Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de Her
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de Her
Dear Newsgroup ~
In recent time, I came across a reference to a seal of Ida de Clinton
dated 1298-1300 in an old article in Transactions of the Historical
Society of Lancashire and Cheshire. According to this source, this
lady's seal bears three shields, each of which I presume has armorial
bearings. Unfortunately, the actual description of the seal is not
provided in the article, but the source for the information was given,
namely Nicholas Upton, pg. 82.
I quote the exact text:
"Now, also, two, three, or more shields appear, conjointed or standing
side by side. The earliest instance I have noticed in Sigillum Ide de
Clinton, 1298-1300, with three heater shields, points to the centre
[Nicholas Upton, pg. 82] [Reference: Trans. Hist. Soc. of Lancashire &
Cheshire n.s 5 (1889): 24].
The person in question is surely Ide de Oddingseles, died 1325, wife
successively of Roger de Herdeburgh, Knt., and John de Clinton, 1st
Lord Clinton. For particulars of Ida de Oddingseles' life, see
Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).
As for Nicholas Upton, his work appears to be an early treatise on
heraldry entitled De Usu Militari, Bisse edition, 1654. As far as I
can tell, this book is not available on Google Books, nor is this work
available at the Family History Library here in Salt Lake City.
If anyone has access to the book by Upton, I'd appreciate it very much
if they would check it for the specific description of the shields on
Ida de Clinton's seal. I assume one shield would be for Clinton and
one for Oddingseles. The third shield might display the Fitz Walter
arms of Ida's mother (that is, Or a fess between two chevrons gules).
If so, the seal would provide new evidence for Ida's parentage.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of 17th Century New World
immigrants that descend from Ida de Oddingseles:
From her 1st marriage to Roger de Herdeburgh, Knt. -
Robert Abell, Christopher Batt, Essex Beville, William Bladen, Thomas
Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent,
Thomas Bressey, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine,
Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, St. Leger Codd,
Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, Muriel
Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey,
Mary Launce, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Simon
Lynde, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Philip
& Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George
Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard
Saltonstall, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Olive
Welby, John West, Thomas Wingfield.
From her 2nd marriage to John de Clinton, Lord Clinton -
Dannett Abney, William Asfordby, William Bladen, Thomas Booth,
Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Charles Calvert, Grace Chetwode,
Jeremy Clarke, Henry Corbin, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton,
Katherine Hamby, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Thomas Owsley, Richard
Saltonstall, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel &
William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
In recent time, I came across a reference to a seal of Ida de Clinton
dated 1298-1300 in an old article in Transactions of the Historical
Society of Lancashire and Cheshire. According to this source, this
lady's seal bears three shields, each of which I presume has armorial
bearings. Unfortunately, the actual description of the seal is not
provided in the article, but the source for the information was given,
namely Nicholas Upton, pg. 82.
I quote the exact text:
"Now, also, two, three, or more shields appear, conjointed or standing
side by side. The earliest instance I have noticed in Sigillum Ide de
Clinton, 1298-1300, with three heater shields, points to the centre
[Nicholas Upton, pg. 82] [Reference: Trans. Hist. Soc. of Lancashire &
Cheshire n.s 5 (1889): 24].
The person in question is surely Ide de Oddingseles, died 1325, wife
successively of Roger de Herdeburgh, Knt., and John de Clinton, 1st
Lord Clinton. For particulars of Ida de Oddingseles' life, see
Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).
As for Nicholas Upton, his work appears to be an early treatise on
heraldry entitled De Usu Militari, Bisse edition, 1654. As far as I
can tell, this book is not available on Google Books, nor is this work
available at the Family History Library here in Salt Lake City.
If anyone has access to the book by Upton, I'd appreciate it very much
if they would check it for the specific description of the shields on
Ida de Clinton's seal. I assume one shield would be for Clinton and
one for Oddingseles. The third shield might display the Fitz Walter
arms of Ida's mother (that is, Or a fess between two chevrons gules).
If so, the seal would provide new evidence for Ida's parentage.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of 17th Century New World
immigrants that descend from Ida de Oddingseles:
From her 1st marriage to Roger de Herdeburgh, Knt. -
Robert Abell, Christopher Batt, Essex Beville, William Bladen, Thomas
Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent,
Thomas Bressey, Elizabeth Butler, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine,
Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, St. Leger Codd,
Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, Muriel
Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey,
Mary Launce, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Simon
Lynde, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Philip
& Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George
Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard
Saltonstall, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel & William Torrey, Olive
Welby, John West, Thomas Wingfield.
From her 2nd marriage to John de Clinton, Lord Clinton -
Dannett Abney, William Asfordby, William Bladen, Thomas Booth,
Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Charles Calvert, Grace Chetwode,
Jeremy Clarke, Henry Corbin, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton,
Katherine Hamby, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Thomas Owsley, Richard
Saltonstall, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, Samuel &
William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Ian Wallace
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
On 4 Dec, 17:54, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
It appears that Upton worked in the fifteenth century and his work was
printed long afterwards in the seventeenth century. I found a book of
1654 assembled by Edward Bissaeus on the "Early English Books"
website < http://eebo.chadwyck.com/home > that includes a work by
Nicholas Upton:-
Nicolai Vptoni De studio militari libri quatuor.
Iohan. de Bado Aureo Tractatus de armis.
Henrici Spelmanni Aspilogia
Edoardvs Bissaevs e codicibus mss. primus publici juris fecit notisque
illustravit., Londini : Typis Rogeri Norton : Impensis Johannis
Martin, & Jacobi Allestrye 1654.
Date: 1654
Bib name / number: Wing / U124
No. pages: [13], 259, [3], 45, [7], 142, [2], 105, [1] p. :
Copy from: Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery
Page 82 of this book does form part of Book 2 of Nicholas Upton's "De
Militari Officio" but I saw no mention of Ida de Oddingseles.
Ian.
Dear Newsgroup ~
As for Nicholas Upton, his work appears to be an early treatise on
heraldry entitled De Usu Militari, Bisse edition, 1654. As far as I
can tell, this book is not available on Google Books, nor is this work
available at the Family History Library here in Salt Lake City.
