Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as niec
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as niec
Dear Newsgroup ~
I've posted below an example of the name form "Colette" drawn from a
medieval English document dated 1232. One version below is a
transcript of the original Latin text published in the book, The
Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, edited by Geoffrey
Barraclough. The second versiion is a slightly inaccurate English
translation of the Latin text published in the Calendar of the Patent
Rolls (for example, the words "in vita sua" in the Latin text are
ignored by the modern editor.).
The person here called Colette is better known to us in other records
as Nichole d'Aubeney (living 1243), first wife of Sir Roger de Somery,
of Dudley (in Sedgley), Staffordshire, which lady was one of the
sisters and co-heirs of Hugh d'Aubeney, Earl of Arundel. This record
is an instance in which the Latin word "nepti" for once actually means
niece, instead of the more vague term kinswoman.
Source #1: Geoffrey Barraclough, ed., The Charters of the Anglo-Norman
Earls of Chester, c. 1071-1237 (Rec. Soc. of Lancashire and Cheshire
126) (1988): 437-438.
"Confirmation of the grant of thirty librates of land which Earl
Ranulf made in his lifetime to his niece Colette, daughter of the late
earl of Arundel, as her marriage portion, to be assigned from the
manor of Leeds in the county of York. [1232]."
"P.R.O., C.66 (Chancery Patent Rolls), no. 43, m. 9. Ed.: Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-1247, pp. 2-3; English abstract, Honours & Knights Fees,
pg. 10."
"Rex concessionem et assignationem, quam Rannulfus quondam comes
Cestrie et Lincolnie in vita sua fecit Colette nepti sue filie W.
quondam comitis Arundell ad se maritandum de xxx. libratis terre cum
pertinentiis, assignandis ei in portione Hugonis de Albiniaco, quem
ipsum continget et hereditate, que fuit predicti comitis, gratam habet
et acceptam, ipsamque pro se et heredibus suis concedit rex et
confirmat, volens quod predicte xxx. librate terre assignentur ei in
manerio de Ledes in comitatu Eboracensi."
"Henry III's confirmation, from which this abstract is taken, is dated
22 November 1232, less than one month after Ranulf III's death. The
text of Ranulf's grant has not survived, but it can safely be assumed
that it was made, like his grant of the county of Lincoln to his
sister Hawise, within a few weeks of his death. Ranulf had acquired
the manor of Leeds in 1217 (J.C.A.S., lviii p. 107). END OF QUOTE.
Source #2: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-1247 (1906), pp. 2-3.
Date: 22 November 1232.
"Confirmation of an assignment of Randolf [sic], sometime earl of
Chester and Lincoln, to Coletta, his niece, daughter of W. sometime
earl of Arundel, for her marriage, of land to the value of 30l. a year
in the portion falling to Hugh de Albiniaco as his share of the
inheritance of the said earl; and the king wills that the said land be
assigned to her in the manor of Ledes, co. York, on condition that
allowance be made to the said Hugh in the partition of the inheritance
of the said earl." END OF QUOTE.
The above record from the Patent Rolls can be found at the following
two weblinks:
pg. 2: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0002.pdf
pg. 3: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0003.pdf
Comments are invited, indeed welcome. However, please cite your
sources, and provide weblinks if you have them, otherwise you'll
probably just be ignored.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I've posted below an example of the name form "Colette" drawn from a
medieval English document dated 1232. One version below is a
transcript of the original Latin text published in the book, The
Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, edited by Geoffrey
Barraclough. The second versiion is a slightly inaccurate English
translation of the Latin text published in the Calendar of the Patent
Rolls (for example, the words "in vita sua" in the Latin text are
ignored by the modern editor.).
The person here called Colette is better known to us in other records
as Nichole d'Aubeney (living 1243), first wife of Sir Roger de Somery,
of Dudley (in Sedgley), Staffordshire, which lady was one of the
sisters and co-heirs of Hugh d'Aubeney, Earl of Arundel. This record
is an instance in which the Latin word "nepti" for once actually means
niece, instead of the more vague term kinswoman.
Source #1: Geoffrey Barraclough, ed., The Charters of the Anglo-Norman
Earls of Chester, c. 1071-1237 (Rec. Soc. of Lancashire and Cheshire
126) (1988): 437-438.
