Blount-Ayala
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: [OT] Kevin Randolph Hearst
In a message dated 2/4/07 7:16:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:
<< Now, can you (or someone) do the same for that 'Matthew Rockefeller' --
self-proclaimed descendant of Persian kings, the Maharal of Prague,
Baha'ullah (?sp), etc. -- who posted here a while back? >>
Nate thanks for bringing this point back to my mind.
The crucial weak spot, imho, would be in Matthew's stated ancestry, here
"Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery B Rockerfeller (1903-1986) by Anna M
Mark (1906-1996), married Reza Ali (1939-1978)"
I have not examined this case yet, but I would strongly encourage anyone
interested, that these people undoubtedly are mentioned in the New York Times
which has an *free* online index to their articles. The Rockefeller family were
then, and probably still are, mentioned in various *puff* pieces about their
social doings. I have no doubt whatsoever, that both Avery and Anna are
mentioned somewhere, somehow, and hopefully their obits are there as well which would
make crystal clear the truth or fallacy of the above claim.
Will Johnson
nathanieltaylor@earthlink.net writes:
<< Now, can you (or someone) do the same for that 'Matthew Rockefeller' --
self-proclaimed descendant of Persian kings, the Maharal of Prague,
Baha'ullah (?sp), etc. -- who posted here a while back? >>
Nate thanks for bringing this point back to my mind.
The crucial weak spot, imho, would be in Matthew's stated ancestry, here
"Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery B Rockerfeller (1903-1986) by Anna M
Mark (1906-1996), married Reza Ali (1939-1978)"
I have not examined this case yet, but I would strongly encourage anyone
interested, that these people undoubtedly are mentioned in the New York Times
which has an *free* online index to their articles. The Rockefeller family were
then, and probably still are, mentioned in various *puff* pieces about their
social doings. I have no doubt whatsoever, that both Avery and Anna are
mentioned somewhere, somehow, and hopefully their obits are there as well which would
make crystal clear the truth or fallacy of the above claim.
Will Johnson
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London
In message of 5 Feb, mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
My belief is much the same and that is as much as I know. But I happen
to have the odd reference book and Boutell's Heraldry, 1975 edition page
97 has:
PHEON: The barbed head of an arrow, engrailed on the inner edges of
the barbs. When not so engrailed, it is sometimes termed a broad
arrow. The pheon is borne point downwards unless a differen position
is indicated in the blazon.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
On Feb 5, 5:24 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
I think this must also be him
"Sa. a fess betw. three pheons arg. Malpas, co Chester. Sir
Philip Malpas, Alderman of London, V"
What is a pheon?
I believe it's a kind of arrowhead, but Tim will know more exactly.
My belief is much the same and that is as much as I know. But I happen
to have the odd reference book and Boutell's Heraldry, 1975 edition page
97 has:
PHEON: The barbed head of an arrow, engrailed on the inner edges of
the barbs. When not so engrailed, it is sometimes termed a broad
arrow. The pheon is borne point downwards unless a differen position
is indicated in the blazon.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
R. Battle
Re: [OT] Kevin Randolph Hearst
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
According to Avery Rockefeller's death notice in the New York Times
(23, 24, 25, and 27 May 1986), his survivors were the following: wife Anna
Mark Rockefeller, sister Gladys R. Underhill, 2 children (Ann Rockefeller
Elliman and Joan Rockefeller McAlpin), 10 grandchildren (Ted Elliman, Mary
Runestad, David Elliman, Avery Rockefeller III, Kim Elliman, Lucia Brown,
David McAlpin, Ann McAlpin, Loring McAlpin, and Janet McAlpin), and 9
great grandchildren (not named).
-Robert Battle
<snip>
The crucial weak spot, imho, would be in Matthew's stated ancestry,
here
"Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery B Rockerfeller (1903-1986) by
Anna M Mark (1906-1996), married Reza Ali (1939-1978)"
snip
According to Avery Rockefeller's death notice in the New York Times
(23, 24, 25, and 27 May 1986), his survivors were the following: wife Anna
Mark Rockefeller, sister Gladys R. Underhill, 2 children (Ann Rockefeller
Elliman and Joan Rockefeller McAlpin), 10 grandchildren (Ted Elliman, Mary
Runestad, David Elliman, Avery Rockefeller III, Kim Elliman, Lucia Brown,
David McAlpin, Ann McAlpin, Loring McAlpin, and Janet McAlpin), and 9
great grandchildren (not named).
-Robert Battle
-
Gjest
Re: [OT] Kevin Randolph Hearst
In a message dated 2/5/07 11:46:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
battle@u.washington.edu writes:
<< According to Avery Rockefeller's death notice in the New York Times
(23, 24, 25, and 27 May 1986), his survivors were the following: wife Anna
Mark Rockefeller, sister Gladys R. Underhill, 2 children (Ann Rockefeller
Elliman and Joan Rockefeller McAlpin), 10 grandchildren (Ted Elliman, Mary
Runestad, David Elliman, Avery Rockefeller III, Kim Elliman, Lucia Brown,
David McAlpin, Ann McAlpin, Loring McAlpin, and Janet McAlpin), and 9
great grandchildren (not named).
-Robert Battle >>
Thanks Robert, that's absolutely excellent.
I have just found a NYT article which is speaking about William Rockefeller,
the progenitor of this branch who died in 1922. It's speaking about a trust
he left for his "born and not yet born great-grandchildren" which is under
trusteeship of his children and grandchildren. Within the article it states "...
at present there are 28 great-grandchildren."
That will be very useful as I try to once and for ALL delineate this branch
so that Kevin or Matthew or whatever his name is, can't try to sneak himself in
under another wing of it
I've started my research on this branch (this is Avery to "Matthew") here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... r#Avery_B_
Rockefeller
Thanks for looking that up.
Will Johnson
battle@u.washington.edu writes:
<< According to Avery Rockefeller's death notice in the New York Times
(23, 24, 25, and 27 May 1986), his survivors were the following: wife Anna
Mark Rockefeller, sister Gladys R. Underhill, 2 children (Ann Rockefeller
Elliman and Joan Rockefeller McAlpin), 10 grandchildren (Ted Elliman, Mary
Runestad, David Elliman, Avery Rockefeller III, Kim Elliman, Lucia Brown,
David McAlpin, Ann McAlpin, Loring McAlpin, and Janet McAlpin), and 9
great grandchildren (not named).
-Robert Battle >>
Thanks Robert, that's absolutely excellent.
I have just found a NYT article which is speaking about William Rockefeller,
the progenitor of this branch who died in 1922. It's speaking about a trust
he left for his "born and not yet born great-grandchildren" which is under
trusteeship of his children and grandchildren. Within the article it states "...
at present there are 28 great-grandchildren."
That will be very useful as I try to once and for ALL delineate this branch
so that Kevin or Matthew or whatever his name is, can't try to sneak himself in
under another wing of it
I've started my research on this branch (this is Avery to "Matthew") here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... r#Avery_B_
Rockefeller
Thanks for looking that up.
Will Johnson
-
pj.evans
Re: Kevin Randolph Hearst
On Feb 5, 11:40 am, "R. Battle" <bat...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
Avery had a son, Avery jr, who appears from this to deserve 'd.v.p.'
after his name.
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
snip>> The crucial weak spot, imho, would be in Matthew's stated ancestry,
here
"Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery B Rockerfeller (1903-1986) by
Anna M Mark (1906-1996), married Reza Ali (1939-1978)"
snip
According to Avery Rockefeller's death notice in the New York Times
(23, 24, 25, and 27 May 1986), his survivors were the following: wife Anna
Mark Rockefeller, sister Gladys R. Underhill, 2 children (Ann Rockefeller
Elliman and Joan Rockefeller McAlpin), 10 grandchildren (Ted Elliman, Mary
Runestad, David Elliman, Avery Rockefeller III, Kim Elliman, Lucia Brown,
David McAlpin, Ann McAlpin, Loring McAlpin, and Janet McAlpin), and 9
great grandchildren (not named).
-Robert Battle
Avery had a son, Avery jr, who appears from this to deserve 'd.v.p.'
after his name.
-
Gjest
Re: Philip Mowbray, Gov. of Stirling Castle
In a message dated 2/4/07 3:04:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:
<< 1.1.1.1.1.2.3.2.1 David de Loen
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Janet Stewart
Father: Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany (1339-1420)
Mother: Margaret Graham (-~1380)
Marr: aft 20 Jul 1372[12] >>
I have these parents Robert and Margaret as m AFT 9 Sep 1361. Margaret
Graham's just previous husband John Drummond of Concraig was yet living in May
1360. So Janet above cannot have been older then ten in 1372.
It would be interesting to try her chronology in further descent, some of
these generations have very large year ranges.
Will Johnson
writes:
<< 1.1.1.1.1.2.3.2.1 David de Loen
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Janet Stewart
Father: Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany (1339-1420)
Mother: Margaret Graham (-~1380)
Marr: aft 20 Jul 1372[12] >>
I have these parents Robert and Margaret as m AFT 9 Sep 1361. Margaret
Graham's just previous husband John Drummond of Concraig was yet living in May
1360. So Janet above cannot have been older then ten in 1372.
It would be interesting to try her chronology in further descent, some of
these generations have very large year ranges.
Will Johnson
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Kevin Randolph Hearst -- Fraud Or Genuine?
So there is no Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery -- OR she predeceased
him?
DSH
"R. Battle" <battle@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702051123020.4706@dante01.u.washington.edu...
him?
DSH
"R. Battle" <battle@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702051123020.4706@dante01.u.washington.edu...
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
snip
The crucial weak spot, imho, would be in Matthew's stated ancestry, here
"Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery B Rockerfeller (1903-1986) by
Anna M Mark (1906-1996), married Reza Ali (1939-1978)"
snip
According to Avery Rockefeller's death notice in the New York Times (23,
24, 25, and 27 May 1986), his survivors were the following: wife Anna Mark
Rockefeller, sister Gladys R. Underhill, 2 children (Ann Rockefeller
Elliman and Joan Rockefeller McAlpin), 10 grandchildren (Ted Elliman, Mary
Runestad, David Elliman, Avery Rockefeller III, Kim Elliman, Lucia Brown,
David McAlpin, Ann McAlpin, Loring McAlpin, and Janet McAlpin), and 9
great grandchildren (not named).
-Robert Battle
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Philip Mowbray, Gov. of Stirling Castle
On Feb 5, 7:01 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Exactly so. The text of the marriage contract for David de Loen
and Janet Stewart can be found in Fraser, The Red Book of Menteith II:
258, and is dated 20 July 1372. Not sure if this is accessible via
Google books; however, my notes clearly show Janet was identified as
Robert's legitimate daughter by Margaret Graham; ergo, this was a
marriage contracted by the parents for two minors. Murdoch Stewart is
usually accorded a birthdate of 1362; if this is true, Janet was born
in 1363 or later.
Cheers,
John
In a message dated 2/4/07 3:04:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, ther...@aol.com
writes:
1.1.1.1.1.2.3.2.1 David de Loen
----------------------------------------
Dear Will,
Exactly so. The text of the marriage contract for David de Loen
and Janet Stewart can be found in Fraser, The Red Book of Menteith II:
258, and is dated 20 July 1372. Not sure if this is accessible via
Google books; however, my notes clearly show Janet was identified as
Robert's legitimate daughter by Margaret Graham; ergo, this was a
marriage contracted by the parents for two minors. Murdoch Stewart is
usually accorded a birthdate of 1362; if this is true, Janet was born
in 1363 or later.
Cheers,
John
Spouse: Janet Stewart
Father: Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany (1339-1420)
Mother: Margaret Graham (-~1380)
Marr: aft 20 Jul 1372[12]
I have these parents Robert and Margaret as m AFT 9 Sep 1361. Margaret
Graham's just previous husband John Drummond of Concraig was yet living in May
1360. So Janet above cannot have been older then ten in 1372.
It would be interesting to try her chronology in further descent, some of
these generations have very large year ranges.
Will Johnson
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Kevin Randolph Hearst -- Fraud Or Genuine?
<http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Matthew_Rockefeller#Avery_B>
VERY Interesting.
Frauds must be run to ground.
You are doing Good Work.
DSH
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2775.1170705677.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
VERY Interesting.
Frauds must be run to ground.
You are doing Good Work.
DSH
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2775.1170705677.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 2/5/07 11:46:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
battle@u.washington.edu writes:
According to Avery Rockefeller's death notice in the New York Times
(23, 24, 25, and 27 May 1986), his survivors were the following: wife Anna
Mark Rockefeller, sister Gladys R. Underhill, 2 children (Ann Rockefeller
Elliman and Joan Rockefeller McAlpin), 10 grandchildren (Ted Elliman, Mary
Runestad, David Elliman, Avery Rockefeller III, Kim Elliman, Lucia Brown,
David McAlpin, Ann McAlpin, Loring McAlpin, and Janet McAlpin), and 9
great grandchildren (not named).
-Robert Battle
Thanks Robert, that's absolutely excellent.
I have just found a NYT article which is speaking about William
Rockefeller,
the progenitor of this branch who died in 1922. It's speaking about a
trust
he left for his "born and not yet born great-grandchildren" which is under
trusteeship of his children and grandchildren. Within the article it
states "...
at present there are 28 great-grandchildren."
That will be very useful as I try to once and for ALL delineate this
branch
so that Kevin or Matthew or whatever his name is, can't try to sneak
himself in
under another wing of it
I've started my research on this branch (this is Avery to "Matthew") here
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb ... r#Avery_B_
Rockefeller
Thanks for looking that up.
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
Those interested in the family of Dabridgecourt [or d'Aubercicourt or
d'Aubrichecourt] may want to check out an article by C. E. Long in vol. 1 of
"The Topographer and Genealogist" [1846], as well as articles on Sir John
Dabridgecourt, KG (d. 1415) and his brother Nicholas Dabridgecourt (d. 1400)
of Strathfieldsay in Roskell's "History of Parliament 1386-1421". None of
these references shed any light on the murky ancestry of Sir Eustace
d'Aubercicourt, but they do suggest some different relationships between the
early members of the family (Sanchet/Sanche, Eustace, John and Nicholas)
than those indicated by Beltz in his Garter history. BTW, Sir Sanchet,
Eustace's possible brother was a founding member of the Order of the Garter.
In particular, Long indicates that chronology suggests that Nicholas (from
whom the subsequent Dabridgecourts descend) as well as his brother Sir John,
KG, were not brothers of Sir Sanchet and Sir Eustace as Beltz apparently
indicates, but instead were probably sons of Sir Sanchet. Roskell indicates
that Nicholas and Sir John were either sons or nephews of Sir Sanchet, and
he does not indicate a specific relationship for Sir Eustace, calling him
only their kinsman.
Based on these sources, it seems that these relationships are too uncertain
to be established firmly, to say nothing of the further ancestry of any of
these individuals. I think that Leo is correct in suggesting that the
reference of Charles II of Navarre to Sir Eustace as his cousin is
recognizing a cousinship by marriage.
Another source that also doesn't shed much light on this problem (at least
for the English family) is Schwennicke's ESNF 13:22-24.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 4:57 PM
Subject: Fw: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman,Sir
Eustace d'Auberchicourt
Dear Douglas,
Your message made me look for the House of Julich in ES Volume XVIII Tafel
29. Here Sir Eustace is shown as having married Elisabeth/Isabelle von
Julich 29 September 1360 at Wingham, Kent. He is recorded as a KG and died
shortly after 1 December 1372 near Evreux.
When Charles II 'the Bad' called him his cousin in 1366, could that have
been in honour of Sir Eustache's wife? They are third cousins.
Sir Eustache has to be Sir Sanchet d'Abrichecourt (Aubericourt) who was one
of the founding knights of the Order of the Garter.
In Cahiers de Saint Louis last volume page 23, he is called Eustache
(Sanche) and their son Guillaume as "without known posterity.".
Sadly I cannot find any parents for Eustace. The only mention of a
Dabridgecourt I can find is a Sir John (died in 1415) and in 1413 became a
Knight of the Garter.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman,Sir Eustace
d'Auberchicourt
Dear Newsgroup ~
Sir Eustace (or Eustache) d'Auberchicourt (or d'Abrichecourt,
Dabridgecourt) (died 1372), captain of Carentan, Lieutenant of
Limousin and Périgord, veteran of the famous Battle of Poitiers, is
best known to newsgroup members as the second husband of Elizabeth of
Jülich (or Jüliers) (died 1411), widow of John, Earl of Kent. It is
well established that Elizabeth of Jülich was the niece of Queen
Philippe of Hainault, wife of King Edward III of England. Sir Eustace
and Elizabeth's son, William d'Auberchicourt, for instance, is styled
"kinsman" [consanguine] of Queen Philippe of Hainault on the
monumental brass at his tomb at Bridport, Dorset [Reference: Rogers,
Antient Sepulchral Effigies (1877): 105-106].
Recently, I learned that Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt has royal
connections of his own. It appears that Sir Eustace was styled "très
chiere et féal cousin" by King Charles (or Carlos) II of Navarre in
1366 [Reference: Documents des Archives de la Chambre des Comptes de
Navarre (Bibliothèque de l'École des hautes etudes 84) (1886):155].
See the following weblink for this reference:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=06Pes ... AAAIAAJ&pg
=PP140&lpg=PP140&dq=Eustache+Aubichicourt#PPP203,M1
At the present time, I'm unaware of the nature of the kinship between
Sir Eustace and King Charles II. However, Sir Eustace must have
something rather exalted in his ancestry, as King Charles II's
ancestry for the first five generations goes back to the top families
of Continental Europe, including three descents from the Kings of
France, and other descents from the Kings of Navarre, the Dukes of
Brabant, Brittany, and Burgundy, and the Counts of Artois.
While it is believed that Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt's descendants
remained on the Continent, I believe his brother, Nicholas, of
Stratfield Say, Hampshire, left descendants in England who occur under
the name, Dabridgecourt. If so, it would seem well worth researching
the Dabridgecourt ancestry to determine the exact connection between
Sir Eustace and King Charles II of Navarre. Among Nicholas
Dabridgecourt's probable descendants is the immigrant, William Leete,
colonial Governor of Connecticut, for which please see Gary Boyd
Roberts, Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants (2006): 538-539.
For limited but useful information on the early Dabridgecourt family,
interested parties may wish to read the material written by Beltz at
the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN1 ... g=RA65-PA9
1&lpg=RA65-PA91&ots=RlSvArlthz&dq=Abrichecourt&sig=Gy4kr2UEulxaTTb8809fFGTUJ
_0#PRA65-PA90,M1
Lastly, there is a surviving seal of Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt
dating 1361 which is described in Ellis, Catalogue of Seals in the
P.R.O., 2 (1981): 31:
A shield of arms, couché: ermine, three bars each with three
indistinct charges; helm above with mantling and crest: from a
coronet, a double plume of feathers, ermine and barred as in the
arms. The background is diapered with cinquefoils within octagons.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message
d'Aubrichecourt] may want to check out an article by C. E. Long in vol. 1 of
"The Topographer and Genealogist" [1846], as well as articles on Sir John
Dabridgecourt, KG (d. 1415) and his brother Nicholas Dabridgecourt (d. 1400)
of Strathfieldsay in Roskell's "History of Parliament 1386-1421". None of
these references shed any light on the murky ancestry of Sir Eustace
d'Aubercicourt, but they do suggest some different relationships between the
early members of the family (Sanchet/Sanche, Eustace, John and Nicholas)
than those indicated by Beltz in his Garter history. BTW, Sir Sanchet,
Eustace's possible brother was a founding member of the Order of the Garter.
In particular, Long indicates that chronology suggests that Nicholas (from
whom the subsequent Dabridgecourts descend) as well as his brother Sir John,
KG, were not brothers of Sir Sanchet and Sir Eustace as Beltz apparently
indicates, but instead were probably sons of Sir Sanchet. Roskell indicates
that Nicholas and Sir John were either sons or nephews of Sir Sanchet, and
he does not indicate a specific relationship for Sir Eustace, calling him
only their kinsman.
Based on these sources, it seems that these relationships are too uncertain
to be established firmly, to say nothing of the further ancestry of any of
these individuals. I think that Leo is correct in suggesting that the
reference of Charles II of Navarre to Sir Eustace as his cousin is
recognizing a cousinship by marriage.
