Dear Newsgroup ~
In recent time I've learned that Sir John de Saint John (died 1302),
of Basing, Hampshire referred to Sir John de Segrave (died 1325), 2nd
Lord Segrave, as his cousin {"notre cosin"] in a letter dated 1298
[Reference: Joseph Stevenson, Documents illustrative of the History of
Scotland 2 (1870): 305-306]. A transcript of this letter may be
viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=O1oJAA ... #PPA305,M1
Studying the history of the two families, it appears a possible link
may be through the Lucy family. I find that John de Saint John's
paternal grandmother, Godeheut [?Paynel], married (2nd) after 1233 and
before 1243 a certain Richard de Lucy [see VCH Berkshire, 4 (1924):
238-242]. I likewise find that Sir John de Segrave's mother is
identified in an ancient Segrave pedigree as Maud de Lucy.
Inasmuch as Maud de Lucy's parentage has never been established, it
seems entirely possible that Maud might well be a daughter of Godeheut
[?Paynel]'s 2nd marriage to Richard de Lucy. If so, this would make
John de Saint John and Sir John de Segrave first cousins to one
another and provide a ready explanation for their kinship. This
matter deserves further study.
It should be noted that reference was made in an earlier post to
soc.medieval.genealogy back in 2003 to two records dated 1294, which
items indicate that Sir John de Saint John was himself styled "cousin"
by Edmund, Earl of Lancaster (younger son of King Henry III of
England). A copy of those items is provided below.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Foedera, 1 (1816): 793
Available online at Anglo-Norman On-line
http://and4.anglo-norman.net:8082/cgi-b ... dera1.xm...
A.D.1294
Esmon, filz du Roy Henri d'Engleterre, a son chier cousin mon sire
Johan de Seint Johan chevaler, tenant en la duchie de Guyenne, le lieu
de nostre treschere seigneur & frere, mon seigneur Edward, par la
grace de DIEU, Roy d'Engleterre, seignur d'Irland, & due de Guyenn' &
a sire Johan de Havering chevaler, seneschall de la dite duchie, & a
tous les autres seneschaus du dist nostre seigneur le Roy & duc, es
parties & es terres de la mesme duchie, saluz.
Sachiez que nous avons receheu, & veu les lettres overtes du dit
nostre seigneur le Roy, en la forme que s'ensuit:
Edward, par la grace de DIEU, Roy d'Engleterre, seignur d'Irland, &
due de Guyenne, a touz ceux qui cestes presentes lettres verront &
orront, saluz.
- - - - - - - - - -
Foedera, 1 (1816): 794
Available online at Anglo-Norman On-line
http://and4.anglo-norman.net:8082/cgi-b ... -prod/te...
A.D.1294
Esmon, filz du Roy Henri d'Engleterre, a son chier cousin, monsire
Johan de Saint Johan ehivaler, tenant en la duchee d'Acquitaine le
lieu de nostre treschere seigneur & frere Edward, par la grace de
DIEU, Roy d'Engleterre, seigneur d'Irland, & duc d'Aquitaine, saluz.
Les lettres overtes du dit nostre seigneur & frere nous avons receves,
& entendues en ceste forme:
Edward, par la grace de DIEU, Roi d'Engleterre, seigneur d'Irland, &
due de Guyenne, a touz ceaux qui cestes presentes lettres verront ou
orront, saluz.
Come Esmon, nostre chere frere, nous ait fait a savoir, que pleintes
sont venues, qe nostre seneschal, e autres de nos genz de Gascoigne,
eent fait plusors desobeisaunces, & plusours trespas a nostre
treschere seigneur & cousin le Roi de France, & a ces ministres, la
quel chose nous displet molt.
Nous, veillantz & desirantz que les choses soient adrescees & amendees
a son honeur & a sa volente, a cestes chose faire & acomplir;
Donos & ottroions plein poer a nostre frere avantdit par cestes
presentes lettres,
Et seur ce maundons & comandons a nostre seneschal, noz ministres, & a
noz autres gentz de la dite duchee, que, ces choses desus dites soient
obeissantz a nostre frere avantdit, & a son mandement ausint come a
nous mesmes.
En tesmoigne de queu nous avoms fet fere cestes lettres patentes
seales de nostre seal.
Done a Cantirbir', le primer jour du mois de Jenuer, l'an de Grace
MCCXCIII.
Et come li dit nostre sires Rois de France vuelle avoir en son arest,
& en sa prison de la gent du dicte nostre seigneur le Roi d'Engleterre
jusques a vint;
Et nous, par le poeir a nous donee es dites lettres, li aions promis
que nous les ferons avoir;
Nous vous mandons & commandons estreitement si chere, come vous amez
le bien du dit nostre seigneur & duc;
Que vous faites tant qee tuit cil, que li conestables vous nomers, des
seneschaux, baillis, & prevestz, sergentz, & autres officiaus du dit
nostre seigneur Roi & duc, jusques a vint, aillent en l'arrest, e en
la prison du dit seigneur Roi de France, e la ou li dit conestables
comandera, & ce ne lessiez en nule manere.
Don' a Paris, ...... de la Chandeleur, en l'an de nostre Seigneur
MCCXCIII.
Sir John de Saint John's cousin, Sir John de Segrave, 2nd Lo
Moderator: MOD_nyhetsgrupper
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Sir John de Saint John's cousin, Sir John de Segrave, 2n
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my post earlier this morning, for interest's sake, I
thought I would post a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants
who descend from Sir John de Saint John, of Basing, Hampshire, and
also a list of the immigrants who descend from his cousin, Sir John de
Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave.