"Confirmation of the grant of thirty librates of land which Earl
Ranulf made in his lifetime to his niece Colette, daughter of the late
earl of Arundel, as her marriage portion, to be assigned from the
manor of Leeds in the county of York. [1232]."
"P.R.O., C.66 (Chancery Patent Rolls), no. 43, m. 9. Ed.: Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-1247, pp. 2-3; English abstract, Honours & Knights Fees,
pg. 10."
"Rex concessionem et assignationem, quam Rannulfus quondam comes
Cestrie et Lincolnie in vita sua fecit Colette nepti sue filie W.
quondam comitis Arundell ad se maritandum de xxx. libratis terre cum
pertinentiis, assignandis ei in portione Hugonis de Albiniaco, quem
ipsum continget et hereditate, que fuit predicti comitis, gratam habet
et acceptam, ipsamque pro se et heredibus suis concedit rex et
confirmat, volens quod predicte xxx. librate terre assignentur ei in
manerio de Ledes in comitatu Eboracensi."
"Henry III's confirmation, from which this abstract is taken, is dated
22 November 1232, less than one month after Ranulf III's death. The
text of Ranulf's grant has not survived, but it can safely be assumed
that it was made, like his grant of the county of Lincoln to his
sister Hawise, within a few weeks of his death. Ranulf had acquired
the manor of Leeds in 1217 (J.C.A.S., lviii p. 107). END OF QUOTE.
Source #2: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-1247 (1906), pp. 2-3.
Date: 22 November 1232.
"Confirmation of an assignment of Randolf [sic], sometime earl of
Chester and Lincoln, to Coletta, his niece, daughter of W. sometime
earl of Arundel, for her marriage, of land to the value of 30l. a year
in the portion falling to Hugh de Albiniaco as his share of the
inheritance of the said earl; and the king wills that the said land be
assigned to her in the manor of Ledes, co. York, on condition that
allowance be made to the said Hugh in the partition of the inheritance
of the said earl." END OF QUOTE.
The above record from the Patent Rolls can be found at the following
two weblinks:
pg. 2: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0002.pdf
pg. 3: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h ... ge0003.pdf
Comments are invited, indeed welcome. However, please cite your
sources, and provide weblinks if you have them, otherwise you'll
probably just be ignored.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Renia
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Is that a French surname I see before me?
Dear Newsgroup ~
I've posted below an example of the name form "Colette" drawn from a
medieval English document dated 1232. One version below is a
transcript of the original Latin text published in the book, The
Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, edited by Geoffrey
Barraclough. The second versiion is a slightly inaccurate English
translation of the Latin text published in the Calendar of the Patent
Rolls (for example, the words "in vita sua" in the Latin text are
ignored by the modern editor.).
The person here called Colette is better known to us in other records
as Nichole d'Aubeney (living 1243), first wife of Sir Roger de Somery,
of Dudley (in Sedgley), Staffordshire, which lady was one of the
sisters and co-heirs of Hugh d'Aubeney,
Is that a French surname I see before me?
-
John Briggs
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
Renia wrote:
He's not listening
--
John Briggs
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
I've posted below an example of the name form "Colette" drawn from a
medieval English document dated 1232. One version below is a
transcript of the original Latin text published in the book, The
Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, edited by Geoffrey
Barraclough. The second versiion is a slightly inaccurate English
translation of the Latin text published in the Calendar of the Patent
Rolls (for example, the words "in vita sua" in the Latin text are
ignored by the modern editor.).
The person here called Colette is better known to us in other records
as Nichole d'Aubeney (living 1243), first wife of Sir Roger de
Somery, of Dudley (in Sedgley), Staffordshire, which lady was one of
the sisters and co-heirs of Hugh d'Aubeney,
Is that a French surname I see before me?
He's not listening
--
John Briggs
-
AdrianBnjmBurke
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
On Dec 19, 1:57 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Question: Hugh de Albiniaco. Is Albiniaco, Albany?
Dear Newsgroup ~
I've posted below an example of the name form "Colette" drawn from a
medieval English document dated 1232. One version below is a
transcript of the original Latin text published in the book, The
Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, edited by Geoffrey
Barraclough. The second versiion is a slightly inaccurate English
translation of the Latin text published in the Calendar of the Patent
Rolls (for example, the words "in vita sua" in the Latin text are
ignored by the modern editor.).
