KNIGHT

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KNIGHT

Legg inn av Gjest » 25 jan 2008 10:00:07

Gentlemen,

I am trying to explain to a French genealogist the differences between the
idea of French 'nobility' and those of English 'Nobility'.

Legally - nobility in england has been attributed to the holder of a title,
duke, marquis/ess, earl, viscount and Baron - but not Baronet and definitely
not Knight. The holder of one of these titles is 'noble' and his children are
'legally' not noble until the eldest inherits the title, and only the eldest
becomes 'noble' - the rest are 'of the noble house of' (like de' Principi
de'...) and are accorded the honorary rank of nobility but are not de
jure.(this has been patiently expained to me by an officer of the Royal collaege of
Heralds).

I have recently been told that Knighthood conferred nobility to the bearer -
certainly in medieval times, in England - is this true?

I have read in many documents that 'Lords N and Y were present with other
members of the nobility, as well as Sir John X, sir James P, sir Robert B and
other members of the gentry' - this would imply that there was a social
precedence.

I have also read in old french documents (15C) that for instance the founder
of the Family Quisard(Switzerland) was a Niçois 'gentilhomme' in the 14C and
his descendant, Etienne, in the late 15C, was granted a patent of nobility
for his services, his family thence forward was noble - this would imply that
being a 'gentilhomme' was not being 'de la noblesse'!?

Whilst France is a Republic, Nobility has not been abolished(but its legal
status has), nor have the principal Estates - 'Etats' - Noblesse,
Bourgeoisie, Peuple etc - it is therefore difficult to explain English precedence to a
Frenchman.

Anyone has any ideas about knighthood conferring 'nobility' in England?

PG

Renia

Re: KNIGHT

Legg inn av Renia » 25 jan 2008 16:35:52

PDeloriol@aol.com wrote:

Gentlemen,

I am trying to explain to a French genealogist the differences between the
idea of French 'nobility' and those of English 'Nobility'.

Legally - nobility in england has been attributed to the holder of a title,
duke, marquis/ess, earl, viscount and Baron - but not Baronet and definitely
not Knight. The holder of one of these titles is 'noble' and his children are
'legally' not noble until the eldest inherits the title, and only the eldest
becomes 'noble' - the rest are 'of the noble house of' (like de' Principi
de'...) and are accorded the honorary rank of nobility but are not de
jure.(this has been patiently expained to me by an officer of the Royal collaege of
Heralds).

I have recently been told that Knighthood conferred nobility to the bearer -
certainly in medieval times, in England - is this true?

I have read in many documents that 'Lords N and Y were present with other
members of the nobility, as well as Sir John X, sir James P, sir Robert B and
other members of the gentry' - this would imply that there was a social
precedence.

I have also read in old french documents (15C) that for instance the founder
of the Family Quisard(Switzerland) was a Niçois 'gentilhomme' in the 14C and
his descendant, Etienne, in the late 15C, was granted a patent of nobility
for his services, his family thence forward was noble - this would imply that
being a 'gentilhomme' was not being 'de la noblesse'!?

Whilst France is a Republic, Nobility has not been abolished(but its legal
status has), nor have the principal Estates - 'Etats' - Noblesse,
Bourgeoisie, Peuple etc - it is therefore difficult to explain English precedence to a
Frenchman.

Anyone has any ideas about knighthood conferring 'nobility' in England?


Lloyd's Encyclopaedic Dictionary, 1893
QUOTE
Nobility:
1. The quality or state of being noble, that elevation of soul (etc, etc).
2. The quality or state of being of noble birth or rank (etc, etc)
3. Those persons collectively who are of noble rank; the collective body
of noble or titled persons in a state; the peerage: as, the English
nobility, the French nobility, etc.
In Great Britain there are five ranks or degrees of nobility, viz,
dukes
marquises
earls
viscounts and
barons
Titles, or patents of nobility, can only be confirmed by the sovereign,
and are hereditary except in isolated cases where life peerages are created.
ENDQUOTE

That excludes knights and baronets, as you said.

Hickory

Re: KNIGHT

Legg inn av Hickory » 25 jan 2008 18:30:05

In modern England, being noble has come to mean being a peer of the
realm. In medieval England the idea of a "peer of the realm" was never
more than roughly defined, remaining a fluid concept. It took
centuries to develop and did not reach its modern form until well into
the modern era in Stuart times. Consequently, there was a popular
identification of gentility being equivalent to nobility in earlier
times and those individuals belonging to armigerous families were
often described in English church documents as being of noble birth.
To complicate things, Scotland and England operate under different
legal codes with regard to the granting of coats of arms. In Scotland
of today, those granted coats of arms by Lord Lyon are described as
belonging to the "noblesse" of Scotland and authorities in other
countries are requested to grant the bearers of these Scottish arms
the same courtesies of rank they would a member of the noblesse of
their own country. My guess is that due to the fact that the same
language is normally used in both places, a modern Scotsman might,
with regard to the concept of being noble, typically see things in
much the same way as a modern Englishman, even though the legal
definition of an armigerous individual is quite different between
these two parts of the United Kingdom.

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