Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

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Gjest

Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 feb 2008 04:04:02

Some time ago, Chris Phillips, Rosie Bevan and other generous
contributors posted information about Margery, the widow of Nicholas
Criol - and the question of whether she was a Pecche or a Clifford.

http://groups.google.com.au/group/soc.g ... 46281d00b4

A partial abstract of her will was located by Mardi Carter in
Bedfordshire Historical Record
Society vol.14 (1931). A complete abstract, however, may be found in
Gibbons' "Early Lincoln Wills", pp 4-5. I repriduce this below:

"Margerie de Crioll, dated at Irencester, Saturday after the
Annunciation 1319;

to be buried in the choir of the Friors Minor of Bedford, on the right
of Bertram my son;

masses for my soul, and for the soul of Fr. (sic) Richard de Clifford,
my son Bertram, my daughters Katherine de Braddene and Margaret
Hereward, and Robert Hereward;

vestments &c to my chapel at Corby, also four towels [for the same,
one marked with the arms of Leybourne];

five chaplains to celebrate in my chapel of St John at Lillingstone,
five at Irencester, and five at Corby, in the chapel of Our Lady which
I have built; bequests to the churches of Hynton, Croxton,
Hostrynghangre, Irencestre, Serres and Farndish;

to Fr. John de Clifford, 40 shillings; to Sire Richard de Clifford,
canon of Raveneston, 20 shillings;

to Galboun (sic) de Crioll, 10 pounds;

to Lady Margery de Valence, whatever in my wardrobe was her mother's,
also a piece of the true cross, and my Matyns de Notre Dame, which
were my sister Joan's;

Sir John de Pavenham and Elizabeth my daughter his wife, and Elizabeth
their child;

to Lady Margery de Say, a coffer at Irencester which belonged to Sir
Rober Hereward, and a pyne de Euere which belonged to St Thomas of
Canterbury;

to my niece Lady Joan de Playte;

to my nephew Sir Gilbert Petche, garments which Margaret de Willoughby
gave me;

John Hereward; the will of my daughter Margaret Hereward to be
fulfilled;

Reynold my cook;

to Elizabeth de Pavenham, a nun at Shaftesbury, my paternoster of
coral and white pearls, which the Countess of Pembroke gave me;

to my chaplains Simon, 40 sous (sic), and William de Foxcote, 40
shillings;

my little Book of Matyns and Common of the Saints to John Petche;

executors: Sire Gilbert Petche, my nephew; Symon le Brunne; Sire
William de Foxcote [presumably these last two are her chaplains] and
Gilbert de Crioll"

Plenty of good stuff in there!

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 feb 2008 06:34:02

On Feb 11, 2:03 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
"Margerie de Crioll, dated at Irencester, Saturday after the
Annunciation 1319;

Chris et al identified this Margery as the widow of Sir Nicholas de
Crioll the elder (d 1273) of Cherry Hinton etc; she appears to have
held at Irchester and Lillingstone Lovell by virtue of grants and/or
inheritance from the de Clifford family.

to be buried in the choir of the Friors Minor of Bedford, on the right
of Bertram my son;

Bertram has been identified as her son by Sir Nicholas de Crioll

masses for my soul, and for the soul of Fr. (sic) Richard de Clifford,

As Chris has noted, it is unclear whether 'brother Richard de
Clifford" is to be regarded as the brother of the testatrix - who
almost certainly had close family ties with the de Cliffords - as as a
religious. VCH Northants notes that one of that name was Rector of
Ravenstone in 1260, and was probably the same one who was a trustee of
estates at Irchester in circa 1268 to 1289; the latter was the brother
of William de Clifford, Rector of Irchester and Bishop of Emly (ff
1268-1289).

my son Bertram, my daughters Katherine de Braddene and Margaret
Hereward, and Robert Hereward;

Katherine (wife of Geoffrey Braddene of Easton Neston) and Margaret,
wife of Sir Robert Hereward, were daughters of Marjorie Crioll, but it
is not known by what marriage.

vestments &c to my chapel at Corby, also four towels [for the same,
one marked with the arms of Leybourne];

I am unaware of any connection with the Leyborne family.

five chaplains to celebrate in my chapel of St John at Lillingstone,
five at Irencester, and five at Corby, in the chapel of Our Lady which
I have built; bequests to the churches of Hynton

to be identified with Cherry Hinton, Cambs

, Croxton, Hostrynghangre, Irencestre, Serres and Farndish;

to Fr. John de Clifford, 40 shillings; to Sire Richard de Clifford,
canon of Raveneston, 20 shillings;

cf notes on the de Cliffords above

to Galboun (sic) de Crioll, 10 pounds;

?Gilbert de Crioll? - not otherwise known to me.

to Lady Margery de Valence, whatever in my wardrobe was her mother's,
also a piece of the true cross, and my Matyns de Notre Dame, which
were my sister Joan's;

this 'lady Margery de Valance' has me stumped. Was she a daughter of
William, Earl of Pemboke and Joan de Munchensy? I cannot find one of
this name amongst their issue.

