Dear Leo, et al.,
I noted an apparent 'relocation of issue' in
Genealogics, having to do with Ida of Lorraine [1], one
of the wives of Eustace II of Boulogne and mother of
Godfrey of Bouillon, &c. Ida is show as the daughter
of Geoffrey (i.e. Godfrey) 'the Bearded', Duke of Upper
Lorraine, by his 2nd wife Beatrix. This cannot be, as
Godfrey and Beatrix were married in 1054, while
Godfrey's daughter Ida was already having sons
ca. 1058-1060.
Norwich (The Normans in Sicily, p. 202) identifies the
mother of Godfrey as 'Agnes of Hapsburg'. I show her as
Uda, without parentage, based on ES I Band I.2, Tafel 202
(Lorraine). If there is any information to hand that adds
to or contradicts the portrayal in Europaische Stammtafeln
(ES), I'd be very interested.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Ida is in Genealogics under #I00305425
the parentage of Ida of Lorraine (mother of Godfrey of Bouil
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Gjest
Re: the parentage of Ida of Lorraine (mother of Godfrey of B
On Dec 6, 2:08 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
I think this was discussed here a few years ago. Have you checked the
archive. Another source would be the Prosopography Group publication
on the first crusade, which I recall granting a little bit of ink to
the topic. I think ES is right here, and that her parentage is
unknown.
taf
Dear Leo, et al.,
I noted an apparent 'relocation of issue' in
Genealogics, having to do with Ida of Lorraine [1], one
of the wives of Eustace II of Boulogne and mother of
Godfrey of Bouillon, &c. Ida is show as the daughter
of Geoffrey (i.e. Godfrey) 'the Bearded', Duke of Upper
Lorraine, by his 2nd wife Beatrix. This cannot be, as
Godfrey and Beatrix were married in 1054, while
Godfrey's daughter Ida was already having sons
ca. 1058-1060.
Norwich (The Normans in Sicily, p. 202) identifies the
mother of Godfrey as 'Agnes of Hapsburg'. I show her as
Uda, without parentage, based on ES I Band I.2, Tafel 202
(Lorraine). If there is any information to hand that adds
to or contradicts the portrayal in Europaische Stammtafeln
(ES), I'd be very interested.
I think this was discussed here a few years ago. Have you checked the
archive. Another source would be the Prosopography Group publication
on the first crusade, which I recall granting a little bit of ink to
the topic. I think ES is right here, and that her parentage is
unknown.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: the parentage of Ida of Lorraine (mother of Godfrey of B
<taf@clearwire.net> wrote in message
news:65c5df77-c8f6-4241-8810-39a1a4fd5dbd@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
That's my understanding too. Ida's mother was called Uoda b y her husband,
and is named as Doda in 'Vita beatae Idae' written by a contemporary (Acta
Sanctorum, April II, 139ff).
Various conjectures have been put forward, usually trying to force a link to
some other lady named Uda, Doda, Dada, etc - the "Dada" school of genealogy,
in my view, with pedigrees fit to be illustrated by Magritte. The favoured
ones are usually in the comital families of Toul, Rethel or Grandpré.
Peter Stewart
news:65c5df77-c8f6-4241-8810-39a1a4fd5dbd@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 6, 2:08 pm, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
Dear Leo, et al.,
I noted an apparent 'relocation of issue' in
Genealogics, having to do with Ida of Lorraine [1], one
of the wives of Eustace II of Boulogne and mother of
Godfrey of Bouillon, &c. Ida is show as the daughter
of Geoffrey (i.e. Godfrey) 'the Bearded', Duke of Upper
Lorraine, by his 2nd wife Beatrix. This cannot be, as
Godfrey and Beatrix were married in 1054, while
Godfrey's daughter Ida was already having sons
ca. 1058-1060.
Norwich (The Normans in Sicily, p. 202) identifies the
mother of Godfrey as 'Agnes of Hapsburg'. I show her as
Uda, without parentage, based on ES I Band I.2, Tafel 202
(Lorraine). If there is any information to hand that adds
to or contradicts the portrayal in Europaische Stammtafeln
(ES), I'd be very interested.
I think this was discussed here a few years ago. Have you checked the
archive. Another source would be the Prosopography Group publication
on the first crusade, which I recall granting a little bit of ink to
the topic. I think ES is right here, and that her parentage is
unknown.
That's my understanding too. Ida's mother was called Uoda b y her husband,
and is named as Doda in 'Vita beatae Idae' written by a contemporary (Acta
Sanctorum, April II, 139ff).