It appears that Upton worked in the fifteenth century and his work was
printed long afterwards in the seventeenth century. I found a book of
1654 assembled by Edward Bissaeus on the "Early English Books"
website < http://eebo.chadwyck.com/home > that includes a work by
Nicholas Upton:-
Nicolai Vptoni De studio militari libri quatuor.
Iohan. de Bado Aureo Tractatus de armis.
Henrici Spelmanni Aspilogia
Edoardvs Bissaevs e codicibus mss. primus publici juris fecit notisque
illustravit., Londini : Typis Rogeri Norton : Impensis Johannis
Martin, & Jacobi Allestrye 1654.
Date: 1654
Bib name / number: Wing / U124
No. pages: [13], 259, [3], 45, [7], 142, [2], 105, [1] p. :
Copy from: Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery
Page 82 of this book does form part of Book 2 of Nicholas Upton's "De
Militari Officio" but I saw no mention of Ida de Oddingseles.
Ian.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
Dear Ian ~
Yes, you appear to have correct title. I checked the British Library
catalogue today myself and found they have an edition of Nicholas
Upton entitled "De Studio Militari ... " dated 1654 and 1664. Also,
it was edited or produced by Bysshe, not Bisse.
One of these editions is available online through Harvard's internet
catalogue. If anyone has access to the Harvard online catalogue, I
imagine this work can be checked rather quickly. The internet link
they provide in their catalogue is:
http://nrs.harvard.edu/urn-3:hul.ebookb ... m11964945e
The reference in the Transactions article is definitely to Nicholas
Upton, page 82. The reference to Ida de Clinton's seal in the
Transactions article can be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uwkNAA ... Clinton%22
Perhaps the author of the Transactions article got his page reference
wrong, or perhaps there are two page 82's.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
On Dec 4, 4:08 pm, Ian Wallace <shr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, you appear to have correct title. I checked the British Library
catalogue today myself and found they have an edition of Nicholas
Upton entitled "De Studio Militari ... " dated 1654 and 1664. Also,
it was edited or produced by Bysshe, not Bisse.
One of these editions is available online through Harvard's internet
catalogue. If anyone has access to the Harvard online catalogue, I
imagine this work can be checked rather quickly. The internet link
they provide in their catalogue is:
http://nrs.harvard.edu/urn-3:hul.ebookb ... m11964945e
The reference in the Transactions article is definitely to Nicholas
Upton, page 82. The reference to Ida de Clinton's seal in the
Transactions article can be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uwkNAA ... Clinton%22
Perhaps the author of the Transactions article got his page reference
wrong, or perhaps there are two page 82's.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
On Dec 4, 4:08 pm, Ian Wallace <shr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 4 Dec, 17:54, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
As for Nicholas Upton, his work appears to be an early treatise on
heraldry entitled De Usu Militari, Bisse edition, 1654. As far as I
can tell, this book is not available on Google Books, nor is this work
available at the Family History Library here in Salt Lake City.
It appears that Upton worked in the fifteenth century and his work was
printed long afterwards in the seventeenth century. I found a book of
1654 assembled by Edward Bissaeus on the "Early English Books"
website <http://eebo.chadwyck.com/home > that includes a work by
Nicholas Upton:-
Nicolai Vptoni De studio militari libri quatuor.
Iohan. de Bado Aureo Tractatus de armis.
Henrici Spelmanni Aspilogia
Edoardvs Bissaevs e codicibus mss. primus publici juris fecit notisque
illustravit., Londini : Typis Rogeri Norton : Impensis Johannis
Martin, & Jacobi Allestrye 1654.
Date: 1654
Bib name / number: Wing / U124
No. pages: [13], 259, [3], 45, [7], 142, [2], 105, [1] p. :
Copy from: Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery
Page 82 of this book does form part of Book 2 of Nicholas Upton's "De
Militari Officio" but I saw no mention of Ida de Oddingseles.
Ian.
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
Dear Newsgroup ~
I had a private e-mail this evening from Hikaru who found and copied
the information regarding Ida de Clinton's seal in the book by
Nicholas Upton. I have copied Hikaru's e-mail below.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Hello,
I took about two hours today at the British Library to check things
for you regarding Ida de Clinton's seal. They had several first
edition copies, so I borrowed two first edition 1654 copies. The book
is written almost totally in Latin with a few lines here and there in
the French used by the College of Arms at the time, so it wasn't
exactly the French of Paris, but charming in its own way.
It is actually an anthology of four different works, each with its own
pagination, all having the science of heraldry as a common theme. The
first two works, of which one was by Upton, had been somehow or other
acquired by the editor. The third work was by Spellman and was in the
Cotton Library still in the possession of Sir Robert Bruce Cotton's
son when it was copied. The original of the notes of Nicholas Uton
were in the possession of a certain William la Neve.
Page 82 refers to the pagination of Upton's notes which, at best, have
only a tangental relationship to his work on the science of heraldry
which makes up the beginning of the book. They do appear to have been
put together in the mid-15th century.
The drawing of the seal of Ida de Clinton showed three coats of arms.
There was not guide as to color, only as to design, so the explanation
I am about to offer, though perhaps too simple to be hugely helpful,
is all there is.
The first coat of arms had a line goin straight across the shield
about a quarter of the way from the top, dividing the shield into two
parts. In the top part were two five-pointed stars which were all
black in color.
In the case of the second coat of arms, there was a bar going across
the center of the shield taking up about 20% of its space. There was
an indication that it was colored but the indication did not match the
code for colors that had been given. Above the bar were two five-
pointed stars with empty centers.
The third shield had a bar going straight across its center and two
other bars, each shaped an upside-down "v". The point of the top
inverted "v" touched the top line of the shield and the two sides of
the invert "v" touched the sides of the shield we
where they were resting on the straight bar crossing the center. As
for the bottom inverted "v", its point touched the bar running across
the center of the shield and its two legs found resting spots on the
lower sides of the shield. Both the center bar and the two inverted v-
shaped bars had an indication of color, but what color was not clear,
because the marking did not match the books designated color marking
code.
I'm sorry that I am not familiar with the technical terminology of
heraldry well enough to confidently use it in writing. I hope, the
above information proves to be clear.