1. Immigrants descended from Sir John de Saint John (died 1302), of
Basing, Hampshire, and his wife, Alice Fitz Reynold:
William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Jeremy Clarke, Anna
Cordray, Corderoy, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton,
Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William
Goddard, Anne Humphrey, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund
Jennings, Judith Knapp, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis,
Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John
Mansfield, Joseph & Mary Need, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson,
Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, George & Richard Parker, Herbert
Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, Edward
Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset,
John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, John West, Thomas Wingfield,
Hawte Wyatt, George Yate.
2. Immigrants descended from Sir John de Segrave (died 1325), 2nd Lord
Segrave, and his wife, Christian de Plescy:
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby,
Barbara Aubrey, Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, Essex
Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles,
Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles
Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy
Clarke, St.Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Henry Corbin, Elizabeth
Coytemore, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine
Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, Rowland Ellis, William Farrer,
John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Thomas Gerard,
William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston,
Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Daniel & John Humphrey, Matthew
Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon,
Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Oliver Manwaring, Anne & Katherine
Marbury, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph &
Mary Need, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Joshua & Rebecca Owen,
Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, Henry &
William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard,
Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Anthony Savage, William
Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman,
Samuel & William Torrey, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John
West, Thomas Wingfield, Mary Wolseley, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
As a followup to my post earlier this morning, for interest's sake, I
thought I would post a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants
who descend from Sir John de Saint John, of Basing, Hampshire, and
also a list of the immigrants who descend from his cousin, Sir John de
Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave.
1. Immigrants descended from Sir John de Saint John (died 1302), of
Basing, Hampshire, and his wife, Alice Fitz Reynold:
William Asfordby, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford,
William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth
Bosvile, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Jeremy Clarke, Anna
Cordray, Corderoy, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton,
Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, William
Goddard, Anne Humphrey, Francis, Martha, & William Iremonger, Edmund
Jennings, Judith Knapp, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis,
Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Anne, Elizabeth & John
Mansfield, Joseph & Mary Need, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson,
Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, George & Richard Parker, Herbert
Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, Edward
Raynsford, William Rodney, William Skepper, Mary Johanna Somerset,
John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, John West, Thomas Wingfield,
Hawte Wyatt, George Yate.
2. Immigrants descended from Sir John de Segrave (died 1325), 2nd Lord
Segrave, and his wife, Christian de Plescy:
Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby,
Barbara Aubrey, Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Dorothy Beresford, Essex
Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph Bolles,
Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Charles
Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy
Clarke, St.Leger Codd, James Cudworth, Henry Corbin, Elizabeth
Coytemore, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine
Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, Rowland Ellis, William Farrer,
John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete, Edward Foliot, Thomas Gerard,
William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston,
Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Daniel & John Humphrey, Matthew
Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon,
Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe,
Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne,
Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Oliver Manwaring, Anne & Katherine
Marbury, Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph &
Mary Need, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Joshua & Rebecca Owen,
Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, Henry &
William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard,
Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Anthony Savage, William
Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman,
Samuel & William Torrey, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John
West, Thomas Wingfield, Mary Wolseley, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Sir John de Saint John's cousin, Sir John de Segrave, 2n
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post on the kinship which existed between
Sir John de Saint John and Sir John de Segrave, I've checked further
regarding the Richard de Lucy, who was married to Sir John de Saint
John's grandmother, Godeheut [?Paynel]. This particular member of the
Lucy family is a bit elusive in the records. However, the following
appears to be a reference to him which I found in the book, Rolls of
Arms Henry III, edited by Thomas Daniel Tremlett and Hugh Stanford
London, published 1967 as Harleian Society Publications, Vols.
113-114.
On page 136 which concerns an early roll of arms called Glover's Roll,
Mr. London gives an entry for the arms of Geoffrey de Lucy as follows:
"Geoffrey de Lucy de gules od trois luces d'or.
(a) and (b) Three luces hauriant." END OF QUOTE.
Regarding the identification of this Geoffrey de Lucy, the following
information is provided by Mr. London in his notes:
"Geoffrey de Lucy, of Newington, Kent, d. 1252. His father Geoffrey
d. 1234, and his s. Geoffrey was dead before 5 June 1284. (CP viii.
257.)"
"B IV assigns the same arms to Richard de Lucy, probably brother of
Geoffrey who d. 1234. (CP VIII. 257 n. (c).) Moreover, as B IV draws
on an earlier source than B I and B II it is conceivable that Richard
was the elder s. and died before 1253, Geoffrey then taking the
undifferenced arms. C 134 seems to refer to a different branch." END
OF QUOTE.
The Geoffrey de Lucy whose arms are cited above in Glover's Roll
appears to be the second of six successive men named Geoffrey de
Lucy. This particular Geoffrey de Lucy was the great-grandson and
heir male of Sir Richard de Lucy, the well known Justiciar of England
under King Henry II. This Geoffrey de Lucy first occurs in the
records in 1234 and died in 1252. His wife's name was Nichole, whose
maiden name is not provided by Complete Peerage.