Another source that also doesn't shed much light on this problem (at least
for the English family) is Schwennicke's ESNF 13:22-24.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 4:57 PM
Subject: Fw: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman,Sir
Eustace d'Auberchicourt
Dear Douglas,
Your message made me look for the House of Julich in ES Volume XVIII Tafel
29. Here Sir Eustace is shown as having married Elisabeth/Isabelle von
Julich 29 September 1360 at Wingham, Kent. He is recorded as a KG and died
shortly after 1 December 1372 near Evreux.
When Charles II 'the Bad' called him his cousin in 1366, could that have
been in honour of Sir Eustache's wife? They are third cousins.
Sir Eustache has to be Sir Sanchet d'Abrichecourt (Aubericourt) who was one
of the founding knights of the Order of the Garter.
In Cahiers de Saint Louis last volume page 23, he is called Eustache
(Sanche) and their son Guillaume as "without known posterity.".
Sadly I cannot find any parents for Eustace. The only mention of a
Dabridgecourt I can find is a Sir John (died in 1415) and in 1413 became a
Knight of the Garter.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman,Sir Eustace
d'Auberchicourt
Dear Newsgroup ~
Sir Eustace (or Eustache) d'Auberchicourt (or d'Abrichecourt,
Dabridgecourt) (died 1372), captain of Carentan, Lieutenant of
Limousin and Périgord, veteran of the famous Battle of Poitiers, is
best known to newsgroup members as the second husband of Elizabeth of
Jülich (or Jüliers) (died 1411), widow of John, Earl of Kent. It is
well established that Elizabeth of Jülich was the niece of Queen
Philippe of Hainault, wife of King Edward III of England. Sir Eustace
and Elizabeth's son, William d'Auberchicourt, for instance, is styled
"kinsman" [consanguine] of Queen Philippe of Hainault on the
monumental brass at his tomb at Bridport, Dorset [Reference: Rogers,
Antient Sepulchral Effigies (1877): 105-106].
Recently, I learned that Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt has royal
connections of his own. It appears that Sir Eustace was styled "très
chiere et féal cousin" by King Charles (or Carlos) II of Navarre in
1366 [Reference: Documents des Archives de la Chambre des Comptes de
Navarre (Bibliothèque de l'École des hautes etudes 84) (1886):155].
See the following weblink for this reference:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=06Pes ... AAAIAAJ&pg
=PP140&lpg=PP140&dq=Eustache+Aubichicourt#PPP203,M1
At the present time, I'm unaware of the nature of the kinship between
Sir Eustace and King Charles II. However, Sir Eustace must have
something rather exalted in his ancestry, as King Charles II's
ancestry for the first five generations goes back to the top families
of Continental Europe, including three descents from the Kings of
France, and other descents from the Kings of Navarre, the Dukes of
Brabant, Brittany, and Burgundy, and the Counts of Artois.
While it is believed that Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt's descendants
remained on the Continent, I believe his brother, Nicholas, of
Stratfield Say, Hampshire, left descendants in England who occur under
the name, Dabridgecourt. If so, it would seem well worth researching
the Dabridgecourt ancestry to determine the exact connection between
Sir Eustace and King Charles II of Navarre. Among Nicholas
Dabridgecourt's probable descendants is the immigrant, William Leete,
colonial Governor of Connecticut, for which please see Gary Boyd
Roberts, Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants (2006): 538-539.
For limited but useful information on the early Dabridgecourt family,
interested parties may wish to read the material written by Beltz at
the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN1 ... g=RA65-PA9
1&lpg=RA65-PA91&ots=RlSvArlthz&dq=Abrichecourt&sig=Gy4kr2UEulxaTTb8809fFGTUJ
_0#PRA65-PA90,M1
Lastly, there is a surviving seal of Sir Eustace d'Auberchicourt
dating 1361 which is described in Ellis, Catalogue of Seals in the
P.R.O., 2 (1981): 31:
A shield of arms, couché: ermine, three bars each with three
indistinct charges; helm above with mantling and crest: from a
coronet, a double plume of feathers, ermine and barred as in the
arms. The background is diapered with cinquefoils within octagons.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-------------------------------
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-
Gjest
Re:Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)
John Higgins wrote:-
<I assume one of the variants you've come across is Sprencheaux [or
<Sprencieulx - two variants I guess]. Under that name in my data I have Sir
<Fulk Sprencheaux, whose daughter Margaret mar. Richard Lee of Langley
<(living 1479). Is this the Fulk who is noted as your ancestor? Do you have
<any information on his wife or his ancestry. My only source at the moment
<for this family is the woefully inadequate visitation of Shropshire.
<I assume one of the variants you've come across is Sprencheaux [or
<Sprencieulx - two variants I guess]. Under that name in my data I have Sir
<Fulk Sprencheaux, whose daughter Margaret mar. Richard Lee of Langley
<(living 1479). Is this the Fulk who is noted as your ancestor? Do you have
<any information on his wife or his ancestry. My only source at the moment
<for this family is the woefully inadequate visitation of Shropshire.
-
Gordon Johnson
Re: Dominus/miles
Clagett, Brice wrote:
enormously, often on the basis of the terms used in the original
research source. You can do the same: whatever usage is given in the
source you find, repeat that, and you have always got a reply for anyone
who cares to criticise.
The present heir to the throne is described in many ways, depending on
where he is at the time. If in Scotland, he is called the Duke of
Rothesay instead of the Prince of Wales. He has so many titles that
wherever he happens to visit, one of these titles will be the preferred
usage in that locality!
Gordon.
Yes, I knew most of this. (I was at a weekend house party years ago
where
another guest was Edward, the present Duke of Norfolk. He was introduced
as "Teddy Arrrrndle" (no Surrey). His infant son, who was also there,
was
introduced as "Maltr'vers" -- a suitably aged courtesy title.)
Peter analogizes using Sir with Earl to using Baron with Earl. But the
difference, as previously noted, is that earl outranks baron on the same
track (peerage) while earl does not outrank knight on the chivalric
track.
What I am trying to learn is whether it is better form to write "Richard
Neville, Earl of Warwick" or "Sir Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick" in a
genealogical or historical article or book. Burke's Peerage (103d
edition)
is wildly inconsistent on this and so is no help.
I'd much appreciate the input of others, especially Brits.
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Stewart [mailto:p_m_stewart@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 6:33 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Dominus/miles
Clagett, Brice wrote:
I may be misremembering -- I can't find it in the archives -- but I
thought that some time ago Peter Stewart asserted that it is wrong to
say, e.g., "Sir Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick," on the ground that
the higher dignity (earl) subsumes the lesser (knight). I would have
thought, as Peter seems to be saying below in agreeing with Alex, that
the two are different tracks (and certainly not all earls are knights,
or vice versa). Which is right?
Both I think, Brice, as I don't see these as incompatible. There would
be no way to tell from non-specific references to an earl whether or not
he had been knighted.
As a more-or-less parallel instance, if an earl happened to inherit a
baronial title he did not then become known in most contexts as, for
instance, "Henry, earl of Warwick, lord Burghersh". The lower title,
even if this had been older and more famous than the higher one, was
simply subsumed for ordinary purposes in addressing or referring to the
peer in question. If not, some men would have been known by a long
string of independent dignities, to the point of absurdity.
In this case, the barony of Burghersh might have been (I haven't
checked) senior to any other baronial title that may have belonged to
the earls of Warwick, and if so Earl Henry's son & heir (though he
didn't have one) might have used it as his courtesy title during his
father's lifetime.
A modern example is Miles Fitzalan-Howard, duke of Norfolk, who died a
few years ago. He became Lord Beaumont when his mother died, then
officially also Lord Howard of Glossop shortly afterwards when his
father died - however, Beaumont was the senior of these titles and was
the only one he used while he held just these two. (He could have chosen
to be known as "Lord Beaumont and Howard of Glossop", I suppose, but not
the other way round, on the same principle of seniority). Then a few
years later he became duke of Norfolk with a string of lesser dignities
attached that were never used for himself. His son & heir Edward used
"earl of Arundel & Surrey" as a courtesy title, not "Lord Beaumont",
using only the next-highest dignity after the dukedom.
Kighthood was not conferred as a courtesy in a similar way, although the
eldest sons of baronets later claimed the right to it. Still the
principle of subsuming a lesser style applies, no matter that the titles
come by different tracks. Equally, when a peer inherits also a
baronetcy, as often happens, you would never know this from the way he
is named and styled in any normal circumstances. The form "Miles, Lord
Beaumont, Bart" is unheard of, as is "Sir Miles, Lord Beaumont"
(hypothetically, since Miles Howard was not a baronet as far as I know,
though he is bound to have received a knighthood at some stage, as duke
if not before).
Peter Stewart
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Stewart [mailto:p_m_stewart@msn.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 5:42 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Dominus/miles
Alex Maxwell Findlater wrote:
In my experience in looking at original charters and at
transcriptions, a "miles" does not have to be a "dominus" nor does a
"dominus" have to be a "miles". The two statuses are quite
distinct.
"Dominus" means a Lord, ie it is a land, wealth and social status,
while "miles" refers to one who has been dubbed a knight, a
chivalric status. Of course there is an overwhelming crossover
between the two,
but they are nevertheless distinct.
Also, of course, priests were known as Dom, as indeed they still are
in the Catholic Church, but this was an ecclesiastical title and so
not comparable.
This is very sensible, Alex.
Richardson doesn't agree, since he considers that "dominus" indicates
knighthood except in the case of priests (at least I assume he doesn't
think that a pope called "dominus" might have been an English knight).
The translation "Sir N de N knight" is only a rough approximation to
the meaning of "dominus N de N miles", to avoid using "Lord N de N
knight"
when the individual may not have been a lord as such. A better idea of
the original meaning for non-lords would be given, at the cost of more
ink, by something like "the honourable Sir N de N".
Peter Stewart
** In books I have used, mainly 19th century, the usage varies
enormously, often on the basis of the terms used in the original
research source. You can do the same: whatever usage is given in the
source you find, repeat that, and you have always got a reply for anyone
who cares to criticise.
The present heir to the throne is described in many ways, depending on
where he is at the time. If in Scotland, he is called the Duke of
Rothesay instead of the Prince of Wales. He has so many titles that
wherever he happens to visit, one of these titles will be the preferred
usage in that locality!
Gordon.
-
pj.evans
Re: Kevin Randolph Hearst -- Fraud Or Genuine?
On Feb 5, 6:08 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I've only seen three children listed for Avery (at locations 'Matthew'
hasn't 'fixed'). Given that we have here Avery jr, Ann, and Joan, I
think it's safe to say that Margaret doesn't exist, or doesn't belong
to <i>this</i> Rockefeller family.
So there is no Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery -- OR she predeceased
him?
DSH
"R. Battle" <bat...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702051123020.4706@dante01.u.washington.edu...
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
snip
The crucial weak spot, imho, would be in Matthew's stated ancestry, here
"Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery B Rockerfeller (1903-1986) by
Anna M Mark (1906-1996), married Reza Ali (1939-1978)"
snip
I've only seen three children listed for Avery (at locations 'Matthew'
hasn't 'fixed'). Given that we have here Avery jr, Ann, and Joan, I
think it's safe to say that Margaret doesn't exist, or doesn't belong
to <i>this</i> Rockefeller family.
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
In message of 6 Feb, "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Eh?
Not in this list of the first 25 and more:
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm
See number 120 for the only other d'Abrichecourt KG.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Those interested in the family of Dabridgecourt [or d'Aubercicourt or
d'Aubrichecourt] may want to check out an article by C. E. Long in vol. 1 of
"The Topographer and Genealogist" [1846], as well as articles on Sir John
Dabridgecourt, KG (d. 1415) and his brother Nicholas Dabridgecourt (d. 1400)
of Strathfieldsay in Roskell's "History of Parliament 1386-1421". None of
these references shed any light on the murky ancestry of Sir Eustace
d'Aubercicourt, but they do suggest some different relationships between the
early members of the family (Sanchet/Sanche, Eustace, John and Nicholas)
than those indicated by Beltz in his Garter history. BTW, Sir Sanchet,
Eustace's possible brother was a founding member of the Order of the Garter.
Eh?
Not in this list of the first 25 and more:
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm
See number 120 for the only other d'Abrichecourt KG.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
John Higgins
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
Hmmmm....The Long article in T&G cites Beltz as saying that Sir Sanchet was
a KG, and Roskell goes further (also citing Beltz) to say in two biographies
that he was a "founder member" of the Order of the Garter. I don't have
access to Beltz (and the Google Books version is very incomplete), so I
can't resolve this issue.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman,Sir
Eustace d'Auberchicourt
In message of 6 Feb, "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Eh?
Not in this list of the first 25 and more:
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm
See number 120 for the only other d'Abrichecourt KG.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
a KG, and Roskell goes further (also citing Beltz) to say in two biographies
that he was a "founder member" of the Order of the Garter. I don't have
access to Beltz (and the Google Books version is very incomplete), so I
can't resolve this issue.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Powys-Lybbe" <tim@powys.org>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman,Sir
Eustace d'Auberchicourt
In message of 6 Feb, "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Those interested in the family of Dabridgecourt [or d'Aubercicourt or
d'Aubrichecourt] may want to check out an article by C. E. Long in vol. 1
of
"The Topographer and Genealogist" [1846], as well as articles on Sir John
Dabridgecourt, KG (d. 1415) and his brother Nicholas Dabridgecourt (d.
1400)
of Strathfieldsay in Roskell's "History of Parliament 1386-1421". None of
these references shed any light on the murky ancestry of Sir Eustace
d'Aubercicourt, but they do suggest some different relationships between
the
early members of the family (Sanchet/Sanche, Eustace, John and Nicholas)
than those indicated by Beltz in his Garter history. BTW, Sir Sanchet,
Eustace's possible brother was a founding member of the Order of the
Garter.
Eh?
Not in this list of the first 25 and more:
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm
See number 120 for the only other d'Abrichecourt KG.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Kevin Randolph Hearst -- Fraud Or Genuine?
Yep...
Good Work.
Sly bastard, isn't he....
But not clever enough.
DSH
"pj.evans" <pj.evans.gen@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1170777475.894120.281680@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Good Work.
Sly bastard, isn't he....
But not clever enough.
DSH
"pj.evans" <pj.evans.gen@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1170777475.894120.281680@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 5, 6:08 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <poguemid...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So there is no Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery -- OR she
predeceased
him?
DSH
"R. Battle" <bat...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0702051123020.4706@dante01.u.washington.edu...
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
snip
The crucial weak spot, imho, would be in Matthew's stated ancestry,
here
"Margaret Rockefeller, daughter of Avery B Rockerfeller (1903-1986) by
Anna M Mark (1906-1996), married Reza Ali (1939-1978)"
snip
I've only seen three children listed for Avery (at locations 'Matthew'
hasn't 'fixed'). Given that we have here Avery jr, Ann, and Joan, I
think it's safe to say that Margaret doesn't exist, or doesn't belong
to <i>this</i> Rockefeller family.
-
Gjest
Re: Katherine Harrington= Henry Halsall or Roger Hulton?
Can you provide an ascent for this katherine to her royal connection?
I do not yet have her in my database.
Thanks
Will Johnson
I do not yet have her in my database.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Eleanor De Montague
In a message dated 2/4/07 9:40:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, tim@powys.org
writes:
<< 2. bef 26 Nov 1396, Maud Matravers, widow of Piers de la Mare. >>
On this marriage although CP says the above, we also have a document, dated 1
Aug 1396 describing how she "in pure widowhood" feoffes Sir William Ekerdon,
etc.
So the marriage date should be Aug/Nov 1396
Will Johnson
writes:
<< 2. bef 26 Nov 1396, Maud Matravers, widow of Piers de la Mare. >>
On this marriage although CP says the above, we also have a document, dated 1
Aug 1396 describing how she "in pure widowhood" feoffes Sir William Ekerdon,
etc.
So the marriage date should be Aug/Nov 1396
Will Johnson
-
alden@mindspring.com
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
See number 24.
Doug Smith
On Feb 6, 11:09 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
Doug Smith
On Feb 6, 11:09 am, Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote:
In message of 6 Feb, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Those interested in the family of Dabridgecourt [or d'Aubercicourt or
d'Aubrichecourt] may want to check out an article by C. E. Long in vol. 1 of
"The Topographer and Genealogist" [1846], as well as articles on Sir John
Dabridgecourt, KG (d. 1415) and his brother Nicholas Dabridgecourt (d. 1400)
of Strathfieldsay in Roskell's "History of Parliament 1386-1421". None of
these references shed any light on the murky ancestry of Sir Eustace
d'Aubercicourt, but they do suggest some different relationships between the
early members of the family (Sanchet/Sanche, Eustace, John and Nicholas)
than those indicated by Beltz in his Garter history. BTW, Sir Sanchet,
Eustace's possible brother was a founding member of the Order of the Garter.
Eh?
Not in this list of the first 25 and more:
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm
See number 120 for the only other d'Abrichecourt KG.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones:http://powys.org/
-
Gjest
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
In a message dated 2/6/07 3:21:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:
<< I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please? >>
Gilchrist son of Morgund, was the 3rd Earl of Mar.
He married Arabella (Orabilis) de Leuchars by which daughter unnamed who
married Malcolm de Lundie and thereby had Thomas de Lundin the Durward
Gilchrist son of Gilbride, was the 4th Earl of Angus
He married Marjory (Maud) "of Scotland" sister of the King who he had put to
death on an accusation of adultery. For this the King banished him. He is
alledged to have been pardoned many years or at least sometime later.
Will Johnson
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:
<< I have read in "The Stewart Dynasty" by Stewart
Ross that Gilchrist was Earl of Mar a son of Morgund, but I have seen
elsewhere that Gilchrist was the 4th Earl of Angus. Can anyone tell me
which is correct please? >>
Gilchrist son of Morgund, was the 3rd Earl of Mar.
He married Arabella (Orabilis) de Leuchars by which daughter unnamed who
married Malcolm de Lundie and thereby had Thomas de Lundin the Durward
Gilchrist son of Gilbride, was the 4th Earl of Angus
He married Marjory (Maud) "of Scotland" sister of the King who he had put to
death on an accusation of adultery. For this the King banished him. He is
alledged to have been pardoned many years or at least sometime later.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
In a message dated 2/6/07 3:51:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mark_bridge@hotmail.com writes:
<< Maria d'Auberchicourt, "Dame de
Risoir de Bernissart en Artois" to a "Filips II de Stoute van
Bourgondie" in 1365. >>
This person is perhaps better known as
Phillip II "The Bold", Count of Flanders, Duke of /Burgundy/ 1363-1404
son of John II, King of France by his wife Jutte (Judith) of Luxembourg
Will Johnson
mark_bridge@hotmail.com writes:
<< Maria d'Auberchicourt, "Dame de
Risoir de Bernissart en Artois" to a "Filips II de Stoute van
Bourgondie" in 1365. >>
This person is perhaps better known as
Phillip II "The Bold", Count of Flanders, Duke of /Burgundy/ 1363-1404
son of John II, King of France by his wife Jutte (Judith) of Luxembourg
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
Dear Fellow Listers,
Sanchet Daubrichcourt is given as a founder
knight of the Order of the Garter in Joseph Hayden`s 1894 "Book of Dignities" p
733. His death date is listed as ________. John Daubrichcourt was created a
Knight of the Garter by King Henry V in April 1413 and died ________ (p 735)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Sanchet Daubrichcourt is given as a founder
knight of the Order of the Garter in Joseph Hayden`s 1894 "Book of Dignities" p
733. His death date is listed as ________. John Daubrichcourt was created a
Knight of the Garter by King Henry V in April 1413 and died ________ (p 735)
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Janet
off the subject of Medieval
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague?
Janet
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague?
Janet
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
No, Mary Bennet -- she was reportedly a widow and previously the wife of
William Johnson, from Norwich, England.
She reportedly died before George was born.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2864.1170855929.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague? [sic]
Janet
William Johnson, from Norwich, England.
She reportedly died before George was born.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2864.1170855929.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague? [sic]
Janet
-
Janet
Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
I found in Ball and Montague books that George mother Mary Ball mother was
Mary Montague widow for William Johnson. Mary Montague Johnson married
Joseph Ball the parents of Mary Ball mother George
I found Mary Montague parents were Peter and Mary/Elizabeth Montague
Thank you D. Spencer Hines for help
Janet
-------Original Message-------
From: D. Spencer Hines
Date: 02/07/07 10:57:22
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
No, Mary Bennet -- she was reportedly a widow and previously the wife of
William Johnson, from Norwich, England.