The person here called Colette is better known to us in other records
as Nichole d'Aubeney (living 1243), first wife of Sir Roger de Somery,
of Dudley (in Sedgley), Staffordshire, which lady was one of the
sisters and co-heirs of Hugh d'Aubeney, Earl of Arundel. This record
is an instance in which the Latin word "nepti" for once actually means
niece, instead of the more vague term kinswoman.
Source #1: Geoffrey Barraclough, ed., The Charters of the Anglo-Norman
Earls of Chester, c. 1071-1237 (Rec. Soc. of Lancashire and Cheshire
126) (1988): 437-438.
"Confirmation of the grant of thirty librates of land which Earl
Ranulf made in his lifetime to his niece Colette, daughter of the late
earl of Arundel, as her marriage portion, to be assigned from the
manor of Leeds in the county of York. [1232]."
"P.R.O., C.66 (Chancery Patent Rolls), no. 43, m. 9. Ed.: Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1232-1247, pp. 2-3; English abstract, Honours & Knights Fees,
pg. 10."
"Rex concessionem et assignationem, quam Rannulfus quondam comes
Cestrie et Lincolnie in vita sua fecit Colette nepti sue filie W.
quondam comitis Arundell ad se maritandum de xxx. libratis terre cum
pertinentiis, assignandis ei in portione Hugonis de Albiniaco, quem
ipsum continget et hereditate, que fuit predicti comitis, gratam habet
et acceptam, ipsamque pro se et heredibus suis concedit rex et
confirmat, volens quod predicte xxx. librate terre assignentur ei in
manerio de Ledes in comitatu Eboracensi."
"Henry III's confirmation, from which this abstract is taken, is dated
22 November 1232, less than one month after Ranulf III's death. The
text of Ranulf's grant has not survived, but it can safely be assumed
that it was made, like his grant of the county of Lincoln to his
sister Hawise, within a few weeks of his death. Ranulf had acquired
the manor of Leeds in 1217 (J.C.A.S., lviii p. 107). END OF QUOTE.
Source #2: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1232-1247 (1906), pp. 2-3.
Date: 22 November 1232.
"Confirmation of an assignment of Randolf [sic], sometime earl of
Chester and Lincoln, to Coletta, his niece, daughter of W. sometime
earl of Arundel, for her marriage, of land to the value of 30l. a year
in the portion falling to Hugh de Albiniaco as his share of the
inheritance of the said earl; and the king wills that the said land be
assigned to her in the manor of Ledes, co. York, on condition that
allowance be made to the said Hugh in the partition of the inheritance
of the said earl." END OF QUOTE.
The above record from the Patent Rolls can be found at the following
two weblinks:
pg. 2:http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v3/body/Henry3vol3page0002.pdf
pg. 3:http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h3v3/body/Henry3vol3page0003.pdf
Comments are invited, indeed welcome. However, please cite your
sources, and provide weblinks if you have them, otherwise you'll
probably just be ignored.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Question: Hugh de Albiniaco. Is Albiniaco, Albany?
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
On Dec 19, 1:17 pm, AdrianBnjmBurke <adrianbenjaminbu...@gmail.com>
wrote:
"de Albiniaco" is the Latin form of d'Aubeney.
DR
wrote:
Question: Hugh de Albiniaco. Is Albiniaco, Albany?
"de Albiniaco" is the Latin form of d'Aubeney.
DR
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
On Dec 19, 12:48 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
< Is that a French surname I see before me?
What do you mean, Renia?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
< Is that a French surname I see before me?
What do you mean, Renia?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Renia
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Well, it wouldn't be surprising to find a French Christian name
accompanying a French surname. Nicolette/Colette/Nichola.
On Dec 19, 12:48 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
Is that a French surname I see before me?
What do you mean, Renia?
Well, it wouldn't be surprising to find a French Christian name
accompanying a French surname. Nicolette/Colette/Nichola.
-
Renia
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
Douglas Richardson wrote:
Where does this family originate from?
