Fw: Genealogics : the ascent of Alice Strelley

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Leo van de Pas

Fw: Genealogics : the ascent of Alice Strelley

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 17 des 2007 22:47:27

For what it is worth, numbers 18-19 are on my website, and wow, they have
interesting descendants.

They are ancestors of Royal Gateways (even if they themselves do not seem to
have royal ancestors) of
St.Leger Codd, Col. Warham Horsmanden, Diana Skipwith, Sir Grey Skipwith,
Katherine St.Leger, and probably other Gateway ancestors.

Then there is Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington, CABAL member, and
father-in-law of a bastard of Charles II and via that line an ancestor of
Lady Diana Spencer.

Author Upton Sinclair, historian Lady Antonia Fraser, Dame Edith Sitwell and
her siblings, actress Rachel Ward, and quite a variety of British Dukes and
Earls.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
.

----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 7:54 AM
Subject: Genealogics : the ascent of Alice Strelley


Researching the ancestry of that Lord Byron the famous author, I found
that Leo has a gap in his ascent re: his ancestor Alice Strelley.

On Leo's great website here
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php ... 7&tree=LEO

we see the pedigree of Lord Byron's ancestor Richard Byron, 2nd Lord
Byron who d 4 Oct 1679

Although my details, copied from stirnet vary.
(cf http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/briti ... 1.htm#dau3)

we are in agreement that in the ancestry (at some point) is an Alice
Strelley who married John Byron.

Without addressing that discrepancy, we can give a further ascent to
Alice.

There is a Strelley pedigree published in Misc. Gen. Et Her. which (in
conjunction with other sources) give Alice the following additions

1 Alice Strelley
2 Sir Nicholas Strelley
3 third wife Elizabeth Spencer
4 Sir Nicholas Strelley
5 Catherine West
6 John Spencer
7 Unknown
8 Robert Strelley of Strelley
9 Isabel Kempe
16 Robert Strelley of Strelley ob 17H6
17 Jane Stanhope
18 Sir Thomas Kempe of Olantigh, Wye, Kent d 1428
19 Beatrice Lewknor
32 Sir Nicholas Strelley
33 Elizabeth Pierrepont
34 Richard Stanhope
36 Peter Kempe of Brabourne and Wye
38 Sir Thomas (or Robert) Lewknor
64 Sir Samson Strelley ob 13R2
65 Elizabeth Hercy
66 Sir Edmond Pierrepont
128 Robert Strelley ob 27E3
130 Sir John Hercy
256 Sir Robert Strelley "aged 30" 12 E1; ob 30E1
257 Elizabeth Vavasour

Additions, Corrections and Comments appreciated
With or without URL's, Sources and misc. bitchiness.

Will Johnson

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wjhonson

Re: Fw: Genealogics : the ascent of Alice Strelley

Legg inn av wjhonson » 17 des 2007 23:16:02

I see that several sources appear to be in somewhere agreement that
John Byron, 1st Baron Byron was "born about 1599", I suppose this sits
on something like a date and age at which he matriculated, but I'm not
sure.

At any rate, his mother is given at
http://www.thepeerage.com/p19721.htm#i197202
as Anne Molyneux but flipping to her own entry, I see that she is not
accorded as a daughter of Frances Gerard.

This matches to my own misgivings about this connection, so for the
time being I'm going to disconnect Frances as her mother, and add an
additional unknown and earlier spouse to Richard Molyneux, Bart of
Sefton (d 8 Feb 1622/3 at Sefton).

The chronology does not work to allow the statements that Richard
married Frances Gerard "circa 1590" and that his *grandson* John Byron
was born "about 1599".

Will Johnson

Gjest

Re: Fw: Genealogics : the ascent of Alice Strelley

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2007 00:41:03

On Dec 17, 2:11 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
I see that several sources appear to be in somewhere agreement that
John Byron, 1st Baron Byron was "born about 1599", I suppose this sits
on something like a date and age at which he matriculated, but I'm not
sure.

At any rate, his mother is given athttp://www.thepeerage.com/p19721.htm#i197202
as Anne Molyneux but flipping to her own entry, I see that she is not
accorded as a daughter of Frances Gerard.

This matches to my own misgivings about this connection, so for the
time being I'm going to disconnect Frances as her mother, and add an
additional unknown and earlier spouse to Richard Molyneux, Bart of
Sefton (d 8 Feb 1622/3 at Sefton).

The chronology does not work to allow the statements that Richard
married Frances Gerard "circa 1590" and that his *grandson* John Byron
was born "about 1599".

Will Johnson

The statement that the 1st Baron Byron was b. ca. 1599 is likely based
on CP 2:454 which says (without attribution) that he was "aged 15 in
1614".