Sir John de Pavenham and Elizabeth my daughter his wife, and Elizabeth
their child;

to Lady Margery de Say, a coffer at Irencester which belonged to Sir
Rober Hereward, and a pyne de Euere which belonged to St Thomas of
Canterbury;

to my niece Lady Joan de Playte;

to my nephew Sir Gilbert Petche, garments which Margaret de Willoughby
gave me;

It appears that Margery's step-son, Nicholas de Crioll the younger (d
1303) married Margery, daughter of Gilbert Pecche. Presumably the
Gilbert named in the 1319 will is the 1st Lord Pecche, son of Gilbert
Pecche by his second wife, Joan de Creye (sic); perhaps Margery de
Crioll nee Pecche was his sister, and thus possibly herself a 'niece'
of the elder Margery de Crioll.

John Hereward; the will of my daughter Margaret Hereward to be
fulfilled;

Reynold my cook;

to Elizabeth de Pavenham, a nun at Shaftesbury, my paternoster of
coral and white pearls, which the Countess of Pembroke gave me;

to my chaplains Simon, 40 sous (sic), and William de Foxcote, 40
shillings;

my little Book of Matyns and Common of the Saints to John Petche;

possibly the son of the elder Gilbert Pecche by his first marriage.

MA-R

Louise Staley

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 11 feb 2008 12:54:02

On Feb 11, 4:31 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 11, 2:03 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

snip

vestments &c to my chapel at Corby, also four towels [for the same,
one marked with the arms of Leybourne];

I am unaware of any connection with the Leyborne family.


Thanks for posting this. As you say very interesting.

My notes show Nicholas Criol (d 1273) married Joan Auberville. Joan's
other marriage was to Sir Henry Preston of Sandwich (d bef 1255) and
they were the parents of Juliana Sandwich. Before 16 October 1265
Juliana Sandwich married Sir William Leybourne, 1st Baron Leybourne (d
bef 1310).

Louise

Louise Staley

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 11 feb 2008 13:04:02

On Feb 11, 10:51 pm, Louise Staley <cara...@bigpond.com> wrote:
On Feb 11, 4:31 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

On Feb 11, 2:03 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

snip

vestments &c to my chapel at Corby, also four towels [for the same,
one marked with the arms of Leybourne];

I am unaware of any connection with the Leyborne family.

Thanks for posting this. As you say very interesting.

My notes show Nicholas Criol (d 1273) married Joan Auberville. Joan's
other marriage was to Sir Henry Preston of Sandwich (d bef 1255) and
they were the parents of Juliana Sandwich. Before 16 October 1265
Juliana Sandwich married Sir William Leybourne, 1st Baron Leybourne (d
bef 1310).

Louise

recte Sir Henry Sandwich of Preston

Gjest

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Gjest » 11 feb 2008 13:49:02

On Feb 11, 10:51 pm, Louise Staley <cara...@bigpond.com> wrote:
On Feb 11, 4:31 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

On Feb 11, 2:03 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

snip

vestments &c to my chapel at Corby, also four towels [for the same,
one marked with the arms of Leybourne];

I am unaware of any connection with the Leyborne family.

Thanks for posting this. As you say very interesting.

My notes show Nicholas Criol (d 1273) married Joan Auberville. Joan's
other marriage was to Sir Henry Preston of Sandwich (d bef 1255) and
they were the parents of Juliana Sandwich. Before 16 October 1265
Juliana Sandwich married Sir William Leybourne, 1st Baron Leybourne (d
bef 1310).

Hi Louise

Thanks for that. As I understand it, Joan Auberville was the first
wife of the elder Nicholas Criol (d 1273) - Margery was the second -
and also the mother of the younger Nicholas de Criol.

Cheers, Michael

CE Wood

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av CE Wood » 11 feb 2008 23:46:02

Joan d"Auberville, 1st wife of Nicholas de Criol (d. 1273) was the
mother of Nicholas de Criol (d.1303). Margery de Pecche was the wife
of Nicholas (d.1303). Margery de Clifford was the 2nd wife of
Nicholas (d. 1273).

CE Wood



On Feb 11, 4:47 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 11, 10:51 pm, Louise Staley <cara...@bigpond.com> wrote:



On Feb 11, 4:31 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

On Feb 11, 2:03 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

snip

vestments &c to my chapel at Corby, also four towels [for the same,
one marked with the arms of Leybourne];

I am unaware of any connection with the Leyborne family.

Thanks for posting this. As you say very interesting.

My notes show Nicholas Criol (d 1273) married Joan Auberville. Joan's
other marriage was to Sir Henry Preston of Sandwich (d bef 1255) and
they were the parents of Juliana Sandwich. Before 16 October 1265
Juliana Sandwich married Sir William Leybourne, 1st Baron Leybourne (d
bef 1310).