The notes provided a Latin language explanation of sorts for the
several male Clinton coat of arms which were show together with the
three that formed a part of Ida de Clinton's seal. This might be of
interest, so I will quote the original Latin:
"Thomas de Clinton de Colshill in eodem Agro, Equestris ordinis vir,
qui sub Henrico tertio floruit, parmulam argenteam cum apice scutario
cyanco, gestabat. Ejus filius et heres Johannes, ejusdem ordinis vir,
Bina Lilia aurea adjecit. Hujus filius Johannes, itidem eques, Tres
vacerras acutas, cyaneas [*an abbreviated letter form is found here
which I have never seen before but which appears to represent a
separate word, possibly a relative pronoun of sorts], cum cantone ex
alutata hermionica, in clypeo argentea: at ejus filius Johannes
scutarium apicem, cum liliis resumpsit. Clintonij vero de Maxstoke,
predicti Thomae filio natu minori oriundi, Apicem scutariam, duabus
echinatis in calcarium molulis aureiis, perforatisque ex coccino,
gestabant. Ab his originem ducens, Guilielmus de Clinton,
Huntingtoniae Comes, resumpotienti Edvardo tertio, Sexnig as cruces in
spicum mucronatus, aliis terminatis cruciculis, adjecit. Ille vero
[*hapais -- a transliteration of the Greek letters which appear here,
the "h" representing the breath mark over the Greek letter alpha. Also
over the alpha was an accent aigue.] mortuus est.
I am not an expert on heraldry so, though I don't generally find the
medieval Latin I am used to troublesome (that appearing in the usual
charters and deeds), I did not wish to make foolish mistakes
attempting a translation. I am sure though there are other who could
do so, if the above is considered worth effort.
I hope this will be useful.
Hikaru
I had a private e-mail this evening from Hikaru who found and copied
the information regarding Ida de Clinton's seal in the book by
Nicholas Upton. I have copied Hikaru's e-mail below.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Hello,
I took about two hours today at the British Library to check things
for you regarding Ida de Clinton's seal. They had several first
edition copies, so I borrowed two first edition 1654 copies. The book
is written almost totally in Latin with a few lines here and there in
the French used by the College of Arms at the time, so it wasn't
exactly the French of Paris, but charming in its own way.
It is actually an anthology of four different works, each with its own
pagination, all having the science of heraldry as a common theme. The
first two works, of which one was by Upton, had been somehow or other
acquired by the editor. The third work was by Spellman and was in the
Cotton Library still in the possession of Sir Robert Bruce Cotton's
son when it was copied. The original of the notes of Nicholas Uton
were in the possession of a certain William la Neve.
Page 82 refers to the pagination of Upton's notes which, at best, have
only a tangental relationship to his work on the science of heraldry
which makes up the beginning of the book. They do appear to have been
put together in the mid-15th century.
The drawing of the seal of Ida de Clinton showed three coats of arms.
There was not guide as to color, only as to design, so the explanation
I am about to offer, though perhaps too simple to be hugely helpful,
is all there is.
The first coat of arms had a line goin straight across the shield
about a quarter of the way from the top, dividing the shield into two
parts. In the top part were two five-pointed stars which were all
black in color.
In the case of the second coat of arms, there was a bar going across
the center of the shield taking up about 20% of its space. There was
an indication that it was colored but the indication did not match the
code for colors that had been given. Above the bar were two five-
pointed stars with empty centers.
The third shield had a bar going straight across its center and two
other bars, each shaped an upside-down "v". The point of the top
inverted "v" touched the top line of the shield and the two sides of
the invert "v" touched the sides of the shield we
where they were resting on the straight bar crossing the center. As
for the bottom inverted "v", its point touched the bar running across
the center of the shield and its two legs found resting spots on the
lower sides of the shield. Both the center bar and the two inverted v-
shaped bars had an indication of color, but what color was not clear,
because the marking did not match the books designated color marking
code.
I'm sorry that I am not familiar with the technical terminology of
heraldry well enough to confidently use it in writing. I hope, the
above information proves to be clear.
The notes provided a Latin language explanation of sorts for the
several male Clinton coat of arms which were show together with the
three that formed a part of Ida de Clinton's seal. This might be of
interest, so I will quote the original Latin:
"Thomas de Clinton de Colshill in eodem Agro, Equestris ordinis vir,
qui sub Henrico tertio floruit, parmulam argenteam cum apice scutario
cyanco, gestabat. Ejus filius et heres Johannes, ejusdem ordinis vir,
Bina Lilia aurea adjecit. Hujus filius Johannes, itidem eques, Tres
vacerras acutas, cyaneas [*an abbreviated letter form is found here
which I have never seen before but which appears to represent a
separate word, possibly a relative pronoun of sorts], cum cantone ex
alutata hermionica, in clypeo argentea: at ejus filius Johannes
scutarium apicem, cum liliis resumpsit. Clintonij vero de Maxstoke,
predicti Thomae filio natu minori oriundi, Apicem scutariam, duabus
echinatis in calcarium molulis aureiis, perforatisque ex coccino,
gestabant. Ab his originem ducens, Guilielmus de Clinton,
Huntingtoniae Comes, resumpotienti Edvardo tertio, Sexnig as cruces in
spicum mucronatus, aliis terminatis cruciculis, adjecit. Ille vero
[*hapais -- a transliteration of the Greek letters which appear here,
the "h" representing the breath mark over the Greek letter alpha. Also
over the alpha was an accent aigue.] mortuus est.
I am not an expert on heraldry so, though I don't generally find the
medieval Latin I am used to troublesome (that appearing in the usual
charters and deeds), I did not wish to make foolish mistakes
attempting a translation. I am sure though there are other who could
do so, if the above is considered worth effort.
I hope this will be useful.
Hikaru
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
Dear Newsgroup ~
First, I want to extend a hearty thanks to Hikaru for taking the time
and trouble to locate the information on the seal of Ida de Clinton
(née de Oddingseles) in the Nicholas Upton book in the British
Library. Hats off to Hikaru!
Regarding the thrree sets of arms which Hikaru has described from
Nicholas Upton's notes for Ida de Clinton's seal, I believe they are
the following arms in this order, Clinton, Oddingseles, and Fitz
Walter. I've listed the specific arms below with their actual
tinctures, and have provided references for each set of arms. These
arms match Hikaru's descriptions.