Complete Peerage makes no reference to the Richard de Lucy, living
1242-3, who married Godeheut [?Paynel], widow of William de Saint
John. However, I assume from Mr. London's comments that Mr. London
feels that he was a brother to the first Geoffrey de Lucy who died in
1234. However, given that the first Geoffrey de Lucy is known to have
married in 1207 and given that Richard de Lucy (husband of Godeheut)
may have been having children in the late 1230's or early 1240's, I
would have to place Richard de Lucy as the brother of the second
Geoffrey de Lucy who died in 1252. This reassignment of Richard de
Lucy in the family tree thus makes Richard a contemporary to the
second Geoffrey de Lucy which seems to be the case. It leaves
completely unresolved, however, whether or not this Richard de Lucy
and his wife, Godeheut, may have been the parents of Maud de Lucy,
wife of Sir Nicholas de Segrave, 1st Lord Segrave.
I might further note that Mr. London indicates that the source he
calls B IV includes references to both Richard de Lucy (husband of
Godeheut ?Paynel) and Robert de Saint John (son of Godeheut ?Paynel).
I would assume therefore that B IV dates from c. 1242-1250 time
period.
Regarding the identity of Nichole, wife of the second Geoffrey de
Lucy, Complete Peerage says only that she was a widow when he married
her and that she had Thornton in dower. It cites the following
sources: Calendar Close Rolls, 1234-1237, pg. 339, 1237-1232, pg. 95.
A clue to Nichole de Lucy's first husband, however, is afforded us by
Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 16, which covers the period, 1237-1242. On
page 432, there is a record of an assize which was called to determine
who had the right to present to the church of Coningsby, Lincolnshire,
which the abbot of Hales claimed against William de Cantelowe and
Geoffrey de Lucy and his wife, Nichole. The abbot gave testimiony
that the last person to present to the church was Robert Marmion the
old ["senex] (presumably the Robert Marmion who died in or before
1218). According to the abbot, Robert Marmion presented his son,
William Marmion, to the church. After the presentation was made, the
elder Robert Marmion gave the manor of Coningsby to Robert his [elder]
son, who in turn gave the manor to Hales Abbey.
At this point, William, guardian of Philip Marmion, son and heir of
Robert Marmion [and thus grandson of Robert the old] testified that
Geoffrey de Lucy and Nichole his wife held noithing in Coningsby in
the way of dower. Although no further comment is made regarding
Nichole's claim to the presentation of the church, it seems possible
that she was the widow of the younger Robert Marmion who was Philip
Marmion's father, which Robert allegedly died c.1242. Nichole in fact
is so identified by Gerald Paget as the widow of the younger Robert
Marmion in his massive work, Baronage of England (1957), Family #355.
Mr. Paget gives no source for this identification, however. To
counter this identification of Nichole de Lucy's first husband, I note
that Nichole married her second husband Geoffrey de Lucy before 3 Dec.
1235, whereas Robert Marmion the younger is stated by Paget to have
been living in 1241. If these dates are correct, then Nichole can not
have married the younger Robert Marmion.
That Nichole de Lucy and her husband, Geoffrey de Lucy, were summoned
to appear with William de Cantelowe suggests the possibility to me
that Nichole may herself have been a Cantelowe by birth. This would
make sense as Complete Peerage states that Nichole de Lucy's four Lucy
children were brought up at court, and we know that both William de
Cantelowe, Sr. (died 1239) and William de Cantelowe, Jr. (died 1251)
were stewards of the King's household. Also, I note that Agnes de
Cantelowe, daughter of William de Cantelowe, Jr., married Robert de
Saint John, step-son of Richard de Lucy. So we are brought full
circle back to the same nest of families.
The surname of William, guardian of Philip Marmion, is not given in
the account provided by Curia Regis Rolls. However, it seems likely
to me from the wording of the text that the guardian of Philip Marmion
was William de Cantelowe, who was summoned to appear with Nichole and
Geoffrey de Lucy. If William de Cantelowe was the father of Nichole
de Lucy, and if Nichole was the mother of Philip Marmion, then William
de Cantelow would have been guardian to his own grandson.
If Maud de Lucy, wife of Sir Nicholas de Segrave, was the daughter of
Geoffrey and Nichole de Lucy, and if Nichole de Lucy was the daughter
of William de Cantelowe, Jr. (died 1251) and his wife, Milicent de
Gournay, then John de Saint John would have been a first cousin once
removed to Maud de Lucy's son, Sir John de Segrave. This would
explain the kinship between the Saint John and Segrave families.
The proposed kinship is charted below:
1. Sir William de Cantelowe, died 1251, married 1st, 1215/6, Milicent
de Gournay, Countess of Evreux.
2. Agnes de Cantelowe, married Robert de Saint John, died 1266.
3. Sir John de Saint John, born by 1245, died 1302.
1. William de Cantelowe, died 1251, married 1st, 1215/6, Milicent de
Gournay, Countess of Evreux.
2. Nichole de Cantelowe, married (2nd) by 1235 Geoffrey de Lucy, died
1252.
3. Maud de Lucy, born say 1240/5, married Sir Nicholas de Segrave, 1st
Lord Segrave, died 1295.
4. Sir John de Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave, born say 1260/5, died 1325.
The above arrangement of the Segrave family would open up a massive
amount of new ancestry for that family. This matter deserves further
study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
As a followup to my original post on the kinship which existed between
Sir John de Saint John and Sir John de Segrave, I've checked further
regarding the Richard de Lucy, who was married to Sir John de Saint
John's grandmother, Godeheut [?Paynel]. This particular member of the
Lucy family is a bit elusive in the records. However, the following
appears to be a reference to him which I found in the book, Rolls of
Arms Henry III, edited by Thomas Daniel Tremlett and Hugh Stanford
London, published 1967 as Harleian Society Publications, Vols.