Hi Louise

Thanks for that. As I understand it, Joan Auberville was the first
wife of the elder Nicholas Criol (d 1273) - Margery was the second -
and also the mother of the younger Nicholas de Criol.

Cheers, Michael

Louise Staley

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Louise Staley » 12 feb 2008 00:18:07

Drawing on an old post by John Ravilious in the thread "The
d'Auberville family of Kent" 6 Nov 2003, he places Nicholas Criol (d
1303) as the son of Joan Auberville

Nicholas Criol
Death: 12 Oct 1303[8]

of Eynsford, Stockbury, Westenhanger, &c., Kent, and Croxton,
Kerrial, co. Leicester

confirmed grants of his ancestor William d'Auberville to the canons
of Langedone, 30 Edw I (1301) [Dugdale, citing Mon. Angl.[1]]

his son (?) was holding a fair and market at Eynsford, Kent:
'In 1312, William Page and Nicholas de Criel were holding a [market
and ] fair, the feast of which was not given (QW, p. 310).'[9]

1. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms,
Tho. Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675
[reprint New York, 1977].

8. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the United Kingdom.

9. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
extracted 5 Nov 2001, Wiltshire [Bassett], Yorkshire [Salvain] - North
Duffield.


My understanding of this family is the same as CE Wood's. Joan was the
mother of Nicholas (d 1303) and this Nicholas married Margery Pecche.

Chris Phillips gave a detailed summary of this family and the problems
with CP and VCH accounts to SGM on 28 April 2002 in the thread
"Margery Pecche of Clifford, wife of Nicholas de Criol."

This is summarised at his website:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/criol.shtml

Louise

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:54:53 -0800 (PST), CE Wood <wood_ce@msn.com>
wrote:

Joan d"Auberville, 1st wife of Nicholas de Criol (d. 1273) was the
mother of Nicholas de Criol (d.1303). Margery de Pecche was the wife
of Nicholas (d.1303). Margery de Clifford was the 2nd wife of
Nicholas (d. 1273).

CE Wood



On Feb 11, 4:47 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 11, 10:51 pm, Louise Staley <cara...@bigpond.com> wrote:



On Feb 11, 4:31 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

On Feb 11, 2:03 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

snip

vestments &c to my chapel at Corby, also four towels [for the same,
one marked with the arms of Leybourne];

I am unaware of any connection with the Leyborne family.

Thanks for posting this. As you say very interesting.

My notes show Nicholas Criol (d 1273) married Joan Auberville. Joan's
other marriage was to Sir Henry Preston of Sandwich (d bef 1255) and
they were the parents of Juliana Sandwich. Before 16 October 1265
Juliana Sandwich married Sir William Leybourne, 1st Baron Leybourne (d
bef 1310).

Hi Louise

Thanks for that. As I understand it, Joan Auberville was the first
wife of the elder Nicholas Criol (d 1273) - Margery was the second -
and also the mother of the younger Nicholas de Criol.

Cheers, Michael

wjhonson

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av wjhonson » 12 feb 2008 04:14:02

I think this is reading too much into what we actually know.
And possibly, in addition, using the same records to create two women
out of one.

What evidence do we have that Nicholas de Criol d 1273 had a second
wife?

Will Johnson

wjhonson

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av wjhonson » 12 feb 2008 05:16:01

I've now read over what Chris Phillips has produced about the past
discussions. I find the reasoning circular in areas. I'm especially
not convinced when an author raise the flag "clearly this shows..."

That to my mind, means that actually it clearly doesn't.

It's certainly possible there were two simulatenous widows named
Margery Crioll, I'm just not yet seeing the need for there to be. For
example, it seems a bit too complex to assume that the 1301 quitclaim
wasn't merely the maritagium for Katherine Crioll to Geoffrey de
Braddene.

And to suggest that we *know* that Nicholas de Crioll died *in* 1303
and thus the 1301 quitclaim cannot be by his widow, is suggesting too
much. We do not know exactly when Nicholas died. He last appears,
afaik, on a battle muster that was dated to 1301. And that's it.
Nothing more.

I would welcome anyone who could set this straight, but I don't find
Chris' write-up convincing.

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Gjest » 12 feb 2008 12:44:02

On Feb 12, 2:36 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

And to suggest that we *know* that Nicholas de Crioll died *in* 1303
and thus the 1301 quitclaim cannot be by his widow, is suggesting too
much.  We do not know exactly when Nicholas died.  He last appears,
afaik, on a battle muster that was dated to 1301.  And that's it.
Nothing more.

I would welcome anyone who could set this straight, but I don't find
Chris' write-up convincing.

Will

Here are some primary items that might assist:

(1) PROCAT C 133/7/10 (IPM): Nicholas de Crioll alias de Curioll:
Huntingdonshire: 2 Edward I [1273-1274]

This tells us that a Nicholas de Crioll died c1273

(2) Calendar of Patent Rolls, 16 February 1272: Grant to Edward, the
King's son, of the wardship of all the lands of Nicholas de Crioll,
who held in chief, with marriage of the heir.