Clinton arms: Argent, on a chief azure two mullets or [Reference:
Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-1307) 2 (1997): 110 (arms of John
de Clinton, husband of Ida de Oddingseles)].
Oddingseles arms: Argent a fesse gules with two molets gules in the
chief. [Reference: Lord Marshal's Roll - arms of William de
Oddingseles (father of Ida de Oddingseles): Argent in fess and in
chief two mullets gules].
Fitz Walter arms: Or a fess between two chevrons gules [Reference:
Glover's Roll dated c.1252--arms of Walter Fitz Robert (grandfather of
Ida de Clinton): Or a fess between two chevrons gules].
So at long last we have contemporary confirmation that Ida de
Clinton's mother, Ela, wife of William de Oddingseles, was a Fitz
Walter. That's great! The evidence of Ida de Clinton's seal is a new
addition to the information on Ida and her family found in the
authoritative Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 312-313 (sub Clintton).
Thanks once again go to Hikaru for checking the Upton book for us.
Special thanks also go to Ian Wallace and Martin Hollick, who also
checked the Upton book.
Comments are invited. However, when replying, please cite your
sources and provide weblinks if available.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
First, I want to extend a hearty thanks to Hikaru for taking the time
and trouble to locate the information on the seal of Ida de Clinton
(née de Oddingseles) in the Nicholas Upton book in the British
Library. Hats off to Hikaru!
Regarding the thrree sets of arms which Hikaru has described from
Nicholas Upton's notes for Ida de Clinton's seal, I believe they are
the following arms in this order, Clinton, Oddingseles, and Fitz
Walter. I've listed the specific arms below with their actual
tinctures, and have provided references for each set of arms. These
arms match Hikaru's descriptions.
Clinton arms: Argent, on a chief azure two mullets or [Reference:
Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-1307) 2 (1997): 110 (arms of John
de Clinton, husband of Ida de Oddingseles)].
Oddingseles arms: Argent a fesse gules with two molets gules in the
chief. [Reference: Lord Marshal's Roll - arms of William de
Oddingseles (father of Ida de Oddingseles): Argent in fess and in
chief two mullets gules].
Fitz Walter arms: Or a fess between two chevrons gules [Reference:
Glover's Roll dated c.1252--arms of Walter Fitz Robert (grandfather of
Ida de Clinton): Or a fess between two chevrons gules].
So at long last we have contemporary confirmation that Ida de
Clinton's mother, Ela, wife of William de Oddingseles, was a Fitz
Walter. That's great! The evidence of Ida de Clinton's seal is a new
addition to the information on Ida and her family found in the
authoritative Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 312-313 (sub Clintton).
Thanks once again go to Hikaru for checking the Upton book for us.
Special thanks also go to Ian Wallace and Martin Hollick, who also
checked the Upton book.
Comments are invited. However, when replying, please cite your
sources and provide weblinks if available.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
Dear Newsgroup ~
For those who wish to view a depiction of the actual arms of Ida de
Oddingseles' maternal grandfather, Walter Fitz Robert, they may do so
at the following weblink:
http:// perso.numericable.fr/~briantimms/rolls/gloversB2.htm
Scroll down to B 186.
The original roll identifies these arms as being that of "Walter le
fitz Robert," who was certainly living at the time this roll of arms
was created. However, for some unknown reason, the modern editor Mr.
Timms has changed the name of the person whose arms these are to read
Robert Fitz Walter. Presumably this is just a minor slip by Mr.
Timms.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
For those who wish to view a depiction of the actual arms of Ida de
Oddingseles' maternal grandfather, Walter Fitz Robert, they may do so
at the following weblink:
http:// perso.numericable.fr/~briantimms/rolls/gloversB2.htm
Scroll down to B 186.
The original roll identifies these arms as being that of "Walter le
fitz Robert," who was certainly living at the time this roll of arms
was created. However, for some unknown reason, the modern editor Mr.
Timms has changed the name of the person whose arms these are to read
Robert Fitz Walter. Presumably this is just a minor slip by Mr.
Timms.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
John P. Ravilious
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
Dear Doug,
Thanks to you and Hikaru for this most interesting information.
I will be reading backward to see where the genealogical trail leads.
As to the heraldry, and Mr. Timm's webpage, we are extremely
indebted to him for all his hard work, and are fortunate these are
still available online. There are problems with this particular page
and the identifications given, however. As Brian wrote himself, "The
roll is a seemingly haphazard collection, dating from c1252." So too
the descriptions: some examples of problematic descriptions:
1. Edward I of England became King in 1272, so calling him
"Le Roy d'Angleterre" appears to be an error (should be
his father Henry III).
2. Saier de Quincy, Earl of Winchester died in Egypt, 3
November 1219. It would appear that his son Roger was
"Le Comte de Wyncestr' " whose arms are shown.
Given the appearance of the arms of John, Earl of Huntingdon (d.
before 6 June 1237) together with the foregoing, I think trying to
actually date this roll is not feasible. Of course we should perhaps
take Mr. Timms at his word, but I would remove "seemingly" from the
description given - a simple "haphazard" will do.
Cheers,
John
On Dec 7, 4:57 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Thanks to you and Hikaru for this most interesting information.
I will be reading backward to see where the genealogical trail leads.
As to the heraldry, and Mr. Timm's webpage, we are extremely
indebted to him for all his hard work, and are fortunate these are
still available online. There are problems with this particular page
and the identifications given, however. As Brian wrote himself, "The
roll is a seemingly haphazard collection, dating from c1252." So too
the descriptions: some examples of problematic descriptions:
1. Edward I of England became King in 1272, so calling him
"Le Roy d'Angleterre" appears to be an error (should be
his father Henry III).
2. Saier de Quincy, Earl of Winchester died in Egypt, 3
November 1219. It would appear that his son Roger was
"Le Comte de Wyncestr' " whose arms are shown.
Given the appearance of the arms of John, Earl of Huntingdon (d.
before 6 June 1237) together with the foregoing, I think trying to
actually date this roll is not feasible. Of course we should perhaps
take Mr. Timms at his word, but I would remove "seemingly" from the
description given - a simple "haphazard" will do.
Cheers,
John
On Dec 7, 4:57 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
For those who wish to view a depiction of the actual arms of Ida de
Oddingseles' maternal grandfather, Walter Fitz Robert, they may do so
at the following weblink:
http:// perso.numericable.fr/~briantimms/rolls/gloversB2.htm
Scroll down to B 186.
