Unidentified coheiresses
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Unidentified coheiresses
We see from the Plea Roll entry of 8 Edward I listed in Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol 6 pt 1 that there seem to have been a
number of coheiresses whose husbands are listed along with them in an
action relating to property at Gayton, Staffs.
These are:
Agnes, married to Thomas Meverele [Meverell]
Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne
Joan, married to John de Grendon
Isabel, married to Henry de Knyveton
Agnes [sic], married to Richard Draycote [Draycott]
Eleanor, married to Roger de Mercynton [Marchington]
(it is possible that the last-named was included in error)
Given the several married couples named in this list, is it possible
to identify the family they represented?
As the editors of Staffs Hist Coll noted, it is possible that they
were not all sisters - for instance, they might be two groups of
sisters, daughters and coheirs of earlier sisters who were themselves
coheirs, or we might have an aunt or two in the mix [the repetition of
the name Agnes suggests this).
Any ideas?
MA-R
Historical Collections, vol 6 pt 1 that there seem to have been a
number of coheiresses whose husbands are listed along with them in an
action relating to property at Gayton, Staffs.
These are:
Agnes, married to Thomas Meverele [Meverell]
Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne
Joan, married to John de Grendon
Isabel, married to Henry de Knyveton
Agnes [sic], married to Richard Draycote [Draycott]
Eleanor, married to Roger de Mercynton [Marchington]
(it is possible that the last-named was included in error)
Given the several married couples named in this list, is it possible
to identify the family they represented?
As the editors of Staffs Hist Coll noted, it is possible that they
were not all sisters - for instance, they might be two groups of
sisters, daughters and coheirs of earlier sisters who were themselves
coheirs, or we might have an aunt or two in the mix [the repetition of
the name Agnes suggests this).
Any ideas?
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 17, 1:06 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
I suspect this is Ralph de Montjoy, of Staffs, father of Thomas
Montjoy and grandfather of Isolda who took the Montjoy inheritance to
the Blount family.
MA-R
We see from the Plea Roll entry of 8 Edward I listed in Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol 6 pt 1 that there seem to have been a
number of coheiresses whose husbands are listed along with them in an
action relating to property at Gayton, Staffs.
These are:
Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne
I suspect this is Ralph de Montjoy, of Staffs, father of Thomas
Montjoy and grandfather of Isolda who took the Montjoy inheritance to
the Blount family.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 17, 1:06 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
A further item from the Plea Rolls (15 April 1263) sheds some light on
this:
"Staff. Thomas Meverell and Agnes his wife, Roger de Mercinton and
Alionora his wife, Amice, Isolda, Margaret, Alice, Joan, Elizabeth,
and Nichola, sisters of Agnes and Alionor, sue Peter Meverell for two
parts of the sixth part of a Knight's fee in Drengeton (Drineton), and
two parts of four bovates of land in Gayton, into which Peter had no
entry except by the custody he had of the land, whilst Agnes and her
sisters were under age, and in ward to him. Peter appeared and prayed
a view. A day is given to the parties at fifteen days from St. John
the Baptist"
(Staff Hist Coll vol 4, p 147 et seq)
This gives us:
1. Agnes, married to Thomas Meverell by 1263
2. Eleanor, married Roger de Marchington by 1263
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
4. Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne after 1262
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
7. Joan, married to John de Grendon after 1262
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Henry de Knyveton after 1262
9. Nichola
who were coheiress and had been minors in ward to Peter Meverell [one
wonders whether he married the eldest to his own son - Thomas
Meverell?].
It seems that Isabel and Henry de Knyveton were married by 1264:
"Derbyshire: Henry de Cnyveton and Sibylla his wife"
(Excerpts from the Fine Rolls in the Tower of London, p 414, dated
1264)
MA-R
We see from the Plea Roll entry of 8 Edward I listed in Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol 6 pt 1 that there seem to have been a
number of coheiresses whose husbands are listed along with them in an
action relating to property at Gayton, Staffs.
These are:
Agnes, married to Thomas Meverele [Meverell]
Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne
Joan, married to John de Grendon
Isabel, married to Henry de Knyveton
Agnes [sic], married to Richard Draycote [Draycott]
Eleanor, married to Roger de Mercynton [Marchington]
A further item from the Plea Rolls (15 April 1263) sheds some light on
this:
"Staff. Thomas Meverell and Agnes his wife, Roger de Mercinton and
Alionora his wife, Amice, Isolda, Margaret, Alice, Joan, Elizabeth,
and Nichola, sisters of Agnes and Alionor, sue Peter Meverell for two
parts of the sixth part of a Knight's fee in Drengeton (Drineton), and
two parts of four bovates of land in Gayton, into which Peter had no
entry except by the custody he had of the land, whilst Agnes and her
sisters were under age, and in ward to him. Peter appeared and prayed
a view. A day is given to the parties at fifteen days from St. John
the Baptist"
(Staff Hist Coll vol 4, p 147 et seq)
This gives us:
1. Agnes, married to Thomas Meverell by 1263
2. Eleanor, married Roger de Marchington by 1263
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
4. Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne after 1262
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
7. Joan, married to John de Grendon after 1262
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Henry de Knyveton after 1262
9. Nichola
who were coheiress and had been minors in ward to Peter Meverell [one
wonders whether he married the eldest to his own son - Thomas
Meverell?].
