Fw: Carcassonne and more?

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Carcassonne and more?

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 24. februar 2008 kl. 8.01

Dear Peter,

For me subtracting is as good as adding. ES (Schwennicke) Volume II Tafel 68
makes him father of those four. Sad that they have it wrong.
Many thanks
Leo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: Carcassonne and more?


"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.3898.1203831765.4586.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Bello, probably a Visigoth, was the first known count of
Carcassonne. He was probably born to a noble family of
Conflent (possibly the son of Siegebert V, count of Razes)
which was loyal to the Carolingians.

Bello stands at the head of a dynasty which reached its apex
in Wifredo I 'el Velloso' (the Hairy), conde de Barcelona,
himself usually regarded as the progenitor of the House of
Barcelona.

Bello had four sons by an unknown wife(s) : Guisclafred, his
successor in Carcassonne, and Sunifred I, count of Barcelona,
Oliva I, count of Carcassonne and Synyer I of Ampurias, count
of Empuries.

Bello is mentioned in 812, which may have been close toi the year
of his death. When Bello died, his sons partitioned his domains
between them, according to the eldest the chief city of Carcassonne.
He was succeeded after a short reign by his brother Oliva.

=============

Can anyone add anything to the above?

I'm afraid it's more a question of subtracting from the above - we don't
know for certain that Sunifred I of Barcelona, Oliba I of Carcassonne and
Sunyer I of Empuries were sons of Bello. (Alaric of Empuries & Perelada is
another count sometimes added to the list of his supposed sons).

The origins of Sunifred I of Barcelona in particular have been much
debated, over centuries: he might for all we know have been a son-in-law
of Bello, or perhaps unrelated. The comital family descended from Sunifred
through his son Wifred the Hairy is often referred to as the "Bellonid"
dynasty, but this is not established from proof.

Peter Stewart


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Peter Stewart

Re: Carcassonne and more?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 24. februar 2008 kl. 8.58

"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.3904.1203836533.4586.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear Peter,

For me subtracting is as good as adding. ES (Schwennicke) Volume II Tafel
68 makes him father of those four. Sad that they have it wrong.

ES may not be wrong, the relationships are simply unproven. Bello had been
count in Carcassonne, then by 2 April 812 there was a count named Gisclafred
who was probably Bello's immediate successor and perhaps his son; then by 21
September 821 (or 822) the count in Carcassonne was Oliba, who may have been
another son of Bello for all we know. The documents that these assumptions
are based on are do not elaborate their connection, if any. The succession
may or may not have been hereditary - I think it's more likely not to have
passed from a father to two sons in turn, but this remains a possibility.
The further links in ES are more problematic again.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

Re: Carcassonne and more?

Legg inn av Peter Stewart » 24. februar 2008 kl. 9.07

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:zs9wj.18608$421.17336@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au> wrote in message
news:mailman.3904.1203836533.4586.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com...
Dear Peter,

For me subtracting is as good as adding. ES (Schwennicke) Volume II Tafel
68 makes him father of those four. Sad that they have it wrong.

ES may not be wrong, the relationships are simply unproven. Bello had been
count in Carcassonne, then by 2 April 812 there was a count named
Gisclafred who was probably Bello's immediate successor and perhaps his
son; then by 21 September 821 (or 822) the count in Carcassonne was Oliba

Apologies for misstating the year - Oliba was count by 21 September 820 (or
possibly 819), not "821 (or 822)".

Peter Stewart

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