The original roll identifies these arms as being that of "Walter le
fitz Robert," who was certainly living at the time this roll of arms
was created. However, for some unknown reason, the modern editor Mr.
Timms has changed the name of the person whose arms these are to read
Robert Fitz Walter. Presumably this is just a minor slip by Mr.
Timms.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Howard
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
On Dec 7, 9:53 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Perhaps I might clarify here. Sir Edward Bysshe's 1654 volume
contains: 1 Nicholas Upton's "De Studio Militari"; 2 Johannis de Bado
Aureo "Tractatus de Armis cum Francisco de Foveis"; 3 Henrici
Spelmanni "Aspilogia"; and 4 "In Nicholaum Uptonum Notae" though said
by Bysshe in his introduction to have come from the library of Sir
William Le Neve (Clarenceux King of Arms 1635-1661), is attributed to
Bysshe himself by Thomas Moule "Bibliotheca Heraldica ...", 1822,
141-143, and Bysshe printed his own arms above the title of this book
just as he printed Spelmann's arms and portrait at the start of
"Aspilogia" and Selden's arms at the head of his dedicatory address to
the latter. The first part of the Notes (pp 4-17), being the text of
Bartolus of Sassoferrato's "Tractatus de Insigniis et Armiis",
certainly came from Le Neve's library as well as copies held by Samuel
Roper and Bysshe himself, as stated in Notes, 3 (see also Sir Anthony
Wagner "Heralds of England", 30 n3) so Le Neve may not have been the
source of all the data used in the Notes. Le Neve (d 1661) was
Clarenceux when Bysshe was Garter King of Arms and was also his
predecessor as Bysshe was demoted from Garter to Clarenceux at the
Restoration. I think we can probably conclude that the information for
the Notes came from Le Neve's collection but the writing was
presumably Bysshe's. However, Le Neve was the more capable antiquary
and maintanied a major collection of material from earlier heralds
(Bysshe on the otherhand was later criticised for his very poor
keeping of visitation records). Le Neve's collection then mainly
passed in 1663 to Sir Edward Walker, Garter who gave 24 great volmes
(WA to WZ) to the College of Arms who then acquired most of the
remainder in 1768 (A R Wagner "The Records and Collections of the
College of Arms", 11 & 33). The seal in question may just have
survived in the CoA or more likely the original drawing. Certainly
Bysshe's Notes were not put together in the 15th century when Upton
wrote his work.
The original copy of Upton's text used by Bysshe was then in the
possession of John Selden but was later to find its way to the College
of Arms in 1682 and is listed as Mss LXIV in the "Catalogue of the
Arundel Manuscripts in the Library of the College of Arms" 1829,
though not itself an Arundel gift.
Upton illustrates his work and at p 229 has a page entitled "De Armis
partitis ex transverso indentatis" in which he describes in Latin
"Portat de argento et caput scuti de azorio cum duabus maculis
perforatis de auro" and gives the more normal French blazon for the
unnamed arms "d'argent ung chief d'asor & deux moletts percees d'or".
The Bysshe Notes at p 81 comment on the line of latin blazon from
Upton opening with a couple of additional sentences on the Clintons
not given below but perhaps not important here (but if you need, I can
post). The Notes are illustrated by the plate on p 82 of 6 seals. Four
of these are given a date but not Ida de Clinton's.
This is presumably, because of the inscription, the Clinton shield:
Argent on a chief Azure two mollets Or. However, without the tinctures
I should point out that the Clinton arms apparently are more usually
with mullets of six points and that the most common bearers of a chief
on which are two mullets of five points are the family of St John
(Cecil Humphery-Smith, "Anglo-Norman Armory Two, 290-292). The only
Clinton bearing a plain shield (Argent), and a plain chief with two
mullets Or is given as John Clinton of Madestoke (Parliamentary roll c
1312 no 890 and again or another as John Clintone at no 839).
Madestoke being the Maxstoke mentioned in the quotation from Bysshe,
kindly given by Hikaru below.
A fess and in chief two mollets or mullets. Depending on tincture
these could refer to arms of Bracy, Oddingseles, Pouver or Hastings
(Humphery-Smith, 391). The marks in the plate do not indicate colour
but that the seal wax was raised. The seal of course would not have
any tincture. It is the genealogy that suggests Oddingseles as the
correct identification. However, the more usual arms given for
Oddingseles are Argent a fess and in chief two mullets of _six_ points
gules (Segar's roll c 1282 no 115; Charles' roll c 1285 no 51; St
George's roll c 1285 no 313; Collins' roll c 1295 no 65).
A fess between two chevrons. Again, without the tinctures these could
be the arms of a number of people: Baynard, Lisle/Lille, Charnel,
FitzWalter, or Peche in particular (Humphery-Smith, 405-6). However,
while Robert FitzWalter appears in the Lord Marshall's roll (c 1310 no
62) bearing Argent a fess between two chevrons gules, these arms are
most commonly assigned to Gilbert Peche (Dering roll c 1275 no 208;
Falkirk roll 1298 no 82; Fitzwilliam roll c 1530 no 150; First
Dunstable roll 1308 no 167; Glover's roll c 1275 no 60; Collins' roll
c 1295 no 55; Camdden roll c 1280 no 148; Guillim's roll c 1295-1305
no 65; Parliamentary roll c 1312 no 86; Herald's roll c 1270-80 no
146) and to other Peche members.
Please note I have deleted numerous cross-postings. A separate posting
to rec.heraldry would have been more appropriate.
Derek Howard
Dear Newsgroup ~
I had a private e-mail this evening from Hikaru who found and copied
the information regarding Ida de Clinton's seal in the book by
Nicholas Upton. I have copied Hikaru's e-mail below.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Hello,
I took about two hours today at the British Library to check things
for you regarding Ida de Clinton's seal. They had several first
edition copies, so I borrowed two first edition 1654 copies. The book
is written almost totally in Latin with a few lines here and there in
the French used by the College of Arms at the time, so it wasn't
exactly the French of Paris, but charming in its own way.
