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Bob Turcott

Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 31 jan 2007 23:04:54

WJ,

Heraldic referances to these names :

Sandret Jean-Baptiste, enregistré à Ornans, prêtre familier à Vuillafans
Sandret Normandie (JM31247)
Sandret (de) et Saudret Elie, écuyer
Sandret (de) et Saudret Jean, écuyer et Jean, écuyer, sieur de Bellevue

we have Sandret, Sausdret & Saudret all one interchangeable name, probably
due to mispelling
or changes in the name over various time periods. I have no reason to
believe non-interchangeabilty.

all best
Bob t.




From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:40:12 EST
In a message dated 1/31/07 8:01:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bobturcott@msn.com writes:

To all: I am researching Marguerite de Sausdret /Sandret
wife of Guillaume IV de Meherenc, sgr de La Conseillere.

Its quite possible that Marguerite de Sausdret /Sandret could be
connected
to

This all depends on whether you can actually connect the two names Sausdret
and Sandret.
It seems like that would be the first step. To establish the
interchangeability of these two forms.

Will Johnson

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Clagett, Brice

RE: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud S

Legg inn av Clagett, Brice » 31 jan 2007 23:32:21

Will Johnson, thanks for sharp eyes. Baldwin is correct, not Bernard.

I do not think Farnham has anything further on the Fitzpiers family.

-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:35 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Another Daughter for John Ferrers I of Tamworth & Maud
Stanley

In a message dated 1/29/07 12:58:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bclagett@cov.com writes:

<< The ipm of Bernard Fitzpiers of Glen- field shows that his daughter
and heiress, Joan, >>

Just to make sure I'm clear, you are here also correcting

Eric Acheson, 'A Gentry Community...' (2003) who on p. 231 states:
"Thomas Fouleshurst, esquire, of Crewe in Cheshire, arrived in
Leicestershire through his marriage to Joan, daughter and heir of
BALDWIN Fitzpiers of Glenfield ('Village Notes', II, p. 315)."
[emphasis mine]

Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 00:05:03

Thanks Leo I found the connection now from Meherenc to Henry I of England
(through one of Henry's illegitimate daughters)

Will

Gjest

Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 00:06:03

In a message dated 1/31/07 2:06:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bobturcott@msn.com writes:

<< Sandret Jean-Baptiste, enregistré à Ornans, prêtre familier à Vuillafans
Sandret Normandie (JM31247)
Sandret (de) et Saudret Elie, écuyer
Sandret (de) et Saudret Jean, écuyer et Jean, écuyer, sieur de Bellevue >>

Could you cite what your source is for the above?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: 1556 marriage record of Allen Clarke, ancestor of Barret

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 00:11:03

In a message dated 1/31/07 2:21:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

<< Westhall. >>

Could "Westhall" have been rendered "Wistow" by the mid-17th century?
I have a Barbara LOVE who married Henry Faunt, esq of Newton Harcourt
He is now called "Of Wistow" although I don't know how he got that.
Perhaps this Barbara was a heiress of that place?
If so there are descendents of this Love family for another two hundred years
or more.

Will

Gjest

Re: Re: John, Lord of Mawddwy/Mouthwy, son in law of Sir Fu

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 00:19:02

I promised to give the details of the descent of the lordship of Mowddwy, as
derived from the 1623 Shropshire visitation, pages 59-60, where the pedigree
is unhelpfully listed as "Borough of Dinas Mowthwy".
1. Hugo Borough miles, lord of Burgh upon Sands = ... daughter of Mowbray
1.1 Guido Burghe "qui vendidit baroniam de Burgh domino Darcy"
1.2 William Borough, lord of Midleton, knight
1.2.1 Hugo Borough, son and heir
1.2.1.1 John Burgh who married a daughter of Warde of Westmorland and had
issue
1.2.1.2. Hugo Borough, knight Lord of Dinas Mowddwy, Treasurer of England
+ Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of John ap William, lord of
Mowthwy: see below
[his arms are given as azure a chevron ermine between three fleurs-de-lis
argent, with a date of 1425]
1.2.1.2.1 John de Borough, knight
+ Jane, daughter and sole heiress of William Clopton of
Clopton, knight
[the line continues with Sir John's four daughters and coheiresses, all as
shown in my earlier posts]

The descent of Elizabeth, wife of Hugo of Dinas Mowddwy, supra, is given on
the same pages of the visitation as follows:-

1. William "4 filius Griff/Gruffyd ap Gwynwyn/Gwenwynwyn/Wenunwen ap
Owen/Owain Keuliok (Kevelioc), dominus de Powis H.2"
+ Margaretta, daughter and heiress ot Thomas ap Llewelyn/Lluellin ap
Owen/Owain ap Meredith/Maredudd ap Owen/Owain ap Gruffyd ap Rees/Rhys ap
Gruffyd/ ap Rees/Rhys ap Tudor/Twddur. prince of South Wales.
1.1 John ap William, lord of Mowthwy
1.1.1 Elizabeth, daughter and heiress (as above).

As I observed in an earlier post, it seems clear that the visitation, in
common with Camden's Britannia, has omitted at least one generation in the
Mowddwy descent. William, son of Gruffyd ap Gwenwynwyn, was one may suppose of
full age in 1290 (the date of the carve-up of Southern Powis). Yet his supposed
son John only died in 1403.
We could perhaps bridge this gap by ascribing the parentage of John to
William ap Gruffyd's known son Gruffyd, who did homage, perhaps as an infant, on
20th July 1302. By 1313 he was old enough, and brave enough, to besiege the
castle of la Pole (Welshpool) held by John Cherleton, husband of his cousin
Hawise "Gadarn". And he was still alive in 1343, when Sir John Cherleton the
elder was holding his wife Matilda prisoner at la Pole: see CPR for 6th November
in that year.
My conclusion would be that John (d.1403) was probably the son of this
Gruffyd. However, Brice Clagett, in private correspondence, proposes to insert a
second William ap Gruffyd, alias Willcock", as the father of John.
I would be glad to know whether colleagues have any views on this matter. It
is hard to suppose that Camden, who supervised the 1623 visitation, could
have overlooked two whole generations of the lords of Mowddwy, innit?
By the way, I have not yet seen evidence that there was a Hugh Burgh who was
treasurer of England, nor that there was one who was lord of Burgh on the
Sands: I had thought that Burgh was an Engayne/Trivers estate, inherited by the
Morvilles,
There is however a record in CPR of the appointment of a Hugh de Burgh as
treasurer of the exchequer of Dublin, dated 2nd March 1340. I wonder whether
this Hugh has been confused by Camden with a later Hugh?
MM

Gjest

Re: The Bonkil (or de Bonkil) family, ancestors of Stewart o

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 00:27:02

In a message dated 1/31/07 3:08:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< 1.1.1.1.1.1.1a.1a.1.1 Sir John Stewart
----------------------------------------
Occ: Earl of Angus

laird of Bonkil
created Earl of Angus ca. 1327 >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

CP i 153 says that he [John Stewart of Bonkyl, 1st Earl of Angus] was "...the
son and heir of Sir Alexander Stewart of Bonkyl, whom he succeeded in 1319"

What's the basis for saying he succeeded in 1319?
If we presume that he was "of age" that would push the chronology more than
you're allowing presently.

Will

Gjest

Re: Bohemian Raphsody?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 00:36:02

In a message dated 1/31/07 3:15:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

<< The only source that specifies Dubravka's family relationship is
Thietmar of Merseburg, who calls her sister to Duke Boleslav >>

What year was Thietmar writing this?

Gjest

Re: John, Lord of Mawddwy/Mouthwy, son in law of Sir Fulke C

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 01:34:02

Brice Clagett has convinced me that Camden, both in his "Britannia" and in
the 1623 Shropshire Visitation, has omitted not one but two generations of the
lords of Mawddwy. The confusion in Camden's mind has I believe arisen from
the fact that in the 14th century there were two distinct lords of Mawddwy who
could properly be described as " Gwilym ap Gruffydd".
Of these the elder was alive and presumably of full age in 1290, and was
surely dead in the early 1300s, when his son Gruffydd was suing for possession
of his lands of Mawddy.. But there must I think have been a younger William ap
Gruffydd, also lord of Mawddwy, who would (I suppose) have been the first
William's grandson, and who would I now think have been the father of John,
Fulke Corbet's son in law.
We should bear in mind that in the "carve-up" of 1290 Mowddwy had been
settled on Owain ap Gruffyd'ds younger brother William in tail male- he then
presumably being of full age.
Comparing the Shropshire visitation with the biography of Owen Glendower in
the Oxford DNB, we can see that the mother of Glendower was the sister of the
wife of a William ap Gruffydd, with an identical pedigree from ancient
Welsh princes. But Glendower was born in about 1359. It is I would think
impossible that he could have had a first cousin born 40 years or more before him,
son of his mother's sister. So there must have been a younger William ap
Gruffyd a couple of generations remote from the "carve-up" beneficiary. So I now
believe that John (Fulke Corbet's son in law) must have been the son of this
younger William, and therefore a first cousin of his contemporary Owen Gle
ndower.
Thanks to Brice Clagett for his help in driving me to this conclusion.
MM

Gjest

Re: [OT] Keven Randolph Hearst

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 03:22:02

The initial part of my research complete, shows that Kevin's mother does not
appear to have been a daughter of Georgia Rockefeller.

I have posted a reference to the NYT article of 1960 on the birth of their
"second child" [as stated] which was a boy, their first also a boy was also
reported in the NYT. So there is no room for Kevin's mother being born in 1958.

So that's the first leg cut out.
Will

Carole T

Blanche as Regent {was Genealogy " A coat-hanger for histor

Legg inn av Carole T » 01 feb 2007 04:41:57

Hello Leo,
< snip> "...> We are talking about 1254, and Blanche of Castile,
Queen-Regent of France 1226-1236, died 27 November 1252.
Does anyone know what is wrong? Friedrich II died in 1250 and Blanche
ceased to be regent in 1236, did the dispute between the pope and Conrad

start earlier? Or was Louis IX (king from 1226, ruler 1236-1270) out of the
country and there was a regent? Was it his wife Marguerite de Provence who
dared defy the pope?..."

Quoting from "Great Dynasties" The Capets by Regine Pernoud (a former
curator of the Rheims Museum and the Museum of French History in the
National Archives in Paris)
re Louis IX p. 22 " This was also a period of peace and prosperity, for
which the realm was indebted not only to the King who, in his own lifetime,
was to be known by the people as 'the Holy King' but also to his mother,
Blanche. She governed on behalf of her son until he was of an age to do so
himself, and both by her actions and by her counsel she contributed to the
smooth running of the kingdom.

In fact, she became Regent again in 1248, when Louis IX, following in the
footsteps of his ancestors, embarked with his wife for the Holy Land, at
Aigues-Mortes, the port he had created specially for that purpose. Blanche
died in 1252, without seeing her son again; but at least she had left him a
realm which was intact and in good order. " <unquote>

Regards,

Carole (in Newcastle)


----- Original Message -----
From: Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:01 PM
Subject: Genealogy " A coat-hanger for history"

Gjest

Re: Blanche as Regent {was Genealogy " A coat-hanger for hi

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 05:19:02

In my files I have this which is apparently from the wikipedia article on St
Louis
"Louis's piety and kindness towards the poor were much celebrated. He went on
crusade twice, in 1248 (Seventh Crusade) and then in 1270 (Eighth Crusade).
Both crusades were total failures. After initial success in his first attempt,
Louis's army was met by overwhelming resistance from the Egyptian army and
citizens. In 1249, Louis was eventually defeated and taken prisoner in Mansoura,
Egypt. Louis and his companions were then released in return for the surrender
of the French army and a large ransom."

It doesn't say WHEN he was released, but if he "never saw his mother again"
as the last post related, then I suppose he must have been kept a prisoner for
a few years, or at least he did not return to his kingdom until after her Nov
1252 death.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Blanche as Regent {was Genealogy " A coat-hanger for hi

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 01 feb 2007 05:25:10

The point is 1254, she was dead then. I wonder whether they meant the wife
of Louis IX, not his mother. But then where was Louis IX in 1254.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carole T" <laurel@optusnet.com.au>
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>;
<GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 2:41 PM
Subject: Blanche as Regent {was Genealogy " A coat-hanger for history"}


Hello Leo,
snip> "...> We are talking about 1254, and Blanche of Castile,
Queen-Regent of France 1226-1236, died 27 November 1252.
Does anyone know what is wrong? Friedrich II died in 1250 and Blanche
ceased to be regent in 1236, did the dispute between the pope and Conrad
start earlier? Or was Louis IX (king from 1226, ruler 1236-1270) out of
the
country and there was a regent? Was it his wife Marguerite de Provence who
dared defy the pope?..."

Quoting from "Great Dynasties" The Capets by Regine Pernoud (a former
curator of the Rheims Museum and the Museum of French History in the
National Archives in Paris)
re Louis IX p. 22 " This was also a period of peace and prosperity, for
which the realm was indebted not only to the King who, in his own
lifetime,
was to be known by the people as 'the Holy King' but also to his mother,
Blanche. She governed on behalf of her son until he was of an age to do
so
himself, and both by her actions and by her counsel she contributed to the
smooth running of the kingdom.

In fact, she became Regent again in 1248, when Louis IX, following in the
footsteps of his ancestors, embarked with his wife for the Holy Land, at
Aigues-Mortes, the port he had created specially for that purpose. Blanche
died in 1252, without seeing her son again; but at least she had left him
a
realm which was intact and in good order. " <unquote

Regards,

Carole (in Newcastle)


----- Original Message -----
From: Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:01 PM
Subject: Genealogy " A coat-hanger for history"







Gjest

Re: Blanche as Regent {was Genealogy " A coat-hanger for hi

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 06:04:02

In a message dated 1/31/07 8:32:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leovdpas@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< The point is 1254, she was dead then. I wonder whether they meant the wife
of Louis IX, not his mother. But then where was Louis IX in 1254. >>


.... prison? (see my post) Maybe someone has a "chronology of the travels"
of St Louis tucked away somewhere :) Also looking at the dates of his children
I see a Blanche b 1253 and then a Marguerite b 1254, then a Robert b 1256.

So ... I guess he was with his wife.

Brad Verity

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 01 feb 2007 06:05:41

On Jan 31, 12:53 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

Was she perhaps a daughter of that Sir Thomas Mauleverer of Allerton who
(Thomas) had a daughter Jane (Joan) who m Robert, 6th Lord Ogle (Robert dsp 1 Aug
1562) ?

Dear Will,

The Aldborough pedigree by Norroy King of Arms Thomas Tonge in his
1530 Visitation of Yorkshire, states that she was "Kateryn, doughter
to Syr Thomas Malyvorer of Alderton". The Mauleverer of Allerton
pedigree in the same Visitation makes no mention of any Katherine.

There are two Thomas Mauleverers in it. The first, a Sir Thomas
Mauleverer, was married to Elizabeth Delaryver of Bransby. The
second, Thomas Mauleverer (not knighted), was grandson of the first,
married to Eleanor Ughtred, and had one daughter Jane.

