who must be princess Bridget
(according to ES, a nun at Dartford; d. 1517)?

And since Sir Richard (who is just below the lozenge) married a
Woodville, why do his arms impale something else (I can't read the
caption under him)? I realize I lack the page of pedigrees in my xerox
of Powerscourt's _Muniments_ that has this Sir Richard and some of his
siblings (these sixteen siblings ran to four folio pages of pedigree
charts)

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 06:46:02

In a message dated 2/14/2007 9:10:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

It seems like it might stand
for Sir Richard Wingfield's wife's sister, Queen Elizabeth Woodville,
but it's odd as it's England within a bordure, impaling Woodville, all
in a lozenge, surmounted by a crown.


Since this is above the children, why would it stand for a sister-in-law?

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 15 feb 2007 08:31:57

On 15 Feb, 00:42, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Will,

      I have the following to fill in some of the gaps you show for
the great-grandparents of Reginald le Cheyne.  One of the primary
additions is due to his paternal grandmother (NN in your post) having
been Mary de Moravia (als de Moray), sister and coheiress of Freskin
de Moravia of Duffus (her parents Walter de Moravia and Euphemia of
Ross appear below).  There is the question as to his maternal
grandmother: I hold she was Joanna de Menteith, 2nd wife of Malise,
Earl of Strathearn.  This would at least provide a near explanation
for Joanna's daughter Helen of Strathearn (wife successively of
Reginald le Cheyne, the father, and of Sir David de Graham) being
named for Helen de Menteith, sister of Joanna and wife of Sir Colin
Campbell of Lochow (d. bef May 1343).

      Unfortunately, I think there are added gaps in Muriel Keith's
ancestry (see below).  As to either additions proposed to your tables
below, please advise of any noted conflicts, or what documentation
might indicate any error noted.

      Cheers,

                                 John

I have gaps in both ancestries, but ferociously in that of Reginald.
For Muriel Keith, her great-grandparents I show
1 William de Keith d bef 1293
2 Barbara Seton

 <<<<<<<<  This should be "NN" .

          I'm not aware of any documentation supporting the
          identification of this spouse as Barbara Seton.
          If you have noted any, please advise.

3 Alexander de Synton
4 NN
5 Alexander of /Fraser/ Chamberlain of Scotland d 3 Aug 1332
6 Mary de Brus, Baroness /Fraser/

 This should be "NN" .

           Sir Alexander Fraser married Mary Bruce (or de Brus),
           and had a son John identified as 'nepos' of Robert
           _the_Bruce.  This son was a younger John, however, and
           not his heir.  John Fraser, later lord of Aboyne, was
           the son of a first marriage (this wife unknown; I have
           this on the authority of Andrew MacEwen).

7 NN Fraser

 This would indicate that John Fraser of Aboyne's
            wife was allegedly a Fraser by birth?   What would
            the basis for this be?

For Reginald le Cheney it's sparse  [NOTE ADDITIONS BELOW]
1 NN Cheney

  2 NN
  3 Walter de Moravia (son of Hugh de Moravia, and Annabela of Fife)
  4 Euphemia of Ross (dau. of Fearchar, 1st Earl of Ross and NN de
Brus)> 5 Malise, 6th Earl of /Strathearn/ bef 1281- d 1312/3
6 Agnes NN possibly Comyn d aft 1309

  7 Sir John de Menteith (son of Walter Stewart, E of Menteith and
Mary of Menteith)
  8 NN

=======================================================================
On Feb 14, 6:00 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:



In a message dated 2/14/07 3:30:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, ther...@aol.com
writes:

  The consanguinity between Muriel Keith and Reginald le Cheyne -
 known to have been a great-grandson of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d.
 1312) - is the sole evidence (if indirect) that these two individuals
 had at least one ancestor/ancestress in common.

I have gaps in both ancestries, but ferociously in that of Reginald.
For Muriel Keith, her great-grandparents I show
1 William de Keith d bef 1293
2 Barbara Seton
3 Alexander de Synton
4 NN
5 Alexander of /Fraser/ Chamberlain of Scotland d 3 Aug 1332
6 Mary de Brus, Baroness /Fraser/
7 NN Fraser
8 NN

For Reginald le Cheney it's sparse
1 NN Cheney , 2 NN, 3 NN, 4 NN
5 Malise, 6th Earl of /Strathearn/ bef 1281- d 1312/3
6 Agnes NN possibly Comyn d aft 1309
7 and 8 NN

Will Johnson- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi John,

Thank you for that. At least you managed to unravel my chart a bit. I
have never tried this numbering system so please forgive me if I am
breaking convention.