On Dec 19, 1:17 pm, AdrianBnjmBurke <adrianbenjaminbu...@gmail.com
wrote:
Question: Hugh de Albiniaco. Is Albiniaco, Albany?
"de Albiniaco" is the Latin form of d'Aubeney.
Where does this family originate from?
-
letiTiAflufF@gmail.com
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
On Dec 19, 4:40 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
John Brandon's sock puppet John Briggs
holding hands with JLA bud Renia
cross-posting to gen-medieval
JLA forum whodats
Renia wrote:
whodat? whodat? whodat?
Is that a Renia I see before me?
is that a sock puppet John Briggs I see before me?
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
Douglas Richardson wrote:
On Dec 19, 12:48 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
Is that a French surname I see before me?
What do you mean, Renia?
From: Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:03:53 +0200
letiTiAflufF@gmail.com wrote:
Certainly superior to MA-R's tacky little poem
about
the vestry
busybodies ...
MA-R as in mjcar@btinternet.com's
sock puppet as in Candide John Brandon?
You got a friend, as in JLA bud Renia?
JLA? Whodat?
From: John Brandon <starbuck95@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:30:25 -0800 (PST)
You got a friend, as in JLA bud Renia?
JLA? Whodat?
Maybe she means JO bud Renia ...?
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
JLA FORUMS Index -> Miscellaneous Politics -
Royalty
John Briggs
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:47 am Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
Jan Böhme wrote:
Quote:
On 16 Dec, 16:37, "John Briggs"
john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Jan Böhme wrote:
On 14 Dec, 19:08, "John Briggs"
john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Strictly speaking, Colin is a pet form, rather than
a
nickname.
I thought pet forms were included under nicknames,
rather than
being a different category. At least from a
standpoint
of
etymology, a nickname is anything that you're called
that isn't
your name.
In which case they aren't strictly nicknames - we
should be talking
about hypocoristic names, and they are mostly
diminutives or double
diminutives.
But there is no semantic difference between "pet
name"
and
"hypocoristic name", is there? The latter just
sounds
more fancy, and
suggests a little more that one knows what one is
talking about,
that's all.
The semantic difference is that hypocoristic names
are
not nicknames. I was
mistaken in trying to perpetuate a distinction
between
nick forms and pet
forms for diminutives.
Quote:
In a very real sense, they *were* your name, in a
way
that epithets
and pejorative nicknames weren't.
Now we're getting into philosophy, but are really
things that you
always are called by your intimate friends
necessarily
more your name
than things that you always are called by your
enemies?
This said, I agree that, for instance the more or
less
fossilised
diminutives of Russian names must be regarded as
proper names. If a
certain name form is compulsory whenever you use
first
name alone,
then it is a compulsory variant of a proper name.
We are dealing with the special circumstances of
medieval England, where
there was distinct shortage of names.
"Will was a distinct youth from Willot, Willot from
Wilmot, Wilmot from
Wilkin, and Wilkin from Wilcock. There might be half
a
dozen Johns about the
farmstead, but it mattered little so long as one was
called Jack, another
Jenning, a third Jenkin, a fourth Jackcock (now
Jacox
as a surname), a fifth
Brownjohn, and a sixth Micklejohn, or Littlejohn, or
Properjohn (i.e. well
built or handsome)."
Charles W. Bardsley, Curiosities of Puritan
Nomenclature.
--
John Briggs
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
Renia wrote:
Piggybacking.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
As I've stated in previous posts over the years on
soc.genealogy.medieval, Colin is the medieval
nickname
in England
of Nicholas, just as Colette was the female nickname
for Nichole.
Colette is the shortened form or diminutive of the
French name,
Nicolette. With that in mind, I can see the
reasoning
for Colin being
a French diminutive for Nicholas (pron. Col-ann).
For that you'd need to find it in France. But he's
just tying himself in
knots - as I said, he'd be hard pressed to find
examples of "Colette" from
England.
--
John Briggs
Renia
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
David wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 16, 4:30 am, "Jan Böhme" <jan.bo...@sh.se
wrote:
On 15 Dec, 05:09, David <ds...@softhome.net> wrote:
Obviously "Henri" (of which "Henry" is only a
spelling
variant)
Indeed - used as an alternative (albeit
progressively
more unusual) in
French to this day.
could be used *in English* in 1258.