Your Jane Mauleverer, wife of the 6th Lord Ogle, was the above-
mentioned Jane, so daughter of Thomas Mauleverer and Eleanor Ughtred.
Her first husband was Henry Wharton (knighted 1548; dsp 1550), second
son of the 1st Lord Wharton. Her third husband (after Lord Ogle) was
her father's first cousin, Sir Richard Mauleverer, son of Gilbert
Mauleverer, a younger son of Sir Thomas Mauleverer and Elizabeth
Delaryver. W.H.D. Longstaffe, the 1863 editor of Tonge's Visitation,
notes that in 1584, this Sir Richard Mauleverer (c.1528-1603) was lord
of the manor of Allerton. But whether this was in right of his wife,
or because he was the heir male of the family, is not clear. If the
former, it would imply that Jane was the only daughter of Thomas
Mauleverer and Eleanor Ughtred. If Katherine, first wife of Richard
Aldborough, had been another of their daughters, then her own daughter
Ursula Aldborough, wife of Dennis Plumpton, would have shared in the
Mauleverer of Allerton inheritance.

So that makes Katherine Mauleverer Aldborough a daughter of Sir Thomas
Mauleverer of Allerton and Elizabeth Delaryver. The c.1480-85
Visitation pedigree of Mauleverer of Allerton has Thomas and Elizabeth
married, without any issue (though issue is shown for Thomas's married
sister Grace Mauleverer Pulleyn), which implies that their children
were all born after the pedigree was taken.

The marriage of their son and heir Sir Richard Mauleverer of Allerton
to Joan Plumpton was contracted on 20 May 1492. That's the only firm
date I have for any of these Mauleverers of Allerton, other than
knowing that Katherine Mauleverer was married to Richard Aldborough
(d. 1536) by 1515, when they became members of the Guild of Corpus
Christi. She more than likely was younger than her brother Sir
Richard.

Though Katherine Mauleverer Aldborough (d.c.1520) was not descended
from Edward I, your Jane Mauleverer, Lady Ogle, was descended from
Edward III as follows:

A1) John of Gaunt (1340-1399), who had
A2) Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland (c.1379-1440), who had
A3) Mary Ferrers, Lady Neville of Oversley (1394-1458), who had
A4) John Neville of Oversley (d. 1482), who had
A5) Joan Neville m. Sir William Gascoigne (d. 1463), and had
A6) Agnes Gascoigne (d. 1504) m. 1478 Sir Robert Plumpton, and had
A7) Joan Plumpton m. 1492 Sir Richard Mauleverer of Allerton, and had
A8) Thomas Mauleverer (d. after 1530) m. Eleanor Ughtred, and had
A9) Jane Mauleverer (by 1530-1595) m. 2) 1552 Robert, 6th Lord Ogle
(1529-1562)

Cheers, ------Brad

Brad Verity

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 01 feb 2007 06:28:27

On Jan 31, 12:58 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

Richard Aldeburgh, son of Jane Mauleverer of Wothersome
married Eleanor Goldesborough daughter of Thomas

Thomas also had a son William Goldesborough who
m Anne Slingsby dau of this same Jane Mauleverer of Wothersome

Cozy family.

Yes, and it gets cozier. Anne Slingsby's second husband, Henry
Brackenbury of Sellaby, co. Durham (c.1528-1601), was her mother's
first cousin:

Ralph Wycliffe of Wycliffe & Anne Bowes, and had A1 & B1

A1) Anne Wycliffe (liv. 1536) m. James Mauleverer, and had
A2) Jane Mauleverer (c.1511- liv. 1551) m. 2) 1536/38 Peter Slingsby,
and had
A3) Anne Slingsby m. 2) by 1567 Henry Brackenbury - see B2 below

B1) Agnes Wycliffe m. Anthony Brackenbury (d. 1553), and had
B2) Henry Brackenbury (c.1528-1601) m. Anne Slingsby - see A3 above

Cheers, -------Brad

Brad Verity

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 01 feb 2007 07:04:37

On Jan 31, 12:53 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

Was she perhaps a daughter of that Sir Thomas Mauleverer of Allerton who
(Thomas) had a daughter Jane (Joan) who m Robert, 6th Lord Ogle (Robert dsp
1 Aug
1562) ?

Dear Will,

The Aldborough pedigree by Norroy King of Arms Thomas Tonge in his
1530 Visitation of Yorkshire, states that she was "Kateryn, doughter
to Syr Thomas Malyvorer of Alderton". The Mauleverer of Allerton
pedigree in the same Visitation makes no mention of any Katherine.

There are two Thomas Mauleverers in it. The first, a Sir Thomas
Mauleverer, was married to Elizabeth Delaryver of Bransby. The
second, Thomas Mauleverer (not knighted), was grandson of the first,
married to Eleanor Ughtred, and had one daughter Jane.

Your Jane Mauleverer, wife of the 6th Lord Ogle, was the above-
mentioned Jane, so daughter of Thomas Mauleverer and Eleanor Ughtred.
Her first husband was Henry Wharton (knighted 1548; dsp 1550), second
son of the 1st Lord Wharton. Her third husband (after Lord Ogle) was
her father's first cousin, Sir Richard Mauleverer, son of Gilbert
Mauleverer, a younger son of Sir Thomas Mauleverer and Elizabeth
Delaryver. W.H.D. Longstaffe, the 1863 editor of Tonge's Visitation,
notes that in 1584, this Sir Richard Mauleverer (c.1528-1603) was lord
of the manor of Allerton. But whether this was in right of his wife,
or because he was the heir male of the family, is not clear. If the
former, it would imply that Jane was the only daughter of Thomas
Mauleverer and Eleanor Ughtred. If Katherine, first wife of Richard
Aldborough, had been another of their daughters, then her own daughter
Ursula Aldborough, wife of Dennis Plumpton, would have shared in the
Mauleverer of Allerton inheritance.

So that makes Katherine Mauleverer Aldborough a daughter of Sir Thomas
Mauleverer of Allerton and Elizabeth Delaryver. The c.1480-85
Visitation pedigree of Mauleverer of Allerton has Thomas and Elizabeth
married, without any issue (though issue is shown for Thomas's married
sister Grace Mauleverer Pulleyn), which implies that their children
were all born after the pedigree was taken.

The marriage of their son and heir Sir Richard Mauleverer of Allerton
to Joan Plumpton was contracted on 20 May 1492. That's the only firm
date I have for any of these Mauleverers of Allerton, other than
knowing that Katherine Mauleverer was married to Richard Aldborough
(d. 1536) by 1515, when they became members of the Guild of Corpus
Christi. She more than likely was younger than her brother Sir
Richard.

Though Katherine Mauleverer Aldborough (d.c.1520) was not descended
from Edward I, your Jane Mauleverer, Lady Ogle, was descended from
Edward III as follows:

A1) John of Gaunt (1340-1399), who had
A2) Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland (c.1379-1440), who had
A3) Mary Ferrers, Lady Neville of Oversley (1394-1458), who had
A4) John Neville of Oversley (d. 1482), who had
A5) Joan Neville m. Sir William Gascoigne (d. 1463), and had
A6) Agnes Gascoigne (d. 1504) m. 1478 Sir Robert Plumpton, and had
A7) Joan Plumpton m. 1492 Sir Richard Mauleverer of Allerton, and had
A8) Thomas Mauleverer (d. after 1530) m. Eleanor Ughtred, and had
A9) Jane Mauleverer (by 1530-1595) m. 2) 1552 Robert, 6th Lord Ogle
(1529-1562)

Cheers, ------Brad

_________________________________________________________________
From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the
Academy Awards®

http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007 ... artagline1

Carole T

Re: Blanche as Regent {was Genealogy " A coat-hanger for hi

Legg inn av Carole T » 01 feb 2007 07:04:43

I should have read a bit further:-
":Great Dynasties"-

"...Louis was also the king who restored the se of gold currency in Frasnce.
None had been minted for five centuries. It was on his return from the Holy
Land in 1254 that Louis took this initiative.....

then

...... He had devoted six years of his life from 1248 to 1254 to restoring
not only the castles of Palestine but also order amongst the barons who had
settled in the Near east after the failure of his expedition against
Egypt...."

However, no mention is made of Louis IX being a prisoner in Egypt.

I did find another reference to Blanche " was coregent with her son Alphonse
from 1250 until her death"
Possibly Alphonse continued as regent until Louis returned. ?
ANSWER: on the death of his mother, Blanche of Castile, he was joint regent
with Charles of Anjou until the return of Louis IX (Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_of_Toulouse )

Regards,

Carole
----- Original Message -----
From: Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: Carole T <laurel@optusnet.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Blanche as Regent {was Genealogy " A coat-hanger for history"}


The point is 1254, she was dead then. I wonder whether they meant the wife
of Louis IX, not his mother. But then where was Louis IX in 1254.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carole T" <laurel@optusnet.com.au
To: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>;
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 2:41 PM
Subject: Blanche as Regent {was Genealogy " A coat-hanger for history"}


Hello Leo,
snip> "...> We are talking about 1254, and Blanche of Castile,
Queen-Regent of France 1226-1236, died 27 November 1252.
Does anyone know what is wrong? Friedrich II died in 1250 and Blanche
ceased to be regent in 1236, did the dispute between the pope and Conrad
start earlier? Or was Louis IX (king from 1226, ruler 1236-1270) out of
the
country and there was a regent? Was it his wife Marguerite de Provence
who
dared defy the pope?..."

Quoting from "Great Dynasties" The Capets by Regine Pernoud (a former
curator of the Rheims Museum and the Museum of French History in the
National Archives in Paris)
re Louis IX p. 22 " This was also a period of peace and prosperity, for
which the realm was indebted not only to the King who, in his own
lifetime,
was to be known by the people as 'the Holy King' but also to his mother,
Blanche. She governed on behalf of her son until he was of an age to do
so
himself, and both by her actions and by her counsel she contributed to
the
smooth running of the kingdom.

In fact, she became Regent again in 1248, when Louis IX, following in
the
footsteps of his ancestors, embarked with his wife for the Holy Land, at
Aigues-Mortes, the port he had created specially for that purpose.
Blanche
died in 1252, without seeing her son again; but at least she had left
him
a
realm which was intact and in good order. " <unquote

Regards,

Carole (in Newcastle)


----- Original Message -----
From: Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:01 PM
Subject: Genealogy " A coat-hanger for history"










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Brad Verity

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 01 feb 2007 07:07:42

On Jan 31, 12:58 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

Richard Aldeburgh, son of Jane Mauleverer of Wothersome
married Eleanor Goldesborough daughter of Thomas

Thomas also had a son William Goldesborough who
m Anne Slingsby dau of this same Jane Mauleverer of Wothersome

Cozy family.

Yes, and it gets cozier. Anne Slingsby's second husband, Henry
Brackenbury of Sellaby, co. Durham (c.1528-1601), was her mother's
first cousin:

Ralph Wycliffe of Wycliffe & Anne Bowes, and had A1 & B1

A1) Anne Wycliffe (liv. 1536) m. James Mauleverer, and had
A2) Jane Mauleverer (c.1511- liv. 1551) m. 2) 1536/38 Peter Slingsby,
and had
A3) Anne Slingsby m. 2) by 1567 Henry Brackenbury - see B2 below

B1) Agnes Wycliffe m. Anthony Brackenbury (d. 1553), and had
B2) Henry Brackenbury (c.1528-1601) m. Anne Slingsby - see A3 above

Cheers, -------Brad

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Gjest

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 09:06:03

Good thanks, I had had the other Wharton marriage as yet another woman.

Evidently there is some evidence that one of my lines ascends to this
Slingsby relationship. I have to work on that tomorrow, I just glanced across it
tonight.

It's probably flawed by bad chronology, or silly connections like the last
ten lines I've worked out :)

Will

Bob Turcott

Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new

Legg inn av Bob Turcott » 01 feb 2007 15:41:29

WJ,

Heres a couple, plus there are others, but I must spend my time on the
actual genealogy
side. This is quite a family.

http://www.euraldic.com/noms_s_a4.html

http://francegenweb.org/~heraldique/bas ... age_id=955

best wishes
Bob


From: WJhonson@aol.com
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: De Meherenc de Montmirel royal gateway- new
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:04:06 EST

In a message dated 1/31/07 2:06:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bobturcott@msn.com writes:

Sandret Jean-Baptiste, enregistré à Ornans, prêtre familier à Vuillafans
Sandret Normandie (JM31247)
Sandret (de) et Saudret Elie, écuyer
Sandret (de) et Saudret Jean, écuyer et Jean, écuyer, sieur de Bellevue


Could you cite what your source is for the above?
Thanks
Will Johnson


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Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: Re: John, Lord of Mawddwy/Mouthwy, son in law of Sir Fu

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 01 feb 2007 16:24:49

In message of 31 Jan, Millerfairfield@aol.com wrote:

I promised to give the details of the descent of the lordship of
Mowddwy, as derived from the 1623 Shropshire visitation, pages 59-60,

<snip of Brough pedigree of which I know nothing>

It is hard to suppose that Camden, who supervised the 1623 visitation,
could have overlooked two whole generations of the lords of Mowddwy,
innit?

As ever it is very useful to have a look at the preface to each
visitation to see what documents they used for the book and for any
other gems. The introduction for this visitation goes on at enormous
length for some 40 pages but the following are relevant:

p. xiv
"It is well to remark that the Shropshire Visitation now before us does
not give us so accurately as we could desire the exact list of the
Heralds' Visitation; some of the pedigrees have been unquestionably
added from other sources, but it is also probable that some are
wanting."

p. xxi
"The Kings of Arms ... summon in all the Gentry ... there to give an
account unto them of their Family, Matches, Issues, Coats of Arms
belonging to them ... all which is registered or recorded in a Book
called the Visitation-Book for such and such a county..."

p. xxxvii
"We now come to consider the frequent errors observed in Visitation
pedigrees. We quite endorse what is said in the Chetham Society's vol.
lxxxviii., p. 40: "The pedigrees ought most assuredly to be received
with great caution, and few of them to be regarded as indisputably
correct unless tested by documentary evidence." This is simply the
result of unskilful or careless genealogists who, when preparing their
papers in anticipation of the heralds' Visitation, had not the necessary
documentary evidences supplies to them. The wills and other sources of
information, now so accessible, enable us to supplement and correct
statements which they drew up in all honesty, from such materials as
they had at their command."

Elsewhere he notes that Camden died in November 1623 and that the
visitation was done by Robert Tresswell, Somerset Herald and Augustin
Vincent, Rouge Croix (Pursuivant). So Camden was unlikely to have done
much supervising.

As he comments the volume was not prepared from the official record of
the visitation: the heralds simply did not allow these to be copied
until around 1970. The volume was made from other documents most copies
of the visitation but with amendments and additions.

Is it surprising then, that there are errors?

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

John Brandon

Re: 1556 marriage record of Allen Clarke, ancestor of Barret

Legg inn av John Brandon » 01 feb 2007 17:36:32

No, apparently the interests of the Loves of Westhall went entirely to
their descendants, the Barretts of Westhall, a Barrett having married
the daughter and sole heiress of Richard Love of Westhall.

Volucris

Re: Bohemian Raphsody?