113-114.
On page 136 which concerns an early roll of arms called Glover's Roll,
Mr. London gives an entry for the arms of Geoffrey de Lucy as follows:
"Geoffrey de Lucy de gules od trois luces d'or.
(a) and (b) Three luces hauriant." END OF QUOTE.
Regarding the identification of this Geoffrey de Lucy, the following
information is provided by Mr. London in his notes:
"Geoffrey de Lucy, of Newington, Kent, d. 1252. His father Geoffrey
d. 1234, and his s. Geoffrey was dead before 5 June 1284. (CP viii.
257.)"
"B IV assigns the same arms to Richard de Lucy, probably brother of
Geoffrey who d. 1234. (CP VIII. 257 n. (c).) Moreover, as B IV draws
on an earlier source than B I and B II it is conceivable that Richard
was the elder s. and died before 1253, Geoffrey then taking the
undifferenced arms. C 134 seems to refer to a different branch." END
OF QUOTE.
The Geoffrey de Lucy whose arms are cited above in Glover's Roll
appears to be the second of six successive men named Geoffrey de
Lucy. This particular Geoffrey de Lucy was the great-grandson and
heir male of Sir Richard de Lucy, the well known Justiciar of England
under King Henry II. This Geoffrey de Lucy first occurs in the
records in 1234 and died in 1252. His wife's name was Nichole, whose
maiden name is not provided by Complete Peerage.
Complete Peerage makes no reference to the Richard de Lucy, living
1242-3, who married Godeheut [?Paynel], widow of William de Saint
John. However, I assume from Mr. London's comments that Mr. London
feels that he was a brother to the first Geoffrey de Lucy who died in
1234. However, given that the first Geoffrey de Lucy is known to have
married in 1207 and given that Richard de Lucy (husband of Godeheut)
may have been having children in the late 1230's or early 1240's, I
would have to place Richard de Lucy as the brother of the second
Geoffrey de Lucy who died in 1252. This reassignment of Richard de
Lucy in the family tree thus makes Richard a contemporary to the
second Geoffrey de Lucy which seems to be the case. It leaves
completely unresolved, however, whether or not this Richard de Lucy
and his wife, Godeheut, may have been the parents of Maud de Lucy,
wife of Sir Nicholas de Segrave, 1st Lord Segrave.
I might further note that Mr. London indicates that the source he
calls B IV includes references to both Richard de Lucy (husband of
Godeheut ?Paynel) and Robert de Saint John (son of Godeheut ?Paynel).
I would assume therefore that B IV dates from c. 1242-1250 time
period.
Regarding the identity of Nichole, wife of the second Geoffrey de
Lucy, Complete Peerage says only that she was a widow when he married
her and that she had Thornton in dower. It cites the following
sources: Calendar Close Rolls, 1234-1237, pg. 339, 1237-1232, pg. 95.
A clue to Nichole de Lucy's first husband, however, is afforded us by
Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 16, which covers the period, 1237-1242. On
page 432, there is a record of an assize which was called to determine
who had the right to present to the church of Coningsby, Lincolnshire,
which the abbot of Hales claimed against William de Cantelowe and
Geoffrey de Lucy and his wife, Nichole. The abbot gave testimiony
that the last person to present to the church was Robert Marmion the
old ["senex] (presumably the Robert Marmion who died in or before
1218). According to the abbot, Robert Marmion presented his son,
William Marmion, to the church. After the presentation was made, the
elder Robert Marmion gave the manor of Coningsby to Robert his [elder]
son, who in turn gave the manor to Hales Abbey.
At this point, William, guardian of Philip Marmion, son and heir of
Robert Marmion [and thus grandson of Robert the old] testified that
Geoffrey de Lucy and Nichole his wife held noithing in Coningsby in
the way of dower. Although no further comment is made regarding
Nichole's claim to the presentation of the church, it seems possible
that she was the widow of the younger Robert Marmion who was Philip
Marmion's father, which Robert allegedly died c.1242. Nichole in fact
is so identified by Gerald Paget as the widow of the younger Robert
Marmion in his massive work, Baronage of England (1957), Family #355.
Mr. Paget gives no source for this identification, however. To
counter this identification of Nichole de Lucy's first husband, I note
that Nichole married her second husband Geoffrey de Lucy before 3 Dec.
1235, whereas Robert Marmion the younger is stated by Paget to have
been living in 1241. If these dates are correct, then Nichole can not
have married the younger Robert Marmion.
That Nichole de Lucy and her husband, Geoffrey de Lucy, were summoned
to appear with William de Cantelowe suggests the possibility to me
that Nichole may herself have been a Cantelowe by birth. This would
make sense as Complete Peerage states that Nichole de Lucy's four Lucy
children were brought up at court, and we know that both William de
Cantelowe, Sr. (died 1239) and William de Cantelowe, Jr. (died 1251)
were stewards of the King's household. Also, I note that Agnes de
Cantelowe, daughter of William de Cantelowe, Jr., married Robert de
Saint John, step-son of Richard de Lucy. So we are brought full
circle back to the same nest of families.
The surname of William, guardian of Philip Marmion, is not given in
the account provided by Curia Regis Rolls. However, it seems likely
to me from the wording of the text that the guardian of Philip Marmion
was William de Cantelowe, who was summoned to appear with Nichole and
Geoffrey de Lucy. If William de Cantelowe was the father of Nichole
de Lucy, and if Nichole was the mother of Philip Marmion, then William
de Cantelow would have been guardian to his own grandson.