Yes, but that doesn't prove anything as to whether
the
name so used in
an English text actually is an English name, rather
than a French one.
I can give you lots of quotes in contemporary
English
texts containing
the name "Hu Yaobang". You surely wouldn't use this
as
a proof that
"Hu Yaobang" is an English name.
The problem here is that the French name Henri/Henry
may well be
written exactly the same way as the English name
"Henry". However,
_if_ John is correct that the original English
pronunciation of
"Henry" is "Harry", then one can fairly assume that
all occurrences of
"Henry" before the first appearance of "Harry" in an
English text
actually refer to the French name.
Jan Böhme
That's the sort of argument that is non-falsifiable:
any instance of
"Henry" in an English text can be deemed French, and
only instances of
"Harry" will be found to be English!
Not really. It's to do with pronounciation. Henry in
French and Harry in
English sound similar, particularly if you take into
account the English
lack of talent for adopting French accents.
Renia
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
David wrote:
Quote:
Of course in the 13th century the distinction is
meaningless; the name
is not an Anglo-Saxon one (although Saxon*ized*
versions of it appear,
e.g. "Heanric", "Heinric", with reference to
foreigners) and early
English instances of it are going to be "French",
that
is, used by
people influenced by the nomenclature habitual to
the
Norman-Angevin-
French ruling class -- which by the 13th century was
pretty much
everybody in England.
Really?
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John Briggs
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
edespalais@yahoo.fr wrote:
Quote:
When will somebody quote the word "nepos" as it
should
be quoted
correctly ("nepoti", may appear in the original
text;
but that is an
other business!)?
Do you actually have anything to contribute, or are
you just whingeing?
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
Renia wrote:
Quote:
David wrote:
Of course in the 13th century the distinction is
meaningless; the
name is not an Anglo-Saxon one (although Saxon*ized*
versions of it
appear, e.g. "Heanric", "Heinric", with reference to
foreigners) and
early English instances of it are going to be
"French", that is,
used by people influenced by the nomenclature
habitual
to the
Norman-Angevin- French ruling class -- which by the
13th century was
pretty much everybody in England.
Really?
"Before many generations had passed, Bartholomew,
Simon, Peter, Philip,
Thomas, Nicholas, John and Elias, had engrossed a
third of the male
population; yet the Domesday Book has no Philip, no
Thomas, only one
Nicholas, and but a sprinkling of Johns. It was not
long before Jack and
Jill took the place of Godric and Godgivu as
representative of the English
sexes, yet Jack was from the Bible, and Jill from
the
saintly Calendar."
Charles W. Bardsley, Curiosities of Puritan
Nomenclture, p.2.
--
John Briggs
Renia
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
John Briggs wrote:
Quote:
Renia wrote:
Well, there was one Thomas. He was Archbishop of
York,
also known as
Thomas of Bayeux. There were 5 men called Nicholas
in
Domesday Book.
Ncolaus Aurifaber was goldsmith to Earl Hugh of
Chester. Nicolaus
Balistarius appeared in Domesday Devon. A tenand of
William de Warenne
in Cambridgeshire, was Nicolaus De Kenet. A man
called
Nicolaus was
tenant of Abingdon Abbey, and another appears in
Staffordshire and was
probably sheriff. There were ten people called John,
3
called Simon and
8 called Peter in Domesday Book.
John Briggs
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
Renia wrote:
Quote:
John Briggs wrote:
Renia wrote:
David wrote:
Of course in the 13th century the distinction is
meaningless; the
name is not an Anglo-Saxon one (although Saxon*ized*
versions of it
appear, e.g. "Heanric", "Heinric", with reference to
foreigners)
and early English instances of it are going to be
"French", that
is, used by people influenced by the nomenclature
habitual to the
Norman-Angevin- French ruling class -- which by the
13th century
was pretty much everybody in England.
Really?
"Before many generations had passed, Bartholomew,
Simon, Peter,
Philip, Thomas, Nicholas, John and Elias, had
engrossed a third of
the male population; yet the Domesday Book has no
Philip, no Thomas,
only one Nicholas, and but a sprinkling of Johns. It
was not long
before Jack and Jill took the place of Godric and
Godgivu as
representative of the English sexes, yet Jack was
from
the Bible,
and Jill from the saintly Calendar." Charles W.