Legg inn av Volucris » 01 feb 2007 18:30:21

On 1 feb, 00:33, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/31/07 3:15:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,

p_m_stew...@msn.com writes:

The only source that specifies Dubravka's family relationship is
Thietmar of Merseburg, who calls her sister to Duke Boleslav

What year was Thietmar writing this?

Between 1012 and 1018 Thietmar wrote a Chronicon, or Chronicle, in
eight books, which deals with the period between 908 and 1018. For the
earlier part he used Widukind's Res gestae Saxonicae, the Annales
Quedlinburgenses and other sources; the latter part is the result of
personal knowledge. The Latin style and the composition are not of a
high standard, largely because, as the original manuscript reveals,
Thietmar continued to make amendments and insertions to the text after
it was completed. Nor does he always discriminate between important
and unimportant events. The chronicle is nevertheless an excellent
authority for the history of Saxony during the reigns of the emperors
Otto III and Henry II. No kind of information is excluded, but the
fullest details refer to the bishopric of Merseburg, and to the wars
against the Wends and the Poles.

The original manuscript of the work was moved in 1570 to Dresden. When
the city was destroyed by bombing during World War II the manuscript
was severely damaged, and only a few folios remain intact. Fortunately
a complete facsimile edition had been published by L Schmidt (Dresden,
1905).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thietmar_of_Merseburg

Hans Vogels

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Bohemian Raphsody?

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 01 feb 2007 19:11:08

In article <1170351021.458205.240070@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
"Volucris" <volucris@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:

On 1 feb, 00:33, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/31/07 3:15:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,

p_m_stew...@msn.com writes:

The only source that specifies Dubravka's family relationship is
Thietmar of Merseburg, who calls her sister to Duke Boleslav

What year was Thietmar writing this?

Between 1012 and 1018 Thietmar wrote a Chronicon, or Chronicle, in
eight books, which deals with the period between 908 and 1018. For the
earlier part he used Widukind's Res gestae Saxonicae, the Annales
Quedlinburgenses and other sources; the latter part is the result of
personal knowledge. The Latin style and the composition are not of a
high standard, largely because, as the original manuscript reveals,
Thietmar continued to make amendments and insertions to the text after
it was completed. Nor does he always discriminate between important
and unimportant events. The chronicle is nevertheless an excellent
authority for the history of Saxony during the reigns of the emperors
Otto III and Henry II. No kind of information is excluded, but the
fullest details refer to the bishopric of Merseburg, and to the wars
against the Wends and the Poles.

The original manuscript of the work was moved in 1570 to Dresden. When
the city was destroyed by bombing during World War II the manuscript
was severely damaged, and only a few folios remain intact. Fortunately
a complete facsimile edition had been published by L Schmidt (Dresden,
1905).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thietmar_of_Merseburg

I would add (and the Wikipedia page doesn't show it) that an excellent
annotated English translation of Thietmar's chronicle came out in 2001,
trans. by David A. Warner.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Gjest

Re: Bohemian Raphsody?

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 21:44:04

In a message dated 2/1/07 9:34:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
volucris@kpnplanet.nl writes:

<< Between 1012 and 1018 Thietmar wrote a Chronicon, or Chronicle, in
eight books, which deals with the period between 908 and 1018. >>

Thanks Hans. I'm going to put Dobrawa as a daughter of both Boleslaw's just
so I can remember that there is at least a slight conflict as to who her
father was. It does seem more likely she'd get married as a young girl rather than
a middle-aged spinster.

Will

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLEs

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 21:48:03

In a message dated 1/31/07 11:58:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

<< (extracted IGI records, mainly christened at Saint Michael Bassishaw,
London). >>

Louise do you have the Batch numbers?
With the Batch numbers you can jump directly to the entries without searching
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 22:46:02

In a message dated 1/31/07 11:41:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

<< A4) John Neville of Oversley (d. 1482), who had >>

Thanks Brad. I notice you did not put a wife for this John although you have
spouses for the other entries.
I have a wife to him of Elizabeth /Newmarch/ Aged 40 in 1457/8
citing
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Hopkins", pg 434-8
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-10 (October)
and
<a href =
"http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=49030&iid=FLHG_AncestralRoots-0030">Ancestral Roots, 8th Edition, pg 6</a>

Gjest

Re: The Bonkil (or de Bonkil) family, ancestors of Stewart o

Legg inn av Gjest » 01 feb 2007 23:01:03

In a message dated 2/1/07 11:55:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

<< heir of his mother, 'still a minor' in Sept. 1304 [SP I:221[14]] >>

Does anyone have the text of what this citation says?
I'd like to know more particularly why they think he is still a minor.
Thanks
Will

Gjest

Re: Blanche as Regent {was Genealogy " A coat-hanger for hi

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2007 00:35:03

Dear Will,
the Duc de Castries in his " Lives of the Kings and Queens of
France" states that Louis IX s wife accompanied him on the Sixth Crusade and
that after They returned, his mother (whom Marguerite didn`t get along with)
had died and thereafter things were very good between her and Louis.

Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Louise Staley

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLEs

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 02 feb 2007 00:36:50

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 1/31/07 11:58:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

(extracted IGI records, mainly christened at Saint Michael Bassishaw,
London).

Louise do you have the Batch numbers?
With the Batch numbers you can jump directly to the entries without searching
Thanks
Will

Hello Will,

P001461: Elizabeth, Anne
P001471: Humphrey, Angelica, Sarah, Mary, Richard
C022752: Martha

I have received information that at his death alderman Humphrey had 4
living daughters, 2 living sons and another child on the way which
contradicts the 6 co-heiresses idea.

Louise

Gjest

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLEs

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2007 00:44:03

In a message dated 2/1/07 3:40:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

<< I have received information that at his death alderman Humphrey had 4
living daughters, 2 living sons and another child on the way which
contradicts the 6 co-heiresses idea. >>

Perhaps they were mistaken and it should have read "eventually" 6
co-heiresses. That is, that the two boys d.s.p.

Louise Staley

Re: Hounding the BASKERVILLEs

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 02 feb 2007 01:04:13

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/1/07 3:40:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
caramut@bigpond.com writes:

I have received information that at his death alderman Humphrey had 4
living daughters, 2 living sons and another child on the way which
contradicts the 6 co-heiresses idea.

Perhaps they were mistaken and it should have read "eventually" 6
co-heiresses. That is, that the two boys d.s.p.

Could be the whole family is quite obscure.

My interest is in Anne, who (according to the DNB and Shropshire
Visitation) married Thomas Edwardes of Shrewsbury and was the mother of
Sir Thomas Edwardes, Bart 1st and Humphrey Edwardes, regicide. That must
have made for fun Christmas lunches.

Louise

John Higgins

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av John Higgins » 02 feb 2007 02:47:34

A couple of notes to add to this useful information on the Mauleverers of
Allerton:

The three marriages of Jane Mauleverer, dau. of Sir Thomas and Eleanor
Oughtred [sic], are given in some detail in the article in CP 10:35 on her
2nd husband Robert, 6th Lord Ogle. Here Jane is said to have d. sps [not
sp] 15 Jan and bur. 23 Jan 1594/5.

As to the Katherine Mauleverer "of Allerton" who was the the 1st wife of
Richard Aldeburgh, she is not mentioned as a daughter of the elder Sir
Thomas M. of Allerton and Elizabeth "de la River of Bransby" in Glover's
1584/5 Visitation [Foster ed.], which gives this couple only a single
daughter Frances, who is indicated in italics probably as an editorial
addition to the original visitation MS and is given no spouse. However this
same visitation does give the elder Sir Thomas a sister Katherine (also with
no spouse). Perhaps Katherine is mislocated in the Mauleverer pedigree
here, or perhaps mistakenly called daughter rather than sister of Sir Thomas
in the Aldeburgh pedigree (in the 1584/5 visitation as well as the 1530
visitation mentioned by Brad).

Also of interest, the 1584/5 visitation gives the elder Sir Thomas and
Katherine another sister Bridget. I wonder if this could be the Bridget,
1st wife of John Vavasour of Weston, who is called dau. of a Sir Thomas
Mauleverer of Allerton in Vavasour pedigrees. Does the 1530 visitation shed
any light on this?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough


On Jan 31, 12:53 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

Was she perhaps a daughter of that Sir Thomas Mauleverer of Allerton who
(Thomas) had a daughter Jane (Joan) who m Robert, 6th Lord Ogle (Robert
dsp
1 Aug
1562) ?

Dear Will,

The Aldborough pedigree by Norroy King of Arms Thomas Tonge in his
1530 Visitation of Yorkshire, states that she was "Kateryn, doughter
to Syr Thomas Malyvorer of Alderton". The Mauleverer of Allerton
pedigree in the same Visitation makes no mention of any Katherine.

There are two Thomas Mauleverers in it. The first, a Sir Thomas
Mauleverer, was married to Elizabeth Delaryver of Bransby. The
second, Thomas Mauleverer (not knighted), was grandson of the first,
married to Eleanor Ughtred, and had one daughter Jane.

Your Jane Mauleverer, wife of the 6th Lord Ogle, was the above-
mentioned Jane, so daughter of Thomas Mauleverer and Eleanor Ughtred.
Her first husband was Henry Wharton (knighted 1548; dsp 1550), second
son of the 1st Lord Wharton. Her third husband (after Lord Ogle) was
her father's first cousin, Sir Richard Mauleverer, son of Gilbert
Mauleverer, a younger son of Sir Thomas Mauleverer and Elizabeth
Delaryver. W.H.D. Longstaffe, the 1863 editor of Tonge's Visitation,
notes that in 1584, this Sir Richard Mauleverer (c.1528-1603) was lord
of the manor of Allerton. But whether this was in right of his wife,
or because he was the heir male of the family, is not clear. If the
former, it would imply that Jane was the only daughter of Thomas
Mauleverer and Eleanor Ughtred. If Katherine, first wife of Richard
Aldborough, had been another of their daughters, then her own daughter
Ursula Aldborough, wife of Dennis Plumpton, would have shared in the
Mauleverer of Allerton inheritance.

So that makes Katherine Mauleverer Aldborough a daughter of Sir Thomas
Mauleverer of Allerton and Elizabeth Delaryver. The c.1480-85
Visitation pedigree of Mauleverer of Allerton has Thomas and Elizabeth
married, without any issue (though issue is shown for Thomas's married
sister Grace Mauleverer Pulleyn), which implies that their children
were all born after the pedigree was taken.

The marriage of their son and heir Sir Richard Mauleverer of Allerton
to Joan Plumpton was contracted on 20 May 1492. That's the only firm
date I have for any of these Mauleverers of Allerton, other than
knowing that Katherine Mauleverer was married to Richard Aldborough
(d. 1536) by 1515, when they became members of the Guild of Corpus
Christi. She more than likely was younger than her brother Sir
Richard.

Though Katherine Mauleverer Aldborough (d.c.1520) was not descended
from Edward I, your Jane Mauleverer, Lady Ogle, was descended from
Edward III as follows:

A1) John of Gaunt (1340-1399), who had
A2) Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland (c.1379-1440), who had
A3) Mary Ferrers, Lady Neville of Oversley (1394-1458), who had
A4) John Neville of Oversley (d. 1482), who had
A5) Joan Neville m. Sir William Gascoigne (d. 1463), and had
A6) Agnes Gascoigne (d. 1504) m. 1478 Sir Robert Plumpton, and had
A7) Joan Plumpton m. 1492 Sir Richard Mauleverer of Allerton, and had
A8) Thomas Mauleverer (d. after 1530) m. Eleanor Ughtred, and had
A9) Jane Mauleverer (by 1530-1595) m. 2) 1552 Robert, 6th Lord Ogle
(1529-1562)

Cheers, ------Brad

_________________________________________________________________
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John Higgins

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av John Higgins » 02 feb 2007 02:56:01

Elizabeth Newmarch is covered in Faris' PA2 and its successor volume
Richardson's PA3/RPA - with more detail in the latter, since she has
descents from earlier Plantagenets who were outside the scope of Faris'
work. In RPA it's her husband John who is said to be aged 40 in 1457/8
(when his father died), not his wife Elizabeth (for whom no dates are
given).

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <royaldescent@hotmail.com>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough


In a message dated 1/31/07 11:41:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
royaldescent@hotmail.com writes:

A4) John Neville of Oversley (d. 1482), who had

Thanks Brad. I notice you did not put a wife for this John although you
have
spouses for the other entries.
I have a wife to him of Elizabeth /Newmarch/ Aged 40 in 1457/8
citing
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Hopkins", pg 434-8
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com 2005-10 (October)
and
a href =

"http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/BookView.aspx?dbid=49030&iid=FLHG_Ancest

ralRoots-0030">Ancestral Roots, 8th Edition, pg 6</a>
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John Higgins

Re: Catherine Fairfax d 1667/7

Legg inn av John Higgins » 02 feb 2007 06:11:58

It seems that you're definitely not the first to have been confused by the
many marriages of the Catherine Fairfaxes.

An extensive pedigree of the Fairfax family by Clements R. Markham was
published in vol. 6 [1871] of "The Herald and Genealogist". It shows two
Catherines, one the niece of the other. The elder Catherine was dau. of Sir
Thomas, 1st Viscount Fairfax, and Catherine Constable, and was said to have
mar. (1) Robert Stapleton of Wighill, (2) Sir Matthew Boynton, Bt., (3) W.
Wickham, and d. 1667. The younger Catherine, dau. of Thomas, 2nd Viscount
Fairfax and Alathea Howard, was said to have mar. (1) George "Meham' [s/b
Metham], and (2) Sir Arthur Ingham, and d. in 1715.

But wait, there's more. The article apparently attracted enough comment and
corrections that the editors printed a revised version, of the portion
covering Fairfax of Walton, in vol. 7 [1873]. The revised version shows the
elder Catherine with 4 marriages instead of 3, moving the Ingham marriage to
her from her niece and placing it between Boynton and Wickham. The younger
Catherine is left with just George Metham. The death years of the elder
Catherine's husbands are given as :Stapleton March 1634/5, Boynton 1646,
Ingham 1655, and no date for Wickham.

Burke's Commoners and Burke's Extinct Peerages appear to have followed the
original version, and this is what is reflected in the Stirnet website (with
some doubt). Barring any evidence to the contrary I'd be inclined to accept
the later, revised version.....

BTW, the corresponding pedigree for Fairfax of Steeton, published in vol. 6
and not revised in vol. 7, shows no daughter named Catherine for Sir Thomas,
1st Baron Fairfax, and Ellen Aske.