1 Andrew de Keith b.c1369 d.c1450, 2nd of Inverugie

Parents
2 Sir John de Keth b.c1328 dc1400, 1st of Inverugie
married c 1369
3 Marion le Chien

Paternal Grandparents
4 Sir Edward de Keth d.17-Oct-1346
5 ? le Chien

Maternal Grandparents
6 Reginald (Roland) le Chien, 4th of Inverugie
7 Helen of Strathern

Paternal Great Grandparents
8 Sir Edward de Keth b.c1265
9 Isabel de Sytoun

10 Francis (Freskin)le Chien?
11 Isabel de Cuming

Maternal Great Grandparents

12 Reginald (Roland) le Chien, 3rd of Inverugie
13 Mary de Moray (Moravia)

14 Malise, 7th Earl of Strathern
15 Matida, of Orkney & Caithness

Paternal Great Great Grandparents

16NN
17NN
18 Reginald (Roland) le Chien, 3rd of Inverugie
19 Mary de Moray (Moravia)
20 NN
21 NN
22 NN
23 NN

Maternal Great Great Grandparents

24 Reginald le Chen, 2nd of Inverugie
25 dau of William Comyn

26 Freskin of Moravia, of Duffus & Strabrok
27 Johanna, Lady of Strathnivar

28 Malise, 6th Earl of Strathern
29 dau of William Comyn

30 Magnus, Earl of Orkney & Caithness
31 NN

Again I am sorry if this is not the correct way of doing it. I jus did
it in the simplest way so that I could understand it.

Thanks,

Grothenwell






6

Gjest

Re: Parentage of Henry Denton of Maryland

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 09:11:03

Wills proved PCC 1553
Thomas Vachell the elder, Colley Berks
died at London 25 Tashe

Middlesex: - Calendar to the Sessions Records, 1612-1614 Additional
Baptisms. Middlesex Sessions Records Sessions Roll. County: Middlesex
Country: England John Vaughan alias Parry of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields,
yeoman, and Gratius Johnson of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, yeoman, for breaking
into the house of Sir Thomas Vachell, Knight, at the same, about twelve o'clock
at night, putting to fright Elizabeth Hickman and Elizabeth Graye, and
stealing a petticoat of crimson velvet laced with silver laces worth £40, a piece
of cambric worth 20s., a cipres scarf embroidered with silver, and a silver
fringe worth 40s., a pair of silk stockings worth 30s., a bundle of silver
lace worth 20s., two pairs of gloves worth 6s., two "tente worke" purses worth
40s., two pieces of waistcoats wrought with gold worth 40s., a pair of velvet
mittens laced with gold lace worth 50s., a dress with buttons of goldsmiths'
work, diamonds, rubies, and pearls, worth £50, a gold ring with a diamond
worth £50, a "rebatoe" set with pearls worth 20s., a piece of holland worth £4,
a shirt worth 3s., a sheet worth 8s., a beaver hat with a band worth 10s., a
coif worth 10s., a fan of feathers worth 20s., one ell of holland worth 5s.,
two pillowbeers worth 6s. and £100 in money belonging to the said Sir Thomas
Vachell; and of Samuel Tompson of Whitechapel, yeoman, for receiving and
helping the said John and Gratius at the same, after the said felony.


Kent: Canterbury - Marriage Licence allegations, Dean of Westminster,
1558-1699 and Vicar-General of the Archbishop of Canterbury, 1660 to 1679
Marriage Allegations in the Registry of the Vicar=General of the Archbishop of
Canterbury. 1663. County: Kent Country: England 23 Jul 1663 Thomas
Vachell, of Gray's Inn, Esq., Bachr, 21 & upwards, & Anne Tayleur, of New Windsor,
Berks, Spr, about 20; consent of father William Tayleur, Esq.; at St
Andrew's, Holborn, or New Windsor or St Mary's in Reading, co. Berks.