Bardsley, Curiosities of
Puritan Nomenclture, p.2.
Well, there was one Thomas. He was Archbishop of
York,
also known as
Thomas of Bayeux. There were 5 men called Nicholas
in
Domesday Book.
Ncolaus Aurifaber was goldsmith to Earl Hugh of
Chester. Nicolaus
Balistarius appeared in Domesday Devon. A tenand of
William de Warenne
in Cambridgeshire, was Nicolaus De Kenet. A man
called
Nicolaus was
tenant of Abingdon Abbey, and another appears in
Staffordshire and was
probably sheriff. There were ten people called John,
3
called Simon
and 8 called Peter in Domesday Book.
Perhaps he meant TRE?
--
John Briggs
Renia
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
John Briggs wrote:
Quote:
Renia wrote:
John Briggs wrote:
Renia wrote:
David wrote:
Perhaps he meant TRE?
Domesday Book is Domesday Book. If he meant during
the
time of Edward,
he would have said so, I imagine.
Bryn
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
Needing no introduction "an" Usenet stalwart wrote:
Quote:
On 16 déc, 19:06, David <ds...@softhome.net> wrote:
On Dec 16, 4:30 am, "Jan Böhme" <jan.bo...@sh.se
wrote:
On 15 Dec, 05:09, David <ds...@softhome.net> wrote:
Obviously "Henri" (of which "Henry" is only a
spelling
variant)
Indeed - used as an alternative (albeit
progressively
more unusual) in
French to this day.
could be used *in English* in 1258.
Yes, but that doesn't prove anything as to whether
the
name so used in
an English text actually is an English name, rather
than a French one.
I can give you lots of quotes in contemporary
English
texts containing
the name "Hu Yaobang". You surely wouldn't use this
as
a proof that
"Hu Yaobang" is an English name.
The problem here is that the French name Henri/Henry
may well be
written exactly the same way as the English name
"Henry". However,
_if_ John is correct that the original English
pronunciation of
"Henry" is "Harry", then one can fairly assume that
all occurrences of
"Henry" before the first appearance of "Harry" in an
English text
actually refer to the French name.
Jan Böhme
That's the sort of argument that is non-falsifiable:
any instance of
"Henry" in an English text can be deemed French, and
only instances of
"Harry" will be found to be English!
Of course in the 13th century the distinction is
meaningless; the name
is not an Anglo-Saxon one (although Saxon*ized*
versions of it appear,
e.g. "Heanric", "Heinric", with reference to
foreigners) and early
English instances of it are going to be "French",
that
is, used by
people influenced by the nomenclature habitual to
the
Norman-Angevin-
French ruling class -- which by the 13th century was
pretty much
everybody in England.
Given what is known about the history and
transmission
of the name, I
see no reason to suppose that "Harry" is the
"original
pronunciation"
of "Henry" in English -- the "original
pronunciation"
would have been
the closest approximation of French "Henri" in an
English mouth in the
11th century, when the name was introduced. I do not
know enough
about medieval Norman-French to know exactly what
that
would have
been, but all the borrowings of French -en- into
English that I think
of are pronounced with a lax e-sound, and are
sharply
distinct from -
an- (which frequently became labialized to -aun-).
The
Anglo-Saxon
"Heanric" types -- if they were at all propagated
and
not displaced by
new Norman-French pronunciations -- would also
naturally have
developed into "Henry". That a pronunciation [hari]
or
[har:i]
eventually arose is certain, and it may even have
been
fairly early,
but it seems most probable that it's derived
directly
from a name
pronounced, more or less, [hEnri]. Whether the [a]
of
the name is
from the frequent change of English [Er] to [ar], or
is influenced by
the French change of [E~] to [a~], I don't know, but
the probability
of a change *within* English seems greater than the
likelihood of
"Henri" being borrowed ab initio with the
*pronunciation* [har:i].
The use of an initial [h] is a rather strong
indication that the
spelling was being followed, unless [h] was
conserved,
or
reintroduced, in Norman-French.