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 7:04 PM
Subject: Catherine Fairfax d 1667/7


That some Catherine Fairfax married Arthur Ingram of Temple Newsom
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... 1.htm#dau2

That Catherine, when she married Arthur Ingram of Temple Newsom was
already
the widow of Matthew Boynton

For marriage see
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch M001421
Arthur Ingram to Katherine BOYNTON
6 Oct 1647 Saint Helen Bishopsgate, London

She may be the same Catherine Fairfax who first married
Robert /Stapleton/ of Wighill
having at least four children by him
This marriage supposed to be 11 Jun 1622 with him dying 11 Mar 1635
Would be in time for the

11 May 1636
St Marten's, London; date of license
to Matthew Boynton
who was buried 12 Mar 1646/1647

I had had these three marriages spread amongst two seperate Catherine
Fairfax's.
One the d of
Thomas Fairfax, 1st Viscount /Fairfax/ of Elmley d 1636 by Catherine
/Constable/

The other Catherine the d of
Thomas, 1st Baron /Fairfax/ d 1640 by Ellen /Aske/ d 1620 (bur Otley
Church)

The open question now is, was there only one Catherine Fairfax? And if so
which set of parents are hers?
OR were there two Catherine Fairfax's that have somehow gotten mixed
together.

Will Johnson

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Brad Verity

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 02 feb 2007 09:02:06

On Feb 1, 5:47 pm, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Also of interest, the 1584/5 visitation gives the elder Sir Thomas and
Katherine another sister Bridget. I wonder if this could be the Bridget,
1st wife of John Vavasour of Weston, who is called dau. of a Sir Thomas
Mauleverer of Allerton in Vavasour pedigrees. Does the 1530 visitation shed
any light on this?

Dear John,

The 1530 Visitation pedigree of the Mauleverers of Allerton is
relatively useless, providing merely heads of the family and the wives
in four generations, only giving the heir, with one exception.

So you have the pedigree starting with:

Sir John Mauleverer of Allerton, married the daughter of "John Bankes
of Whipley", and had a son and heir,
Sir Thomas Mauleverer of Allerton, married Elizabeth, daughter of
"John Delarever of Bransby", and had a son and heir,
Sir Richard Mauleverer of Allerton, married Jane, daughter of "Sir
Robert Plompton", and had issue, Thomas, son and heir; and "Raulff,
ijd son".
Thomas Mauleverer of Allerton, married Eleanor, daughter of "Syr Henri
Oughtred", and had a daughter Jane.

That's it. There was no further Visitation pedigree of the family
until Glover in 1585, which I have not yet seen.

To the above I can add a couple dates. Sir Richard Mauleverer was
contracted to marry Joan Plumpton, eldest child of Sir Robert Plumpton
and first wife Agnes Gascoigne, in 1492. Richard's father Sir Thomas
Mauleverer was alive when the marriage contract was made, but dead by
1495, survived by his wife Elizabeth (de la River, would probably be
the modern spelling).

We have to go back to the Visitation pedigree of the Mauleverers of
Allerton taken c.1480-85, but probably no later than 1480 (many of
these pedigrees seem to date to about 1480, for instance that of
Percy, Earls of Northumberland).

In that the issue of Sir John Mauleverer of Allerton and his wife
Alice Bank is: Thomas, married to Elizabeth de la River (but no
issue), Halnath (will proven 12 April 1502), Robert (will proven 14
August 1500), and one daughter, Grace, married to John Pulleyn (I.P.M.
1539/40), son of Ralph Pulleyn and Joan Burdet, with two sons, Ralph
and John.

My guess would be that the four children of Sir John Mauleverer above
were his only children, especially with daughter Grace married with
two sons by the time the pedigree was taken.

That leaves the issue of Sir Thomas Mauleverer (d.1492/95) and
Elizabeth de la River as the big gap, with no full accounting of them
given in the 1530 Visitation pedigree.

The c.1480-85 Visitation pedigree of Vavasour has John Vavasour of
Newton and Weston (will proven 25 Jan. 1551), and his two wives
(first, Bridget, daughter of "Sr Thos. Malyverer of Allerton; second,
Agnes, daughter of Sir William Calverley) "added later in another
hand".

In addition to Bridget Mauleverer Vavasour and Katherine Mauleverer
Aldborough, Sir Thomas Mauleverer of Allerton and Elizabeth de la
River may have had yet another daughter. The 1585 Visitation pedigree
of Copley of Doncaster has Edward Copley, son and heir of Thomas
Copley of Doncaster and Elizabeth Wortley, married to "Mary, dau. of
Sir Thomas Maleverer, of Allerton, knt."

Gathering more chronology parameters on these families, if possible,
may help place the Mauleverer of Allerton daughters within the family.

Cheers, -------Brad

Brad Verity

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 02 feb 2007 16:57:09

On Feb 2, 12:02 am, "Brad Verity" <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Gathering more chronology parameters on these families, if possible,
may help place the Mauleverer of Allerton daughters within the family.

Here's a small start, to the above.

George Copley of Doncaster, son and heir of Edward Copley and Mary
Mauleverer, was married, by 1540, to Elizabeth Haldenby, daughter of
Robert Haldenby and Anne Dawnay, and died 1557.

Cheers, -----Brad

Gjest

Re: westmorland sheriffs

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2007 19:01:03

In a message dated 2/2/2007 9:43:11 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
andrew.en.inge@skynet.be writes:

It seems that unlike for many other Counties, there is no handy list of
Westmorland sheriffs anywhere on the internet.


We've been waiting for you to start one!
I believe there is a wikipedia page for the High Sheriffs
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Sheriffs_of_the_United_Kingdom_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hi ... ed_Kingdom)

I don't see Westmorland at all in the list.
Does it not have a high sheriff currently?

Tim Powys-Lybbe

Re: The Bonkil (or de Bonkil) family, ancestors of Stewart o

Legg inn av Tim Powys-Lybbe » 02 feb 2007 19:45:43

In message of 1 Feb, WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/1/07 11:55:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, therav3@aol.com
writes:

heir of his mother, 'still a minor' in Sept. 1304 [SP I:221[14]]

Does anyone have the text of what this citation says?
I'd like to know more particularly why they think he is still a minor.

Can't see anything relevant on that page but it is about events and
people from 1508 to 1858. Can you say who 'he' is and who his mother
might have been?

And I can't see what '[14]' might refer to in the reference.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe                                          tim@powys.org
             For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Gjest

Re: Catherine Fairfax d 1667/7

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2007 19:57:02

In a message dated 2/1/07 9:13:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

<< BTW, the corresponding pedigree for Fairfax of Steeton, published in vol. 6
and not revised in vol. 7, shows no daughter named Catherine for Sir Thomas,
1st Baron Fairfax, and Ellen Aske. >>

Thanks for your reply, I think this is likely to be true. I note that the
other children born in Ellen Aske appear to have been in the 1580s or 1590. If
I gave Catherine such an early birth, then she could not be the mother to
Arthur Ingram's daughter Catherine who could not have been born earlier than 1648
as Arthur and Catherine married at the end of 1647.

So I'm disconnecting Catherine from Ellen Aske.
Thanks

Will Johnson

Mark B

Re: westmorland sheriffs

Legg inn av Mark B » 02 feb 2007 20:11:02

Westmorland is now part of Cumbria.

--- WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/2/2007 9:43:11 A.M. Pacific
Standard Time,
andrew.en.inge@skynet.be writes:

It seems that unlike for many other Counties, there
is no handy list of
Westmorland sheriffs anywhere on the internet.


We've been waiting for you to start one!
I believe there is a wikipedia page for the High
Sheriffs

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Sheriffs_of_the_United_Kingdom_


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hi ... ed_Kingdom)


I don't see Westmorland at all in the list.
Does it not have a high sheriff currently?

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to GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word
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the body of the message





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Leo van de Pas

Re: Thomas Cheke of Pirgo / Essex Rich

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 02 feb 2007 20:42:28

Dear Will,

According to the Complete Baronetage Volume I page 142 there was a fourth
daughter,
Isabel who about 1650 married Sir Francis Gerard, 2nd Baronet. In that entry
she is described as daughter of Sir Thomas Cheke and his second wife Essex,
daughter of Robert Rich, Earl of Warwick.

Having said that, she probably was the youngest, and was close to thirty
when she married. I have records for two of her children as born ca.1654
Charles, and Sir Cheeke Gerard born 2 July 1662.

Hope you can find her baptism as well.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@AOL.COM>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 5:43 AM
Subject: Thomas Cheke of Pirgo / Essex Rich


It has been known that Thomas Cheke and Essex Rich had at least, or
exactly,
three daughters, towit: Essex, Frances and Anne

Frances is "said to have" married Lancelot Lake who d 1646 (erroneously
reported on stirnet as d 1680, but see DNB for Thomas Lake, Secretary of
State, his
father)

Essex married Edward Montague, 2nd Earl of Manchester "aet 15 in 1618"

Anne married Robert Rich, 3rd Earl of Warwick

You would think with such illustrious connections, their own lifes would
be
widely known, but I don't find good details, looking at the usual
suspects.

Now I provide their baptisms from Saint Martin in the Fields, Westminster
There are only three Cheke's in this time period baptised there, and they
are
exactly these three girls
Frances 11 Feb 1617
Essex 7 Apr 1618
Anne 14 Jun 1620

Hopefully knowing the order and ages can help in further defining the
family
of Thomas Cheke who is currently, in my database a bit of a mystery
person. I
have his ancestors for the most part, but almost nothing on *him* himself.

Will Johnson

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Andrew and Inge

RE: westmorland sheriffs

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 02 feb 2007 20:42:43

Hi

I'd be happy to do the small amount of work involved to put up such a list
on the internet, as long as the person, should they appear, who helps me get
such a list, does not mind.

Concerning the list on Wikipedia, thanks, but it seems to involve only
current sheriffs. I was looking for historical ones.

Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster



-----Original Message-----
From: WJhonson@aol.com [mailto:WJhonson@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 6:59 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: westmorland sheriffs



In a message dated 2/2/2007 9:43:11 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
andrew.en.inge@skynet.be writes:

It seems that unlike for many other Counties, there is no handy list of
Westmorland sheriffs anywhere on the internet.


We've been waiting for you to start one!
I believe there is a wikipedia page for the High Sheriffs
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Sheriffs_of_the_United_Kingdom_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hi ... ed_Kingdom)

I don't see Westmorland at all in the list.
Does it not have a high sheriff currently?

Leo van de Pas

Re: Catherine Fairfax d 1667/7

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 02 feb 2007 21:14:25

Dear Will,

Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 page 296

Sir Arthur Ingram
married (1) Elizabeth Slingsby
they had 3 sons 2 daughters, the daughters Elizabeth married Robert, Lord
Rich afterwards Earl of Warwick and
Anne who married Henry 3rd son of Robert Stapylton of Wighill
Sir Arthur Ingram
married (2) Catherine daughter of Thomas Viscount Fairfax of Elmley, and
relict of Robert Stapylton of Wighill and Sir Matthew Boynton Bart. and by
her who afterwards married William Wickham, had a daughter Catherine (no
dates given)

In the same book page 194

Sir Thomas Fairfax, of Gilling Castle, created Viscount Fairfax of Elmley
married (1) Mary Ford------------no children
married (2) Catherine Constable they had six sons and five daughters, the
third is Catherine but shown only with her first two husbands. And as you
said Ellen Aske is not her mother, and I think Thomas Fairfax is a different
Thomas Fairfax-----and I have it wrong on my website.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: Catherine Fairfax d 1667/7


In a message dated 2/1/07 9:13:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jthiggins@sbcglobal.net writes:

BTW, the corresponding pedigree for Fairfax of Steeton, published in
vol. 6
and not revised in vol. 7, shows no daughter named Catherine for Sir
Thomas,
1st Baron Fairfax, and Ellen Aske.

Thanks for your reply, I think this is likely to be true. I note that the
other children born in Ellen Aske appear to have been in the 1580s or
1590. If
I gave Catherine such an early birth, then she could not be the mother to
Arthur Ingram's daughter Catherine who could not have been born earlier
than 1648
as Arthur and Catherine married at the end of 1647.

So I'm disconnecting Catherine from Ellen Aske.
Thanks

Will Johnson

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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Gjest

Re: Thomas Cheke of Pirgo / Essex Rich

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2007 21:16:02

Leo thanks for your response
See
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=45423
See section titled "Sir Gilbert Gerard"

from which we find that Francis Gerard, 2nd Bart
by his wife who they don't name but you call Isabella Cheke
had three, not two sons

Their three sons *each* inherited the title of Bart.
They do not there state when Francis 2nd Bart died or was buried, but they do
state with my interest that his eldest son Charles Gerard (thus 3rd Bart)
married Honora Seymour, dau of Charles Seymour of Trowbridge whom I tentatively
identify with

Charles, 2nd Baron /Seymour/ of Trowbridge d 25 Aug 1665
bur at Trowbridge Church
by his wife Elizabeth /Alington/ d 1691
Elizabeth is a direct descendent of Richard Cecil

The article then picks up claiming that this Charles Gerard by Honora had an
only child Mary and then Charles dspm 1701 while Honora outlives him by thirty
years(!) buried 10 May 1731 at Harrow

At any rate, for your records, the second son Francis, thus 4th Bart from
1701-1704 when he also dspm and bur Harrow. Then Cheeke Gerard, thus 5th Bart
from 1704-16 when he ALSO dspm and title extinct.

I'm going to see if I can flush out some more dates for Honor, et al to prove
that her mother was Elizabeth Alington as I suggested above.

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Thomas Cheke of Pirgo / Essex Rich

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 02 feb 2007 21:27:18

Dear Will I only gave two sons as for the third (or better the 2nd) I did
not have a year of birth. I think those dates are important as they roughly
establish the age of the mother.

See below.......
----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: Thomas Cheke of Pirgo / Essex Rich


Leo thanks for your response
See
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=45423
See section titled "Sir Gilbert Gerard"

from which we find that Francis Gerard, 2nd Bart
by his wife who they don't name but you call Isabella Cheke
had three, not two sons

Their three sons *each* inherited the title of Bart.
They do not there state when Francis 2nd Bart died or was buried, but they
do
state with my interest that his eldest son Charles Gerard (thus 3rd Bart)
married Honora Seymour, dau of Charles Seymour of Trowbridge whom I
tentatively
identify with

Charles, 2nd Baron /Seymour/ of Trowbridge d 25 Aug 1665
bur at Trowbridge Church
by his wife Elizabeth /Alington/ d 1691
Elizabeth is a direct descendent of Richard Cecil
------------I have the same couple as parents of Honora


The article then picks up claiming that this Charles Gerard by Honora had
an
only child Mary and then Charles dspm 1701 while Honora outlives him by
thirty
years(!) buried 10 May 1731 at Harrow
-----------I have two children (no Mary)

(1) Elizabeth who married (1) Warwick Lake (2) Miles Stapleton, sources for
her
Complete Baronetage Volume I Page 142, Burke's Extinct Peerage 1866 page 312
and Ruvigny Blood Royal Clarence Volume Table LXI
(2) Francis Gerard, Complete Baronetage Volume I page 142.

At any rate, for your records, the second son Francis, thus 4th Bart from
1701-1704 when he also dspm and bur Harrow. Then Cheeke Gerard, thus 5th
Bart
from 1704-16 when he ALSO dspm and title extinct.
--------You will find the same on my website.


Hope this helps.
Leo

I'm going to see if I can flush out some more dates for Honor, et al to
prove
that her mother was Elizabeth Alington as I suggested above.

