Fw: King Henry II-1/2 or King Henry IIB - which do you prefe

Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper

Svar
Leo van de Pas

Fw: King Henry II-1/2 or King Henry IIB - which do you prefe

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 19. februar 2008 kl. 1.28

This is an interesting question, but Castile and Leon were united in him.
Alfonso IX was only of Leon.
With the same (logically) reasoning, Elizabeth II is only Elizabeth I of
Scotland.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas



----- Original Message -----
From: "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval,
alt.history.british,alt.talk.royalty
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: King Henry II-1/2 or King Henry IIB - which do you prefer?


Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Renia ~

This is so much faux-English waffle on your part.

I frequently use the "counting body" system. However, if you prefer
the other system (counting earls of various creations), you're
certainly welcome to do so. Neither of us would be wrong. That is
why Complete Peerage employs BOTH systems. Frankly, both counting
systems have serious flaws. By their nature, the two systems are
completely arbitrary. Neither system reflects contemporary medieval
practice.

Even the numbering of English kings has been screwed up. King Henry
II of England crowned his son, Henry, joint king. Thus "Young
Henry" (as he is called) should be counted as King Henry III. He was
considered as such by some contemporary chronicles, but he is not
considered such by "modern" minds today. So is he King Henry II-1/2?
or King Henry IIB? You can't say he wasn't king, because he was. Now
go figure.

It's hardly fair to blame Renia for this - the fault probably lies with
Henry V, if not Henry IV.

This is why I say modern numbering systems are arbitrary in nature.

OK - try this one: where, precisely, was Alfonso X the 10th Alfonso of?
--
John Briggs



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database:
269.20.7/1286 - Release Date: 2/18/2008 6:49 PM


Gjest

Re: Fw: King Henry II-1/2 or King Henry IIB - which do you p

Legg inn av Gjest » 19. februar 2008 kl. 2.19

On Feb 19, 11:28 am, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au>
wrote:
This is an interesting question, but Castile and Leon were united in him.
Alfonso IX was only of Leon.
With the same (logically) reasoning, Elizabeth II is only Elizabeth I of
Scotland.

You've struck upon a very good illustration of the issue under
consideration.

From a Scots point of view, it *is* illogical on the face of things
that their present Monarch is Elizabeth II.

However, this doesn't mean that the numbering system is "arbitrary";
it just means we need to be aware of the reasoning behind it in order
to understand it. The rule is that a British monarch takes the higher
ordinal number relating to his Scots/English predecessors, if there is
conflict.

Thus the present Prince of Wales will be King Charles III, since both
England and Scotland have already had Charles I and Charles II.
Prince William in due course will be King William V, since while
Scotland has only had three Kings named William (William the Lion;
William of Orange and William r 1830-1837) England has had four (the
Conqueror; Rufus, and the last two from the Scots list). Conversely,
if Prince William names his son Robert, he would be Robert IV, based
on the Scots kings, even though England has never had a King Robert.

An historian who refused to follow the established convention in this
matter, in favour of a "body count" system of his own invention, or
because he deemed the convention "arbitrary", and who thus wrote about
"Elizabeth I' when referring to the present Queen, would be sowing
confusion and revealing his own prejudices or ignorance.

MA-R

Svar

Gå tilbake til «soc.genealogy.medieval»