She reportedly died before George was born.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2864.1170855929.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague? [sic]
Janet
-------------------------------
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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 2/6/2007
5:52 PM
.
Mary Montague widow for William Johnson. Mary Montague Johnson married
Joseph Ball the parents of Mary Ball mother George
I found Mary Montague parents were Peter and Mary/Elizabeth Montague
Thank you D. Spencer Hines for help
Janet
-------Original Message-------
From: D. Spencer Hines
Date: 02/07/07 10:57:22
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
No, Mary Bennet -- she was reportedly a widow and previously the wife of
William Johnson, from Norwich, England.
She reportedly died before George was born.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2864.1170855929.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague? [sic]
Janet
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 2/6/2007
5:52 PM
.
-
Janet
Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
Then in Bennett books she is their family member help need prove
Janet
-------Original Message-------
From: Janet
Date: 02/07/07 11:24:17
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
I found in Ball and Montague books that George mother Mary Ball mother was
Mary Montague widow for William Johnson. Mary Montague Johnson married
Joseph Ball the parents of Mary Ball mother George
I found Mary Montague parents were Peter and Mary/Elizabeth Montague
Thank you D. Spencer Hines for help
Janet
-------Original Message-------
From: D. Spencer Hines
Date: 02/07/07 10:57:22
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
No, Mary Bennet -- she was reportedly a widow and previously the wife of
William Johnson, from Norwich, England.
She reportedly died before George was born.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2864.1170855929.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague? [sic]
Janet
-------------------------------
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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 2/6/2007
5:52 PM
..
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 2/6/2007
5:52 PM
.
Janet
-------Original Message-------
From: Janet
Date: 02/07/07 11:24:17
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
I found in Ball and Montague books that George mother Mary Ball mother was
Mary Montague widow for William Johnson. Mary Montague Johnson married
Joseph Ball the parents of Mary Ball mother George
I found Mary Montague parents were Peter and Mary/Elizabeth Montague
Thank you D. Spencer Hines for help
Janet
-------Original Message-------
From: D. Spencer Hines
Date: 02/07/07 10:57:22
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
No, Mary Bennet -- she was reportedly a widow and previously the wife of
William Johnson, from Norwich, England.
She reportedly died before George was born.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2864.1170855929.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague? [sic]
Janet
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 2/6/2007
5:52 PM
..
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.29/673 - Release Date: 2/6/2007
5:52 PM
.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
You're quite welcome.
Accounts Differ.
"Mrs. Mary ____ Johnson, died 1721, married (3) Richard Hewes; very likely
she was the Mary Bennett of West Chester, England who married William
Johnson of Norwich, Middlesex County, Virginia on 10 February 1688/89 and
was probably a near kinswoman of a Thomas Bennett of Westmoreland County,
living 1738/39."
Gary Boyd Roberts, _Ancestors of American Presidents_, 1995, p. 1.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2872.1170869046.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I found in Ball and Montague books that George mother Mary Ball mother was
Mary Montague widow for William Johnson. Mary Montague Johnson married
Joseph Ball the parents of Mary Ball mother George
I found Mary Montague parents were Peter and Mary/Elizabeth Montague
Thank you D. Spencer Hines for help
Janet
-------Original Message-------
From: D. Spencer Hines
Date: 02/07/07 10:57:22
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
No, Mary Bennet -- she was reportedly a widow and previously the wife of
William Johnson, from Norwich, England.
She reportedly died before George was born.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2864.1170855929.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague? [sic]
Janet
Accounts Differ.
"Mrs. Mary ____ Johnson, died 1721, married (3) Richard Hewes; very likely
she was the Mary Bennett of West Chester, England who married William
Johnson of Norwich, Middlesex County, Virginia on 10 February 1688/89 and
was probably a near kinswoman of a Thomas Bennett of Westmoreland County,
living 1738/39."
Gary Boyd Roberts, _Ancestors of American Presidents_, 1995, p. 1.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2872.1170869046.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I found in Ball and Montague books that George mother Mary Ball mother was
Mary Montague widow for William Johnson. Mary Montague Johnson married
Joseph Ball the parents of Mary Ball mother George
I found Mary Montague parents were Peter and Mary/Elizabeth Montague
Thank you D. Spencer Hines for help
Janet
-------Original Message-------
From: D. Spencer Hines
Date: 02/07/07 10:57:22
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
No, Mary Bennet -- she was reportedly a widow and previously the wife of
William Johnson, from Norwich, England.
She reportedly died before George was born.
DSH
"Janet" <monkey@getgoin.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2864.1170855929.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Pres. George Washington's mother Mary Ball parents I know father is Joseph
Ball but the mother was she Mary Montague? [sic]
Janet
-
Andrew and Inge
RE: RE: westmorland sheriffs
Dear List
I have, as suggested, uploaded what we have to Wikipedia. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheri ... estmorland
Can anyone however help me fill the gaps?
Best Regards
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew and Inge [mailto:andrew.en.inge@skynet.be]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 10:22 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: RE: westmorland sheriffs
Thanks
For those interested I'll add a few more, but if anyone has a more complete
list, it would be very much appreciated....
Regards
Andrew
----
1176 Ranulph de Glanville, Sheriff of Westmorland,
D MUS 2/10/24 - date: Not dated [circa 1189] [from Scope and
Content] Osebert sheriff of Westmorland
1201 Geoffrey Fitz Peter and Roger Bellocampo [Beauchamp] were sheriffs of
Westmoreland.The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and
Cumberland. Vol. I,
1202 William Stutevil amd Philip Escrope were sheriffs of Westm.
D MUS 2/10/67 - date: Not dated [circa 1208 John de Ormshead Sheriff of
Westmorland
D/WYB/2/32 - date: Not dated (early 13th cent.) Gilbert de Kirketon
(sheriff of Westmorland)
1217, Robert de Veteriponte was sheriff of Westmoreland (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/115 - date: Not dated circa 1230 Alexander Bachucton (sheriff of
Westmorland),
1235 John Vipont, Sheriff
1241-3 John (or Gilbert) de Kirketon under Sheriff of Westmoreland 1241-43
to High Sheriff John de Veteriponte [CWAA)
D/WYB/2/35 - date: Not dated (mid-13th cent.) Roger de Stokes (Sheriff of
Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/38 - date: Not dated (before 1283) Sir Thomas de Mussegrave
(Sheriff of Westmorland), Si
D/WYB/2/42 - date: Not dated (1283-9) Sir Richard de Medburn (Sheriff of
Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/116 - date: 1284 Michael de Hartcla (sheriff of Westmorland),
ref. D/WYB/2/43 - date: 1288 Robert de Morvill (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/88 - date: Not dated [circa 1280 - 1290] William de Steynton,
Sheriff of Westmorland
D MUS 2/10/4 - date: Not dated [late C13 - early C14] Robert Askeby sheriff
of Westmorland
WD D/MD 40 - date: 1294 Dom. Thomas de Hellebek, sheriff of Westmorland
1312 Robert de Morwyll [Morville] then Sheriff of Westmorland. Cumbria
Record Office, D HC 2/11/6 - date: Not dated [circa 1312-1316]
D/WYB/2/117 - date: 1317 Henry de Warthecopp (sheriff of Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/121 - date: Not dated (early 14th cent.) Nicholas de
Grendoun(sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/71 Gift with warranty Creation dates: 9 March 1324 Henry de
Threlkeld Sheriff of Westmorland, Richard de Blenkansop
D MUS 2/10/31 - date: 20 March 1324/5 Henry de Threlkeld, sheriff of
Westmorland, Henry de Wharton
D/WYB/2/123 - date: 1329 Thomas de Waryekop (sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/32 - date: 19 May 1333 Robert de Sandford sheriff of
Westmorland, William de Smerdale
D/WYB/2/48 - date: 1334 Robert de Sandford (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/124 - date: 1342 Thomas de Musgrave (sheriff of Westmorland),
1345 Robert de Clifford held the office(IPM)
1355 Robert Vipont Sheriff (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/53 - date: 1360 Henry de Threlkeld sheriff of Westmorland
WD RY/BOX 92/53 - date: 1380 William de Lancaster, then sheriff of
Westmorland, Hugh de Salkeld
-----Original Message-----
From: pajunkin@bellsouth.net [mailto:pajunkin@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 9:40 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: RE: westmorland sheriffs
I do not have a complete list, nevertheless, I can provide some information.
The Viponts were hereditary sheriffs of Westmoreland. The office descending
to Idonea and Isabelle Vipont by 1285.The others are probably under
sheriffs.
.....
Certainly incomplete but perhaps a start.
Pat
I have, as suggested, uploaded what we have to Wikipedia. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheri ... estmorland
Can anyone however help me fill the gaps?
Best Regards
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew and Inge [mailto:andrew.en.inge@skynet.be]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 10:22 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: RE: westmorland sheriffs
Thanks
For those interested I'll add a few more, but if anyone has a more complete
list, it would be very much appreciated....
Regards
Andrew
----
1176 Ranulph de Glanville, Sheriff of Westmorland,
D MUS 2/10/24 - date: Not dated [circa 1189] [from Scope and
Content] Osebert sheriff of Westmorland
1201 Geoffrey Fitz Peter and Roger Bellocampo [Beauchamp] were sheriffs of
Westmoreland.The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and
Cumberland. Vol. I,
1202 William Stutevil amd Philip Escrope were sheriffs of Westm.
D MUS 2/10/67 - date: Not dated [circa 1208 John de Ormshead Sheriff of
Westmorland
D/WYB/2/32 - date: Not dated (early 13th cent.) Gilbert de Kirketon
(sheriff of Westmorland)
1217, Robert de Veteriponte was sheriff of Westmoreland (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/115 - date: Not dated circa 1230 Alexander Bachucton (sheriff of
Westmorland),
1235 John Vipont, Sheriff
1241-3 John (or Gilbert) de Kirketon under Sheriff of Westmoreland 1241-43
to High Sheriff John de Veteriponte [CWAA)
D/WYB/2/35 - date: Not dated (mid-13th cent.) Roger de Stokes (Sheriff of
Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/38 - date: Not dated (before 1283) Sir Thomas de Mussegrave
(Sheriff of Westmorland), Si
D/WYB/2/42 - date: Not dated (1283-9) Sir Richard de Medburn (Sheriff of
Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/116 - date: 1284 Michael de Hartcla (sheriff of Westmorland),
ref. D/WYB/2/43 - date: 1288 Robert de Morvill (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/88 - date: Not dated [circa 1280 - 1290] William de Steynton,
Sheriff of Westmorland
D MUS 2/10/4 - date: Not dated [late C13 - early C14] Robert Askeby sheriff
of Westmorland
WD D/MD 40 - date: 1294 Dom. Thomas de Hellebek, sheriff of Westmorland
1312 Robert de Morwyll [Morville] then Sheriff of Westmorland. Cumbria
Record Office, D HC 2/11/6 - date: Not dated [circa 1312-1316]
D/WYB/2/117 - date: 1317 Henry de Warthecopp (sheriff of Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/121 - date: Not dated (early 14th cent.) Nicholas de
Grendoun(sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/71 Gift with warranty Creation dates: 9 March 1324 Henry de
Threlkeld Sheriff of Westmorland, Richard de Blenkansop
D MUS 2/10/31 - date: 20 March 1324/5 Henry de Threlkeld, sheriff of
Westmorland, Henry de Wharton
D/WYB/2/123 - date: 1329 Thomas de Waryekop (sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/32 - date: 19 May 1333 Robert de Sandford sheriff of
Westmorland, William de Smerdale
D/WYB/2/48 - date: 1334 Robert de Sandford (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/124 - date: 1342 Thomas de Musgrave (sheriff of Westmorland),
1345 Robert de Clifford held the office(IPM)
1355 Robert Vipont Sheriff (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/53 - date: 1360 Henry de Threlkeld sheriff of Westmorland
WD RY/BOX 92/53 - date: 1380 William de Lancaster, then sheriff of
Westmorland, Hugh de Salkeld
-----Original Message-----
From: pajunkin@bellsouth.net [mailto:pajunkin@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 9:40 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: RE: westmorland sheriffs
I do not have a complete list, nevertheless, I can provide some information.
The Viponts were hereditary sheriffs of Westmoreland. The office descending
to Idonea and Isabelle Vipont by 1285.The others are probably under
sheriffs.
.....
Certainly incomplete but perhaps a start.
Pat
-
Andrew and Inge
RE: RE: westmorland sheriffs
Dear List
I have, as suggested, uploaded what we have to Wikipedia. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheri ... estmorland
Can anyone however help me fill the gaps?
Best Regards
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew and Inge [mailto:andrew.en.inge@skynet.be]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 10:22 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: RE: westmorland sheriffs
Thanks
For those interested I'll add a few more, but if anyone has a more complete
list, it would be very much appreciated....
Regards
Andrew
----
1176 Ranulph de Glanville, Sheriff of Westmorland,
D MUS 2/10/24 - date: Not dated [circa 1189] [from Scope and
Content] Osebert sheriff of Westmorland
1201 Geoffrey Fitz Peter and Roger Bellocampo [Beauchamp] were sheriffs of
Westmoreland.The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and
Cumberland. Vol. I,
1202 William Stutevil amd Philip Escrope were sheriffs of Westm.
D MUS 2/10/67 - date: Not dated [circa 1208 John de Ormshead Sheriff of
Westmorland
D/WYB/2/32 - date: Not dated (early 13th cent.) Gilbert de Kirketon
(sheriff of Westmorland)
1217, Robert de Veteriponte was sheriff of Westmoreland (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/115 - date: Not dated circa 1230 Alexander Bachucton (sheriff of
Westmorland),
1235 John Vipont, Sheriff
1241-3 John (or Gilbert) de Kirketon under Sheriff of Westmoreland 1241-43
to High Sheriff John de Veteriponte [CWAA)
D/WYB/2/35 - date: Not dated (mid-13th cent.) Roger de Stokes (Sheriff of
Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/38 - date: Not dated (before 1283) Sir Thomas de Mussegrave
(Sheriff of Westmorland), Si
D/WYB/2/42 - date: Not dated (1283-9) Sir Richard de Medburn (Sheriff of
Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/116 - date: 1284 Michael de Hartcla (sheriff of Westmorland),
ref. D/WYB/2/43 - date: 1288 Robert de Morvill (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/88 - date: Not dated [circa 1280 - 1290] William de Steynton,
Sheriff of Westmorland
D MUS 2/10/4 - date: Not dated [late C13 - early C14] Robert Askeby sheriff
of Westmorland
WD D/MD 40 - date: 1294 Dom. Thomas de Hellebek, sheriff of Westmorland
1312 Robert de Morwyll [Morville] then Sheriff of Westmorland. Cumbria
Record Office, D HC 2/11/6 - date: Not dated [circa 1312-1316]
D/WYB/2/117 - date: 1317 Henry de Warthecopp (sheriff of Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/121 - date: Not dated (early 14th cent.) Nicholas de
Grendoun(sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/71 Gift with warranty Creation dates: 9 March 1324 Henry de
Threlkeld Sheriff of Westmorland, Richard de Blenkansop
D MUS 2/10/31 - date: 20 March 1324/5 Henry de Threlkeld, sheriff of
Westmorland, Henry de Wharton
D/WYB/2/123 - date: 1329 Thomas de Waryekop (sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/32 - date: 19 May 1333 Robert de Sandford sheriff of
Westmorland, William de Smerdale
D/WYB/2/48 - date: 1334 Robert de Sandford (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/124 - date: 1342 Thomas de Musgrave (sheriff of Westmorland),
1345 Robert de Clifford held the office(IPM)
1355 Robert Vipont Sheriff (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/53 - date: 1360 Henry de Threlkeld sheriff of Westmorland
WD RY/BOX 92/53 - date: 1380 William de Lancaster, then sheriff of
Westmorland, Hugh de Salkeld
-----Original Message-----
From: pajunkin@bellsouth.net [mailto:pajunkin@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 9:40 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: RE: westmorland sheriffs
I do not have a complete list, nevertheless, I can provide some information.
The Viponts were hereditary sheriffs of Westmoreland. The office descending
to Idonea and Isabelle Vipont by 1285.The others are probably under
sheriffs.
.....
Certainly incomplete but perhaps a start.
Pat
I have, as suggested, uploaded what we have to Wikipedia. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheri ... estmorland
Can anyone however help me fill the gaps?
Best Regards
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew and Inge [mailto:andrew.en.inge@skynet.be]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 10:22 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: RE: westmorland sheriffs
Thanks
For those interested I'll add a few more, but if anyone has a more complete
list, it would be very much appreciated....
Regards
Andrew
----
1176 Ranulph de Glanville, Sheriff of Westmorland,
D MUS 2/10/24 - date: Not dated [circa 1189] [from Scope and
Content] Osebert sheriff of Westmorland
1201 Geoffrey Fitz Peter and Roger Bellocampo [Beauchamp] were sheriffs of
Westmoreland.The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and
Cumberland. Vol. I,
1202 William Stutevil amd Philip Escrope were sheriffs of Westm.
D MUS 2/10/67 - date: Not dated [circa 1208 John de Ormshead Sheriff of
Westmorland
D/WYB/2/32 - date: Not dated (early 13th cent.) Gilbert de Kirketon
(sheriff of Westmorland)
1217, Robert de Veteriponte was sheriff of Westmoreland (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/115 - date: Not dated circa 1230 Alexander Bachucton (sheriff of
Westmorland),
1235 John Vipont, Sheriff
1241-3 John (or Gilbert) de Kirketon under Sheriff of Westmoreland 1241-43
to High Sheriff John de Veteriponte [CWAA)
D/WYB/2/35 - date: Not dated (mid-13th cent.) Roger de Stokes (Sheriff of
Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/38 - date: Not dated (before 1283) Sir Thomas de Mussegrave
(Sheriff of Westmorland), Si
D/WYB/2/42 - date: Not dated (1283-9) Sir Richard de Medburn (Sheriff of
Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/116 - date: 1284 Michael de Hartcla (sheriff of Westmorland),
ref. D/WYB/2/43 - date: 1288 Robert de Morvill (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/88 - date: Not dated [circa 1280 - 1290] William de Steynton,
Sheriff of Westmorland
D MUS 2/10/4 - date: Not dated [late C13 - early C14] Robert Askeby sheriff
of Westmorland
WD D/MD 40 - date: 1294 Dom. Thomas de Hellebek, sheriff of Westmorland
1312 Robert de Morwyll [Morville] then Sheriff of Westmorland. Cumbria
Record Office, D HC 2/11/6 - date: Not dated [circa 1312-1316]
D/WYB/2/117 - date: 1317 Henry de Warthecopp (sheriff of Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/121 - date: Not dated (early 14th cent.) Nicholas de
Grendoun(sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/71 Gift with warranty Creation dates: 9 March 1324 Henry de
Threlkeld Sheriff of Westmorland, Richard de Blenkansop
D MUS 2/10/31 - date: 20 March 1324/5 Henry de Threlkeld, sheriff of
Westmorland, Henry de Wharton
D/WYB/2/123 - date: 1329 Thomas de Waryekop (sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/32 - date: 19 May 1333 Robert de Sandford sheriff of
Westmorland, William de Smerdale
D/WYB/2/48 - date: 1334 Robert de Sandford (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/124 - date: 1342 Thomas de Musgrave (sheriff of Westmorland),
1345 Robert de Clifford held the office(IPM)
1355 Robert Vipont Sheriff (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/53 - date: 1360 Henry de Threlkeld sheriff of Westmorland
WD RY/BOX 92/53 - date: 1380 William de Lancaster, then sheriff of
Westmorland, Hugh de Salkeld
-----Original Message-----
From: pajunkin@bellsouth.net [mailto:pajunkin@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 9:40 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: RE: westmorland sheriffs
I do not have a complete list, nevertheless, I can provide some information.
The Viponts were hereditary sheriffs of Westmoreland. The office descending
to Idonea and Isabelle Vipont by 1285.The others are probably under
sheriffs.
.....
Certainly incomplete but perhaps a start.