If Maud de Lucy, wife of Sir Nicholas de Segrave, was the daughter of
Geoffrey and Nichole de Lucy, and if Nichole de Lucy was the daughter
of William de Cantelowe, Jr. (died 1251) and his wife, Milicent de
Gournay, then John de Saint John would have been a first cousin once
removed to Maud de Lucy's son, Sir John de Segrave. This would
explain the kinship between the Saint John and Segrave families.
The proposed kinship is charted below:
1. Sir William de Cantelowe, died 1251, married 1st, 1215/6, Milicent
de Gournay, Countess of Evreux.
2. Agnes de Cantelowe, married Robert de Saint John, died 1266.
3. Sir John de Saint John, born by 1245, died 1302.
1. William de Cantelowe, died 1251, married 1st, 1215/6, Milicent de
Gournay, Countess of Evreux.
2. Nichole de Cantelowe, married (2nd) by 1235 Geoffrey de Lucy, died
1252.
3. Maud de Lucy, born say 1240/5, married Sir Nicholas de Segrave, 1st
Lord Segrave, died 1295.
4. Sir John de Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave, born say 1260/5, died 1325.
The above arrangement of the Segrave family would open up a massive
amount of new ancestry for that family. This matter deserves further
study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
-
Douglas Richardson
Re: Sir John de Saint John's cousin, Sir John de Segrave, 2n
Dear Newsgroup ~
Regarding the identity of the first husband of Nichole, wife of
Geoffrey de Lucy, as I indicated in my previous post, it appears that
she was almost certainly married first to a male member of the Marmion
family of Lincolnshire. We can know that for two reasons.
First, Nichole de Lucy is known to have been assigned the manor of
Thornton by Horncastle, Lincolnshire in dower in 1235. Complete
Peerage sub Lucy cites the following source for her dower: Calendar
Close Rolls, 1234-1237, pg. 339; Calendar of Close Rolls, 1237-1232,
pg. 95. The manor of Thornton by Horncastle was anciently a fee held
by the Marmion family of Scrivelsby, Lincolnshire. In 1218 Robert
Marmion the old [senex], head of the family in England, died. At the
time of his death, he was survived by his 2nd wife, Philippe, and by
three sons, Robert (son of his 1st wife Maud de Beauchamp), a second
Robert, and William, the latter two of which were children of his 2nd
wife, Philippe. To make matters simple, I will refer to Robert
Marmion the old as Robert Marmion 1. His eldest son and heir I will
call Robert Marmion 2. And the younger son named Robert I will called
Robert Marmion 3. In 1218 the king assigned Robert Marmion 3 various
family manors in England to hold until his older half-brother Robert
Marmion 2 should make his peace with the king. The vill of Thornton
by Horncastle, Lincolnshire was likewise assigned to the Robert
Marmion 3's brother, William Marmion, clerk, together with ten
librates of land in Berwick, Sussex [Reference: Complete Peerage, 8
(1932): 515, footnote a]. In 1220 Robert Marmion 2 returned to
England and the lands of his father Robert Marmion 1 were restored to
him [Reference: Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 510]. In 1226-1228 it was
reported that the Earl of Chester had the land in Thornton by
Horncastle, Lincolnshire which had been held by William Marmion [the
priest] [Reference: Book of Fees, 1 (1920): 362]. At this point,
Thornton by Horncastle appears to have been re-assigned to Robert
Marmion 2, as eldest son and heir of Robert Mamion 1. The manor of
Thornton was subsequently in the possession of the heir of Robert
Marmion 2, namely Philip Dymoke, in 1431 [Reference: Feudal Aids, 3
(1904): 342].
Given that the manor of Thornton presumably came back to Robert
Marmion 2, it seems likely that the first husband of Nichole, wife of
Geoffrey de Lucy, was either Robert Marmion 2 or one of his sons.
I've studied the charter evidence of Robert Marmion 2 presented in
Complete Peerage, Vol.8 (sub Marmion) and in the book, The Ancestry of
Thomas Bradbury, by John Brooks Threlfall, 2nd edition, 1995, pp.
337-342. These works indicate that Robert Marmion 2 married before
1226 Juliane de Vassy, daughter of Philippe de Vassy [Reference:
Société des Antiquaires de Normandie, Vol. 7, pg. 56, No. 96].
Juliane, wife of Robert Marmion, was still living in 1236, when her
husband with her consent made a grant to Aunay Abbey [Reference:
Société des Antiquaires de Normandie, Vol. 7, pg. 58]. Inasmuch as
Robert Marmion was still marriied to Juliane de Vassy in 1236, which
is a year after the date Nichole de Lucy was assigned dower in
Thornton by Horncastle, it is obvious that Nichole can't have married
Robert Marmion 2. However,.in 1233, I note that Robert Marmion 2 made
provisions for the marriage of his "son and heir," Philip, he granting
custody and the marriage of that son to the Bishop of Winchester for a
term of seven years. I believe Philip was a very young child when
these arrangements were made in 1233. Although Complete Peerage does
not state when this next event occurred, Philip Marmion's marriage was
subsequently granted for a term of three years to William de Cauntelo
[Reference: Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 510 (sub Marmion)]. Curia
Regis Rolls, Vol. 16, pg. 432 indicates that William de Cauntelo also
held Philip Marmion's wardship, but we are not told this fact by
Complete Peerage. Philip Marmion was clearly still under age in
1243-4, when his guardian, William de Cauntelo, presented to the
church of Coningsby, Lincolnshire [Reference: Grosseteste, Rotuli
Roberti Grosseteste Episcopi Lincolniensis (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 11)
(1914): 67]. Philip's age can probably be determined even more
exactly, as I noticed that William de Cauntelo also presented to the
churches of Haltham on Bain and Roughton in this same time period,
both of which he would have held in right of his wardship of Philip
Marmion. Philip Marmion eventually grew to adulthood and married Joan
de Kilpeck, younger daughter of Hugh de Kilpeck. More than likely
Philip Marmion came of age in 1249 when charters of free warren
granted to an ancestor were confirmed to him. If so, this would
suggest that Philip Marmion was born about 1228, and certainly no
earlier than 1223. This would make him 10 years old or less when his
father granted his marriage to the Bishop of Winchester.