_http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=amandataylor&id=I12927_
(http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi ... &id=I12927)
Citing David Nash Ford's Landed Gentry of Berkshire at
_www.berkshirehistory.com_ (http://www.berkshirehistory.com)
States Thomas Vachell son of Thomas Vachell and Margaret Meverell, married
Anne Taylor


British Roots of Maryland Families
_http://content.ancestry.com/browse/bookview.aspx?dbid=49095&iid=FLHG_BritishR
oots-0197&desc=Thomas+Vachell&rc=280%2c1283%2c457%2c1323%3b108%2c1766%2c353%2c
1806%3b390%2c1825%2c567%2c1863%3b583%2c1825%2c751%2c1863%3b134%2c1885%2c367%2c
1924%3b110%2c1959%2c356%2c1998%3b1074%2c1960%2c1251%2c1997%3b730%2c2076%2c961%
2c2115%3b737%2c2153%2c912%2c2191%3b111%2c2690%2c358%2c2729%3b1067%2c2691%2c124
4%2c2728%3b321%2c2808%2c499%2c2845%3b121%2c2983%2c300%2c3019_
(http://content.ancestry.com/browse/book ... 197&desc=T
homas+Vachell&rc=280,1283,457,1323;108,1766,353,1806;390,1825,567,1863;583,182
5,751,1863;134,1885,367,1924;110,1959,356,1998;1074,1960,1251,1997;730,2076,96
1,2115;737,2153,912,2191;111,2690,358,2729;1067,2691,1244,2728;321,2808,499,28
45;121,2983,300,3019)

has this Denton line including the Vachell Denton you mentioned.
They there state that Vachell married Anne Brice but had NO surviving
children.

Matthew Connolly

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLES

Legg inn av Matthew Connolly » 15 feb 2007 09:27:33

On Feb 14, 7:56 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Thanks for the reference to the Woolhope Society article, Matthew Connolly.
I am a great admirer of their Transactions already, and look forward to
reading the Coplestone-Crow piece in vol.XLIII (1979) as soon as I can get back to
Hereford.
In the meantime, could you possibly help by giving us an abstract of the
author's main conclusions?
The line I have, as far as the reign of Edw II, derived from secondary
source such as Duncumb's Herefordshire, the Llyfr Baglan, and a splendid
manuscript volume of pedigrees in the HRO, goes thus:-
!. Sir Robert Baskerville
+ Agnes, d. of Galfred Rees of Wales
1.1 Sir Radulphus de B, lord of Eardisley temp. HII
+ d. of Drogo, Lord Clifford
1.1.1Sir Roger de B of Eardisley temp.
+ d. of Sir Rothes le Gros, lord of Orcop
1.1.1.1 Walter de B.
+ Susanna, d. of Sir Walter Crigdon
1.1.1.1.1 Robert B
1.1.1.1.2. Sir Walter de B
+ Sybil, d. of John Streaton
1.1.1.1.2.1 Joan, wife of Roger, Lord Clifford
1.1.1.1.2.2 Sybil, wife of Hugh de Kinnersley
1.1.1.1.3. Richard B., sheriff of Hereford 8 & 9 Edw II
+ d. of Solers, kt. (whence the continuing line of Eardisley
Baskervilles, with marriages with Corbet, Poyns, Paveley and Everingham daughters)
1.1.1.1.4. George B, lord of Pickthorne, Salop (whence the Shropshire line,
and also that of Weston, Hds)
1.1.1.1.5. Another Robert- no known marriage issue


Using the same notation, this is a summary of a chart pedigree
accompanying the article. "Note: Familial relationship is not certain
in every case and the table should be read accordingly." NB also that
I've transcribed sons in the order they appear from right to left in
the chart, but this does not necessarily represent the true birth
order (partly because that may not be known, and partly perhaps the
way the tree was laid out to fit on the page!)