Pat
-
Gjest
Re: westmorland sheriffs
Andrew that's a great addition, and will provide a good basis for expansion.
I've already added a few notes. It caused me to start working on the Earls
of Thanet.
Will
I've already added a few notes. It caused me to start working on the Earls
of Thanet.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: Sir John Leveson of Haling
In a message dated 2/7/07 3:27:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, WJhonson@aol.com
writes:
<< I'm suggesting that *this* Sir John was not *more than*
ten years older >>
Recte: for "older" replace "younger"
writes:
<< I'm suggesting that *this* Sir John was not *more than*
ten years older >>
Recte: for "older" replace "younger"
-
Gjest
Re: Ap Rhese X Latimer of Duntish
In a message dated 2/6/07 7:41:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
forrest@WHIDBEY.COM writes:
<< Sir Nicholas Latimer, who died in 1505, was succeeded by his only
daughter and heiress, Edith, wife of Sir John Mordaunt, grandfather of Lewes, Lord
Mordaunt, >>
I'm thinking the above should read "great-grandfather"
I show that John Mordaunt d 1505 was the father of
John, 1st Baron Mordaunt d 1562 Turvey, Beds who was the father of
John, 2nd Lord Mordaunt d Apr/Oct at Turvey who was the father of
Lewis, 3rd Lord Mordaunt the subject above.
Will Johnson
forrest@WHIDBEY.COM writes:
<< Sir Nicholas Latimer, who died in 1505, was succeeded by his only
daughter and heiress, Edith, wife of Sir John Mordaunt, grandfather of Lewes, Lord
Mordaunt, >>
I'm thinking the above should read "great-grandfather"
I show that John Mordaunt d 1505 was the father of
John, 1st Baron Mordaunt d 1562 Turvey, Beds who was the father of
John, 2nd Lord Mordaunt d Apr/Oct at Turvey who was the father of
Lewis, 3rd Lord Mordaunt the subject above.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
Also that it confirms that the wifes name was "Bethoc"
"Anglicized to Beatrix" per a note which I think was by Michael-Anne
Also doesn't it say "probably Beatrix of Angus" ?
That's what I have in my notes as coming from SP
Will Johnson
"Anglicized to Beatrix" per a note which I think was by Michael-Anne
Also doesn't it say "probably Beatrix of Angus" ?
That's what I have in my notes as coming from SP
Will Johnson
-
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Re: Ap Rhese X Latimer of Duntish
In message of 8 Feb, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
You would then be in agreement with CP (V, 193-6). Save that the 2nd
baron is said to have d. 1571.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
In a message dated 2/6/07 7:41:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
forrest@WHIDBEY.COM writes:
Sir Nicholas Latimer, who died in 1505, was succeeded by his only
daughter and heiress, Edith, wife of Sir John Mordaunt, grandfather of Lewes, Lord
Mordaunt,
I'm thinking the above should read "great-grandfather"
I show that John Mordaunt d 1505 was the father of
John, 1st Baron Mordaunt d 1562 Turvey, Beds who was the father of
John, 2nd Lord Mordaunt d Apr/Oct at Turvey who was the father of
Lewis, 3rd Lord Mordaunt the subject above.
You would then be in agreement with CP (V, 193-6). Save that the 2nd
baron is said to have d. 1571.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
-
Gjest
Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
Speaking of George, I have a descent for him from King Edward I
Are there any more recent Kings in George's ancestry?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Are there any more recent Kings in George's ancestry?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Rudolph KIFT c 1243
In a message dated 2/7/07 11:26:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kayenightingale@madasafish.com writes:
<< "Circa 1243 - John fitz Geoffrey, lord of Kells, grants to William
Coterel >>
Is this the same person as
John FitzGeoffrey, Lord of /Shere/ d 23 Nov 1258
married Isabel /Bigod/ d 1252
?
Thanks
Will Johnson
kayenightingale@madasafish.com writes:
<< "Circa 1243 - John fitz Geoffrey, lord of Kells, grants to William
Coterel >>
Is this the same person as
John FitzGeoffrey, Lord of /Shere/ d 23 Nov 1258
married Isabel /Bigod/ d 1252
?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
John Higgins
Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
According to gary Boyd Roberts in RD600, the "best" [i.e., most recent)
royal descent for George Washington is from Edward III. RD600, page 210.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
royal descent for George Washington is from Edward III. RD600, page 210.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
Speaking of George, I have a descent for him from King Edward I
Are there any more recent Kings in George's ancestry?
Thanks
Will Johnson
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D. Spencer Hines
Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
Yes, Edward III.
Edward III is his 12th Great-Grandfather.
President Washington is also a cousin of King George III. <g>
DSH
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2908.1170898415.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Edward III is his 12th Great-Grandfather.
President Washington is also a cousin of King George III. <g>
DSH
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2908.1170898415.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Speaking of George, I have a descent for him from King Edward I
Are there any more recent Kings in George's ancestry?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Ap Rhese X Latimer of Duntish
That Adlard (or Adelard) Welby of Goxhill, Lincolnshire (died 11 Aug 1570
"aged 63") married Cassandra Apryce (or Pryce) of Washyngleys (died 22 Feb 1590
"aged 60") is attested by Vis London
Visitation of London 1633, <a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN10025458&id=MhfOE9_8AJgC&pg=PA335&lpg=PA335&dq=Henry+Welby&as_brr=1">"Welby",
page 335</a> calling her "Price of Washingley"
And that she afterward married
Robert /Carr/ , Esq of Ashwerbye
can be found here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... 1.htm#dau1
I then, *without sources* have her parents as
William /Apryce/ of Washyngleys , Lutton, Huntingdon
by his wife
Elizabeth /Latimer/ d 1533
The grandparents I then list as
Robert /Apryce/
Joan /Otter/
Robert /Latimer/
Elizabeth /Hamwell/
Its quite likely that I got these names from some source so poor that I
deigned to list it, such as (A) the Ancestral File, (B) Patron Sheet submissions to
the IGI or (C) One World Tree.
Typically I will add these to my file, so that I can attempt to track down
Better sources for the claimed ancestry. Unfortunately I have a few thousand of
these yet to track down so I'm a bit behind. But perhaps with the names,
someone can at least find where they came from and we can proceed with a better
citation.
By the way this Robert Apyrce had as his maternal grandfather
Richard /Bray/ of Eaton-Bray, Physician to Henry VI
who is buried at Worcester Cathedral
And here we are again back on track with a citation of
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... bray01.htm
and
http://www.genealogics.org
Will Johnson
"aged 63") married Cassandra Apryce (or Pryce) of Washyngleys (died 22 Feb 1590
"aged 60") is attested by Vis London
Visitation of London 1633, <a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?vid=LCCN10025458&id=MhfOE9_8AJgC&pg=PA335&lpg=PA335&dq=Henry+Welby&as_brr=1">"Welby",
page 335</a> calling her "Price of Washingley"
And that she afterward married
Robert /Carr/ , Esq of Ashwerbye
can be found here
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... 1.htm#dau1
I then, *without sources* have her parents as
William /Apryce/ of Washyngleys , Lutton, Huntingdon
by his wife
Elizabeth /Latimer/ d 1533
The grandparents I then list as
Robert /Apryce/
Joan /Otter/
Robert /Latimer/
Elizabeth /Hamwell/
Its quite likely that I got these names from some source so poor that I
deigned to list it, such as (A) the Ancestral File, (B) Patron Sheet submissions to
the IGI or (C) One World Tree.
Typically I will add these to my file, so that I can attempt to track down
Better sources for the claimed ancestry. Unfortunately I have a few thousand of
these yet to track down so I'm a bit behind. But perhaps with the names,
someone can at least find where they came from and we can proceed with a better
citation.
By the way this Robert Apyrce had as his maternal grandfather
Richard /Bray/ of Eaton-Bray, Physician to Henry VI
who is buried at Worcester Cathedral
And here we are again back on track with a citation of
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... bray01.htm
and
http://www.genealogics.org
Will Johnson
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Simon de Montfort and the Albigensian Crusade
Well, anyone legitimately descended from Edward IV is a descendent of Simon
de Montfort, Earl of Leicester, died 1218.
Some of them must have wound up in Yorkshire.
DSH
"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:eqdmtj$8n1$2@mouse.otenet.gr...
de Montfort, Earl of Leicester, died 1218.
Some of them must have wound up in Yorkshire.
DSH
"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:eqdmtj$8n1$2@mouse.otenet.gr...
benjo maso wrote:
Among the crusaders there were many Germans (`Germans, Bavarians and
Saxons'), also Frisians, Flemish and Italians. There were also a lot of
crusaders from Normandy, and because many of them had close ties with
England, it's quite possible that some of their descendants are living in
Yorkshire.
Any sources for how I can find out which ones?
-
Gjest
Re: George Washington's Maternal Grandmother
I've found two seperate ascents to Edward I so far
One through Margaret Boteler who m Lawrence Washington
The other through Margaret Windibank who m Robert Reade
Both of those women happen to co-incidently have Cecil numbers of 10
I haven't yet found the ascent to Edward III
One through Margaret Boteler who m Lawrence Washington
The other through Margaret Windibank who m Robert Reade
Both of those women happen to co-incidently have Cecil numbers of 10
I haven't yet found the ascent to Edward III
-
John Higgins
Re: Sir John Leveson of Haling
Perhaps you could share with us the source that has "messed up" this family?
In particular, who says that Sir John L. who married Frances Sondes WAS the
father of Sir John who mar. Christian Mildmay? The pedigrees I've seen for
the family list the two Johns in exactly the reverse sequence. Perhaps
you're confused by the fact that the younger John d. vp.
The elder Sir John did have two marriages, but the 2nd (not the 1st) was to
Christian Mildmay, and it was their son John who mar. Frances Sondes.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Sir John Leveson of Haling
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
In particular, who says that Sir John L. who married Frances Sondes WAS the
father of Sir John who mar. Christian Mildmay? The pedigrees I've seen for
the family list the two Johns in exactly the reverse sequence. Perhaps
you're confused by the fact that the younger John d. vp.
The elder Sir John did have two marriages, but the 2nd (not the 1st) was to
Christian Mildmay, and it was their son John who mar. Frances Sondes.
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Sir John Leveson of Haling
1) That the wives and family of Sir John are messed up.
2) That that Sir John Leveson who m Frances Sondes, could not be the
father
of that Sir John who m Christian Mildmay.
Christian Mildmay, daughter of Sir Walter Mildmay by his wife Mary
Walsingham
was certainly born by 1567 as her eldest son by her first marriage to
Charles
Barrett, Esq of Belhowse, Essex, towit Edward Barrett, Viscount Newburgh
was
born 21 Jun 1581.
Charles Barrett died 8 Aug 1584, afterwhich Christian married Sir John
Leveson of Haling and had at least one daughter Rachel Leveson who married
Richard,
1st Baron Newport by 1614. Rachel has to be born between 1585 and 1606 to
fit
these parameters, and I'm suggesting that *this* Sir John was not *more
than*
ten years older than his wife thus forcing the issue that his mother could
*not* be that Frances Sondes known to be the daughter of Margaret Brooke
herself
born perhaps around 1570
Now that we've established the complexity and unusefulness of the existing
guesses, I suggest rather, that Sir John Leveson of Haling *may* have had
two
wives. The first being Christian Mildmay by whom Rachel and Christian (at
least), and the second being Frances Sondes, by whom (at least) Frances
(who later
married Thomas Gower, 2nd Bart of Stittenham)
I'm looking at various sources to see if I can find anything which builds
or
destroys this theory.
Will Johnson
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-
Kaye Nightingale
Re: Rudolph KIFT c 1243
On Feb 8, 1:34 am, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
A cousin of mine found Rudolph KIFT (via a google search) and sent the
link for me to follow up so I'm afraid that, currently, I don't know
anything other than the link itself:-
http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/history/cotterell.html
I hope this is of some use to you.
Regards
Kaye Nightingale
In a message dated 2/7/07 11:26:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kayenighting...@madasafish.com writes:
"Circa 1243 - John fitz Geoffrey, lord of Kells, grants to William
Coterel
Is this the same person as
John FitzGeoffrey, Lord of /Shere/ d 23 Nov 1258
married Isabel /Bigod/ d 1252
?
Thanks
Will Johnson
A cousin of mine found Rudolph KIFT (via a google search) and sent the
link for me to follow up so I'm afraid that, currently, I don't know
anything other than the link itself:-
http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/history/cotterell.html
I hope this is of some use to you.
Regards
Kaye Nightingale
-
David Hepworth
-
David Hepworth
Re: FINE ROLLS ONLINE - HENRY III
I wanted to point out to members that although the transcripts are
limited to the early years, the Images section (http://
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/conte ... mages.html) contain
reproductions of all the years and you can enlarge the images due to
their high resolution so you can use them
Best wishes
david
limited to the early years, the Images section (http://
http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/conte ... mages.html) contain
reproductions of all the years and you can enlarge the images due to
their high resolution so you can use them
Best wishes
david
-
Gordon Johnson
Re: Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)
Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:
modern concept. Back then, it was a matter of using whatever spelling
would convey the way the name sounded to the scribe or clerk, and one
can find the same name spelled in several different versions on the same
page of a document!
Thus, the longer and more complicated-sounding a name, the more ways you
could probably spell it, and all were correct, for the time.
Even a simple name was affected. My mother's Scottish family surname of
Pert can appear as Peart, Pairt, and even Part, and in the early 1500s
the name Pertht is dubious, as it might mean Perth rather than Pert. And
before anyone says anything, the English Peart/Pert surname has so far
shown no link to the Scottish Perts. They seem to have derived from
different origins.
Gordon Johnson
I was trundling through the Cal Pat Rot, looking for Sprenchose references,
using the search string spr*n*h*.
It amazed me to find the name spelt in 23 different ways!
Is this a record?
MM
By the way, if anyone else is interested in this ancient, but defunct,
Shropshire family, I would be delighted to hear from them
** of course, the idea of a particular standard spelling of a name is
modern concept. Back then, it was a matter of using whatever spelling
would convey the way the name sounded to the scribe or clerk, and one
can find the same name spelled in several different versions on the same
page of a document!
Thus, the longer and more complicated-sounding a name, the more ways you
could probably spell it, and all were correct, for the time.
Even a simple name was affected. My mother's Scottish family surname of
Pert can appear as Peart, Pairt, and even Part, and in the early 1500s
the name Pertht is dubious, as it might mean Perth rather than Pert. And
before anyone says anything, the English Peart/Pert surname has so far
shown no link to the Scottish Perts. They seem to have derived from
different origins.
Gordon Johnson
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Two Giselberts, 10th century
Since I never received through the mailing list Stewart Baldwin's initial posting for this thread, but received Mississippienne's reply quoting the entire message, I am sending this as a reply to the following which has also not come through. I have received Peter Stewart's reply to the latter part of the following post.
Roger LeBlanc
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 02:25:55 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]
Certainly, ancestry was not invariably the source of names, but the
main exceptions tended to be either with children destined for the
church (e.g., Adalbero and Thierry among Sigefroid's children) and
among younger children who were (at the time of their birth)
considered less likely to inherit the principle lands. I don't think
this applies to the name Hermann, which arrived among the descendants
of Godefroid of Verdun because of his marriage to Mathilde, daughter
of Hermann Billung, and probably arrived among the descendants of
Frédéric "of Luxemburg" via his marriage to a Konradiner (in which
dynasty the name Hermann appeared several times). Also, the unknown
parentage of Sigefroid's wife Hedwig makes it difficult to rule out
possibilities with regard to the naming of his children.
I wouldn't argue as you have worded it above. Keeping in mind that I
don't claim to be an expert at Latin, my understanding of the
classical meaning of "patruus" is that it means "paternal uncle",
which I interpret in the wider sense of "father's brother", thus
allowing "maternal half-brother" as one possibility in addition to the
stricter "agnatic uncle". I definitely have company in this
interpretation. Parisse, Geldner and Settipani, for example, are all
obviously allowing this possibility in suggesting that Sigefroid was
the son of a third marriage of Cunégone (although I do not agree with
them on that particular point). In fact, at the moment, I do not
recall seeing the strict definition of patruus as meaning only agnatic
uncle as having been argued in the literature.
Stewart Baldwin
Roger LeBlanc
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 02:25:55 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
<p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]
... I do not consider that
ancestry is invariably the source of names - in the case of descendants of
Wigeric and Cunegonde, it seems that once a name had been used in the
family, from whatever source, it was likely to be taken up in other
branches, as for instance with Thierry and Hermann.
Certainly, ancestry was not invariably the source of names, but the
main exceptions tended to be either with children destined for the
church (e.g., Adalbero and Thierry among Sigefroid's children) and
among younger children who were (at the time of their birth)
considered less likely to inherit the principle lands. I don't think
this applies to the name Hermann, which arrived among the descendants
of Godefroid of Verdun because of his marriage to Mathilde, daughter
of Hermann Billung, and probably arrived among the descendants of
Frédéric "of Luxemburg" via his marriage to a Konradiner (in which
dynasty the name Hermann appeared several times). Also, the unknown
parentage of Sigefroid's wife Hedwig makes it difficult to rule out
possibilities with regard to the naming of his children.
The argument for Sigefrid as a son of Wigeric is not merely from onomastics,
since we have Gerbert's description of him as "patruus" to an agnatic
grandson of Wigeric. Unless you wish to argue that "patruus" meant a
maternal half-brother of the father instead of strictly an agnatic uncle,
there appears to be no room - or need - for speculation on this point.
I wouldn't argue as you have worded it above. Keeping in mind that I
don't claim to be an expert at Latin, my understanding of the
classical meaning of "patruus" is that it means "paternal uncle",
which I interpret in the wider sense of "father's brother", thus
allowing "maternal half-brother" as one possibility in addition to the
stricter "agnatic uncle". I definitely have company in this
interpretation. Parisse, Geldner and Settipani, for example, are all
obviously allowing this possibility in suggesting that Sigefroid was
the son of a third marriage of Cunégone (although I do not agree with
them on that particular point). In fact, at the moment, I do not
recall seeing the strict definition of patruus as meaning only agnatic
uncle as having been argued in the literature.
Stewart Baldwin
-
paul bulkley
Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 145
Dear TAF:
Your argument is totally absurd.
Paul Bulkley
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs.
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Your argument is totally absurd.
Paul Bulkley
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs.
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-
Gjest
Re: Katherine Harrington= Henry Halsall or Roger Hulton?
On Feb 6, 11:07 am, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Will,
The descendancy of Katherine Harrington to the Gregory family is in
a S.G.M. post of 4 March 2000 by "Mercat". This is part of the
Coddington article in T.A.G. vol. 38. There is much confusion as to
the placement of this Katherine in the Harrington pedigree. She is
of the Wolfege Harringtons , and is sometimes confused with the
daughter of a Sir James who is the great grandson of Sir James b. ca.
1375.
Can you provide an ascent for this katherine to her royal connection?
I do not yet have her in my database.
Thanks
Will Johnson
Will,
The descendancy of Katherine Harrington to the Gregory family is in
a S.G.M. post of 4 March 2000 by "Mercat". This is part of the
Coddington article in T.A.G. vol. 38. There is much confusion as to
the placement of this Katherine in the Harrington pedigree. She is
of the Wolfege Harringtons , and is sometimes confused with the
daughter of a Sir James who is the great grandson of Sir James b. ca.
1375.
-
Gjest
Re: Katherine Harrington= Henry Halsall or Roger Hulton?
On Feb 8, 9:36 am, j.joh...@gmail.com wrote:
Will,
I miss read your post and gave you the descent of Katherine Harrington
rather than the ascent. Mea culpa.
I don't have her pedigree available nor do I know if she has a royal
connection.
On Feb 6, 11:07 am, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Can you provide an ascent for this katherine to her royal connection?
I do not yet have her in my database.
Thanks
Will Johnson
Will,
The descent of Katherine Harrington to the Gregory family is in
a S.G.M. post of 4 March 2000 by "Mercat". This is part of the
Coddington article in T.A.G. vol. 38. There is much confusion as to
the placement of this Katherine in the Harrington pedigree. She is
of the Wolfege Harringtons , and is sometimes confused with the
daughter of a Sir James who is the great grandson of Sir James b. ca.
1375.
Will,
I miss read your post and gave you the descent of Katherine Harrington
rather than the ascent. Mea culpa.