It seems that Isabel and Henry de Knyveton were married by 1264:
"Derbyshire: Henry de Cnyveton and Sibylla his wife"
(Excerpts from the Fine Rolls in the Tower of London, p 414, dated
1264)
MA-R
-
Nathaniel Taylor
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
In article
<9e1626d0-c069-4f66-886c-a789fd63d98e@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
Well that piques my curiosity because I am one of the innumerable
descendants via Blount of this Mountjoy line. I've never investigated
this Mountjoy family though. Are these Kniveton, Draycott, Mountjoy
(etc.) wives all unidentified in the pedigrees of their respective
spousal families? That seems surprising.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
<9e1626d0-c069-4f66-886c-a789fd63d98e@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 17, 1:06 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
We see from the Plea Roll entry of 8 Edward I listed in Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol 6 pt 1 that there seem to have been a
number of coheiresses whose husbands are listed along with them in an
action relating to property at Gayton, Staffs.
These are:
Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne
I suspect this is Ralph de Montjoy, of Staffs, father of Thomas
Montjoy and grandfather of Isolda who took the Montjoy inheritance to
the Blount family.
Well that piques my curiosity because I am one of the innumerable
descendants via Blount of this Mountjoy line. I've never investigated
this Mountjoy family though. Are these Kniveton, Draycott, Mountjoy
(etc.) wives all unidentified in the pedigrees of their respective
spousal families? That seems surprising.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 16, 6:39 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
From 'Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 29 Edward I', Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol. 7, part 1 (1886), pp. 76-94. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=52456
"Staff. An assize, etc., if Alda the daughter of Warine de Vernoun the
mother of William de Stafford was seised as of fee, etc., when she
died, of sixtythree and a half acres of land in Sondon (Sandon), and
of which Robert son of Hugh de Burweston and Roes his wife hold five
acres, Peter Seman and Margaret his wife hold five acres, Joan de
Venables fourteen acres, the Prior of Stone four acres, Robert son of
Alote of Herdewyk one acre, Henry son of Hugh de Burweston three
acres, John son of Richard de Burweston two acres, Emma la Mareschalle
one acre, Robert le Mareschall four acres, Gilbert son of Geoffrey de
Aston four acres, Nicholas de Marchynton nine acres, Ralph de Munjoye
and Isolda his wife three acres, Thomas Meverel three acres, John de
Grendon three acres, Stephen de Sondon one acre, Nicholas Meverel one
acre, and John Sweyn half-an-acre. Many of the defendants did not
appear, and the assize was taken in their absence, and Nicholas de
Marchynton stated as regards three acres claimed from him, he held
them for the life of Thomas Meverel, and called him to warranty; and
he is to be summoned to be at Tamworth on the Octaves of St. Hillary;
and as regards three other acres, he called to warranty Robert son of
Agnes de Rocheford, who is to be summoned for the same date. And
Thomas Meverel stated as regards the lands claimed against him, he
held them conjointly with Scolastica his wife, who was not named in
the writ; and as William de Stafford could not deny this, the suit
against him was dismissed. And Stephen de Sondon called John Sweyn to
warranty, who was present in Court and warranted the land to him; and
he and Nicholas de Marchynton for his remaining three acres, and Ralph
de Munjoye and Isolda for the three acres which they hold, and John de
Grendon and Nicholas Meverel for their respective tenancies, stated
that the said Alda the mother of William had two sisters, viz.,
Margaret and Roes, who held two parts of the manor of Sondon together
with the said Alda as daughters and heirs of Warine de Vernoun, and
one Richard le Butiler held the third part of the said manor, and
Margaret had issue one (blank) her son, and Roes had issue one (blank)
her son, who are now living, and they prayed judgment if the said
William could sue without his coparceners, and if this should be
conceded, they pleaded that one Margaret formerly wife of Warine de
Vernoun held the third part of the said two parts in dower of the
inheritance of the said Alda, Margaret and Roes; and the said Margaret
formerly wife of Warine survived the said Alda, so that the said Alda
never died seised of the said third part of two parts, which was held
in dower, and they prayed judgment on this point; and if given against
them, they pleaded nothing else. The assize is therefore to proceed,
but is respited till the morrow of the Octaves of St. Hillary at
Tamworth through defect of recognitors, because all were challenged,
and the Sheriff was ordered to produce a good assize at the said date
(quod venire faciat bonam assisam ad prefatum terminum). m. 15."