1.Robert fl.1086 &1109, of Eardisley etc.
1.1.Roger fl.1127 of Eardisley, Bredwardine & Pencelli
1.1.1.Ralph d.1148/9=dau drew fitzPons of Clifford?
1.1.1.1.Robert d.1176 of Eardisley=Juliana (dau Nicholas de Stafford?)
1.1.1.1.1.Ralph d.c.June 1186
1.1.1.1.1.1.Walter d.1212=Isolda dau Walter Biset
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.Walter d.1244=Susanna sis Andrew de Cancell
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.Walter d.1282=Sibyl dau John Streaton
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.Johanna=Roger de Clifford
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.Sibyl=Hugh de Kinnersley
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.Richard fl.1323=Phillipa de Solers [with issue]
1.1.1.2.Walter of Orcop dsp=Emma de St Leger, widow of Henry de
Longchamps of Wilton
1.1.1.3.Roger fl.1193-1208
1.1.1.4.Gilbert fl.1150-5
1.1.1.5.Ralph d.1190/1 of Bredwardine & Pencelli=Nest ferch Gruffydd d.
1220
1.1.1.5.1.Thomas d.1241 of Bredwardine
1.1.1.5.1.1.Roger d.1244=Anastasia
1.1.1.5.1.1.1.Walter d.1286
1.1.1.5.1.1.1.1.Roger 1262-1339=Johanna [issue]
1.1.1.5.2.Robert (of Breconshire)=Elisent
1.1.1.5.2.1.James, a monk
1.1.1.5.3.Ralph of Bredwardine & Pencelli d.1210=Sibyl dau Adam de
Port
1.1.1.5.3.1.Alice=Robert le Wafre fl.1235-48
1.1.1.5.3.1.1.Robert le Wafre d.c.1275
1.1.1.5.3.1.1.1.Lucia=Roger de Mortimer (of Chirk) d.1300 [issue]
1.1.1.5.3.1.1.2.dau.=Miles Pichard (of Scethrog) fl.1299 [issue]
1.1.1.5.3.1.1.3.dau.=Roger ap Ieuan (of Pencelli) fl.1299 [issue]
1.1.1.5.3.2.(dau.)=(Roger de Radnor fl.c.1220)
1.1.1.5.3.3.Agnes=Roger Devereux fl.1255
1.1.1.5.3.3.1.Robert Devereux fl.1243
1.1.1.5.3.3.1.1.Robert Devereux fl.1316 [issue]
1.1.1.5.4.Matilda of weston and Woodbury=(Roger?) le Bret [issue]
1.1.1.6.(dau.)=(Richard fitz Tancred)
2.Ralph fl.1086 of Combe Baskerville & Windrush (Gloucs.)

Chris Dickinson

Re: Parentage of Henry Denton of Maryland

Legg inn av Chris Dickinson » 15 feb 2007 13:03:56

Will Johnson wrote:

Middlesex: - Calendar to the Sessions Records, 1612-1614 Additional
Baptisms. Middlesex Sessions Records Sessions Roll. County: Middlesex
Country: England John Vaughan alias Parry of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields,
yeoman, and Gratius Johnson of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, yeoman, for
breaking
into the house of Sir Thomas Vachell, Knight, at the same, about twelve
o'clock
at night, putting to fright Elizabeth Hickman and Elizabeth Graye, and
stealing a petticoat of crimson velvet laced with silver laces worth £40,
snip



Hmm, an expensive petticoat.

I've just this morning been reading about the sale of a moiety of a tenement
of 7 acres in the 1620s - the sale price was £45, a yearly rent of 3s 7d.
So the petticoat was worth half a small farm.

Chris

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 15 feb 2007 14:29:11

In message of 15 Feb, Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
wrote:

<snip>

The central panel is the marriage of Sir John Wingfield (d. 1481) to
Elizabeth, dau. of Sir John Fitz Lewis and Anne (Montacute). The two
figures kneel at the center, and are surmounted by impalings of their
parents' arms in wreaths. The heraldic error is here, since Sir John's
father's achievement both quarters and impales Gousell (actually,
Gousell quartered with this chequy coat). This is an error. It is
obvious that the quartering of Gousell plus the chequy coat comes in at
that point, so it cannot be both quartered and impaled in the wreath
(unless, by implication, Sir John who d. 1481 had pulled an Oedipus and
married his own mother). This couple are surrounded in the top and
bottom registers by all their sixteen children, in each case Wingfield
quarters (1) Bosville and (2) quarterly, Goushell and the chequy coat.

I can see no explanation for the Gousell-chequy coat as a quartering for
Sir Robert Wingfield, so it has to be an error. I've had
a look for the chequy coat in "British Dictionary of Arms: medieval
Ordinary", ed Woodcock, Grant and Graham, pub Antiquarian Soc 1996 and it
appears in several places with no name as quartered by a Wingfield;
additionally it is given as the arms of the Garenne and Warenne
families. Elizabeth Goushill was descended from an heiress Alice de
Warenne but, as you totally correctly pointed out, she was not an
heiress of that line as she was not the heir of her mother. So I wonder
if this is another mistake of this picture that they wrongly quartered
the Warenne arms?