Various conjectures have been put forward, usually trying to force a link to
some other lady named Uda, Doda, Dada, etc - the "Dada" school of genealogy,
in my view, with pedigrees fit to be illustrated by Magritte. The favoured
ones are usually in the comital families of Toul, Rethel or Grandpré.
Peter Stewart
-
Gjest
Re: the parentage of Ida of Lorraine (mother of Godfrey of B
On Dec 6, 6:35 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
The Rethel solution, of course, is an attempt to explain how it was
that Baldwin of le Bourg (de Rethel) was kinsman of Baldwin I and his
de facto heir to Jerusalem. The problem is that the Rethel pedigree is
a little iffy as well when it comes to wives, so just assuming the
connection was with the Rethel male line is not all that wise.
taf
Various conjectures have been put forward, usually trying to force a link to
some other lady named Uda, Doda, Dada, etc - the "Dada" school of genealogy,
in my view, with pedigrees fit to be illustrated by Magritte. The favoured
ones are usually in the comital families of Toul, Rethel or Grandpré.
The Rethel solution, of course, is an attempt to explain how it was
that Baldwin of le Bourg (de Rethel) was kinsman of Baldwin I and his
de facto heir to Jerusalem. The problem is that the Rethel pedigree is
a little iffy as well when it comes to wives, so just assuming the
connection was with the Rethel male line is not all that wise.
taf
-
Doug McDonald
Re: the parentage of Ida of Lorraine (mother of Godfrey of B
Peter Stewart wrote:
I checked the archive and it is unclear.
The above is unclear too. Parse " Ida's mother was called Uoda b y her husband"
and then ask "does 'her husband' refer to husband of Ida or Uoda?
So we know that Ida's mother had a name resembling "Uoda" but is
otherwise problematical as to parentage. But this parsing question, and my reading of the archives,
make it unclear whether we actually know who her (i.e. the Ida who married Eustace II)
father was. It seems that Geoffrey (Godfrey) "the bearded" could still be correct,
or one could read the posts as making him "unknown".
Replies needed!
Doug McDonald
taf@clearwire.net> wrote in message
I think this was discussed here a few years ago. Have you checked the
archive. Another source would be the Prosopography Group publication
on the first crusade, which I recall granting a little bit of ink to
the topic. I think ES is right here, and that her parentage is
unknown.
That's my understanding too. Ida's mother was called Uoda b y her husband,
and is named as Doda in 'Vita beatae Idae' written by a contemporary (Acta
Sanctorum, April II, 139ff).
Various conjectures have been put forward, usually trying to force a link to
some other lady named Uda, Doda, Dada, etc - the "Dada" school of genealogy,
in my view, with pedigrees fit to be illustrated by Magritte. The favoured
ones are usually in the comital families of Toul, Rethel or Grandpré.
I checked the archive and it is unclear.
The above is unclear too. Parse " Ida's mother was called Uoda b y her husband"
and then ask "does 'her husband' refer to husband of Ida or Uoda?
So we know that Ida's mother had a name resembling "Uoda" but is
otherwise problematical as to parentage. But this parsing question, and my reading of the archives,
make it unclear whether we actually know who her (i.e. the Ida who married Eustace II)
father was. It seems that Geoffrey (Godfrey) "the bearded" could still be correct,
or one could read the posts as making him "unknown".
Replies needed!
Doug McDonald
-
Gjest
Re: the parentage of Ida of Lorraine (mother of Godfrey of B
On Dec 7, 6:39 am, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
Looking back, I misread the original question and answered what I
thought it was asking and not what it actually asked.
Ida's place is beyond question. She was daughter of Godfrey (not
Geoffrey) the Bearded, by Uoda (Uda/Doda). The origins of Uota are
undocumented, but there has been various speculation.
taf
Peter Stewart wrote:
t...@clearwire.net> wrote in message
I think this was discussed here a few years ago. Have you checked the
archive. Another source would be the Prosopography Group publication
on the first crusade, which I recall granting a little bit of ink to
the topic. I think ES is right here, and that her parentage is
unknown.
That's my understanding too. Ida's mother was called Uoda b y her husband,
and is named as Doda in 'Vita beatae Idae' written by a contemporary (Acta
Sanctorum, April II, 139ff).
Various conjectures have been put forward, usually trying to force a link to
some other lady named Uda, Doda, Dada, etc - the "Dada" school of genealogy,
in my view, with pedigrees fit to be illustrated by Magritte. The favoured
ones are usually in the comital families of Toul, Rethel or Grandpré.
I checked the archive and it is unclear.