This is a complex holding, but I note four of your names in a row:
"Nicholas de Marchynton nine acres, Ralph de Munjoye and Isolda his
wife three acres, Thomas Meverel three acres, John de Grendon three
acres"
Assuming this represents the same families, it does suggest that your
list of heiresses is a complex one, incorporating at least two
separate splits:
Eleanor m. Marchington (9 acres)
sister (9 acres)
(Staff Hist Coll vol 4, p 147 et seq)
This gives us:
1. Agnes, married to Thomas Meverell by 1263
2. Eleanor, married Roger de Marchington by 1263
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
4. Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne after 1262
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
7. Joan, married to John de Grendon after 1262
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Henry de Knyveton after 1262
9. Nichola
who were coheiress and had been minors in ward to Peter Meverell [one
wonders whether he married the eldest to his own son - Thomas
Meverell?].
It seems that Isabel and Henry de Knyveton were married by 1264:
"Derbyshire: Henry de Cnyveton and Sibylla his wife"
(Excerpts from the Fine Rolls in the Tower of London, p 414, dated
1264)
From 'Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 29 Edward I', Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol. 7, part 1 (1886), pp. 76-94. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=52456
"Staff. An assize, etc., if Alda the daughter of Warine de Vernoun the
mother of William de Stafford was seised as of fee, etc., when she
died, of sixtythree and a half acres of land in Sondon (Sandon), and
of which Robert son of Hugh de Burweston and Roes his wife hold five
acres, Peter Seman and Margaret his wife hold five acres, Joan de
Venables fourteen acres, the Prior of Stone four acres, Robert son of
Alote of Herdewyk one acre, Henry son of Hugh de Burweston three
acres, John son of Richard de Burweston two acres, Emma la Mareschalle
one acre, Robert le Mareschall four acres, Gilbert son of Geoffrey de
Aston four acres, Nicholas de Marchynton nine acres, Ralph de Munjoye
and Isolda his wife three acres, Thomas Meverel three acres, John de
Grendon three acres, Stephen de Sondon one acre, Nicholas Meverel one
acre, and John Sweyn half-an-acre. Many of the defendants did not
appear, and the assize was taken in their absence, and Nicholas de
Marchynton stated as regards three acres claimed from him, he held
them for the life of Thomas Meverel, and called him to warranty; and
he is to be summoned to be at Tamworth on the Octaves of St. Hillary;
and as regards three other acres, he called to warranty Robert son of
Agnes de Rocheford, who is to be summoned for the same date. And
Thomas Meverel stated as regards the lands claimed against him, he
held them conjointly with Scolastica his wife, who was not named in
the writ; and as William de Stafford could not deny this, the suit
against him was dismissed. And Stephen de Sondon called John Sweyn to
warranty, who was present in Court and warranted the land to him; and
he and Nicholas de Marchynton for his remaining three acres, and Ralph
de Munjoye and Isolda for the three acres which they hold, and John de
Grendon and Nicholas Meverel for their respective tenancies, stated
that the said Alda the mother of William had two sisters, viz.,
Margaret and Roes, who held two parts of the manor of Sondon together
with the said Alda as daughters and heirs of Warine de Vernoun, and
one Richard le Butiler held the third part of the said manor, and
Margaret had issue one (blank) her son, and Roes had issue one (blank)
her son, who are now living, and they prayed judgment if the said
William could sue without his coparceners, and if this should be
conceded, they pleaded that one Margaret formerly wife of Warine de
Vernoun held the third part of the said two parts in dower of the
inheritance of the said Alda, Margaret and Roes; and the said Margaret
formerly wife of Warine survived the said Alda, so that the said Alda
never died seised of the said third part of two parts, which was held
in dower, and they prayed judgment on this point; and if given against
them, they pleaded nothing else. The assize is therefore to proceed,
but is respited till the morrow of the Octaves of St. Hillary at
Tamworth through defect of recognitors, because all were challenged,
and the Sheriff was ordered to produce a good assize at the said date
(quod venire faciat bonam assisam ad prefatum terminum). m. 15."
This is a complex holding, but I note four of your names in a row:
"Nicholas de Marchynton nine acres, Ralph de Munjoye and Isolda his
wife three acres, Thomas Meverel three acres, John de Grendon three
acres"
Assuming this represents the same families, it does suggest that your
list of heiresses is a complex one, incorporating at least two
separate splits:
Eleanor m. Marchington (9 acres)
sister (9 acres)
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 17, 3:33 pm, t...@clearwire.net wrote:
Thanks taf.
Kay Allen has very kindly been in touch off-list with information that
shows the coheiresses were the daughters of Nicholas Metherell (son of
Stephen Metherell). She advises that this is detailed in Coll. Hist.
Staffs (1914).