<snip>

The question remains about what is the chequy coat quartered by the
Gousell heiress.

Precisely.

The heraldic coats / cloaks for the couple in the centre of the picture
might actually have existed as some medieval wills mention such objects.
If they had survived to the time of the painting of the picture, this
might account for the Warenne error rather than being an error of the
artist.

But it is a marvellous armorial artwork.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 15 feb 2007 14:45:30

In article <mailman.3393.1171518234.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/14/2007 9:10:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

It seems like it might stand
for Sir Richard Wingfield's wife's sister, Queen Elizabeth Woodville,
but it's odd as it's England within a bordure, impaling Woodville, all
in a lozenge, surmounted by a crown.


Since this is above the children, why would it stand for a sister-in-law?

The child directly beneath this arms is Sir Richard Wingfield, whose
wife was Queen Elizabeth Woodville's sister--though why the impaled arms
on his achievement don't match Woodville, I don't know.

This achievement doesn't fit a strict pattern, but I suppose the royal
connection by marriage was thought important enough to include.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Kelly Leighton

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Kelly Leighton » 15 feb 2007 14:57:54

Nat, researchers,

Page 5 of this large book (my copy has eleven pages of pedigree charts) has:

Katherine, dau and eventual coheir of Richard Widville, Earl Rivers. Mar.
1st, to Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham. Mar., 2ndly, to Jasper, Duke of
Bedford.

Married

Sir Richard Wingfield of Kimbolton Castle, co, Huntington, 11th son;
Chancellor to the Dcuchy of Lancaster and a Privy Counciller. He was a great
favorite of Henry VIII.; had chief command under the Earl of Surrey of the
forces sent into France 14 Henry VIII., and for his services made K.G. He
was Lord Deputy of Calais. Died at Toldedo in Spain, being at that time
ambassador to that country, 22 July 17 Henry VIII., and was there bur. at
the Church of St. John de Pois.

Married

Bridget, dau. and heir of Sir John Wiltshire, Knt. Marr., 2ndly, to Sir
Nicholas Hervey. Mar., 3rdly, to Sir Robert Tirwhitt, Knt.

As you can see, there is no indication which of these two wives was first.

Take care,

Kelly in RI

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms


I wrote:

One thing I do not recognize is the coroneted lozenge hovering above the
children in the lower register.

Kelly asked further about this offline. It seems like it might stand
for Sir Richard Wingfield's wife's sister, Queen Elizabeth Woodville,
but it's odd as it's England within a bordure, impaling Woodville, all
in a lozenge, surmounted by a crown. Is this common, to show a queen's
arms impaled within a lozenge like this? Or do they technically stand
for an unmarried daughter of this marriage, who must be princess Bridget
(according to ES, a nun at Dartford; d. 1517)?

And since Sir Richard (who is just below the lozenge) married a
Woodville, why do his arms impale something else (I can't read the
caption under him)? I realize I lack the page of pedigrees in my xerox
of Powerscourt's _Muniments_ that has this Sir Richard and some of his
siblings (these sixteen siblings ran to four folio pages of pedigree
charts)

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net


Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 15 feb 2007 16:25:30

In article <mailman.3407.1171547902.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
"Kelly Leighton" <kleigh1@cox.net> wrote:

Nat, researchers,

Page 5 of this large book (my copy has eleven pages of pedigree charts) has:

Katherine, dau and eventual coheir of Richard Widville, Earl Rivers. Mar.
1st, to Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham. Mar., 2ndly, to Jasper, Duke of
Bedford.

Married

Sir Richard Wingfield of Kimbolton Castle, co, Huntington, 11th son;
Chancellor to the Dcuchy of Lancaster and a Privy Counciller. He was a great
favorite of Henry VIII.; had chief command under the Earl of Surrey of the
forces sent into France 14 Henry VIII., and for his services made K.G. He
was Lord Deputy of Calais. Died at Toldedo in Spain, being at that time
ambassador to that country, 22 July 17 Henry VIII., and was there bur. at
the Church of St. John de Pois.