It is actually an anthology of four different works, each with its own
pagination, all having the science of heraldry as a common theme. The
first two works, of which one was by Upton, had been somehow or other
acquired by the editor. The third work was by Spellman and was in the
Cotton Library still in the possession of Sir Robert Bruce Cotton's
son when it was copied. The original of the notes of Nicholas Uton
were in the possession of a certain William la Neve.
Perhaps I might clarify here. Sir Edward Bysshe's 1654 volume
contains: 1 Nicholas Upton's "De Studio Militari"; 2 Johannis de Bado
Aureo "Tractatus de Armis cum Francisco de Foveis"; 3 Henrici
Spelmanni "Aspilogia"; and 4 "In Nicholaum Uptonum Notae" though said
by Bysshe in his introduction to have come from the library of Sir
William Le Neve (Clarenceux King of Arms 1635-1661), is attributed to
Bysshe himself by Thomas Moule "Bibliotheca Heraldica ...", 1822,
141-143, and Bysshe printed his own arms above the title of this book
just as he printed Spelmann's arms and portrait at the start of
"Aspilogia" and Selden's arms at the head of his dedicatory address to
the latter. The first part of the Notes (pp 4-17), being the text of
Bartolus of Sassoferrato's "Tractatus de Insigniis et Armiis",
certainly came from Le Neve's library as well as copies held by Samuel
Roper and Bysshe himself, as stated in Notes, 3 (see also Sir Anthony
Wagner "Heralds of England", 30 n3) so Le Neve may not have been the
source of all the data used in the Notes. Le Neve (d 1661) was
Clarenceux when Bysshe was Garter King of Arms and was also his
predecessor as Bysshe was demoted from Garter to Clarenceux at the
Restoration. I think we can probably conclude that the information for
the Notes came from Le Neve's collection but the writing was
presumably Bysshe's. However, Le Neve was the more capable antiquary
and maintanied a major collection of material from earlier heralds
(Bysshe on the otherhand was later criticised for his very poor
keeping of visitation records). Le Neve's collection then mainly
passed in 1663 to Sir Edward Walker, Garter who gave 24 great volmes
(WA to WZ) to the College of Arms who then acquired most of the
remainder in 1768 (A R Wagner "The Records and Collections of the
College of Arms", 11 & 33). The seal in question may just have
survived in the CoA or more likely the original drawing. Certainly
Bysshe's Notes were not put together in the 15th century when Upton
wrote his work.
Page 82 refers to the pagination of Upton's notes which, at best, have
only a tangental relationship to his work on the science of heraldry
which makes up the beginning of the book. They do appear to have been
put together in the mid-15th century.
The original copy of Upton's text used by Bysshe was then in the
possession of John Selden but was later to find its way to the College
of Arms in 1682 and is listed as Mss LXIV in the "Catalogue of the
Arundel Manuscripts in the Library of the College of Arms" 1829,
though not itself an Arundel gift.
Upton illustrates his work and at p 229 has a page entitled "De Armis
partitis ex transverso indentatis" in which he describes in Latin
"Portat de argento et caput scuti de azorio cum duabus maculis
perforatis de auro" and gives the more normal French blazon for the
unnamed arms "d'argent ung chief d'asor & deux moletts percees d'or".
The Bysshe Notes at p 81 comment on the line of latin blazon from
Upton opening with a couple of additional sentences on the Clintons
not given below but perhaps not important here (but if you need, I can
post). The Notes are illustrated by the plate on p 82 of 6 seals. Four
of these are given a date but not Ida de Clinton's.
The drawing of the seal of Ida de Clinton showed three coats of arms.
There was not guide as to color, only as to design, so the explanation
I am about to offer, though perhaps too simple to be hugely helpful,
is all there is.
The first coat of arms had a line goin straight across the shield
about a quarter of the way from the top, dividing the shield into two
parts. In the top part were two five-pointed stars which were all
black in color.
This is presumably, because of the inscription, the Clinton shield:
Argent on a chief Azure two mollets Or. However, without the tinctures
I should point out that the Clinton arms apparently are more usually
with mullets of six points and that the most common bearers of a chief
on which are two mullets of five points are the family of St John
(Cecil Humphery-Smith, "Anglo-Norman Armory Two, 290-292). The only
Clinton bearing a plain shield (Argent), and a plain chief with two
mullets Or is given as John Clinton of Madestoke (Parliamentary roll c
1312 no 890 and again or another as John Clintone at no 839).
Madestoke being the Maxstoke mentioned in the quotation from Bysshe,
kindly given by Hikaru below.
In the case of the second coat of arms, there was a bar going across
the center of the shield taking up about 20% of its space. There was
an indication that it was colored but the indication did not match the
code for colors that had been given. Above the bar were two five-
pointed stars with empty centers.
A fess and in chief two mollets or mullets. Depending on tincture
these could refer to arms of Bracy, Oddingseles, Pouver or Hastings
(Humphery-Smith, 391). The marks in the plate do not indicate colour
but that the seal wax was raised. The seal of course would not have
any tincture. It is the genealogy that suggests Oddingseles as the
correct identification. However, the more usual arms given for
Oddingseles are Argent a fess and in chief two mullets of _six_ points
gules (Segar's roll c 1282 no 115; Charles' roll c 1285 no 51; St
George's roll c 1285 no 313; Collins' roll c 1295 no 65).
The third shield had a bar going straight across its center and two
other bars, each shaped an upside-down "v". The point of the top
inverted "v" touched the top line of the shield and the two sides of
the invert "v" touched the sides of the shield we
where they were resting on the straight bar crossing the center. As
for the bottom inverted "v", its point touched the bar running across
the center of the shield and its two legs found resting spots on the
lower sides of the shield. Both the center bar and the two inverted v-
shaped bars had an indication of color, but what color was not clear,
because the marking did not match the books designated color marking
code.
A fess between two chevrons. Again, without the tinctures these could
be the arms of a number of people: Baynard, Lisle/Lille, Charnel,
FitzWalter, or Peche in particular (Humphery-Smith, 405-6). However,
while Robert FitzWalter appears in the Lord Marshall's roll (c 1310 no
62) bearing Argent a fess between two chevrons gules, these arms are
most commonly assigned to Gilbert Peche (Dering roll c 1275 no 208;
Falkirk roll 1298 no 82; Fitzwilliam roll c 1530 no 150; First
Dunstable roll 1308 no 167; Glover's roll c 1275 no 60; Collins' roll
c 1295 no 55; Camdden roll c 1280 no 148; Guillim's roll c 1295-1305
no 65; Parliamentary roll c 1312 no 86; Herald's roll c 1270-80 no
146) and to other Peche members.
