Ok...found the dource for my death for Walter.
17 Jan.
vii c xvi kl. Obitus Walteri de Clifford' et uxoris eius Agnetis: (fn. 14)
dederunt capitulo sex marcas. Et obitus Iohannis de Calna canonici. (fn. 15)
Fn 14 is 14Walter de Clifford II, husband of Agnes, d, in or before the
early months of 1208 when his wife Agnes is referred to as a widow (Pipe Roll 10
John 1208 p. 101 and cf. Rot. Litt. Pat. 1 80b of 20 March 1208), He was
sheriff of Hereford in 1206-7 and for part of the year ending at Michaelmas 1208,
but the accounts were rendered by Osbert fitzWilliam 1206-7 and in 1208 by
Richard le Burgeis (Pipe Roll 8 John 1206 p. 65; Pipe Roll 9 John 1207 p. 157;
Pipe Roll 10 John 1208 p. 190). He was the eldest son and heir of Walter de
Clifford I (cf I. J. Sanders, English Baronies: a Study of their Origin and
Descent 1086-1327 (Oxford, 1960) p. 35, which, however, assumes that Walter
I's heir survived until 1221). The Walter de Clifford who d. in 1221 (ibid.)
was his and Agnes's son (cf. the younger Walter's ch. for Dore, preserved in
Curia Regis Rolls IX 203-4, which gives his mother's name as Agnes de Cundi).
Although the ch. was entered on roll 74 in Trinity term 1220, it must have
been issued before the flight of William de Braose senior and his son in 1208,
and may well have been issued immediately after Waiter II's death. Agnes de
Cundy's will, issued in the lifetime of her husband, survives as BL Harley
Charter 48 C 25: it can be dated 1195 × 1208, while H., either Henry de Castilion
or Henry de Sandford, was archdcn. of Canterbury (1 Fasti II 14).
From: 'The obit book of Hereford Cathedral: Jan - June', Fasti Ecclesiae
Anglicanae 1066-1300: volume 8: Hereford (2002), pp. 101-128. URL:
_http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=34459_
(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=34459) . Date accessed: 15 February 2008.
Ken
**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
walter Clifford's 1208 death
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
wjhonson
Re: walter Clifford's 1208 death
On Feb 14, 11:22 pm, KRothi...@aol.com wrote:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
We're in a load of trouble now.
Ok...found the dource for my death for Walter.
17 Jan.
vii c xvi kl. Obitus Walteri de Clifford' et uxoris eius Agnetis: (fn. 14)
dederunt capitulo sex marcas. Et obitus Iohannis de Calna canonici. (fn.. 15)
Fn 14 is 14Walter de Clifford II, husband of Agnes, d, in or before the
early months of 1208 when his wife Agnes is referred to as a widow (Pipe Roll 10
John 1208 p. 101 and cf. Rot. Litt. Pat. 1 80b of 20 March 1208), He was
sheriff of Hereford in 1206-7 and for part of the year ending at Michaelmas 1208,
but the accounts were rendered by Osbert fitzWilliam 1206-7 and in 1208 by
Richard le Burgeis (Pipe Roll 8 John 1206 p. 65; Pipe Roll 9 John 1207 p. 157;
Pipe Roll 10 John 1208 p. 190). He was the eldest son and heir of Walter de
Clifford I (cf I. J. Sanders, English Baronies: a Study of their Origin and
Descent 1086-1327 (Oxford, 1960) p. 35, which, however, assumes that Walter
I's heir survived until 1221). The Walter de Clifford who d. in 1221 (ibid.)
was his and Agnes's son (cf. the younger Walter's ch. for Dore, preserved in
Curia Regis Rolls IX 203-4, which gives his mother's name as Agnes de Cundi).
Although the ch. was entered on roll 74 in Trinity term 1220, it must have
been issued before the flight of William de Braose senior and his son in 1208,
and may well have been issued immediately after Waiter II's death. Agnes de
Cundy's will, issued in the lifetime of her husband, survives as BL Harley
Charter 48 C 25: it can be dated 1195 × 1208, while H., either Henry de Castilion
or Henry de Sandford, was archdcn. of Canterbury (1 Fasti II 14).
From: 'The obit book of Hereford Cathedral: Jan - June', Fasti Ecclesiae
Anglicanae 1066-1300: volume 8: Hereford (2002), pp. 101-128. URL:
_http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=34459_
(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=34459) . Date accessed: 15 February 2008.
Ken
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
We're in a load of trouble now.
-
wjhonson
Re: walter Clifford's 1208 death
If Walter de Clifford who d 1221 was the son of Agnes de Cundi
(referred to as a widow in 1208 Pipe Rolls), then who was the Walter
De Clifford who marrying Margaret verch Llewellyn had a daughter Maud
de Clifford "only child, heir of her father" (citing CP V5p643) who
married William Longespee AND secondly John Giffard of Brimsfield AND
was yet having children in the 1270s or possibly even 1280s.
Surely she wasn't Walter's daughter since he d 1221. Did Walter de
Clifford d 1221 have yet a son Walter de Clifford "Lord of Corfham" ?
Will Johnson
(referred to as a widow in 1208 Pipe Rolls), then who was the Walter
De Clifford who marrying Margaret verch Llewellyn had a daughter Maud
de Clifford "only child, heir of her father" (citing CP V5p643) who
married William Longespee AND secondly John Giffard of Brimsfield AND
was yet having children in the 1270s or possibly even 1280s.
Surely she wasn't Walter's daughter since he d 1221. Did Walter de
Clifford d 1221 have yet a son Walter de Clifford "Lord of Corfham" ?
Will Johnson
-
Volucris
Re: walter Clifford's 1208 death
On 15 feb, 22:07, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Perhaps a younger son of sir Roger I Clifford?
In c 1230 there was talk that his 'eldest' son Roger II could marry
the widow Hawise.
That implies a or more younger sons in c 1230.
Hans Vogels
If Walter de Clifford who d 1221 was the son of Agnes de Cundi
(referred to as a widow in 1208 Pipe Rolls), then who was the Walter
De Clifford who marrying Margaret verch Llewellyn had a daughter Maud
de Clifford "only child, heir of her father" (citing CP V5p643) who
married William Longespee AND secondly John Giffard of Brimsfield AND
was yet having children in the 1270s or possibly even 1280s.
Surely she wasn't Walter's daughter since he d 1221. Did Walter de
Clifford d 1221 have yet a son Walter de Clifford "Lord of Corfham" ?
Will Johnson
Perhaps a younger son of sir Roger I Clifford?
In c 1230 there was talk that his 'eldest' son Roger II could marry
the widow Hawise.
That implies a or more younger sons in c 1230.
Hans Vogels
-
wjhonson
Re: walter Clifford's 1208 death
On Feb 15, 1:25 pm, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
Knowing that there is evidence that Walter, son of Agnes died in 1221,
we'd need now to go back over, again, all the evidence for some Walter
de Clifford to see if we can sort out what happened to his property
and honors.
Perhaps a younger son of sir Roger I Clifford?
In c 1230 there was talk that his 'eldest' son Roger II could marry
the widow Hawise.
That implies a or more younger sons in c 1230.
Hans Vogels
Knowing that there is evidence that Walter, son of Agnes died in 1221,
we'd need now to go back over, again, all the evidence for some Walter
de Clifford to see if we can sort out what happened to his property
and honors.