Married

Bridget, dau. and heir of Sir John Wiltshire, Knt. Marr., 2ndly, to Sir
Nicholas Hervey. Mar., 3rdly, to Sir Robert Tirwhitt, Knt.

As you can see, there is no indication which of these two wives was first.

This is it: the impalement is for the Wilshire wife, while the lozenge
is for the Wydville sister-in-law (or rightly a Plantagenet niece).
Foster (quarto) shows a 14th-c Sir John Wilshire with 'per chevron gules
and argent, the chief crusilly patee'; here we have azure instead of
gules.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Brad Verity

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 15 feb 2007 20:10:57

From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net

Perhaps: this is a prominent heiress line. But why quarter it without
Arundel? Perhaps there was a piece of property which descended from
Alice de Warenne to the Wingfield marriage.

Dear Nat, Tim and Todd,

Elizabeth, Duchess of Norfolk (c.1370-1425), her twin sister Joan, Lady
Abergavenny (c.1370-1435), and their youngest sister Margaret, Dame Lenthall
(1383-1423), were all co-heiresses of their brother Thomas Fitzalan, 5th
Earl of Arundel (1381-1415). They inherited all of the Arundel properties
that were not entailed to the heir male, and I think the majority were from
the Warenne inheritance.

Elizabeth Goushill, Dame Wingfield and Joan Goushill, Lady Stanley, were
co-heiresses of their father's few lands (and even those were disputed by
the Goushill male heirs, first their uncle, then his son, IIRC). But their
issue did become co-heirs (with the issue of half-sisters Isabel Mowbray,
Lady Berkeley and Margaret Mowbray, Dame Howard) to Elizabeth, Duchess of
Norfolk, when the Mowbray line failed in the late 15th century. There were
properties that were divided amongst those heirs. I don't have a handy
list, but some may have originally been Warenne ones.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, -----------Brad

_________________________________________________________________
Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into
something more.
http://click4thecause.live.com/search/c ... ORM=WLMTAG

grothenwell

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av grothenwell » 15 feb 2007 21:01:58

On 15 Feb, 00:42, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Will,

      I have the following to fill in some of the gaps you show for
the great-grandparents of Reginald le Cheyne.  One of the primary
additions is due to his paternal grandmother (NN in your post) having
been Mary de Moravia (als de Moray), sister and coheiress of Freskin
de Moravia of Duffus (her parents Walter de Moravia and Euphemia of
Ross appear below).  There is the question as to his maternal
grandmother: I hold she was Joanna de Menteith, 2nd wife of Malise,
Earl of Strathearn.  This would at least provide a near explanation
for Joanna's daughter Helen of Strathearn (wife successively of
Reginald le Cheyne, the father, and of Sir David de Graham) being
named for Helen de Menteith, sister of Joanna and wife of Sir Colin
Campbell of Lochow (d. bef May 1343).

      Unfortunately, I think there are added gaps in Muriel Keith's
ancestry (see below).  As to either additions proposed to your tables
below, please advise of any noted conflicts, or what documentation
might indicate any error noted.

      Cheers,

                                 John

I have gaps in both ancestries, but ferociously in that of Reginald.
For Muriel Keith, her great-grandparents I show
1 William de Keith d bef 1293
2 Barbara Seton

 <<<<<<<<  This should be "NN" .

          I'm not aware of any documentation supporting the
          identification of this spouse as Barbara Seton.
          If you have noted any, please advise.

3 Alexander de Synton
4 NN
5 Alexander of /Fraser/ Chamberlain of Scotland d 3 Aug 1332
6 Mary de Brus, Baroness /Fraser/

 This should be "NN" .

           Sir Alexander Fraser married Mary Bruce (or de Brus),
           and had a son John identified as 'nepos' of Robert
           _the_Bruce.  This son was a younger John, however, and
           not his heir.  John Fraser, later lord of Aboyne, was
           the son of a first marriage (this wife unknown; I have
           this on the authority of Andrew MacEwen).

7 NN Fraser

 This would indicate that John Fraser of Aboyne's
            wife was allegedly a Fraser by birth?   What would
            the basis for this be?