I don't have her pedigree available nor do I know if she has a royal
connection.
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Plantagenet Ancestry
"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of pogueish
newsgroups.
We usually hit it a glancing blow, questions are asked -- some tentative,
partial, answers are given. Some stock quotations from the _Complete
Peerage_ are trotted out. Misimpressions are created and locked in and we
move on. Typical newsgroup behaviour. Similar to a singles bar, with hard
rock drowning out any serious conversations -- as the body exchange rolls
on. Vide the Saga of Hippo-Troll and "La Nilita" -- far more interesting
than the passion of _Tristan And Isolde.
Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete explanation.
So, in the spirit of Henry V [1387-1422] at Harfleur, "Once more unto the
breach, dear friends, once more; Or close up the wall with our English
dead!" [Henry V, III, i, 1-2.] I humbly provide the following explanation
of the History of 'Plantagenet' as a sobriquet transformed into a surrogate
surname. [N.B. Henry V is the 7th great-grandson of Geoffroi V 'le Bel',
comte d'Anjou et Maine.]
Geoffrey V 'The Fair' [1113-1151] Count of Anjou and Maine was Duke of
Normandy 1144-1150. Plantagenet, used as a surname, is commonly applied to
members of the Royal House of England between 1154 and 1485. Members of
that house were descended from the union between Geoffrey, Count of Anjou
and Maine, and The Empress Matilda, [1102-1167] daughter of the English
King, Henry I 'Beauclerc' [1068-1135] ---- he who supposedly died from a
"surfeit of lampreys" ---- and his first wife, Matilda of Scotland.
Although the practice is well-established, it has little historical
justification. The name Plantagenet seems to have originated as a sobriquet
or nickname for Count Geoffrey. It has variously been explained as
referring to his practice of wearing a sprig or branch of yellow broom
(Latin: [planta] genista; Old French: plante genêt) in his helm, or more
probably to his habit of planting brooms to improve his hunting cover.
[N.B. Birds will nest under the small broom bushes or shrubs and hunters may
hide behind them.] Both explanations may well be true ---- as they are by
no means mutually exclusive.
"Plantagenet" was not, by any means, a hereditary surname and Geoffrey's
progeny remained without one for more than 300 years, although surnames
became common outside the Royal Family.
Henry II 'Curtmantle' FitzEmpress [1133-1189] [son of Geoffrey and Matilda
The Empress] and his own sons, Richard I and John I, are now generally
styled by historians as the Angevin (from Anjou) kings. For want of a
better name, their successors, notably Henry III, Edward I, Edward II,
Edward III, and Richard II are still described as Plantagenets.
Henry IV, Henry V and Henry VI may properly be called the House of
Lancaster; while Edward IV, Edward V and Richard III constitute the monarchs
of the House of York. Edward V, of course, is a quite special case who
hardly "reigned" as king and reportedly died in the Tower of London at 12,
one of the two 'Princes in the Tower.'
The first official use of the surname Plantagenet by any descendant of Count
Geoffrey was in 1460, when Richard, 3rd Duke of York [1411-1460], claimed
the throne in the name of "Richard Plantaginet." [N.B. Yes, there was no
standard spelling of English in 1460.]
Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was Protector of England, Earl of March and
Ulster, and Earl of Cambridge. His attempts to gain power for his House of
York, coupled with many other personal, dynastic and historical factors,
precipitated the Wars of the Roses (1455-1485). The House of York was later
identified with the White Rose and the House of Lancaster with the Red Rose.
As noted above, Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was the first to adopt the
surname of Plantagenet.
The legitimate male issue, in the agnatic line, of Count Geoffrey
'Plantagenet' and Matilda The Empress became extinct with the death, in
1499, of Edward, [1475-1499] 18th Earl of Warwick, grandson of Richard, 3rd
Duke of York.
He was the son of George [1449-1478], Duke of Clarence, who allegedly met
his end in the Tower of London as did his son, but George was supposedly
drowned in the famous butt of Malmsey. The Madeira Wine, "Duke of Clarence"
is named after this event. It is quite palatable, with good body and a bit
of a nose.
Henry VII resented Edward, 18th Earl of Warwick's proximity to the throne
and he was executed at the Tower of London on 28 Nov 1499. Edward was
imprisoned for many years and not allowed to have a tutor, according to some
accounts. Therefore, Henry VII allegedly kept him ignorant and
uneducated -- by design. Clever fellow -- and Machiavellian Prince
indeed -- was that rogue Henry Tudor.
Vide the second edition of George Edward Cokayne's [1825-1911] _The Complete
Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom,
Extant, Extinct or Dormant_; Microprint Edition (half-size in 6 volumes,
condensed from 13); 26 cm; LOC CS421 .C7 1982; Dewey # 929.7/2 19; ISBN
(set) 0904387828; Nobility -- British Isles [First Edition: (1887-1898);
Second Edition (1910-1959). New York, Saint Martin's Press, 1984,
[Reprinted from the British (Alan Sutton Publishing, Ltd.) version] 13
volumes in 6; also, previously, Gloucester: A. Sutton, 1982 (also 13 v. in
6; 26 cm)
[The Sutton version is a reprint of the Second Edition], Volume I
(originally published in 1910), p. 183, note (c):
"It is much to be wished that the surname "Plantagenet," which, since the
time of Charles II, has been freely given to all the descendants of Geoffrey
of Anjou, had some historical basis which would justify its use, for it
forms a most convenient method of referring to the Edwardian kings and their
numerous descendants. The fact is, however, as has been pointed out by Sir
James Ramsay and other writers of our day, that the name, although a
personal emblem [N. B. Latin *planta genista* = broom --- DSH] of the
aforesaid Geoffrey, was never borne by any of his descendants before Richard
Plantagenet, Duke of York (father of Edward IV), [N.B. and also of Richard
III --- DSH] who assumed it, apparently about 1448. V.G."
"V.G." is Vicary Gibbs, one of the Editors of the Second Edition of the
Complete Peerage.
This is obviously a quite complex and multi-faceted account ---- subject to
differing interpretations and shadings. Corrections, additions and
clarifications are most welcome and should be posted to the newsgroup
soc.genealogy.medieval.
Copyright © 2000-2007 by D. Spencer Hines, All Rights Reserved
"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth.... This
is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond itself."
Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles" [c.1258-1264]
Illegitimis Non Carborundum.
"For by diligent perusing the actes of great men, by considering all the
circumstances of them, by composing Counseiles and Meanes with events, a man
may seem to have lived in all ages, to have been present at all enterprises,
to be more strongly confirmed in Judgement, to have attained a greater
experience than the longest life can possibly afford."
John Hayward, __The Lives of the III Norman Kings of England, William the
First, William the Second and Henry I__, London, 1612, Preface
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Fortem Posce Animum
Deus Vult
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
Pax Vobiscum
Sholem Aleichem
newsgroups.
We usually hit it a glancing blow, questions are asked -- some tentative,
partial, answers are given. Some stock quotations from the _Complete
Peerage_ are trotted out. Misimpressions are created and locked in and we
move on. Typical newsgroup behaviour. Similar to a singles bar, with hard
rock drowning out any serious conversations -- as the body exchange rolls
on. Vide the Saga of Hippo-Troll and "La Nilita" -- far more interesting
than the passion of _Tristan And Isolde.
Gentle Readers and Serious Scholars deserve a more complete explanation.
So, in the spirit of Henry V [1387-1422] at Harfleur, "Once more unto the
breach, dear friends, once more; Or close up the wall with our English
dead!" [Henry V, III, i, 1-2.] I humbly provide the following explanation
of the History of 'Plantagenet' as a sobriquet transformed into a surrogate
surname. [N.B. Henry V is the 7th great-grandson of Geoffroi V 'le Bel',
comte d'Anjou et Maine.]
Geoffrey V 'The Fair' [1113-1151] Count of Anjou and Maine was Duke of
Normandy 1144-1150. Plantagenet, used as a surname, is commonly applied to
members of the Royal House of England between 1154 and 1485. Members of
that house were descended from the union between Geoffrey, Count of Anjou
and Maine, and The Empress Matilda, [1102-1167] daughter of the English
King, Henry I 'Beauclerc' [1068-1135] ---- he who supposedly died from a
"surfeit of lampreys" ---- and his first wife, Matilda of Scotland.
Although the practice is well-established, it has little historical
justification. The name Plantagenet seems to have originated as a sobriquet
or nickname for Count Geoffrey. It has variously been explained as
referring to his practice of wearing a sprig or branch of yellow broom
(Latin: [planta] genista; Old French: plante genêt) in his helm, or more
probably to his habit of planting brooms to improve his hunting cover.
[N.B. Birds will nest under the small broom bushes or shrubs and hunters may
hide behind them.] Both explanations may well be true ---- as they are by
no means mutually exclusive.
"Plantagenet" was not, by any means, a hereditary surname and Geoffrey's
progeny remained without one for more than 300 years, although surnames
became common outside the Royal Family.
Henry II 'Curtmantle' FitzEmpress [1133-1189] [son of Geoffrey and Matilda
The Empress] and his own sons, Richard I and John I, are now generally
styled by historians as the Angevin (from Anjou) kings. For want of a
better name, their successors, notably Henry III, Edward I, Edward II,
Edward III, and Richard II are still described as Plantagenets.
Henry IV, Henry V and Henry VI may properly be called the House of
Lancaster; while Edward IV, Edward V and Richard III constitute the monarchs
of the House of York. Edward V, of course, is a quite special case who
hardly "reigned" as king and reportedly died in the Tower of London at 12,
one of the two 'Princes in the Tower.'
The first official use of the surname Plantagenet by any descendant of Count
Geoffrey was in 1460, when Richard, 3rd Duke of York [1411-1460], claimed
the throne in the name of "Richard Plantaginet." [N.B. Yes, there was no
standard spelling of English in 1460.]
Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was Protector of England, Earl of March and
Ulster, and Earl of Cambridge. His attempts to gain power for his House of
York, coupled with many other personal, dynastic and historical factors,
precipitated the Wars of the Roses (1455-1485). The House of York was later
identified with the White Rose and the House of Lancaster with the Red Rose.
As noted above, Richard, 3rd Duke of York, was the first to adopt the
surname of Plantagenet.
The legitimate male issue, in the agnatic line, of Count Geoffrey
'Plantagenet' and Matilda The Empress became extinct with the death, in
1499, of Edward, [1475-1499] 18th Earl of Warwick, grandson of Richard, 3rd
Duke of York.
He was the son of George [1449-1478], Duke of Clarence, who allegedly met
his end in the Tower of London as did his son, but George was supposedly
drowned in the famous butt of Malmsey. The Madeira Wine, "Duke of Clarence"
is named after this event. It is quite palatable, with good body and a bit
of a nose.
Henry VII resented Edward, 18th Earl of Warwick's proximity to the throne
and he was executed at the Tower of London on 28 Nov 1499. Edward was
imprisoned for many years and not allowed to have a tutor, according to some
accounts. Therefore, Henry VII allegedly kept him ignorant and
uneducated -- by design. Clever fellow -- and Machiavellian Prince
indeed -- was that rogue Henry Tudor.
Vide the second edition of George Edward Cokayne's [1825-1911] _The Complete
Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom,
Extant, Extinct or Dormant_; Microprint Edition (half-size in 6 volumes,
condensed from 13); 26 cm; LOC CS421 .C7 1982; Dewey # 929.7/2 19; ISBN
(set) 0904387828; Nobility -- British Isles [First Edition: (1887-1898);
Second Edition (1910-1959). New York, Saint Martin's Press, 1984,
[Reprinted from the British (Alan Sutton Publishing, Ltd.) version] 13
volumes in 6; also, previously, Gloucester: A. Sutton, 1982 (also 13 v. in
6; 26 cm)
[The Sutton version is a reprint of the Second Edition], Volume I
(originally published in 1910), p. 183, note (c):
"It is much to be wished that the surname "Plantagenet," which, since the
time of Charles II, has been freely given to all the descendants of Geoffrey
of Anjou, had some historical basis which would justify its use, for it
forms a most convenient method of referring to the Edwardian kings and their
numerous descendants. The fact is, however, as has been pointed out by Sir
James Ramsay and other writers of our day, that the name, although a
personal emblem [N. B. Latin *planta genista* = broom --- DSH] of the
aforesaid Geoffrey, was never borne by any of his descendants before Richard
Plantagenet, Duke of York (father of Edward IV), [N.B. and also of Richard
III --- DSH] who assumed it, apparently about 1448. V.G."
"V.G." is Vicary Gibbs, one of the Editors of the Second Edition of the
Complete Peerage.
This is obviously a quite complex and multi-faceted account ---- subject to
differing interpretations and shadings. Corrections, additions and
clarifications are most welcome and should be posted to the newsgroup
soc.genealogy.medieval.
Copyright © 2000-2007 by D. Spencer Hines, All Rights Reserved
"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth.... This
is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond itself."
Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles" [c.1258-1264]
Illegitimis Non Carborundum.
"For by diligent perusing the actes of great men, by considering all the
circumstances of them, by composing Counseiles and Meanes with events, a man
may seem to have lived in all ages, to have been present at all enterprises,
to be more strongly confirmed in Judgement, to have attained a greater
experience than the longest life can possibly afford."
John Hayward, __The Lives of the III Norman Kings of England, William the
First, William the Second and Henry I__, London, 1612, Preface
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Fortem Posce Animum
Deus Vult
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
Pax Vobiscum
Sholem Aleichem
-
taf
Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL Digest, Vol 2, Issue 145
On Feb 8, 9:09 am, paul bulkley <designecono...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Perhaps a more detailed critique of my post would prove helpful.
taf
Dear TAF:
Your argument is totally absurd.
Perhaps a more detailed critique of my post would prove helpful.
taf
-
Deirdre Sholto Douglas
Re: Plantagenet Ancestry
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
Why do the majority of your posts post twice?
Are you hitting the "send" button twice or is
there a glitch in your posting software?
Deirdre
"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of pogueish
newsgroups.
Why do the majority of your posts post twice?
Are you hitting the "send" button twice or is
there a glitch in your posting software?
Deirdre
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Plantagenet Ancestry
NO.
1. They are NOT the same post.
Ergo:
2. The MAJORITY do not.
DO Read More Closely...
Thereby:
Eschew Egregious Pratfall.
DSH
"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enteract@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:45CB7B92.AC9D99E6@rcn.com...
1. They are NOT the same post.
Ergo:
2. The MAJORITY do not.
DO Read More Closely...
Thereby:
Eschew Egregious Pratfall.
DSH
"Deirdre Sholto Douglas" <finch.enteract@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:45CB7B92.AC9D99E6@rcn.com...
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
"Plantagenet." This matter comes up regularly in a number of pogueish
newsgroups.
Why do the majority of your posts post twice?
Are you hitting the "send" button twice or is
there a glitch in your posting software?
Deirdre
-
grothenwell
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
On 8 Feb, 01:12, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Hi Will,
Came accross your post by accident as it wasn't with the earlier
thread.
Sorry for being a bit thick, but I am new to these forums. Can I ask
what confirmed the wife's name as "Bethoc", and where is the note from
Michael-Anne (in another posting?). Also I take it that SP says
"probably Beatrix of Angus"
Also that it confirms that the wifes name was "Bethoc"
"Anglicized to Beatrix" per a note which I think was by Michael-Anne
Also doesn't it say "probably Beatrix of Angus" ?
That's what I have in my notes as coming from SP
Will Johnson
Hi Will,
Came accross your post by accident as it wasn't with the earlier
thread.
Sorry for being a bit thick, but I am new to these forums. Can I ask
what confirmed the wife's name as "Bethoc", and where is the note from
Michael-Anne (in another posting?). Also I take it that SP says
"probably Beatrix of Angus"
-
Roger LeBlanc
Re: Consanguinity Conundrum: Bertha of Burgundy and Robert I
If there is validity to these speculations, perhaps the ancestry of
Hugues Capet's wife would be the most likely avenue to explore.
Roger LeBlanc
Hugues Capet's wife would be the most likely avenue to explore.
Roger LeBlanc
-
Gjest
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
In a message dated 2/8/07 12:44:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:
<< Sorry for being a bit thick, but I am new to these forums. Can I ask
what confirmed the wife's name as "Bethoc", and where is the note from
Michael-Anne (in another posting?). Also I take it that SP says
"probably Beatrix of Angus" >>
Here is what's in my notes on these persons
For Gilchrist "According to an old chronicle, he received the hand of the
King's sister in marriage... She, however, proved unfaithful to her marriage vow
and he caused her to be put to death" citing "The Great Historic Families of
Scotland, James Taylor, 1889." It doesn't name her at all.
For Marjory (Maud) his alledged wife "...this Maud does seem to be supported
- though only as a sister of William, not as the wife of Gilchrist - she is
referred to by CP vi 642 note m: "Maud, d. unm. in 1152 (Fordun [Scotichronicon
(ed. Hearne)], p. 451).""
However see also AF# 9FTG-98 and that she alledgely also married secondly
William Lindsay, Baron of /Luffnes/
which makes no sense in light of the claim that her first husband killed her.
For their alledged son
Duncan, 5th Earl of /Angus/ 1204-
see also genealogics.org for his dates, and descents etc. But his birthyear
is as far as I know unknown
I do not have the exact date of MichaelAnne's comments on "Bethoc" but the
entirely of the statement that I clipped without specific citation to
MichaelAnne was:
"There is no proven descent of the Stewarts from the earlier Earls of Angus.
Walter the Stewart (d. 1241) married a woman named Bethoc, whom the account
in Scots Peerage states was 'probably Beatrix of Angus' [2]; there is no
documentary evidence concerning Bethoc's parentage.
The alleged marriage of Walter the Steward (who d. in 1241 according to Scots
Peerage) to a daughter of an Earl of Angus is unproven; as the account
states, she was "probably Beatrix of Angus " [SP I:12]. Her name was Bethoc, which
has been 'anglicized' to Beatrix, but her parentage is unknown."
I then have the confusing note "MichaelAnne on Gen-Medieval-L calls her
Countess of Angus"
No explanation for where that came from
so take it for what it's worth.
Hopefully you can make lemonade out of the lemons.
Will Johnson
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:
<< Sorry for being a bit thick, but I am new to these forums. Can I ask
what confirmed the wife's name as "Bethoc", and where is the note from
Michael-Anne (in another posting?). Also I take it that SP says
"probably Beatrix of Angus" >>
Here is what's in my notes on these persons
For Gilchrist "According to an old chronicle, he received the hand of the
King's sister in marriage... She, however, proved unfaithful to her marriage vow
and he caused her to be put to death" citing "The Great Historic Families of
Scotland, James Taylor, 1889." It doesn't name her at all.
For Marjory (Maud) his alledged wife "...this Maud does seem to be supported
- though only as a sister of William, not as the wife of Gilchrist - she is
referred to by CP vi 642 note m: "Maud, d. unm. in 1152 (Fordun [Scotichronicon
(ed. Hearne)], p. 451).""
However see also AF# 9FTG-98 and that she alledgely also married secondly
William Lindsay, Baron of /Luffnes/
which makes no sense in light of the claim that her first husband killed her.
For their alledged son
Duncan, 5th Earl of /Angus/ 1204-
see also genealogics.org for his dates, and descents etc. But his birthyear
is as far as I know unknown
I do not have the exact date of MichaelAnne's comments on "Bethoc" but the
entirely of the statement that I clipped without specific citation to
MichaelAnne was:
"There is no proven descent of the Stewarts from the earlier Earls of Angus.
Walter the Stewart (d. 1241) married a woman named Bethoc, whom the account
in Scots Peerage states was 'probably Beatrix of Angus' [2]; there is no
documentary evidence concerning Bethoc's parentage.
The alleged marriage of Walter the Steward (who d. in 1241 according to Scots
Peerage) to a daughter of an Earl of Angus is unproven; as the account
states, she was "probably Beatrix of Angus " [SP I:12]. Her name was Bethoc, which
has been 'anglicized' to Beatrix, but her parentage is unknown."
I then have the confusing note "MichaelAnne on Gen-Medieval-L calls her
Countess of Angus"
No explanation for where that came from
Hopefully you can make lemonade out of the lemons.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
In a message dated 2/8/07 12:30:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:
<< If Beatrix was Gilchrist of Angus's daughter, was Marjory (Maud) his
only wife and therefore the likely candidate for Beatrix's mother, or
did he have any other Marriages that you know of? >>
It is not known if the alledged Maud was his only wife.