The second reason we can know that Nichole de Lucy was married to a
member of the Marmion family is because she and her second husband,
Geoffrey de Lucy, were summoned with William de Cauntelo, guardian of
Philip Marmion, to answer the abbot of Hales regarding the
presentation of the church of Coningsby, Lincolnshire, a Marmion
holding. The case was decided in favor of William de Cauntelo, and as
noted above, he presented to the church of Coningsby in 1242-3.
William de Cauntelo stated that Nichole de Lucy held nothing in
Coningsby in the way of dower, suggesting that her first husband's
family had an interest in the advowson of Coningsby. This can only
have been the family of Robert Marmion 2, who obtained the manor of
Coningsby from his half-brother, Robert Marmion 3, when he returned to
England and made his peace with the king.
Reviewing the above, it is apparent that Nichole de Lucy was married
(1st) to a Marmion. Examinng the possibilities, it seems probable
that Nichole married an older unnamed minor son of Robert Marmion 2
that died in young adulthood in or before 1233. Nichole need not have
consumated her marriage to the Marmion boy for her to have been
awarded dower in 1235. We have shown that Nichole can not have
married either Robert Mamion 2 or his son and heir, Philip Marmion.
And Nichole clearly was not married to either of Robert Marmion 2's
half brothers, Roibert Marmion 3 or William Marmion the priest.
At the present time, I have no direct evidence that Nichole de Lucy
was a daughter of William de Cauntelo as I proposed in my last post.
However, such a parentage would make sense, as it would explain the
later known kinship which existed between Nichole's probable grandson,
Sir John de Segrave, and William de Cauntelo's grandson, Sir John de
Saint John. This matter deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Nov 30, 11:54 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Regarding the identity of the first husband of Nichole, wife of
Geoffrey de Lucy, as I indicated in my previous post, it appears that
she was almost certainly married first to a male member of the Marmion
family of Lincolnshire. We can know that for two reasons.
First, Nichole de Lucy is known to have been assigned the manor of
Thornton by Horncastle, Lincolnshire in dower in 1235. Complete
Peerage sub Lucy cites the following source for her dower: Calendar
Close Rolls, 1234-1237, pg. 339; Calendar of Close Rolls, 1237-1232,
pg. 95. The manor of Thornton by Horncastle was anciently a fee held
by the Marmion family of Scrivelsby, Lincolnshire. In 1218 Robert
Marmion the old [senex], head of the family in England, died. At the
time of his death, he was survived by his 2nd wife, Philippe, and by
three sons, Robert (son of his 1st wife Maud de Beauchamp), a second
Robert, and William, the latter two of which were children of his 2nd
wife, Philippe. To make matters simple, I will refer to Robert
Marmion the old as Robert Marmion 1. His eldest son and heir I will
call Robert Marmion 2. And the younger son named Robert I will called
Robert Marmion 3. In 1218 the king assigned Robert Marmion 3 various
family manors in England to hold until his older half-brother Robert
Marmion 2 should make his peace with the king. The vill of Thornton
by Horncastle, Lincolnshire was likewise assigned to the Robert
Marmion 3's brother, William Marmion, clerk, together with ten
librates of land in Berwick, Sussex [Reference: Complete Peerage, 8
(1932): 515, footnote a]. In 1220 Robert Marmion 2 returned to
England and the lands of his father Robert Marmion 1 were restored to
him [Reference: Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 510]. In 1226-1228 it was
reported that the Earl of Chester had the land in Thornton by
Horncastle, Lincolnshire which had been held by William Marmion [the
priest] [Reference: Book of Fees, 1 (1920): 362]. At this point,
Thornton by Horncastle appears to have been re-assigned to Robert
Marmion 2, as eldest son and heir of Robert Mamion 1. The manor of
Thornton was subsequently in the possession of the heir of Robert
Marmion 2, namely Philip Dymoke, in 1431 [Reference: Feudal Aids, 3
(1904): 342].
Given that the manor of Thornton presumably came back to Robert
Marmion 2, it seems likely that the first husband of Nichole, wife of
Geoffrey de Lucy, was either Robert Marmion 2 or one of his sons.
I've studied the charter evidence of Robert Marmion 2 presented in
Complete Peerage, Vol.8 (sub Marmion) and in the book, The Ancestry of
Thomas Bradbury, by John Brooks Threlfall, 2nd edition, 1995, pp.
337-342. These works indicate that Robert Marmion 2 married before
1226 Juliane de Vassy, daughter of Philippe de Vassy [Reference:
Société des Antiquaires de Normandie, Vol. 7, pg. 56, No. 96].