I'm sorry that I am not familiar with the technical terminology of
heraldry well enough to confidently use it in writing. I hope, the
above information proves to be clear.
The notes provided a Latin language explanation of sorts for the
several male Clinton coat of arms which were show together with the
three that formed a part of Ida de Clinton's seal. This might be of
interest, so I will quote the original Latin:
"Thomas de Clinton de Colshill in eodem Agro, Equestris ordinis vir,
qui sub Henrico tertio floruit, parmulam argenteam cum apice scutario
cyanco, gestabat. Ejus filius et heres Johannes, ejusdem ordinis vir,
Bina Lilia aurea adjecit. Hujus filius Johannes, itidem eques, Tres
vacerras acutas, cyaneas [*an abbreviated letter form is found here
which I have never seen before but which appears to represent a
separate word, possibly a relative pronoun of sorts], cum cantone ex
alutata hermionica, in clypeo argentea: at ejus filius Johannes
scutarium apicem, cum liliis resumpsit. Clintonij vero de Maxstoke,
predicti Thomae filio natu minori oriundi, Apicem scutariam, duabus
echinatis in calcarium molulis aureiis, perforatisque ex coccino,
gestabant. Ab his originem ducens, Guilielmus de Clinton,
Huntingtoniae Comes, resumpotienti Edvardo tertio, Sexnig as cruces in
spicum mucronatus, aliis terminatis cruciculis, adjecit. Ille vero
[*hapais -- a transliteration of the Greek letters which appear here,
the "h" representing the breath mark over the Greek letter alpha. Also
over the alpha was an accent aigue.] mortuus est.
I am not an expert on heraldry so, though I don't generally find the
medieval Latin I am used to troublesome (that appearing in the usual
charters and deeds), I did not wish to make foolish mistakes
attempting a translation. I am sure though there are other who could
do so, if the above is considered worth effort.
I hope this will be useful.
Hikaru
Please note I have deleted numerous cross-postings. A separate posting
to rec.heraldry would have been more appropriate.
Derek Howard
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
Dear John, Hikaru, Ian, Martin, Derek ~
For some reason, the weblink I provided last night for the arms of
Walter Fitz Robert in the Glovers' Roll in Brian Timms' online
collection is not working. So let's try another weblink for Brian
Timms and see if that works.
Go to:
http://perso.numericable.fr/~briantimms/
Scroll down to Early Rolls of Arms and click on that.
Scroll down to Glover's Roll and click on that.
Scroll down to B 186.
I note that the arms of Walter Fitz Robert (B 186) in the Glover's
Roll are immediately followed by those of his brother-in-law, Stephen
Longespée, who is B 187. Stephen Longespée was, of course, a grandson
of King Henry II of England.
Until now, the only evidence we've had that Ela, wife of William de
Oddingseles, was a Fitz Walter is the Longespée family pedigree in
Lacock Priory records, an abstract of which is published in Dugdale,
Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 501. The Dugdale abstract may be
viewed at the following weblink:
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
While most people have felt that the Longespée family pedigree is
satisfactory evidence for Ela Fitz Walter's marriage, it's nice to
have the relationship confirmed by other contemporary evidence, in
this case the seal of Ela Fitz Walter's daughter, Ida de Oddingseles.
For the identification of Ida de Oddingseles' hitherto unknown first
marriage to Roger de Herdeburgh, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004).
Comments are invited, indeed welcome. However, when replying, please
state your sources and provide weblinks if you have them. Otherwise,
you'll probably just be ignored.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Dec 7, 5:30 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
< Dear Doug,
<
< Thanks to you and Hikaru for this most interesting information.
< I will be reading backward to see where the genealogical trail
leads.
<
< As to the heraldry, and Mr. Timm's webpage, we are extremely
< indebted to him for all his hard work, and are fortunate these are
< still available online.
<
< John
For some reason, the weblink I provided last night for the arms of
Walter Fitz Robert in the Glovers' Roll in Brian Timms' online
collection is not working. So let's try another weblink for Brian
Timms and see if that works.
Go to:
http://perso.numericable.fr/~briantimms/
Scroll down to Early Rolls of Arms and click on that.
Scroll down to Glover's Roll and click on that.
Scroll down to B 186.
I note that the arms of Walter Fitz Robert (B 186) in the Glover's
Roll are immediately followed by those of his brother-in-law, Stephen
Longespée, who is B 187. Stephen Longespée was, of course, a grandson
of King Henry II of England.
Until now, the only evidence we've had that Ela, wife of William de
Oddingseles, was a Fitz Walter is the Longespée family pedigree in
Lacock Priory records, an abstract of which is published in Dugdale,
Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 501. The Dugdale abstract may be
viewed at the following weblink:
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliogra ... il&id=2659
While most people have felt that the Longespée family pedigree is
satisfactory evidence for Ela Fitz Walter's marriage, it's nice to
have the relationship confirmed by other contemporary evidence, in
this case the seal of Ela Fitz Walter's daughter, Ida de Oddingseles.
For the identification of Ida de Oddingseles' hitherto unknown first
marriage to Roger de Herdeburgh, see Douglas Richardson, Plantagenet
Ancestry (2004).
Comments are invited, indeed welcome. However, when replying, please
state your sources and provide weblinks if you have them. Otherwise,
you'll probably just be ignored.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Dec 7, 5:30 am, "John P. Ravilious" <ther...@aol.com> wrote:
< Dear Doug,
<
< Thanks to you and Hikaru for this most interesting information.
< I will be reading backward to see where the genealogical trail
leads.
<
< As to the heraldry, and Mr. Timm's webpage, we are extremely
< indebted to him for all his hard work, and are fortunate these are
< still available online.
<
< John
-
Odysseus
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
In article
<c7e012ae-7fac-4ec8-a3ee-db852343520f@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Douglas Richardson <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:
<snip>
Black five-pointed stars would be blazoned "mullets sable". That doesn't
necessarily rule out the correspondence, though: metallic pigments can
tarnish to black, or can appear very dark in a photographic reproduction.
A horizontal stripe whose width is only one-fifth of the shield would
technically be considered a "bar", but OTOH in practice fesses are
rarely given their full 'nominal' one-third of the field, especially
when not themselves charged. "[W]ith empty centers" implies the language
"mullets pierced" (or "mullets voided of the field"). It might also
describe spur-rowels, but these are usually depicted with six points.
So while the matches between the respective descriptions and blazons
above may well be sufficiently close to justify the identifications,
they're not exact.
--
Odysseus
<c7e012ae-7fac-4ec8-a3ee-db852343520f@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Douglas Richardson <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote:
<snip>
Regarding the thrree sets of arms which Hikaru has described from
Nicholas Upton's notes for Ida de Clinton's seal, I believe they are
the following arms in this order, Clinton, Oddingseles, and Fitz
Walter. I've listed the specific arms below with their actual
tinctures, and have provided references for each set of arms. These
arms match Hikaru's descriptions.
[Hikaru:] The first coat of arms had a line goin straight across the
shield about a quarter of the way from the top, dividing the shield
into two parts. In the top part were two five-pointed stars which
were all black in color.
Clinton arms: Argent, on a chief azure two mullets or [Reference:
Brault, Rolls of Arms Edward I (1272-1307) 2 (1997): 110 (arms of John
de Clinton, husband of Ida de Oddingseles)].
Black five-pointed stars would be blazoned "mullets sable". That doesn't
necessarily rule out the correspondence, though: metallic pigments can
tarnish to black, or can appear very dark in a photographic reproduction.
[Hikaru:] In the case of the second coat of arms, there was a bar
going across the center of the shield taking up about 20% of its
space. There was an indication that it was colored but the
indication did not match the code for colors that had been given.
Above the bar were two five-pointed stars with empty centers.
Oddingseles arms: Argent a fesse gules with two molets gules in the
chief. [Reference: Lord Marshal's Roll - arms of William de
Oddingseles (father of Ida de Oddingseles): Argent in fess and in
chief two mullets gules].
A horizontal stripe whose width is only one-fifth of the shield would
technically be considered a "bar", but OTOH in practice fesses are
rarely given their full 'nominal' one-third of the field, especially
when not themselves charged. "[W]ith empty centers" implies the language
"mullets pierced" (or "mullets voided of the field"). It might also
describe spur-rowels, but these are usually depicted with six points.
So while the matches between the respective descriptions and blazons
above may well be sufficiently close to justify the identifications,
they're not exact.
--
Odysseus
-
Hickory
Re: Seal of Ida de Oddingseles (died 1325), wife of Roger de
Concerning the nature of the British Library's original edition
volumes which I referred to, nothing was done using actual color.
There was a code describing the use of certain lines drawn in certain
directions to indicate color, but this code was only used consistently
in the first part of the book, which was a four part anthology. The
representation of the seal (beautifully done, by the way) was in the
fourth part of the book which were Upton's notes. The black stars
could have represented any color. As for the size of the bars or
whatever, I am sure this was not meant to be taken with the same
exactness we would today. The 1654 illustration was meant to
beautifully reproduce a drawing found in a set of notes which seems to
have been written up in the 1450s. The notes, themselves, reproduce a
whole set of Clinton seals, in addition to that of Ida d'Oddingselles,
mostly from people having lived at various periods of the 14th
century. It is clear that Upton had to have had access to the Clinton
family muniment room in order to have made the selection he did for
his notes. The oldest of the seals reproduced in his notes was that of
Ida d'Oddingselles, but even that could have been made not very much
more than 150 years before Upton took his notes. All of the seals that
were drawn up in the notes were reproduced by the printer of the 1654
edition of the book equally as beautifully as the one for Ida
d'Oddingselles, though most certainly without the sense of preciseness
that would characterize modern heraldry, if only for the reason that
they were being taken from a set of notes and not from a manuscript
that had actually ever been intended for publication. As for color, I
am sure the original handwritten notes of Upton would not have
specified color, if only because the surviving impressions in wax left
by the 14th century seals and attached to the documents Upton would
have seen would, themselves, have offered Upton himself no indication
of color. This is something which scholars today, on the basis of
other descriptions found in medieval ordinaries (of which there are
some truly gorgeous hand-painted ones available to researchers from
the Manuscripts Room of the British Library), must try to determine
for themselves. I apologize for being imprecise in my previous
description and hope this helps in keeping everything in perspective.
Hikaru
volumes which I referred to, nothing was done using actual color.
There was a code describing the use of certain lines drawn in certain
directions to indicate color, but this code was only used consistently
in the first part of the book, which was a four part anthology. The
representation of the seal (beautifully done, by the way) was in the
fourth part of the book which were Upton's notes. The black stars
could have represented any color. As for the size of the bars or
whatever, I am sure this was not meant to be taken with the same
exactness we would today. The 1654 illustration was meant to
beautifully reproduce a drawing found in a set of notes which seems to
have been written up in the 1450s. The notes, themselves, reproduce a
whole set of Clinton seals, in addition to that of Ida d'Oddingselles,
mostly from people having lived at various periods of the 14th
century. It is clear that Upton had to have had access to the Clinton
family muniment room in order to have made the selection he did for
his notes. The oldest of the seals reproduced in his notes was that of
Ida d'Oddingselles, but even that could have been made not very much
more than 150 years before Upton took his notes. All of the seals that
were drawn up in the notes were reproduced by the printer of the 1654
edition of the book equally as beautifully as the one for Ida
d'Oddingselles, though most certainly without the sense of preciseness
that would characterize modern heraldry, if only for the reason that
they were being taken from a set of notes and not from a manuscript
that had actually ever been intended for publication. As for color, I
am sure the original handwritten notes of Upton would not have
specified color, if only because the surviving impressions in wax left
by the 14th century seals and attached to the documents Upton would
have seen would, themselves, have offered Upton himself no indication
of color. This is something which scholars today, on the basis of
other descriptions found in medieval ordinaries (of which there are
some truly gorgeous hand-painted ones available to researchers from
the Manuscripts Room of the British Library), must try to determine
for themselves. I apologize for being imprecise in my previous
description and hope this helps in keeping everything in perspective.
Hikaru