Will Johnson

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Gjest

Re: RE: westmorland sheriffs

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2007 21:39:59

I do not have a complete list, nevertheless, I can provide some information.
The Viponts were hereditary sheriffs of Westmoreland. The office descending to Idonea and Isabelle Vipont by 1285.The others are probably under sheriffs.
1201 Geoffrey Fitz Peter and Roger Bellocampo [Beauchamp] were sheriffs of Westmoreland.The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and Cumberland. Vol. I,
1202 William Stutevil amd Philip Escrope were sheriffs of Westm.
1200's Gilbert de Kirketon (sheriff of Westmorland)
1217, Robert de Veteriponte was sheriff of Westmoreland (Ragg)
D MUS 2/10/88 - date: Not dated [circa 1280 - 1290] William de Steynton, Sheriff of Westmorland
1235 John Vipont, Sheriff
1241-3 John (or Gilbert) de Kirketon under Sheriff of Westmoreland 1241-43 to High Sheriff John de Veteriponte [CWAA)
D MUS 2/10/4 - date: Not dated [late C13 - early C14] Robert Askeby sheriff of Westmorland
1312 Robert de Morwyll [Morville] then Sheriff of Westmorland. Cumbria Record Office, D HC 2/1 ? 23 Medieval deeds relating to Sleagill in Westmorland FILE [no title] - ref. D HC 2/11/6 - date: Not dated [circa 1312-1316]
1345 Robert de Clifford held the office(IPM)
1355 Robert Vipont Sheriff (Ragg)
.....
Certainly incomplete but perhaps a start.
Pat

Andrew and Inge

RE: RE: westmorland sheriffs

Legg inn av Andrew and Inge » 02 feb 2007 22:22:12

Thanks

For those interested I'll add a few more, but if anyone has a more complete
list, it would be very much appreciated....

Regards
Andrew

----

1176 Ranulph de Glanville, Sheriff of Westmorland,
D MUS 2/10/24  - date: Not dated [circa 1189] [from Scope and
Content] Osebert sheriff of Westmorland
1201 Geoffrey Fitz Peter and Roger Bellocampo [Beauchamp] were sheriffs of
Westmoreland.The History and Antiquities of the Counties of Westmoreland and
Cumberland. Vol. I,
1202 William Stutevil amd Philip Escrope were sheriffs of Westm.
D MUS 2/10/67  - date: Not dated [circa 1208 John de Ormshead Sheriff of
Westmorland
D/WYB/2/32  - date: Not dated (early 13th cent.) Gilbert de Kirketon
(sheriff of Westmorland)
1217, Robert de Veteriponte was sheriff of Westmoreland (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/115  - date: Not dated circa 1230 Alexander Bachucton (sheriff of
Westmorland),
1235 John Vipont, Sheriff
1241-3 John (or Gilbert) de Kirketon under Sheriff of Westmoreland 1241-43
to High Sheriff John de Veteriponte [CWAA)
D/WYB/2/35  - date: Not dated (mid-13th cent.) Roger de Stokes (Sheriff of
Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/38  - date: Not dated (before 1283) Sir Thomas de Mussegrave
(Sheriff of Westmorland), Si
D/WYB/2/42  - date: Not dated (1283-9) Sir Richard de Medburn (Sheriff of
Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/116  - date: 1284 Michael de Hartcla (sheriff of Westmorland),
ref.  D/WYB/2/43  - date: 1288 Robert de Morvill (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/88 - date: Not dated [circa 1280 - 1290] William de Steynton,
Sheriff of Westmorland
D MUS 2/10/4 - date: Not dated [late C13 - early C14] Robert Askeby sheriff
of Westmorland
WD D/MD 40  - date: 1294 Dom. Thomas de Hellebek, sheriff of Westmorland
1312 Robert de Morwyll [Morville] then Sheriff of Westmorland. Cumbria
Record Office, D HC 2/11/6 - date: Not dated [circa 1312-1316]
 D/WYB/2/117  - date: 1317 Henry de Warthecopp (sheriff of Westmorland)
D/WYB/2/121  - date: Not dated (early 14th cent.) Nicholas de
Grendoun(sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/71 Gift with warranty Creation dates: 9 March 1324 Henry de
Threlkeld Sheriff of Westmorland, Richard de Blenkansop
D MUS 2/10/31  - date: 20 March 1324/5 Henry de Threlkeld, sheriff of
Westmorland, Henry de Wharton
D/WYB/2/123  - date: 1329 Thomas de Waryekop (sheriff of Westmorland),
D MUS 2/10/32  - date: 19 May 1333 Robert de Sandford sheriff of
Westmorland, William de Smerdale
D/WYB/2/48  - date: 1334 Robert de Sandford (Sheriff of Westmorland),
D/WYB/2/124  - date: 1342 Thomas de Musgrave (sheriff of Westmorland),
1345 Robert de Clifford held the office(IPM)
1355 Robert Vipont Sheriff (Ragg)
D/WYB/2/53  - date: 1360 Henry de Threlkeld sheriff of Westmorland
WD RY/BOX 92/53  - date: 1380 William de Lancaster, then sheriff of
Westmorland, Hugh de Salkeld


-----Original Message-----
From: pajunkin@bellsouth.net [mailto:pajunkin@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2007 9:40 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: RE: westmorland sheriffs


I do not have a complete list, nevertheless, I can provide some information.
The Viponts were hereditary sheriffs of Westmoreland. The office descending
to Idonea and Isabelle Vipont by 1285.The others are probably under
sheriffs.

.....
Certainly incomplete but perhaps a start.
Pat

Tony Hoskins

Re: Style for Catherine of Aragon wife of Henry VIII

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 02 feb 2007 23:03:27

That was simply a convention of formal address. Similarly, documents can
be found referring to (for instance) "the Most Puissant Prince Thomas
Duke of Norfolk", etc., etc. Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk, was note
actually a "prince."

Queen Katherine (or Catherine) is correct. The fact that she was born
Infanta/Princess of Aragon and Castile, is irrelevant. Anne Boleyn would
have been referred to similarly, and she was born simply Mistress
Boleyn.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gjest

Re: westmorland sheriffs

Legg inn av Gjest » 02 feb 2007 23:26:03

Okay now one or both of you update that to wikipedia :)

John Higgins

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av John Higgins » 02 feb 2007 23:37:30

You mention a 1480-85 visitation pedigree. Where has this been published? I
wasn't aware that the visitations had started that early. Or am I
misunderstanding something?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Verity" <royaldescent@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough


On Feb 1, 5:47 pm, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Also of interest, the 1584/5 visitation gives the elder Sir Thomas and
Katherine another sister Bridget. I wonder if this could be the
Bridget,
1st wife of John Vavasour of Weston, who is called dau. of a Sir Thomas
Mauleverer of Allerton in Vavasour pedigrees. Does the 1530 visitation
shed
any light on this?

Dear John,

The 1530 Visitation pedigree of the Mauleverers of Allerton is
relatively useless, providing merely heads of the family and the wives
in four generations, only giving the heir, with one exception.

So you have the pedigree starting with:

Sir John Mauleverer of Allerton, married the daughter of "John Bankes
of Whipley", and had a son and heir,
Sir Thomas Mauleverer of Allerton, married Elizabeth, daughter of
"John Delarever of Bransby", and had a son and heir,
Sir Richard Mauleverer of Allerton, married Jane, daughter of "Sir
Robert Plompton", and had issue, Thomas, son and heir; and "Raulff,
ijd son".
Thomas Mauleverer of Allerton, married Eleanor, daughter of "Syr Henri
Oughtred", and had a daughter Jane.

That's it. There was no further Visitation pedigree of the family
until Glover in 1585, which I have not yet seen.

To the above I can add a couple dates. Sir Richard Mauleverer was
contracted to marry Joan Plumpton, eldest child of Sir Robert Plumpton
and first wife Agnes Gascoigne, in 1492. Richard's father Sir Thomas
Mauleverer was alive when the marriage contract was made, but dead by
1495, survived by his wife Elizabeth (de la River, would probably be
the modern spelling).

We have to go back to the Visitation pedigree of the Mauleverers of
Allerton taken c.1480-85, but probably no later than 1480 (many of
these pedigrees seem to date to about 1480, for instance that of
Percy, Earls of Northumberland).

In that the issue of Sir John Mauleverer of Allerton and his wife
Alice Bank is: Thomas, married to Elizabeth de la River (but no
issue), Halnath (will proven 12 April 1502), Robert (will proven 14
August 1500), and one daughter, Grace, married to John Pulleyn (I.P.M.
1539/40), son of Ralph Pulleyn and Joan Burdet, with two sons, Ralph
and John.

My guess would be that the four children of Sir John Mauleverer above
were his only children, especially with daughter Grace married with
two sons by the time the pedigree was taken.

That leaves the issue of Sir Thomas Mauleverer (d.1492/95) and
Elizabeth de la River as the big gap, with no full accounting of them
given in the 1530 Visitation pedigree.

The c.1480-85 Visitation pedigree of Vavasour has John Vavasour of
Newton and Weston (will proven 25 Jan. 1551), and his two wives
(first, Bridget, daughter of "Sr Thos. Malyverer of Allerton; second,
Agnes, daughter of Sir William Calverley) "added later in another
hand".

In addition to Bridget Mauleverer Vavasour and Katherine Mauleverer
Aldborough, Sir Thomas Mauleverer of Allerton and Elizabeth de la
River may have had yet another daughter. The 1585 Visitation pedigree
of Copley of Doncaster has Edward Copley, son and heir of Thomas
Copley of Doncaster and Elizabeth Wortley, married to "Mary, dau. of
Sir Thomas Maleverer, of Allerton, knt."

Gathering more chronology parameters on these families, if possible,
may help place the Mauleverer of Allerton daughters within the family.

Cheers, -------Brad


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Murray Lynn

Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Murray Lynn » 02 feb 2007 23:54:47

Sir Ralph Josselyn (1422-1460) was twice Mayor of London as well as an
Alderman, Sheriff, Member of Parliament for Cornhill and member and
Master of the Drapers Company.

Sir Ralph's eldest brother, Thomas, was the first of the 'Jocelyn' line
of the family who became the Earls of Roden of Ireland. The second
brother Geoffrey was the ancestor of the Josselyns of Essex and
Suffolk. While the family history prior to about 1200 is incorrect, the
family were certainly wealthy Normans of some considerable influence. It
therefore seems strange that the son of such a family was a draper.

I contacted the Drapers Company to see what information they had on Sir
Ralph. Unfortunately the early records no longer exist and apart from
filling in details of the dates his career they had no information of
his entry into the Drapers. They suggested: "One can only presume that
he became a Freeman because he worked in the drapery trade though
probably as a merchant rather than a shop keeper. It was normal for a
person to become Free having served an apprentice to an existing member
and on completing their training at 21 or a little older they would be
brought to Drapers' Hall to take up the Freedom which then entitled him
to work as a Draper and to become Free of the City of London which would
entitle him to work in the City. Who Sir Ralph was apprenticed to is
not known."

However this seems unlikely for the son of a wealthy family and my guess
is that membership of a London Company was a path to power and influence
and that the family would have bought the entry in some way.

Can anyone throw any light on this? Was it possible to bypass the
apprenticeship?

Kind Regards

Murray Lynn
Christchurch
New Zealand
My NZ Genealogy Site <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/>

conaught2

Terms "llewd book" and "popish stamps"

Legg inn av conaught2 » 02 feb 2007 23:57:06

Does anybody know what the meaning of "lewd book" and "popish stamps" would
be referring to?

William Cecil, Lord Treasurer of England on April 14, 1582 received a report
"My Lord , I have sent unto your honor a box of suche stuffe as these
libellers use for their Print. There be a certen Yrishemen that are
uttereres of the last lewd booke. One Dowdale dothe use to sell them."
Pollen, S.J. J.H. English Martyrs).

Also sent to Cecil was a box of "popish stamps".

I think the last lewd booke is probably a reference to the bible used by
Catholics, but I can't find a reference to it. Popish stamps has me
puzzled, I know it is Catholic something, but not sure what.

Tim, thank you for the Modes of Address for Knights, it was very
interesting.

Thank you,
Margaret Kristich

jonathan kirton

RE: Westmorland High Sheriffs

Legg inn av jonathan kirton » 03 feb 2007 00:07:57

Hi,

The Cumbria Record Office certainly have such a list, and
I believe that I have a

copy in my files. I will do a search and advise.

From about 1200 at least, for some reason, the position
of High Sheriff in the

county of Westmorland was hereditary, and remained so until
changed by Act

of Parliament only in the 19th. Century.

From about 1200 the High Sheriff was Robert de Veteri
Ponte until his death in

1228. His son and heir John was under age, so that an
interim High Sheriff

was appointed, who is named in the Cumbria list as:

"John (or Gilbert) de Kirketon" (from other records at the
CRO it would appear

that it was Gilbert who was the High Sheriff, and that
his younger son John de

Kirketon served him as deputy or under-sheriff.)

John de Veteri Ponte evidently reached his majority in
1234, because the list

shows him becoming High Sheriff in that year, but he seems
to have died in

1241 (see also the Calendar of Patent Rolls), and once
again Gilbert de

Kirketon seems to have become interim High Sheriff for a
period of time.

His son John seems to have continued as under-sheriff
through out this period

to both John de Veteri Ponte, and to his own father.

Eventually the hereditary position passed to the Cliffords
by inheritance.

I will try and find the list and post it.

Sincerely,

Jonathan Kirton

John Higgins

Re: Thomas Cheke of Pirgo / Essex Rich

Legg inn av John Higgins » 03 feb 2007 01:24:42

The website material on "Sir Gilbert Gerard" mentioned below indicates that
Sir Francis Gerard the younger [the 3rd Baronet] was bur. 1701 and left
issue by his unnamed wife 2 daughters, the younger of which, Isabella, mar.
(1) Sir John Fryer, (2) 1st Viscount Palmerston. If this is correct, it
represents a correction to the "Complete Peerage" on Palmerston (vol. 10
page 293) which says that the Isabel 2nd wife of the 1st Viscount Palmerston
was dau. of Sir Francis [the elder], 2nd Baronet, and Isabel Cheke.

Based on the chronology here, I suspect that CP is wrong and that Isabel
was, as stated in Will's reference, dau. of Sir Francis the younger. The CB
article on Gerrard (1:142-3) agrees with this and disagrees with CP. Her
first husband Sir John Fryer was a baronet, so his article in CB may also
shed some light on this point.

BTW, no correction in CP 14 on this point....

----- Original Message -----
From: <WJhonson@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas Cheke of Pirgo / Essex Rich


Leo thanks for your response
See
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=45423
See section titled "Sir Gilbert Gerard"

from which we find that Francis Gerard, 2nd Bart
by his wife who they don't name but you call Isabella Cheke
had three, not two sons

Their three sons *each* inherited the title of Bart.
They do not there state when Francis 2nd Bart died or was buried, but they
do
state with my interest that his eldest son Charles Gerard (thus 3rd Bart)
married Honora Seymour, dau of Charles Seymour of Trowbridge whom I
tentatively
identify with

Charles, 2nd Baron /Seymour/ of Trowbridge d 25 Aug 1665
bur at Trowbridge Church
by his wife Elizabeth /Alington/ d 1691
Elizabeth is a direct descendent of Richard Cecil

The article then picks up claiming that this Charles Gerard by Honora had
an
only child Mary and then Charles dspm 1701 while Honora outlives him by
thirty
years(!) buried 10 May 1731 at Harrow

At any rate, for your records, the second son Francis, thus 4th Bart from
1701-1704 when he also dspm and bur Harrow. Then Cheeke Gerard, thus 5th
Bart
from 1704-16 when he ALSO dspm and title extinct.