Juliane, wife of Robert Marmion, was still living in 1236, when her
husband with her consent made a grant to Aunay Abbey [Reference:
Société des Antiquaires de Normandie, Vol. 7, pg. 58]. Inasmuch as
Robert Marmion was still marriied to Juliane de Vassy in 1236, which
is a year after the date Nichole de Lucy was assigned dower in
Thornton by Horncastle, it is obvious that Nichole can't have married
Robert Marmion 2. However,.in 1233, I note that Robert Marmion 2 made
provisions for the marriage of his "son and heir," Philip, he granting
custody and the marriage of that son to the Bishop of Winchester for a
term of seven years. I believe Philip was a very young child when
these arrangements were made in 1233. Although Complete Peerage does
not state when this next event occurred, Philip Marmion's marriage was
subsequently granted for a term of three years to William de Cauntelo
[Reference: Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 510 (sub Marmion)]. Curia
Regis Rolls, Vol. 16, pg. 432 indicates that William de Cauntelo also
held Philip Marmion's wardship, but we are not told this fact by
Complete Peerage. Philip Marmion was clearly still under age in
1243-4, when his guardian, William de Cauntelo, presented to the
church of Coningsby, Lincolnshire [Reference: Grosseteste, Rotuli
Roberti Grosseteste Episcopi Lincolniensis (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 11)
(1914): 67]. Philip's age can probably be determined even more
exactly, as I noticed that William de Cauntelo also presented to the
churches of Haltham on Bain and Roughton in this same time period,
both of which he would have held in right of his wardship of Philip
Marmion. Philip Marmion eventually grew to adulthood and married Joan
de Kilpeck, younger daughter of Hugh de Kilpeck. More than likely
Philip Marmion came of age in 1249 when charters of free warren
granted to an ancestor were confirmed to him. If so, this would
suggest that Philip Marmion was born about 1228, and certainly no
earlier than 1223. This would make him 10 years old or less when his
father granted his marriage to the Bishop of Winchester.
The second reason we can know that Nichole de Lucy was married to a
member of the Marmion family is because she and her second husband,
Geoffrey de Lucy, were summoned with William de Cauntelo, guardian of
Philip Marmion, to answer the abbot of Hales regarding the
presentation of the church of Coningsby, Lincolnshire, a Marmion
holding. The case was decided in favor of William de Cauntelo, and as
noted above, he presented to the church of Coningsby in 1242-3.
William de Cauntelo stated that Nichole de Lucy held nothing in
Coningsby in the way of dower, suggesting that her first husband's
family had an interest in the advowson of Coningsby. This can only
have been the family of Robert Marmion 2, who obtained the manor of
Coningsby from his half-brother, Robert Marmion 3, when he returned to
England and made his peace with the king.
Reviewing the above, it is apparent that Nichole de Lucy was married
(1st) to a Marmion. Examinng the possibilities, it seems probable
that Nichole married an older unnamed minor son of Robert Marmion 2
that died in young adulthood in or before 1233. Nichole need not have
consumated her marriage to the Marmion boy for her to have been
awarded dower in 1235. We have shown that Nichole can not have
married either Robert Mamion 2 or his son and heir, Philip Marmion.
And Nichole clearly was not married to either of Robert Marmion 2's
half brothers, Roibert Marmion 3 or William Marmion the priest.
At the present time, I have no direct evidence that Nichole de Lucy
was a daughter of William de Cauntelo as I proposed in my last post.
However, such a parentage would make sense, as it would explain the
later known kinship which existed between Nichole's probable grandson,
Sir John de Segrave, and William de Cauntelo's grandson, Sir John de
Saint John. This matter deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Nov 30, 11:54 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Dear Newsgroup ~
As a followup to my original post on the kinship which existed between
Sir John de Saint John and Sir John de Segrave, I've checked further
regarding the Richard de Lucy, who was married to Sir John de Saint
John's grandmother, Godeheut [?Paynel]. This particular member of the
Lucy family is a bit elusive in the records. However, the following
appears to be a reference to him which I found in the book, Rolls of
Arms Henry III, edited by Thomas Daniel Tremlett and Hugh Stanford
London, published 1967 as Harleian Society Publications, Vols.
113-114.
On page 136 which concerns an early roll of arms called Glover's Roll,
Mr. London gives an entry for the arms of Geoffrey de Lucy as follows:
"Geoffrey de Lucy de gules od trois luces d'or.
(a) and (b) Three luces hauriant." END OF QUOTE.
Regarding the identification of this Geoffrey de Lucy, the following
information is provided by Mr. London in his notes:
"Geoffrey de Lucy, of Newington, Kent, d. 1252. His father Geoffrey
d. 1234, and his s. Geoffrey was dead before 5 June 1284. (CP viii.
257.)"
"B IV assigns the same arms to Richard de Lucy, probably brother of
Geoffrey who d. 1234. (CP VIII. 257 n. (c).) Moreover, as B IV draws
on an earlier source than B I and B II it is conceivable that Richard
was the elder s. and died before 1253, Geoffrey then taking the
undifferenced arms. C 134 seems to refer to a different branch." END
OF QUOTE.
The Geoffrey de Lucy whose arms are cited above in Glover's Roll
appears to be the second of six successive men named Geoffrey de
Lucy. This particular Geoffrey de Lucy was the great-grandson and
heir male of Sir Richard de Lucy, the well known Justiciar of England
under King Henry II. This Geoffrey de Lucy first occurs in the
records in 1234 and died in 1252. His wife's name was Nichole, whose
maiden name is not provided by Complete Peerage.