As to the marriage of his grandparents, a more reasonable adjustment
would be to assume that the marriage date of "ca. 1590" is wrong.
According to CB 1:4, Richard Molyneux was born ca. 1560, based on his
being 8 years old when he succeeded his grandfather in 1568. Moving
the 1590 marriage date back 8 (or even 10) years would not be
reasonable (perhaps 1580 was mis-read as 1590?) and would make the ca.
1599 birth of a grandson more acceptable - certainly a less drastic
move than blithely introducing a previously unknown spouse in a family
that is pretty well documented. A simpler solution to a chronological
problem is usually better.

BTW: I believe that some baronets have in the past taken umbrage at
their title being abbreviated as "Bart." rather than "Bt.". See the
interesting and lengthy footnote on this point in CB 2:250. :-)

wjhonson

Re: Fw: Genealogics : the ascent of Alice Strelley

Legg inn av wjhonson » 18 des 2007 02:46:01

On Dec 17, 1:47 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Then there is Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington, CABAL member, and
father-in-law of a bastard of Charles II and via that line an ancestor of
Lady Diana Spencer.

----------

Aside from being 1st Earl of Arlington, Henry Bennet was also Viscount
Thetford, which I *think* must be a higher title.

Although he has a royal ascent in 14 steps to Edward I of England, his
wife Elizabeth von Nassau is perhaps more interesting, having a royal
ascent in *seven* steps to Casimir, King of Poland (from 1447).

Will Johnson

Leo van de Pas

Re: Fw: Genealogics : the ascent of Alice Strelley

Legg inn av Leo van de Pas » 18 des 2007 04:24:14

Dear Will,

Something is wrong as you say, but what? John Byron born in 1599 cannot be a
grandchild of a couple married in "about 1590".

The Complete Baronetage and Burke's Peerage both give only one wife
(Frances Gerard) to Sir Richard Molyneux, 1st Baronet. I agree with John
Higgins that what is wrong (what has to be wrong) is the about 1590.

The year of birth of Richard Molyneux, the son who became Viscount Molyneux
(1594) is no help.

The Gerard family is not much help either. The father of Frances died in
1592/3. And her brother Thomas Gerard, who became a baron, in 1584 became
M.P. for Lancaster. How old or young would he have been? Lets guess 24, then
he was born in 1560, the same year as John Higgins gives to Richard
Molyneux, the brother-in-law. This would place Frances also in that period.
As both the year of birth of John Byron is a guess and the marriage year
also, I agree with John Higgins. We should remove that about 1590 altogether
and keep the people in place.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia


----- Original Message -----
From: <jhigginsgen@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Genealogics : the ascent of Alice Strelley


On Dec 17, 2:11 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
I see that several sources appear to be in somewhere agreement that
John Byron, 1st Baron Byron was "born about 1599", I suppose this sits
on something like a date and age at which he matriculated, but I'm not
sure.

At any rate, his mother is given
athttp://www.thepeerage.com/p19721.htm#i197202
as Anne Molyneux but flipping to her own entry, I see that she is not
accorded as a daughter of Frances Gerard.

This matches to my own misgivings about this connection, so for the
time being I'm going to disconnect Frances as her mother, and add an
additional unknown and earlier spouse to Richard Molyneux, Bart of
Sefton (d 8 Feb 1622/3 at Sefton).

The chronology does not work to allow the statements that Richard
married Frances Gerard "circa 1590" and that his *grandson* John Byron
was born "about 1599".

Will Johnson

The statement that the 1st Baron Byron was b. ca. 1599 is likely based
on CP 2:454 which says (without attribution) that he was "aged 15 in
1614".

As to the marriage of his grandparents, a more reasonable adjustment
would be to assume that the marriage date of "ca. 1590" is wrong.
According to CB 1:4, Richard Molyneux was born ca. 1560, based on his
being 8 years old when he succeeded his grandfather in 1568. Moving
the 1590 marriage date back 8 (or even 10) years would not be
reasonable (perhaps 1580 was mis-read as 1590?) and would make the ca.
1599 birth of a grandson more acceptable - certainly a less drastic
move than blithely introducing a previously unknown spouse in a family
that is pretty well documented. A simpler solution to a chronological
problem is usually better.

BTW: I believe that some baronets have in the past taken umbrage at
their title being abbreviated as "Bart." rather than "Bt.". See the
interesting and lengthy footnote on this point in CB 2:250. :-)

-------------------------------
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Gjest

Re: Fw: Genealogics : the ascent of Alice Strelley

Legg inn av Gjest » 18 des 2007 06:50:03

On Dec 17, 5:43 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
On Dec 17, 1:47 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:

Then there is Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington, CABAL member, and
father-in-law of a bastard of Charles II and via that line an ancestor of
Lady Diana Spencer.

----------
Aside from being 1st Earl of Arlington, Henry Bennet was also Viscount
Thetford, which I *think* must be a higher title.

Although he has a royal ascent in 14 steps to Edward I of England, his
wife Elizabeth von Nassau is perhaps more interesting, having a royal
ascent in *seven* steps to Casimir, King of Poland (from 1447).

Will Johnson

Viscount is a higher title than earl?? Come on, Will - you should
know better than that....you must be having a bad day....two gaffes
within several hours!!

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