I'm going to see if I can flush out some more dates for Honor, et al to
prove
that her mother was Elizabeth Alington as I suggested above.

Will Johnson

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Gjest

Re: The Bonkil (or de Bonkil) family, ancestors of Stewart o

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2007 01:50:02

In a message dated 2/2/07 10:59:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, tim@powys.org
writes:

<< > << heir of his mother, 'still a minor' in Sept. 1304 [SP I:221[14]] >>
Does anyone have the text of what this citation says?
I'd like to know more particularly why they think he is still a minor.

Sorry Tim, a more full question should have been
It has been said that Alexander Stewart of Bonkil
(later Lord of Dreghorn)
and son of Sir John Stewart by Margaret the heiress of Bonkil
was (Alexander) "still a minor Sep 1304"
and this statement was cited to SP I:221

Does anyone have that text that might support this statement? I'd like to
see why they believe he was a minor.
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: westmorland sheriffs

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2007 01:52:02

In a message dated 2/2/07 11:47:57 AM Pacific Standard Time,
andrew.en.inge@skynet.be writes:

<< Concerning the list on Wikipedia, thanks, but it seems to involve only
current sheriffs. I was looking for historical ones. >>

They are there. The list I posted are the current ones. You have to look
behind it to where it links to to see the historical ones.
Will

Gjest

Re: Catherine Fairfax d 1667/7

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2007 02:06:02

Thanks Leo.

It appears BEP had it right all along.
Here is her fourth marriage. Note that it satisfies the criteria that
A) its after her prior husband's death, Arthus Ingram died 4 Jul 1655
B) its before her own death on 23 Feb 1666/7 and
C) it calls her Ingram

For fourth marrriage see
http://www.familysearch.org - IGI - British Isles - Batch M105033
"William Wickham to Katherine Ingram 12 Jul 1657 Langton by Malton, Yorkshire"

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Help with TOKE family pleaseeeeeeee

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 03 feb 2007 03:32:16

Give some dates----so we know which era we are looking at.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maree Posthuma" <mpps@alphalink.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Help with TOKE family pleaseeeeeeee


Hi folks,

I am in a dilemma - I just don't know where to look anymore for this
family.

I am looking for the TOKE family of Godinton in Great Chart.

What I have is:
John TOKE had a wife Cecily KEMPE; they had a son
Richard TOKE who marr. Elizabeth CLARKE, they had a son
Francis TOKE who marr. Margaret FLEET(E) and they had a daughter Margaret
TOKE who marr. Robert SHARSTED.

From the D'Elboux Manuscripts Indexed Abstracts I have found that John
TOKE and Cecily KEMPE did have a son Richard.

Also, Richard TOKE son of above did in fact marr. Eliz. CLARKE and they
did have a child and they had a son Francis TOKE.

Other than some births & deaths of the parents, there are no dates for any
of the children.

Nor can I find any marriage dates for anyone - what am I doing wrong!!!!!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Maree

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Maree Posthuma

Re: Help with TOKE family pleaseeeeeeee

Legg inn av Maree Posthuma » 03 feb 2007 04:16:52

I'm sorry, I was so busy trying to get all the info down forgot about the
dates!!!!

The info I have has come from the D'Elboux Manuscripts and a tree that I was
sent. Trouble is, I am not able to verify anything, hence me asking how I
do this.

John TOKE of Godinton died 1565.
Richard TOKE, son of above 1534-1598 (Richard is supposed to have been lord
of Buxford Manor in Great Chart) he marr. Elizabeth CLARKE (don't know
when).
Francis TOKE son of Richard, died 1648.

I don't know what the numbers and letters mean I the D'Elboux Manuscripts.
On the entry for Richard TOKE, it says "Great Chart (57-6-r3c11). For John
TOKE it says (Great Chart (57-6-r3c07).

I also have realised that I missed a generation, Francis TOKE who died 1648
and marr. Margaret FLEET(E) had a son, John. I have no idea of dates for
either John nor his father Francis.

However, Peter MOLINE marr. Elizabeth BILTON in 1705 in Camberwell, only
daughter of Robert SHARSTED and Margaret TOKE, youngest child of John TOKE.

I hope I haven't confused the issue any more,
Regards
Maree


----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: "Maree Posthuma" <mpps@alphalink.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Help with TOKE family pleaseeeeeeee


Give some dates----so we know which era we are looking at.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maree Posthuma" <mpps@alphalink.com.au
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Help with TOKE family pleaseeeeeeee


Hi folks,

I am in a dilemma - I just don't know where to look anymore for this
family.

I am looking for the TOKE family of Godinton in Great Chart.

What I have is:
John TOKE had a wife Cecily KEMPE; they had a son
Richard TOKE who marr. Elizabeth CLARKE, they had a son
Francis TOKE who marr. Margaret FLEET(E) and they had a daughter Margaret
TOKE who marr. Robert SHARSTED.

From the D'Elboux Manuscripts Indexed Abstracts I have found that John
TOKE and Cecily KEMPE did have a son Richard.

Also, Richard TOKE son of above did in fact marr. Eliz. CLARKE and they
did have a child and they had a son Francis TOKE.

Other than some births & deaths of the parents, there are no dates for
any of the children.

Nor can I find any marriage dates for anyone - what am I doing wrong!!!!!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Maree

-------------------------------
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Gjest

re: The Bonkil (or de Bonkil) family, ancestors of Stewart o

Legg inn av Gjest » 03 feb 2007 05:15:03

Friday, 2 February, 2007


Dear Will, Tim, et al.,

Apologies for a typo in an early post, which caused an
evident wild goose (or cite) chase. The reference in question
should have been typed "SP II:221", not "SP I:221".

SP II:221, in re: Sir David de Brechin, states:

' Sir David was twice married. His first wife was
Margaret, daughter and heiress of Sir Alexander
of Bonkill, and widow of Sir John Stewart, called
of Bonkill, who was killed at Falkirk in 1298.
This is proved by the precept to restore her lands
in July 1304, already cited, and also by a document
referred to by Mr. Bain. From an inquiry made by
the Bishop of Carlisle as to a disputed patronage
of the church of Uldale which had belonged to her,
it appears she died about September 1304, that
she was twice married, first to John (Stewart),
and secondly, to David Brechin, and had issue
by both. Her heir by John Stewart was still a
minor. '

Validating the above is certainly reasonable. And easier,
when the correct cite is proved. Dispensa mea.

Cheers,

John

Tony Hoskins

Re: Style for Catherine of Aragon wife of Henry VIII

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 03 feb 2007 06:07:44

"Was it part of the emergent belief in the Divine Right of Kings, now
thankfully abolished though not the fashion for lard?"

LOL (is this an internationally known term of email art?), Tim!

Lard it may well be, but I note an international inflationary tendency
- as with economics - that titles, styles, inevitably inflate over
time. "Grace" becomes "Highness" becomes "Majesty" becomes "Holiness"
becomes ... "Supernal"?!

All best,

Tony
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org

For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

-------------------------------
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the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Ingham

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 03 feb 2007 13:38:53

G'day Murray,

I too am interested in Ralph Josselyn. He married, after the death of
Philip[pa] Malpas, Elizabeth
Barlee. This Elizabeth, soon after Ralph's death in 1478, married Sir
Robert Clifford (d. 1507/8)
who was involved in the 'Perkin Welbek' plot.

1449/50 P.R.O. E 210/5814
Ralph Josselyn, citizen and clothier of London, and others to John
Bewford, Rector of St. Swithun's, London, and Ralph Brydde: Grant,
indented, of the manor of Aspenden: Herts. 28 Hen. VI.

Re. the above which appears to be a settlement of Aspenden on feoffees
about the time of his
marriage to Philippa, you will see he was described as a 'clothier.'

I would suggest that his entry into the Drapers Company was due to his
association
with Sir Philip Malpas, his father-in-law.

What was your source for his death date of 1460?

Regards,

Tony Ingham





Murray Lynn wrote:
Sir Ralph Josselyn (1422-1460) was twice Mayor of London as well as an
Alderman, Sheriff, Member of Parliament for Cornhill and member and
Master of the Drapers Company.

Sir Ralph's eldest brother, Thomas, was the first of the 'Jocelyn' line
of the family who became the Earls of Roden of Ireland. The second
brother Geoffrey was the ancestor of the Josselyns of Essex and
Suffolk. While the family history prior to about 1200 is incorrect, the
family were certainly wealthy Normans of some considerable influence. It
therefore seems strange that the son of such a family was a draper.

I contacted the Drapers Company to see what information they had on Sir
Ralph. Unfortunately the early records no longer exist and apart from
filling in details of the dates his career they had no information of
his entry into the Drapers. They suggested: "One can only presume that
he became a Freeman because he worked in the drapery trade though
probably as a merchant rather than a shop keeper. It was normal for a
person to become Free having served an apprentice to an existing member
and on completing their training at 21 or a little older they would be
brought to Drapers' Hall to take up the Freedom which then entitled him
to work as a Draper and to become Free of the City of London which would
entitle him to work in the City. Who Sir Ralph was apprenticed to is
not known."

However this seems unlikely for the son of a wealthy family and my guess
is that membership of a London Company was a path to power and influence
and that the family would have bought the entry in some way.

Can anyone throw any light on this? Was it possible to bypass the
apprenticeship?

Kind Regards

Murray Lynn
Christchurch
New Zealand
My NZ Genealogy Site <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/


-------------------------------
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Brad Verity

Re: Aldborough/Mauleverer/Goldesborough

Legg inn av Brad Verity » 03 feb 2007 17:58:07

On Feb 2, 2:37 pm, "John Higgins" <jthigg...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

You mention a 1480-85 visitation pedigree. Where has this been published? I
wasn't aware that the visitations had started that early. Or am I
misunderstanding something?

Dear John,

Below is from an earlier post I made on Yorkshire Visitations.


1480-91 -- by unknown heralds

Published in 'Visitationsof the North Part III' (Surtees Soc. 144,
1930), edited by C. Hunter Blair. The pedigrees are transcribed from
Ms. Ashmole 831, which is a manuscript copy made by herald Robert
Glover (1544-1588) of an old manuscript, now lost, which may have been
an official record of an heraldic visitation of the northern counties
made in the latter part of the 15th century. Most of the pedigrees
date to the mid-1480s, just after Bosworth (1485), with a few dating to
the early 1490s. Additions made by Glover are clearly indicated by
editor Blair. Can be downloaded online through a link provided by
Chris Phillips's great website:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sou ... ions.shtml


The Mauleverer of Allerton pedigree is pp. 71-72 [pp. 87-88 of the pdf
file].

The Vavasour of Weston pedigree is pp. 69-70 [pp. 85-86 of the pdf].

Some of the pedigrees, on closer examination [Percy, earls of
Northumberland, for instance], date even earlier, to about 1480.

Cheers, --------Brad

Tony Hoskins

Re: Gateway Gaffe ? Adam Hawkes

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 04 feb 2007 00:49:20

Hello Leo:

It appears Adam Hawkes was not a member of the Winrthrop party in 1630.
I descend from Adam Hawkes (through his daughter Susanna (Hawkes)
Cogswell), and to my knowledge the best source for him is R.C.
Anderson's _The Great Migration_, vol.3. (2003) pp. 253-7. In this work,
it is stated that Adam Hawkes arrived in 1634 (based on his wife's
admission to Charlestown, MA church). More to the point, he also says,
"The claim that Adam Hawkes came to New England in 1630 with the
WIntrhop Fleet [_ Adam Hawkes Gen._ 1, 6-12] is highly unlikely, given
the lack of records for him and his family prior to 1634. The list of
names from 1630 put forth in support of this claim is insufficient
evidence, since most of the entries on that list are only surnames, and
there are many which do not appear in New England."

Best wishes,

Tony



Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Leo van de Pas

Re: Gateway Gaffe ? Adam Hawkes

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 04 feb 2007 01:43:38

The plot thickens................................

Family lore has him in 1630 on the Winthrop Fleet.................

Tony, has him arrive in 1634 (based on Adam's wife)

Eldon Olson has him not as yet arrived in 1633 (The Great Migration Begins)

Spencer Hines, gives the surprise but did not realise it : He has him settle
in Charlestown in lynn 1638 and married circa 1631, as her second
husband...........................................


In a website I find that Adam Hawkes married circa 1631 Anne daughter of
Edward Brown and Jane Lide in Charlestown or Lynn, MA. She was the widow of
Thomas Hutchinson with several Hutchinson children.

If Adam Hawkes arrives in 1634 (Tony) or not yet in 1633 (Eldon) how can he
marry in the USA circa 1631?

The question arrises when did his wife tell he arrived in 1634------she must
have known they married ca.1631. Was this many years after the event? Had
she forgotten?

With many thanks. I think it is a puzzle worth solving.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>; <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Gateway Gaffe ? Adam Hawkes


Hello Leo:

It appears Adam Hawkes was not a member of the Winrthrop party in 1630.
I descend from Adam Hawkes (through his daughter Susanna (Hawkes)
Cogswell), and to my knowledge the best source for him is R.C.
Anderson's _The Great Migration_, vol.3. (2003) pp. 253-7. In this work,
it is stated that Adam Hawkes arrived in 1634 (based on his wife's
admission to Charlestown, MA church). More to the point, he also says,
"The claim that Adam Hawkes came to New England in 1630 with the
WIntrhop Fleet [_ Adam Hawkes Gen._ 1, 6-12] is highly unlikely, given
the lack of records for him and his family prior to 1634. The list of
names from 1630 put forth in support of this claim is insufficient
evidence, since most of the entries on that list are only surnames, and
there are many which do not appear in New England."

Best wishes,

Tony



Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Tony Hoskins

Re: Gateway Gaffe ?

Legg inn av Tony Hoskins » 04 feb 2007 01:51:03

"The Winthrop Fleet story may just be Family Lore."

It is. See: R.C. Anderson's _The Great Migration_, vol.3. (2003) pp.
253-7.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Leo van de Pas

Re: Gateway Gaffe ?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 04 feb 2007 02:14:10

But how much (or little) is wrong with the family lore, if he was not in the
USA in 1633, may have arrived in 1634 BUT he married circa 1631 in the USA?
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <poguemidden@hotmail.com>; <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Gateway Gaffe ?


"The Winthrop Fleet story may just be Family Lore."

It is. See: R.C. Anderson's _The Great Migration_, vol.3. (2003) pp.
253-7.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

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Murray Lynn

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Murray Lynn » 04 feb 2007 03:57:38

Hi Tony

Thanks for the information. 1449 is the same date as the first record
the Drapers had - "in 1449 he was serving as Warden" - and so presumably
he must have been in the Drapers for some time to have been made Master
then. Was Malpas associated with the Drapers?