Complete Peerage makes no reference to the Richard de Lucy, living
1242-3, who married Godeheut [?Paynel], widow of William de Saint
John. However, I assume from Mr. London's comments that Mr. London
feels that he was a brother to the first Geoffrey de Lucy who died in
1234. However, given that the first Geoffrey de Lucy is known to have
married in 1207 and given that Richard de Lucy (husband of Godeheut)
may have been having children in the late 1230's or early 1240's, I
would have to place Richard de Lucy as the brother of the second
Geoffrey de Lucy who died in 1252. This reassignment of Richard de
Lucy in the family tree thus makes Richard a contemporary to the
second Geoffrey de Lucy which seems to be the case. It leaves
completely unresolved, however, whether or not this Richard de Lucy
and his wife, Godeheut, may have been the parents of Maud de Lucy,
wife of Sir Nicholas de Segrave, 1st Lord Segrave.
I might further note that Mr. London indicates that the source he
calls B IV includes references to both Richard de Lucy (husband of
Godeheut ?Paynel) and Robert de Saint John (son of Godeheut ?Paynel).
I would assume therefore that B IV dates from c. 1242-1250 time
period.
Regarding the identity of Nichole, wife of the second Geoffrey de
Lucy, Complete Peerage says only that she was a widow when he married
her and that she had Thornton in dower. It cites the following
sources: Calendar Close Rolls, 1234-1237, pg. 339, 1237-1232, pg. 95.
A clue to Nichole de Lucy's first husband, however, is afforded us by
Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 16, which covers the period, 1237-1242. On
page 432, there is a record of an assize which was called to determine
who had the right to present to the church of Coningsby, Lincolnshire,
which the abbot of Hales claimed against William de Cantelowe and
Geoffrey de Lucy and his wife, Nichole. The abbot gave testimiony
that the last person to present to the church was Robert Marmion the
old ["senex] (presumably the Robert Marmion who died in or before
1218). According to the abbot, Robert Marmion presented his son,
William Marmion, to the church. After the presentation was made, the
elder Robert Marmion gave the manor of Coningsby to Robert his [elder]
son, who in turn gave the manor to Hales Abbey.
At this point, William, guardian of Philip Marmion, son and heir of
Robert Marmion [and thus grandson of Robert the old] testified that
Geoffrey de Lucy and Nichole his wife held noithing in Coningsby in
the way of dower. Although no further comment is made regarding
Nichole's claim to the presentation of the church, it seems possible
that she was the widow of the younger Robert Marmion who was Philip
Marmion's father, which Robert allegedly died c.1242. Nichole in fact
is so identified by Gerald Paget as the widow of the younger Robert
Marmion in his massive work, Baronage of England (1957), Family #355.
Mr. Paget gives no source for this identification, however. To
counter this identification of Nichole de Lucy's first husband, I note
that Nichole married her second husband Geoffrey de Lucy before 3 Dec.
1235, whereas Robert Marmion the younger is stated by Paget to have
been living in 1241. If these dates are correct, then Nichole can not
have married the younger Robert Marmion.
That Nichole de Lucy and her husband, Geoffrey de Lucy, were summoned
to appear with William de Cantelowe suggests the possibility to me
that Nichole may herself have been a Cantelowe by birth. This would
make sense as Complete Peerage states that Nichole de Lucy's four Lucy
children were brought up at court, and we know that both William de
Cantelowe, Sr. (died 1239) and William de Cantelowe, Jr. (died 1251)
were stewards of the King's household. Also, I note that Agnes de
Cantelowe, daughter of William de Cantelowe, Jr., married Robert de
Saint John, step-son of Richard de Lucy. So we are brought full
circle back to the same nest of families.
The surname of William, guardian of Philip Marmion, is not given in
the account provided by Curia Regis Rolls. However, it seems likely
to me from the wording of the text that the guardian of Philip Marmion
was William de Cantelowe, who was summoned to appear with Nichole and
Geoffrey de Lucy. If William de Cantelowe was the father of Nichole
de Lucy, and if Nichole was the mother of Philip Marmion, then William
de Cantelow would have been guardian to his own grandson.
If Maud de Lucy, wife of Sir Nicholas de Segrave, was the daughter of
Geoffrey and Nichole de Lucy, and if Nichole de Lucy was the daughter
of William de Cantelowe, Jr. (died 1251) and his wife, Milicent de
Gournay, then John de Saint John would have been a first cousin once
removed to Maud de Lucy's son, Sir John de Segrave. This would
explain the kinship between the Saint John and Segrave families.
The proposed kinship is charted below:
1. Sir William de Cantelowe, died 1251, married 1st, 1215/6, Milicent
de Gournay, Countess of Evreux.
2. Agnes de Cantelowe, married Robert de Saint John, died 1266.
3. Sir John de Saint John, born by 1245, died 1302.
1. William de Cantelowe, died 1251, married 1st, 1215/6, Milicent de
Gournay, Countess of Evreux.
2. Nichole de Cantelowe, married (2nd) by 1235 Geoffrey de Lucy, died
1252.
3. Maud de Lucy, born say 1240/5, married Sir Nicholas de Segrave, 1st
Lord Segrave, died 1295.
4. Sir John de Segrave, 2nd Lord Segrave, born say 1260/5, died 1325.
The above arrangement of the Segrave family would open up a massive
amount of new ancestry for that family. This matter deserves further
study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah