Granada - king or Emir ?

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M.Sjostrom

Granada - king or Emir ?

Legg inn av M.Sjostrom » 25 jan 2008 00:10:05

Francisco, I respectfully disagree with at least two
of your contentions stated above:

1. Emir is generally not translated nor interpreted as
king; rather, its conventional interpretation is
Prince. Hopefully the following two examples will help
you and others to comprehend this: In 1946, Abdullah
I, Emir of Transjordan until that, specifically
adopted a higher title as ruler and became King of
Transjordan. In 2002, Hamad, Emir of Bahrain until
that, specifically adopted a higher title as ruler,
and was proclaimed King of Bahrain.

2. Sultan is basically not limited to nor originally
a Turkish term. It is of Arabic origin as word. It has
been and is used in a variety of countries, a clear
majority of them non-Turkic: Sultan of Morocco
(historical), Sultan of Oman (current), Sultan of
Zanzibar, Sultan of Johore...
Sultan does not generally get translated as emperor.
Rather, if one looks carefully, emperors tend to be
'Padishah' in Arabic.



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Francisco Tavares de Alme

Re: Granada - king or Emir ?

Legg inn av Francisco Tavares de Alme » 25 jan 2008 01:20:09

On 24 Jan, 23:58, "M.Sjostrom" <q...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Francisco, I respectfully disagree with at least two
of your contentions stated above:

1. Emir is generally not translated nor interpreted as
king; rather, its conventional interpretation is
Prince. Hopefully the following two examples will help
you and others to comprehend this: In 1946, Abdullah
I, Emir of Transjordan until that, specifically
adopted a higher title as ruler and became King of
Transjordan. In 2002, Hamad, Emir of Bahrain until
that, specifically adopted a higher title as ruler,
and was proclaimed King of Bahrain.

2. Sultan is basically not limited to nor originally
a Turkish term. It is of Arabic origin as word. It has
been and is used in a variety of countries, a clear
majority of them non-Turkic: Sultan of Morocco
(historical), Sultan of Oman (current), Sultan of
Zanzibar, Sultan of Johore...
Sultan does not generally get translated as emperor.
Rather, if one looks carefully, emperors tend to be
'Padishah' in Arabic.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62s ... o8Wcj9tAcJ

You don't need to be respectfull to disagree with me. ;-)
Getting to the point I am afraid we are talking about different things
and different times.
I think you are right about malek but roughly in the first 5 or 6
centuries of Islam I think my assertions are correct with rare
exceptions. In the examples you gave, both in modern age, it seems to
me in both cases that the title of king was more an *westernization* a
political option than a *promotion* to a higher title.
And I don't deny that sultan is a word of arabic origin; what I say is
that it was applied to seljucid turks and only to turks for a long
time. In Morocco, your historical example, the sultans were preceded
by emirs. The most promising line of Prophetic blood to Europe gets to
al-Andalus through the sharifs of Maghreb and the Idrissids, emirs of
Morocco and later caliphs of Cordoba.
If my memory is not failing me, the first rulers of Morocco that used
the title of sultans were the Almoravids, berbers, already on the
second half of the 11th century.

Best regards,
Francisco

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