Nicholas in turn was married to Lucy, daughter and coheir of Roger de
Say (Eyton's Shropshire, pp 173-177).
Additionally, I note that the marriage of Henry, son and heir of
Matthew de Knyveton, and Isabella, daughter of Nicholas Meverel, is
stated explicitly in Jeayes' Derbyshire Deeds (#2703)
Cheers, Michael
On Feb 16, 6:39 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
(Staff Hist Coll vol 4, p 147 et seq)
This gives us:
1. Agnes, married to Thomas Meverell by 1263
2. Eleanor, married Roger de Marchington by 1263
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
4. Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne after 1262
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
7. Joan, married to John de Grendon after 1262
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Henry de Knyveton after 1262
9. Nichola
who were coheiress and had been minors in ward to Peter Meverell [one
wonders whether he married the eldest to his own son - Thomas
Meverell?].
It seems that Isabel and Henry de Knyveton were married by 1264:
"Derbyshire: Henry de Cnyveton and Sibylla his wife"
(Excerpts from the Fine Rolls in the Tower of London, p 414, dated
1264)
From 'Plea Rolls for Staffordshire: 29 Edward I', Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol. 7, part 1 (1886), pp. 76-94. URL:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=52456
"Staff. An assize, etc., if Alda the daughter of Warine de Vernoun the
mother of William de Stafford was seised as of fee, etc., when she
died, of sixtythree and a half acres of land in Sondon (Sandon), and
of which Robert son of Hugh de Burweston and Roes his wife hold five
acres, Peter Seman and Margaret his wife hold five acres, Joan de
Venables fourteen acres, the Prior of Stone four acres, Robert son of
Alote of Herdewyk one acre, Henry son of Hugh de Burweston three
acres, John son of Richard de Burweston two acres, Emma la Mareschalle
one acre, Robert le Mareschall four acres, Gilbert son of Geoffrey de
Aston four acres, Nicholas de Marchynton nine acres, Ralph de Munjoye
and Isolda his wife three acres, Thomas Meverel three acres, John de
Grendon three acres, Stephen de Sondon one acre, Nicholas Meverel one
acre, and John Sweyn half-an-acre. Many of the defendants did not
appear, and the assize was taken in their absence, and Nicholas de
Marchynton stated as regards three acres claimed from him, he held
them for the life of Thomas Meverel, and called him to warranty; and
he is to be summoned to be at Tamworth on the Octaves of St. Hillary;
and as regards three other acres, he called to warranty Robert son of
Agnes de Rocheford, who is to be summoned for the same date. And
Thomas Meverel stated as regards the lands claimed against him, he
held them conjointly with Scolastica his wife, who was not named in
the writ; and as William de Stafford could not deny this, the suit
against him was dismissed. And Stephen de Sondon called John Sweyn to
warranty, who was present in Court and warranted the land to him; and
he and Nicholas de Marchynton for his remaining three acres, and Ralph
de Munjoye and Isolda for the three acres which they hold, and John de
Grendon and Nicholas Meverel for their respective tenancies, stated
that the said Alda the mother of William had two sisters, viz.,
Margaret and Roes, who held two parts of the manor of Sondon together
with the said Alda as daughters and heirs of Warine de Vernoun, and
one Richard le Butiler held the third part of the said manor, and
Margaret had issue one (blank) her son, and Roes had issue one (blank)
her son, who are now living, and they prayed judgment if the said
William could sue without his coparceners, and if this should be
conceded, they pleaded that one Margaret formerly wife of Warine de
Vernoun held the third part of the said two parts in dower of the
inheritance of the said Alda, Margaret and Roes; and the said Margaret
formerly wife of Warine survived the said Alda, so that the said Alda
never died seised of the said third part of two parts, which was held
in dower, and they prayed judgment on this point; and if given against
them, they pleaded nothing else. The assize is therefore to proceed,
but is respited till the morrow of the Octaves of St. Hillary at
Tamworth through defect of recognitors, because all were challenged,
and the Sheriff was ordered to produce a good assize at the said date
(quod venire faciat bonam assisam ad prefatum terminum). m. 15."
This is a complex holding, but I note four of your names in a row:
"Nicholas de Marchynton nine acres, Ralph de Munjoye and Isolda his
wife three acres, Thomas Meverel three acres, John de Grendon three
acres"
Assuming this represents the same families, it does suggest that your
list of heiresses is a complex one, incorporating at least two
separate splits:
Eleanor m. Marchington (9 acres)
sister (9 acre)
Thanks taf.
Kay Allen has very kindly been in touch off-list with information that
shows the coheiresses were the daughters of Nicholas Metherell (son of
Stephen Metherell). She advises that this is detailed in Coll. Hist.
Staffs (1914).
Nicholas in turn was married to Lucy, daughter and coheir of Roger de
Say (Eyton's Shropshire, pp 173-177).