This tells us that the death of this Nicholas de Crioll had occurred
by early 1272, and that he left a minor son and heir.

(3) Calendar of Patent Rolls, 10 February 1272: Whereas Nicholas de
Cryoill, who held in chief, with the assent of the King and the
attorneys of Edward, the King's son, gave to Gilbert Peche the
marriage of Nicholas his son, and afterwards gave to his son and
Margery, daughter of the said Gilbert, whom he married, the manor of
Benhale, Suffolk, and his said son, with the assent of his father,
dowered Margery of the said manor... the King, for fifty marks paid by
Gilbert, confirms the said writings [made between Gilbert and
Nicholas] to Gilbert, Nicholas the son, and Margery his wife.

This tells us that Nicholas (who was dead by February 1272) left a
minor son, also named Nicholas, who married Margery Peche, daughter of
Gilbert Peche. NB the two February 1272 CPR entries seem to be in
conflict, assuming that the younger Nicholas is the son and heir named
in the entry for 16 February, since the grant of his marriage implies
that he was unmarried, whereas the entry for 10 February states he is
married [to Margery Peche].

(4) Calendar of Patent Rolls, October 1277: Mandate to Margery de
Cryoll to pay henceforth into the Exchequer the 10 pounds yearly fee
farm which by the form of her feoffment of the manor of Hinton, Cambs,
she is bound to pay in that town to the bailiffs of the honour of
Richmond.

This tells us that in 1277 there is a Margery de Crioll who is a legal
person (ie not a wife, or else her husband would be named) - she is
either a widow or a spinster.

(5) Calendar of Patent Rolls, 26 July 1280: Mandate to Margery de
Crioll to pay to Gregory de Rokesle, to whom the King has given the
custody, during the minority of the heir, of the lands late of
Nicholas de Crioll... the farm of the manor of Hinton, which is of the
inheritance of the heir.

This tells us that Margery de Crioll of Hinton was connected in some
way to the elder Nicholas de Crioll. She cannot be Margery de Crioll
nee Peche, wife of the younger Nicholas, since as Nicholas was still
living and under-age in 1277 (and 1280) his wife was not a 'legal
person' in the way that we have seen this Margery de Crioll then was.

(6) PROCAT C133/111/19 (IPM): Nicholas Kyriel: Leicestershire, 31-32
Edward I [1302-1304].

We see another Nicholas de Crioll died circa 1303.

(7) PROCAT C133/71/18 (IPM): Bertram de Crioll alias de Criolis: Kent:
23 Edward I [1294-5]

Presumably this is Bertram, the son of Margery de Crioll, named in her
will of 1319.

Doubtless the printed Calendars of Inquisitions Post Mortem would
provide further details of the three IPMs cited above.

MA-R

Patricia A. Junkin

Joan de ? Columbers Zouche

Legg inn av Patricia A. Junkin » 12 feb 2008 19:07:49

All,
Could the second wife of Oliver la Zouche NOT have been a Cobham?
I realize this contradicts the long accepted surname. I was able to
secure a transcript in French and translation of the 1310 suit between
Oliver la Zouche and Joan sometime wife of Michael Columbers/
Columbariis.
In 1284, before her marriage to Oliver la Zouche, in her widowhood,
she signed a document in London which acknowledged Henry de Cobeham's
two parts of Tederlighe. The 1310 suit challenges Cobham's right to
Chissebury, Hentone, Benknolle, Pippardesclive, based on Joan's age at
the time and made demand a third part.
There are terms of relationship regarding the the Cobhams, but nowhere
does it identify Joan as a Cobham.
I believe this Henry de Cobeham, son of John, married Joan de
Penchestre. I have found no research that places Joan Zouche in the
Cobeham family and she may have been able to retain some of the
Wiltshire and Hampshire lands from her Columbariis dower.
Nigel Saul draws a conclusion that Henry de Cobeham married Matilda
Columbers. "Jones de Cobham dedit dne Matilde de Columbariis et
Henrico de Cobham filio suo maneria de Chissebyru, &c s. d. Arms of
Cobham dimidiated; impaling a bend (Columbers)". Collectanea
topographica et genealogica. Frederic Madden p. 327.
Various sources indicate that Michael de Columbers made some
arrangement with the de Cobehams prior to Joan la Zouche's fine and
that John de Cobham, Henry's father, granted Matilda Columbers, widow
of Matthew a part of Chissebury for her lifetime (Matthew dsp and
Michael inherited).
Welcome suggestions.
Pat

CE Wood

Re: Joan de ? Columbers Zouche

Legg inn av CE Wood » 12 feb 2008 20:34:02

I am totally confused. What has this to do with Margery Pecche or
Clifford?