You should note that whether Gilchrist had a wife, the sister of William the
Lion is itself suspect as well. One source says yes, one says no and that's
the way it goes.
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:
<< If Beatrix was Gilchrist of Angus's daughter, was Marjory (Maud) his
only wife and therefore the likely candidate for Beatrix's mother, or
did he have any other Marriages that you know of? >>
It is not known if the alledged Maud was his only wife.
You should note that whether Gilchrist had a wife, the sister of William the
Lion is itself suspect as well. One source says yes, one says no and that's
the way it goes.
-
Gjest
Re: St John of Fonmon and Bletsoe - Rodney of Somerset
In a message dated 2/8/07 10:01:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
david11000carca@yahoo.fr writes:
<< The reference to Weobley Castle links her to her
paternal grandmother, Elizabeth de la Bere. >>
Could you expand on this statement?
I don't currently have data that show that Elizabeth Delabere was associated
with Weobley Castle.
Thanks
Will Johnson
david11000carca@yahoo.fr writes:
<< The reference to Weobley Castle links her to her
paternal grandmother, Elizabeth de la Bere. >>
Could you expand on this statement?
I don't currently have data that show that Elizabeth Delabere was associated
with Weobley Castle.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
A site which may be used to link all the named petty nobility, Seigneurs of
Revel, Saint Genevieve, Sampierre, etc to their ancestors
http://web.genealogie.free.fr/Les_dynas ... rance/Dyna
stie_Flotte.htm
Will Johnson
Revel, Saint Genevieve, Sampierre, etc to their ancestors
http://web.genealogie.free.fr/Les_dynas ... rance/Dyna
stie_Flotte.htm
Will Johnson
-
grothenwell
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
On 8 Feb, 21:36, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Thank you Will. Very nice of you to spend time helping me, and
hopefully others.
Best wishes,
Grothenwell
In a message dated 2/8/07 12:44:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jbrec...@gmail.com writes:
Sorry for being a bit thick, but I am new to these forums. Can I ask
what confirmed the wife's name as "Bethoc", and where is the note from
Michael-Anne (in another posting?). Also I take it that SP says
"probably Beatrix of Angus"
Here is what's in my notes on these persons
For Gilchrist "According to an old chronicle, he received the hand of the
King's sister in marriage... She, however, proved unfaithful to her marriage vow
and he caused her to be put to death" citing "The Great Historic Families of
Scotland, James Taylor, 1889." It doesn't name her at all.
For Marjory (Maud) his alledged wife "...this Maud does seem to be supported
- though only as a sister of William, not as the wife of Gilchrist - she is
referred to by CP vi 642 note m: "Maud, d. unm. in 1152 (Fordun [Scotichronicon
(ed. Hearne)], p. 451).""
However see also AF# 9FTG-98 and that she alledgely also married secondly
William Lindsay, Baron of /Luffnes/
which makes no sense in light of the claim that her first husband killed her.
For their alledged son
Duncan, 5th Earl of /Angus/ 1204-
see also genealogics.org for his dates, and descents etc. But his birthyear
is as far as I know unknown
I do not have the exact date of MichaelAnne's comments on "Bethoc" but the
entirely of the statement that I clipped without specific citation to
MichaelAnne was:
"There is no proven descent of the Stewarts from the earlier Earls of Angus.
Walter the Stewart (d. 1241) married a woman named Bethoc, whom the account
in Scots Peerage states was 'probably Beatrix of Angus' [2]; there is no
documentary evidence concerning Bethoc's parentage.
The alleged marriage of Walter the Steward (who d. in 1241 according to Scots
Peerage) to a daughter of an Earl of Angus is unproven; as the account
states, she was "probably Beatrix of Angus " [SP I:12]. Her name was Bethoc, which
has been 'anglicized' to Beatrix, but her parentage is unknown."
I then have the confusing note "MichaelAnne on Gen-Medieval-L calls her
Countess of Angus"
No explanation for where that came fromso take it for what it's worth.
Hopefully you can make lemonade out of the lemons.
Will Johnson
Thank you Will. Very nice of you to spend time helping me, and
hopefully others.
Best wishes,
Grothenwell
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Simon de Montfort and the Albigensian Crusade
Of COURSE there was.
DSH
"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:eqg8f6$8d4$1@mouse.otenet.gr...
DSH
"Renia" <renia@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:eqg8f6$8d4$1@mouse.otenet.gr...
Well, I've learned that an Albigensian was burned in London in 1207. So
there must have been movement between Languedoc and England.
-
Gjest
Re: Sir John Leveson of Haling
In a message dated 2/7/07 8:34:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< Perhaps you could share with us the source that has "messed up" this
family?
In particular, who says that Sir John L. who married Frances Sondes WAS the
father of Sir John who mar. Christian Mildmay? The pedigrees I've seen for
the family list the two Johns in exactly the reverse sequence. Perhaps
you're confused by the fact that the younger John d. vp. >>
I'm not confused but see here
<a href =
"http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/zworking/leveson1.htm#dau3">Leveson</a> on stirnet.com showing "Sir John Leveson of Halling, son of
Sir John Leveson by Frances Sondes. Of the son they say 'This is possible the
Sir John Leveson of Malling who married' Christian Mildmay (dau of Walter
Mildmay of Apethorpe). These were parents to Francies (Leveson) Gower and
Christiana (Leveson) Temple"
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:
<< Perhaps you could share with us the source that has "messed up" this
family?
In particular, who says that Sir John L. who married Frances Sondes WAS the
father of Sir John who mar. Christian Mildmay? The pedigrees I've seen for
the family list the two Johns in exactly the reverse sequence. Perhaps
you're confused by the fact that the younger John d. vp. >>
I'm not confused but see here
<a href =
"http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/zworking/leveson1.htm#dau3">Leveson</a> on stirnet.com showing "Sir John Leveson of Halling, son of
Sir John Leveson by Frances Sondes. Of the son they say 'This is possible the
Sir John Leveson of Malling who married' Christian Mildmay (dau of Walter
Mildmay of Apethorpe). These were parents to Francies (Leveson) Gower and
Christiana (Leveson) Temple"
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Two Giselberts, 10th century
"Roger LeBlanc" <leblancr@mts.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.2944.1170953782.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
I'm not sure if you intended to add some further comment, Roger, but if you
did this was not transmitted with your post. Anyway, I will take the
opportunity & add to my earlier response to Stewart Baldwin:
This approaches a circular argument - you seem to be saying that although
ancestry wasn't the only source of names this is nonetheless to be credited
as the explanation of first recourse whenever some other obvious rationale
doesn't present itself. I don't agree with this: if we don't know where a
name came from we should seek some evidence or indication before attributing
any reason for it whatsoever, including ancestry. We simply don't have
enough data to conclude that inheritance was mainly involved, and even if we
did this can't be safely applied to specific instances. We know that some
names came into lineages from godparents - e.g. Bodo for the lords of
Metz-le-Comte (the family of later counts of Nevers). We have at present no
reliable way of quantifying the rarity or otherwise of this practice - and
again, if we did this might inform us about a general custom but woulod not
tell us the facts about individuals.
Here you argument is getting more round: the Konradian wife of Frederic
came, according to most reconstructions, from a branch of that family where
the names Konrad and Hermann did not appear. As to Thierry (above), I
suggested that this name was used in another branch of the Wigeric lineage
from where it first occurred - "it seems that once a name had been used in
the family, from whatever source, it was likely to be taken up in other
branches, as for instance with Thierry and Hermann" - so I can't see how the
discussion is advanced by attribubting candidature in the Church as the
source in this particular case: my point was about its repetition, not its
first appearance. The name Thierry was also given to the first cousin of
Sigefrid's son who became bishop of Metz, that is to Frederic's son and
successor as count of Bar and duke of Upper Lorraine. This Thierry's brother
Adalbero was destined for the Curch (like, I think, all the Adalberos in the
family) and became bishop of Metz. Is there a source stating that this was
the reason also for the naming of Frederic's son Thierry? Then what about
the various other Thierrys descended from Sigefrid who were not Churchmen?
My view is that once a name came to be used in the within this agnatic
kinship, it was evidently considered suitable for others who had no Thierry
amongst their ancestors.
Peter Stewart
news:mailman.2944.1170953782.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Since I never received through the mailing list Stewart Baldwin's initial
posting for this thread, but received Mississippienne's reply quoting the
entire message, I am sending this as a reply to the following which has
also not come through. I have received Peter Stewart's reply to the latter
part of the following post.
Roger LeBlanc
I'm not sure if you intended to add some further comment, Roger, but if you
did this was not transmitted with your post. Anyway, I will take the
opportunity & add to my earlier response to Stewart Baldwin:
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 02:25:55 GMT, "Peter Stewart"
p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]
... I do not consider that ancestry is invariably the source of names -
in the case of descendants of Wigeric and Cunegonde, it seems that once a
name had been used in the family, from whatever source, it was likely to
be taken up in other branches, as for instance with Thierry and Hermann.
Certainly, ancestry was not invariably the source of names, but the
main exceptions tended to be either with children destined for the
church (e.g., Adalbero and Thierry among Sigefroid's children) and
among younger children who were (at the time of their birth)
considered less likely to inherit the principle lands.
This approaches a circular argument - you seem to be saying that although
ancestry wasn't the only source of names this is nonetheless to be credited
as the explanation of first recourse whenever some other obvious rationale
doesn't present itself. I don't agree with this: if we don't know where a
name came from we should seek some evidence or indication before attributing
any reason for it whatsoever, including ancestry. We simply don't have
enough data to conclude that inheritance was mainly involved, and even if we
did this can't be safely applied to specific instances. We know that some
names came into lineages from godparents - e.g. Bodo for the lords of
Metz-le-Comte (the family of later counts of Nevers). We have at present no
reliable way of quantifying the rarity or otherwise of this practice - and
again, if we did this might inform us about a general custom but woulod not
tell us the facts about individuals.
I don't think
this applies to the name Hermann, which arrived among the descendants
of Godefroid of Verdun because of his marriage to Mathilde, daughter
of Hermann Billung, and probably arrived among the descendants of
Frédéric "of Luxemburg" via his marriage to a Konradiner (in which
dynasty the name Hermann appeared several times). Also, the unknown
parentage of Sigefroid's wife Hedwig makes it difficult to rule out
possibilities with regard to the naming of his children.
Here you argument is getting more round: the Konradian wife of Frederic
came, according to most reconstructions, from a branch of that family where
the names Konrad and Hermann did not appear. As to Thierry (above), I
suggested that this name was used in another branch of the Wigeric lineage
from where it first occurred - "it seems that once a name had been used in
the family, from whatever source, it was likely to be taken up in other
branches, as for instance with Thierry and Hermann" - so I can't see how the
discussion is advanced by attribubting candidature in the Church as the
source in this particular case: my point was about its repetition, not its
first appearance. The name Thierry was also given to the first cousin of
Sigefrid's son who became bishop of Metz, that is to Frederic's son and
successor as count of Bar and duke of Upper Lorraine. This Thierry's brother
Adalbero was destined for the Curch (like, I think, all the Adalberos in the
family) and became bishop of Metz. Is there a source stating that this was
the reason also for the naming of Frederic's son Thierry? Then what about
the various other Thierrys descended from Sigefrid who were not Churchmen?
My view is that once a name came to be used in the within this agnatic
kinship, it was evidently considered suitable for others who had no Thierry
amongst their ancestors.
Peter Stewart
-
The Highlander
Re: Plantagenet Ancestry
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:52:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
Reading even one of your posts takes one to new depths of sheer
boredom and reinforces one's lack of any expectation of credibility.
To suggest that we read your secondary posts in the hope of spotting a
new niblet of information defies all commonsense, apart from those
whose taste for masochism has run amuck.
It's not as though your name is linked with academic or intellectual
achievement. The overriding impression is more one of self-promotion
and uncontrollable ego; let alone the insane clichés sprinkled like
cats marking territory at the arse-end of every post you have ever
excreted here. The overriding impression is one of monstrous dung
deposits from the rotting bowels of a decaying dinosaur.
The Highlander
Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
NO.
1. They are NOT the same post.
Ergo:
2. The MAJORITY do not.
DO Read More Closely...
Thereby:
Eschew Egregious Pratfall.
DSH
Reading even one of your posts takes one to new depths of sheer
boredom and reinforces one's lack of any expectation of credibility.
To suggest that we read your secondary posts in the hope of spotting a
new niblet of information defies all commonsense, apart from those
whose taste for masochism has run amuck.
It's not as though your name is linked with academic or intellectual
achievement. The overriding impression is more one of self-promotion
and uncontrollable ego; let alone the insane clichés sprinkled like
cats marking territory at the arse-end of every post you have ever
excreted here. The overriding impression is one of monstrous dung
deposits from the rotting bowels of a decaying dinosaur.
The Highlander
Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
-
Gjest
Re: St John of Fonmon and Bletsoe - Rodney of Somerset
On Feb 8, 10:19 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
Hi Will
There are a couple of old threads in the archives detailing the St
John marriage to Elizabeth de la Bere, where the de la Bere family is
referred to as "of Weobley". There are numerous general references
online to Weobley Castle having been
built by the de la Bere family in the 14th century.
Agnes Rodney, daughter of Sir John St John, son of Elizabeth de la
Bere, was "of Wybley Castle" in her will.
I don't think that there seems to be any doubt that the de la Beres
were of Weobley Castle. That Elizabeth de la Bere's granddaughter made
her will there, and probably died there, for me associates Elizabeth
with the rest of the Weobley de la Bere family.
Or am I assuming too much?
Regards
David
In a message dated 2/8/07 10:01:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
david11000ca...@yahoo.fr writes:
The reference to Weobley Castle links her to her
paternal grandmother, Elizabeth de la Bere.
Could you expand on this statement?
I don't currently have data that show that Elizabeth Delabere was associated
with Weobley Castle.
Thanks
Will Johnson
Hi Will
There are a couple of old threads in the archives detailing the St
John marriage to Elizabeth de la Bere, where the de la Bere family is
referred to as "of Weobley". There are numerous general references
online to Weobley Castle having been
built by the de la Bere family in the 14th century.
Agnes Rodney, daughter of Sir John St John, son of Elizabeth de la
Bere, was "of Wybley Castle" in her will.
I don't think that there seems to be any doubt that the de la Beres
were of Weobley Castle. That Elizabeth de la Bere's granddaughter made
her will there, and probably died there, for me associates Elizabeth
with the rest of the Weobley de la Bere family.
Or am I assuming too much?
Regards
David
-
Gjest
Re: Two Giselberts, 10th century
In a message dated 2/8/07 4:01:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< We know that some
names came into lineages from godparents >>
Sometimes people were named as a form of flattery to the ruler of the area
and time.
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< We know that some
names came into lineages from godparents >>
Sometimes people were named as a form of flattery to the ruler of the area
and time.
-
Peter Stewart
Re: Two Giselberts, 10th century
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2969.1170985593.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
That may be highly probable, but I can't think of a source that makes it
explicit for a particular person. Do you know of an instance from the
10th/11th centuries where this is made clear?
When I wrote "we know....", I meant this practice was definitely stated by
reliable sources rather than just supposed.
Peter Stewart
news:mailman.2969.1170985593.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
In a message dated 2/8/07 4:01:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
We know that some
names came into lineages from godparents
Sometimes people were named as a form of flattery to the ruler of the area
and time.
That may be highly probable, but I can't think of a source that makes it
explicit for a particular person. Do you know of an instance from the
10th/11th centuries where this is made clear?
When I wrote "we know....", I meant this practice was definitely stated by
reliable sources rather than just supposed.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: Two Giselberts, 10th century
In a message dated 2/8/07 6:29:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< That may be highly probable, but I can't think of a source that makes it
explicit for a particular person. Do you know of an instance from the
10th/11th centuries where this is made clear? >>
Not I said the duck. It's out of my depth.
But I know of an example from sometime around the year zero.
I think it was even mentioned in passing on this group a year or so ago that
Herod named a daughter Julia even though he had no blood connection with the
Ceasars.
Will Johnson
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:
<< That may be highly probable, but I can't think of a source that makes it
explicit for a particular person. Do you know of an instance from the
10th/11th centuries where this is made clear? >>
Not I said the duck. It's out of my depth.
But I know of an example from sometime around the year zero.
I think it was even mentioned in passing on this group a year or so ago that
Herod named a daughter Julia even though he had no blood connection with the
Ceasars.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Pickering of Killington/Lascelles of Escrick (Brad Verit
Brad,
In your Pickering research have you found anything more about Margaret Norwood?
Yorkshire 1563 visitations p.250 shows Sir James Pykerynge Knight married to
Margaret daughter & heir of Sir John Norwood. Also shows Sir James married to
Mary daughter of Sir Robert Lowther.
There is no dates or time period on this Sir James but you say daughter in law
Margaret Lascelles died 1499 so Sir James would occur in early to mid 1400's.
Any thoughts you have on the Norwood marriage and when would be appreciated.
Jim Dempsey
In your Pickering research have you found anything more about Margaret Norwood?
Yorkshire 1563 visitations p.250 shows Sir James Pykerynge Knight married to
Margaret daughter & heir of Sir John Norwood. Also shows Sir James married to
Mary daughter of Sir Robert Lowther.
There is no dates or time period on this Sir James but you say daughter in law
Margaret Lascelles died 1499 so Sir James would occur in early to mid 1400's.
Any thoughts you have on the Norwood marriage and when would be appreciated.
Jim Dempsey
-
Gjest
Re: Walter Stewart's marriage
In a message dated 2/9/07 11:25:57 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:
<< The best thing is that people like yourself and Will are willing to
help people like me who are just trying to get as much details as
possible. Thanks once more. >>
That's why more websites like the Henry Project are absolutely necessary so
we can give the known facts and arguments about each person.
There are other sites which give citations to actual primary documents and
even in some cases link images of those documents, but again it's a labor of
love and each person we *fix* only leads to another 20 people yet to be fixed.
Unfortunately each particular page, on each person, is very time-consuming to
develop. Just my research *so far* on the Rockefeller family has consumed
about 30 hours (all unpaid!), and I've only done a few of the people in-depth.
But at least it gives a place where a person can find the absolute known
facts and avoid all the undocumented, unsourced, uncited statements floating
around the internet.
Will Johnson
jbrechin@gmail.com writes:
<< The best thing is that people like yourself and Will are willing to
help people like me who are just trying to get as much details as
possible. Thanks once more. >>
That's why more websites like the Henry Project are absolutely necessary so
we can give the known facts and arguments about each person.
There are other sites which give citations to actual primary documents and
even in some cases link images of those documents, but again it's a labor of
love and each person we *fix* only leads to another 20 people yet to be fixed.
Unfortunately each particular page, on each person, is very time-consuming to
develop. Just my research *so far* on the Rockefeller family has consumed
about 30 hours (all unpaid!), and I've only done a few of the people in-depth.
But at least it gives a place where a person can find the absolute known
facts and avoid all the undocumented, unsourced, uncited statements floating
around the internet.
Will Johnson
-
Tony Hoskins
Re: Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150
I agree with Todd that the attempt to Normanize the origin of the name
Bulkeley is labored - and labored in the same fashion as one so often
has noted elsewhere; clearly 19th century genealogists particularly were
avidly hankering after not just Norman genealogical origins, but Norman
origins for what are certainly surnames of purely Anglo-Saxon origin.
The suffix "legh/ley" is so widespread and so demonstrably Anglo-Saxon -
meaning "field" - as to scarcely warrant discussion. The presence of a
bull on the family's coat of arms notwithstanding, a gut response to
this discussion would be to posit a quite prosaic origin for the name:
"the field in which bulls reside", for instance.
Oddly, a few years ago I disproved a supposed descent I believed I had
had from Peter and Grace (Chetwood) Bulkeley, only to a few months ago
discover I did in fact have a line to them, lurking back there all this
time, waiting to be discovered. Genealogy does occasionally provide a
windfall!
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
Bulkeley is labored - and labored in the same fashion as one so often
has noted elsewhere; clearly 19th century genealogists particularly were
avidly hankering after not just Norman genealogical origins, but Norman
origins for what are certainly surnames of purely Anglo-Saxon origin.