My apologies - the dates were totally wrong (related to sending messages
too late at night?) - it should be (? - 25 Oct 1478)!!

If you have a look at the bottom of
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/ ... tions.html
I have been accumulating notes on Ralph including: his Knighthood
(1465), the Manor of Linslade, leading the Londoners against the Bastard
of Falconbridge (1471), his tombstone and speculation that he was murdered.

Regards

Murray


Tony Ingham wrote:

G'day Murray,

I too am interested in Ralph Josselyn. He married, after the death
of Philip[pa] Malpas, Elizabeth
Barlee. This Elizabeth, soon after Ralph's death in 1478, married Sir
Robert Clifford (d. 1507/8)
who was involved in the 'Perkin Welbek' plot.

1449/50 P.R.O. E 210/5814 Ralph Josselyn, citizen and clothier of
London, and others to John Bewford, Rector of St. Swithun's, London,
and Ralph Brydde: Grant, indented, of the manor of Aspenden: Herts. 28
Hen. VI.

Re. the above which appears to be a settlement of Aspenden on feoffees
about the time of his
marriage to Philippa, you will see he was described as a 'clothier.'

I would suggest that his entry into the Drapers Company was due to his
association
with Sir Philip Malpas, his father-in-law.

What was your source for his death date of 1460?

Regards,

Tony Ingham





Murray Lynn wrote:
Sir Ralph Josselyn (1422-1460) was twice Mayor of London as well as
an Alderman, Sheriff, Member of Parliament for Cornhill and member
and Master of the Drapers Company.

Sir Ralph's eldest brother, Thomas, was the first of the 'Jocelyn'
line of the family who became the Earls of Roden of Ireland. The
second brother Geoffrey was the ancestor of the Josselyns of Essex
and Suffolk. While the family history prior to about 1200 is
incorrect, the family were certainly wealthy Normans of some
considerable influence. It therefore seems strange that the son of
such a family was a draper.

I contacted the Drapers Company to see what information they had on
Sir Ralph. Unfortunately the early records no longer exist and apart
from filling in details of the dates his career they had no
information of his entry into the Drapers. They suggested: "One can
only presume that he became a Freeman because he worked in the
drapery trade though probably as a merchant rather than a shop
keeper. It was normal for a person to become Free having served an
apprentice to an existing member and on completing their training at
21 or a little older they would be brought to Drapers' Hall to take
up the Freedom which then entitled him to work as a Draper and to
become Free of the City of London which would entitle him to work in
the City. Who Sir Ralph was apprenticed to is not known."

However this seems unlikely for the son of a wealthy family and my
guess is that membership of a London Company was a path to power and
influence and that the family would have bought the entry in some way.
Can anyone throw any light on this? Was it possible to bypass the
apprenticeship?

Kind Regards

Murray Lynn
Christchurch
New Zealand
My NZ Genealogy Site <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/


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Peter Stewart

Re: Style for Catherine of Aragon wife of Henry VIII

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 04 feb 2007 05:10:54

"Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:mailman.2665.1170479339.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
"Was it part of the emergent belief in the Divine Right of Kings, now
thankfully abolished though not the fashion for lard?"

LOL (is this an internationally known term of email art?), Tim!

Lard it may well be, but I note an international inflationary tendency
- as with economics - that titles, styles, inevitably inflate over
time. "Grace" becomes "Highness" becomes "Majesty" becomes "Holiness"
becomes ... "Supernal"?!

There may be a trend but not a steady progression over time, as crazily
inflated styles can be found in every period - for instance, in the 9th
century Queen Emma (wife of Louis the German, king of the East Franks, and
sister of Empress Judith) gave a reliquary belt to the bishop of Augsburg
that was embroidered with her dedication as "regina nitens sanctissima
Hemma".

In a recent article [see _Representations of Power in Medieval Germany
800-1500_ (2006)] Eric Goldberg translated this literally as "the shining
and most holy Queen Emma", though I suppose the intended meaning was closer
to "the illustrious and most venerable Queen Emma". Either way, she was
having herself liberally coated with lard.

Peter Stewart

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 feb 2007 05:16:02

In a message dated 2/3/07 5:06:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nugget@bordernet.com.au writes:

<< I would suggest that his entry into the Drapers Company was due to his
association
with Sir Philip Malpas, his father-in-law. >>

Is this Sir Philip Malpas that same one who m Julian Machyn and had a
daughter Elizabeth Malpas who m Sir Thomas Cooke of Gidea Hall ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 feb 2007 05:26:02

In a message dated 2/3/07 7:15:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
m.lynn@paradise.net.nz writes:

<<
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/ ... tions.html >>

If this is your page you have Ralph's Latin inscription from his gravestone
but then in English you say "...who died...1748" I'm sure this should say 1478

Will

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Gateway Gaffe ?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 feb 2007 05:44:06

Yes.

Thanks, Anthony.

DSH

"Tony Hoskins" <hoskins@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
news:mailman.2684.1170550353.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

"The Winthrop Fleet story may just be Family Lore." -- DSH

It is. See: R.C. Anderson's _The Great Migration_, vol.3. (2003) pp.
253-7.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

Gordon and Jane Kirkemo

RE: Gateway Gaffe ?

Legg inn av Gordon and Jane Kirkemo » 04 feb 2007 06:15:51

Leo,



The book "Adam Hawkes of Saugus, Mass. 1605-1672" by Ethel Farrington Smith
was mentioned earlier as a source document. While I don't have the book, I
do have a number of pages copied from it.



Regarding his arrival, I will cite from what is recorded on page 1 of the
book.



"...However, Charles Edward Banks in his Topographical Dictionary lists Adam
Hawkes as coming from Hingham, Norfolk, England to America in 1630 with the
Winthrop Fleet. (He errs in stating that Adam settled in Hingham,
Massachusetts as did so many who came from the old Hingham). It appears
that Adam emigrated as a single man, age 25. On the fly leaf of John
Winthrop's Journal, March 29-July 8, 1630, a partial list of the mail
passengers includes the surname Hawke, without given name, and the surname
Hawkes, also without given name. These are believed to be Adam Hawkes of
Saugus and his brother John who settled first at Dorchester, Massachusetts,
then Windsor, Connecticut, and finally Hadley, Massachusetts. There also
seems to be a close connection with Matthew Hawke who was of Cambridge,
England, married Margaret Nelson at Ipswich, Suffolk, England and emigrated
with her to Hingham, Massachusetts in 1638."



If (and I cannot verify this) Ms. Smith is correct, then the delay mentioned
concerning Adam's wife being welcomed to his church could be explained by
the circumstance of his marriage occurring after his arrival in America.



I hope this is helpful,

Gordon



-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 3:19 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Gateway Gaffe ?



Knowing so little about early American people and their arrivals, I was
intrigued with the Winthrop Fleet.



I found a website telling the over all picture. The names of the ships
involved were given :

Arabella - the Flagship

Ambrose

Talbot

Charles

Mayflower

William & Francis

Hopewell

Whale

Success

Trial

-----------------------------------

First five ships went and then the other half, all having arrived by end of
July 1630



Then I found a list of the passengers with (if known) their places of origin
and where they moved to.

I found Adam Hawkes 1605-1671/2 with the description "

Family lore has Adam emigrating with the Governor Winthrop Fleet in 1630,
claiming that he was a passenger on the "Mary & John" However there is no
proof.

---------------------------------------



No proof? If he travelled on the Mary & John, then he travelled on a ship
not mentioned in the list of ships belonging to the Winthrop Fleet.

Am I missing something? Can anyone explain why is said he was on the
Winthrop Fleet but the Mary & John was not part of that fleet.



This Adam Hawkes has very interesting deswcendants :

John Adams 2nd President of the USA

John Quincy Adams 6th President of the USA

John Pierpont Morgan Jr.

Lady Diana Spencer





With best wishes

Leo van de Pas

Canberra, Australia

Leo van de Pas

Re: Gateway Gaffe ?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 04 feb 2007 06:45:23

Dear Gordon,

I seem to have trouble replying to gen-med. But Eldon Olson thinks he was
not in the USA in 1633, Tony Hoskins thinks 1634, Spencer Hines tells he
settled in Charlestown in 1638 _and_ he got married cira 1631. To me, if
this marriage date is correct,
that can only mean he _did_ arrive in 1631 or 1630 and the Winthrop Fleet
could be correct after all.

Hope this message gets through.
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon and Jane Kirkemo" <kirkemo@comcast.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: Gateway Gaffe ?


Leo,



The book "Adam Hawkes of Saugus, Mass. 1605-1672" by Ethel Farrington
Smith
was mentioned earlier as a source document. While I don't have the book,
I
do have a number of pages copied from it.



Regarding his arrival, I will cite from what is recorded on page 1 of the
book.



"...However, Charles Edward Banks in his Topographical Dictionary lists
Adam
Hawkes as coming from Hingham, Norfolk, England to America in 1630 with
the
Winthrop Fleet. (He errs in stating that Adam settled in Hingham,
Massachusetts as did so many who came from the old Hingham). It appears
that Adam emigrated as a single man, age 25. On the fly leaf of John
Winthrop's Journal, March 29-July 8, 1630, a partial list of the mail
passengers includes the surname Hawke, without given name, and the surname
Hawkes, also without given name. These are believed to be Adam Hawkes of
Saugus and his brother John who settled first at Dorchester,
Massachusetts,
then Windsor, Connecticut, and finally Hadley, Massachusetts. There also
seems to be a close connection with Matthew Hawke who was of Cambridge,
England, married Margaret Nelson at Ipswich, Suffolk, England and
emigrated
with her to Hingham, Massachusetts in 1638."



If (and I cannot verify this) Ms. Smith is correct, then the delay
mentioned
concerning Adam's wife being welcomed to his church could be explained by
the circumstance of his marriage occurring after his arrival in America.



I hope this is helpful,

Gordon



-----Original Message-----
From: Leo van de Pas [mailto:leovdpas@netspeed.com.au]
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 3:19 PM
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Gateway Gaffe ?



Knowing so little about early American people and their arrivals, I was
intrigued with the Winthrop Fleet.



I found a website telling the over all picture. The names of the ships
involved were given :

Arabella - the Flagship

Ambrose

Talbot

Charles

Mayflower

William & Francis

Hopewell

Whale

Success

Trial

-----------------------------------

First five ships went and then the other half, all having arrived by end
of
July 1630



Then I found a list of the passengers with (if known) their places of
origin
and where they moved to.

I found Adam Hawkes 1605-1671/2 with the description "

Family lore has Adam emigrating with the Governor Winthrop Fleet in 1630,
claiming that he was a passenger on the "Mary & John" However there is no
proof.

---------------------------------------



No proof? If he travelled on the Mary & John, then he travelled on a ship
not mentioned in the list of ships belonging to the Winthrop Fleet.

Am I missing something? Can anyone explain why is said he was on the
Winthrop Fleet but the Mary & John was not part of that fleet.



This Adam Hawkes has very interesting deswcendants :

John Adams 2nd President of the USA

John Quincy Adams 6th President of the USA

John Pierpont Morgan Jr.

Lady Diana Spencer





With best wishes

Leo van de Pas

Canberra, Australia


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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Gateway Gaffe ? Adam Hawkes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 feb 2007 09:39:15

Recte:

According to R & R, the marriage in Charleston took place CIRCA 1631 -- NOT
IN 1631.

DSH

Gjest

Re: Help with TOKE family pleaseeeeeeee

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 feb 2007 09:41:03

You can use this website as well
http://www.a2a.org.uk
from which I find this document, at least proving that someone named Francis
Toke existed.

Centre for Kentish Studies: Great Chart Parish Records
GREAT CHART PARISH RECORDS
Catalogue Ref. p81
Creator(s): Church of England, Great Chart Parish, Kent
CHARITY AND SCHOOLS
FILE [no title] - ref. p81/25/7 - date: 1630
[from Scope and Content] Grant by Francis Toke, Linton, gentlemen, and Edward
Andrew, recently of Great Chart, yeoman, to new feoffees of ½ an acre known
as Morecoctus garden, Cockredge or Upton, in Great Chart. Land to be used for
the benefit of the poor in Great Chart.


Will Johnson

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Gateway Gaffe ? Adam Hawkes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 feb 2007 09:45:51

R & R have Ann Hutchinson's FIRST husband as "perhaps Thomas Hutchinson of
Charlestown" -- and her second husband as Adam Hawkes.

DSH

D. Spencer Hines

Re: Gateway Gaffe ?

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 feb 2007 10:12:01

Recte:

Leo, _American Ancestors and Cousins of the Princess of Wales_ does place
Adam Hawkes in the Winthrop Fleet. Roberts and Reitweisner also have Adam
as ---- baptized Higham, Norfolk, England 26 Jan 1605 as Adam and son of
John Hawke. He reportedly died in Lynn, Massachusetts, 13 Mar 1671/72. [p.
31]. No mention of the ship he arrived in.

He allegedly settled in Charlestown, in Lynn 1638, and married in
Charlestown, circa 1631, as her second husband, Ann Hutchinson.

The source used by Roberts and Reitweisner, or at least one of them, is
Smith, Ethel Farrington _Adam Hawkes of Saugus, Mass., 1605-1672: The First
Six Generations in America_, Baltimore, 1980, pp. 1-31.

If you can find that book perhaps your dilemma will be resolved, perhaps
not. Does anyone here have it?

The Winthrop Fleet story may just be Family Lore.

Now confirmed by Anthony Hoskins.

All Best Wishes,

DSH

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.2681.1170544794.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Knowing so little about early American people and their arrivals, I was
intrigued with the Winthrop Fleet.

I found a website telling the over all picture. The names of the ships
involved were given :
Arabella - the Flagship
Ambrose
Talbot
Charles
Mayflower
William & Francis
Hopewell
Whale
Success
Trial
-----------------------------------
First five ships went and then the other half, all having arrived by end of
July 1630

Then I found a list of the passengers with (if known) their places of origin
and where they moved to.
I found Adam Hawkes 1605-1671/2 with the description "
Family lore has Adam emigrating with the Governor Winthrop Fleet in 1630,
claiming that he was a passenger on the "Mary & John" However there is no
proof.
---------------------------------------

No proof? If he travelled on the Mary & John, then he travelled on a ship
not mentioned in the list of ships belonging to the Winthrop Fleet.
Am I missing something? Can anyone explain why is said he was on the
Winthrop Fleet but the Mary & John was not part of that fleet.

This Adam Hawkes has very interesting deswcendants :
John Adams 2nd President of the USA
John Quincy Adams 6th President of the USA
John Pierpont Morgan Jr.
Lady Diana Spencer

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Murray Lynn

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Murray Lynn » 04 feb 2007 11:51:23

Hi Will
Many thanks for picking this up!!!