When will somebody quote the word "nepos" as it
should
be quoted
correctly ("nepoti", may appear in the original
text;
but that is an
other business!)?
Pompeii ex filia nepos O:-)
--
Moon-daubed bush-clover--
ssh, in the next room
snoring prostitutes.
Bashõ
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JLA FORUMS Index -> Miscellaneous Politics -
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From: "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: Example of Colette in English medieval
record/Neptis as niece
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:48:40 GMT
References:
1645df3e-c38d-4c91-bdbb-5bfffe6fcdda@d2 ... groups.com><fkbsh6$lrm$2@mouse.otenet.gr
Renia wrote:
From: Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr
Subject: Re: Example of Colette in English medieval
record/Neptis as niece
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:48:00 +0200
References:
1645df3e-c38d-4c91-bdbb-5bfffe6fcdda@d2 ... groups.com
In-Reply-To:
1645df3e-c38d-4c91-bdbb-5bfffe6fcdda@d2 ... groups.com
of Dudley (in Sedgley), Staffordshire, which lady
was one of the
sisters and co-heirs of Hugh d'Aubeney,
Is that a French surname I see before me?
Is that a French surname I see before me?
He's not listening
--
John Briggs
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
From: Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:03:53 +0200
letiTiAflufF@gmail.com wrote:
Certainly superior to MA-R's tacky little poem
about
the vestry
busybodies ...
MA-R as in mjcar@btinternet.com's
sock puppet as in Candide John Brandon?
You got a friend, as in JLA bud Renia?
JLA? Whodat?
(c) 1998-2007 JLA ENTERPRISES TECHNOLOGIES INTEGRATION
Powered by phpBB (c) 2001, 2007 phpBB Group
From: John Brandon <starbuck95@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:30:25 -0800 (PST)
You got a friend, as in JLA bud Renia?
JLA? Whodat?
Maybe he means JO bud Renia ...?
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
From: Renia <renia@DELETEotenet.gr
Subject: Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as niece
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:40:39 +0200
Douglas Richardson wrote:
On Dec 19, 12:48 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
Is that a French surname I see before me?
What do you mean, Renia?
Renia wrote:
Is that a French surname I see before me?
Is that a French surname I see before me?
He's not listening
--
John Briggs
John Brandon's sock puppet John Briggs
holding hands with JLA bud Renia
cross-posting to gen-medieval
JLA forum whodats
Renia wrote:
whodat? whodat? whodat?
Is that a Renia I see before me?
is that a sock puppet John Briggs I see before me?
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
-
wjhonson
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
Can we be certain that when this confirmation was made, just based on
its text, not on any other document, that : A) Nicole was yet living?
and B) Nicole was yet unmarried to anyone?
I ask because I currently has no *good* indication of when Nicole
married Roger de Somery (Lord of Dudley) and I only have a vague note
that she was dead by 1257 but living in 1222.
Thanks
Will Johnson
its text, not on any other document, that : A) Nicole was yet living?
and B) Nicole was yet unmarried to anyone?
I ask because I currently has no *good* indication of when Nicole
married Roger de Somery (Lord of Dudley) and I only have a vague note
that she was dead by 1257 but living in 1222.
Thanks
Will Johnson
-
letiTiAflufF@gmail.com
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
On Dec 19, 4:40 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
King John Brandon's sock puppet John Briggs
holds court with Queen Renia
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
whodat, whodat, whodat
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
whodat? whodat? whodat?
JB & Renia, JB & Renia, JB & Renia
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
King & Queen, King & Queen, King & Queen
whodat at? whodat at? whodat at?
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
Douglas Richardson wrote:
On Dec 19, 12:48 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
Is that a French surname I see before me?
What do you mean, Renia?
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
King John Brandon's sock puppet John Briggs
holds court with Queen Renia
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
whodat, whodat, whodat
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
whodat? whodat? whodat?
JB & Renia, JB & Renia, JB & Renia
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
King & Queen, King & Queen, King & Queen
whodat at? whodat at? whodat at?
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
-
letiTiAflufF@gmail.com
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
On Dec 19, 4:40 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:48:50 -0000
References:
<lg1bm3h8n6uivl1n7a1ra75khgvh99d87j@4ax.com><fa8c8386-089e-45c0-aa6b-
f54642233519@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com><he1dm397m9uedq7214j7j4kl7ef61revb1@4ax.com>
Hilarious!