The suffix "legh/ley" is so widespread and so demonstrably Anglo-Saxon -
meaning "field" - as to scarcely warrant discussion. The presence of a
bull on the family's coat of arms notwithstanding, a gut response to
this discussion would be to posit a quite prosaic origin for the name:
"the field in which bulls reside", for instance.
Oddly, a few years ago I disproved a supposed descent I believed I had
had from Peter and Grace (Chetwood) Bulkeley, only to a few months ago
discover I did in fact have a line to them, lurking back there all this
time, waiting to be discovered. Genealogy does occasionally provide a
windfall!
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
707/545-0831, ext. 562
-
taf
Re: Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150
On Feb 9, 1:11 pm, "taf" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
Just to amplify, it is thought to derive from "bulluca-leáh".
There is a decent (though dated) AS dictionary at:
http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/index.htm
taf
On Feb 9, 12:29 pm, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
The suffix "legh/ley" is so widespread and so demonstrably Anglo-Saxon -
meaning "field" - as to scarcely warrant discussion. The presence of a
bull on the family's coat of arms notwithstanding, a gut response to
this discussion would be to posit a quite prosaic origin for the name:
"the field in which bulls reside", for instance.
This is, in fact, the general consensus for the origin of the name of
Bulkeley - Bullock field.
Just to amplify, it is thought to derive from "bulluca-leáh".
There is a decent (though dated) AS dictionary at:
http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/index.htm
taf
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Complete Royal Ascents
Of COURSE, all EIGHT descended from CHARLEMAGNE.
Just look for them.
DSH
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3005.1171060606.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Just look for them.
DSH
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3005.1171060606.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Today I've been working out the details for a new project, where I'm
looking
up every line of "people of interest" (to me) and attaching notes on each
of
their shortest royal ascents.
Everyone has 8 great-grandparents (sometimes not uniquely), and in some of
the people I've done so far, they have 3, 4, even 5 royal ascents through
these
8 great-grandparents. That is, 5 of their 8 great-grandparents, each have
a
royal ascent themselves.
My question today is, are their examples of people in the Medieval period
where ALL EIGHT of their great-grandparents, each, have a known royal
ascent?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Complete Royal Ascents
I found a six out of eight
Jeanne de /Lusignan/ d Abt 14 Sep 1323
Out of her eight great-grandparents we have ascents to
Philip I, King Of /France/ 1060-1108
Malcolm III, King of /Scotland/ 1058-93
Henry I, King of England
Robert I, King of France
Alan, King of Brittany
Stephen, King of England
Robert II, King of /France/
Six of her eight-greatgrandparents have royal ascents.
Not yet sure about
Hugh (J) X of Lusignan , Count of the /March/ d Aft 6 Jun 1249
and
Peter I of Dreux, Earl of /Richmond/, Duke of Brittany
Will Johnson
Jeanne de /Lusignan/ d Abt 14 Sep 1323
Out of her eight great-grandparents we have ascents to
Philip I, King Of /France/ 1060-1108
Malcolm III, King of /Scotland/ 1058-93
Henry I, King of England
Robert I, King of France
Alan, King of Brittany
Stephen, King of England
Robert II, King of /France/
Six of her eight-greatgrandparents have royal ascents.
Not yet sure about
Hugh (J) X of Lusignan , Count of the /March/ d Aft 6 Jun 1249
and
Peter I of Dreux, Earl of /Richmond/, Duke of Brittany
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Complete Royal Ascents
My first perfect eight
Maud de /Beauchamp/ d 1402/1403
who married Roger, 5th Lord /Clifford/
Every one of her eight great-grandparents has a royal ascent.
She has France, England, Scotland, Jerusalem and Wales (assuming you accept
the idea that the "King" of Wales can be considered "royal")
Even if you throw out Wales, that same great-grandparent has another ascent
to France anyway.
Her *shortest* ascent to royalty appears to be J6 to Jerusalem through her
maternal grandfather
Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of /March/ died 29 Nov 1330 Tyburn (hanged)
Will Johnson
Maud de /Beauchamp/ d 1402/1403
who married Roger, 5th Lord /Clifford/
Every one of her eight great-grandparents has a royal ascent.
She has France, England, Scotland, Jerusalem and Wales (assuming you accept
the idea that the "King" of Wales can be considered "royal")
Even if you throw out Wales, that same great-grandparent has another ascent
to France anyway.
Her *shortest* ascent to royalty appears to be J6 to Jerusalem through her
maternal grandfather
Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of /March/ died 29 Nov 1330 Tyburn (hanged)
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Complete Royal Ascents
Today I've been working out the details for a new project, where I'm looking
up every line of "people of interest" (to me) and attaching notes on each of
their shortest royal ascents.
Everyone has 8 great-grandparents (sometimes not uniquely), and in some of
the people I've done so far, they have 3, 4, even 5 royal ascents through these
8 great-grandparents. That is, 5 of their 8 great-grandparents, each have a
royal ascent themselves.
My question today is, are their examples of people in the Medieval period
where ALL EIGHT of their great-grandparents, each, have a known royal ascent?
Thanks
Will Johnson
up every line of "people of interest" (to me) and attaching notes on each of
their shortest royal ascents.
Everyone has 8 great-grandparents (sometimes not uniquely), and in some of
the people I've done so far, they have 3, 4, even 5 royal ascents through these
8 great-grandparents. That is, 5 of their 8 great-grandparents, each have a
royal ascent themselves.
My question today is, are their examples of people in the Medieval period
where ALL EIGHT of their great-grandparents, each, have a known royal ascent?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
Dear Douglas,
Interesting. Could Eustache have been known as Sanche
to his Spanish relatives ? In 1302 Isabelle, daughter of Philippe IV of France
was not yet Queen of England, and indeed only 10 years old. Sancho was the
name borne by the last members of Navarre`s original royal dynasty, which
Jeanne I, Isabelle`s mother was heiress to rhrough the intervening House of
Champagne. Thibaut I, King of Navarre had seven legitimate children and atb least
four illegitimate with a daughter Blanca ( by 2nd wife Agnes de Beaujeu
married to Jean I de Dreux, Duke of Brittany, plus daughters Beatrice, 3rd wife of
Hugues IV, Duke of Burgundy and Margaret, wife of Duke Frederick III of
Lorraine asa well as Kings Thibaut II (who had illegitimate issue) and Henri I of
Navarre.
A breif ancestry of Charles II, the Bad, King of Navarre runs:
1 Charles II , King of Navarre born 1361 died 1425
Parents: Charles I, King of Navarre born 1332 died 1387, Jeanne
of France born 1343 died 1373
grandparents: Philip III d`Evereux , King of Navarre born 1301- died 1343,
Jeanne II, Queen of Navarre born 1311 died 1349, John II, King of France born
1319 died 1364, Judith / Bonne of Bohemia born 1315 died 1349
Great grandparents : Louis , Count of Everux born 1276 died 1319,
Margaret of Artois died 1311
Louis X, King of France, Margaret of Burgundy, Philip VI, King of France,
Jeanne of Burgundy (sister of Margaret), John of Luxembourg , King of Bohemia ,
Elizabeth of Bohemia
2nd Great Grandparents : Philip III, King of France, Mary of Brabant,
Philip , Count of Artois, Blanche of Brittany, Philip IV, King of France,
Jeanne I, Queen of Navarre, Robert II, Duke of Burgundy, Agnes of France,
Charles, Count of Valois, Margaret of Naples, Robert II, Duke of Burgundy, Agnes of
France, Henry VII of Luxembourg, Holy Roman Emperor, Matilda of Brabant,
Wenceslas II, King of Bohemia, Guta of Habsburg
(Sources : Mac Lagan and Louda`s Heraldry of the Royal Families of
Europe (Navarre, France, Bohemia, Stirnet.com Blois 2
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Interesting. Could Eustache have been known as Sanche
to his Spanish relatives ? In 1302 Isabelle, daughter of Philippe IV of France
was not yet Queen of England, and indeed only 10 years old. Sancho was the
name borne by the last members of Navarre`s original royal dynasty, which
Jeanne I, Isabelle`s mother was heiress to rhrough the intervening House of
Champagne. Thibaut I, King of Navarre had seven legitimate children and atb least
four illegitimate with a daughter Blanca ( by 2nd wife Agnes de Beaujeu
married to Jean I de Dreux, Duke of Brittany, plus daughters Beatrice, 3rd wife of
Hugues IV, Duke of Burgundy and Margaret, wife of Duke Frederick III of
Lorraine asa well as Kings Thibaut II (who had illegitimate issue) and Henri I of
Navarre.
A breif ancestry of Charles II, the Bad, King of Navarre runs:
1 Charles II , King of Navarre born 1361 died 1425
Parents: Charles I, King of Navarre born 1332 died 1387, Jeanne
of France born 1343 died 1373
grandparents: Philip III d`Evereux , King of Navarre born 1301- died 1343,
Jeanne II, Queen of Navarre born 1311 died 1349, John II, King of France born
1319 died 1364, Judith / Bonne of Bohemia born 1315 died 1349
Great grandparents : Louis , Count of Everux born 1276 died 1319,
Margaret of Artois died 1311
Louis X, King of France, Margaret of Burgundy, Philip VI, King of France,
Jeanne of Burgundy (sister of Margaret), John of Luxembourg , King of Bohemia ,
Elizabeth of Bohemia
2nd Great Grandparents : Philip III, King of France, Mary of Brabant,
Philip , Count of Artois, Blanche of Brittany, Philip IV, King of France,
Jeanne I, Queen of Navarre, Robert II, Duke of Burgundy, Agnes of France,
Charles, Count of Valois, Margaret of Naples, Robert II, Duke of Burgundy, Agnes of
France, Henry VII of Luxembourg, Holy Roman Emperor, Matilda of Brabant,
Wenceslas II, King of Bohemia, Guta of Habsburg
(Sources : Mac Lagan and Louda`s Heraldry of the Royal Families of
Europe (Navarre, France, Bohemia, Stirnet.com Blois 2
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Complete Royal Ascents
Dear Will,
You shock me.
Peter de Dreux is a male line descendant of the Capet kings of France.
Hugh X de Lusignan descends from Berengar II, king of Italy; Heinrich the
Fowler Holy Roman Emperor; Robert I king of France, Charlemagne.
You have an eight out of eight. I did not check the other six but I am sure
you have it correct.
There is one question though. Alan, King of Brittany?
Alain I Le Grand, Duke of Brittany died in 907
Alain II, duke of Brittany died in 952
Alain III, Duke of Brittany died in 1040
Alain IV, Duke of Brittany died in 1119.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Complete Royal Ascents
You shock me.
Peter de Dreux is a male line descendant of the Capet kings of France.
Hugh X de Lusignan descends from Berengar II, king of Italy; Heinrich the
Fowler Holy Roman Emperor; Robert I king of France, Charlemagne.
You have an eight out of eight. I did not check the other six but I am sure
you have it correct.
There is one question though. Alan, King of Brittany?
Alain I Le Grand, Duke of Brittany died in 907
Alain II, duke of Brittany died in 952
Alain III, Duke of Brittany died in 1040
Alain IV, Duke of Brittany died in 1119.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Complete Royal Ascents
I found a six out of eight
Jeanne de /Lusignan/ d Abt 14 Sep 1323
Out of her eight great-grandparents we have ascents to
Philip I, King Of /France/ 1060-1108
Malcolm III, King of /Scotland/ 1058-93
Henry I, King of England
Robert I, King of France
Alan, King of Brittany
Stephen, King of England
Robert II, King of /France/
Six of her eight-greatgrandparents have royal ascents.
Not yet sure about
Hugh (J) X of Lusignan , Count of the /March/ d Aft 6 Jun 1249
and
Peter I of Dreux, Earl of /Richmond/, Duke of Brittany
Will Johnson
-------------------------------
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-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Complete Royal Ascents
Edward III of England, for one example, fits the bill.
All eight of his Great-Grandparents have descents from Charlemagne.
DSH
All eight of his Great-Grandparents have descents from Charlemagne.
DSH
-
Gjest
Re: Confucius' family genealogy may be the longest in the wo
Dear Tom,
I doubt even the Chinese have complete unaltered source
records back to the fifth century BC, though They claimed during their many
centuries of Imperial rule that the Emperors were forbidden to read their own annals
as transcribed by the court historians and Dynastic histories weren`t
compiled until that dynasty had been succeeeded by another.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
I doubt even the Chinese have complete unaltered source
records back to the fifth century BC, though They claimed during their many
centuries of Imperial rule that the Emperors were forbidden to read their own annals
as transcribed by the court historians and Dynastic histories weren`t
compiled until that dynasty had been succeeeded by another.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
-
graham@gmilne.demon.co.uk
Re: Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150
On Feb 9, 9:20 pm, "taf" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
It is quite clear that the name Bulkeley is derived from the old Saxon
term 'b_ll_ocks-leigh' meaning 'a load of old b_ll_cks'.
On Feb 9, 1:11 pm, "taf" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Feb 9, 12:29 pm, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
The suffix "legh/ley" is so widespread and so demonstrably Anglo-Saxon -
meaning "field" - as to scarcely warrant discussion. The presence of a
bull on the family's coat of arms notwithstanding, a gut response to
this discussion would be to posit a quite prosaic origin for the name:
"the field in which bulls reside", for instance.
This is, in fact, the general consensus for the origin of the name of
Bulkeley - Bullock field.
Just to amplify, it is thought to derive from "bulluca-leáh".
There is a decent (though dated) AS dictionary at:
http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/index.htm
taf
It is quite clear that the name Bulkeley is derived from the old Saxon
term 'b_ll_ocks-leigh' meaning 'a load of old b_ll_cks'.
-
Gjest
Re: Complete Royal Ascents
Thanks Spencer for directing me to Edward III.
What a mutt!
It was as if someone deliberatly manipulated the marriages to form a King who
descendend from every country in some way.
His great-grandparents brought in England, Provence, Savoy, Castile,
Pontheiu, France, Aragon, Hungary, Navarre, Dagsbury (in Germany?), Artois, Brabant.
Could you *get* any more cosmopolitan than his blood line? That's quite a
crew!
All four of his great-grandfathers were Kings.
Will Johnson
What a mutt!
It was as if someone deliberatly manipulated the marriages to form a King who
descendend from every country in some way.
His great-grandparents brought in England, Provence, Savoy, Castile,
Pontheiu, France, Aragon, Hungary, Navarre, Dagsbury (in Germany?), Artois, Brabant.
Could you *get* any more cosmopolitan than his blood line? That's quite a
crew!
All four of his great-grandfathers were Kings.
Will Johnson
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Bulkley Ancestors in Normandy 1050-1150
What is this original bloke trying to do, show that Bulkeley is a NORMAN
name?
Hilarious!
DSH
<graham@gmilne.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1171067756.424921.122400@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 9, 9:20 pm, "taf" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
It is quite clear that the name Bulkeley is derived from the old Saxon
term 'b_ll_ocks-leigh' meaning 'a load of old b_ll_cks'.
name?
Hilarious!
DSH
<graham@gmilne.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1171067756.424921.122400@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 9, 9:20 pm, "taf" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Feb 9, 1:11 pm, "taf" <farme...@interfold.com> wrote:
On Feb 9, 12:29 pm, "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote:
The suffix "legh/ley" is so widespread and so demonstrably
Anglo-Saxon -
meaning "field" - as to scarcely warrant discussion. The presence of a
bull on the family's coat of arms notwithstanding, a gut response to
this discussion would be to posit a quite prosaic origin for the name:
"the field in which bulls reside", for instance.
This is, in fact, the general consensus for the origin of the name of
Bulkeley - Bullock field.
Just to amplify, it is thought to derive from "bulluca-leáh".
There is a decent (though dated) AS dictionary at:
http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/index.htm
taf
It is quite clear that the name Bulkeley is derived from the old Saxon
term 'b_ll_ocks-leigh' meaning 'a load of old b_ll_cks'.
-
John Higgins
Re: Misunderstood terminology
Leo:
"Stemmata Chicheleana" is availble on CD-ROM from Archive CD Books, Rod
Neep's great operation in England. You are correct that it lists
descendants of the siblings (specifically the two brothers) of Archbishop
Henry Chichele (which descendants until the 19th century had a claim to
admission to All Souls College as "Founders Kin"), but it does not claim
that the Archbishop himself had any descendants. Nor does it trace his
ancestry very far, if even beyond his parents - and certainly not to Alfred.
I imagine that Mr. Golledge used the work to trace his ancestry to a
Chichele relative who was married to someone who theoretically could trace
his ancestry to Alfred.
Sounds like a case of careless journalism to me - even if vetted by English
Heritage....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:50 PM
Subject: Misunderstood terminology
(made by me for the website of Brigitte Gastel Lloyd) of descendants of Mary
Tudor, she was listed as a 15th generation descendant. However several
readers have "since claimed that she could not be related to Mary Tudor".
Confusion seems to have made people think it was Queen Mary Tudor, even
though the file has nor reference to Queen Mary Tudor or her husband King
Philipp of Spain. This lady was defintely a descendant of an aunt of Queen
Mary Tudor even though Queen Mary Tudor was not mentioned.
fascinating, until I checked one aspect.
Golledge."
of English history, would conclude for Henry Chichele to have had
descendants (at least legitimate ones) would have lived after, roughly,
1550-----but what about the founding of All Souls College, Oxford?
which does not allow married priests. Reading the entry in DNB it does not
seem likely that he had any children, legitimate or illegitimate. Did this
BBC news item perhaps mean that the "Stemmata Chicheleana" recorded the
descendants of the Archbishop's brothers and sisters? Has anyone seen this?
through the "Stemmata Chicheleana" for Mr. Golledge?
should go via the father or mother of Archbishop Henry Chichele. According
to DNB his father, on doubtful authority was a broker or a draper, and his
mother Agnes Pyncheon was a daughter of William Pyncheon who was
armigerous.............that sounds good.
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
"Stemmata Chicheleana" is availble on CD-ROM from Archive CD Books, Rod
Neep's great operation in England. You are correct that it lists
descendants of the siblings (specifically the two brothers) of Archbishop
Henry Chichele (which descendants until the 19th century had a claim to
admission to All Souls College as "Founders Kin"), but it does not claim
that the Archbishop himself had any descendants. Nor does it trace his
ancestry very far, if even beyond his parents - and certainly not to Alfred.
I imagine that Mr. Golledge used the work to trace his ancestry to a
Chichele relative who was married to someone who theoretically could trace
his ancestry to Alfred.
Sounds like a case of careless journalism to me - even if vetted by English
Heritage....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:50 PM
Subject: Misunderstood terminology
Not so long ago in Britain there was a court case involving an
aristocratic Lady. She was written up and reference was made to the file
(made by me for the website of Brigitte Gastel Lloyd) of descendants of Mary
Tudor, she was listed as a 15th generation descendant. However several
readers have "since claimed that she could not be related to Mary Tudor".
Confusion seems to have made people think it was Queen Mary Tudor, even
though the file has nor reference to Queen Mary Tudor or her husband King
Philipp of Spain. This lady was defintely a descendant of an aunt of Queen
Mary Tudor even though Queen Mary Tudor was not mentioned.
Today Steven Perkins made us aware of an article from the BBC news.
"Experts find alternative heirs". In this article one thing I found
fascinating, until I checked one aspect.
"Mr. Golledge traced his family back to Alfred the Great through the
"Stemmata Chicheleana" historical documents."
This sounds fair enough, but then :
"Published in 1765, they record all the _descendants_ of Archbishop Henry
Chichele, the founder of All Souls College, Oxford - who is related to Mr.
Golledge."
At least they said Mr. Golledge was related, not descended from. For
people, including myself, who have little detailed knowledge of many aspects
of English history, would conclude for Henry Chichele to have had
descendants (at least legitimate ones) would have lived after, roughly,
1550-----but what about the founding of All Souls College, Oxford?
The Dictionary of National Biography tells he was born about 1362 and died
12 April 1443. In other words he was an Archbishop of the Roman variety
which does not allow married priests. Reading the entry in DNB it does not
seem likely that he had any children, legitimate or illegitimate. Did this
BBC news item perhaps mean that the "Stemmata Chicheleana" recorded the
descendants of the Archbishop's brothers and sisters? Has anyone seen this?
A descendants list from about 1400 to 1765 is pretty amazing and would
help many people but does this lead to a descent from Alfred the Great
through the "Stemmata Chicheleana" for Mr. Golledge?
If we take this article seriously, ( and as it was vetted by "English
Heritage" should we?) the implication is that a line to Alfred the Great
should go via the father or mother of Archbishop Henry Chichele. According
to DNB his father, on doubtful authority was a broker or a draper, and his
mother Agnes Pyncheon was a daughter of William Pyncheon who was
armigerous.............that sounds good.
In my system, which does not say anything, there are no Pyncheons but CP
does mention Pincheons. I think this could be the same family.
Does anyone have more information which could lead to Alfred the Great,
but as importantly has anyone access to "Stemmata Chicheleana"?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-
D. Spencer Hines
Re: Complete Royal Ascents
You're Welcome.
DSH
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3014.1171068850.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
DSH
<WJhonson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.3014.1171068850.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Thanks Spencer for directing me to Edward III.
What a mutt!
It was as if someone deliberatly manipulated the marriages to form a King
who
descendend from every country in some way.
His great-grandparents brought in England, Provence, Savoy, Castile,
Pontheiu, France, Aragon, Hungary, Navarre, Dagsbury (in Germany?),
Artois, Brabant.
Could you *get* any more cosmopolitan than his blood line? That's quite a
crew!
All four of his great-grandfathers were Kings.
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Did Moriarty consult the Giffard pedigree in the 1566 Ox
In a message dated 2/9/07 11:56:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
<< 2. SIR THOMAS GIFFARD, Knight, born about 1345, died 1394; married
about 1361, Elizabeth de Missenden, who died 1367. He married 2d,
Margery----; 3d Sybil----. >>
I think it's possible this birth is too late see
The New England Historical and Genealogical Register, (ed.) Henry
Fritz-Gilbert Waters "Genealogical Research in England", contributed by G. Andrews
Moriarty, <a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?id=-AEOby-E5U0C&vid=0heeLhTq80-Vq8a94C&dq=gifford+barton%27s+farm&jtp=231">page 231</a>
"Aged twenty five years and more at IPM 1368/9"
but then
"Aged thirty years and more at IPM 1380"
So I'd say maybe he should be put back a bit to 1335/9
Will Johnson
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:
<< 2. SIR THOMAS GIFFARD, Knight, born about 1345, died 1394; married
about 1361, Elizabeth de Missenden, who died 1367. He married 2d,
Margery----; 3d Sybil----. >>
I think it's possible this birth is too late see
The New England Historical and Genealogical Register, (ed.) Henry
Fritz-Gilbert Waters "Genealogical Research in England", contributed by G. Andrews
Moriarty, <a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?id=-AEOby-E5U0C&vid=0heeLhTq80-Vq8a94C&dq=gifford+barton%27s+farm&jtp=231">page 231</a>
"Aged twenty five years and more at IPM 1368/9"
but then
"Aged thirty years and more at IPM 1380"
So I'd say maybe he should be put back a bit to 1335/9
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Did Moriarty consult the Giffard pedigree in the 1566 Ox
In a message dated 2/9/07 5:02:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, WJhonson writes:
<< "Aged twenty five years and more at IPM 1368/9"
but then "Aged thirty years and more at IPM 1380"
So I'd say maybe he should be put back a bit to 1335/9 >>
yes and that I can't do math...
So obviously his birth was something like 1343/50
Mea culpa.
Will
<< "Aged twenty five years and more at IPM 1368/9"
but then "Aged thirty years and more at IPM 1380"
So I'd say maybe he should be put back a bit to 1335/9 >>
yes and that I can't do math...
So obviously his birth was something like 1343/50
Mea culpa.
Will
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
In a message dated 2/9/07 12:55:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< father of Eustace ("que les
Historiens Anglais nomment mal Sanche ou Sanche d'Ambercicourt,") >>
Does this mean something like
"Who the English History names badly Sanche ?"
I'm very bad at reading French.
Thanks
Will Johnson
royalancestry@msn.com writes:
<< father of Eustace ("que les
Historiens Anglais nomment mal Sanche ou Sanche d'Ambercicourt,") >>
Does this mean something like
"Who the English History names badly Sanche ?"
I'm very bad at reading French.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: King's Kinsfolk: King Charles II of Navarre's kinsman, S
In a message dated 2/9/07 4:35:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
farmerie@interfold.com writes:
<< You are speculating that Eustace was related to Pain Roet, a Gascon,
and Sanche (Sancho/Sans) is a Euskaran (Basque/Gascon) name, so what's
the problem? >>
That his Gascon name was so unfamiliar to the English ear, the he changed it
to Eustache? Could the be possible?
Will
farmerie@interfold.com writes:
<< You are speculating that Eustace was related to Pain Roet, a Gascon,
and Sanche (Sancho/Sans) is a Euskaran (Basque/Gascon) name, so what's
the problem? >>
That his Gascon name was so unfamiliar to the English ear, the he changed it
to Eustache? Could the be possible?
Will
-
V. Chris and Tom Tinney,
Re: Confucius' family genealogy may be the longest in the wo
Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Thank you for your reply and other private response.
I am particularly interested in:
.. . .
"History" (shi or lishi) in Chinese seems to mean something a little
different.(5) In ancient China, shi refered first to an official
responsible for holding records of events. Later it came to mean both
the records of events and the events themselves.(6) In contrast to the
Western idea of history in which the present organizes the past, in
Chinese, history primarily means preserving records of the past. People
in China thus held a more subservient attitude toward the past than
people in the West. In imperial China, historians of each dynasty not
only made great efforts to preserve, annotate, and interpret records,
they also followed diligently the forms, styles, and moral principles
established in these early histories to compose their own histories. For
them, ancient histories stood for a cultural tradition that was always
impeccable.(7)"
.. . .
http://www.indiana.edu/~easc/resources/ ... 0c_mod.htm
Jewish record tradition was more like Chinese culture,
in that the religious beliefs were held to be impeccable,
with their contained genealogies. Has an evaluation been
made of all western ancient genealogies, to ascertain if
any additional compilations, or segments thereof, were not
more on the scale of impeccable transmission, rather than
only being composed out of later interpretations? Irish
records come to mind, inasmuch as they were necessary for
land transmission, a key factor in the continuation of
family continuity and legal social rule.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Who's Who in America,
Millennium Edition [54th] through 2004
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
Family Genealogy & History Internet Education Directory
http://www.academic-genealogy.com/
Dear Tom,
I doubt even the Chinese have complete unaltered source
records back to the fifth century BC, though They claimed during their many
centuries of Imperial rule that the Emperors were forbidden to read their own annals
as transcribed by the court historians and Dynastic histories weren`t
compiled until that dynasty had been succeeeded by another.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Thank you for your reply and other private response.
I am particularly interested in:
.. . .
"History" (shi or lishi) in Chinese seems to mean something a little
different.(5) In ancient China, shi refered first to an official
responsible for holding records of events. Later it came to mean both
the records of events and the events themselves.(6) In contrast to the
Western idea of history in which the present organizes the past, in
Chinese, history primarily means preserving records of the past. People
in China thus held a more subservient attitude toward the past than
people in the West. In imperial China, historians of each dynasty not
only made great efforts to preserve, annotate, and interpret records,
they also followed diligently the forms, styles, and moral principles
established in these early histories to compose their own histories. For
them, ancient histories stood for a cultural tradition that was always
impeccable.(7)"
.. . .
http://www.indiana.edu/~easc/resources/ ... 0c_mod.htm
Jewish record tradition was more like Chinese culture,
in that the religious beliefs were held to be impeccable,
with their contained genealogies. Has an evaluation been
made of all western ancient genealogies, to ascertain if
any additional compilations, or segments thereof, were not
more on the scale of impeccable transmission, rather than
only being composed out of later interpretations? Irish
records come to mind, inasmuch as they were necessary for
land transmission, a key factor in the continuation of
family continuity and legal social rule.
Respectfully yours,
Tom Tinney, Sr.
Who's Who in America,
Millennium Edition [54th] through 2004
Who's Who In Genealogy and Heraldry, [both editions]
Family Genealogy & History Internet Education Directory
http://www.academic-genealogy.com/
-
Sarah Krans
Re: Another gateway ancestor inquiry
Edward III - Phillipa of Hainault
John of Gaunt - Katherine de Roet (3rd wife)
Joan Beaufort - Ralph Neville (2nd spouse for both)
Richard Neville - Alice Montagu
Alice Neville - Henry Fitzhugh
Elizabeth Fitzhugh - Nicholas Vaux (2nd Husband)
Katherine Vaux - Sir George Throckmorton
Elizabeth Throckmorton - John Gifford
Through Katherine Vaux and George Throckmorton are found in Plantagenet
Ancestry. Elizabeth Throckmorton and John Gifford is found in "Throckmorton
Family History" by Frances Grimes Sitherwood.
Sarah
On 09/02/2007 21:37, "WJhonson@aol.com" <WJhonson@aol.com> wrote:
John of Gaunt - Katherine de Roet (3rd wife)
Joan Beaufort - Ralph Neville (2nd spouse for both)
Richard Neville - Alice Montagu
Alice Neville - Henry Fitzhugh
Elizabeth Fitzhugh - Nicholas Vaux (2nd Husband)
Katherine Vaux - Sir George Throckmorton
Elizabeth Throckmorton - John Gifford
Through Katherine Vaux and George Throckmorton are found in Plantagenet
Ancestry. Elizabeth Throckmorton and John Gifford is found in "Throckmorton
Family History" by Frances Grimes Sitherwood.
Sarah
On 09/02/2007 21:37, "WJhonson@aol.com" <WJhonson@aol.com> wrote:
What do you have for the ascent of this Elizabeth Throckmorton who m John
Gifford that connects her to Edward III?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Gjest
Re: Another gateway ancestor inquiry
What do you have for the ascent of this Elizabeth Throckmorton who m John
Gifford that connects her to Edward III?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Gifford that connects her to Edward III?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
Ian Smith
Re: Plantagenet Ancestry
In post heens2htkji5197nnvd0i4sd9ku3ve4vc7@4ax.com,
"The Highlander" (micheil@shaw.ca) shared this wisdom:
Lol! Particularly liked that last line.
"The Highlander" (micheil@shaw.ca) shared this wisdom:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:52:50 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
NO.
1. They are NOT the same post.
Ergo:
2. The MAJORITY do not.
DO Read More Closely...
Thereby:
Eschew Egregious Pratfall.
DSH
Reading even one of your posts takes one to new depths of sheer
boredom and reinforces one's lack of any expectation of credibility.
To suggest that we read your secondary posts in the hope of spotting a
new niblet of information defies all commonsense, apart from those
whose taste for masochism has run amuck.
It's not as though your name is linked with academic or intellectual
achievement. The overriding impression is more one of self-promotion
and uncontrollable ego; let alone the insane clichés sprinkled like
cats marking territory at the arse-end of every post you have ever
excreted here. The overriding impression is one of monstrous dung
deposits from the rotting bowels of a decaying dinosaur.
The Highlander
Faodaidh nach ionann na beachdan anns
an post seo agus beachdan a' Ghàidheil.
The views expressed in this post are
not necessarily those of The Highlander.
Lol! Particularly liked that last line.
-
Leo van de Pas
Re: Another gateway ancestor inquiry
What is happening? Too many interesting messages today
See below
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Krans" <sarah.krans@charter.net>
To: <WJhonson@aol.com>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: Another gateway ancestor inquiry
Cahiers de Saint Louis page 931. Shows Katherine/Catherine Vaux (died 1571)
married Sir George Throckmorton, of Coughton
they had (!!) 19 children, several died young even without a name. Child nr
10 is Elizabeth Throckmorton who married three times
(1) Jean Giffard (forgive those French) (2) Guillaume Hogens (3) Georges
Petta. On this page they are certain she had children by John Gifford but
ask whether there were children by the second and third husband.
Hope this helps?
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Krans" <sarah.krans@charter.net>
To: <WJhonson@aol.com>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: Another gateway ancestor inquiry
Edward III - Phillipa of Hainault
John of Gaunt - Katherine de Roet (3rd wife)
Joan Beaufort - Ralph Neville (2nd spouse for both)
Richard Neville - Alice Montagu
Alice Neville - Henry Fitzhugh
Elizabeth Fitzhugh - Nicholas Vaux (2nd Husband)
Katherine Vaux - Sir George Throckmorton
Elizabeth Throckmorton - John Gifford
Cahiers de Saint Louis page 931. Shows Katherine/Catherine Vaux (died 1571)
married Sir George Throckmorton, of Coughton
they had (!!) 19 children, several died young even without a name. Child nr
10 is Elizabeth Throckmorton who married three times
(1) Jean Giffard (forgive those French) (2) Guillaume Hogens (3) Georges
Petta. On this page they are certain she had children by John Gifford but
ask whether there were children by the second and third husband.
Hope this helps?
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
Through Katherine Vaux and George Throckmorton are found in Plantagenet
Ancestry. Elizabeth Throckmorton and John Gifford is found in
"Throckmorton
Family History" by Frances Grimes Sitherwood.
Sarah
On 09/02/2007 21:37, "WJhonson@aol.com" <WJhonson@aol.com> wrote:
What do you have for the ascent of this Elizabeth Throckmorton who m John
Gifford that connects her to Edward III?
Thanks
Will Johnson
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-
Gjest
Re: Another gateway ancestor inquiry
In a message dated 2/9/07 9:17:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< On this page they are certain she had children by John Gifford but
ask whether there were children by the second and third husband.
Hope this helps? >>
At least one child by this couple Elizabeth Throckmorton and John Gifford
should be
Chrisogena /Giffard/
mar
Edward /Grey/ of Byldwas, Co Saloppe
b Came of age in 1568
d Aft 20 Aug 1578
Chrisogena had a son
Edward /Grey/
b 1567/1577
who married a Miss Herbert daughter of
Edward /Herbert/ of Powis Castle d 23 Mar 1594/1595 by his wife Mary
/Stanley/
and then I lose track of any further descendents. See mar settl. below
Will Johnson
---------------------------------------------------------
Shropshire Archives: Moseley Collection
Reference Code: 2089
Moseley Collection
Creation dates: c1300-1911
Creator(s): Moseley family of Buildwas, Shropshire
MARRIAGE SETTLEMENTS, MORTGAGES, LEGAL PAPERS
Reference: 2089/4/1/1
Conveyance in trust
Creation dates: 20 August 1578
Scope and Content
1. Sir Edward Herberte of Hendon, co. Mydd.
2. Edward Grey of Byldwas, co. Saloppe'
Before marriage of Edward Grey son of 2. and a dter. of 1., Covenant of 2. to
convey to 1., Henry earl of Pembrok, Robert earl of Leicester, and Sir Robert
Throckmorton, by recovery before 29 September 1578 of barony and lordship of
Powys, the castle of Poole, the boroughs of Poole and llanvyllinge
[Llanfyllin], manors of Powys, Poole, Teirtre, llanerghe hudull [Llannerch-hudol],
Stratemarcell; Kerenyon, Meghen vchcoyd, Meghen Iscoyd, llanvillinge, Moghnante,
Ruerthe [Rhiwarth]. and Garthgelynnyn, etc. in Poole, Buttington, Gylsfield,
llanvrvyll [Llanerfyl], llangadvan, Garthbebyo, Llanvair, Llangunio, Castell'
Cayrynion, Llanvihangell', llanvillinge, llanveghen, llansanfraid, Llanwothyn
[Llanwddyn], Pennant, Hyrnante, llangynocke', llanyerhayder [Llanrhaeadr], Myvod,
etc., co. Mont.; and to levy a fine before 2 Feb. 1578/9 of same.
Covenant of 2. to levy a fine before Easter 1579 to same of manors of
Ponsbury and Charlton, co. Salop; Andever, co. Southampton; Dyppinge, co. Lincoln;
and Droytewiche, co. Worc., wherein Dame Jane, late wife of Lorde Powys, dec'd.,
has a freehold for life.
Detailed declarations of uses and provisoes, including covenant of 2. to
convey property late of abbey of Byldwas (excepting a rent of £13 6s 8d from
Harnedge Grange) to same trustees to hold to use of Edward Grey son and dter. of 1.
Provision for younger sons and dters.
Attached list of current leases of property at castle of Poole [Powis
Castle]. Kereynion [Caereinion], Teirtre, Llanvillinge and llannerchudoll.
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:
<< On this page they are certain she had children by John Gifford but
ask whether there were children by the second and third husband.
Hope this helps? >>
At least one child by this couple Elizabeth Throckmorton and John Gifford
should be
Chrisogena /Giffard/
mar
Edward /Grey/ of Byldwas, Co Saloppe
b Came of age in 1568
d Aft 20 Aug 1578
Chrisogena had a son
Edward /Grey/
b 1567/1577
who married a Miss Herbert daughter of
Edward /Herbert/ of Powis Castle d 23 Mar 1594/1595 by his wife Mary
/Stanley/
and then I lose track of any further descendents. See mar settl. below
Will Johnson
---------------------------------------------------------
Shropshire Archives: Moseley Collection
Reference Code: 2089
Moseley Collection
Creation dates: c1300-1911
Creator(s): Moseley family of Buildwas, Shropshire
MARRIAGE SETTLEMENTS, MORTGAGES, LEGAL PAPERS
Reference: 2089/4/1/1
Conveyance in trust
Creation dates: 20 August 1578
Scope and Content
1. Sir Edward Herberte of Hendon, co. Mydd.
2. Edward Grey of Byldwas, co. Saloppe'
Before marriage of Edward Grey son of 2. and a dter. of 1., Covenant of 2. to
convey to 1., Henry earl of Pembrok, Robert earl of Leicester, and Sir Robert
Throckmorton, by recovery before 29 September 1578 of barony and lordship of
Powys, the castle of Poole, the boroughs of Poole and llanvyllinge
[Llanfyllin], manors of Powys, Poole, Teirtre, llanerghe hudull [Llannerch-hudol],
Stratemarcell; Kerenyon, Meghen vchcoyd, Meghen Iscoyd, llanvillinge, Moghnante,
Ruerthe [Rhiwarth]. and Garthgelynnyn, etc. in Poole, Buttington, Gylsfield,
llanvrvyll [Llanerfyl], llangadvan, Garthbebyo, Llanvair, Llangunio, Castell'
Cayrynion, Llanvihangell', llanvillinge, llanveghen, llansanfraid, Llanwothyn
[Llanwddyn], Pennant, Hyrnante, llangynocke', llanyerhayder [Llanrhaeadr], Myvod,
etc., co. Mont.; and to levy a fine before 2 Feb. 1578/9 of same.
Covenant of 2. to levy a fine before Easter 1579 to same of manors of
Ponsbury and Charlton, co. Salop; Andever, co. Southampton; Dyppinge, co. Lincoln;
and Droytewiche, co. Worc., wherein Dame Jane, late wife of Lorde Powys, dec'd.,
has a freehold for life.
Detailed declarations of uses and provisoes, including covenant of 2. to
convey property late of abbey of Byldwas (excepting a rent of £13 6s 8d from
Harnedge Grange) to same trustees to hold to use of Edward Grey son and dter. of 1.
Provision for younger sons and dters.
Attached list of current leases of property at castle of Poole [Powis
Castle]. Kereynion [Caereinion], Teirtre, Llanvillinge and llannerchudoll.
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John Brandon
Re: Did Moriarty consult the Giffard pedigree in the 1566 Ox
yes and that I can't do math...
So obviously his birth was something like 1343/50
Mea culpa.
You do realize it's not necessary for you to comment on literally
every thread "just to put your stank on it" ... don't you?
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Gjest
Re: Pickering of Killington/Lascelles of Escrick
In a message dated 2/8/07 11:31:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
<< At least it rules out Margaret Lascelles being born to the couple
Robert Lascelles and Catherine Danby married in 1456, as Margaret
could not have been born after that date and be a grandmother in about
1485, when Sir Christopher Pickering was born. >>
I believe it was the son who Margaret married.
That is she married James who died in 1497 and then she died a few years later
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:
<< At least it rules out Margaret Lascelles being born to the couple
Robert Lascelles and Catherine Danby married in 1456, as Margaret
could not have been born after that date and be a grandmother in about
1485, when Sir Christopher Pickering was born. >>
I believe it was the son who Margaret married.
That is she married James who died in 1497 and then she died a few years later