Kind Regards

Murray



WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/3/07 7:15:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
m.lynn@paradise.net.nz writes:


http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/ ... tions.html

If this is your page you have Ralph's Latin inscription from his gravestone
but then in English you say "...who died...1748" I'm sure this should say 1478

Will


Gjest

Re: Fw: Gateway Gaffe ? Adam Hawkes

Legg inn av Gjest » 04 feb 2007 16:11:02

Dear Leo,
In their article Charlestown Inhabitants (NEHGR 131: 124 )
Ralph J Crandall and Ralph J Coffman give Mr Adam Hawkes ` wife as a church
member in 1634 and say He was of Salem 1630 and Charlestown in 1634.
sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Leo van de Pas

Re: Fw: Gateway Gaffe ? Adam Hawkes

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 04 feb 2007 20:41:29

Dear James,

Many thanks. As Spencer Hines quoted from WAR and GBR's book, he married
_about 1631_ in Charlestown which must be in the USA. And so he should have
arrived in the USA "about 1631 or earlier", which makes the Winthrop Fleet
still a possibility.
Still strange what his wife had to say.
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com>
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Gateway Gaffe ? Adam Hawkes


Dear Leo,
In their article Charlestown Inhabitants (NEHGR 131: 124 )
Ralph J Crandall and Ralph J Coffman give Mr Adam Hawkes ` wife as a
church
member in 1634 and say He was of Salem 1630 and Charlestown in 1634.
sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

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D. Spencer Hines

Re: Gateway Gaffe? Adam Hawkes

Legg inn av D. Spencer Hines » 04 feb 2007 21:26:14

Charlestown was cheek by jowl with Boston, and still is.

It was the first capital of the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

However, it's part of the City of Boston, today.

Near and on the Waterfront.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlestown,_Massachusetts>

DSH

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.2731.1170619045.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...

Dear James,

Many thanks. As Spencer Hines quoted from WAR and GBR's book, he married
_about 1631_ in Charlestown which must be in the USA. And so he should
have arrived in the USA "about 1631 or earlier", which makes the Winthrop
Fleet still a possibility.
Still strange what his wife had to say.
With many thanks.
Leo van de Pas


----- Original Message -----
From: <Jwc1870@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Cc: <Jwc1870@AOL..com
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Gateway Gaffe ? Adam Hawkes


Dear Leo,
In their article Charlestown Inhabitants (NEHGR 131: 124 )
Ralph J Crandall and Ralph J Coffman give Mr Adam Hawkes ` wife as a
church
member in 1634 and say He was of Salem 1630 and Charlestown in 1634.
sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

Tony Ingham

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Tony Ingham » 05 feb 2007 00:20:17

Helo Will,

Yes it certainly was. Philippa and Elizabeth Malpas were Philip's only
heirs.

Regards,

Tony Ingham

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/3/07 5:06:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nugget@bordernet.com.au writes:

I would suggest that his entry into the Drapers Company was due to his
association
with Sir Philip Malpas, his father-in-law.

Is this Sir Philip Malpas that same one who m Julian Machyn and had a
daughter Elizabeth Malpas who m Sir Thomas Cooke of Gidea Hall ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: [OT] Kevin Randolph Hearst

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 03:51:02

Some new oddness about this case. I've updated some links showing that
George Hearst III filed an action against _www.hearstmania.com_
(http://www.hearstmania.com) to suspect the website as the operator, one "Kevin Hearst" was
claiming to be a member of the famous Hearst family. The website included
pictures, but with the suspicious links that I've disproven. See my page
_http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Kevin_Randolph_Hearst_
(http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... lph_Hearst)

Well in reviewing the case again today, I noticed the name linked to the
dispute resolution request HAS himself posted, with his same email address as in
the case, here before. See

_http://genforum.genealogy.com/medieval/messages/991.html_
(http://genforum.genealogy.com/medieval/ ... s/991.html)

Very odd.

Will Johnson

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: [OT] Kevin Randolph Hearst

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 05 feb 2007 04:13:03

In article <mailman.2743.1170643746.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>,
WJhonson@aol.com wrote:

Some new oddness about this case. I've updated some links showing that
George Hearst III filed an action against
http://www.hearstmania.com to suspect the website as the operator, one
"Kevin Hearst" was
claiming to be a member of the famous Hearst family. The website included
pictures, but with the suspicious links that I've disproven. See my page
http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/ind ... lph_Hearst

Well in reviewing the case again today, I noticed the name linked to the
dispute resolution request HAS himself posted, with his same email address as
in
the case, here before. See

http://genforum.genealogy.com/medieval/ ... s/991.html

Very odd.

Nothing odd about it, really.

Now, can you (or someone) do the same for that 'Matthew Rockefeller' --
self-proclaimed descendant of Persian kings, the Maharal of Prague,
Baha'ullah (?sp), etc. -- who posted here a while back?

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

Merilyn Pedrick

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Merilyn Pedrick » 05 feb 2007 08:25:14

Dear Tony and Will
Do either of you have more information about Sir Philip Malpas? I didn't
have the name of his wife until I saw Will's query yesterday.
Merilyn




-------Original Message-------

From: Tony Ingham
Date: 02/05/07 13:52:11
To: WJhonson@aol.com; GEN-MEDIEVAL@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Helo Will,

Yes it certainly was. Philippa and Elizabeth Malpas were Philip's only
heirs.

Regards,

Tony Ingham

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 2/3/07 5:06:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nugget@bordernet.com.au writes:

I would suggest that his entry into the Drapers Company was due to his
association
with Sir Philip Malpas, his father-in-law. >>

Is this Sir Philip Malpas that same one who m Julian Machyn and had a
daughter Elizabeth Malpas who m Sir Thomas Cooke of Gidea Hall ?
Thanks
Will Johnson

-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

quotes in the subject and the body of the message




-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 13:59:02

I was trundling through the Cal Pat Rot, looking for Sprenchose references,
using the search string spr*n*h*.
It amazed me to find the name spelt in 23 different ways!
Is this a record?
MM
By the way, if anyone else is interested in this ancient, but defunct,
Shropshire family, I would be delighted to hear from them

Gjest

Re: Eleanor De Montague

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 17:05:03

In a message dated 2/5/2007 6:07:06 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
franklocke@mris.com writes:

My question is this: Who was the wife of Sir John De Dynham (b.1358 d.
25 Dec1428)? Was it Eleanor De Montague, daughter of Sir John De
Montague & Margaret De Monthermer? I thank you in advance for your
help. One day, I hope to contribute something to this wonderful group
instead of just getting answers to my mix-ups. :)



Three wives
1) Alianore de Montagu married bef 3 Feb 1379/80 by which a daughter Muriel
2) Maud Mautrevers married between Aug and Nov of 1396
3) Philippa Lovell married between 1396 and 1406 by which a son John

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 17:15:03

In a message dated 2/5/2007 7:07:38 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
pedricks@ozemail.com.au writes:

Do either of you have more information about Sir Philip Malpas? I didn't
have the name of his wife until I saw Will's query yesterday.
Merilyn


He died in 1469. He left a will dated 26 Apr and proved at Lambeth 8 May.
In which he bequests to his daughter Elizabeth the wife of Sir Thomas Cooke,
Knt 500 marks

_http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC60286452&id=HEQNAAAAIAAJ&q=%22philip+ma
lpas%22&dq=%22philip+malpas%22&pgis=1_
(http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC6 ... AAAIAAJ&q="philip+malpas"&dq="philip+malpas"&pgis=1)

Will

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 17:22:02

Also see here where Philip has a brief mention
_http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC26184999&id=YTcJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA
94&dq=%22philip+malpas%22_
(http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC2 ... g=PA94&dq="philip+malpas")

Philips's house was robbed by the mob of Jack Cade, but he was apparently
forewarned perhaps by his son-in-law Thomas Cooke who acted as an agent to Jack
to open negotiations, etc.

Will

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 17:27:02

_http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC29232853&id=uL7g4ps1Uj8C&pg=PA776&lpg=P
A776&dq=%22philip+malpas%22_
(http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC2 ... =PA776&dq="philip+malpas")

I think this must also be him
"Sa. a fess betw. three pheons arg. Malpas, co Chester. Sir Philip Malpas,
Alderman of London, V"

What is a pheon?

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re:Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 18:03:02

Just for everybody's further delight, I have encountered 8 further spellings
of the Sprenchose name (7 at _www.a2a.org.uk_ (http://www.a2a.org.uk) , and
one at British History Online, this time using the search string spr?n?h).
So, at 31 variant spellings for the same family name, I am claiming a
Guinness Book of Records entry- unless there are any rivals?
To anticipate scholarly objections, I admit that some of the variants may
have arisen as a result of:-
-bad writing
-incompetent reading by archivists
-blotches on the page, rodent action, holes in original documents otherwise
caused
-scorches occasioned by fire damage
-scrumpling of pages
-cunning forgeries
-horrible yellow slime applied by scholars of former generations
But, allowing for all these possible sources of error, I still claim my
forebear Sir Fulk Sprencheux as the champion of dynastic illliteracy.
Any rival claims?
MM

Gjest

Re: Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 18:10:20

On Feb 5, 6:00 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Just for everybody's further delight, I have encountered 8 further spellings
of the Sprenchose name (7 at _www.a2a.org.uk_(http://www.a2a.org.uk) , and
one at British History Online, this time using the search string spr?n?h).
So, at 31 variant spellings for the same family name, I am claiming a
Guinness Book of Records entry- unless there are any rivals?
To anticipate scholarly objections, I admit that some of the variants may
have arisen as a result of:-
-bad writing
-incompetent reading by archivists
-blotches on the page, rodent action, holes in original documents otherwise
caused
-scorches occasioned by fire damage
-scrumpling of pages
-cunning forgeries
-horrible yellow slime applied by scholars of former generations
But, allowing for all these possible sources of error, I still claim my
forebear Sir Fulk Sprencheux as the champion of dynastic illliteracy.
Any rival claims?
MM

I think I came up against 35 spellings of Pembridge when looking into
that family, but will check. There's a celebrated booklet that
consists entirely of variant spellings of Birmingham, and as that was
also a family name it might be a contender.

-Matthew

Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 18:14:56

On Feb 5, 5:24 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
I think this must also be him
"Sa. a fess betw. three pheons arg. Malpas, co Chester. Sir Philip Malpas,
Alderman of London, V"

What is a pheon?

Will Johnson

I believe it's a kind of arrowhead, but Tim will know more exactly.

Nathaniel Taylor

Re: Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)

Legg inn av Nathaniel Taylor » 05 feb 2007 18:32:45

In article <1170695418.305381.148000@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mvernonconnolly@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

On Feb 5, 6:00 pm, Millerfairfi...@aol.com wrote:
Just for everybody's further delight, I have encountered 8 further
spellings
of the Sprenchose name (7 at _www.a2a.org.uk_(http://www.a2a.org.uk) , and
one at British History Online, this time using the search string spr?n?h).
So, at 31 variant spellings for the same family name, I am claiming a
Guinness Book of Records entry- unless there are any rivals?
To anticipate scholarly objections, I admit that some of the variants may
have arisen as a result of:-
-bad writing
-incompetent reading by archivists
-blotches on the page, rodent action, holes in original documents
otherwise
caused
-scorches occasioned by fire damage
-scrumpling of pages
-cunning forgeries
-horrible yellow slime applied by scholars of former generations
But, allowing for all these possible sources of error, I still claim my
forebear Sir Fulk Sprencheux as the champion of dynastic illliteracy.
Any rival claims?
MM

I think I came up against 35 spellings of Pembridge when looking into
that family, but will check. There's a celebrated booklet that
consists entirely of variant spellings of Birmingham, and as that was
also a family name it might be a contender.

I suspect that it's not hard to find 30+ spellings of some names, if the
names are long enough to begin with. Personal names as well. One could
browse the lemmatized name-index of some of the MGH editions of the
_libri memoriales_ and surely come up with a bunch.

Nat Taylor
http://www.nltaylor.net

John Higgins

Re: Re:Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)

Legg inn av John Higgins » 05 feb 2007 18:56:55

I assume one of the variants you've come across is Sprencheaux [or
Sprencieulx - two variants I guess]. Under that name in my data I have Sir
Fulk Sprencheaux, whose daughter Margaret mar. Richard Lee of Langley
(living 1479). Is this the Fulk who is noted as your ancestor? Do you have
any information on his wife or his ancestry. My only source at the moment
for this family is the woefully inadequate visitation of Shropshire.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Millerfairfield@aol.com>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:00 AM
Subject: Re:Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)


Just for everybody's further delight, I have encountered 8 further
spellings
of the Sprenchose name (7 at _www.a2a.org.uk_ (http://www.a2a.org.uk) ,
and
one at British History Online, this time using the search string
spr?n?h).
So, at 31 variant spellings for the same family name, I am claiming a
Guinness Book of Records entry- unless there are any rivals?
To anticipate scholarly objections, I admit that some of the variants may
have arisen as a result of:-
-bad writing
-incompetent reading by archivists
-blotches on the page, rodent action, holes in original documents
otherwise
caused
-scorches occasioned by fire damage
-scrumpling of pages
-cunning forgeries
-horrible yellow slime applied by scholars of former generations
But, allowing for all these possible sources of error, I still claim my
forebear Sir Fulk Sprencheux as the champion of dynastic illliteracy.
Any rival claims?
MM

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To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the

quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John Higgins

Re: Re:Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)

Legg inn av John Higgins » 05 feb 2007 19:01:20

FWIW, this name doesn't seem to appear under any of its variants in either
Marshall or Whitmore's bibliographies.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Higgins" <jthiggins@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Re:Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)


I assume one of the variants you've come across is Sprencheaux [or
Sprencieulx - two variants I guess]. Under that name in my data I have
Sir
Fulk Sprencheaux, whose daughter Margaret mar. Richard Lee of Langley
(living 1479). Is this the Fulk who is noted as your ancestor? Do you
have
any information on his wife or his ancestry. My only source at the moment
for this family is the woefully inadequate visitation of Shropshire.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Millerfairfield@aol.com
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:00 AM
Subject: Re:Medieval spelling (Sprenchose)


Just for everybody's further delight, I have encountered 8 further
spellings
of the Sprenchose name (7 at _www.a2a.org.uk_ (http://www.a2a.org.uk) ,
and
one at British History Online, this time using the search string
spr?n?h).
So, at 31 variant spellings for the same family name, I am claiming a
Guinness Book of Records entry- unless there are any rivals?
To anticipate scholarly objections, I admit that some of the variants
may
have arisen as a result of:-
-bad writing
-incompetent reading by archivists
-blotches on the page, rodent action, holes in original documents
otherwise
caused
-scorches occasioned by fire damage
-scrumpling of pages
-cunning forgeries
-horrible yellow slime applied by scholars of former generations
But, allowing for all these possible sources of error, I still claim my
forebear Sir Fulk Sprencheux as the champion of dynastic illliteracy.
Any rival claims?
MM

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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Gjest

Re: Sir Ralph Josselyn, Mayor of London

Legg inn av Gjest » 05 feb 2007 19:21:02

Interestingly, Sir Thomas Cooke was *also* a Lord Mayor of London (in 1462).

His DNB(1922) entry here
<a href =
"http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC26184999&id=YTcJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94">Dictionary of National Biography, "Thomas Cooke"</a>

states that had four sons and one daughter by his wife Elizabeth Malpas, but
they only name one, "the eldest" Philip, although they state that Thomas left
a will but do not quote it.

Does anyone have the full list of the four sons and one daughter?
Thanks
Will Johnson

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