The above is unclear too. Parse " Ida's mother was called Uoda b y her husband"
and then ask "does 'her husband' refer to husband of Ida or Uoda?
So we know that Ida's mother had a name resembling "Uoda" but is
otherwise problematical as to parentage. But this parsing question, and my reading of the archives,
make it unclear whether we actually know who her (i.e. the Ida who married Eustace II)
father was. It seems that Geoffrey (Godfrey) "the bearded" could still be correct,
or one could read the posts as making him "unknown".
Looking back, I misread the original question and answered what I
thought it was asking and not what it actually asked.
Ida's place is beyond question. She was daughter of Godfrey (not
Geoffrey) the Bearded, by Uoda (Uda/Doda). The origins of Uota are
undocumented, but there has been various speculation.
taf
-
Peter Stewart
Re: the parentage of Ida of Lorraine (mother of Godfrey of B
"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:fjbma2$gsj$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
I meant that Ida's mother was called Uoda by Ida's father, but in fact she
was also called this by Ida herself in a charter dated 1096 for
Munsterbilsen in which she also named her paternal grandfather (both of whom
were buried there), in case proof is required from the mare's own mouth -
"pie anime matris mee Vode et aui mei marchionis Godezonis" (Vode is written
with "o" superscribed above "V", and with cedilla under "e", for ae).
There is no doubt, as Todd posted, that Ida's father was Godefrey the
Bearded, duke of Lorraine, son of Gozelo. He is named in charters as well as
in Vita beatae Idae cited before - a very rare biography, for the time, of a
married woman.
If you want more information about her, I suggest a good starting point is
Nicolas Huyghebaert's article 'La mère de Godefroid de Bouillon: la comtesse
Ide de Boulogne' in _Publications de la Section historique de l'Institut
grand-ducal de Luxembourg_ 95 (1981) 43-63. If you need a work that is
easier to obtain in the USA, her family background is also covered in John
Andressohn's _The Ancestry and Life of Godfrey of Bouillon_, Indiana
University Publications, Social Science Series 5 (Bloomington, 1947).
Peter Stewart
news:fjbma2$gsj$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
Peter Stewart wrote:
taf@clearwire.net> wrote in message
I think this was discussed here a few years ago. Have you checked the
archive. Another source would be the Prosopography Group publication
on the first crusade, which I recall granting a little bit of ink to
the topic. I think ES is right here, and that her parentage is
unknown.
That's my understanding too. Ida's mother was called Uoda b y her
husband, and is named as Doda in 'Vita beatae Idae' written by a
contemporary (Acta Sanctorum, April II, 139ff).
Various conjectures have been put forward, usually trying to force a link
to some other lady named Uda, Doda, Dada, etc - the "Dada" school of
genealogy, in my view, with pedigrees fit to be illustrated by Magritte.
The favoured ones are usually in the comital families of Toul, Rethel or
Grandpré.
I checked the archive and it is unclear.
The above is unclear too. Parse " Ida's mother was called Uoda b y her
husband"
and then ask "does 'her husband' refer to husband of Ida or Uoda?
I meant that Ida's mother was called Uoda by Ida's father, but in fact she
was also called this by Ida herself in a charter dated 1096 for
Munsterbilsen in which she also named her paternal grandfather (both of whom
were buried there), in case proof is required from the mare's own mouth -
"pie anime matris mee Vode et aui mei marchionis Godezonis" (Vode is written
with "o" superscribed above "V", and with cedilla under "e", for ae).
So we know that Ida's mother had a name resembling "Uoda" but is
otherwise problematical as to parentage. But this parsing question, and my
reading of the archives, make it unclear whether we actually know who her
(i.e. the Ida who married Eustace II) father was. It seems that Geoffrey
(Godfrey) "the bearded" could still be correct, or one could read the
posts as
making him "unknown".
There is no doubt, as Todd posted, that Ida's father was Godefrey the
Bearded, duke of Lorraine, son of Gozelo. He is named in charters as well as
in Vita beatae Idae cited before - a very rare biography, for the time, of a
married woman.
If you want more information about her, I suggest a good starting point is
Nicolas Huyghebaert's article 'La mère de Godefroid de Bouillon: la comtesse
Ide de Boulogne' in _Publications de la Section historique de l'Institut
grand-ducal de Luxembourg_ 95 (1981) 43-63. If you need a work that is
easier to obtain in the USA, her family background is also covered in John
Andressohn's _The Ancestry and Life of Godfrey of Bouillon_, Indiana
University Publications, Social Science Series 5 (Bloomington, 1947).
Peter Stewart