For Reginald le Cheney it's sparse  [NOTE ADDITIONS BELOW]
1 NN Cheney

  2 NN
  3 Walter de Moravia (son of Hugh de Moravia, and Annabela of Fife)
  4 Euphemia of Ross (dau. of Fearchar, 1st Earl of Ross and NN de
Brus)> 5 Malise, 6th Earl of /Strathearn/ bef 1281- d 1312/3
6 Agnes NN possibly Comyn d aft 1309

  7 Sir John de Menteith (son of Walter Stewart, E of Menteith and
Mary of Menteith)
  8 NN

=======================================================================
On Feb 14, 6:00 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:



In a message dated 2/14/07 3:30:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, ther...@aol.com
writes:

  The consanguinity between Muriel Keith and Reginald le Cheyne -
 known to have been a great-grandson of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (d.
 1312) - is the sole evidence (if indirect) that these two individuals
 had at least one ancestor/ancestress in common.

I have gaps in both ancestries, but ferociously in that of Reginald.
For Muriel Keith, her great-grandparents I show
1 William de Keith d bef 1293
2 Barbara Seton
3 Alexander de Synton
4 NN
5 Alexander of /Fraser/ Chamberlain of Scotland d 3 Aug 1332
6 Mary de Brus, Baroness /Fraser/
7 NN Fraser
8 NN

For Reginald le Cheney it's sparse
1 NN Cheney , 2 NN, 3 NN, 4 NN
5 Malise, 6th Earl of /Strathearn/ bef 1281- d 1312/3
6 Agnes NN possibly Comyn d aft 1309
7 and 8 NN

Will Johnson- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chaps,

I'm sorry that my attempts at charts went so wrong. I have tried again
with a numbering system that hopefully is understandable. I am not
sure of the convention in the system and I hope I haven't broken any
rules.

The details are combined from information from;

Keith Sintoun, Inverugy, Ludquhon, Ravenscraig by Donald M McIntosh
1998

The Cheyne Family in Scotland by Lieut. Colonel A. Y. Cheyne 1931

The books were from the reference section of my public library, so i
do not have information at hand to answer any follow up questions
immediately.

Thank you,


1 Sir Andrew de Keith, 2nd of Inverugie, b. c1369 d. c1450

Parents
2 Sir John de Keth, 1st of Inverugie, b. c1328 m. c1369 d. c1400
3 Marion le Chien

Paternal Grandparents
4 Sir Edward de Keth b. c1295 d.17-Oct-1346
5 ? le Chien

Maternal Grandparents
6 Ronald (Reginald) le Chien, 4th of Inverugie
7 Helen of Strathearn

Paternal Great Grandparents
8 Sir Edward de Keth, b. c1265
9 Isabel de Sytoun

10 Francis (Freskin)le Chien
11 Isabel de Cuming (Comyn)

Maternal Great Grandparents
12 Ronald (Reginald) le Chien, 3rd of Inverugie
13 Mary de Moray (Moravia)

14 Malise, 7th Earl of Strathern
15 Matida, of Orkney & Caithness

Paternal Great great Grandparents
16 NN
17 NN
18 NN
19 NN

20 Ronald (Reginald) le Chien, 3rd of Inverugie
21 Mary de Moray (Moravia)

22 NN
23 NN

Maternal Great great Grandparents
24 Reginald le Chen, 2nd of Inverugie
25 dau of William Comyn, of Buchan

26 Freskin of Moravia, of Duffus & Strabrok
27 Johanna, Lady of Strathnivar

28 Malise, 6th Earl of Strathearn
29 dau of Alexander Comyn, of Buchan

30 Magnus, Earl of Orkney & Caithness
31 NN

Thanks for your patience,

Grothenwell















5





3

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 22:11:03

In a message dated 2/15/07 5:59:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, kleigh1@cox.net
writes:

<< Katherine, dau and eventual coheir of Richard Widville, Earl Rivers. Mar.
1st, to Henry Stafford, Duke of Buckingham. Mar., 2ndly, to Jasper, Duke of
Bedford. >>

How is this possible.
Richard Widville, 1st Earl Rivers married Jacquetta of Luxembourg, Duchess of
/Bedford/
and they had several children
Among whom was, *his* heir
Anthony Widville, 2nd Earl /Rivers/ who d 25 Jun 1483 at Pontefract
but not before marrying Gwenllian /Stradling/
and thereby *at least* one daughter
Margaret /Wydeville/ b abt 1455 (per genealogics
who m Robert /Poyntz/ of Acton
and thereby *at least* one son
Anthony /Poyntz/ of Iron Acton d 1533

and many many descendents.