Additionally, I note that the marriage of Henry, son and heir of
Matthew de Knyveton, and Isabella, daughter of Nicholas Meverel, is
stated explicitly in Jeayes' Derbyshire Deeds (#2703)
Cheers, Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
{Continued. For some reason hitting tab-backspace-7 spaces resulted in
the message being sent prematurely.]
On Feb 16, 8:33 pm, t...@clearwire.net wrote:
Eleanor m. Marchington, heir Nicholas (9 acres)
(sister) (9 acres)
Isolda m. Ralph Montjoy (3 acres)
(Agnes) m. Thomas Meverell (3 acres)
(Joan) m. John Grendon (3 acres)
It could, however, be just a coincidence.
taf
the message being sent prematurely.]
On Feb 16, 8:33 pm, t...@clearwire.net wrote:
This is a complex holding, but I note four of your names in a row:
"Nicholas de Marchynton nine acres, Ralph de Munjoye and Isolda his
wife three acres, Thomas Meverel three acres, John de Grendon three
acres"
Assuming this represents the same families, it does suggest that your
list of heiresses is a complex one, incorporating at least two
separate splits:
Eleanor m. Marchington, heir Nicholas (9 acres)
(sister) (9 acres)
Isolda m. Ralph Montjoy (3 acres)
(Agnes) m. Thomas Meverell (3 acres)
(Joan) m. John Grendon (3 acres)
It could, however, be just a coincidence.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 17, 1:39 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
Jeayes 'Derbyshire Deeds', #2703:
"Grant from Matthew de Knyveton to Henry his son and heir, and
Ysabella daughter of Nicholas Meverel of Gayton, of the whole manor of
Wodethorpe; rent: a pair of white gloves. Witn. include Thomas
Meverel, Roger de Mercintone, Ralph de Munjoye".
Staffs Feet of Fine: 3 February 1293: "Ralph de Munjoye and Isold his
wife, and John de Grendon and Joan his wife: grant of land at Over
Matherfeud to William Wyther".
Eyton's Shropshire has some further details (Ralph de Say held Rowton
and Amaston)
Thus:
1. Ralph de Say, dead by 1235; left two daughters and coheirs
2a. Amice de Say, married John le Poer
2b. Lucy de Say, married firstly Nicholas Meverel (son of Stephen
Meverel) and secondly Walter de Aylesbury; left nine daughters and
coheirs - as above.
Cheers, Michael
(Staff Hist Coll vol 4, p 147 et seq)
This gives us:
1. Agnes, married to Thomas Meverell by 1263
2. Eleanor, married Roger de Marchington by 1263
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
4. Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne after 1262
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
7. Joan, married to John de Grendon after 1262
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Henry de Knyveton after 1262
9. Nichola
who were coheiress and had been minors in ward to Peter Meverell [one
wonders whether he married the eldest to his own son - Thomas
Meverell?].
It seems that Isabel and Henry de Knyveton were married by 1264:
"Derbyshire: Henry de Cnyveton and Sibylla his wife"
(Excerpts from the Fine Rolls in the Tower of London, p 414, dated
1264)
Jeayes 'Derbyshire Deeds', #2703:
"Grant from Matthew de Knyveton to Henry his son and heir, and
Ysabella daughter of Nicholas Meverel of Gayton, of the whole manor of
Wodethorpe; rent: a pair of white gloves. Witn. include Thomas
Meverel, Roger de Mercintone, Ralph de Munjoye".
Staffs Feet of Fine: 3 February 1293: "Ralph de Munjoye and Isold his
wife, and John de Grendon and Joan his wife: grant of land at Over
Matherfeud to William Wyther".
Eyton's Shropshire has some further details (Ralph de Say held Rowton
and Amaston)
Thus:
1. Ralph de Say, dead by 1235; left two daughters and coheirs
2a. Amice de Say, married John le Poer
2b. Lucy de Say, married firstly Nicholas Meverel (son of Stephen
Meverel) and secondly Walter de Aylesbury; left nine daughters and
coheirs - as above.
Cheers, Michael
-
Merilyn Pedrick
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
Yes, I'm also intrigued, being descended from the Mountjoy/Blount
marriage. Michael, could we please have more information about Isolde's
ancestors? I see that Genealogics has her father, Sir Thomas Mountjoy,
but no further back than that.
Merilyn
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
marriage. Michael, could we please have more information about Isolde's
ancestors? I see that Genealogics has her father, Sir Thomas Mountjoy,
but no further back than that.
Merilyn
Nathaniel Taylor wrote:
In article
9e1626d0-c069-4f66-886c-a789fd63d98e@e2 ... groups.com>,
mjcar@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 17, 1:06 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
We see from the Plea Roll entry of 8 Edward I listed in Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol 6 pt 1 that there seem to have been a
number of coheiresses whose husbands are listed along with them in an
action relating to property at Gayton, Staffs.
These are:
Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne
I suspect this is Ralph de Montjoy, of Staffs, father of Thomas
Montjoy and grandfather of Isolda who took the Montjoy inheritance to
the Blount family.
Well that piques my curiosity because I am one of the innumerable
descendants via Blount of this Mountjoy line. I've never investigated
this Mountjoy family though. Are these Kniveton, Draycott, Mountjoy
(etc.) wives all unidentified in the pedigrees of their respective
spousal families? That seems surprising.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
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-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 17, 1:39 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
Hal Bradley has very kindly emailed me the following, from Coll Hist
Staff vol IX (1888) p 26, citing the Banco Roll of Michaelmas 4 Edward
II:
"Staff: Ralph son of John de Grendon, Robert de Tillington, and
William son of Henry de Knyveton, sued Magister Robert de Brownlegh
and Felicia his wife for 12 acres of land, 8 shillings of rent and the
sixth part of a messuage and 200 acres of pasture in Drineton, which
they claimed as their right and inheritance, also of Isolde de
Mountjoye, and Nicholas de Marchington, and in which the said Robert
and Felicia had no entry except by a demise made to Ralph de Muntjoye
by Thomas Meverel formerly the husband of Agnes the daughter of
Nicholas Meverel, sister of the said Isolda and aunt of the said
Nicholas [de Marchington], Ralph [de Grendon] and William [de
Knyveton] and cousin of the said Robert de Tillington, whose heirs
they are, and to which the said Agnes could not object during the
lifetime of her husband. Robert and Felicia pleaded they could not be
compelled to answer without the said Isolda and Nicholas, the
coparceners, who are therefore to be summoned for the quindene of
Hillary"
Many thanks to Hal, and Kay, and taf, for their generous assistance in
getting this so quickly sorted out!
This collaborative sharing of expertise and research is an excellent
example of what this list is really all about.
Kind regards, Michael
(Staff Hist Coll vol 4, p 147 et seq)
This gives us:
1. Agnes, married to Thomas Meverell by 1263
2. Eleanor, married Roger de Marchington by 1263
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
4. Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne after 1262
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
7. Joan, married to John de Grendon after 1262
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Henry de Knyveton after 1262
9. Nichola
Hal Bradley has very kindly emailed me the following, from Coll Hist
Staff vol IX (1888) p 26, citing the Banco Roll of Michaelmas 4 Edward
II:
"Staff: Ralph son of John de Grendon, Robert de Tillington, and
William son of Henry de Knyveton, sued Magister Robert de Brownlegh
and Felicia his wife for 12 acres of land, 8 shillings of rent and the
sixth part of a messuage and 200 acres of pasture in Drineton, which
they claimed as their right and inheritance, also of Isolde de
Mountjoye, and Nicholas de Marchington, and in which the said Robert
and Felicia had no entry except by a demise made to Ralph de Muntjoye
by Thomas Meverel formerly the husband of Agnes the daughter of
Nicholas Meverel, sister of the said Isolda and aunt of the said
Nicholas [de Marchington], Ralph [de Grendon] and William [de
Knyveton] and cousin of the said Robert de Tillington, whose heirs
they are, and to which the said Agnes could not object during the
lifetime of her husband. Robert and Felicia pleaded they could not be
compelled to answer without the said Isolda and Nicholas, the
coparceners, who are therefore to be summoned for the quindene of
Hillary"
Many thanks to Hal, and Kay, and taf, for their generous assistance in
getting this so quickly sorted out!
This collaborative sharing of expertise and research is an excellent
example of what this list is really all about.
Kind regards, Michael
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 16, 7:01 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
This certainly appears to be correct. I did turn up an internet
pedigree giving Thomas a mother Margaret, but Isolda looks more
likely. We have Isolda not yet married 1263, and I find Ralph (at
least a Ralph) married to Elizabeth in 1269/70, but we have Ralph
married to Isolde by 1281 and still married to her in 1302. I have
not looked into the Mountjoys either, so I don't know how this fits
into the chronology, but it may help.
taf
In article
9e1626d0-c069-4f66-886c-a789fd63d...@e2 ... groups.com>,
mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 17, 1:06 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
We see from the Plea Roll entry of 8 Edward I listed in Staffordshire
Historical Collections, vol 6 pt 1 that there seem to have been a
number of coheiresses whose husbands are listed along with them in an
action relating to property at Gayton, Staffs.
These are:
Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne
I suspect this is Ralph de Montjoy, of Staffs, father of Thomas
Montjoy and grandfather of Isolda who took the Montjoy inheritance to
the Blount family.
Well that piques my curiosity because I am one of the innumerable
descendants via Blount of this Mountjoy line. I've never investigated
this Mountjoy family though.
This certainly appears to be correct. I did turn up an internet
pedigree giving Thomas a mother Margaret, but Isolda looks more
likely. We have Isolda not yet married 1263, and I find Ralph (at
least a Ralph) married to Elizabeth in 1269/70, but we have Ralph
married to Isolde by 1281 and still married to her in 1302. I have
not looked into the Mountjoys either, so I don't know how this fits
into the chronology, but it may help.
taf
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 17, 4:40 pm, Merilyn Pedrick <merilyn.pedr...@internode.on.net>
wrote:
Well, so far we've got:
1. Stephen Meverell, father of
2. Nicholas Meverell, died between 1255 and 1263; married Lucy,
daughter and coheir of Roger de Say; left nine daughters and coheirs,
including:
3. Isolda Meverell, unmarried in 1262; married by 1280 Ralph de
Mountjoy.
They were both living in 1300, and she was still living in 1310.
The task now is to show that they were the parents of Thomas Mountjoy,
the father of Isolda (Blount).
MA-R
wrote:
Yes, I'm also intrigued, being descended from the Mountjoy/Blount
marriage. Michael, could we please have more information about Isolde's
ancestors? I see that Genealogics has her father, Sir Thomas Mountjoy,
but no further back than that.
Merilyn
Well, so far we've got:
1. Stephen Meverell, father of
2. Nicholas Meverell, died between 1255 and 1263; married Lucy,
daughter and coheir of Roger de Say; left nine daughters and coheirs,
including:
3. Isolda Meverell, unmarried in 1262; married by 1280 Ralph de
Mountjoy.
They were both living in 1300, and she was still living in 1310.
The task now is to show that they were the parents of Thomas Mountjoy,
the father of Isolda (Blount).
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 17, 1:39 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
A further document from the Collections for a History of Staffordshire
(vol 6, part 1, Plea Rolls for Easter Term, 1284) gives us a later
date for when some of these sisters were still living:
"Staff. Matilda the widow of John de Lyttlebyri sued Thomas Meverel
and Agnes his wife for a third of four acres in Great and Little
Sandon, and she sued Roger de Merlynton (sic, Marchington) and
Alianora his wife for a third of four acres in the same vill, and
Ralph de Montjoye and Isolda his wife, and John de Grendon and Joan
his wife, and Henry de Knyveton and Isabella his wife, in each case
for a third of four acres in the same vill as her dower.
"The defendants appeared, and as regarded the third of an acre in each
of their holdings called to warranty Nicholas son and heir of William
le Butiller, who is under age, and with part of his land in the
custody of Joan the widow of William le Botiller, and the other part
of whose land is in the custody of William de Pykestoke by a deed of
Richard le Botiller the grandfather of the heir. The custodes are to
be summoned for the Octave of Trinity, and to produce the heir. Joan
is to be summoned in Lancashire, and William in Staffordshire.
"And as regarded the third part of an acre in their respective
holdings the defendants called to warranty William de Trummevile
(Trumwyne), who is to be summoned for the same date"
So:
1. Agnes, living in 1284; married Thomas Meverell by 1263;
apparently no surviving issue by 1310?
2. Eleanor, living in 1284; dead by 1310; married Roger de Marchington
by 1263;
her son, Sir Nicholas Marchington (ff 1317) was her heir by 1310
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
No further details.
4. Isolda, living in 1310; married Sir Ralph de Montjoy after 1262
her issue included a granddaughter, Isolda (Blount) - ancestress to
QEII
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279; no issue?
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279; no issue?
7. Joan, living in 1284; dead by 1310; married to John de Grendon
after 1262
her son Ralph was her heir in 1310
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Sir Henry de Knyveton after 1262?
her heir in 1310 was her son William de Knyveton
9. Nichola, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279; no issue?
It seems Robert de Tillington represented one of the coheiresses in
1310, but whereas the other coheirs were called the "nephews" of the
sisters, he was called their "cousin"; this may simply indicate a
remoter relationship, e.g. great-nephew.
MA-R
This gives us:
1. Agnes, married to Thomas Meverell by 1263
2. Eleanor, married Roger de Marchington by 1263
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
4. Isolda, married to Ralph de Monjoyne after 1262
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279
7. Joan, married to John de Grendon after 1262
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Henry de Knyveton after 1262
9. Nichola
A further document from the Collections for a History of Staffordshire
(vol 6, part 1, Plea Rolls for Easter Term, 1284) gives us a later
date for when some of these sisters were still living:
"Staff. Matilda the widow of John de Lyttlebyri sued Thomas Meverel
and Agnes his wife for a third of four acres in Great and Little
Sandon, and she sued Roger de Merlynton (sic, Marchington) and
Alianora his wife for a third of four acres in the same vill, and
Ralph de Montjoye and Isolda his wife, and John de Grendon and Joan
his wife, and Henry de Knyveton and Isabella his wife, in each case
for a third of four acres in the same vill as her dower.