Why make it difficult for those interested in the original thread to
continue it? Do you not know how to initiate your own thread? Please
learn.

CE Wood

On Feb 12, 10:07 am, "Patricia A. Junkin" <pajun...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
All,
Could the second wife of Oliver la Zouche NOT have been a Cobham?
I realize this contradicts the long accepted surname. I was able to
secure a transcript in French and translation of the 1310 suit between
Oliver la Zouche and Joan sometime wife of Michael Columbers/
Columbariis.
In 1284, before her marriage to Oliver la Zouche, in her widowhood,
she signed a document in London which acknowledged Henry de Cobeham's
two parts of Tederlighe. The 1310 suit challenges Cobham's right to
Chissebury, Hentone, Benknolle, Pippardesclive, based on Joan's age at
the time and made demand a third part.
There are terms of relationship regarding the the Cobhams, but nowhere
does it identify Joan as a Cobham.
I believe this Henry de Cobeham, son of John, married Joan de
Penchestre. I have found no research that places Joan Zouche in the
Cobeham family and she may have been able to retain some of the
Wiltshire and Hampshire lands from her Columbariis dower.
Nigel Saul draws a conclusion that Henry de Cobeham married Matilda
Columbers. "Jones de Cobham dedit dne Matilde de Columbariis et
Henrico de Cobham filio suo maneria de Chissebyru, &c s. d. Arms of
Cobham dimidiated; impaling a bend (Columbers)". Collectanea
topographica et genealogica. Frederic Madden p. 327.
Various sources indicate that Michael de Columbers made some
arrangement with the de Cobehams prior to Joan la Zouche's fine and
that John de Cobham, Henry's father, granted Matilda Columbers, widow
of Matthew a part of Chissebury for her lifetime (Matthew dsp and
Michael inherited).
Welcome suggestions.
Pat

Gjest

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2008 00:39:01

On Feb 12, 10:40 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 12, 2:36 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

And to suggest that we *know* that Nicholas de Crioll died *in* 1303
and thus the 1301 quitclaim cannot be by his widow, is suggesting too
much.  We do not know exactly when Nicholas died.  He last appears,
afaik, on a battle muster that was dated to 1301.  And that's it.
Nothing more.

I would welcome anyone who could set this straight, but I don't find
Chris' write-up convincing.

Will

Here are two further primary documents that Chris provided in 2002,
which shed light on the situation:

(1) Bertram de Kyriel obtained the manor of [Cherry] Hinton,
Cambridgeshire,
by exchange with Peter of Savoy, and gave it to Nicholas his son and
Joan
the daughter of William de Abrevile and their heirs; Nicholas begot of
Joan
a son Nicholas, who is under age and in the custody of the king;
Nicholas
enfeoffed Gilbert Peche after which Gilbert was enfeoffed of the said
Nicholas and Margery his wife, who now lives; Gilbert gave to the
said
Nicholas and Margery for their lives by the fine levied between them,
which
was done while the king that now is was in the holy land [8 Edward I
(1279/80); Hundred Rolls vol.2, p.432].

This provides a three-generation pedigree for the Criolls. It shows
that the elder Nicholas married Joan de Auberville, who was the mother
of his son Nicholas (still a minor in 1279 and thus born after 1258).
It also states that a Nicholas married a Margery, but the wording is
sufficiently ambiguous to leave it unclear whether the elder or the
younger is intended.

(2) Margery de Cryoyl who was the wife of Nicholas de Cryoyl held the
manor
of Hinton (Cambridgeshire) 1284-6 [feudal Aids vol.1, p.135].

This would indicated that Margery of Hinton was the widow of Nicholas
de Crioll in 1284-6; the younger Nicholas was still living, so this
indicates that her husband had been the elder Nicholas.

MA-R

Patricia A. Junkin

Re: Joan de ? Columbers Zouche

Legg inn av Patricia A. Junkin » 13 feb 2008 05:07:55

Nothing whatsoever. I posted a new tag line to gen-med concerning
Zouche. One other post popped up in the wrong thread. Will look into
this.
Pat

On Feb 12, 2008, at 1:01 PM, CE Wood wrote:

I am totally confused. What has this to do with Margery Pecche or
Clifford?

Why make it difficult for those interested in the original thread to
continue it? Do you not know how to initiate your own thread? Please
learn.