The sock puppets are fighting each other.
DSH
"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:he1dm397m9uedq7214j7j4kl7ef61revb1@4ax.com...
Hilarious!
The sock puppets are fighting each other.
DSH
Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
Douglas Richardson wrote:
On Dec 19, 12:48 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
Is that a French surname I see before me?
What do you mean, Renia?
John Briggs
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=11067101
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
Exactly - it is the Latin form of Mary. Maria
doesn't
become a name in
English until the seventeenth century.
Maria: "My name is Mary, sir." (Twelfth Night, Act
1,
Sc. 3)
But I am querying when "Henry" actually became an
English name. The answer
seems to be that "Harry" was the English
*pronunciation* of the the French
Henri. (I suppose "Hal" would count as a nick form.)
Both would presumably
be represented in Latin as Henricus.
--
John Briggs
Except that the name is a French one, and we have a
formal written document,
so we're not much further forward.
--
John Briggs
Renia
Oh, come on. Maria is the Latin form of Mary. Parish
registers are
abundant with Latinised Marys.
keep on praying, then you might find out.
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject:
Re:
When nepos/nepoti/nepotis means kinsman
John Briggs wrote:
Quote:
edespalais@yahoo.fr wrote:
On 14 déc, 19:08, "John Briggs"
john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
As I've stated in previous posts over the years on
soc.genealogy.medieval, Colin is the medieval
nickname
in England of
Nicholas, just as Colette was the female nickname
for
Nichole.
Strictly speaking, Colin is a pet form, rather than
a
nickname.
(Although it is arguable that Col could be a nick
form.) Good luck
finding either Colette or Nic(h)ole in medieval
England - although
Colet is recorded.
The other two nicknames I've noted in medieval
English
records are
Robin for Robert, and Harry for Henry.
Robin is again a pet form, although Harry is indeed
a
nickname -
there is some doubt as to whether Henry actually
existed in English.
The latter nickname is
especially common in records from the early Modern
era.
What does your answer has to do with nepos (nepotis)
meaning kinsman
in Latin, in use in England? Have you an anser? Yes
or
not. Not, then
go home!
Your reply is not correctly threaded.
Nor was yours, actually.
Still, you have a point about Robin, but it's still
irrelevant to nepos.
You're one of those many peeps who likes to sound
more
smart than he is.
Renia wrote:
Quote:
Piggybacking.
England.
--
John Briggs
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com
Subject: Re: "Once Removed" In French
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:48:50 -0000
References:
<lg1bm3h8n6uivl1n7a1ra75khgvh99d87j@4ax.com><fa8c8386-089e-45c0-aa6b-
f54642233519@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com><he1dm397m9uedq7214j7j4kl7ef61revb1@4ax.com>
Hilarious!
The sock puppets are fighting each other.
DSH
"Leticia Cluff" <leticia.cluff@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:he1dm397m9uedq7214j7j4kl7ef61revb1@4ax.com...
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 04:30:34 -0800 (PST), "letiTiAflufF@gmail.com"
letiTiAflufF@gmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 16, 3:17 pm, Leticia Cluff <leticia.cl...@nospam.gmail.com
wrote:
Can any of our French speakers explain why the term for "once removed"
in that language is " la mode de Bretagne"? Which Bretagne is this?
How did this term arise?
Tish
Bret, son of Charle de Magne
Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
Why is this person posting from Hollywood, Florida, and forging my
address to allude to Todd A. Farmerie?
What has Todd done to upset this "Aaron Parmenter"? And what's it got
to do with me?
Tish
Hilarious!
The sock puppets are fighting each other.
DSH
Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
-
AdrianBnjmBurke
Re: Example of Colette in English medieval record/Neptis as
On Dec 19, 3:22 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Ahhh. thanks!
On Dec 19, 1:17 pm, AdrianBnjmBurke <adrianbenjaminbu...@gmail.com
wrote:
Question: Hugh de Albiniaco. Is Albiniaco, Albany?
"de Albiniaco" is the Latin form of d'Aubeney.
DR
Ahhh. thanks!