"The defendants appeared, and as regarded the third of an acre in each
of their holdings called to warranty Nicholas son and heir of William
le Butiller, who is under age, and with part of his land in the
custody of Joan the widow of William le Botiller, and the other part
of whose land is in the custody of William de Pykestoke by a deed of
Richard le Botiller the grandfather of the heir. The custodes are to
be summoned for the Octave of Trinity, and to produce the heir. Joan
is to be summoned in Lancashire, and William in Staffordshire.
"And as regarded the third part of an acre in their respective
holdings the defendants called to warranty William de Trummevile
(Trumwyne), who is to be summoned for the same date"
So:
1. Agnes, living in 1284; married Thomas Meverell by 1263;
apparently no surviving issue by 1310?
2. Eleanor, living in 1284; dead by 1310; married Roger de Marchington
by 1263;
her son, Sir Nicholas Marchington (ff 1317) was her heir by 1310
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
No further details.
4. Isolda, living in 1310; married Sir Ralph de Montjoy after 1262
her issue included a granddaughter, Isolda (Blount) - ancestress to
QEII
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279; no issue?
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279; no issue?
7. Joan, living in 1284; dead by 1310; married to John de Grendon
after 1262
her son Ralph was her heir in 1310
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Sir Henry de Knyveton after 1262?
her heir in 1310 was her son William de Knyveton
9. Nichola, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279; no issue?
It seems Robert de Tillington represented one of the coheiresses in
1310, but whereas the other coheirs were called the "nephews" of the
sisters, he was called their "cousin"; this may simply indicate a
remoter relationship, e.g. great-nephew.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 17, 3:39 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
According to the Burton Cartulary f 37 (Coll. Hist. Staffs. vol 5 pt
1), Stephen Meverel's wife was named Agnes; she was dead by 16 Henry
III.
MA-R
Kay Allen has very kindly been in touch off-list with information that
shows the coheiresses were the daughters of Nicholas Meverell (son of
Stephen Meverell).
According to the Burton Cartulary f 37 (Coll. Hist. Staffs. vol 5 pt
1), Stephen Meverel's wife was named Agnes; she was dead by 16 Henry
III.
MA-R
-
Gjest
Re: Unidentified coheiresses
On Feb 17, 9:58 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
The last reference for their father (Nicholas Meverell) that I have
found is in the Calendar of Patent Rolls, 2 October 1255, when he is
excused from county office or jury service. He appears to have died
between then and 1258, as evidenced by the following entry from the
'Entries from the Fine Rolls in the Tower of London", p 287, for 42
Henry III:
"Staff: Thom' Mev'el Agn' ux' ej', Alianora et Amicia sorores ip~ius
Agn~ dant di' marc' p' una ass' no. dis. cap~ coram Egid' de
Erdinton~, et mand est Vic~ Staff."
i.e.
"Staffordshire: Thomas Meverel, Agnes his wife, and Eleanor and Amice
the sisters of the said Agnes gave two marks for an assize of novel
disseisin in the chief court of Giles de Erdington, with a mandate to
the Sheriff of Staffordshire."
MA-R
1. Agnes, living in 1284; married Thomas Meverell by 1263;
apparently no surviving issue by 1310?
2. Eleanor, living in 1284; dead by 1310; married Roger de Marchington
by 1263;
her son, Sir Nicholas Marchington (ff 1317) was her heir by 1310
3. Amice, unmarried in 1263; [?= Agnes, married Richard Draycott?]
No further details.
4. Isolda, living in 1310; married Sir Ralph de Montjoy after 1262
her issue included a granddaughter, Isolda (Blount) - ancestress to
QEII
5. Margaret, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279; no issue?
6. Alice, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279; no issue?
7. Joan, living in 1284; dead by 1310; married to John de Grendon
after 1262
her son Ralph was her heir in 1310
8. Isabel [Elizabeth], married to Sir Henry de Knyveton after 1262?
her heir in 1310 was her son William de Knyveton
9. Nichola, unmarried in 1263; possibly dead by 1279; no issue?
The last reference for their father (Nicholas Meverell) that I have
found is in the Calendar of Patent Rolls, 2 October 1255, when he is
excused from county office or jury service. He appears to have died
between then and 1258, as evidenced by the following entry from the
'Entries from the Fine Rolls in the Tower of London", p 287, for 42
Henry III:
"Staff: Thom' Mev'el Agn' ux' ej', Alianora et Amicia sorores ip~ius
Agn~ dant di' marc' p' una ass' no. dis. cap~ coram Egid' de
Erdinton~, et mand est Vic~ Staff."
i.e.
"Staffordshire: Thomas Meverel, Agnes his wife, and Eleanor and Amice
the sisters of the said Agnes gave two marks for an assize of novel
disseisin in the chief court of Giles de Erdington, with a mandate to
the Sheriff of Staffordshire."
MA-R