CE Wood

On Feb 12, 10:07 am, "Patricia A. Junkin" <pajun...@bellsouth.net
wrote:
All,
Could the second wife of Oliver la Zouche NOT have been a Cobham?
I realize this contradicts the long accepted surname. I was able to
secure a transcript in French and translation of the 1310 suit
between
Oliver la Zouche and Joan sometime wife of Michael Columbers/
Columbariis.
In 1284, before her marriage to Oliver la Zouche, in her widowhood,
she signed a document in London which acknowledged Henry de Cobeham's
two parts of Tederlighe. The 1310 suit challenges Cobham's right to
Chissebury, Hentone, Benknolle, Pippardesclive, based on Joan's age
at
the time and made demand a third part.
There are terms of relationship regarding the the Cobhams, but
nowhere
does it identify Joan as a Cobham.
I believe this Henry de Cobeham, son of John, married Joan de
Penchestre. I have found no research that places Joan Zouche in the
Cobeham family and she may have been able to retain some of the
Wiltshire and Hampshire lands from her Columbariis dower.
Nigel Saul draws a conclusion that Henry de Cobeham married Matilda
Columbers. "Jones de Cobham dedit dne Matilde de Columbariis et
Henrico de Cobham filio suo maneria de Chissebyru, &c s. d. Arms of
Cobham dimidiated; impaling a bend (Columbers)". Collectanea
topographica et genealogica. Frederic Madden p. 327.
Various sources indicate that Michael de Columbers made some
arrangement with the de Cobehams prior to Joan la Zouche's fine and
that John de Cobham, Henry's father, granted Matilda Columbers, widow
of Matthew a part of Chissebury for her lifetime (Matthew dsp and
Michael inherited).
Welcome suggestions.
Pat


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Gjest

Re: Joan de ? Columbers Zouche

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2008 05:19:02

On Feb 13, 3:07 pm, "Patricia A. Junkin" <pajun...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Nothing whatsoever. I posted a new tag line to gen-med concerning  
Zouche. One other post popped up in the wrong thread. Will look into  
this.
Pat

I would if I were you Pat - almost all your recent posts have appeared
in the middle of other threads. Not only does this disrupt that
thread [which we can live with], it may serve to 'disguise' your posts
and reduce the chances of your useful information being disseminated,
or of you getting reponses to queries.

Kind regards, Michael

Gjest

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2008 05:34:02

On Feb 12, 10:40 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

Will Johnson has kindly contacted me to make some observations in
respect of the various items below. I shall mark them with my
comments, taking his observations into account (Thanks Will!)

(1) PROCAT C 133/7/10 (IPM): Nicholas de Crioll alias de Curioll:
Huntingdonshire: 2 Edward I [1273-1274]

This tells us that a Nicholas de Crioll died c1273

(2) Calendar of Patent Rolls, 16 February 1272: Grant to Edward, the
King's son, of the wardship of all the lands of Nicholas de Crioll,
who held in chief, with marriage of the heir.

This tells us that the death of this Nicholas de Crioll had occurred
by early 1272, and that he left a minor son and heir.

In fact this tells us that *a* Nicholas de Crioll had occurred by
early 1272, and that he left a minor son and heir. Identifying him
with the man of the same name whose IPM is recorded for 2 Edward I is
an assumption only; for the purpose of trying to resolve this jigsaw,
I am happy to withdrawn that assumption.

(3) Calendar of Patent Rolls, 10 February 1272: Whereas Nicholas de
Cryoill, who held in chief, with the assent of the King and the
attorneys of Edward, the King's son, gave to Gilbert Peche the
marriage of Nicholas his son, and afterwards gave to his son and
Margery, daughter of the said Gilbert, whom he married, the manor of
Benhale, Suffolk, and his said son, with the assent of his father,
dowered Margery of the said manor... the King, for fifty marks paid by
Gilbert, confirms the said writings [made between Gilbert and
Nicholas] to Gilbert, Nicholas the son, and Margery his wife.

This tells us that Nicholas (who was dead by February 1272) left a
minor son,

Will points out that it is not certain from this CPR record that
Nicholas the son was necessarily a minor in February 1272. I agree.

also named Nicholas, who married Margery Peche, daughter of
Gilbert Peche.  NB the two February 1272 CPR entries seem to be in
conflict, assuming that the younger Nicholas is the son and heir named
in the entry for 16 February, since the grant of his marriage implies
that he was unmarried, whereas the entry for 10 February states he is
married [to Margery Peche].

We can at least conclude that Nicholas de Crioll (the father of
Nicholas who married Margery Pecche) was dead by February 1272.

(4) Calendar of Patent Rolls, October 1277: Mandate to Margery de
Cryoll to pay henceforth into the Exchequer the 10 pounds yearly fee
farm which by the form of her feoffment of the manor of Hinton, Cambs,
she is bound to pay in that town to the bailiffs of the honour of
Richmond.

This tells us that in 1277 there is a Margery de Crioll who is a legal
person (ie not a wife, or else her husband would be named) - she is
either a widow or a spinster.

The term 'legal person' is probably wrong here; on reflection I should
probably have said that this Margery had *legal capacity*, and was
thus either a widow or a single woman.

(5) Calendar of Patent Rolls, 26 July 1280: Mandate to Margery de
Crioll to pay to Gregory de Rokesle, to whom the King has given the
custody, during the minority of the heir, of the lands late of
Nicholas de Crioll... the farm of the manor of Hinton, which is of the
inheritance of the heir.

This tells us that Margery de Crioll of Hinton was connected in some
way to the elder Nicholas de Crioll.  She cannot be Margery de Crioll
nee Peche, wife of the younger Nicholas, since as Nicholas was still
living and under-age in 1277 (and 1280) his wife was not a 'legal
person' in the way that we have seen this Margery de Crioll then was.

Again, on its own this record simply tells us that a Margery de Crioll
was a single woman or widow in 1280, and that a Nicholas de Crioll had
died before that date, leaving an heir who was then a minor.

(6) PROCAT C133/111/19 (IPM): Nicholas Kyriel: Leicestershire, 31-32
Edward I [1302-1304].

We see another Nicholas de Crioll died circa 1303.

CP identifies this as Nicholas, the son of Nicholas de Crioll and Joan
de Auberville. It states he was still a minor in 1277, and that he
died in October 1303 leaving a son and heir, Nicholas, variously
stated at the time of his IPM to be a few weeks short of 21, or
recently turned 21.

(7) PROCAT C133/71/18 (IPM): Bertram de Crioll alias de Criolis: Kent:
23 Edward I [1294-5]

Presumably this is Bertram, the son of Margery de Crioll, named in her
will of 1319.

'Presumably' is too strong; I withdraw that. *Possibly* would be
better.

Doubtless the printed Calendars of Inquisitions Post Mortem would
provide further details of the three IPMs cited above.

Any kind souls out there have ready access to the relevant IPM volumes
and feel like putting Will and me out of our misery???

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2008 06:19:02

On Feb 13, 3:31 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

(5) Calendar of Patent Rolls, 26 July 1280: Mandate to Margery de
Crioll to pay to Gregory de Rokesle, to whom the King has given the
custody, during the minority of the heir, of the lands late of
Nicholas de Crioll... the farm of the manor of Hinton, which is of the
inheritance of the heir.

This tells us that Margery de Crioll of Hinton was connected in some
way to the elder Nicholas de Crioll.  She cannot be Margery de Crioll
nee Peche, wife of the younger Nicholas, since as Nicholas was still
living and under-age in 1277 (and 1280) his wife was not a 'legal
person' in the way that we have seen this Margery de Crioll then was.

Again, on its own this record simply tells us that a Margery de Crioll
was a single woman or widow in 1280, and that a Nicholas de Crioll had
died before that date, leaving an heir who was then a minor.

Let's improve on that with this:

Calendar of Close Rolls, 10 June 1280:

"To Isabella de Ayneford [Eynesford]: order to pay to Gregory de
Rokesle, mayor of London, henceforth the 20 pounds yearly that she
renders for the manor of Wrotham, which the King demised to her during
the minority of Nicholas, son and heir of Nicholas de Crioll, a minor
in the King's wardship, as the King had previously granted to Gregory
all the issues from the wardship of the said lands from Michaelmas
last, and he wills that Gregory shall answer for the whole wardship.

"To Margery de Kirioll: whereas the King has granted to the aforesaid
Gregory all the issues from the wardship of the lands that belonged to
Nicholas de Kirioll, which are in the King's hands by reason of
Nicholas, his son and heir, being a minor in the King's custody, to be
received from Michaelmas last until the heir comes of age, rendering
therefore to the Exchequer 10 pounds yearly, and the King wills that
Gregory shall answer for the whole custody: he therefore orders
Margery to pay to Gregory the said 10 pounds that she is thus bound to
pay to the Exchequer".

So we know that Margery, the widow or single woman living in 1280, was
dealing with the inheritance of Nicholas de Crioll, the minor son and
heir of a deceased Nicholas de Crioll.

MA-R

wjhonson

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av wjhonson » 13 feb 2008 07:09:02

On Feb 12, 9:15 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Feb 13, 3:31 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

Calendar of Close Rolls, 10 June 1280:

"To Isabella de Ayneford [Eynesford]: order to pay to Gregory de
Rokesle, mayor of London, henceforth the 20 pounds yearly that she
renders for the manor of Wrotham, which the King demised to her during
the minority of Nicholas, son and heir of Nicholas de Crioll, a minor
in the King's wardship, as the King had previously granted to Gregory
all the issues from the wardship of the said lands from Michaelmas
last, and he wills that Gregory shall answer for the whole wardship.

"To Margery de Kirioll: whereas the King has granted to the aforesaid
Gregory all the issues from the wardship of the lands that belonged to
Nicholas de Kirioll, which are in the King's hands by reason of
Nicholas, his son and heir, being a minor in the King's custody, to be
received from Michaelmas last until the heir comes of age, rendering
therefore to the Exchequer 10 pounds yearly, and the King wills that
Gregory shall answer for the whole custody: he therefore orders
Margery to pay to Gregory the said 10 pounds that she is thus bound to
pay to the Exchequer".

So we know that Margery, the widow or single woman living in 1280, was
dealing with the inheritance of Nicholas de Crioll, the minor son and
heir of a deceased Nicholas de Crioll.