So *how* could she be an eventual co-heir of her father? Surely all the
inheritence went to Anthony and his long line which extends at least into the 18th
century if not to today.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 22:41:02

In a message dated 2/15/07 5:59:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, kleigh1@cox.net
writes:

<< [Richard Wingfield d 1525] Married
Bridget, dau. and heir of Sir John Wiltshire, Knt. Marr., 2ndly, to Sir
Nicholas Hervey. Mar., 3rdly, to Sir Robert Tirwhitt, Knt. >>

Just to give this a chronologic framework
Sir Richard Wingfield died 22 Jul 1525 Toledo, Spain
they had at least one child Charles, so Bridget was of child bearing age at
least

Her second husband Nicholas Hervey died 25 Aug 1532 and again they had at
least one child Henry Hervey of Kidbrooke, so Bridget was not yet in her dotage

I did not have her third husband so I can't say anything about him.
Interesting name however, I'm sure he is the same as one of the other Robert
Tyrwhitt's I already have (I have 12 of them), just not quite sure which one yet.

Will

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 22:42:03

In a message dated 2/15/07 7:31:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:

<< This is it: the impalement is for the Wilshire wife, while the lozenge
is for the Wydville sister-in-law (or rightly a Plantagenet niece).
Foster (quarto) shows a 14th-c Sir John Wilshire with 'per chevron gules
and argent, the chief crusilly patee'; here we have azure instead of
gules. >>

To give Bridgit Wiltshire some substance
Dictionary of National Biography, "Hervey, William" online at http://www.ancestry.com
has more details
and I have her father as
Sir John /Wiltshire/ , Knt of Stone Castle, Kent
and John's wife as Isabella /Clothall/
citing stirnet

Will

Gjest

Re: Wingfield Coats-of-Arms

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 22:51:02

In a message dated 2/15/07 11:12:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< Elizabeth, Duchess of Norfolk (c.1370-1425), her twin sister Joan, Lady
Abergavenny (c.1370-1435), and their youngest sister Margaret, Dame Lenthall
(1383-1423), were all co-heiresses of their brother Thomas Fitzalan, 5th
Earl of Arundel (1381-1415). They inherited all of the Arundel properties
that were not entailed to the heir male, and I think the majority were from
the Warenne inheritance. >>

If this source whatever it is, can hold up to scrutiny it would destroy the
theory that Henry Beaufort, Bishop of Winchester had a child Joan by "Alice,
one of the daughters of Richard, Earl of Arundel"

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: ? Comyn wife of Malise

Legg inn av Gjest » 15 feb 2007 23:08:02

In a message dated 2/15/07 12:06:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:

<< 14 Malise, 7th Earl of Strathern
15 Matida, of Orkney & Caithness >>

I'd be suspicious of this connection with a full citation to the proof.
Malise the 7th Earl had a full sister Maud (Matilda) who m Robert de Toeni
(or Tosny)
Robert was b 4 Apr 1276 and they were married 26 Apr 1293 (date of
settlement) so that gives you a fair idea of how old Maud might have been.

It would be a natural enough argument that Maud (Matilda) was named for her
grand-mother, although Maud is a common enough name. And that is where I have
Matilda of Orkney, as the wife of Malise the 5th Earl of Strathearn who d bef
23 Nov 1271 in France (citing GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-11-09
(November) and genealogics)

This older Matilda was I presume the one who was supposed to be a daughter of
Magnus

SomersetSue

Re: Parentage of Henry Denton of Maryland

Legg inn av SomersetSue » 16 feb 2007 01:40:17

On Feb 15, 12:03?pm, "Chris Dickinson" <c...@dickinson.uk.net> wrote:
Will Johnson wrote:


at night, putting to ?fright Elizabeth Hickman and Elizabeth Graye,
and
stealing a petticoat of ?crimson velvet laced with silver laces worth
?40,

<snip>

Hmm, an expensive petticoat.

That's interesting. I suspect that might be the Elizabeth Hickman
(born about 1603) who later married Sir Henry Clinton-Fiennes b.1597
Kirkstead, Lincs. He was a son of the 2nd Earl of Lincoln and she was
the daughter of the academic Doctor Henry Hickman and granddaughter of
the rich merchant adventurer Anthony Hickman and Rose Hickman (nee
Locke and later Throckmorton). They were seriously rich people.

Sue

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