Hmmm you can see above that there were two women, Isabella Eynesford
is to pay 20 pounds yearly for Wrotham to Gregory, and Margery de
Crioll is to pay 10 pounds yearly. I wouldn't say this means that is
"dealing with" the inheritence. She could stand in the same position
as Isabella. That is, she had a manor or something that she is paying
out of. I do agree that taken all-together, the documents would seem
to be illustrative of her being the last wife of Nicholas Crioll who d
1272/3. But this document doesn't quite say that she is in the above
mix *because* of a close relationship to the heir. (i.e. step-mother
if your case is proven).

Gjest

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2008 07:29:02

On Feb 13, 5:08 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

Hmmm you can see above that there were two women, Isabella Eynesford
is to pay 20 pounds yearly for Wrotham to Gregory, and Margery de
Crioll is to pay 10 pounds yearly.  I wouldn't say this means that is
"dealing with" the inheritence.  She could stand in the same position
as Isabella.  That is, she had a manor or something that she is paying
out of.  I do agree that taken all-together, the documents would seem
to be illustrative of her being the last wife of Nicholas Crioll who d
1272/3.  But this document doesn't quite say that she is in the above
mix *because* of a close relationship to the heir. (i.e. step-mother
if your case is proven

True - a 'smoking gun' would be nice. But taken together, and bearing
in mind the otherwise ambiguous Hundred Roll entry about Nicholas and
Margery and Hinton, it is a pretty powerful circumstantial argument.

MA-R

Gjest

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av Gjest » 13 feb 2008 09:44:02

On Feb 13, 5:29 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

True - a 'smoking gun' would be nice.  But taken together, and bearing
in mind the otherwise ambiguous Hundred Roll entry about Nicholas and
Margery and Hinton, it is a pretty powerful circumstantial argument.


FWIW, here's how VCH Cambs reconstructs things:

"In 1249 Peter of Savoy granted the Hinton manor in an exchange, for a
£10 fee farm, to Sir Bertram de Cryol of Kent. Before his death in
1256, Sir Bertram had given it to his eldest son Nicholas, a
Montfortian supporter whose Hinton land was seized in 1265, after the
battle of Evesham, by a supporter of Henry III. Nicholas probably
died in 1272, leaving a son and heir Nicholas, who came of age circa
1282. During his minority, Margery de Cryol, probably his father's
second wife, held the Hinton manor circa 1279-85, perhaps as dower.
After Sir Nicholas the son died in 1303, his widow, another Margery,
similarly occupied Hinton until her death circa 1319. In the 1320s
their son, a third Nicholas, had the manor, rendering the £10 farm to
Queen Isabel circa 1326. He was dead by 1327, when the manor was
occupied by Sir Thomas Hastang as guardian of his minor son John de
Cryol, of age in 1328. In 1341 John sold it to William Clinton..."

From: 'Cherry Hinton: Manors and other estates', A History of the
County of Cambridge and the Isle of Ely: Volume 10: Cheveley,
Flendish, Staine and Staploe Hundreds (north-eastern Cambridgeshire)
(2002), pp. 106-109. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... mpid=18807.
Date accessed: 13 February 2008.

wjhonson

Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas Criol

Legg inn av wjhonson » 13 feb 2008 23:44:05

On Feb 13, 12:42 am, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
FWIW, here's how VCH Cambs reconstructs things:

"In 1249 Peter of Savoy granted the Hinton manor in an exchange, for a
£10 fee farm, to Sir Bertram de Cryol of Kent.  Before his death in
1256, Sir Bertram had given it to his eldest son Nicholas, a
Montfortian supporter whose Hinton land was seized in 1265, after the
battle of Evesham, by a supporter of Henry III.  Nicholas probably
died in 1272, leaving a son and heir Nicholas, who came of age circa
1282.  During his minority, Margery de Cryol, probably his father's
second wife, held the Hinton manor circa 1279-85, perhaps as dower.
After Sir Nicholas the son died in 1303, his widow, another Margery,
similarly occupied Hinton until her death circa 1319.  In the 1320s
their son, a third Nicholas, had the manor, rendering the £10 farm to
Queen Isabel circa 1326.  He was dead by 1327, when the manor was
occupied by Sir Thomas Hastang as guardian of his minor son John de
Cryol, of age in 1328.  In 1341 John sold it to William Clinton..."

From: 'Cherry Hinton: Manors and other estates', A History of the
County of Cambridge and the Isle of Ely: Volume 10: Cheveley,
Flendish, Staine and Staploe Hundreds (north-eastern Cambridgeshire)
(2002), pp. 106-109. URL:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=18807.
Date accessed: 13 February 2008.

Thanks MA-R, this allows a much narrower reading of the birthrange of
Sir John de Crioll if he was yet a minor in 1327 and he was also in
1338 "responsible for a man-at-arms"

Will Johnson

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